The Narcissist Is A Sex Chameleon

167 thoughts on “The Narcissist Is A Sex Chameleon

  1. Winning Path says:

    While many of you focused on the narcissist’s homosexual encounters, don’t overlook the sexual encounters with children. That cannot be emphasized enough. HG alluded to this, and I assure you it is not off-limits to the narcissist. Children are easy targets, and the narcissist pays no mind to the age. Narcissists will sexually, physically, and emotionally abuse a child without a care in the world. Always consider that if you are dealing with a narcissist, especially if there is a child that the narcissist could get access to.

    1. BC30 says:

      This is 100% true!!! Easy to forget the narc you know can and may have already preyed on children. Good idea to be mindful of it, to put a stop to it once discovered.

    2. Jasmin says:

      How can you know? Are there any signs to look out for?

    3. Leann says:

      I think narcissists are the ones that abuse children sexually but I don’t believe they are all attracted to children. Is there a type of narcissist that wants to violate children more than others?

      1. HG Tudor says:


    4. Alex says:

      My narcissistic ex is a pedophile. That is why he went to the Dominican Republic for two months after the discard. He left many clues when we were together that I couldn’t make sense of till afterwards. I myself was sexually abused as a child. I am now retraumatized because I cannot stop thinking of him doing to a child what he has done with me. I don’t have much appetite and can’t sleep. This is why he was so secretive. And why he compartmentalizes his life, so nothing overlaps. Please look after your children. Never let them near someone you suspect to be a narcissist.

      1. A Victor says:

        Alex, I am so sorry to hear your story. Your advice regarding our children is so, so important. 3 of my 4 children were molested, probably all by narcissists, all different people. I have spent much time in courtrooms and police stations over this. One was familial, one an authority in our church, one a neighbor kid and one a boss at my child’s job. All people and places we think of as safe. But when narcissists are involved, no place is safe. Thank you for sharing and for your valid warning. I wish you the best in your healing process, we are here if you need to vent.

  2. Another Cat says:

    “Try managing a group of empaths with skyrocketing ET.”

    *Hysterical giggling in embarrassement*

    1. Truthseeker6157 says:

      Ha ha 😜

  3. Another Cat says:

    Something I usually stress:

    Say what you will about narcs,
    but many of them have obviously been great pioneers of LGBTQ rights legislation in the world.

    1. Witch says:

      That’s true but they also make us look insane…
      Sometimes they take it too far and want to ruin people’s lives over one minor comment. I’m not going to try and get someone fired and ruin their life because they said bisexuals are weird or whatever.
      People will think you’re an oddball because you’re a minority, so you have to be realistic and see things in balance which they don’t

      1. Another Cat says:

        “That’s true but they also make us look insane…

        Sometimes they take it too far and want to ruin people’s lives over one minor comment.”

        I understand. I’m glad I’ve met some calm, laidback empathic trans-women, e g, way before I joined feminist support forums on Facebook, which are often taken over by narc trans-women screaming at posters who are newbies, unfamiliar with expressions.

        Actually, regarding the legislation and social acceptance pioneering, I thought of women first, and dress codes.

        I got the idea from when I first read about Meghan Markle in A Very Royal Narcissist. Oh, so working as a stripper, a general lack of shame and social codes is typical for NPD?


        I’ve always worn very short dresses and skirts, and being a bit of a coward at times, I just Know in my heart, that ppl like Sophia Loren, Marilyn Monroe, Madonna and other narcs have been huge pioneers, paving the way for the rest of us (even if their only purpose was narcissism) to show some legs or cleveage even at work. And be accepted for it. Things I take for granted in my everyday life.

        But yes, bigots and dictators and some ayatollahs are often also narcs, which complicates things.

        1. A Victor says:

          Oh dear. Sophia Loren is a narcissist? That’s almost as horrible as if I heard you know who was. Or Pierce (Brosnan).

          1. Another Cat says:

            Well it’s something HG mentioned in a comment.

        2. Sweetest Perfection says:

          Wait what! Sophia Loren!? Non può essere vero!

        3. Witch says:


          I’m familiar with the expressions and I still believe some are BS.
          I’m not a cis-woman I’m a woman not by choice and not “assigned at birth” but by a biological reality.
          And yes unfortunately the trans community has been over run and out run by delusional narcs who are pushing for the majority to change their language in order to accommodate their delusions.
          But these days if you say anything against their nonsense they will report you to the police for hate crime or email your place of work.
          I have respect for trans people who are much more reasonable like Blaire White and Buck Angel or the ones that admit they did not have a problem with their sex but felt they would adapt to the world better if they presented as a straight woman (especially if they knew they could pass) rather than as a fem gay man.

          1. Empath007 says:

            I completely agree witch. For many it is a form of control. And they are using it to their advantage.

          2. Witch says:


            I’d rather people be able to ask ignorant questions than be afraid of me because they think I’m going to have tantrum in the HR office.
            This is why I don’t really feel like I fit into any community because sure, I want my rights and my freedom but I also disagree with the fanaticism of many “activists”
            I personally don’t think young children should be taught that they can change their sex and I think there are serious consequences for doing so, which is not the same as knowing gay people exist. In fact many gay people have experienced issues around their sex and they grew out of it and accepted themselves as gay or lesbian, so I think presenting transgenderism as this blasé option that should automatically be affirmed is extremely dangerous

  4. NarcAngel says:

    Well that explains a lot of the sex going on in prisons.

    An excellent addition to the comprehensive information contained in the book Sex, which is a must read.

