The Death of Andrew Fletcher

255 thoughts on “The Death of Andrew Fletcher

  1. Rebecca says:

    Viol and HG,

    I went to a Saliva concert at Crocodile Rock in Allentown, Pennsylvania back in 2007 and they had a mosh pit in the crowd. I went nowhere near it, being only 5’1″ and small framed…..yeah, not a good idea for me. I’m thinking broken and knocked out would not be the way to end a night at a concert. I’ll give that a hard pass. I enjoy music,but not to the point of risking serious physical harm. The twerking thing, definitely no. I’d feel and look like an idiot. Pass on that too. I don’t like making a show of myself.

    1. njfilly says:

      Hi Rebecca,

      Throughout the 90’s I dated men who were mostly into heavy metal, and I went to many concerts and venues with mosh pits. I never entered the pit, though, and my boyfriends usually would not allow it. They didn’t want me to be groped or hurt.

      I specifically remember one time in NY, I forget the name of the club. It was surreal and strange. Pot smoke filled the venue, and I was above looking down. The mosh pit moved about the floor like a flock of birds in a strangely chaotic, yet organized fashion. Or maybe it’s because I was stoned.

      Anyway, I remember that night. I went into the ladies room and a man followed me in there, followed by my large boyfriend and his friend. Luckily they saw the man follow me. They ushered him outside and beat the crap out of him.

      You were right not to go into the pit. I never really understood it’s appeal to women.

      Your comment made me recall that night at the club, so just sharing my memory.

      1. Joa says:

        njfilly, I was listening to trash metal and death metal at a time, when I had to stand up to my stepfather, including beating him (when he tore my dress and spat in my face for few minutes late). I had to maintain a high level of aggression and this music gave it to me.

        Pogo was fun then 🙂

        And then, I met N1, which absorbed me completely and only his rhythms and his world mattered. I calmed down very much with him. Only Narc. could bear it and tame it. He quickly pulled me out of my environment and strongly isolated me from my family. It was good for me. Then.

        1. Rebecca says:


          It’s funny that you mentioned your narc pulled you from your family and it was better for you at the time. My narc from last year treated me better than the narc I’m currently dealing with. He treated me better than my ex and better than narc I’m with now, except during the devaluing stage….that sucked, but just wanted to say that I understand what you mean when you say being with your narc was better than being with your family, or in my case current narc.

          1. Joa says:

            Rebecca, for the first 7 years of this relationship I was madly happy with N1 and very much in love with him.

            His empathetic family became my family. His mother was my second mother, his grandmother was my grandmother, and his brothers were my brothers. Their home has become my home. To this day, I have contact with them, especially with his mother. I “drank” warm this family, as if I was thirsty in the desert.

            N1 was younger than me (age wise), but in a way he became my partner, brother and father. It was safe there.

            He pulled me out of the environment in which I was sliding downhill.

            We learned everything together and grew up together. But when I wanted to move away a little, he wouldn’t let me. He forced me, forced me and pressed me. I started to choke and everything started to fall apart.

            I had to go further alone.

            I owe a lot to the N1 and his family. I NEVER forget the GOOD I received from someone.

            That’s why I am, when N1 needs me, even when he deliberately wants to hurt me, because he knows we’ll never be together again. I am giving back the support I once received.

            I am not worried about him, he has a lot of people around him who love him. And also thousands of admirers and followers and many women fascinated by him 🙂 He will always manage 🙂

            He was an important person in my life, despite what happened next. It doesn’t matter.

            Yes, it was a BEAUTIFUL relationship and I am writing this with a smile 🙂


            Don’t be afraid, I will never forget you. I remember everything. Every wonderful color of this love.

        2. njfilly says:

          Whoa! That is incredible what you had to endure with your stepfather. I’m so sorry about that. I agree about the level of aggression in metal music, and that is part of the reason that it appealed to me as well. The anger within it resonates. One can identify with the music. What is pogo?

          I believe things happen for a reason so maybe you were meant to be with N1 so he could tame you, as you state. I understand how it could be good for you at that time. I needed a man like that at times in my life as well. I completely understand. A man who was afraid of me, or too timid, or not able to say no would not have been good for me either.

          1. Joa says:

            Sonjfilly, pogo is the “cauldron” under the stage, dance combined with battle, ha ha, you call it “mosh pits”? I liked it, until about 20 people crushed me. I almost got strangled with male butt before they got up 🙂

            My stepfather was been a wonderful dad for about 6 years. Raw but intelligent, stimulating and curious. Near and far at the same time. My sister and I were still laughing. But he also had a second face…

            We couldn’t always be his children. Much bad happened as we wanted to go our own path.

            But the worst part was – the human I loved did it.


            I hated my mom’s men in front of you. They were only interested in one thing. We were redundant.

            When you showed up, my sister immediately grabbed your hand like a thirsty puppy. I was more distrustful. You had to get to me. You opened me first. And finally I took your hand too.

            Sometimes I think about you. I remember all our adventures, mountain trips and sea wave jumping, tennis by the lake, swimming and diving, snow sleds and sleigh rides. I remember, when you were working and I was pretending to be doing the same next door. You helped me in my “projects” 🙂 You impressed me. I remember all your books. I remember walking together, cooking together. I remember laughing together. There was so much of it, right? You always held our hands. I was happy. Do you remember the action “black pompom”? 🙂 Thank you, you protected me.

            We will never meet again. Too much bad was. I remember lying, I remember hissing, I remember terror, I remember pinching, I remember your teeth in my skin, I remember your saliva on my face, I remember jerking. I remember when you strangled her, I remember when you hit them. I remember that fear. There was so much of it, right?

            You are still alive. I don’t hate you anymore, although sometimes I still feel disgust.

            “We forgive you” – my sister wrote in a letter after 20 years of silence. She didn’t ask me, if she could write to you on my behalf, but yes, it’s true. We forgave a long time ago.

            You were our dad.

      2. Rebecca says:

        Thanks for sharing. I’ve been to a few concerts, saw the mosh pits and they didn’t appeal to me either. I would have been thrown around like a ball and I wouldn’t be going weeeeee…..I went to concerts between 2000–2017 and I would go with a group of friends, safer that way, or at least i felt safer….I haven’t been to one recently mainly because of the covid mess.

        1. njfilly says:

          Hi Rebecca;

          I just want to say that when I made my comment to you I had no idea what you are going through presently.

          I have now read some comments on the blog that you and others have made relative to your situation, and I wish you luck in whatever you try to do. I hope you get the help that you need. What you are going through sounds very difficult. I hope it all works out for you.

          The mosh pits never appealed to me either as far as joining in, but I did enjoy watching them.

          1. Rebecca says:


            Thanks I appreciate the well wishes. ❤

            I would watch the mosh pits too, but didn’t even dream of joining. I would watch my guy friends go in and get beat up and sometimes come out with a bloody nose. I thought they were a bit loopy for going in, in the first place. 😆 It’s like the people who go in the ocean and look for sharks to swim with. Nope, I see a shark and I’ll be hitting panic city, crying and trying my best to swim faster before I become fish food. I leave the mosh pits and the swimming with sharks with the people who don’t have an active imagination like me. I’m imagining getting tossed around like a soccer ball in the mosh pits and getting eaten by a shark that ask, do you have any Grey Pupon?

          2. njfilly says:

            Ha ha! Funny, Rebecca! Nice to see you have a sense of humor even during this difficult time for yourself.

            I was always amazed anybody would enter the mosh pit since there were always pools of blood on the dance floor at the end of the night. (ok, just kidding!)

          3. WhoCares says:


            I am with you on leaving mosh pits and swimming with sharks to other people.

            Have you ever seen the documentary about Valerie Taylor: “Playing With Sharks”?

            I watched it with my son and he was like “I wanna do that!!”

            And I was like, “Let’s talk…”

          4. Bubbles says:

            Dearest WhoCares,
            Valerie Taylor is a highly respected icon here in Australia, so is Rodney Fox!
            We have shark cage diving here for fun n recreation 🦈 🤣
            I grew up by the beach and it was common to hear shark sirens going off and observe sightings every weekend.
            Didn’t stop us venturing back into the sea, we learnt to swing straight out of the womb haha
            Mosh pits sound way more dangerous 🤣😂
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          5. WhoCares says:


            Haha! mosh pits.

            “I grew up by the beach and it was common to hear shark sirens going off and observe sightings every weekend.
            Didn’t stop us venturing back into the sea, we learnt to swing straight out of the womb”

            Wow! I guess it’s whatever we are used to, yes.

            I think my son would enjoy a shark cage diving experience in Australia!
            (I might, even.) Well…let me think on that a bit more.

            I envy you, Bubbles, growing up on the ocean! I am quite landlocked here where I am (although it’s pretty in it’s own way.)

          6. Bubbles says:

            Dearest WhoCares,
            Oops sorry slips ….I meant swim ……not swing 😱………🤣😂🤣
            Luv Bubbles 😘

          7. Bubbles says:

            Dearest WhoCares,
            I could not imagine being landlocked lovely one …..the experience of running on scorching hot sand (ouch ouch ouch ouch) to dive into the sea for a swim is our norm 🤣😂
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

    2. Viol. says:


      I got the crap beat out of me at Offspring ’95, after showing up in what I thought was acceptable grunge-wear (plaid flannel baby-doll mini and matching over-the-knee socks–it’s OK, you can laugh), but at future concerts, I was ready: contacts instead of glasses that could be mashed up one side of my head, sturdy boots so I wouldn’t care who stepped on them, loose pair of jeans and over-sized concert-T so I could maneuver.

      Years later, I got a pair of discontinued but unused Doc Martin’s for 6 bucks and change at a discount event they held on campus at the student union. I wore them and the black leather jacket I found at a thrift shop tonsee Richie Ramone, and felt a had kept an unvoiced promise to my younger, financially struggling self.

      I’ve always been saddened by the fact it’s so expensive to be counter-culture.

      1. WhoCares says:

        “I’ve always been saddened by the fact it’s so expensive to be counter-culture.”

        Haha, Viol.!!

        (It’s true though… whatever’s hip becomes expensive too…think torn jeans.)

        1. Rebecca says:


          I haven’t seen the Valerie Taylor documentary, Playing with sharks. To me that’s like juggling with powered on chainsaw….I like my limbs attached to me, thank you very much. 😆 Yeah, I would have a long talk with your son,maybe show him some clips of sharks and all those teeth, or take him to an aquarium with sharks. They’re awesome creatures, but even nicer behind glass. I hardly go in the ocean for fear of sharks. Silly, right? I seriously go in the ocean and my mind is visualizing a shark seeing me and going, yummy guppy meat, my favorite. Yeah, noooo, when the water is warm, my ass is out of the water. 😆 I have some people who would tell me, you’re hardly a morsel. Yeah, well, I’d run into the shark that likes the fun size candy bar.

          1. WhoCares says:


            “Guppy meat” – Pahaha! Indeed.

            Thanks for the suggestions.
            Actually, my son was quite serious at the time. And he is very knowledgeable about various species of sharks and all the statistics on the deaths of sharks at the hands of human beings etc. He has been to Ripley’s Aquarium twice in Toronto, and touched sharks there. Seen the big sharks (the awesome Hammerheads too) swim above in the tunnel there.

            He truly feels that sharks are just misunderstood. He asked me about how he help protect sharks, so we had discussions about marine biology, etc…

            I actually fear that I may have a little Saviour empath on my hands…oh, dear.

          2. WhoCares says:

            Oh, and the Valerie Taylor doc is really good. She and her partner were involved in helping create the amazing scenes in the original Jaws movie…then when shark hunting went into overdrive, around the world, as a consequence of the movie’s popularity she was then moved to advocate of behalf of sharks and educate people. It’s a pretty good story.

          3. Viol. says:

            Always make sure there is someone farther out in the water than you are, Rebecca, preferably several people, so the shark sees them first. Like low-functioning narcs, sharks live in the moment for Fuel, and they’re probably not going to expend energy going past a source right in front of them for your sake.

          4. WhoCares says:

            Hahaha – Viol.!!

          5. Asp Emp says:

            Rebecca, it was good to read your descriptions here. I am amused 🙂

          6. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Nope. No no no no! You guys stop this, I’ve spent the whole weekend surfing with my brother. I do not want to hear anything about sharks!!!!! Thank goodness we are not in Australia but some cases have been happening here due to the increasingly warmer temperature of the oceans, so I can’t get it out of my mind…

          7. WhoCares says:

            Sorry for all the ‘shark talk’ SP!!
            Happy surfing.

        2. Rebecca says:


          I’m like your son, I have a strong urge to save animals, even sharks. Savior is one of the three hybrids I am, I have all three strong in me, Savior, Carrier and Geyser. Nothing gets me madder than to see someone abusing an animal or a child, person in general, let’s be honest here…I don’t like anyone getting hurt. When friends have issues, they come to me for help, but yet I have difficulty with my own problems….anyway, I help automatically, no thought , just do and it seems animals sense this about me. I’ve seen dogs, I don’t know, come up to me and wanna play and be petted. I of course use the baby voice and give them lots of attention and rubs. 😆

          1. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Savior, magnet, carrier here. I’m actually a magnet for animals (narcs included) but I’m not saving a shark! No no no. Well, maybe if it is a baby shark nanah nananah…

          2. WhoCares says:

            “baby shark nanah nananah…”


          3. WhoCares says:


            “I have all three strong in me, Savior, Carrier and Geyser. Nothing gets me madder than to see someone abusing an animal or a child, person in general, let’s be honest here…I don’t like anyone getting hurt.”

            Thanks for sharing how your empathic traits manifest. I am sure you are a good friend to have on someone’s side!
            It gets one into trouble though, sometimes, doesn’t it?
            I can see similar behaviours in my son – he comes to the aid of friends being mistreated or bullied, he will also ‘mediate’ disputes or disagreements. He tries to cheer up friends when they are down, etc. (And he doesn’t make a big show of it, just comes naturally to him.) Oh, wow…he is going to get himself into so much trouble…

            Hurry up and write that book, on narcissism, for young people HG!!

            …Sort of.

