Surely That’s The End, Yes?




“I have not heard from him in a month, he has moved on hasn’t he?”

“I exposed what she is like to all of her family, she won’t be contacting me again that’s for sure.”

“I told him I know what he is and he disappeared so I doubt I will hear from him again.”

“He is with somebody else already so I guess he won’t want me again will he?”

“I told him what I thought of him and he just backed off. He won’t hoover me will he?”

“He came crying back to me and I gave him short shrift. I doubt he will bother again.”


There are many different scenarios and outcomes involving our kind where the victim considers that our kind will not bother with them again post discard or post escape. The victim thinks that a period of total silence, the involvement of the narcissist with a new victim, the manner in which the relationship ended will all mean that the narcissist will not come sniffing around the victim ever again.

We will.

Why is this the case?

Firstly, you must understand our perspective. You belong to us. You are our appliance. You are our property. The Formal Relationship between us may have ended but the Narcissistic Relationship is forever. It only ends when either you or I cease to draw breath. It does not matter that we enter into a new Formal Relationship with somebody else. It does not matter if you do. It does not matter that world war three erupted when we parted company. It does not matter if there has been complete silence for two years. None of these factors alter the fact that in our minds the connection between you and I because of the Narcissistic Relationship lasts until one of us dies.

Secondly, the attraction of gathering fuel from you is substantial and this is the prime driver for never letting go. Fuel is so important to us that it drives everything about behaviour and the link between you and I is no exception to the all-pervasive power of fuel.

Thirdly, factors such as new partners, the effluxion of time and the manner in which the Formal Relationship has ended are immaterial.

I am repeatedly asked by people whether a hoover will happen. I always answer the same; the risk always remains, but you can manage that risk. People set out the circumstances of the end of the Formal Relationship to me and what has happened since (if anything) and ask whether a hoover will happen, or express their view that they do not think it will happen because of a, b or c. My answer again is the same; the risk of us returning always remains, but you can manage that risk.

It is never the end. There is always a risk, a chance, a probability (or a possibility) that we will return to you and apply a hoover. You cannot assume that it is over. No matter how much it may seem that it is over, no matter how much it may appear to you that we will not come back, that we apparently have no reason to do so, such assumptions are dangerous. There are only two factors which are material to the issue of whether you will be hoovered again.

The first factor is the Hoover Trigger. For a hoover to happen potentially, it must first be triggered. This means that you must come into our sights, that we sniff the prospective fuel that leaks from you, that something happens to cause you to come up on our radar. Whether this happens depends on whether you enter one of the six spheres of influence. I have written separately about them in The Spheres of Influence (And What You Can Do About Them) in another article. I will not repeat its content other than to state that

  1. You have control over whether you enter any of the first five spheres of influence; and
  2. You have no control over whether you enter the sixth sphere of influence.

By staying away from us through no contact you will not enter the first five spheres. The sixth sphere is when we happen to think of you. Thus, if you have successfully implemented no contact the only risk of a trigger being activated is if we happen to think of you. You cannot influence that. Our preoccupation with your replacement means we are far less likely to think of you and hoovers are triggered by you doing something to enter the first five spheres, such as messaging us or passing where we live.

If you maintain no contact the first five spheres will not be entered. It then just depends on whether we happen to think of you. This may not happen for weeks or months. You can therefore see that by staying out of the first five spheres you will vastly reduce the risk of a Hoover Trigger being activated but you cannot state that it will never happen as it is reliant on if we happen to think of you. That may just be a random occurrence or it might be because we see something that reminds us of you.

The second factor is only applicable if the Hoover Trigger has been activated. The second factor is concerns the Hoover Criteria. These criteria include such matters as: –

–         Whether you are a potent source of fuel;

–         Whether you can easily be located;

–         Whether you can easily be contacted;

–         Whether you have your defences maintained concerning us;

–         Whether you remain mired in the emotional sea;

–         What support networks you have in place;

–         How well fuelled we are;

–         The nature of the narcissist who you entangled with (Lesser, Mid-Range or Greater); and

–         Potential obstacles

All of these matters combine to determine whether it is worthwhile us expending our energy to act on the Hoover Trigger. If we are presented with a sitting target, flowing with fuel, caught in the emotional sea, isolated and exposed then the criteria point heavily to the fact that a hoover will now take place. If on the other hand it is very hard to contact you, we know you have stopped flowing with fuel when dealing with us, you have people who will stop us trying to reach you and so forth, you become a Flawed Reason to Extract Emotion (F.R.E.E.).

For a worked example of how this can happen if someone enters the first sphere of influence I recommend that you read the article Hoover Time! Sphere One.

Accordingly, if you can do everything possible to become a F.R.E.E. then even if Hoover Trigger is activated then the chances of us executing that hoover will be considerably reduced. By contrast, if you fail to attain becoming a F.R.E.E. then you run the risk of a hoover being executed.

You will note that in the hoover criteria above there is no mention of the gap between when we last contacted you and the current time. There is no mention of the circumstances in which we parted company as the Formal Relationship. There is no mention of you knowing what we are, whether you told us, whether you exposed our abuses to others. Those are not factors which concern us. The existence of a new partner is not relevant either in isolation, but is only a partial consideration in terms of whether that person might stop us. Of course even if they might do so and all the other factors point to the execution of a hoover, this one criterion has diminished relevance.

Accordingly, when you are asking yourself whether a hoover may happen. Remember this.

  1. You can never say never.
  2. There needs to be a Hoover Trigger. You can significantly influence whether there is one and reduce the risk but you cannot remove it.
  3. The Hoover Criteria need to be met. Again, you can significantly influence whether the criteria are met by becoming a F.R.E.E. and reduce the risk, but you cannot remove it.

The issue of whether you will experience a hoover is not completely in your hands, but is far more within your control than you might at first have thought.

It is never the end but you are not helpless.

90 thoughts on “Surely That’s The End, Yes?

  1. Anm says:

    I believe empathic parents know when their children are narcisisst, or at least narcissistic. I am sure HG gets plenty of inquiries for the narc detector regarding someones child.

    1. WhoCares says:


      I agree with you; if the empathic parent applies their learning here.

      But I know of one empathic parent who doesn’t realize this about her child and she is privy to HG’s work.

      1. A Victor says:

        I think it would be very difficult for many parents to face, to admit even to themselves. It would be devastating and the death of a parents dreams, if they understood the full impact it could have on their child’s life. Some, I like to think myself included but owing to ET likely not, may find it easier to know and seek out options to “help” their child.

        1. WhoCares says:

          “Some, I like to think myself included but owing to ET likely not, may find it easier to know and seek out options to “help” their child.”
          AV – that is exactly what this mom is doing: seeking help for some of the child’s behaviours. But I would be ‘calling up’ HG on that one – that is if I could recognize the behaviors to begin with.

          1. A Victor says:

            WhoCares, you are a brave and wise mother.

