Just the Way It Is



By now you all know that I am driven by the hunger that rages within me as I must seek out fuel to feed the beast. To begin with, my fuel comes from the compliments and admiration you send my way during our golden period. Yes, that blissful, wonderful time when everything tastes better, smells more fragrant, looks brighter and sounds sharper. I was asked why can I not contain my need for fuel to receiving admiration and plaudits? Why must I embark on such a destructive course which brings mayhem to everyone around me. Why must it hurt so much? A fair question.

In my case, there are two reasons for this. The first brings forth that old adage of familiarity breeds contempt. Imagine that strawberry is your favourite flavour of ice-cream. I bring you a large strawberry ice cream in a sugar cone. You take a lick and it is delicious. So fresh tasting, so creamy and there are even little pieces of strawberry contained inside of it. It simply is the most sumptuous ice cream you have ever introduced to your taste buds. These strawberries have been grown in God’s garden, tended to by angels and grown with the purest water, the most fertile soil and vibrant sunshine. The milk has been taken from cows which graze on nothing but the most verdant grass, free from pollution and contamination. In fact, every ingredient that has been used in the creation of this magnificent iced confection is the best and perfect. Not only that, it has been crafted by the Supreme High Creator of Gelatos. I bring you a second one. Why not? This is an ice cream fit for champions. You eat this second one but by now you are feeling full. I bring a third, the taste is still great but not as good. Now I give you the good news that you are eating strawberry ice cream for breakfast, lunch and dinner and nothing else. Soon, the amazing taste of the ice cream no longer brings you pleasure. In fact, you start to dread the sight of the ice cream as it is brought to you and then it makes you angry that you have to eat it. You are sick of it now, it has lost its allure.

This is what happens to me. It always happens. Since I am wired to seek out instant gratification, even the most wonderful sensations soon pale to me. I am not built for the long-term, I have no desire for longevity. If it was me eating the ice cream, I need to go and seek out mint choc chip or even vanilla or perhaps a juicy steak instead. I need something different in order to give me that hit. Why not then just leave the strawberry ice cream alone and seek out that new taste sensation, why do I have to subject the ice cream to a campaign of savage and nasty behaviour. One reason is that since I have invested so much energy in securing all that strawberry ice cream I am not going to let it go. I need to treat it differently and thus generate a break from its taste. With you, I need to have a break from the now stale praise and admiration you provide to me. It just does not do it for me. Similarly, I have invested energy in ensnaring you and I do not want to let you go. I have to treat you differently to change the dynamic. I need to keep you around so I embark on a confusing campaign that means you cling tighter to me. I will of course be seeking out new admiration from new sources. There are so many flavours for me to taste. You were once shiny and new. Not any longer. Someone else is shinier and newer.

I will return to you, like I will return to the strawberry ice cream. I have forgotten how it sickened me so I will eat it again and wow, it tastes good. Similarly, I will grant you a short return to the golden period. You lavish me with praise and love borne out of relief and I enjoy it. The law of diminishing returns applies however and soon I tire of your admiration as I tire of the strawberry ice cream and once again I must take a break from it, whilst never actually severing ties with you or giving away the ice cream. Back and forth I will go, occasionally being good to you to receive your admiration as I occasionally have a scoop of the strawberry ice cream. Thus this familiarity and unwillingness to let you go means that I have to treat you badly in order to resurrect the positive fuel on an infrequent basis whilst drawing on the negative fuel to provide the contrast.

I mentioned two reasons. The second reason arises from threats to our control. For the most part we dwell in our false construct that we have dragged you into. You may achieve something or a colleague may secure a new contract or we notice a friend purchase a flash, new car. This provides us with a painful reminder of our own limitations and our hatred of the limelight being moved elsewhere, however temporary. In such a case we have to lash out. We must denigrate, despise and demean in order to create that contrast again, we make you look bad and we look good. By putting you down, or the friend or the colleague we feel powerful and in control again. The horrible sensation vanishes. On these occasions, envy and fear drives us to be horrible to you. We have to do it to make ourselves look superior in comparison.

In both instances we need to provide a contrast in order to maintain our fuel. Thus, all cannot be rosy in the garden, we need to spray the weed killer over the flowers you have grown to ensure we receive the fuel that is our primary aim in life.

121 thoughts on “Just the Way It Is

  1. NarcAngel says:

    Hey Alice (TS)

    “How do we know we are us?”

    Girl….pass me one of those mushrooms so I can help you sort it.

    1. Truthseeker6157 says:


      Hahaha. Sorry, none left for you. All gone!


  2. Eternity says:

    Ha ha I am putting it on high volume now and singing it in the shower before I go to work. As long as the dungeon is in the castle I don’t mind. Ha ha

    1. Leigh says:

      Lol! I can’t get it out of my head now. I was just doing laundry and boom, there it is.

      “Don’t give up on your faith. Love comes to those who believe it. And that’s the way it is.”

      Thank you Eternity, lol. Its been stuck in my head for days.

      1. Eternity says:

        Ha ha Leigh, love it! , that’s the way it is , not just the way it is ( error on my part ) I got all my guy friends singing it at the beach yesterday too ! Funny you said that.!
        Cause love’s gonna conquer it all, all!!!

    2. A Victor says:

      Haha, you are brave! I’d rather avoid the dungeon no matter where it is!

      1. Eternity says:

        Ha ha ! A Victor so true eh? Epecially if you can’t Escape . Avoid the dungeon then. SOS

  3. Eternity says:

    I just listened to Celion Dion. Just the Way it is. Great song I I am sure HG will agree.

    1. A Victor says:

      Haha, or he might send you to the dungeon! Risky move, that comment, Eternity!

  4. Norma says:

    Im definitely not Strawberry Ice Cream….lol im more like sea salt dark chocolate. Rich and creamy 😂😂😂

    Ive got some catching up to do on your videos HG…youve been busy.
    Remember what they say about all work & no play.
    Hope you are well. Much love and gratitude to you, as always.

  5. Joa says:

    In a normal relationship, a person moves closer and away in order to maintain their own autonomy as well as keep fresh.

    The narcissistic-empathic dynamics are very, very much deepened.


    RASPBERRY. Raspberry ice cream. Let it be me. Kinda sweet. A bit tart. Micro drupels/seeds can get between the teeth and distrub.

    “Mine” would say that I am not even a waffle 😊

  6. Asp Emp says:

    Reading AV’s comment – the narcissists at work ‘put others down’ all the time. They did it to me. Made me feel that I was the “problem”. FFS. They need a Super-Empath within the work-place to ‘sort’ them out and I hope there is…….(ok, ok, that is an ET ‘spike’ – but that is for people in the future not to be affected as much as I was as a result of those narcissists at work). My ET is fine 🙂

    1. A Victor says:

      Asp Emp,
      “(ok, ok, that is an ET ‘spike’” – giggling! Glad you got it under control!! 😁

  7. Whitney says:

    He is not a Narcissist HG. I am certain about this. He is Narcissistic, but not a Narcissist.

    1. Truthseeker6157 says:

      Hey Whitney,

      Did you have a Narc Detector done on someone? It’s not nice when we get the news we didn’t want to hear. Hope you are doing ok. Xx

  8. A Victor says:

    One of TTU’s standard lines was “People put others down to feel better about themselves.” I didn’t realize until I arrived here that she is the worst offender I know in this regard and also that most people do not do it. I believed her all these years even though I don’t do it, neither do my kids or most people I interact with. That message is being reprogrammed right now, the people who I come across who do do this will be noted and observed for other red flags.

    1. Leigh says:

      Its so true AV. If someone has to insult you to make themselves feel better, it’s a huge red flag. My mother called me today. I picked it up because its never more than 5 minutes. While on the phone she mentioned lotto scratch offs. I told her I would mail her some. She called me a miserable child because I was mailing them and it would take two months to get them. In a 5 minute conversation, she managed to insult me. Guess who won’t be mailing her scratch off tickets now.

      When I said I would mail them, that challenged her and threatened her control.
      In order to get back control, she had to call me a miserable child.

      1. A Victor says:

        Leigh, I had not seen this comment until today, I am so sorry your mom did this to you, it’s the last thing you need when you are already dealing with the other things closer to home. I hope you are okay. And yes, 5 minutes, 2 minutes, 30 seconds, first thing out of her mouth, my mom is the same, it is why I don’t interact with her any more than I absolutely have to. And most of the time I don’t feel guilty about it.

    2. Leigh says:

      AV, the other thread was super long so I figured I’d comment here.