            That’s sweet Rebecca – dogs seeking out your help AND a belly rub! 🙂

      2. Rebecca says:


        I had a few pair of Doc Martens and I got one pair when I went to England around my birthday. When I was going home, I had birthday presents and nothing to claim…..Well, it was my birthday week….
        I remember the grunge era, Nirvana, Offspring, NIN, Danzig, and countless others. I like a wide range of music and I liked grunge too. I wore flannel shirts, blue jeans and Doc Martens and listened to the music, that was the extent of my grunge. I didn’t do the drugs, smoke, drug, have sex etc….not because I thought I was better than anyone, but because I don’t like the taste of alcohol, cigarettes smelled bad, pot smells bad, and I had unresolved trauma related to sex, so I wasn’t doing that either. Now, anyone looking on the outside would think, what a goodie two shoes…..yeah, nooooo, the darkness of why I didn’t do things was beyond what my younger self should have been dealing with..,
        but life is sometimes like that. It’s funny that I didn’t do all the things my friends did,but they accepted me and I accepted them. A lot of them were Military kids like me, so a lot of them were going through similar things I was. People talk about the bright side of Military life,but they don’t talk about the abuse behind closed doors. I had a friend, who was in and out of rehab. She was in 9th grade and dealing with sexual abuse at home. Another friend went to a mental hospital and they moved away, don’t know what happened to him. When I see the extent of their abuse, mine was bearable compared to their pain. I felt bad for them and the non abusive parent was there for them and trying to help. I saw how the family was destroyed from the abuse and it ripped me apart because I was powerless to help, all I could do is be supportive. I wish I could have taken their pain away.. all I could do is try to lessen it. Sorry about the trip down dark lane.

        1. Viol. says:


          No, I understand. I was more sexually active and did more drugs in Jr. high than during the grunge era, by which time I was chronologically an adult. Gymnastics may have destroyed my hip joints, but it taught me to use my body for something other than a cesspool for drugs or the numb recipient of male aggression or male lust.

          It prepared for me for theater, because I found that when I practiced, I sucked less. This had never happened before: in school, there were things I could do easily (humanities) and things I couldn’t do no matter how I tried (STEM), and being told by teachers, “You’re not even trying” made me give up altogether.

          What I liked about grunge and punk was the embracing of outcast status. It’s why it took me so long to give up on Wanna-be Playuh-Narc. He listened to Nirvana, so he had to be a tortured poet in a world of detestable Normies, right? Didn’t dawn on me that maybe he wasn’t really one of the Normies, but he sure wanted to be.

          1. Rebecca says:

            I couldn’t do theater plays. I felt stupid pretending to be someone else. I would feel overwhelmed with embarrassment and couldn’t feel my lines or block out the crowd. My thing was choir and singing, that I enjoyed and still enjoy doing,but don’t ask for me to sing solo, I sing in groups for other people. I only sing solo in front of people I feel safe with aka not easily embarrassed around them….trusted friends. I went to the Les Mis show in England, I knew all the songs from choir, it was fun singing along with the play. I know the songs to Phantom of the Opera and Cats. I like a large range of music. I would have to say music is my heart, it’s what keeps me living, at least a main thing that keeps me living. I come alive with music, it’s like air and water to me. It calls to me and I gladly absorb it’s many flavors and degrees of light and dark.

      3. Rebecca says:

        Making sure someone is out farther than me, is like saying, make sure you crack em in the kneecap so you can out run them 😆 It’s what I thought anyway 😆 I don’t go out far in the ocean, the waves are too strong and I’m not a strong swimmer, as my dad would call it. Basically saying, if I was on a bike, I’d still have the training wheels attached….maybe not THAT bad,but close enough.

  2. Lucycita says:

    “I will dance if it serves a purpose”
    “Only if it is the Scissor Sisters”

    Come then and dance with me on the dance floor, there’s nothing I love more. I used to attend modern dance classes as a hobby and I hope to return there one day. So when shall we dance HG?

  3. Viol. says:

    If you’ve already discussed this somewhere, please refer me to the proper article/video, but how did you get into DM? What was the first song you remember hearing, and what was your reaction? If you used the band to get fuel from classmates or girls you fancied, can you give a few examples?

    Teens often get into Emo Screamo (or, previously, grunge) to embrace (and therefore nullify) their feelings that Everything Sucks. Some prefer upbeat music to perk them up when they are moody; boy bands often have a contingent of tween girls pretending they are the girl in the song, and Nick/Justin/Harry is singing to/about them. Teen guys might listen to rap or Hair Metal, imagining that they’re Uncle Luke or Axel, idol of an arena of screaming fans and banging the bimbo in the video. Even in grad school, I cranked up the Ramones and bounced around my living room, thinking something along the lines of, “Fuck you, Normies!” at my 2nd dissertation reader and a grad student I referred to as “Evil Bitch-Monster From Hell.” (I’m now pretty sure they were mid-rangers, not normal at all, but that’s been my classic misunderstanding from childhood: not recognizing what these self-righteous types often are.)

    Apparently, you experience none of these things. How do you hear music?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      An uncle of my friend was into them, he recommended it to his nephew and to me.

      I hear music through my ears and my brain interpretation those sounds.

      Their music is useful for triangulation to convey a dark vision of attachment.

      1. Viol. says:

        But you don’t hear it viscerally or in your limbs? You never heard a song and wanted to do a skate routine to Faith No More or thought, “That old Beatles song of the White Album would make a great Floor Ex routine”? Or even, “This would be a great song when you’re in the pit shoving people!”

        Is the “dark vision of attachment” to the band’s music or is your target meant to think it is to her? Or both–is she meant to think, “I wish he were that obsessed with me“?

      2. Sweetest Perfection says:

        “Triangulation to convey a dark vision of attachment.” Could you elaborate on that?

        1. A Victor says:

          Hi SP, I’m taking a guess, for fun since I have no idea. The dark vision part is a romanticization that empaths often embrace, the vision is a bit of future faking (this, passionate/emotional etc, is how it will be with me, the narcissist}, and the attachment is the glue this forms with (or because of or from?) the addiction and also serves as ever presence. I hope HG answers your question, especially if I am way off base.

        2. Rebecca says:


          I’m afraid of sharks too, I won’t even go in the ocean when the water is warm,forget it. The Delaware River sometimes gets whales in it and they go back out to the ocean,but I figure whales can get in, sharks can too….no swimming there either 😆 Besides the river stinks anyway….wouldn’t swim in that for the stink. Sensitive nose and active imagination keeps me out of most wild waters….it’s the pool or the shower, or the ocean on cold water days.

      3. A Victor says:

        Does “I hear music through my ears and my brain interpretation those sounds.” mean your brain interprets it to be some adjective or your brain interprets it to be useful? Given the next line, I am guessing useful, so you don’t actually “enjoy” the music for yourself, it’s just another tool?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          It is a tool to achieve the prime aims.

          1. A Victor says:

            Thank you for the answer HG. I don’t know why but this one makes me particularly sad.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Such an empath.

          3. A Victor says:

            Haha, thank you, I take that as a compliment.

          4. Viol. says:

            Can you at least enjoy the structure intellectually?

            Pixies’ “Dead” has always made me want to turn my apartment into a one-eomsn mosh pit, but a friend picked up on the fact that the major-key riff from the first part is repeated in minor key in the second part, and the drum goes into double-time right before this (same emotional effect for me as a similar passage in “Enter Sandman”). He described it as “organized chaos.”

            Armed with his comments, I was able to appreciate how “Personal Jesus”–which I had previously liked just for the swagger–used the syncopated breath bridge and the sudden loss of the echo effect on the last line to build to, and abruptly cut off, the song’s climax, just as “Dead” ends with an interrupted riff. Both songs are as tightly plotted as anything Bach composed.

            What I found interesting about Manson’s cover of DM was he didn’t copy these features in his arrangement. He was smart enough to realize he ain’t Dave and he ain’t Martin.

          5. Witch says:

            So HG when you listen to certain types of music.. you don’t feel like dancing, nothing?

          6. HG Tudor says:

            Only if it is the Scissor Sisters.

          7. A Victor says:


          8. Witch says:

            I looked up scissors sisters and saw the track “I don’t feel like dancing”

            Haha very funny 🥲

            You don’t feel like laughing you don’t feel like dancing
            I cannot believe this!!!!

          9. Rebecca says:

            Music doesn’t move you at all? Is that all narcissist, or just you? Wow, I can’t imagine that. I enjoy music in every sense of the word, hearing it brings forth feelings for me, I see colors and I feel moods from the notes and lyrics, it’s like a whole banquet of everything all at once…it can make my day better or my mood worse. There are songs I avoid because they remind me of a negative memory or person, or just listening to it makes me depressed, like Dust in the Wind…nope, won’t listen to it, makes me feel like shit. It’s beautiful, but the emotional baggage with it, it’s not worth listening to just to feel low. I just can’t imagine not feeling music, it’s so important to me. I’m sorry HG, that really makes me sad for you. 💔 Music is feeling, half the enjoyment is how it makes one feel while listening to it, I can’t imagine not feeling music. If you could experience music the way I can with the colors, smells, memories and imagined visuals I see, you’d enjoy it more. I’m sorry that was taken from you, or never allowed to come into existence. 😢💔

          10. njfilly says:


            So you hear music and you don’t want to dance, you don’t laugh, you don’t twerk. What good are you at a party?

          11. HG Tudor says:

            I will dance if it serves a purpose.
            I do not twerk because I am not 11 years old.
            I do laugh if it serves a purpose.
            I get invited to and attend many parties because I am a great guest to have attend. I will wager I attend more than you.

          12. Viol. says:


            Have you ever done the mosh pit? You’d like shoving people with impunity (king of the hill, just like that childhood triumph), but you wouldn’t be able to control all the people shoving back.

          13. HG Tudor says:


            Too many unhygienic individuals. I would be too busy making them drink bleach to listen to the band.

            I have used certain tracks on dance floors to land a well-aimed elbow into somebody’s face and pass it off as part of the exuberance caused by the particular track.

          14. WhoCares says:


          15. WhoCares says:


            Re: mosh pit.
            Have you done this? I assume so, by your comment.

            I never really knew what a mosh pit was until I was an adult. I was dating a photographer, who was covering bands in the Montreal area and he was contracted to shoot a Goth/Death metal band.

            Since I was with him, I got to view the show from high up in one of the balconies of the “club” (it was actually a old style movie theater that was repurposed as a night club).

            I was watching when suddenly, right below me in the crowd, a number of onlookers started frantically jumping around and into each other…I was like, “What the..?”
            And then, “Ohhhh, THIS a mosh pit.”
            Only, I had a bird’s eye view (thankfully) of it, and not a ‘hands on’ experience.

            I think, for the most part, I had a fairly sheltered childhood and adolescence…

          16. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Scissor Sisters’ debut album was great for putting my son to sleep as a baby. I used to do the night feed and dance with him to burp him haha. One song, burped and back to sleep. Happy times.

          17. njfilly says:

            I was joking. I thought you would pick up on that since I mentioned you twerking, and I made a big stink about that on another thread. I understand though, you read many comments and emails and don’t remember them all.

            I rarely attend parties any more. In the past I was always at a party. I think about the parties I attended, and how different they must be from the ones you attend. I’m sure they are worlds apart.

            What makes you a great party guest? I assume your charm and conversation skills? Are you a good dancer? I think you might be awkward since you don’t feel the music the same way an empath does, but I could be wrong. I can’t imagine dancing without “feeling” the music but only hearing it. I assume you have a sense of rhythm since you play the piano.

          18. HG Tudor says:

            Oh I did remember, I wanted to put you in your place a second time.

          19. njfilly says:

            Ha ha!

            I LOVE it when you do that!

            What about the answers to my questions?

          20. HG Tudor says:

            I would answer them but I just had to shake my thang to this infectious beat.

          21. WhoCares says:


          22. njfilly says:

            Ha ha!

            Oh you….

          23. Asp Emp says:

            njfilly, RE: “feeling” the music – it can be felt via vibrations when the music is loud enough. Some hearing people could never understand how some Deaf people can dance to music but cannot hear it….I do know what you are referring to though 🙂

          24. njfilly says:

            Yes, interesting.

            Do you emotionally “feel” the music when you hear it through vibrations?

          25. Joa says:

            Hahaha! I liked pogo and beat hair-shuffling as a teenager – until the male ass clothed in red tight pants with a black studded belt (I remember to this day!) sat down on my face, and 20 other people on male ass and me 😀

            Yes, I liked to poke my elbows in human torpedoes approaching too fast 🙂

            Young people like to “churn” and unload energy / aggression 😀

            Really unsanitary, yuck. Now you won’t even touch me with a stick, ha ha ha 🙂 When I was dancing a year ago and a man approached, I turned my back on him and I danced to another part of the room. He did not give up. I wished I had a fly trap. He disturbed my space 🙂

          26. Viol. says:

            Asp Emp:

            There are scenes showing how deaf people can enjoy music in Children of a Lesser God.

            Marilyn Manson described an encounter with a deaf fan who liked the vibrations. Unfortunately, the way he decided to reward her enthusiasm for his music is kind of stomach-churning.

            I hope there’s no pattern involved in the fact that both Manson and actor William Hurt from the movie version of Lesser God turned out to be jackholes.

          27. Asp Emp says:

            Viol, I have seen ‘Children of a Lesser God’ film. It is a good film for that time, because there were not many films that Deaf people could relate to, including the difficulty in communicating with hearing people that do not understand. It’s about perspectives.

            I can assure you that the film does not necessarily indicate that all Deaf people dance like that. Deaf people can dance just as well, maybe better, than some hearing people – including those that cannot hear the music. I will share that I can hear it and feel it.

          28. Witch says:

            “Too many unhygienic individuals. I would be too busy making them drink bleach to listen to the band.”

            They don’t bathe for real

          29. Viol. says:


            I haven’t done it recently. I last crowd-surfed at the Ramones’ Farewell Tour, and since I can’t top that experience (and have probably aged and gained weight to the point that I won’t get random guys coming up ro me asking if I want to “go up” anymore), I think that’s it for crowd-surfing. As for moshing, I have done it any time I could see a surviving Ramone, but that aren’t that many of them left. All the original ones are dead. I’m not sure there is any other group worthy of risking having my bursitis flare up (gymnastics and moshpits are hell on joints).

