Do Narcissists Plan Their Manipulations?

162 thoughts on “Do Narcissists Plan Their Manipulations?

  1. Teenz says:

    What about instant premeditated manipulation? For example, mine abandoned me 6 months ago, saying I was overthinking and suspicious like his ex (very convenient, disabled me from questioning anything that did not add up). The last time I saw him he had said how nice it would be shower with me and what he’d do. When he came to my house he refused a shower with me. I thought this strange and hurtful, amongst the other hurtful critical things he said that day(and I became suspicious, then degenerated into self blame and apology)… He recently hoovered me, told me to come to see him, a 2 hour drive, at midnight after I’d just finished a 12hr shift at work. I said I haven’t showered yet or anything, he said I don’t care, come and have one with me. I said, that means a lot, because you refused the last time we were together, he said, well I’m saying yes now…So stupidly I ran to him. Soon as I got to the door of his hotel room, he grabbed me, kissed me told me to come straight to bed. I noticed there was no bathroom in the room. In the morning he said get up babe, do you want a shower? I said together right? He said, well we can’t you see, the showers are outside and separate, male female, it’s impossible…. this had to be planned disappointment and hurtful intent manipulation.

  2. BC30 says:

    There are a lot of narcs among us. I try to ignore the most provocative and nonsensical comments. Don’t feed the trolls. A… lot… of narcs among us.

    I dated a guy for a hot minute who posted ONE roll of TOILET PAPER for sale at an absurdly inflated price. He thought it was funny and loved the attention and arguing with people about it. I thought he was an idiot.

    Several months after I ghosted him, he zombied* asking me out to dinner as if nothing happened. I now realize he is a total narc.


  3. lindseymarie says:

    It’s been a big part of my healing process to understand most don’t go around intentionally manipulating people. That took time to let it sink in.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Good, well done and it is liberating when you do realise this and it sinks in.

  4. Another Cat says:


    “I see HG has commented that for the narcissist it is a very swift self defence mechanism that comes into play. In that sense it is ‘unconscious’ for them.”

    Yes, it’s in the moment isn’t it. Every new word in the sentence is a new manipulation, so they would have only 1/2 microsecond to “plan ” a manipulation. They can do it during very stressful everyday situations when the dialog is fast-talk. Like kids.

    “…. thanks, yes, put it over here in the pan, you’re ugly, and a couple of milk spoons with that, that piece of corn looks like your yellow tooth.”

    Midranger continues: “… are you dating my friend, you say? Why haven’t you told me? You are making me rather sad. ”
    Nonnarc: “No, you have asked this 21 times now. I have told you 21 times. It is a completely different person. Not your friend.”
    Midranger: “But it’s Eric you know!”
    Nonnarc: “He has nothing to do with your friend Eric, who happens to be a namesake. Do you want me to state this a 22nd time?”

    (Nonnarc sometimes wonders if her friend has dementia, even though the friend is only 29 yrs)

    Narcs can operate in twitch speed in conversations, which is fast as lightning. They put two insulting words in the middle of a sentence. Because at some point in childhood they needed to be this quick. Takes an extreme toll on the other person’s life. We think they planned to compose these very insults for days, because for us it would do so. Sometimes we think they react to feeling stress, which is in part true. But it’s not us causing it, as we learnt from HG. Not at all. It’s their childhood.

    I understand though that Greaters don’t do much of this highly annoying crap.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Well articulated.

      1. Another Cat says:

        Thank you HG.

        The more I read your work the more I understand that empathy takes heaps of energy from our brains and bodies.

        1. BC30 says:

          What do you mean “empathy takes heaps of energy from our brains and bodies”?

          1. Another Cat says:

            I’m glad you asked BC30

            Narcissists seem to have lots of strength to do things, their whole body language is so confident. Many of them (also women) toned, wide shoulders.

            Their brains/bodies don’t spend energy on empathy, they cheat their ways to make others work for them.

            If I see an older person with perfect symmetrical nonworn features that’s a bit of a red flag for me. This is someone who might have made others do empathic work for them.

  5. Whitney says:

    Making someone love you and breaking their heart is the worst thing you can do to someone.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I can think of a many worse things, Whitney.

    2. burntkrispykeen says:

      I think that I understand what you mean here, Whitney. For an empathic person, it is one of the worst things to endure. It is similar to a child who would rather receive a spanking… an actual physical beating, than to be ignored… to feel as if he/she let down a beloved parent. Some wounds simply hurt more than others.
      There are so many horrible things humans can do to one another, but it is a bit different for us. No woman wants to be physically assaulted. But if someone were to attack me, I’d instinctively close my fist. The adrenaline rush would prevail, and despite empaths often being perceived as passive, many of us would find ourselves fighting back. Certainly, anger would quickly follow, and we might be left stunned and hurt, but the bruises would heal. But if a man manipulates us into truly believing in him (whether he does so through planning or instinct) and he gets us to open our hearts to him, that is a rare occurrence.
      Most truly empathic people regard intimate love as a sacred entity. So to be fooled into believing that we are loved when we are not… that breaks our spirit. How does one get that back?
      For some, healing takes a lifetime. Nobody deserves that.

      1. Teenz says:

        Totally agree Burntkrispykeen, annihilation of the spirit and heart is the worst pain. Like dying but knowing you are still alive. Pain by physical means is tangible at least.

  6. Another Cat says:

    I believe that what once and for all made me understand that Midrangers don’t sit around and plan and think of me,

    is that what I thought was a long long campaign against me, suddenly ended cold turkey when I took precautions to my incomplete no contact, improved it, chiselled it so I stopped mentioning him to any other person.

    The ‘The Narcissist And Threats’ audio also helped.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Good to read.

  7. Another Cat says:

    We give them more hoover triggers than we think.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      More occur than you realise owing to the sixth sphere.

      1. Truthseeker6157 says:

        The Sixth Sphere.

        November 15th was the Narc’s birthday. I have never missed. The year before last, he hadn’t spoken to me for months. Had disengaged I think. To all intents and purposes disappeared, poof! Gone.

        I waited, seven months to be precise. ( Can’t fault my loyalty) I sent a birthday cake pic, but no message on November 15th ( he had lied about his age, I knew he was lying), the cake bore the number of his correct age. His response came within five minutes.
        I knew he would reinstall the app on that day. Vanity. Pride. A hint of curiosity perhaps. The sixth sphere. I was correct.

        Two days ago. November 15th. The first year I didn’t message. The same rules apply. I escaped in May. A few weeks after arriving on the blog. Difficult to say who left who. Hoover in July. I ignored, silence since. 12.50 am Nov 16th. Hoover. He waited a full 50 minutes after his birthday elapsed! Well done him. I anticipated the hoover on November 18th. Thought he would give it a few days.

        It looks like planning doesn’t it? It isn’t. It’s a response to lack of control over a failed appliance. He is human after all. He is programmed to that date and that appliance. There are triggers for them as well as us. I don’t believe he thought about it until his birthday. Pride, Vanity, Curiosity, but this time, the need to assert control, and quickly.

        The sixth sphere is a real catch. They don’t plan, sometimes we fear that they do. Sometimes we wish that they had.

        In answer to the next question, about my No Contact. A friend of mine in the US died last week. I had reopened my US Facebook account. I had his mum and his brother on that. I have been communicating with them both via messenger. He messaged in the middle of a conversation I was having with my friend’s mum.

        Should I have re opened that account? Probably not. Though I had their contact details on that account only. The narc was not my priority over the last week and I am not beholden to him in this situation. It would be a lie however to say that I hadn’t seen the date looming. The next trigger comes in quick succession. November 27th.

        My ET is now high. Cloudy, a bit tearful. Mostly though, I’m less patient this time. Sharper, on the defensive, ready to fight. Hoovers are the cruellest part of the narc. The message sits there. A single response to it and we would be back to being in each other’s pockets again. Sentences finished on each other’s behalf, my biggest supporter and closest friend. Until, my fuel turns stale once more. Then, gone.

