The Dirty Empath – Infidelity


The Empath. Regarded as a paragon of virtue with those traits of honesty, decency, compassion, love devotee, moral compass and so on. All of which make the empath and their fuel output tempting prey for us. Yet alongside these virtuous empathic traits sit other traits, narcissistic traits.

There are four schools of empath (Standard, Super, Co-Dependent and Contagion) . Layered on to these schools are the empathic cadres (such as Magnet, Carrier and Geyser).

Each empath within the relevant school has both empathic and narcissistic traits. Some will have a small number of strong empathic traits with few narcissistic traits which are low in strength. Some will have many empathic traits which are moderate in strength and have few or numerous narcissistic traits which are all very low in strength. Some will have many empathic traits which are strong and numerous narcissistic traits which are moderate or even quite strong. The key consideration is that, in effect, the empathic traits keep the narcissistic ones ‘in check’ and thus the empathic individuals behave in a way which is empathic with other people.

There are however two main instances when the narcissistic traits come to the fore. The first is through when the empathic traits become ‘dialled down’ or eroded for a temporary time and thus the narcissistic traits come to the fore, this can manifest in many different ways and includes the Empathic Supernova and The Cliff Fightback. The second instance is a permanent state of affairs and this is the class of the Dirty Empath. The individual is empathic, of that there is no doubt, they have those empathic traits, they also have narcissistic traits too, however one of those narcissistic traits remains strong and prominent throughout and sits alongside the fewer, weaker narcissistic traits and the various empathic traits of varying strength. This does not mean this person is a narcissist, not at all. It does not mean that this person is not an empath. What it means is that they are an empath but there is one (sometimes there might be more) narcissistic trait which ‘dirties’ their empathic status. Think of the empath coloured white with a black streak running through them.

This class of Dirty Empath has various streaks which appertain to the relevant narcissistic trait which prevails and this includes the streak of infidelity.

Thus where the empath is already in a romantic relationship, whether living together,boyfriend and girlfriend or married and they embark on a romantic, sexual relationship outside of that relationship, their narcissistic trait of infidelity has risen to the surface and remained there. What has caused that to happen? As ever, it is a symbiotic equation.

From the empath’s side there is something not right within their existing relationship which means that the narcissistic trait comes to the fore.

For instance, let us take the example whereby the spouse of the empath is either an empath or a normal and has become impotent and/or has no interest in sex any more. All else is well within the relationship – they care for the empath, they pull their weight around the home, they are a good parent, they have a decent job and so on. All is largely well, save for the issue of sexual relations. In such a situation, the empathic spouse has the following choices:-

  1. Recognise that all else is well within the relationship, that sex is but one facet (albeit an important one) and accept that it is better to have all of the other good elements of the relationship and therefore not seek to damage the relationship or hurt their spouse by seeking sexual interaction outside of the marriage. This is the response of an empath who has no dirty streak of the narcissistic trait of infidelity;
  2. As above save that the empath regards sex as so significant that they need it yet they do not want to hurt their spouse. Accordingly, they seek their spouse’s blessing to seek sex outside of the marriage but otherwise want nothing more external to the relationship. This is the response of an empath who has the narcissistic trait of infidelity but it is not so strong as to amount to a dirty streak;
  3. As per point one, save that the empath craves sexual interaction and knows it can only be achieved outside of the relationship. They therefore seek out sexual encounters with other people but have no desire to leave the existing relationship. This individual’s narcissistic dirty streak has risen to the fore and governed the behaviour of this particular empath.

With regard to this third element it remains relatively rare that the empath will do this unilaterally because their traits of guilt, honesty, decency and compassion will fight against the desire to accommodate the narcissistic desire of infidelity. If the narcissistic trait is very strong, the empath may still seek out these encounters and have them with normal people, an empath in a similar position to their own or find a narcissist.

What happens more often than not in this third situation is that the empath spouse has been targeted by our kind.

An empath with no narcissistic streak of infidelity (or a very low one) will resist the sexual overtures of the narcissist. They may remain as a Non Intimate Secondary Source to the narcissist. It is highly unlikely they would be targeted to begin with in any event by the narcissist.

An empath with a narcissistic streak of infidelity, which is greater than very low, will succumb to the overtures of the narcissist and find themselves engaged in an affair, breaking their wedding vows, breaching the trust of their partner and becoming sucked in to the world of the narcissist. If the narcissistic streak of infidelity is very strong, the empath may even have sought out (unconsciously) the narcissist.

Combine the narcissistic streak of infidelity in the Dirty Empath and a narcissist and infidelity is a given. How this pans out very much depends on the desires and wants of the narcissist. Please see the latter part of The Married Target as to how we are drawn to those who are married and are thus susceptible to our overtures. We may want the empath to become our IPPS and thus they are designated the role of Candidate IPSS as we love bomb them and lure them away from their spouse using our range of manipulations in the way that is described in ‘The Married Target’. It may be the case that both Dirty Empath and narcissist are content with an arrangement whereby the Dirty Empath is a Shelf IPSS and sees the narcissist intermittently and is treated as a friend with benefits, side person or mistress. Both parties are content with this. The narcissist gains in accordance with The Prime Aims and the Dirty Empath scratches that itch for sex outside of the marriage (coupled with the excitement that accords with it) but keeps their own relationship intact.

Sometimes the Dirty Empath becomes the Dirty Little Secret and is content with that arrangement also.

Note however that whether the Dirty Empath is a Candidate IPSS, Shelf IPSS or Dirty Little Secret, this is always at the behest and control of the narcissist. The Dirty Empath may willingly embrace the dynamic (unaware of course that they are with a narcissist and what their role is) as it fulfils the desires of the narcissistic trait of infidelity.

The issue arises however when the Dirty Empath wants to remain in the role of Shelf IPSS or DLS but the narcissist wants the empath to become the IPPS. Battle is joined to pull the Dirty Empath in the direction the narcissist requires with all of the drama, triangulation and heartache that follows. The problem for the Dirty Empath is that having allowed themselves to be governed by the narcissistic streak of infidelity they have already trampled over their partner and the narcissist knows this. In the same way you cannot get a little bit pregnant, you cannot be a little bit unfaithful, you either are not or you are.

Where the Dirty Empath has hitherto enjoyed being the Shelf IPSS or DLS, keeping this activity secret from their partner and enjoying all the other benefits of the best of both worlds, it is the narcissist who ultimately calls the tune and if he or she wants that Dirty Empath in a different role, the narcissist will strive to make it happen. If the Dirty Empath will not accord with the change of allocated role then he or she can expect their partner to be told of their infidelity and invariably the narcissist will have evidence (photos, film, documentary evidence of hotel trysts, oral testimony from Lieutenants) to use against the Dirty Empath. If the threat of release of this material does not persuade the Dirty Empath to submit to the whim of the narcissist, then it will be released. The hitherto painted white Dirty Empath will be painted black, they will be devalued prior to dis-engagement and their own existing relationship with spouse or partner will be the prime target of the narcissist for the purposes of causing its destruction and spreading misery. The need to punish the disobedient Dirty Empath and the significant fuel available (negative fuel from IPSS, negative fuel from secondary/tertiary cuckolded spouse, negative fuel from secondary/tertiary sources allied with said spouse and/or Dirty Empath, positive fuel from loyal secondary/tertiary sources to the narcissist) means that the chances of the Dirty Empath being ‘let off’ are virtually nil.

The Dirty Empath may find they can keep their own infidelity quiet for some time, remain as a DLS or Shelf IPSS and enjoy an elongated golden period with the narcissist, but they have no control over that. If it continues that way, this is purely down to the approach of the narcissist. There remains a risk that the narcissist will wish to change the dynamic and with that comes significant consequences for the playing away Dirty Empath, his or her spouse, partner and family.

Those who “give in” to their narcissistic trait (and this is usually because a narcissist has ‘sniffed out’ this Dirty Empath will eventually end up suffering.