      I got confirmation from Mr. Tudor. My daughter is in fact a narcissist. While it upsets me that I didn’t protect her, Im also angry at my husband. I feel like he did this to her. Then I get angry at myself for staying and putting up with his bullshit.

      I decided to start writing my story. I need to get it out. Maybe once I see it in black and white, I’ll decide to leave once and for all.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        I would advise against writing it out. You know, now it is time to go.

        1. WhoCares says:

          “I would advise against writing it out.”


          Could you elaborate, specifically, on why you would advise against writing out one’s story with the narcissist. Other than it being a breach of no contact. I am asking because it is some I desired to do in the beginning after escaping and I know other empaths who feel that way too – at least at first. It’s as if it helps us see what happened and helps explain bit to others. And wouldn’t doing it once, and then never revisiting it, help with closure that empaths seek?

          Personally, I don’t feel this need anymore. I just would like to hear your input.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Do see my response, WC, to JB.

          2. WhoCares says:

            I did read your answer to JB; very comprehensive. Thank-you for elaborating.

            I agree with you regarding the six months point, – in that, an Empath, may no longer feel the need to write things out.
            Actually, at this point I am completely resentful of the time and energy it takes to do anything or write anything on behalf of my ex (as a consequence of the legal process, or for the benefit of third parties.)

            I am reaching a similar point with regard to images. I recently had my laptop repaired (after 4+ years of sitting) and it is LOADED with images of my relationship (specifically family images). I, at times, desire to collect and preserve some of them – only for the benefit of my son in the future. Specifically when and if his father attempts to smear me to him and suggest that I did all these many horrible and controlling things to his father. I have all the images that show otherwise – all the happy moments, all the beautiful times (I don’t stare at them, I just know they are there). Should I just dispose of them all – or preserve them as proof to my son?

          3. HG Tudor says:

            No, this is evidence. Move them to an external hard drive, label it and place it in a draw or cupboard for later use so you avoid repeated viewings of it, but preserve it should you require it at a later juncture.

          4. WhoCares says:

            Okay! Thank-you HG for your answer.

          5. Asp Emp says:

            WhoCares, HG gave the same suggestion as I would have come up with RE the separate disk / drive. I use a 64GB Scan-Disk for my files and I have not yet loaded them all on my PC that ‘died’ late last year – thankfully I had the files backed up. I am mindful of the changes in technology that can happen at any time, or compatibility with computer operating systems. Good of you to consider for your son in the future. Nice one 🙂

          6. WhoCares says:

            Thanks Asp Emp. Yes it is a good idea.

          7. Joa says:


            it’s not just about evidence. The child will be curious, he will want to dig to the identity (if the contact ceases). Do not throw.

            There was a stage (7-9 years) where my daughter (when she thought I couldn’t see) was constantly going through her father’s photos. Now she doesn’t care at all, and neither does he.

            Unfortunately, she had to come to her own conclusions, because I never said anything bad about him. Lots of happy memories. I also made sure that my family did not criticize.


            I remember telling her that I couldn’t contact him because I didn’t know his phone number or address. And she replied with her innocent voice: “So please call all the phones in the world!” It was so touching. She was about 9 years old. I then wrote to his mother and both sisters and quoted granddaughter / niece. He wrote back. I never showed her the answer, even now that she’s already big. I petrified and it froze me. I don’t want her ever to see it.

            But I hid it. Deep. You never know what will happen. Proof.

          8. WhoCares says:

            Thank-you Joa,

            “Unfortunately, she had to come to her own conclusions, because I never said anything bad about him. Lots of happy memories. I also made sure that family did not criticize.”

            I think you made the right choice by not disparaging your daughter’s father and letting her make her own determination about him.

            It is similar for me. My son’s father is a non-topic. I do not speak good or bad about my ex – I try not to speak at all about him. My son has limited contact with him under supervised conditions, and is beginning to see some peculiarities in his father’s behaviour.

            “You never know what will happen. Proof.”

            That is true.

          9. Joa says:


            unfortunately, I went the other way. Even though the last time he saw her was when she was one, I used to tell happy anecdotes about him for many years. I was lying about reality. I always knew that he would want to meet her someday, and for years I’ve been preparing the ground for it.

            Completely unnecessary. Now that he is back (the daughter is almost 16) she has rejected him.
            He hates it when I talk about him or mention him. She is immediately angry with me.

            You do well to try not to speak. Now I also try not to mention – there is no topic …

          10. WhoCares says:


            Fortunately, we now both know the best way to proceed with a narcissist “co-parent”.

        2. Leigh says:

          With all due respect, Mr. Tudor, I know it’s time to go. Its just easier said then done.

          1. Joa says:


            Ever since I learned to write – I have been writing.
            Not some long stories. Who cares about my life? Only current thoughts, perceptions, desires. There are pieces of paper everywhere, which I later tear and throw away.

            Writing allows me to either let go of myself or organize my feelings. Tidy with yourself.

            It would be hard for me without it. But in your case, and I read a bit about what you wrote about, it’s time to act, not write. You are sitting in the middle of the cyclone.

            You will write when you are safe and calm. Life without a narcissist brings a lot of challenges anyway 🙂

            Don’t blame yourself with your daughter. I went the other way. I raise my daughter without contact with “my” narcissist. Peaceful house. Safe.

            And yet … she can manipulate me perfectly well. Sometimes I see her blue eyes turn to cold, impenetrable steel, just like his.

            She is a teenager and I have the impression that the greatest internal struggle is taking place right now. I don’t know which way she to go yet, but sometimes I have a bad feeling …

            I will love. I will always be grateful for everything I got with her arrival in the world. Soon she would have to go her own way. An empath or a narcissist will have to find their own way of life.

            There is always support. But there will be no slavery.

            Best regards and lots of strength!

          2. Leigh says:

            Joa, I thought writing it out would give me the courage to leave. I want to leave but I feel frozen. I thought if I wrote it out I would be able to figure out why I’m frozen. I’m the doer, I’m the fixer. Why can’t I do this? Why can’t I fix it? Its very unsettling. I don’t depend on anyone or so I thought. Maybe I do depend on people more than I realize.

            Thank you for sharing your situation with your daughter. I’m so sorry you may be going through it too.

            Lots of strength to you as well.

          3. WhoCares says:

            Sorry to keep jumping Leigh, but this:

            ” I thought if I wrote it out I would be able to figure out why I’m frozen. I’m the doer, I’m the fixer. Why can’t I do this? Why can’t I fix it?”

            If they could be fixed, with all the combined efforts, ingenuity and tenacity among empaths – an Empath would have figured out how to fix it/them by now!

            Can’t be done.
            But I know you know this.

          4. Leigh says:

            WhoCares, yes, I know they can’t be fixed. Truthfully, I don’t even care that my mom and husband are broken still. I was referring to me. Why can’t I fix me?

          5. WhoCares says:

            You aren’t broken Leigh. You work just fine. Your nature gets exploited by narcissists. Stay away from them and you will heal, on your own, just fine.
            You are perfect the way you are. They are the ones that make is feel less, like there is something to fix and it’s all our responsibility.
            The wounds heal Leigh – with time and distance from them. And then you realize it’s just about exerting attentiveness to your susceptibilities – and the hell away from them.

          6. Leigh says:

            Thank you WhoCares

          7. WhoCares says:

            It said “an error occurred while moderating” – so I am going to repost the gist of another reply.
            Leigh – you are enough. You are not broken. Your natural inclinations are being exploited by narcissists. There is nothing to “fix” if you stay the hell away from them. At that point you just need to be more attentive to your susceptibilities in order to protect yourself. Your natural way of being and acting in the world isn’t ‘malfunctioning’…you are worn down. We struggle to find our way out of the fog when still in close proximity to them. And you have more than one in close proximity.
            The fog doesn’t clear until you have space and time away.

          8. A Victor says:

            Leigh, the thought that came to my mind on reading your reply to WhoCares was wondering if you have done the EDC? It may prove very helpful in understanding you do what you do, and also to off-set incorrect messages from your past or present. I have found it to be very helpful in this regard. I also apologize for jumping around so much, difficult to keep all the threads straight.

          9. Leigh says:

            AV, I know! There are comments every where…Wordpress seems to be working again. Yes, I’ve done the Emparh and Trait detector. It has helped me immensely! I’ll be getting the Hew to Handle the Parental Narcissist this week.

          10. A Victor says:

            I’m glad Leigh, I found it so helpful. I could only take little bits at a time though and I cried all the way through it. But it was good, really really helpful..

