Muddy Hell



I have a busy day today. Much to do and many people to do it to but when you have someone’s interests at heart, well, this is what you have to do isn’t it? I have the list of telephone numbers which I have noted down from your telephone when I gained access to it. It was not difficult to do so. Using my famous ability to move around without making much of a noise I stole up behind you and watched you enter the passcode for your phone and I stored that in my memory to enable me to use it when you were sleeping. Naturally I had a good look through all your messages, your diary and e-mails but that is for another discussion. I recognised the names of numerous people and made a note of their numbers inside my little book and then hid that in readiness for when I decided it was time I needed to use it. Now that time has come and it is incumbent on me to take this step.

The first number I enter into my phone is that of Sarah, a friend of yours. She answers after two rings. Like many people she is surgically attached to the ‘phone.

“Hello Sarah it is HG. Listen, I just wanted to let you know, since you are such a good friend of hers, that Gemma is, well I think the easiest way to describe it is that she is not well, not well at all. What do I mean? She has been acting rather strangely. The slightest thing seems to either have her shouting or crying. At first I wondered if it was just, you know, women’s things, but it has been going on for months now. You had no idea? No I know, I have not said anything before because well I was hoping I could help her  deal with it but it is beyond even me. I am going to get her some help. I try and talk to her about it but she just clams up on me, gives me silence and then a little later accuses me of not caring. I don’t think she is sleeping properly either and it takes me an age to get her to eat. Should you come round? No, thank you, that is kind of you, but I don’t want her to do anything which might upset you. She is very erratic in her behaviour but it is something more than just mood swings. I am going to get her the proper help but I am just forewarning you that if she contacts you just be aware that she is not herself. She has been saying things about people, me included, which are not very nice and I don’t want this period of illness to affect her relationship with her friends, you know how some people can be overly sensitive to what someone says and they miss the point they are unwell. Yes, that’s right. Yes I think it would be a good idea if you just give her some space. Yes, absolutely. If she does contact me, let me know, you have my number on your ‘phone now. Yes I will pass on your kind words and thanks for your help Sarah, it is much appreciated at this difficult time.”

I end the call and place a tick next to Sarah’s name. She was most understanding and fully appreciate the need for space in order to allow you to get better. Now, who is next. Ah yes, another of your friends, Helen. I call Helen and explain the situation almost word-for-word as I did with Sarah. She asks more details about what is wrong and I reluctantly tell her about the violence and the lying. She is shocked I can tell and she spends some time searching for an amateur diagnosis as to what it might be. I listen as she drones on, checking my watch and noting I have other names to get through too. Eventually I am able to conclude the call and place another tick. I continue working my way through your list of friends, the ticks adding up. Next is John, your fitness instructor.

“Hello John, this is HG, Gemma’s partner. We haven’t met. Look John, difficult call to make but Gemma is unwell at present. It is pretty serious. Yes, thank you, it is a difficult time but I am doing the best I can to help her. It is unclear at present what it is, I am organising for a doctor to come and see her today but it is making her very difficult to be around. She may be suffering from some kind of breakdown brought on by exhaustion. Yes, it is a worry. I know you would not have thought it to look at her outside of our house but I think this has been brewing for some time, you know, she even started telling me that she was going to marry you. Yes I know that is ridiculous isn’t it? You are already married? I thought you were. Don’t worry, I know nothing is going on, I am sure you are far too professional for that kind of thing, but this is part of the problem, she keeps coming out with outlandish comments and I can handle it but I worry others might not so she won’t need your services until further notice. Payment? Well yes if she has an agreement with you then just continue to take her monthly payment after all this is not your fault is it? I will let you know when she is well again but just in case she tries to contact you I think it would be best if you don’t take her calls, I don’t want her causing you any trouble especially between you and your wife. Thank you John, your discretion is appreciated.”