This happens in the following circumstances :-

  1. The DE is DLS or Shelf IPSS for some time and then the narcissist wants to promote them to Candidate IPSS and then IPPS, but the DE does not want this as this will blow open their infidelity;
  2. The DE is DLS or Shelf IPSS for some time and then the narcissist decides to dis-engage against the will of the DE;
  3. The DE wants to become the IPPS of the narcissist, but the narcissist does not want this to happen;
  4. The DE wants to become the IPPS of the narcissist, achieves this, leaves their former spouse with all of the attendant heartache that causes and then enjoys a golden period with their newly acquired (but unrecognised) narcissist. Of course you know what is coming next don’t you? Yes, the DE IPPS is then devalued and dis-engaged from. Their narcissistic streak of infidelity has seen them lured from an otherwise satisfying relationship, drawn by the golden allure of the unrecognised narcissist only for that to collapse and now they find themselves alone, rejected and often hated by narcissist and the cuckolded spouse they once had.

The Dirty Empath with the narcissistic streak of infidelity who becomes ensnared by our kind is only heading for misery. They do not have the lack of remorse, lack of conscience or lack of guilt that allows us to drive ever forward. Instead they are left to rue the consequences of this narcissistic trait being intensified and exploited by our kind.

Further articles will follow concerning the various streaks of the Dirty Empath.

160 thoughts on “The Dirty Empath – Infidelity

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  2. Anna says:

    Wow Mr. T… Seems like you picked up my signal, as I had been reflecting on this period of my life over the last few days. It’s genuinely helpful to have such a spot on analysis! The “dirty empathy” is quite the legitimate label 😅

    I fell in the last category of impulsively acting out desires due to a long-standing shelf, or as I call it, bang buddy dynamic with a now known narc who was previously a serious partner. Just as you wrote, I was overall satisfied in the new relationship, but the sex was unfortunately an overriding point of comparison. On one hand, it was more intimate and heart centered, and on the other, less “dirty” and physically gratifying.

    So, under the sex spell, I found myself with the other guy once again. It didn’t happen a lot, but enough to play a role in backing away from the new relationship, subconsciously feeling that “this time” it will be different. This time we’re going back to how we once were.

    Oh how emotional thinking erodes one’s sense of judgment! A few months later, the casual devaluation and emptiness within his shell hit me in the face and I started a “no contact” regime. All the while, still unaware of the covert narcissist terminology.

    For over 3 months, there were no texts, calls or anything at all. And then, he messaged me regarding a piece of my mail he received, thereby ending the no contact plan! 🤡 Another 3 months passed, it was just before Christmas and we got together. Since then, as per usual, it’s pretty much been a monthly meetup situation. As you noted, I’ve been “content,” despite realizing yet AGAIN that it has no substance.

    By the grace of internet discovery, one of your YouTube videos popped up on the feed about a week ago. Thus prompting a mass listening party with myself everyday 🤠

    At first I was hesitant to believe that he really was a narcissist, because he’s more introverted and not what I would consider a control freak. Then, as I learned more video by video, I saw just how much I’ve been devalued and just how much there was a lack of emotional empathy, given almost 6 years of experience with someone. His cognitive empathy was convincing at times though. So, he’s on the lower end of the scale in my book, but just knowing that is pivotal.

    Ultimately, I cannot thank you enough for the wealth of wisdom you have inspired!! May you be blessed in unfathomable ways, HG 🌞🦋💜

  3. A Victor says:

    I was a dirty empath once and, though I am not proud at having made that choice, it has caused me to have empathy for others who have made that choice as well. Prior I might have judged, which is not my place.

    1. leelasfuelstinks says:

      Amen, sister! I was lucky. At the beginning I was tempted. But fortunately the decision was made for me. He prefers wanking by far! 🙂 Middle Mid Ranger A elite ,but predominantly CEREBRAL! Yessss! 🙂 😀 Still not ready with counting my blessings. 😉

      We are only humans. We are Empaths, not angels 😉 Full empathy, full understanding!

      1. Alexissmith2016 says:

        I’m intrigued by your ‘wanker’ Leela. I have a MMR probably A and very likely elite leaning more towards the somatic. He describes himself as something of a white knight but also has some degree of awareness as he very occasionally toyed with the idea he was a psychopath, at least In the beginning. I only interact with him occasionally via work. Long story short he has never hit on me in person but often try’s to sext and also happily sends me unwanted dick pics for nothing in return? He is seriously OCD about cleanliness and I suspect he doesn’t like the exchange of bodily fluids despite being seemingly elite/somatic? I’ve not experienced this before Hahahah

        I’d love your views on your one leela and why the wanking without the physical.

        Even the one who seduced me whilst I suspect was not hugely into sex etc at least actually physically kissed me.

        1. A Victor says:

          Alexxissmith, and you’re married, correct? Geez, where can I find one of these?! Just kidding. 😂

          1. alexissmith2016 says:

            One that sends dick pics AV? I’ll send you his number haha

          2. A Victor says:

            Yes, that one! Lol! Single and can’t get even one! My lot in life. I should probably be counting my blessings at that!

          3. alexissmith2016 says:

            Being single would be preferable to this one. I really fancy him but if I was single, I know it would end up in a very callous discard.

            You deserve someone lovely and loyal and funny and appreciative AV. I’m sure there will be one just around the corner x

          4. A Victor says:

            Aw, thank you Alexissmith!

        2. leelasfuelstinks says:

          As my narc is a predominantly cerebral elite, he has the sexual behaviour of a cerebral. Prefers wanking in the bolthole by far, seemed even to be grossed out by my body (dressed, not naked of course). I´m not fat, not skinny, not stinky and not radioactive, nor have I a serious infection 😉 Sexually he was not vanilla for sure! He wanked like crazy.

          He openly admitted that he prefers wanking to sex and that he only has sex when it comes to a serious relationship (aka ensnaring a victim). Why wanking? Because he abhors intimacy. He did not send me dick pics, nor did we have sexting. The wanking came from the fuel.

          Haven´t experienced that before either! Elite doesn´t mean somatic: cerebral = 50:50. Elite can be any mish mash and there must be also asexual or hyposexual elites (those with a cerebral sexuality).

          Elites are just a mix between cerebral and somatic traits. They can be more somatic or more cerebral. Even though your narc seemed to be more somatic, his sexuality looks like a mish-mash. As H.G. used to say “The two cadres bleed into each other”.

        3. Leigh says:

          Alexis says, ” he has never hit on me in person but often try’s to sext and also happily sends me unwanted dick pics for nothing in return?”

          My husband sat across from me on our 25th wedding anniversary and said absolutely nothing. Then proceesd to leave for work. He sat in his truck and posted on social media, wishing me a Happy Anniversary.

          What the actual fuck???

          My guess is either its fear of rejection or a corrective devaluation. A face to face rejection may cause a massive wound. If there’s no response to a text or posting on social media, the narcissist can shift the blame to an outside source. For instance, they’re busy at work or sleeping. If he’s face to face, he can’t do that. The corrective devaluation may be to send the message that you aren’t good enough to receive any face to face acknowledgement.

          1. alexissmith2016 says:

            That is horrible Leigh what a fucking asshole!

            Yes I have thought it may be fear of rejection. I am rather attracted to him but clearly dont want to fall for him for so many reasons. Because of that I’ve put up many barriers, e.g. when we have a drink after a business meeting, I always make sure I can only stay for an hour etc. But, that said, given he comes across as incredibly confident, I would not have expected that to deter him. Hence me wondering. So I suspect you’re right, its a corrective devaluation.

          2. Leigh says:

            Alexis, its fucking bizarre. I almost feel like they need us to be the one to approach them. That manipulating or forcing us to be the initiator gives them power. I feel like they are thinking, “I’m so fantastic that they come running after me.” I don’t know. It makes my head hurt, lol.

