Hoover Time – Sphere One (Lesser, Mid Range and Greater Narcissists)




There are many different hoovers but the ones which attract the most attention are those which take place post disengagement or post escape, namely the Initial Grand Hoover which is the bombardment which follows you escape in order to drag you back into our world or the Follow-Up Hoovers (either Benign of Malign) which take place later and happen irrespective of whether the method of cessation of the Formal Relationship was your escape or our discard.

The Initial Grand Hoover is the most concentrated post escape hoover and its efficacy depends on the type of narcissist you are dealing with and the defences you have created as part of instigating no contact. If there has been no IGH owing to Discard or the relevant factors have not caused on to happen post escape, then it is the Follow-Up Hoover (“FUH”) which is often discussed by victims because that is the one which is most feared, the one which is most expected and most recognised. In some instances, it is even the case that this hoover is actually wanted by the victim for reasons I have expounded previously. The fascination with the FUH is such that people wonder when it is going to happen, how it will happen, will it happen at all, will it happen many times and so forth. I always explain that whether a FUH takes place is primarily determined by whether you have entered one of the six spheres of influence. The first five are entered by you doing something or being in a particular place. The sixth is when you just happen to pop up in our mind for whatever reason. However, the fact that you have entered the relevant sphere of influence is not the only deciding factor as to whether the FUH will take place. There always has to have been an appearance in a sphere of influence for the FUH to be triggered. Whether it is then executed against you depends on other factors. Those factors are as follows: –

  1. The narcissist’s current fuel supplies;
  2. Did you escape or is that you were discarded;
  3. The manner of this escape or discard;
  4. The ease of contact with you;
  5. The nature of the fuel to be obtained;
  6. Potential obstacles.
  7. The type of narcissist you are involved with.

These factors have differing applicability subject to the school of narcissist that you have been entangled with.

How then does our kind approach the prospective hoover? I shall explain what (if anything) goes through our minds, what we consider and how we might go about it by reference to each of the schools of narcissism (Lesser, Mid-Range and the Greater) and by reference to each sphere of influence.

Accordingly, the first sphere is the one where you are physically proximate to you. This is where you are within earshot of us and we are able to get near enough to you to talk to you and see your reactions. It might be the case that you have called around to see us for whatever reason, you may have to interact with us at a school event where our children attended or you may be in a bar or restaurant that we have walked into or vice versa. What is our response?

  1. The Lesser Narcissist

The Lesser is not going to turn this opportunity down when it is presented on a plate for him. If his fuel supplies are good, for instance he has a new primary source and/or he is fuelled from supplementary sources this will increase his energy level to hoover you. If his fuel supplies are low (he has not yet secured a new primary source and supplementary sources are low functioning for him) he will still seek to hoover because this is much needed fuel. The fuel levels will affect the type of hoover. Higher fuel levels are more likely to lead to a benign hoover, lower to a malign hoover. This is because the Lesser will not have the energy to charm but rather needs a quick fix when those fuel levels are low. Furthermore, the fact he has no primary source in place yet will of course be your fault because you escaped (a narcissist will not discard without an alternative being available).

If you were disengaged from, he is not going to ignore the opportunity and if you escaped he will certainly not ignore this opportunity. There is a score to settle and if you escaped this also increases the likelihood of the FUH being malign.

The manner of your escape or discard does not matter to the Lesser, he will not be considering this as he is like a ravenous beast who has just seen a fresh piece of meat placed in reach. He is not considering whether the meat might trigger a trap or be poisoned, all he knows is that he is hungry for that juicy flesh again.

The ease of contact is also not something that the Lesser is bothered about. You are in front of him, that is all that matters. It does not matter who is there or where this proximate contact takes place the fact is you are there in front of him, tempting and inviting. This appearance overrides such considerations.

The nature of fuel is not a major concern either to the lesser in such a situation. Once again he just knows there is fuel available and he wants it. He does not concern himself with how much you used to provide, how potent it was, whether you will still yield this fuel or not, all he knows is that he is going to feel far more powerful by interacting with you. Remember the Lesser is not aware of what fuel is, how it governs him, all he knows is that when he upsets you, makes you smile, makes you praise him and so on he feels so much better. That is the dominant thought running through his mind. He is not concerning himself with whether he is going to secure the resumption of the Formal Relationship with you. That may or may not happen. That is like asking the ravenous beast whether he is going to eat five or six carcasses. He does not know or care. He just wants to sink his teeth into the first one and then go from there.

Potential obstacles do not cross his mind either. The risk of being rejected is not a consideration, the potential for wounding will not cross his mind because you are there in front of him. Remember, the Lesser has very little self-control and he is chomping at the bit to interact with you.

