Tell Me That It´s True
I told you I loved you. That was not a lie. I meant it when I said it. I meant it every time that I said it, wrote it, messaged it, voice mailed it, gifted it and e-mailed it. I knew how to portray it. That wasn’t hard. There is so much material available for me to know what to say, how to say it, what to do and how to do it.
I have seen it when it has been directed at me time and time again. All I had to do was mirror it. I have had enough people fall under my spell and love me so that I recognise love when I see it. It became simple enough to replicate it. My intentions really were noble. I wanted to love you and I gave you the love that I knew that you wanted. I did enough to fathom out how you wanted to be loved.
Goodness knows I put in the spadework. I observed you and saw who you interacted with. I followed you to the places you frequented and noted what you ordered most often to eat and to drink. I sat behind you on the bus one time and saw the book that you read. I recognised the author so I went and bought three other of her titles and displayed them at home in readiness to show you and to let you borrow those which you had not read yet.
I dispatched a Lieutenant to chat you up and gather more information for me to collate and consider. I trawled the internet looking for your footprints. I sat up late as my phone buzzed and pinged with the messages from other prospects that I was cultivating but I made them wait as I searched for you. I found you and using a reliable false profile in the name of a friend of the opposite sex to me I managed to secure your online friendship. I did not approach you directly, despite the cloak of anonymity.
I preferred to walk like a ghost through your cyber world, observing your photographs and establishing the places where they were taken. I noted who your friends were, I highlighted potential competitors and I discerned who your family are. I took in the YouTube postings and when they were timed which told me you enjoyed a few glasses of wine in the evening on your own as you posted musical memories from your teenage years. I walked through your posts and your comments, picking up snippets of information that detailed your devotion to romance, your love of small dogs and your dislike of the cold. Like a silent, vast machine I remained your unseen companion for a month as I sucked up as much information as I could in order to build a picture of you and how you wanted to be loved.
Each meme you posted gave me a clue. Every discussion with your friends added further layers as I created the person that would love you. I uploaded to him your interests and made them his. I bolted on the necessary skill sets which would please you. I furnished him with the choice phrases that you wanted to hear. I configured his actions, expressions, behaviours and more that would make him provide you with the love that you wanted to much and once all of this considerable preparatory work was complete I began my seduction.
I loved you. I loved you with passion, desire, attentiveness, excitement, mystery and kindness. All created from the morass of information that I had gathered about you which was layered onto my existing experience from previous relationships and my knowledge of how love operates in the world. I know that it worked. You fell for me hook, line and sinker and you became enveloped in my creation where you flourished, you shone and you bloomed. Your happiness radiated from you like sunbeams, the pleasure you took in us being together was tangible and all of those around us commented as such. It was marvellous, spectacular, wonderful and perfect.
You had no idea that my love was a creation. Why would you when not only did it match your concept of love but driven by my excellence it exceeded it? Why would you challenge something that felt so golden and so glorious? You would not. I gave you this love and you returned it. It was a match made in heaven. It was a transaction that suited us both. You received my scintillating synthetic love and you gave me the love that sustains me, that emotion infused reaction which powers and sustains me. We both were winners.
Was it such a bad thing that what I gave you was a fabrication if it looked like the real thing? I might even go so far as to say that it was even better than the real thing. Am I to be regarded as a bad person for this fraudulent act. Is it not the case that my deceit pleased you? Yes, you did not know about this deceit, you had no awareness of the fabrication but that caused you no harm did it? You saw and you believed and seeing is believing surely?
When I took you in my arms, shielding you from the black day that you had emerged from and you looked into my eyes and saw the love, the devotion and the optimism that burned there, did it really matter that I was mirroring what you showed me so long as it made you happy, elated and feel loved? My optimistic eyes were your optimistic eyes.
When I unleashed my hatred you could not and still do not understand how someone could treat you like that when that person kept saying that he loved you.
It was easy to switch to this vicious malevolence. It was easy to peel back the veneer that was the manufactured love. It was easy to switch off the creation that I made that provided you with this perfect love. A flick of a switch and he ceased to exist, leaving you with something else instead.
I did not lie when I said that I loved you.
I did not lie when I whispered that I loved you.
I did not lie when I shouted that I loved you.
I just did not tell you the truth.
The truth that I never felt love for you.
Because I cannot do that.
68 thoughts on “Tell Me That It´s True”
This post really touched me because it made me think about something that I have wondered about my ex. Looking back at everything that happened I swear there were moments that I clearly got a glimpse of who he really was.
The most significant of these moments was when he sent me a picture of himself out of the blue one day. This photo was not manufactured with fake smiles or perfect hair and clothes. It was a fairly close up of his face while he was working outside. The man in that picture was not trying to convince me of anything and I still don’t know why he sent it to me. There was no argument or problem at that time between us but it was right before he started his devaluation of me. The pain that I could see in his eyes was palpable.
That was six months ago and I since have deleted this picture and all of them but I can still feel the pain in his eyes just as the day he sent it to me. I swear it was the real “him” behind the mask. Not a monster or a cruel and deceitful man but a very vulnerable, fearful, weak, and lost man. That person was now frozen in time in that photo. I swear he did not even resemble the same man that I was used to seeing every week! The fake one.
Your post HG, makes me wonder if somewhere inside of the narcissist there is an awareness even if very brief that there is something very wrong with them and they have a momentary feeling of being lost, vulnerable, and afraid. Even if they can’t really understand or discern why that is. I feel like I witnessed this in that photo. Maybe he knew it was about to end and that he was losing control and without even realizing it this caused him to be afraid. It was clearly seen in the picture.
I may be completely wrong and that photo could have been a reflection of a million things going on with him that day possibly even a result of something one of his IPSS or his potential future IPPS had said or done to him that he didn’t like. I want to believe somewhere inside of you narcissists you could actually “ feel” something other than the few emotions you speak about. I know that the man I saw in that photo was the closest I would ever see of his true vulnerable self.
Sorry so long! Just wanted to get any other thoughts on this.
Did he take the photo or did someone else take it?
Hi NA, I’m very sure he took the photo.
I believe the photo was manipulation. They may exist, but don’t I know anyone who takes a selfie and doesn’t check it before sending to see that it is acceptable and conveys what we intend for the receiver to see. A narcissist would not want to convey weakness or vulnerability unless it’s being used as a manipulation. It might be different if someone else had snapped the pic of him unaware, and that is why I asked, but that is not the case. Also – snapping a photo of your pain and vulnerability and then deciding to send it to someone while in the midst of yard work seems highly suspect haha.
NA, thank you for the response. My heart is seeking for a “sign” a confirmation that this man is in some way trying to break free from this narcissism hell that he is in. The truth is I’m the one struggling….
Wendy, that was interesting to read, thank you for sharing it. RE: your 4th paragraph, the majority of narcissists do not know what they are. Having said that, they do experience ‘fear’ and sometimes can get into a state of anxiety, usually triggered by something within their environment by an object or by a person. Your words “Even if they can’t really understand or discern why that is” – for the majority of narcissists, yes, I would agree with that from what I learned on here. Yet they would ‘quell’ that ‘fear’ as quickly as they can due to the experience of having learned to quell it. Very few narcissists are aware, some of them may become aware through either research on their ‘behaviours’ or being ‘informed’ (by someone, or through therapy if they did attend). I have suggested that the MRN I knew became ‘aware’ of his narcissism, somehow through things he said and coming out with ‘bi-polar’ but not diagnosed – he did have a couple of memory tests carried out…….
