Jada Pinkett Smith : What is Her Hold Over Will Smith?

88 thoughts on “Jada Pinkett Smith : What is Her Hold Over Will Smith?

  1. Violetta says:

    Here is the most surprising thing about this whole situation, at least to me. I skipped ahead to the Corden vs. Jada vid because I knew HG would cremate them both. Someone recommended the Corden roasts for perspective, and it occurred to me that I might not get some of the reverenced without being familiar with his work. I watched some clips of Carpool Karaoke, and got nothing: it wasn’t funny, but it also wasn’t the kind of off-the-cuff duets you could find on the old variety shows on the Retro channels, where the host/ess will usually do at least one number with the guest singer. Was the problem that I hadn’t watched an entire episode, so I wasn’t getting the context?

    Did some more research, and suddenly realized I had seem him: he played the Baker in the 2014 Into the Woods. I couldn’t remember what I had thought about him. It’s a show I know pretty well: I did it in a church basement years ago, and have seen it with multiple casts: the American Playhouse version with Bernadette Peters, a dress rehearsal of another church basement production my vocal coach was music directing, etc. When my vocal coach saw the version in Central Park, we of course did a postmortem on it as well as other versions, discussing how they had staged this scene or that song, interpretation of character, even specific line-readings.

    So I look up my emails to see what I said about Corden. I had plenty to say about the amazing young actors who played Jack and Little Red, my disappointment with script and score cuts that I thought detracted from the point of the show, and so on, but I had nothing to say about Corden, good or bad. The man had left no impression on me whatever.

  2. Jdhers says:

    HG. Do you believe Pinkett is entering the discard phase?

    1. HG Tudor says:


      1. A Victor says:

        HG, why do you believe Jada Pinkett-Smith is not entering the discard phase?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You’ll have to wait for that answer.

          1. A Victor says:

            Oh yay! Something to look forward to!! I can’t wait for this one!! I am so curious about this! Thanks for the reply HG!

        2. BC30 says:

          Why would she discard? She’s got the sweet spot all lined up.

          (Also, has Will triggered the discard as per HG’s educational material? 🤔)

          1. A Victor says:

            Ooohhhh, good thinking, I will try to remember to look at that next time before I ask! Also, once I heard the reason, I said “Duh” to myself! 😂 I should’ve already known it!

  3. lickemtomorrow says:

    The use of the empath’s vulnerabilities against them.

    This is one I find it very hard to get my head around.

    Narcissus: Let’s just see where you are vulnerable and now let’s give it a little poke. Hmmm, nice bit of juicy fuel coming from that reaction. I’ll keep that ‘button’ in mind.

    It’s ‘button pushing’ for a reaction. That’s what I call it.

    Empath: You found my weak spot. Please be gentle with it.

    Narc: Of course 🙂 (not a chance when I can use it to refuel).

    The use of our vulnerabilities to cause us to attack others I find harder to understand.

    It is well explained here with the sense of loyalty to the narcissist corrupting either our empathic or narcissistic traits, which no doubt also ties in with emotional thinking. We’re already wired up to react in one way or another due to high emotional thinking so we may attack others in defense of the narcissist due to our sense of loyalty to them.

    My understanding in this situation is helping add to my understanding around Harry’s situation also. While I disagree with actions, I can see at the same time what has potentially prompted the behaviour. Even so, we must all take responsibility for our actions. Unfortunately, when it comes to the narcissist, they manage to slide out from under that truism, at times using the empath as a conduit for their display of bad behaviour.

    1. A Victor says:

      Hi LET, I see the part about using our vulnerabilities to cause us to attack others as just more of the same. It shows the narcissist they’re in control, gives them fuel and likely from more than one source, they may garner some character traits from it via reactions/words/actions etc and it may bring them some residual benefits like a free meal at a restaurant for example. It’s still all about them meeting their needs, all side effects are nothing to them. It is easier for an empath to not allow this once they realize what’s happening. I didn’t know what my ex was but there came a point where i stopped working for him, so to speak, when it came to other people. It has dawned on me that he did not care how they were affected or how I looked as a result, so that was it. So then he started smearing me, we can’t win.

      1. lickemtomorrow says:

        AV, it was you who opened my eyes to this aspect of the narcissist using our vulnerabilities against us in one of the Harry and his wife discussions. It is just more of the same, but with a different angle. Rather than attacking us, they use us to attack other people. In the case with your ex, he found a way to ingratiate himself with other people by smearing you. It’s whatever works in terms of fuel requirements. They might be the ‘bad guy’, but if they can paint themselves white by painting you black then that’s what they will do. Definitely a no win situation.

        1. A Victor says:

          They always have to come out the winner, even if only in their own minds. I go back to the three assertios of control, I see more of how this functions all the time. I think it’s actually kind of humorous sometimes that they will walk away from or shut down a conversation and then call that a win. But for them it is. And in a sense I suppose it actually is when it leaves us feeling like the situation is unfinished and we’re frustrated by that.

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV. do you know I’ve had exactly the same thought. About the assertions of control.

            They can’t lose because whatever way they go at things they make it a win for themselves.

            I do get a little chuckle out of that, too.

            Of course, I wasn’t laughing when I didn’t know what was happening. Now I can just shrug and say “I know what you’re playing at” and “The game is up, buddy”.

        2. A Victor says:

          Also, thank you for the credit on that, it makes me happy to hear as it shows in learning something! Haha! Sometimes I feel like it’s an uphill battle, this learning process! But this particular one is so evident to me because of how my ex caused me to treat people on a few occasions. These are emblazoned onto my memory, so out of character these times were, yet I allowed them to happen. I gave up friendship for that asshole, people I really cared about. But I allowed him to become more important to me. A painful lesson.