          2. WhoCares says:

            A Victor,

            I just wanted to say thank-you for your kind words. I often do not feel brave and wise when it comes to raising my child – I just try to do the best with what I have to offer him. I am far from perfect and areas where I lack, other parents are better at. Child raising is really kind of balancing act and one simply hopes that not too many things fall or go awry in an irreparable fashion.

          3. A Victor says:

            I am not certain i would be as brave, or as wise. I apologize, I shouldn’t have entered the conversation, it is something I have been thinking about though, having my own children and this new knowledge. I have appreciated your and Anm’s thoughts.

          4. WhoCares says:


            You don’t have to apologize. Your input or opinion is welcome. I agree with you: “I think it would be very difficult for many parents to face, to admit even to themselves. It would be devastating”
            I don’t know how I would handle it personally.
            The Empath parent I speak of, sees her child’s behaviour as a fallout of the trauma of being in an abusive family dynamic – which is accurate, in a way. And the professionals who have so far assessed her child are making other determinations and suggesting potential labels other than NPD.
            I have been in denial myself, watching this child objectively, but can’t ignore the emerging patterns.

          5. A Victor says:

            WhoCares, I was just talking with LET about that balancing act on another thread. It is, we all have strengths and weaknesses and, as empaths, I think we all truly do try to do the best we can. I have a daughter who is 34 down to my youngest, a son, who is 18, two daughters in between. They are all doing pretty well despite my failings, which were many, or their father’s failings, and though I can see areas for all of them that I might wish were a bit different, they are all caring, kind and industrious young people who give to the world rather than take. I say this to hopefully encourage, it is hard raising children, especially when we are alone or, worse imo, burdened by having to interact with a parent who does not have the kids best interest at heart. I am very grateful that my ex just left. I think my kids are too. We know families where there is the tug of war and I can’t even imagine how difficult that must be.

            I also have been looking at my children through the narc lens, so to speak. It is interesting to do so and, given their father, not just a little scary. But so far I have only seen signs in one son in law, one of those things I wish was a bit different. I hope your friend gets the information and help she needs for her child.

          6. WhoCares says:

            A Victor,

            Thanks for your post.
            “They are all doing pretty well despite my failings, which were many, or their father’s failings, and though I can see areas for all of them that I might wish were a bit different, they are all caring, kind and industrious young people who give to the world rather than take.”

            That’s so good to hear. And doing that with four kids – wow, I can’t even imagine raising that many!
            One is plenty for me.

            “it is hard raising children, especially when we are alone or, worse imo, burdened by having to interact with a parent who does not have the kids best interest at heart.”

            I agree, and glad your ex left, as well.

            “I hope your friend gets the information and help she needs for her child.”

            Well, the information is close at hand for her – but only if she can recognize the behaviours.

      2. Anm says:

        Whocares, my children are straight up calculated psychopaths. I have first hand experience to confirm this! 😉

        1. WhoCares says:

          Anm, lol, I don’t know what to say to that.

        2. NarcAngel says:

          Lest anyone misunderstand…

          I was really saying that if people thought it was hard to discern that there was something wrong with the narcissist they were involved with and tried to justify their behaviour (pre KTN) that they would be even less likely to suspect it of their children and take any steps to address behaviours. It may be put down to going through a phase or influence from other kids etc. Understandable.

          I did not mean there were a bunch of people here raising psychopaths haha. I do remember someone here once raising the issue that their child may have tendencies toward narcissism and I was surprised at some of the responses they got. They indicated that the person may be expecting too much or reading too much into it. I thought they were brave for raising the possibility and looking for support/answers.

          I have viewed my nephew in this light. I don’t believe either of his parents are narcissists (they are no longer together) but there are narcissists in the family and I believe he was born with the seed. He is the golden (and only) child and my sister seems oblivious to his inappropriate behaviours because she believes she has raised him in an environment opposite to that in which we were raised and is quite proud of the fact. She doesn’t see her father in him because there is no evidence of violence, but I have seen some complex manipulations (for his age), extreme entitlement (that she swats off as being due to having no siblings, and I suspect sexual fluidity, among other things. She hasn’t clued in that she is engaged to a narcissist so she would definitely not see it in her child.

          1. Anm says:

            I agree , NA. I get what you are saying. There is an inclination for parents to reserve using such labels. I totally agree, and could understand why. There is a strong belief amongst many that narcisissism is strictly caused by child abuse. The psychopath joke was just me mentioning how my kids premeditate driving me nuts sometimes, and was a joke.. I think what’s fascinating about the theories here, is that HG and his commenters/readers support varying theories and arguments as to how and why narcisissism can develop. I agree with the genetic predisposition aspect. I have seen others mention this before on here, and have also stated that I too believe my daughter has inherited the psychopathic/narcisisst Gene, but she hasn’t yet, and hopefully won’t develop into a narcissist. This is hard to explain to someone unless someone meets her. But she does look and act just like her sociopath father. It’s like his genes dominated mine or something, but yet she is smarter and sweet The only thing that she inherited from me, seems to be her blue eyes. Which comes from my mother actually. The blue eye gene came from my family lineage, but skipped me. Which further supports your theory that certain genetic predispositions can be passed down to a grandchild, and skip the parent in the process.

          2. WhoCares says:


            I think you have identified some key points regarding both contrast and context.
            Your sister sees a contrast in her child’s behaviour when compared with her father, specifically the lack of physical violence. And also the context, whether a developmental “phase”, situational to a particular environment (i.e. being the “only” child) – wherever there is a contextual explanation, I think that is easier to accept for an empathic parent than the alternative… because that’s what was often done in the earlier familial entanglement or romantic entanglement.
            On a personal note, so many times I contextualized my ex’s behaviour as evidence of a cultural difference and I had been raised to be highly tolerant of those kinds of differences.

  2. lickemtomorrow says:

    Oops, sorry Alexis! I’ve done it before and I’ve done it again *Alexis*

  3. lickemtomorrow says:

    Hi Alexix, I don’t know if this begs the question of narcs and empaths being drawn together somehow, but I’m sure there’s certain places that will draw more of both. We are magnets!

    Do the narcs go where we go or do we go where the narcs are? Little like the chicken/egg scenario.

    1. alexissmith2016 says:

      Hahahah yes, I think all of the areas in my life could be explained as to why both Es and Ns go there.

      But where the fuck do the normals go that’s what I’d like to bloody know?

      They don’t even seem to live in the same neighbourhood? I’m beginning to think it more rare to be a normal!

      Seriously where the hell are they? lol

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Around 50% of people are normal. I think the fact you are in prison at present is not helping matters.

        1. lickemtomorrow says:

          Hahaha, HG 😛

          Maybe Alexis could tell us what she is in for?

          No doubt fighting for empaths rights <3

        2. lickemtomorrow says:

          So if 50% are normal, what percentage are empaths and what percentage are narcissists?

          I have narcs at around 15% and empaths at 35% to make it up to 100% of the population.

          That would be kind of higher than I thought for empaths, although it’s still only a third of the population.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Broadly speaking, 15% for narcissists, 10% for narcissistic people, 25% for empaths, 50% for normals.

