Woke : The Rise of Narcissism on the Left

270 thoughts on “Woke : The Rise of Narcissism on the Left

  1. Asp Emp says:

    People are responding to the behaviours towards the England footballers all over. My friends on Facebook. A friend on Twitter. I don’t normally comment / get involved. But I shared the ‘Woke’ video when it was released. And again earlier today. If any of my friends actually view / listen to this video, maybe, just maybe they may look into narcissism further. Maybe not.

    It’s a DAMNED shame that there is not enough “authority” bodies to really challenge our own government. Even if I wrote to my local MP, he’d use my letter as fkg toilet paper. What is the fkg point in having so-called Laws if they are not being utilitised for the exact purposes they are designated for? What is the fkg point in “the little and unimportant” people, like me making ‘noises’ and ‘speaking up’ when it would just get pushed to one side. Again.

    Come Monday next week, I’ll be speaking to my local buddies in person. There’s much to discuss.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you for sharing the video.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        HG, you’re welcome and thank you for your response 🙂

  2. Sweetest Perfection says:

    Thanks so much, friends. This is so sad. I read an article by Barney Roney on The Guardian today claiming that England had to take a look at itself because of these racist insults. I would not limit it to England, though.

    1. Witch says:

      English football fans are particularly notorious for their violence and abuse after matches so it’s quite embarrassing that they continue to racially abuse their own players. Considering their behaviour over a game, it’s also pretty ironic that they think black people are more like animals than they are

  3. Sweetest Perfection says:

    Ohhh… racist incidents after the game yesterday. Nothing new under the sun in the world of football, though. Since I’m not English, nor do I follow football unless my original country is playing, does anyone dare to give an account of what happened? I just read it on the news.

    1. Asp Emp says:

      SP, it was graffiti sprayed on one of the player’s pic. Absolutely appalling. The locals responded by leaving notes of support to the footballer in question. It was unwarranted.

    2. Witch says:

      Game went to penalties
      Rashford, Sancho and Saka took the shots and missed
      Low IQ people took to Twitter calling them the N word and referring to them as monkeys etc
      Some of those culprits crying in HR meetings this morning after just coming off of furlough and F-ing it right up

    3. Another Cat says:

      I saw the whole thing, and there were apparently racist attacks afterwards against the very young guys who missed their penalty shots (an even game, it came down to penalties). Weird. Both goalkeepers looked cute imo.

      1. Sweetest Perfection says:

        Googling goalkeepers…

        1. SParham says:

          🤣🤣

  4. SParham says:

    Sweetest Perfection
    Enjoy the Silence in the latest Depeche Mode tour. For your pleasure: https://youtu.be/-_3dc6X-Iwo

    Very nice! I’d love to see them live.They were one of my favorite bands back when I was cool. I still love them. They just get better with age. 🤗

    1. Sweetest Perfection says:

      Yessss!!! Another devotee! Welcome to the club, SParham!!!

      1. Another Cat says:

        This is a bit of how I started to read HG Tudor’s.

        “Oh, somebody my age? Personal Jesus, Try walking in my shoes, yes yes, DM are rather artistic aren’t they… Hm. The cellos in One Caress. And that bluesish Martin Gore guitar in ‘Corrupt’. Lovely” I’m a sound geek.

        Initially I got the impression that most blogpost title’s here were from DM or Eurythmics.

        Through entertainment I came across a world of knowledge which changed my life.

    2. A Victor says:

      Thanks for sharing the link SParham, I’d forgotten how much I enjoyed them also, as you say, back when I was cool. Great song.

  5. NarcAngel says:

    IF
    – Rudyard Kipling

  6. Another Cat says:

    A huge problem in extreme wokeism (many narc debaters) is this:

    It will work against the Left and against Social Justice goals.

    Who has the required time and peace in mind to plan and phrase all their words correctly?

    Hint:
    Not the people who work in sweatshops, physical labour, cleaning jobs, stressful demanding nurse jobs, busdrivers.

    They will be the ones who are often cancelled, by richer higher echelon individuals.

    1. WhoCares says:

      Another Cat,

      “Who has the required time and peace in mind to plan and phrase all their words correctly?”

      I agree with your post. It is really only the Empath who will twist themselves inside out in order to not step wrong or to not be viewed as offensive or politically incorrect.

      I have had work contracts with a local organization that provides support and outreach to local marginalized populations (First Nations people, LGBTQ, sex workers, homeless individuals, etc.). Several of the organization’s staff and/or participants indentify as transgender or non-binary. Which is fine, however, I recall one particular project and how the awkwardness of not stepping wrong nearly overshadowed the ‘inclusivity’ of the actual goal.
      There was one young participant who, visually, didn’t fit a stereotypical male or female appearance – and who, initially identified as female, but then as the project proceeded would, eventually, identify as something else (with a new pronoun and first name to remember). You could argue that this individual was simply young and struggling with identity issues – but I always had the feeling of being stressed out about not saying anything wrong or addressing someone in an offensive way. I remember talking aside to the project co-ordinator as the outset of each week to first identify “who” the individual was that week (hoping the coordinator had some inside information!). The third week I was told “Just use ‘they’, to be safe.” This feeling of ‘walking on eggshells’ over correct pronoun usage detracted from including everyone’s “perspective” in the group project.

      Conversely, an empath would have the understanding that the value of acceptance and tolerance is key – and would quietly educate people but wouldn’t want to inconvenience anyone unnecessarily or make them feel perpetually uneasy about who “they” identified as from week to week.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        Who has the time is right. I’m tired of words being owned and claimed by individual groups. Not even everyone in those groups agree on the terminology. I see words as vehicles of expression and freedom, and while I recognize there may be varying repercussion at times (depending on the majority social climate of the moment) for using some of them, I can only commit to not causing intentional harm with the words that I use and facts that I possess and subscribe to at any given time. It seems to me there are just as many people looking to be offended as there are those accused of being offenders. The uproar over the use of certain words and labels is a lot of noise and distraction that at best only changes the colour and density of the crust, but does not change the molten contents of the pie underneath. If you stick a finger through that decorative and protective crust you will find it still burns.

        1. WhoCares says:

          NA,

          It also just contributes to just another *different* climate of us vs. them – as in, if you aren’t open to it, can’t grasp it, or implement it appropriately, then you aren’t in the *in* group – you’re in the *out* group. It’s a great way for Mid-ranger to create a facade of window-dressing in brandishing those terms and pointing fingers at others for not being accepting of them.

      2. Another Cat says:

        Sounds wise, WhoCares. Of course, as you are working with these delicate issues, and therefore observe ironies and contradictions way before others, I couldn’t help feeling some empathy even with this young person you are describing. They danced you and your collegues around with their new identities. Maybe a young narc struggling with his/her subconscious need to control your feelings. Young narcs will take up everyone else’s space with their own
        feelings. Glad to hear you were relieved from this pronoun problem, WhoCares. It seems ‘they’ solves some immediate timewasting issues, at least.

        1. WhoCares says:

          AC,

          The work contracts were a while ago, I don’t work with that organization as this time. Although I really enjoyed working on those groups projects.
          Personally, I just don’t care what someone identifies as, what they wear, how they choose to adorn themselves, or who they love – to each his own, truly – and I really enjoy working on a creative collaboration towards a common goal with creatively motivated people (from whatever background). In my experience, the final outcome has always been pretty amazing – when the participants were really committed.
          And you could say that whatever discomfort I felt over that particular individual’s pronoun switches (3 times over the course of a short term project) is a small discomfort, considering the historical discrimination and mistreatment of such individuals – but it really does *sometimes* smack of specialized treatment under the guise of asking others to extend their understanding and empathy.

          “Glad to hear you were relieved from this pronoun problem, WhoCares. It seems ‘they’ solves some immediate timewasting issues, at least.”
          Yes, it was solved. The project coordinator (who is now the creative director of that organization) is a very understanding, easy-going empath who recognized my concern over not stepping wrong (and shook her head as well over not really knowing how to address the other individual) and offered the best solution in the moment.

    2. Another Cat says:

      (part 2)

      I have noticed this in online feminism forums, especially on Facebook.

      Often a new female poster, maybe a teenage girl, will be yelled at in the comments (by transwomen and other women, and if male members are allowed, by them too) for not using the correct words when she is telling the group about an experience of discrimination.

      Hm. Women getting picked on in feminism forums.

      A new polite female getting picked on and ‘splained by a group. Just like normal power structures out there in the real world.

  7. leelasfuelstinks says:

    Guys, just get the message: Narcs are EVERYWHERE, no matter if communist, capitalist, a mish-mash of both, right wing, left wing, in the middle. No matter if Christian values, Jewish values, left values: There are people who use and abuse those values for their own purposes of power, money and control. There are narcs and psychopaths who manipulate the people using those values, no matter whether it´s free markets, environmental protection or social justice. They are everywhere and the message is that the left wing as well as the right wing should be AWARE of being manipulated. No matter what: Don´t be sheeps! Think for yourself, think critically, no matter where you stand. H.G. wants to point out that also behind empathic values there are narcs and psychopaths who just use them for their own purposes of control, power and money! Just get the message!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Correct.

      1. DL says:

        This world is repeating the destructive pattern of the ultimate
        rise of the super predator narcissist psychopaths, this time AI assisted and to lemming and of entire species as Escape to Mars is a pipe
        dream. The bell curve is too nose down. Please discuss/ incorporate Robert Cialdini case studies, and the Berkley “Monopoly” case studies to make relevant to themselves? Is there an optimal social politicalsystem that will protect humanity from , instead of vastly reward and empower the super psychopaths, (as does the only ostensibly free democratic capitalism, same as the overtly controlled Chinese/ Russian capitalism)? Chilling how via simple marketing tools such as Priming, and contextual set ups that mirror this very ‘rigged by powerful oligarchical plutocracy ‘global economic system, it has been repeatedly demonstrated that a “normal” can be entirely flipped, sometimes permanently, to psychopathy, much as artfully portrayed by the AgentSmith character in the Matrix3? Wouldn’t it be the most fascinating plot twist and legacy, as here just mentioned that is there goal, legacy, for the Neo character to turn out to not be an empath but be someone just like HG or HG himself?

        1. Asp Emp says:

          DL, reading your comment was interesting – from a different perspective. In some way, when it comes to educating about narcissism, in my view, using some films and some scenes can give ‘visual’ learning – using them as examples (even true story films / documentaries). Some people learn by watching, rather than listening, or doing. Some films / scenes can assist with ‘lateral’ thinking approaches.

          Who knows? There could be a film about HG in the future. Preferably factual / documentary, otherwise it would defeat the objective about educating on narcissism. Narc Tales would be good to watch too.

    2. DL says:

      Sorry if this is duplicate, but I didn’t see it post and i really would like to see ideas on how what u said could be brought into main stream awareness ASAP, because it’s maybe more “tipping point” urgent for humanity’s survival.
      The world has always had folks like H.G., but far as well know, never A.I. EMPOWERED with global market and soon “AI supremacy ” .
      Seriously…for “such a time as this” has never had such a bizarre spin as an H.G. needed to save 99%of humanity from a malthusian. 001%.

      This world is repeating the destructive pattern of the ultimate
      rise of the super predator narcissist psychopaths, this time AI assisted and to lemming and of entire species as Escape to Mars is a pipe
      dream. The bell curve is too nose down. Please discuss/ incorporate Robert Cialdini case studies, and the Berkley “Monopoly” case studies to make relevant to themselves? Is there an optimal social politicalsystem that will protect humanity from , instead of vastly reward and empower the super psychopaths, (as does the only ostensibly free democratic capitalism, same as the overtly controlled Chinese/ Russian capitalism)? Chilling how via simple marketing tools such as Priming, and contextual set ups that mirror this very ‘rigged by powerful oligarchical plutocracy ‘global economic system, it has been repeatedly demonstrated that a “normal” can be entirely flipped, sometimes permanently, to psychopathy, much as artfully portrayed by the AgentSmith character in the Matrix3? Wouldn’t it be the most fascinating plot twist and legacy, for the Neo character to be someone just like HG?

  8. Paul says:

    Hi HG,

    I admire your entrepreneurial spirit and think you have a successful business. Your business model is to regularly post free content on your blog to keep people engaged and hopefully purchase paid content from time to time. On reflection, from a business perspective, it doesn’t make sense to get involved in discussing politics. A lot of progressives view any criticism of their favoured response to an issue as an indication that the person making the criticism does not care about the issue. For example, criticism of Black Lives Matter the organisation would likely be viewed as disagreeing with the statement that black lives matter and see the person making the criticism being called a racist. That is illogical but that is the world we are living in.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I am not discussing politics. I am discussing narcissism´s manifestation in politics, there is a huge difference.

      1. Sweetest Perfection says:

        Hallelujah!

      2. Contagious says:

        My son is a Marine. They did a military drill that involved various weapons by the enemy. The leader asked the platoon what would be the best weapon to defeat them. Answers included “ rifles” “bombs” “fire blaster. My son was last. He answered “ his mind.” And he was nicknamed “ woke.” Lol

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Should have been called brains.

          1. Duchessbea says:

            Very much agree.

  9. ava101 says:

    OMG, HG, are you my new twin flame?

    You so speak out of my heart.

    Did you say 1 in 6??

    I so hate that word ‘woke’….
    … and now inclusive.

    I shut down my vegan meetup because of the people,… I kicked out a boy who drove me up the wall and wbo insisted on more ‘inclusiveness’ (of almost vegans, part time vegans, vegetarians, fish lovers …)… which I actually tried, though in irony, to my detriment. Then the next ‘digital nomad’ student tourist couple appeared to enjoy my free services as a vegan tourist guide (aka meetup), saying they became vegan for the environment…
    In short: spot on. Been dealing with lots of them lately, iincl the lying in my bed lying type. 1

  10. leelasfuelstinks says:

    Listened to it. How true! Unfortunately 🙁 They are really everywhere those narcs.

    1. Fiddleress says:

      Hi Leela,
      You wrote: “Sometimes it´s better NOT to discuss 😉 Waste of time and energy. We can use our energy for more constructive activities. ”
      I tend to think that discussion and action don’t go one without the other. I always find it great to have discussions, here or elsewhere, and here we *usually* manage somehow to remain civil at the very least, so the discussions are really important to either reinforce what we thought in thr fist place, or to “move” a bit! 😉

      1. leelasfuelstinks says:

        I do not discuss politics here. 🙂 It´s not the reason why I´m here. Prefer to discuss narcissistic abuse and working on my psychological waste 😉

  11. lickemtomorrow says:

    I saw a comment describing Meghan “and Mrs Markle” as the poster couple for ‘woke’, suggesting the phenonmenon is “an oozing, ugly mass of privileged whining, self-indulgence, arrogance, and hypocrisy” joined with a lack of empathy, and having a sense of entitlement which basically destroys anything and everything in its path through silencing and threats of vengeance. Woke is a tyranny, which overturns common values and looks like a witch hunt to anybody who bothers to cast a critical eye in its direction. Out of fear people ‘bend a knee’, and various corporations and government agencies defy their customers and the voters to pay its dues. Piers Morgan said what a lot of people are afraid to even contemplate – free speech is a hill worth dying on. Many will be foreced to die on that hill, or capitulate, because the wokerati are supposedly beyond criticism and have bound almost every organisation with the fear of their wrath. Oppose them at your peril. The wokerati of sweetness and light, inclusivity and ‘love’, are happy to hold a gun to your head if you don’t go along with their agenda. Some people will pull the trigger themselves. As many people have done as they self-flagellate about their ‘whiteness’. Victims abound. Accusations fly. Destruction is imminent. We can’t be this divided and survive as a society.