    1. alexissmith2016 says:

      Hahahah yes, sex in prisons was literally one of the first thoughts which popped into my head when listening to this NA

  5. Claire says:

    Absolutely brilliant video! Ten stars rating !
    From time to time , namely during the devaluation I was suspicious that my ex might walk left. Now this astonishing video provided not only compliments my favourite book SATN but also some kind of relief that I was not crazy thinking so.
    If I have to describe now with one word only what I feel
    about Narc 2 , I can say a contempt .
    The ac -dc would pursue relentlessly any gender under the sun to achieve their aims. “ But she/he/ they are just friends”.
    He tried to shock me with his cross dressing , to be honest I was way too polite to tell him that this and that top/ dress/shoes are old fashioned or tacky. Even I suggested to help him and put some make up on his face.
    Having gay friends and acquaintances I was not shocked as some of the guys do drag outfits and make up for some special events , just for the show. But not for Mardi Gras, they prefer to parade
    in mens outfits . Nor those guys pursue romantically other genders.
    And this part about the Mid Ranger’s facade is so relevant ! Narc 2’s family have no idea that he has attended orgies where he was on the receiving side with another men. Nor they have seen his female outfits.
    Again, contrary to my gay friends who don’t hide themselves in the closets and are good sons and daughters and don’t need validation engaging in promiscuous activities .
    The wit having no boundaries recognition and no moral compass couldn’t comprehend that his promiscuity made me run to the hills . He couldn’t grasp that the cross dressing whilst undoubtedly harmless activity, can be a huge black flag and a big turnoff for a straight person.
    And exactly like a chameleon he changed the tune after I broke with him, before I implemented contact but it was too late .
    I don’t want a chameleon:)

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you.

  6. leelasfuelstinks says:

    This is awesome! I always wondered whether narcissists have own sexual preferences. Now I got the answer. Except for the cerebrals who prefer NOT to have any sex if it´s not necessary. Okay, at least they have sex with themselves in their boltholes where they don´t have to come near a pussy/dick. 😉 😀

  7. BC30 says:

    This is why it always felt like a competition.

  8. alexissmith2016 says:

    This is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo incredibly interesting HG! thank you for making this. So if a mid-range who largely maintains a facade they are hetrosexual and still does for most people but occasionally lets slip/hints/outright tells you, is this more likely to be the mid who would be King type? It’s like they’re bursting for you to know.

    1. HG Tudor says:


      1. alexissmith2016 says:

        Helpful. thank you very, very much

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are welcome.

  9. Witch says:

    I’m not a narc but I would have sex with myself not gonna lie so I understand

    1. Sweetest Perfection says:

      I’m too sexy for(even) myself.

    2. Duchessbea says:

      Well if you are good in bed, why not. 💗

    3. Witch says:

      I also get “fuel” from sex and I feel like a bad man with big D energy when I’ve done a good job but I don’t use it for evil, only for the good of humanity

      1. Witch says:

        Am I spending too much time on narcsite because please tell me why I had a dream last night that I was seduced by Kevin spacey and I slept with him? Why!?
        I’m never talking about sex again

        1. HG Tudor says:

          No, watching a Kevin Spacey Special. Whist eating cheese. Those are the factors which opened up your true latent desires for Spacey to fill your Spacey.

          1. Witch says:

            Lmao nah
            I did not watch a Kevin spacey special and I ate vegan.
            But some how he Astro projected into my dream… we were in a huge book shop that led to a house and it was like he was taking me on a tour, next thing I know we are in a room with a bed and he kisses me …eeewwww WHY!?
            I hate narcs! They even get their own way in your dreams.

            If I were to interpret this dream seriously, I would say that maybe it means subconsciously I’m still concerned that I am vulnerable to being taken advantage of by a narc and I need to continuously build my narc defenses

          2. Asp Emp says:


        2. A Victor says:

          Hahaha! Thank you for my early morning laugh Witch!!

          1. Witch says:

            you’re welcome A Victor
            I often have very strange dreams including the weirdest sex dreams

          2. A Victor says:

            Yes, dreaming about sex with Kevin Spacey is def weird!! Lol! Btw, I’m glad you preserved your integrity by not twerking in front of the uncles, my daughter twerks in front of me all the time, she thinks it’s hilarious to do so, I usually smack that thing! Lol!

    4. NarcAngel says:

      I’m with you Witch. I’m the best I’ve ever had.

  10. Empath007 says:

    This type of behaviour was very evident in a female narc I knew. She used to tell me of her sexual endeavours… and she would have gone for anyone. I was dumbfounded but now I get it. The only exception was this one guy that really liked her she kept saying she had no physical attraction but I think he just didn’t meet her criteria for an IPPS which is what he wanted to be and she wouldn’t grant that to him.

    “If it moves and provides fuel we will hump it” 😂

    Then explain to me why I’m having such a hard time getting a Hoover over here 😂

    1. Asp Emp says:

      I once knew a female who was always talking about sex at work – I was not present but I was informed by the MRN and he told me that it made him uncomfortable. Now I can understand from reading the book ‘Sex & The Narcissist’. The female in question is certainly a somatic but not very clever, probably quite easy to see what school she is – I have not seen her in ages. She never really liked me – now I know why……

      1. Empath007 says:

        Interesting it made him uncomfortable. I’d think most men would thrive on that haha. Yes, I can appreciate female narcs from a distance though. At least they are liberated and in control of their sexuality. Good for them for using it against men haha. I feel like they are out there fighting the good fight trying to even the score in their pursuit of fuel 😂 haha.

    2. Leigh says:

      Empath007, why do you want the hoover so badly? You know, not all of them hoover. Some of them work in a nomadic approach. They keep going on to the next and don’t look back. I guess he didn’t reach out on that day that was significant to both of you? How do you feel about that? I’ve been thinking alot about you lately. I hope you’re ok.

      1. Empath007 says:

        I’m not sure why I want the Hoover to be honest. The most brutally truthful answers I can come up with are I am bored, lonely and sexually unsatisfied as I have not slept with anyone since and the fear of covid and the pandemic has not particularly been helpful at getting me back out there. He fills a void. He’s familiar. He shakes things up in my life. He validated my poor self esteem… I don’t feel that way every day. But the isolation and boredom due to the pandemic has caused me depression.. and he’s my drug of choice.

        I don’t know which type he is. He’s hooevered me in the past so perhaps that’s why I expect it. I think if he saw me in person he’d take the bait … but who knows… I won’t go out of my way to show up in person.

        No he didn’t reach out. Not surprising. It’s OK. I didnt reach out either so it was good to get past that urge another year in a row lol.

        Sorry that went on for so long. Thanks for checking in ❤️

        1. Leigh says:

          You didn’t go on for too long. I’m here whenever you want to talk about it. As long as Mr. Tudor is ok with it. I know how holding it in isn’t good and that we need to release it.

          I know what you mean about drug of choice. That’s what workplace narc is for me. He gave me an escape from my home life. I think my workplace narc may be a Ping Pong player. I think he goes between me and his wife. He’s not wearing his ring anymore. I’m not touching that with a ten foot pole though.