        And if you say my ET is high, I’ll show you bloody Supernova mode!! Ha ha, pfffft.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Well articulated.

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Thanks HG.

        2. Fiddleress2 says:

          Hello Truthseeker
          I admire the way you state things, it makes very vivid what you feel and what you are going through. I have the impression that I can feel what you are feeling, when of course I am not in your head, but this shows how well you are able to convey your feelings.
          Thinking of you, TS.

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Fiddleress,

            Thank you for saying that. You are welcome in my head any time! I’ll warn you though, it’s a bit murky in there! Long corridors, twists, turns, dead ends and sudden drops. Nothing a Palladin can’t handle 😉
            I sent my WED in. I’ll let you know. Remembrancer, just you watch!

        3. Asp Emp says:

          Hi TS. I read your comment RE: 15th. BTW what happened to our ‘virtual’ drink ‘plan’? 😉 I hope you are ok. Well done on not responding to the message. I totally get it – I have blocked absolutely everywhere and didn’t close my FB because of my friends that I need to have open lines of communication with – yet I am careful who I actually talk to (and where). The NC is working well and I suspect that as long as the N-ex”s don’t know where I am & as last resort would have to turn up at my house but neither will do that. It’s understandable that your ET & feeling cloudy / tearful – virtual hug from me present through this comment.

          Supanova is better than retaining the emotions within (in my view anyway) – HG may disagree on this…..

          Give yourself time, ET will reduce again – you know you can do it. xx

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Asp,

            All is well xx. I went off the rails a bit yesterday. Joking around with you on the other thread took the edge off for me though. Nod (not hug) to HG for indulging there.

            I’m ok today actually, been busy painting girl child’s room, shaved 10% off my time on my run this morning too. Was pleased with that. I researched Asperger’s a little the other day too. I understand more than I did. From what little I now know, I think any impact on your questionnaire would stand out and I think HG would spot and interpret. Might take him a touch longer to analyse if anything but he’ll get it right. Always does.

            I did think about the drink on Sunday actually. HG was going hell for leather on YouTube that day, it was quieter here, but I did raise my G&T to you ha ha.

          2. Asp Emp says:

            Hello TS – I could tell you needed a bit of a ‘nudge’ but more of an empathic & certainly humourous way of alleviating away from ET. Yes, I enjoyed the ‘convo’ too (I’m laughing again). Yes, it’s really good of HG to do this for us – he knows and he understands that sometimes we need a bit of ‘fun’ (LOL).

            Good that you did a bit of decorating – it’s my best form of excercise (there is another that I can think of but right now it’s not a possibility….. shutting my mind off that!) – I am very experienced at decorating & I surprise people at how quick and how well I can manipulate a roller on a pole (LOL, sounds like summat else!).

            Thank you for reading up on Aspergers – I knew you would ‘get’ it. Not many people do. I trust that HG would get my DCs right – he’s smart enough & his cognitives (understanding of the various ‘psyches’) to take my uniqueness into consideration. I found his video on ‘Empaths : The Detectors’ very insightful and it’s given me a deeper interest in knowing more about myself in that respect.

            (sniggering) “hell for leather on YouTube” – ah, bless, that sounds like HG alright.

            Glad you are feeling better now. And, thank you, HG for this x

          3. Truthseeker6157 says:


            As regards the little nudge, I think you did too. Can’t hide anything in a room full of empaths can you?! One of the nice things about being here in fact. The others always know.

            I’m the slowest decorator you ever saw ha ha. I can’t use rollers, I’m way too clumsy. I confess to having to use brushes. I’m sure I have OCD in my DNA somewhere. I like painting. Love to see the room when it’s done and all in place. Right now it looks like a bomb went off in there, teenage girl, sure she hasn’t noticed!

            I really enjoyed the detectors video as well. I think the empath focus is good for the Ultra channel too. It differentiates. You get narc channels, or empath channels, you don’t see an analysis of the two side by side.

            Empaths should be recognised and should be heard. Awareness about narcissists is crucial but at least people believe in narcissists, see them as a defined group. What they don’t do, is spot them. Empaths have a different issue. They aren’t seen as a ‘real’ personality type to begin with. The crazies on the internet dramatise us to the point where admitting to being an empath would make us sound like a nut job too. That’s not on.

            Fortunately the Ultra champions one group and forewarns about the other. It’s actually a very brave move. I’m confident though that we will get our own categorisation as a personality type in the future. Payback should come then. The Ultra being the first to describe us in an accurate and relatable way.

            Credit where credit is due, the Ultra Channel is a polished and effective platform that serves more than one purpose. I’m very grateful for the work and investment that goes into it.

          4. Asp Emp says:

            LOLOLOL…. (oh, god!) “!The crazies on the internet dramatise us to the point where admitting to being an empath”…… loving it, TS.

            “would make us sound like a nut job too. That’s not on.” fkg little s**ts….. damn right, it’s not on.

            “I’m confident though that we will get our own categorisation as a personality type in the future.” – I recall it being suggested somewhere that it should end up on the DSM5 – too right, as long as narcissism is on that too…… – balancing the two alongside – HG has proved that (start listening you medical “professionals”!!).

            ” Credit where credit is due, the Ultra Channel is a polished and effective platform that serves more than one purpose. I’m very grateful for the work and investment that goes into it.” – you said it all.

            Learn how to manipulate a roller on a pole – for DECORATING a room – it’s a lot quicker and you get a more even finish (I’m laughing – Thought Fuel indeed 😉 ) – but it’s true…… xx

          5. NarcAngel says:


            We’re hoping Empaths will eventually get their own category in the DSM so we can issue payback in the form of: “Take that! We’re weird but not the nut jobs you are” to the crazies?

            I’m teasing. I understand what you meant.

          6. Asp Emp says:

            Tease away, NA.

            Laughing and loving what you said.

            Like I suggested above RE: empaths / narcissism on DSM5 & balamcing the two alongside….. I commented elsewhere about narcissists having their control, as long as empaths have their power….. the definitions on Google search for:

            Control – the power to influence or direct people’s behaviour or the course of events

            Power – the capacity or ability to direct or influence the behaviour of others or the course of events

            = balancing each other out….

          7. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Hahaha. You really are fond of this rolling pole aren’t you?! I do need something to get into my corners…. Ok ok I’ll try it, nowt wrong with poles and an even finish! If it doesn’t work I could always dance round it. Waste not want not as they say. 😜

          8. Asp Emp says:

            Look, I was forced to decorate my own bedroom when I was 15 years old. I am delighted to report I was much better at that compared to Her. So my skills at using the roller (sniggering) have improved over the years. I ‘cut-in’ around the room first (painting along the ceiling / walls / corners / skirting board) with a 3 inch brush (ooh, measurements here 😉 LOL) – then roller the walls or ceiling – using the pole!

            LOL, dance round it – as a last resort, if all else fails, you can dance with the paint tin – swinging your ‘partner’ around the room…. xx

          9. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Add in a ‘HO! Hee! Hi! Ho! HA!! before the “Take that! “ and job done. Always works for me!

            Bloody crazies…

          10. Asp Emp says:

            Laughing – “Bloody crazies”.

            Let’s see – some people would class me as “crazy” because of things I say….. are we, empaths, the type to cackle like witches standing around a cauldron with a narcissist inside it? Hold on, HG, hold on – not you – you’re more than welcome to stand with us (as you are anyway – empowering us & KTN site)…..