The Lesser will immediately stop what he is doing and make a bee-line for you and launch into a hoover. The only consideration with a Lesser who sees you in the first sphere of influence is whether this hoover will be malign or benign in nature. He will have no regard to his surroundings as he will adopt tunnel vision as his you his prey is presented square in his sights. He will either bound over with puppy dog eyes and slavering tongue or pounce on you with snarls and teeth bared. You will always be hoovered by a Lesser in the first sphere.

  1. The Mid-Ranger

The effect of the fuel supplies with a Mid-Ranger are reversed compared to that of a Lesser. If the Mid-Ranger has high fuel supplies (he has a new primary source) he is likely to be malign because he will not be able to resist bragging about his new girlfriend/fiancée/wife etc. in order to provoke a jealous reaction. He will also comment about how much happier he is and how he is better off without you. If his fuel levels are lower (no primary source yet found or it is not performing) he will present in a more pitiful manner and therefore will be benign. He will sign your praises, explain how much he misses you, how empty life is without you and so forth in a bid to draw positive fuel from you and draw you back into the Formal Relationship. By appearing in front of him he cannot forego this opportunity to take centre stage in his own pity play and hoover you.

If you escaped expect the pity to increase. If you were discarded expect the nature of the hoover to be arrogant. The nature of cessation and also its manner will have an aggravating or diminishing factor on the effect caused by the nature of the fuel supplies. The influence of the fuel is greater than the effect of the cessation and how it occurred.

By way of example, if the Mid Ranger has high fuel levels and you escaped, he will be boastful but at the back of his mind he knows you escaped him and he is alive to that fact now. His comments will be passive aggressive in nature,

“Yes well you did what you did but it is okay I forgive you because I have Jessica now.”

If the Mid Ranger has high fuel levels and he discarded you he will extoll the virtues of his new supply without any restraint, singing her praises in order to try to upset you.

If the Mid Ranger has low fuel levels and discarded you, his pity will still be the overwhelming consideration but he will exhibit contrition, as the fact of the discard will temper the contrition somewhat.

If the Mid Ranger has low fuel levels and you escaped, the pity will flow like a river and it was all your fault, you were awful to him and how could you do that to someone like him?

In terms of the ease of contact, since you are in the Mid-Ranger’s close proximity he is not going to pass this opportunity up and therefore, subject to the other considerations, the ease of contact will increase the likelihood of a hoover.

With regard to the nature of the fuel the Mid-Range will be a little more circumspect. Whereas the Lesser will just see prey and bound towards it to nuzzle it or devour it, the Mid-Ranger will exhibit some evaluation of whether the fuel provision will be good or not. If he is able to note that you are still numbed form the encounter with him and therefore less likely to provide potent fuel, he will still hoover (because you are there) but he will not expend a lot of energy in doing so. The conversation will be brief. If he recalls how excellent your fuel was and sees no reason for this to have changed then he will latch on to you for a good feed of fuel.

In respect of obstacles, the Mid-Ranger will have some regard to them. If he perceives that you are going to wound him again or humiliate him (perhaps you are with friends or a new partner) he will still attempt the hoover but the engagement will be brief. If there are no obstacles and subject to the other considerations detailed above, he will hoover you and either be pleasant yet pitiful in order to draw you back in or exhibit arrogance in order to draw negative fuel and lay down a marker in the hope of causing you to feel upset and dismayed you are no longer with him (thus priming you for a different kind of follow-up hoover after this initial skirmish).

The Mid-Ranger will always hoover when you appear in the first sphere. The main considerations are the type of FUH and how sustained it will be.

  1. The Greater

What then of the Greater?

If fuel levels are high then expect a charming hoover which will be a combination of praising you, declaring how well you look, him showing off about his latest achievements, discussing his new car or new paper that he written. He is feeling powerful but also generous with it. You can share in his grandiosity. The Greater will flirt with you even if the new primary source is there. This is too good an opportunity to miss to draw fuel from two sources and copious amounts of it.

If fuel levels are low the Greater will actually be wary. This is because he knows that there is a risk that he will be wounded (see the other considerations) and therefore he is mindful, owing to his awareness, that significant damage might be done to him. He will therefore evaluate the situation carefully before proceeding.

If you were discarded and fuel levels are high, the ebullience of the Greater will override any potential adverse reaction you might exhibit. On the contrary he will think that you will be so delighted to see him that you will fall into his arms in an instant under another dose of concentrated magnetism and charisma.

If you escaped and fuel levels are high, the Greater will relish the opportunity to draw you back in and settle a score not by lashing out but by winning you over again to prove how masterful and commanding he is.

If fuel levels are low and you were discarded, the Greater will sense that fuel remains available and he will approach. If you were discarded with no explanation he knows that if you are angry about the manner of the discard, then he gains fuel. If you are upset about the manner of the discard he gains fuel. If you discarded with some kind of good-bye he knows that you will still hold out hope for the resumption of the Formal Relationship and therefore he will approach and hoover, being cautiously charming and respectful.