    1. Fiddleress says:

      Hi LET!
      What you wrote: “Out of fear people ‘bend a knee’”, reminded me of a quote in a book I read years ago when I first thought that my mother must be a narcissist; I reckon it applies to being around any narcissist, not just a parental one, and around Woke people (or any tyrant) too:
      “Growing up with a parent who is a narcissist is like having a gun pointing at your back, and you keep smiling in the hope that it will prevent the narcissist holding the gun from pulling the trigger.”
      It fits the narcissist nature of tyrannical ideologies.

      I recently came across a video on YouTube of a young black South-African lady who explained that she had recently left the Woke movement and felt like she had just escaped from a sect; she described how paranoid she had become whilst endorsing that ideology (she could see “micro-aggressions” everywhere like she had been taught to see them, and now thought it was really paranoia).
      What she described sounded so much like the Narcissist’s paranoia!

      1. lickemtomorrow says:

        Fiddleress, thank you for your comment. It relates to what I said and also to narcissism and the notion of control. In the current environment there is a sense you dare not say or do the ‘wrong’ thing for fear that trigger will be pulled. We see it happening everywhere with people losing everything as a consequence at times, and many feeling strait jacketed because of it. I was interested to read your comment about the South African woman and the paranoia she experienced associated with the notion of “micro-aggressions”. The reason it was so interesting being she was the one experiencing the paranoia as well, not just the people who could be accused of said “micro-aggression”. That one is a two way street.

        The first time it came to my attention was a couple of years ago as part of a conversation where it was suggested that to point out to a male nurse that there weren’t many male nurses was a form of micro-aggression. My response was BS. Male nurses are far outnumbered by female nurses and it is a comment on a factual state of affairs. The comment could be made admiringly, but the assumption is it is made disparagingly and on that basis could cause offence. What? If someone is offended by an innocent comment such as that they are in serious trouble of not being able to survive in a world that requires us all to be robust and also able to defend ourselves.

        I don’t put a watch on your speech to defend myself. If you say something offensive to me I will make it clear in some way, shape or form that I am offended. And a simple apology should suffice if necessary. I will not put a watch on my speech in order not to offend. Partly because what might be offensive to one person is not offensive to another. My suggestion to those fearful of being offended would be to learn to be assertive. And expect to be offended every now and again. No one gave you the right to exist and never be offended. That is where a sense of entitlement comes in for me. How entitled do you have to be to think you should never be offended? As if you also are not capable of offending. We all are. Controlling speech, changing language, creating a climate of fear has all the hallmarks of narcissism and the tyranny it can bring to ideologies as far as I’m concerned.

        I read a rather amusing comment from actor Sean Penn who no one, I assume, could accuse of being right leaning. But he appears to have a sense things are going too far by blasting woke/cancel culture and saying “you wonder at some point if only Danish princes can play Hamlet.” Penn called the current trend “ludicrous” and “Soviet”-like. And yes, that would likely be a nod to Communism and its restrictive norms.

        1. Fiddleress says:

          LET, thank you for your response, and I agree with what you wrote. I understand the “Soviet-like” comment, although to me it still isn’t what Communism is or should be about. But yes there was a big element of mental straight-jacketing in Communism as implemented in the USSR, like in all tyrannies.

          As an echo to what Sean Penn said: did you hear that the Dutch poetess who had been chosen to translate Amanda Gorman’s text (the black lady who spoke when Biden took office) was criticised for not being black, and therefore not fit to translate the original text because she could not understand what black people had experienced? If I understood correctly. This shows crass ignorance of what translation is all about, and of what simply writing is about. And acting, of course.
          It does sound like narcissism: having everyone believe that nobody can put themselves in the shoes of an other human being (this is what narcex kept saying, that nobody could understand him), or simply imagine, because writing is art, fiction, how it may feel like.

          I agree so much with what you said about being offended! I come from a region that was deemed backwards until recently by the rest of the country, and my gosh did I hear comments that could be deemed offensive because of that. I did let those people know what I thought of them for thinking like that, but the truth is I wasn’t even really offended, I just found them downright stupid.
          I also experienced the scorn from the upper-class kids towards me because of my social background, in the secondary school I went to (which was not where I was supposed to go given where I lived, but I was allowed to go there because of a new language I wanted to take up which was on offer only there). That just gave me the urge to show them that I could do at least as well as they could (because I wanted to, not only as a reaction to them. At the time, free public education here could really work for all if you put the effort in).

          The young South-African also said something interesting, something I have heard HG say: most people simply don’t stop and think about you, so they aren’t out to offend you all the time; seeing micro-aggressions everywhere is a form of paranoia and/or inflated sense of self-importance. It could also be due to self-doubt, hence your comment about needing to assert ourselves.

          I’ll just give an example of what I have experienced, just to illustrate and maybe others can relate: as soon as I began to think politically at age 15, I set about countering racist and homophobic views whenever I could, to the point of falling out with an uncle of mine.
          Then one day, as a young teacher outside Paris, a pupil called me racist for not giving him a pass at a test. My jaw dropped, and I explained that on the contrary, I viewed him as one pupil among others, and on an equal footing with the others. He was forcing me to see him as a child of immigrants from a different country (which had never been anyone’s colony, btw), whereas I was super happy to be able to give all those kids, who all came from disadvantaged backgrounds no matter what skin colour they were, the very thing I had been given and which I cherished: education. That comment was very new at the time, but it is commonplace now.

          In this country, we have a (small and thankfully still insignificant) political organisation headed by a lady who has written a book entitled: “The Whites, the Jews, and Us” (by “us” she means black people and North-Africans). The title says it all, and it so much goes against what this country should be about; and I agree that work remains to be done, but pitting people against each other because of their colour hides the very real problem: the exploitation of some people by others, whatever colour or sexual orientation they are.
          The woman who wrote that book went as far as to state in it that a black woman who gets raped by a black man should not report him as this would amount to a betrayal of her “race”.
          I rest my case.

          Sorry this was a bit long, but I do see more and more the narcissism in the Woke thing. And it is very interesting.

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            Yes, Fiddleress, to everything you said.

            I hadn’t heard about the Dutch poetess, but that is also very interesting and to me shows the extremes this is being take to across the world. There was a writer I remember causing a stir a few years ago in relation to a similar issue, and what makes her case so interesting is she is transgender so has a unique perspective on how political correctness is playing out in the literary world. She gave an unannounced speech at the Brisbane Writer’s Festival in Australia titled: Fiction and Identity Politics (when she was supposed to be talking about community). Her name is Lionel Shriver and she wrote, amongst other things, “We Need To Talk About Kevin”.

            In response to the issue of approriating other people’s experiences, and that novel in particular, she said “I’m hoping that crime writers, for example, don’t all have personal experience of committing murder. Me, I’ve depicted a high school killing spree, and I hate to break it to you: I’ve never shot fatal arrows through seven kids, a teacher, and a cafeteria worker, either. We make things up, we chance our arms, sometimes we do a little research, but in the end it’s still about what we can get away with – what we can put over on our readers.

            Because the ultimate endpoint of keeping out mitts off experience that doesn’t belong to us is that there is no fiction. Someone like me only permits herself to write from the perspective of a straight white female born in North Carolina, closing on sixty, able-bodied but with bad knees, skint for years but finally able to buy the odd new shirt. All that’s left is memoir.

            And here’s the bugbear, here’s where we really can’t win. At the same time that we’re to write about only the few toys that landed in our playpen, we’re also upbraided for failing to portray in our fiction a population that is sufficiently various.

            I’m hoping that crime writers, for example, don’t all have personal experience of committing murder.

            My most recent novel The Mandibles was taken to task by one reviewer for addressing an America that is “straight and white”. It happens that this is a multigenerational family saga – about a white family. I wasn’t instinctively inclined to insert a transvestite or bisexual, with issues that might distract from my central subject matter of apocalyptic economics. Yet the implication of this criticism is that we novelists need to plug in representatives of a variety of groups in our cast of characters, as if filling out the entering class of freshmen at a university with strict diversity requirements.

            You do indeed see just this brand of tokenism in television. There was a point in the latter 1990s at which suddenly every sitcom and drama in sight had to have a gay or lesbian character or couple. That was good news as a voucher of the success of the gay rights movement, but it still grew a bit tiresome: look at us, our show is so hip, one of the characters is homosexual!

            We’re now going through the same fashionable exercise in relation to the transgender characters in series like Transparent and Orange is the New Black.

            Fine. But I still would like to reserve the right as a novelist to use only the characters that pertain to my story.”

            It’s a great speech and the full article can be found here:

            https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/13/lionel-shrivers-full-speech-i-hope-the-concept-of-cultural-appropriation-is-a-passing-fad

            I was also somewhat of a misfit in my school, so I can relate to your experience there, too, Fiddleress <3

            And I appreciate you sharing the experience you had as a young teacher. As you say, such experiences have now become commonplace where the push is to see people by their various intersectional identities. Where did equality go? And how did the notion of equity replace it? Many people won't realize the difference between those two words and what they really signify. I'm on board with equality of opportunity. I'm not on board with equality of outcome (equity) which is really just a socially engineered proposal to ensure that merit is no longer the basis for success. Much like your student, in an equitable society expectations would be lowered for him in order to succeed. He was basically telling you all the reasons he should be given that leeway. Which adds up to he was disadvantaged due to his circumstances and as part of a minority grouping. There is obviously a lot to be understood around these different ideologies, and while some can sound good on paper, in reality they may not work as well in practice.

            I see you have rested your case with that last story, and I can see why. Identity groupings are robbing us of our common humanity, and on that basis the identity we all share. I know not everyone here agrees, but you have stated the case for my position quite clearly. Really appreciate you sharing your thoughts on that xox

          2. Fiddleress says:

            Oh I love what Lionel Shriver writes! I’ve read “We Need To Talk Abut Kevin”, and I still have to read “Big Brother” by her. I didn’t realise she was transgender, this is interesting – not least because I felt there was definitely a “masculine” quality to her writing. Thank you for the link to the article, I am going to read this! And yes, the example of crime writers is spot on.

            I agree that we both have a lot of similar views on the topic. And it is always interesting to read others’ views too, on any topic for that matter. I enjoy these discussions. XX

          3. lickemtomorrow says:

            I have to review my comment on Lionel Shriver being transgender, only because it appears she changed her name based on the fact she didn’t like the name she had been given and as a ‘tomboy’ felt a conventially male name more convenient. I seem to remember at the time she gave the talk a big deal was made of her ‘identity’, but either the whole thing has been backtracked or I misread it from the start. Either way, apologies for any confusion, and it seems she did identify as a ‘tomboy’ at some stage prompting the changing of her name. Interesting you also noted a definite ‘masculine’ quality to her writing. Looking her up again today has made me realize she continues to be controversial in the current climate, so I’m going to have to read up some more.

            I am also enjoying our discussion here, though it can be challenging at times. It’s easy to see how the empath’s desire for good can be drawn in many different directions and also influenced by our experiences. We’re not all cut from the same cloth, and that may both surprise us and cause consternation at times. As empaths we expect to all get along! So SP’s comment on us being a minority of the population, and also with the focus on minorities here, it is obvious that we can keep breaking things down ad infinitum, but I’m not sure we would end up any better off. We have too many competing influences and in some places we will fall together and in other places not so much.

            Having said that, I am appreciating the fact we share similar views on this topic xox

          4. Fiddleress says:

            No worries, maybe I was confused because I keep forgetting that being transgender does not necessarily mean the person has actually transitioned to the other sex in the physical sense (unless I am mistaken on this, I must say I am not keeping up with all the new possibilities arising). Very interesting anyway, if she has been, biologically, female since birth, I can understand why she felt like a tomboy.

            I feel I have said too much today already, so I will keep this post short.

            Very good to read your comments, LET, I greatly enjoy them (so please do keep writing if you wish, I am just going to only read others’ comments for a little while. A few minutes, at least, haha!).

          5. A Victor says:

            LET, one of the things with the woke movement that I have not been aware of with other similar movements is the changing of the definitions of words, in the dictionary. I have been aware for years that definitions are updated to fit the current terminology but never before the current worldview of those in power, and those are two different things. There are times when it is appropriate and necessary to go back to the original meaning of a word, which will often take you to the point of origin of that word. And where prefixes, suffixes etc are concerned, the same diligence must be applied in order to obtain accurate understanding. But what I am seeing now is outright changing, to fit the narrative that is being pushed. And then the alteration of history as needed to render former meaning and/or understanding obsolete. It is dangerous as it is intended to present only what the originators of an agenda desire for us to see and know. Thank you for your comments on this thread, you, SP and Fiddleress have really made it interesting!

          6. HG Tudor says:

            It´s a beautiful thing, the destruction of words.

          7. A Victor says:

            Spoken like a true narcissist. 🙂

          8. lickemtomorrow says:

            🙁 Only from a narcissistic perspective. And you use them so beautifully, HG.

            Do you have no appreciation of words, the same as you are unable to appreciate music except to use it as a means to manipulate? That would be a new understanding for me if you said ‘yes’. It would mean words are only utilized by you for what you can obtain from them, and not because they can actually reach the depths of one’s soul. But, then again, you say you don’t have a soul. This is causing me a great deal of consternation to think about today. I think you can destroy with words, but can you ever really destroy words? You may be able to destroy language, which then results in destroying culture. And maybe that is what is happening. Language gives voice to culture.

            Maybe I just need to stop talking in this thread … give my head a rest 😛

          9. HG Tudor says:

            It’s a quote from 1984.

          10. lickemtomorrow says:

            No way! And I just commented somewhere else about 1984 😛

            Back to the drawing board for me.

          11. lickemtomorrow says:

            Oh, haha, I see my comment just below this one. LOL. I think I need a break 😉

          12. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I prefer the deconstruction.

          13. lickemtomorrow says:

            Do you mean the desconstruction of words and language?

            Interesting, SP. How destruction to some is deconstruction to others.

            It’s like “smash heterosexism” I guess that’s just an overenthusiastic deconstructionist?

            I know I still have to respond to your further comment on that, so I will take a look for it now.

          14. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, thanks for adding your thoughts around that, too <3 Everything has become politicized, including words and language. It's like a minefield, walking through it, and a few people have been blown to smithereens in the process. It's very disconcerting. Not only is language being messed with in this manner, but name changing is also a thing. The names of products, places, streets, high schools, mascots, etc. There is a massive purge going on of anything believed to be tainted by political incorrectness. Some people will see the value in this. Many others will take a quote from George Orwell's 1984 to state their case against it. I can't help but see the narcissist in this overarching need to control language as well as the narrative along with the purge which accompanies it. Most of the accusations of political incorrectness seem to originate with the 'woke' crowd. So when HG speaks of the current rise of narcissism on the left it seems these are the people responsible. I've no doubt they've hijacked various movements intended to be compassionate and more inclusive as a means of gaining control in the current circumstances. I'm not sure how we walk it back from there, but at least we can recognize where it is coming from and on that basis have some idea how to deal with it. Even if it's to walk away from organizations which have ultimately taken on a cult-like status and we discover are damaging to us and those we interact with, like the woman Fiddleress described.

          15. A Victor says:

            LET, much of this is very Orwellian…!

            I need to reread 1984 apparently, I haven’t read it since high school.