            The entertainment and frivolities will never end on KTN blog. Poor guy (HG) having to moderate when he has other things to get on with – thank you, HG x

        4. lickemtomorrow says:

          The hoovers are a huge temptation, TS. There’s a part of us that wants them, just to know they are still thinking of us, and a part that dreads the possibility, because we know what happened the last time we took them back. There is no happy ending. Every fibre of our being wishes at times there was. Because that is the way it is supposed to be. Some grief on the occasion is totally understandable and you’ve weathered the event as best you can. I’m not sure what’s coming up on the 27th, but I’m assuming that is your birthday? It could well be another trigger in the 6th sphere so I hope you have your day planned out and come here for any extra support you need. If he doesn’t hoover, well then that’s what you want, even though your ET may be telling you otherwise. It will be another milestone in the act of moving on from someone who let you down and will continue to do so. He has no qualms about what he has done. So don’t have any qualms about leaving him in the dirt where he belongs. He may have tried to put you there, but that is really the place he should reside.

          I hope you will be feeling better soon and let HGs work be your guide in the meantime xox

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey LET,

            It’s strange this time. I’m clearer as to my changing thought process and the reasons behind it. I’m clearer as to why the hoover occurred, selection of message, the narcissism at work. His side I am fairly comfortable with.

            My side is tougher. ET doesn’t say go back to him. ET says, “Just one conversation, just one night, just one week. How about if you were just friends? You know now, you can manage him.” When it’s really being crafty it says, “He proved himself, saw you through all that, which one are you going to trust? The narc, or the other narc?” Trust, funny thing trust. I don’t actually fully trust anyone. Other than my dad, truly remarkable in his empathy.

            Yes, the 27th is my birthday. It’s also my daughter’s birthday, so I can focus on her. She was supposed to be a Thanksgiving baby. Doctor was adamant. I told him she’ll be here on the 27th, just plan for that. Sam was Friday 13th. I had a bet running on that one! Bingo! Show me the money honey! I’m not stubborn though. No stubborn ones here!

            In answer to your question, up and down x

          2. lickemtomorrow says:

            Totally get the ability to be clearer in your thinking around the narc and his actions, which in turn can lead us to thinking at some level we can handle them. It’s a trick of ET to think that is possible, and also a trick of ET to consider indulging even just once. There is a need to keep the door firmly closed on the narcissist.

            I think you are missing most of all what he meant to you. A safe harbour and a secure resting place. Perhaps he reminded you of your dad? And I feel that you are missing him, too. When we have so few people we feel we can rely on, and that one shining beacon of a person shows up, then it’s understandable we are drawn to them. When they show themselves to be unreliable then we have to let go of the image we have projected onto them. They are now telling us who they really are.

            I remember now that you and your daughter share a birthday <3 Very unusual, but I hope it is a wonderful day for both of you xox The guessing of dates is an interesting one indeed. My eldest was due on Christmas Day, but chose to make her entrance on New Year's Eve. I told her when she was little there was party guaranteed every year on her birthday 😉

            You've got this, TS xox

        5. Renarde says:

          Noice words TS. Now dont message him x

        6. Empath007 says:

          Mine does not respond to hoover triggers that easily.
          He knows we will be back.
          He sits.
          He waits.
          Because he understands his victims.

          In terms of planning manipulations, I have written another post expressing my thoughts on the I Spy article that has not been posted yet.

          Here’s what I understand ( I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong ) : The narcissist, for the most part, does not believe themselves to be a manipulator, they do not understand (or care for that matter) that what they normally engage in is manipulation. It is always the other person who is at fault and that created the basis of their behavior. They look without, not within, to blame others. They can not see that they too hold responsibility and accountability in situations, because that is not within their realm of understanding.

          With that, the way they react to situations is very much instinctual to fulfill their need to control. The narcissist does not necessarily meet a new romantic partner or start a new job thinking to themselves “I am going to tear this person/place/thing apart”. As far as they are concerned how could they even do that… when any conflict is everybody else’s fault ? The decisions they make along the way are therefore justified.

          However, the narcissist still makes decisions. They decide how they want to respond to someone, and as long as it is in their own best interest they are fine with it. They discuss people they hate with other people and make plans on how to best make sure this person is taken care of. I just can’t imagine they are empty… without thought on how to proceed all the time. That seems unimaginable to me. However, most things with narcissim does.

          My narcissist. He was aware of what he was doing. There’s not a doubt in my mind.

          This is the last I will say of it, it is a frustrating concept for victims to not only understand… but somehow accept in their minds that all of this happened to us, based purely on an instinct. It may take me some time to ever accept that, if I ever do at all. And regardless of whether it did or didn’t. The fact remains… both the narc and I made decisions. We are both responsible for the roles we played in our relationship. We are both accountable for the outcomes of the relationship. But only one of us actually cares.

      2. Another Cat says:

        Is Christmas/New Years included in the 6th sphere? If I check my phone blocker calls list, there will probably be a cluster around those holidays.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Yes, a fesitval or an anniversary can cause entry into the sixth sphere and lead to increased risk for you. This is why you need Future Protection form the Knowledge Caule AC,

          1. Another Cat says:

            “A ´roadmap´to enable you to see the problems before they affect you”

            Thank you, will have to check out Future Protection. I listened to Narc Repellant but need more and this is probably it.

          2. BC30 says:

            That makes sense. I have the luxury of having been an DLS, so cutting ties was easier for me.

      3. BC30 says:

        We can’t control that tho.

        I recently realized #2 would quote a fairytale–a not very masculine fairytale. I always thought it odd. I’m pretty sure it was picked off a prior IPPS/IPSS appliance.

        1. Another Cat says:

          Thanks for asking. What I learnt through the years is that I cause most hoovers myself.

          Not as in victim blaming,

          but as in: I can prevent most hoovers myself. The Ns are e g triggered everytime I post on social media, if they somehow are able to read through a mutual friend.

          Or if the N regularly meets my kids, a teacher maybe, and I mentioned this teacher to the kids. On those occasions the N feels an instinct to hoover.

    2. BC30 says:

      Do you mean things that generally remind them of us based on simply passing time together?

      I know for a fact the hoover triggered after I went NC was due an obscure holiday I celebrated. Since everything is blocked, I don’t know if there have been others since then. Being MMRA, it is HIGHLY unlikely he’ll take the risk of being rebuffed in person.

  8. Bubbles 🍾 says:

    Dear Mr Tudor,
    Thankyou for explaining my mum was ‘instinctively in the moment’ for 21 years
    All makes sense now
    Luv Bubbles xx 😘

  9. Empath007 says:

    If they are gathering information on someone years in advance… asking friends questions about us, collecting clues on social media… that is planned.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Not necessarily. It may have been gathered early to assert control in the moment and then used later. For instance, a narcissist may ask you about something and receive information from you. He does nothing with it. Most narcissists do not think “Hmm useful tidbit of info, I will store that away for future use” (Greater and Ultra would, but not Lesser or MR). Sometime later, there is a threat to control, the narcissism recalls the information from two years prior and plucks it from memory and allows the narcissist to use it against the victim in the now. It was never planned.

      1. Empath007 says:

        In the case of my narcissist, I can’t say I agree. He was always planning. What happened to me was on purpose. Although I have expressed many times I believe him to be a greater and why.

      2. Anm says:

        The narcisisst that I have been with do. Son’s father (mid-range) narcisisst keeps evidence, not to use against someone, but more as proof that he is a victim.
        Daughters father will actually create blackmail against people, and then threaten to show other people if you do not do what he wants.
        Another narcisisst that I was with, kept a journal. I actually think the narcisisst who kept a journal did so, because his own father was a narcisisst who did gaslighting. So whenever we had an argument, he always wrote down what was said and done (at least according to him).

        1. Renarde says:


          Its EXTREMELY hard to understand and I get it. The vast majority of narcs are unaware. Rinse and repeat. UMRNs and especially the Cerebrals dont have a stool to stand upon. You get the odd one, the Elites, such as Charlie boy who genuinely percieve they are all that. They are not. They are horror shows. Vain. Haughty. Self- aggrandising. They. Will. Fail. Why? Because they think they are ‘the bees-knees’. Idiots.
          Malcontrents. Losers.