          2. lickemtomorrow says:

            Ah, so between actual narcs and narcissistic people (didn’t calculate for those!) their population makes up the equivalent of the empath population – we’re at an even 25% each. At least we exist on an equal playing field.

            I think someone should create the game Empath vs Narc 🙂 In fact, that’s what I would like in my stocking this year if Santa can deliver <3

          3. HG Tudor says:

            Yes but narcissistic people are not narcissists, do not seek The Prime Aims and have emotional empathy.

          4. Asp Emp says:

            “I think someone should create the game Empath vs Narc” – excellent idea.

          5. Asp Emp says:

            LET, have you seen HG’s ‘The Ultra Framework’ video? HG talks about percentages & the Empath – Narcissist spectrum, fascinating video.

          6. lickemtomorrow says:

            The odds are increasing in favour of the empaths 🙂

            I never gave much thought to the grey area there between narcissistic people and actual narcissists. But the fact they have empathy and do not seek the Prime Aims means they are less damaging to empaths. That’s also good news for empaths.

          7. lickemtomorrow says:

            I haven’t seen that video yet, AspEmp, so I will go check it out.

            Thanks for the heads up 🙂

          8. lickemtomorrow says:

            AspEmp, I have listened to the video you mentioned again and it was good to take a refresher 🙂 I think I was a little distracted by the suit the first time round … very chic.

          9. lickemtomorrow says:

            Just getting back to the game, it could be a Snakes & Ladders variety. You could have ladders for the empaths climbing to a final No Contact regime and the snakes are traps laid by the narcissist which mean you fall down in your effort to implement No Contact. Such as the empath gets to climb the ladder for deleting their social media. A roll of the dice has them landing on the snake as they have not blocked the narcissist from their email and down they go again 😛

            Or the Mystery Date game. I forget how that one was played, but I’m sure it could be utilized for educational purposes 🙂

          10. Z - zwartbolleke says:

            “Yes but narcissistic people are not narcissists, do not seek The Prime Aims and have emotional empathy.”
            Mr Tudor I’m sorry I am late in this conversation in catching up.

            1) NarcissitIC people, can they deploy the same sort of narcissistic behaviours, such as shelf behaviour with friends, surrounding themselves with highly empathetic people and empaths, hoovering?
            2) Also you have explained they have emotional empathy but for a smaller group, can that be extensive emotional empathy for animals, and NO empathy at all for children, calling them scum and really hating them?

            If this question is too specific, I will do an e-mail consultation, no problem. The issue is important enough for me to do the consultation.

            Thank you

          11. HG Tudor says:

            1. They can shelf people but for different reasons to that of the narcissist. Yes, they may surround themselves with empaths. No, they do not hoover. Only narcissists hoover.
            2. Narcissistic people have very low emotional empathy. Normals have extensive emoaitonal empathy but for a narrow group. A narcissistic person (not a narcissist) may exhibit empathy towards their animal and no emotional empathy towards children.
            Do organise an email consultation if you would like me to go into further detail about this for you.

        3. Asp Emp says:

          HG, you saying around 50% of people are normal – reminded me of a topic that I came across around in April this year and I will share that another time (I was researching about something else but I found it interesting).

        4. A Victor says:


        5. alexissmith2016 says:

          Hahhaha well there is that, I should have stuck to slaying the mids and lessers and I would never have got caught!

      2. lickemtomorrow says:

        The normals must go where the narcs can’t find them!

        Or they know better than us and avoid the narcs.

        I had a momentary second of wishing I wasn’t an empath there 😛

        It wore off pretty quickly though.

        1. alexissmith2016 says:

          Hmmm now a place that has just normals with their boundaries and general overall healthy attitudes sounds very unappealing hahahah I need to be able to manipulate a narc lol, even if it is short lived.

          Be proud to be an E lickem. I think we sometimes feel we need to ‘succeed’ and climb to the top and achieve power because Ns make us feel that way. But that is only one measure of success and as HG always reminds us, it’s all about perspective

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            Haha, Alexis to manipulating the narcs 😛 Obviously well equipped to do that now that you have been weaponized here. A short lived encounter is the best kind (if you have no other choice 😉 )

            The more I read about empaths here, the prouder I become. HG talks us up quite a bit 🙂 And I’m especially grateful to have found a meeting place with so many other awesome empaths. I don’t think I realized how isolated I felt in that sense until I got here.

            HG does remind us about perspectives and makes empaths feel good about themselves. We can be so broken and bruised when we get here and once we make sense of what has happened, and how we have fallen into the narcissist’s trap, we can let go of the need to be what the narcissist wanted/expected us to be and revel in our own awesomeness x I hope you will revel in some of your awesomeness again today <3

          2. alexissmith2016 says:

            Lickem you’re totally awesome! And it is so wonderful to be part of this group. Ans you’re right we can be so broken and bruised on arrival. It’s so hard to remember what that was like now. Having the knowledge just feels like a normal part of life now and yet for so many years it all felt surreal.
            I remember HG saying how if he were to have children which we know he does not want, he would want them to be an N. I sometimes used to wonder if it was better for my children if they were Ns but I don’t believe so at all and I know I would be completely unable to love an N, related or not. I admire anyone who can. It must be really tough. But yes we all should revel in our awesomeness

          3. lickemtomorrow says:

            I wonder why HG would want his child to be a narcissist? First I heard, and maybe he knows how empaths get crushed by narcissists and that’s why. But then that would be a more emotive response to the notion of having a child. Perhaps HG bases that thought on the idea of success and achievement, so often the remit of narcissists, and the legacy which might ensue from that. I do wonder about the issue of narcs clashing, but HG being the Ultra means he would have the last word either way. What if he had an empath?! Perhaps I’ve let my imagination run far enough for now, though.

            I think you are right about the knowledge becoming like second nature, too. I feel more and more comfortable with it all the time, but it was quite a shock at the start. I can relate to that surreal feeling. Just glad to be here and have found this place <3

          4. njfilly says:


            Is that the definition of a “normal”? A person with good boundaries and general overall healthy attitudes? I have those and I’m an empath.

            Can a person who has suffered narcissistic abuse as a child grow up to be normal rather than empath or narcissist? Does the classification of some people being normal mean that empaths and narcissists are abnormal?

            I don’t know if you know the answers to these questions. I’m only posing them to you since I just read your comment that was talking about normals, so I’m just curious if you know the answers.

          5. alexissmith2016 says:

            Hi NJ, well HG is the expert on personalities, but my understanding is that a normal is not necessarily ‘normal’ ahahah more that they have an equal number amount of empathic/narcisstic traits.

            I definitely don’t have healthy boundaries, much more so now. But certainly, if for example someone needed help, I would go to much greater lengths, sacrificing my own needs and desires in order to help the other person. Where as a normal would help but only if it didn’t put themselves out too much. So I feel pretty confident that most Es don’t have healthy boundaries in the same way a normal would. We may have self respect and be polite, fit within normal/expected conventions but our emapthic traits would drive us to do things a normal wouldn’t and in my case, my narcissistic traits would also drive me to do things a normal perhaps wouldn’t which may not be the case for other Es.