          11. A Victor says:

            Leigh, sorry again, but I saw your reply to me about obtaining the Parental Narcissist package, it might also help you to more fully understand how being raised by your husband your children have been affected, and also for yourself with regard to your parents. It is helpful to me on a daily basis, by applying the principles. ANC is not truly possible when living in the same house, I do the best I can to make it happen and I know that my ET is always a bit more elevated (or a lot more!) than if I didn’t live with her. But, it’s a start.

          12. Joa says:


            don’t feel sorry for me. I love her no matter what. Her smile lights up my world. Although I rarely see him lately 🙂

            I can’t help you but leave … But if someone dared to throw any object at my head, perhaps in front of the child, they would meet my monster. And it wouldn’t be nice. Life has taught me this.

            I don’t know what your financial situation is. Rent an apartment. Make them your own secretly. Slowly, enjoy your choice of curtains, pots, and rugs. I do not know what you like. Have something of yours. Only yours. If it gives you joy and satisfaction, move on step by step.

            I am physically free (great relief). But mentally still trapped (I didn’t expect that).
            It is difficult to advise from this ceiling 🙂

          13. Leigh says:

            Joa, when he threw the object at my head, it wasn’t in front of my children. He has seen my monster on many occasions. He is a narcissist so he its fuel, even its negative fuel. Now I wont give him negative fuel anymore. I refuse too.

            I’m im a good place financially so getting an apartment is attainable. I look forward to the day when I finally have a place of my own.

          14. Joa says:

            Leigh, I really liked your own text:

            “I look forward to the day when I finally have a place of my own.”

            Remember about him 🙂

        3. JB says:

          HG, can I just ask, I know you advise against writing it out and showing it to the narcissist in question (and I understand why that is), but why would it not advisable to write it all down, if it were just used as a way of getting it off one’s chest (for example writing it down then burning it without showing anyone)?

          1. HG Tudor says:

            The majority of people consider doing or do this at an early juncture post disengagement or post escape. The decision is one of flawed logic. It appears logical (get it off my chest, it is cathartic, warning to others etc) but you are being misled by heightened ET which seizes on and corrupts traits such as truth seeker, justice, caring, pride and vanity to compel you to write. Their emotional thinking remains high. Journalling, writing it all out, starting a novel about your experiences is a breach of the no contact regime causing you to enter arenas 3 and 5, possibly also arena 4. This then invites various downsides one of which is increasing your emotional thinking further. This hinders progress to freedom, makes you more susceptible to hoovers, prolongs negative feelings, increase bad decision thinking and elongates the progress. If you want to write about your experiences do so after 6 months of Total No Contact because then the increase in ET will not take you to dangerous levels. However, in all likelihood with that much lowered ET, at this point you will not be interested in writing about it anyway.

          2. lickemtomorrow says:

            I’ve written 15 chapters of what could likely turn out to be a self indulgent tome about my recent narcissistic entanglement. It’s been cathartic in one way. To go back and purge those moments with logic and the understanding I have now. I was not 6 months out and naturally found I could not continue as I attempted to pour out every injustice and confront every deceit. Revisiting good times as well as bad. It had an impact. It made me wonder why I was putting myself through it again. Was it an attempt to remain, rather than escape? It could definitely appear that way. It could also create an option for someone else to identify with the pain, as I do and have done with so many people here, and occasionally elsewhere as well. There is a need for these stories to be told. Both in the fictional sense, as in “Seduction” and “Ensnared” which were another element in terms of how I found myself here, and maybe in a more biographical or autobiographical sense.

            Now further down the road I can consider it all more dispassionately. I’m just not sure I want to spend any more time with the narc I left behind, or allow him to occupy space in my mind anymore. It won’t make any difference to the outcome. It won’t change anything that happened. It will cause me to feel insecure all over again as I revisit how I was duped and how that made me feel. I’ll have to go over the triangulations, the manipulations, the reservations, the consternation, hesitation, the devastation. I’m not sure I want to go over all those ‘ations’ again.

            And I’m glad this topic was brought up for consideration. It’s helpful to know what the drawbacks are and why those mental and emotional roadblocks exist.

          3. JB says:

            Thanks for the detailed explanation, HG.

            I can see how an ongoing account of one’s experiences can keep you locked into ET. That makes me question, am I in effect doing the same through writing on here? It’s a journal of sorts, just on someone else’s blog?

          4. HG Tudor says:

            No because you get logical answers from me. Yes, there is a rise in ET but that is more that outweighed by the benefit of my logic through answers and articles.

          5. Asp Emp says:

            HG, I came across these comments that you wrote in June 2019, on the same thread, I love these comments (in fact, in my view, they are little ‘nuggets of gold’), thought to myself, here is a short answer as to why it is helpful to understand what ET is and basically what you say here is absolutely spot on.

            “The memory is there, it is not afforded energy. This is something many of our victims would do well to learn as a mechanism.”

            “By disciplining oneself to jettison them, substantial progress is made.”

            “One knows what the memory is. It has become redundant or detrimental and therefore must be jettisoned.
            Victims knows they are dealing with a narcissist, yet they revisit letters, texts, memories, pictures etc and doing so gives momentum to the thoughts that manifest with regard to the narcissist. This increases emotional thinking keeping the victim (or increasing the risk of keeping the victim) stuck. It also brings with it unpleasant emotions (anger, fear, upset, hurt etc) which are designed to force the victim into further engagement with the narcissist (more thinking, messaging, engaging in person, talking about them etc). A victim must learn to jettison these thoughts and not give them momentum. By doing so, the thoughts will intrude less and less and it becomes easier and easier to jettison them.”

            What you say as above, it depends on the experiences of the ‘victim’ as to how long it would take for them to put themselves through the ‘re-programming’ process in relation to ET / LT.

            There was a hell of a lot more in my case to ‘sort’ through, compounded with lots of ‘psycho-babble’ in my mind that was, and, is no longer really relevant.

            It was good to find these ‘nuggets of gold’. Thank you, HG.

          6. HG Tudor says:

            Indeed and thank you for airing them once again.

          7. Asp Emp says:

            HG, thank you for your response, much appreciated 🙂

          8. JB says:

            That makes sense, the logic outweighs the ET. Thanks HG.

          9. Bubbles says:

            Dear Mr Tudor,
            You articulated that answer superbly and with clear definition, thank you
            Out of interest, why then, does a narcissist do the same ?
            My mum has a diary for each year. When I came back into her life, she shredded copious pages from each one and put a spell on the rest, should ‘anyone’ dare read them. I’d say she’s referring to me !!! I have no interest in reading them whatsoever.
            Our ‘dear old friend’s’ bully narc brother wrote his ‘life memoirs’ “to clear his name and set the record straight once and for all” before he kicks the bucket. He then proceeded to hand a copy to all involved n sundry.
            I happened to be mentioned in it, however, from my perspective, he appeared to have just big noted himself.
            All he did was upset and anger those involved from all his lies and made up stories and further isolated himself.
            Why ?
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          10. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I just saw this comment. It’s interesting that you went through that process. What’s more interesting is your view on it now. I think it confirms HG’s point. Writing everything out is largely driven by ET. I think there is an element of holding on by reliving the past events too. I did that mentally and for too long.

            I didn’t write anything down but I definitely used the blog to get things out of my system. I do think that’s different. Commenters answer, HG answers so there is less opportunity to wallow. Writing or journaling allows too much room for us to drag ourselves down when we really need to be hauling ourselves back up. I’m all for allowing ourselves to sink for a while, I think empaths kind of need that, but only to a point, then it’s time to move forward again.

            I’m glad you are at the point where you feel that you don’t need to write any more. They don’t deserve all the mental space we give to them. Once we understand more about narcissism and why we behaved the way we did I think that’s enough.

            You’re right, over analysing does lead to injured pride and damaged confidence. I think it’s normal to question if we would behave similarly again in the future. I’m confident the answer to that is no. Particularly given the fact we now have the option to run new arrivals to our social circle past HG if we feel unsure. The Ultra doesn’t make mistakes. It’s comforting to know that going forward we can stop things before they start. There’s no need for us to test our resolve or knowledge. I’m happy to hand over the reigns to HG to make the call on questionable interactions. I’m a decent narc spotter, but I’m not as good as HG. Let him make the call would be my approach. No way I’m getting caught again!

          11. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, thanks for your response. Writing it out was meant to purposeful in so many ways, including being cathartic, a warning to others, and also satisfying a sense of vengeance on my part! Or at least ensuring an element of justice. It was also an exploration of the narcissistic dynamic, how I experienced that, and everything I learned. There is a place for stories such as these, I believe. Much like the blog, it creates an option for people to identify with the experience and hopefully find their own way out of it. I have to agree, the blog prevents an element of wallowing as we interact and allow ourselves to be lifted out of the worst of our despair. And it can be indulgent to stay in that place, even with a more altruistic purpose in mind. We con ourselves sometimes.