          There is somewhat of a kind of intelligence there. But in Prince Phillps words, his son couldnt get a boat out of the dock without scraping it along the harbour wall.

          Utter. Idiot.

          I have watched this behaviour for 40 years.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Prince Philip is a narcissist so he is hardly going to be endearing towards his son´s naval skills, especially since he was a naval man for a very long time and it was his man arena for obtaining the Prime Aims.

          2. Renarde says:


            Oh agreed. Funny really.

          3. HG Tudor says:

            You evidently did not know in order to agree, otherwise you would have stated as such previously.

          4. Renarde says:


            Come come. Which tarten do you want?

      3. Another Cat says:

        A doctor once told me that stalkers/narcs, I think he used the word stalkers, have very very good memory. A propos what you commented on storing information, HG. It was a quick 40 minute meeting and he managed to squeeze in so much useful info.

        When I started to read Narcsite it resonated so much with what he had managed to convey to me. “Typically your mother will probably not respect a restraining order. People like that kind of don’t. And hoping for her to get dementia and forget where you live, well…. they usually have a very strong Hippocampus, memory storage.”

  10. lickemtomorrow says:

    Even though a manipulation might not be ‘planned’ it is still a manipulation.

    Instinctive or not, this fact does not escape the narcissist’s awareness. They know what they are doing is designed to get them something. It is deliberate. Even if they don’t know why they are doing it or that narcissism is at the bottom of their behaviour.

    I no longer care if they are planned or not, as long as I am aware it is a manipulation.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      No, not always. Many manipulators do not even know they are manipulating.

      1. lickemtomorrow says:

        Far out. You can’t peg anything on narcissist’s. They always have an excuse for their behaviour!

        Of course they know they are manipulating. Maybe they don’t know that’s what it’s called, but they do know their behaviour is designed to get them something. Otherwise they’re imbeciles.

        For example, my narcx gives me a silent treatment. He does that to manipulate me. He is clearly aware that by giving me a silent treatment the hope is that I will respond in the way he want so that he can gain control over me. Why else would he give me a silent treatment? Pretty sure he wouldn’t do it just for the heck of it. And he definitely wasn’t an imbecile. This makes no sense.

        1. Renarde says:


          No! They DO NOT know they are manipulating. Not at all. They are unaware. They would literally go to the gallows believing the sky is blue with pink parts and yellow dots.

          Awareness is a knife edge. You are aware or you are not. It’s that simple.

          It’s very difficult for a Empath to grasp. But you must. We can be made aware. Not all of us mind. I have seen this myself on here.

          Let’s repeat it. Not all Empaths can become aware. When I tumbled to that one, I was shocked.

          Empaths are usually late to the game. This is because we are processing far more data then our narc cousins. It’s very simple for them and complex for us.

          However, when an Empath does become fully weaponised, we are far more dangerous than the unaware narc. Even the UMRN.

          This is because we have the ‘common touch’. We instantly know the correct thing to say. We can immediately deflect an argument from a narc because we know, deep down, why that person has parsed that idea. We do not have to think. We know because we have affective empathy. That makes us fast. Even the UMRN cannot work as fast as us. A Greater, possibly.

          1. BC30 says:

            IMHO the UMRN wasn’t nearly as dangerous as the MMRA. Hopefully, I never see or speak with either ever again.

          2. Renarde says:


            All narcs are dangerous. Only today I was reading about a Middle Lesser who murdered his niece in the woods. I’m guessing he took her there to have funny business. She naturally refused. He violated her body and then burnt her. Dont ever fall into the trap that one level is more dangerous than the other. The big ex, UMRNS nearly killed me. My father also had a damn good go. My mother nearly did kill me as a baby. She attempted to smother me because I was crying. They are all lethal.

            I’m like a cat with nine lives.

          3. BC30 says:


            I didn’t say some narcs were not dangerous. I was not referring to physical violence, and I am speaking for myself and my narcs. The UMRN was less dangerous because I knew what he was all about whereas the mewling and cowardly MMRA ensnared me with the angelic illusion.

            I’ve said it one thousand times. All serial killers are narcs, but not all narcs are serial killers. Normals and empaths kill too, and I deal with murder and torture everyday–I mean that literally. I have zero doubt what narcs are capable of, but they are all different, as are we.

          4. Renarde says:


            I’d agree, you didn’t deny it outright but you did allude to it. I’m gratified you have corrected yourself. Takes guts to do that. Well done.

            All narcs are potential murders. My ex and that twonk of a father of mine, got very close indeed. But they didn’t succeed. Why? They had presence of mind to stop themselves. Control.

            I kind of get your stance. I thought that way too, once. I could control the UMRN but not the UL or the Lower MRN er. Total fallacy.

            I do like you and your comments are informative and instructive.

          5. HG Tudor says:

            Most narcissists do not kill, for reasons explained in the article “Why the Narcissist Wants You Dead.”

          6. lickemtomorrow says:

            Ah, thank you for your input Renarde x

            I see HG has commented that for the narcissist it is a very swift self defence mechanism that comes into play. In that sense it is ‘unconscious’ for them. They don’t even have to think about it. It just happens. Whereas an empath would often need to consciously maniipulate as it is not part of our natural way of thinking. Maybe I am beginning to get a handle on how it happens, even if I don’t like the fact I don’t like the fact of becoming victim to it. And that is where I want to see accountability on the part of the narcissist. Because when we are being manipulated we are also being victimized. I’m back to the Rolling Stones now 😉

          7. Renarde says:

            Yeah. It’s a tough bitch. Very hard. Very hard indeed which is why us, self-aware empies need to band together.

            Self-awareness nearly broke me. But not quite. I survived but I could call on the Lord and Master. That bloody God we all talk about. Hg.

            I can’t even begin to tell you how much I laugh and giggle where Tudor is called Sovereign. My King and even Leige. Leige!!! Go away and stop being very silly indeed. That’s the Bristisher coming out. But then again, I am descended from the Ancient Earl’s of Fife which technically makes me Scottish Royalty. I have my own kilt (many) and everything.

            I could knight Tudor. No one has guessed why he is called Hg.

          8. HG Tudor says:

            Yes, this is the second time you have mentioned you are descended from the earls of Fife and no you could not knight me.

          9. Renarde says:


            Not even a little bit? Kilt? Etc?

          10. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dearest Renarde,
            I was talking to friend yesterday and she was telling me a story recently of this mother of 4 she knows, who is seperated from her hubby
            He apparently entered the family home (he still had a key) during the night when everyone was in bed and proceeded to start to strangle his wife
            She was able to scream for her son who rang the police and he was taken into custody
            Came trial time, she dropped all charges !
            Asked why? She said everyone deserves a second chance and that he has his own business and if he doesn’t work she gets no money !
            She’s now changed the locks!
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          11. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Yer aff yer heid!

            So glad you’re back and firing on all cylinders. No. I won’t message xx

          12. Renarde says:


            I do like you missus. I am completely off my head and proud. I do like to think I am kind. Maybe others percieve me as being too abrupt, rude. Possibly even being scared of me.

            No one, excepting less than a handful, has anything to fear from me. If I do upset people, all they need to say is, ‘You upset me’. And I will apologise.

            What must be remembered is that I’m British. We have a funny sense of humour. My own SOH is incredibly dark. There is no malice though. None at all.

            What’s preoccuping me at the moment are two narcs who think they can rip me off.

            One has lied about fixing my laptop. The other is attempting to rip me off with 2oz of the green. Bad mistake.

            Honestly, I want to place both over my knee.

          13. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Same here, I belly laugh at the way you put things. I’m a Brit too but even so, you do have a way of putting things which is just funny. Humour is humour, some get sarcasm or a turn of phrase because it’s regional or even local, others might miss it.