          16. lickemtomorrow says:

            I’ve seen multiple comparisons of the current situation to 1984 and I believe they are completely on the mark. I have no qualms in saying that. I thought HG was expressing his own thought there, so totally missed the mark there, but I had seen the play performed a couple of years ago when it was doing the rounds and the story is confrontational in whatever format you experience it. The quotes are dead on for what is happening and I did pick up a copy of the book again more recently. Unfortunately it was not one we were made to study in school, although The Crucible might also be a fitting narrative to accompany the woke witch hunt. I would definitely put 1984 on the reading list of every school now.

          17. A Victor says:

            Good points, PC has gotten way out of control, though likely not out of some narcissist’s control. They are using it as a method of control. Haha, all that control made me giggle.

            I apologize for joining the conversation late and adding a lot in a lot of places. I had been wishing I’d been more aware of the thread earlier but I wasn’t getting notifications as normal for a period and so didn’t realize anything was happening here.

          18. lickemtomorrow says:

            Very happy you have joined in, AV.

          19. A Victor says:

            LET, to clarify upon rereading this comment, I added a lot of words in a lot of places, haha, not necessarily a lot of anything else. But, I so appreciate the opportunity to put more of my thoughts somewhere, who knew I even had that desire? I live in my head a lot so it is nice to share some of what rattles around up there sometimes. Thanks for reading and responding. 💗

          20. Fiddleress says:

            I have just read the speech Lionel Shriver gave: I loved it! Thanks again for this.
            It actually made me think that speaking a different language is a form of cultural appropriation; people often tell me that I do not have exactly the same voice when I speak English and when I speak French, and I know for a fact that I don’t express myself in the same way in English because of the constraints of the language – there is a far wider use of the passive voice in English for instance, and the accuracy of English vocabulary allows for more nuances as well as more ‘down-to-earth’ and probably less open-to-interpretation and confusing expression. It has led me in return to pay particular attention to precision in French too, a language that is not as straightforward as English, I find.
            I do feel less French, in a word, when I speak or write in English, and French friends have commented on the fact that there is a slightly ‘strange’ or ‘foreign’ element in me – and I think it is definitely down to having used an other language for so long (and to living in the UK for a few years). The English way of thinking induced by the English language has seeped into my genral way of being, just as having French as a native tongue and having lived here most of my life certainly stops me passing for a native in the UK as far as my character goes too, so that I am not totally one stereotype or the other.
            Certainly far removed from the “Allo-Allo” series that I used to watch in Britain, and which did not even offend me!

          21. lickemtomorrow says:

            It was marvellous to read your thoughts here again, Fiddleress <3

            I was just expressing a thought to HG which may have some overtones of what you have said here. Language is very influential in culture and your use of English seems to have also influenced you in some ways culturally. Please correct me if I have read that wrong. You also seem to have a strong identification with Britain which makes me wonder is that through language, or if your interest came before learning the language? Either way, language is often how we identify with a place and people. It's also how we fit in or don't fit in. And you've probably clarified that with saying you are not totally one stereotype or another. Stereotypes can be great for the purposes of humour, but not necessarily ideal in the context of the real world and all the nuances that exist there <3

          22. Fiddleress says:

            Thank you, LET, that is so lovely of you to say what you said!
            You read me correctly, I believe that English has influenced me culturally, and also, importantly, it has influenced my way of experiencing the world, making my French outlook less so.
            I am a great believer in the fact that the words and grammar that you use shape your way of apprehending the world, and the place where you live does too. Both need to combine for maximum effect.

            As for my interest in English, ready for a little laugh? (I think I wrote about this before you arrived on the blog, but I can’t remember on what thread, so my apologies for the repeat.) An uncle of mine went to live in the USA when he was young. The first time I saw him, he came over with his children. His son was 12 and I was 10, and neither of us could speak the other’s language. We still got on really well throughout the summer. In fact, I fell “in love” with him and decided to learn English so that I could go and live in the States and marry him (cringe, cringe!). I started learning English in Junior High a year later and there I fell in love with the language (maybe still because of my cousin too). I am ashamed to say that I have never been to America. I went to England at age 13 with the school, and it was just magical: as soon as I set foot in England, it felt as if I was coming home (I know it sounds weird, but to me it felt very real).
            Later, I lived in England first, then in Scotland for longer than in England; but although I love Scotland, I never felt the same as in England. So yes, I identify strongly with Britain, and to be precise, more with England. But I still have friends in Scotland (one of whom is Belgian-American) and not in England.

            I enjoy being a hybrid of sorts. It means I will soon take a step aside (when ET is not too high!), whatever or whoever I am dealing with (political thinking, cultural values, narcissists in my life…). Even as an empath, I am a perfect hybrid, haha!

            I have not always liked it, but now I do like never being completely this or that or the other. Now I like the idea that I belong to nothing and to nobody (except to HG from his perspective, and I can’t and won’t go against it!).
            I don’t think side-stepping is about being wishy-washy (I don’t think I am) but about always keeping an eye on the exit if I feel trapped or hindered in any way. I wonder if this “I’m not here” or “I’m neither here nor there” feeling/attitude, is the key to understanding why I have been able to escape/distance myself from every single narcissist in my life. Finding HG has quite literally saved my life, helped me remain sane and see a way forward in life, but I have always come to a point when I escaped from the narcissists I knew before (and boy, there have been quite a few of them!).

            Damn, this was a self-centred piece, so I will stop here.

            I agree with what you said about stereotypes. The “Allô Allô” series also made fun of the British stereotypes towards the French and the Germans, so I guess that is why I found it amusing! I just love the British (well, English, really) capacity to make fun of themselves. Something else I have adopted, which usually appalls French people who tell me I shouldn’t mock myself as there will always be enough people to do it for me. Bloody Romans (err, French), no sense of humour, haha!

          23. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hi Fiddleress, so happy to hear I read you correctly <3 I appreciate you confirming that.

            Awww … that is a lovely story about your cousin <3 Childish crush which no doubt we've all experienced x I'm sure it was a great fascination to you when you met. And isn't it wonderful how it is possible to get along as children without necessarily understanding one another? It sounds like that opened the doors for you to learn English and eventually expand your horizons. To have felt so comfortable when first setting foot in England I think is something we have talked about here before, and something I understand. It's strange how a sense of belonging can present itself without explanation. But it's one of the best feelings in the world, and even better you eventually took the time and opportunity to experience it 🙂

            Interesting what you say about being a "hybrid" as well, which enables you to more easily take a step back from things. Obviously this has served you well in terms of any narcissistic entanglements, which I am glad to hear, but it can serve us in lots of different ways. Just to separate it from the sense of belonging already spoken of, it sounds to me more like a means to have the freedom to commit or not commit as you don't have a specific loyalty to one or the other. I see you have qualified that idea for HG 🙂 Life saver indeed <3

            Please don't call your piece 'self-centred'. It's wonderful to hear of your experiences and the things that go to make up who you are x We are influenced by so many things.
            It makes me wonder if your cousin had never apppeared, would you have ever taken English lessons and eventually ended up here?

            My French teacher wasn't French, but she certainly fit the free thinking and secular European lifestyle in many ways. Boy, was that an eye opener at the age of 17, when I had little experience of boys and attended an all girls Grammar school 😛 She booked us all in to see the Rocky Horror Show as part of a class excursion and my parent's allowed me to go! These days that might seem quite mundane. Then it was the height of mischief 😉

            Oops, maybe I was stereotyping there! But, we do need to have the ability to make fun of ourselves. I read another comment about the whole woke phenomenon – and I'm sure comedians would back me on this – about the fact it is a humourless, joyless, and sterile affair which keep us from laughing both at ourselves and others. I am interested to see your compatriots found that English tradition not to their liking, but it's likely the English would be the first to 'take the piss' out of themselves – as Monty Python has proved time and time again, as well as Black Adder (Rowan Atkinson) who has also spoken out against the political correctness of woke. But, bloody Romans, indeed 😛

          24. Sweetest Perfection says:

            “Many people won’t realize the difference between those two words and what they really signify.” Pick me! Pick me!! 🙋‍♀️

          25. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hahahaha 😛 I see you have your hand up, SP.

            Would you like to answer the question? 😉

          26. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Lickemtomorrow, Fiddleress, I am reading your exchange because this thread is growing so rapidly that I can’t follow up. I totally agree with you both on the two issues you brought up. “Then one day, as a young teacher outside Paris, a pupil called me racist for not giving him a pass at a test.” Unfortunately, it has happened to me too. To my advantage, the student was enrolled in an asynchronous course I taught online, therefore I never met with this person or saw the student. It was a failed attempt to blame shift academic failure. It doesn’t happen often, but I hate when people play the victim to take advantage of the system. About the mandatory diversification of art: it is so obvious that it is enforced in some cases that it’s not even appealing, lickemtomorrow, and yes you as a writer should pick whatever you feel like because it’s your own expression. Unless your work is commissioned… The fact that I tend to have a liberal mentality doesn’t mean I do not listen to other views or I don’t agree with them. It’s just my nature to lean towards progressive ideas and change. But I listen.

          27. lickemtomorrow says:

            Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences with us again, SP <3 x

          28. A Victor says:

            Great comment Fiddleress, I am so enjoying this whole thread! You touched on the reason I typically don’t share my opinions/views/thoughts etc. It comes down to education. If I share, I open the door to someone asking why? Then, very often, there is an extended “education” that I have to undertake for them to understand my thinking. When I have attempted to simplify I am met with challenge, a waste of time for both parties most likely and which can lead to the conflict that I am so opposed to. I am opposed to conflict because I dislike the way it makes me feel but even more importantly I find very often that when it goes that route, people stop hearing each other, hence the waste of time. So it has become a situation of discerning those times when it is beneficial to undertake the education process needed to convey my thoughts and really be understood, the goal not being to change anyone else’s mind, just to express why I believe as I do. It doesn’t happen often. I appreciated having 18 or more years with each of my children, for these thoughts to have time to be laid out and examined, along with opposing views so that my children were able to learn critical thinking skills and come to their own conclusions, while at the same time knowing where I stand and why. I do not feel it is my job to educate other people’s children, haha. But coming to an open and free discourse where there is not judgement, that is a truly wonderful thing and it does happen on occasion. And please understand, my children and I do not see eye to eye on a variety of topics, but we do respect that the other came to their own understanding in a thoughtful manner.

            Thank you for your thoughtful comments here, I have really enjoyed hearing a French perspective on the woke situation.

          29. Violetta says:

            HG:

            “It´s a beautiful thing, the destruction of words.”

            But Syme was unpersoned.

          30. A Victor says:

            Violetta, thank you. I had not connected the quote but it is absolutely fitting.

          31. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Fiddleress, I actually had an argument with some friends regarding the translator of Amanda Gorman. What the fucking fuck. A translator is a professional. You don’t dismiss a doctor because she or he is not your same ethnicity. If everyone had to be the same identify as the people they translate, you would never translate anyone because it is obvious you are transferring from a culture to a second one. That is simply stupid. Regarding Sean Penn, I am almost sure that motherfucker is a narcissist. He seduced Mexican actress Kate del Castillo and used her as a bait to take him to the secret location where infamous narco Chapo Guzman was hiding, so that he could interview him, allegedly for private reasons, then ended up releasing the whole thing. Not only did he lied to her and took advantage of her, but also put her at an extremely risky situation to be perceived as the mole that gave in El Chapo. Let’s remember Chapo Guzmán is one of the most dangerous traffickers of all time. Yes, why was she his friend is the right question to ask, but meanwhile, Sean Penn behaved like a treacherous snake.

          32. Sweetest Perfection says:

            For the record, none of my published translations have to do with who the fuck I am in real life, as I am not an abandoned woman from AngloSaxon times or an artist from a communist country. That thing infurates me.

          33. Violetta says:

            A Victor:

            If you want to see a film version, the ’80s one with Richard Burton is vastly superior to the ’50s one, although the earlier one did scare the shit out of me when I was a kid. The ’80s one even captures the dreary, run-down decrepitude of Oceania that Winston realizes conflicts with the gleaming, high-tech (yet agrarian) superpower depicted in Party propaganda.

          34. A Victor says:

            Thank you Violetta, I will be watching that tonight, with my son, he loves that stuff! We recently watched A Clockwork Orange, his first time. We had quite the conversation at the end, really interesting. Even the trailer for 1984 got me going, really looking forward to it.

          35. Witch says:

            @Fiddleress

            I felt the same way when I went to Paris… felt like I lived there in a past life lol

        2. Sweetest Perfection says:

          Speaking of language, thanks for reminding me of it lickemtomorrow, we do agree on this point as I don’t believe social change starts from linguistic enforcements, it should be the other way around. One super clear aspect of narcissists’ Woke “demonizing” attitude, quoting you in a previous comment, is the use of inclusive language which becomes more pervasive in Romance languages, where gender markers are evident. I see this as a very very very obnoxious practice. I’m very divided. But it’s so fucking obnoxious and in most cases people don’t even know how to do it and it results in risible and ridiculous failures, not to mention many times it goes against the principle of linguistic economy that is natural in most languages. In Spanish, Italian, French… it’s something that mostly public people like politicians try to impose to pretend to be inclusive while otherwise not changing any laws that would make society more just for all, such as harder punishments to perpetrators of sexual crimes. I wonder what Fiddleress thinks about this.

          1. Fiddleress says:

            SP, I agree one hundred per cent with you on the language thing! In French, it mostly makes for unreadable prose, promoted by people who only give lip service to the idea of making society a better place for all.

            It annoys me all the more as it also shows ignorance: French comes from Latin, and it just so happens that our masculine looked the same as the neutral form, so using the generic neutral form is not sexist – it is neutral for men too.

            And anyway, why are most words that refer to the ‘penis’, (both colloquial and standard) feminine in French? Why is ‘vagina’ masculine (or neutral), just like ‘uterus’? Where is the sexism there? But ‘might’ (as in ‘power’) is feminine!
            The only thing that changed on purpose was grammar, in the 17th century I think: adjectives used to take the gender of the last noun mentioned, so that even if you had a list a five masculine nouns, and the last one was feminine, the adjective would be feminine. Then the rule became “the masculine takes it all”. I wouldn’t mind going back to the old rule as it really is how our language evolved, and not an arbitrary decision.

          2. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I agree! I am currently positioned in a dilemma as I was asked to write a book chapter in a collaborative volume and I hope they don’t expect me to use that nonsense.

          3. Fiddleress says:

            What I do occasionally when I write articles or do non-fiction translations is write “La… ou le…” before the relevant noun if (and only if) it would otherwise lead to a confusion in French, but not with the .e.s , be it at the end of nouns or adjectives. Though when it was first made mandatory here last year, I felt I was required to do that otherwise I’d get complaints. I must have done it very briefly. Now I generally just add a footnote right at the beginning to explain that I will refer to this person in the feminine and to that person in the masculine for easier reading purposes, but that it can apply to both males and females, and basta!

          4. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Sigh! I hate the duplication, it’s so redundant! I’m actually gonna make the strongest effort to avoid any gender at all but feminine. Fuck that shit. I didn’t know it was made mandatory in France! The horror. The horror.

          5. Fiddleress says:

            That “inclusive” writing is officially mandatory in public services (such as our Education system) and all their publications.
            We received an email from the head where I teach last year telling us about it, and it started with: “Cher.e.s collègues”… What a start! The irony of it: by pretending to ‘include’ females, it had to do away with the very element that indicates the feminine: the accent on the ‘e’ as in “Chères collègues” ! Because indeed, “Chèr.e.s collègues” simply doesn’t work. What a load of BS. I have stopped bothering with that now, and I don’t give a fig if that offends anyone.