            I’m not sure I won’t write about it, I still feel the need to explore it in some ways. At the same time, I have discovered much about myself on the blog and in my interactions here. I’ve shared things I’ve never shared before, allowed myself free reign emotionally, and benefited from others doing the same. It’s brought me to a better place. I just need to decide if my contribution begins and ends here. For now, I probably need to rest where I’m at in this place. I can’t seem to sense any forward movement, but for the most part I’m not backsliding either. I’m stable, I think 😛

            And it’s definitely good to know we have HG in our corner going forward. It’s a huge bonus for those of us who don’t want to get caught again in the future. Indulging in our misery could just keep us stuck, so that’s a little like still being caught in the past.

            I’m having a living in the present moment today 🙂

          12. lickemtomorrow says:

            Oh my, *rein*, not reign. Only HG reigns in this place 🙂

          13. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I think your motivation for writing was honourable. I tend not to write things down, which sounds odd because I am fairly prolific here! I very much keep everything buried as a general rule. Not here though and for very similar reasons to you.

            The blog and the articles provide understanding and clarity as to the mechanics of narcissism and ensnarement. What I didn’t expect to find was others like me. I was unconsciously incompetent when it came to myself. Not in all aspects, but in many. Talking with others here has provided additional understanding and the EDC and TDC have really helped me in my day to day life, not just with recovery. I do put a lot of pressure on myself in many ways. I’m learning to recognise those behaviours and manage them better I think. So writing here has had additional benefits for me. The empath side to HG’s work is vital in my view and it’s what further sets him apart from other ‘specialists’ in the field.

            If writing works for you, now that you are further on in recovery then it’s probably ok, but if you feel your mood sink in line with your writing, then my view would be it might be holding you back rather than freeing you to move forward. I would hate that to be the case.

            Neither one of us talk much about the future. I do know where mine leads and I am content with it. I don’t know if you are the same. Not everyone talks about the now or the tomorrow but I think it’s good to formulate a rough draft of what your future looks like, just in your own mind. It’s another way of consigning the past to the past and it makes the action part of moving forward a little easier.

            I’m glad today is a forward looking day. Me too. That could have something to do with having my hair done yesterday. Dayum I look hot. Haha! ( I am starting to quite enjoy my pride and vanity!)

          14. lickemtomorrow says:

            Definitely writing here benefits us, TS, as it is in the process of writing that we make discoveries about ourselves. We could keep our thoughts to ourselves all day, every day, but letting them out give them a little breathing space to begin to formulate both in our own minds and also with input from others. It’s both a giving and receiving in that sense.

            “I like the feeling of being able to confront an experience and resolve it as art”

            Eudora Welty

            This quote probably says a lot about my thinking. That narc likes to use these quotes, so that’s how I discovered it.

            Anyway, the question to resolve is the one around emotional thinking. I’m more than 12 months out. No completely NC for that time period. Definitely something to keep an eye on going forward. For now, I’m undecided. What I don’t want to be is self indulgent. That’s for a diary. But it’s from a diary of sorts the thoughts can be lifted and translated into something more meaningful for others as well.

            And I don’t look forward. I make no plans right now. I’m like a ship on the ocean whose wind has been taken out of its sails. Somewhat drifting. I’m waiting for the wind to pick up again, and then I will know where I am going 🙂

            Sounds like you just put some of the wind back in your own sails, TS 😉

          15. Joa says:

            After breaking up with the narcissist, I wrote a lot of poems. It helped me a lot. I left the best and I have no intention of throwing it away. They are part of my life.

            I also have his letters. I don’t go back to them, but they are. In old age, in the decline of life, they will be perfect for reading. Amazing energy emanates from it all. If I ever miss her, it will be just right 🙂

            I have a lot of cookie cans containing all sorts of mementos of many people.

            So far, I rarely come back to it. I’m still too young 🙂

          16. Truthseeker6157 says:


            It sounds like you are holding position. Out of the real sadness and confusion but just holding position for now. I think that’s ok. You can’t force a moving forward, otherwise we just play at it. I did that quite a lot. Played at being me. It doesn’t really get you anywhere, other than it kept me functioning.

            I found something interesting the other day in my jaunt down the rabbit hole. I began looking at the concept of self, what it is exactly, where it comes from. How we know we are us etc. In honesty, it’s a very deep rabbit hole but my take on it was that the self isn’t a fixed entity. It changes based on experiences and interactions within our environment. The me today is different to the me 6 months ago yet I am still me. My view of self therefore has changed and will change next week but my core drivers if you like, they’ll stay the same. Self is formed from patterns of behaviours and importantly, memories. Memories provide consistency. Similarly we need feedback from our environment. If we walked through life ignored for a month, we would start to question our sense of self. So we need the society of others.

            This sounds like there is little way to change the sense of self because it’s largely backward looking. We will send experiences that don’t fit our internal narrative / sense of self into our unconscious mind. Those that do fit, remain in our conscious mind.

            So how to change our perception of self? We have to make new memories and make them consciously so that we accept new behaviours as part of our conscious self. So, when we have those dark or self critical moments where we feel angry or frustrated by our treatment at the hands of various narcissists and we feel angry at ourselves for staying or being pulled back in, it’s important to remember that that was us then. It isn’t us now. We are empaths and share core drivers and an addiction but we have the capacity to learn, move forward and amend our behaviours and therefore our perception of our self.

            Holding position I think is an honest route to take, similarly, moving forward incorporating new healthy interactions with others whilst making new healthy memories to refer back to has to be instrumental in recovery. We can’t force it, we will hold position until ready to move, but it’s a bridge we need to cross in order to fully recover. Rightly or wrongly that was my take thus far on a hellishly complicated rabbit hole.

            As far as crossing the bridge is concerned, not sure exactly where I am other than, as usual, I appear to have auto piloted my way onto it, so I assume I’ll autopilot my way over it!

            Hope this helps xx

          17. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hi TS, I did mention here recently I am in a holding position. That is partly because of recognizing that narcissism goes back to my very beginnings. It has impacted my childhood, my marriage and my most recent relationship. My entire life has been spent entangled with narcissists. Which is confronting. I’ve spent a lot of time absorbing what HG is imparting here, some time venting, and much time in reflection. It’s eventually created a more ‘neutral’ positioning for me, though there will still be moments of high ET as well. In some ways I’m still trying to take on board how that has affected me. I guess it’s not a lack of willingness to move forward as much as a need to absorb what has happened in the past. Only because I’ve never lived a life where I haven’t been impacted. I had years between my marriage and the last narc, but there were still narcs to tackle in the family, in the workplace. They are everywhere. And, of course, I’ve been a fuel tanker for all of them. I’m exhausted! Which is where the last experience has caused me to want to more fully insulate myself against them. Which means withdrawing. I’ve lost so much trust. I don’t believe anywhere I go now, or anything I do, will not be affected by narcissism. It’s so incredibly hostile. At last that’s how I experience it for the most part. It’s hard to want to venture out again into hostile territory. Maybe I need to change my viewpoint. Or maybe just feel more fully armed to combat it. I think my emotions are still catching up with my understanding in some ways. My sense of trust will have further to go. Being in a neutral place is beneficial. It could be worse!

            I see we can’t you away from those rabbit holes, TS 😉 Just as well I enjoy them as much as you x

            Always interesting to read your thoughts and I will ponder these as well.

            For now, you make a good point about the bridge that we all need to cross to make a full recovery <3 You're 'autopilot' seems to be acting efficiently 🙂 I'll trust mine to do the same when the time is right xox

          18. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey LET,

            Confronting. It must be. To look back at various relationships, key relationships but also friends, work colleagues, bosses, neighbours even and realise that there are narcissists throughout must feel like you have been cheated the whole way along. Not really even been given a fair chance at being happy. When there are so many narcissistic influences they probably become normalised. No hope of recognising the next narc that shuffles into your life because why would you? That’s just what people are like and how relationships work isn’t it? Nothing would stand out as odd, no real tells, just more of the same.

            Even when we do notice something is off, the ET glosses over it. That’s probably the most frustrating part I think. Even when we do see, we excuse. As ACONS I can’t see any other option but to be ensnared at least once just because of this normalisation. Sadly it would appear that for most it’s rarely just the once.

