Try Walking In My Shoes

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I always wake before you. This allows me to slip into the en suite and lock the door and deal with the horror of confronting another day without you seeing me endure this daily ritual.  Already I can feel the hunger rising as I stare at my reflection. Is this what I have become? The bleary-eyed, stubbled, exhausted creature that gazes unwaveringly back at me. No, I do not recognise that thing. How old it looks. The lips are thin, the hair thinning and clumped. Its shoulders rounded and slumped in resignation. I feel refreshed from a solid night’s sleep yet whatever is looking back at me does not accord with that feeling. The fear crawls across my skin and I rub at myself trying to dislodge that cold grip but it never works. The inner dread rises as I contemplate another day at the grindstone trying to piece together what I am, that long arduous task which never gets easier. In point of fact, the task becomes more difficult with each passing month as my advancing age screams at me about my mortality. How that banshee tortures me as she howls in my ears about my waning powers. I feel the tears welling as every injustice I have ever suffered is heaped on my shoulders by an uncaring and oblivious world. Does it not see my pain or does it just not care?

My mobile phone is clutched in my hand. I rarely let it leave my side and I place it on the counter besides the sink and then grip the counter as I continue to look at my reflection. My knuckles whiten as I fight the urge to scream at how empty I feel, how bereft I am and how this is so damn unfair. I try to wrench my gaze away but I cannot. I am entranced by what I see. I do not recognise this person. Where has that shock of white come from in the hair above the left temple? That is not me. Its skin looks dry as if it has been subjected to the dehydrating suction of some foul shade that visited in the night. The horror continues to escalate and it is only the chime of my ‘phone which breaks this terrible appreciation of the thing in the mirror.

Grateful for this interruption I shift my eyes to the ‘phone and see that a message has arrived from one of my coterie of admirers, Samantha. The pilot light inside of me flares into life and there is the slightest surge as the fuel begins to flow. I should wait until I have showered but the hunger is too great already and it must be addressed. I open the text message and like a starving man being given his first meal after fasting I devour the words of admiration.

“Good morning handsome, I missed you last night, I will call you when you are at work xxx”

The flame increases in size and strength as I close the message and smile .I turn on the shower letting the stream of water heat up as I flick to the texts that Samantha sent last night whilst I sat on the settee preoccupied with my activity of flitting between her texts and a conversation I was engaging in with a new prospect on facebook. I re-read a handful of the texts from Samantha with their declarations of admiration for me and I feel my strength returning. I put the phone down and step into the shower and relish the hot embrace of the jets of water. The fear has shrunk away and the dread sensation has been pushed back down. I liberally apply the shower gel, enjoying the sophisticated scent as I use a different product on my face, scrubbing away the dead cells and then another to cleanse and wash. I turn the taps and the water stops. I reach for a thick towel and pat my face dry feeling rejuvenated. As I stood beneath the purifying water my keen mind raced whilst I formed my machinations for the day. Always plotting and always scheming. The prospective fuel that will be garnered from the new sources that I am pursuing coupled with the dose of triangulation I will involve you in is causing me to feel excited and powerful. I pick up a bath sheet and admire the toned nature of my body as I dry myself and embark on the next stage of my preparation for the day by shaving and brushing my teeth.

A little while later my phone has chimed again and this time it is a colleague wanting to arrange lunch as he wants my advice since I am an expert on a particular topic he has to present on. The flame inside rises higher now and this spurs on my delinquent mind to consider additional ways to garner that oh so precious fuel during the day. The hunt for fuel is unending. The craven hunger that rumbles inside of me cries out for it and it is my sole preoccupation. The beast inside must be fed. Yet, now I am feeling strong. I haven’t applied my after shave and already two admirers have seen fit to worship at my altar and the games have not even yet to be played. But they will. I reach for the fragrance and splash it into my cupped hands and apply it to my neck as I look to the mirror. The handsome me has returned. The piercing blue eyes shine, the tousled, shiny locks of hair await the application of some wax to style them, the unblemished skin and close shave accentuate my chiselled good looks. I flash that winning smile as another surge of power flows through me. God I look good.

I return to the bedroom, ‘phone in hand and find you have now risen and I can hear the sounds of movement in the kitchen downstairs as you prepare breakfast as you always do. You will shortly bring me a mug of fresh coffee but I think I will complain that it is not hot enough and criticise you, just to see if I can provoke a reaction from you. It should not be too hard, I know precisely what to say. I notice the bed has not been made and rather than attend to it and help you, when you pass me my coffee with a ‘Good morning’ and a smile, I will cock my head towards the dishevelled heap and tut. Ah, yes, the master of games knows his stuff. I dress as another text arrives from another friend who wants to organise a golf game and asks for help with his swing, praising my technique. He is after more than assistance with his golf since he wants me to place work with him. He will have to provide me with more fuel yet to even be considered and of course, I will send the work elsewhere since there is someone who will give me something I want in return in a sweeter form and in larger amounts than my golfing chum. Still, the disappointment on his face will no doubt provide me with a hit too.

I can hear you coming up the stairs and I decide I will take a look in the full length mirror since I am fully attired to admire how elegant I look. I dress in a manner which says to anyone who meets me that the first move is mine. I stand and give a contented nod at my statuesque reflection. I look fantastic. I start to smile and then a bolt of anguish shoots through me as the craven creature that first lurked in the bathroom mirror appears. It is only for the briefest of instances but it causes me to exhale. My expensively-dressed self returns and the relief washes over me in an amazing way. The creature has gone again. He does that though. He likes to make fleeting appearances throughout my day to remind me that I must keep finding fuel. My quest for the potent fuel must be at the forefront of my mind at all times. As if on cue, you enter the bedroom, a veritable reservoir of fuel. You greet me as I cock my head to the unmade bed and tut. I feel the rush of power as your smile evaporates and you look crestfallen. The games have begun and my day is off to a great start. I only hope that creature stays away from me.

142 thoughts on “Try Walking In My Shoes

  1. CandaceMarie says:

    Hi HG Someone I know, who I am 99% sure is a narcissist, probably mid range, told me they are fearless. Does that mean they could be a psychopath too?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      No, it probably means it is a bullshit boast from a Mid Ranger.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        Laughing…..

      2. CandaceMarie says:

        Thank you HG. Also, this person was giving out parenting advice to another mom and most of it sounded really good. If this person is a narcissist I have trouble believing this is how they parented their own children. Are they just repeating what they have heard from others and don’t truly believe it themselves?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Entirely possible.

          1. CandaceMarie says:

            Thanks HG. This person comes across as very authoritarian. The few things we have discussed regarding parenting she has made it clear she has to be in control at all times. She won’t ask what the children want to do, she has to tell them. This behavior immediately reminded me of my ex narcissist who was always very authoritative with my daughter, and she was not his child.
            That is just one example. There are more but I have made a boundary that I am no longer going to discuss any issues about my daughter with her. Authoritarian type parenting really rubs me the wrong way and I’m not willing to defend my style of parenting with her.

  2. Eliza says:

    I meant to say but for the Grace of God I could be the wife of a Narcissist who would be making me miserable at this very moment …. but I was lucky, my parents gently helped me think logically about some of his behavior, and then serendipity brought me into contact with my now husband.

    1. NarcAngel says:

      Hi Eliza and welcome.

      Do you feel comfortable giving some examples regarding how your parents were able to introduce logic about his behaviour in a way that allowed you to not become defensive but able to view and accept it?

      1. Eliza says:

        Hi NA,

        Thank you for the Welcome <3

        I would love to share this with you all because I think it was so brilliantly done by my parents
        .
        I was going through a rough spell with him, he was extremely jealous and controlling. I concealed so much of his behavior from my parents but one night after a particularly nasty phone conversation, my Dad stepped in. Boy X was losing his marbles because I would not answer my phone ( bedroom kids line ) I'm in my mid 50's ;p no cell phones then.
        He then started throwing stones at my bedroom window, and my Dad had just about HAD IT.
        Dad went outside and scared the heck out of him (lol) not intentionally, just quietly walked up and said something like
        " hey X, you need to go home, she's not going to come down, it's too late and this is not working for me."

        Dad had retired early, so the next morning he was sitting in the kitchen having coffee with my Mom and said " this is trouble kiddo, he may be a nice kid, but behavior like this is really immature at this age." we were about 19. It was summer during college. Mostly he talked about what kind of person I was and what kind of life I saw for myself. My parents were not aware of the controlling jealous behavior, but they were aware of his persona as bad boy with fast car and money. Nothing else was said at that point, but they got me thinking.