Have you seen this video? https://narcsite.com/2021/02/03/the-changing-face-of-the-narcissist/
Asp Emp, thank you for referring me to this video! I hadn’t watched it before and it is very interesting. I suppose he very well could have been sending this photo either with or without the understanding that it would provoke an emotion in me and it would make sense since they have to control our emotions as part of the prime aims ;control and fuel acquisition.
But, knowing this I still feel like he did not intend to look like this. Just as HG describes in the video his appearance changed so much that he literally did not look like the same man. His face was tense and worried. So, he may have been having momentary panic or fear that he would have never, ever showed me because it would make him look weak in his mind. He was always prideful and arrogant.
I think that he could be one that becomes “aware” because of his high intellect. He is an an extremely intelligent man.
Thanks for your thoughts on this it is most appreciated. 😊
Wendy, thank you for your response. Glad that the video helped. You suggest that he looked worried / tense. Was he having ‘The Narcissist’s Reality Gap’ moment? https://narcsite.com/2021/07/08/the-narcissists-reality-gap-11/ You could be correct about the momentary panic / fear. We all have that experience in our life (empath / narcissist / normal). He sent the photo as a form of manipulation, or even a moment of ‘honesty’? But he still was asserting his control over you. He may be one of those that is aware of their narcissism. RE: your last sentence, you are welcome, that is what this blog is for – ‘The 10 Obligations of the Empath’ https://narcsite.com/2021/06/07/the-10-obligations-of-the-empath-7/#comment-407091 🙂
Asp Emp, thank you. You always send me over to really good videos that clear up much for me.
I have often thought from what I have learned from HG about the types of narcissists that my ex is mid range. Which subclass I’m not sure. He was very promiscuous I found out. Somatic I think is the term for this type.
But then again, he had moments of extreme passive aggressive behavior and would threaten me without actually verbally or physically threaten me if that makes sense. Cunning, vengeful, and def one that would have to “make me pay” for whatever he thought I did to him a lot like what a greater would do.
What you said makes a lot of sense. Looking back maybe I witnessed him having reality gaps. I think I’m gonna have to do the narc detector to find out exactly what kind of narcissist he was. This is gonna bug me not being sure!
Thanks again, I so appreciate you! 🤗
Wendy, thank you for your reply. I am glad to help out when I can.
RE: somatic. I think the description you’re looking is a dog with 6 dicks LOL. Or an angry gorilla just thrashing branches around – all talk no trousers.
If you think it will give you ‘peace of mind’ (to be able to ‘move on’ sooner), have the NDC done on him. Then you’d be able to mentally ‘maul’ him, or you can use HG’s ‘HG Mauls Your Narcissist’ method. In fact, this is a second option if you would prefer that than have the NDC done. You’re spoilt for choice here. I know which one I’d go for 😉
Wendy, he sent it because he needed to assert control over you and he chose to use a pity play. They can definitely feel vulnerable but they need to squash that feeling. It could have been as simple as he got hit with a rock while working in the yard. That made him feel weak and vulnerable and he needed to get rid of that feeling. The best way to do that is fuel. It helps build the construct and keep the creature at bay. It wasn’t the true self you saw. It was the narcissism driving the narcissist to get attention from you by using a benign manipulation. Did you respond to the text?
Hi Leigh, looking back I don’t think I did. He didn’t send a text with the picture. Just the picture. You’re right I’m probably reading way too much into it. It was manipulation.
You know we like to come up with any and every reason to believe in them while still in the grips of that addiction.
Thanks for your take on it.
That made me laugh “ it could have been as simple as he got hit with a rock while working in the yard.” 😂
Wendy, I love that you didn’t respond! No response would have wounded him! Haha!
The thing you have to remember is that they may act the same as us but what’s driving them is different. So if both an empath and a narcissist gets hit with a rock, the empath might just want to be comforted because it hurts. A narcissist will feel threatened because he feels weak and vulnerable and will need to assert control somehow. They will both reach out to people, but for very different reasons. Here’s the real kicker, the narcissist doesn’t know they need to reach out to someone to assert control. They think like you or I and that they just want to be comforted.
Mr. Tudor directed me to The Fuel Crisis this past weekend. You should listen as well. Its very informative. Some logic bulletins that can help also is The 3 Key Interactions & The 3 Assertions of Control. I also really liked the book, “Your Fault”.
I know how strong the addiction can be and how we make excuse after excuse. Its good your out of his grip now. It will help you heal and give you clarity.
Neither told me ILY. Thankfully, I do not lovingly reminisce about them. Ha. Letter to the Empath. What a dark time for me. The door ❤️ is still closed.
I’ve read this a few times and each time I feel devastated in a puddle of tears. It seemed so real. Only a few days into No contact and there has been no attempt at contact from Narc. I’m grieving a death.
I’ve read this a few times and each time I feel devastated in a puddle of tears. It seemed so real. Only a few days into No contact and there has been no attempt at contact from Narc. I’m grieving a death.
Voxsusana, I am so sad for you, I remember so vividly being there, just part treat and I was the one who ended it. But I so wanted so bad for him to reach out! I can only say please stay and learn and that it really will get easier with time and understanding, hang in there. Reach out to us as you need to, it hurts and it’s the worst time you will have. But many, probably most, here have been through it, we understand and feel your pain. ❤
If you are in true no contact you would not know if there has been no attempt at contact by the Narc. It does not mean that you have stopped contacting them. Please use the search bar to find articles on No Contact or consult with HG to ensure better understanding. I’m glad you have found your way here where you will find the best information on narcissism and the support of others. You can do this.
I think I understand. It was a short intense relationship. There is no social media. We only had some contact by email which he hardly used and lots of cell phone and of course in person bc we worked together. He didn’t block me so I guess I’m on the shelf but I’m not contacting him and fueling him with any messages which is a big step for me. My Narc also lost employment and revealed drug use so who knows what is going on but I’m steering clear. I’m going to do the narc detector and empath as well to get a better scope of this. I’ll prob do a consult as well to get a better idea of how I get into and out of these situations.
That is an excellent plan. Best to you.
I am relatively new to this blog and trust me when I tell you that over the past few months of being able to engage in these discussions has been pivotal in my healing and a godsend! HG is phenomenal and the people you will interact with here have been through and some are still going through the same thing.
They have been thru the fire and have some of the best advice you could ever receive. This blog along with HG’s Ultra videos and other resources is my therapy. I look forward to coming here everyday to help me shed a little more of the pain from what happened to me. It is still painful for me at times but it’s getting less and less as time goes on.
I completely agree with NarcAngel about being no contact. You should do everything in your power to go completely no contact with him and block him on everything or else your healing will be stalled and each day you gain control and get stronger you will set yourself back even more if he is allowed to contact you. You also risk getting back with him! Don’t do that to yourself! They are so not worth it. It’s painful but you can and will overcome it. Listen to EVERYTHING that HG has to offer! It will heal you.
You got this!
Prayers and big hugs to you! 🙏🤗
Well, unfortunately contact started again. But it was just a couple of phone calls, no meetings. So for anyone who wants to read….
He always starts with apologies. He knows I’m trying to disengage so there was some definite hoovering and questioning about where I was going. I have problems in my marriage so he is questioning things I am doing in my life and how he wouldn’t let me do those things if I was his wife. Ha! I don’t tell him much about that and he is usually not interested in it anyway. Then the conversation the next day was strange. He wanted to talk to me about his wife. He wanted advice!
