The Borderline

What is the borderline?

Distant relative of the narcissist or close cousin?

Or something else altogether?

28 thoughts on “The Borderline

  1. psychologyandworldaffairs says:

    I struggle with this – PTSD or narcissist. I can find branches which could determine either. Bordaline I find no evidence for = my ex did not have abandonment issues (except maybe fear of his parents – if he displeases them?). Or am I supposed to think that? I got the impression he was emotionally stunted as a child and never grew past it. But at the start of our relationship this never manifested – I thought him sweet and loving – incredibly smart and able.

    1. Asp Emp says:

      PAWA, maybe have a look at HG’s article ‘To Control is to Cope : The Creation of Narcissism’? That may prompt some thoughts for you and may give you some answers? (in relation to your ex).

      However, your words “PTSD or narcissist” did make me think – hang on a second, with LOCE and GPD being present = formation of a narcissist. Yet, a narcissist would be subject to some kind of abuse in relation to the LOCE – just wondering, thinking out loud here – maybe it is, in some way, it could be PTSD / CPTSD until the development age of around 9 years – before an individual develops into narcissist (APD) – purely because the individual has not been ‘removed’ from the LOCE in question? I’m not wanting to ‘cloud’ the process or challenge anything (or anyone) – it’s just a concept that came into my mind……

  2. content-being-average says:

    Interesting video HD and I question I have often asked myself. Elinor Greenberg (psychiatrist) differentiates BPD from NPD (saying BPD = the pursuit of love) vs (NPD = the pursuit of admiration) as a core need. I like that empathy failures in BPD show it is more likely NPD in sheeps clothing (ie: the female variant). Your comment on Angelina Jolie as a Narc sociopath made me laugh. I work with anti-social offenders and as HG says – it ‘aint an anger management problem — it is FURY with a capital F. Always about control.

  3. Benedetta says:

    I always wondered if Angelina Jolie is a borderline and Brad Pitt a narcissist. He is a chameleon that always “steals traits” of girlfriends, hair, dressing style, interests, she was abandoned by her mother because she looked too much like her father, and therefore she did not get any care or affection. It is said that Jolie is a fan of opioids and Brad Pitt a raging alcoholic. Have you ever thought of that, Mr. Tudor?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Angelina Jolie is a narcissistic psychopath. You can have that one for free.

      1. karmicoverload says:

        I always thought there was something “off” about her! Thanks for the freebie, H.G 😉🙂

    2. A Victor says:

      Thank you for asking about this Benedetta, this is a couple I have been curious about also. I have felt sad for their gaggle of children right from the start. Hopefully they find HG’s work early on, if they’re empaths.

      1. lickemtomorrow says:

        I always wondered what she was trying to prove by gathering children up from all these different countries in some kind of humanitarian gesture. It seemed to be more about her image than the children themselves. Very sad for them, that they are just extensions to help enable her facade.

        1. A Victor says:

          Yes, I have wondered as well. And equally sad for those born to her, they can’t even deny having her genes. I don’t know what Brad was thinking, whipped I guess.

  4. Summer says:

    Bravo!!!!!

  5. S says:

    Fascinating! I have so many questions about this for our next session. S

  6. Asp Emp says:

    HG, it’s good to see your opinion that ‘borderline’ should be removed. I agree. My basis for saying that is the fact (in my opinion) the word ‘borderline’ is too broad and generic.

    Your descriptions in relation to ’emotional empathy’ was really good to read and giving a really good insight into individuals who have experienced ‘trauma’ and / or abuse at some point (if, not all) during their life time (whether they are a narcissist or not).

    “even though the abuses stopped the consequences of it were so extreme that they continue almost like an echo from the original event” – a brilliant way to describe it.

    Another interesting point that you talk about is the fact females are not necessarily ‘counted’ as much as the males due to the ’empathic caring’ characteristic. For a number of years, I had supposed that it was more difficult to spot Autism in females because of the difference between male and female hormones / genetic make-up and as a result, in some way, thinking differently.

    “those which have no awareness at all don’t even realize that they are causing a problem for other people and if it’s pointed out to them you get the blank look they’re at a loss” – this reminded me of HG’s ‘The 404 Narcissist’ video.

    The way you explain – especially in this video – in, my view, the importance of it and the wording you use is so that a lay-person can understand, without the use of jargon or techo-babble. It allows ease of translation into different languages without the need for a lot of ‘deciphering’ to be involved.

    This is a really good video that should (and must) be read / understood by those who are working with people who have experienced trauma / abuse. Those who are training to work in the field of neurological science and / or mental health profession must grasp this understanding.

    I’d like to think that one day, this video will be used during a lecture for those learning about the human psyche.