            So its not so much that Es are abnormal of course Ns are definitely abnormal hahahahah but rather some of our traits will drive us to do things which someone with healthy boundaries wouldn’t.

            I have a very good friend who is a normal, whom I like very much. We’ve been friends for years and used to work together regularly. We no longer work together and meet up a few times per year, but he will only meet when it is convenient and works for him occasionally he will put himself out, if we just can’t make our dates agree, but he’d really rather not. Where as I believe most Es would cancel/rearrange other things if they really wanted to see someone. An N most definitely would if they’re in the GP!

            This is my understanding NJ, with a very simple example. Of course, I stand to be corrected.

          6. HG Tudor says:

            Normal have lower numbers of empathic and narcissistic traits, they are not necessarily equal. They do have emotional empathy. Obtain “Understanding Emotional Empathy” from The Knowledge Vault to gain a greater understanding of the comparison of EE between categories.

          7. alexissmith2016 says:

            Thanks HG, yes I do have a copy, it’s been a while and I should go back to it.

          8. njfilly says:


            Interesting. Thank you for your response.

            I’m basically split 50/50 between empathic and narcissistic traits. I would love to see a graph of the different empaths showing their empathic make-up as well as traits. Possibly it is so varied that it couldn’t be shown in one graph.

            I don’t consider sacrificing one’s self to be an unhealthy boundary. Even with the consequences of health or death. I believe what makes it unhealthy is if it isn’t a conscious choice to do so, but rather due to an inability to say “no”. I think the inability to say “no” is a more unhealthy trait than a sacrificial nature. I would say free will might be what makes the difference. I understand this is a grey area, and some people might not be able to determine if they are truly choosing to make the sacrifice, or if they just can’t say no due to the consequences of saying “no”. Although, then it could be argued that they have made a conscious choice by weighing the consequences of each action and choosing what is most important to them. I could go on all day with this, so I’ll end it here!

            I guess that is what separates the empaths from the normals (who, I agree, are not necessarily “normal” since we don’t really know what normal is). The difference being their inability or possibly more, their unwillingness to be self-sacrificing,

            I think conscious sacrifice is a sign of strength equal to saying “no”.

          9. NarcAngel says:

            All the N’s must be orphans because you never hear empaths saying I know my kid is a narc. It’s always empath or normal. There might be some emotional thinking in there.

          10. alexissmith2016 says:

            I’m sure there are some Es who do not recognise their children are Ns, but there are a fair few who do. My ET would definitely not discolour my view even if it was my own children. I wholeheartedly want to see the truth, even if the truth is not what I want to see.

          11. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hi NJF, my brother and sister are both normals as far as I can tell. They have limited empathy and side with my narcissistic mother. I was the scapegoat child and an empath and therefore became a co-dependent. If either of them had the GPD for narcissism one of them may have become a narc due to their more limited capacity for empathy. With good boundaries and healthy attitudes I will still be an empath. And I think the normals just equates to the the majority with regard to the general population who are neither narcs nor empaths. I would not perceive my empathy to be abnormal thing in relation to that, much like narcs will not perceive their narcissism to be abnormal. To my mind it is just a way of defining the population if they have to be segregated into those groupings for the purposes of understanding.

          12. Asp Emp says:

            “I would not perceive my empathy to be abnormal thing in relation to that, much like narcs will not perceive their narcissism to be abnormal” – I like this, well said, I would say

          13. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey LET,

            I’m not overly concerned with the normal aspect of things. Normals represent the majority but I wonder what your thoughts are in relation to the Trait Detector and what those results actually mean as regards functioning happily in relationships and various life scenarios.

            Assume a standard empath scores 55% for empathic traits and 45% for narcissistic traits.

            Assume a Codependent scores 90% for empathic traits and 40% for narcissistic traits.

            Looking at that, my assumption would be that the behaviour of the standard empath would be more in line with that of a normal. As such, a higher chance of a meeting of minds with a partner who is normal.

            The codependent has such high empathy she is a long way off the functioning of the normal. She’s even a long way off the standard empath. So within the empathic group itself there is huge disparity.

            Never a good thing to be at the top end of the scale. Narcissists are functioning from a very different perspective at one end of the scale. Those sitting at the top end of the empathy scale are also likely to struggle to integrate in certain situations I think.

            I’m wondering what causes the problem. Is it the high empathic trait percentage? Or the gap between the percentage of narcissistic and empathic traits that is more important?

          14. lickemtomorrow says:

            I enjoy untangling things, TS, and you always pose some interesting and at times challenging questions 🙂 Oddly enough I came out quite high on narc traits vs empathic traits, but was still higher on empathic. There are so many variables, even amongst empaths, so it’s a tricky question to answer in terms of whether those higher on narc traits would be more likely to end up with a normal. Or if a standard empath would have more chance of a healthy relationships than, say, a co-dependent. I’m not really sure what qualifies as “standard”, but it’s a small percentage of my makeup. What is a much stronger percentage is the co-dependent element which means (to me) this is the reason I have not been able to establish healthy relationships. Combined with that is an strong element of SuperEmpath which is probably my saving grace and likely means this is the reason I also did not stay in those unhealthy relationships. So, from my perspective, our traits do have a very important influence on the relationships we establish and the lasting nature of those. And I think we do struggle to integrate at times. I know I have felt set apart, as opposed to ‘abnormal’, if that makes sense. And I couldn’t make sense of why, but I definitely felt different to the rest of my family and a majority of the population.

            “I’m wondering what causes the problem. Is it the high empathic trait percentage? Or the gap between the percentage of narcissistic and empathic traits that is more important?”

            I have high empathic traits (over 70%), but not a huge gap between those and my narcissistic traits (less than 20% gap) according to my EDT. While I think HG might be the one to answer the question, my guess is that difficulties in relationships could relate to both, depending on what type of empath you are and whether you have a healthy degree of narcissistic traits to offset the empathic ones as necessary.

            Having said all that, I’m glad you asked TS as that’s honed more of my thinking around the issue as well 🙂

          15. alexissmith2016 says:

            Some really interesting points you both make LET and TS. I’ve been thinking about the point you make re feeling abnormal or like you don’t fit in. I used to feel like this too, more so as a child/teen but if you were to have asked my friends/family/acquaintances they would have said I very much fit in. I do wonder how much of it is our perception and sensitivities as an empath.

            So I wonder therefore whether it is our perception? We as empaths have a heightened sensitivity and pick up on cues others simply don’t. For example, I have a friend who I occasionally see at the gym, there is also a superbitch who goes, a regular attender whom I despise. She’s subtly bitchy to me as I am to her, she is to him too and yet he is clueless about it, he thinks she’s really lovely and that she really likes him. He completely fails to pick up on the undertone of what she might be saying and yet to me it is glaringly obvious. She’s an N by the way.

            I suspect it is that we pick up on these things and internalise them where as a non-empath is less likely to. And it gives us this feeling of not fitting in.