If fuel levels are low and you escaped, the Greater will be very wary that you may deal with him in a manner which will wound. He will carefully evaluate the situation. At this juncture he does not have the energy levels to seduce you but he sees an opportunity for fuel on his doorstep, therefore in this situation he will not be looking to charm you (that is more likely to happen on another occasion). Instead he will look to provoke a negative reaction from and lash out at you to shock, upset or anger you. This will be a vitriolic and savage verbal assault aimed at stunning you with is sudden ferocity in order to draw a concentrated burst of negative fuel which will sustain him and allow him to take delight in what he has achieved without further risk to himself.

The ease of contact is straight forward. You are there before him.

The Greater is the best at evaluating the likely fuel to be provided. He will know if you are likely to fountain with fuel and therefore you will prove extremely tempting. It just depends on whether he ought to press the buttons for positive fuel (see considerations above) or to opt for negative as just described. He will also be able to sense if fuel provision is likely to be low (for instance you are adopting low/no fuel techniques or your levels are low owing to the emotional state you are in). He will factor this likely level of reward into determining what he will do. The Greater is more likely to draw fuel (even if levels are low) from you, given his expertise and it is a question of whether it is positive or negative.

The Greater will also take into careful account any potential obstacles before making his move. He will handle any challenge from friends or a new boyfriend for example with ease if his fuel levels are high, by charming and deflecting any attempts to do him down. If fuel levels are low, he will look to draw negative fuel form your supporters as well in a similar way as he will from you with a short, sharp shock.

The Greater will assess the situation before making his move. He will either sweep in full of charm, effusive praise and grandiosity, sweeping you off your feet or slide a knife between your ribs, sink his teeth into your neck and bludgeon those accompanying you before darting away in a smash and grab of negative fuel.

For all three schools your physical presence is too much to resist and you will be hoovered. What is affected is the manner, duration and type of FUH you are subjected to. Accordingly, you should be aware that if you make yourself directly physically available to your narcissist you will be hoovered.

56 thoughts on “Hoover Time – Sphere One (Lesser, Mid Range and Greater Narcissists)

  1. K says:

    Something drastic is happening! My daughter’s teacher is teaching the class about Empathy!!! Holy shit, it’s a miracle! I wonder if it has anything to do with the e-mail I sent re: the substitute teacher being a narcissist.
    (my daughter is learning on-line due to Covid)

    1. Asp Emp says:

      K, I am impressed – well done.

      1. K says:

        Thank you Asp Emp!
        I am persistent in spreading awareness.

    2. NarcAngel says:


      An introduction that way is encouraging. Learning young what empathy is can go a long way to help In later encounters to identify when it is absent or forced. Will be interesting to see what the lesson (content/delivery) consists of.

      1. K says:


        The lesson focussed on the book: Have You Filled a Bucket Today? I was just shocked to hear her say: We are learning about Empathy today. I never heard that word used during my entire childhood that I can recall, ever!

      2. MP says:

        Our local school have also been teaching empathy along with social justice more and more. I think it is a trend everywhere. I personally wouldn’t want little kids to be concerned about figuring out what genuine empathy vs forced empathy is because I don’t think that it is good for them be be narc hunting at such a young age while they are still developing and figuring out the world. I don’t want my kids to have a jaded outlook at such a young age and be judging every benign interaction as whether fake or real. My N mom tried to do that to me, to make me suspicious of people instead of just enjoying the interaction. It is not good for their social skills to be concerned about things like that as young kids. There are so much other stuff in this world that they can learn about and pour their minds into than focus on figuring out what is fake or forced empathy versus real empathy. Although I believe that it is important to teach about kindness and empathy empathy and standing up against bullies.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          You’ve misread and misunderstood.

          I said learning what empathy is now can go a long way in LATER encounters to identify when it is absent or forced. Later meaning later in their lives (when dating, working etc) they may reflect back on what they were taught about empathy and note a difference. No one is advocating for children to be narc hunting. That’s why I also said it would be interesting to see what the content/delivery would consist of.

          1. MP says:

            That would indeed be helpful NA. Also I think it would be helpful to have some lessons about inspiring students to have healthy self esteem and to respect boundaries. Teaching about manners and etiquettes I believe helps reinforce boundaries. We had a Values Education subject in my home country when I was in grade school and it has helped me a lot and made me feel safer to know how to act or behave in public which I wasn’t learning at home.