            The knowledge I gained here felt like an awakening. For some it must feel like a massive life overhaul. Like someone saying “Forget everything you knew or were told up until this point. That was all wrong about the world being spherical. It’s actually flat. On you go and have a nice day.” Everything you knew about any kind of relationship was actually wrong.

            It was almost predestined from the start that you would be ensnared. It’s not inevitable now but I agree it’s always a risk. I saw a comment from Alexis the other day about trust. She commented that she gives people varying levels of trust. Some people she trusts not to talk about her behind her back, someone else she might trust to usually do the right thing. Levels of trust. I would say that I don’t trust. I think actually I mean I don’t trust fully. Alexis described it better.

            I think you are fully justified in not trusting but I also see that as a positive rather than negative thing. Trust needs to be earned and that takes time. You haven’t lost an ability to trust, you are perhaps just less likely to trust fully and again, I see this as a good thing. My trust issues can get in the way at times, but overall I think they serve me well. So don’t be too concerned about a loss of trust. Hopefully it’s more a loss of trusting too readily.

            You deserve your break in your safe place. Too right you do! Go to your corner, then, when the time is right, make sure you come out swinging! Haha! (not the keys in a bowl swinging. Obviously)

            It must seem that there are narcs everywhere when they have repeatedly infiltrated your life. I can promise you there a good people out there too though, shed loads of them! So when you are ready and your defences are fully galvanised, come find me on the bridge. I’ll probably still be on it staring up at the sky, or distracted by the view of another rabbit hole I can just make out in the distance!


          19. lickemtomorrow says:

            Haha, TS, your “come out swinging” (not the keys in the bowl type) has me laughing 🙂 It took me a minute 😛

            I think you describe it well when you say “a massive life overhaul”, which is exactly what it is. Everything you thought you knew, the basis of your consternation and dissonance, now has a reasoning and an answer. In that sense, it is mindblowing!

            I have literally walked through life without any awareness, and it reminds me of a game that is played where you stand someone blindfolded in the centre of a circle of people and spin them around to disorient them. That’s my experience. My whole life I’ve been spun around and disoriented, thanks to narcissists. The intitial exposure created the necessary disorientation for me to continue along the path of reaching out blindly for answers.

            I’m not blind any more. Someone took the blindfold off. Now I am dismayed. Is this the world as it really is? Was I that conned into believing in the goodness of others? Only to have that ripped away unceremoniously time and time again? This awakening adds a layer of cynicism to how I view the world now. Which also lends itself to a lack of trust. Maybe that is emotional thinking (ET), or maybe it is getting in touch with reality instead of opting to put the blindfold back on again because I don’t want to see the world as it really is. It’s impossible not to feel devastated at times.

            The comparison to now being told the world is flat is probably apt. In other words, forget everything you thought you knew. It’s in the narcissist’s bag of tricks to both deceive and, in this case, relieve I guess. I never expected my ‘relief’ to come from a narcissist. There’s one for the books! But I’ll take it for the one true explanation for basically the majority of my life experiences up to now. And how I walked blindly into each and every one of them. The relief will go further as I learn to navigate this new world (or this flat earth). It will be akin to not falling off the edge <3

            Thank you for the invite to meet you on the bridge xox I'm actually a little teary at the reminder of the fact good people do exist. I feel like I've met so few of them lately (in real life), but that's probably because I've chosen to hide myself away at this moment in time. It will be a combination of both trusting myself (to have learned the lesson) and trusting others (who will have earned it) in terms of moving forward. I will hopefully see you there, and I'm expecting to be looking down into those rabbit holes with you 🙂 Looking at the stars would also be a nice break from the rabbit holes xox

          20. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I was thinking about you today. Playing taxi to my daughter (again). When we talk about moving forward, it’s almost like the launch of a luxury liner. Yesterday we weren’t moving forward, but today we are moving forward ( smash of the champagne bottle). What is moving forward though really? I suppose the answer is that it means different things to different people. The reality is it’s not really a big event, or at least it doesn’t have to be. It’s gradual and kind of sneaks up on you. You go out a bit more, do the things you enjoy and meet new people that start as acquaintances or outer circle friends and over time some gradually become closer.

            In many ways I’m enjoying outer circle friends or acquaintances most at the moment. I think that’s the hangover from Covid due to us all avoiding each other for so long. I’m out and about and just chatting to people again. There’s no requirement to meet up for coffee or drinks just nice conversations while I’m in the place I’m in. There’s a lovely lady in the gym who cheers me on when I’m with my trainer. I chatted with her the other day. It turns out she did teacher training in the town where I was born. In fact I was probably born at the time she did her teacher training! This old guy came over and joined in, big broad guy carries a stick. He used to be a sheep farmer, owned land all over the place. Explained how his family built up the farm etc. Told me all about his sheep! I didn’t get through my training that day, but it was a lovely conversation. Really warm people. Content just to be having a chat and a laugh. Little encounters like that fill my battery and make me feel more positive about people again. Ordinary, every day, but nice.

            So really I don’t think that moving forward has to be anything other than you want it to be. For me it’s less dwelling on what has been and just getting out and about a bit more, having a chat, meeting people, doing things I want to do. Pleasing myself I suppose. For others it involves bigger changes, but by and large the principle is similar. We just start getting out and about again.

            When the time is right. 😘


          21. lickemtomorrow says:

            Thank you for your kind and thoughtful comment again, TS <3 My days of taxiing (is that how you spell it?) are more or less over … you have my sympathies 😉

            I like analogies, and the launching of a ship is a good one. It's all about momentum. And while it may seem minimal at the start, there is no reason to believe it will stay that way. I like your example, too. Meeting up with random people as you go about your day, not necessarily planning. That is one way just to ease into life again after both the restrictions imposed by Covid and the effects of narcissistic entanglement. In some ways it's been a double whammy, though the time out has afforded me an opportunity to confront my experience/s which I wouldn't have had otherwise.

            I'm probably better, as you suggest, to consider those random and less meaningful connections as a way to move forward out of my partially self-imposed exile. Anything else seems too threatening right now. The idea of getting close to anybody is almost beyond my comprehension. This last narc felt almost like a knockout punch when I was gearing up to start my life over again after raising my family. There couldn't be a more cruel joke in some respects. And the pure callousness of it as well. Even if it was not by design.

            The narcissist doesn't know what he is. Bully for him!

            The most important thing now is that I know what he is.

            And if I'm going to move forward it will be on that basis.

            Being here at least gives me a little more confidence xox

          22. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I can understand why the last narc must have been particularly hurtful. A point in your life that was almost a new start, screwed up by another narc. It does make me angry how they just rock up and ruin things, rather, destroy things. It takes us a while to get over things, to get out then wind up in a similar position again wasn’t fair. I get why you are cautious after all that.

            Getting close to someone again is something that most want. I don’t see that as a necessity necessarily. Enjoying life is a necessity though, whatever happens on the back of that, new people friendships etc, I tend to see as a bonus.

            I agree COVID and the periods of self isolation made it tougher in that you can kind of get used to the isolation. It almost becomes habitual after a while. Having to wear masks further cut down whatever limited human contact there was. Thankfully here that has now changed. We no longer have to wear masks in most places. People are talking again, making time for each other. The upside from that has led to me feeling far more positive I think. I appreciate my life more in many ways than I did before COVID. Bloody tough way to teach us that lesson though!

            I think you can only do what feels right, just try not to cut yourself off too much. Small steps can make a big difference to the way we feel. Xx

          23. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hey TS, it was the combination of having waited so long and gearing up to a new beginning … that was the one-two knockout punch which left me devastated. I waited that long just to get shafted again?? I thought I had my ducks in a row. I wasn’t looking. I know I’ve said all this before, but it still beggars belief in my mind.

            And I know it was because I was so open at that stage to finding love again. That’s the only explanation. I left myself wide open for abuse. Now I know I had an addiction that also fed into my vulnerability. That’s the other one-two element. Open to love and addicted to love.

            It’s probably why I went Supernova on him in the end. Because he’d taken those tender dreams I’d begun to nurture again after so long and just crushed them. Effortlessly. Without a care. Minus conscience. Lacking remorse. In this moment, I hate him all over again for what he did and how he did it. He devastated me.

            Right now I could take BC30’S metal bat to his piñata, and I thank her for the thought <3

            I was on the friendship trajectory when I got caught the last time, TS, but it's also the one that makes the most sense in terms of moving forward. Getting too far ahead of myself in terms of thinking about relationships is only holding me back … I'm scaring the sh*t out of myself! And it's keeping me locked in my self-imposed prison. So I appreciate your thoughts again today. They are a timely reminder xox

            I'm so glad to hear you are feeling more positive <3 And you have a summer break to look forward to as well 🙂 I hope you make the most of both those things xo

          24. BC30 says:

            Ok, but what is the consensus on taking metal bats to piñatas?