Another tick and a similar call is made to your choral group and your book club. Next is your employer. I made you take today off under the pretence of you gaining a lie in and then us doing something together. We stayed up late last night so you are still fast asleep upstairs allowing me to make these important telephone calls. Your employer is understanding and I can confirm that arrangements will be made to provide the relevant doctor’s note because I explained this situation is likely to last a number of weeks. My preparation thus segues into arranging for the local doctor to make a house call after I explain to the receptionist, in worried tones, that having you leave the house in your current state might be a risk to both you and other people. She was most understanding and confirmed that a doctor would attend after surgery, around 5pm. Next on the list are your family members. I secured the advantage of persuading you to move with me away from them and they are now a flight away. The inconvenience of having to fly and the distance is something I play on as I call your parents and your sister, forewarning them that they may experience some unpleasant comments about them and especially me given her condition. I assure them that I am taking care of you and there is really no need for them to come all this way. I confirm I will keep them updated and they are pleased I have taken time off work to care for you and that I have arranged for a doctor to attend. I spend considerable time reeling off examples of the terrible behaviour you have exhibited, explaining the awful things I have been subjected to and the lies you have told about me, your friends and family. I explain that I can deal with it but I just feel so sorry for your parents and your sister having to hear such things and in order to prevent it happening again the best thing is to contact me and not you and to keep you at arms’ length. I explain I understand that it is hard but it will be the best outcome for all concerned if you are prevented from lashing out and hurting people. My explanations and good intentions are accepted and thanks is offered for my understanding and support.

The final tick is placed on the list and I place both ‘phone and pen down. I really should go and wash my hands now after smearing all that mud around.

78 thoughts on “Muddy Hell

  1. NarcAngel says:

    HG has written an article: A Bad Man Doing A Good Job that you can find using the search function.

    There are indeed many definitions of what is considered “good”. Prosocial debatable as well.

    Personally, I see Leigh’s view that you can be grateful while seeing HG fully for what he is as a healthy. He has been open here and reminded us on many an occasion that any benefit to us as the result of his work is residual in nature and not his prime aim or driving force. We would do well to pay heed to that. If we do not, I believe we fail to grasp the greater point of his work entirely.

    1. A Victor says:

      It is a matter of cognitive dissonance when what is done and what is said oppose each other. With the narcs that have been in my life, I would’ve been wise to believe what they did, not what they said. Here I think it is a matter of what is said is done privately, as opposed to what is being said privately, that we need to look at. It may be that public view we are allowed to see, of the private, as well as our public and personal view of we who are being helped, that can be confusing. And it is confusing but many of us know what is real within the real relationship, we’ve lived it, that’s where the focus must stay for me. It is why my heart breaks for SM even with the “good” done for her. She is an object, there is no love, no empathy etc. It is not a complete life experience, it is not fair to her and there is no changing of that, only a hope to extend the golden period. I have to keep my focus on the correct place, I can’t allow myself leniency in this or I fear for what would happen.

    2. Violetta says:


      I’d rather deal with enlightened self-interest than the low-functioning narcs who don’t notice or care that they’re sabotaging themselves in their efforts to sabotage others. Stupid people can be dangerous by accident. HG will be dangerous only if he wants to be.

    3. Leigh says:

      Thank you NA

    4. Violetta says:


      Looked up article you recommended. Excellent explanation of dynamics involved. Thank you.

  2. A Victor says:

    Asp Emp, thank you for your comment. You really said it well regarding our ability to grow from what we were. Your final thought about us being the only people with the luxury to become so enriched as people is perfect. I think that will be my theme for today, thank you. I had not thought of it that way before but I agree.

    Most days, things are getting easier Asp Emp, it’s work but the work does work. Thanks!

    1. Asp Emp says:

      AV, I appreciate your words on my comment. Thank you. I am glad that things are getting easier for you 🙂

  3. Poison says:

    What I find most disturbing about this isn’t the narcissist’s behaviour–which at least makes logical sense from a narcissist’s perspective–but the fact many normal and empathic people would so easily believe the narcissist’s lies about someone they know; especially if they claim to know the person well. If someone suggested I ought not to reach out to a loved one directly, that would make me uneasy and all the more likely to get in touch.

    It’s unsettling that crying “madness!” is still such an effective strategy for convincing people to stay away from someone they otherwise love.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Good observations.

      1. Poison says:

        Thank you kindly.

    2. Another Cat says:

      “but the fact many normal and empathic people would so easily believe the narcissist’s lies about someone they know”

      Yes well they are rather sneaky, Midrangers and Greaters. They don’t often say some is an ahole or evil, instead they talk very mildly and slowly and say that the new person, or friend, “has problems, is stressed out, has mental challenge”. To make that person less credible.