          Here’s the articles about the four classes. I love digging through Mr. Tudor’s older blog posts. There is so much info out there.

          1. Empath007 says:

            Thanks Leigh 🙂 I’ve read that article. I can’t ascertain what he is because mine only operates with IPSS’s he hasn’t had an IPPS in nearly a decade. He does have short term golden periods but he is always seeing 2-3 people at once. He’s a master of compartmentalization so it’s rare the women ever find out about one another. I don’t have enough information about the women to know the length of time, and what sort of relationship they had to make any inferences on what his “style” is. But not sure it matters. I’ll be ok, it’s good he hasn’t reached out. And I’m ultimately too chicken shit to make the first move which I’m quite sure is his preference. He’s just waiting… he likes to do that.

            Yes stay strong with your work narc. They can be quite convincing. If you need an escape sometimes it’s good to turn the focus back to ourselves. And what is going to help up move forward with the next stage of your life. While I don’t judge you for staying with your husband… know that there’s a world of opportunity for you whether you stay or not ❤️

          2. Leigh says:

            Empath007, I know I should leave my husband and I will. Sometimes I’m full steam ahead and other times I sit and procrastinate. For some reason, I’m finding it difficult to do it. I think its fear of the unknown. The devil that you know is better than the devil you don’t know.

            As for workplace narc, yes, he can be convincing. Especially since there’s a piece of me that still finds him attractive. He was relentless for a couple of weeks. Showing up at my office sometimes 3 times a day. I even got the stare one day and he told me he missed me. I’m sure he got a little fuel from my shocked reaction, but I don’t care. I didn’t give in so he’s backed off now.

          3. Empath007 says:

            I get why you stay Leigh, no judgment, staying probably makes a lot of practical aspects of your life a lot easier and there is no shame on placing high value in that. In fact, I think a lot more people would benefit from that type of thinking as opposed to flying from one relationship to another going through emotional and financial messes. Plus divorcing a narcissist ? Doesn’t exactly sound like a simple, quick and easy process.

          4. Leigh says:

            Empath007, I plan on giving him everything just so that I can be free. I won’t take the house or our savings and in exchange, I keep my retirement fund. The house is probably worth more but not by much. I figure that will make it easier.

          5. Empath007 says:

            Hi Leigh. It will likely make some aspects easier. But that is also your life and your money. My mother did just what you did in her divorce… she felt too much guilt for
            Leaving. And felt tired at the time. She always regretted that though.
            Because ultimately the life you built is one you built together. There is the law on your side. He can’t just have everything. But perhaps you’ll find your freedom worth every lost penny.

          6. Leigh says:

            Empath007, I have a means to rebuild myself. He does not. Hes uneducated and only can do manual labor. His work ethic is horrible even though he thinks he works hard. So because he doesn’t work hard and hes uneducated, he makes very little money. He had a windfall in his twenties and that’s why we were able to get a house. Its more his house than mine and he needs it more than I do.

        2. Sweetest Perfection says:

          Empath007, it takes guts to be as honest as you were in your comment about why you want the hoover. I don’t want you to feel bad, I am sure most empaths have felt that way. I know I have. Because we see things based on good emotions, hoovers make us feel special, wanted, pursued. I am not gonna deny that when my narc started calling me from anonymous numbers and sending music he knew I would like I felt really good. When he showed up at my workplace pretending to be walking his dog, I felt fantastic -even though I ran away through the back door so that he didn’t see me-. The illusion (because it’s nothing more than that) of being loved again kept me floating for a couple of days. It takes time and NC practice to make that illusion dissolve in order to see the reality for what it is: he needs a fix of someone and you happened to be close or there was nobody else available. It’s a hard pill to take but it’s the only one that’s gonna liberate you. However, I totally understand that boredom and the impossibility of meeting new people in the pandemic makes you wish “something” happened. At least you know why you feel that way and you know it’s not because you are hopelessly ensnared to him, but because you don’t have anything better to do. Try to redirect your thoughts, which I have trained myself to do. For every time the idea of kissing the narc comes up in your head, substitute his face with someone else or think of something different or get up and grab a book or go for a walk. Don’t let it settle, that way it will become your comfortable thought to go to when you’re bored.

          1. Empath007 says:

            Thanks. Yes I’ve realized through this whole process my level of honesty is often shocking for people (not that you were shocked – but you pointed out it took guts) to me being vulnerable is second nature. I grew
            Up in a household where it was fostered and totally respected. I was never made to feel weak to strange by opening up. So I’m very comfortable being vulnerable, I’m not ashamed of my own humanity (not that I’m suggesting others are) but I’ve always enjoyed digging into those deep
            Dark parts of myself and others. Which is likely why I love HGs works and take such a large interest in the truth.

            What I’ve learnt through this process though is in my real life I need to reel that in. HG has made me understand it’s not always to my advantage to be perfectly honest. And it’s actually been extremely helpful to me particularly at work I have made strides in my professional life leaps and bounds by keeping some of my personal opinions to

            Here I’m anonymous. So being brutally honest is easier too !

            Ya I’m not sure what the answer is. He’s familiar. It seems
            Like the easiest thing to go back too then start something new. And go through the lengthy process of getting to know someone else. Perhaps having a weak connection etc. I don’t think I’m in love with the narc. Simply craving the affection and as you say… that feeling of being special and wanted. Which is only normal after
            So much time on my own.

            The pandemic has made my job slow… not many projects coming in. And I have high anxiety about going out and meeting new people. I’ve basically made myself a hermit due to
            The pandemic and it’s taken a tole
            On my mental health… hence the obsessing about the narc. Some
            Turn to drugs and alcohol at
            Times of stread… I turn to
            Obsessing 🙂 haha !

            Thanks for
            Your reply sweet P ! Hope things are well with you and your lovely empath husband 🙂

          2. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Thank you, E007. My lovely empath husband is making the strongest effort to making me feel good this different holiday season. Every night while we cook dinner, he turns on the tree’s (Albert’s) lights and plays Christmas songs. Because my level of tolerance to those songs was decreasing every day, he turned to jazz versions which I enjoy better. I feel fortunate to have him, but I understand what you mean. I haven’t left my house since March other than to go for a run and walk the dogs. Even the prospects of a friendly neighbor approaching me on the street makes me act defensive. This pandemic is gonna turn me into an antisocial weirdo. I’m afraid when it ends I’ll have become one of those wolf children found in the jungle, running on all four near my dog pack, growling and making weird noises, and running into a corner if anyone dares to speak to me. I may even be rabid.

