This Mindset Equals Victory

154 thoughts on “This Mindset Equals Victory

  1. doforluv1 says:

    at this point I just don´t care anymore , I don´t want to be someones ´´entertainment´´ , cut narcissists off when I see the first redflag over it ! completely

  2. Asp Emp says:

    I came across this site – it has nothing to do with narcissism. And, I have not joined this site. Has anyone else come across it? Mindvalley.com. Have a look at their site and decide for yourself.

  3. Duchessbea says:

    HG, I’m lying in bed reading your work and listening to your audio videos. While my other half is away, I’m bringing you to bed with me. (Shush).
    I know you hate ‘soppy stuff’, but I’m feeling overwhelmed with emotions tonight. All good emotions for you.
    I am so thankful to you for all your brilliant, excellent advice. You have helped thousands of people. You have no idea, how just reading one of your articles or listening to one of your audio videos helps massively.
    You have helped me immensely and I am so grateful to you and always will be for that. You devote countless hours to answering questions and advising everyone on all aspects of your kind.
    Thank you. 💗

  4. mommypino says:

    I’m at the point that even the thought of receiving apology from them is so bland that I actually hope that I don’t receive one and we can just continue to live our separate lives. And that the thought doesn’t even come up naturally.

    1. A Victor says:

      Mommypino, my ex never apologized, not once in 24 years. My mother always apologizes and it’s always a manipulation. Separate lives, the best route to go, I agree.

  5. Francine says:

    The opposite of love is not hate It is indifference

    1. MB says:

      Francine, I agree. When you hate a person you used to love, it’s still a passion, there are still feelings for them. When you truly feel nothing is when you know you don’t love them anymore.

  6. NarcAngel says:

    I prefer Entity instead of It.

    Z.E.R.O Impact viewed as a Zero Entity Retention Objective?

    1. NarcAngel says:

      And being achievable.

    2. Truthseeker6157 says:

      NA,

      If you say entity, we’re hurtling into Jezebel spirit territory! We know how that goes.
      Pea soup all over the place.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        I refuse to allow that crackpot community to own the word.

        Definition of entity (Merriam Webster)
        1: BEING, EXISTENCE
        especially : independent, separate, or self-contained existence

        2 : something that has separate and distinct existence and objective or conceptual reality:

        I just like it better than IT, in the same way I prefer Target to Victim. To each their own.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Fine, I’ll go with Basket.

          They’re empty vessels save for what you put into them.
          They can be cheap or elaborate.
          They can hide a lot of shit.
          Their lids are easily flipped.
          They’re good for a load.

          And I think we can all agree they’re a real picnic.

          Basket. Final answer.

          1. Intrepid Traveller says:

            Now there’s a new thought for the old saying “basket case”. I like it

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:

            I had a really cute dog called basket.

            (Kidding !)

          3. WhoCares says:

            “Basket. Final answer.”

            Haha – awesome.

      2. Sweetest Perfection says:

        Exorcism!

      3. WhoCares says:

        “Pea soup all over the place.”

        Pahaha!

  7. Asp Emp says:

    As I was reading through this video, when you started talking about ‘appliances’, (HG, you know how I think at times)…. I started laughing because when, say, one of my household appliances is not functioning properly, I start shouting at it….. why? Why am I shouting at it? It is not a living thing. It is not logical yet an emotional response from me to my “faulty appliance”.

    Then again, I suppose I can understand and appreciate the mind-sets of the narcissists of my past when their “appliance” (me) was not “functioning” in their perception. Yet, as my experiences at their ‘treatment’ of me was not acceptable in my perception.

    When you suggest that we (as listeners / readers of this particular video) – to see the narcissist as a ‘thing’ – that is precisely how I view the ones in my past. I mentioned it in another thread the other day – there is nothing I have in my house belonging to any of them, or view anything that was mother’s – no sentimental attachments.

    I would have loved the chance of putting up post-it-notes ‘the narcissist does not exist’ around the work place – damn, missed my opportunity by well over a year.

    This video (in my opinion) is one of the best I have seen you do, HG.

    1. A Victor says:

      Asp Emp, the piece of how we kick the malfunctioning appliance struck me as well, it gave a good insight into their thinking about us. Most interesting.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        Yes it is a good video.

      2. A Victor says:

        PS- I don’t kick my appliances. Just saying.

        1. Asp Emp says:

          I do – into my garage…… laughing…… it’s a faulty appliance…..

  8. Truthseeker6157 says:

    I’m afraid I have mixed feelings about this. The single piece I don’t agree with. Don’t get me wrong, I can see the thinking behind it, but I disagree with that thinking. In fact, it has made me angry.

    The first part, I’m good with, eradication. Yep, get that, understood, fully agree. I can feel the benefit of that application for myself and others instrumental in my recovery thus far.
    The second part, to view the narcissist as a thing, as an it. No. Thank you, but no. I hate the narcissist being described as an ‘it’. I don’t even like the phrase ‘what I am’. No, not what, who. I can live with that for the purposes of articles and explanations but the ‘it’, I reject that.

    I think Zero impact can be achieved for some, not all empaths. I think it largely depends on trait make up and empathic to narcissistic ratios and percentages. So I object to the Zero impact as being the indicator of freedom, or ‘success’. I don’t think it is achievable for all so some empaths will perceive that as a falling short or a failure.

    I do not regard my narcissist as an ‘it’. I do not regard you HG as an ‘it’. That sets my teeth on edge to be frank. I am not a narcissist, I do not compartmentalise, dehumanise, devalue, or degrade. That’s your choice, easy to do given absence of emotional empathy. What about the empaths and codependents sitting at the high end of the empathy scale? You don’t know how that feels, you understand it, but you don’t feel it.

    I haven’t achieved zero impact. I likely won’t achieve it. Certainly not if I have to dehumanise to do it. I agree with everything else I have read or listened to but not this. I am at the limit of my recovery I think. It has been 7.5 months No Contact. This is as good as it gets, for me at least. I think it’s realistic. I think it’s manageable. I think I held on to my humanity. Life goes on.

    I’m not a narcissist. I can’t be turned into one.

    Bad review. Best stick me in the naughty corner, Asp would only break me out of the dungeon anyway.

    1. BC30 says:

      Powerful statement.

    2. Asp Emp says:

      Hello TS, I read your comment and I understand your thoughts. I don’t necessarily disagree with you – because I have stated in my comments that narcissists are people. So, in some way, I am contradicting myself. We all do, in one way or another. That is human nature (in my opinion).

      You may be right, not all empaths may be able to achieve ‘zero impact’ when it comes to narcissists in their past. I have been able to do this, in fact, when my friend (Xmas Eve – 5 min visit outside my front door) mentioned ‘it’ to me, I ‘deflected’ by saying something like “as soon as you have started your new job, I would go NC with all of them”.

      In my opinion, HG is right because we, empaths, are not tvs or washing machines etc. I would always view HG as a person – never as an ‘it’. That would never happen.

      Having said that, I reckon Ronald McDonald has a dual personality and the one that appears in scary places is one to the be worried about 😉

      Erm, I’d consult with HG in relation to whether I should assist you in getting out of the dungeon, HG may not let me out either (laughing)…..

      1. Truthseeker6157 says:

        Truth. Ronald Mc Donald not to be trusted. The creepometer went off the scale when Ronald graced our screens.

        Hang on,

        You would consult with HG to decide whether or not you should bust me out of the dungeon?! Is it just me spotting the deliberate mistake here?!

        I was relying on you Asp….

        ( ha ha, xx)

        1. Asp Emp says:

          Yes, correct, that clown was creepy as hell. I was also referring to the film called ‘It’…. another clown with a red balloon….

          Yes, I would consult with HG. Because, if I helped you out of the dungeon, he’d fling me in there for doing so! Maybe he wouldn’t.

          So, I think we need to “good” (for a bit anyway 😉 )

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp,

            Laughing now. See? I even reject the Stephen King version!

            Ok, I will endeavour to be good.

            Could you DHL me a duvet, some Revels and a case of Red Bull though please? This corner is draughty, the food isn’t up to much and I’m probably best off planning for the worse case scenario.

          2. Asp Emp says:

            TS,
            Laughing….. laughing……. actually, I think I’ll need my duvet, so I’ll hang onto that for now….. I may have a spare one somewhere…. I’ll wrap up and get warm with some Tudor Tales….. enjoy your Revels 😉

    3. Sweetest Perfection says:

      TS, I disagree with you. Zero impact is the only way you realize you are free because you don’t give a fuck anymore whether the narc is alive or dead and it can be achieved by everyone if you apply NC correctly, regardless of your school and cadre. You telling yourself you can’t and won’t ever achieve it is already an indication that you have to fight your ET. Objectifying the narcissist helps you stop projecting emotions around that person and thus, helps you detach from him/ her. But you have a right to not like the video, I just don’t understand why you don’t believe you or others will never achieve that objective. It can be achieved.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Correct.