        The next "talk" happened after about a year later and again the following summer and this time bad Boy x was getting bolder and actually rang the doorbell after midnight after I wouldn't answer my phone. We were also engaged but with no wedding date yet.
        Dad told him to go home but was patient.
        Not so patient with me however, lol, I can just see him with a lit cigarette standing in the door of my bedroom.
        He said things like is this the roller coaster you want for the rest of your life ?

        Boy X had cheated on me when we were first dating with a former girlfriend and told me about it while begging my forgiveness and promising NEVER AGAIN. eye roll

        His families wealth came from a chain of restaurants and his hours were typically late, Dad asked me how I felt about a lifetime of temptation my husband would be faced with…. did I want to be home alone with babies while he was at one of the restaurants ? He was really frank with me, he described in detail the scenarios in which I was home alone with sick baby and toddler while he was NOT. Did I want a partner in life who was in the trenches with me ? Was I prepared to trust the rest of my life with someone who had already betrayed me ? He talked about the alcohol flowing all the time around this family and was I going to be ok raising a family in that environment ? ( Not that my family didn't enjoy a cocktail, but nobody drank to excess ) He really just calming said I had a lot to think about, because once I made a life with this person there was no going back to regain my youth and freedom. My mother was equally thoughtful, but let my father lead the discussion. He was a man of few words and I think THAT was part of the impact of his words.

        Of course I didn't immediately break things off however, the seeds were planted. If you want me to tell you how this all played out I will be happy to, after I finish burning dinner lol ;P

        1. Violetta says:

          It’s like Twilight Zone’s “Spur of the Moment” epi, but with a happier ending.

      2. Eliza says:

        OMGosh what a typo, mistake riddled mess my post was ( still being moderated, maybe HG will proof it for me, lol
        Family’s wealth and calmly…. yikes what else did I mangle. Dinner making and message board posting do not mix for this girl.

        One point I forgot to make was that I didn’t get defensive that I remember because I knew we were both being immature and that my Dad had every right to be annoyed with the drama. They did one thing which I think for me was key .. They did not issue any ultimatum about him, they left it up to me and to choose for myself. Saying things like you have a good head on your shoulders you will choose wisely, etc.

        I also knew I wanted them to RESPECT and Love whom ever I chose to marry, and they would have many reservations about boy X.
        🙂

      3. Eliza says:

        NA … I was just talking to my sister about this time in my life and I thought of another factor in my escape ? Can I use that word ? My parents really encouraged me to be Busy. They took me with them out to dinner, we shopped, they would grab me for a quick trip out for an errand. When I felt sad they bolstered me with talk about my future prospects, discussed things about their happy marriage I should aspire to find, and at one point one of my married sisters and her husband came to visit as a fun distraction. I realize I was VERY Lucky to have so much support.
        Because I was still in the “nest” it was easier than being out in the world in my own apartment.
        Ultimately I changed a lot of my routines, and even moved out and into the city -Chicago my own. I think the more tweaks you can make to shake up routine and FAMILIAR patterns the better. One thing my folks said repeatedly was that I didnt miss HIM – I missed the FAMILIARITY of him. If that makes sense.
        It wasn’t magical – I was miserable and up and down BUT I would refocus on the FUTURE. Being young helps I’ve no doubt, but if a person can just keep looking FORWARD and not give up even if you have a bad day. Keep putting one foot infront of the other and fake a smile until it is Real.

        1. A Victor says:

          Wow Eliza, much wisdom to be had in your comments. Thank you very much for sharing! You were truly blessed with your parents.

          1. Eliza says:

            Thank you AV – Im sorry it was such an “War and Peace” length novel to get through, lol.
            I was lucky with my parents and my birth order too I think – baby of the family of 5 and I had LOTS of input on my life. Sometimes not so welcome 😉
            I know I am not as good a parent for sure…but Im still trying !

          2. A Victor says:

            You’re welcome Eliza, it was very interesting reading, the length not a problem, except for HG maybe, thank you for moderating for us HG! No, Eliza, I have wondered how successful parents do things. I am pretty much beyond need of parenting info, except as to have ready to pass on to my kids if they should ask. But it still fascinates me to learn what works and what doesn’t, to fill in gaps for myself with my parents and also as a parent. So I really enjoyed reading that, all of it! You’re parents are wise. Also, I’m sure you’re doing just fine, you are trying! That’s a lot of it right there! They will see that and be grateful.

          3. Eliza says:

            AVictor <3 thank you for that ! The old saying about Grandparents making better parents is so true… I see so many mistakes we made now that my children are over 18. Hindsight is 20/20. My parents were not perfect by a long shot, BUT, I think -I am learning that if you can get the message across to your children that you love them UNCONDITIONALLY, then they get a sense of security in that. Security most of all could be the foundation to a healthy and well adjusted personality ? Maybe HG has insight on what the most important element is needed for a healthy child to develop. By the way I miss HG on youtube – cue the Peter Gunn theme music. 😉 Dying for his take on the latest Harry confessional.

          4. A Victor says:

            Hi Eliza, took a while to find this one! Anyway, grandparents who are not narcs are good. The narc ones, not as much. Your kids got good ones! And you, they are very blessed!

            We all make/made mistakes parenting. I have apologized and it’s coming full circle with my two that have kids now apologizing to me about some things! They don’t need to for me of course but they feel better if they do i suppose.

            Security that someone loves us unconditionally would offset a lot of things, not the least of which would be an LOC environment. So yes, I’m sure it’s vital for children to have security.

            I have been happy that HG has not been on YT, though I will be equally happy when he returns. It has given me the opportunity to visit and revisit some of the material I have purchased and also some of the videos that have been the most valuable to me. Also, I’ve been watching the increased views on the ‘informational’ videos in his absence and have been so happy to see that! Those are my favorites.

            Glad to have you here Eliza, i appreciate reading your thoughts!

          5. Eliza says:

            AV ! I had to hunt this down as well ! I am really looking forward to my kids having teenagers 😈 I think I will suddenly be given Saint status 😉 Good for YOU that have had some positive feedback from your grown kids !

            You just motivated me to look into what HG says about EThinking in his knowledge vault. I think getting a hold of my ET is a worthwhile endeavor. Wish we could flip a switch on that.
            Have a wonderful day xo

        2. Bubbles says:

          Dearest Eliza,
          Thank you sooo much for sharing your lovely story, what supportive. caring n wise parents you have ……very special indeed
          Do you know what happened to boy X ?
          I luv War n Peace and Gone with the Wind 🤣
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. Duchessbea says:

            Eliza,
            Thank you for sharing your lovely story. Very supportive and genuinely caring parents. Very lucky and blessed. So delighted and happy for you that you found Mr. Right.
            Much Love, DB

          2. Eliza says:

            Hi Bubbles <3 Over the years I would see him at weddings and funerals … he was always weirdly staring or saying inappropriate suggestive things to me when my husband was not with me. CREEP! I dodged a Major Bullet ! He of course cheats on his poor wife according to a friend who still lives in our old neighborhood.
            I saw him recently in a local shop where we live now ( he expanded his restaurant chain here ) He looked AWFUL and I made a beeline to the opposite end of the store to escape.
            He has since closed the restaurant here sadly due to Virus but good for me because I wont have to worry about bumping into him and his weird stare.
            Can I recommend a book/ or movie if you dont have the inclination- Since you are a lover of Epic’s you need to check out Giant ! Its by Edna Ferber and the movie stars Elizabeth Taylor, Rock H and James Dean. You will LOVE it ! xo

          3. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Eliza,
            Thank you lovely one for your reply
            There you go, your parents could see the writing on the wall with this predictable character….. how unhappy you would’ve been with him ….he would’ve cheated on you tooo. His stare is an obvious indicator !
            I’ve done shift work over my lifetime and it doesn’t gel well when the other works normal hours ….. it’s tough on the relationship
            Hospitality (and travel) sadly has suffered immeasurably during Covid …. I know, one of our kids has worked in every aspect of the industry

            Regarding parenting, it’s all trial n error. We’ve found being there for them, supportive and being able to ‘listen’ without passing judgement. We only give advice when they ask. We never criticise their partners, only point out red flag behaviours where necessary (as your parents did)
            We’ve always had a 24/7 open door policy with ours along with a safe place to land …..they still have their own keys to our home
            Perhaps that’s why they luv going away on holidays with us haha
            It sounds like you’re already doing a sterling job with yours

            Arrrr yes, Giant. I saw that movie eons ago …l’m a lover of the Hollywood classics. Never read the book, hmmmm first time for everything.
            Thank you for the recommendation precious
            💕
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

        3. NarcAngel says:

          Eliza

          I very much appreciate your response. It can be helpful to know what approach has worked for others and in what circumstance if/when we find ourselves dealing with those close to us who are ensnared. I’m glad their approach and your acceptance resulted in a successful outcome, and that you have found your way here.