          3. BC30 says:


            As E007 mentioned, I also have feelings of isolation and boredom. I’ve become the online somatic! Haha, not really. As far as the hoover, my barricades should have been stronger. They are now.

            I was speaking with one of my advisors last week, who said that the hoover was about him coming back to his “toy” because the toy was fun in its special way. Ultimately, it’s all about fuel, but they do weigh the odds and gamble on whether or not they will be wounded (among other HEC).

            One last thing, after much struggle the visualization that finally worked for me was to visualize nothing in the space my body is occupying. So, if I am driving, I visualize the empty seat. Standing in my kitchen, I visualize it as being empty, etc. Imagining that I am not existent in the space, means he can’t find me physically or psychically.

          4. Sweetest Perfection says:

            BC30, I don’t have any online interaction but I’m grateful for KTN, I speak with more people here than I do in my real life!

          5. Empath007 says:

            Glad to know I am not the only one who lives in hibernation mode ! haha. Awe, that is so sweet of your hubby 🙂 I hope you two have an awesome Christmas despite all the changes this year !

          6. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Thank you E007, I hope you do too!

        3. BC30 says:

          I think I felt the same way you did. I thought I wanted a hoover, then it happened and even though I didn’t respond, it left me unsettled. Much love to you. ❤️

          1. Empath007 says:

            Good for you for resisting, I do not think I am in the headspace right now that I would. And in my case my guards are completely down on purpose. I want to talk with him, I’m just keeping my urge under control since I know that is not in my own best interest. And honestly… I wouldn’t even know what to say… it just seems awkward to reach out. I’ve written drafts but since I know how he’d interpret most and I understand his behviours… every time I look at my message I think it would just be strange to send it. That’s the power of HG getting in our minds I suppose ! Which is good.

            You’re becoming an online somantic ! hahahaha ! I would do that too but I am too afraid of catching COVID from a stranger haha! at least I know my narc is a germaphobe and taking all the necessary precautions haha.

            and… dating is a lot of effort. None of my relationships work out anyways so why waste my time with some other looser who’s going to do nothing but hurt me in the end anyways ?? It just all seems like such a massive waste of time.

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Empath 007 x

            I think the hoover does give us the feeling that we are still wanted. Particularly if we have been careful to safeguard against it.

            The problem is that the hoover then also appears to offer a choice. You have a decision to make. Respond? Or not respond?That question invades your thoughts. Even if you don’t respond, you wonder what would have happened if you had. What he thought when you didn’t answer. Was he bothered? The list goes on. As BC30 says it’s unsettling and it’s not worth that flash of excitement that it causes.

            I can understand your reluctance to date again. That getting to know you thing, the effort that entails. Just sounds like a whole heap of effort with no guaranteed outcome. I think we look at it that way when ET is higher. When it lessens I think dating again probably seems more exciting. That flutter in your stomach, the uncertainty of it all. It’s a rush, not so much of an effort because the whole thing then just becomes exciting.

            I think if people want to start new relationships when the time is right, it’s something to be seen as an adventure, a new chapter. If they don’t but they are happy with their lot, then that’s fine too. The only thing that isn’t fine is going back to the old narc or not watching your back and getting caught by another. We’ll never ever be happy that way. Not truly happy.

            I fully understand your thinking. It has been a monumentally crap year in many ways. Especially for empaths who do need people interaction more than your average bear. Many people are lonely, even more so at this time of year, we just feel like we need ‘something’, something to make us feel alive again. The narcissist brings with him a whole world of pain though. That’s all he has to offer. Confusion, upset, pain, the game you won’t ever win. It’s not worth dropping your guard and risking that again Empath 007. Please shore up your No Contact. Look forward to something good with someone good instead. You can’t see yet what will happen in 2021. Look forward, don’t ever look back, because what’s behind you, has already gone. Xx

          3. Asp Emp says:

            Hey TS, your comment had me in tears……

          4. Empath007 says:

            You’re right truthseeker. It’s nothing but a world of hurt waiting. And I am also painted black, which puts me in a particular position of risk that he would want to extract revenge. I will likely never be granted a golden period my black status. And I shouldn’t even want one.

            I do want to point out my own perspective on dating someone new. I realize I sound like a “downer” , however, in my opinion it is the ET that makes people believe in “love” and causes those excitement and butterflies, when in fact, true deep intimacy does not necessarily come with butterflies. It is the needing butterflies that is exactly what causes the issues for most empaths (in my opinion). And we need to stop seeking that … and start seeking someone who understands us… but even that’s an issue, because who better to mirror and “understand” then a narcissist.

            It’s a tricky game, the game of love. and I just don’t want to play. To me it’s not worth getting COVID or getting hurt again for (what I now perceive to be) a made up fantasy that is never going to happen for me. But what I am not grasping is that the narc could give me COVID… the narc can and WILL hurt me again. So why go back to that ?

            So… really I don’t know what the future holds for me. But I know you’re right… it can’t be the trash that I already threw out, the narc.

          5. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Are you ok?

            I can send Bertha round if you want? Just make sure you have plenty of sugar dummies in, or she’ll just sit on top of the wardrobe, wings drooped, ‘On Strike’.

            Bloody guardian angels. Pain in the ass.

          6. Asp Emp says:

            Laughing – at what you said about Bertha & sugar dummies & ‘on strike’…..

            My ET levels flared up….. it happens to us empaths…. even though I have gained quite a bit of ‘understanding’ ‘hidden’ aspects within myself – I realised this morning that there are more to ‘unearth’ within myself.

            I should be thankful really as where else would I have gained these ‘insights’ into my own ‘darkness’ – I had thought I had ‘reached’ into the depths of myself yet there is more to be purged.

            Hence the education of understanding my own ET continues……

          7. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I find it frustrating too sometimes. Like I want to give myself a shake and say,”Oh for God’s sake, just belt up TS!”