          25. A Victor says:

            Not sure the reason for your question but I say go for it. Anything that ends the misery quicker has to be alright. #notapinatafan.

          26. Asp Emp says:

            BC30, does there need to be a ‘consensus’? 7 should do it & one extra for good measure 😉

          27. BC30 says:

            Hahahaha. Oh yeah I beat that piñata 🪅 it was hilarious fun

          28. Asp Emp says:

            BC30, I bet it was ‘hilarious’ fun 😉 Were any chairs involved? Laughing…..

      2. WhoCares says:

        By the way Leigh, I wasn’t disregarding your news, I responded elsewhere. I don’t really know what else to say right now. I just feel for you.

        1. Leigh says:

          I know WhoCares. I don’t know what to do with the news either. There really isn’t anything to say. I just have to accept it for what it is. At this point, I’m really just existing. Every time I turn around, there’s another narcissist and I’m just tired.

          1. WhoCares says:


            It’s okay to let the information sit for a while. At least you now have the definitive answer. You don’t have to decide what you’re going to do, at this time. As the information settles, you might know better where you’re at with this news.

            The last time I got a positive confirmation from an NDC, I was sad and thinking of how to manage contact with this individual, as I am reticent to lose contact with her empath spouse (who has been a good male role model for my son). However, repeatedly, I am finding that I only feel anxiety over the thought of how to manage that relationship – while trying to not get in sucked in to more contact. And I am actually more able to manage any residual guilty feelings, which are the product of instituting No Contact at this time…if I only feel heightened anxiety at the thought of reaching out to them – why would I act on that? (Sorry, this is not specifically helpful for your situation – but I am asking myself this question as I write to you.)
            I just know for myself, going no contact simply means less expenditure of emotion, energy etc, vs. low contact and the ensuing anxiety over that. I am trying not to allow any needless stress in my life – and (for me) it gets easier to do no contact with each round.

          2. Leigh says:

            WhoCares, its a scary thought thinking that my daughter causes me anxiety. The truth is, she does. That feeling in the pit of the stomach sucks. I already avoid spending time with her. That’s how I knew she was a narcissist.

            For now, I won’t make any decisions with regards to her. I’ll just keep her at an arms length for now.

            MP gave me something to think about. Maybe I have abandonment issues??? I need to find a way to find the strength to leave my husband. Thats the ultimate goal.

          3. WhoCares says:


            Haven’t you said you are not afraid of living alone and that your ideal outcome would be if your husband were to leave you? (Unless I misread or attributed someone else’s comment to you.)

            Wouldn’t you be afraid to live alone AND fear the event of your husband leaving if you had abandonment issues?

          4. Leigh says:

            Its interesting. I’m not afraid of being alone. Ideally, I WOULD want him to leave. I think the abandonment issue is that I don’t want my children feel the abandonment I felt when my dad left. Maybe 🤷‍♀️

          5. WhoCares says:


            None of us (who left) intentionally wanted our children to only have one parent – I think that is why many, if not most, (other than the addiction) do stay : because they believe that a child is better off with two parents. I used to believe this. But the positives of having two parents doesn’t outweigh the negative of having a narcissist parent.
            On the plus side, your children are adults so I don’t think they would be affected by the loss of a parent as much as a young child.

            A further plus – whatever perceived loss there is, as a result of ditching a narcissist parent, is made up for by having a fully functioning, fully present empathic parent, whose ability to parent isn’t being impacted by ongoing abuse.

          6. Leigh says:

            WhoCares, I agree with you 100%. I wish I would have left especially now that I see how my daughter turned out.

            When my dad left, it wasn’t to protect me. He was a narcissist that used his fists to discipline me and my brothers. Then he left me with my mother, a victim narcissist. I’m really quite screwed up in the head, lol. You will see that I like to poke fun at myself every once in awhile. I have to do it to lighten the mood. Nobody likes a cry baby. “There’s no crying in baseball.” That’s a great line, lol.

            Anyway, I wanted to address a comment you made about having contact with an empathic male role model for your son. His spouse gives you anxiety and you’ve confirmed she’s a narcissist so you are considering going no contact. I was thinking about your situation this morning. What if you’re supposed to be in this males life in order to help him escape? I think the universe places us in these situations for a reason. Maybe this male is here in your life to help your son and for you to help him as well???

            As for me, I obviously must get something out of taking care of my husband and that’s why I’ve stayed. In all fairness though, I just learned he was a narcissist last September and we’ve been together for 36 years. Plus, I move at a snail’s pace.

          7. WhoCares says:


            “He depletes my energy and I know that’s not healthy either.”

            This can be potentially more dangerous – we underestimate the damage because it doesn’t appear overt…so we stay, because we can ‘manage’ it… because there are ‘worse things’.*

            *Couldn’t locate a reply on the other thread Leigh.

          8. Leigh says:

            WhoCares, you hit the nail on the head. I stay because I can manage it and the damage isn’t overt. Its a scary thought to think about what kind of damage its causing. Thank you. Sometimes I need these things brought to my attention.

          9. WhoCares says:

            We do need these things brought to our attention Leigh.

            I remember – after I escaped, shut my narc out of my life and retrieved my cat – sitting in the safety of a friend’s basement, my cat (who was traumatized too) crawled on to my lap (I had not held him, petted him nor seen him in long while) and started purring. It resonated on my belly, and it made me conscious my own breathing and lack of itt depth and I realized that I had been breathing shallowly (not taking full breaths) for so long that it felt normal. I had been effectively holding my breath for so long – I didn’t realize how long I had been functioning in crisis mode. It became my ‘normal’…and it is amazing how I tolerated that for so long. When I look back and compare how I feel now, I really don’t know how I was coping, under those constraints, to be honest.

          10. WhoCares says:

            “its a scary thought thinking that my daughter causes me anxiety. The truth is, she does. That feeling in the pit of the stomach sucks.”

            That is what they do best; they cause us anxiety.

          11. JB says:

            I’m so sorry, Leigh. I can feel how exhausted you must be with it all. I just wanted to let you know I am thinking of you xx

        2. Duchessbea says:

          Sending you Hugs and Much Love. Hope you are doing okay.

      3. A Victor says:

        Leigh, I know, I saw it elsewhere and responded on yet another thread. I so understand the anger, at both him and yourself. Please try not to be angry with yourself, you had no idea what was happening, what he was or what it could do to her. You we’re a loving mother, you did the best you could, the best you knew to do. You cannot change anything of the past nor what is for either your husband or your daughter. Only for your other children and yourself. And possibly future grandchildren. You have written in black and white here, on this blog, HG has valid reasons for his recommendation, I am hoping you will consider a consult to discuss that as well as how to best handle your daughter now. I don’t know if the NC holds when it is our children. I am so sorry, my heart is hurting for you so much right now, mother to mother.

        1. Leigh says:

          She is an adult so technically I can go no contact. I don’t know if I’m able to do that quite yet though. For now, I’m taking it one day at a time.

          1. BC30 says:

            ODAT is a wise way to live. ❤️ BTW, if you feel the need to journal, do so. I find that burning the pages helps me. I am not quite sure that contact with all narcissists is necessarily harmful, particularly if you have your wits about you.

          2. A Victor says:

            You will know in time what is best. I have read good thinking here, one day at a time, sit with it for a while, maybe back away but not complete NC at least to start etc. I hope you have, or take, the time to funnel out what you need, let the rest go, at least for now. You need to be easy on yourself, as Asp Emp said, this is a shock for you. Technically being able to go NC is very different than practically being able to, in some cases, I think children qualify for that sometimes, even when they’re adults. But, you know how she makes you feel so now my hope for you is that you will not feel guilt if you choose ANC or NC. I don’t know if HG has an assistance package to help with adult children who are narcissists. His assistance package regarding parental narcissist’s explains very well how to do ANC, it may be a thought for you to purchase that, if you haven’t already. You have good intuition Leigh, you know what you need if you can see through your ET, which it seems you are doing more also. Hang in there, sending hugs.

          3. Leigh says:

            AV, thank you for your suggestion about the parental assistance package. That will be the next thing I purchase. ANC is the best I can hope for with my daughter. The good thing is that I will only ever be a NISS so maybe my devaluations will be few and far between.