          6. lickemtomorrow says:

            Thank you for your comment, SP. I was very interested to read it and I also wondered what Fiddleress thought about this. I agree with you that there are much more important things to focus on when it comes to justice, and this type of ‘virtue signalling’ is not necessarily going to make the shifts in society that are actually required.

          7. Sweetest Perfection says:

            You said it right! It’s just a “signaling.” Form without true intention. “My words fly up, my heart remains below. Words without thought never to heaven go.” Or, as Depeche Mode would say…

        3. Sweetest Perfection says:

          Oops! I shouldn’t have mentioned Italy today!

        4. A Victor says:

          LET, your comment is interesting to me. The “My suggestion to those fearful of being offended would be to learn to be assertive.” part of your comment is the exact opposite of where I come from. It is a stretch for me to voice an opinion at all and when I do so I try to be so tactful that there is no way anyone would come back in a negative manner. On political blogs I have been involved with I am very forthcoming about my stance on the issues but do so in a way that even those who would be polar opposite in their views generally do not take offense. I have learned to do this in part because there can be no open, honest and real discourse without respect for each other as unique humans but also (my bigger goal if I’m honest) to minimize conflict as much as possible. Many times people don’t inquire why I believe as I do, but they know. And on those occasions where people do inquire, they do so in a similar, non-attacking manner. We can then hear each other better and form our own opinions without pressure, I am grateful to have been asked as often I will not share unless I am, and the other person is validated by being heard even where we still disagree at the end. But, my main point here was the idea that some are fearful of being offended and some of us are fearful of offending, and that the answer for both is the same, to learn to be assertive.

          If Sean Penn feels the woke/cancel culture has gone too far, we know it is way beyond too far. Haha. Good for him! Thank you for sharing that.

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            Another intelligent and uplifting comment. Thanks for sharing those thoughts, AV.

            I probably set an expectation around assertiveness due to my own approach. No doubt that is off putting to some people. But I also try to couch things so that it’s not all bad news at times! I really do enjoy hearing other people’s perspectives, which won’t necessarily change my own, but if we can nut it out in a civlized fashion, I’m more than happy to do that. I will always assume there are a variety of opinions, but unless they are shared we will never know. And it’s very easy for us to believe either we are right and there is only one opinion when no others are ever shared. Or, we could feel very isolated in never hearing an opinion expressed that equates with our own, when in actual fact there exists a silent majority.

            I think on the offense front your answer is perfect.

            And lol to it being way beyond too far when it comes to Sean Penn 😛

          2. A Victor says:

            LET, I have never found you off putting. I have been impressed however, you have an assertive streak I had not seen before. I find it encouraging. As I do with others who voice their opinions, as several here have done. It is all good. This is not a venue for politics, in my mind, but it is also not a place to shy away from standing up for what one believes if they see a need to. Or have a desire to. When I go to the political forums, I know what is there and I know how I will deal with it. It is not a place where I am actively learning, as I am here, but more a place where people exchange their viewpoints. I might learn something, but that is not the primary goal. So it is good to see those exchanges done in a different kind of place, it is just more learning here.

          3. lickemtomorrow says:

            Thank you, AV 🙂 I think some of the subject matter has me fired up in the circumstances, and I also feel HG has given us a space to voice our opinions if we wish to do so. I stood back at first due to the fact it did involve politics in relation to narcissism, and like some others who have already commented, I try to keep it strictly to the subject matter here. That’s hard to do when the two inevitably cross paths. The element of empaths beings duped by narcissists (“you have been conned”) seems to exist in every realm. It can be hard to acknowledge, but HG is pretty even handed when it comes to exposing the narcissist in whatever realm they might be.

          4. NarcAngel says:

            LET
            FWIW, I have found your approach assertive but not off putting at all. Although, I recall you mentioning previously that a robust exchange can get you a bit hot and bothered and here you use the phrase “nut it out”, so I’m forewarned – .it could get errr…..passionate haha.

          5. lickemtomorrow says:

            Haha, NA, thanks for saying so, and I just said it again … “the subject matter has me fired up” 😛 And when it comes to nutting things out, we have to crack those nuts to get to what we want, so getting passionate is not out of the question … some nuts can be really hard to crack! I’m sure you’re up to whatever comes your way, though. And I’m enjoying reading everyone’s thoughts, including yours.

      2. A Victor says:

        What’s concerning is how many don’t see that there is a paranoia that can accompany this type of thinking. They instead dig their heels in and insist that all are against them. And it is in many areas that this can be seen, not only with the current Woke situation.

        Your quote is most apt.

  12. Paul says:

    Cool. I’m looking forward to further videos on this topic.

    Maybe you can also discuss Marxism / communism in this series or perhaps in another series.

    To my way of thinking, communism is just an elaborate bait and switch scam and not actually an economic system.

    Step 1: Convince people that there are systemic problems that require a collective approach to solve.
    Step 2: Use these so-called problems to justify seizing power and taking control of everything and every aspect of people’s lives in the name of using this control to solve the problem.
    Step 3: The identified problems are not real problems or are problems with no realistic solution. Forget about the original promise to solve any problems and instead use the system of control to regulate people’s thought and speech. (From your perspective, the actual goal of this system would presumably be satisfying the needs of narcissists. From my perspective, communism deliberately sets out to destroy truth and love so the actual goal of this system is to prohibit and/or pervert religion.)

    With social justice, the Marxist “problem” of economic justice is switched out and replaced with a variety of other systemic “problems” such as systemic racism, sexism, climate change etc. that can be used to justify the need for a system of total control.

    1. Asp Emp says:

      Paul, very interesting to read your comment. It does appear that there is not enough democracy in the world as a whole, never mind in it’s smaller ‘parts’. I recall saying to some guy who was posting leaflets about voting for this party (prior to local elections, coughing a bit, apologies for that 😉 )… I opened the front door and said loudly “More junk mail” and then he stops to speak to me (his ‘mate’ was standing further away)…..then he says summat about what he’s going to do for the “people” when he gets “voted”……I says, what’s the point in voting? No-one really gets listened to, no matter what the people say, we need this and that, yet none of the political parties actually seem to take it on board….they are the ones that “decide” – not the people .

      Another time, I said to a friend, that myself as a single individual would not get ‘heard’ so there was no point in making a ‘noise’ about it. I was referring to a lack of Law or Act for Deaf people and “services” in this country.

      It was invigorating to read your words, thank you for sharing it.

    2. Fiddleress says:

      Hello Paul

      I am no Communist but I am surprised to see what is now the second comment in a very short time about the Woke business in relation to Marxism or Communism; I don’t think Woke has anything to do with either.
      Marxism is a theory on the exploitation of the working classes by the classes that own the means of production, and yes it is about economics and how it could work differently.
      Wokeism is about navel-gazing and being too immature to let your ears hear or your eyes read of an opinion that differs ever so slightly from yours. (“You/yours” refers to “Woke people in general”.)
      Very different.

      In fact, in my country, the people who hold “Marxist” or economically leftist ideas cannot bear the Woke brigades because the latter are deemed to divert attention away from what really matters to the life of the majority (i.e, how to make ends meet every month), because of their petit-bourgeois intellectual wanking.

      By the way, “religion is the opium of the people” is only part of the sentence that Marx wrote about religion; OK, he didn’t advocate religion, but he explained that the exploited people have so little hope of a better life, they toil so hard and are so exhausted that they turn to religion to sustain them, therefore “religion is the opium of the people”: it was meant as an explanation more than as an indictment.
      Having said that, Stalin called the Orthodox Church to the rescue at some point when he feared his people might start wanting to rebel again, against their state of affairs which was neither better nor worse, broadly speaking, than before the Revolution.
      George Orwell’s “Animal Farm” shows how that Russian dictatorship was a lay version of the almighty reign of religion previously (and in neither was “love” or ‘truth” on a large scale to be found…).

      Sorry if this sounded like a lesson, but it is a topic that I am particularly interested in, and I am just very surprised to see that some people equate wokeism with Marxism or Communism. Woke definitely is the *new* left, one that tries to promote opinions that cost nothing in terms of spending money on sectors that desperately need it for the greater good, but then the new left is so far remote from what being left-wing meant that they should be ashamed of claiming that side of the political divide.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Well stated.

      2. Eliza-NoConspiracyButNoCoincidence says:

        I see “Woke-ism” as providing the Marxist/Communists a whole new crop of “Useful Idiots.”

        1. Fiddleress says:

          I suppose that what I’m about to write is twisting the phrase a bit, but it could be argued that narcissists have a whole crop of “useful idiots” (myself included): the empaths.
          At least the empaths who haven’t yet come across HG’s work. But we remain potential “useful idiots” where narcissists are concerned – if we let our guard down, that is.

          I guess that Woke ideologues are able to submit or rally to their cause some people who are very empathic, by making them feel guilty (whereas they’ve done nothing wrong personally). And here is one of the ways it ties in with narcissism.

      3. Sweetest Perfection says:

        I really wish people had better comprehension skills instead of jumping to conclusions and false syllogisms. HG never called out Marxism or Communism, and this is not a blog about politics, neither is this a post against the Left or pro-Right wing ideas. It is about narcissists. I refuse to discuss my political views and get into a pointless argument with some people here, just wanted to ask you to please focus on the relevant topic.

        1. Eliza says:

          The phenomenon of Woke-ism and it’s similarity with behavior within Marxist and Communist movements is an Extremely relevant topic for a discussion of a personality disorder that is centered on CONTROL. Breaking down history and analyzing the personalities of people in power from history is very interesting to me. The motivation of authorities trying to CONTROL mass populations is of Vital importance and interest. It transcends politics.

          1. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I think the same of right winged populists and fascist dictators. But I prefer to discuss this in other venues, because most people come here for advise after trauma, not to receive a lecture or to change their political ideology. As for intellectual conversation, I don’t need this blog for that. It is nice to have an intelligent exchange but not to the expense of offending 50% of the blog commenters assuming everyone is on the same page. I don’t like provocation, I don’t like exclusion, I don’t like being offensive to show off. I’m out of this thread.

          2. Witch says:

            There’s narcissists on all sides battling for control in which ever way is effective for them. Sometimes narcissists support ideas that are more in alignment with empathic humanist ideals as part of their facade.
            This is the reality we are living in and have always lived in.
            Sometimes a system isn’t inherently “bad” but becomes corrupted by imperfect human error and narcissism.
            I haven’t read the communist manifesto to be able to share whether or not I think it could work in practice, but it might hold certain views that I would agree with.

          3. Violetta says:

            There are and have always been self-righteous conservatives too. Woke just happens to be the loudest tune at the moment.

          4. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Woke is a construct made by bar manipulation and mocked by people whose interests are totally against any form of social equity, such as Mr. billionaire hypercapitalist Elon Musk.

        2. A Victor says:

          Hi SP, I also do not wish to get into political views here but I do find it informative as to how our world has been and continues to be shaped by narcissists. There is a balance, a line for me, at which point I bow out. Thank you for the reminder.

          1. Sweetest Perfection says:

            This is more important to me than all your blah blah blah. The Sanctuary, by HG Tudor. Enjoy: https://youtu.be/DnffC3RiwYU

          2. A Victor says:

            SP, have I offended you in some way?

          3. Sweetest Perfection says:

            No my love!!!! I immediately sent a clarification because I realized having replied below your comment it sounded like I was addressing you, but HG hasn’t approved it yet. Love you and sorry!

          4. A Victor says:

            SP, no problem, I am relieved! I didn’t think it was so, you had liked my comment. But HG teaches us to go to the evidence, so I was practicing what he preaches! 🙂 And now I won’t lay in bed tonight worrying and wondering! Thank you for the kind comment!

          5. Sweetest Perfection says:

            AV, if you had offended me -which you never did and doubt you ever will- I would let you know. I’m very straightforward. And please, do the same if I offend you. I never had any problem apologizing. Plus I’m like you, I can spend the whole night worrying about why someone wrote certain things to me. HG teaches us to go to the evidence but he also teaches us to control ET, and that we don’t learn easily hahaha.

          6. A Victor says:

            Haha, yeah, that “controlling ET” part, working on that! I appreciate knowing you would be direct, I will do the same, though I can’t imagine that you would ever offend me either. It helps so much knowing people motives, empaths do not seem to have bad ones, but rather we do actually care about each other, and other people. Which is why we are so appealing to the narcs I suppose! Thanks again SP! 💕

          7. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I didn’t mean “your” as in AV’s. Sorry for the potential confusion. Namaste all!

          8. Asp Emp says:

            AV, great comment – you’re right RE: politics & narcissism shaping people’s lives. Covid and the impact it’s had to date is a massive & typical example of how some politicians and their “decisions” have resulted in so many ‘errors’. Even now, scientists and doctors are still talking about some other medicines that have existed for some time and continue to ‘research’ other than the vaccines designed specifically. It’s flabbergasting. It will be interesting when the ‘investigations’ into the handling of the ‘crisis’ start….no doubt, that has been ‘deflected’ until later (yah, right!).

          9. A Victor says:

            Thanks Asp Emp, I am curious to see how the Covid situation plays out also. Even on a broader scale, narcissism and it’s reach into our lives is just enormous, it’s almost unbelievable. The way it has impacted our thinking starting at the most intimate relationships we have and branching out from there to the top of our political systems and all across the world, a finger, or a hand, in every pie. It is a fascinating study. When I look at it on the world level, it is almost fun to guess who is going to do what, where uneasy alliances will be made and which strategy will come out on top. I really enjoy watching it, from afar. Glad not to be too close up. But I am so thankful to have the knowledge from this place to pass on to my children so we can better understand what is happening and hopefully protect ourselves and others from it, when there is need to do so. And Covid is a part of this bigger picture, just not certain exactly how it fits yet, it will be interesting to watch indeed. I have some concern that it will be swept under the proverbial rug somehow. Things are so fast paced, we move on before there is any completion many times, just as narcissists do, they are the same at any level it seems.

          10. Asp Emp says:

            AV, as far as I understand, there will be a ‘public inquiry’ RE: Covid and the politics involved. A friend told me a month before the first Lockdown that it was going to be very bad. Apocalyptic, she said. Political leaders have a duty yet did not ‘act’ as per ‘advice’ given. The damage has been done, with serious repercussions. People died. Systems fkd up. Many more people with mental health ‘issues’ due to being forced to stay home (including being subject to abuse – ‘A Very Lockdown Narcissist’ was very informative, eye-opening). This is one massive ‘adverse’ affect of having narcissists as ‘rulers’ (decision makers). The World Health Organisation provided a report or two, interesting ‘outcomes’ (as usual!). I suppose we will never really know the Truth.

            At least I spent the time to learn about narcissism, well worth it.

          11. A Victor says:

            Hi Asp Emp, I hope you are correct, I would love to see a public inquiry RE Covid and the politics involved. I hope if it is done, it is thorough and complete. And I hope people at fault are held accountable, whoever they turn out to be. I don’t doubt that apocalyptic is the correct term, so many mental health and abuse issues because of the lockdowns. So many deaths because of mishandling. But I fear you are correct that we will never really know the truth. Narcissists are masters at rewriting history.

            I agree, it was actually a blessing for me in many ways, not the least of which was having the time to do a deep dive into a study of narcissism.

        3. Eliza-HeartPounding says:

          SP I rarely lose my composure but I have to admit your comment:
          “I really wish people had better reading comprehension skills …..” had me flushing.
          It was insulting and you successfully shut me up on this subject and I think Paul too. That is a shame. Isn’t HG the moderator of this discussion?