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, thank you for the further insight and I gave up friendships, too 🙁 I think that’s pretty common. The narc likes to isolate us and in some ways imprison us in their world. Those impervious strings that hold us and that no one else sees or understands. I want to cry sometimes when I realize how I’ve been manipulated and what that did to me, what I lost and how I can never get some of those things back. Still, I won’t cry because I wouldn’t waste another tear on him or a lesson well learned. The closing door of that last relationship opened up a whole new world of understanding for me. I’d rather see the reality than be stuck in the hell of that unreality and permanent sense of dissonance.

            They do become the centre of our Universe and we’d do almost anything for them. Crazy stuff, so that when we escape there’s a sense of coming out of some kind of trance. It’s like waking from a dream – or rather a nightmare!

            Speaking of which, I’ve seem some talk of dreams elsewhere here lately and for the first time in a couple of decades, my ex-husband showed up in my dreams last night. OMG. That was so weird. The dream is very foggy now, so I can’t remember the detail, but I do know I didn’t really feel anything about it after I woke up. He just appeared for some reason, there was nothing worth noting about his presence, and then the dream was over. I understand this is a sphere we can’t influence, but fortunately his appearance had no affect on me. In that respect, I’m going to count on my good fortune again today to have left that all behind.

          2. A Victor says:

            LET, so happy about your experience with your dream! That’s where I hope to get also. Very inspiring, thank you for sharing that!

            Yes, I won’t waste time or years on that which I let go, it was so long ago and I don’t want to go back, I’m building new now, it is better anyway. But yes, sad to know the control I gave him, the unhealthiness of that in me.

          3. lickemtomorrow says:

            Totally out of the blue, AV, but maybe the reason I had the dream was to inspire somebody else, too xox It’s nice to know I got to that place and I hope you do, too. No, don’t go back. You are building a better, brighter, future here and we are not only leaving them behind, but the unhealthy part of our being (or at least getting a handle on that so we can move forward) 🙂

          4. lickemtomorrow says:

            Totally out of the blue again, but Ben Affleck ended up in my dreams last night 😛

            Not a fan, though his most recent offering (Deep Water) was an interesting one. I don’t know why he showed up in my dreams, but we were initially dating and he was keen. LOL. Anyway, then my ‘first love’ showed up on the scene at a separate venue and we reconnected. I was caught in this awful dilemma of having to decide what I should do … fall into the arms of my first love or stick with Ben because he was also ‘seducing’ me. In fact, they were both seducing me … what’s a girl to do?! I told my first love he needed to be serious about us getting together as I had another relationship in play. He knew Ben was on the scene. He promised me. I decided to stay with him (fantasy first love syndrome), but I had to go back to Ben’s to retrieve some of my belongings. That was going to be one of the hardest things I ever did. I knew he wasn’t going to be happy. In between all these shenanigans I was buying a newspaper in store where they also tried to sell me rotten potatoes! There was an article I wanted to read.

            What is going on in my head? Dreams are marvellous concoctions sometimes.

          5. A Victor says:

            Hahaha LET, wow! You have narcs on your mind lately it seems! At least when you’re asleep!! 😂

            Thanks for sharing, that was fun to read!

          6. lickemtomorrow says:

            Haha, AV, is Ben Affleck a narc? I’ll have to check my lists AGAIN 😛

            Pretty sure my first love was one as well 🙁 Story of my life x

          7. A Victor says:

            Wow! I just saw this comment LET! I think something is up with WP again. Yes, check those lists… 😉

          8. lickemtomorrow says:

            WordPress has Gremlins, AV 😉

            I will check them, preparing for more disappointment!

          9. Asp Emp says:

            LET, ah, poor Daniel 😉 Interesting in how the subconscious mind works through dreams.

          10. lickemtomorrow says:

            AspEmp, “poor Daniel” indeed 😛 He’s got to keep the seduction up or I’m not waiting around 😉

            It is fascinating how the subconscious works. I watched this Ben Affleck more recently and got my eldest daughter to watch it with me, too. I loved the intrigue and the questioning that also went with the idea of ‘open relationships’. In this movie he appears more as an empath caught in the trap of a narcissist – much like Will Smith. Can’t say anymore as I don’t want to spoil it, but I’d recommend it for it’s challenging theme.

          11. Leigh says:

            Hi LET, I like to analyze dreams, so I looked on a page I use often to analyze my dreams. Google dream moods. Then once you’re on the page, look up ex, newspaper, potato & rotten. I thought it was too much to post here.

          12. lickemtomorrow says:

            Leigh, I’m going to do that now! Thank you so much for heads up x

          13. lickemtomorrow says:

            Well, the rotten potato seems to be an indication of a ‘hot potato issue. Got that right.
            The rot seems to indicate I’m wasting my potential in either one of these relationships or I’ve failed to make use of the opportunity coming my way – obviously by dumping Ben Affleck 😛

            The newspaper: To see or read a newspaper in your dream signifies that new light and insight is being shed on a waking problem that is nagging on your mind. You are seeking knowledge and answers to a problem.

            The Ex-Boyfriend: To see an old ex-boyfriend from childhood in your dream refers to a freer, less encumbered relationship. The dream serves to bring you back to a time where the responsibilities of adulthood (or marriage) did not interfere with the spontaneity of romance. You need to recapture the excitement, freedom, and vitality of youth that is lacking in your present relationship. If your ex-boyfriend hurts or ignores you, then the dream is telling you to move on with your life and stop thinking about your ex. If you dream that you want your ex-boyfriend back, then the dream may reflect waking feelings of actually wanting him back. Alternatively, it means that you miss being in a relationship and to feel wanted.