          4. A Victor says:

            Leigh, your comment about the abandonment issues up above makes so much sense, and not wanting your children to feel what you did as a teenager. Isn’t it interesting how our pasts can influence or dictate so much of our present? That is one of the biggest and most interesting things I have learned here. And, the good news is that we don’t have to let it keep speaking into our futures, we can address it and make different choices going forward. I hope it is okay to say this now, it is exciting to me but I understand you may not be in a good place to hear it at this time. For me it is hope-giving, in a good way.

          5. Leigh says:

            Hi AV, I believe we keep making the same mistakes until we learn the lesson. Its interesting because I feel like I’ve learned the lesson somewhat. Now its time to stop making the same mistakes. Like you said, its time to make different choices. Its time to leave my husband once and for all.

            Its is good to hear your thoughts on this and how the changes you’ve made has brought you to a much more positive space. It definitely gives me hope. Thank you!


      4. Bubbles says:

        Dearest Leigh,
        Please NO NOT write your story ….. you DON’T need to get it out
        Take Mr Tudor’s advice
        It could come back and bite you in the bum with big repercussions
        NO NO NO NO NO …….DON’T
        Said with luv Bubbles xx 😘

        1. HG Tudor says:


        2. Leigh says:

          Bubbles, I have decided not to write it. I realized it would just raise my emotional thinking. I don’t want to do that. I thought it would help me release it but I see that it was my emotional thinking really wanting me to think about it and hold on to it.

          1. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Leigh,
            Phew !!!
            Wise decision 😍
            Talk it thru here instead ☺️
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          2. BC30 says:

            Do what you think is best for you. If you do not think journaling is a good idea, do something else to release. (BTW is that your first avi? I think so. I like it.)

          3. Leigh says:

            Yes my first avi. I googled angel wings pictures and I saw that and was drawn to it immediately.

            I’m afraid to journal now, lol. The first 3 pages were about Workplace Narc and now I’m thinking about him again.

            Mr. Tudor is right. Its a bad idea. Especially now that I’m so vulnerable. I could see me easily getting involved again with Workplace Narc and I do not want to do that.

          4. BC30 says:

            It’s up to you, but do not bottle up your emotions, please. ❤️

            Side note, when I went NC I gave my journals to a friend who lives about one our away. I read them about one year later and HOLY FORKING SHIRTBALLS BATMAN! I was one hot fucking mess. 😬 There was one particularly painful entry during a weekend in October that I suffered an AST. That was especially rough to read. But I am glad I had them to look back upon. I will I again give anyone control over me. Much like my second favorite film, “Labyrinth” Anyhow YMMV, but I enjoyed burning my journals. 🔥🔥🔥

          5. BC30 says:

            I can’t find your recent comments, but I have read them. However, I’ve only been able to read on my phone, so it’s been haphazard. I did read that you have started looking for apartments. Words fail me. I cannot articulate how I feel for you, it may not make sense, but this song came to mind: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xELiAKmH6hQ

          6. Leigh says:

            Yes, I’m actually looking at apartments today. I’ve talked to a lawyer. Thank you for your support!

      5. Alexissmith2016 says:

        I’m really sorry to read your daughter is an N Leigh that must be awful for you.

        Don’t be too hard on yourself about it, genetics play a huge role in this. As empaths we’re naturally very good at self flagellation. There truly is little you could have done to have changed this. And the past is done. Any amount of wishing it was different or living with regret is not going to make any difference at all so why beat yourself up. I guess, it is what is is and as HG says, just GOSO. Huge hugs from me to you.

      6. Eternity says:

        Leigh, I just read your comment . I am so sorry about your daughter. This must be very hard for you. Don’t be angry. It is not your fault. Don’t waste anymore time you need to leave this man. You do see it now Leigh in full colour ! Try and stay strong. One you know you go,get out and stay the fuck out ! Hugs

      7. WiserNow says:

        Hi Leigh,

        Just wanted to say I’m very sorry about your daughter. I’ve seen your comments about her. When it’s someone in your immediate family, it is complicated and heart-wrenching. I can imagine you must be feeling very torn and awful about it.

        For what it’s worth, please don’t be angry or upset at yourself. It’s not your fault and you did what you thought was the best thing to do at the time. I don’t think you could have ‘protected’ your daughter from it either.

        As we know from HG, the making of a narcissist takes both a genetic predisposition as well as environmental factors. It takes both of those things, however, I believe the genetic predisposition is there as a biological blueprint and it tends to play a bigger role overall than the environmental factors. I don’t have the scientific proof of this – it’s just my experience and gut feelings. After seeing family members who grew up in the same environment around the same people, some became narcissists while others didn’t, so I think genes or biology has a lot to do with it.

        Also, there are a whole range of things that make up ‘environmental factors’. It’s not just the influence of a mother or father, but other people too, as well as school experiences, friends and peers, TV, internet, social media, and general social influences etc. Nobody can protect someone when it comes to all those things.

        In this situation, it’s even more important that you protect yourself and focus on your own emotional thinking. There may be questions going through your mind, like ‘why?’ and even wishful thinking or wanting to fix or change things.

        I remember when another commenter here (K) once told me, “it is what it is”. That helped me to accept the situation I was in. It made me see that things happen that are difficult and unfair and unwanted, however, we can’t change them. As this post says, it’s ‘just the way it is’.

        I feel for you Leigh, it’s a harsh reality. Please remember though, that you are the only one who can look after your own peace of mind, your sanity and your health. It helps to develop strong boundaries, your own personal values, and an inner sense of you protecting yourself. Best wishes to you 🙂

      8. Asp Emp says:

        Leigh, I’d like to suggest that you have already ‘shared’ your story. It is on this blog. You know what to do. Start living your life. We are all here to support you, including HG, most of all, him. Look after yourself, Leigh x

      9. Leigh says:

        Thank you everyone for your kind words and support. I don’t want to hog the comments. Although, I’ve actually already done that, lol.. Sorry Mr. Tudor.

        WiserNow, it’s funny that I picked this post to comment about my daughter. It wasn’t intentional but its the truth. Its “Just the Way It Is.” I liked “K”. I often think of her and hope she’s doing well.

        Alexis/Eternity, I don’t blame myself completely. I blame my husband much more and my anger is more towards him. My daughter was up against insurmountable odds. Both my parents are narcissists too.

        Sweet P, keeping minimal contact ot almost no contact is probably the best I can do right now with my daughter. The good thing is that all I can ever be is a NISS so maybe the devaluation won’t be as bad. I know how to handle devaluation with my husband and my mother. They are victim narcissists. My daughter is not.

        Thank you everyone again. I really so appreciate everyone’s kind words.

        1. Asp Emp says:

          Ahh, Leigh. You needed us all. We responded. Say as much as you need, that is why HG created this space for us to do so. And, it will help others in the future – your contribution counts too. X

        2. A Victor says:

          Leigh, you are not hogging comments, you are getting support. If you need a break take it, when HG isn’t moderating we have breaks, but if you need to lean here, that is okay. It is good for all of our learning and hopefully helpful to you.

        3. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Hey Leigh,

          I saw your comment about the result of your daughter’s NDC yesterday. I wanted to think about it for a while before responding. I can appreciate that this was not the result you were hoping for. I think there is another way to look at it too though.

          As mothers, the thing that we hope for our kids is just that they’ll be ok. They’ll navigate their way through life, and they’ll be ok. They’ll be safe, happy. From our perspective, we see narcissists as somehow missing out. They don’t experience the world as we do and to us, that’s sad. To us it’s sad. Not to them. From their perspective, they’re doing fine.

          Even HG, who is fully aware of his narcissism, what he has and doesn’t have, wouldn’t change if he had the option to. From his perspective, what’s to change? He’s driven, resilient, successful and he doesn’t yearn one bit for the emotions that we have. Unaware narcissists aren’t even aware that there are things they don’t feel, situations they can’t fully appreciate. The narcissism shields them from many of life’s difficulties and disappointments.

          The only people that are damaged by narcissism are the empaths. The narcissists are absolutely fine. They don’t feel the upsides that we do but equally, neither do they suffer the downsides. Your daughter will never know the ache. She will never have to go through true heartbreak. The worst she will feel will be a sensation she can’t quite put her finger on, the itch, a vague emptiness from time to time. In many ways, as a mother, you have less to worry about with your daughter now than you would if she was a normal or an empath.

          It’s not your fault, it’s not even your husbands fault. He doesn’t know he’s a narcissist and didn’t aim to create a narcissist. It’s genetics and in many ways, the luck of the draw.

          The only person who really stands to take on damage here is you Leigh. You are surrounded by narcissists and they will undoubtedly be chipping away at you. You are incredibly resilient but you have to be taking damage. That’s not right, you deserve far more from life than that.