            I know, there’s nothing to fear. One of the first things you said to me was something like “TS, wrong. That comment is so wrong in its wrongness it is brimming with wrongability.” It stood out, made me sit up, but I really laughed at that.

            If people do misinterpret on here, I wish they would just say, because really I think it’s often just turn of phrase. It’s that or it’s pain. One of the two. It’s the only reason we misfire or mistarget. Sometimes it just hurts.

          14. Renarde says:


            Ha ha! That does sound like one of mine! I’m glad you took it in the spirit that it was intended but I can equally see how it may be construed.

            Look, I’m a Northener. Northerners have a tendency to be blunt. We are kind though and very generous. Generally.

            Now how blunt is this? I’m early 20s and me and the old man are at a Liverpool party. Unfortunately, the ex had his flies open. An old Scouse bird spots it, looks at me and says, ‘Did you not dress him properly before leaving the house?’ It took me 5 minutes to stop laughing.

            I do not know what part of the UK you are from but it is true, Northern housewives are bloody harridens at times. They take zero shit. Both of my Grandmothers would nip their husbands. Even my mother can sort it with father. A hell of an achievement.

            When it came out about his cucking of a friend, all she would say is, ‘I wanted to knock his block off’. Go mum! I’ve got the popcorn!

            My own Great Grandmother, when she was pissed at her husband, would go outside and chop kindling for the fire. Angrily. Or strangle one of the chickens.

            What has to be remembered about the North is the Industrial Revolution. The Dark, Satanic Mills is no idle turn of phrase. Indeed, my own family were Mill Owners.

            Our sense of humour is a coping mechanism. Mine is too. I will not apologise for my straightness but it is very rarely done with malice.

          15. Fiddleress says:

            Renarde: “There is no malice though. None at all.” is what I have always thought about you. You do carry on, but I know there is none. And TS is so right to say that we misfire or mistarget because of turn of phrase or pain. I’d say, more often, pain.
            And I don’t even believe that anyone, not even ‘less than a handful’ as you put it, has anything to fear from you (bragging a bit, there, are we??).

        2. Anm says:

          Lickemtomorrow, I think it depends on the type of narcisisst.

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hi ANM, yes, HG is making it clear that the Greater’s are aware for the most part while the Lessers and Mid-Rangers are not aware. My entanglements for the most part I’m presuming has been with the unaware kind. Unfortunately that doesn’t lessen the sense of victimization in the circumstances. So ET is high on this one for me.

        3. JB says:

          LET, I’m not so sure. I think the point is that when he gives you the silent treatment he isn’t thinking ‘Ah she’s pissed me off, I think I will go quiet on her, that’ll make her see sense and do what I want’, it kind of just happens instinctively and he doesn’t even know why himself. I could see this in one of my own narcissists. He would feel (in the blink of an eye) aggrieved by something I had said, and would then suddenly completely change, declare himself broken and disappear off for a few days. I got the genuine impression that he didn’t even know himself why he went like this. Or I could have just been monumentally had, which is, of course, a possibility, all I have to back this up is gut instinct, and of course every person is different xx

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hi JB, I’m getting more of the sense of it being an instinctive reaction. I’m also fully aware that his actions were designed to bring me under control. That is the part I have been struggling with. That while I can be aware of that he isn’t. And is just operating from his narcissistic perspective. Which precludes planning (for the most part) and involves instinctive actions. It all comes down to the dilemma empaths have grasping the narcissistic perspective. But I’m beginning to untangle it a little more now xox

          2. JB says:

            LET, I liken it to a toddler tantrum regarding the instinctiveness of it all. A toddler doesn’t get what they want, so they attempt to regain control by having a meltdown. But they don’t actively sit there and think ‘Mum isn’t doing what I want, I am going to kick off and she’ll change her mind’, they kind of just do it, don’t they, like they are programmed to? I can only assume it’s the same. Mind you, I don’t know how good an analogy this actually is, as some parents (mine, for example) would say that the toddler does plan the behaviour, but this is just my take on it. Other thing with brain development – reflexes. If you push button A then B automatically happens, it’s not planned, it just happens. I came to realise if I said certain things with my narcissists, they would automatically respond in a knee-jerk manner and go to the manipulation of choice, no thought, just a reflex action xx

          3. lickemtomorrow says:

            Ha JB, I used the toddler reference in another thread in response to you 🙂 Great minds think alike and I take your point xox

            Toddlers, of course, don’t know they are ‘manipulating’ you. They are just trying to get their needs met. If we compare this to the narcissist then the reasoning is the same. Both are seeking to get their needs met in an unconscious action. In that sense that part of their thinking has not matured to the same extent as ours. There is obviously a lot more to this concept, but that’s it in a nutshell.

          4. JB says:

            LET, sorry, I must have completely forgotten that you used the toddler reference! Bloody brain fog again, blame it on my age! 😂 Did I reply? I don’t think I always see the replies to things; I don’t get any form of notifications (I turned off email notifications as otherwise there are loads there!), so I tend to just see the replies when I look at the ‘recent comments’ section.

            I guess at the end of the day the question is, planned or otherwise, do you want that kind of hassle and game-playing in your life? A big no from me! 😂 xx

        4. BC30 says:

          LET I am with you 100% in that there is premeditation. The N doesn’t think, “Oh, I’ll give her a silent treatment.” but the N does it to gain thought fuel or as a consequence of an emotion.

          An issue I see time and again on KTN is failure to define words and terms of art before arguments are made.

          As for your example, silent treatments are done go elicit a reaction and thought fuel, which is something all humans do. For example, how many times have I played the 3-day rule* with a romantic interest?

          *I don’t do this anymore. It’s silly. When he’s hot, he’s hot, when he’s not, he’s not. Next!

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            Thanks, BC30, and good point. I think I’m getting handle on the instinctive reaction of the narcissist, though I also believe it is being done as a means to an end, even though the narc is not sitting there deliberating over it. He wants what he wants and knows this is the way to get it.

            On the other hand you applying the three day rule is something you have deliberated over. You know or think if you apply that rule it will have the outcome you require. It is a conscious process. And one I see you’ve tossed out the window for now 😛 Rules are made to be broken, BC30 xox

            PS: What is the three day rule?

          2. BC30 says:

            It’s an outdated rule for a man to wait three days before calling a woman after he gets her number so as not to appear desperate or needy. With the advent cell phones it’s become outdated. I’ll admit that I don’t always respond to texts straight away, but if I don’t hear from a man at all in a 24 hour period, I block and move on.

          3. Another Cat says:

            Oh I’ve been through the 3 day rule. A guy asked me out on my first tinder. After the coffee date he waited 3 days to text and ask me out again. But it turned out to be a narc. Also I misunderstood.
            I am not capable of online dating.

    2. Empath007 says:

      I agree lickem, If someone has been stalking us for weeks, months, years at a time… for example ahah you write about how the narcissits decides they are going to love us, by going to the lengths of creating a fake profile to see what we post. That is planned. I’ve never created a fake profile to gather info on someone and become someone else for them. The reasons I have never done that is because I don’t plan manipulations… the narcissist however does.

      1. Empath007 says:

        *for example HG.. not ahaha lol

      2. HG Tudor says:

        No, it is not necessarily the case. Creating a fake profile happens in the moment. You come on the radar, the narcissism decides to assert control by a hoover and the narcissist has to create a fake profile to do so in the instant – that is not planned. Stalking – you see it as a campaign, often it is not, it is a series of individual actions which occur IN THE INSTANT but you (misled by emotional thinking and not understanding narcissism) think this a planned campaign of staling, it is not. You came on the radar, the narcissist has to assert control, the narcissism selects direct assertion of control so the narcissist walks over to where you work, waits and then follows you. Some narcissists plan but most do not. I recommend you organise a consultation so I can explain in detail why you are misunderstanding this. It is important to grasp how most narcissists operate in the moment and therefore it is not planned, have you accessed the material referred to in this post? By understanding most of it is not planned it will help you.