      2. Truthseeker6157 says:

        Hey SP,

        I’m glad you have achieved Zero Impact. I think many empaths will. I also think the passage of time feeds into that too.

        Not meaning to suggest that it can’t be attained for most, just not for all. Not all of us have the same stories entanglements and devaluations. Comparatively, my devaluation was a walk in the park, if in fact it even was a proper devaluation. That’s just my personal view. I expected ET to be called on that one. Not the case but I can see why it would be viewed that way.

        The eradication of the narcissist through No Contact I agree with. Learning about narcissism through HG’s accurate work ensures the realisation that empaths come off worst as far as entanglements go. I agree with all of the work surrounding that and the deletion of past narcissists from your life to achieve healing and reduced ET, which actually is the majority of the video.

        However, I wholeheartedly disagree with objectification as a concept. Again a personal view. That’s a narcissist trick in my book. Black and white thinking feeds into that too. I don’t think in black and white at all. This poses me a problem, several problems. At what point do I classify a narc as an ‘it’. First time he raises his voice? First time he shoves me out of the way? First time my kids run in and hide behind me because he yelled? Does that constitute ‘it’ ? If so which bit? When? I can tell you I experienced all three with a non narc. So is the non narc ‘it’ as well? Or just narcs? Who gave me power to judge if someone is to be objectified with a side of dehumanisation? That implies I am better than he, him or her. Am I? By whose standards? My empathic perspective? Because it’s the majority perspective? My perspective is the right one? Are we sure?

        Is HG an‘ it’ as well? Or is it just my narc? Because he was personal. Because if my narc is an ‘it’, then surely I have to class your narc as an ‘ it’ as well and so on. Where did the compassion go? Narcissism is just a self defence mechanism adopted through a genetic predisposition often paired with a monumentally shit and cruel start to life. That makes them ‘it’? Or are they ‘it’ only when they turn into adults? Claim their first victim perhaps? ‘Someone’ at age 13, relegated to ‘no one’ at 18? Can you reverse the ‘it’ status? What if my narc saved a life today? What if that life was a child’s life? It might ultimately be for self serving motives but the end result remains the same. He saves a life. He’s still an ‘it’ though? I doubt the child’s mother would agree. From her perspective he’s a hero. Whose perspective is the right one? How do we know? Who decides that?

        This is why I think you cannot advise me to objectify a person into a non person. I lack the black and white thinking to do so. If my narc is an it, then I am objectifying a lot of people in one move. One in six of them. Narcissism is a disorder. I don’t have to make myself a willing victim to that disorder. I am entitled to protect myself through the implementation of No Contact. That doesn’t mean I am given the right to view them as nothing.

        I think in grey because I am an empath not a narcissist. If visualising a person as an it, a nothing and a no one works for some then great. SP to be clear I’m not attacking those that choose to adopt this thought process. I can understand the thinking behind it. From my own viewpoint though, it’s a process I just don’t have the stomach for.

        Sorry SP, my apologies for bending your ear Xx. It’s just something that I fundamentally object to.

        1. Fiddleress says:

          Hello TS
          Thank you for the two comments you have posted. I am really thankful, and I agree with you. I am very pleased that you wrote what you wrote. At the same time, I am slightly ashamed of myself for not reacting as strongly as you have, because I normally would have.

          From where I’m at, I do believe that Zero Impact can be achieved through No Contact without having to view the narcissist as an “it”. Viewing a particular group of human beings as “its” poses a moral problem to me.
          I believe that we reach zero impact when we no longer fall for any manipulation from any narcissist and simply walk away when we come across a new one, but objectification of a whole group of human beings, or even only those we have loved, is at best not necessary. In my case I actually think it would be damaging to my psyche. I do not wish for any of the narcissists I have known to die, and their death has not left me and will not leave me indifferent.
          If calling their narcissist an “it” is necessary for some people in order to free themselves, then all right. But I agree with TS that it is not a necessity for all of us.
          I can call my non-parents “genitors”, because they didn’t deserve to be called parents, but they remain ‘people’ – people that I am sorry I ever had to deal with, people I do not like, just like narcex and a few others. But the fact they saw me as an “it” makes me wary of viewing them as an “it” too.
          And HG can certainly never be an “it” to me either.

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Fiddleress xx ( one for each cheek, saw your post on the other thread!)

            Likewise, I’m so glad you commented. Your description of Zero Impact feels like something I can achieve. Your views about ex and familial narcs also something I can fully relate to.

            There is no getting away from the fact that narcissists are a very real threat to us as empaths. An ensnarement will only ever end one way. Painfully. Parents don’t deserve the title of parent just because they created you. Similarly, and irrespective of the moral question here, with all we have learned about how narcissists are formed, I can’t dehumanise them and I can’t honestly say I would be indifferent if the narcissist came to harm. That doesn’t mean I need to serve myself up on a silver platter though . As you say, get out, don’t fall for the manipulations of someone who will never care for you. Protect yourself from future ensnarement. Your whole mindset I find just and achievable. I feel better, thank you.

          2. Fiddleress says:

            Glad you feel better, TS.
            And thanks for the xx on the cheeks, I needed that!

        2. Sweetest Perfection says:

          TS, “At what point do I classify a narc as an ‘it’.” In my opinion, as soon as you start your plan to GOSO. “Is HG an‘ it’ as well?” HG is not my narc. I didn’t have a relationship with him and he has never treated me poorly. He hasn’t made me feel like I was gonna break in thirty pieces inside or that my life was utterly destroyed, so I don’t need to objectify him though I don’t need to familiarize him either. He is not “my HG,” or my husband, or my dad, or my lover. To me he is the biggest expert on narcissism and a successful author publishing under a pseudonym. I don’t have any attachments to him other than purely intellectual curiosity, hence, I don’t need to adopt any strategy to detach my feelings from him. On the contrary, I don’t feel bad “it-ing” my narc. He’s a pestilent, repulsive somatic entitled piece of shit who almost ruined my life and doesn’t think about anything other than his penis and his abs. It is not black and white thinking, it’s called survival mode. At some point the little gazelle has to learn that feeling compassion for the lion is gonna get her killed. You can’t feel sorry for a predator when you are his dinner menu. To me ,my narc is zero, null, a black hole without substance that absorbs everything beautiful that floats around him and destroys it. He is not a real person to me, and therefore, I choose to save my empathy for those who really deserve it, not for a self-indulging robot in a permanent “destroy” mission. You don’t need to apologize for expressing your opinion to me, TS, never. I respect it and understand your view, that above was mine.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Logic

          2. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I have the best sensei.

          3. Fiddleress says:

            SP, as I said in another comment, if seeing the narc as an ‘it’ is necessary for some people, then by all means. Personally, I prefer HG’s metaphore whereby you see narcissists as radioactive. This totally works for me. They are a danger zone. The only solution is to remain distant from personal narcissists physically and mentally, psychologically, emotionally, sentimentally. And professionally too, when possible.

            I know that I will not change now: I cannot start seeing the narcissists I have known as objects. Anyone I come into contact with, I cannot help but form a bond of sorts with them. Even when it is only in writing. The bond is more or less strong, and feels more or less comfortable depending on the persons, but there is one. That is how I am, for better or for worse. And I get by in the end.

            Everyone leaves a mark on my life, no matter what the nature of the relationship was/is. I come to bear those marks as painless scars, when I have had to keep the persons out of my life; but seeing the people who left them as objects would be akin to cutting off one of my limbs, or part of my heart.

            About HG – I agree with the sheer intellectual curiosity for the greatest expert on narcissism. Doing my very best to keep it only at that level as far as I’m concerned, haha.

          4. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Well yes, the objectifying is purely performative; it could be anything that works best for any of us but the end point must be to detach. Notice I not only did this to detach from my “lover” narc. I work with another narc, I think he’s either a victim or a MRN. It has taken me a lot of trial and error, plus HG’s manual to handle narcs at work to learn to detach from him as well. Sometimes he is absolutely nerve wrecking and I want to punch him in his idiotic face, but then I use the “it” method, which does not really consist on thinking he’s an object, but rather, that he is annoying as fuck because IT makes him be. IT being the infinite vacuum that is at the core of his non-existence, which he must fill with others’ emotions lest he gets sucked in by it and disappear. It helps me calm down and show him that I am unaffected by whatever shit he thinks is gonna make me jump. Ommmm…
            About HG: it helps we don’t know what he looks like. The clue is to imagine behind that seductive voice is Danny DeVito hahaha.