          1. Eliza says:

            Thank You NA and Duchess B ! I so appreciate your kindness 💗 Luckily in this instance I listened … don’t ask about the time I had a party when my parents were away for the weekend 😈 My listening skills went out the window 🤨

            I think the concept of missing the “familiarity” of a relationship is a good thing to keep in mind when trying to reprogram your thinking. Forward thinking and changing up routine as much as you can helps jolt us out of our patterns.
            Don’t you wish we could flip a switch on that Emotional Thinking !? It trips me up on everything from buying brands my Mother never used to important life decisions to politics 🤪Logic Logic Logic !

        4. Caity says:

          Eliza,

          I’m not sure where in the thread this will fall but I did want to thank you for the insight you offered regarding what your family said you were missing. So many times here we comment that we miss the person we thought the narcissist was, because the facade is so overwhelming and so easy to believe, especially when we are low and of course, we are then perfect targets for *wanting* to believe.

          But I liked what you said: You didn’t miss him, you missed the ‘familiarity’ of him. It’s not different really, from the ghost we all discover we’ve been with, but for me at least, it offered another layer.

          Your family was brilliant for logically realising this layer, and offering constructive diversion to help snip the threads of the web he was weaving around you.

          Thank you for sharing.

          1. Eliza says:

            Hi Caity ! It’s a little shortcut to objectifying the person you need to stay away from – in your thoughts or in person. I just kept repeating it like a mantra – I missed the familiar – I miss the familiar- X is a one trick pony – wash rinse repeat- A life of this Roller Coaster ??? No Thanks !!! Even if you have a completely dysfunctional family/parents most of us can at least point to literature or a biography of a healthy relationship to aspire to ! Controlling our thoughts is so Important to breaking away !! Wish it was easier 💔
            Have a Great Day !!

          2. A Victor says:

            Eliza,
            “Controlling our thoughts is so Important…” This has been a major lesson I’ve been attempting to learn since arriving here. I wonder if that is easier for non-ACONs. It would make sense I suppose. I actually had a small twinge of envy when I read that, happy as I am for you also. I think you’ve stated you’re new here and yet there it is. I struggle more with my parents all the time. They were/are products of their upbringing’s also but good grief, they did a number on those they ‘brought up’ too. As has been pointed out in other places, they didn’t ‘raise’ us, we essentially raised ourselves, much of which has been done as an adult. Again, seriously glad for you, your comment just made me realise more the enormity of having the parents I have and the impact of them on me.

          3. Eliza says:

            AV 💔 I’m so sorry my experience brought you to those thoughts.

            I really do realize how fortunate I have been. Life was not a bowl of cherries everyday, but again I know I was lucky.

            My husband is also one of 5 and although he felt his mother loved him, there were and are many serious issues. He, like so many of you has had to overcome much in his upbringing.

            I wonder why some can overcome so much and others are undone ? His self control is legendary and he works at it constantly redirecting his mind with different tricks.

            I am exploring who I have been as a mother these days. The enormity of the responsibility didn’t register as much as it should have in my tired young brain, the way it does now in my slightly more rested more mature one.

            Lots to think about.
            Sending you a virtual hug 💗

          4. A Victor says:

            Hi Eliza, I apologize for the delayed response, I saw this yesterday but between being busy and having to hunt this down, haha!, I am just getting back to it now.

            No worries about my thoughts or my feelings about this! I have been working on it and I was just finding it interesting that it could be a difference between ACONs and nonACONS.

            Your husband, same as your children, is blessed to have you. It sounds like you had a very “normal” upbringing and I’m sure have been a significant help to him in dealing with outcroppings of his upbringing. A ballast when he needed one and air under his wings when he needed it. Probably simultaneously at times. This is likely a huge reason he has been able to overcome whatever he has managed to, in addition to his self-control and redirecting his mind. Others may not have had such solid support, or one of the other pieces, these make a difference with regard to overcoming, and even as we can do some things on our own, without support, it will be slower and more difficult.

            In some ways, I am so happy to be seeing the last one reaching adulthood, even with the current bumps. I was so weighed down with the responsibility of child-rearing when I was doing it that I don’t feel I relaxed for 34 years! Now, happy to let my kids take that on with theirs and give them a break once in a while. I rarely allow myself to reminisce, unless it is just for fun, and it’s not really in my nature. But, I did the best I could at the time and that part is almost done, yay! I enjoy very much time with my adult children, they are now my best friends, where it is appropriate. I am not their best friend(s), though they value me, but that is also as it should be. They protect me and hold me accountable, as with the summer narc last year, and they ask for my thoughts and opinions sometimes, it makes me feel wanted and therefore happy. I think if I were to get remarried at some point they would be relieved in some ways, I do have that as a regret. But, again, I can’t change it, not right now anyway. Yes, lots to think about, always! Thank you again for sharing your thoughts, it has been fun getting to “know” you! Virtual hugs back! 🙂

  3. Whitney says:

    HG, the one who choked me is happy now because he’s thinking positively, like he learnt from me. I reframe everything he was unhappy about into a positive, and he started automatically doing it himself. Now he even reframes my problems into positives. He’s become more positive than me. I told him and he’s proud. He’s taken it as his new identity.

  4. Fiona says:

    I’ve been thinking about this and moved between the article highlighted by BC30 and this and feel the comparison between attachment and narcissism ultimately confuses the discussion? HG states a narcissist chooses not to attach, but manipulates those who do creating anxious attachment …. for me, the key word there, is choice.

    Ultimately, it’s always about control for all of us ie when we choose to exert or cede that control. Situations arise where control feels it has been removed and as highlighted in this article, the reassertion of control is described. The receiver of this powerplay, plays their part ultimately and choose to excuse behaviour …. or not?

    The story telling in both articles is designed to strike chords across the board ultimately exerting control and orchestrating a response, be it sympathy, disbelief etc.

    When in control, we feel at peace, confident, happy which are not feelings a narcissist would utilise but I would argue as a bottom line we all aim for.

    1. BC30 says:

      I suppose many people like to be in control. I know I do and do it through work. Narcissists do not choose, they work through instinct (excepting Greaters) and simply don’t have the capacity and ability to form attachments. The “bolt of anguish shoots through me as the craven creature that first lurked in the bathroom mirror appears” is literary drama. They merely feel a sense of anxiety and dread, similar to what we may feel. We are all physiologically similar.

      Much of the narcissists control is delusion.

      1. A Victor says:

        “Much of the narcissists control is delusion.” what a great way to word this.

        1. BC30 says:

          AV, I responded to your question about feeling well-fueled below.

      2. Leigh says:

        While I agree that this is literary drama, I don’t think Mr. Tudor is exaggerating about how it feels for them. My husband, mother and best friend are all super dramatic. Everything is exaggerated and over the top. I think the creature gnaws at them on a continue basis and they have no way of escaping it. Even when I experience anxiety or dread, its fleeting or short lived and I can always calm myself down. They can’t. Ever. They all seem to be in a state of impending doom, all the time.

        1. A Victor says:

          My mother is the only one that is visibly like this, over the top, all about her. My ex and my dad were more subtle, though they each had their ways of keeping ahead of their creature also, constantly moving forward, just differently than she does. My dad did it through his cold fury, silent treatments, visible, palpable displeasure with something, it was almost worse than her. With her you could sometimes just laugh it off or ignore it, with him, it affected the whole room/house and everyone within. My ex just left. He was so different from them, they were all different from each other, very much fitting the school they each belong to.

          1. Leigh says:

            AV, I seem to have a type, lol. With the exception of workplace narc, the rest of the narcs in my life, are all the same. They are all so melodramatic and miserable. They sulk and sulk and then sulk some more. My best friend would tell me all the time, “You wouldn’t be able to deal with all the things that I have to deal with.” My husband says, “You should live in my head, you couldn’t handle it. Welcome to my world.” As if their problems are the only problems that exist and are the worst problems in the whole entire world.

            All they do is whine, complain and cry. Never a smile, never a laugh. I can’t ever remember any of them ever laughing. They never see the bright side or the silver lining. Every day is doomsday. Its very sad.

            On the flip side of all that, they all think they are the best thing since sliced bread. They all think that they got a raw deal in life and can’t understand why. How could it be that they are so wonderful and the world has done them dirty?

            BC30, I don’t think they realize that they don’t connect to other human beings. At least, my narcs don’t realize that they don’t actually connect. My husband thinks we have a very strong connection. He thinks our marriage is strong. indestructible and everlasting. He has no clue that something is amiss, that something isn’t right between us. I’ve always had the sense that my husband and I don’t fit. Something just didn’t feel right. It wasn’t until I came here that I understood why. The truth is though, he doesn’t have that feeling at all. He feels very connected even though its all a delusion.