            I did inadvertently start a mosh pit at the Kalamazoo medieval conference dance by requesting a Ramones song from the DJ less than 3 weeks after Joey died. I guess lot of middle-aged academics were feeling sentimental.

            I tried to duplicate the experience at the International Medieval Congress in Leeds, but the DJ said he didn’t have any punk. (What, no Sex Pistols? In Jolly Olde England?) Would New Wave do? He put on “Baggy Trousers, ” which I’d never heard (Madness’ biggest, possibly only, US hit was “Our House”), and immediately a bunch of middle-aged British academics star pogoing around like mad fleas. I got a CD with the song on it as soon as I could.

            I suspect a lot of the audience–and many of the musicians–were tortured by the same progressive educators who tried to turn every possible class activity into Group Work, supposedly because it taught cooperation, which could be applied to the outside world. The fact that the kids who did well in this sort of thing had actually learned cooperation playing sports or Barbie’s fashion show and were applying it to some busywork activity designed to stretch 2 hours of book material into 2 weeks of “projects” appears to have escaped the educators. Those of us who already had difficulty making friends did far worse in their classes, to which they would respond, “Well, everybody else has learned to get along with people.” (No, dear: HAD learned; Heather and Ivy were friends in 2nd grade when I got here, and Ash and Oliver have lived on the same block since kindergarten. BTW, I knew Daisy from ballet class before she switched to this school, and she only pretends to be shy.)

            Joey Ramone got beat up regularly in high school. Kurt Cobain got beat up in elementary school and was on hyper meds. I knew the rest of story when I learned that. I suspect a lot of the joy of moshing was the relief of being able to lash out in all directions without having some prissy mid-ranger sniping, “Why can’t you get alawwnnng with people? You need to learn to cooperate!” Well, here we were, cooperating. As a friend of mine noted, we knocked each other down, picked each other back up, dusted each other off, then knocked each other back down again. And the Normies were the outsiders in this world.

          30. WhoCares says:


            Oh my – thanks for sharing your mosh pit stories!
            Too funny.
            (I feel like this made up for my lack of experience in this area – perhaps I didn’t miss all that much after all! )

            Sorry the bursitis has cut into your mosh pit adventures though. ❤️ I hear the nostalgia in your words.

            The medieval mosh pit conference story made me laugh out loud

          31. Witch says:


            I believe if the facade permits this would be HG after one glass of fruit punch don’t worry


          32. HG Tudor says:

            Damn, outed.

            Oh well, it’s been an experience educating you all.

            HG over and out.

          33. A Victor says:

            Well, at least you’re good at it.

          34. Truthseeker6157 says:

            “ It’s been an experience educating you all.”

            Experience?! Pffft

          35. Viol. says:


            And all the gjrlies say he’s pretty fly
            For a White Guy!

        2. Another Cat says:

          I remember the first time I heard Scissor Sisters (I Don’t Feel Like Dancing) I was so happy,
          thought Elton John had a new song out.

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hello Another Cat 🙂

            Yes, one of those albums that stood out from the crowd. Some might not have loved the style but it stood out. I associate that album with a really happy and optimistic time in my life. One of the times I would rewind to if given the opportunity. Music is so powerful in that sense.


          2. Another Cat says:

            … and the first time of Jamiroquai, was that Virtual Insanity, I was in awe of ‘this new Stevie Wonder tune’.

            I read that it’s an empath thing, being very touched by art & music, even the heavy sounding songs. Well, in my country they call it Highly Sensitive Personality, but since it’s supposed to be “more than 20 % of the population”, I guess it means ’empaths’.

          3. Viol. says:

            Another Cat:

            I hunted down the song because this discussion made me curious. Elton co-wrote it and played piano on it. You have a good ear!

            It must have given him a bit of a pang knowing he couldn’t hit those high notes anymore even if someone jammed a pin into his scrote. He once said in an interview he could kick his younger self for putting so many falsetto notes into his songs.

          4. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Another Cat,

            King For A Day by Jamiroquai is one of my favourites. Loved the video to that too. Definitely, that 20% is definitely the empath group 🙂

          5. Another Cat says:

            So it WAS Elton John? There we go. Some of his songs from before I was born, Bad Side Of The Moon and Rock n Roll Madonna, sound so similar to I Don’t Feel Like Dancing.

            I hate to admit I haven’t joined any moshpit, half a stage-dive at Danko Jones count?

          6. WhoCares says:

            Another Cat,

            “half a stage-dive at Danko Jones count?”


          7. WhoCares says:

            Another Cat,

            The thing ‘to do’, when I was a teenager, was go roller skating at the local club…to classic rock etc…. sometimes there would be live rock bands.

            The worst trouble you could get into would be to wear a white bra under your clothes. Black lights!! What a faux pas. Haha.

            That didn’t stop some people.

          8. Another Cat says:

            Oh, you’re right WhoCares, I think i went through that on a trip to Hastings, rollerskating disco for junior high. So much fun! Haha, I never got to experience it again, ok, so the bras are to be observed. My Midrange Type B narc mom was always about white underwear. These days i buy black by default. And why aren’t sanitary pads black, is my next question.
            Live rock bands to skating? Wow!

      4. Contagious says:

        I watched Romanovsky play Beethoven concerto 5 last weekend… superb … and St Clair the conductor said Beethoven was deaf for this concerto but he could hear the music through vibrations. Your response seems to indicate a different way of hearing music too. Is this so? You don’t approach it emotionally so how do you hear it? Technically? There is no doubt you enjoy it. How so HG? Curious… 🙂

    2. njfilly says:

      Hey, you. I was the “bimbo in the video” (figuratively speaking).

      I have had sex with many musicians. I seemed to gravitate toward drummers and bass players.

      Yes. The good ole’ days.

      1. viol. says:


        I quite understand. A number of musicians have been retroactively accused of having sex with underage groupies at a time when the culture was such that nobody but their parents would have given a toss (and sometimes not even them). I’ve sometimes thought, “well, if I’d met so-and-so when I was underage, he’d still have the friction burns.”

        1. njfilly says:

          I need to take back what I said.

          I was never a bimbo by definition. I had a lot of sex, but I was not stupid or air headed, other than the stupidity of having sex with random men. I was self supporting and financially stable.

  4. njfilly says:

    I listened to this video and my first thought was confusion as to why people would express their condolences to HG Tudor about the death of Andrew Fletcher? There is no connection there, other than he was a fan of their music. I find this very odd.

    I was never a Depeche Mode fan, but even if an artist dies whose work I enjoyed and appreciated, I don’t mourn their loss, nor do I expect condolences, and I would find it very strange if I received any. I just accept it and move on. I feel a similar way to people/relatives in my life who have died. There are those whom I did mourn their loss initially, due to the shock of them dying, and also I felt loss as I was not ready to lose them from my life. Then, I move on and I don’t continuously mourn them. Other people in my life have died and I felt literally nothing. Maybe this is due to the lack of connection with them, or lack of impact they had on my life. I’m not really sure. I think I feel loss only toward people whom I loved. Even then, I don’t continuously mourn. I think it is unhealthy.

    I divorced my husband at the age of 25, and when he died at the age of 41 I sobbed at his wake. Not because I loved him, or felt loss due to his dying as he had been out of my life for some time. It was due to some guilt, as well as other heavy emotions related to my marriage and subsequent divorce of him. It was like a relief that that time in my life was officially over, and I could move on and forget, even though I thought I had done that. Also, it was a bit shocking he died so young. This is just an example of an apparent mourning over a person’s death when in reality my tears where more a catharsis from my past, and a personal cleansing; not due to a feeling of love or loss.

    I have more connection to animals than people. When a pet or animal in my life dies, I always feel some type of loss. I know that they are no longer part of my “animal family”, and the interactions between myself and the remaining animals will be forever different due to the loss of one of us. Some animals have died in shocking ways, or totally unexpected. Although it is always shocking, sometimes I mourn, and sometimes I don’t. I have on several occasions cried for days due to the loss of an animal. Other times, I don’t shed one tear, even though I love all my animals. I’m not sure why.

    I like visiting graveyards because I find them interesting. Particularly historic, old cemeteries. Yet, at the same time I don’t understand the purpose for them. I think it’s strange that a person is buried in a spot unrelated to them, then a monument is erected to remember them by. This seems normal to most people that everybody who has ever lived deserves this monument in their memory. It seems strange to me. I also think it is strange that people go to gravesites to leave flowers and visit the monument to the person they once knew. I will not be buried in a cemetery.

    I think the hardest loss for humans to deal with might be the death of a child. It’s so unnatural and I can see how it might be devastating to parents. Although, in the past, it was very common to lose children. Not that it was any less devastating. Perhaps it’s more difficult on modern people because we don’t expect it.

    These are some of my thoughts on death.

    1. A Victor says:


      I could’ve written your comment, so similar are my thoughts, views, feelings and reactions to death. Thank you for writing it, you put into words what has been in my head and heart.

      1. njfilly says:


        Really? That’s interesting to know because I always believed my feelings were somewhat cold. How do you feel about cemeteries?

        1. A Victor says:

          I love cemeteries. We have one quite close to my house and I have gone there many times. I love reading the headstones, I can spend hours doing that. I know, it is odd, but it is my thing. And might explain why I don’t meet any real live men. Haha.

          1. njfilly says:

            Well, dead men are easier to handle! Ha ha! (metaphorically speaking).

            You probably do have to frequent places where live men might congregate, though, if you want to meet one.

            I also spend time in historic graveyards for the same reason. I enjoy the old headstones particularly ones from my town where the family names are recognized by the street names, and well known farms in the area. If graveyards did not exist we would not have this history, so I guess they do serve a purpose.

            What strikes me, though are the graves from the present era. The grounds are kept up by the crypt keeper (ok, the crew hired by the cemetery) but some of the graves never have flowers or visitors. Then there are the graves that always have flowers for the holidays, mother’s day, veteran’s day, etc. I see sadness in both of these, and I can’t decide which is more sad. Graves that are there but never visited, or graves that appear to be nurtured to the extreme that possibly the families are still in mourning, or can’t seem to move on. They become bound to the cemetery and to the obligation of visiting, and including the gravesite in activities as if it were the living person.

            I believe graveyards, and the visiting and decorating of graves to be one of those things that may have begun as a necessity but eventually was corrupted into a money making industry-with the selling of gravesites, gravestones, grave blankets, etc.- and it’s original purpose and spirit (no pun intended) has been lost and forgotten through time.

          2. A Victor says:

            Haha, I’ve been working on that getting out amongst the living more, it’s like pulling teeth for me but I’m doing it!

            Thank you for sharing more of your thinking! It is fascinating to me how others think of cemeteries. I have had the same bittersweet sense about both flowers/decor and lack thereof. Since learning about narcissism my questions around it have changed a bit. I now wonder if there’s nothing there because of how that person treated others. Or if they were the empathy and the narcissist is disconnected. And with the decorated ones, is there a narcissist buried there who still has a grip on their appliances? Or maybe it’s a narcissist doing the decorating in order to keep up a facade? Or maybe it’s neither and just the evidence of how the loved ones view death, as in the person is gone, or this is an honor to them etc?

            I have a good friend who was my next door neighbor until recently. Her husband is buried in the cemetery near my home so we used to walk there together often so she could water the plant she would put in his grave each year. She does it believing “he’s” gone but from the respect and love she had for him for many years. I think anyway, since I think she’s a normal. It gave me a different view of the decor/lack of decor thing.

            I’m with you on the headstones, fun for me whether I recognize the name or not, each one gets a short life story in my head as I consider the dates and the people around them. The sad ones are the young ones of course. My mom is into genealogy and some of the information she’s found over the years has caused me to have very imaginative stories! 😂

          3. Rebecca says:

            I like cemeteries too, there’s a small one in my neighborhood and also a big one right down the road from my neighborhood. I enjoy looking at the names and dates, and imagining their lives. In my hometown the cemetery is full of flowers by the graves, here they don’t have as many people visiting passed away loved ones. I think it’s a cultural thing between the North and the Southern States, down south we are taught to value family more and I say that from personal experience, being a Navy brat, I lived in the North and the South in America. Anyway, I find the older the cemetery is, the more interesting the grave markers are. When I go home, I visit my parent’s grave and other family that are in the my family owned cemetery. My cousins, on my mother’s side, own both the cemetery and the funeral home in my hometown. I call down there to the cemetery, pay for the flowers over the phone and she puts the flowers on the grave, take a picture and sends it to me. I have pics of family grave markers in a photo album, some of them are quite beautiful, with engravings cast in bronze or stone and names that mean something to me.

          4. A Victor says:

            Rebecca! Thank you for sharing this!! I am so glad to find that others also enjoy these things! My dad has been gone since Nov 2020 and I have been to his grave once, taken by my mother who, I believe, thought it would be fun to see my reaction to her doing so. I sometimes feel I hate her. But that said, she had no idea if I had been there or not and I just ignored the whole thing as much as possible. I don’t know really why I don’t care about going, he’s not there so what’s the point? Maybe that’s it. But aside from that, I do still enjoy cemeteries, I have spent a good chunk of time in the one that he’s in so I know what is there already. And when I made it up to my Dad’s hometown a couple years ago, after not having been there for probably 30 years, I did go see my grandparent’s graves, that was really nice.

    2. Sweetest Perfection says:

      I have felt much more loss after the death of my animals than after the death of many people, Njfilly. When one of my dogs died in tragic circumstances, a person in my family refused to say that he was sorry because “it was just a dog and I don’t care about dogs.” I replied that you don’t say sorry because you necessarily cared about whoever has died, but because you care about whoever is left and is suffering the loss. Be it a celebrity, a dog, or victims of a massacre… you don’t need to know the deceased to feel sorry, you feel sorry for whoever is left behind, suffering. The dead are dead.

      1. Truthseeker6157 says:


        The most traumatic experience I have had was having to take my Belgian Shepherd to be put to sleep. Huge, powerful dog, a failed police dog. His name was Jay. We had two shepherds a German and a Belgian, this was the Alpha, incredibly protective of me from the very first day I got him. He even growled at the trainer when we both went back for training a week after I’d got him. He worshipped me and I him.