          5. Fiddleress says:

            Hahaha to Danny De Vito, SP!

            I like how you expanded on your use of ‘it’, I totally get it.
            Good on you for managing to remain unaffected by the workplace narc. I honestly think the head of the college where I work is a narc too, but she has no real power over me (heads are not the employers here, the State is). She does try to pass unpleasant comments whenever she can, but she does it with everyone and she is hugely disliked by the whole staff, so it doesn’t get to me. I actually enjoy being contrarian with her when she tries to annoy me, haha! The word salads she invariably serves are comical (I find them comical because I can recognise what they are, now).
            Anyway, I have made up my mind to either change jobs or places to do the same job, if possible later this year. And that will be another narc down the drain. Though I guess they are everywhere.

          6. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Fiddleress, are you an educator? And yes I am trying my best to change jobs too, mostly because I miss working with colleagues that have ambition and a passion for intellectual knowledge. This guy is like stagnant water. It’s very depressing to work with him, he never wants to innovate, hardly ever has any ideas, and doesn’t investigate so I just do my own research on the side and never tell him anything because he gets jealous. I hate this pandemic with all my heart, but at least I don’t have to see the narcs in my life for the time being, ha!

          7. Fiddleress says:

            SP, yes I teach English in a college (the English meaning of ‘college’: the students are the equivalent of 6th formers studying to take their baccalauréat/end of High School exam, or what’s left of it as it is being stripped away by the latest reform of education).
            I also do a few hours at university, but my main job is at the college.

            Colleagues with ambition and a passion for intellectual knowledge: exactly what I crave! Can we meet up and start something, perhaps?? Seriously though, I don’t blame my colleagues because after the last two disastrous education reforms over the past 8 years, our hands and creativity are tied, and anyone who wants to exercise their ambition and passion for intellectual knowledge has no choice but to quit our education system.
            Although the pay has always been the shittiest in Europe for the number of years of studies and the level of proficiency required, I entered this profession because I believed in excellent free education, loved the English language, and what I was supposed to teach (and I was given considerable freedom) suited me perfectly. Until 8 years ago.
            I won’t go into detail or I am going to write a whole dissertation here, but my job now is akin to being a chef with a passion for exquisite food and its preparation, who could until recently try to pass on their skill and passion, and who is now mostly required to teach how to boil an egg, or stuff a ready-made meal into a microwave oven, because that’ll do for people to survive. And that chef has to spend A LOT of their time grading the students as they boil their egg or use the microwave. So I am thinking hard of what else I could do, and I do have an idea but with this pandemic, it is not practical just now.

            Outside of universities, all places of education remain open here, so I get to ‘see’ masked people all day, and I must say it depresses me (the fact that everyone’s face is half-hidden behind face masks).
            Fortunately, I don’t get to see the work place narc every day!

          8. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Fiddleress, I am a professor too! I knew I was onto something when I asked you, I could feel it! “Can we meet up and start something, perhaps??” YES. I love collaborating and I am extremely versatile. Do you have any opportunities to participate in professional conferences? I feel revitalized by the intellectual exchange. I totally get your analogy of the chef and the boiled egg. You get training akin to Michelin stars and then you end up serving at Macdonald’s. Hence, my efforts to participate in professional conferences or editing collaborations in publishing volumes, I have two editorial projects coming up. They keep me alive. I must say HG’s readings and information keep my intellectual thirst alive too. It’s not my field, but every time he decides to turn to Literature and read for us I feel a little less dead inside as opposed to so much mediocrity in my workplace. At least, I am working online for the time being which is a privilege in these times. I wish we could collaborate on some project, Fiddleress!!!

          9. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey SP,

            Thank you. I rarely voice a strong opinion in this way, and I do worry that because I am being read rather than in face to face discussion I can appear attacking in tone. Thank you for the recognition.

            Your comment does make sense to me. I think I have to bear in mind also that comparatively, I wasn’t impacted by my narc to the same extent as most here were. I was an LDE, hence my fuel didn’t really turn stale. Consequently, no shocking devaluation. No name calling, harsh words, violence or humiliation. I have non of those associations. There were plenty of narc behaviours but I can’t pretend to have suffered in the way most others have. In many ways, my decision to leave is more alike someone leaving during the golden period than during devaluation. I understand his interactions were manipulations. An unconscious quest for the Prime Aims. Fake. I understand I mean nothing to him, he doesn’t miss me, at least not for me. There is no issue with my understanding of his narcissism. There are very few Knowledge Vault items I haven’t read ha ha! I do however have to recognise that given my lack of a horror story, single ensnarement and no familial narcs, my views will be milder.

            My decision to cease all interaction was not made out of desperation. He didn’t almost destroy me or almost ruin my life. My decision was based on the confirmation of him being a narcissist. It was a calculated decision not a self preservation decision. One that said, ‘ This man will never love you or care for you and you will never get what you need from that relationship.’ Pointless exercise. There was no point continuing. No option but to let go of it. I’m more like the smoker who gives up, never touches another cigarette, but really wishes they didn’t cause cancer!

            My mindset is set differently and bound to influence my views. I had it easy comparatively and I admit that. So I do recognise that others will view the objectification idea differently to me. I’m in no position to question them either. Thank you for listening SP, and for your acceptance of my views xx

          10. Sweetest Perfection says:

            TS, I know, written communication can be easily misconstrued, though I totally understood your point, just wanted to encourage you to believe anyone can reach a point where you don’t feel anything for the narc anymore and find peace. Believe it or not, I didn’t have a horror story either. I was a shelf IPSS. He never devalued me or attacked me, in fact he stated very clearly his plan was to maintain a relationship with me -albeit, on his own terms, as I quickly learned. Like you, I realized he was a narc and that he was making me feel like a piece of meat that he used for his convenience, apart from the fact I already felt guilty for cheating on my husband. I escaped while he was away for the summer break and have never turned back. I felt broken inside, though. The horror came later in the shape of hoovers (you name any kind, I got it. Well, maybe not the apparition of my face in the jam hoover, but mostly all the other ones), and the stalking. It hurt me very deeply that I trusted a person I considered my friend for years, that because I’m a stupid love devotee, I created a romantic invention in my head that we were destined to be together despite all obstacles, and in the end, he was just feeding his addiction -I was just one more hit- and I almost ruined my marriage. I will never be able to think of him as a human being. He’s a parasite. You don’t need to compare your experience to others, everyone here had their own experience with a narc and I am sure none of them has been satisfactory or otherwise we wouldn’t be here. Your experience counts as much as the others. ❤️

          11. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Sweetest Perfection,

            Thank you for sharing your experience with me. I didn’t know anything of your story and I’m truly glad you are fully healed. There are many similarities with my own views of my ensnarement. I too became invested, was fooled into thinking there was a deeper connection, only to find that I was just a fuel source, no more no less. The loss of what might have been, had he not been a narc. The thought that things would be different. Not the case.

            I’ve been truly upset by the stories of other readers. Particularly those with narcissists as parents, that one relationship we are supposed to be able to rely on, so comparatively, I tend to feel like a lightweight. My ensnarement did hurt me considerably however, those feelings hard to shake if allowed any air time. So in that sense, yes I deserve to be here. I know you know what I’m getting at here so I’ll quit explaining and say thank you for your support and encouragement xx

          12. Sweetest Perfection says:

            You’re welcome, TS. Yes, of course you deserve to be here and I’m glad you are (despite the reason for that being a painful one). I’m using hearts because HG is allowing me to lately ❤️

        3. lisk says:

          You’ve internalized the narcissist and you’re gaslighting yourself.

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Lisk,

            Not entirely sure what that means. I’m thinking it’s not good ha ha!

            What I can say. I’ve read pretty much everything in the Knowledge Vault other than HG Mauls, some dark Cupid and the parental, divorce, familial specific pieces which don’t apply to me. I’ve read or listened to these articles several times so I can recommend items accurately to new people arriving on the blog. I read all the articles on here and have listened to everything on the Ultra channel. I’m out, I’m in solid No Contact and have been since May, I’m not going back. I understand how I became ensnared and why. I stand by the logic of my decision to get out and stay out. I understand red flags and how to protect myself against future ensnarement should a narc shuffle across my path going forward. I understand ET, how it works and how to reduce it. I implement and check those methods. I have no familial or social narcs in tow and work from home so I am not at risk of cross pollution. I have no online presence other than on here. My Facebook is very rarely used. My last photo on there was about 6 yrs ago I think. Everything has been purged, everything wiped clean. No communication with ex narc, nor will there be. I’m not foggy, I sleep well, I exercise, I’m a faddy eater, no change there though.