            This journey we are on starts off with us in search for the answer to one aspect. Then it continues on. As more gets pieced together we get the associated ups and downs with those new revelations as well. We react as we go.

            It isn’t a fast process, things take time to settle, some things we review and have to amend as our understanding increases. Try to be kind to yourself Asp. I have massive amounts of patience with others but I’m not the nicest with myself at times. I expect more, and I expect it faster. I think you might be similar. Getting frustrated with myself is a waste of energy. Accomplishes nothing. In fact, it actually slows me down. I’m starting to realise that too.

            Look on the bright side. Imagine if you were HG moderating us. I do chuckle at that sometimes. You get the guy in the pub moaning about his wife’s PMT. HG sitting there, looking fabulous, with his Jack and coke thinking, “You don’t know you’re born mate. Try managing a group of empaths with skyrocketing ET.” Ha ha.

          8. Asp Emp says:

            Thanks for your response TS. Ok, you may be right – about being too hard on myself. I suppose a whole life-time of not understanding myself cannot be “unlearned and re-learned” in 5 months! Thanks for the ‘nudge’ & words from your view.

            Laughing RE: last paragraph. Hilarious, yes, poor HG, no wonder he may need a drink or two (sorry, HG).

            Do guys really discuss PMT in pubs?! (laughing).

            Thanks again, TS. Much appreicated x

          9. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Any time xx.


            Only when there’s no football on. Ha ha x

          10. NarcAngel says:

            I picture HG with an Amaretto Sour, repeatedly slapping the big green MODERATE COMMENT button while simultaneously keeping half an eye open for the miracle of something new that might stimulate his interest and lamenting the death of brevity.

          11. HG Tudor says:

            Ha ha, not too wide of the mark!

          12. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Empath 007,

            You don’t sound like a downer to me. You sound like many of us feel. Frustrated by this year and to a large extent frozen from moving on due to COVID restrictions.

            As far as a romantic partner goes, my own conclusions will be of no help to you here. What I can say though is with lowered ET and the tools we have learned here in terms of future protection and red flags, I can’t see any reason why those that want to find someone new would be unable to do so. Unfortunately, it just takes time to find the right person. I’m advised that the whole love at first sight thing is not the way to go! Not that I ever subscribed to that to begin with. Xx

          13. WhoCares says:


            That whole comment was hilarious – but “lamenting the death of brevity” was like setting the star atop the Christmas tree.

    3. alexissmith2016 says:

      Awww E007, the lack of hoover can only mean a couple of things, either he is in GP with someone or you threatened his control too much.

      1. JB says:

        Alexissmith2016, in the case of the narcissist not hoovering because you threatened control too much, how does this work when the narcissist hoovers after years? Does the narcissism (because of the compartmentalisation aspect) forget that this particular person threatened their control so much?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          1. The threat to the control fades through the effluxion of time therefore it is of zero relevance years later.
          2. Even where it is relevant (say days later) it may still be outweighed by other factors in the Hoover Execution Criteria.

          1. JB says:

            Thanks for the info, HG.

            “The narcissism causes the remembrance once again, if it serves a useful purpose, rather than narcissist wanting to remember it again.” It’s ironic really, narcissists crave complete control, yet this comment says to me that in effect they are completely controlled themselves, but by the narcissism rather than by other people.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Well yes, in the same way you are controlled by your startle reflex or the tunnel vision which occurs when you are in flight from peril or how your pupils dilate in certain conditions to improve your sight. There are many different ways that individuals are controlled by instinctive, involuntary systems.

          3. WhoCares says:

            This whole conversation on control is interesting and has added to my understanding of ex’s current behaviour.


            If the HEC directs a narcissist to repeatedly hoover through legal motions for more access with his child (i.e. cross motioning in a way that causes the narcissist to actually NOT gain increased time with his child) – is the narcissism unconsciously choosing this so that the narcissist can then flip the circumstances to seek pity fuel – and control – elsewhere.
            This is the only ‘logic’ I can find in my current situation, as the legal outcomes are a repeated threat to control for my ex.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            No. The narcissism is seeking to assert control in the moment (i.e. draw a reaction from the protagonist victim) and invariably succeeds. It does not have any interest as to whether the motion itself is successful as that is down the line.

          5. WhoCares says:

            Thank-you HG, and understood. Yes, the motion would be successful in achieving a reaction (because there is an obligation to respond) and the narcissism doesn’t ultimately care if the motion itself is successful but any thought fuel from the respondent regarding the motion is so far removed (in terms of quantity and potency), I figure it must be done, in part, to achieve (pity) fuel from a more proximate source (potentially a new IPPS) – especially if the motion is UNsuccessful.

          6. WhoCares says:

            So the narcissist (in this case) wouldn’t plan for the pity fuel because ultimately he would accept a ‘win’ – but a narc with a penchant for sympathy fuel wouldn’t waste an opportunity for a pity play to another victim.

          7. HG Tudor says:

            You’ve got it.

          8. WhoCares says:

            Thank-you HG.

          9. JB says:

            HG, yes, I guess so. So I suppose because it happens involuntarily (being controlled by the narcissism), it doesn’t actually ‘hurt’ the narcissist as such, because he/she is unaware that their actions are being controlled in this way.

          10. HG Tudor says:


          11. JB says:

            Thanks HG.

          12. Empath007 says:

            What about if they hate you though ? I get that they look down on us too much to ever truly be “hurt” by us… but don’t they hat their victims sometimes ? And if so, wouldn’t that hate of the victim be enough to keep them away ?

          13. HG Tudor says:

            No. The hatred (black) will shift to white at some point.

          14. Empath007 says:

            Wild. Mine hates me and I don’t imagine that shifting. I would more see him acting nice at first and then striking a blow when I least expect it to get revenge. Because after all… the nice narcissist is far more dangerous then the mean one.

        2. alexissmith2016 says:

          JB, my understanding is exactly that, time is a healer, including of egos and so they will forget what you did, until they want to remember it again.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            The narcissism causes the remembrance once again, if it serves a useful purpose, rather than narcissist wanting to remember it again.

          2. alexissmith2016 says:

            Ah that’s helpful. I always forget this distinction between the narcissist and narcissism. A helpful reminder, thank you

          3. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome.