          2. Asp Emp says:

            MP, I agree – ‘mother’ never explained what is acceptable or not in public – mother being mother, would initiate & provoke my anger in public – how is that conductive to a child’s confidence which was ‘impacted’ throughout teens & adult life – only by learning about narcissism, did I realise…… (fkg hell). It ‘wounds’ me right at this minute but I am not letting my ET rise. Mother (instinctively) wanted other people to see that she had an ‘awkward’ child….. (fkg bi**h…. ok, I am going to post this before the ET does bubble up – mother is still a fkg DEAD bi**h).

          3. MP says:

            Asp Emp,

            I totally understand you. I cannot count how many times I have felt the same way about my own mother. The subject has been very triggering for me in that way too when I was just starting to understand what happened to me and it caused me to have episodes of anger and hatred etc. But eventually as acceptance slowly worked its way inside me I am now able to see things in a more clinical way and it doesn’t bring up strong emotions anymore. You will get there too. Take care.

          4. MP says:

            Asp Emp,

            I want to add that my mom was the same way with me. It really does hurt to have our own parent work to hurt and sabotage us at our most defenseless time and every emotions that we feel is totally warranted.

          5. Asp Emp says:

            MP, I am ok. It was just a moment of ‘me being me’ in relation to ‘mother’ – considering my learning about narcissism is only 7 months – so thank you for saying ‘totally warranted’. Thank you also for sharing that your mother did it to you. My learning has given me understanding, it does not mean I have to ‘forgive’ – because she is dead so basically there is nothing to forgive (yes, ‘mother’ is nothing to me). I am not ‘pushing my emotions’ down, it was just a moment.

          6. MP says:

            Absolutely Asp Emp,

            I have not forgiven a some of the narcissists in my life and I have no plans to and I don’t try to. I’m perfectly content that we are both living our separate lives. With my mom it is very complicated and I have come to a deep acceptance. In some way forgiveness feels cheap to me when the whole situation is taken into consideration. Acceptance feels more appropriate for what I need to have peace inside me.

          7. Asp Emp says:

            MP, thank you for understanding – I think we, as ‘victims’ will come to our own way of feeling / thinking how we ‘process’ the past. We are given the tools to do it, as long as we understand and accept who we are, as individuals.

    3. BC30 says:

      Oh wow. You called out the teacher.

      1. K says:

        Oh, I did BC30! The substitute is a manipulator and I emailed the School Psychologist, the Principal
        the Sub and the classroom teacher and called everyone out. I was not happy.

        1. Asp Emp says:

          K, I can totally understand why you felt it was so important for you (and your daughter) to do this. At the end of the day, other children at the same school will also benefit, leading to their parents to become aware too. The School Psychologist included in the email – kudos to you for that too. It should start the school’s governing board (if any) to review safeguarding practices and so on. Way to go, K 🙂

          1. K says:

            Thank you Asp Emp!
            Combating school bullying isn’t always easy but I make an effort to support the children and the parents.

          2. Asp Emp says:

            K, too right. What better way to do so and effectively initiate the children being taught about empathy. It’s just brill what you have achieved.

    4. Kiki says:

      You sent an email calling a sub teacher a narcissist oh dearie .
      I am in that profession and I can promise you that would not have gone down well with any teacher even the main class teacher or management.

      Professional conduct would not allow any teacher to engage in teaching empathy after an email claiming a fellow sub is a narcissist.

      It’s just my opinion but our profession has been bashed in an unrelenting manner since Covid

      I don’t know what that sub did but I don’t think that conduct is warranted from any parent.It is seriously boundary busting and upsetting to read.


      1. Kiki says:


        This has evoked a lot of anger in me .

        For parents who don’t have the slightest notion of the hell teachers all over the world have gone through.

        Unless you have spent time teaching, and online is teaching at its most brutal you cannot contemplate how difficult it is , I cannot fathom why you would attack a teacher.
        How do you what was said is true ?
        I’ve seen too many parents jump on the bandwagon of let’s torch the teacher when it was their own child’s lack of accountability and responsibility that was the core problem.But of course they never accept that.
        This is becoming an epidemic of abuse that is driving many many teachers out of the profession.

        1. K says:

          Let’s get something straight, I did not attack a teacher. Er….I witnessed her behavior on-line so I can see what she is doing. There’s a male teacher in the high school fucking the females students, do you think I should keep my mouth shut about that????

          And the music teacher is a fucking bully too, but I haven’t called her out on it…yet.

          1. Kiki says:

            I never told you to keep your mouth shut.

            I am calling out disrespectful potentially damaging behaviour towards a teacher.

            Calling someone you do not know a narcissist in an email to their management is not right regardless of your perception of what’s going on or not.


      2. Kiki says:


        I can tell you now every teacher in the school will find out what you said such is the way things are .
        They will think you are a narcissist or a crazy parent .

        You could have politely contacted that teacher and discussed the perceived problem in an adult professional , respectful manner.Your personal opinions should be kept out of professional dialogue.