          16. A Victor says:

            LET and Truthseeker, I am a majority Standard with a very strong Super minority and I have never had a healthy romantic relationship. I have several non romantic friendships that I would consider very healthy. What changes? The closeness? My expectations? No idea.

            But, I have all of the traits for both N and E, none higher than 16% or lower than 7%. Does the number of traits in a person affect this? I don’t think the percentages to each other should since they are each compared only against themselves.

            Also, strong Savior, significant Carrier and insignificant Geyser, how do those play into it? I wonder if anything really correlates or if it’s as simple as, you’re (inc myself) an empath so you have the addiction. I don’t believe that a Co-dependent cannot have a relationship with someone who has emotional empathy any more or less than myself or a Super. It may look different and some of the work to get there may be different, but I think it’s just as possible.

            I don’t know a lot yet as I’ve not been here long, it’s just interesting so I’ve given it some thought and enjoyed conversations here about it. As such, please correct me as needed. Thanks

          17. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Thank you for your answer. The trait detector fascinates me as you know. I think you’re right. I think the TDC supports the results of the EDC but they are focussed in slightly different ways. You could have a high empathic percentage but how is that empathy targeted? That will impact also.

            In terms of Empathic traits I know that Codependents have them to a high degree. This is why I wanted to pick your brains, being CoD. Generally speaking the Codependent has fewer narcissistic traits and the ones they do have are weaker. This might be full Codependent though. As you said you have a strong representation from SE in your school, which I assume is responsible for your comparatively higher narcissistic traits and smaller percentage gap between the two sets of traits. Minority elements clearly have an influence on our behaviour. I know you weren’t thrilled with your school but similarly I don’t think you operate just as CoD. As you said, likely why you get out.

            Your description of feeling set apart. Mine of the pointlessness of sharing my thoughts with people. The two sound similar and I think the answer lies in the TDC. I don’t think this is imagination on our part. I think there is a genuine disconnect.

            We agree there are marked differences between empaths themselves, before you even consider the normals. They carry fewer empathic and narcissistic traits. I think they therefore have less gap between the two. They can’t have a large difference, otherwise they would be empathic or narcissistic and not normal.

            It fascinates me. So many combinations. I do wonder also at which point our empathy becomes a hindrance. Where the threshold for that lies and exactly how it manifests.

            Thank you for sharing your thoughts LET. Xx

          18. lickemtomorrow says:

            You’re welcome, TS <3

            I've adjusted to the idea of being CoD and what that means for me. Danger!

            Maybe how our empathy is targeted relates to our Cadres and my majority there is Saviour. So I kind of know how my empathy is targeted if that is correct. I definitely relate to that.

            I agree there is a disconnect in feeling set apart and I've become more disconnected since my last narc. I'm not sure if you're the same, but from what you've said you have always had a sense of disconnection, which probably means you've had an awareness of your empathy without knowing exactly what it was and how it operates. The last narc made me realize that I'm a prime candidate for abuse and I have greatly sheltered myself after coming to that realization. At least until I can become better weaponized. I'm like a wounded animal and won't allow others (apart from my children) to be close to me right now. Even though I am feeling better, I just don't want to expose myself. Not yet. Not sure when I'll be ready. But I don't put pressure on myself that way. I had so many plans at the start of the New Year this year and then Covid! They all went to the wall along with my relationship. Let's hope for new beginnings in 2021 <3

            I'm guessing our empathy becomes a hindrance when there are people who would take advantage of that. We are in the process of learning how to weed them out. The threshold will be different for each of us and how it manifests dependent on all the things we have already talked about (school/cadre). Self awareness is a huge step in the right direction for feeling more confident when we are ready to interact again. And thankfully we have HG in our corner when we need a booster shot xox

          19. lickemtomorrow says:

            It is very interesting to explore our results and try to understand the meaning behind them more fully. I think I just focus for the most part on my majority school (CoD) in terms of what that signifies (serious addiction to the narcissist) and my majority cadre (LET to the rescue!) I know how it has appeared in past relationships, so I would also use that to help increase my understanding. Learning from past mistakes. How did my empathic traits appear in those relationships? Push me forward? Increase my vulnerability? Ensure my ensnarement? Also what type of narc was I drawn to and why (narc school and cadre) ?

            I see you also have an element of SE, AV, which has me wondering if this is more common amongst those who had a narcissistic parent. Question for HG.

            I honestly don’t know what a healthy relationship looks like. And oddly, I don’t seem to have drawn those who weren’t narcissists which probably goes to me discounting anyone who wasn’t a narc! They didn’t fit my template for relationships. So now I have to draw up a new template for relationships. What would that look like? I don’t know. What I am learning is what to avoid which puts me in a much better position to find what is right. It’s a process and lengths of time may vary.

            And I don’t think there is any correct way of thinking as much as there is an enlightened way of looking at things, AV xox

          20. HG Tudor says:

            I recommend that you access “Understanding Emotional Empathy” from The Knowledge Vault.

          21. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I think I can identify with all you have said.

            Withdrawing from the dating scene and giving yourself time I only see as being a sensible thing, an intelligent thing. I know what you mean with the wounded animal. I’m similar. Go to my corner and draw up the walls. I don’t see anything wrong with that. You’ll come out when you are ready and not before. X

            I like your thoughts on the question about empathy becoming a hindrance. I see what you mean, it’s about who takes advantage of it. I do think there is wiggle room within our own traits though too. I know we can’t turn traits off but I would like to have better control of those traits rather than allowing them to have control of me. That’s down to behaviour I think, plus understanding the schools and cadres and how they came to be there.

            I see what you mean about being a prime candidate for abuse. As empaths, in many ways, we all are. I do think your SE element has kicked in for you though. Self awareness as you say is huge. You were a prime target. That might have continued had you not arrived here. You did arrive here though. Now you do know and I agree, now you can do something about that, when the time is right to start over with someone new. This is also what I’m driving at. How to cherry pick the beautiful side of the Codependent with the protection of the SE. To use what we all have naturally, to the fullest advantage.

            Basically, I want to be a force to be reckoned with! Leaner, fitter, faster, weaponised to the back teeth!!

            I know a man who can help with that! Lovely.

          22. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I probably don’t know too much more about the workings of the Detectors than you do.

            I’m fascinated by them though. People have been chatting about their results of late and it has got me thinking about the results and what we can do with them.

            My understanding might be flawed here but I imagine HG will set me straight if I wander too far from the correct path.

            As a Standard Empath I would expect your total percentage for empathic traits to be lower than the percentage for a Codependent or Super Empath. With regard to your narcissistic traits I would expect these to be lower in strength than the Super Empath but higher in strength than a Codependent.

            The minority schools seem to throw this off a little though. So a Codependent with a significant Super minority element will gain narcissistic traits and in greater strength, than a Codependent without a Super minority element to their school. So in terms of the TDC trait percentages, your EDC minority elements count. I would agree with this personally and LET’s results seem to suggest this also.