          You can go NoContact with your mother and husband. You don’t owe them anything. You already know that. Your daughter might well be different. Telling an empath mother to go No Contact with her child is a big ask. I’m sure HG knows this. His role isn’t to tell you what to do. His role is to advise and to help you achieve what you want and need to do. Talk to him. Find a way to work within the parameters you are comfortable with. You won’t be the first empath he has advised in a similar situation.

          Drastic decisions seem drastic. It doesn’t have to be that way. You can make changes and decisions at a pace you are comfortable with. Once you take the first step, the next step will feel easier, then the next and the next until eventually you are out and answerable only to yourself. You deserve that. Xx

          1. Leigh says:

            Thank you TS, this is a good way of looking at it. In some respects, she may actually be happier. It will just be the people around her that will be walking on eggshells. For now that’s ok because there are no babies in the scenario. Once she starts having babies, I think my Savior and Carrier will definitely kick in. Going no contact with her is not an option so I have to learn to manage.

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I understand your concern about future grandchildren. I think that for now though you can only look at the immediate future. Your daughter might decide not to have children. She might not be able to have children. None of us really know. You can only make decisions based on the information available now. It becomes overwhelming otherwise. When it becomes overwhelming people don’t make a move. They stay frozen.

            I get tangled in what if’s too. I try to work out all the various possibilities for each move. Sometimes that doesn’t help, it just slows me down. Better to make a move then amend the next move if you need to. Xx

          3. Leigh says:

            #facts TS! That’s part of my problem, I feel overwhelmed and then I don’t want to do anything at all. I become frozen. I’m trying small steps now. This new revelation about my daughter just really threw me off.

          4. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Leigh,

            Yeah, it is overwhelming. Whatever your thoughts about your husband are, he is all you know. It’s bound to be overwhelming, so don’t be too hard on yourself about the indecision part.

            You mention above that ideally you would want him to leave you. Firstly, I don’t think that would happen, he has it too good as things are. Secondly and more importantly though, your comment sounds like a combination of guilt and over responsibility. It’s that sense of not wanting to be the one to break the family up. The thing is, irrespective of narcissism, he broke it Leigh. It was all him. He chose to take and not contribute. He decided to take the easy route, live off you and smoke the day away in his bolt hole in the garden. His choice. He broke it when he failed to step up as a husband or father. So you mustn’t feel guilt for any decision you make now.

            Women do stay for their kids. The idea of stability and that they can compensate for the shortcomings of the father. They try to keep the unit together, particularly if their own parents split up. You aren’t alone there. I have friends who have done the same. Stayed put and counted down the years. They do it for their kids, never for themselves. I’ve learned something though. Kids, even young kids are more resilient than we give them credit for.

            Mine spent the first 10 years of their lives in the US. They were American kids, in an American school with American accents. I fretted myself half to death worrying how they would fit in when we moved back to the UK. Moving from a big modern elementary in the US to a tiny village school in the UK. The move was my decision, if they had hated it then that was on me and only me.
            They settled right in, they adapted ridiculously quickly, the accents have faded, the memories of the US are slowly fading too but kids adapt far more easily than we ever give them credit for.

            You are likely fearful when you have no need to be. They would adapt faster than you, particularly now they are older and interested in their own lives. Your husband is so bone idle any visitation he had would likely drop off. Your kids will also have some say in the matter. If a teen doesn’t want to do something, it’s really difficult to get them to do it! Spending time visiting a monosyllabic father when they could be out with their friends would likely be a long way down the list of priorities!

            All to say, we are our own worst enemies a lot of the time. So quick to protect, when often, our kids are capable of protecting and adapting themselves. Guilt is a killer, taking on responsibility for everyone and everything is exhausting. Try to let those worries go. Figure out what you want to do, what you need to make happen and strangely, the rest of it will fall into place far quicker and more straightforwardly than you think. Xx

        4. Eternity says:

          Leigh my darling , you really need to get off this roller coaster ride and the wheel of misery. I understand it is easier said then done , but it is not healthy. You have so many Narcissists in your life right now . You do not want to overdose with this addiction. The addiction will never fully go away but you can manage it. You shouldn’t deal with devaluation period why put yourself through this? it is not necessary. Bottom line it is your choice . Again we are all here for you .

        5. WiserNow says:


          Thank you for your reply. I liked K too and I also hope she’s doing well. She was great and her information searching skills were legendary 🙂 If she still visits KTN, I hope she sees our comments. It was informative and fun to comment with her.

          About narcissists, there’s a couple of things that may help you. This relates to if/when you still have contact with them. As HG says, total no contact is the best way and it’s what you do need to aim for. I totally agree with that. The following is meant for those times or situations when total no contact is not completely possible.

          One is that narcissists (in general) hone in on a target’s positive qualities or strengths or aspects they feel confident about, and then, over time, the narcissist slowly works to undermine those things. So, if you are say, confident about the way you cook for example, they will find ways to criticise your cooking or tell you that you shouldn’t cook this but cook that instead, etc.

          It helps to know they do this because you can be prepared. Know what it is that you are good at or at least be more aware about what makes you confident. Then, when you hear the narcissist make subtle remarks or try to undermine you, reinforce in your own mind that they can’t make you change your thoughts or confidence. The more you bolster your inner defences, the better it will be for you.

          Also, don’t tell them much (or anything) about what you like, what makes you feel good, what makes you confident or proud etc. They will use your information against you and they will slowly undermine or take away those things.

          Secondly, like you, my mother was a victim narcissist too. Victim narcissists are very needy and will make it all about them and their needs. They are like very needy small children in their attitudes. Over time, this makes their target forget or minimise their own want/needs or the things they enjoy. There is literally no room for the needs of anyone else. The target has no-one to ask or depend on to take care of their own enjoyment or wants/needs. So the target learns, or is instinctively conditioned, to believe that their own needs don’t matter. It almost feels uncomfortable or ‘wrong’ to have any needs at all.

          To start recovering from the way a victim narcissist makes you feel instinctively, it helps to recognise this and to start taking more care of your own self. Be conscious about preparing things for yourself to enjoy. Indulge yourself even with small things. Go for a leisurely walk by yourself on a sunny day and enjoy the surroundings. Drive to a beach and sit by yourself and enjoy the waves. Start to ask yourself what kinds of things you enjoy and what makes you feel happy and then do them. Don’t be reluctant or afraid to admit to yourself that your needs are important and you have a right to them.

          These are a few things I have learned myself that may help someone else. Keep learning Leigh and continue to think and focus on how you can help yourself through everything.

          1. Leigh says:

            Thank you WiserNow! This is extremely helpful. You hit the nail right on the head. I don’t take care of myself. I put myself on the back burner, ALL THE TIME! Everything is about my husband and everyone else.

            I have started to walk again. Every day I go out for a walk. I do love to sit at the beach and listen to the waves. I will often drive down to the bay and walk there. I’m only about 5 miles from the bay and 15 miles from the ocean. I often listen to Mr. Tudor on my walks.

            Thank you again WiserNow

          2. WiserNow says:

            You’re very welcome Leigh, it’s a pleasure ❤️
            Thank you also – you have helped me too. I appreciate your open-mindedness and friendliness.

            I noticed in another comment you said you felt ‘frozen’ and didn’t know why, and that you want to ‘fix’ yourself or the way you feel.

            I can understand this feeling of being ‘frozen’. If you ask me, it’s an emotional response to your situation, a bit like an emotional message. In my case, at one point, I felt extremely unmotivated and no matter what I tried to do or what I talked myself into thinking, I couldn’t budge that feeling of being ‘stuck’ with no motivation at all.

            Things started to change when I ‘allowed’ this feeling to just ‘be’ for a while. It wasn’t a case of giving up or not wanting to change. It was more a case of not fighting with myself and instead accepting the emotion. Let it lay there for a while and live with it and make it easier on yourself. You don’t have to fix or change anything. Give that burden to a higher power, whatever that may be.

            With time, letting go of the need to fix or change things while protecting yourself as much as possible, your emotions will begin to be ‘unfrozen’ and there will be something that comes to you about how to move forward. The things you have learned will settle and start to take hold.

            Listen to your emotions carefully and take them seriously. They are messages that can help you. Keep in mind that they are messages and not obligations. Listen to them and let them come up and give them freedom & space. Then carefully and non-judgementally learn about yourself from what they make you feel.

            It takes a little time to change course and move in a new direction. It will happen though if you want it to happen. Best wishes to you Leigh xx

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