          3. A Victor says:

            Good grief Leigh! What an ass! I just caught this comment, so sorry he did this to you. And it’s these things we cannot explain to anyone as they would not understand why it is hurtful, so we are isolated as well and the narc, for posting publicly, looks like the good guy, we’re the complainer. At least people here do understand, that is helpful.

            Referencing the other part, my experience in the pick-up phase has been that they are very bold. Over the top bold sometimes. I should’ve seen those red flags, I will going forward (I hope).

          4. BC30 says:

            Leigh, so I guess you didn’t mention your anniversary at all? I would have thought that he wouldn’t have wished you a happy anniversary if he thought that would be more hurtful to “forget” about it. I wonder what he’s thinking since you’ve changed. I know HG doesn’t believe in grey rock, but surely, since finding KTN, your attitude and actions have changed to a noticeable extent.

          5. Leigh says:

            BC30, I didn’t say Happy Anniversary on purpose. I wanted to see what he he would do. You see, to him, its a HUGE deal. He thinks he’s the best thing since sliced bread and he thinks that its FANTASTIC that we’ve been together this long. He thinks, “see how amazing I am as a husband, we’ve been together for 35 years and married for 25 years.” I couldn’t help myself, I wanted to wound him. Has he noticed I changed? I don’t know. He hasn’t said anything. Probably not though because his narcissism makes him think he’s a fantastic husband. I’ve always been a little cold and distant. I’ve always kind of had my wall up. I don’t like hugs or like to be touched and sex isn’t really big thing for me either. So those things are still the same. Plus I had a Cliff Fightback moment in December. I exploded and he’s backed off for now. He doesn’t want to risk losing me right now because I still meet all the Prime Aims. He’s a victim narcissist and needs me for everything.

          6. BC30 says:

            You had a Cliff Fightback? I’m surprised to hear that based on your schools. I’ll go back and re-read about CF. I’m sure he noticed, but not likely to let on. I’d venture to say you did wound because not mentioning it at all was not a challenge. Curious.

          7. Leigh says:

            In my time with my husband, I’ve had 3 Cliff Fightbacks. After every one of them, there’s been a substantial respite period. I only know this now because of everything I have learned here. I’m carrier, savior and geyser. I guess its the geyser that fights back.

            When he posted it in on social media, I did respond so if there was wounding, that might have alleviated the wounding. There was no fury though. Not heated or cold fury. Nothing. Unless he took it out on someone else.

          8. Leigh says:

            I was thinking more about this. Is he noticing that there’s a change in me? Maybe but he won’t believe that the change is due to him. He will blame shift to some other reason, an external reason that is out of his control. After my fightback he said to my daughter, “I think your mom is stressed over money. I think that’s why she got so upset the other day.” That was the second assertion of control. He used a NISS, our daughter, to assert control over me. By the way BC30, I’m not stressed about money. As a matter fact, I’m in a really good place financially right now. His narcissism wouldn’t allow him to take on the blame, so he found an external reason. So could he know that I’ve changed? Yes. But he won’t take any accountability for that change.

            As for wounding him because I didn’t say anything about our anniversary, maybe I did. Looking back at it now, I can see where there was withdrawal (the third assertion of control). That happened when he got up and left for work without mentioning our anniversary. Then when he posted on social media, that was the second assertion of control. He was indirectly asserted control.

          9. BC30 says:

            He’ll never see himself as the cause or take any “blame” for any change in you* because he is a narcissist. That’t true. I was curious as to whether he has noticed it, only you would be able to tell if his assertions have deviated from their normal execution.

            *I blame HG. 😙

          10. Leigh says:

            The cliff fightback was pretty big this time. The narcissism is probably telling him to kiss my ass right now. I know it won’t last. It never does..

            My daily proclamation: Do not rely on the narcissist, rely on myself. Escape! I’m getting there.

          11. Leigh says:

            AV, they aren’t always so bold during the pick up phase. Workplace narc sat on the sidelines and watched his prey (me). There was friendship and innuendo but nothing concrete. Until I made the first move. Then he was on me like white on rice.

            As for me being afraid to leave my husband because I might run back to workplace narc, yes, sometimes it does scare me. Other times I see him for what he is and I don’t want to dabble in that again. But is a slight concern.

          12. A Victor says:

            Leigh, My story regarding boldness. lol, it is sad. About 9 years ago I took a class, twice a week for four months. After the initial night, every time I went, for the next 2-3 weeks, I’d be putting my stuff into my spot and be getting ready to start and I’d hear this deep sexy voice talking and finally realize it was directed at me. I’d look up and there was this much younger, stinking hot man striking up a conversation with me, again and again. And again! Throughout the class and again at the next one. I’d go home and tell my kids, “I don’t know why this guy keeps talking to me, it’s weird.”. After a while I began to look forward to seeing him and before I knew it we were riding to class together. One time one of the other young guys asked him why he was talking to the old…and my new friend kicked his chair so hard he almost fell over. It was funny. But I had been wondering the same thing. Anyway, at one point toward the end of the 4 months, when I was completely head over heels for this guy, I heard him using the same exact lines he’d used on me on another, much younger, engaged woman in our class! That was an eye-opener. Then a mutual friend said he’d gotten back with his girlfriend, whom he’d told me was well done with. When I asked him about this and found out it was true, I told him to never contact me again, thankfully the class had just ended. I was absolutely devastated, the only saving grace was that nothing physical had happened. I don’t know what his game was, he spent a lot of time with me over those months, and now I believe that he was yet another narcissist. This is evidence to me that they may not care about age, if the prime aims that they want can be met. It also tells me how much they can spot the empathic traits without even a conversation. So you see, with me, if they aren’t bold, nothing will happen. I don’t pay attention and I would never make the first move. It’s a wonder I’ve been married twice. But, including the above person, the summer narc and my two ex’s, I’ve not had other relationships, only some dates and some random sexual encounters as a young woman. My affair was purely physical, we didn’t even talk much. I have wanted to share that story, it left me really shaken for a very long time afterward. And coming here I have learned why.

          13. Leigh says:

            I want to change my answer a little bit, lol. Workplace narc is extremely bold. He’s larger than life. He’s grandiose and people are naturally attracted to him. He’s smart, funny, interesting and extremely articulate. With all of that said, he still couldn’t make a move on me. We had known each other for 5 years before the affair started. After knowing him for about 2 and half years, there was a Harpoon of Seduction moment. That’s when my antennae went up. I said to myself, “Oh, that’s interesting, I guess he’s interested.” Then for about 2 and half years there was friendship and innuendo and finally, I made the move. The Harpoon of Seduction was, “I can’t escape you.” I fell for it hook, line & sinker. Bastard. Imagine my surprise when I came here and realized the Harpoon of Seduction is part of their Devil’s Toolkit.

          14. A Victor says:

            Now I understand. The person in the above story that I told also made it clear that he was interested but absolutely would not cross the physical line. Had I, he would’ve responded, we’d had enough…conversation…that I knew this. But, I did not, so we did not. It was somewhat self-protective, there was no commitment and I was done with shallow things many years before. In any event, now I see what you mean, they want us to be responsible for opening the door to them. Wow. What a bunch of jerks. That’s not being an adult man. And we fall for that! Thank you, this type of thinking is helpful to me. If he can’t man-up, he doesn’t deserve me and my heart can stay put until/unless he does. I do have that much control of my heart. I think…….

          15. Leigh says:

            AV, I thought he was just shy around woman because he was a burn survivor and scarred. I wanted him to feel good about himself. I wanted him to feel attractive. They really are pathetic!

          16. A Victor says:

            That’s what they want us to think, it’s all part of their devious plan, or non-plan in the case of lessers and mid-rangers.