            The EDC is more straightforward I think. Your school is your driver. To a degree, an empath is an empath, all have higher empathy than normals. All have the addiction. The school differentiation relates more to what lengths the individual will go to, to action the empathy. The Codependent being most self sacrificing and the Super being highly empathic, thus goes the extra mile, but more selective in how the empathy is spent and when it is withdrawn.

            CoD and Super are wired very differently I think. Similarly this higher level of self sacrifice separates the CoD from the Standard Empath. The validation through giving to the extent that this becomes the identity of the CoD is very different to the mindset of the Standard Empath and Super Empath. The empathy selectiveness and higher narc traits of the Super Empath in turn separate this empath from the Standard Empath.

            So where does it leave the three schools in terms of relationships with normals? We can see how the three schools interact on the blog within the empathic group. There are definite differences in the way the schools interact in my view. That’s not to say I could pick out schools for people. Just that I recognise differences.
            Honestly, I do think there might be an element of disconnect between empath and normal. That might be my biased opinion, so I’m looking at the TDC as a means to prove or disprove.

            Lastly cadre. To me this means how your empathy shows itself. How it is spent. Channeled in one direction, to a smaller group or broader group. A doer or a motivator. Emotions shown or hidden etc. Not so much to do with strength of empathy but rather how that empathy is displayed. Irresistible triggers. Saviours are easier to spot I think. Watch a stray narc wander in and criticise HG’s work and see how the Saviours fly in. Irresistible trigger! Literally.

            That’s roughly where I’m at. I’m questioning how much we can influence our own empathic make up. How parts could be dialled up or down at will with practice. I’m questioning my quirks and faults and looking at how to tweak them. I find this place entirely comfortable and love being amongst my kind. Being an empath is a beautiful thing and we see it in practice here every day on the blog.

            When looking at relationships, healthy or otherwise I think there are other things in play. It isn’t solely the empathic make up. It’s environment also. Parental narcs, sibling narcs, early narc relationships that set a norm so people didn’t even get the chance to know what healthy is. Chance, circumstance, the wrong place at the wrong time. The addiction, lack of awareness, the fact we were oblivious to our own soaring ET, stressors that impact our emotional empathy. So many variables, many of which we are growing to recognise and understand. We have to look back to understand but I feel increasingly confident that through the information available here, we can evolve to be far stronger, happier and more successful than we have been previously.

            If any of this is factually incorrect AV, I apologise. This is just how I summarise and understand it.

          23. lickemtomorrow says:

            “How to cherry pick the beautiful side of the Codependent with the protection of the SE. To use what we all have naturally, to the fullest advantage.”

            That was beautifully said, TS <3 And very encouraging and inspiring. Thank you.

            I haven't thought much about the possibility of fine tuning things at this point, but it is a thought for the future and a very worthwhile one.

            "Basically, I want to be a force to be reckoned with! Leaner, fitter, faster, weaponised to the back teeth!!

            I know a man who can help with that! Lovely."

            You do indeed know someone who can help with that and I'd say you're well on your way 🙂 I'd also say you're already a force to be reckoned with in terms of your finely tuned Truthseeker traits. They shine through and I don't think anyone will be getting anything past you any time soon. Definitely becoming more weaponized as we speak. Those back teeth won't have long to wait!

            I will say it's nice to have people here who understand and this is my other 'safe space' for now. I referred to my children, but this is one other place where the drawbridge has been let down and I can thankfully allow the healing to begin <3

          24. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Thank you so much for your message. You are always so supportive of me and my ideas, always lend me your ear and your opinion and always with an open mind and heart.

            I’m very thankful to have you walking beside me. Xx

          25. lickemtomorrow says:

            Thank you for your very kind words, TS. I could say the same about you and am thankful for your company and support on this journey, too xox

            We owe it to ourselves to have the merriest Christmas ever! I hope you do x

          26. Truthseeker6157 says:


            We really do deserve a nice Christmas. I’m fortunate in that I’m in a Tier 2 area, so I get to see my parents over Christmas. Many are in Tier 4 which essentially is a full lockdown. No friends, no family.
            I intend to make the most of my limited freedom. I actually am looking forward to a small quiet Christmas for a change.

            I hope you have a great Christmas LET, and a safe, healthy New Year for you and yours xx

          27. lickemtomorrow says:

            Great point, Alexis, and no doubt we are more sensitive when it comes to picking up on things. I can totally relate to your experience with the bitchy N and how a normal may not pick up on these things the way we do. It frustrates me no end when people can’t see through a narc and no doubt the more subtle they are the more they go under the wire. I’ve been caught out initially at times, but often it doesn’t take too long for their true colours to show through, at least for the empath. Once I am aware I avoid them at all costs. So our sensitivities do set us apart, but in a good way in terms of our awareness and the need for avoidance. Just goes to show how slimy the narc can be in conning us.

          28. alexissmith2016 says:

            Yes it is frustrating when others don’t see it LT. I used to think I saw through everyone, and I tbink most female Ns I did. But there were actually quite a few I didn’t. As for guys, I only ever saw through the really obvious lessers. It’s been a real eye opener this narc lens HG has given us.

        2. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Hey Alexis,

          I’m not sure about others. I don’t feel as if I don’t fit in. In fact I can fit in with pretty much anyone. What I feel is a lack of depth from people I interact with. I like them, don’t get me wrong, I love some too, but similarly I don’t see the point of sharing innermost thoughts. They don’t get it and worse, I can feel they don’t get it. So in this sense there is a disconnect. They can share with me and it works. I can’t share with them. I can go 50% depth if you like, but there’s no point going 60%.

          I take your point about internalising. I think when I was younger I was more concerned about whether or not I fit in and I agree a lot of that is in your head. I moved between groups really had one foot in the A girl’s group and one foot in the geek’s camp. I know I was hot though! Particularly after my perm! Ha ha.

      3. A Victor says:

        I am very curious about this also.

    2. A Victor says:

      Haha, LET, given the whole stalking scenario, I tend to think they follow us.

      My daughter, 99% sure she’s an empath, has been studying narcissism as one of her friends has classic narc traits all over the place, today asked me “Are we some kind of magnet for them?!” I laughed! I have been trying to get her to come to this site but she’s resistant. I mentioned the possibility of her dad being one though and she was very receptive to that, I was pleasantly surprised. I am hoping they can learn about narcissism and perhaps understand a bit better why their dad made certain choices along the way.

      1. lickemtomorrow says:

        I think your daughter is very finely attuned already and no doubt she’s an empath <3

        We are definitely magnets, and I think they know where to find us. Some of their professions put them in direct contact with empaths or vulnerable people (such as doctors, ministers, etc.) so that's a given. I guess a lot depends on the type of narc.

        I have not broached the subject of narcissism with my kids in relation to their father. There is a lot of water under the bridge as we separated when they were very young, so I'm raising their awareness of narcissism while hoping they will come to their own conclusions. It would be hard to convince them when they had so little contact with him, although what they did have, and still do have, would no doubt throw up some red flags if brought into the full light of day. I'm hoping they will initiate the conversation one day. And maybe in some ways I am still protecting him. Ugh.