        1. JB says:

          I can quite believe this, bizarre as it sounds. Kneejerk and in the moment, everything is kneejerk responses to things. I even said as much on several occasions to one of my narcissists!

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Yes, it’s often a difficult concept for people to grasp, not because they’re stupid but because it’s alien to them owing to their own world perspective and ours being different. It’s premised on the need to be a very fast self defensive mechsnism

        2. NarcAngel says:

          I think narcissists operating in the moment and not planning was the hardest concept for me to grasp. It certainly took me the longest to accept. I think it might largely have been because I was looking at it as their focus being only on me when the reality is that I am not the only one in their fuel matrix. I now see it as unconscious manipulations. They go along collecting information and filing things away not even aware how they will be used until they are.

          An oversimplification perhaps but how I relate it in my mind:

          I buy groceries and put them in the pantry. I need groceries of course, but I do not always need immediately some of the items I buy, but rather collect a few over several trips that I think might be good to have at my disposal. I see a commercial for cake and think: I love cake and have not had any for some time. The thought quickly imbeds and a craving forms. I must have cake. Now. A quick search of the pantry and fridge shows all of the ingredients needed. Now I did not consciously buy those ingredients specifically to make cake but they are there, I have a need (craving) that must be satisfied, and I will now focus on obtaining (making) cake to satisfy that need (craving).

          I note also that my cake pan is a bit worn. I think I have a newer one on the shelf in a seldom used cupboard. I’ll check while this cake is baking. If I don’t find anything suitable in the cupboard I will order a brand new one online.

          Haha, how many people want cake now? Just me?

          1. WhoCares says:


            I love the ingredients in the pantry analogy.

            I am just listening to this video now. And as I listen, I am struck by how an empath friend of mine swears that her lesser narcissist plans. When she describes it to me, it is nearly convincing. Except I have my experience with a Mid-ranger as comparison, and while some might argue that he plans – I am so thankful he (clearly) does not. It’s like he’s stocked his pantry with all the necessities – and then some – to build an awesome cake from scratch, but when it comes down to it – he’s too lazy and will reach for the Duncan Hines boxed mix and then throw some sprinkles on it, in the end to distract that it had no real substance or authenticity to begin with.

            Specifically, I can clearly see how he just throws together shit in his court papers that looks good. But (thankfully) he also has to throw in bunch of stuff that detracts from his goal. Why does this happen?
            Sometimes I think I could argue his case better than him but thankfully, he is not better at arguing his case!

            Now I see that the things he does, in the moment, (and likely in a hurry) are likely to exert control elsewhere – it looks somehow both intelligent but haphazard (one is left shaking their head at some of his legal antics)…but I think, in reality, it is done to maximize his fuel intake and to maximize his ability to twist his circumstances to exert control SOMEWHERE – even it is not in the legal arena. And I don’t believe this is born out planning but – an instinctive need to ‘throw a cake together’ in the moment.

            Incidentally, I love cake.

          2. JB says:

            NA, nope, me too now! No time to make any though so settling for dried apricots instead! 😂

          3. NarcAngel says:

            Yes, their often ridiculous arguments and awkward responses display their lack of planning and can be to our benefit, as in the legal antics you mention.

            If I knew you were coming …… I wouldn’t have baked a cake – I’d have made lentil soup.

          4. WhoCares says:

            Haha – I think if we’re having lean and healthy lentil soup, are we not entitled to cake afterwards??

          5. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Who Cares,

            Laughing at Duncan Hines cake mix.
            What, you bake? This is why we have Duncan Hines!
            Would we wash clothes in the river if we had a top loader?!

            I’ll make this the quiet corner.
            (until I order take out) (same principle)

            NA, nothing should ever deter you from cake, count me in. Unless it’s a ready mix cake. Kindly make some effort!

          6. WhoCares says:


            “What, you bake? This is why we have Duncan Hines!
            Would we wash clothes in the river if we had a top loader?!”

            I fess up!
            I TOTALLY used a boxed mix for my son’s last birthday – but only because I had hand-shaped his fondant decorations (of a requested theme) in advance, AND had court on the same day.

            Had to cut corners somewhere.

          7. HG Tudor says:

            Careful with the baking chat.

          8. WhoCares says:

            Haha. I knew it. I went too far with the mention of “fondant.”

          9. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Near…. far…..wherever you are….

        3. Empath007 says:

          I appreciate you explaining it to me HG like I appreciate all the other truths you share with us regarding narcissim.

          However, when it comes to the individual I was involved with, I am very confident about what happened. I have spent years reading your work and have come to the conclusion I am a co dependant and he was a greater narc. When I say greater, I mean someone who is cognitively aware that they are “different” and who is able to think and plan their manipulation. I don’t say that because I want to pretended I was with the “highest” ranking of narc… if anything… I wish that weren’t the case as I would have felt a lot less afraid in the aftermath. I’m saying it based on what I observed in the 4 years that I knew him, and 1 year of dating. That is legitimately what I observed and I’m confident in my assessment.

          I’m also not stating it because I was hurt. Other narcissist have hurt me… and only one other (a female superior at work) I would put in the greater category. Every other narcissist I’ve dealt with I could see the unplanned way of living their life. In fact, one female colleague (not the one mentioned above) would often talk to me about her personal life and it was very clear she was making decisions in the moment much like I would. The only difference being she could instinctively manipulate. In fact most decisions she made were not even the most beneficial to her at timeS… but after reading your work I can understand it was her narcissism trying to gain back control of situations, so even if the decision seemed rash to others… to her it made perfect sense.

          In the case of my last relationship however. What happened was very much on purpose.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            I suspect the individual is not a Greater Narcissist because it is common for people to misunderstand what calculation is with regard to narcissism (this is probably one of the largest misunderstandings that occurs) and also owing to the effect of emotional thinking. The clear way to determine what the individual is, is to put the person through the NDC.

        4. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Similar question on this train of thought.

          “You come on the radar, the narcissism decides to assert control by a hoover.”

          No issue with the response to the sixth sphere.

          “Their narcissism (Lessers Midrangers) is reactive, instinctive and a response because this is the way that their narcissism, which is a self defence mechanism, works” (words to that effect)

          Narcissism is a self defence mechanism, understood. What I don’t understand is, who is operating the narcissism? Narcissism is a ‘disorder’, it isn’t it’s own entity, it doesn’t have a heart beat. So which part of you is the narcissism? Is it part of the construct? Is it the subconscious? I’m not sure I’m being very clear in the question but, “ the narcissism decides.” Who or what is the narcissism?

          The more I think about it the more this all revolves around lack of emotional empathy. All our attachments and memories are anchored by emotion, most link to positive emotions, others negative but to a far lesser extent. If those anchors aren’t present due to lack of empathy it makes sense that the narcissist can disengage without a second thought. The memory of that person has no foundation, no emotion to support it. It’s no different than remembering a telephone number or a number plate. The foundation is limited to less enduring negative emotion, which enables devaluation, because you can’t actually call to mind any positive memories -the fuel is now spent- only negatives.

          Negative emotions tend to be more short term, jealousy of a new car doesn’t endure. Anger tends to be intense but not sustainable. Most of your narcissistic traits are inward looking and short termist, again, no foundation in terms of anything outside of yourself.
          Am I making sense? Is this what it’s like HG?

          1. HG Tudor says:

            The narcissism is the self defence mechanism which has formed in the brain as part of the personality of the individual. It is the way the person has developed. As you are reading this, are you telling yourself “breathe in, breathe out”?(I assume you are not David Beckham) No, you are not, yet you are breathing. What is causing you to do that? Your life support system (a form of defence mechanism even) controlled by the unconscious of your brain. Are you telling your heart to beat are you thinking about making it happen? When you catch a plate before it hits the floor, do you think about doing it, or do you just do it? That instinctive reaction to make your heart beat or catch your Royal Doulton is controlled in your unconscious brain. Just as narcissism is for the majority of narcissists with alterations for Greater and Ultra.