            The “Dream Dictionary” probably explained a lot, Leigh!

            Thanks for the heads up and I’m sure I’ll be using it again 🙂

          14. Leigh says:

            LET, I’m done. I’m just done. LOL! I had to laugh when I saw your comments popped up.

          15. lickemtomorrow says:

            Finally, Leigh 😛

          16. Leigh says:

            Hi LET, WordPress is acting up again. I got a notification with your response but when I come to the thread it’s not posted. So weird.

            Anyway, I’m glad you found the page useful. I like to dissect my dreams. Sometimes my dreams have helped me realize something that I hadn’t realized while I was awake. Even if my conscious didn’t know, my subconscious knew. I find it fascinating.

          17. lickemtomorrow says:

            Leigh, that is weird, but I’m glad you saw it so you know I took your suggestion seriously 🙂

            It was kind of lengthy, but I’ll know to check this site again when I have my next fantastical dream – I could only access the dictionary though as the other feature was offline. I’ve always tries to understand my dreams, but worked off my own logic to do that, and dreams can be very illogical!

            Thanks again for the suggestion.

          18. Leigh says:

            Yes, dreams are illogical and don’t make any sense, lol. That’s why I had to try to figure them out and understand them. The truthseeker in me has to know.

          19. lickemtomorrow says:

            Leigh, WordPress is playing tricks! I can see your response here, but not on the site, and I also responded to AV and AspEmp, but maybe they are not accessing the site through WordPress.

            Thanks for your response. The Truthseeker is strong in you!

          20. Leigh says:

            LOL! Sometimes a little too strong. Sometimes it borders on nosy, lol!

          21. lickemtomorrow says:

            Leigh, I’m often curious, but not so bold 😉

            That’s how I would describe it – not “nosy”, but “bold”. It takes a certain type of courage to dig deeper sometimes and get the answers, which surprisingly people are often happy to share. It’s likely they just don’t think we would be that interested or care. They still have the choice not to open up, but curiosity on your part is not remiss as much as society might question the etiquette. We all want answers, sometimes we’re just too afraid to ask.

          22. Leigh says:

            LET, I can be very bold sometimes but I try to ask first if its ok. I’ll say things like:

            “Do you mind sharing?”
            “If I may ask”
            “If I’m being too nosy, you can tell me to mind my business”

            I try not to cross a boundary. Then there are other times I won’t ask at all. If I don’t want to know the answer, I won’t ask. That’s usually when I know the answer already and don’t want to get involved or I’m really just not interested.

            For me, I need things to make sense. If something doesn’t make sense, that’s when I start questioning. I can’t help myself. It gets me in trouble sometimes. Someone said to me once, “Why do you always poke holes in my stories.” I said, “I don’t poke holes in your stories. The holes are already there. I’m just bringing attention to them.” Needless to say, that didn’t go over well.

            I have found that most people that I interact with don’t mind my boldness and the ones that do, stop interacting with me. Some people like the fact that I dissect things because I might have shown them something that they might not have seen otherwise. I can usually tell who minds and who doesn’t mind. If someone minds my boldness, then I reel it in.

          23. lickemtomorrow says:

            Leigh, I appreciate you sharing those further thoughts, and I laughed at the story about “poking holes” 😛 Some people are just more upfront with their curiosity and that’s fine, like you said you prepare the ground in case people don’t want to share (“may I ask”, etc.) and accept some people are going to cut you out because they don’t like being asked and are unable to say so.

            People do fear an encroachment of their privacy at times, and a willingness to share might also include boundaries they themselves decide to put into place, but the asking of questions I don’t think should ever be prohibited. It’s important to get answers, both for our own understanding and the understanding of others.

            I’m probably more protective of other people’s information than I am of my own, as there is a sense permission is sometimes required before sharing, but for myself, and on my own behalf, I won’t share anything I’m not comfortable with sharing. I can be quite forthright if someone is digging too deep and I feel they are not entitled to the information. Often that will be because I sense the need for a ‘juicy tidbit’ or ‘tasty morsel’ for their own or someone else’s purposes (gossip) and not out of genuine curiosity.

            You are obviously taking the other person into consideration, Leigh, and they have the ability to say “no” if they don’t want to share. Some people will think it’s ‘impolite’ to ask, I think you are as entitled to ask as I am to say “not right now” when it comes to further sharing.

          24. A Victor says:

            LET, I agree, sometimes people just want to know we care enough to ask.

          25. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV and Leigh, my response to people asking questions is usually to accept they are curious and well intentioned. I don’t immediately assume they have an ulterior motive, but the one exception to that rule would be when it comes to the narcissist. You learn to read situations, and if I know a narcissist is involved with the questioning and curiosity then it’s a whole different kettle of fish. They will be asking for their own purposes and not out of any true interest or concern for you. The will also use their flying monkeys for this same purpose, hoping they’ll bring back interesting little tidbits for them to hoard.

            The MR female nemesis I encountered during my last entanglement was extremely good at garnering information under the guise of ‘caring’ or being ‘concerned’. She’d send others out to do the gathering for her also. One friend told me the female narc had been in touch after not contacting her for some time. I said “I’ll bet she asked you a question”, as in she was ‘fishing’ for information and that was the reason for contact. The answer: “As a matter of fact, she did.” BINGO! That’s how these underhand MR narcs work, and I called her “the snake” as it was obvious she liked to slither close to the ground, unseen and unheard, as she went about her dirty work.