        1. A Victor says:

          LET, your concerns/hesitations regarding talking to your children are some that I’ve had also. I don’t want to put ideas in their heads but rather have information known and they can decide.

          I did approach this daughter only because she is most open to the idea of narcissism in general and I hope that at some point my kids will at least consider the idea. She was very sad because she said “I have it on both sides of my family then.”, probably thinking about future children but also herself. I was able to reassure her that if she were, it would’ve been done already and she is not, imo. Also, it opened the discussion to how narcissism comes to be and that was very good.

          Like you, in time I hope the rest of my children will at least hear some of these things and they can come to their own conclusions They are all adults and have literally seen him combined between them 4 times over the course of the last 10 years, so his ongoing proximate impact has been extremely limited.

          I think all of my children tend toward being empaths more than normal, except maybe one daughter, and it would be good for their own protection, from him as well as others, to understand this as well. And they would be better armed for raising their children in an environment not conducive to narcissism. So many thoughts about all of this. Thank you for yours and for the discussion of it!

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hi AV, you gave me pause to think about how I approach this issue with my children. I know how I feel with my new understanding, and that is that I want them to know and understand, too, but at the same time I know it would be difficult for them.

            They have all achieved a level of ongoing contact with him where physical distance from the time they were younger means his behaviours have not been able to impact more fully on them. You could call this the downside of an early escape or separation because he has a much greater ability to present himself as the “good father” in the circumstances. They are gaining in awareness around the fact of my/our escape, knowing they are better off, but at the same time his desire and ability to maintain contact (i.e. control) means they are still able to be influenced.
            I can’t and don’t want to interfere in their relationship with him as they are young adults now and that would just make me the bad guy, but the interesting thing is they will point out his behaviours at times and reflect on them.

            The eldest, high on narc traits, will stand up to him now (no longer the Golden Child as she has developed a very strong and independent personality), my middle daughter, high on empathic traits, will ‘go with the flow’ (in order not to cause any upset) and my son is middling between the two. I feel their dad only uses them all for his own purposes (as narcs are wont to do), but I don’t know how I could tell them that. I could take so many examples of things that have happened and couple them with the narcissistic dynamic by way of explanation, but I’m not sure they would hear it or see it. They would accept he behaved badly, but I don’t think they are ready, willing or able to apply a label. And part of that could be my fault. I’ve brought them up with a more empathic way of thinking which doesn’t allow for them to pass judgement and I’ve also ‘protected’ him by making allowances for him at times due to my own empathic nature. They may never put two and two together, but if ever I felt any of them were under any kind of threat from him it would be a different story.

            I think we are on the same page as far as raising awareness with our kids goes, AV, and it seems you have one very receptive daughter with whom the information can be shared. That is a great opportunity and either way it means we are giving them the ability to arm themselves a little better. I did raise with my eldest daughter that her friend’s boyfriend was a narc (as you know) and the hope is the conversation can come round to that again. The lack of contact your children have had with their father will also have opened up a space for the conversation to occur. They will wonder what kind of father walks away and doesn’t look back. And even more precious is that they will have an explanation for their experience which will lessen some of the wounding that has occurred. I think it’s important to point that out.

            My children, in some ways, are still in the midst of their entanglement, but with a far lesser impact for now. When something happens, now or in the future, there will be an opportunity for me to raise the spectre of narcissism with them as a means of explanation, and I would hope to do the same in terms of lessening their wounding with the new understanding that would bring. I’m also glad for the awareness it raises for future generations and the ability we have to stand in the gap in that sense. Knowing genetically there may be a predisposition allows us to do that. I’m grateful to HG again today for that knowledge re: GPD and LOCE x

          2. A Victor says:

            It is like walking a tightrope sometimes, being a parent. And that exact part of parenting, along with sibling squabbles, was the most challenging for me, I have an extremely difficult time making decisions.

            That daughter is the same one who picked up on the summer narc. She has learned a lot through some very traumatic experiences. I hope she can get away from all the narcs she knows at some point.

            Thanks for your thoughts around this, it is a sensitive thing certainly.

  4. Asp Emp says:

    It never ends. Not with a narcissist, who needs it. It is the strength of an empath that a narcissist needs – the ‘under-pinning’ – the support and the strength of that ‘support’ that gives the narcissist the ‘power’ to ‘survive’. When in fact, it is the empath’s ‘power’ that gives the narcissist the ‘element of control’ that they never had the opportunity to have when they needed it the most – when they were a very vulnerable individual – as a child. The young child (narcissist) did not have the ‘protection’ that they needed at that time, so that they ‘became’ what they are.

    I am speaking from experience, my own ‘life’ experiences. So I understand the ‘vulnerabilities’ of a narcissist. However, I did not become a narcissist myself. I did not develop ‘needs’ to be in “control” of other people – I was easily ‘manipulated’ all my life. Until I understood why, how and what I was being ‘victimised’ by cruel and ignorant people (bearing in mind, around 95% narcissists are unaware of what they are and I blame science / medical for fkg it up so much). They have “left” it to HG, expected him to ‘note it all down’. Yet these so called “experts” have not yet realised it, as yet. FFS, HG deserves a holiday! He deserves international recognition. Even better. Authority.

    Yes, narcissism has created so much hurt, so much chaos, so much confusion, so much BS, so much upheaval, so much damage on the environment, so much division in the population (‘Equality Act’; Human Rights Act, etc). The list is FAR too long to list here.

    ALL BECAUSE SCIENCE HAS NOT FKG SORTED IT. Science is fkg mathemetical. End of. Politics, Laws etc have absolutely NOTHING to do with science. These so called “scinetitsts” need to get their fkg ACT TOGETHER and do hell of a lot of SUMS. It’s genetics. It’s carbons. It’s MATHEMETICAL. FFS. Get those anal probes out and do some fkg work! Fucking Hell. (thank you, HG, for moderating this comment – sorry, let me retract that – this RANT). Goodnight all. And you, HG x

    1. lindseymarie says:

      You’re so right. Narcissism is such a destructive force in society, in families, in human hearts and minds that it frustrates me more people don’t get it or even WANT to be educated on it. Emotional abuse is a foreign, uncomfortable and off limits concept to most people which is why this isn’t going away anytime soon. It will be passed down from generation to generation. HG is truly doing God’s work here informing people to protect themselves. Maybe one day science and society will give it the attention it deserves but I don’t see that happening anytime soon . There is such a stigma about labeling someone a narcissist that people refuse to even acknowledge that it’s a possibility someone could be a narcissist and the abused person is seen as the problem.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        Thank you so much for taking my rant on board and for your comment in response. Absolutely brilliant to see your words. Thank you 🙂

      2. A Victor says:

        Lindseymarie, “the abused person is seen as the problem” – which adds to the abuse. I have experienced this, as I’m sure many here have, that person who should be helping you is blind to the reality of what is happening, because the narcissist wants it this way as well as the stigma etc. It is such a hurtful thing and educating people is the only way I see to change it, slow as that change will be. And, like swimming up a stream backwards as we have not only the stigma to overcome but also the narcissists.