        The time came years later when I had to take him to be put to sleep. Female vet, young, good at her job. The first injection to sedate the second to end it. He had the first shot, I sat on the floor, his head in my lap. He wouldn’t go to sleep. Kept trying to stand, we gave it a little longer to take effect, and he stood, beside me, looking at the vet. She gave a second shot and later a third. She sat beside me on the floor, my boy still getting to his feet, me crying silently. She told me that Jay was still trying to protect me, the adrenaline was burning off the sedative, it was kinder for me to leave, because when I did he would stop fighting it. She had her own dog, she showed me a photo and promised she would hold him to the end just as if he were hers.

        I listened to her advice, I wanted to make it easy on him, I kissed him and told him it was ok to go to sleep and I left the room as she took my place on the floor. I have never forgiven myself for leaving the room. I should never have left him.

        Losing a dog is as bad as losing a human friend. There is no difference at all, no reduction in sadness, no fading from memory. It’s true loss, worse when coupled with guilt.

        That was a ridiculous and entirely insensitive thing for your family member to say. I’d struggle ever to forgive that.


        1. lickemtomorrow says:

          TS, the tears are tripping me after reading about your dog, Jay … I’m so sorry you had to go through that and that his death was so painful for you.

          Your description of that moment of letting him go went straight to my heart. I can imagine being the exact same way, not wanting to leave but having to rest on the advice of the vet in the end. I know it won’t make you feel any better, but it was the kindest thing you could do for him in that moment. He fought hard to stay with you. What a brave man he was <3 You weren't 'abandoning' him, but allowing him his final release, even if neither of you wanted him to go. He was faithful to the end. You were faithful in letting him go to his final rest.

          I treasure thoughts of meeting again in the after life. If you have any of the same thoughts, I'll bet Jay will be one of the first to greet you. He loved you so much <3

          Regardless of how you view life and death, he lives on in your memory and you have been able to share his courage and his faithfulness now with us. Your love for him stands out xox I'm so glad he was a part of your life and you a part of his.

          1. Sweetest Perfection says:

            You guys are making me cry!!!

          2. lickemtomorrow says:

            Sorry, SP, I’m still crying 🙁

            I went to see “Marley and Me” at the cinema and on the way out and asked the attendant why they hadn’t supplied tissues on the way in for the audience. Seriously.

          3. Sweetest Perfection says:

            That movie should be banned.

          4. lickemtomorrow says:

            I wish I’d known what I was letting myself in for!

          5. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Lickemtomorrow, if you feel like crying your eyes out to experience catharsis, I recommend A Dog’s Journey. With TONS of tissue.

          6. lickemtomorrow says:

            Oh, SP, I’m not sure I could take it! I wasn’t expecting the catharsis I experienced here in reading this thread, and I won’t even go near when HG disappears, but the whole thing took me by surprise. It may be because I am having a sentimental week anyway after seeing a friend off to more distant climes and knowing I will miss their company and presence. There’s been other conversations about death this week and the whole idea of letting go has taken me apart. I’m no good at goodbyes and in that sense would probably prefer the option of leaving without having to say one. It’s too hard. It’s my understanding dogs will often wander off when they are ready to die. Part of the reason for that is they may inherently know that they are preparing to die and are unable to let go due to their strong ties of loyalty to those they love and who love them. That will make us sad again, but it may also be nature’s way.

            I will remember “A Dog’s Journey” if I’m ever in need of catharsis, and in all honesty it’s been a long time since I’ve had tears so readily available to me with just a thought or a word. These moments can be good for us when we hold ourselves on guard so often in order not to concern others. Another very empathic thing to do <3

            Thankfully, the tissues are still on the shelves for now xox

          7. Sweetest Perfection says:

            LET, I am sorry you have recently gone through such an emotional time. I don’t like saying goodbye either, so much unnecessary drama! My dear uncle passed away a few weeks ago, I was having a very hard time after my family told me since the last time I saw him was last Christmas. Then, a couple of days after that, his mother who was still alive but had Alzheimer, suddenly died. I don’t think it was a coincidence. I believe there are strong ties and she found out one way or another and decided there was nothing left for her to do here. On the other hand, the movie is very beautiful, it makes you cry of happiness not of sadness, and it gives you something to hold onto after the passing of our pet friends. Since I saw this movie, I always think the next dog I rescue is my previous dogs or even a family member who found a way to come back to be with me. I believe in reincarnation (eye rolling I know) so that’s why I always name my dogs using names of people. Writing in this blog has made me realize how fucked up in the head I am! Hahahaha!!!

          8. lickemtomorrow says:

            SP, thank you for your kind words <3

            I'm sorry to hear about your uncle, and his mother's passing does seem to coincide. It's a shock when a death occurs unexpectedly and we will often wish we had a last chance to say goodbye and potentially not leave anything unsaid. In those moments I try to hold on to thoughts of the last time we were together and hopefully fashioned good memories. That is not always possible, but it sounds like it was a special and celebratory time you last spent with your uncle. His mother's passing will be a release, and it does make you wonder about those ties that bind and how attuned we are to them. With her son gone, she may well have felt there was no longer any need for her to remain.

            I'm glad to know the movie is one of happiness and not sadness, and I will endeavour to watch it when I'm not feeling quite as emotional. I'm not rolling my eyes at your thought of reincarnation and it is a comforting thought that we are not parted forever and may still find our way back to one another. I am having a chuckle at your dogs being named after people, and wondering if you decide the names based on the dog's character or looks maybe? I can imagine they are some of your 'best friends' and it's another way of keeping those we love close after they are gone.

            Don't worry, I don't think you're "fucked up" in the head 😉 If you are, I'm even more "fucked up"! x

          9. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Thank you for your thoughts on this. I’ll always be emotional when I think back to Jay, that kind of experience leaves us raw. I’m just as raw now as I was the day it happened, the only difference is that I don’t think about it as often, but when I do, it’s all still there.

            I like to think that too, NJ Filly said similar. At some point I will see him again and Bow his partner in crime. Bow will run up, jumping up at me, “Hiya mum, hiya mum. Mum, mum, hiya!” Jay will lope over, I’ll feel him at my thigh, quiet but constant and he’ll just say, “Alright?”

            It’s no heaven if I can’t have my dogs with me.


          10. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, thank you for creating that beautiful visual of your reunion with both your old friends <3 xox

            How many Corgi's do you think will be there to greet the Queen? She'll have done away with the walking stick then x

          11. Truthseeker6157 says:


            That made me smile, I think you caught the image of them both there x.

            Gosh can you imagine? The Queen will be greeted by a pack! I saw a photo of her the other day. She was bent down to one of her corgis and they were both looking into each other’s eyes. It reminded me that behind all of the pomp and pageantry, she’s just a lady and one who clearly loves her dogs.

          12. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, 🙂

            The Queen loves her pets and it must be quite grounding for her, too. Animals provide a special bond and a certain type of loyalty that can’t be found often amongst humans. I think many of us who have been betrayed may find something special in the closeness we are able to develop with pets. Therapy animals are a thing and horses and dogs are amongst those. They are good for our souls <3

            I have been quite open here about not having a strong connection for the most part to animals, as in my mother for the most part despised them and designated them as dirty and a nuisance. My father was more inclined towards them, but my mother stood in his way.

            I have had pets in the home after having the children and while I don't get overly attached, I have a sentiment in relation to pets that belies my sense of attachment. I think I have been taught or learned not to get close, which doesn't stand up when I am confronted with the breaking of those ties or attachment.

            A story like yours, tales of animal cruelty, all those things affect me. Maybe I am afraid to get too close. I've learned the narcissist's lesson of taking away what is most precious to you.

          13. Truthseeker6157 says:


            This is a really interesting comment. In many ways I assume that all empaths love animals. Huge sweeping generalisation. That’s like saying “All women love chocolate.” Ok, poor example haha!

            It is likely more accurate to say “No empath could be cruel to an animal.” I think I could safely say that would be the case.

            Your mum’s dislike of animals would definitely impact I think. It’s an opinion, taken by the child as fact, which then takes root. I remember my husband telling me that cats were evil. That came from his mum. He threatened to drown any cat I brought home. He’s definitely not an empath then!

            I think it’s different for the empath. The opinion is taken on board, but the instinctive broad range empathy still kicks in alongside. You could see the positive relationships others had with animals and so question the validity of your mother’s view but it’s still there in the background. I’m glad you had pets in your house when your kids were growing up. I get the impression that you do feel attachment to them instinctively, but then almost reject the attachment as being foolish. That part is the voice of the narcissist.

            Narcissists do take pieces of us. If my mum turns out to be one, I’d say that she removed my love of learning and replaced it with fear of failure. I have rediscovered my love of learning through being here. One narcissist took it away, a far more impressive one handed it back. That fear of failure still sits in the background, but I am now able to really enjoy learning. Not for degrees or certificates, just because I enjoy it and like the idea of being knowledgeable in a particular area. I wasn’t aware of the added benefit I would gain in being better placed to protect my kids.

            I read above that this week has been a bad week. Im sorry you are feeling low LET. A friend leaving feels like a loss. Similar to the idea that you won’t see them again. You will though. The friendship evolves into something a little different, but when you do see your friend again, I can confirm that it’s all still there. The same affection, just as if you saw them the day before. Once your friend is settled, perhaps you could make a plan to visit? A new area to explore together. It actually might open a whole new chapter for you, encourage you to travel more often etc. There are positives that appear over time, but I understand how you feel right now and it is sad when things change and life pulls people in different directions x.

            Hang on a sec, let me put my mask on and douse myself in sanitiser and I’ll give you a hug.


            I wonder if at some point you would consider fostering a dog? I’ve considered that myself. The house is too busy just now but at some point I can see myself doing that. My concern is that I wouldn’t be able to give them back but for you it might be a way to explore how you feel without making the long term commitment, plus it’s a volunteer role that I think you would find hugely rewarding.

            The fact that you can so fully empathise with the dog to empath bond makes me think you might just be missing out on something amazing. Something to think about perhaps.


          14. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, you are right in so many things you say.

            I do feel there is an expectation that every empath will be an animal lover, and in truth it’s not that I don’t love animals, it’s most likely my ‘training’ at the narcissist’s hand that has caused me not to become attached to them. I think I mentioned here before we used to visit a lost dog facility as children occasionally and I always came away from it crying 🙁 I wanted to bring them all home. It was torture walking away from needy pets crying out for love and a home. My father bought home a stray puppy once and we loved him, but he very quickly fell ill with Distemper (due to not being cared for originally) and had to be put down. That was incredibly upsetting at the time. It’s obvious I made connections early in life, but my mother’s lack of empathy rubbed off on me as it was clearly a matter of not getting attached being expected.

            All my children have dogs who love me <3. Cats love to hang around me, too 😛 For now, I'll take the love in short spurts. If I got too connected, I'm not sure how I'd make it when they go.

            That's so interesting what you said about your mum, and very disheartening as well. The love of learning is such a precious thing and I can imagine how a focus on succeeding would take away much of that love and replace it with fear. The learning should be the fulfillment of your curiosity, which is where the enjoyment comes from, and often we will do well with things we enjoy. In that sense, we don't need to be pushed to succeed, we will succeed in a fashion naturally. We may not be top of the class, but that doesn't mean we haven't benefited from the learning. It's a shame when so much focus is put on success rather than meaning. It does sound like your mother was living vicariously through you, TS. Your win, or success, was her win or success. That potentially amounts to a very low sense of self esteem, and it sounds like you don't have your results back yet, though there's a good chance you are waiting with bated breath now. If your mother was a narcissist it would explain a lot. You've created an element of distance, so either way I think you have already done what you needed to do for you. It is an irony, like it is for most of us, that we are being given back what was taken from us by one who steals or robs in the exact same way. We also better placed to help others, including our children.

            Thanks for your reassurance around my friend leaving. They are moving into a new phase of their life which means distance and new opportunities. It's bittersweet in that sense. I know it is good for them, but I will miss them and their reliability which has helped to see me through some of my darker times more recently. It is a full circle moment, I guess, where things are changing for me as well and the friendship to a certain extent has served its purpose. Not to say we won't remain friends, but we will be friends in a different capacity now. That's OK. I've met this cycle of change before and been able to manage it, even if a few tears needed to be shed in the letting go xox

            Feel free to put that mask on and sanitise, but as far as I know I've passed the marker for being infectious 🙂

            I do have one question for you and I hope you don't think I am remiss in asking. There is also no need for you to answer, but I am curious as you occasionally refer to your 'husband' and not your 'ex-husband' … are you still married, separated, but not divorced? I think mine became my 'ex' on separation, but we certainly cemented that notion in divorce. I know you also said he is still in your children's lives. So is mine. We can be mired in all kinds of relationship situations, but he certainly doesn't sound like an empath if he's willing to drown a cat!

            OK, I may have gone too far there, but I expect you will let me know if that's the case. And forgive me also xox

        2. Sweetest Perfection says:

          This made my eyes tear, Rebecca. I’ve been in that position and I know how it feels. In my opinion it’s worse when you arrive home after that. I don’t think often about what that person said to me. Only those who matter are the ones that can hurt.

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Yes, coming in to the absence is awful. That just aches. They give such life and love to a home and there’s just that awful void afterwards.

            I’m sorry you have guilt to contend with too. Accidents will happen to the best, most careful and most loving dog owners, but I totally understand how the self blame goes. It sounds totally unwarranted in your case, but I know how it goes.

            No worries about the name error, I answer to most things haha!

            Hugs to you SP.


        3. Sweetest Perfection says:

          TS, I am sorry, when I commented back I said Rebecca, I read a comment by her prior to yours and I got the two names confused. I also wanted to let you know that I feel guilt for the death of one my dogs too, because she ran away from me and there’s not one single moment I don’t think it was entirely my fault. Guilt is painful and cruel. I am sorry you feel that way, though you shouldn’t feel guilty. You did what was best for your friend. ❤️

        4. njfilly says:


          That is sad. I’m so sorry. We can only do what we think is best and you shouldn’t feel guilty or punish yourself.

          I believe animals have a soul and they go where we go after death. Jay knows you loved him. He also knows now why you left the room and he understands and is not bothered by it. I hope you find peace with this.

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:

            NJ Filly,

            Thank you for your kind words. I know how much of an animal lover you are and how they are such an important part of your life. Your understanding of my actions means a lot.