I’m a therapist and often I can’t engage with him bc I’m talking to clients when he texts me to get me to chat and he has to wait his turn. So he says, why don’t you ever give me advice? I said it’s unethical, I don’t want to be intrusive and it’s weird. But he says he is asking for it. So he tells me how unhappy he is because his wife IPPS is pushing him away or possibly cheating on him. Sometimes it sounds like he is talking about himself because he describes her ghosting when she goes on biz trips or talking down to him. Maybe she has had his number for a long time and she is a bigger narcissist than him. ? I don’t know. I’ve seem them together and she doesn’t even look at him like she is disgusted. He says she regrets marrying him. It’s all poor me.
So recently he was fired and basically lost his career and he is an addict so IPPS is his lifeline, even though it seems she is trying to rid herself of him too. Again I don’t know if it’s a projection or a triangulation exactly or if she is a covert narc. I tell him they need counseling and he describes them going in the past and how it didn’t work but it did get him to go to AA. He describes her getting angry and silent when she is criticized and I acknowledge that he has a problem with criticism too bc I’ve seen him react aggressively. He agrees that he does that. Then I carefully asked him about his difficulty with criticism and although he talks about his parents like they are the best ever, I said you can’t take criticism so someone somewhere must have been critical. And he told me about how it had been difficult as an only child to always “be the best” for his parents approval esp Dad and it’s still happening right up to the present day.
It was so strange. It’s like coming in and out of a fog. I know we’ll never be together. I’m much older than him and I guess I know why I was chosen. We were enjoying a bubble and I got attached, it was too intimate and he starting reacting to me aggressively always saying I would leave him. It was like crazy backwards talk, projections. When he lost a couple of his main sources of fuel, and feared losing the IPPS, his last big source, our bubble imploded. He had to conserve all the energy for the one source, the IPPS who keeps him afloat with a roof over his head.
I’m sad but not surprised. You should know that I have no illusions. I know there is probably more to come. And I have my own marriage to work out. I’m probably like a surrogate mom, wife, girlfriend, sister and I haven’t had the heart to disengage completely. I’ve dealt with different grades of narcissists all my life… after all I’m an Empath.
I’ve completed the Detectors to confirm and I’m waiting on final analysis. This great website and the support of others is all helping me and ultimately my clients as well. Thanks for reading if you did.
Thanks to HG for the quick responses to my detectors and for the wisdom and knowledge.
Wendy, RE: your second paragraph. It was good to read that. Thank you 🙂 In some way, it could be classed as ‘accepting’ it on a psychological level, once you start ‘processing’ it and then you can make ‘progress’.
I remember being in this position I was actively addicted to my narcissist as real as any drug addiction I’ve been drug ( narc ) free since June of 2018 it was a very long process of getting over this addiction and entailed a lot of deep hard work but it is very possible and real
Yes, worse for me than anything else I’ve given up.
I read yesterday, but couldn’t answer right away. It pierced me. That lightning again.
These WORDS … as if He was whispering to me from the underworld … some phrases even repeat themselves.
Indeed, I don’t mind this scam. I got what I wanted. We both got it.
With one amendment. We created this creation, that you demolished so easily, TOGETHER.
In this electrical system, I have the switch-on and you have the switch-off. Everyone can only operate their button.
Incomplete layout 🙂
I am addressing directly, even though I am thinking of “my” narcissist. Personification quite often happens here 🙂
Personification does happen here and it also happened for me. It was easier, I found, to confront what I needed to confront if I did it directly and allowed my imagination and emotions free rein. And that is the purpose, confrontation. Going eyeball to eyeball with the past and allowing the experience to set you free. Or not.
LT, that’s right. For several years I wrote letters, poems and short thoughts to him (less and less often). Thousands of sentences he never got.
For many years I talked “to him” internally. Especially in moments of maximum happiness or unhappiness, agitation. Sometimes it was so strong that I accidentally spoke a word as I walked down the street. Sometimes I controlled 5% of the brain’s activities, and 95% were in a completely different world. Wake up was funny 🙂
I was talking to him as if he was standing in front of me.
When he came back, I told him that I could talk to him, because I had been doing it for years and that it makes no difference whether I tell him or let it go into empty space.
It is important that it flew. This stream has to go out, otherwise I’ll go crazy 🙂
Joa, better to get those thoughts out of your head as otherwise they just keep swimming around in there until you eventually find you are drowning in them.
That’s why the ‘stream has to go out’, so you don’t drown or go crazy 🙂
LET…..”better to get those thoughts out of your head as otherwise they just keep swimming around in there until you eventually find you are drowning in them” – absolutely, thank Higher God for this place…..
LET, I throw away my whole life. This is independent of the narcissist (although they greatly increase the chaos). I constantly conduct internal dialogues, arrange, translate, adjust, throw away, hide, refresh. Constant work in my head 🙂 I am well trained at it 🙂
Joa, you sound very ‘efficient’ in that sense 🙂
I feel I am much less organized in the case of the narcissist, and likely won’t do anything until I feel I am drowning. This is where the narcissist will catch me out. Perhaps it’s the issue of everpresence, where it’s easier to dispose of some thoughts than others. The narcissist ensures it is difficult to dispose of thoughts of them and, as in HG’s article “Residue”, something about them ‘clings’ to you. It’s these clinging thoughts, the ones which don’t let go, effectively dragging you down further into those waters.
Releasing thoughts of the narcissist is hard, and in some ways my release from the last narcissist has come slowly. I’m actually in a more efficient phase of the disposal right now 🙂
There are many ways to ‘dispose’ or throw away, and placing thoughts here is one, I’ve found. It’s good that you have found a way to do what you need to do for your own benefit and hopefully that will help you move forward in the situation with your narcissist – and I don’t mean forward as in towards him, I mean forward as in away from him! You’ve obviously got the tools at your disposal <3
“Goodness knows I put in the spadework.” And they seriously pouting about this? Bunch of babies.
Watching the news tonight, the footballer Mo Salah now has a waxwork of himself in Madame Tussauds. It did remind me of when I visited Madame Tussauds in London. That was years ago.
I thought, hmmm. I reckon there should be a statue of HG outside the Science Museum in London (why not in other places around the world too?). Why do I think this? Because of HG’s prosocial contributions to science and humanity. This does not stop HG from commissioning a statue of himself in any case.
BTW, I adore the image of the zebra and it’s black stripes lifting to reveal the white (purity, light).
Well I suggest you start a funding page to commission that statue
HG, now that’s a suggestion! I liked the way you started your response with “Well….” (made me laugh). I’ll have a think and email you if that is ok with you?
Dear Mr Tudor,
A statute of ?????
The white robe, long hair n beard has already been taken
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Now, now Bubbles (LOL). Joking aside, what is your view on the suggestion?
Dearest Asp Emp,
Mr Tudor turns ‘wax’ ……. lyrical 🤣
Enthusiastic or indignant, wax poetic, wax philosophical, wax indignant, wax rapturous… meaning you become/tend to that state
Looks like he would be placed between Hermann Maier and Hilda Ogden on the list of order
His mate ‘James Corden’s’ already there
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Bubbles! OMG! Your description totally reminded me of a film (2005) ‘House of Wax’.
Bubbles, this is what I had in mind for as such outside in public places……
In my mind’s eye, I see a statue, of a man looking at a book (reading ‘out loud’ from the book) he is holding in his left hand and the ‘world’ in his right hand.
