Does Harry See The Lies? Understanding the Mindset of the Victim of a Narcissist

291 thoughts on “Does Harry See The Lies? Understanding the Mindset of the Victim of a Narcissist

  1. Bubbles says:

    Dear Mr Tudor,
    Harry’s HRH title takes on a whole new meaning now

    His Royal ‘High’ ness 🍄❄️💊💉😵‍💫

    What an idiot!


  2. WiserNow says:

    To AV and LET,
    Congratulations to you on your new grandchildren. A new baby is an exciting time. Best wishes to you both.

    1. lickemtomorrow says:

      Thank you, WiserNow. I appreciate your good wishes 🙂

    2. A Victor says:

      Thank you WiserNow!

    3. JB says:

      Just seen this..congratulations LET and AV, that’s fantastic news! Lots of love xx

      1. lickemtomorrow says:

        Thanks, JB. Much appreciated 🙂

      2. A Victor says:

        Thank you JB! Got to meet the little one last night, so much fun!

        1. JB says:


          Aww!! 🥰

  3. Asp Emp says:

    Congratulations on the new additions to your families LEY & AV 🙂

    1. lickemtomorrow says:

      Thank you, AspEmp 🙂

      You may be aware the new father is also the Aspie addition to our family <3

      He loves to research and have all the facts to hand, especially before making a decision. Need a TENS machine (for pain relief)? We've only got a few hours before heading to the hospital. There's one locally which can be hired that's more expensive, but you can have it for longer, there's cheaper ones that can be bought privately and can be resold later (good business instincts), and there's an even cheaper one you can buy, but the cost of petrol might negate any savings as it's further to go to get it. I'm watching all these machinations in the lead up to the trip to the hospital and smiling inwardly as we navigate the treacherous waters of childbirth and delivery.

      He did a great job during labour and delivery, they both did, and was a little overwhelmed at the end of it all – probably partially due to lack of sleep and partly because they were finally seeing the end result of all the waiting. The sense of relief is real. Maybe HG would call those tears of relief. I probably shed tears of joy. What a miracle <3

      My son decided to share some thoughts with her elder sister and I which he'd heard shared on a podcast by another guy who attended the labour and delivery of his baby. It went something like this:

      "Imagine your favourite pub. Now imagine it burning down in front of your eyes."

      We both laughed at a guy's take on things. It wasn't too hard to imagine.

      Her older sister and I both agreed that the new father taking things very literally as an Aspie needs to be considered as well. There was discussion around breastfeeding, and the concern that any advice being given will cause him to latch on (pardon the pun) to the information in a black and white fashion where all these things require a level of flexibility in terms of the thinking around them. We will have to wait and see, but so far I think he accepts my daughter is in charge of the ultimate decision making around anything affecting her.

      It's a whole new world and I'm looking forward to seeing how they negotiate it <3 xox

      1. Asp Emp says:

        LET , hello 🙂 Yes, that sounds about right – the analytical, lateral researching skills and sometimes, procrastinate decision making but they do get there eventually 🙂 Aspies do and can consider other people, their needs etc, they do not have a need to manipulate or control other people. Congratulations again 🙂 xx

    2. A Victor says:

      Thank you Asp Emp. 👶

  4. lickemtomorrow says:


    1. I had written a very personal comment before this system swallowed it whole 😛

      Guess it wasn’t meant to be shared.

  5. annaamel says:

    I will also say to the parents on here – it’s incredibly hard to be a parent and very hard to get it right all of the time. I love the comments about doing your best, thinking about how you can help your children navigate the world with whatever personality they have to do the most good for others and cause the least harm. As someone who doesn’t feel that normal I sometimes struggle to know the best advice and so with my own child I try to equip by trying to get her to consider other peoples’ perspectives and to then trust her own judgement as to the best way forward because I think that sometimes (and in some ways) she might be better at working that out than me. All of you here sound like wonderful parents and any children would be fortunate to have you.

    1. A Victor says:

      Annaamel, thank you for your encouraging words.