            I hope we do find our animals again. Empath heaven would be totally totally wrong without our beloved companions.


        5. psychologyandworldaffairs says:


          I fully get the bond which forms between you and your dog. Almost a spiritual connection which forges both ways and is amazing. Protective, loyal and non-judgemental – who cannot love them?

          TS – like others I cried at your story. It resonated with my own feelings of guilt – I feel I took my first GSD for granted.

          Big hugs to you both for your loses xx

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Thank you x. I didn’t mean to take people back to their own losses but we’re empaths and that’s very much what we all do. We recall, empathise and feel how the other feels. Empathy is a really beautiful and comforting thing.

            I think we try to be all things to all the souls we care about. Life is busy and it gets in the way sometimes. We look back and chastise ourselves for all of the things we think we could have done better. I think the reason we do this is because we love so hard. Dogs can sense, and yours will have known how much he was loved.


        6. Contagious says:

          TS: I lost my Englishbulldog Scouser at 14.5 years. He was my sons pick so we were with him when he was put to sleep. I kissed his head. I swear he was relieved. He had dementia and would bark at the walks, had trouble walking… but he still loved to eat lol. After he died a bit later, I had a dream where I went to this English manor. A dark haired petite woman named Susan answered. Her home was very Chinz and a painter was there. He should me what he was painting. We were seated having tea in the salon. Suddenly Scouser appeared. He was his robust younger self. He sat next to Susan then I heard the tink tink of familiar footsteps and my other deceased dog a little Black and Tan chi named Cookie ( my daughters pic) came in. I woke up. I believe dogs are angels. X

          1. Contagious says:

            Sorry about the loss of your dog. A hard loss x

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:


            How lovely! I’d love to see my two in my dreams, I’m very happy for you that you did, and back to their old selves, the way they would want you to think of them. Your Contagion is a real gift, hard sometimes, but a real gift.

            Thank you for sharing your thoughts and your experience.


        7. JB says:

          Oh TS, I really feel for you. I know it’s easier said than done, but please try to forgive yourself for what happened. You were doing what you thought was best for your boy, having taken medical advice. Often both animals and humans continue to hold on until their loved ones leave the room, so by following the vet’s advice you were showing him that it was ok to let go and be released from his pain. I know it won’t have hurt any less though, and am so sorry that you continue to feel tortured by the choice you made that day xxxx

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hello JB x

            Thank you for your understanding. I hadn’t thought of it that way. You’re right, I have heard of that before, leaving when a loved one is out of the room. Thank you for pointing that out to me, I can take some comfort in that thought.


          2. JB says:

            I’m glad it helped, TS xxx

      2. njfilly says:

        I’m sorry about your dog. It is very sad to lose a pet, particularly in tragic circumstances, and compounded by the coldness of people around you. It is an emotional experience many people can’t relate to. I’m sorry that happened to you. I have experienced that so many times I don’t even want to think about it. It’s good to know other people feel deeply about animals the way I do. Thank you for your comment.

        Unfortunately, living on a farm there are many animal deaths and horrible accidents. It just comes with the territory. I think maybe it traumatized me in ways that I wasn’t aware of until recently. I am currently looking for a counselor or therapist. I had many experiences in my life I never appropriately dealt with.

        1. Sweetest Perfection says:

          Thank you Njfilly. It was really awful and the image still haunts me some nights. I imagine living in a farm those things are common, such is nature. Good luck finding help, it’s important to recognize we sometimes need an expert to help us process our feelings.

      3. JB says:


        That’s such a horrible thing that your relative said! I am not a massive dog-lover, but it somebody I knew had lost theirs, I would treat the loss as any other. It beggars belief that some people can be so cold and uncaring towards others xx

        1. Sweetest Perfection says:

          Thank you, JB. I am very defensive when it comes to my dogs. My neighbor -who is, let’s say, a little “hard of understanding” using HG’s definition- told me once she had some meat she couldn’t feed her children because she thought it might have gone bad and asked if I wanted it for my dogs. I replied my dogs eat better quality food than her kids.

          1. Another Cat says:

            SP wrote:

            “she thought it might have gone bad and asked if I wanted it for my dogs. I replied my dogs eat better quality food than her kids.”

            I love your answer.
            She doesn’t just sound hard of understanding, but also a wee bit

          2. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Yes AC, and those kids are seriously stranded as well. My husband says they are waiting to eat us all.

          3. JB says:

            Blimey SP, some neighbour! I can only assume that she thought that although it was no longer safe for human consumption, that it would still be ok for an animal? Or was she just being nasty? I don’t think I would have taken the risk offering it if I had been her; I would never have forgiven myself if the poor animal got ill as a result!

          4. Sweetest Perfection says:

            She owns two dogs. My husband and I are constantly saving those poor things from being run over because they are always walking around the street by themselves. When we call her to let her know, she gets frustrated and doesn’t even thank us. So I think she is not an animal lover. She got the first one for the kids (who I am sure are growing into psychopaths) and the other one who is an adorable yellow lab puppy was unluckily inherited because someone in her family passed away.

      4. Rebecca says:

        It was pretty heartless of that person to not acknowledge your loss, whether or not your loss is a person or animal, doesn’t matter….it’s a loss and a hurt that should have been acknowledged. I’m sorry you experienced that. Xx What an asshole.

        1. Sweetest Perfection says:

          It’s my uncle, Rebecca. He is a published poet and I have presented some of his books for him in public events. We love each other, but he’s an ass when it comes to animals. I think he is narcissistic, as he shows empathy and love but is very self centered too. I don’t think about it often. On the other hand, somatic narc did know about the incident. He called me immediately (vulnerability opportunity) groomed me through my pain, and used that as a chance to harpoon me. Not everyone who expresses their condolences have your best interests in mind….but thank you so much. I know you and others here do know how much it hurt and your words are genuine.

          1. Rebecca says:


            I’m sorry I called your uncle an asshole, but I feel for you for having to deal with his attitude with animals. I know what you mean when you say, some people don’t have the best intentions for you when they give you condolences. When my dad died, there was an older guy at church who tried to kiss me when I was talking to him and crying over my dad. He was acting all concerned,but he was just trying to get a kiss or a feel…whichever, a real creep…and no, he didn’t get a kiss or a feel, he got my silence, a glare and a quick getaway from him. If I was in a different frame of mine and not grieving at the moment, I would have at least kicked him, the most a punch to the nose, but I didn’t do anything, but back up, glare and leave. I explained to the pastor why I wasn’t coming back to the church and I haven’t been back to any church since.

    3. NarcAngel says:

      I can relate to all of that but especially the animals. I have reflected on people, but I feel an actual ache in my chest for a long period after I lose an animal (even now when I think of them). They don’t even have to be mine though. I am already dreading the oncoming death of the aging dog next door who I can only interact with over the fence. Maybe it has to do with people being able to make choices with their lives where animals are dependant on others for any kindness and their survival. They have to take what they get with no say in the matter. Just like I did as a child. Yes, I think that’s it. I see my childhood in them and I mourn that.

      As for a grave? Ridiculous. I will be cremated because I cannot trust that the landscaping will be kept to my standards and I don’t know the neighbours.

      1. Sweetest Perfection says:

        NA, I prefer cremation too but because of the same fear that Edgar Allan Poe had of being buried alive. Ironically, all my close friends know that when I die, I want Depeche Mode to sound at my funeral. I should start working on a playlist, lest they play something inappropriate like Master and Servant at the funeral.

      2. Viol. says:

        I was devastated when I learned from my old neighbor’s Instagram that the Puppy Formerly Next Door had died. He was a Great Pyr, and the giant breeds do tend to die at 10 years or so, but he will always be a puppy to me. Or a barking guardian angel, since he used to tell me when to use my inhaler. I always had to wave at him through the window whenever out I went in or out, and he would bounce and wag at me when I did. He had me well-trained. It was good to have someone who cared.

        I wonder if it’s blasphemous to want him for my guardian angel.

        The puppy is my shepherd; I shall not brood
        He maketh me to have a cuppa when I have flu or depression
        He greeteth me when I wake in the morning, and shutteth not up until I greet back
        Yea, though I walk back and forth between the kitchen and my desk
        He waiteth until I sit down, and his nails click-click-click until he is over the room where I am
        He protesteth when I use the bathroom, because it is too small for his Fluffitude to fit; his fuzz runneth over

        The guy pretty much adopted me. My vocal coach says he’ll meet me on the rainbow bridge one day, but I said, “That’s for owners.” Vocal coach: “he decides that.”

        Well, he did own me.

        1. WhoCares says:


          “He protesteth when I use the bathroom, because it is too small for his Fluffitude to fit; his fuzz runneth over”


          That whole thing was awesome.

          Love your puppy stories.

          1. Viol. says:

            Thanks, WhoCares.

            When I told my neighbor about his following me from one floor up, she said he complained to her whenever she took a shower. Technically, he could get in the bathroom, but he couldn’t turn around there, and he didn’t entirely grasp the physics of backing out.

        2. njfilly says:

          Ha ha! Viol, that was great! I loved “shutteth not up” and “his fuzz runneth over”.

          I am going to use that as a new dog command now: Ye dog, shutteth up thy deafening yap.

          My last cat, Foxy Shadow, had many nicknames as all my cats do. One was “Big Fuzz”.

        3. Sweetest Perfection says:

          “The puppy is my shepherd; I shall not brood
He maketh me to have a cuppa when I have flu or depression..” ayyyyyyyyy my heart 💔

      3. WhoCares says:

        “As for a grave? Ridiculous. I will be cremated because I cannot trust that the landscaping will be kept to my standards and I don’t know the neighbours.”


        1. Rebecca says:

          I do get in trouble sometimes, you’re right. Friends come to me when they’re fighting and I’m in the middle playing referee and trying to get them to talk and work it out. I’m going through that right now with friends who are roommates. They’re going their separate ways and it makes me sad,but they’re adults and decide for themselves what they want to do. I just give suggestions and keep them calmer than they were before. People and animals seek me out for help it seems and narcs are attracted by me for things they see I have, like my high emotions and my crazy laugh is a real come and get it siren…..geezu, people talk about my laugh 😂 They seem to enjoy making me laugh and smile.

      4. njfilly says:

        Interesting. I didn’t realize you were an animal lover. Perhaps you have mentioned it on the blog but I didn’t see it. I guess most empaths love animals, I don’t know.

        It’s sad to read how you felt as a child and why it makes you relate to animals. I think you are correct that may be the reason. Do you have any pets? Maybe you should get one? I know some people can’t have a pet because they can’t bear the loss when it dies.

        I was always drawn to animals as a child, and in childhood they were my friends and comfort from my family. I had real human friends in the neighborhood too. I just love animals so much. I enjoy having different species, and learning their different languages, if you will. Interacting with a cat is different from interacting with a goat, for example. I like that I am fluent in multiple animal species languages. I know nothing about reptiles, however. I find them interesting because they are animals, but I don’t want to own one.

        Funny about the grave. Ha ha! You are very witty!

      5. FYC says:

        NA, So sorry to read that, but I identify with what you are sharing. Oh, and I do want to see your garden!

    4. Sweetest Perfection says:

      Njfilly, maybe it is because those who offered their condolences immediately associate the band with him because they don’t usually speak with anyone who likes Depeche Mode, or not as much? I know some people immediately thought of me when reading the news and contacted me. Everyone knows Fletch and I are not related, I didn’t even speak with this person once, but it’s a genuine act of care and I took it as that. Well, not all were. Some were hoovers. But still, the association is the same. Member of Depeche Mode suddenly dies: oh, I gotta tell HG! That’s all.

      1. njfilly says:

        I see. Thank you for that explanation.

        In truth HG Tudor is the only person I know who likes Depeche Mode, so I do somewhat associate them together as well.

        1. Sweetest Perfection says:

          You know me too! Haha

    5. Viol. says:

      It’s not that strange. When Stephen Sondheim died, a bunch of theatre friends were calling and texting each other to commiserate. These are people who did church basement productions in B’klyn, not B’way stars, but they considered them watershed moments in their lives. Even someone with whom I had never done one of his shows called because she knew I was a big fan. Before he broke out as a composer, he did lyrics on several major shows, including West Side Story and Gypsy. My vocal coach has music-directed WSS and Company, in addition to music-directing Into the Woods twice.

      But I almost understand HG’s reaction to music. What I love best about music is the one thing he must never allow: I willingly surrender to it and let it take control.

    6. WhoCares says:


      Thank-you for sharing your thoughts on death, I found them interesting to read.

      A couple of your stories reminded me of odd reactions I have had, in the past, to the deaths of individuals close to me.

      I vividly recall attending the funeral of a friend of my mother’s (long before I knew my mother was a narcissist & implementing NC). This woman, and my mother used to go out dancing (when my mother was still healthy enough to dance). This friend had also attended at some of our family gatherings (Thanksgiving, etc.), so I knew her fairly well. 
      She kinda of shined like a bright light. She was cheerful and engaging and – though legally blind – would still get dressed up, put her make up on, and go out dancing.

      She loved dancing.
      She also died dancing. 

      My memory is failing me here, but she died while dancing with a gentleman from a stroke..or brain aneurysm… uncertain (it’s been over a decade at least.) And, I recall thinking, despite the tragedy of it – well, that wouldn’t be a bad way to go.

      But what struck me the most – while being present at her funeral – was how beautiful a person she was, and while there were many in attendance at the service, no one seemed that visibly upset. It was so odd. Even my mother was not that emotional (which was highly unusual because she would normally capitalize on that kind of event). And, part way through the service, I just started balling (like, not loudly), but in a way where I couldn’t rail it in. I remember thinking, “What the hell? I didn’t know her *that* well. I shouldn’t be so personally impacted.”

      However, I think it was just the stark contrast of the person I knew her to be – someone who loved life, was passionate, and unapologetically herself – with the unmoved response of the crowd of people there. I remember thinking, “Am I the only one who is going to cry for her?” (I think I cried more at this woman’s funeral than I did at the funeral of my favourite aunt!)

      Anyway, reading your stories, and recalling my own experiences, made me realize that sometimes we truly cannot anticipate how we feel about someone’s death until it occurs.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        WhoCares, reading your comment made me consider various funerals that I had attended in my life-time.