          17. A Victor says:

            Leigh, another piece that has now fallen into place. This guy had been trying to put me on the shelf for a week or two prior to me finding out about the gf being back. I’d been confused by it but no I understand. Wowsa. When your time-line registered, it hit me. Pulling back pleasantly. I don’t believe I would do well as a shelf appliance, I expect more. It may be why I’ve done the bulk of escaping and not been disengaged from as much. Who knows.

          18. Leigh says:

            There’s a piece of me that LOVES the shelf and/or silent treatments. It means I have peace, even if it’s only for a short time. I know what you mean though. I need to feel important to my significant other. I want them to want to spend time with me. I don’t want to force them. My husband doesn’t give substantial silent treatments. He will disappear to his bolthole but never for long, an hour or two. Workplace narc put me on the shelf and gave me silent treatments ALL THE TIME. I eventually got tired of it. Our affair lasted 18 months. The last shelving was for 3 months. By the time he came back, I had found Mr. Tudor and was done with workplace narc.

          19. A Victor says:

            I got so I enjoyed it when my ex was gone too. And, I enjoyed when I got to go somewhere. I went to CA once and just dreaded coming home. When I heard that Harry might return to the US with a heavy heart, on one of the videos yesterday, I really related to that. I’m really glad you found Mr. Tudor.

          20. Leigh says:

            Me too, AV. Me too.

          21. Asp Emp says:

            AV, this comment of yours was very interesting reading….. food for thought for others to consider what and how ‘red flags’ can appear to be so ‘innocent’….. thank you for sharing it, AV.

          22. A Victor says:

            You’re welcome Asp Emp. I had been hesitant because it is long.

          23. Asp Emp says:

            AV, it is still an experience, so it is relevant. Thank you 🙂

          24. BC30 says:

            Leigh — Jump into the mutherfucking Emotional Sea!!! As JB said, there will be a tipping point. We have rafts and some days what feels like tiny gotdam water wings barely keeping us afloat, but you can cross it. Just gotta jump.

            Meanwhile, this whole conversation along with what AV was saying in the The Golden Period chain made me think of Pulp Fiction. It’s all so bassackwards and whose perspective is right? Either way, save yourself. 💜✨

            “Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness, for he is truly his brother’s keeper and the finder of lost children and I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers and you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you!”

            “Now… I been sayin’ that shit for years and if you ever heard it, that meant your ass. You’d be dead right now. I never gave much thought to what it meant, I just thought it was a cold-blooded thing to say to a motherfucker before I popped a cap in his ass, but I saw some shit this mornin’ made me think twice. “

            “See, now I’m thinking: maybe it means you’re the evil man and I’m the righteous man and Mr. 9 mm here, he’s the shepherd protecting my righteous ass in the valley of darkness. “

            “Or it could mean you’re the righteous man and I’m the shepherd and it’s the world that’s evil and selfish and I’d like that, but that shit ain’t the truth. The truth is you’re the weak and I’m the tyranny of evil men. But I’m tryin’, Ringo. I’m tryin’ real hard to be the shepherd.”

          25. Leigh says:

            BC30. I don’t know why but I fear change and I’m very indecisive. I have to be forced to make a change. I hate that there’s this whole side of me that’s so weak.

            Am I the evil, the shepherd or the weak? Maybe a little bit of all 3.

        4. leelasfuelstinks says:

          Mr. Wanker 😉 gets most of his fuel by intellectual activities. He loves sports though and wants to excel in sports. He takes some degree of self-care, is body conscious, but dresses like a slob. The worst dressed man I ever saw. When it comes to sex, he´s totally in love with himself and as we know, he prefers having sex with himself by far 😉 When I think back without a pissed off ego, I have to admit that he really had problems with intimacy or friendly body contact. He seemed to be afraid and grossed out. Or whatever. In my estimation he was really ace (asexual) and just couldn´t.

          1. alexissmith2016 says:

            Thats really interesting Leela, thanks for sharing. It’s so odd how they can avoid intimacy especially when they need this to gain fuel.

          2. leelasfuelstinks says:

            You´re welcome, Alexis. When devaluation started, my ex narc, Upper Lesser A somatic, rendered himself unattraktive in order to avoid intimacy with me (I was IPPS). That was really disgusting!

          3. alexissmith2016 says:

            Wow that’s extreme for a somatic. Yukkkkk ewwww hshshs Jees leela

          4. A Victor says:

            My ex used the avoidance of intimacy/sex to gain fuel, he knew how much it bothered me.

          5. alexissmith2016 says:

            Awwwww AV that’s really sad. I guess things like that are why I’ve never been an IPPS well not for very long anyway, my defence mechanisms would kick in strong, they would only have to reject me once and I’d never have had sex with them again.
            Halfway through listening to part 2 of 10 empaths, I’m sure you’ll find someone hot and caring to be with. Who always wants to have sex with you x

          6. A Victor says:

            “I’m sure you’ll find someone hot and caring to be with. Who always wants to have sex with you” << life goal. 🙂

            The 10 Empaths series is phenomenal. Loved it!

        5. leelasfuelstinks says:

          ALEXIS!!! You reminded me of a former co-worker! Almost exactly like this, I don´t know if she sends private pics to other men 😀 but exactly this OCD, this hygiene obsession. Always dressed in clothes from expensive labels, crazy about her appearance, she refreshed her make up every hour, love bombed the boss, smeared other employees to the boss, triangulated, cheated, lied. I already briefly told about her in another thread. She uses Esotericism for her facade, oh so cares about nature and the environment, she´s oh so better because she buys that super expensive organic food, flaunts her status, shows off her expensive clothes.

          On the other hand she also brags about her university degree, couldn´t stand it when someone had a better idea or someone did good work. She always tried to claim the achievement for herself, even if it was just “her idea” to do that good work. And she was also utterly disgusted of body fluids and the human body. Too bad we had to professionally talk about body fluids, blood, pee, poo, sperm and even genitals (medicine 😉 ). She was so disgusted, she often lashed out and left the room. 😀

          Very probably a more somatic leaning elite like your lovely co-worker 😀 😉

          1. alexissmith2016 says:

            Interesting Leela.

            I don’t interact with him often enough to hear many smears and the only time I’ve heard him smear is regarding other males in a similar level of seniority to himself. I sense triangulation would be a huge component in his toolbox should someone be devalued by him. He certainly likes to let you subtly know that there are many women attracted to him, although he plays this down hugely – it is incredibly subtle, yet apparent when you know the signs.

            Yes to the designer clothes. Always exceptionally well presented. And I do rather like him, hence the need to stay the fuck away anyhow ahahah

          2. leelasfuelstinks says:

            The elite cadre seems to be extremely diverse! There seem to be sexual- as well as asexual elite narcs. And you just stay away from that narc. You don´t like HIM you like the image that he reflects to you. And we all know now: It´s not real, it´s totally fake. So just stay the fuck away! 😉

          3. alexissmith2016 says:

            Don’t worry Leela, I have excellent self control when I want to, even after a few drinks too. You’re right tho none of it is real, forever on the fake

          4. HG Tudor says:

            Some of your comments following libation tend to suggest otherwise you lush!

          5. alexissmith2016 says:

            Hahah are you projecting again HG?

          6. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Just be careful! Very careful. I know you´re one of my kind, just a different cadre. 😉

          7. alexissmith2016 says:

            Hahah what does that mean Leela? Half narcy/naughty?

          8. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Yes. We are of the same school but different cadres. You we should GOSO when we notice that someone is a narc. That wonderful self-defense you have switched on right now, doesn´t give you a 100 % protection. Our self-defense can misfire and mislead us sometimes. 🙂

          9. alexissmith2016 says:

            Ah no it doesn’t 100% protect me. I get more troubled by plutonic females than males tho. It’s only a handful of them, the odd one here, the odd one there (although in my head it feels like 1000s of them hahah) and whilst I may do the right thing in the moment either by pretending something doesn’t bother me or just getting on with my own thing, Inside I feel the toxicity which makes me want to stay and have a bitch off but I recognise that’s not always helpful.