            Just had to draw a line there with regard to the kind of boldness that can be appreciated (real caring, concern, curiosity) as opposed to the information gathering type, usually a remit of the narcissist and to be used for their own nefarious purposes.

          26. Leigh says:

            LET, I agree 100%. If a narc is doing the questioning, there’s definitely an ulterior motive. Even if they aren’t going to use it to smear you, they may throw it in your face. There have been many times where I wished I didn’t tell the narc something because it came back to bite me in the ass.

          27. lickemtomorrow says:

            Leigh, narcs will use any information we give them to their advantage. An occasion to use that against us may never arise, but since devaluation is on the cards eventually for those most entangled (IPPS) it’s a given at some point in time it could be thrown back in our face, or alternatively used to smear us.

            I’ve had the same wish as you and my ass has been bitten … more often than I care to remember.

          28. A Victor says:

            LET, Good line to point out, it is definitely a real one! We have emotional empathy that puts our asking inside of boundaries and oozing with empathy. MR’s, and even other narcs, might SEEM to ooze with empathy but their motivation is entirely different. Great example of one incident, they’re very predictable!

          29. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, yes, their asking lacks boundaries and, as you say, their motivation is entirely different. The fact they can ooze empathy is the drawcard and reason why many of us get caught in their trap. A decent grasp on cognitive empathy means we can be fooled easily and for long periods of time before the mask begins to slip. The will often be tell tale signs, but we need to know what to look for as well. It’s all so easy to see in hindsight. When we do know what to look for, as in the example I gave, it appears they are very predictable after all.

          30. A Victor says:

            It’s that “determining the motivator” that I’m trying to figure out…I know I can always ask HG, via a NDC, but I also need to know how to tell, to a degree. But in accordance with that there is definitely something to be said for spotting narcy behavior and walking away, no need to “know” a person is an actual narc, if their behavior is bad, I don’t need to be around it.

          31. lickemtomorrow says:

            It’s a fact the narcs with decent cognitive empathy will slip under the wire, at least in my experience. I promise I’m not trying to make excuses for letting them in!

            Every single one of them was a ‘watcher’ – or a lurker – and were reading people well before dipping their toes in the water. Empaths being open gives them plenty to work with also. It doesn’t need to be a serious lovebombing affair from the beginning, just the start of what appears to be a natural friendship with things in common and perhaps a similar sense of humour, likemindedness, etc. There are no obvious signs due to their level of cognitive empathy. At least at the start.

            I could compare that to another female in the same group who came on board later, but was almost immediately triangulated with me in that friendship situation. This was also the beginning of my devaluation. I recognized the move, but did not know how to explain it. The other female was also a narc, likely a sociopath, and I was wary of her from the start. She lacked cognitive empathy and used a sharp and cutting sense of humour to make up for the lack. In many ways it paid off for her, but didn’t convince me. I steered clear of her from the beginning and refused to engage in any close contact with her. The more I observed, the more I was convinced of what she was, but kept it to myself. The ex-narc also liked to use her to triangulate. I have often wondered if they knew what the other was at the time.

            So, two female narcs, both very different in their approach and style, one more obvious to me than the other. I think my takeaway from that will be to be more cautious in sharing information and question the motivation behind it when it comes to meeting new people.

          32. A Victor says:

            LET, absolutely! We must be more cautious with new people, that is so true! And also slow everything down to a pace that we are comfortable with, not allow someone else to set the pace.

          33. Leigh says:

            LET/AV, cognitive empathy, or as I like to call it, fake empathy can sometimes be seen. You just have to really pay attention. Inaction is key. Are they actually doing something or just talking about doing something? When their words and actions don’t match, its a huge red flag. Pay attention to how they react to things. Its often an incorrect or inappropriate response. I’m going to use my daughter as an example. She will often laugh when something bad happens. I’ll say to her, “You can’t laugh at that.” Then she’ll say, “I can’t help it. Its a nervous laugh.”

            LET says, “I think my takeaway from that will be to be more cautious in sharing information and question the motivation behind it when it comes to meeting new people.” I agree 100%. For me, I’m going to be hyper focused on behaviors when meeting new people.

          34. lickemtomorrow says:

            Leigh, you hit the nail on the head again with your words – i.e. “fake empathy” That’s telling it like it is and making it clear – lots of people might not understand the difference between emotional and cognitive empathy.

            It makes it clearer that it’s not the real empathic kind, and only a stand in for what is real. Even more important to take on board is the point you make after that – actions speak louder than words. It’s definitely what helps to unravel things when it comes to the narcissist and matching words with actions is paramount. They can sweet talk all they want, what is the follow up around that? Therein lies both the question and the answer.

            Another good point you make is looking out for inappropriate reactions and you’ve given a good example. If they’re delayed in giving the appropriate reaction, or unable to give it, then it’s likely they’re reaching for a response which doesn’t come naturally to them. Sometimes we can sense how a response is manufactured as it just doesn’t ‘feel’ right, even though the words or sentiments might be.

            It can be hard to get into the minds of other people, so I think your suggestion of focusing on behaviours is a really good one, Leigh. I’m going to take that on board as well.

          35. Leigh says:

            LET, I look at it this way, this is my boundary and this is my expectation. If someone can’t meet that expectation and crosses my boundaries, regardless if they are a narc or not, its a behavior I won’t tolerate anymore. Anyone new who exhibits these behaviors are out.