      The feeling-sorry-sticky-smearers.

      Very difficult to question their statements.

      Many, many don’t question them.

  4. Rebecca says:

    Oh, my narcissist tried this, it didn’t work. My friends have known me for years and they know my behaviors and that I’m not one to not talk with them about issues. It was a nice attempt , but another failed plan by him. It’s almost funny.

    1. Poison says:

      The “like” button doesn’t work on my browser, so I’m liking by comment instead! Your friends sound wonderful. I’m so glad that they easily saw through the narcissists bullshit and stood by you. ^_^

      1. Rebecca says:

        Thanks Poison, I agree with you, my friends are awesome and they know I’m not one to hold back from saying my peace, speaking my mind whatever you call it…..I don’t hold back issues I’m having, I share them with friends and they come to me with their issues and I like solving issues and taking a part problems. I ask or dig until I get my answers, very much a nosy empath lol

  5. Asp Emp says:

    Would I start saying “muddy hell” instead of ‘bloody hell’ in a few years time when the fooking supermarket have not got honey on the shelf? I could, actually could, use my new-learned ‘re-programming’ methods that I was only able to ‘master’ the art of via HG’s educating style.

    Hmmm, maybe not. fk it, I’ll stick with the most effective words that I’ve been using for a number of years 🙂

    1. Violetta says:

      In a pinch, there’s always “Ruddy Hell.” Or Golden Syrup.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        Violetta, thank you for your suggestions, I find the less syllables, the quicker my grenade(s) can be delivered…… that way I can deliver 4 words, if deemed ‘necessary’ 🙂

  6. Duchessbea says:

    HG, you are a total darling the way you help all of us out, but a total bastard to poor Gemma. My heart goes out to her. Best, DB

    1. HG Tudor says:

      If you let me down, there will be consequences.

      1. Duchessbea says:

        HG, I don’t mean to come across angry at you. To be honest I’m a little bit passed off and I have been for a few weeks. My sister is just a nightmare. All over the holidays everyone was fawning all over her and treating her with kid gloves. Yes, she had a chappy couple of years, I get that. But she also did a lot of bad stuff against me and all of my siblings. I was courteous to her over the festive period, but everyone else treated her like a rock star and she lapped it up, pouting when she didn’t get her own way, never lifted a finger to help prepare any meals or anything else. What she did against me was bad, but what she did to some of my other siblings was worse. Not only that but she also took one of my other sisters cars at 3 in the morning to go for a spin around the neighbourhood because she wanted a bit of excitement. I tried to stop her but she did it anyway and dented the front bumper when she got back. Nothing was said. The comments passed by my two older brothers ‘great to see her getting back to her old self’. Fcuking nightmare more like if you ask me. I don’t mean to sound ungrateful, of course I’m glad my sister is well again, but she just seems to be taking it to the extremes. I wasn’t happy about her behaviour over the festive season to present day, and I voiced my opinions on same, only to be told by my oldest brother that as I am the youngest, my opinion did not matter and everyone agreed with him. Because I did not, and am not going to go along with everyone else’s idea that her behaviour is fine, it caused a lot of arguments to the point where I am now being excluded by some of my siblings. It was great to read about attachment. Helped my logical thinking greatly. I can’t help that I care and very much want to make sure she is okay. But they all just sat there enjoying the show and she made sure to entertain her audience. A small fortune was paid for her to attend rehab and get her back on track, and it did get her back on track. But I don’t know, her behaviour just seemed to over the top that I would not be surprised but she was taking something and still is. The next family get together is one of my sisters 40th next month. I have been told to stay away if I am going to cause an argument. After looking at attachment, I think I will stay away. I am not trying to cause arguments, I am saying what needs to be said. I hope I am wrong about my sister but something tells me that her behaviour and attitude will never change. Apologies again HG, if you thought I was having a go at you, I wasn’t. I’m just very annoyed with how stupid and reckless my siblings seem to be. As my sister did the same to me, over the holiday season in order to get people to ignore how she was behaving and make me look like the troublemaker for questioning her, I know how Gemma feels. Best, DB

        1. Violetta says:


          I don’t know if HG has a specific term for a Golden Child who is coddled less for supposed talents than for some pitiable condition (“Oh, look: Cyril drew a tree with his crayons! Yes, Nigel, we’re very happy about your exhibition in the Tate Gallery, but we already talked about that, and it’s Cyril’s 30th birthday, you know”), but your family definitely has one. It’s all the more annoying if “Cyril” isn’t genuinely challenged.