          2. BC30 says:

            “I don’t think they realize that they don’t connect to other human beings.” is correct. They do not. When I tried to envision what it feels, like it terrifies me because I know what it feels like to have a human connection. Their “connection” is made through fuel. When we acknowledge their existence, they exist and have a “connection” to other humans. That is why it doesn’t matter if the fuel is positive or negative. All of it is acknowledgement and why ignoring them wounds.

            Only HG (and maybe a handful of Greaters?) can remember the The Before Time and can know what both types of connection feel like.

          3. Leigh says:

            Thats it BC30! They need us to acknowledge their existence. We really are the ones in control.

          4. A Victor says:

            Leigh, your “they all think they’re the best thing since sliced bread” made me laugh! Isn’t that what a narcissist is all about, in a nutshell?

            Probably if I picked narcissists, rather than being born to them, I would also have a type, probably similar to my ex. He was my type, sadly. Haha. Or at least that’s what I’ve thought all these years since I met him. Who else could be so fcking perfect for me. Including with the perfect abuse that I so need? Asshole. I have been a bit upset by him, thoughts of him, memories of him, the last little while, hence my language. Feels kind of good to let it out. Probably my first ex was/is also a narc, they are similar in several major ways.

            I agree with what you said to BC30 about their perception of the connection. My ex just was married, once married, that’s it, settled. He never questioned that, that we’d be together forever. Until he decided to change it, then, he left, connection gone, poof. But until he did that, it was settled, it was us. I was the wife in the homestead compartment of his life. And he was the one hard done to when it ended. Asshole.

          5. Leigh says:

            AV, let it out!!! That’s what we are here for! Scream, holler, yell, shout!!! They are all assholes!

          6. A Victor says:

            Thank you! You did it perfectly! Now i don’t have to! You have more Geyser than I do! 🤣

          7. Leigh says:

            #facts I think Geyser is my favorite!!

          8. A Victor says:

            I hope to embrace it in myself someday, I’m not there yet. But I can appreciate it in others!

          9. Asp Emp says:

            AV, ” Including with the perfect abuse that I so need?” – in what way are you referring to?

            So, are you also saying that you’d consider a future relationship with a narcissist despite what you went through in your past relationships with other narcissists? You’d only end up in the same place as you are at present – confused, hurt, unfulfilled etc. Do you think you’d be content in a relationship where one of you has emotional & cognitive empathy and the other doesn’t?

            Maybe I misunderstood, or maybe it was a blip in the Logical / Emotional Thinking?

          10. A Victor says:

            No, I wondered about the wording when I wrote that. I meant, before I understood about narcissism, I don’t think I would’ve been able to be in a relationship without the abuse, it was what I was used to, it felt familiar, it filled some sick need, I think. Well, at least it kept my ET up and my addiction going. That’s all, it was about where I was at at that time. Not anymore, not at all. I have been afraid of dating, that is on the way out, I have been afraid of being ensnared again, also on the way out. There will be a time that I will want to try again, without any abuse involved. I am looking forward to that. Thank you for asking! I hope it makes better sense now.

          11. Asp Emp says:

            AV, thank you for clarifying…… sometimes we ‘talk out loud’ (speaking out thoughts) when we are on here. I do it. On that note,….NOT guilty as charged 😉

          12. A Victor says:

            Hahaha! I talk to myself out loud all the time! I have one friend who calls herself a verbal processor. But, she needs another person to actually listen to her, it has been some of the most boring time I have spent in my life, listening to her thoughts droning on! She may be a narcissist too. I am happy that for the most part I stick to boring myself, people here have the option to not read my thoughts, though I do feel bad for HG quite often, as our fearless moderator. Thank you HG!

        2. BC30 says:

          I’ve spoken with HG about this topic at length. I was surprised to hear, that on a scale of 0 (dead) to 100 (maximum fuel capacity), that an MMR feels “well-fueled” at a much lower level than I’d have guessed. It’s not really all that bad.

          As an aside, I tried to envision what it must feel like to not have any emotional connection with another human in my entire life. It’s terrifying, so it’s no wonder there’s a constant quest for connection that’s rooted in the only thing they really know, which is the false self.

          HG is very special because he remembers what I call The Before Time, the time before he became a (psychopathic) narcissist.

          1. A Victor says:

            BC30, I keep trying to ask you a question about this and keep getting interrupted, I hope this isn’t a duplicate as a result. Anyway, can you expand at all on “an MMR feels “well-fueled” at a much lower level than I’d have guessed.”? And what it means that it’s not all that bad. If you can’t, I understand. It is just something I have wondered about also. Thanks!

          2. HG Tudor says:

            They do not.

          3. BC30 says:

            Most days, as you go about your daily life, I imagine you have mostly bright moments and a couple moments of sadness or boredom. Maybe you’re bored, but you go into the garden and the bees and flowers make you happy. Some days you feel on top of the world, maybe the day you graduated or got married, etc. Other days, you have what feels like unbearable pain, such as from the death of a loved one. Because we don’t need fuel, we don’t really have a 0-100 scale.

            For example, let’s say one of your family members dies unexpectedly and you’re inconsolable, but your best friend, holds you and rocks you while you sob into their shoulder. Even amidst all that pain, you feel your friend’s love, you feel the positive emotion and connection amidst the suffering. Narcissists do not function that way. They see and feel only black and white. (Obviously, narcissists don’t really care when someone dies, so I use that example only to illustrate our emotions.)

            I initially thought that narcissists would have a good day and be well-fueled and that that be close to 100, but that is not the case. Fuel is short-lived and not all of the same quality, so most of the time they are living at mid-range on the 1-100 scale. Being at either end is rare or nearly impossible. 1 would be a near-death fuel crisis and 100 would be a tremendous amount of potent fuel, like once in a lifetime. (I said MMR because we were talking about one of my narcissists, and IDK if it is the same for all, but I imagine it so.)

            Here’s the best news, IMHO… they subsist on half a tank their entire lives, but we can fill up our tanks with one hug, even just by remembering a special hug from years past. Sending all my love and hugs, AV! 💖

          4. A Victor says:

            BC30, thank you for that explanation. That does make sense. I guess they might not perceive it as “well fueled”, given HG’s reply, but I think I understand what you meant. I asked because my mother, a mid-ranger, doesn’t leave her “office” for the most part, she is on the computer from the moment she wakes up until she goes back to bed, except when making her 3 squares. And, every once in a while I can hear her, loudly, talking on the phone. So, I’ve been wondering how she is staying fueled at all. My dad was similar after he retired, but he always had her around if he needed to get some fuel. Hahaha, that made me laugh, not sure why…!

            Thank you for the love and hugs! I do accept virtual hugs!! And back at you as well! 🙂

          5. Leigh says:

            Your mom and my husband sound very similar. My husband would sit in his bolt hole for hours and not have any human to human interaction. If I may, what kind of narc is your mom?

          6. A Victor says:

            She is a mid-ranger, but so was my dad, of a different subschool, and he did this also. My ex, another mid-range, of yet another subschool, who would never have done this. All three of them different cadres. My dad by far the most intelligent of the three and also the one who was consistently this way throughout his life. My mother has become more so as she’s gotten older and more decrepit. My ex will likely die surrounded by people. I hesitate to be more specific as I have not requested permission.

          7. Leigh says:

            I understand. I know I’m not supposed to ask either. Its just the similarities between us blow me away sometimes. Although I know we have vast differences as well.

          8. A Victor says:

            What do you see as vast differences? I’m just curious as I haven’t picked up on those really. I do think you are a bit more volatile with your anger but I can have my moments even with that. Haha! It’s my smaller degree of Geyser probably!

          9. Leigh says:

            You’re much more soothing and calm then I am. I’m like a bull in a China shop, lol. People aggravate me quickeer than they aggravate you. You remind me of one of my dear friends who I know is an empath too. She’s a peacemaker, like you. And you’re very forgiving. I tend to hold a grudge.

          10. A Victor says:

            Oh, okay, I don’t see those as vast, that’s all. I thought you meant like values and stuff, lol. But okay, I can see those. And some of that may be NY as opposed to MN. But, also just personalities of course. I can’t picture you as a bull in a China shop, I find you very soothing and calm actually. That may be because I do feel like we relate in a lot of ways. But it could also be that it’s hard to read people as they really are online. I am not talkative in real life, but you’d never know that here, for example. I take the peacemaker as a surprise and a compliment. Thank you.

          11. Leigh says:

            Oh gosh, I’m not calm at all. I’m loud, spirited, feisty, opinionated and often times argumentative. I probably present as calm because I don’t feel challenged here. I feel safe and validated and so there’s no reason for the narcissistic traits to come out. Especially with you AV. You make me feel very safe. Thank you

            And yes, I am most definitely a typical New Yorker, lol.