The book is titled ‘The Book of Knowledge’ with ‘HG Tudor, The World’s No.1 Resource about Narcissism’ as the author. The cover is black with platinum coloured lettering. The inside of the book needs to be completely bright and reflecting like a mirror come rain or shine. And this should shine light on the face of the statue. The eyes of the statue could also be reflecting like a mirror.
The mask colour could be dark bronze. Either one the face of the statue, or at lying his feet.
At his feet, two kneeling figures.
One is depicted as a weeping angel looking up, with one hand reaching towards the book and the other hand on her heart.
The other is a youngish girl removing the blindfold with one hand and her other hand outstretched towards HG.
The base of the statue should be black marble to reflect residue, the darkness as in narcissism.
I suggest that the statue and the figures are mostly white with black streaks running through them, like marble.
This is only my view…..(one of them anyway 😉 )
Besides, today’s version of Hilda Odgen is MM in about 10-20 years time 😉
You can turn the parrot back on now too 😉 LOL
Dearest Asp Emp,
Your statue sounds ‘fan’ tastic, I would put a patent on it. Mr Tudor should commission one, starting with his ‘bronzed legs’ and work your way up haha
One can never have enough of oneself, can one ?
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Bubbles, thank you. There is a difference between ‘my statue’ and ‘my suggestion’ 😉 It would be dressed suitably too, possibly a suit, like 007, the man of mystery? To reflect HG’s professionalism as HG Tudor. Should HG have one commissioned, he can decide how his personal statue would appear. He may insist on the one within Piccadilly Circus to be replaced 😉 Regardless of that, I think anything that appears on HG’s blog is his ‘copyright’?
Dearest Asp Emp,
What narcissist doesn’t like a statue of themselves in any form ?
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Bubbles, absolutely! Hang on second……”in any form”……care to elaborate? 😉 x
Dearest Asp Emp,
A headstone !
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Hey, Bubbles, can I talk your husband for a minute? I think a little ‘Hush’ is due 😉
Dearest Asp Emp,
Haha … Mr Bubbles is being cremated and his ashes scattered around the garden (same as me)
A headstone lives on as a forever memory for generations to come. The best way not to give a narc what he wants, is not to give them this ‘statue’
No one visits, places flowers on their grave, talks to them or cries over them
Now that’s ‘no contact’ for ya
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Bubbles, I understand that there is a plaque on a wall for my father, he was cremated. We’d scattered his ashes in a corner of a field – where he liked to walk I think. LOL at the memory of muvver’s annoyance at the motorway that now exists in the same place, not a lot you can do about that really! I think she was actually trying to get me angry or cry at the time.
I know what you mean though 🙂
I’d put a statue of HG in my front yard.
Mo Salah deserves a waxwork 🙂
So does HG, of course 😉
They are the freakiest things. Far too lifelike sometimes. Sometimes very poorly done.
LET, RE: your last sentence – I totally agree. I remember thinking ‘that does not look like so and so’. Yes, I’ve seen some strange ones in my time, ie the ones in the caves near High Wycombe……
I had to look these caves up, and oddly came across a link for “Escape Rooms” in the same area … what is going on? This fad of mine is becoming a little more pronounced. My eldest daughter’s boyfriend told me yesterday that he and his family had done one of these experiences and I’m inclined to book us all in for a treat 🙂 Trick or treat? Hopefully it won’t be anything like the movies I’ve watched lately :O
As to these caves, they might be a treat for some at Halloween, but I’m not sure I would like to visit them. I’m learning to resist the devil at the moment 😉
LET, yes, I was thinking about it – why were me and sis taken there a number of times before we were teenagers? I did read further into these caves myself and was interested……’The Hellfire’……laughing.
Well, you never know what you would find should you book yourself and family in for such a treat…..I think the deepest ones I have been down were in Crete…..take in extra jumpers for warmth and ensure that you also have a waterproof mac on (or to hand) – they can be cold and damp, sometimes, drip water (or something cold and wet will be dripping in any case……..laughing as I type this, but it is true!). Embrace the devil….you have nothing to fear, it’s only your mind that allows the fear……
Book that treat 🙂
There was a Hellfire Club in the Wicklow mountains outside of Dublin. I never went to visit the ruins, and the notion was enough to put me off. Mountains appear to be a drawcard for nefarious occult activity from my understanding. Not that I’d avoid them altogether for that reason, but … just sayin’.
I’m assuming your parent’s took you there because you lived nearby? They must have had a bit of a fascination with the place as well. Were you frightened as a child, or just curious?
When it comes to fear, I think it serves a purpose, and not to put a dampener on your suggestion to embrace it, or the devil (tongue in cheek), I think we need to make a distinction between irrational and rational fear.
Entering a cave may be the basis for either kind of fear, I think. One might have a phobia, e.g. claustrophobia, which would be considered irrational and account for fear in a number of different settings, but having a level of fear with regard to underground tunnels and networks is not remiss, due to the possibility of cave ins, etc.
There are all kinds of fear which keep us safe, and some that intefere with us living our lives. On a take it or leave it basis, I could probably ‘leave’ this one.
My ex-husband and I took the children to Fuertaventura in the Canary Islands when the children were young. Mind you we were separated at the time, but as he had limited access and I was concerned for their well being it was agreed we would go as a family. While there we visited an all year round “House of Terror”, or something like that (it was in Spanish so I can’t remember the exact title), but it was a very well done series of rooms set up for a frightening experience. My son was the only one who agreed to go in with me and with real actors it ended up being a bit much for both of us :O We exited before visiting all of the rooms and I was glad to get out! The mechanical bull not too far away from that was much more fun 🙂
I can imagine stepping into these caves and running out screaming at some point 😛
LET, High Wycombe Hell Fire Caves was on tv tonight. One of them ‘paranormal’ programmes. I watch them for entertainment and I have an interest in ‘spookiness’. But. Seriously…….it does make me laugh when I see someone suddenly “did you see that?” or “did you hear that?”….LOL. Yeah, right!! Then I thought I’ll mention it to you and when I logged on, found your comment……
I’ve never been to Ireland.
Nefarious occults? Ooh, sounds interesting 😉 LOL.
I think it was my dad who had an interest. I think I inherited dad’s inquiring curiosity. Muvver took us there though. I do not recall being frightened or spooked…….fascination, yes. Nobody could really explain to me in simple language why there was wax-work figures looking odd and dressed for the ‘times’. My brain-wiring could not quite ‘compute’ on that, because they were inanimate objects (without the barcodes, of course 😉 ).
I’d embrace the devil 😉
I think caves are checked on a regular basis and it would be a legal requirement to meet Health & Safety inspections. I understand what you mean in relation to the fear aspect.
The one time I recall being fkg freaked out was when I watched a Dracula film with Christopher Lee and I was alone in the house. Some time later, my sister knocks very loudly on the window, fk! That totally freaked me out because I didn’t have the sound on the tv. Sis had been out and had no key. And, yes, I did scream. My sis heard me from outside LOL. I was not scared watching the film, just like an excited apprehension if you can understand.
I also was freaked at school and that dark cellar when my friends turned the lights out – it was dare thing.
I suppose fear comes in different aspects – like a narcissist muvver. That was certainly fear.
Yeah, I suppose there is a difference when there is something mechanical and not moving at all. Like at fun-fair haunted train rides etc…..LOL.