      2. Rebecca says:

        HG, Why am I grinning over your comment here? *giggle*

    2. Asp Emp says:

      To be fair, HG was young when he met Gemma.

      1. Duchessbea says:

        Asp Emp, it is a great article by HG and shows things from the narcs point of view perfectly, but in my posting this, it doesn’t matter whether he was young or old. Everyone knows the difference between right and wrong. It’s the context I’m referring to. My sister knows the difference between right and wrong, but she chose to badmouth me as I was questioning her way over the top antics and behaviour. She tried to make me out to be the troublemaker, and she is older than I am, and should know better. My siblings were enabling her behaviour and she was lapping it up. I can see another trip to Rehab on the cards this year, (I hope I’m wrong). I was trying to help her and she didn’t give a toss. It’s hard when you care about someone and they are just being beyond unreasonable. One thing I did do with my sisters and brothers this year was to take a step back and watch them all interacting with each other, their wives, husbands, boyfriends, girlfriends and children. I’d never done that before and it was interesting as I saw things about them, that I had seen before, but just never paid attention to. If I wasn’t related to my sisters and brothers I certainly would not hang out with them. Not my type of people. I don’t mean that in a snobbish way. I would never have come to that realisation or have seen them for who they really are if it wasn’t for HG’s help and advice. Even my own twin, we are like chalk and cheese. I’m so thankful for my friends, they are more like a family to me. The more you get to grips with understanding narcissism and how narcissists operate, the more you will want nothing to do with them, and not have them in your life. I think that is one reason why I have been so pissed off these last few weeks. I am someone who cares a great deal about these relationships and can’t just turn that off, and all of them my sisters and brothers, just don’t give a toss, and that will never change. That is hard to accept, but I have to accept it, deal with it, and move on. Best, DB

      2. Poison says:

        Do you really suppose he’s changed much, though? Given he says himself that, as a narcissist, he can’t? (Genuinely curious, not trying to be pokey! ^^;;)

        1. Asp Emp says:

          Poison, HG evolves, just like other humans do as they process through life. I’ve ‘evolved’ a great deal since arriving to KTN, some parts of me are ‘hard-wired’, some are not but I much prefer what I now have ‘evolved’ into 🙂

          1. A Victor says:

            Hi Asp Emp, I think HG’s hardwired parts are his narcissism so the evolving only makes him better at what he does, not better at not being a narcissist. He doesn’t see how that would be better, so would reject it anyway, from what I understand.

          2. Asp Emp says:

            AV, in my view, the ‘hard-wiring’ = core characteristics of a person. All of us having narcissistic traits get better at ‘using’ them, once we learn about them of course 🙂
            HG is not a ‘pure’ narcissist as he describes in his recent interview with Doug (I have yet to complete reading that). I believe HG does ‘see’ better now than he did previously and would not necessarily reject it.

          3. A Victor says:

            Hi Asp Emp, I had lost this comment, sorry for the delay in getting back to you. It may be a matter of semantics only, that is possible.

            In my thinking, the narcissism is the narcissist’s hardwiring, at the point at which it takes over. From that point, because empathic traits are gone completely, there is nothing to “build” on, so to speak, to be a better person, only a better narcissist. And I believe that the psychopathy only makes this outcome more certain, rather than less certain, in the case of HG specifically. I think he can be, and is, phenomenal in his pretense at empathy but I believe it is only and can only ever be pretense.

            As I said, perhaps it is a matter of semantics more than anything. Perhaps you are saying as he improves his ability to present fake empathy, he sees the benefit to doing so, this I do agree with, but in my mind, only for the purposes of using them within his narcissism, and perhaps his psychopathy, more efficiently. For me, believing he can “overcome” this, ie see the benefit of becoming empathic basically, when he states himself that he sees no benefit to doing so, and also that it is not possible for them to do so, is emotional thinking. I cannot allow myself the luxury of such thinking, it only suffices to make my journey toward my healing more difficult, serving to give me hope where I believe I am better if there is none. I do look forward to your further thoughts on this, I am open to the idea that I am misunderstanding something and in no way trying to be disagreeable. Thank you for your reply above, it has helped me hone my thoughts further.