          12. A Victor says:

            Aw Leigh, you made my day! I am always happy to make another feel safe, probably my main cadre coming out. And, it’s what I’m always looking for, safety! That’s how I feel love! So, happy to give that to someone! Haha, safety is not one of the 5 love languages, he should add it.

            I can have argumentative moments when I’m around a narc. Mostly when my ex was around but now, occasionally it has happened with TTU.

            My oldest daughter’s husband is from Buffalo, NY. He brings a lot of life to our reserved MN family!

          13. Leigh says:

            AV, When I first came here, it was to figure out why workplace narc always gave me silent treatments. I didn’t comment at first. I was in the learning process. I just wanted to soak up as much information as possible. Then I found out that I’m an ACON and an IPPS. Talk about Bombshell, lol! I’m getting to a point, I promise. I’m just taking the long way, lol. Sorry Mr. Tudor. When I finally did start to comment, you were one of the few that made me feel comfortable and safe. Our journey’s are so similar and we connected. I operate in two modes, extremely introverted (under my rock) or extremely extroverted (you can’t shut me up). You tend to bring out the extrovert. Thank you.

            Now, what’s TTU?

          14. A Victor says:

            Oh, I didn’t realize you began commenting around when I arrived, it sounds like anyway. You did the same for me actually! But I literally found the site and jumped in within a day or two, I do enjoy writing my thoughts but never ever journaling. Thank you for sharing that!

            The Thing Upstairs, aka my mother. Asp Emp and I are using that so I can objectify her better, it does help with the ANC.

          15. Leigh says:

            Ha! That’s fantastic! TTU! I love it! My brother used to call my father, “You know who”. LOL. You see, my older brother has a different father than me and my younger brother. Whenever he would talk about him, he would say, “You know who.”

            I was commenting already but no where near as much as I do now. In the beginning I was still a little nervous. Once I started interacting with you, I couldn’t shut up, lol.

          16. A Victor says:

            Leigh, “You know who” made me laugh out loud! I call my ex that to my oldest daughter who has a different father, my first husband. She used to call my ex ‘dad’, grew up with him as her dad figure. Now, she won’t, she has completely rejected him.

            Please, keep the comments coming! I love reading your perspective and thoughts!

          17. Asp Emp says:

            AV, thank you for the mention…. ‘that thing upstairs’ is more objectifying, dismissive and demeaning than ‘the thing upstairs’ 😉

          18. A Victor says:

            That is great! That really made me laugh!! Okay, we go with ‘That’, hahhaha

          19. Leigh says:

            I think they way we were raised was quite different too. I was physically abused and neglected. My abuse was much more overt and I think your abuse was much more covert.

          20. A Victor says:

            Oh, I was physically abused by my mother, all the time, violently and we never knew what would trigger it. Then, most of the time, she’d make us sit on her lap, look her in the eye and tell us God loved us and so did she blah, blah, blah. That part was almost worse than the physical stuff. My brother is an atheist and my sister is in a cult today. Go figure. And neglected by my dad, but not as far as food and clothes etc, just as far as any relationship. So, no relationship with either one. I do remember us talking once though about my mom taking care of meals and stuff, and I haven’t said a lot about the overt abuse I experienced so that makes sense. It turned me out a pretty messed up person, not knowing love from hate. It is really sad for us. But I am glad we can learn and change. That gives me hope.

          21. Leigh says:

            I didn’t know that. I just assumed your abuse wasn’t physical. I apologize for making that assumption. It definitely screwed with my head. I often made excuses for the abuse and I’m sure you did as well.

            Was your husband physically abusive? Do I remember correctly that you said your husband raped you while you slept? I would most definitely consider that physical abuse.

          22. A Victor says:

            Leigh, no need to apologize, I would probably do the same unless I knew. Yes, I did make excuses, mostly that though I didn’t know why it was happening, I must’ve done something to deserve it. It was an easy jump, concerning her, to the idea that if someone abuses you, they can’t have loved you. I saw the connections with narcissistic abuse and my mother’s behavior soon after I arrived here. It was more difficult with my dad and even more difficult with my ex. Part of it was not understanding the different forms abuse can take, it became easier after learning that and also after hearing the reasons they are narcissists on the NDC’s I did for them. That was a whole education in itself!

            One of my daughter’s and I were discussing the other day about physical vs mental/emotional abuse. She was put in the hospital on a number of occasions by a live-in (for 2 years) boyfriend, before I learned of he abuse and we were able to get her away from him. She said she didn’t know which was worse, and she observed that he prepped her for the first year or so for the physical by means of mental and emotional abuse. She said had he not done that, she would have left the first time he physically hurt her but as such, she put up with it for a year. He is one of a small handful of people in my life that I hope I never run into. Anyway, I told her that ultimately, in my experience, the physical was worse, because it included mental, emotional and spiritual, it was all combined. When it was mental or emotional, it was only those one or two, not 4 methods of abuse happening simultaneously. I know that is not everyone’s experience, some say the physical is easier to deal with, the bruises heal etc. For me it was an interesting conversation.

            My ex was not physically abusive except for the rape. He raised his fist to me once but turned and left instead, I don’t know why. But that was near the end and I was challenging him probably more than usual. The rape was very early in the relationship, I was already hooked on him but I feel that he was establishing ownership or “consensus” or maybe it was a test of compliance, who knows, except for HG probably. It was physical abuse but nothing compared to my mother. She had prepped me to accept a lot so I always wondered if I was blowing things out of proportion with both of them. Until a therapist questioned my description and explanation of my mother’s abuse. That was one of two things that has helped me from therapists and that one was massive. The other was a therapist who made me realize I had an anger issue, as my ex sat there with a smirk on his face. I couldn’t understand how I was the one being talked to but accepted it must be me. Now I know that likely it was a narcissist at work and being very successful. Assholes, both of them. Okay, the therapist was a victim of my ex’s manipulations so I suppose he’s not an asshole. But, I hope he’s learned some things since then. If not, he would continue to pile abuse on abuse in his ignorance.

            Your husband is not physically abusive, right? I have ‘assumed’ that. I appreciated your comment on another thread a few days ago, about your mother’s agoraphobia and so on. I cannot imagine having to handle the things you did, you are a very strong person, reading that really gave me an enormous amount (even more) of admiration for you. It made me wonder if you mother is of the victim cadre, mine is, and it is, from the different ones in my life, the worst. Absolutely the worst. And, she’s not the brightest bulb in the bucket which makes it even more of a challenge, her default for asserting control is often aggression whether verbal or physical. Pity plays are right up there too. It’s a horrible combination to be around but now that I know what I’m dealing with, it has been quite easy, for the most part, to have ANC with her. Who needs that crap in their life? Not me, not anymore.

          23. Leigh says:

            AV, I don’t know if physical or psychological abuse is worse. I think they are just different.

            I haven’t done the narc detector on any of the toxic people in my life. I believe my mother is a victim narcissist though. She never hit me or any of us. She would pull my hair sometimes but not that often. My husband has only used physical violence a couple of times in our 36 years and nothing too severe. He has shoved me and restrained me. What he reaaly likes to do is threaten me with physical violence. Thats his go to. Last September he threw something at my head and missed. Then he said to me, “if I wanted to hit you, I would have hit you. Now shut the fuck up.” It was that incident that made me realize he was a narcissist. I cant do that to someone I don’t like, let alone someone I love. I believe he’s a victim narcissist too. The physical violence or the threat of physical violence has only come out when I’ve severly wounded him. Most of the time his manipulations are pity plays. He’s a chronic complainer and sulks incessantly.

            Thank you for your admiration. I appreciate it. Remember, you’ve been to hell and back too and you’re still standing also Not even multiple narcissists can take any of us down!

          24. A Victor says:

            Leigh, your last paragraph brought me to tears, in a good way! You are so right! Thank you for that. And you’re welcome!

            I think you are correct, abuse is abuse, just different flavors and cannot be compared. Each individual would likely respond differently to different things also.

            I have wondered from different comments you’ve made about your ex possibly having a Victim cadre also, like my mom, your mom too though I’ve seen less about her. The rest of what you wrote regarding your husband points to mid range I think also, like TTU, but she was less about threatening violence and instead just did it if she was so inclined. I suppose without the NDC it is not possible to know for sure and I understand that not everyone is interested in doing those. They were surprisingly emotional for me to fill out.

            I am so sorry to hear about your husband’s mistreatment of you, you deserve so much better. I am glad that the throwing incident brought you here though, a good outcome from a bad situation.

            I love your absolute belief in us, it is helping me to absorb that, thank you!

          25. Leigh says:

            Fucking A I believe in all of us! We are fiercely strong, bad ass women!