        Calling a teacher a Narc in an email , sheds a very poor light on the way you handled this .

        Sorry but that is my opinion of it .

        1. K says:

          Newsflash Kiki!
          The teachers have approached me, in the past, expressing their concerns about how they get NO support from the Principal or the Administration re: bullying issues in the classroom and they asked me to advocate for a teacher at a School Committee Meeting, who was being unfairly disciplined by the Superintendent re: a bullying issue, so I suspect that they don’t think I am the narcissist or crazy parent. Nice try though.

          I did contact the Sub in an adult and respectful manner and she IGNORED (silent treatment) my 2 emails so, after a week, I contacted the others to resolve issue.

          Do you usually make baseless assumptions like this, because it sheds very poor light on you and speaks volumes about your character but that’s just my opinion.

      3. K says:

        Massachusetts state Bullying Laws allow ANY parent to report a teacher or a student who abuses or bullies students in the classroom, online or on school property. I don’t know if it was connected to my recent emails or if it was from the original emails that I sent re: bullying several years ago. Either way, it is nice to see the teacher teaching empathy in the classroom.

        The Sub put my daughter into a breakout room on zoom with 2 children who bullied her in the past, when I emailed her about it, she completely ignored my emails so she can go fuck herself. Also, other parents have complained about her behavior towards their children in the classroom and the staff knows that she is “off” based on the feedback I have gotten.

        1. Kiki says:


          You only know the situation but the point is if it was zoom your daughter could have logged off , no need to see the bullies that’s that .It’s an online class .

          Emails The teacher may have been busy we receive many many emails and are busy teaching and correcting.

          A teacher fucking students, possible but doubtful just make sure you have tons of evidence for that one .

          Also a problem with the music teacher.😳


    5. Kiki says:

      Do you even realise how silly and self centred this comment is .

      I can assure you it has nothing to do with your email , which by the way is a crass judgment on someone you don’t know .Also defamation of character towards that teacher .

      I’m truly shocked as a teacher myself.

      1. K says:

        Wrong. If no one speaks up then nothing will change.

        Wrong again. It was not a crass judgement; it was an observation and it is VERY clear that you know absolutely nothing about defamation of character. You should Google it.

        I wrote that I suspected that the Sub was NPD, it was very clear that she was manipulating and I provided evidence and several other parents accused the Sub of bullying their children.

        You should read this because it is very clear that your ET is up your ass.


    6. WhoCares says:

      Some teachers are narcissists, even at the elementary school level, it’s a fact.

      1. Kiki says:


        I agree

        Yes that is true , there are plenty of Narc teachers I agree but I cannot say I agree or condone calling anyone you are not personally close too out on being a narcissist in that context where it could damage someone.
        If the teacher in question isn’t a narcissist this could be very very damaging to their career and their morale / self esteem.
        If they are then it can only be reported in a responsible manner with sufficient evidence of wrong doing , not he said she said etc , without any diagnosis’s of them being a Narc even if you think they are .


        1. WhoCares says:


          I didn’t speak to K’s action with regard to the substitute teacher.
          I just stated a fact.

          “If the teacher in question isn’t a narcissist this could be very very damaging to their career and their morale / self esteem.”

          We are, most of us, aware of the damage that can be done to a career, self-esteem, family, children etc., as a consequence of being an empath (or non-narcissist) on the receving end of false accusations.

          You suggested this in an earlier comment: “You could have politely contacted that teacher and discussed the perceived problem in an adult professional , respectful manner.”
          Which is a reasonable means of dealing with a reasonable person.

          I am curious Kiki, if you had a child who was being targeted by a narcissist teacher (let’s just say a narcississt confirmed by HG), what action would undertake?

          1. WhoCares says:

            what action would *you undertake?

          2. Kiki says:

            This depends on perspective.

            A teacher placing a student in time out is never done with disregard for the student.
            Most teachers are really just too tired , exhausted etc to be thinking about bullying a student.
            Yes these Narc teachers do exist but they are rare and if anything I can say from witnessing it the Narc teacher’s actually play to the students, never putting a foot down and concentrate on bullying colleagues more .
            Why risk their career.?
            It happens very rarely , of course I won’t be trusted on this but from my experience it’s true .
            If this teacher is a bully and we accept that fair enough but that does not give anyone a right to name call that person a narcissist in an email .
            A romantic situation is very different as you know that person intimately.
            Who gives us the right to make snap judgements on a person we don’t know.
            Ok if it’s a long term narcissist relationship where there is plenty of evidence.
            I can see K statement about several teachers is seriously over the top , K is working from her perspective her narrative.