          36. lickemtomorrow says:

            Leigh, I take your point about boundaries and expectations. It is a telltale sign if someone consistently crosses your boundaries, and CoD’s are likely to allow the salami slicing effect of that in order to please or appease the narcissist. Definitely important to firm those up in order to stay safe. Sometimes it can be hard due to past experience to determine what those boundaries actually are, we have often lost a sense of them with a narcissistic parent. It can take a while to work out what reasonable boundaries are, and if there is ever some flexibility that needs to built in. The main difference would be in determining if we are dealing with a narcissist.

            Normals and empaths can sometimes cross boundaries without any serious intent, just a lack of awareness or understanding. We need to have a level of tolerance for people to make mistakes as well. An empath will often know by someone else’s reaction that this is what has happened, but it’s also up to the other person to make us aware. We can then go about clearing up any misunderstanding. A narcissist with their sense of entitlement won’t care and will be seen not to care. They seek to ‘test’ our boundaries for their own purposes – getting the Prime Aims – so it takes a bit of discernment on our part to know that is what is happening. We are always within our rights to let someone know if they have crossed a boundary with us, and also push back on that. That might help us know if we are dealing with a narcissist or not.

            When it comes to expectations I see that as a different kettle of fish. I often hold high expectations of others – which probably equates to the same expectations I hold myself to for the most part. Sadly, people will not always live up to our expectations, and sometimes I need to take that back to myself in determining if I have set them too high. I might know what I want, but that might not marry up with their understanding or their perception in the circumstances. I end up getting hurt but can’t put all the blame on them. In a sense, we can sometimes set others up for a fall. We need to be clear about what we want and give others a chance to respond to that, knowing that it is our want we desire to see fulfilled, and therefore must accept they may not desire or be able to fulfill that want/need. Once again, some flexibility is required. In the case of the narcissist, they won’t be looking to fulfill our needs or meet our expectations, except maybe during the golden period or during respite. We have plenty of material here to help determine if we are undergoing either of these experiences, giving us an opportunity to GOSO.

            I understand that when we have spent all our time allowing others to breach our boundaries and constantly let us down we need to draw a line in the sand. I think that is where you are coming from … finally taking a stand and not allowing others to walk all over you, or make unreasonable demands. Those things are definitely the hallmark of the narcissist because it’s all about them.

            I agree, whether the other person is a narc or not, we need to be clear about what we will tolerate or accept and walk away from situations that are damaging to us.

          37. Leigh says:

            Hi LET, part of my problem is that I have very black and white thinking. Let’s say I’m due to have surgery. If you are someone close to me, I expect you to say, “Good luck on your surgery.” I don’t expect you to take care of me or give me any kind of support. I can take care of myself. I have very low expectations of people because I’ve been dealing with narcs since birth. However, my black and white thinking says, if you don’t at least wish me well, you’re bad and if you do wish me well, then you’re good.

            With boundaries its the same thing. My boundaries are very low but I still expect people to respect them. For me, if someone can’t recognize an obvious boundary, than they’re bad. For instance, my daughters will come in the bathroom when I’m in there all the time. They’ve been doing it since they can walk. My husband has family members who have done the same thing to me. Thats an obvious boundary. I’ve even said, “What the fuck is wrong with you?” I even got a response once, “You let your daughter come in the bathroom with you.” If they can’t recognize an obvious boundary like that, then there is something seriously wrong.

            My expectations and boundaries are very low so thats why it’s easy for me to say, if you don’t meet them, I’m out.

            I feel the same way if someone is mean to me. If you’re mean to me, I’m done. I will also feel no need to explain myself to that person either. I’ll just be done. Again though, that stems from my thinking that if someone can’t meet my low expectations, then I’m out.

          38. lickemtomorrow says:

            Leigh, I can relate to your black and white thinking and it’s possible I need to be pushed further to get there, but that could also be because I have high expectations in comparison to your low expectations, so maybe there is some ‘wriggle room’ for me. That’s not necessarily a good thing as the narcissist could take advantage of that with their salami slicing ways, which means I won’t see the ultimate boundary when it is crossed.

            You see the ultimate boundary and call it. Fair enough. I’d say that’s as much a part of your nature as your thinking that you set very low boundaries. The line drawn in the sand is it for you, you don’t ask much apart from that. It’s what we all need to do when we reach that boundary breaking moment. In that sense, I think you’ve got it right. People will have determined their own and different boundaries, but it’s knowing that boundary breaking moment when it arrives that’s important.

            I took all kinds of crap from the last narcissist before I reached that moment, but I knew it when I saw it, and said “enough!” At that point, I could also describe my boundaries as being low as he had salami sliced them to that point, and in the end there was nowhere else for things to go. Either I was a doormat or I was going to show an element of self respect and be done with him. I chose the latter.

            I enjoyed reading your comment around how your boundaries operate and what it takes to breach them … the bathroom anecdote had me laughing. If we want privacy anywhere it’s in the bathroom, so that one is a no brainer to me! Personally, I’d fit a lock to the door to make my point, but in reality you shouldn’t need to do that. People should just respect these things, and it goes to show how even when we take a stand sometimes our boundaries are not respected. A definite red flag.

          39. Leigh says:

            LOL! Yes, I’ve learned my lesson and the door gets locked now. I was in my own home and had my husband’s family over. I wish I could say they came in because they didn’t know anyone was in there. Nope. They came in to have a conversation with me.