      4. Paul says:

        I agree with you that Marxism and Wokeism are different. Wokeism does address some real social problems. These problems do deserve some action, but my view of Wokeism is that Wokeism is framing and using these problems as a vehicle in its real goal of training people to think collectively.

        I am against Wokeism but that does not mean that I am for the problems it claims to be addressing.

        Marxism and Wokeism both involve victim and oppressor classes, both seek systemic change to end the oppression, both stress the need for people to learn to think collectively (Proletariat for communism and one human race/one planet/genderless for Wokeism) and both seek to regulate thought and speech.

        They are different in one regard. As Eliza-NoConspiracyButNoCoincidence stated, Wokeism is more about preparing people to accept need for a revolution (referred to euphamistically as systemic change) by convincing them of the existence of a range of systemic problems.

        I have said my piece. I don’t want to derail HG’s blog.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          This is a constructive and intelligent exchange, no derailing at all. I would much rather read this than a discussion about baking or interior design.

          1. WhoCares says:

            “This is a constructive and intelligent exchange, no derailing at all. I would much rather read this than a discussion about baking or interior design.”

            Glad you said that HG. This discussion is interesting.

          2. Paul says:

            In that case, I can elaborate on the Marxist claim that business owners are exploiting workers. Of course examples of exploitation can be found and there is definitely a case for government regulation to improve pay and conditions for workers. However, Marx suggests that business owners should get nothing because they contribute nothing.

            Marx’s labour theory of value claims that it the amount of labour supplied by workers that determines the value of the goods and services produced and owners contribute no labour so do not create any value. Co-operatives are legal so if Marx’s labour theory of value was correct, then co-operatives should be able to outcompete private businesses because not having to make a profit means that they can sell their products for a lower price or poach the workers of businesses by paying higher wages. If Marx was right then Marxists should easily be able to defeat capitalism simply by starting co-operatives that will put the capitalists out of business. However, this does not happen.

            The truth is that is a business is really an idea in the head of an entrepreneurial person. Not every person has an entrepreneurial spirit. Entrepreneurial people are people who understand the product and the market and also have the ability and drive to gather and direct the people and resources needed to turn the idea into reality. The owner actually creates the majority of the value of the business. People can be jealous of such people but they create great products and services and provide jobs for people. We are much better with them than without them.

            Seizing the means of production is not about improving the lives of workers. Seizing the means of production is really a way for the state (government in practice) to have people by the balls. People want a comfortable and secure life but if the government controls the means of production then it can deny these things to anyone who demonstrates that they don’t think or speak the way the government requires them. Controlling the means of production gives the government a massive carrot and stick it can use to control people’s thought and speech.

        2. Sweetest Perfection says:

          “I am against Wokeism but that does not mean that I am for the problems it claims to be addressing.” Wokeism is not a thing, being “woke” socially is. If anything, wokeism is a made up term, derogatory of course, created by conservatives and which, in this context, would be apt to refer to the narcissists that are taking advantage of the initiative to be aware of social inequalities to, instead, dismantle the genuine compromise with society and create a parody of it by means of control and oppression, mostly of speech. Ironically, one of the main concepts that is being battled which consists of normative impositions, ends up becoming normative through the application of “cancel culture” as is being known nowadays. Also ironically, most of that fakeness some people here have mentioned is caused by the consumerist misuse of these ideals for the exploitation by companies without any genuine moral intention. I understand people have different political views and I don’t pretend to change anyone’s opinion in a blog about narcissism. I refuse however to accept the false equation of “fake social fighters” as synonyms of all left thinkers, “idiots” as representing all progressive intellectuals, and “weirdos” as inclusive for all the people that do not identify as gender binary. And those are a few of the things I have been reading in the comments. This is mainly the reason why I called for a focus on narcissism, which was the theme of the video, instead of quickly jumping on the wagon of all left intellectual thinkers are idiots and disingenuous.

          1. Sweetest Perfection says:

            PS: I don’t know how to bake.

          2. Witch says:

            SP
            I didn’t get the impression that most people here think all liberals are weird and disingenuous. Although we have come across ones that are,
            who are likely narcissists as they exhibit the black and white thinking, with me or against me perspective.
            I’ve come across female narcissists in my line of work who have done a lot good for a lot of people, but they are still narcissists who have made the women working for them cry and end up needing therapy.
            A narcissist can take an empathic idea and create a tyranny out of it and this is what some people see happening on the left especially with how they use concepts of privilege to establish collective guilt for crimes not even committed in this century.
            I saw a video of a white mother saying she’s not going to comfort her 5 year old daughter when she’s crying because this is how white women learn to use their white tears manipulatively or some nonsense. And other strange videos of white people self flagellating for crimes they didn’t commit and saying they owe reparations.
            I saw this “white privilege” exercise done on school children in the UK with channel 4. You can find it on YouTube “heartbreaking moment when kids learn about white privilege.”
            One of the questions that were asked as proof of white privilege was “is your parents first language English?”
            So where does that leave white migrants who’s first language isn’t English? are they politically black now or what? Lol
            Anyways … I thought the experiment was quite thoughtless because a) it’s leading kids to hold a certain political view with no other alternative views being presented and b) I imagine the end result would be white kids feeling guilty for being white and brown kids resenting the white kids for being “privileged” and also thinking they can’t accomplish anything because they don’t have the “privilege” that white kids have from birth.
            I’m sure the parents had to give consent for the children to participate in that experiment. But no way would that be my child if I had one, I’m telling you

          3. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Witch, I agree with the first part of your comment. I don’t quite understand that experiment you are talking about. Who is carrying it out, on whom, and for what reason? Most of the arguments against critical race theory, for example, are unfounded and built on the lack of knowledge of what it actually is and the mythology about it that many white people make up. I agree with the narcissistic exploitation and manipulation of good intentions of those who like me, work for Social Justice and against many things which not only include antiracism but anti xenophobia (including anti aporaphobia which is the typical thing I have to hear once and again: “well WE do need immigrants like YOU yaba yaba doo” and anti gender and LGBTQ violence. I am an immigrant myself and my first language is not English, and despite the fact that I speak four languages I constantly put up with the fact that having a strong foreign accent makes people judge your intelligence. No one that works for social justice is trying to traumatize white people, but to work together to achieve equity. Unless they are narcs, of course. And yes, the words idiots and intellectual idiots have been used here. I’m an intellectual left-winged fighter for Social Justice. Burn me in hell for that!

          4. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I also have not ONE but TWO significant quotes under my work signature. Being a professor that is not uncommon but oh god, I’m burning in hell according to this thread!!!!

          5. lickemtomorrow says:

            “Most of the arguments against critical race theory, for example, are unfounded and built on the lack of knowledge of what it actually is and the mythology about it that many white people make up.”

            Another interesting comment. White people (as well as people of colour) are waking up to CRT and what it actually is – in a nutshell it is an ideology where people are to be judged by the colour of their skin rather than by the content of their character, and children are being taught to see the world through a racial lens, dividing them from one another, with white children being indoctrinated to believe they are inherently racist. Even people of colour see the dangers of this ideology. I saw one black father commenting the other day on the fact his wife was a white woman and his children were being taught that she was ‘evil’. Those were his own words to the school board in his district. It is an ideology that is designed to stoke the fires of division, and it is stoking them in families as well as communities and society as a whole. It needs to be thrown out with the garbage and replaced with proper civics classes where all children learn what it is to be a good citizen, which includes not being racist in general.

          6. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I disagree with you. Thank goodness I teach college so that I can make my students reflect critically on the existing divisions that are evident in our society and that are not created by teaching anyone on them! That’s absurd. Of course when teaching these important issues to younger kids, teachers do not adopt the same methodology or tackle the same topics as when teaching adults but instead, focus on teaching about equity and embracing all differences instead of imposing the hegemony of a normal ideal. There are disabled kids, kids of different ethnic backgrounds and with different accents, etc. Let me remind you that teaching about equality is critical race theory and is also considered “dangerous.” That people are being judged and discriminated by the color of their skin is not a concept CRT invented all of a sudden. Don’t you realize that’s what they are trying to make people believe? “These awful teachers just want to create division based on color” Errrr… It is the reality we live in. And for those of you who have commented a couple of times “this is the reality we live in now,” let me ask you: as opposed to what good old days? The days you could use the n- word on people and segregate them with liberty without anyone raising an eyebrow on you? I prefer this reality then. In any case, I don’t think anyone here understands there are many many people that work to create a more fair society whose work goes beyond all of this parafernalia.

          7. lickemtomorrow says:

            Happy for you to disagree, SP. I’m not sure about your classes, but teaching young people to reflect critically is key. This means presenting the many sides of an argument, arming them with facts, allowing them to come to their own conclusions. I’m not sure what you think is absurd. And teaching white children they are inherently racist is not a method of embracing difference in my opinion. It is demonizing white children and white people in general. The teaching of CRT has been banned in nine U.S. States so far and also from classrooms in Australia. Parents are clamouring to attend school board meetings to stop it in its tracks. This does not appear to be a well received ideology based on its divisive nature. And it is a political ideology, which is another reason to ban it from schools.

            I think the conversation has strayed off the path of CRT when you mention the hegemony of a normal ideal. Accepting difference is to be recommended, and education is required around those differences, as you mention how to embrace others and be inclusive. To my mind that cannot and does not mean demonizing the ‘normal’ in order to elevate those who are different . And by normal I assume you mean the majority. I came across a sign at one point which read “Smash heterosexism” … exactly what is the point of that sign? It’s an element of demonizing the ‘normal’ or majority status, recommending it be ‘smashed’, and I’m assuming based on that somehow other forms of sexuality become more acceptable. At least that’s the impression I get. So do away with ‘normal’, majority status, anything that indicates the reality of a minority status and difference, which means we’re all on a more ‘equitable’ footing. I see where the thinking is leading, but I believe it is misconstrued. Breaking down the fabric of society is not going to lead to a more equitable future. Currently it is leading to massive division and polarization.

            And in my opinion, certainly opens up the opportunity for the narcissist to step in and take the lead.

          8. Sweetest Perfection says:

            There is also narcissism in banning divergent forms of thinking. For example, for ages, whiteness has been portrayed as reality: in the media, in textbooks, in children’s books… it seems like other people did not exist if you revise the films from earlier decades, or the TV shows. If anything, the person that was different was usually taken as a comic relief or as an element of otherness. There were exceptions, yes, but that was the norm. Same thing with heterosexuality. Some people can be more aggressive in their demands and some of them, probably narcissists, express their black/white thinking in the way you have mentioned above: “smash heterosexism,” but the reality is that most of the queer people, among whom I include myself, are only demanding the same degree of respect and in many cases of safety. Homophobia is killing people still these days. And I’m not even talking about countries where strict religious views ban homosexuality. So my problem is with generalizations as I expressed in my first comments on this blog. That you are repulsed about that sentence is perfectly understandable. But extending the disagreement of a form of expressing that thought with the whole idea of forming part of a collective outside of an imaginary normality is generalizing. The fabric of society resides on being heterosexual? That implies homosexuals are left in the margins, which is the basis for necropolitics. I am opposed to that.

          9. lickemtomorrow says:

            Narcisissism can find a place to lay its head anywhere. As long as there are empaths who can be conned, it will happen. There are so many things being banned right now my head is beginning to spin. So certainly an element of divergence is being sacrificed for an element of uniformity. Uniformity of thought, speech, etc. But I take your point to mean less visibility of minorities. Which your reference to movies shows. Most movies were being made in a white majority country, so I would expect to see them being made about white people. That is not being sarcastic, but honest. In my opinion, movie goers want to see a reflection of themselves in the movies that they watch. Not all the time, but I would suggest it’s not outrageous to say that. And Bollywood would be an example. Anime is big in my home with my children, reflecting the culture which it belongs to as well. Hollywood doesn’t have a monopoly, but if you want to focus on that then there has been a big uptick in diversity lately and possibly a corresponding drop in sales. Certainly a look at the Oscars and various awards shows would indicate people are tired of both the tokenism and politicization of the medium. That’s not to say diverse groups do not and should not have a place there. Of course they should. But I don’t think you can engineer a place for them. That’s likely where we differ.

            I honestly fail to see how people of diverse sexuality haven’t taken their place in society at this point in time. I accept your point of view differs, but I wouldn’t say it’s my experience.

            I wasn’t “repulsed” by the wording “smash heterosexism” as much as affronted by it. To my mind it would like saying “smash homosexuality”. I would expect you to be affronted by that. I’m not accepting the destruction of my lifestyle because someone else believes it’s not inclusive enough. It’s the basis for our human society. so when you say “imaginary normality”, I think you will find it is a significant part of the fabric of our society, meaning it is not imaginary at all. It is part of what could be termed the “natural order”.

            I will have to return to what I have said previously about minority groupings when you say homosexuals are left on the margins. I would hope no one is excluded from society, and there is an effort made to be inclusive. But being in a minority creates a natural disadvantage which can’t always be easily overcome. We do need to decide to what extent we create opportunities for inclusion and how we do that. A reference to necropolitics I understand can be made from your point of view, and certainly we don’t want people to exist in some kind of no man’s land. It is a task that has been set for society to become better at accepting difference and being more inclusive. That cannot come at the risk of destruction of society as a whole. I am opposed to that.

          10. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I enjoy this dialogue, lickemtomorrow. I see a lot of ideas in your comments that are worth breaking down and discuss calmly and it would certainly be much more enjoyable to do so in person. These debates need the presence of the human soul to avoid misunderstandings and unnecessary grievance. “Grievance always looks for a cause to grieve.” Blogs and social media are ideal for anyone looking for a fight. I am glad we can talk about these diverging points of view without grievance, but I repeat, I wish it could be done in a different scenario.

          11. lickemtomorrow says:

            Yes, SP, there is much to be broken down and many POV’s to take into consideration. I agree this is not the ideal place and is taking us away from the purpose of the blog ultimately. But, I appreciate your willingness to discuss, and while neither of us are looking for a grievance, there’s no doubt some will occasionally be aired. It is the nature of the beast, but we have the narcissist to fight in common which is why we are here <3 He may be the one at the bottom of all our grievances x

          12. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Haha I love that I’m answering your comments typing like a maniac on one hand, propelled by some if your statements, and on the other thinking this needs to calm down. I’ll stop here. It is difficult to converse about these matters even more so in a blog, but I agree that we do have one enemy in common! Let’s fight against that one as our particular “globalist agenda”!! Haha ❤️

          13. lickemtomorrow says:

            <3 Agreed x

          14. A Victor says:

            I agree, teaching people to think critically is of the essence! And it needs to be drilled down to how to find accurate information in order to make a truly logical assessment of anything. And beyond that, how to discern when two opposing thoughts seem to have equal standing. This gets into personal values of course, which need to be based on critical thinking, so we know what we actually believe. The underlying assumption in order to have the ability to think critically is that we can get to the true bottom of an issue by having all sides available to us to investigate. When one or more sides are not presented, or even withheld in some way, we are at a disadvantage and our critical thinking becomes even more important, we need to think for ourselves outside of what we are being told in such an instance. I hope that people mostly fall into the place where all humans are of value, color is not, character is, therefore, teach character.

          15. lickemtomorrow says:

            Loved what you said here, AV, and totally agree. It shows a true understanding, in my opinion, of what it takes to get to the essentials of any issue and form our decision making around that. Bravo for that well thought out comment and insight!