            If there is a problem with a teacher that is fine but it should be handled in a mature and reasonable manner .
            I don’t see any major evidence of narcissist abuse from Ks posts .
            I see two sides to every story and such a situation could destroy an innocent teachers reputation because of another’s perspective .
            I’ve seen this time and time again in my profession
            Believe me 99 percent of teachers are not out for students, we have enough on our plate
            Maybe just maybe you might have a pissed off teacher worn down by demands .That is nothing new.
            I am an extremely critical thinker and always look at both sides before I jump to conclusions that fit my own narrative.


          3. WhoCares says:


            “Most teachers are really just too tired , exhausted..”
            I believe you. I am sure that is often the case during this pandemic. In particular I know the extra mile that the Principal and administrative staff go to at my son’s school, because our family situation is unique, but I have felt very supported by them.

            “Yes these Narc teachers do exist but they are rare”

            I disagree with this statement,
            I think they are not rare at all in teaching professions. Neither of us can be sure, but teaching can offer plenty of opportunity for facade management and the control of young minds. Actually, I am of the opinion that a narc teacher is not necessarily a bad thing – they can cause a student to strive. They usually are more motivated for their students to meet (or exceed) curriculum standards because it reflects well on them.

            “the Narc teacher’s actually play to the students, never putting a foot down and concentrate on bullying colleagues more .
            Why risk their career.?”

            If they are narcissists, they wouldn’t be aware that they bully students, if they were doing so. As a result, they may very well, unknowingly, risk their career.

            I don’t know if you’re more offended by K’s saying that the substitute teacher is a narcissist, putting it on record, how K handled the situation, or all of the above. But also, you are that much farther removed from the situation to make judgements about the substitute teacher and K’s choice of action in the matter. However, I could see how being a teacher yourself and well aware of their struggles, would make you extra sensitive to the issue.

            Agreed that it is something that should be considered very carefully if one is going to proceed with making accusations. But at the same time I don’t doubt K’s ability to see the manipulations of a narcissist. In fact, I have been impressed by her ability to point these out, in various scenarios, in a structured, analytical way.
            I know that, personally, as I apply my learning here in practical situations in real life, it becomes more and more easy to see the manipulations. Once you learn to identify them, it comes to you more quickly because they are all so textbook.
            For example, (you are free to doubt me) I know that my son’s current teacher is a narcissist. I have considered doing remote learning because of this and wanting to lower the percentage of time my son spends in the company of narcs (he sees his father for a very limited time.) His teacher lacks accountibility, she scapegoats certain students, she triangulates them and she does a modicum of effort a lot of the time. You could put the lack of effort down to being tired and exhausted, yes – however, I know staff (the Principal and one of the admin staff) who should be tired and frustrated but continue to put in effort, accountability and they are pleasant people while they are doing all this. My son’s teacher does not respond to direct emails, and I have had to approach the Principal for follow up. She singles out one student in the class for breaking a rule and then withholds a fun activity from the entire class because of this one student’s actions which causes all of the students to be resentful and blaming towards the one individual. She lets them surf YouTube on their own when they have Chromebook time – this is without supervision – I know because my son has told me the stuff he has looked up (nothing inappropriate but no one is monitoring it). She makes a mountain out of a mole hill when students have had a conflict between each other, by dragging it up when even the students themselves have forgiven each other and moved on (these are 8 year olds). My son has learned from her that adults cannot be trusted to listen and hear you out – so there is no point when another student has engaged in a physically hurtful action and he has asked them to stop and they don’t. So, the next step should be to go to the adult or teacher in the situation but his teacher doesn’t care and doesn’t believe him. But that’s okay, because this learning will serve him well if he ever has more time with his father: you cannot trust all adults.
            Anyway, because of this I have considered home-schooling but I really want for him to spend time and socialize with his peers. Because of his family situation he has spent more time around adults than other kids and he has had his fair share of instability, so I don’t want to change up a lot of things if I can avoid it. And it’s really hard when it’s just the two of us during lockdown etc., so he needs to get out and be around other kids…I cannot be his playmate all day long and it isn’t good for either of us.
            If I weren’t dealing with his narc father, legal stuff and the pandemic, I might actually attempt to address some of the issues with his teacher – but I also wouldn’t want to fuel her, or challenge her in a way that would put my son at any additional risk. He enjoys his friends and is doing well academically.
            All that to say that I think it is a very personal decision when it comes down to dealing with these situations in an academic setting…and outside of HG logic, and GOSO, there is a limitation of how these things can be handled, especially during a lockdown, etc.

            “I am curious Kiki, if you had a child who was being targeted by a narcissist teacher (let’s just say a narcississt confirmed by HG), what action would undertake?”

            It isn’t easy to answer, but you didn’t really answer the above question.

          4. Kiki says:


            Firstly we must look at perspective and see what is going on from both sides.

            1 .I would contact the teacher and explain the situation in a respectful non Accusatory way .