        Yesterday , I found an obituary about a family member that had passed away some years ago and I did not even know about it. Was I upset? No, not at all. It is not even a “long lost” family either. There was just no contact after my grandmother died. She was most likely a lower “level” (sub-school) than muvver was, either way, they were just awful people to be around. Put those two women in a cage, muvver would have physically lost.

        1. WhoCares says:

          Asp Emp,

          “Put those two women in a cage, muvver would have physically lost”

          Oh dear.

          Not a loss either way, I suppose!

          1. Asp Emp says:

            WhoCares, no 🙂 She would have deserved it. As for the other woman, well, her dogs took the ‘brunt’ if you can understand.

          2. WhoCares says:

            Asp Emp,

            Her dogs?

            Oh no. 😔

          3. Asp Emp says:

            WhoCares, yes. What I saw when I was around 10 / 11 was far more than enough, followed by a 20 year “break” (No Contact!!) of seeing that family (after my father died up to my grandmother died). What I read the other day, confirmed that she still had dogs…… anyway, no more dogs have to have ‘her’.

          4. WhoCares says:

            Asp Emp,

            “anyway, no more dogs have to have ‘her’.”

            Glad to hear it!

      2. njfilly says:

        Very interesting, WhoCares. Thanks for sharing your story. Why do you think you had that emotional reaction to the woman’s death?

        Now that you mention it, I was the only person crying at my ex husband’s funeral. His parents weren’t even crying. And I was not just crying, I was literally in the back, by myself, sobbing, but quietly really. Not outwardly making a scene, but I’m sure people couldn’t help but notice.

        Eventually my ex sister in law called me over to sit with her and the family, but I honestly don’t remember if I did. I only remember her gesturing to me to come sit with them.

        I do remember that I told his mother I was sorry for everything that happened. She responded, well I guess that’s all you can say. His father would not speak to me. I often wonder what everybody was thinking about my reaction. People I used to know where there, and I could barely recognize them or remember their names. I can forget things very quickly if they are not important to me. Other things I vividly remember.

        1. WhoCares says:


          “She responded, well I guess that’s all you can say. His father would not speak to me.”

          Not a very gracious response to your grief and words.

          “I often wonder what everybody was thinking about my reaction.”

          Ditto, in my story – as none of the attendees even knew me or of me, I am sure (other than my mother)…like, maybe they thought: “Who is this strange girl so distraught over our relative/friend/loved one?”

          “Why do you think you had that emotional reaction to the woman’s death?”

          To answer your question, (other than the contrast I mentioned) I think I was just acutely aware that, in this woman’s death, the world had lost a unique and vivacious soul.

          1. njfilly says:

            Maybe they thought you were a long lost daughter or relative?

            The first funeral I ever attended I was about 13 and it was a 16 year old relative who died in a car accident. It was very strange seeing such a young person dead, also since it was my first funeral.

            About ten years ago we visited the mother of the girl and she had a shrine to her daughter in her living room. I don’t think she ever got over it.

          2. WhoCares says:



            Regarding the 16 year old – I’ll bet that experience was strange…and quite sad, for that mother, to lose her child.

          3. njfilly says:

            Actually, I was satisfied with her response. I did not need anything else from her, just to hear and acknowledge what I said.

          4. WhoCares says:

            Oh, okay!

          5. njfilly says:

            Actually, I was mistaken. My first funeral was my mother’s father when I was 10. The funeral home had a bar in the basement next to the embalming room. The adults would send me down to the bar to get drinks and I would wander around. I wasn’t afraid. It was very sterile like a hospital room and smelled like formaldehyde. Well, I think that is what I was smelling. A chemical smell. I remember my aunt picked a piece of lint off my grandfathers arm so when I went up to the casket I touched his arm as well, and I was shocked that it was cold and hard! I guess I didn’t expect that at 10 years old.

          6. WhoCares says:


            Well, that’s quite the funeral memory for a child. (A bar next to the embalming room??)

            I find people’s experiences with death interesting (morbid, I know). Was touching your grandfather’s arm your first experience with death? (Don’t feel obligated to answer.)

          7. njfilly says:

            Yes, as far as I remember it was my first experience with death. Strangely, I was not frightened to be in the basement and I wandered around curiously.

            Isn’t that interesting that there was a bar in the basement? This was 1975. You know how after a funeral people get together for drinks and food? Well it was like this was that celebration, but it was all held at the same place and at the same time. I think there may have been food there too, but I honestly don’t remember completely at this time.

            While I was attending an equestrian college I took some courses in art and writing, and I used this funeral experience as the basis for a short story. I got an A. I have that story some where. I have to find it. Honestly, I can feel my memory of that event fading now. It was more clear at the time I wrote about it.

  5. Sweetest Perfection says:

    NA, “When a celebrity dies whose work I admire …” a hoover follows. Haha I got 3 already.

  6. NarcAngel says:

    I find the level of investment and attachment people place on celebrities bizarre. People act like they know the true nature of the person, but they are really only projecting on them what they want to see or believe generally based on whatever media they choose to accept as truth. The Depp series was an excellent example of that. People seemed so invested in him being found an empath. Why? I wondered. I was willing to consider all that was presented as a form of exercise in what we learn here, (and originally I saw the titles as the choice being Narcissist or Empath only), but I saw enough to know that he is not someone I would want my daughter or sister with for example (and strangely someone stated that they would for theirs “if he got sober”). Wtf?! My view is that these types of emotional projections are a danger that leads to ensnarement and continuing abuse in our own lives and are something that we need to be aware of and work on within ourselves (why we feel the need to invest so much in someone without examining why it is so important to us). That is a proactive measure that we can implement ourselves.

    When a celebrity dies whose work I admire (Narc or otherwise), I simply feel disappointment that there will be no more from them but am lightened by the fact that I live in an age where I can continue to enjoy what they produced while here. I don’t (can’t) mourn the person because I never truly knew them (even if I have briefly met them it tells me nothing of certainty about their life). It helps to start by recognizing the reality that most celebrities given the choice likely wouldn’t give you the time of day unless there’s something in it for them no matter how lovely you have made them out to be.

    1. Truthseeker6157 says:


      When I think of this kind of thing I always think of the images of Beatle Mania for some reason. Women crying and fainting over their favourite Beatle. I think the Beatles were probably the greatest example of a band that drew that kind of behaviour on a mass scale. Elvis too maybe. Personally I don’t get it. I’ve never thrown my knickers on stage either.

      I don’t understand the hero worship idea at all. I do understand the more melancholic reaction though. I think people associate certain music with key events in their own lives. They might associate a concert with a specific happy time period or a particular group of friends they no longer see. So I think the melancholy stems from an an absence or a looking back on their own lives. The band serves more as a marker within their past rather than people grieving a person they never met or met briefly. The idea of “I’ll never get to see him on stage again” for some serves as a reminder that we are all getting older and life will always move on.
      The genuine melancholy is more to do with that I think. The extreme wailing and gnashing of teeth though, I’m with you, don’t get it, probably Midrangers for the most part!

      I didn’t think to offer condolences to HG, purely because I know he doesn’t care. If HG lost a family member though, his sister for example, I would offer condolences despite knowing HG doesn’t care emotionally. It’s the right thing to do in that context and to not offer condolences would be for me to amend my own behaviour to fit the narcissist. I do what I feel is right, whilst remaining respectful, hence condolences would be offered in a succinct fashion.

    2. Asp Emp says:

      NA, reading your last sentence in your comment here reminded me of the time when I met Cilla Black in person. She wore no make-up. She was miserable and aloof. Not the bubbly character that people saw on the tv in her “Blind Date” programmes. Ah, the irony. She came into the small supermarket around 10 minutes before closing time, shopped and had a full trolley of food. By the time she got to the checkout I was working at, it was already past my work shift finish time. She did not even say thank you. I disliked her from that point. I was in my mid 20s. And, no, I did not get paid overtime. So I had reason to dislike her even more for that in itself. So, your last sentence rings true, to a degree.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Cilla Black was a see you next Tuesday.

        1. Asp Emp says:

          Yes, she was, HG. I wish I had known those words back then, I certainly would have said them to her and added fkg bi*ch to that too!! (laughing as I type this 🙂 )

      2. WhoCares says:

        I recall the (sad) day when it was clear to me that Balki Bartokomous didn’t really have an accent.

    3. njfilly says:

      Hi NarcAngel,

      I’m curious, how would you feel if HG Tudor were to die?

      1. HG Tudor says:

        It is treason to imagine the death of the king, you know.

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          “It is treason to imagine the death of the king.”

          Is Elvis not dead then?

          1. Leigh says:

            Ooof! You might get sent to the dungeon for that one, TS! LOL!

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Dungeon under reno’. Now we have to mow, and do perfect stripes.


        2. njfilly says:

          Is it? I wasn’t aware of that. I apologize Your Majesty.

          Are there people who wish you were dead? I assume so.

          Do you think your ex IPPS’s wish you were dead? What do you think would be their reaction to your death?

          I will be very sad when I hear about your passing. I may even cry. I assume you will die before me due to the toxicity of anger, hatred and resentment built up within your body.

          1. Viol. says:

            We may not even know. If there’s no “Reveal of HG Tudor’s Secret Identity: Film at 11!” all we know is the blog and the videos stopped. Maybe we were discarded….

        3. Francine says:

          I would be very sad and disappointed if HD died. Not for him for me I would miss all the knowledge and information that makes me feel like an emotional genius. There so much more work that can be explored so much more knowledge I want to go deep deep down the rabbit hole. I’d like to see a video or information on how a therapist can tell if they’re dealing with a narcissist in therapy quickly not after 6 months what are some of the clues. I have some ideas but I think I could spot them but I want to hear what HG has to say about that. So no dying any time soon. I need more. thank you.

          1. Savoy Truffle says:

            Good heavens. There would be no more live streams. I have questions only he can answer! No, I just won’t have it.

            The worst part is, we would probably have no way of knowing if it happened.

      2. A Victor says:

        It’s worse than treason. It made me cry already.

        1. njfilly says:

          Oops. Sorry, AV.

          1. A Victor says:

            It’s okay NJFilly, I have to prepare myself for the possibility anyway. Though the likelihood is that I’ll go long before HG does.

        2. Rebecca says:

          I’d be very upset and emotional, and definitely would cry.

          1. A Victor says:

            I would likely cry also, for real. But otherwise, the emotion would be contained.

      3. Joa says:

        Sorry to speak up without being asked, but I can’t stop my tongue 🙂

        That’s a great question! And I am also curious about other people’s statements, to recognize how each of us perceives HG individually.


        I’d be angry and disappointed, if the blog and content that interests me has been stopped 🙂

        Sadness – no. I am not personally bound in any way.

        Sense of loss – yes. I would be sorry, that something that partially influenced my life and that I appreciate, was prematurely interrupted, unfinished.

        I hate “broken”, unfinished things (that’s annoying N.’s tactic)! Hopefully, HG has made some arrangements to work here in the event of his death, I’ve thought about that before.


        Summing up: HG don’t die for now! And the character with the scythe please kindly avoid the buildings with towers 🙂

        1. njfilly says:

          Hi Joa:

          This is a public blog, and as far as I am concerned all conversations are open for anybody to enter into at any time. Nobody needs to be asked. This is the way I see it, and how I interact. We are all sitting around the table (or in this instance, the computer) just waiting to add our thoughts anywhere it strikes us.

          Personally, I like when a random person comments into a conversation adding a new perspective that had previously not been considered, or even a joke. I view this blog as mostly informal banter, even if the subjects are sometimes serious. This is not the forum for any personal, serious conversations.

          Your comment is interesting. I don’t think I would be mad. Even though I enjoy the blog, and there are so many interesting comments and conversations I would love to be a part of, I don’t have the time and I can’t follow them all. I would feel a loss though, so I would probably be disappointed, because I enjoy reading them.

          I would be sad. I enjoy this man’s existence and contributions (there must be many people who do not) and on a personal level, I enjoy our interactions, even if I am interacting with a facade.

          I think he mentioned once before that he has made arrangements for his work to continue in the event of his death.

          1. A Victor says:

            I agree that all new thoughts are beneficial in some way. For learning, fun, support etc.

            I think the biggest thing I will feel should HG, heaven forbid, go before I do is gratitude at having known him and what he is offering to the world. And also, for me, sadness at not being able to talk with him again. Haha, I’m very hooked! Have some fuel HG! 🙂

          2. Joa says:

            Njfilly, the question was directed directly to NA, so I made an excuse. But I couldn’t waste it 🙂

            In my opinion, this forum is a good place for serious and personal discussions. Like in life – once seriously, once with a laugh 🙂

            I would be angry, because this is the place, where I indulge in my addiction. It’s so similar here, so convergent… Take my cigarette from me in the evening, or hide the drugs from an addicted person, and the reaction will be the same 🙂

            There are three main reasons I’m here:
            – Addiction and the opportunity to write to you and with you (this is my primary method of cleansing myself).
            – The curiosity of another human being, i.e. HG.
            – Curious, what else will HG tell us and what will propose?

            I’m less interested in science. I’ve been here for a year (ooo, anniversary!) and I’ve learned enough, to understand what I didn’t understand; get to know a new, previously unknown perspective and to assess people even more accurately.

            Most of you are very diligent students and loyal distributors. I guess I’m a little more lazy 🙂 And much more selfish.

        2. Joa says:


          Upon further reflection, this would be the dominant feeling.
          I’m still not saturated.

          And this deficiency would also be dominant, if N2 died (+ sadness, regret, melancholy, longing). Being with him, I also felt it, I couldn’t get enough of him… I was still “hungry”.

          1. njfilly says:

            Deficiency is the least of what I would feel.

            I have not read nor learned everything available here, but I have read and learned enough. I have no interest in becoming an expert in this area.

          2. njfilly says:

            Hi Joa:

            I was thinking about this. I think I understand your deficiency comment.

            When I first came across information about narcissism and began learning, I couldn’t get enough. I binge watched many videos for days at a time. I did this consistently for months. Then I backed off a little but I still continued to watch videos. I did that for approx. 1 1/2 years. Although the videos will always be available, if the information had stopped flowing at that time, I would have felt deficiency.