            I don’t talk about my mom much because I barely talk to her anymore. I’ve never had an respect for her but now I don’t even want to have any dealings with her at all. She’s lives in a nursing home for about 12 years now. As soon as she turned 65 she went in. She really is a pathetic specimen. I wasnt the true target of her abuse. My older brother was. He is developmentally disabled. His mental capacity is about the age of a third grader. My mother was awful to all of us. Truly neglected us all. The only time we ate was when we wee in school. But she was extra awful to him. He would say to her, “I love you, mom” and she wouldn’t say it back. She would say, ‘”that’s nice, now go to your room.” He was her lackey. He did everything for her. He finally had a mental breakdown and had to be taken away from her. He’s good now. He lives with a very nice couple who have 3 other developmentally disabled adults. When my father or my younger brother would come after me, he would often try and protect me. It brings me peace knowing he is away from her.

            I haven’t seen her in over 15 months except a couple of calls on FaceTime. We maybe speak once a month for 5 or 10 minutes. I have no intention of ever visiting her again.

            As for my father, he physically abused all of us. Again, i wasn’t the main target. For my dad, it was my younger brother. My dad has been gone for 12 years.

            Slowly but surely the narcs in my life are being removed. Dad gone, mom ANC, workplace narc no longer at my job. Now I just have to figure out how to get away from my husband and my best friend.

            I haven’t talked about my best friend yet. Thats a really tough one. I trusted her more than my husband.

          26. A Victor says:

            Fucking A, yes we are!!

            I have been waiting to reply to these two comments from you until I was at my laptop. But, I have been thinking about them and had not forgotten or ignored, no way!

            I am so glad you have been clear of your mother for the most part for so long and your sweet brother as well. It is such a statement that he tried to protect you, an absolutely horrifying thing to read but equally as wonderful regarding his love for you and his character. Your mother sounds like a horrible person, neglectful and mean, she did not deserve children and certainly not ones such as you and your older brother. And there are not even words for your dad. I am sorry if this is going too far, sometimes people can say something about their friends or family but take offense if others do. Know I will never again voice these opinions but it is infuriating to know that people do these things to their children and it makes me hurt for young you and your brothers. And as mothers, you and I know it shouldn’t be that way, not ever, not for any reason. I am glad to read your older brother is in a good place now.

            As to your comment about your best friend, I absolutely believe you. I feel the same way very often, it is even hard for me to believe sometimes just how much narcissism has affected my life. You are not alone in wondering about how it comes across to others. But, here, with me anyway, it’s all good. I know others would say the same also.

            Wow, a psychologist, a narc and your best friend, all rolled into one. She was in a prime position to abuse. That’s really too bad. I wonder if she changed her opinion realizing you might figure her out, my mother never wanted us to go to any therapy and I always thought it was for this reason. I can totally understand the lack of trust in therapists having had this combination in your life. We know that the information we are given here is solid. We can walk away with that information and it is still effective if we use it, that in my opinion clears up any doubt that it is misinformation. HG does not make us dependent on him, he gives tools to be independent from narcissists. We then can take or leave whatever we wish, but, we will have a better outcome the more of those tools that we chose to use. I am so sorry to hear that what should have been your strongest ally in your fight, on a personal as well as professional level, has turned out to be so harmful. Have you considered doing a narc detector on her? It might help a lot to know more about her specific type and what to expect etc.

          27. Leigh says:

            AV, first let me tell you that you didn’t offend me saying those things about my parents. They are monsters! When you called my mother horrible, I thought, “Oh, that’s harsh.” Its not because you said it, its because its true. Its so sad. You’re speaking about my mother and I don’t want to defend her. She is an awful woman.

            As for my best friend, she changed her opinion because Mr. Tudor threatened her control over me so she had to smear him. Which is why your mother didn’t want any of you to go to therapy, it threatened her control.

            I have thought about doing the NDC on my best friend I think she’s Upper Mid Range Elite. I say upper mid range because some of there manipulations are planned. My girlfriend knows when she is being manipulative. We’ve discussed it. She doesn’t know why she manipulates. She doesn’t know its because of the narcissism. But she knows she does it.

            Whereas, my husband, mother or workplace narc had no idea they were manipulative. If you said that to them, they would say, “I don’t even know how to manipulate.”

            Shes the only one that I still care about. If I had a magic wand and I could add back empathy, I would. Thats why its hard for me to talk about her. I still want her to be fixed.

          28. A Victor says:

            I understand, there is a grieving process when we realize things sometimes. Or know things, whichever. You are correct about the reason TTU would never have gone to therapy nor wanted anyone else to either, I didn’t quite realize it in that wording, but that is it. I get it about that magic wand, wish I had one sometimes for sure. My dad was the calculating type of narcissist. He was very good at it. And, he liked both women and books. A lot.

          29. Leigh says:

            What you said about the therapist saying you had anger issues is exactly why I won’t go see a therapist. For the longest time I thought it was me who had the issue. I finally have validation that I’ve been abused my whole life. There is no way in hell I’d let a therapist take that away from me now.. The puzzle pieces finally fit.

          30. A Victor says:

            Yes, that was a set back for me, I believed it for far too long. You are wise in your thinking, in my opinion.

          31. Leigh says:

            I guess now is a good time to start talking about my best friend. I swear sometimes when I write here on the blog, I wonder if people will believe me because my posts seem so unbelievable. My best friend is a psychologist and I believe she’s a narcissist herself. Thats part of the reason why I can’t trust therapists. When I first started learning about narcissism, she was on board with my learning. I even directed her to this blog and told her what a goldmine I had found. At first, she agreed. Then, before I knew it, her opinion changed. She told me I was obsessed and that it wasn’t healthy. She told me that Mr. Tudor was very dangerous because he gave victims of narcissists misinformation. This was about the time that I had told her that I believed my husband was a narcissist. Instead of having my back, she chose to invalidate me. I made the decision to not allow anyone to invalidate me again. There are others things that she has done that have brought me to that conclusion but I’m not ready to share that quite yet.
            Recognizing the narcissism in her has probably been the worst one yet.

          32. Leigh says:

            I loved this comment! ❤❤❤

        3. BC30 says:

          I forgot to add that we can be super dramatic. Ask my assistant what happens when an email is overlooked. 🙂 My staff is amazing and I’d go to the mat for them, but I’m a Geyser and every office snafu is a gloom and doom disaster.

          1. Asp Emp says:

            BC30, that made me laugh 🙂

          2. Leigh says:

            I’m part Geyser too so yes, I can be dramatic as well. I usually can calm myself down though and the drama is short lived. When something bad happens to them, its the end of the world and can’t calm themselves down.

  5. Eliza says:

    HG, the first part of the experience reminds me of a PMS day beginning. I can stand and give the mirror the finger for a good minute … awful.

    1. Asp Emp says:

      Eliza, this is why I tend to get out of the same side of my bed every morning, yet, occasionally, I am still the ‘stroppy madam’ and I don’t always bother with looking in a mirror just to “give the mirror a finger”….. (laughing)

      1. A Victor says:

        What do you mean by “stroppy”? I think it’s an English term that I can guess at but don’t know for sure.

        1. Asp Emp says:

          AV, stroppy = moody. Just like a teenager being awkward…… (laughing)….. actually I used “stroppy little madam” to my friend’s dog…. because it was resisting at being put in a harness for a walk….. (laughing)….

          1. A Victor says:

            Ah, I see. I appreciate you definition, the one I googled was not as nice, which is why I asked your meaning. Thank you!

      2. Eliza says:

        ”Stroppy Madam” please let me steal that phrase ;p I am an avid reader of British authors but I haven’t come across that one !! I love it !

        1. Asp Emp says:

          E, please do use the words – am delighted you liked it 🙂

      3. Bubbles says:

        Dearest Asp Emp,
        I grew up with this word “stroppy” ….so many words are no longer used these days …. sad
        Another one for our new ‘dic’ …..as narcs are always ‘stroppy’ 🖕
        🤣
        Luv Bubbles xx 😘

        1. A Victor says:

          Bubbles,

          Your comment made me laugh! It was more in line with the definition I found when I googled it!