            Basically, I’ve done the best I can with it Lisk. I have a plan for the future and accept exactly where that takes me. I’ve made my peace with the whole thing. If I’m gaslighting, internalising or even moon walking, then other than the influence of time passing. I’m afraid that’s as good as it’s going to get!

          2. wildviolet22 says:

            Truthseeker615- maybe you are a “high bottom” person? In the sense that you see how things are unfolding, and where things are going, and bow out early before it gets to the point of things getting really, really bad?

            I can relate to this. Also I can relate to not wanted to be be tit-for-tat. In my case it’s like it almost didn’t really matter though, because I think he got really mixed up and started confusing who said what to him . If you tried to talk to him about his behavior, he saw that as “drama”, even though he was the drama. But apparently if anyone besides him was talking, to him it was “drama”. And I’m usually pretty even tempered in real life, I generally don’t name call or yell or anything like that, so I wondered if maybe his other appliances did, and he just saw us all as one person anyways, so it didn’t matter what I did as an individual in his eyes?

            But I escaped this last time (6 months no contact in a couple of weeks), and I can look back on my own behavior and be okay with myself, that I didn’t dissolve into tit-for-tat (I personally really dislike that kind of behavior), or behave like him. Not sure if I’ll ever get to the point of not caring, but I know I have to stay no contact no matter what (this is “abstinence”), because I know where that leads me, and what happens to me emotionally when I break that. I think of mine, and it helps me a little, to think of him as having “emotional rabies”. He’s not well, and interaction with him puts me in harms way. Eventually I will get bit :/. So maybe I still care a little, but no contact at all cost it is.

          3. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Wild violet,

            What you describe is very much where I’m at. I understand the narcissist is no good for me and know that my ET will soar if I interact with him or any other narcissist. I hate the cloudiness and lack of control that brings with it. So, like you, No Contact is the only solution. You only need to read this blog to see how much pain and devastation is caused when empaths become ensnared. So there is no option to but to disengage.

            My ensnarement was online for the most part. It’s possible ‘best sex ever ‘ guy was a narcissist too. I disengaged from him reasonably early and with no adverse effects. Maybe I am a bottom up person and either sidestep narcs to begin with or maybe I ship out early for whatever reason. I’ve ended all my relationships. Difficult to say who ended the ‘relationship’ with the narc. I started No Contact during a Silent Treatment. Let’s say me, ha ha!

            Thank you for your comment Wild Violet and for sharing that we are both in a similar place xx

    4. A Victor says:

      Truthseeker, thank you for sharing your viewpoint. This is interesting, I can see both sides. I think in an effort to minimize/eradicate the effects of the narcissist(s), minimizing their humanity may be a goal to aim for. But, is it actually possible for me to do that and would be the best thing for me, as an empath, if it is possible. I believe it would disrupt the free flow of empathy and that such disruption is a necessary thing to avoid future ensnarement. But to actually think of them as “it”, like they do us, hm… I can separate the behaviors easier, like, they never loved me and I know this because they abused me, therefore I can turn my compassion etc away from them. But thinking of him as an it, that’s another step beyond but may prove to be a necessary one? Thank you again, this is food for thought. I hope HG will expand at some point, has he seen this as damaging to empaths who have already done it? Is our empathy strong enough to prevent it going too far, keeping us from becoming like a narcissist, but useful as a goal for our protection? It would be interesting to learn more about.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        AV, you saying “But thinking of him as an it, that’s another step beyond but may prove to be a necessary one?” – interesting. HG’s cognitive empathy allows him to understand how empaths feel / think. He has also done the HG Mauls series. He is doing what other science / medical “professionals” are not – giving the tools for empaths to be empowered – especially in relation to LT & ET ‘realigning’ if you like. I suppose it’s basically ‘turning the tables’ and (in my view) suggesting that we think in a much less emotional way and see our past narcissists as objects instead of people. My words “past narcissists” – I am not necessarily referring to narcissists that you may come across in the future ie at work, in supermarkets etc – you won’t necessarily need to view them as ‘it’ unless they treat you like an ‘it’ (ie as a number instead of as a customer – cos that is how some supermarket managers view people – as numbers, not customers – if you can understand).

        I suppose, in some way, it’s like cutting the face out of a photograph of a person.

        AV, you will never become a narcissist.

        1. A Victor says:

          Thanks Asp Emp, I worry about being a narcissist all the time! Seriously! And I’ve done the EDC! But now that I know how they are, if I have any little thought that’s selfish or not nice, I’m like “Oh, no!! I am a narcissist!!!” I have listened to Why do I Behave Like the Narcissist, probably should again, it was helpful.

          Your analogy about the photo is very interesting, it makes them meaningless to the photo and thus, to the memory. I just got rid of my photos, except ones to give my kids with their dad. They’re boxed up, I never look at them. Also, I can never think of humans as numbers, that drives me crazy! We are not numbers!! And I love your “realigning” comment! That is what it feels like! And that helps, it’s a good thing.

          1. Asp Emp says:

            AV, to be honest with you – I even thought to myself, many times, I must admit – that I thought I was a narcissist, simply because I did. Now, I know I am not.

            I worked in retail, hence the ‘numbers’ (or ‘sheep’) as customers were referred as – by my line manager at the time.

            Thank you RE: realigning 🙂

      2. Truthseeker6157 says:

        AV,

        Me too. I can separate the behaviours easier too. I can testify to the effectiveness of No Contact and exorcism is one of my favourite books by HG. I can fully subscribe to all of that. I can support the vast majority of eradication in that sense but in the case of objectification I can’t agree on that specific element. It goes against my nature. People have to do what they think is necessary in their specific circumstances. I can understand that for some, objectification is an option, it’s just not for me.

        1. A Victor says:

          TS,
          Maybe I am blessed, I am very much an out of sight, out of mind kind of person. So, after my husband left, I didn’t think about him much except on rare occasions, there had to be a trigger. I had young kids who kept me busy so there wasn’t a lot of spare time to think. Coming on this site has been a major trigger but it’s all good, it needs to be sorted out and dealt with properly.

    5. MB says:

      TS, I refuse to think of HG as an “It” too. It hurts my heart. Some narcissists, yes. HG, no. My narc, no. My dad, no. The abusive, murdering, felon, yes.

      1. Witch says:

        I believe in this mutual it-ing

        1. WhoCares says:

          Haha Witch!

        2. BC30 says:

          Witch, Who is your avi?

          1. Witch says:

            Homelander from the boys

          2. A Victor says:

            I watched the first episode, loved it! Homelander is okay but Butcher, whew, be still my beating heart!!! That’s as close to porn as I get, looking at someone like him, even fully clothed is just fine! It is so seldom that I find actors attractive that it’s really fun for me when I do! Anyway, thanks for the suggestion!

          3. Witch says:

            @A Victor
            Glad to hear you’re enjoying the series
            And I see that you like rugged bad boys 😉

          4. A Victor says:

            My ex was a nice (on the eyes) mix between Homelander and Butcher, I will always consider him one of the best looking men ever, during the time we were together. I don’t know how he’s aging.

          5. BC30 says:

            I have seen the show, and will definitely pass on Homelander. I don’t find him to be handsome. Butcher, however, yum.

            #1 was so, so handsome and looked so good in uniform. Yum.
            #2 has such terrible teeth that I didn’t want to kiss him; it took several dates. I was in such a bad place when I met him. Yuck!!

          6. A Victor says:

            Aha! You like bad boys too!! High five!

            Bad teeth are the worst! Can’t even. Glad you got rid of both of them!

        3. Truthseeker6157 says:

          That made me chuckle Witch!

      2. Truthseeker6157 says:

        MB,

        A perfect way to put it. It would hurt my heart too. Thank you for your comment. Xx

        1. MB says:

          Yes TS, The HG ET of the Tudorite is eternal!

          1. Sweetest Perfection says:

            MB! Haha your cuteness makes me laugh.

          2. FoolMe1Time says:

            Tudorites to the end! Xx

          3. Truthseeker6157 says:

            MB, FM1T,

            Did you get the tattoo? I got the tattoo. Just not on my ankle! Ha ha xx

          4. FoolMe1Time says:

            I most certainly did TS! Xx

          5. MB says:

            TS, you were serious about the tattoo?! I looked up the symbol of course for my research, but was joking about getting it. I do have three small tattoos. If I was going to get one similar to that, it would be delta, the symbol for change. When HG wrote the NXIVM piece, I thought of ‘Pawn’ and the tattoo. The “cultness” of that piece is what I never wanted to bring up. I was waiting for somebody else to say it first. Did you really get the tattoo? I can’t tell if you’re kidding or not. If you’re serious, HG may have a fuelgasm over it! Ha ha

          6. Z - zwartbolleke says:

            Wait, what?
            Tattoos?
            What happened?