          16. A Victor says:

            LET, I should understand, I have studied and practiced critical thinking skills and proactively taught them to my children. And I use those skills all the time. I am a student and an investigator at heart, wanting to understand as much as I can about all things that interest me. Even my children don’t know some of the things I have studied. My ex and my parents have had no clue. It is has helped my learning here also, to be a natural student, well practiced at my craft, so to speak. My big struggle has been with emotions. But, I have been getting a handle on those since being here, so it’s all good.

            This blog has been fascinating because there are so many different opinions and so many topics, very unique. And with every one mostly really working to have good relationships even when they disagree, very rich learning environment on so many levels. Not the least of which, narcissism of course. So interesting to me that on that topic people really do come together and see so much similarly, and also act so similarly. It speaks volumes to there really being one best way to handle narcissists.

          17. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, I am constantly challenging my children to think critically. Poor kids don’t get away with anything, and nor do I when there is a challenge at hand. They are very willing to take me to task and vice versa. I think their lives are so enriched by having to consider competing ideas. They’ve honed their debating skills well, and are free to disagree with me as long as they can make the argument to support their position x

            How wonderful you used your initiative to continue your learning <3 It definitely shines through here. And you are not just learning about narcissism, but dealing with its devastating impact on your life. No wonder you have been emotional.

            And I can see how much you have achieved and how far you have come, and in such a short space of time. It is really encouraging and I hope it continues xox

          18. A Victor says:

            “I saw one black father commenting the other day on the fact his wife was a white woman and his children were being taught that she was ‘evil’.” Wow, it has the potential to damage families. I have seen there is an uptick in depression in children also, probably predominantly white but even those who have white friends have been affected, they love their friends. I don’t think children, left on their own, see color. I think they adopt the views from adults around them. There are a couple of beautiful videos online of two friends, ages 2 or 3, running to each other and hugging, over the top happy to be together, one white and one of color. I believe this is the view of children if left to themselves and/or encouraged to accept all people without attention focused on appearance.

          19. A Victor says:

            “one white and one of color” I don’t even like this, white is a color as are all the rest and even this sets a differentiation there. But how else to adequately describe the video? One lighter skinned, haired, eyed and one darker skinned, haired and eyed? That seems a bit silly, descriptions of a woman with red hair as opposed to a woman of brown or blond or blue hair is just that, a description, no negative involved. But when it comes to skin, suddenly it is offensive to describe someone, in the vein of accuracy and understanding to the listener, with a skin color. To where now I don’t even like the words I wrote a few hours ago. PC at it’s finest.

          20. lickemtomorrow says:

            I had a Native American friend who was happy to be called an Indian 🙂 She was older, and it seems unoffended. She said an issue only arose for her when you also had people from India now living in the States where obviously a clarification was needed at times. She had the best sense of humour, and the most amazing way of balancing out life and the world so everyone took some responsibility and no one was to blame <3 I loved her ability to do that and always her sense of humour saved the day. Humour is such a necessary thing to help bring us back from the edge at times, and keep us from destroying ourselves. It has an ability to clear the air and help everyone to breathe, enables us to stop taking ourselves so seriously for once.

            I was also told it was preferable to call a black person black, and not necessarily African American. Perhaps that was someone's personal preference. I can't remember. It is a necessary descriptive word, the same as white, and in my opinion shouldn't be offensive, but perhaps we are being made to overthink all these things. Another nod to narcissism. And definitely PC at its finest.

          21. lickemtomorrow says:

            Oddly enough, AV, I happened across that same video the other day <3 Those little beauties don't see colour, and more often than not children don't. Until they are made to. The fact it is being brought to their attention in such an egregious way is what bothers me. I can only imagine children of colour will see white children as their 'enemies' and white children will see themselves as 'perpetrators' of racism. They are no such thing, but being perceived that way leaves them no choice but to accept the weight of that millstone being hung around their neck. Wrong, wrong, wrong. I've seen and read many examples where the notion of white privilege does not apply. It is such a generalization to assume all white people are privileged, much as it is a generalization to assume all people of colour are underprivileged. It seems to be a overlooked that there are also POC Conservatives. Quite a few. Those are the ones likely to speak out against the theory being promulgated, and to call it out for the lie it is. They do not feel oppressed, refuse to claim victim status, and believe they are on an equal footing in terms of opportunity in society. Some of them have come from very poor and difficult childhoods. Dividing along the lines of race is detrimental to the whole of society. We need to see eachother as friends, and accept there is good and bad in every batch. It was shocking to read the comment from the black woman who said a man should not be given up by their own race in the case of rape. Imagine if that rule applied across the board? Equality means we all live under the same rules and law. Lady Justice is blindfolded. She does not, and should not, see colour. In my opinion, neither should we <3

          22. Sweetest Perfection says:

            *** Aporophobia. Damn it’s late. Also Witch, I was confused about your frustration with transgender or non gender conforming pronouns. I understand about the pain of having to learn or change etc. I find it a little bit out of my comfort zone too. But at the end of the day, is it really because those people are weirdos? Who decides who is not weird? I honestly thought this whole shenanigans about narcs Empaths etc was like The Lord of the Rings at first: pure fiction. Why do we need to establish what is normal on others? And I’m saying this based on the fact that at least 80% of the people in this blog are NOT normals.

          23. lickemtomorrow says:

            “I understand about the pain of having to learn or change etc. I find it a little bit out of my comfort zone too.”

            For some reason I find this comment somewhat condescending. People are not just out of their comfort zones. They are literally being demonized for not agreeing to get on board with ‘woke’ ideology in many places. There is a threat hanging over their heads in terms of significant loss to their livelihoods amongst other things. People are resentful of being told they are the ones who need to change when often they are in the majority and in a sane world it is more often encumbent on minority groupings to adjust. Since when do the minority get to tell the majority how things are done? And force the majority to cater to them? It’s a narcissistic fantasy.

            I’m left handed. We are 10% of the population. At no point did I ever, or will I ever, expect to be accomodated as a left hander in a right handers world. I’ve made the adjustment. Considering the majority of people, or 90% of the population, are right handed. I could spend my life being resentful of the fact they’re not being ‘inclusive’, but in all honesty I’m quite happy with the current state of affairs. In many ways it makes me unique. I could cry discrimination, but I’m not going to do that either. Because I have the common sense to realize the world wasn’t created to cater to me and I have to learn to be resilient in order to survive.

          24. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Being left handed has never created a life threatening situation, has it? I wouldn’t say left handed people are disabled either, my husband is left handed and he is pretty successful. That’s not a very good example in my opinion. “They are literally being demonized for not agreeing to get on board with ‘woke’ ideology in many places.” Those who demonize are indeed sucked in by the narcissists’ agenda. I don’t demonize anyone. To me, it’s just going out of my comfort zone and that’s how I expressed it. But it doesn’t affect my life, while those who prefer other identity pronouns may have an impact on their lives at the end of the day. And if I can make their lives happier, I will, gladly do so. One of my friends is a transgender actress in my original country who tells about how hurtful some people can be using masculine pronouns with her on purpose when it is obvious she looks like a woman. What Witch complained about is logical and it is impossible to make a guess sometimes I understand, but changing pronouns because someone feels better doesn’t make my life any different. “Since when do the minority get to tell the majority how things are done?” I read in that comment you are part of the majority and you feel extremely comfortable in your status. Congrats on you, from someone who is not part of that.

          25. lickemtomorrow says:

            You are correct, SP, being left handed has never created a life threatening situation for me, and this may be the case for other people belonging to minority groups as well. Not everyone belonging to a minority group has had their lives threatened. In the case of minorities where lives are threatened it needs to be duly dealt with and any discrimination confronted and curbed. So, I stand firmly against threatening people based on any kind of minority status. My example may not be a good one, but it is a realistic one in the sense left handers are consistently overlooked in a world set up for right handers. At one stage in history the discrimination was more overt with left handedness considered to be a sign of the devil and moves made to force them to write with their right hand. This element of discrimination has been largely overcome now with a better understanding. So education is important in helping to break down barriers.

            I accept your expression of going out of your comfort zone, and that is obviously your personal choice. The way it was expressed indicated to me an assumption on your part that everyone else should be prepared to do the same. I don’t believe that is the case. Other people do not have to apply the same thinking, though they are free to do so if they wish. That is not the message coming from the woke crowd. It’s a do or die scenario. Do what we say or you will be cut off/cancelled/shut down. That is where the tyranny comes in for me. People feel they do not have a choice and I believe they should. I imagine most would be accomodating if given the choice.

            And I have no problem using a person’s chosen pronoun if they have a desire to be referred to that way. Sadly, I heard a baby being referred to as “it” the other day to avoid any “misgendering”, even though biologically it has to be either a boy or girl. This is where a red flag is raised for me, and I can only imagine how a narcissist might appreciate the notion of this perception which to me was totally dehumanizing in its concept. At what point do we draw the line on being accommodating and turning the whole of society and our sense of reality on its head?

            And just to finish this part of the conversation, I’d like to know which people do not feel comfortable in their majority status and why they should not be afforded the ability to do so? If I form part of a minority, which I do also, I am comfortable in accepting I form part of a minority and on the basis of that accept society favours the majority, which is a reality. I may certainly attempt to influence that, but I do not believe I am entitled to expect special treatment because I hold a minority status. That, to me, is narcissistic thinking.

          26. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Special treatment? It’s equality, lickemtomorrow.

          27. lickemtomorrow says:

            You missed the part about being “entitled to expect” special treatment. Equality relates to opportunity.

          28. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Also, one of my signature quotes, lickemtomorrow: “We, minorities, are the majority.”

          29. lickemtomorrow says:

            Seems like I hit the nail on the head there.

            I wonder from your perspective what that means, SP. Or where it comes from and what the author of the quote was intending in saying that.

          30. Sweetest Perfection says:

            It means that if you stop looking at the groups that are considered “minorities” as opposed to the hegemonic “majority” (taking into consideration race, social status, gender identification, sexual preference etc etc) as separate and isolated and instead, see them as a whole, we are the majority. No society is homogeneous.

          31. lickemtomorrow says:

            No society is homogenous. And I like the way your use of intersectionality nicely fits the narrative. I don’t happen to agree with it, and I’m fascinated by the attempt to bring minority groupings together in a manner to make them fit a majority perspective. If you break society down enough, you might just be able to achieve that. It’s got globalist agenda written all over it. I’ll be interested to see how all these disparate groups manage to hang together in the long term, since some of them seem to be having difficulties getting along at the moment.

          32. Sweetest Perfection says:

            You’re othering so much I just can’t.

          33. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Bravo! Thank you very much. That´s why, being a leftist myself, decided not to discuss here. 😉

          34. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I feel like Joan of Arc here so I’m gonna run for my life. I should have kept my mouth shut, you were wiser than me, Leela.

          35. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Sometimes it´s better NOT to discuss 😉 Waste of time and energy. We can use our energy for more constructive activities. 😉

          36. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Yes, like continuing my work for social justice and minorities visibility in the real world.

          37. leelasfuelstinks says:

            We have nothing to loose but our chains! ✊

          38. MP says:

            Hello SP,

            I want to start by saying I want to ask this not to antagonize you in any way and we are always able to have mutual respect in spite of our differences.

            Critical Race Theory is just a personal matter of interest for me because of my school age older kid and I refrain from debating about it because I do not know what specifically is taught there. However anecdotes have been pretty concerning for me. There was a video (post redacted for rule breach) of a young girl, probably in middle school crying in what I think was a school board meeting. She said that she lived in an abusive home with drugs etc. and she has experienced all forms of abuse and have lost both of her parents. So when her teacher told her that her life is privileged she was really hurt and cried herself to bed all night. She obviously has serious trauma from the life she has had and her teacher’s words re traumatized her and minimized or rewrote her life story for her telling her that her life is privileged. This is a young girl under 18 who doesn’t even have the coping mechanisms that adults have. In my opinion it shouldn’t be taught to young kids whose brains are not fully developed yet if it is this provocative as described by this girl. How do we know that all of the teachers teaching this will teach this in an empathic way to young kids? I think that maybe we shouldn’t dismiss the criticisms and objections on Critical Race Theory and the concept of White Privilege right away. Although I acknowledge the good intentions of some people behind this and I believe in social equity and justice, I don’t believe in the method of teaching this to young kids in such a provocative way.

          39. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Hi MP. I don’t know who that teacher is but that’s not how teachers should be tackling those issues like I said in another comment. I am surrounded by teachers and believe me, none of them do that at that age. But hey, not all teachers are good teachers. I agree with you on the age adaptation and on being extremely careful. I love you my friend, no matter how far apart our ideologies are. 😘

          40. MP says:

            Thank you SP! I love you too and thank you for being open minded. ❤️😘

          41. MP says:

            Hi HG,

            I just noticed the redacted sentence in my post. I apologize for the breach of rule. I will refrain from posting a similar statement in the future.

          42. HG Tudor says:

            Make sure you do, you have form for doing this and it will not be tolerated.

          43. MP says:

            Now that I know it is against the rule I wouldn’t repeat it.

          44. HG Tudor says:

            I am afraid that is not going to wash with me MP, you have been warned about this behaviour before in correspondence, indeed you have written in your own blog comments previously about how you know you should not do this. You have known before that are not allowed to do this and you have done so again.

          45. Witch says:

            @SP

            Most people who are arguing against some of the extremist ideals of the left are not saying racism or prejudice against migrants does not exist.
            I’m in England…so… I fully understand the racist ideas among some of the natives here.
            At the same time I can also disagree with certain conclusions and tactics made and used by some people on the left to address these issues.
            I do not come from a white English family .. my white heritage is Scottish. most of my ethnic background has historical beef with the English … I still don’t agree with white privilege experiments taking place with minors at school. And I still don’t agree with the concept of white privilege being introduced to minors for reasons already mentioned.

            Now in regards to pronouns I do use opposite sex pronouns for transsexuals. My issue with over sensitivity in regards to pronouns and “assuming your gender,” is the fact that people have eyes, and they will refer to you using certain pronouns based on the secondary sex characteristics that they see… it is simply unrealistic to expect someone to ask what your pronouns are in every interaction and not to “assume” your gender.
            This overboard and exaggerated fixation with identity is quite frankly narcissistic and we are supporting the narcissism in these kids by adhering to it.. for a lot these kids, by the time they are in their 30’s they will have completely different priorities than worrying about if someone refers to them as “ze” instead of “she.” I suspect for a lot of these young people being a different gender has become the new goth. It’s a new way to rebel and feel “unique.” That’s all.

          46. HG Tudor says:

            Valid observations

          47. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I see your point Witch, I do.

          48. A Victor says:

            One of my daughters works for a major health organization and has had training regarding gender pronouns. She was absolutely panicky after the initial one, quite some time ago now, because of just what you state. She said “How many times can I accidentally say the wrong pronoun because of what I’m seeing in front of me without losing my job? It is so confusing, my brain has to work overtime to keep that discrepancy (between her eye, brain and mouth) straight and I know I will fail at some point and inadvertently offend someone!” She went on to say, and I know this to be true of her, that it is not a matter of not wanting to do what is asked, it is simply a disconnect. She could care less what people wish to be addressed as, she’s completely willing to accommodate anyone in that regard, but when your job security is on the line over it, that is going a bit too far resulting in making the employee unnecessarily nervous, which can result in even more error. If it is a case of “We will do our best to accommodate ________________.” and then giving the employee a number of opportunities to show they are trying, that’s a whole different thing. It is not something that comes up frequently for her and she has made a couple of errors with regard to it and the patient’s have been very understanding, thankfully. She has also seen other employees make similar errors and the same results. I do think that as long as people know the effort is being made, they are willing to accommodate an occasional error. But, what happens when you run into a person (there is always one, probably a narc) who is not so understanding? Does she lose her career over it? That is where it becomes an unfair bias in the opposite direction, which isn’t acceptable either.