          2. NarcAngel says:

            That is the best example regarding the instinctive behaviour of a narcissist that has ever been given. Really drives it home in a way that can be more easily understood. The narcissism just does what is needed.

          3. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you NA. Yes, the narcissism does what is needed because the narcissism is focused on the Prime Aims. The two most important elements, control and fuel are required in the MOMENT, not yesterday and not tomorrow, but NOW. Just like yesterday’s breath is of no use to your lungs and next weeks air is no help, you need the oxygen NOW every moment, “every NOW” so it has to be swift and immediate, therefore instinctive and in the unconscious for most narcissist and does not require any planning. You do not plan to breathe now, you just do it. My speed of thought is such that a range of options present themselves (they present instinctively) and then I select the most appropriate to assert IN THE NOW owing to the way my narcissism works, I am aware and my speed of thought gives me choice. I also am able to manipulate into the future because of intellect, ability, reach, resource etc which is beyond the gift and wit of most narcissists. Most narcissists do not need to plan for the future, they just need control NOW and thus their instinctive narcissism gives that to them.

          4. Asp Emp says:

            HG, I read this comment and your earlier one – I thought to myself – that some people do not necessarily understand what ‘instincts’ are. What you say here – what came to my mind is – we are all human beings and we all have the unconscious primal needs for survival – just like a wild animal hunting for food – some react (ie a Lesser & MRN), some wait, plan & calculate, (ie a Greater).

          5. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Thank you for explaining, I understand what you mean.

            The modifications. Does this mean that the Greater and Ultra still instinctively catch the le creuset plate before it hits the floor, then realise, ‘There is my instinctive reflex, I know why I did that’. Or, do they see the plate falling and decide if it’s worth catching?

            To what degree is the narcissism steering (not controlling) the ship in the case of the Greaters and Ultra?

          6. Truthseeker6157 says:

            HG, I think you answered my follow up in response to NA. Apologies, I only just saw that. I think I now have a feel for the difference.

            Thanks HG, I really wanted to understand that. I agree with NA, you gave a great explanation. Finally! I get it!

      3. lickemtomorrow says:

        Hi Empath 007, I can see why you would think those actions are planned. I am also struggling with this concept. The different perspectives take a toll sometimes in terms of understanding. I see HG has explained a little further and I’m focused on the notion of it being a manipulation and that being a conscious act. Perhaps what I am missing is the notion of the unconscious nature of the narcissist’s manipulation. The need for control outweighs or overrides any conscious thought of it being a manipulation. The truth is, I want my narcissists to be held to account. This is where the frustration lies for me. And on that note I will go and listen to some Rolling Stones … “I can’t get no …”

        1. Empath007 says:

          While I would love to see my narc held accountable as well. I know that is not something that I will witness. My observation that my narc planned comes from a lot his behaviors though.. not what I hope to happen and honestly it’s not based on my feelings about what happened either. It is who is his and how his mind works. The experience with him was much different then the other narcissists I have dealt with in my life.

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            The lack of accountability will see me continue to play Mick Jagger on a loop for now xox

    3. BC30 says:

      One more thing, I agree that the manipulation is instinctive. That doesn’t mean it cannot premeditated. Here’s how I think of it–when I see a child suffering on television, starving and whatnot I cry. I can’t help it and don’t think about it. It just happens.

      I am also the person who feels bad for the murdered who has been caught! Can you believe it?! I recently saw a video of a man beating his wife/girlfriend (?) in public. Two men went over and beat the ever-living shit out of him and I felt bad for the abuser!! There is way, way too much empathy in his brain of mine. I know that I LOGICALLY probably shouldn’t feel bad, but I do. It’s instinctive. It’s premeditated when I indulge in it such as with injured kittens and hamsters with little grabbies.

      1. lickemtomorrow says:

        Ah, BC30, you really do pay a high price with your empathy <3 You are incredibly attuned to the suffering of others … even the 'bad' guy. I can attest to the same in many instances and I don't like to see people getting hurt. At the same time I have a strong bent for justice and would happily see the death penalty in play to a greater rather than lesser extent. If there is a clear case for applying it, I have no problem.

        While instinct may apply in both cases regarding your surge of empathy and the narcissist's desire to control, your empathy is not victimizing anybody, unlike the narcissist's manipulations. We all have instincts of various kinds, but they don't necessarily involve the victimization of others.

        What are "grabbies"? I love hamsters, btw <3

        1. BC30 says:

          Lil grabbies are tiny human-like hands. Hamsters, mice, hedgehogs, chinchillas, etc. have lil grabbies. The give me SEVERE cute aggression. 😊

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            Well, that just made me feel all squishy inside 🙂

  11. ava101 says:

    do you still think that all the fear inducing measures and communications in regard to the covid hoax, isn’t a planned manipulation?
    You still think it is about a virus?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      So who has planned it, all the narcissists and psychopaths meeting up in a Spectre like chamber? You do realise those individuals COMPETE rather than work together, why? What is one of the Prime Aims? Control. If narc A heads MegaCorp he is not going to cosy up to Narc B at GiantCorp, they lock horns as their control is threatened by the other.

      1. ava101 says:

        But why then isn’t any hero narc putting an end to the insanity of it all?
        Why is there a conference of the largest corporations in January by the World Economic Forum on a great ‘reset’?

        I get the point about not cooperating, but didn’t you also say that psychopaths can manipulate and control other sociopaths or narcissists to their advantage?
        For example using politician narcs?
        I personally don’t think that Bill Gates or Zuckerberg – for example only – would have planned anything or cooperate, but that they are made regard themselves as the lords of the world by someone manipulating them and uaing them as puppets.
        Makes no sense?

        Someone cooperated in the past to set up the current financial system and economic rules – – why not again?
        Someone planned in the past work camps and infrastructure, why not again? Is that illogical?

        Are you entertained by what is going on about election fraud in US?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          The insanity of what? One narcissist alone cannot do it (whatever it is) for precisely the point I am making, other narcissists will see that as a threat to control and respond to it.

          There are conferences repeatedly, do they really agree on everything? Do they act in accord all the time? No, they do not. There are compromises and then people reject treaties and bail from them (Paris Agreement for example). With the Paris Agreement it came into effect with only 55% approval therefore 45% did not approve, hardly a concerted world order is it?

      2. ava101 says:

        If narc a and b both realize they both will drown if not working together?

        What about psychopath families with a lot of power who have ruled their sphere for generations? Possibly headed by a real patriarch psychopath? Or / and by deviding up their ‘kingdom’ – each heading a different country…. or bank…?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          As mentioned in a different answer, two narcissists may work together (usually higher echelons). You could easily have a situation where two narcissists fail to work together (owing to their narcissism) and both suffer in some way, remember the narcissism is focused on control in the instant and bugger the consequences, so two UL Type Bs would spend their time arguing about who should be in charge of steering the boat and who should bail it out and fail to notice that they are already drowning.

    2. Renarde says:


      Not a hoax. One of my friends who I trust, had it. A Cambridge alumni. She has also known people who have died from it.

      You see, Greaters do not work together. They just dont. They stay as far apart from each other as they can.

      The reason is simple. You cannot interfere in another’s fuel matrix. If you do then you risk fucking up your own matrix. Cross-pollution. Simple. You leave the aware to their own games and concentrate on your own.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        1. Greaters can work together where it suits the purpose of both, possibly with another Greater also. They will operate to their own agendas within an overarching accord and it is never a permanent state of affairs. What you will not find is a cabal of Greaters acting in unison, a la this famed collective of the global elite acting like some concerted hive mind.
        2. Greaters do not stay as far as part from one another as they can. That is unnecessary.
        3. It is nothing to do with interference in the fuel matrix.