            I am now about 3 years into my discovery about narcissists so I guess I am now saturated with enough information for my purposes. Honestly, I feel mentally free from it now.

          3. Joa says:

            Njfilly, until it gets bored… Until something else engulfs you.

            That’s the truth.

            “Nothing lasts forever and nothing is forever”… he told me. Yes.

            I am glad, that I found this corner 🙂

        3. A Victor says:

          Joa, you bring up an interesting thought, that of leaving things unfinished. I have thought of that also and my thinking is kind of odd perhaps but I look at it like, wherever things are when someone does is where it is finished, no more was meant to be. That is one reason I hope, and believe, that HG has plenty of time yet to get out all the information he deems important to the topic. If there are things left unfinished/unanswered because time runs out (many years from now), that might be a bit frustrating for sure. But I’d probably perceive it was sadness more than annoyance or irritation. And I’d start looking to the information I do have to try and figure out the answers. I mean, right now I feel like we have enough to become narcissist free if we want to, and I think some people do come, get what they need and move on, maybe they’re normals or empaths with a very low truthseeker trait for example. But if people can do, it means it is doable, and if so for them, I can also. I may just have to accept not having all my questions answered, which as hard as that would be for me, I would be able to do. It would be horrible though. So I very selfishly hope I shuffle off before HG does. And yes, I am giggling about this whole train of thought. Wanting to die before someone else so I am not left with unanswered questions? That is embarrassing!! 😂

        4. njfilly says:

          Hi Joa:

          Even though this is trivial, I want to clarify something.

          I wrote; “This is not the forum for any personal, serious conversations.”

          What I meant, and should have said was “private” conversations. We often talk about personal and serious issues, but we can’t expect that they are “private conversations” since this is a public blog.

          1. Joa says:

            Njfilly, I understand!

      4. NarcAngel says:

        Hi NJF

        While we can never really know how we will react, my best prediction today would be:

        Disappointment for myself and others in being unable to witness what new and innovative products HG had planned in future and his methods for teaching them, as well as previously mentioned works in progress but unfinished (The Creature, Little Boy Lost, etc). Most especially disappointed for those unable to consult with him directly to receive personal insight and instruction regarding their situation. Reading and listening to videos is one thing, but consultation is the most beneficial.

        I would miss his interaction amongst the learning. Namely his sense of humour and ability to provide succinct yet accurate answers.

        Concerned that ground that has been gained in Narcissism Awareness due to his work would become stalled, or worse, pirated and adulterated by others to the detriment of those yet to be introduced to HG’s work and who will receive inaccurate and possibly dangerous information. Anger if he was not recognized and credited for leading the wave.

        Grateful that I gained the answers I sought through access to HG and his work. Also for the ability to continue to access and enjoy the works that I have purchased and those sure to have been catalogued for his continued legacy. Grateful also to have been afforded by him the opportunity to interact with others here on the blog for the purposes of additional learning and support.

        Some responsibility to address the concerns in paragraph three by ensuring that I continue to share and credit his work and direct people to it. Not solely in gratitude to HG but more so for those who need the help to get accurate information.

        He has created an ever-presence to be sure (I mean I watch HGTV every day! and when I think of celestial bodies and mythology I am reminded of the Knowing HG series), but there will be no mourning or tears. Just a genuine appreciation for what he was able to create and achieve from the hand he was dealt and from what he experienced and endured. I will reflect on and celebrate the ability of a man who while achieving his own aims (most of which we may not agree with or approve of), managed through those to indirectly provide freedom and a positive direction for others. A win/win with a narcissist is something none of us could have predicted or imagined.

        Oh! Almost forgot the chocolate tonsils.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I’ll take that albeit I’m going nowhere!

        2. njfilly says:

          Wow, NA, that was an extensive detailed response. You do have a great sense of humor. I love that HGTV!

          I have to admit that I have absolutely no concern about his work being stalled or adulterated by others, although that is a good point. I believe it will happen, but it is not my concern. I also do not feel any responsibility about sharing or crediting his work, either for him or others, after his passing. There are other knowledgeable people, even though he is the expert.

          I will feel disappointment about the unfinished work-good point, but not for others who are unable to consult with him, but because I anticipate purchasing the empath products, as well as the books you mentioned.

          I may actually mourn and shed tears. In comparison to our views it seems as though my feelings are mostly based upon the personal loss I will feel, and yours seem to be based upon the loss of his contributions and availability to help other people, if I may interpret it in this way. Very empathic of you and narcissistic of me, but I have given my honest opinions. I do agree though, we never really know how we will respond to events until they actually happen.

          Oh yes, I will definitely miss that velvety voice!

          1. Viol. says:


            “I also do not feel any responsibility about sharing or crediting his work, either for him or others, after his passing.”

            I do, because that’s how we “know” Shakespeare, Chaucer, and the Brontes. You can learn about human nature from literature precisely because it doesn’t approach things clinically. The wordplay, snotty comments, references to music and the arts make HG’s work far more resonant and accessible to many people than a thousand preachy advice manuals. We’re not only told to Get Out, Stay Out, but we have a multiple scripts of what happens when we don’t (and it’s never good). Once we grasp the point that it’s not back-up “supply” but rather FUEL, and they HAVE to have it, we realize that there’s no way to fix the situation. Narcs gotta manipulate continually or they run out of gas in the middle of the Long Island Expressway during rush hour.

            Co-workers sabotaging their own business success, guys that shoot in the foot their own chances of getting not-so-spicy poon (I’m not corrupt enough to teach them anything they don’t already know), even teachers who sabotaged their own careers by provoking me to misbehavior when I hadn’t been acting up, then had to answer the principal’s logical question, “So why doesn’t she do it in her other classes?”–it’s all answered on Narcsite.

            Even if HG eventually goes to that Fuel Tank in the Sky and can’t do personal consults or new recordings, there is ample material here to help victims of narcs get some insight on why it can’t work and why some of us are repeatedly targeted. I learned that I didn’t have to DO anything: just having an expressive face or voice was bait for narcs, though it may be an asset in theatre.

            I’m still trying to get my web-challenged friend to the library for assistance in finding Narcsite. She’s had legal problems with a neighbor following her messy divorce, and didn’t understand that some material (like narc in court) is for purchase but much is free, but if I could just get her on the site or listening to some of the recordings, I know it would start allaying the panic. At least she’d hear things that made her think, “Wait–that’s exactly what he said” or “that’s just what she tried to do at the courthouse.”

            Yes, there are many other sources on narcissism, but this is the first one where Ii really felt I wasn’t alone. It’s not just the blog discussions, though they are a tremendous help; it’s the fact that HG doesn’t just describe what this kind of narc does or what that kind says: he gives the actual words. There may be differences in slang on this side of the Atlantic, but I can damned well recognize when I’ve heard a speech before. I know when someone is trying to play out a script with me, has written my lines, and is indignant when I don’t play the character as the narc has cast me.

            I’d miss hearing the latest shenanigans of ‘Arry’s Wife, or whatever twit is being a jackhole in the media, but what we get on Trump or BoJo (to use two very disparate examples) can be applied to other politicians; what we get on poor ‘Arry or Johnny Depp can be applied to other love-bombing casualties, including literal casualties such as Gabby Petito.

            I’m likely to go first, but until I do, I’m referring both friends and complete strangers on other sites to HG’s work.

            And contrary to Pete Slapper, it’s fine with me if he looks like Quasimodo and sounds like Gilbert Gottfried without the technology.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Well stated.

          3. WhoCares says:


            “The wordplay, snotty comments, references to music and the arts make HG’s work far more resonant and accessible to many people than a thousand preachy advice manuals.”

            So true.

          4. njfilly says:

            Hi Viol:

            My comment was somewhat vague. Let me be clear.
            I would definitely credit his work, where applicable, if I am aware it is being used. It is his work, and he deserves credit for it. However, it is not my responsibility to keep his work from being plagiarized, or to search out where it might be happening so that I can correct it. I know it will happen and I cannot stop it.
            I would also share his work and advise people to learn about narcissism, as it comes up in my life. I don’t view it as my direct responsibility that I will take over for him after his death. I have my own life and activities I want to pursue. It is not my job to further his legacy. I do view it as somewhat of a moral obligation to direct people to the truth and enable them to learn to protect themselves, however, sometimes people need to want the truth badly enough to search for it on their own, because only then are they ready to accept it. I have already referred his blog to a few people. I doubt they even read anything.
            I do not think it is ever a good idea to have only one source of information on any subject. There is no “one source of all truth” on any subject, in my opinion. Even HG Tudor. I believe he is an expert, but others have good information as well, and sometimes hearing information given to you in different words and formats is necessary. Some people can’t hear a message depending on how it is delivered.
            When we do finally hear that Hissy Fit Hannah has come back and killed HG Tudor, it will be a loss. These is no telling what other great products he would have come up with.

          5. HG Tudor says:

            There is zero chance of “Hissy Fit Hannah” doing that.

          6. njfilly says:

            Ha ha! Good.

          7. Viol. says:

            NJ filly:

            Sorry, I guess I misunderstood. I will also occasionally check out people like Vaknin or Dr. Rama whatsername, just to see what’s being said on the subject, but I rarely click more than once or twice.

            But I can understand that you don’t want to tilt at the barely-functioning windmills of Pete Slapper’s mind over plagiarism or just general bull-puckey philosophy. I discussed him here on narcsite, but I didn’t bother arguing with him on yt, nor will I chase down every wanna-be to report copyright violations. Life is too short.

            I think the watered-down quality of the clones speaks for itself, compared to the incisive original, but then, I’m approaching it as an English major.

          8. njfilly says:

            Traitor! Traitor! Burn her! Ha ha! I have also watched Vaknin and Rama, quite a while ago.

            Is Pete Slapper the guy with the youtube channel who made some videos about HG Tudor? I watched one because it came up on my feed and I was curious. I had never heard of him before. He made derogatory comments about followers of HG Tudor and said it is a cult, and how stupid we are, we are being used, blah blah blah.

            Honestly, I do like to hear both sides of a story. I have my own opinions mostly, but I often think, maybe I am missing something. Specifically, if I form an opinion immediately upon hearing about something and I can’t understand how anybody could view it any other way, I will seek out those opposing opinions because I always wonder; why do they view this differently? How could anybody possibly be against this? I always learn something new and sometimes my mind is changed or at the very least, I can see important points made on the other side. So before I have made up my mind about something, or even if I have, I will listen to what they have to say to see if there is any validity from my perspective. In this case, there was not. He is jealous (or would that be envious?)

            He has several videos related to HG Tudor. Maybe you already know that. I thought; how strange that your channel is based upon bashing another person’s channel seemingly, for the most part. He had videos unrelated to HG Tudor but I had no interest in watching them. Then I read some comments and there were people praising him for his bashing of HG Tudor followers, and also saying how they learned so much from him, but I lost patience and didn’t want to watch any more, so I don’t know what they learned.

            Soon HG Tudor material will dominate the airwaves related to narcissism and become recognizable to everybody.

          9. HG Tudor says:

            He took the videos down because he got no reaction from me (something he is so desperate for) and because of the many comments from educated readers and viewers pointing out how wrong he is and also exposing him for what he is.

          10. Asp Emp says:

            HG, good to read that Slapper has retreated. Woo hoo! 🙂

          11. Asp Emp says:

            njfilly, interesting to read your views 🙂 I would agree with you – it is envy that is probably the driving factor. I read one those videos and I considered that Slapper was just a fkg twat. As for Sam Fucknintwat and Ramananatwat, I ignore their videos too. Why waste any of my data and clogging the bandwidth with their shite?

            These people have no right to piggy-back on and take credit by using (effectively, abusing) HG’s work. The recognition should go to the person who did the work and that is, HG.

            RE: your last sentence, I agree 🙂

          12. Viol. says:

            NJ filly:

            Slapper isn’t worth the bandwidth to give an argument. I use mine to respond to reader comments about Amber’s latest actionable actions. You post that Johnny should sue again? Nope, that’s exactly what she wants: more Fuel. Why is she sticking to her story when she must realize everyone heard her contradictory statements and recordings in court? Compartmentalization and living in the moment. Johnny shouldn’t let her get away with trashing him again? He’s exposed her for what she is, largely re-established his reputation and his career, and she has no money to be sued for. The media outlet publishing her remarks would have money worth a lawsuit, but he might end up back in a courtroom with her, and he needs to go and stay No Contact. And of course I recommend they find HG’s extensive analysis of the case on narcsite and YT.

            I’m not going to bother explaining why their favorite “expert” isn’t as good as HG. I refer them to his material and it’s up to them. If they’re willing to learn, they will learn.

    4. Witch says:

      @Narc Angel

      Totally agree with what you’re saying
      But I can’t help but feel sad to this day over Chester Bennington’s suicide because hybrid theory and meteora got a lot of depressed teenagers through it
      “Crawling in my skin, these wounds they will not heal”
      RIP Chester

      1. lickemtomorrow says:

        This may seem odd, but Chester Bennington came to my mind, too, and one of the reasons was the poignancy of the manner of his death – suicide – coupled with the official music video of “One More Light” … he sang to the pain, but couldn’t defeat it. “Who cares? … Well, I do” RIP.

    5. Joa says:

      This is an excellent statement. I agree with every sentence.


      When it comes to the Deep series and the society moods accompanying this embarrassing and irrelevant court case, as well as the Meghan series – I just want to add, that it scares me how easy it is to steer emotions and people.
      I wrote comments on this twice, as there is one thing that is tugging my inner chord quite a bit, but I have removed it and I try not to notice. I chew on my disappointment and move on. The less attention the better.

    6. Another Cat says:

      In most cases I feel like you do, NA, when famous artists are passing.

      Though when it’s people like this, who seem kind and a bit in the shadow of their band or group, I can’t help feeling a little bit of a loss of a dream of a gentle world.

      Or when it was a kind and generously individual who got broken down by life. Very shy, keeping away from the spotlight, but still greeting people who are passning them by. Living a bit in the shadow the last decades. I’m thinking of Peter Green, the guitarist who passed away two years ago.

      I think I would feel something if Keanu would pass away, for a similar reason.

      The same goes for my aquaintances irl where I feel most for people who were both kind, careful and shy.