          4. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, it does seem like a luxury to think that way when hope is the last thing we need when it comes to the narcissist. I wish it could be different and have expressed that thought here before, but it is only wishful thinking which I prefer not to indulge in any more either. Cold, hard logic all the way when it comes to the narcissist.

          5. A Victor says:

            Thanks LET. Good grief, I can so see my hesitance in that comment, when Leigh put it so much better and without apology. Damn. Some days I just feel like I still have so far to go.

          6. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, I think we can all hesitate to express our thoughts here sometimes as we try to be aware of other people’s sensitivities, including being respectful of HG, and sometimes someone just gets it in a nutshell. It’s direct, but not offensive and a simple statement of fact. I think HG appreciates these types of comments as they carry no emotion and in that sense we may all have a long way to go <3 Finding the balance between what is logical and emotional and how to fine tune that for the purposes of expressing ourselves clearly can take time.

            Leigh did a great job … me, not so much 😛

          7. A Victor says:

            LET, this is a very kind reply, thank you.

          8. Leigh says:

            Mr. Tudor’s goal is still to meet the Prime Aims. He’s learned to be a more effective manipulator. His cognitive empathy fools us into believing he has emotional empathy. Thats our ET giving us false hope he can change. He can only become more effective but he will never have emotional empathy. We have all taught him how to be more effective. He has acquired our character traits.

          9. Asp Emp says:

            Leigh, thank you for your response. My words “HG evolves, just like other humans do as they process through life”. We all “can become more effective” by our own ‘evolutions’. HG is not the only person to prove that, he has done a bloody good job at it though – for the benefit of humanity as well as his own.

          10. Leigh says:

            Asp, this is the sentence I struggled with:

            “I believe HG does ‘see’ better now than he did previously and would not necessarily reject it.”

            Yes, I suppose it’s true that Mr. Tudor does “see” better. However, I believe that what he sees better is a better way to manipulate. This why I struggle with the word evolve also. I mean technically Mr. Tudor has evolved but not into a better person, just a better manipulator.

          11. HG Tudor says:

            Your version of “better” is not the only version of “better”.

          12. Leigh says:

            You are 100% correct. I misspoke. What I should have said is it doesn’t matter how much you evolve, you will never evolve into someone who has emotional empathy. You can only become better at sharpening your cognitive empathy.

          13. HG Tudor says:


          14. A Victor says:

            Hi Leigh, that was my point also, thank you for being more clear than I was in your presentation of it. I understand the idea of bad people doing good things, as HG once pointed out, Ted Bundy did good things, volunteered as a crisis center hotline worker, rescued a child from drowning etc…but he was still a very bad person. I believe Bundy did these things for some purpose of his own, that he took what he learned and improved his skills, but it did not make him a better, ie empathic, person.

          15. Leigh says:

            Exactly AV! Bad people do good things for people. But they will only do something good if it serves their purpose. Mr. Tudor does nice things for us because it serves his purpose, not because he’s altruistic.

          16. Asp Emp says:

            HG, thank you.

          17. Asp Emp says:

            Leigh, I may suggest it’s a matter of perceptions and understanding. In HG’s defense, his prosocial activities far outshine many that would not do what he actually does do and continues to do for humanity. Because of that, he has evolved into a better person.

            My comment to AV –

          18. Leigh says:

            Asp, I really do get what your saying. How can he not be a good person when he has done so much for so many of us? It doesn’t negate the fact that he has no emotional empathy and no matter how much cognitive empathy he acquires, he will always be a narcissistic psychopath.

            Did you see Mr. Tudor’s response to Rebecca where he says he enjoys inflicting pain? Here’s the link if you missed it:


            I’m beyond thankful for what he has done for me but I see him very clearly.

          19. Asp Emp says:

            Leigh, thank you for sharing your perceptions. Yes, I saw HG’s comment to Rebecca. Thank you for sharing the link. I also saw Rebecca’s response back to HG’s comment – I can understand what both of HG and Rebecca has to say. I think the term is ‘mitigating circumstances’ at that present LOCE in time ‘contributes’ to the ‘response’ to the LOCE in the now. In fact, Rebecca explains it very well in her comment and I have similar ‘views’ as an adult for similar ‘reasons’ (experience, injustice as a child etc). I stand by my earlier comment.