          10. A Victor says:

            Leela, your co-worker sounds like my ex with her disgust of the body, bodily fluids etc. That was him, the Madonna/whore thing going on too. It was the strangest thing ever. Thankfully now I have been able to realize it was him and not me. But it made for a horrible marriage.

          11. leelasfuelstinks says:

            A marriage with ANY narc is horrible! Was your ex cerebral? Or elite?

          12. A Victor says:

            Somatic. Yes, I got a Somatic who was lousy in bed.

          13. leelasfuelstinks says:

            I had even two somatics who were both lousy in bed. One was terrible and the second one somehow decent. He was very good at certain things but couldn´t keep up his erection, couldn´t finish, only like every 3rd or 4th time and whenever he managed it to finish it was already after 2 or 3 minutes 😀 So either did not finish or too quickly. 😀 The first narc was the worst I ever had in bed! By far!

          14. Asp Emp says:

            Hi LFS, when I read this comment, I wondered (and can imagine) future conversations in pubs around narcissists and sex….. it was good to read what you said though, it reminded me that I was never the ‘issue’…..

          15. leelasfuelstinks says:

            “He was so BAD in bed, he didn´t even …..” “Oh my goodness, he was totally incapable of ….” “He couldn´t finish” “The worst I had in bed”, … 😀 😀 Like this. 😀

          16. Asp Emp says:

            Laughing……… yeah, that would make for interesting conversation around the barbeque….. I’ve seen adverts on the TV in relation to ‘solutions’ for problems in that area – by numan (laughing) – they should state at the end of the advert, if it is a narcissist, they will need Viagra and a fridge !!

          17. A Victor says:

            Mine was just boring, boring, boring. For all of his supposed experience prior to me, he didn’t learn a thing. I read some other comments somewhere here today that with our ET high during the Golden Period, we may overlook less than exciting experiences. That was me. And, I thought, well, I can teach him what he needs to know. But alas, he already had his “routine” in place and I could not budge it, but by the time I found this out, I was already ensnared. Early on he’d kept things “exciting” by varying up places. But that damn routine never altered. And when he took it elsewhere, at that point, it hurt, but in a way I didn’t care. I feel very cheated by the whole thing. The best years of my life went to him, time that is gone and I can’t get back. Many here feel that way I would suppose. And, in a way, it was my own fault, I could’ve divorced him sooner. But, we know how that goes.

          18. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Don´t beat yourself up. Even though it´s hard. You cannot turn back time. And it was for sure not your fault! You were manipulated, you are an ACON, you crave for love, attention and care, like me! We can get easily ensnared and manipulated. Let´s take it as learning. You can have the best years of your life at any age 😉 I´m not 25 anymore either 😉

          19. A Victor says:

            Thank you Leela, it isn’t really about not being 25 anymore, it is about having lost those years in such a way. I know women my age who’ve been widowed who have fond memories and don’t feel they lost their years with that person. I do because none of it was real and I just kept trying. But, I do have 4 amazing kids from those years, so not all is lost. I need to focus on that part of my past and forget the rest, not rue the rest. I am not one for looking back often, believe it or not, usually more of an in the now or forward focused person really. But, this process is in part about settling the past I think, so it must be done. I really appreciate your statement that we can have the best years of our life at any age, I do agree with that.

          20. leelasfuelstinks says:

            There! You have wonderful children who are non-narcs, maybe also Empaths?

          21. A Victor says:

            I think so.

          22. Asp Emp says:

            Laughing….. AV, when I read this comment, it just made me laugh……

          23. A Victor says:

            Haha, I laughed when I wrote it!

      2. A Victor says:

        You were lucky. Thanks for understanding.

        1. leelasfuelstinks says:

          Yes, I was lucky! I got away. But I don´t know what I would have done if he was more somatic. Would I have been capable to resist? Probably. But not 100 %. On one hand I was terrified that he is sexually interested in me! On the other hand I was pissed off that he would have rejected me. 😀 😀 I wanted to stay faithful but my ego was pissed. I was curious, maybe one time trying out? On the other hand I didn´t want to commit adultery. There was at least a chance that I could have become a Dirty Empath. Very glad that the (right!) decision was made for me.

          That´s why I fully understand people, to whom this happens. I can happen. To everybody. Because we are only human. We are not made of stone. We have feelings. Everybody makes bad decisions in their lives. No matter what it is. That´s life. That´s being human. 🙂

      3. BC30 says:

        Leela! Did you see my mom’s ED is like you?! Meanwhile, none of us are angels, and my days of being a DE are in the past (but for many reasons besides the Ns). Thankfully, I when I did my NDs I discovered that I was saved the embarrassment of ensnarement by two MMRs! 😂😆😂

        1. leelasfuelstinks says:

          Whose ED was like mine? Exactly the same? Or just the same school? Lucky you, MMRs are a pain in the ass 😀 It´s good that you´re not a Dirty Empath anymore. And I´m also glad that I got away that luckily. 🙂 The probability to become a DE was low but not zero!

          1. BC30 says:

            My mom is over half Super, with high Savior and Carrier. I thought of you right away. One thing about her is that everyone loves her, like she can talk to anyone and would take in “stray” humans when I was younger always doing the most and she has many, many friends. The kind of person everyone in town knows and loves. But you can’t take advantage of her. No way. She always has a keen eye and is a great judge of character with a very strong personality. Somehow, she’s sassy, yet endearing. Like Dolly Parton!

          2. leelasfuelstinks says:

            I´m a bit different. I´m very high in Carrier and low in Savior. I polarize people. Either you really like me or you despise me. Nothing in between. I´m always ready to help. Just yesterday, when I had to buy some things, the man who payed before me forgot some of his stuff. So I grabbed that stuff, ran after the man and brought him his foods “Excuse me Sir, but you forgot this”. In that moment I immediately thought: Okay, it´s very clear what I am 😀 😀 Besides, people don´t feel really drawn to me. They think more of a conceited, vain and arrogant woman than of an Empath 😀 😀 Oh vanity! 😀

          3. BC30 says:

            😂 Her Savior is higher than Carrier and there is some Magnet. We love you ! 😆😘❤️ vain and arrogant? Hahaha ✨💕

          4. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Magnet what? 😉 Oh, Magnet traits! Aw yes, those 0 %. 😀 😀 😉

          5. A Victor says:

            Who thinks of you as “conceited, vain and arrogant”?! Not true, I’ll punch them for you! Like BC30 said, we love you!

          6. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Thank you, I love you all too! Who says that? Envious, jealous women, people who cannot deal with individuals who are not mainstream, people who put others into “drawers”, who have prejudices, people who cannot deal with other lifestyles, other opinions than their own, people who cannot think, people who cannot imagine that somebody can be empathic, loving, caring AND well groomed, etc. People, I consider as dumb dumbs 😉

          7. A Victor says:

            Ah, I see, it’s the dumb dumbs. They are dumb, you are wise to discount them.

          8. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Those who judge me, do not deserve me! 😉

            #Supernova #Selfdefense #Defiantempath #Pride

          9. Leigh says:

            Leela, people aren’t drawn to me either and that’s including narcs. I come off as a cold hearted bitch. I’m ok with that, lol.

          10. leelasfuelstinks says:

            YOU? A cold hearted bitch? NEVER! I used to come off as arrogant slut for certain people. Who cares? Those dumbs dumbs can kiss our asses.


          11. Leigh says:

            I tend to keep my wall up. I don’t let people in so it comes off as cold. Its ok. Who cares is right!

          12. A Victor says:

            I can’t believe it either. Leigh, it really is hard to believe, you’re so warm and sweet here.

          13. Leigh says:

            Thank you AV. That’s because I feel safe here so I can take down my wall.

          14. A Victor says:

            Yes, blogs can be very safe, they offer the cover of anonymity as well as time to think through one’s thoughts prior to “saying” them. I love blogging in certain spheres.