        1. alexissmith2016 says:

          A Victor I completely understand your desire to educate other people about how the victim is not the abuser and has just been smeared by the narc. Our desire for the truth to out is insatiable.

          It can work some times, but many times, people simply do not care. they like a bit of gossip and will gossip regardless, or say it takes two and it’s never just one person’s fault etc etc.

          I found it very hard to do this, but much better to actually forget about trying to convince others that it wasn’t me, it was him. Just hold my head up high, think that I know the truth and so do they. If you carry on as you are people will see the true you anyway and make up their own mind and if they don’t, do you really want to know them anyway – fuck em!

          1. A Victor says:

            Hi Alexissmith2016, no, I didn’t mean defend my smearing, or anyone else’s. Only that education about narcissism at large, the big picture of it, the fact that it exists and is quite prevalent in our world, is what I was referring to educating about.

            I was seriously smeared by my ex for at least 2 months before he left, I didn’t even find out about it until some time after he’d gone, and then only bits and pieces. After a year or two, people came and apologized to me for believing him, people I hadn’t even known he’d said anything to. But, there was no way to defend myself so I never tried, it was a lost cause until his own actions proved him to have been the one in the wrong. I did feel vindicated when this happened but not ever vengeful nor did I try to take it on to untangle it.

            There was a time or two that we met with my then pastor after my ex left, at the pastor’s request. My husband had already filled his head and so the meeting(s) went terribly, I knew nothing about ET or narcissism at that time so I ended up looking like my ex’s smearing was appropriate. So be it. That pastor was one who was telling me to keep trying in the marriage, I wasn’t even the one who’d left, nor was on drugs etc. So his “counsel” to me was more damaging than helpful. But there was no point in attempting to “educate” that pastor, he wouldn’t have heard it. I left that church not much after.

            Anyway, I am very much pro-education about narcissism and am most thankful for HG’s work in this arena, I hope it is widely published, read and has good effect on our world at large, that is all.

          2. alexissmith2016 says:

            I’m sorry to hear that A Victor, the pastor definitely does not sound like someone worth educating at all. I’m pleased you didn’t feel vengeful. I did to some degree, but I certainly would not go out of my way to do anything, more opportunistic and I’ve certainly had some fun with it. I have a bit of a collection building up. But whilst these are things which would deeply wound a narc, not something so vengeful that a normal would be affected. I do have some cracking ones though which I may well share at some stage in the future. I just can’t help it. Not sure which trait this vengeful streak is linked to? Pride? Justice?

          3. A Victor says:

            Alexissmith2016, you are correct, that pastor is a waste of time as far as education. I just had to see him, he did my father’s funeral, and I keep thinking, only one more time, at my mother’s funeral. Then I’m rid of him for good. Thank you for clarifying my initial comment, I wouldn’t want any victim to try to educate regarding a smear, that would be hurtful. I look forward to your stories if you decide to share! And I am highest in pride, second in vanity, medium in justice. Not sure how all the traits fit yet, excited to learn more about them as we can. But no, never vengeful, I just want my personal freedom from people that are bad.

          4. You’re very wise AV, not feeling the need for vengeance is the best way to be. I am learning lol

          5. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hi AV, when I read your comment about your pastor, all I could think was that you were being victimized all over again. That’s how I would have experienced it, too. And I would have been deeply upset. In fact, its upsetting just reading about it.

            I’m sorry that happened to you and I appreciate you sharing x

          6. A Victor says:

            LET, thanks. I wanted to punch him. And I’m not a physical person like that at all.

          7. A Victor says:

            AS2016, well, I did want to punch that pastor! Lol!!

          8. Hahhaha if I ever meet him I’ll punch him on your behalf xx

          9. lickemtomorrow says:

            Completely understand, AV. I would have wanted to punch him, too! It’s sickening when someone tries to turn it back on you and continues to make you responsible for what is happening and in doing so puts the onus on you to try and fix it. I’m sure the narc is laughing inside to think how they’ve got away with it again. Whether the pastor (or any counsellor) is the useful dupe – and we know HG has written about how the game can be played by the narc in that situation – or they ultimately do not have your best interests at heart – they follow the tenets of their beliefs without any qualifiers – it’s all designed to work out in the narcissist’s favour. It’s incredibly invalidating and your sense of fight back tells me you refuse to be invalidated any more. That’s a good thing. I remember actually voicing on one occasion that I wanted to rip somebody’s throat out, and I meant it. If I had got near this person I could have guaranteed an absolute explosion. Nothing would have held me back. I found other channels to express my angst, but none of them were sufficient. And that relates more to establishment politics – a David and Goliath scenario if you will – as opposed to a purely personal one. It’s hard to fight the establishment. But narcissism is in its own way an establishment and that’s what makes it so hard to fight. It has garnered a place in our world where it is able to remain hidden in plain sight. There’s nothing more disconcerting than that. While it is visible everywhere, it still goes unrecognized. I hate that about narcissism. And I despise the enablers who brush it aside as though it does not have the impact it so obviously does in people’s lives. Maybe they don’t recognize it for what it is, just like we didn’t. But, I’m running out of excuses for people who at the same time refuse to be educated. It needs to be front and centre in terms of raising awareness and in light of all the people who have been affected. Conversely, perhaps I’m just living in my own little bubble, and in isolating myself have come to see it as more of an issue that it actually is for the majority of the population. Maybe being an empath has left me raw and wounded to an extent most others would not feel the same kind of pain or passion about the ‘project’. Either way, I’ll keep talking about it and trying to get the word out there. There’s nothing more powerful than a personal testimony.

          10. A Victor says:

            Haha, Alexissmith2016, a smoking nun striding up and punching him square in the nose and striding away again, this is a hilarious picture in my mind!! Thank you!!

          11. A Victor says:


            “…Conversely, perhaps I’m just living in my own little bubble, and in isolating myself have come to see it as more of an issue that it actually is for the majority of the population…” I am with you on wondering about this, empaths don’t make up the majority and we are not necessarily the most vocal nor the most respected (we’re “victims” seen as trying to defend ourselves, not always a place of power from which to present these things), by normals or (obviously) narcissists, when we do speak. So, until it becomes undeniable to the majority, I suspect it will continue to go under the radar. Unless HG, with our help via word of mouth, can continue to spread the truth of it or unless a doctor or scientist decides to acknowledge it and help in that spread, .

            That said, I am so grateful for the knowledge on a personal level because I have so much more power and options to protect myself whether or not anyone else believes the truth.

          12. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, I never thought much about the ‘minority’ thing in terms of empaths before I said it, but what you said makes even more sense in terms of the odds being against us and no doubt the focus should probably be strengthening ourselves initially The rest will likely flow out from that and your sense of gratefulness is shared x

          13. alexissmith2016 says:

            I think where I work the places I hang out in tend to be full of Ns or Es very few normals to be seen?

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