            2 Remember there are two sides to this .
            Ask if my child is behaving if not what is the problem and why they were treated this way .
            (Sent out of a Zoom class I think )
            Ask my child exactly what happened.

            3 Hear out the teacher and then work on a solution.

            99 percent of the time a teacher will be happy to work alongside a concerned parent and fix things.

            4 . If bullying continues I would record exactly what happened/ when / what .

            5 . Contact management to have a meeting with said teacher .With report of incidents.

            It is then a management issue .

            6. I would not dare accuse a person I don’t know if being a narcissist in an email .No matter how enlightened I think I am on the subject.
            That goes for anyone I have a formal relationship with not just teachers.
            I just wouldn’t, even if I THINK they are .
            It is in itself a smear , and as I said it could potentially destroy a teachers reputation if I am WRONG.

            Imagine how that sub teacher must feel now .
            Sick to their stomach I imagine.


        2. K says:

          You have absolutely ZERO knowledge about what is going on, yet you came out on the attack. Your truthseeker traits are seriously lacking.

          “I can see K statement about several teachers is seriously over the top , K is working from her perspective her narrative”

          When students or parents tell me about bullying/inappropriate sexual relationships with teachers, I don’t invalidate them. That’s empathy;

          This statement below is wrong because you most certainly did jump to MANY conclusions.

          “I am an extremely critical thinker and always look at both sides before I jump to conclusions that fit my own narrative.”

          You are not an extremely critical thinker; you went on the attack without any information whatsoever so you could fit it into YOUR own one-sided narrative.

      2. K says:


        1. Kiki says:

          Ok I will give a scenario here of what and this just my opinion a real Narc teacher is.
          I have several whom I work with , I cannot say they actually narcissist as I haven’t done a Narc detector with HG on them but I have experienced devaluation, triangulation and smearing from at least one .

          From my own observation this is the general thing I’ve noticed

          They have a hero complex around students , they never ever fall out with students as they do not set boundaries that may make them disliked by students.

          They manipulate students but it’s I. A way that makes them look good not bad .

          They bully and triangulate sub ordinate staff members with students , other teachers and management even parents .

          Trust me this does go on but the teacher having a hissy fit due to work done or behaviour is actually usually the one that cares .Students, parents may not see that but believe me it’s mostly true.

          I do not want to cause grief here but I have seen Narc teachers at work and it plays out as above .
          It’s never the students involved they are part of the grandiose charade of the Narc teachers.


          1. WhoCares says:

            Sense of entitlement and no boundary recognition..and it’s never the students involved??

            “It’s never the students involved they are part of the grandiose charade of the Narc teachers.”

            Um… okay.

          2. Kiki says:

            I didn’t explain that well

            Narc teachers do not bother getting into situations with students parents etc .
            They have a perfect teacher / hero facade .

            They smear triangulate and manipulate other teachers ,to make themselves look good .

            Let me say the Narc teacher is most likely to be the one smiling sweetly at you during a PTA meeting, praising your child to get on your side ( even if that student is an obnoxious brat disrupting the learning in class or is not achieving academic goals)This won’t be reported to you.
            Why the Narc teacher has to look great , no issues in their class .

            This teacher is too busy burying the knife in colleagues backs to make themselves look , they ALWAYS have to look good .

            That’s the difference.


          3. Siren says:

            Kiki, Not to step where I haven’t been requested but I’d have to say some aren’t as ‘hero’ as you have experienced… I was singled out and triangulated by one teacher to the point I didn’t want to go to school anymore, I was always quite excited to go to school so my mother was very concerned. She made me wet myself by refusal to let me use the restroom then sent me to sit in the hall, would make up rhymes or stories that got me ridiculed by my peers ‘abaluta *my name* has a great big fanny’. The list goes on… I was in the first grade and was a shy but polite student that was eager to please and very helpful. It didn’t make any sense till finding HG’s work. When my mom asked nicely why I was being singled out the teacher freaked out on her and claimed to need time off because of her treatment. My mom was as shy and polite as me and quite small in build, didn’t raise her voice or act intimidating at all. Was also actively involved with the school. Further digging since discovery of HG I’ve come to realize my father had to be a narc, and that might be part of that as being the empathic child in my house I was his scapegoat, my mom hasn’t been ED’d yet but is enough like me I’m quite sure she’s an empath as well. So truth is they like to pick a target in class (not the only teacher I’ve seen this with) and lead the other students to treat that student like they do. Most aren’t as direct as my 1st grade teacher was and I wasn’t always the target. Just an outside perspective… 🙂 P.s. I’ve been in teaching positions so I understand the stress, but I can vouch my experience was very narc abuse in nature, I’ve always had good grades and tried to be helpful and kind, I was a shy nerd but got along with everyone, opposite my brother who was the kind to throw chalk in the fan and provoke the class bully lol.