            One thing I’ve been hoping from being here is that if I can get my mind and my narc addiction under control, which I think has been happening and which is giving me hope for this, that eventually I will have the time and energy to allow other people in a bit more. If I have the time and energy, which has previously been spent on surviving, maybe I’ll have more of a desire to reach out a bit more. Maybe. I have been so limited in personal resources that most people were just more of a drain than it was worth. My nature is more introverted and task-oriented as well, which doesn’t lend toward it being a huge goal for me. One good thing about all this though is that I became excellent at saying no, except to my ex, of course 🙁

            I’m glad you feel safe here Leigh!

          15. A Victor says:

            Leigh, people love me. It makes me crazy, I am not a people person. The only ones who don’t seem to are nice, normal or empathic men. Ugh.

          16. Leigh says:

            I can see that. I was immediately drawn to you. You’re very soothing.

        2. Jasmin says:

          Can we cure the black strike of infidelity or is it always there but just kept under control?
          I was a DEMB but it was over 15 years ago now..

          1. Leigh says:

            This is a very interesting question. I think it’s based on our narcissistic traits. Pride and infidelity are high in me. For 20 years I was faithful but that was because of my children, not my husband. I didn’t want to hurt them.

          2. A Victor says:

            Mine was 35 years ago but I feel like, in the right circumstances, it could possibly happen again. But, I like to think that now I would take preventative steps before it would happen and also, I don’t drink anymore, which did play a part in it last time.

          3. Jasmin says:

            I don’t know why there is no reply under your awnsers Leigh and A Victor?
            I think you’re both right! If your narcissistic trait of infidelity is high it is high always but we find methods to prevent it from happen.
            I didn’t trust myself around attractive men! I started to consciously ask my self whatever I found the person to be attractive or not. If I thought “even if he was the only man in the word I wouldn’t want him” I relaxed. Those whom I found attractive I avoided. I also decided to not have any male friends.Excessive? Maybe! But I didn’t want take any risk.
            The combination of pride and infidelity seems to be quite common! I’m the same..
            A bit strange as infidelity is not something being proud of.🤷‍♀️

          4. Leigh says:

            Jasmin, I know what you mean. It isn’t something to be proud of. Unfortunately for me, its a defense mechanism. Its a way to get back at my narc husband without him even knowing it.

          5. A Victor says:

            I have never had guy friends, not as my own anyway, only as offshoots of a boyfriend or husband. When I was married to my second husband I never thought anyone was as attractive as he. But, I did go on a trip at one point and met a cute little man I would’ve had a little fling with possibly, if the trip had been different. It was at an excessively dark time in that marriage. I wasn’t really attracted to the person per se, he just seemed sweet and different, he was from Lithuania and had a cute accent, haha. Then there was the hot fed ex guy who brought our paycheck every other week for years. He was married but clearly open to ideas (probably a narc). He was the only guy I ever noticed, as far as looks go, when I was with my ex. I always avoided eye contact with him because I knew that would’ve been dangerous. I finally had to let my kids collect the check, just in case, haha, and then one day, he said he had a new route and wouldn’t be our delivery guy anymore, I was happy and sad at the same time. Temptation happens. Pride is my strongest narc trait, I think it’s a matter of my pride being injured that causes me to think infidelity is okay, which I don’t actually think from a moral standpoint. It is interesting that pride seems to be a common thread for some of us who have made this choice.

          6. Jasmin says:

            I saw afterwards it getted in the right place anyway.😊

          7. Leigh says:

            AV, fun fact, I don’t drink anymore either. Here’s another fun fact. The whole time with workplace narc I made it a point not to drink. Here’s the kicker, I wanted to experience him sober. Bastard!

          8. A Victor says:

            Huh, we do have a lot of similarities it seems! I’m sorry you experienced him sober, bummer.

          9. Asp Emp says:

            AV “I’m sorry you experienced him sober, bummer” – made me laugh (first one of the day)……. you do have a way with words too, AV.

          10. Jasmin says:

            Leigh- I take pride in being faithful and shame in engaging in infidelity. I also had these feelings of wanting to get back at him. Then I realised that that’s not what I want (just caused by him) and that in the end, if I would have done so, it would only damage myself.
            Mine DEMB experience was of a “getting seduced, getting lost” nature. I was selfish and jealous. I didn’t recognise myself and abhorred these feelings, jet they were so present.

            A Victor- yes there are temptation and as you say in the right circumstances it could happen again. Therefore, there must be no right circumstances!!😂😂
            My gard is generally high, but I rember one time at the health center I met a man with who an instantaneous attraction arised and our short meeting became very flirty. I took notice first when I walked from there. As I now know that I’m attracted to him I control myself around him and treat him in a kind but jet serious manner.

            Age of 9 is a age where the intellect reach another level of understanding due to brain development.
            You have children with a narc, right? Do you remeber any change in how he treated the children around age of 9?

          11. Leigh says:

            Jasmin, I don’t think I explained myself correctly. I fell for workplace narc. I didn’t do it to hurt my husband. With that said, knowing it would hurt my husband, didn’t stop me either. I’ve been abused my husband for 35 years and any empathy I had for him is almost gone.

          12. A Victor says:

            It is interesting that you say that about age 9. That is how old I was when my mother began physically abusing us more, an enormous and sudden uptick, I am the oldest.

            My ex got less imvolved.with each child the older they got, he pretty much ignored them all by probably age 5 or 6.

          13. Leigh says:

            AV, I was a raging drunk in my twenties. Now I know why I drank so heavily. I needed to escape. Once I got pregnant, I stopped. Then baby #2 came quickly after. After they were born and a little older, there were definitely times that I overindulged. It wasn’t an every day or even every week habit but when I did drink, it always seemed to be that I just drank a little too much. I don’t know what happened but one day I decided I wanted to experience life sober. So much of my life is a blur and I didn’t want that anymore. Its not that I never drink anymore because on occasion, I do. Its just very limited, maybe 5 times a year, if that much.

            I don’t mind experiencing workplace narc while being sober. It was wonderful. I got high off of him. He’s still a bastard though!

          14. A Victor says:

            I had similar drinking and the reasons for it. I quit because I didn’t want my daughter to grow up like that.

            I am glad you enjoyed your experience, I so understand that. The Summer Narc had my hormones off the charts, I loved it! And I only knew him online and the phone! But you’re right, they’re still bastards! That’s the piece I need to remember.

          15. Leigh says:

            I’d like to say it was for my children, but it really was more for me. I was tired of people using my drinking as an excuse to gaslight me. At the time I didn’t realize they were gaslighting me but something always felt off. They would try to blame my drinking and tell me I wasn’t remembering correctly when really they were distorting the facts. Plus, I wanted clarity and you can’t have clarity while you’re drunk or hungover.

          16. A Victor says:

            I couldn’t have quit for me, no incentive. You were very strong to quit for yourself. You were also aware of things in a way that I wasn’t, also impressive. I was going for lack of clarity. I shudder to think what would’ve happened to me had my daughter not been born. I am glad we both made it regardless of our reason, we and our children are better for it.

          17. Leigh says:

            AV, we really are alike. The first time I stopped drinking was because I got pregnant with my daughter. I say all the time that she saved my life. I was on a path to destruction. Then once they were older, I started drinking heavily again. It wasn’t every day or even every weekend but whenever I did indulge, I would overindulge. Its only been about 3 or so years where I made the decision to curb my drinking.

            I’m on this journey of learning and I don’t want anything to deter it. Plus, its my pride. I want NOONE to have a way to invalidate me, ever again.

          18. A Victor says:

            Leigh, I have said that about my daughter also. I couldn’t start again, my ex was using, though I didn’t know it for several years, and one of us had to be responsible. I was the most tempted with the guy from the class. But, having the kids and being on my own, I refrained. Sometimes I think about it but it would likely cause me trouble, so I don’t. You are very wise to focus on this journey and not be hazy through it, more effective that way possibly? That’s not prideful, no one should ever invalidate you, drinking or not! No one should invalidate anyone, ever. That’s just right.