      1. A Victor says:

        And back atcha also! 🙂

  6. annaamel says:

    I can only give my opinion here but I see empathy as being there (or less there) from birth. I think it’s wired into the brain through a combination of genetics and how the brain forms in utero (recognising that environment can have an impact as the genes give their instructions to form the person). I believe that people are born with a particular capacity for empathy which is greater in some individuals than others and from then on their developing empathy will be affected by both nature and nurture. I think if they are burn with low capacity for empathy then it will be very hard if not impossible for them to develop it (though they can learn what it means and if able can work out how to show empathy to others). I also think those born with a high capacity for empathy will develop it even in an environment which is difficult although the way their empathy develops might be impacted.

    I got a super empath classification likely because suggested I stick my nose into other people business without invitation and without concern it will bother people and as far as I can tell I didn’t have narcissistic parents and wasn’t abused (although the power dynamic between my parents was uneven and this bothered me a lot and I think may have contributed to my character) however I was extremely and uncomfortably empathic as a child and I recall my parents commenting on it and predicting even I’d become upset. But I’m not great at sympathising with people I live with – I think I find knowing people too well reduces my empathy because I feel annoyed at them! But for people I don’t know I feel loads of sympathy and have always felt it to the same degree and in the same (very close and visceral) way.

    1. Contagious says:

      I agree with you. There is some genetic capacity there. I am not a super but 10% it seems we all want to be;) Fly!

    2. WiserNow says:


      Your comment reminds me of the saying, “I love humanity, it’s people I can’t stand.”

      I can relate to your thoughts about having empathy for people you don’t know and feeling annoyed at people you know well. I think this is heightened for me because of having high sensitivity (or in other words, heightened emotional reactivity). It’s also something I can relate to with regard to the super empath classification.

      There is a passage in one of Fyodor Dostoyevsky’s books, ‘The Brothers Karamazov’ (written in 1879), that describes the contradictory saying. The passage is spoken by a character in the book called Alyosha as follows:

      “I love humanity . . . but I can’t help being surprised at myself: the more I love humanity in general, the less I love men in particular, I mean, separately, as separate individuals. In my dreams . . . I am very often passionately determined to save humanity, and I might quite likely have sacrificed my life for my fellow-creatures, if for some reason it has been suddenly demanded of me, and yet I’m quite incapable of living with anyone in one room for two days together, and I know that from experience. As soon as anyone comes close to me, his personality begins to oppress my vanity and restrict my freedom. I’m capable of hating the best men in twenty-four hours: one because he sits too long over his dinner, another because he has a cold in the head and keeps blowing his nose. But, on the other hand, it invariably happened that the more I hated men individually, the more ardent became my love for humanity at large.”

      The passage from ‘The Brothers Karamazov’ is described in an article titled ‘I love humanity, it’s people I can’t stand’ written by Rozali Telbis in October, 2020. The piece is on a website called It’s an interesting article that discusses the origins of the quote. It also looks at the reasons behind the contradiction. It contrasts the way individuals each have their idiosyncrasies, quirks, personalities and egos, while ‘humanity’ removes all of those idiosyncrasies and is an abstract. The article says that humanity provides a collective sense of self and represents a societal ideal.

  7. Isabelle says:

    Hi Leigh!
    I hope you are well.
    I hear you. I have the same questions about my own daughter. Her father was a narc, and so were her grandmother and probably grandfather (my parents). She never met her father’s parents as they had died long before her birth. But what could I have done to be a better intervener, and how come the other empathic people she knew were not enough either? Like her greatgrandmother, my best friend, some other friends of mine too, most of her teachers? Too late now, but I wish I could understand why none of us was not enough.
    I hope you have found a way of keeping a relationship with your daughter which does not do you harm. I think I have, with HG’s help and advice.

    1. Leigh says:

      Hi Isabelle,
      I think of you often. Thank you for reaching out. I have come to peace with it. There’s nothing I can do to remove the narcissism. What I do instead is allow her to acquire my character traits. My hope is she acquires enough of them to at least have some cognitive empathy. I’m painted white right now so things are ok. There are times I’m painted black though and when that happens, I just try to work through them.