          1. Bubbles says:

            Dearest A Victor,
            My mum used it frequently with me …..
            “Don’t you get stroppy with me young lady, you do as you’re told”
            Arrrr, the good ol days 😂
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          2. A Victor says:

            Haha, for me it was “smart”, “Don’t you get smart with me young lady, you’ll do it because I said so!” Haha, as you said, the good ol days! 🙂

          3. Bubbles says:

            Dearest AV,
            I forgot about ‘smart’ ….. yesssss!!!
            Also “wipe that smirk/smile off your face, or “stop crying, or I’ll give you something to cry about”
            Classic one was “I’ll/Go wash your mouth out with soap” 😱
            Who were these barbarians ?????
            I ‘blame’ the Brits !!! (Ooooo …..that’s so narcy of me) 🤣
            Obviously, ‘parenting’ at its ‘best’ back then 😂
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          4. A Victor says:

            Yes!! All of those! Took me back! Lol, but I didn’t want to go!! My mother does have some English in her…let’s go with that. 🤣

        2. Asp Emp says:

          Oh, Bubbles, so sorry that I missed your response. Laughing…. you grew up with the word ‘stroppy’? I totally and utterly agree with you – sad that words like ‘stroppy’ are not used as much now……

          You’ve done it again, Bubbles….. laughing……. ‘dic’…… yes, ok we’ll add ‘stroppy’ to that…… laughing…..

          I think empaths can be stroppy and all too 😉 xx

          1. Bubbles says:

            Dear Asp Emp,
            Absolutely….. we’re female 🤣
            Also add ‘belligerent’ …..that’s how it gets with narcs ….. WAR !!!! 😂
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          2. Asp Emp says:

            Laughing……

  6. BC30 says:

    This is absolute bull shit. Being a narcissist is not bad at all. It’s just a wee bit of anxiety.

    https://narcsite.com/2020/09/28/attachment-is-the-seat-of-misery-13/

    1. A Victor says:

      BC30, I was about to write “This is heart-wrenching, seeing so clearly the ‘misery’, the emptiness, of the narcissist.” So which is it? Bull shit or heart-wrenching??

      1. BC30 says:

        Emptiness? There is no misery for the narcissist. It honestly feels like some kind of anxiety at worst, excepting maybe, a fuel crisis.

        1. BC30 says:

          Whoops. I hit send too soon I was also going to add that the misery is from our perspective. They don’t know what they’re missing. They haven’t given a flying fuck about anyone much less felt love for anyone. They are about as miserable as my cat is when he’s napping in his cat bed after a meal.

          1. Asp Emp says:

            BC30, “as miserable as my cat is when he’s napping in his cat bed after a meal” – your choice of words made me laugh….. it also reminded me of the expression “Let sleeping dogs lie”.

          2. Leigh says:

            The misery is from our perspective. Holy Shit! A fuck ton of light bulbs just went on for me. Part of my problem is I feel bad for them because I always think they are miserable and I want to help them get rid of that misery. You’re right though, they are just like a cat. They come in, get what they need and then keep it moving. The cat isn’t miserable, not in the least. They cat is completely fine. It got exactly what it needed. The narcissist is completely empty. One big void. Like the cat, they take what they need and keep it moving.

          3. A Victor says:

            Yes, this has been a light bulb moment for me as well. I now see how my ex could walk away with no looking back even more clearly. He honestly didn’t care about anything except himself, ever. Even with all his “poor me”, pity play moments. Or all those times that he “seemed” to be so concerned with my well-being, which looking back, I accepted very little as acceptable in this regard. The perspective thing is kicking in and it is very helpful on many levels.

          4. BC30 says:

            Yup. We had a work luncheon last week and the topic of cats eating their deceased owners came up (yes, we are an odd bunch). My cat would eat my face. That’s ok. He’s a cat and truth be told, he has more connection to and empathy for me than any narcissist has ever had.

          5. Asp Emp says:

            Laughing…..

          6. A Victor says:

            I see, thank you.

          7. Sweetest Perfection says:

            BC30, I agree. I saw this image a couple of days ago and thought it was extremely accurate and powerful https://pin.it/4T49WpI

          8. A Victor says:

            Haha, that is fitting. Assholes.

          9. Leigh says:

            I love to study cats. It really puts in perspective for me. I really believe they are little narcissists too. I have two cats. One is a male and very young. The other is a female and over 15. I have to keep them separated because I don’t want the male cat to hurt my senior cat. I keep them on separate floors. If the senior cat doesn’t enter the young male’s Sphere of Influence, he doesn’t even think about her. He doesn’t sit at the stairs meowing for her. He just goes on his way. The minute he hears her meowing or sees her outside, then all of sudden he becomes Mr. Nosey Body. He’s gotta be all up in her business. Otherwise, out of sight, out of mind.

          10. BC30 says:

            Exactly! I frequently spot new similarities.

      2. Eliza says:

        Interesting ! I felt heart sick reading it as well. A manipulation probably, but a narcissist is flesh and blood human being -so feeling pain/anxiety is perhaps experienced as loss of control ?? I am new here so I need to learn and have to read more.
        I have to add that but for the “Grace of God “ I had a love affair and engagement with a narcissist and luckily for me Mr Right Empath ( probably a Super from what I am learning ) came along and I haven’t looked back until now !
        This forum and site has been a resource for me as a Mom guiding my children .

        1. A Victor says:

          It’s probably low on fuel, in the morning I would assume they wake up that way. Once he starts to get some, his whole outlook improves. Welcome to the blog! Glad to hear you avoided a longer ensnarement!

          1. Eliza says:

            Thank You AV ! I still cringe thinking of that time in my life. What a block head he was, what was I thinking ?!

          2. A Victor says:

            You’re welcome! But, you’re not a block head, that would mean the rest of us are too! I just didn’t know, same as you. I am very happy you had your parents to help you figure it out early on. But, I do get the cringing!! I do that too! 🙂

      3. WildViolet22 says:

        A Victor- mine has the traits of a victim lesser, but there’s a lot more going on with him than just the narcissism, including substance abuse, and I think he’s far from content. But how his behavior affects other people just isn’t a motivating factor for him, unless it’s to be a d*** and get negative fuel and attention from people, with some “okay” moments peppered in.

        Although I almost said “mine had the traits”, which for me is a good sign that I’m thinking of him in past tense now (almost 10 months no contact). At this point I don’t care if he’s miserable or content, and I don’t want to know anything about what he’s doing or not doing (or feeling) every again. I’m just happy I’m out, and don’t want to be back in that awful, emotional thinking place ever again. :/

        (It’s wildviolet22 and I’m having trouble logging into world press, hopefully my comment will post)

        1. A Victor says:

          Hi WildViolet, your comment made it! I am so happy for you as well, past tense! 10 months is great! Mine had substance abuse issues too, along with a wide variety of other addictions. I guess it is not uncommon for narcissists to have these issues. I am glad you’re out too.

          1. WildViolet22 says:

            Thank you A Victor, I’m glad you are out too! It’s a good feeling, much better than that awful emotional thinking hell. :/

        2. BC30 says:

          This is fucking awesome!

      4. Bubbles says:

        Dearest A Victor, BC30, Asp Emp n Leigh,
        Sorry to clump you all together hehe
        My mum is like the cat, couldn’t give a damn, does what she pleases and everyone must wait on her
        If her cat escapes from the front door, her attitude is ” ok see ya then, death awaits, byyyyeeee” and closes the door …. so sad too bad ! She still has one cat left, so she’s not too fussed!
        If the next cat escaped as well, she’ll just get me to buy her another one, just like narcs do with their appliances …..she treated me the same …. but there was no see ya or byyeeee!
        Luv Bubbles xx 😘

        1. Leigh says:

          I swear cats are little narcissists. No empathy at all!

        2. A Victor says:

          Bubbles, this made me laugh!! My mom lives alone, upstairs, with 3(!) of these narcissistic creatures right now! She has one that is always escaping and her “control” comes from panicking about it, the cat’s going to die, get it back in!!! It used to bug me, now I laugh, because I understand where it’s coming from. The cat never wants to stay out, just go on the porch for a minute.

          She never let us have any freedom either. Haha.

          1. TheVimtoSlut says:

            That did raise one of those ‘wry grins!’ 😃

            Your mother and mine sound identical. Except mine has a dog. Lovely thing she is too but completely untrained on lead. That’s the 🐕. My mum is just a 🐄.

            Like you’ve experienced, I saw the complete histrionics when a loss of control has been perceived. Dog/cat running away and being ‘lost’. And it IS irritating. It was never rational with her. (Think three family properties with enclosed, 8 ft fenced gardens.)

            The other thing you touch on is control over YOUR personal freedom as child. I bet that extends, or tries too, even now?

            Here’s a thing you might consider to wind her up.

            I personally witnessed a four cat ‘Council’ a while back. Right under my bedroom window at night. Not only that my Tom who buggered off not only keeps visiting me he slaughtered 4/5 small mammals and birds per week since CV19 was rearing its ugly head. Bro said I’d be ‘Up before the Haig’ for war crimes or genocide. IDK.

            Even though he’s not here, he still keeps on bringing me mice. That’s the Tom not my brother. Bros’ just a filthy 🐀!