          19. Jasmin says:

            Leigh – if I understood you correctly it was a combination of different factors?!

          20. Leigh says:

            Hi Jasmin, I just wanted you to understand that I didn’t set out to have an affair. It just happened. Since my empathy for my husband is so low, I didn’t try to stop it from happening either. So to answer your question about the black streak and can we get rid of it, I think we can. Its all about our empathy for the other person. I didn’t even entertain cheating on my husband while I was raising my children because I had empathy for my children. I didn’t want to hurt them. They deserved a mother that was fully there for them and how could I be fully there if I was having an affair. My mind would be on the affair and that wouldn’t have been fair to my children, so I didn’t do it.

          21. Jasmin says:

            A Victor- I started to see many of my fathers behaviour as wrong when I was around 9 y/o and did even start to protest towards them for example when he slandered my mom. “I understand that you don’t like mom but you must understand that I do. I don’t want you to talk badly about her.”
            However, I think he said and behaved the same way before only that my understanding was not sufficiently developed to capture what was going on and that it was wrong.

            Hg- it seems to me that narcs have no or little idea about brain development and treat children as small aduls. Is that correct and if yes – why is that?

          22. A Victor says:

            Jasmin, you are correct, many behaviors/manipulations were there prior to my age of 9 but at that point, in our home, there were specific circumstances that caused a large increase in the frequency and the extent of the physical part of the abuse. I believe that a piece playing into those circumstances was what you are referring to, I have seen things about this elsewhere and wondered but your comment brings it into better alignment. I, sadly, did not see the behaviors as wrong, in a conscious way, until I was around 30. My mother had us very well deluded that what she had done was right and necessary. When it was brought into my attention, what had actually transpired and how people viewed it, it was a pivotal moment in my life. It is interesting because I had acted on the unconscious knowledge years before, telling my mother to never discipline my daughter and reinforcing it with the threat that if she did, she would never see her again, an extremely rare assertion from me to her, only triggered by the desire to protect my child. So, I did know something, but didn’t take it as far as calling it abuse. When it was exposed as such, it was a real light bulb moment which began a journey toward healing which has been rocketed forward since arriving here. I have learned and been able to make sense of more about what has been the story of my life in the last 6 months than in all the years prior put together. Thank you for this addition to my puzzle, I will wait for HG’s reply to your question, if he provides one, and also look more into why the changes occurred at that point. It is quite fascinating.

          23. Jasmin says:

            Liegh, I understand you. Thank you for sharing your experience and thoughts.

          24. Jasmin says:

            A Victor – My mum is an empaht so I had an healthy example to compare with. I didn’t really see it as an abuse either but I felt a strong dislike and recognised it was wrong. I had no idea about narsissism until 1,5 year ago.
            As both your parents are narcissists you didn’t have any other reference, I guess! It’s not strange that you weren’t able to see anything wrong!

    2. Alexissmith2016 says:

      Same AV, I totally get why people judge. It’s not something you can easily understand until you have experienced it yourself. I would never have imagined I could have been ensnared like that.

      1. leelasfuelstinks says:

        For many people it´s far easier to judge than to think. 😉

        1. A Victor says:

          Leela, I agree.

        2. Alexissmith2016 says:

          It’s true Leela! Very easy to judge, I do it all the time hahaha especially if they’re bitches

          1. A Victor says:

            I have to think it through every single time.

      2. A Victor says:

        Yes, I get it too, even now I have to remind myself that I did this, it was in another lifetime for me and I never think about it. It’s almost surreal.

        1. Alexissmith2016 says:

          It is surreal when it’s so long ago. Mine too. Best way really x

    3. Leigh says:

      I was a dirty empath too. Thart’s what brought me here. I was in another silent treatment with workplace narc. I was so lonely and he lit a fire in my belly. But I still think that it was selfish and him being a narcissist was my karma for doing it in the first place.

      I’m also curious, did you ladies tell your significant others? I know some people want to alleviate the guilt they feel so they tell there significant other. I saw no need for that. I thought it would do more harm than good. We both have families and I didn’t want to hurt them to alleviate my guilt. If you did confess, how did it work out for you?

      1. A Victor says:

        Hi Leigh,
        I’m not sure if my experience qualifies as a dirty empath but I’m am empath and it was infidelity. Mine happened a month or so after I left my first husband, not sure if he is a narcissist but probably so. I just wanted that relationship over, I had no feelings let for him. The affair wasn’t intentional initially, we were both drinking etc. It went on for 6 months and though I did not tell him, my ex did find out, but I didn’t care. If he’s not a narc, I hurt him badly. In my second marriage I no longer was drinking and as a result of that first infidelity, I never considered another. For far too long I was too faithful to that husband, he is a narc. But learning about the dirty empath, given my childhood and the first marriage experiences which were pretty bad, I do think that my empathy was at a very low point. It’s actually probably at it’s highest point now, due to learning the information here, that it may ever have been.

        I think it was very kind of you not to tell.

        1. Leigh says:

          I just saw this comment. I don’t know why I see some and not the other. WordPress is weird sometimes. I think that’s what’s happening to me. My empathy for my husband is at a very low point. That’s what bothers me the most.

          1. Melmel says:

            I’m new at this and really only understanding that there is a grieving process after Escape that needs to occur to really be GOSO. The grieving is when you will look back and begin to find empathy for your abuser and also for yourself in this moment not having empathy for him. The empathy for yourself will make you feel whole again, and empathy for him will help you really let go so you stop Emotional Thinking about the relationship.
            I read your thread down below as well and I think that it’s all very insightful.
            Don’t wait for the narcissist. Rescue yourself. You have within you what you need to do this AND then to heal after. You are enough.

          2. Leigh says:

            Thank you Melmel. I believe we have to go through the grieving process as well. We have to grieve the loss of what we thought we had.

            Welcome to the blog!

          3. A Victor says:

            Leigh, WordPress does seem to have some issues, it can be frustrating. Why does your empathy toward him being low bother you?

          4. Leigh says:

            My empathy being low bothers me because I think terrible things. When something bad happens to him, there’s a piece of me that feels good about it. For a split second I feel joy from his internal suffering. I don’t like this ugly person I’ve become.

          5. A Victor says:

            Oh, yes, I totally get that! It’s what kept me ensnared, in part, for so long. I felt extreme guilt for who I’d become and it clouded my judgment to reality, who he was and what was actually happening. He used it of course too, where he knew about it. But I am not actually that person, as you are not, I was in a situation where my ET was off the charts, for decades, and my emotional empathy was eroded to almost nothing. I can see it now, in hindsight, because my true self came back extraordinarily quickly once he was gone. Also, I did not respond to others in the same fashion, that empathy was intact throughout, as it has been more recently with regard to my mother and other non-narc people, it only comes out at her. I believe it is a part of my self protection. I am not the one to ever tell someone else how to proceed when it involves their marriage, but from personal experience, if you decide to leave, or he does, I think you would see yourself as you prefer to be, as you know yourself to truly be, very quickly.

          6. Leigh says:

            I know the key is to get away from my husband. It’s the only way for true peace and clarity and get myself back. I just can’t leave my children to deal with the aftermath. When I leave, it won’t be good. I have to be able to protect them. I don’t want them to suffer they consequences of my bad mistakes. They either have to come with me or get there own place but I can’t leave them here. Otherwise, I’m just like the narc and only thinking about myself. I can’t do it. Maybe it’s my ET conning me but I don’t care. I have to protect them. My children are adults but they still live with me.