      Thank you so much for your support.

  8. A Victor says:

    Hi FYC, I agree that there must be some trauma and that it leaves a lack of self esteem which they then seek to fill through seeking to fill that “dark hole that is the narcissist”. Their own self esteem issues make it particularly difficult for the CoD to extricate themselves from ensnarement and to not become ensnared repeatedly. What i find interesting about this is how thoroughly my daughter would deny this, would not be able to see herself having self esteem issues. And it’s difficult for me to see them in her also. But, her career is one of serving people, in the medical field, and she does derive self esteem from what she does. She had wanted to work in this field since anyone can remember and while others burn out around her, she just keeps going happily along. So is this what the trauma can produce? Or was she born this way? I have no idea. She did have trauma in her young life, having my ex and I for parents. I agree, she will do fine as a parent, it is exciting to see how each does it in their own way, in their own little family. I am working on the letting her know to love herself part, and making sure she knows I do also. I think that is where the self esteem issues show themselves, trusting that others do love her sometimes.

    Thank you for pointing out the obvious also, as I often miss it! That empaths also have cognitive empathy! Of course we do! I just hadn’t thought about it.

    1. FYC says:

      Hi A Victor, My feeling is that CoDs are unconsciously CoD. They were groomed and shaped to become CoD via positive and negative intermittent reinforcement (very powerful and the genesis of addiction. They are defined by how they serve the N, not for their own inherent traits or contribution to their own goals. The N creates the perception they are never enough, yet repeatedly applies the intermittent reinforcement to keep them trying to please/heal/fix the Ns victim stance.

      Trauma of long-term emotional abuse and/or physical provides further evidence they are not worthy. Children experience the universe from a point of self and feel responsible for whatever is going on with the parent as their “fault”. They try to cope and gain self worth by pleasing, healing, fixing, caring, anticipating, fulfilling, etc. Their desire to help is something they deeply value because when they were young, this is how they coped with the N and it was likely the only way they could *feel* valued. Ns are perfect partners for their “dance”. The E yin to the N yang. Until they aren’t. As determined by the N. Then they chase (consciously and unconsciously) what they believed was once within reach. It is a repetitive cycle because they feel if they can finally succeed and heal the N all will be well in life. This cycle is what they know. It is familiar. And the carrot is ever present. Even when they know it will not work, it is very difficult for a CoD to walk away because their worth is tied up in staying to benefit the N.

      Healthy self esteem/self love is often misunderstood. It is not an intellectual positive opinion of one’s traits and abilities (though positive recognition of self is a part), it is the recognition of inherent worth and value in themselves and honoring that person.

      N traits in the CoD, may be borrowed from the N or employed to please the N. Or adopted from the N since they were reinforced. I doubt these traits bring positive self esteem however, as CoDs suffer and recognize shame, versus the Ns denial and repression of shame. Mirroring N traits may have been adopted as a means of coping as well. It’s complicated. HG has delineated the spectrum of empathy as follows (HG please correct me if I have misunderstood):

      + Empathy < Contagion <CoD <Super <Standard Narcissistic> Narcissist> APD> Lack of Empathy –

      Coping mechanisms are very hard to change because they become part of the brain’s “super highway” of neural pathways. A “go to” behavior if you will. It is developed over time as a means of survival in an environment that did not afford a different path for that persons temperament or conditions.

      If you tell your daughter she is wonderful exactly as she is, without any pleasing/healing/fixing she is likely to not understand your point. It is so hard for anyone to see themself from a different perspective, yet that is the very thing required for change.

      1. A Victor says:

        Wow FYC, very interesting. I need some time to sort through all this. But thank you!

        I do buck against “long term trauma” in her life, isn’t that crazy? That’s my cognitive dissonance coming out! In my dream world, I protected them from him, ugh. Of course she had that, trauma, and I have no clue how she related to him, her dad, inside herself, her thinking and so on. Thank you for this.