There is also a ‘comfort / safety’ when with an adult when you are a child going into these places.
Did muvver ‘feel at home’ in these caves? Duuno…..(LOL). It was just me and my aunt in the caves in Crete…..muvver didn’t go (LOL).
Thank you for moderating, HG x
Haha, AspEmp, this conversation is getting freaky! You switched on the TV and a program about High Wycombe Hell Fire caves was being aired? It was when I looked them up I saw the “Hell Fire” aspect of their history and it immediately jogged my memory of the Hell Fire Club in Ireland. There does seem to be a connection between these ‘clubs’ and their activities which makes me wonder how many more there were. I know you are laughing, but I was referring to nefarious occult activity which reportedly took place in these clubs. I’m only reporting on the facts 😉
As to the paranormal investigative shows, I find them ridiculous. They hear a bump or jump at something unseen and we’re all supposed to believe they are having contact with the supernatural. I have had my own supernatural experience, and speaking to others who’ve had the same (and I do believe we’ve discussed this here before) many people do not speak about those experiences because they do not think others will believe them or even think them crazy. I honestly don’t believe you can seek these things out, as much as they happen to you, usually unexpectedly and without any expectation on your part. If you do believe in these things then you are potentially playing with fire to try and engage them, even out of curiosity.
You’ve pointed out some more interesting aspects of fear, from the sudden unexpected happening which catches you unawares (who needs that in the middle of a horror movie?), to the dare you take with your friends to see who is the bravest, and probably none of them compare to the real fear of having a parent who can’t be relied upon and is even punishing, sometimes in the extreme. I remember watching the movie Coraline with my children when they were younger. I found it a very disturbing film for children and one of the reasons was the very real portrayal of a Jekyll and Hyde type mother, who drew Coraline in with her sweetness and which ultimately turned to spite. This is another movie, albeit a children’s animation, about narcissism and its very real features, which can be very frightening for children, the reason being they are reliant on the adults in their lives. An unpredictable adult is a frightening thing to a child.
I love the Ghost Train, and it is still one of my ‘go to’ options at any fun fair. I still scream, too! It’s childish, but it’s fun. They’ve upped the ante on some of these things now and made them much more realistic, like the House of Terror in Spain. I suppose, and know for a fact, that is more for adult entertainment. I think I prefer the more childish variety when all is said and done. As a child I was very attuned to all things supernatural, reading spooky comic books and being fascinated by the mysteries of life. I liked to consider the possibility of another dimension and what that meant.
Thanks for sharing more of your story, AspEmp. It obviously triggered some other thoughts for me which took me on a little walk down memory lane <3
LET, yeah, the Wycombe caves was on tv but they actually did not film anything ‘tangible’ 😉
I know what went on in these Hell Fire Clubs. Like witch burning that took place too. Again, it smacks of narcissistic abuse existing in history as HG has suggested.
Yes, interesting point to suggest – how many more Hell Fire Clubs were there? It was done via human migration and evolution. Led by one human (the species it is today). Interesting. Humans started with one person. It is most likely to end with one person, the same species as it is today, as we know it.
RE: your second paragraph, it made me laugh. Yes, I agree “they happen” to you. Either ‘they’ made it happen. Or your instincts are ‘kicking in’. Sometimes both can ‘happen’ at the same time.
RE: your third paragraph – I’ll have a look into the Coraline you mentioned. Sounds interesting (just to observe their ‘take’). Unpredictability and narcissistic adults – I agree. Yet, if your instincts ‘work’ (ie highly intuitive), you know something is ‘not right’. I recall the scene in ‘The Handmaid’s Tale’ where the train is coming closer on the tracks and the two women running, I knew the train was going to hit them, but it still made me jump.
On a more serious note, muvver could have killed me that one time when she banged my head on the wooden floor, several times. Obviously it did not register in my mind at the time because I was around 10. Could she have caused brain injury? Quite possible. Secondary psychopathy? Most likely. Combined with loss of father within more or less a year. Yet that particular instinctual ‘fear’ remained until I left home, effectively reducing my ‘exposure’ to danger. Having just typed that, I remain calm and collected. No raised ET = Acceptance = That I was not at fault.
Thank you for conversing – I enjoyed it. Hug back to you 🙂
Thank you for the hug, AspEmp <3
I've watched a couple of things on YT about the caves now, one I haven't quite finished yet more about the history, but there was a paranormal one which wasn't really very impressive, as you say. Nefarious activities carried out by narcissists exist in all realms, it's true. It's sad as well when said activities are carried out by those who profess a belief in a loving God. Things always get turned on their head where narcissists are involved.
I'm curious to know how many Hell Fire clubs there were, and the one in Dublin seems to have come into existence around the same time. Run by the higher echelons of society, which no doubt were headed often by narcissists with their sense of entitlement to behave as they wished giving that away. As to our origins, it remains a curiosity to me. I believe in a Creator, how he created has different explanations in both a scientific and religious context. I do think you can marry the two, and that is my perspective – since God is Creator, he is also scientist 🙂
Interesting what you say about 'instincts'. That is also a combination, I think. There is a 'crossing over', whether that happens with an awareness on our part or a deliberate action on the part of the supernatural. Either way, I assume the unexpected happenings, and those less spoken of, are more likely to be 'real'.
I hope you do get a chance to review the movie "Coraline" as it really impacted me in terms of its theme. I thought it was very frightening for children, and didn't realize it was described as "dark fantasy for children." Having said that, I now recall my eldest daughter enjoyed "dark fantasy" books as a child, including "A Series of Unfortunate Events" by Lemony Snicket and also Jacqueline Wilson's novels. I guess Charlie and the Chocolate Factory is also a "dark fantasy" story for children. It can certainly seem gruesome in parts. Anyway, I think the theme of Coraline was particularly disturbing as it relates to that most sacred bond between a mother and their child. Coraline finds she has a choice between two mothers, one her real mother and 'normal', the other a fantasy mother and (I would say) 'narcissist'. The reflection itself, I believe, is accurate, if it was to be a reflection of narcissism. What hits home now for me is the fact it was brought into the light in the form of a story for children. If children can relate to that experience it could be quite disturbing for them. It's disturbing anyway! I didn't know about narcissism then, but I just remember how I reacted to the movie and how strong those feelings were. Something was seriously wrong about it, and now I know that was narcissism. It didn't make me jump as much as it made my skin crawl.
And my skin is crawling now to think of the way your mother treated you. She really was evil and appears to have had no care or concern for you at all. No mother would bang a child's head on the floor without realizing it could do some damage, at least no loving mother. She sounds like she was completely out of control, no doubt the alcohol didn't help, but that's no excuses for her actions which were despicable. And you were only 10 … how do we possibly confront these acts of violence at that young age? It's not possible. To lose your one safe harbour which was your father around that same time must have been devastating. I can only imagine the fear at being left to her tirades and it's no wonder it didn't leave you until you knew you were no longer exposed.
It was not your fault, and I'm glad greater understanding through time spent here enables that acceptance and keeps your ET from skyrocketing. You really have come a long way, AspEmp. I'm so glad you're here and can find the sense of peace and comfort that was denied you as a child. You really deserve that xox
LET, thank you for your response. No doubt that you would have seen my comment in relation to Coraline. It was interesting researching into it.