      1. Another Cat says:

        Let me explain: When people used to mention Depeche Mode to me, Andy Fletcher was the last name to be mentioned, often forgotten. It came after Dave Gahan, Martin Gore, Vince J Clark etc. Big personalities, adorned, often having a beef, dramatic.

        He was probably the more silent one, and kind one.

        1. Sweetest Perfection says:

          Vince Clark! Blasphemy. That name is not pronounced in my house. You left Alan Wilder behind, he did have much more presence and influence on the band than that treacherous snake 😆I agree with you, AC. He was the one that passed by inadvertently. Also because the keys were usually placed in the background and, unlike holding a guitar or a bass, they don’t allow for much movement across the stage… but he seemed like a nice, calm person, unlike the mega stars Dave and Martin.

    7. Contagious says:

      Michael Jackson comes to mind. I love his talent but would I have allowed my son a sleepover to snuggle, “no.”

  7. Witch says:

    So if I want revenge on a familial narcissist… I need to die as dramatically as possible so that people will continue to talk about me for years to come which will wound the narcissist?

    1. Truthseeker6157 says:

      Do it on reality TV, double whammy haha!

    2. Asp Emp says:

      Witch, how about considering having ‘HG Mauls Your Narcissist!’ done as part of your revenge? You can have that accidentally playing as you attend a future family gathering? If this particular familial narcissist is not dead…..they won’t know it is about them. It is such a bad idea but consider it as thought fuel 🙂

      1. Witch says:

        If I plan it right I could pay for HG to pull up at the funeral and recite it in person and name names

    3. NarcAngel says:

      Haha, at the very least manage to tie it somehow to the narc so that your name is always mentioned with theirs as an exasperating ever presence of your own.

  8. Sweetest Perfection says:

    I, on the contrary, was very saddened. I didn’t know Fletcher. Of course I have seen him in concerts, but never had a chance to have a drink with the band. I am not exactly sad for the loss of the person but I guess it’s for the loss of a very wonderful part of my life. Call it nostalgia, mid-life crisis, fear of not being able to watch a Depeche Mode concert ever again… it saddens me. Maybe they should call Alan back. I did mourn him and my friends and I had a special music session. It was beautiful and we laughed at the same time. Of course there was the expected selection (I know, what a bad trope): “Death’s Door,” “I Sometimes Wish I Was Dead,” “New Life,” “See You …” Mourning does not necessarily mean sobbing. You can turn it into a special moment of union and joy, as was the case. RIP, Fletch.

  9. Joa says:

    So when it comes to death, I am very much like Narcissus.

    I don’t feel sad. I don’t understand, how people can feel sad about someone they didn’t know. I don’t understand, why would I express my condolences to someone, who wasn’t really connected to the deceased? It’s like artificially “lifting” someone with someone else’s death. This practice irritates me.


    I feel a loss, when a loved one leaves. He comforts me, when I think about how he lived, how he smiled, about the good things he managed to do for people, animals and the world. About the wise things he taught me with which, he inspired me. I miss this person sometimes.

    If I am crying, it is because of what I could and did not do to that person (my negligence). I cry that another phase, some part of MY life has ended… – with this person.

    I am glad, if the deceased had a successful life, if there were moments of rapprochement and real conversations between us, I appreciate it. I am glad, if death was easy and natural for the deceased.

    I don’t want people to die and go away, although it’s inevitable.


    In general:

    DEATH – I accept this fact.


    In this particular case, I am sad for a moment when I think about what the relatives of the deceased feel. I would sincerely express my condolences if I knew them.

    It’s great, that he managed to leave behind music that many people use and draw from! 🙂


    I feel the pain of parents, when their children die. Huge.

    Children should not die. This is untapped potential. Wrong order.


    HG, thank you for this video. Your words prompted me to ground (once again!) my thoughts. This removed the discomfort, that I felt that I wasn’t lamenting like the others.

    Death is a natural part of life.

    1. Joa says:

      At this point, I have to add one more thing.

      Once upon a time, in the period of greatest pain, I had thought many times, that if N2 had died, it would have been much easier for me. I could keep him “in myself” at the stage, where I wanted to remember him. I could idealize him the way I want. And it would be easier for me to tell my child, that he left because he died, than to let her slowly understand, that he left because he did not feel the need to meet her and accompany her on her way of life.

      It is a pity, that he did not know how to intertwine with her path at least a little. He had a few traits, that I liked. Pity.

    2. Contagious says:

      I have gunk it’s an opportunity. How lucky were we to have known them? Loved and have been loved by them? To be given a chance to share their lives!

      1. Contagious says:

        Oh my spell check “ thought” not gunk. Aye

  10. A Victor says:

    I loved this video. It confirmed what I suspected and really brought home the idea of zero emotional empathy. It’s still a concept that is a mystery in a way, because having it there is no way to experience not having it, obviously. So this means we can only hear it in your voice, hear it in the words and then must almost making a decision to believe it. But not hearing the tone or the words it is easy to think, “Aww, he must be a little sad”, but you’re not. It’s kind of mind boggling. But good to know.

  11. lickemtomorrow says:

    Thank you for that explanation, HG, around this high profile death.

    I’m fascinated with the notion of you getting irritated when somebody dies. It’s the last thing most people would imagine, but there we have it. If you could put it into words – take away the filters – I wonder what you would say?

    This, of course, lends itself to the notion of the ignition of fury you can also experience at the loss of an IPPS. Moving through the importance of relationships it’s not difficult to see how a minor irritation can become the full blown ignition of your fury. You have lost control over that appliance and your fuel supply is now threatened. An existential crisis looms. I wonder is that a moment where you take yourself away and how that ignition of fury might manifest. Surely destruction would lay in its wake. Anger at death. Anger at the lack of control. Anger at the injustice of it all.

    “Just Can’t Get Enough” is the Depeche Mode song I know the best and takes me back to ‘first love’ days 🙂 Any sadness on my part would come from knowing those days are long gone now, but the sadness can be tempered with good memories. Bittersweet describes it best <3

    1. Leigh says:

      LET, have you read or listened to “The Three that Got Away”? I think that will help you in understanding what Mr. Tudor experiences when someone high in the fuel matrix dies and what he might say.

      1. lickemtomorrow says:

        Leigh, I have listened to and read “The Three that Got Away”

        I’m prompted now to listen to it again.

        What I don’t remember from that is the sense of any ignition of fury on HG’s part. I can’t go into any details here in terms of spoilers, but will review my impressions.

        That they ‘got away’ indicates there would be more than irritation and perhaps HG did not go into details of how he coped or managed the fallout in the circumstances. I’m not sure there is more than a description or delving into how they got away, as opposed to HG’s reaction to that. Irritation would partly fit the description of events.

        I will be back once I have listened again.

        1. Leigh says:

          LET, I definitely got the feeling that Mr. Tudor was irritated with regards to the three that got away. Mr. Tudor’s reaction to the Caretaker getting away, is the reason why I can’t listen to it, I can only read it. Even reading it brings out a very strong reaction in me. I know that I was irritated by his irritation. I wanted to tell him to go efff himself, lol! Maybe I surmised, but I definitely felt the irritation.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            You are correct that it caused irritation for reasons I have explained previously.

          2. lickemtomorrow says:

            Leigh, I’m laughing at you wanting to tell HG to “go efff himself” and bringing out your irritation.

            I’m still getting around to the follow up.

            I’ll be back!

          3. lickemtomorrow says:

            OK, Leigh, I promised to be back and decided to read through “The Three That Got Away” again. The sense of irritation is clearly expressed, especially with regard to the IPPS you mention, but HG has reminded us he also has secondary sources lined up, so perhaps there is never a time he would experience the full ignition of his fury even after an appliance ‘escapes’.

            This is the element I’ve got hung up on in a sense. Someone dies. If I don’t see grief, then I would hope to see fury. At least you would know the loss meant something!

            How would that rage appear? Considering that attachment doesn’t occur, would it mean a frenzy of attempts to secure the next IPPS? Would it mean withdrawal as a means of taking back control? Would it mean a destructive dervish of any reminders and things belonging to the lost IPPS? It would not mean tears. It would not mean melancholy.

            Yes, I see the irritation. No mention of the aftermath, though.

            I want to know what happened in the aftermath.

          4. Leigh says:

            Hi LET, I’m just surmising here but I don’t think Mr. Tudor or any narcissist for that matter, experiences an aftermath after an appliance’s death, unless it serves their purpose. I think they forget about them and move on unless they can use the death as way to meet the prime aims. For instance, Mr. Tudor installs a new IPPS. Lets say they challenge him. He may then use the death of the former IPPS to triangulate as part of a corrective devaluation.

            Now, what about my husband? What would he do if I died? He would use my death as a means to meet the prime aims. If that meant the use of tears or rage to secure the prime aims, then that would be what he would use.

            The loss does mean something. It means they lost their primary source of the prime aims. Any show of grief or rage because of the loss isn’t because they are sorry someone died, its to be able to gather fuel from the sources that are still around.

            At least, that’s how I see it.

          5. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hi Leigh,

            I was focused on something HG has said previously, that loss of an IPPS or similar could lead to an ignition of fury. This conversation may have been had in the KHG forum. He specifically mentions this in one of his books or articles, so in that sense I’m basing it on what HG himself has already said. The loss amounts to a wounding, and the wounding must be healed or recovered. One way that happens is with the ignition of fury.

            Fury, I imagine, creates an immense sense of power. That power would translate into an ability to overcome the wounding. I don’t know how it would be acted out, but I do know you would not want to be there when it is.

            HG reposted “Delivered by God” yesterday and that is an example of ignited fury.

            It is hard to imagine a death as an occasion for this ignition, but an unexpected death would potentially be perceived by the narcissist as a massive wounding. In that moment, the narcissist has lost control. If we think about this being HG’s legacy, the reason for that is for HG to have an element of control over his own demise. He will have left something behind and asserted control through doing that, which means he will be remembered and death will not have the final word. He will still exist even if he no longer exists. Take that death, in other words! Victory over death. HG sees it one way, I see it another way, but victory is the aim.

            If an SO dies, they are robbing HG of his much needed fuel. That is a travesty in his mind. They are supposed to be available and keep supplying him with his needs.

            I’ve no doubt what you say is also true, Leigh. There will be a swift reliance on other fuel sources and the use of the former IPPS’s demise for further fuel gathering. Or, as you say, for the purposes of triangulation. The narcissist will utilise the death, but first they must deal with the wounding it creates.

            It’s my guess your husband will be angry when you die because he no longer has you to rely on and has to find someone else to fulfill his prime aims. You will have created an inconvenience for him and that’s likely the level of his grief in the circumstances. It’s a horrible thought that enters our minds when we understand the narcissist better. Imagine, an old appliance breaks down before you’ve had the chance to install a new one. The narcissist is likely to give that old appliance a kick, or hammer it, or throw it viciously onto the pile of all the other broken appliances. No empathy, but a whole lot of anger that the appliance is no longer doing its job.

          6. Leigh says:

            LET, I see your point now. I can say this, my husband is grandiose. He thinks he has an “in’ with God. If I died suddenly, he would be angry and my guess is that one of the first things out of his mouth would be, “How dare God do this to me.” I’m not even kidding. Yes death amounts to a huge wounding because its the ultimate escape. I also agree that would trigger an ignition of fury. I would think that fury would be immediate. Yes, I agree fury can be hot or cold. With cold fury maybe that’s instance where we see the Incredible Sulk or withdrawal, like you suggest. This way they get attention from others and that helps them assuage the wounding. Heated fury might be breaking of furniture or punching a wall. So yes I can see the immediate aftermath being fury and then a need to squash that fury. To onlookers, it will look like the acting out is because they’re grief stricken, but sadly its not.

            I was thinking further along after the initial shock. My guess is the death of an appliance would be used as often as possible in order to secure the prime aims from others in the matrix.

            I had to laugh. The idea of inconveniencing my husband actually made me happy for a moment, lol.

          7. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hi Leigh, yes, I agree with your thinking about further along from the demise of the IPPS.

            I also had to laugh at you laughing at the idea of inconveniencing your husband 😛 I’m glad I could make you happy for just one moment with the thought of him raging at your death. You have to get something out of all the years you’ve put up with him, it’s either that or divorce. Divorce, of course, is less deadly so there may yet be a day you’ll be truly happy in this life 🙂

          8. Leigh says:

            LET, of course I know you’re right. I never say never. Divorce is always an option.

          9. Patricia Nick says:

            Interesting. I’ve read The Three That Got Away, but clearly I now need to get the audio version. (Luckily there’s the reduced prices at the moment, so I can indulge!)

          10. Joa says:

            I think I wrote this somewhere.

            My friend’s father, after the death of his IPPS, found a new IPPS at the funeral. Two weeks later, the new IPPS was already installed in his home. It was the cousin of the woman who died.

          11. Leigh says:

            Yes, I remember. I had asked a question if it was a red flag if a widower, who had only lost his wife two months prior, started dating already. And you replied. Nasty little narcissists, lol!

  12. Leigh says:

    Mr. Tudor, I had a sneaking suspicion that you felt nothing in regards to the passing of Andrew Fletcher. Thank you for using this death as a teachable moment to show us how other narcissists would use this death to get fuel & how you used it to receive fuel as well.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You’re welcome.

  13. Rebecca says:

    I thought about asking you how you felt about Andrew Fletcher dying,but then I thought it wouldn’t bother you, unless it interfered with their concerts or their music, then you might get pissed about it. I listen to your video and I was right in my thinking. I still want to say, I’m sorry for your loss, eventhough I know you don’t feel that way…the response is still there. I’m sorry for your loss, I hope they will continue touring and making music. I enjoy their music too.

    I remember the LMR I knew and he was talking to me about the death of a celebrity he knew from the music he liked and he said, I remember when she was the IT girl on White Snake videos and she died recently. What a shame, oh well. He was very unbothered by it and just said it in passing, like he could careless. I guess that was the Lower in him to his Midrange. Sometimes the facade would fall and it was noticeable to me. I wish I could forget the things he said, I just use them as observation tools and compare behaviors to other people. I might as well make use of my ability of recalling what people say to me. My husband calls me a walking voice recorder. It sucks sometimes remembering conversations, especially when I’d rather forget knowing that person. Selective memory loss would be great.

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