            Two the other night! One for me, one smaller one for his sister. He may not choose to live with us but he’s like the adult child who comes and goes at will. I’m relieved he’s ok.

            It would be tremendous fun if you envigled that into a convo and watched her expression! And then fed back!

          2. A Victor says:

            Hi TheVimtoSlut, hahaha, your comment made me giggle too! The little pictures are perfect! You got it, she’d love to still control everything in my life if I allowed it. And I’m a grandma! Lol!!

            Oh no, I hated the “gifts” my cats brought home! Once it was a squirrel that had to be 18 inches long! Grossest thing ever. Your bro sounds like he’s good for a laugh anyway! Is he a narc?

            Yes, I’m glad your Tom is okay too, they are fun to have around.

            Oh, she grew up on a farm, used to kill the chickens to cook for dinner herself. Lol! She doesn’t like that cats kill birds though!! Also, I don’t talk to her. Not any more than I am forced to. But, I did enjoy your comment, kept me giggling!

          3. Bubbles says:

            Dearest A Victor,
            Haha
            Funny, same with my mum…. the cat goes outside, sees it’s alone and immediately meows to come back in. The only difference, my mum never panics! I’ve never known her to stress over anything in her whole life.

            I never had any freedom either, my nights n weekends were laid out for me …..consisting of chores! I had very few friends
            Mum made me feel like I was a guest in my own home

            Mum’s cats have always been given the Royal treatment
            I should’ve been a cat
            Meow 😂
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          4. A Victor says:

            Dear Bubbles,

            Now your comment made me laugh! Your mom and my ex, never stressed narcs, how does that work???

            I never had chores, except for those rare and short-lived times when my mother decided it would be good for us. They literally lasted for a day or two, tops. She was such a control freak, she did it all. I was in my room alone a lot, or outside with my brother and a neighbor kid or two. Or watching stupid stuff on tv. I don’t have a lot of memories with my parents, they were not around. Until something upset the apple cart, then she was all kinds of “around”. We tiptoed so this would not happen, left her alone, stayed quiet. When I became an adult, out on my own for the first time, I realized one day that the papers on the floor would not pick themselves up, I had to do it. I had to learn every single thing about keeping a house as I went along, I had no cleaning skills, no organizing skills, no cooking skills, nothing. It has been a huge gap in my knowledge, I’ve been so angry at times about this. Along with no parenting skills. And what happened on those days when we were going to have chores? Nothing but criticism and pressure to do it better, perfectly as she would, never mind we’d had no practice. If you made it this far, thank you for letting me vent. If you didn’t, I understand, it is a dumb thing to whine about. But as a result, I made sure my kids learned how to do things, and when they moved out, they understood how to keep a house together, so a good outcome came of it anyway.

            I have seen my mother kick cats. But she did worse to me so yes, better to have been a cat! Haha, never looked at it that way before!! Good grief, the things we discuss here!!

          5. Bubbles says:

            Dearest AV,
            My mum has always been ‘stoic’ in her demeanour ….. I’m sure her face is made of stone, matches her heart! 😂 Less stress means you live longer !
            I’ve always worn my ’emotions’ on my sleeve …. typical dead giveaway empath !!
            I can’t believe you had no domestic skills AV…. that would’ve been an enormous shock to your system
            I remember having to stand on a chair to wash the dishes. Washed clothes in a trough (stoked the fire for hot water) with a long stick and then using the blue cubes tied in a bag with string for whites, (then bleaching). Thank goodness for the wringer washing machines! Yaayyy. Ouch for the fingers and twisted washing!
            We used to have an ‘ outside dunny ‘ with torn up newspaper for bum paper at the end of the back yard. We had two crossed sticks on either end to hold up two washing lines! That was fun, cos the line would break from the weight of the washing and everything would get dirty again….. back to the ‘washing board’ as they say 😂
            We had the horse n cart man drop of freshly made bread (none of this fancy sliced stuff) the ice man dropped off ice for our ice chest (no fridges back then) the milkman leaving billy cans, then we’d ladel the milk
            I knew how to do everything, clean the house from top to bottom…..properly ! I was excellent at polishing the silver and wooden floors til I could see my face gleam! I could bake, plus cook a dinner, set the table, tablecloth n all (that I had ironed…. I could iron everything) I was taught to sew, knit n crochet! My mother and grandmother both being excellent seamstresses/tailoresses . I had a weekend job at 12 years old, plus complete my chores at home …..not to mention shelling all those bloody peas !!!
            My job in the garden was “weed puller” and “leaf raker”! I was also a ‘girl guide’ so I had to earn my badges! Organisational skills, absolutely!
            Then it was farm work, goats, chooks, ducks , rounding up sheep, drenching, fleecing, etc
            Hard yakka? You bet ! I used to crash into bed completely knackered ! If I wasnt doing chores I was in my room being punished for all n sundry, more like out of sight, out of mind for my mum !
            The only area I lacked was financial skills, I had to learn it all the hard way! My mother took most of my hard earned money and kept it (as did her mother)

            My mother has always been kind to animals (she considers herself the animal whisperer) …. it’s just humans she detests, that’s why they’re her servants! My mum is the female version of Crocodile Dundee with the water buffalo 🐃 POWER n CONTROL!!!

            I’m so saddened to hear how unkind your mother was you AV, no one deserves that, nor do animals 😢
            💕
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

            Ps mum’s indoor cats haven’t a clue what to do with mice …. a couple got in her house and all they did was stare at each other in complete shock and amazement, until the mice finally made an exit ! 🙀🐭
            🤣

          6. A Victor says:

            Wow Bubbles, you had to grow up so early, so quickly! Thank you for sharing this, I told you, I have nothing to whine about, I can’t even imagine. This is impressive, that you did it. I hope your adult life has been good. Having Mr Bubbles must’ve helped a lot. You certainly deserve it after what your mother put you through. So sad. Childhood should be light, training for adulthood but not mini-adults. Narc parents are the worst.

          7. A Victor says:

            Bubbles, you reminded me of the first washing machine my 1st ex and I had!! It was an old wringer, in the early 80s! It’s amazing that thing even still worked. But I had forgotten about having to run his jeans through that thing, when we were able to get a regular one, it was quite a relief!

            Your mother was horrible for taking your money. Her cats sound nicer than she does! 🙂

          8. Bubbles says:

            Dearest AV,
            I guess it made me who I am today
            Cheap child labour at its best 😂

            Mr Bubbles has been an enormous support knowing my plight with my mother … he keeps me level headed
            He still can’t get over some of the things she says n does …..seeing is believing !
            My mum thinks it’s ‘her’ doing that I turned out a good person, gives herself the bragging rights
            Little does she know 😉
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          9. A Victor says:

            Haha, they sure like to take credit, don’t they? If they only knew!!

          10. Bubbles says:

            Dearest AV,
            Cats don’t rate compared to my mother …. they purr, 😻my mother plots ! 😈
            🤣
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          11. A Victor says:

            Haha, good point!!

        3. Leigh says:

          All this discussion is reminding me of my own mother and how she was with our dogs. I remember one time my dog got out and at the time she was in heat. Well, one thing led to another, lol. My mother calls me at work, in a panic. ” Please come home quick. Doggy got out and she’s being raped. He’s stuck inside her and hurting her.” Now mind you, this was way before cell phones. She actually called the job where I was working at the time.

          Why do they care so much about animals? Is it because they are easier to control?

          1. A Victor says:

            That story was hysterical! I read an abbreviated version to my son, he even chuckled. He thinks I’ve lost it sometimes when I’m on here. Anyway, I have wondered the same thing, all of the narcs in my life have had a lot of interaction with animals, cat-kicking aside, almost all of the interactions have been positive ones. I have been triangulated with all of them at some point or another, so I suppose they’re useful to the narcissists in that way. But, there seems to be honest affection toward them too, which has seemed odd..

          2. Leigh says:

            Lol! I’m glad he enjoyed it. It is hysterical how the narcissist acts, sometimes.

            It does seem like affection but I get the feeling that its there lack of control over them is what causes their hysteria and histrionics.

          3. A Victor says:

            And how it makes us jump at those behaviors! Fuel fest ensuing, watching us run around trying to catch the escapee! I don’t do it anymore, since learning about this, here, and now, she doesn’t do it as much either! It has been amazing to see this! Proof that it was just to make people jump! So sick.

          4. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Leigh,
            It gives them extra leverage in order to control you, reverts attention back to them and gains fuel into the bargain! Dog being raped … drama much, hope you told her to squirt the hose on them 😂
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          5. Leigh says:

            Lol! The hose is a good idea! Sadly, I fueled her. I think I was 18 at the time and was so pissed off that she called me at work. I was like, what the f*** do you want me to do about it???

            Thank you for this explanation! Its another light bulb moment for sure!

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