        1. Renarde says:

          Well colour me pink! I honestly thought it was so regarding the matrix!
          Then how do you prevent cross-pollurion?

          1. HG Tudor says:

            It isn’t cross pollution.

        2. ava101 says:

          that makes sense. Thank you for your insight.

          How do you reckon functions a thing like the Group of 30 then? Or other groups like that?
          2. and really big corporations merging – – someone needs to give up some level of control then, for good ?

        3. ava101 says:

          But not entirely impossible – in theory – that there had been a plan initially by more than one psychopath, using lieutenants, common narcs and plain idiots for the advancement of their goals?
          Do you limit (short term) cooperation really to 2?

          So but why aren’t negative effects stopped then?

          You said you’re able to make quite long term plans, so I think we are still waiting for the effects of what was intended… such as broken economies. (Or more obviously broken economies).

          You think any working together by any psychopaths could never last that long?

          Rome took longer to fall?

          Some dictator regimes lasted quite a while?

          And why is your prime Boris acting like a fool in plain sight atm??

        4. ava101 says:

          P. S. :
          a) What about super strong hierarchies with psychopaths at the top?
          b) What do you make of illogical numbers – curves of predictions that never came true, numbers of Sweden compared to other countries with feckin’ facemasks and lockdowns, and what do you make of everything being based on a test which cannot show infections? So from a logical point of view?

        5. NarcAngel says:


          It’s can be confusing when something is said with conviction but not prefaced as a personal theory or posed as a question so thank you for correcting/clarifying. Yet again.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            No problem.

          2. Asp Emp says:

            “Yet again”. Ah bless, made me laugh (sorry HG).

          3. Renarde says:

            Asp Emp

            A lot of what NA says makes me laugh.

            But whom am I to comment?

          4. Asp Emp says:


    3. Anm says:

      Ava101, with all do respect, all the people that I know, who claimed covid is a hoax, is starting to catch covid. I know its no laughing matter, but in particular, I have an aunt who refused to consider covid19 as a ligitimate issue.she goes to church, has dinner parties, and thought everyone was stupid for being concerned. She called the other day to say she had covid, and can’t attend Thanksgiving dinner. I chuckled.

      1. ava101 says:

        Research how pcr tests work. And which sense everything else makes. This is not about a virus (the restrictions).

        However, I didn’t ask that, I had asked HG a specific question.

    4. fox says:

      Hi Ava, just so you know, my father recently died of this ‘hoax’ of which you speak. Before he fell ill he was perfectly healthy and had even recently run a marathon. The doctors worked tirelessly to save him but covid caused irreparable damage to his lungs and we were forced to say goodbye to him over a phone through a glass pane because we could not enter the room. Those of us who have lost loved ones to covid would appreciate a little respect. Please stop spreading such absolute nonsense. Thanks.

      1. Truthseeker6157 says:


        I’m so sorry for your loss. My father and I are extremely close. I can but imagine.
        Such a very cruel way to have to say goodbye. Stay strong Fox x

      2. ava101 says:

        I would appreciate if my questions weren’t disrespectfully put down, thank you.

        Your comment has nothing to do with the topic.
        And I have nothing to do with it if you encountered a glass pane…. or anything else you being a victim.

        Noone ever said anywhere that people don’t die after being treated for an infection or symptoms after having been in contact with any of different coronaviruses. So maybe respect other people voicing their concerns or questions, in regard to politics.

        You don’t know what is going on in Europe, no?

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Hello Ava,

          1. We have no issue here with people voicing alternative views on politics or anything else for that matter.
          2. Your comment to Fox demonstrates a complete lack of empathy and compassion. No one suggested Fox’s situation was anything to do with you.
          3. Your haughtiness towards Anm was palpable.
          4. You general tone is highly provocative.
          5. Some of us live in Europe. No need to be condescending.
          6. Taking the above points into consideration the suggestion of disrespect is hypocritical.

          That’s quite an entrance you made there isn’t it?

          1. NarcAngel says:

            Ava101 is not new here. Been around quite some time but comments intermittently.

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hi NA,

            Thank you.

            I haven’t seen previous comments from Ava but stand by my view of her dialogue on this thread.

        2. Another Cat says:

          My problem was not your questions. It was simply that you wrote ‘covid hoax’.

      3. Another Cat says:

        Very well spoken, Fox

        I wasn’t going to respond to Ava and others but since you opened up:

        I lost a warm kind friend in covid back in April. She was 50. Was helpful, wise, fun, commited. I don’tthink she had any previous health problem. She lived in another town, but we managed to meet sometimes. So much understanding in phone convos.

        Feel so sorry for your loss, Fox. Must feel dreadful to not even be able to hold your father’s hand. Can’t even begin to imagine.

        1. fox says:

          Thank you guys. Sorry for your loss too, Another Cat. It’s so sickening to see these flippant posts from hoaxers and anti-maskers. I feel if sharing my experience can change a mind to take things seriously, it could make the difference in someone else’s family member still being here this Christmas. My dad would definitely want me to speak up, and so I will continue to do so.

          1. Asp Emp says:

            So sorry for your loss, I missed your ‘news’. It’s not on, not acceptable – non-maskers was a reason why I had a ‘meltdown’ the other night – I want to be able to go and see people again without fear of getting ill but if some people carry on being idiots, then they are adding to the whole ‘business’. The isolation gets too much for me at times…. no wonder ET levels can rise…. Have a virtual hug from me x

        2. Bubbles 🍾 says:

          Dearest Another Cat,
          It breaks my heart to hear of the passing of loved ones due to covid
          Your dear friend sounds like a beautiful warm hearted person and I’m so sorry and saddened she is no longer with you
          Your treasured memories together will always remain in your heart 💕
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. Another Cat says:

            A thousand thank yous Bubbles. ❤️
            Some people in this world are just a very rare kind and losing them is long remembered.

          2. Bubbles🍾 says:

            Dearest Another Cat,
            Don’t forget how special you were to your loving friend
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

        3. JB says:

          AC, I am so sorry for your loss. 50, that’s no age at all. Makes you realise how fragile life is xxx

          1. Another Cat says:

            You are right, fragile.

      4. Bubbles 🍾 says:

        Dearest Fox,
        I’m so very saddened to hear of your dad’s passing and cannot begin to imagine the heartbreak you have just endured
        Please know our deepest thoughts and condolences are with you
        Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      5. JB says:

        Fox, I am so sorry to read this. And to not even be able to say goodbye properly, how truly awful. Sending you my deepest condolences xxx

      6. NarcAngel says:

        I’m very sorry to hear that you have not only lost your father and had to deal with trying circumstances in your final encounters, but that you are also subsequently being subjected to the ignorance and insensitivity of conspiracy theorists. You’ve spoken for your dad and for the families of many others. You’ve done him proud. Take care.


      7. Empath007 says:

        I am very sorry for your loss Fox. All the best to you and your family.

      8. Sweetest Perfection says:

        Fox, I am really sorry for your loss and for having to explain to others that your dad’s disease was real. Some people are simply cruel, selfish, and narrow minded. ❤️

      9. A Victor says:

        Fox, I am sorry for the loss of your father. It must have been very difficult to not be able to be with him at the end. My heart hurts for you and your family.

      10. BC30 says:

        Fox, I am very, very sorry for your loss.

        1. fox says:

          Thank you all so very much. Virtual hugs all around. <3

  12. Eternity says:

    I just finished listening to this. This definitely needs to be shared. HG you are so right there are a lot of rubbish out there on a variety of YouTube channels .They give out such wrong information, and people actually misinterpret what Narcissism really is all about.

  13. Asp Emp says:

    For the Greaters – it’s all a game to them. Yet they can’t necessarily beat a Supercomputer, despite the intelligence levels.

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