          49. WhoCares says:

            SweetestPerfection,

            Is that a squished fairy as your avatar?

          50. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Hahaha! It is a squished woman yes. It’s part of the huge visual effects that accompanied the song Enjoy the Silence in the latest Depeche Mode tour. For your pleasure: https://youtu.be/-_3dc6X-Iwo

          51. WhoCares says:

            SP,
            I would have never guessed that was where it originated from. Thanks for the link.
            With only viewing the thumbnail, in your avatar, and no further information, it looked very much like an image from Lady Cottington’s Pressed Fairy Journal.

          52. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Oh, it does! Thanks for mentioning it, I wasn’t familiar with that work. It’s beautiful.

          53. WhoCares says:

            SP,

            “I wasn’t familiar with that work. It’s beautiful”
            I love the work of Brian Froud. And Wendy Froud, for that matter.
            Although, I find the idea of squishing faeries highly offensive! Haha.
            Brian Froud clearly has a sense of humour.

          54. Sweetest Perfection says:

            They all look like leaves that have dried out in between closed books, don’t they?

          55. WhoCares says:

            You didn’t see the squished body parts and green and blue smears?

          56. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Whaaaat

          57. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I see the blue and green which I recognized as their juice/blood, like insects, but not the body parts… no body parts please!!! At least no fairy was harmed during the DM concert!! Haha

          58. Witch says:

            yes HG

            Everyone’s pronoun in England right now is “it’s fackin coming home”

          59. Asp Emp says:

            Witch, it didn’t ‘come home’ afterall ! I lost count how many times I shouted the words ‘s**t’ and ‘fk’……I was ok about it though cos reaching the Final was just as good.

          60. Witch says:

            @Asp

            Anyways nothing to see here folks… World Cup coming home 🤣🤣🤣
            (Definitely not! )

            Chiellini woke up and chose violence (suspect narcissist)

          61. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Italy has won all the Euro-things this year…

          62. Asp Emp says:

            Witch, my friend sent to me a pic RE: England better at Rugby World Cup (LOL). Yeah, that guy you mentioned, I would say, deffo a narcissist. I’m laughing here. Cos I did mutter to myself “Narcissist” as I was watching the game LOL.

          63. Violetta says:

            Just as someone who’s taught English, I HATE “they” as the universal pronoun. I can deal and have dealt with drag queens who want to be “she,” and vice versa, but unless you’re Chang and Eng or the Three Faces of Eve, you are not a “they.”

            ‘kay, rant over.

        3. A Victor says:

          Thank you Paul, as with Fiddleress, also well stated thoughts, I enjoyed reading them and they make good sense to me. It is about convincing of the intellectual sense regarding collectivism, through controlling thoughts, and then flipping it to controlling via collectivism. This can be used by anyone to achieve their agenda, we see it in peer.pressure amongst children even. Narcissists wrote the book on it, I have come to believe. So, which narcissist in peer does one align with? The one that aligns most closely with one’s own values. How does one know one’s own values? Simplistically by thinking through issues, independent from others and searching for just the facts. But, how does that happen, when the ones with agendas control the “facts”, when collectivism already has a foothold within influencing positions etc?

          I believe this comment thread is great and absolutely fitting for a blog on narcissism, please keep you’re comments coming.

          1. A Victor says:

            Which narcissist *in power* does one align with. Autocorrect strikes yet again. Sorry HG.

          2. Another Cat says:

            Hi Sweetest Perfection

            “I am an immigrant myself and my first language is not English,

            and despite the fact that I speak four languages I constantly put up with the fact that having a strong foreign accent makes people judge your intelligence.”

            My immigrant parents talked a lot about this issue.

            English, Scandinavian, and maybe Flemish, has this specific feature apart from many languages in the world, of “singing on the vowels” to an huge extent. Every word has its own melody depending on what one is talking about, where in the sentence it’s positioned. Pronounciation rules and habits exist but: Words are individuals over here.

            English and Scandinavian will therefore always sound a tad ‘snobbish’ when pronounced correctly. Not grammarwise but more sound-wise.

            It is a bit unfair, one can live in France for seven years and start being accepted as a frenchman, and sound a bit like one, if linguistically talented. This is not at all the case in Scandinavia or Englishspeaking countries. Many maintain a full life here for 30 years and the strong accent – soundwise, not grammatically – is still there. And as you say, people ignorantly judging you for it, they sit there, reflecting on your intelligence. (Except good friends)

          3. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Thank you so much AC. Yes, it’s called linguistic profiling. The funny thing is everyone without exception has an accent. Whenever someone asks me where is that accent from and I respond, I also ask: and where’s yours from? And what about choosing a lizard with a British accent for an American insurance company because it sounds smarter that way?So many stupid prejudices.

          4. A Victor says:

            SP, I love that response! You get to learn more about the person in the process, where they’re from, maybe some of their history. That’s great!

          5. Violetta says:

            Sweet-Pv

            To be fair, I think the Geico Gekko is supposed to be Australian, and it started as a joke with him irritably fielding wrong number calls for Geico. The character took off, and became friendly and with more cuddly features.

          6. Sweetest Perfection says:

            It is not Australian, Violetta. At least in recent years he has a cockney accent. Which is funny because it’s supposed to be picked to represent the working class.

          7. MP says:

            SP, I agree about the biases with the different accents. I feel the same way about the different ways of eating. There was a child from my home country who immigrated to Canada and was traumatized after his teacher constantly shamed him for using fork and spoon for eating because that’s how we do it in our home country. My friend who is in a live in relationship with an American here in the US who has red flags of N opened up to me in how he ridicules the way she eats with fork and spoon. I asked him how come he uses chopsticks when we have sushi together and he thinks it’s sophisticated and yet makes fun or another country’s manner of using a fork and spoon. He said he just teases her and doesn’t really make fun of her. It is interesting how there are foreign customs or accents that are sophisticated and some that are considered unattractive or unacceptable.

          8. A Victor says:

            MP, years ago a man approached me as I ate in a restaurant and inquire where I was from. Apparently the way I cut and eat my meat is British, so he wondered if I was from the UK. It was most odd, I didn’t feel that he was particularly friendly about it, like he was offended that an American was homing in on a British practice. My dad taught me how to cut my meat as a child but I must have adjusted the eating part on my own, my dad cut and ate his meat in the typical “zig-zag” American fashion. I was probably just simplifying things. It was an odd encounter.

          9. HG Tudor says:

            I prefer my meat sanguine. Just like my victims.

          10. A Victor says:

            Hahaha, and eaten right out of hand I suppose.

          11. MP says:

            And then there’s also a different way people from New Zealand way. My husband was a missionary there when he was a teenager and he learned their way. Anyway my husband started eating the New Zealand way in front of my sister because he said he wants her to pick on the way he was eating so he would put her in her place. She didn’t have the guts to pick on him though.

            But I eat the American way now and I pick up the ribs with my hands now too. 😋

          12. MP says:

            SP,

            I found the article about the boy in Montreal,Canada that was shamed for eating with fork and spoon. I feel that the teacher may have been a narcissist.

            https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/boy-s-eating-habits-lead-to-international-protest-1.586421

            My half sister also reprimanded me about the way I eat and she stood behind me and took my fork and knife to teach me how to eat properly and in front of my stepson. When I asked my husband about his opinion about it because he wasn’t there when in happened he said that it was her who didn’t have table manners because table manners also means not making other people you eat with uncomfortable or upset. And she also had a semi British accent (Mid Atlantic) which she was proud of. One time I had ribs with my half sister and brother and I wasn’t sure how to eat ribs because it wasn’t traditional food where I came from so I used a fork and knife to separate the meat from the bone and my sister told me the right way to eat ribs is by picking it up with your hands and my brother said to her, “No, that’s the American way, not the right way.” He’s a liberal professor and he has always been nice.

            Also about foreign accents my husband said he didn’t like when people talked to his mom like she wasn’t smart because of her strong German accent. She was an immigrant too.

            It seems like unaware Ns can have a tendency to be judgmental in ways and customs that are different from what they are familiar with. Maybe because of the lack of empathy.

          13. njfilly says:

            AV:

            Americans cut their meat in a particular way? I did not realize that.

            I usually just pick up the piece of meat with my hands and bite into it like I’m eating a samwich.

          14. A Victor says:

            NJFilly, my dad was a UMR Elite, very “appropriate” and in the know on all things etiquette. He used to critique our table settings, we weren’t allowed to do anything that wasn’t in the etiquette rulebook if he was eating, it seemed a pain at the time but now I have more appreciation for it.

            Yes, both the British way and the American way begin with the knife in the right hand and the fork in the left, for holding the meat in place while you are cutting. The difference is that once the piece is cut, the British way is to use the left had with fork already in it to pierce the meat, pick it up and put it in your mouth, sensible. The American way is to set your knife down on your plate, cross the fork over to your right hand, pierce to piece and put it in your mouth. Once done, you cross the fork back to the left hand, pick up the knife and do it again, hence the term “Zig-zag” style. It seems a waste of time to me, I am all about efficiency, haha. More than you wanted to know I am sure. America is adopting the British method more all the time and I am a strong proponent for doing so. I use my hands for chicken. 🙂

          15. njfilly says:

            AV:

            Interesting. Actually I use both methods. Although it is a waste of time to keep transferring the fork from left to right hand, for myself, I am more steady using my right hand, which is the reason I would do it, and I may want to take a forkful of potatoes before cutting another piece of meat!

            What if the American is left handed then inadvertently will be cutting their meat the British way? This could lead to another revolution.

          16. HG Tudor says:

            That’s enough of this food based frippery.

          17. njfilly says:

            Ha ha!! WTH!! I’m being reprimanded again?!

            I apologize Master Tudor. I understand if you think I need a spanking. I probably deserve one and it’s the only way I will learn.

          18. A Victor says:

            NJFilly, I think I am at least partially responsible for the reprimand, apologies HG. Feel free to take my spanking also, if you like NJF, I will behave fine without one. 😁

          19. njfilly says:

            Ha ha!!

            You are not responsible for me but I will take your spanking anyway. (I will not behave without a spanking).

          20. A Victor says:

            Haha, I’m not taking responsibility, just offering you a gift, if you want it! Enjoy! Hahaha

          21. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Njfilly, you crack me up!

          22. A Victor says:

            (Sensible) 😉

          23. Witch says:

            “I prefer my meat sanguine. Just like my victims.”

            Phew I’m safe

          24. A Victor says:

            Oh dear, I am not certain which definition he is referring to…I could be in trouble here…

          25. Bubbles says:

            Dear Mr Tudor,
            Narcs use knives to stab you in the back, their words are cutting,
            and they give everyone a mouthful
            They can all get forked
            🤣
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

        4. ava101 says:

          … and then there are Americans….

          1. A Victor says:

            Hi Ava101, every person I have loved, narc or not, has been an American. I also love my country. I am discouraged by things that happen here sometimes but that just makes me strive to improve things. I want my grandchildren to have the same opportunities I have been blessed to have. Glad you found the blog, it is a great place for learning about narcissism.

          2. njfilly says:

            Yes there are Americans. I am American.

            What are you insinuating? Please enlighten me.

          3. Violetta says:

            I used to be able to tell which Brooklyn subway line/parish people were from by the accent. Sts Simon and Jude had a different accent from St Dominic’s, though both are in Bensonhurst.

          4. Sweetest Perfection says:

            That’s cool.

    3. MP says:

      Being a leader of a communist country is definitely a narcissist’s dream. I would not want to set foot on any of the countries that are still communists. Although I enjoyed my past trips to Hong Kong but from what I am reading they have so much human rights violations there now too. It’s too bad because I was looking forward to taking my kids to some of the fun places there but it’s not the same anymore. Hopefully it will still go back to how it was.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        You have plenty of human rights violations going on right under your nose.

        1. MP says:

          Are you making an assumption that I am not aware that human rights violations can happen in the US? Is England completely free of human rights violations? Is France completely free of human rights violations? I was making a point that Communist China is in the process of taking away a lot of basic human rights from the people who live in Hong Kong and I was commenting on communism which Paul brought up. Do you believe that the human rights violations in the US, England and France is as pervasive as in Hong Kong? People in Hong Kong doesn’t have as much freedom as Americans have. You can’t even own a land in Hong Kong, you have to lease it from China for as long as you are allowed.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Your paranoia has surfaced again.

          2. MP says:

            I don’t have paranoia HG. I know what paranoia is and it is a very serious mental illness that affects a person’s way of life. I worry a lot when I have had negative past experiences that cause it just like most Empath’s here that worry and overthink. In the past year or so the only time you would comment to me was when you disagree with me, make a joke about me, or correct me. I think that has a lot to do with how I have been interpreting your interactions with me.

            My mom had paranoia when she was alive as I have shared here in the blog before. I am no where near that and my personal life is not dysfunctional like that.

            Going back to what I have said, I believe that communism and narcissism are linked because that system enables a narcissistic leader to take away a lot of rights from people. The one or two child policies alone is so incredibly controlling that people didn’t even have the right to make their own reproductive decisions for their family and many have aborted female fetuses because of how restrictive the life is for women there. In Hong Kong, many were arrested in their homes because of the National Security Law just because they happened to criticize China or advocate for LGBTQ rights. So I do think that despite of the human rights violations in the US, Canada, and European countries, they are not as pervasive as in China and North Korea which are both communist countries.

          3. SParham says:

            My son was just speaking of the China with Hong Kong issues last night. It is sad to hear of suffering going on anywhere.

      2. Alexissmith2016 says:

        I don’t think there has ever been a ‘true’ communist country. So we can’t really judge on what one would be like. And whilst there are Ns, narcissists, normals I don’t believe it is possible. Perhaps not even possible with empaths only, but more possible.

        1. Witch says:

          @Alexis

          This is the problem with any ideology whether well meaning or not… the challenge is convincing millions of people to agree and human beings are far too complex to abide by any one “religion.”
          Over time there becomes sects within sects as when someone doesn’t agree with how a specific thing is being done, they create their own off shoot movement and so on and so forth… until possibly another “Hitler” comes along

        2. Duchessbea says:

          AS2016, you make a valid point, but I can of three countries (all of which are rich, large and military strong, there are more besides) just offhand that would very much stick out as being c. countries. I have also read that Meghan Markle would like to run for President of the US some day. Would be interesting to see her in full flow as Chief Narc. I would say Donnie Trump is a pussycat compared to her.

    4. Hi Paul,

      Your post reminded me of all the talk about the great re-set and idea that we will own nothing and be happy. Assuming that a few will own everything and be happy lol.

      For anyone who may not have heard of this I quote =

      ‘The Davos Agenda is a pioneering mobilization of global leaders to shape the principles, policies and partnerships needed in this challenging new context. It is essential for leaders from all walks of life to work together virtually for a more inclusive, cohesive and sustainable future as soon as possible in 2021.’

      Our very wealthy – who made capitalism work so well for them – think this is the anwser (my voice drips with the irony).

      Given who the core members are – are they directing policy to create the idea grounds for this to become viable? Or am I treading into conspiracy theory territory?

      I am taliking about the loose policies regarding money printing etc..The amount of public and private debt, inflation and supply issues. (I would love to blame them for all the weather/ natural disasters etc but that might be beyond their ability as mortals haha).