    HG, this is brilliant, thank you for doing this video.

  7. lisk says:

    “Narcissist Lite”—I love it!

  8. WiserNow says:

    Thank you HG, for explaining this video (and others too) thoroughly and in detail. It makes a lot of sense and provides down-to-earth, practical information.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

  9. Yolo says:

    This information is factual and I’ve found very helpful. Thank you!!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome, good to see you back Yolo.

  10. WhoCares says:

    Yes!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Succinct. HG approves.

  11. NarcAngel says:

    Enjoyed hearing your take on this. It’s a vague title. I used to think bordering on what? and imagined someone got a large grant to come up with a “catch all” category. The name implies it’s at the edge of something but not fully which as you point out – affords the ability to excuse the behaviour (as in “I’m only on the border of narcissism but possess empathy so I’m not). I wonder if because of this diagnosis, some people mistakenly think narcissists can change (in that perhaps the abuser is just on the “borderline” and therefore has empathy they could tap into – which of course they can’t). I can think of a few examples (one more specifically) here previously who claimed to be diagnosed borderline. They seemed like they had just the slightest hold on cognitive empathy and then would lose their shit completely over something and follow it up subsequently with : I’m borderline and was triggered. A pattern.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Yes, I have heard other people who began thinking the term meant being close to the edge as in “just over” the line and then thinking “Hmm, this person’s behaviour is full on, not just over the line,” another way in which this description of certain people is misleading.

      1. Contagious says:

        I have read of a covert borderline from some expert from Russia who wants a dsm 5 class for this type b. It is mostly male. I wonder if cluster B should be trashed. A spectrum. What’s the difference when someone abuses to control or fears abandonment? Isn’t that control? I know from personal experience. It gets weird I have seen paranoia and a person dissociate. Blank out or create a new reality. I have seen empathy of sorts to dogs to kids etc… but the abuse to me IPSS is without empathy. It is very hard fir me to feel a difference. I have seen different personalities. I just think it’s a cluster fuck of B with the same result. but the big but is borderlines can change with help. How can that be? Narcs can’t. If so closely aligned and one has hope, how can you know?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Covert borderline is a Mid Range Narcissist.

    2. karmicoverload says:

      This is timely. My LMR narc has recently put me back on the shelf (Potentially with the thought of disengagement) after proclaiming to have been diagnosed (And be under DBT for) you guessed it, BPD.
      The irony of this is that I introduced him to the term about two years into our relationship. I was constantly trying to excuse his behaviour, I desperately wanted to believe he was not a narcissist. So at some point I asked if he had considered whether he may be BPD.
      I was aware of the “condition” because I was convinced I had it because of my own behaviour. Either that, or autism, or ADD….or any number of other mental health disorders. I still consider if autism may be a factor for me.
      A wonderful soul on one of H.G’s other postings regarding shelf IPSS pointed out that BPD can be a misdiagnosis of CPTSD. Given previous traumas faced by many of us here, and our subsequent treatment by narcissists, it would be very interesting to see how many of us actually do suffer from PTSD/CPTSD.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        Karmicoverload, RE: CPTSD is still a relatively new ‘condition’ that the medical / science world have come up with. PTSD has been around longer. Even if victims of narcissistic abuse get diagnosed with CPTSD, it is still very well worth the educating yourself on narcissism and understanding what it is that maintains the ‘addiction’ to narcissists. In my opinion, too few doctors / therapists would actually make the connection of narcissism to a victim’s past because a victim may not actually realise (or be aware) that it is related to narcissistic abuse.

        RE: autism – there are online self tests that you can do as a rough guide for yourself and if you wished to pursue it as an official diagnosis, maybe contact your own doctor in the first instance? Simon Baron-Cohen @ the Autism Research Centre is a good starting point. There some Autism Quotient (AQ) tests as well.

        Having said that, there are a number of similarities in the characteristics of those with CPTSD, autism, ADHD, aspergers – to name but a few – hence the reason (which is now my belief) why some people get ‘diagnosed’ with BPD because it is easier for one ‘label’ to be attached rather than going into the nitty-gritty of further analysis. Also historical medical information about your family can help ‘narrow’ things down a bit.

        I hope this helps you a bit 🙂

        1. karmicoverload says:

          Thank you Asp Emp, all great info! 😊

  12. Caity says:

    Another brilliant video, HG. I’ve always thought the term ‘borderline’ was just a catch all diagnosis which seemed the go-to for psychiatrists and psychologists who were too lazy to actually break it down. The “I don’t know, so we’ll call it this” diagnosis.
    Thank you for getting inside this label and explaining what it really is and most importantly, what it is not.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you.

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