          40. Asp Emp says:

            LET, good point RE: lock on bathroom door. It is a no-brainer. There may be external family members, or friends visiting and to offer a sense of privacy, security and self-esteem ‘maintenance’ as well as a show of respect. It may be different when there are very young children around, but it can contribute to their own confidence building skills, as well as educating on ‘manners’ when a lock on the door is applied at an appropriate age ie 9 to 11 years old (ie start of teenage years). I’d add, that it also offers ‘space’ away from other people ie no interference, for a short time. I do not need to elaborate further – as you say, it is about respect. 🙂

          41. A Victor says:

            This is where I’m at also Leigh. I’m so tired of being pushed around but this crap I don’t even care if I’m rude anymore… until later… Haha

          42. Leigh says:

            Ugh! I don’t have remorse for things I’ve said and done. If I said it or did it, then I meant it and I’m not sorry about it. I’m sorry for mistakes I’ve made but Im not sorry for something I do with intent. However. sometimes I’ll feel guilty for not feeling guilty.

            Even more so now. We are allowed to stand up for ourselves and we shouldn’t feel guilty for doing so.

          43. A Victor says:

            Yes, I have to learn how to move beyond the guilt, when I haven’t done anything wrong but simply asserted my view or stood up for myself. Even in those instances, the guilt comes over me like a wave and settles. It’s horrible to live with that. And what’s really strange is that I had not realized how much guilt I have until recently. It is so insidious that I think it makes me hide, if I go out, I will feel it, just for being sometimes. So sad, this is such an abuse from my parents, I am happy to be realizing it but hope there is some way to counteract it. I mean, I can tell myself, “No, there’s no reason to feel this way!” But even doing that is taxing at the level that I have to do it at sometimes. It’s kind of ridiculous.

          44. Asp Emp says:


            “cognitive empathy, or as I like to call it, fake empathy can sometimes be seen”

            Maybe I am being a bit thick. Do I understand your words to mean that cognitive empathy is fake empathy?

          45. Leigh says:

            It was my attempt at sarcasm

          46. A Victor says:

            Hi Leigh, I think it’s better than sarcasm, though it is that also. It’s actually true. For the narcissist, empathy is not real, no matter what they look like, what they say, the tone of their voice, their body language or anything else. So for them it is in fact “fake”, just like many other things with them. They know about it, so they can fake it, but it is in no way real empathy.

          47. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hi AspEmp,

            I know Leigh will answer for herself, but your comment made me think about how we are describing cognitive empathy and who we might apply the word ‘fake’ to as well.

            With the narcissist, I would see it a little like “fake it ’til you make it”, as in they have no empathy to draw on and therefore must rely on their cognitive abilities to display any kind of empathy. It’s ‘fake’ in the sense they are only capable of manufacturing empathy and not really feeling it. They do this for the purposes of manipulation and control.

            This is very different to a non-narcissist who may struggle in the area of empathy for other reasons, but at the same time does not try to manufacture it for the purposes of fuel or control. They might develop skills in this area, but are coming from a completely different place and intent.

            All children need to learn social skills and have opportunities to develop their empathy as well. Empaths will often have a built in system which alerts them to the needs of others and this can be encouraged and solidified. The narcissist will have been denied this opportunity, genetically and environmentally, so they have only one option to get what they need and that is to mirror emotional empathy via cognitive means. They can’t and don’t feel it. At the same time we can all use cognitive empathy to put ourselves into another person’s shoes and see things from their perspective. Emotional empathy will add the ‘feeling’ factor to that experience, which I think is what makes an empath.

          48. Leigh says:

            Perfectly stated, LET. Thank you.

          49. lickemtomorrow says:

            Thanks, Leigh.

          50. Asp Emp says:

            LET, thank you for your response. Your first paragraph was spot on. Thank you for the rest of your comment, I really appreciate you taking the time to offer your thoughts about it. You’re a good person, LET 🙂 x

          51. lickemtomorrow says:

            Thanks, AspEmp 🙂

            You added a link in another comment which I checked out and read. I really appreciate you adding that. I can’t remember reading it before, but it makes perfect sense (as does all HG’s work), and explains what we are talking about perfectly.

            Perhaps you saw the word “fake” as a judgement of sorts? I can understand that.

            HG, in his article, describes the “mimicking” behaviour of the narcissist in order to display an element of empathy which they do not feel. Definitely a difference here between ‘thinking’ and ‘feeling’. The Greater Narcissist has the best chance of pulling this off due to their level of intelligence and awareness. Regardless of that, they still don’t feel it, even though every aspect of their behaviour would lead us to believe they do. It’s disconcerting as an empath to think a narcissist can so convincingly pull off a display of empathy that we are fooled by it. It leaves a bitter taste in our mouth and right now I want to spit all narcissists out due to the bad taste they leave. I’m so angry at the impact they are having lately.

            Anyway, that’s a little off topic as is this, but the mention of the Contagion element in that article also got to me. I ‘feel’ Contagion, even if I’m not determined to be Contagion. That element and that element alone makes sense of some of my experiences, including the one related to HG’s father.

            Always enjoy reading your thoughts, AspEmp, and thank you for taking the time to respond and for your kinds words once again <3 They mean a lot to me xox

          52. Asp Emp says:

            LET, thank you RE: you finding the link I provided useful. Yes, partly, I saw it as a ‘judgement’ and also a lack of thought in some respect. Thank you for understanding my perspective (god, you are good 🙂 x).

            ET is a little bugger (you know, that little cute green-coloured thing with a big red heart that can sit on the front of a bicycle and fly across the moon 🙂 ) – I think it is quite apt to suggest that saying to oneself “ET phone home” in the concept of reminding ourselves to get our LT knowledge / wisdom take over and ‘activate’, hence pushing the ET ‘back home’ (reduce and rebalance it, using our LT).

            RE: you reading about the Contagion (in ‘The Three Strands of Empathy’ article), good, I am glad you can make the connection with regard to understand why you experience emotions when it comes to HG’s father.