          7. MB says:

            Z, we’re referring to an element in ‘Pawn’ of the Dark Cupid series. Did you listen to that one? I thought the ladies were joking about we’d all be going to get tattoos. Apparently, they were serious. I did ask HG if he’d be selling the stencil at The House of Tudor. All in the name of uniformity!

            Speaking of…I need to pop over to The HOT to see if there’s any new blazing Ultra merch! If not, I bet it’s in hand.

          8. Truthseeker6157 says:

            MB,

            A fuelgasm eh? Great word.

            I suddenly understand that feeling of power I heard so much about 😉

            I thought about the cult element too. It wasn’t lost on me either. We need to revisit Dark Cupid I think. It’s gone quiet and there was lots still to talk about. I need to listen to the ones I have over again. It’s been a while since I thought about them.

          9. MB says:

            TS, yes! Fuelgasm is a thing. The narcissist gets sexually aroused from extremely potent fuel.

            https://youtu.be/W3-MAN5oH3s. Listen around the 12:30 mark.

          10. Asp Emp says:

            I can believe ‘fuelgasm’ exists – you only have to see it to believe it……(almost to the point of no return)……

          11. Empath007 says:

            Fuelgasm you say ? Well. This explains the consistent erection my narc had. Especially towards the end. This may also explain the night he told me he’d never had felt so attached to someone after sex.

          12. MB says:

            Empath007, “consistent erection”. Sounds like you had a somatic on your hands! I don’t know if “attached” was the word he was looking for that night, more like “fueled”. You brought it, he drank it in and felt the power.

          13. HG Tudor says:

            I should imagine a consistent erection would mean when it was an erection, it was always an erection, say as opposed to a banana.

          14. MB says:

            I don’t know HG. Some erections can be inconsistent. Leaving as quickly as they appeared!

          15. HG Tudor says:

            No MB, when the erection disappears it is no longer an erection, what you have there is inconsistent performance also known as Ghost Boners!

          16. MB says:

            Never heard it called GB before. It’s all (sex) education here! Ha ha. #prayforMBsexlife

          17. Asp Emp says:

            Ghost Boners. I may have seen that around somewhere.

          18. A Victor says:

            Floating past…hahaha!

          19. Asp Emp says:

            Laughing…… yes, it is part of the ‘devil’s toolkit’….

          20. Truthseeker6157 says:

            MB,

            I thought fuelgasm was your word! Ha ha. I missed that completely. I listen sometimes when I walk the dog at night. Ralph must have been pulling me across the road at that point to get to a yappy terrier he barks at. The terrier wears a hoody with ‘Security’ on it. Ralph isn’t a fan of dogs in hoodies!

            I was kidding. No tattoos here. Strangely, I only considered getting one once and that was when I was during ensnarement. I was considering getting the word ‘Truth’. I knew he was lying to me, usually around the time he called me ‘liar’! I chose this screen name a few months later, still ensnared as I arrived here. Truth, or the avoidance of it on his part was seemingly the thing I couldn’t stand.

            Funny how our minds work. I didn’t get the tattoo. I remain tattoo free. I was only joking about the symbol xx

          21. MB says:

            TS, nope, can’t take credit for fuelgasm. It was NA I first heard it from. HG didn’t use that term in the video but explained that sexual arousal could happen with certain narcissists.

            A hoody marked “security”. How cute! Tell Ralph I said hello.

            I wasn’t judging if you had gotten the tattoo. I need to revisit ‘Pawn’. That was my favorite of the series.

          22. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hello ZB!

            Don’t mind me, I was just playing around! We should revisit Dark Cupid though. There were some interesting discussions surrounding that.

          23. A Victor says:

            Hi TS, I’m debating on Dark Cupid, if I can pass the entrance exam at some point. But I’m quite nervous it will be like Spanked, which was very traumatizing to me. Can you give any insight, is that a concern?

          24. Fiddleress says:

            MB: “TS, yes! Fuelgasm is a thing. The narcissist gets sexually aroused from extremely potent fuel.”
            Yes, I was amazed when I heard this in the video. But at least now I have a good argument to justify the use of “pervers” (pervert) in ‘pervers narcissique’, the exact term for ‘narcissist’ in my language, in psychiatry!

          25. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Empath007,

            The fact you are devastatingly attractive, probably has something to do with that too! I re listened to the video. When you think about it, it makes perfect sense. Rapists rape for power not sex specifically. Stands to reason if a narcissist is fuelled up to the eyebrows he will find it a turn on.
            I remember you talking about the narc being permanently aroused. I thought it really strange at the time. Now, not so much.

          26. Alexissmith2016 says:

            HG, you’ve mentioned before that you don’t experience tingles like we do when we’re excited or someone we’re attracted to touches our arm or leg etc etc is that true of all Ns? Or only Ps? Is it not linked to nerve endings in the same way genitals are?
            Thank you.

          27. Empath007 says:

            Haha !

            “Consisten erection” : A erection which appears whenever you are near the narcissits.

            I’d go into his office at work to chat… there it was !

            We’d be having dinner at a nice restaurant… it joined us ! But it did not leave a tip.

            Sitting watching a movie AFTER we had already had sex… poof ! It appears. And lasted to whole 2 hours … wasn’t holding back.

            During a fight ? Naturally I can see it.

            …. consistent erection 🤣🤣🤣 no exaggeration either… we’d get in arguments about it 🤣🤣🤣

            “Can we please have a conversation without your penis involved ?!!”

            Real things I shouted while in a relationship 😂

          28. MB says:

            Empath007, “it did not leave a tip” I see what you did there. That made me giggle!

          29. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Empath007,

            Would he actually acknowledge the arrival of the boner? Did he proudly draw attention to it? Or, did he attempt to conceal it? Did he carry a man bag for example?

            Haha I do find this bizarre! How did he not pass out?!

          30. Truthseeker6157 says:

            MB

            “Never heard it called ghost boner before.”

            Me either, just nod knowledgeably.

          31. Z - zwartbolleke says:

            MB, TS6157,

            Thank you for explaining.

            No unfortunately I am not participating in the Dark Cupid fun.
            I can only focus properly at 1 thing and that is the decryption of the incident. The rest of my life is ‘on hold’! Literally…

            Also, I dare not send in my answer as I still don’t understand what we are expected to do/write.
            It will only end up in a failure and than where is the fun in it?

            After finishing the incident (if ever!), I need to focus on a restart of my dancing company (covid numbers are going very well here so reopening is expected very soon), and that is a complete disaster! I worked on nothing, I have no new choreographies, my accountancy is a year behind, pfiew where to begin!

            After that, I must first catch up with the HG mauls series (yep: had no time!), so before there is time for Dark Cupid it will be many months further.
            I regret missing it, but you cannot have it all!

        2. Empath007 says:

          TS he was like a hormonaly crazed teenage boy.

          He wouldn’t try and purposely flaunt it, but also didn’t necessarily go to any lengths to conceal it… to be honest towards the end I thought it was more provocation, to get a rise out of me. Make
          It clear he did not respect me and wanted one thing and one thing only…. since I was trying to deepen our “connection”

          Im not entirely sure how he’d pull off having it during an entire movie … clearly I made him feel powerful, and that turned him on.

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:

            I know what you mean Empath 007. One of the reasons I finished with best sex ever guy was that as things progressed I felt more and more that it was just about sex. I couldn’t be in the room longer than ten minutes before we were at it. The sex was great, but over time I didn’t see any depth to him. On top of that, I was utterly sleep deprived. We were up for most of the night then I had to go to work. He worked from home, no doubt would nap a few hours in the day. I had to keep going.

            I’d get exhausted, I was sore too! I would sit in the bath sore, nursing little cuts and tears. I’d suggest not seeing each other for a few nights so I could heal, catch up on sleep, my washing, ironing etc, just get myself straight. I’d be home an hour and he’d show up, carrying a bottle of wine and a smile. The minute he was through the door, no conversation, mouth on mine, man that guy knew how to kiss. Back to bed we’d go, no matter how tired I was, how sore.

            When I look at it now, I can see lack of boundary recognition, false caring ( he cooked for me most nights though I never asked), sense of entitlement, attempted isolation, monopolisation of time. Sounds like a Middle Mid Range type A Somatic. Bit haughty, though I didn’t stand for that. He bought a convertible too, I drove a convertible, mirroring. He smeared his ex wife yet tried to triangulate with talking about how big her boobs were. Fail, never craved big boobs, I like my own thanks ha ha! So there are definitely markers but I don’t know for sure if he was a narc. He did have a daughter though and they seemed to worship each other.