  13. Asp Emp says:

    PAWA, loving it “Why do I look at Boris and see the penguin from the TV Gotham – they look nothing alike…” – Boris would be more handsome once he’d been roasted 😉

  14. i dunno says:

    Here is a clip from American Psycho that is now about wokism… is this a window into an aspect of what is happening ..? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQmmO95thxI

  15. psychologyandworldaffairs says:

    Why do I look at Boris and see the penguin from the TV Gotham – they look nothing alike…

    Narcissists seem to crave control and power – makes sense they will be over represented on both sides and all areas of politics.

    Is this the problem – or is the problem that people seem not to question them? The divides created within such arguments? Black and white thinking with no grey area allowed by either?

  16. Truthseeker6157 says:

    So glad you chose to highlight this. I have never felt so penned in and frustrated by the false compassion and concern exhibited by a sizeable percentage of the woke practitioners. I had a conversation with my dad about it the other day. He made a fair point. It will continue for a period of time, people will tire of being told what is acceptable to do, say or think. At this point people will pull in the opposite direction and to the extreme. Meaning that the valid progress achieved by the original woke concept will be lost in the backlash.

    I agree with him in part. I think it will take longer for the backlash to occur. Money in my view will kill it off eventually. ‘Go woke, go broke’. As soon as big business loses enough money through following woke protocols and sponsoring woke narcissist celebrities to promote their products, there will be a switch back. That takes time to hit the P&L though. In the meantime, we have to get stifled by the narcissistic interpretation of woke. It’s everywhere. A means to silence the masses. I find that highly concerning. It’s the divide and conquer routine at a time when post pandemic, we need to pull together and rebuild. Quite honestly, it’s depressing.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Valid observations.

      1. alexissmith2016 says:

        any examples where both parents are empaths and they produce a narc child?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Yes.

          1. alexissmith2016 says:

            Oh blimey! Must be awful, although I guess most don’t full realise what they’re dealing with and if they’re anything like my sister my mother never saw through her and believed she was wonderful anyway.

        2. Another Cat says:

          My grandparents and my aunt, 3 empaths, my mother Middle Mid type B.

          Genes probably skipped a generation.

          LOCE seems to be a variety of things. Could be that they were very poor and had new guests (relatives visiting city from the country side) every weekend. But I don’t know the real reason.

          1. Another Cat says:

            Oh and I mean nice empaths, not normals, although my grandmother was so religious the daughters had to go to church a couple of times a week. My aunt became atheist, later more spiritual.

            Though I see the resemblences (no one is adopted) my mother’s colours were much lighter than her parents and sister. Very blond, big blue eyes. Looked a lot like… Goldie Hawn I guess (But without the dye) She often bragged about her looks and got a Lot of praise for it growing up and in adulthood.

          2. Alexissmith2016 says:

            Ah thanks Cat. Any idea where your mum inherited it from? Did it skip a generation so you think? Or further back even?

          3. Ignore my last reply cat. I’d picked up your message when I was driving, then replied a while later and forgot the second part of your answer. Hahaha thanks so much for your response.

        3. BC30 says:

          I would think this is more likely to be spoiling/smothering the child with praise or outside influences, than direct abuse at the hands of the parental figures?

    2. BC30 says:

      Can you provide an example of woke sponsorship that you think will soon go bust and cause the inevitable backlash?

      1. Truthseeker6157 says:

        Hey BC30

        Big brands going woke that invested in ad campaigns recently and then had to U turn.

        Pepsi. Appropriating the BLM movement featuring Kendal Jenner joining a protest and offering a can of Pepsi to protesters of differing cultures and latterly a cop. Huge backlash for under representing the importance of the BLM movement. Ad campaign pulled.

        Gillette. Change of strapline from the ‘Best A Man Can Get’ to the ‘Best A Man Can Be’ with a series of ads showing how men should behave better. The campaign received some praise but a greater majority were against the campaign. Gillette in effect alienated its core consumers.

        The Oscars. Viewing figures in repetitive yr on yr decline since the arrival of more woke strategic film nominations and the award winners using the ceremony as an opportunity to preach woke values to the viewing audience.

        The company Brewdog also fell foul of a woke ad campaign. I’m sure there are others.

        Most recent here in UK. The launch of GB News. Andrew Neil who launched the channel is a journalist who chairs the Spectator magazine (political satire) and who also presents a show called Woke Watch which highlights examples of political correctness gone mad. GB news describes itself as “An alternative to mainstream media where the focus is on generating opinion and controversy, rather than original reporting.” (Meaning mainstream media is focussed on controversy, not GB news)
        Companies such as IKEA Nivea and Grolsch pulled their sponsorship during the first week of broadcasting, partly in response to an organised and orchestrated Twitter backlash by woke campaigners who claimed that GB news was basically too right wing.

        In my mind, the issue is not whether the ads, the oscars, the news channel is good or bad, right or wrong to align or not align with the woke movement. The issue is that for companies such Pepsi, it’s a dangerous marketing move. One which inevitably loses them consumers. As such, aligning with woke will become not worth the risk. Chrissy Teagen Taygan and her ilk will also pose problems. Without big business backing, over time, you would expect woke appeal to become less visible.

        Is that what you meant? Haha xx

        1. BC30 says:

          Got it, thank you. I’ve never understood that pandering, especially when done by “progressive” companies. Many of my friends of varying political leanings have boycotted Starbucks over BLM, LGBT, and Christmas cups, etc.

          However, Starbucks quietly provided (US) health insurance to opposite sex domestic partners for many, many years (early 2000s) and began providing gender reassignment surgery in 2012. Whether one agrees with that or not, they were a quietly “progressive” company long before entering the “woke” mainstream, and it has cost them many customers.

          I would rather see actual benefits for employees of any given company than bullshit woke marketing.

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:

            BC30,

            It’s funny you mention Starbucks. I have a friend in TN that started working there just to get the health insurance. Her daughter has Angelman’s syndrome, her son ADHD, she then was diagnosed ADHD in adulthood and was put on meds for it. Starbucks were great with her. Part time barista and my friend just couldn’t have afforded the health cover without her working there. So in terms of help where needed I have a positive account to relay there.

            Big business is big business but Starbucks in my view has at least made an effort. Fair trade etc, I don’t know enough about their sourcing to comment about exactly how fair their fair trade practices are but they looked to be going about things in the right way, at least they were around 7 or 8 yrs ago. I agree, supporting employees and sourcing sustainably is a practical way for a company to behave responsibly rather than waxing lyrical with an ad campaign.

            Did you see the article in today’s Daily Mail HG ? Harry quotes past and present. So many people on the cusp of saying the word ‘narcissism’ without actually saying the word narcissism!

          2. HG Tudor says:

            No, I had not read that.

          3. BC30 says:

            Do you have a link to the article?

    3. Violetta says:

      I think it’s just another variant of Angels With Dirty Faces and Overwhelming Angels. They wanted to stop the Vietnam War because Violence Is Bad, but they’d insult and spit on veterans. Before that, they jumped on the Prohibition bandwagon, and the stories collected by the Calvinist Reverend whose school killed off two Bronte sisters must have turned many of those who survived his school into atheists, if they didn’t believe in God just for the purpose of hating Him. It is always For Our Own Good, whether to save our souls, stop the ravages of addiction on the Sacred American Home, or give peace a chance. If there are any people who sincerely want to stop violence, save the Trees, stop school bullying–and there usually are–the movement will eventually be hijacked by a narcissist, if it isn’t founded by one in the first place (i.e., the BLM founder who apparently based her real estate M.O. on classic blaxploitation film Cotton Comes to Harlem.

      1. Truthseeker6157 says:

        Violetta,

        I think you are probably right. Narcissists have been hijacking causes for donkey’s years. I think I am probably more aware of it now. Secondly the fact they can galvanise across social media makes it feel like they are everywhere. In fairness they are everywhere though. I don’t recall ever being in a position where I have felt the need to monitor what I say as much as I do now. For example, I do not consider myself to be racist in any way shape or form. Now though, to give an opinion on any issue involving a person with a different skin tone to mine, it’s almost as if I am required to prove I am not racist before offering the opinion. Or, there is always the option for me to be unconsciously biased, due to my white privilege.

        Unconscious bias, I get the point of that actually, people likely are unconsciously biased over a whole range of things. I live in the countryside, city dwellers are cold for example. Or, I am from the North, Southerners are soft. You can take it to the nth degree and yes, there will often be bias or stereotypes. The way to break that down though is to encourage conversation, not lay down so much terminology that people don’t know how to speak to one another.

        It feels very much as though if they can’t get you for one thing they’ll get you for another. I love people, I love meaningful conversation, I don’t do small talk. What this does is force separation. People won’t talk, share opinion or debate, because it’s too damn difficult. It isn’t worth the risk. If anyone wanted to segregate a population that’s the way to go about it. Silence them, stop them asking questions then sit back and watch suspicion rise.

        Maybe it has always been the same. Maybe I just didn’t notice. There will definitely be an element of my eyes having been opened as my understanding of narcissism grew, even so though, this woke routine is seriously grinding me down.

        1. Violetta says:

          Where racism is concerned, I’m more and more inclined to HG’s way. I’m beginning to hate everybody. Equally.

          1. Witch says:

            Violetta
            Same!
            I just said to my girlfriend why was a born a human … it’s honestly pointless

          2. SParham says:

            I love that quote in relation to racism! It’s like I root for humankind to get their shit together but I hate them at the same time. I prefer animals any day!

  17. BC30 says:

    Sweet. This is great, and it’s not just me. It has gone way too far. I can’t even share my opinions among some of my communities because of backlash despite my being very, very “Left.”

  18. BC30 says:

    Since there is a biological component are there families that do not have any narcissists?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Yes.

      1. BC30 says:

        Is there a discount for bulk EDCs? 😂 Like 25 or more?! 🤣🤣

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I am open to discussion, email me.

    2. psychologyandworldaffairs says:

      Strange you should ask this. I am not completly sure as I am only going back as far as great grand parents – but I do not seem to have any in my family. I had no idea until a recent debate somewhere else, that the closeness of my family seems not to be the norm. It has made me appreciate what I have.

  19. Caity says:

    Very much enjoyed this. There is a push back, HG, and I hope you address this, also.

  20. lisk says:

    Looking forward to more, HG.

    All my leftie woke colleagues are pure narcissists–always wanting to “help” people and making sure to get credit for it. Always leaving some pretentious quotation in their email signature.

    Ugh, my emotional thinking gets “triggered” with this–less because of their many manifestations of narcissism–but more because so many people fail to see the fake care (verbalizations and acts of help) as a real concern.

    Also, all of these woke narcs are quite privileged–frankly, I don’t think they have anything better to do with all their loads of free time both outside AND inside the work place.

    1. Asp Emp says:

      Lisk, I laughed at what you say in your comment – I totally get what you mean in your last paragraph. They always pretend to work! I have made ‘noises’ about that in the past….. quite right too, especially when I am volunteering my time and they’re sat on their ar*e doing fk all. Yeah, the ones I worked with also made ‘statements’ of “giving help to the more vulnerable people” – it was all boll*cks.

  21. Alexander the Authentic says:

    I love how the video thumbnail is a “Snowflake”………😁.

  22. Asp Emp says:

    This video is brilliant, great to see how long narcissism has existed within humanity with some historical examples.

    RE: the mention of Henry VIII, I watched a programme about him, historians talked more about his characteristics and how he treated people around him. The word ‘narcissism’ was not mentioned yet Machiavellian was.

    My interest and reading about the Tudors during my teens, I now wonder, if I indirectly ‘related’ to what I read on the behaviours, characteristics etc of the Tudors because of my being “different but unique” as described by various people over the years? As a result of my co-morbidity, narcissistic abuse (via mother) and PTSD (loss of father)? I do not actually question it, yet I would not have made the ‘connection’ had it not been for HG’s work.

    Laughing……”being petty over a neighbour boundary” – ah, fk, my experiences on that was bad. I had the shit*est neighbours, ever.

    “It’s a dog eat dog world” – absolutely. It makes people question ‘humanity’, only those who are unaware of the existence, or, the understanding about narcissism.

    Ferdinand and Imelda Marcos, if I may say, are also very good examples of narcissism and the ‘dark triad’, to the extreme.

    HG, this is a really good video and in my view, has a place on my top bookshelf – one of the best I have read. Thank you for producing this piece of work, a ‘key’ part to learning about narcissism and it’s place in the history of humankind. With your education, teaching people about narcissism will enable them to ‘see’ and also possibly better understand (make sense of) infamous people by dictatorship and also somewhat ‘charlatan’ (always using ‘Lieutenants and Coteries’) ‘approach’ towards others during their ‘rule’.

  23. WhoCares says:

    Looking forward to your commentary on this.

  24. Witch says:

    Okay I listened to it whilst travelling because no self control.
    I cannot wait!! Been knew these tyrannical feminist, anti racist, trans by any means, weirdos were narcissists!
    I done exited these SJW circles shortly after discovering narcsite.
    I recently saw a video of west midlands police arresting a 13 year old black boy and people are up in arms saying the way police restrained him was police brutality and racist … and honestly I don’t see it. I mean, it could have been racist but I’m definitely going to need more details before I make that judgment.
    People are saying “he’s just a small little kid” but sorry some kids are not “normal” kids and are narcissists by that age. You really think police have all day to mother your annoying child?
    These new generation of narcissists are different (in that they feel there should be no consequences for anything) because my mum would have told me the police should of boxed me in the face for embarrassing her in public and resisting arrest

    1. Asp Emp says:

      Witch….. no self control? Laughing.

      I agree with what you say RE: children these days, blame the parents & society. There’s been so many changes in a lot of ways yet sometimes it appears that ‘nothing’ changes for the better. Quite a number of people are either angry or disappointed in how it seems that children / teenagers have a lot less ‘respect’. In some countries, that would not be accepted.

      1. Witch says:

        @Asp
        Our police forces in England are probably one of the worlds “softest.”
        That doesn’t mean injustices never occurr but my concern is that a) we are importing American problems and politics and b) any interaction between a white person and anyone else immediately being viewed with suspicion. Now narcs don’t care about being of sound mind but I worry what that will do to the emotional well-being of the rest of us.

        1. Asp Emp says:

          Witch, I am totally in agreement RE: our police force in UK. Too much pc (political correctness, social services, etc etc). Yes, in some countries it can be too regimental, in others, not enough……you made me laff…. but you’re right……. “immediately being viewed with suspicion”.

          RE: “the emotional well-being for the rest of us” – yours is important, then the people around you (coughing slightly here……. obvs not the narcissists….) – yeah, we need more ‘power’ given to the police forces, yet, within reason……… taser up.

    2. A Victor says:

      @Witch, after reading many of your comments on many different threads regarding woke, transgenderism, LBGTQ, racism etc, I have really wanted to express how much I appreciate your additions to the conversations. You present such a balanced view of things and really see the big picture and express it so succinctly. I have enjoyed reading all of your thoughts about all of these current issues.

  25. Witch says:

    Yyyyyaaassss!!!!!!!
    I’m going to listen to this later!
    That tik tok comedy skit:
    “Hey guys”
    “Guys? What about the women?”
    “Tell him sis”
    “Okay, hey guys and ladies”
    “You’re forgetting the transgenders”
    “Okay, hey humans”
    “Human is not a pronoun. What if you had a daughter and someone called her a human?”

  26. A Victor says:

    This is one of my top 2 or 3 favorite videos that you’ve made, perfect timing, solid information. Can’t wait to hear the rest of the series.

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