          4. Empath007 says:

            so interesting. So when they see you in person do memories come flooding back ? I know with my own memory I ruminate about specific events or moments tirelessly, and they will eventually leave my memory for good… but it takes a long time. I assume if you were painted black they hold on to the grudge forever ?

          5. alexissmith2016 says:

            I used to ruminate a lot E007 it’s something natural for empaths. Just recently I’ve got a real handle on it. hG is very clear how unhealthy and pointless it is, what’s done is done, it’s in the past and so why bother thinking about it. It is a difficult hurdle when we’ve done this all our lives but the more you practice it the easier it becomes. Just have to be strict with yourself. You can do this E007, it’s no different to any time you learn anything new, just keep practicing xxx

          6. JB says:

            Thank you AS2016. I understood that the narcissist could hoover at any time if the conditions were right, but I must confess that I had thought this wouldn’t ever happen if the victim had been too much of a threat to control in the first place. Too much effort, etc. It’s all eye-opening x

          7. HG Tudor says:

            This is a repeated misunderstanding by victims.

          8. alexissmith2016 says:

            It is very eye opening JB. The other reason I forgot to mention is NC regime. A strong NC regime hugely reduces the risk of a Hoover. I deleted his number, deleted all my SM changed my phone number etc he could not have come to my home and we also did not live very near to each other. So there was no way he could have contacted me and yet still I wanted a Hoover. It was early days and pre HG so I was not fully aware of what he was and doubted myself hugely etc. I desperately wanted a Hoover just to validate my importance to him. I now fully realise no one is important to the narc unless they provide things for them be that fuel or residual benefits so now I would not care about a Hoover. Of course as soon as I saw him some three months later he hoovered immediately. I got my validation. At the time due to lack of understanding I needed that. Now I wouldn’t because I feel I have a very good grasp on it all. Older and wiser Hahha

          9. Truthseeker6157 says:

            This ties in to the question as to whether the Mid Ranger / Lesser plans his manipulations. Also if they realise they are lying or not.

            Could I check understanding here please?

            The narcissist comes home in the evening….

            IPPS “ Hey you, what did you get up to today?”

            Narc “Nothing interesting. Work was busy. Went out to Bar Fly after for a few drinks with Dave.” ( it’s always Dave isn’t it.?!)

            IPPS “ I knew it was you!” I saw you all over that blonde girl in the red dress.”

            Narc “What are you talking about? I wasn’t anywhere near a blonde girl in a red dress.”

            IPPS “ You were. I was in one of the booths with Claire. We watched you come in. We watched you walk straight over to her, kiss her hello and then fawn all over her for the next hour.”

            Narc “ Can’t have been me. I had a late meeting, was tired, came home straight home after to spend some time with you.”

            IPPS “It was you. You just said you were in Bar Fly after work. I saw you. Claire saw you. I’m not stupid.”

            Narc “ No I didn’t. You said you went there with Claire. Makes sense. Old stomping ground. Out on the pull again behind my back. Proper pair of slappers….”

            Etc etc etc.

            The narcissist remembers going to the bar. He states it when he comes in. Then he is challenged by the IPPS so the narcissism tells him, he didn’t go to the bar at all. He came straight home.

            In that moment he believes he was never there. Essentially, he believes his own hype. Buys in to his own lie. She challenges again so he switches to deflection. Provokes her. Accuses her of being out on the pull so that now, she has to defend herself and her own actions. At the same time, he is moving the conversation away from himself and the original threat to control. He doesn’t debate and think, “I know, I’ll provoke her. This will bring her under control.” The narcissism moves to defend him automatically.

            He remembers where he was to start with. The narcissism causes him to rewrite history and issue a lie only once his control is threatened.

            Is this what is happening with lies, planning and hoover triggers?
            A rapid response in the moment? Anything can be changed deleted or added if deemed necessary to assert control in the moment?

          10. JB says:

            HG, “this is a repeated misunderstanding by victims” – interesting..glad it appears I am normal! I wonder why this is such a common misunderstanding?

          11. HG Tudor says:

            1. Emotional thinking causing the victim to believe that they have somehow “won” so that the narcissist will never bother them again.
            2. Dipshit Mid-Range Narcissists posing as faux-empathic Narcissistic Abuse Recovery Coaches (oh how the acronym is so apt!) who propound this inaccuracy, so it is picked up by victims who believe it is accurate.

            If you think the narcissist will not hoover you again because you somehow wounded the narcissist into some kind of coma, you are committing a grave error.

          12. Asp Emp says:

            (laughing)… “Dipshit Mid-Range Narcissists”.

            Brilliant…. “Narcissistic Abuse Recovery Coaches (oh how the acronym is so apt!)”

          13. JB says:

            AS2016, hope you don’t mind me asking, but how did he hoover 3 months later, given all of the NC measures you had taken?

          14. alexissmith2016 says:

            Of course. I knew him from a certain location. Something in my life changed and I had to go back to said location. It was very hard and took every bit of strength I had at the time

          15. JB says:

            HG, yes I can see how these things can cause misunderstanding to occur. I understand that irrespective of wounding, a hoover can still happen due to the in the moment-ness nature of narcissism, the compartmentalisation and changes in the fuel matrix with being painted black/white etc, but in my case, for example, I thought it would be easier (in the event of entering a sphere of influence etc) for the narcissist to just obtain fuel from someone else in the fuel matrix – namely someone who doesn’t pose such a constant threat to control.

          16. HG Tudor says:

            You do not pose a constant threat to control, it is a mistake to think that you are.

          17. JB says:

            AS2016, that must have been hard, especially after having gone complete NC.

          18. alexissmith2016 says:

            It was but I was expecting it and it was full on. But I grew great strength from it. I never fell back into his arms, not at all. I honestly don’t know how people can withstand abuse for so many months and years. They must have huge amounts of strength. Just a teeny bit of devaluation and I’d had my fill lol

          19. JB says:

            HG, I only believe that (I posed a constant threat to their control) because I constantly questioned anything which didn’t seem right to me, and fought against all attempts to control me. But I guess maybe the narcissism could cause that to be forgotten as well?