            We were together around 18 months, maybe a bit longer before I finished it. I felt smothered. He tried to get back with me a few times, a few months later I moved on secondment for six months with work. I didn’t miss him, because he didn’t get into my head. Spent all his time in my knickers! I think I’m good, as long as I don’t let you in to my head. That was the difference with online narc amongst other things. That was the mistake.

      3. FoolMe1Time says:

        Right there with you MB. It would not only hurt my heart, it would break into a million pieces!

    6. Whitney says:

      I agree the Narcissist is not an “it”. And I can’t make myself believe something that isn’t true, even if it feels good.

      1. Truthseeker6157 says:

        Whitney,

        I don’t think you should have to make yourself believe anything. I do like the approach by Who Cares, in terms of focussing on the Construct. Fiddleress describes her narc parents as ‘ ‘genitors.’ I can understand that too. A re labelling of what the behaviours of the individuals actually amounted to, rather than an objectification.

        1. Another Cat says:

          Sometimes I think I see them as machines, instinctive control machines. Oddly enough this makes me feel sorry for them that they can only run on unconscious autopilot. (Lessers, Midrangers)

          So I still view them as humans, with Human Rights, and their childhoods had trauma happening at some point.

          There is an old lady around here, total fuel-robot. If anyone looks the least bit nervous, she immediately walks after that person and whines, smiles, stalks, lets her dog nibble that person.

          Looking at my mother as a control-robot or control-machine sort of helps me not be angry, to feel cool. They can’t change. Their bodies can only do one thing. It’s like Arnold Schwarzenegger’s Terminator, that vision console. Exactly that.

          “Alert, standby, somebody making a nervous facial expression at northwest. Go over there.”

          This thought also makes narc exes less sexy. They aren’t free to choose.

    7. WhoCares says:

      I have to agree with some of the issues surrounding ‘it’. I think there is still a lot emotion around thinking of the narc as an ‘it’ or an appliance. It feels vengeful to do exactly to them what they did to us – and that involves emotion, so if Zero Impact implies no emotional response to the narc…?
      I prefer the concept of the Construct. It feels cold and clinical and reminds me that they would just ‘not exist’ otherwise, but it still indicates a ‘something’ and not an absence of something.
      I agree that ‘it’ is dehumanizing and to me, it feels like wanting retribution.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        It forms part of the eradication it is not the eradication in its entirety.

        1. WhoCares says:

          HG,
          Okay, but I will never fully eradicate my academic interest in narcissism, even if I were to reach Zero Impact with my personal narcissist…so I prefer “Construct”.
          I just feel that even the narcissist’s view of us as an appliance or an ‘it’ has a sense of distain attached to it, from the narcissist’s perspective. So I fail to view it as an emotion-free concept.

          1. WhoCares says:

            *disdain

      2. Truthseeker6157 says:

        Who Cares,

        I didn’t think about the Construct. I see what you mean. The Construct is an artifice, an illusion. Which ties into everything we are taught from the first moment of ensnarement through to later disengagement and hoovering. That sits far better with me. I can visualise it better too.

        1. WhoCares says:

          Now that you point it out Truthseeker, the Construct is also more visual for me. Maybe that is also partly why I prefer it.

    8. Empath007 says:

      I think zero impact is achievable for everyone. And I say this STILL having not reached it at over 2 years “no contact” (I put it in quotes because there is an area I have slipped up – social media). But I believe in zero impact because I have achieved it with other narcissists in my life before, I know what it feels like and I know I will get there.

      Sometimes, the cognitive dissonance just won’t let us go. There is something unresolved in our hearts and minds and we are addicted to resloving that conflict within in ourselves and obsessed with the object of our addiction (the narc)

      I’m curious if your strong reaction to word “it” perhaps has to do with the fact you still have feelings for a particular narc ?

      Yes of course we are not narcissits and we see people as just that… people, with their own individual needs, wants, desires. It’s impossible to turn that off. So I get what you’re saying. We don’t see people as objects and we never will. However, we can achieve not caring about another person or what happens to them.

      When I get there with my current narc. I’ll let you know 🙂

      1. Sweetest Perfection says:

        Empath007, “However, we can achieve not caring about another person or what happens to them.” Exactly, it is not strictly to believe they are a thing, but to detach our feelings from them.

      2. A Victor says:

        Empath007, I agree that it is possible. I have wondered on occasion what it will be like when my ex or my mom die. I was crushed by my dad’s death, and I expected that. I don’t have that expectation about them. We will see, if they go before I do.

      3. Truthseeker6157 says:

        Hey Empath 007 x

        I think you are right in summarising what I was getting at in two parts. First the Zero impact side and how achievable this is. It is achievable demonstrably as many have done so. To feel nothing at all, to not care if this person lives or dies, is not achievable for me personally. I can’t be an anomaly, so as such it follows that to feel nothing at all is likely not possible for all. I can far better relate to Fiddleress’s approach as being something achievable. More me. I admit to not being at that point but I see it as realistic. (Will explain that more in my response to SP to save on moderating time).

        The No Contact and exorcism part of the video I agree with fully. I have implemented those fully and without any slip ups. Unless you count a hoover when I reopened my account to contact someone in the US when they lost a family member. The window was opened and he hoovered accordingly. He received zero response. The Final battle material didn’t work for me, though it did help. So technically you could argue I’m not in full No Contact. That isn’t an issue with the material. That’s a me issue ha ha. I can say I rarely dwell now though. I do replace or push away thoughts most of the time. Just that when I don’t, I am as sad as I was on day one. Again, I understand the reasons why this is the case.

        The Objectification side. I don’t have it in me to dehumanise to the point of calling someone ‘it.’ This is a slippery slope in my view and one I can’t subscribe to. I can however recognise the thinking behind it. I can understand why people might selectively visualise in this way, and that choice belongs to them. I thought Wiser Now made a good point about stages of recovery. If you are in the thick of Emotional Thinking, where you feel completely hopeless, thinking of the narc as ‘it’ might well provide a focus. So I can see justifiable reasons for the approach, it’s just not a route I will go myself. I do think TDC outcomes can feed into tendencies to accept or reject this kind of concept too. If they didn’t, our outcomes would all be more similar. It would be interesting to correlate opinions on this with TDC percentages. I believe those TDC percentages to be more indicative of our responses than anything else. The EDC also but to a lesser extent in this specific scenario.

        Ha ha, do let me know when you achieve Zero Impact, or your version of it. It will be a day of celebration xx

        1. NarcAngel says:

          T.S
          Are you saying you are unable to dehumanize or use the term “it” specifically with regard to narcissists and/or people you know personally? or any human form?

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:

            NA,

            I’m not sure I properly understand the question. I see people as people. I don’t necessarily like everybody in my day to day. In fact you’d probably find me surprisingly selective as to friends or acquaintances. I rule out very quickly. If I rule out I wouldn’t say they were an ‘it’. They are people I don’t trust.

            I don’t agree with abusive behaviours etc but I see the behaviours as sick, or evil. I don’t see the abuser as a thing or an it. What Hitler did was evil. But the evil was committed by a person not by an ‘it’. My most visceral response would be with regards to someone harming or abusing children. Again, a person who should be locked up and never see the light of day because what they did was unforgivable. My narc, someone that hurt me, someone I have to avoid. What he did damaged me. Again, I can’t categorise as ‘it.

            I can in many ways condone an eye for an eye approach but not a dehumanising approach. Strange as it sounds. Hope that’s what you were asking, not trying to be dumb.

          2. NarcAngel says:

            T.S
            You covered what I was asking (you touched on it with Hitler and child abusers). Thank you for your response.

          3. Truthseeker6157 says:

            NA,

            I thought about your question afterwards. I overthink a lot as you know. The narc said that to me often. Not in a nasty way. ‘TS, you’re overthinking again.’ Maybe I was. We’re often a product of what we have seen or experienced. Similar personalities, different situations result in differing opinions. In general I mean, not just on this topic.

            When I was a student I spent a year studying in France in a place called Besancon. There is a citadel there and in it there was an exhibition about the Holocaust. When people think about Hitler, they remember the execution of Jews in gas chambers. That’s probably the thought that first comes to mind.

            The exposition had photos, we’ve all seen them, men women and children emaciated. There was another set of photos though. Those stayed with me. They were photographs of doctors and their ‘patients’. The doctors experimented on the Jews as we know. These particular images showed people with fungus implanted into their skin, parasites, things growing from their backs, lips, necks. This was not extermination. This was torture for pleasure.