          20. Leigh says:

            Asp, I supposed we are at an impasse. We will just have to agree to disagree.

          21. A Victor says:

            Thank you for sharing this Leigh. What stood out to me when I read this was HG’s use of the present tense, “I enjoy inflicting pain.”. In my mind, this leaves no doubt that actual change has not occurred and the word “enjoy” indicates to me that there is no need seen for changing that behavior or thinking. The word “driven”, used in the sentence just ahead of this one, to me indicates that HG is relentlessly compelled by a need to inflict pain, therefore not only no desire for change but again, no real option for it. That combination means no change, to my thinking. Pro-social can perhaps alter how, when or where it manifests but HG is still the same. I love him for what he’s done for me, regardless of his “drawbacks” shall we say, but, to ignore those drawbacks would be only a fools errand.

          22. Leigh says:

            Well stated and I completely agree

          23. A Victor says:

            Thank you Leigh.

          24. A Victor says:

            Asp Emp, thank you for this comment, now I understand what you meant, I think. And I agree. Many here are proof to that.

          25. Asp Emp says:

            AV, thank you for your response. RE: “Many here are proof of that” – exactly. We arrive here to KTN as ‘evolved’ into what we became by ‘forced’ “programming” (manipulations, gas-lighting etc etc). While we are here, using and applying the resources on this blog, the aim is to re-train our brains to become more effective as individuals and evolve at the same time. Thus improving who and what we are at present.

            We are also acquiring character traits too – by being given names to recognise what we already possess (via TDC / EDC) and using those to build up on our own characteristics – strengthening the weaker ones and learning more about the ‘dark tetrad’ traits that we have. I believe we all have varying levels of the ‘dark tetrad’ traits within ourselves. We are also acquiring Narcspeak as a language, to use when we come across, say, a Lesser in a supermarket in the future (wisdom).


            If you think about it, the empaths in the world are the only ‘group’ of people who have the luxury to become so enriched as people.

            I hope that things are getting easier for you, AV.

          26. A Victor says:

            Asp Emp, I’m not sure why but my reply to this comment went to the bottom of the whole thread…it’s there if you want to read it, rather than reposting. 🙂

          27. lickemtomorrow says:

            Leigh, I never thought of it that way in terms of the acquisition of our character traits.

            On the basis of that HG can be much more effective since he has no emotional empathy of his own. For the most part he has us convinced and there is a part of me that is glad. If I took the harshness of what it means to be a narcissistic psychopath to its logical end, then there would be no heart and no soul and also no opportunity for me to benefit from what such an existence can teach me.

          28. Leigh says:

            Hi LET, I disagree just a teeny bit. If you take the narcissistic psychopath to its logical end, then yes, there would be no heart and no soul. Mr. Tudor has said on many occasions his heart is black and he has no soul. Here’s is where I disagree with you, I think we still have a huge opportunity and we can still benefit from his teachings, as long as we see Mr. Tudor for what he is, a narcissistic psychopath. Its why I only address him as Mr. Tudor. He’s my teacher, nothing more. The rose colored glasses are off. I also see that we are dependent on one another. He needs us for character traits and residual benefits and we need him for his knowledge.

          29. A Victor says:

            I agree with your assessment Leigh. I would add that I have found the various types of interaction that I’ve had with HG to be all useful in some way for my own learning, also with the knowledge that he gets some, very insignificant because I’m a tertiary source, benefits also. But yes, keeping him in proper perspective, as a narcissistic psychopath and as my teacher, absolutely important.

          30. Leigh says:

            AV, don’t sell yourself short, what you give Mr.. Tudor is not insignificant. Maybe the fuel is but your character traits and residual benefits are plentiful.

          31. A Victor says:

            Hi Leigh, no, I wasn’t selling myself short really, I’m just aware of my place in his fuel matrix and also what our interactions have been etc. It’s insignificant in that regard but all of us together, I believe, have given him a LOT! As you said earlier and it would be a cumulative effect, I’m sure. We’re all little tiny pieces of the overall picture, of HG’s legacy! Yay! 🙂

          32. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hi Leigh, I think I’ll need to review my musings 😛

            First off, thanks for your response, which has helped me see where I went wrong 😉

            We definitely have an opportunity to benefit from HG’s teachings and part of the reason why is because he has acquired our character traits as you so succinctly stated.