          4. WhoCares says:


            Thank-you for telling your story. I am sorry it happened to you. It is an excellent example of how targeting of a student could go under the radar. At least you had an empathetic mother who spoke on your behalf, even with the nasty backlash.
            I am glad you have found your way to HG’s work and can make sense of past experiences like that.

        2. Kiki says:


          HG states that his Narc Detector results are not to be shared with a third party .
          I do not know if this sub is a narcissist or not .
          My bottom line point is I do not think it’s right for anyone to accuse someone of being a narcissist in writing within a formal professional relationship.

          I never said bullying should not be dealt with of course it should and it’s a serious matter .


        3. Kiki says:


          I recognise I am going to be inherently bias about this as I am a teacher .

          It has triggered me big time .

          My reasons

          I have seen a massive amount of disrespect and hurtful comments thrown at teachers since this pandemic began.

          So much so I literally started questioning why I wanted to be a teacher anymore.
          I broke down in lockdown and had to take time out from my job due to immense stress and always feeling like you are not doing enough , not jumping to everyone’s whims , caring about hundreds of students but not yourself.You get the kind student who will light up your day but I notice an ugly pattern of an increasing sense of entitlement amongst students and parents who feel entitled to pick teachers to shreds.

          Look at any teacher forum from around the world and you will see the teachers of the world are burnt out , disillusioned yet constantly we are taunted about online teaching, doing nothing , not doing enough , etc etc.

          I myself am now truly thinking of changing careers I’ve witnessed the absolute lack of respect and sneers from the general public.
          Covid has been a catalyst.

          Teachers are overworked, overwhelmed , but we have been demoralised and I will say abused as a profession since this pandemic began .


          1. WhoCares says:


            I am really sorry you had a breakdown and required time away from your job during lockdown. I actually don’t know how teachers do it – because I know of the struggles with just homeschooling one child myself (I didn’t have the technology to do remote learning the first time my area went into full lockdown) with old school pencil and paper and photocopies from his teacher.
            I am sure the stresses of the pandemic, technology issues, work stresses etc. are all compounding things for teachers – especially empathic ones. Because they will be extra sensitive to all the demands put on them. I really hope you are doing better.

            I can understand that you would be triggered by what K reported. And I can’t say that I would have handled the matter the same as K. I am currently in an ongoing legal matter where I do everything humanly possible to NOT call out my ex as a narcissist – and so far it has been playing to my advantage and has resulted in increased protection for my child (I also follow most of HG’s recommendations to the best of my ability.)
            My major points for you were that you were accusing K of jumping to conclusions – but similarly you were jumping to conclusions about her situation.
            My second point is that, realistically, the belief that teachers who are narcissists will always refrain from direct manipulation or poor treatment of students is misguided. I think it would often go under the radar due to the magic of the facade or the choosing of students who are less likely to speak out.
            Personally, I agree with you, that it is not a good idea to call out someone as a narcissist and can have results that backfire. Although, I doubt that is going to happen in K’s situation.

            In my situation, I am thankful that my son is not being directly targeted by his teacher. And I would never call her out as a narcissist. But I may feel differently if I was the mother of the scapegoated child in my son’s class who was being the subject of dislike and resentment because of the teacher’s triangulation.

  2. BC30 says:

    My favorite article artwork. 💜💜💜

  3. Isabella says:

    Hi everyone! I’m having a hard time just pushing the like bottom on HG’s site. I push like, and it just takes me out of the website and disappears. Does anyone know how to fix this? I just deleted WordPress thinking this would help but did the same thing. Thanks

    1. A Victor says:

      Hi Isabella, it is tricky. I do all my likes from WordPress now, and hope they stay. It’s much easier to respond directly there too.

      1. Siren says:

        I’ve been struggling with the same issue! I’ll have to look into using wordpress not sure how to go about that but I’m sure I’ll figure it out, thank you for the info AV 🙂

  4. Asp Emp says:

    First thing that springs to mind is Hannibal Lecter in Silence of the Lambs film….. him doing the snfsnfsnf effect…… when Clarice Starling comes to visit him….. (laughing)….. don’t ask me why that came to mind – maybe I am too ‘liberated’ – mentally & emotionally ‘freed’ with having the “psychological trash” disposed of. No-one can actually be “too liberated”.

    1. A Victor says:

      Asp Emp,

      “Maybe I am… No one actually can be…”. Love it.

    2. BC30 says:

      I love what she’s wearing; it’s basically my first wedding gown, if you extend the skirt to the floor and add a Cathedral length train. I didn’t want to wear white, so I did gold and cream ivory.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        BC30, I don’t think I deserve to be wearing white either (laughing).

        1. BC30 says:


          1. Asp Emp says:


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