Reading your words about Muvver, what you said about her is spot on. Wow. Thank you for ‘mauling’ muvver. The boss I worked for at that time (when I left home) was the one who sat and encouraged me to talk to him about ‘things at home’. He understood. He was not an emotional man yet did show anger when he saw a bruise on my face (black eye). It was not that much longer after that, he got me a home (company flat) through formal channels, pay rise (yet, again), promotion to another store and a place on the management training team. I think he got fed up seeing me being abused. He had spent some time in the Army. Fought in a war. I’d say he saved me from a physical death.
Being here saved me from emotional / mental ‘death’.
RE: your last paragraph, thank you. I will never ‘accept’ what she did to me. I have been enabled with knowledge in understanding it all. Accept? Never. Because it means I ‘forgive’. Fk that. I don’t get angry about it any more (or any real emotion for that matter – she is not worth the ‘energy’ in effort or time). In my view, that is good LT and ET on my part. I have done what I needed to do all these years. That is my ‘accepting’ it.
You have so much compassion and I really appreciate you giving some of yours. Your words are a hug in itself. Thank you xx
(Thank you, HG, for moderating xx).
AspEmp, happy to ‘maul’ your muvver in the circumstances as her actions were obviously despicable. You should get HG on to that since he’s so generously offered to do that for all our narcs 🙂 I think that’s an extra special treat for all the suffering empaths here. All our narcs deserve a one off special mauling from the Ultra!
In some ways you had an ‘interventionist’ in the form of your boss, and I’m so glad he took you under his wing. It must have meant so much to you at the time, and sometimes our rescue comes later in the piece, much like our finding ourselves here and finally being able to make sense of our lives. This site has definitely rescued me in so many ways, and one of those ways is as you say – it’s not your fault.
I have so much more I could say about that, and will add to another thread for those purposes, but when I mentioned acceptance I did it based on what you said about being able to achieve it as your ET lowered and you recognized you were not at fault. In no way did I mean acceptance of the treatment at your mother’s hands. That was not acceptable and never will be.
And yes, doing what you needed to do all those years is the kind of acceptance we are both talking about. Putting it back on the narcissist as a means of releasing ourselves from what they have tried to put on us. That is good LT and beneficial to our ET.
I really appreciate your kind words and thank you for sharing them <3
There are hugs to go round here, and while we can't physically give them we can certainly share them with our thoughts and support. Feeling like I've been hugged right back, so thank you, too xox
– the first Hell Fire Club was formed by a 20 year old in 1718 in London then ended, re-started by someone else in High Wycombe
– it was ‘exclusive’ to Britain and Ireland
– membership was limited to 12 persons
– it appears that members were persons who held high positions within an ‘elite’ society (I looked into a couple of them, to get a ‘gist’)
‘Hellfire Club’ via Wikipedia makes for interesting ‘revelations’.
It is interesting. Hypothetically, let’s assume that some of these people were narcissists (more than likely to be MRNs, probably Upper, maybe Greaters) with possibly co-morbidities. Some of these individuals had high level of intelligence (ie one member was 8 when he was sent to a good school because his parents recognised his level of literacy – he was the only one to survive infancy out of 6 children).
Ok, they would not have known what they were (assuming they were in fact narcissists), so, I am wondering, whether some narcissists find themselves ‘attracted’ to the ‘dark’ side of humanity (ie The Hell Fire Clubs) because they can ‘sense’ something within them and were unconsciously trying to ‘purge’ it. So, the ‘activities’ they partook in may have been a way of them trying to ‘feed the creature’ so to speak. As we have garnered from out knowledge, that amount of ‘fuel’ would have been ‘short but sweet’ to them (not the victims that suffered, or died).
It is a possibility why muvver took us to High Wycombe.
It was a few years ago when I came across something in relation to descendents inheriting DNA which included remnants of historical ‘education’. This could ‘explain’ some people’s latent talents (being naturally good at something) and / or the ‘sense’ of having ‘been in that location’ in the past. Some people may argue that it could be something that took place when someone was very young and it is a memory ie as a baby but it cannot be consciously ‘remembered’.
Hence, my wanting to visit the home of my ancestors.
I used to have a recurring dream but it was not a nightmare. Even now, I can recall it. When I would wake upon this dream, I felt a ‘calm’. Yet, I still do not make sense of what it is. It was rows of yellow eggs on shelves inside a fridge with a blue background (coincidently the same colours as my Avatar). This ‘dream’ stopped around the same time as my nightmares stopped (around the age of 11–13, when I was living at school).
I can make the ‘connection’ in relation to the recurring nightmares I had though.
Now, in relation to the film, ‘Coraline’, where ‘psychotic dissociative spectrum’ is suggested to be involved, I wonder if the subconscious mind also develops an ‘alternative reality’ and projects this through dreams (ie the ‘good’ dream I used to have).
I thought to myself, is there such an ‘unaware’ club called ‘The Blue-Rinse Ladies’? Is that why old ladies get a blue-rinse done? 😉 Laughing. I am not of that age yet where the blue-rinse would work on my hair LOL, I can dye it blue in any case 😉
Wow, thanks for doing some more research on the Hell Fire clubs, AspEmp 🙂
Ireland was under British rule at the time, so I’d assume that’s what helped create the connection. Saves me having to dig too deep for answers! From what I read they were elite members of society and there was much more detail given in the YT video I watched which indicated how their heirarchy operated. Someone in the top echelon had to die, I think, for a replacement to be nominated. They all held high positions in society, were often related in some way, and also had prostitutes dress up as nuns to attend their ‘orgies’ so they would not raise any suspicions! Their sense of entitlement leads me to believe they would have been narcissists for the most part. No rules applied, they denied any belief in God, and set themselves up to become their own ‘gods’.
I’ll have to check out that Wikipedia article for some more info.
I would say you are correct in thinking that narcissists are attracted to ‘darkness’, whether that’s a way of purging the Creature is something to consider. I tend to think it’s more that the emotions they do experience are for the most part negative, and so the negativity of the darkness draws them. Also, it helps to feed that darkness. Like attracts like, maybe? But, they experience ‘dark’ feelings, and also their narcissism directs them to feel entitled, lack boundaries, etc. which suits the nature of these gatherings.
Your mother may have taken you to High Wycombe because the ‘darkness’ in her was attracted to what the caves there represented. She may have had a fascination with that, even fed off it, and in that sense it would have made you even more vulnerable. I know this all sounds a little dramatic, and you don’t seem to have been affected badly by it, at least your visits there, but it is interesting that your mother in some ways was drawn there.
The whole issue of DNA and what is carried on our genes is a fascinating one. It may well be the reason we are drawn to some things, or feel we have experienced certain things before even though we have no memory of them. I’m always amazed at the children who can give details of a past life when it’s not possible they could know anything about it or even have any connection to the event.
That’s so interesting about your ‘calming’ dream related to the eggs. It’s almost like a dream came to rescue you out of your actual nightmare (i.e. LOCE). Blue is the colour of calm or peace, so I can see how that might fit with a calming sensation. Eggs are usually representative of new life, hence Easter eggs, though they may also have a pagan connection. Maybe the eggs represented a desire for a new or different future, or the possibility of the same. It would be calming to know you weren’t going to be in that situation forever (sending a virtual hug with that thought).
And I like the correlation you’ve made between your dream and the idea of dissociation giving you some relief, as we discussed around the movie “Coraline”. The subconscious mind is a fascinating thing in the way it can also help to rescue us, and in our dreams utilize our experiences as a means of processing them.