            When I mentioned taking his narcissistic psychopathy to its logical conclusion, I was imagining that without this character trait acquisition and how it would be impossible for him to reach us without it, or for us to respond to him the way we do. In a way, I was affirming the point you were making.

            I also take you point about referring to HG as Mr. Tudor, which is how you would normally refer to any teacher out of both tradition and respect. It’s also a means to keep from becoming ‘over familiar’ and place the relationship in its right perspective. Important to occasionally take those rose coloured glasses off.

            I like your last comparison as well, stating we are dependent on one another. We are indeed in this circumstance and I really appreciate you sharing those thoughts which help to clarify all of our positions here 🙂

          33. Leigh says:

            I hadn’t thought of that but you are 100% correct. Mr. Tudor needed our traits in order for us to be receptive. Some major light bulb moments today for me also. Thank you.

          34. Witch says:

            Just wanted to make a comment that HG mentioned during the Q&A that he has secondary sources that he is not having sex with yet… my guess is that he is preparing replacements for when the inevitable devaluation of SM occurs… hhmm
            HG appears to be nomadic in nature and I don’t believe his wandering eye will ever change

          35. Leigh says:

            I wish there was a dislike button. This is what upset me, “he has secondary sources that he is not having sex with yet.” Yet???? Ugh!

          36. A Victor says:

            @Witch, I caught this also, and also a question about an engagement was also stated but then ignored, does this have to happen with this particular IPPS, for control? Then the one about the Dom/sub relationship with the IPPS, another one that stood out to me as an indicator of no change. If anyone has listened to some of the DC recordings, we know this can be very bad for the IPPS. It is an interesting thing to watch as it develops, all the way around, but I will continue to feel sad for SM.

          37. Witch says:

            @ A Victor

            The devil is in the details…
            I don’t doubt that HG has changed how he reacts to or deals with things in a way that would encourage longevity to the relationship but even empaths get bored and weary, however we have empathic traits which rein our narc traits in…but if you are a narc and you start getting bored, well….

          38. A Victor says:


        2. Violetta says:

          If anything, he’s more efficient now.

          1. A Victor says:

            Yes, thank you Violetta, this put my thoughts into words.

        3. Violetta says:


          I only found this site in 2019, but I’ve been meaning to scroll through the archives for his earliest posts, so I can see what, if anything, has changed since then. That would probably be the best place for any recent Tudorites to start, if we want to know what HG “evolving” means. We know it does NOT mean ceasing to be a narcissist, even if we have trouble processing or accepting that fact.

          1. A Victor says:

            Awesome suggestion!

          2. Violetta says:

            Several other Tudorites told me how to do it, when I expressed curiosity about changes longtime readers had noticed.

          3. Poison says:

            Thank you, that’s an excellent suggestion. I only discovered HG’s YouTube, etc, in December of last year, so you’re well ahead of me! You’re exactly right: there’s no question HG grows and changes for the better over time, with “better” understood in the context of his becoming a more efficient and thus effective narcissistic psychopath. It’s that context of “better” that’s all important, and often hard for us empaths to understand.

            Thank you for replying, and sorry for not commenting back sooner! I always forget to hit the damn “notify me of new comments” button, and then I can’t remember which posts I commented on. ^^;;; So glad I finally saw your reply here!

          4. Leigh says:

            Hi Poison, WordPress is terrible with notifications. I find that I have to search the articles myself for replies to my comments. For someone who has just found Mr. Tudor’s site in December, your logical thinking already seems high.

          5. Violetta says:


            I hit the button, and it tells me nothing. Tried opening another account with different flower gravatar, worked for a while, then went back to telling me nothing.

  7. A Victor says:

    And much of this goes on without our knowledge until later, sometimes much later, when it’s to their advantage, of course.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Indeed. The smearing is part of the second assertion of control which creates a picture of the smeared individual which can later be capitalised upon.

      1. A Victor says:

        Your comment reminded me to listen to The Three Assertions of Control again. Good reminder, thank you.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You’re welcome

        2. Poison says:

          As your comment has now done for me. Thank you.

          1. A Victor says:

            You’re welcome Poison. 🙂

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