            Thank you for your thoughts and for listening to me, that is one of your inspiring and endearing traits. Hugs to you for that 🙂 x

          53. A Victor says:

            Hi LET, my daughter, who’s career has been in the field of childcare and child development, mentioned to me a worrisome thing she’d recently come across. The effect of Covid restrictions on children from the ages of 0-4 during the two years of lockdowns. She and her colleagues are quite concerned about these children not having the opportunity to learn to play nicely with others, 2-4 are the formative years for doing so. On a global level, the impact could be horrendous. And add to it the consequences of people being masked and these children not learning to read facial cues normally, it is very concerning.

          54. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, I’d say your daughter’s concerns are shared by many, and the longer term impact won’t be known for some time. I have so many thoughts around this, but in terms of moving forward a focus on awareness around the issues facing children and how they might be overcome would be the next step. What it amounts to at this point in time is ‘damage control’. In that sense, one crisis leads to many other crises which were not foretold, or considered, in the effort to bring the pandemic under control. If I said any more I’d be stepping over a boundary I have set for myself here, so I’ll leave it at that.

          55. Asp Emp says:


            Empathy definitions:

            a) the ability to understand and share the feelings of another (source: Oxford Dictionary).

            b) the ability to share someone else’s feelings or experiences by imagining what it would be like to be in that person’s situation (source: Cambridge Dictionary).

            Both imply Cognitive and Emotional empathy. None of the definitions imply Fake empathy. So, Cognitive empathy is not Fake empathy.

            HG’s ‘The Empathy Cake’ – 1) Instinctive; 2) Safeguarding; 3) Activated; 4) Minimal; 5) No.

            HG’s ‘The Eight Exploitations of Emotional Empathy’ – 1) Trust; 2) Honesty; 3) Decency; 4) Equality; 5) Fidelity; 6) Tenacity; 7) Healing; 8) Loving.


            I suggest you go back to Tudor University and start reading all over again before you start coming out with statements that are not providing “ACCURACY” of HG’s work.

            Your words “It was my attempt at sarcasm”. Maybe it was also a direct insult to HG? In my opinion, he has far more integrity than you do.

          56. Leigh says:

            AV, I think that’s the key. To me its not about whether or not they’re a narcissist. Its about, are we ok with the behavior? If we’re not then its ok if we choose not to be around it. The way I look at it is like this, I have certain expectations and boundaries. If they can’t meet those expectations or they cross my boundaries, the wall goes up & don’t let them in.

          57. Asp Emp says:

            LET, I apologise if there are some comments I have not responded to. I do access through WP. Sometimes I get “notified” through the email notifications. Sometimes no notification. So, I scroll down through the ‘conversations’ screen via WP and there I may find the response. Do forward me the links of any responses from you that may have ‘slipped’ the net xx

          58. lickemtomorrow says:

            AspEmp, all good and I think this is the only thread atm where I thought my original comment to you had not been posted, but somehow was still appearing in WordPress (as Leigh commented to me). All good, no missing replies after me replying to you 🙂

            I’m the same. I wouldn’t like to think I missed something and someone got the wrong impression from that (i.e. didn’t care, couldn’t be bothered, etc.)

            Much like you, I try to keep up with threads where I have contributed so I don’t miss any responses and can do the follow up.

            Thanks for ‘catching’ all my responses so far <3 x

          59. Asp Emp says:

            LET, I found this 🙂 Thank you. I appreciate your words here. Likewise, LET 🙂 xx

          60. A Victor says:

            And I’m not getting notifications except for a few things. Odd.

            It is interesting, the dream dictionary.

          61. Joa says:

            LET, you like to triangulate, right? Hahaha 🙂

            Rotten potatoes were a punishment! 🙂

          62. lickemtomorrow says:

            Haha, Joa, I do look like the one doing the triangulating, and I was caught in a ‘love triangle’ in my dream. Since the decision rested on me, it was a tough place to be. Empath guilt was writ large in that dream, or dread. I didn’t know how I was going to tell Ben I was back with my first love and I did feel like a cheater, or as though I had led him on, even though I had no idea I was going to run into ‘first love’ guy again. I do wonder if we ever get over our first love. I can relate to HG’s story of his first love in that sense, but it is a fantasy.

            I’m pretty sure Ben arranged the rotten potatoes after he found out what was going on 😛 I deserved them. Maybe that was their significance in the dream x

          63. Joa says:

            LET, you are a very good person.

            I would struggle between not hurting anyone, being delicate and making a decision as soon as possible… and the obvious pleasure flowing through my body in waves thanks to this situation and the opportunities it provides.

            Aaaaaa, sex would be amazing 🙂

            I ask for 10 sacks of rotten potatoes and 10 sacks of rotten onions for me!

          64. lickemtomorrow says:

            Joa, I appreciate the compliment, and not sure if I’m ‘good’ because I would feel ‘bad’ in the context you mention it.

            I think your mention of pleasure relates to an element of ‘power’, or having the upper hand in the situation which you are then able to control to your liking. It’s definitely tempting to take advantage and no doubt the sex would be amazing, especially if you are using it as the litmus test to help decide which relationship should endure. There is always excitement at the beginning of a relationship, though, and these things can wane as the mundane takes over, so maybe I wouldn’t rely so much on sex in the long run. The mundane you can rely on, so give me reliable, not unpredictable please.

            I see you have determined your own fate in the circumstances, and 10 sacks of rotten potatoes and 10 sacks of rotten onions are on their way 😉 I would not be so hard on you <3

          65. Joa says:

            First love – I forgot to relate.