          20. HG Tudor says:

            You might pose a repeated threat as opposed to a constant threat. You were not with the narcissist all the time nor were you always threatening the narcissist´s control, so repeated is the correct description. Even where you believed that you posed a repeated threat, as you identify, this would be forgotten, causing the narcissist´s return and/or other factors outweigh the perceived threat element of the Hoover Execution Criteria.

          21. JB says:

            AS2016, I’m glad you didn’t fall back into his arms. I think that also takes a lot of strength too x

          22. JB says:


            You’re right, I mean repeated threat, not constant threat. Careless wording there, sorry!

            Thank you for the explanation re. the hoover risks. I should have realised in the first place that the nature of narcissism would make it so that my repeated threats to control would be forgotten. Takes a while for the applied knowledge to sink in! 🙂

          23. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome, it does take time, but the important fact is that you are aiming to do apply it, so do persevere.

          24. JB says:

            I will do, HG.

          25. Leigh says:

            AS2016 says, “I honestly don’t know how people can withstand abuse for so many months and years. They must have huge amounts of strength. Just a teeny bit of devaluation and I’d had my fill lol.”

            Its so bizarre, with certain narcs I can handle more devaluation and with others its much less. I think it depends on the devaluation that they use. With my husband and my mother it is much more subtle and so I didn’t even recognize it. There isn’t name calling or hitting or even silent treatments. Little by little they chipped away at me and before I knew it, I was in an abusive relationship.

            With my father and workplace narc, I recognized it pretty quickly and stood up for myself and didn’t take their bullshit. My father was physically abusive and left when I was a teenager. When he came back, I barely gave him the time of day.
            Workplace narc didn’t hit but he would give me silent treatment after silent treatment and I wasn’t dealing with that. Workplace narc still hoovers but I won’t ever fall back in his arms again.

            You say someone who sustains abuse for so many years must have huge amounts of strength. I think the opposite. I think I’m weak. I think I don’t have the strength to leave. Its easier to stay.

            I just wanted to give a different perspective. I think you’re the strong one for getting out.

          26. alexissmith2016 says:

            Leigh, your mother ans husband sound like my sister. Ever so subtle. As a child I never liked her as a teen I idolised her because I thought she was so perfect. It was all so subtle and confusing and for her devaluation really was not used if you were adoring her. Of course I only recognise this as an adult. But she is always manipulating behind the scenes and would screw yku over given the opportunity but you would never know. Thanks to All of HG’s hard work I do know. But I would never have worked her out otherwise.

            Leigh you really do have more strength than me. I could not and would not take that level of abuse. I had to walk away and so if you have the strength to stay you have more than enough strength to leave trust me it’s the most empowering thing you can do.

          27. Leigh says:

            Thank you Alexis. I can imagine how empowering it must feel. It will be glorious.

          28. alexissmith2016 says:

            It will be Leigh! You’ve completely got this! We’re all here for you xxx

        3. alexissmith2016 says:

          Ah just seen HGs answer – much clearer x

          1. Another Cat says:

            “. So when they see you in person do memories come flooding back ?”

            This is how I understand it, yes.

            That’s what’s so irritating about them, they don’t seem to think of you if they don’t see you. One old friend is like this. I never contact him, but this town is not huge so he can sometimes happen upon me at a cafe/bakery or such, talk, write an email that we absolutely must meet.

            “And why do you always run away from my life, Cat??”

            Then for years he doesn’t think of me, until next time he bumps into me.

            A few of us exfriends have learnt to deal with him in that we simply smile say how do you do to him, and then don’t answer the following guilt-email.

            People in small town areas seem to quietly with age build up skills for dealing with narcs.

          2. WhoCares says:

            Another Cat,

            Are you in a small town?

            ” I never contact him, but this town is not huge so he can sometimes happen upon me at a cafe/bakery or such”

            Small towns can be challenging with a narc.

          3. Another Cat says:


            “Are you in a small town?

            Small towns can be challenging with a narc.”

            Thank you for asking. Yep 150 000 souls feeling like 10 000. I don’t know why it’s built this way, landscape architecture but lovely nature for running and walking. Excluding oneself from all past narcissists is not possible without turning bonkers.On the other hand there are some old nonnarc friend groups.Some AW people.

            How is your social group situation WhoCares? Did you manage to find some new ppl you can trust?

          4. WhoCares says:

            Another Cat,

            Similar here, I am in a smallish town, or at least one that is broken up into smaller, sprawled out communities and don’t have to travel any far at all to find rugged nature trails. And yes, always the possibility of running into past narcs because of necessity of using the same central services in the city center.

            As for my social situation – ha! I am fine on my own, I likely only socialize for the benefit of my son!
            In all seriousness though, I have identified a confirmed Empath friend (in a similar situation to me and she reads HG’s work), so we support each other when we can. Other than that, since our move, my son and I had been establishing new social contacts (pre-pandemic) but those plans stalled out due to social distancing. Just taking it cautiously for now…glad the snow is here because both my son and I like getting out for winter activities and many of those can be accomplished with social distancing.

          5. alexissmith2016 says:

            Who cares, I’m not getting many notifications at present but just saw you’re reply on any hole. I’m so pleased I’m not alone with my memory. I’m always amazed when someone can remember anything about me when commenting on this blog. I think an improved memory and lack of fear would be the two traits of a narc ans in the case of fear a narc/psycho which id love to have the most.

            It pisses me off knowing that even lesser Ns have a better memory than I do ahahah

          6. WhoCares says:

            Haha – Alexis, do you think narcissists have an improved memory?? I think they have a good memory when it suits. And only when it suits.

  11. lickemtomorrow says:

    “If it moves and provides fuel, we will hump it”

    Hahahaha 😛

    I can’t help laughing at this … it’s hilarious!

    I’m trying to let it sink it that narcissists are so malleable in their thinking that they literally have no preferences of their own when it comes to sex, but their sexual encounters are purely based their need for fuel. It’s an indication of the basic internal disconnect from themselves and how narcissism takes primacy over the individual.

    “I’ll be whatever you want me to be.” That could certainly work during the seduction period.

    In contrast, during devaluation: “I won’t be anything you want me to be, including interested.”

  12. A Victor says:

    This explains a whole lot about my ex and the summer narc. A whole lot. And, I’ve almost finished the book, Sex, need to finish it, very interesting.