      2. Alexissmith2016 says:

        It’s a very personal thing Leigh and what is right for one person is not for another. I felt horrendous, unable to live with the guilt. I spoke with two good friends, one said to me why would you try and offload your guilt onto your husband whom is innocent in this. The other said you need to tell him and give your husband the choice of whether he wants to stay with you or not.

        I went with the latter and I have to say it’s worked out very well for me.

      3. JB says:

        Leigh, I don’t think it was karma for doing it in the first place. I believe maybe you are attracted to a certain type of person and it is, in effect, a cycle repeating itself. The upside is, like in my case, that it led you here, and you are able to learn not only about the behaviour of the narcissist, but what drives your own behaviour. That enables you to break the cycle. Then, one day when you are free, you will be drawn to someone who isn’t narcissistic. So in effect it is a type of karma, but not in the punishment sense. You were meant to do this in order to break the cycle x

        1. Leigh says:

          JB, you hit the nail on the head. It is a cycle I keep repeating and I definitely needed to be led here to see the cycle and break it. I say its punishment because I fell for workplace narc and he broke me and I don’t break easily. But again, I probably needed to be broken so that I could be led here.

          1. JB says:

            Leigh, I understand all too well how you might view it as punishment. But as you said, without being broken you wouldn’t have been led here. What you wrote above, about telling your husband, given that he is a narcissist, I wouldn’t bother! Don’t give him any extra sticks to beat you with! I just wonder if there is any way you can somehow trigger the process of discard, so you can avoid the difficult decision of leaving him by having him make the decision?

          2. Leigh says:

            JB, I wish I could trigger the discard, too! We’ve been together for 35 years. He’s a victim narcissist and I fill every one of the prime aims. I’m trying not to have any emotional reactions so he will need to seek fuel elsewhere. I think there’s a prospect on the horizon, too. I’m keeping my fingers and toes crossed.

          3. HG Tudor says:

            Do not rely on the narcissist, rely on yourself. Escape.

          4. Leigh says:

            This is going to be my proclamation on a daily basis. Do not rely on the narcissist, rely on myself. Escape. Thank you Mr. Tudor.

          5. JB says:

            Leigh, I will keep everything crossed for you as well!

            HG is right, it’s about relying on yourself, not the narcissist, to take the decision to leave. I am more than a bit indecisive where big decisions are concerned (actually, where any decisions are concerned), and more likely to create a situation where the narcissist would get hacked off and leave me, but I guess although that may well achieve the desired end goal, at the same time that isn’t really learning, and probably leaves you more open to it happening again. No doubt you have to go through the whole process to fully break free from the cycle. I really wish you the courage to take the next step, I know it can’t be at all easy x

          6. Leigh says:

            Hi JB, I’m very indecisive myself. I know it has to be me who leaves. I don’t know if I’m ready for the backlash.

          7. JB says:

            Leigh, I get that. But I guess it’s weighing up which is worse, the short term backlash, or the long term pain from continued interaction with him? It sounds like you are still not ready, but I think one day something will happen, like a ‘eureka moment’, which tips the balance and makes the short term backlash seem like the more preferable option..I hope so anyway, and I hope that day comes soon xx

          8. Leigh says:

            That’s a very good point JB. I see the short term backlash being worse because it will be explosive. The long term pain is only incremental but probably will be much more intrusive. Thank you JB. I have to ask myself, which is worse?

          9. JB says:

            Leigh, not an easy thing to work out, and even if it were, it still doesn’t make taking action any easier. I guess when the time is right, you will know xx

        2. BC30 says:

          Keen observation.

      4. Leigh says:

        Alexis, thank you for sharing. I never even considered your friend’s point of view. That makes perfect sense. We have to give them the choice if they want to stay or not. Its not up to us. In my situation, I won’t do it. Its only because my husband is a narcissist and he wouldn’t let me live it down. Plus, to be honest, I don’t feel guilty. I feel like he deserved it. Thank you again for sharing.

        1. Alexissmith2016 says:

          Thank you Leigh. Goodness I forgot you were married to an N. He doesn’t deserve shit then. I would feel no guilt whatsoever either, In fact I would do it again and again and again hahah

          1. Leigh says:

            Alexis, no, he doesn’t deserve shit. I have no empathy left for him. For years, I’ve dealt with his toxicity and abuse. When he would sit there and tell me how wonderful he was as a husband, I would say to myself, “Then why am I with another man?” Its been over with workplace narc for two years now. That’s when he disengaged with me. I’ve kept to myself since then. That situation wasn’t healthy either. Now, I’m concentrating of when and how I leave my narc husband. I just finished reading Getting Out and its a bit overwhelming. For now, I’m staying but only until I can plan my escape for myself and my adult children. I know they are adults but I don’t want them to suffer the consequences of my escape. Both of them still live with me.

          2. leelasfuelstinks says:

            “I would feel no guilt whatsoever either, In fact I would do it again and again and again hahah”

            Exactly. Almost my words. I would say: If a narc withholds sex from me, it is very natural that I get it somewhere else. No empathy, no guilt, no remorse whatsoever. He could kiss my ass!

          3. Leigh says:

            Leela, reading this comment just made me think of something. I just had another lightbulb moment. My husband didn’t withdraw sex directly. A couple of years ago he had a sibling move in. He put them in the room right next to us and our beds shared a wall. I was uncomfortable having sex because the walls were so thin. I’d only want to do it when his sibling wasn’t home. He would tell his family that I wouldn’t have sex with him. He would blame me when he was the one who made it uncomfortable for me in the first place. They are such passive aggressive mother fuckers! This is why I didn’t feel guilty for what I did. He deserved it.

          4. leelasfuelstinks says:

            He just projected HIS problems to you. That´s all. Projection. Listen carefully when they blame you and project. Because that´s what THEY are 😉

          5. Leigh says:

            Thank you for that reminder. I always forget that they project. I have to pay closer attention.

      5. BC30 says:

        Yes, I told one of my SOs. He wanted to work it out, but he just couldn’t get past it. If I ever did it again (highly doubtful), I wouldn’t tell because I wouldn’t want to hurt them.

        1. Leigh says:

          Once I leave my husband and if (and that’s a really big if) I ever have another relationship, I won’t cheat again either. If I’m cheating, its means something is wrong and it wouldn’t be fair to stay in the relationship. In my next relationship, I want to be able to share everything about me. I don’t want to hide anything. I’m tired of hiding.

          1. A Victor says:

            Leigh, same. I want him to ask and actually care about what makes me me. And also share himself in the same manner.

          2. Eternity says:

            Leigh , you will accomplish all those things you will see! You are a lot stronger than you think. No need to ever ever hide again!

          3. Leigh says:

            Thank you Eternity!

          4. Eternity says:

            Of course anytime!

    4. BC30 says:

      Same, AV, same.

    5. Melmel says:

      AV I hear that.

      This situation did some damage to a very dear friendship of mine once. She was DE and I judged, though I really tried hard not to. She was gracious enough to stay friends with me despite feeling that judgement, though I knew instinctively that we would never be as close after. This series is going to help me make sense of my past I think.

      1. A Victor says:

        Melmel, I had a similar experience during my second marriage. A very good friend cheated on her husband, I understood why but I still had to think it through. She never let on if she felt judged or not, the first thing I did was to tell her of my previous affair so she wouldn’t feel judged. But in my heart I still felt it and I had to come to terms with that, it was quite a process! She is now one of my most ardent supporters of all I am learning here! I really wish you the best with your friend, good friends are hard to come by.

        1. Melmel says:

          Thanks AV.
          We live far apart, but I am learning how to be a better friend to her and many others that have stuck by me through the years. I hope that one day my Emotional Thinking will be so minimal that I can get back to nurturing the positive and important relationships in my life rather than focusing on all the toxic narcs in my life.

  4. JB says:

    HG, you say if the DE wants to stay in their current role, but the narcissist wants them in a different role, the the narcissist will go out and out to make that happen – why doesn’t he or she just disengage and go elsewhere? Does this ever happen instead?

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