Haha to the unaware “blue rinse” ladies club 😛 In the past it did seem like an automatic thing where you got to a certain age and stage and the blue rinse was applied. Subconsciously they knew that ‘it was time’ and they had to join the rest of the blue rinse brethren. LOL. Definitely helped to lighten up the mood there 🙂
LET, thank you for the mention of ‘Coraline’. I thought the name was familiar. I don’t think I watched the whole film at the time when it aired on the tv. I read into a bit about it and it was interesting that it seems to be about ‘psychotic dissociative’ which appears to be measured on a spectrum. An example of this is day-dreaming, which is an escape from reality. It ranges from mild to severe.
This is something ‘new’ that I have learned about. Yet, I can understand it. Looking at it laterally, ACONs (including narcissists) would experience it at a more than ‘mild’ level because of their abuse – as children, ACONs would not consciously be aware that they do this. I suppose, this is how ‘magical thinking’ ‘forms’. Maybe in the case of non-narcissist ACONs, this can lessen as they grow older, sometimes it may remain at more than ‘mild’ level and effectively becomes a ‘condition’ in itself as FYC has shared on this blog. **All children have a form of magical thinking (including ‘imaginary’ friends), possibly because of their innocence – with their age and unconsciously aware of their cognitive processes, they have inquiring minds until they learn ‘otherwise’ (ie experiences whether it is LOCE or not). **depending whether there is other neurological ‘factors’ to take into consideration ie Aspergers.
The film ‘Coraline’ could be considered as a useful resource as part of education for children. Hence my enquiry in relation to whether HG’s ‘Narc Tales’ would be made into an animation film.
I am recalling HG’s comment (‘Impregnable’ Oct 2021) “…..the construct to be deconstructed”, these words would be apt to use when it comes to an individual who may have been referred to therapy of some kind – it would be difficult to ‘deconstruct’ someone’s (especially a child) mental and emotional health without knowing the details of the background (ie LOCE). This is one reason why it is not as easy to determine how best to assist a child through therapy. Another reason why some children are not understood, so, may not get the right support they need at the time. Some ‘doctors’ may suggest that it is “too much work”, some may say that the child is too young to be ‘analysed’ because the child will not necessarily know how to explain their thoughts / emotions = not ‘developed’ enough. A Co-Dependent (one that is subject to abuse from birth) child would struggle to communicate with a specialist should the specialist suggest that the parent (or peer) not to be in the room during consultation. This alone makes it difficult for specialists to question whether it is the right time, the right place, the right person.
And children are the future of humanity.
Apologies, Hg, for the long comment. Thank you x
Hi AspEmp, interesting that we have found two different focuses for this film and I was very focused on the ‘other’ mother as Coraline was ‘seduced’ by the notion of a mother who offered to give her everything she wanted. There could be many perspectives on this film, but the mother so typical of the narcissist became a focus for me.
You are absolutely correct to point out Coraline’s part in wanting to have a mother who was ‘available’ and treated her the way she wanted to be treated and not one who held her to account or was unavailable to her. This is, in a way, a childhood fantasy for many children, and that may be part of the warning of the story – be careful what you wish for. But there is also the very real need for mental escape from very real abuse at times, which is where I think the need for a level of dissociation comes in. Thank you for sharing FYCs previous comment which also makes sense, and imaginary play is a feature in children’s lives so it’s interesting to consider that in the context of ‘magical thinking’ when it comes to narcissists and non-narcissists alike. This element of being an ACON would be interesting to know or discover more about.
HG’s Narc Tales are a great resource in terms of using childish fairy tales to learn about narcissism simply for the entertaining twist they apply to well known tales which can provide a more light hearted look at a very dark subject. HG’s versatility is one of the things I love about his work. He has multiple ways of connecting to people and on multiple different levels, which is probably part of what makes him the “Ultra” 🙂
I’m glad you included HG’s comment about the “the construct to be deconstructed”.
When I saw that comment I thought how formidable it would be for someone to attempt to take down your defences, and in HG’s case his carefully constructed defence which he finds necessary for his survival. The enormity of what needs to be taken into consideration before doing so, and the level of vulnerability the exposure might cause, is why it appears so formidable. It almost seems cruel to want to remove that ‘covering’, knowing it is the thing that has helped him survive the traumas of his childhood, even if it stole his very self. I have so many thoughts around this, but one of the main ones right now, as you suggest, is the responsibility of the therapist when it comes to dealing with the patient or client. In the case of the narcissist, I think HG is right when he says narcissism is a hermetically sealed self defence or survival mechanism which is why the narcissist can’t engage in any kind of meaningful therapy.
AspEmp, thanks for another thoughtful comment which has me now thinking about other aspects of that movie as well as the delicacy of approach required when dealing with another’s past and trauma. Certainly children are the most vulnerable members of our society and in many ways require the most specialized treatment – they are our future, as you say.
LET, when it comes to abuse and children, they are too young to understand why it hurts and so the brain responds by starting to ‘shut’ itself off, and eventually it becomes like a switch where the child had taught themselves to ‘flick that switch’ in their mind and yet still are ‘processing’ it through their emotions until they start to learn to ‘shut’, or, ‘dull’ those emotions down. It was the child’s way of making the pain go away by adopting a form of make believe in their minds, hence the dissociation and day-dreaming. Over time, added abuse on top of the ones (memories) become the ‘layered’, effectively the suppression builds and becomes like compacted at the bottom. So, maybe this is the real ‘pain’ that gets buried (in the pit of the stomach so to speak) and is ‘retained’ there for so long. This is the ‘locked’ child, trapped and not released until the individual (ACON) permits themselves to look into it using a method (guidance, support, mentoring) that they can use to assist them through the ‘re-living’ of the original traumas that caused the pain in the first place. It damn well hurt to do it. But, it is so well worth it.
How do I know what I have just typed above?
I was one of those children. I could quite possibly say that I have released my ‘locked’ abused, vulnerable child. But I am still a vulnerable person, not specifically because of my past, because of my co-morbidities. I also am aware of my being able to ‘flick’ that switch, should the need arise ie a ‘threat to my control’ when I am outside my ‘sanctuary’ (my home).
Now, let’s apply a narcissist in the ‘theory’ I have just explained so far in this comment…..a narcissist, especially an ACON narcissist, cannot, just cannot respond to therapy in the same way as I have done. Why? I have cognitive and emotional empathy. A narcissist can read about it but won’t, because “it does not apply to them”, denial and their perception is the only perception they will ‘see’ and ‘understand’. They have no cognitive or emotional “access” to be able to understand it, never mind ‘process’ it logically. They will just continue to have their ‘abyss’ (their true self) that they cannot simply ‘grab’ onto because it will always ‘elude’ (because of acquisition of too many character traits – to work through?) them because they do not know what it is (through ‘locked’ away memories) and what they are so they learned to ‘suppress’ (their defense mechanism) it by manipulating others for attention (positive or negative) through asserting their control. Bearing in mind, this only applies to those who are unaware of what they are.
Your paragraph about HG and the construct he has. And the role of the therapist in relation to clients / patients. Yes, you do understand.
Yes, it is dangerous if someone has the wrong therapist and one that persists in continuing to batter at the door of someone’s construct that they have built around themselves. Especially when that so-called “therapist” has not walked in the same shoes as the patient. Even worse when a therapist is a narcissist themselves.