  13. Asp Emp says:

    ‘The Unbelievable Behaviour of The Narcissist’ springs to mind…..laughing – at the audacity….. no wonder Jesus Wept…. laughing……

  14. lindseymarie says:

    Currently reading your book on sex and the narc. ABSOLUTELY MIND BLOWING. Sex=fuel. Not love, not connection, not intimacy. Explains a lot. Now I wonder if he had moved that mirror to the bedroom on purpose or if it was a coincidence.

    1. Truthseeker6157 says:

      Lindsey Marie,

      Ha ha, same here! Best sex ever guy, he moved a mirror into the bedroom not long after I started staying over.
      I walked in one day and there was a huge roll of clingfilm next to the bed.
      He was a lot older than me (18yrs). I was in my early twenties. I’m naive at the best of times, still am, so I asked, “Why have you got a big roll of cling film next to your bed?”
      He said, “I like the feel of it.”

      Ohhhhhh! Huh?

      Talented in bed though. Never really thought about him being a narc as it was me that fired him off. He did have some narcy behaviours though come to think of it. Mentioned his ex wife quite a lot, particularly her big boobs. Probably assumed that would bother me. Nay luck my friend, never wanted big boobs. He bought a car similar to mine, different colour. Very demonstrative in public. Hands all over me, didn’t matter who was watching. Always me and him, no coterie though. Dominant in bed. The first and only time I made a sex tape. Wanted sex even when his young daughter was staying over in the next room. He lived in the apartment below mine. I’d only be in from work five minutes before he showed up. That bugged me. Wanted to come out with me and my friends when we went clubbing. Yep, fair few markers there now I look back.

      I was travelling a lot with work. They then sent me away for a six month secondment. He showed up at my apartment uninvited a couple of months after my being there. That irritated me but I let him stay as he’d paid for a flight etc. ET might have fallen. Spell was broken. I ended it the next trip home. He’s the only one of ‘the big five’ I could point to and say, “Yeah maybe.”

      1. Asp Emp says:

        (laughing) about the cling film, brilliant!

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Ha ha. I can only imagine now what I might have been faced with if I had let myself in unannounced! He gave me a key but I never used it. Always knocked and waited.

          1. Asp Emp says:

            (laughing) Yes, wonder what you would have ‘seen’ had you let yourself in……. cling film? Boggles the mind what or how he would have used – my imagination is great but, alas, on this occasion, it doesn’t work (laughing)

      2. A Victor says:

        Dang, if I have to attract narcs, why can’t it be one of the talented ones?!

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Laughing. I just dropped lucky there. Took the good but Bertha stepped in before it turned bad. I owe her a sugar dummy for that. If he was in fact a narc, might not have been.

          1. A Victor says:

            Hahaha, Bertha? What did I miss? Glad you didn’t have any bad either way.

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Bertha is my guardian Angel. She sits on my shoulder and steers me out of trouble. Has a thing about sugar dummies and she holidays in Blackpool. They like Blackpool the guardian angels.

      3. lindseymarie says:

        TS I do not understand why he would enjoy cling wrap!? WTF is that about? Never heard that one! Oh and showing up at your place uninvited is to me a boundary violation. I had someone recently do that to me and it was a huge red flag.

        1. NarcAngel. says:

          Well cling wrap is said to keep meat fresh so I’m guessing he was wrapping his sausage.

          1. lindseymarie says:

            Oh dear, that’s a vision I’d like to get out of my head now!

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I thought that, but there are easier ways to wrap a sausage. Has to be more to it. I reckon he wrapped himself up fully, or at least torso.

            Let me just underline, I never saw the clingfilm in action! Ok? Just to be clear !

        2. Truthseeker6157 says:


          Me either, but I never get stuff like that. I usually wait for one of The Wise Ones to enlighten me on here! Ha ha.

          Think it might have something to do with friction! It was a big roll, all I’m gonna say !

      4. njfilly says:

        I have a bedroom in my house where one entire wall is mirrors.

        I call it my “exercise room”! Ha ha!

    2. Jasmin says:

      I would say on purpose as I got 2 mirrors in my bedroom as well. He told me he thought it was sexy to be able to see the act from all angles.. sometimes he watches my facial expression but most of all it seems to me like if he is watching himself..

      1. Sweetest Perfection says:

        Yeah mine had a big mirror in his room to watch himself mostly. Nothing like a mirror to catch a Narcissus!

      2. lindseymarie says:

        I think it maybe it was on purpose but I’ll never know. It was strategically placed. One day I was like oh look the mirror from the other room was moved, that’s interesting. Then oh look, there’s a good view for you, good to have that mirror there, look how nicely that worked out! Not gonna lie though. I didn’t mind it there.

        1. Winning Path says:

          It’s definitely on purpose. I watched mine move the mirror in a motel room from hanging on the wall to propped on a chair alongside the bed just before sex.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            That could be an instinctive response.

          2. Asp Emp says:

            laughing…… desperate measures, indeed…..

  15. Asp Emp says:

    Laughing…… the image alone. Ah, bless, my analytic mind, it is being stretched…… I am learning more and more, each day….. no “errors” of the ignorant…… just not – yet – explored…….

  16. Sweetest Perfection says:

    You come and go?

    1. Caity says:

      Yes, they come and then…they go. The thing hardest to understand is that before they’ve even come…they’ve gone.

      1. Sweetest Perfection says:

        Mine came way too soon, and then he went.

        1. Violetta says:

          There once was a man from Kent….

          1. Sweetest Perfection says:


    2. WhoCares says:


    3. Truthseeker6157 says:

      Like a panda. (Eats, shoots and leaves)

      1. HG Tudor says:

        If he’s like a panda then the comma is superfluous. Lynne Truss will be after you.

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Lynne is a narcissist?!

          But, but, she seems so nice!

          Second comma again? Probably.

        2. Sweetest Perfection says:

          Haha who gives a fuck about an Oxford comma…

          1. NarcAngel says:


            Let’s eat grandpa.
            Unable to eat diarrhea.
            I like cooking my pets and family.

            Commas are your friend.

          2. HG Tudor says:


          3. Sweetest Perfection says:

            It was a great song, does anyone know what happened to that band? Commas and vampires go well in this blog

          4. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I love those, sometimes I use them in class.

          5. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Laughing xx

      2. A Victor says:


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