            I don’t understand the phenomenon of first love at all. I remember these platonic feelings, I find them cute and funny 🙂 The first touch of hands, yes it was so “sublime”…

            But very small, compared to what was last.

            Only the last love counts.

            I only focus on it.

            Everything, that was before, becomes just a pleasant past.

          66. lickemtomorrow says:

            Joa, first love heightens all our senses to the maximum, at least that’s my experience.

            Nothing could be as great, as good, as certain, as enduring.

            It has a life all of its own, and where once we saw the world in black and white, now we see it in full colourvision.

            It’s not hormonal. It relates to perception.

            My “first love” experience was not until I was out of my teens, so I understand how thinking back to awkward teenage love would not compare. Some of it comes down to an ‘ideal’ and how we fashion those memories.

            A pleasant past is one way, and it does always make me smile.

            I have turned away from focusing on the last love. It was an illusion.

            It also devastated me. It felt like “first love”until I came to understand my mistake.

            It is now part of my unpleasant past.

          67. Violetta says:

            Leigh and licked tomorrow:

            ‘Arry’s Wife gave (or maybe it was a loan) her camel-hair coat to a woman who was accompanying the couple at Invictus Games, to keep her baby warm.

            Why the woman just happened to be carrying a young baby when she was pretty much an official guide is for you to decide: wouldn’t dream of assuming it was a set-up, as a number of people have done.

            I do think it’s a textbook-perfect case of Cognitive Empathy.

            If it any comfort, I never get notifications of any bloody thing, and just check the articles to see what people have added since I last looked at the conversation.

            How do you check WordPress? I’ve been on it only a few times to pick a gravatar, etc., and don’t even remember how I got on.

          68. Leigh says:

            Hi Vi, Harry’s wife doesn’t give a rat’s ass about that baby. It’s done for facade maintenance, control and fuel. Thats why it’s “fake” empathy to me. To the unaware narcissist it’s real to me its fake. Perspective.

            I’m responding on WordPress right now. If you got to the bottom of the blog there is a link to WordPress. I log in and then click the like button and follow the conversations, I want to follow. The threads you are having conversations on, show up first. I should say sometimes they do, not always. There’s a menu bar whee you can also go to the articles you “Liked”. I just find its easier for me that way.

            I also get an email for every comment and post and just delete the comments after I’ve read them.

          69. lickemtomorrow says:

            Violetta, Ulysses S. Grant wasn’t licked in the end at the battle of Shiloh, so I’m hoping not to be “licked tomorrow” either 😉

            Interesting thought on Harry’s wife and some people do think it was a setup for the Netflix propaganda reel 😛 I actually wondered had they bought Lili with them, and had the woman carry her to make it look as though it was someone else’s baby so questions would not be asked or speculation occur. I haven’t seen anyone speculate what I am speculating, but I did see one comment that this was not a ‘new’ baby the woman was cradling. I’m not sure if I was to be part of any ‘official’ party I would bring my baby along in a carrier rather than have someone mind them for the time involved, but not everyone can find a babysitter when they need one. It’s probably designed to look family friendly, and how much more family friendly could you get than thinking of a new mother and her baby while loaning out your expensive coat to ensure their comfort? Fake, fake, fake. I want to shout it from the rooftops! It’s all for the look and we know as a narc she has no empathy. Just what she can make up for the sake of facade management.

            I agree. Textbook perfect case of Cognitive Empathy. It’s done for the look. As I mentioned to AspEmp, it’s designed for manipulation when it comes to the narcissist. Some people will be conned by this display because they don’t know she’s a narc and assume it’s a thoughtful gesture coming from a place of empathy. She’s just not very good at it from the perspective of people who know better. There are holes in everything she does. My worst nightmare is this woman continuing to progress after her displays of cognitive empathy pull the wool over people’s eyes. I do believe the vast majority have seen through her, but that hasn’t stopped her desperate efforts to be the ‘voice of the people’ and ‘women’s advocate’, which makes me sick every time I have to listen to her. She is seriously deluded in that she is only a champion for herself. Me, me, me. Look at me. Aren’t I great? Ugh!

            That sucks that you don’t get notifications, Violetta, and I’m guessing I just switched mine on both on the site and on WordPress, so they will both come through in emails and on WP, but not all of them. In that sense, I’m still scouring threads at times the same as you. In answer to your question, you may need to revisit WP and check the options. There is a little bell on the upper right hand corner that will alert you to any notifications you receive (but not all!). AspEmp also clued me up to a “Conversations” tab contained in the menu on the left hand side which lets you revisit previous conversations and comments, but not all of them appear there either. It’s basically a ‘crapshoot’, but seek and you will find (hopefully) <3

          70. Leigh says:

            “Its basically a crapshoot” That made me chuckle! Yes it is! Every time I think I’ve figured it out the notification issue, I see another comment that I missed.

  4. Dori says:

    Thank you! 😀

  5. Janet says:

    Knowing now that Will Smith is (spoiler removed) and his resignation from the Academy Awards less any additional disciplinary action brings up the issue did he do it to (spoiler removed) So how does Jada view his resignation? Will this lead to her releasing him? Given the fact that California is no-fault divorce and community property laws apply she gets half of everything and so does he. It’s just curious about the dynamic of his resignation and her narcissism

  6. Asp Emp says:

    Poor guy. This series reminds me of the Harry and his wife series. How both men are so under the influence of narcissists, because of their traumas as children.

    I am also reminded of the ‘pan-cakes’ reference 😉

    Absolutely fabulous insights into these people, HG, brilliant work by a brilliant man. Thank you xxx

  7. Pingback: Jada Pinkett Smith : What is Her Hold Over Will Smith? - Dark Triad Personality

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