2 years ago. I sensed I was in that ‘dangerous’ place but could not get out of it (I didn’t know how, or comprehend it as I can now), I just lived through it. Maybe it is almost likened to the ‘annihilation’ and ‘oblivion’ that HG has described.
Thank god, I made it to the other side.
LET, thank you for sharing your views, you compassionate understanding. It is much appreciated.
Thank you, HG. Sorry, it’s another long comment. Thank you for your time x
AspEmp, thank you for sharing your thoughts again <3
There is quite a bit of depth to what you have added, and there is a need for 'mental' escape when physical escape is not possible. This is where an element of dissociation can come in, and I have recently watched a video (which I shared here) where there was discussion around just this type of dissociation. As a child the person sharing their story spoke of a time where they had left a children's book out in the rain and it had become rain damaged. The narcissistic mother's fury was activated when she came across it and she beat the child with it, to the point the book was breaking apart in her hands as she beat her. The child had the common sense to move to the corner of the room to protect her back and put her arms up to protect her face. In that moment she said she didn't feel the pain. She could see the pieces of the book flying willy nilly, but apart from protecting herself her only other thought was of getting to her younger brother who was sat not far away and in distress. She literally did not feel the battering that was taking place, somehow her mind dissociated from the pain and worked to shut it out as she focused on survival. In other words, dissociation is a very effective method of survival when it comes to abuse.
Interestingly I watched a program recently called "Monsters Inside: The 24 Faces of Billy Milligan" about a man who was an accused serial rapist back in the 1970's. He was reported to have Dissociative Identity Disorder, or DID, and this came about due to a LOCE during his childhood. The story is fascinating, the abuse sounded horrific, and it raised questions around his level of guilt. There's more to the story, but I think I've used up enough of HG's moderating time for today, so all I will say is that it's been documented, but also disbelieved by some, that some people will literally develop different personalities to cope with extreme abuse. These personalities look after the child in the circumstances and I'm not sure of subsequent successful attempts to integrate them.
I think the narcissist has completely dissociated from themselves, as in the only remnant is the Creature who they despise. The construct is less a protective measure (as in multiple peronsalities) and more a defensive measure (keeping the Creature in and taking from others to create their facade). Someone with DID, I assume, has created the personalities within the context of their own mind, not gathered character traits from others, even though both could be chameleon in the sense they can appear differently at different times and to different people. One will 'lose time', the other will 'compartmentalize'. Both attributes of abuse I would imagine.
Yet another trajectory as we tackle the subject matter at hand!
Billy was incarcerated in both prison and mental institutions with differing Court judgements, and one thing that really struck me was what one psychiatric carer said about him – that the facility was divided between those who believed him and those who did not. It wasn't that long ago I made another comment here in relation to a podcast with a Psychiatrist who said she always knew who the psychopaths were in prison because they divided the prison population. It raised the question in my mind if Billy may have been a very adept narcissistic psychopath who knew how to beat the system. Or, at least he tried.
That's awful to hear about your previous experience, too, AspEmp. You must have felt very trapped in the circumstances and obviously that is not what therapy is meant to be. It can honestly be the best or worst experience we've ever had and I'm glad you managed to come out the other side OK. I imagine you have a strength of character from what you have experienced that enabled you to get through that, but like the experiences that went before you should never have had to go through it.
This site has allowed us to see so many things we would not have seen before xox
LET, I am combing the 3 comments on this thread…..(there’s the ‘magic’ number LOL).
Hmmm. HG maul muvver? It’s not the same at not being able to hear it (or see it) compared to reading it. I’d have it done otherwise (no offense to HG personally :-)).
RE: my old boss. Yes, he did a huge thing for me and it is only in the last year that I realise how much he actually did for me. I think he knows what he did changed my life in that respect. He is probably the only person I’d ‘contact’ to thank him but I’d like to think that he is ok with what he did at the time is enough.
Thank you for clarifying your meaning RE: acceptance. Thank you also for accepting and understanding my ‘stance’ on that 🙂
Being able to ‘put it back onto the narcissist’ in the way we have been so lucky to do so by using this blog. The calm / peace I have is unbelievable. I never thought I would every be able to feel / think this way. As I recognised this ‘darkness’ I had within me when I was in hospital after my heart attack and saying to my friend at the time, I don’t want to die carrying this ‘darkness’ within me. I don’t have to now. Knowing that, is part of my ‘peace’. That is what HG has given me the opportunity to do and he deserves my recognition and respect on that alone (thank you, HG xx).
Second comment….(oh, god, how long is this one going to be thinks HG ;-))
Wow, dressing up as nuns?! I did enjoy reading more into the Hellfire Clubs, with HG’s ‘Woke : The Rise of Narcissism on the Left’ in my mind. The Hellfire Clubs discussion we have had would actually give other people an opportunity to gain another ‘insight’ to see narcissism from another angle so to speak. And the fact it happened over 250 years ago, more historical ‘examples’.
I don’t think muvver had a ‘fascination’ for the Hellfire Caves as such. She never indicated this within the house via pictures or objects. How can she? She didn’t know what she was trying to ‘purge’ but she certainly ‘acted’ it out. She never went into the very deep ones in Crete, I can understand – maybe she didn’t want to get ‘trapped’ in there, her ‘creature’ would have come to the fore and maybe she had experienced ‘oblivion’ at some point in her life. Either way, I feel no compassion for her.
RE: my dream (‘the eggs in the fridge’ LOL), maybe it was connected to my deep past (ancestors) or ‘guidance’ of the future? I could have died, 3 occasions in my life but didn’t. It was not necessarily me thinking ‘I want to survive / live’. It was as if ‘guidance’ was ‘intervening’. An element of ‘fate’ to it? Maybe my ‘inner’ spirit guide is a cat? (LOL). 6 more lives left then 😉 Interesting suggestion RE: pagan, they used to celebrate the birthday of the Sun on 25th December. Ah, that’s very ‘telling’, now we know 🙂
Agh! Do you think the old ladies went ‘further’ with their hair dyes (laughing, almost hysterically….). Ah, now we have it. That is where the expression ‘blue balls’ comes in!!! Mystery solved. LOL.
Third comment….(sorry HG, thank you, love you).
Ah, bless you, I started laughing at “pieces of the book flying willy nilly”. I know it is not a funny subject – abuse, narcissism.
Dissociation is not taught but learned. It is effective. It is good that the human mind has that ability to develop this form of ‘shielding’ its ‘owner’. It is positive, or negative, whichever way it is looked at. At the same time, it’s destructive. As it causes ‘disconnection’ from people ie in future relationships. An example, my aunt and my relationship ‘bond’ became almost non-existent for around 30 years.
Having said that, HG’s ‘no contact’ is a way of dissociation. So our discussing it can aid people’s understanding on more what ‘no contact’ is.
I liked your perception on someone with DID, separating it from a narcissist’s ‘version’ of dissociation.
Thank you, RE: my ‘inner’ strength, I am thankful for ‘possessing’ it as such. I think it’s a DNA combination of my father (what he was) and my grandmother (what she was). Added by HG’s work and his blog, of course.
Thank you, HG, for your time xxx
LET, BTW my ‘date’ with Christopher Lee was before I left home at 22 years old. Muvver was ‘away’ (thank fk for that!). I was drinking Taboo and was quite pissed when sis got back home and she says to me “You are more pissed than I am and I have been to the pub!” (LOL). Then she sits on the floor with me and we continue to be ourselves (and drinking), blissfully pissed without Muvver in the house…….