            Who were these doctors that could do such things? Some were undoubtedly were narcissists, probably the ones that came up with the experiments. Not all of them were though. There were teams of doctors so, some had to be normals. How does a man do that to another human being, then go home, have dinner with his wife and sit with his child on his knee?

            Even if you consider the doctor under threat himself for non compliance, how did he do that to children, implant stuff into their skin to watch it grow? Herd mentality, self preservation, but mostly, they saw them as things, ‘its’ not people, just carcasses to experiment on. The images were shocking and stayed with me.

            I have contextualised them further through my learning here. Nose down normals, herd mentality, objectification and ultimately, complete dehumanisation. I don’t mean to say that if an empath who is viciously abused visualises her narc as ‘it’ for a time, she contributes to this kind of mindset. Of course not. I know that isn’t the point at all. There are various reasons for my reaction though.

            Even here, I don’t see the doctors as ‘ its’. They are people who committed truly horrific and unforgivable crimes against humanity. I hope they had nightmares about it until they died in excruciating pain. I see no place for forgiveness in this context but that’s an entirely different debate!

    9. WiserNow says:

      Truthseeker,

      Thank you for your comment, and I don’t think you need to go into the naughty corner at all. I agree with you that narcissists are ‘human’ and not ‘things’. To think of them as less than human and to force yourself into a state of ‘zero impact’ is – to me – the same as believing in a form of fantasy or illusion. To me it is the same as denying reality.

      I see this advice from HG in a multifaceted way. This helps me to control my ’emotional thinking’ and at the same time to keep being empathic in a broader sense. I don’t want to lose my empathy or to become inhuman.

      This multifaceted way of thinking is a bit like mental gymnastics. It takes practice and open-mindedness. Flexibility of thought is difficult while someone is deep in the emotional sea. After reading about ‘defence mechanisms’ (including narcissism AND people-pleasing), one factor that prevents change is rigidity of thinking. It takes time and consistent self-work to reduce this rigidity.

      The only time I ‘force’ myself to think in a certain way is when I feel that a personal logical injustice or breach of justified boundaries occurs with the narcissists that are close to me.

      With narcissists or narcissistic people who aren’t that close to me, my emotional thinking is lower to begin with. I keep a certain emotional distance from them until I feel I can trust the situation and my own instincts. In the meantime, I treat them as humans with empathy and fairness within logical boundaries. This makes it easier and less damaging to deal with narcissists and narcissistic people (or organisations or groups) when I come across them in daily life (which is often).

      I fully understand where you’re coming from. To me, HG’s advice is very black and white, all or nothing. When someone is struggling to free themselves from the emotional distress of being abused or in a situation where they have lost the ability to be logical and are sinking into a deep state of depression or anxiety, HG’s advice is sound and his ‘all or nothing’ approach is helpful in a personal sense to ‘that’ person.

      When it comes to society at large, or humanity as a whole, treating other people as ‘things’ will worsen the state of society as people go about their daily lives. Does anyone want to live in a society where any person at any time can be treated as a ‘thing’? I know I don’t. To condone and promote the idea that people ‘should’ be thought of as ‘things’ to gain some kind of ‘victory’ is a horrible thought.

      1. WhoCares says:

        Hello WiserNow,
        How are you?

        1. WiserNow says:

          Hi WhoCares,

          I’m well thank you, how are you? Thank you for asking. I hope you and your son are well and have had a good year, all things considered.

          I see that you continue to comment here regularly and your comments are empathic and considerate. I enjoy reading them and I’m glad there are empathic voices still here.

          1. WhoCares says:

            WiserNow,

            My son and I are well, despite it being an unusual year all around!
            Homeschooling again at this time, which is both enjoyable and challenging, but looking forward to him attending in-person soon because he needs the socializing with peers.
            Yes, I am still around commenting when I can and partaking of the excellent learning here.
            I hope you are keeping well and wishing you all the best for 2021!

          2. WiserNow says:

            Thank you WhoCares. I am keeping well, and all the best to you too for 2021.

            2020 was definitely an unusual year. It feels like life in general will never be the same as it was prior to all that happened last year.

            Whenever you mention your son, I can tell how seriously you take his upbringing and development. He is a fortunate young man to have a mother who is knowledgeable about narcissism and who takes great care in protecting him from it. All the best with the homeschooling.

            Narcsite is definitely a forum that provides excellent learning. There is nowhere else like it really. HG has made it a place that delves deeply and unapologetically into human nature, yet it’s also a pleasure to take part – as long as it’s understood that we must all play by HG’s rules. He is like a benevolent dictator in that way 😉

          3. HG Tudor says:

            My house, my rules. Not that they cause any problem for those who operate in a sensible manner here, which of course includes you WN.

          4. WiserNow says:

            HG,

            Your words ‘my house, my rules’ makes me think of the lyrics:
            “You ask me to enter, but then you make me crawl”
            (‘One’ by U2)

            Also, ‘those who operate in a sensible manner’ …? You may as well have said, ‘those appliances who operate in a manner I approve of’.

            HG, I will enter your house with respect for you and your other visitors, however, I’d prefer not to crawl.

          5. HG Tudor says:

            No it is not just the manner I approve of, do you not agree that people behaving in a constructive, courteous manner towards one another, having interesting and thought-provoking dialogue, receiving answers to key questions and offering their own constructive observations is something you would approve of too?

          6. WiserNow says:

            HG,
            You have made the situation of ‘moderator/commenter’ sound very benign and fair, open and reasonable, and of course, I would ‘approve’ of all that too. However, you’re the one moderating and the one in ‘control’.

            If you disagree with a commenter, it’s more than likely that other readers will either disagree with them too or will not readily voice their agreement. I understand it’s ‘your house’, but the meaning of ‘constructive’ is open to different perspectives.

            Thank you for allowing my comments and for your open-mindedness.

          7. HG Tudor says:

            I haven’t made it sound benign, it is benign. I note you approve of what I have explained.

            “If you disagree with a commenter, it’s more than likely that other readers will either disagree with them too or will not readily voice their agreement. I understand it’s ‘your house’, but the meaning of ‘constructive’ is open to different perspectives.”

            1. What do you mean by constructive then which is different from what I have written?
            2. You do the readers a disservice with that suggestion.

          8. WiserNow says:

            HG,

            I’m not doing the readers a disservice at all. In my mind, I am making it easier for other readers (who may have many different thoughts, ideas and observations) to feel that they can and would be welcome to add to the discussions.

            I don’t wish to argue HG, I really don’t. I enjoy the constructive and thought-provoking conversations here very much.

          9. HG Tudor says:

            They find it easy enough to articulate their thoughts and observations owing to the constructive forum that has been created here. Your comment did do the readers a disservice. You clearly do wish to argue otherwise you would not have written as you have. I do not have a problem with you expressing your views when they might be contrary to my own but there is not need to write comments such as “I don’t wish to argue” as you are doing so, there is nothing wrong with you doing so, so long as it is within the parameters of the rules. It is akin to people saying “I do not want to hurt you but” and then they say something hurtful. If you do not want to hurt somebody then do not say the comment rather than coming out with the flannel beforehand or say “I am going to say something which may hurt you” at least that is honest.

          10. WhoCares says:

            WiserNow,

            “I can tell how seriously you take his upbringing and development”

            Definitely, in some areas – although he would tell you I take some areas too “seriously.” Haha.

            “He is a fortunate young man to have a mother who is knowledgeable about narcissism and who takes great care in protecting him from it. All the best with the homeschooling.”

            Thank-you ♥️

            “Narcsite is definitely a forum that provides excellent learning. There is nowhere else like it really. HG has made it a place that delves deeply and unapologetically into human nature”

            I am so in agreement with this statement – and it was very well put.

            Take care WiserNow 💜

          11. WiserNow says:

            Thank you WhoCares, and you’re welcome 🙂 You take care too.

          12. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Wiser Now,

            Agree, this place is unique. I joke about being sent to the naughty corner for raising an opposing view, but I am only joking. HG always allows views to be expressed, even those that might be contrary to his own.

      2. Truthseeker6157 says:

        Wiser Now,

        Thank you for your considered comment. I hadn’t considered the idea that people who had only recently escaped and with soaring ET could perhaps focus better if the narcissist was dehumanised. When we are as raw as that I can accept that this approach might prompt a continuation or implementation of No Contact. A short term visualisation if you like.

        I agree with your last sentence. Society is intolerant enough as it stands already. It’s in the news every single day, not just here, everywhere. I turn on the news and there is no respite from it.

        I don’t have to continue a relationship with a narcissist. I can choose to avoid interactions with them. I don’t think I should dehumanise a group or a member of that group to the status of ‘it’ though either. It’s too close to everything that is wrong with the world.

        1. WiserNow says:

          You’re welcome Truthseeker.

          Yes, a ‘short-term visualisation’ is a good way of describing it. At the point in time when someone has soaring ET, it’s helpful.

          I agree with you that society’s intolerance is seen everywhere and that there appears to be no end in sight. It’s interesting too, that you say that you “turn on the news” and see it everywhere.

          The “news” in the three major western regions – USA, UK and Australia – is greatly influenced by Rupert Murdoch. His media empire owns a very large proportion of publications, news programs, entertainment media and social media platforms, including Fox News, The New York Post, and other major newspapers in the US; The Sun and The Times in the UK; and The Australian and NewsCorp in Australia. This has been the case for many decades since Murdoch became the head of his father’s media business at the age of 21.

          The “news” coming out of Murdoch-owned publications and broadcasts is more like propaganda and political gaslighting than actual ‘journalism’. It is slanted towards the personal views and self-serving business interests of Murdoch himself. His papers and news programs have run a narrative that has protected and promoted the political candidates Murdoch has favoured in those countries for many years, and in the current obvious narcissists (Trump, Johnson and Morrison).

          If there are political leaders that Murdoch is not so comfortable with because they will not willingly collude with him, his media publications run deliberately disparaging campaigns against them disguised as ‘legitimate news’. This decades-long, consistent poisoning of legitimate journalism has been described as a “cancer on democracy”. It would be very, very interesting if HG put Rupert Murdoch under the Tudorscope.

          Overall, I agree with you that there’s a lot that’s wrong with the world and that describing humans as ‘things’ will only make it worse. Thanks again for your initial comment. This thread has been great and a much-needed contrast to all the ‘inhuman’ information that’s everywhere at the moment, as you have pointed out.

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Wiser Now,

            Thank you. Yes, you highlight another real problem. I can no longer trust what I read. I read around all kinds of subjects to try to get a non biased view and establish the truth of things but I feel bombarded by images and slants that are seemingly always biased in one direction or another. We all have bias to a degree but with social media chiming in, this has become considerably worse and quite recently. I can feel the difference just over the last two or three years.

            The UK newspaper that reports with least bias I think is the Financial Times. The rest, I don’t know what I’m looking at. Listen to a politician and I can’t trust what I’m being told either. I can feel when I’m being lied to, but this doesn’t tell me the truth.

            I just see so many people behaving in a selfish way throughout the pandemic. I have to have faith that these people are not selfish in entirety, they are just behaving in a selfish way right now, but I’m struggling with sticking to standpoint and my frustration and disappointment is in line with it.

            Media is the Superpower of modern times, wielded by narcissists and it’s power is terrifying.

          2. WiserNow says:

            I agree TS, media and the ‘information age’ we are now living in is very powerful and it is a ‘superpower’ wielded by narcissists who ‘own’ the information.

            I find that reading as much as possible over a broad range of information from a variety of sources is helpful. It’s not that easy due to time and access limitations, however, it helps to learn more and to get a feel for different perspectives and details. The thing is to read with focus and with a certain scepticism as well. It helps to question what you read in terms of who said it, why and who the audience is meant to be.

            Thanks again for your comments TS.

    10. mommypino says:

      I was able to achieve zero impact on all of the narcissists I encountered although it took a lot of discipline and time for some except my N mom. It was the way our relationship was. I really believed for so many years that she loved me even though she made my life painful and miserable because I thought she meant well but she just didn’t have a clue. That belief that I was loved, in fact I thought she loved me more than herself at times, and also the sacrifices she made for me as my only caregiver, and many other factors made it impossible for me to not care about her wellbeing. But I limited my interactions with her and kept my distance. I think that was the best that I could ever do when it came to her.

      1. mommypino says:

        I didn’t share this for sympathy by the way. I’m totally doing fine. I shared it as an example that like what TS said, relationships and entanglements are all different. I guess objectively I didn’t achieve the ultimate success with my N mom as I supported her financially and made sure she was safe, ok and not miserable. But I have no regrets because I would probably be miserable now if at the back of my mind I had any guilt. This way I can honestly say that I have no regrets and this is the best outcome that I can live with, for myself.

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          MommyPino,

          I certainly didn’t see you sharing for sympathy. I do think we are all different, and likely react differently with different types of ensnarements. The parental narcissist has to be toughest in terms of betrayal of trust, the loss of love that was supposed to be unconditional. Relationship narcs likely more difficult in terms of abuse, physical, sexual, mental and financial. What I’ve learned from reading here is that there are similarities in ensnarements but I think they hurt in different ways and for different reasons and for different empaths. Some of us might take a direct route to full recovery, some the more winding road. Success might look different for different people in different ensnarements and that’s ok I think. We go as far as we can to protect ourselves and be ok with ourselves at the end. I’m not at my ideal Zero Impact if I’m honest, but I’m a hell of a lot better day to day than I was this time last year when I was still ensnared. That has to be a step forward!

          Nice to see you back MommyPino. Xx

          1. MP says:

            Thank you TS. I understand what you are saying. I’m glad that this mindset is brought up by HG because it is most definitely helpful if we can do it. And I’m glad that you brought up the uniqueness of each situations too and that sometimes it’s good enough to achieve progress and we can progress in our own pace and what feels authentic and comfortable for us.

        2. A Victor says:

          mommypino, thank you for sharing this. This is my thinking about my mother. I have to be able to live with myself at the end of the day. I am practicing ANC currently but we live in the same house so I am here if she needs something. It’s working for now. I know she struggles knowing there is fuel so nearby and not able to get to it but were we still in our own homes, as we were prior to moving to one bigger home when my dad needed more help, we would not see each other every day. I used to see them once every month or two! She’s been better since I pointed this out to her, less pouty.

          We did have an altercation a couple of days ago though and my son overheard it. When it was done, he followed me and talked to me for at least an hour, in very strong terms, that I cannot let her to continue to abuse me, I need to go put my foot down, he and his sister will back me up, I need to tell her if she doesn’t get it together I’m moving out and he’ll come with me-he told me all the plans to do so even! He was very upset at the way she’d been speaking to me. It was so sweet to hear him talk like this and it gave me hope and encouragement that if need be, I do have choices. And, what’s even more interesting is that he has no clue about GOSO, he won’t talk about narcissism at all, but it was basically what he was telling me to do!

          Thank you for sharing, it is something I’ve been really thinking a lot about and different perspectives are valuable.

          1. MP says:

            A Victor, I’m so happy for you that you discovered that about your son. It’s an amazing feeling to know that even though we struggle with boundaries or whatever it may be, that our kids do not and have a bigger chance of having a happy and healthy life and relationships with people. You did well as a mom. It is also very sweet that he loves you and are very protective of you. He is absolutely right and hopefully there can be a way where you have more distance from her and less interactions. You can do it slowly. I think that every progress is a battle won. For me, my mom could not get a job and didn’t have social security and there is no welfare in my home country so if I didn’t support her she would be begging for food and move from relative to relative as she abuse all of them while they let her live with them. But I only telephoned her once a month and visited her once a year. I treated her for vacations when I visited her and she gave me silent treatments in those vacations but I was still able to enjoy those vacations with her for the most part because I was able to focus more on the beauty of the places. But she still got me mad many times and I was not able to learn how to completely detach while I am around her before I learned that she was a narcissist.

      2. WiserNow says:

        Mommypino,

        I can totally understand and relate. When it comes to our mothers, I really doubt whether ‘zero impact’ is actually possible. There’s too much unconscious influence, cell-memory, life experience, emotional connections, etc etc. There are also aspects like belief, love, hope and attachment that are healthy for us to have for our own sanity and our own relationships.

        It sounds like you have thought it all through and contemplated things deeply and have come to your own personal conclusions that you’re comfortable with. Maybe that is an overall more healthy way to live when it comes to a parent.

        1. MP says:

          Thank you WiserNow.
          “It sounds like you have thought it all through and contemplated things deeply and have come to your own personal conclusions that you’re comfortable with.”

          Thank you WiserNow, that is exactly it for me. 🙂

          1. WiserNow says:

            You’re welcome MP 😊 I can understand you, because I think and feel the same way about my parents.

  9. Erin says:

    Im in a relationship with a emotionless narc 19 years with him he is wounded and o dont care

  10. Sweetest Perfection says:

    Best best best advice ever. Agree 100%.

    1. Sweetest Perfection says:

      *you’re my sensei. Cobra Kai is back and I want to be in your dojo.

      1. njfilly says:

        Ha ha!!

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