        I absolutely agree that CoD’s are CoD unconsciously and I have understood that telling her is not enough, that it needs to be her seeing herself from a different perspective. What’s hard about that is that I have to work myself on keeping my own self value up all the time, so it’s like the injured trying to help the injured. And because her qualities are ones that make her feel valued, how to get to her intrinsic value, beyond those things, I have yet to figure that out.

        You are correct, she feels badly when her narc traits come out, she’s also majority geyser but has learned to moderate that quite a bit since doing the EDC, it was like a light switch almost. HG was able to show her through that consult some things that really helped her. I wished she would do some more with him but she became resistant. Maybe at some point when she’s ready.

        One thing that helps the process is that my kids all see that I am writing very hard at becoming who i really am, someone I think they’ve believed me to be all along, I just didn’t see it. And they know that we’ve all been hurt so have been willing to look at that and try to help, there is that and I believe it is very helpful to the process.

        Thank you for your input FYC, a lot for me to consider.

        1. FYC says:

          Hello A Victor,

          I have no doubt you did everything in your power to protect your children. That said, their perception and experience is their own. I agree it is very hard to help a CoD heal and change. Their neural pathways are very well traveled and the rewards they feel for what they do for another are so great that it is almost like an addiction. I say this because it seems the effects of their “success” is ephemeral and they need another “hit” to replenish self-worth.

          The only way I have found any influence to have a lasting effect (I have a familial CoD and a friend who is CoD) is to help shift perspective and to acknowledge their inherent value as it is expressed. Not for what they do, but for who they are inherently and how it makes you feel and how much that means to you.

          I am not convinced there is are specific N traits in CoD people, though we are all narcissistic to one degree or another. What I see in CoD is that in the process of giving up themselves to love/please/help/fix another they take on the traits of the other. I have no evidence of this, just an observation.

          1. A Victor says:

            Thank you for your reply FYC, yes, I forget about the “rewards” people get for various things. It would be almost like an addiction, if not one. Something to consider in trying to “help” them.

            I agree, the inherent value piece is what’s important, very difficult for them to hear however. Difficult for me even, and I’m not CoD.

            HG has said their N traits are spiky (high) and sporadic (not all of them, done may be missing entirely), that’s why I believe this, it at least that is what he’s typically seen. Don’t remember where he said it, maybe in the videos about the Tinder Swindler. He could be wrong of course but I will go with that until he says differently. I see it in my daughter, she has some strong but then does feel regret later.

            Thank you for your input, always interesting and often a new slant on things, from a scientific perspective, I really appreciate that.

          2. FYC says:

            Hi A Victor, I understand, but think of inherent value this way: you love your child unconditionally for who they are, they need not do anything to be loved (hopefully). The same is true for pets. Their value need not be taught or believed, it simply is evident to us for many reasons. The same is true for all. There is inherent value in everyone. We have so much to offer. In a true sense, we are a gift to one another. Every life.

          3. A Victor says:

            Hi FYC, the mind can think it, the eyes can read it, the ears hear it, the lips even say it but there comes a point where it must be a leap of faith into a decision to believe it. I don’t feel it even as I understand it, on some level, to be true. I never have. I have tried to understand it more fully, my love for my children, why it’s any different than care and concern for any person. It is, but I worry about this sometimes, would I have to lose one to really grasp it? So then trying to help my daughter understand, it is words, and I hope she can hear them. My children are in a much better place than I was at their ages, all of them. I am thankful for that. Thank you again for your comments FYC.

          4. FYC says:

            Hi AV, I hear you and I do understand. Perhaps value can only exist in the beholder whether that be of self or other. I will close by saying you have inherent value in my eyes, and I am glad you are active on KTN. Take care, AV.

          5. A Victor says:

            I hope not to have worn you out, thank you so much for your input. You have given me much to consider, not the least of which is how to come to know it for myself and pass it on to my children, if it is possible. Thank you again and I am glad you’re active here also!

          6. FYC says:

            Hi AV, No, I’ve been “worn out” for a while haha. But I try to add value here when I can out of gratitude. I’m pleased you found some of my comments as useful for you. I appreciate your comments as well, thank you.

      2. annaamel says:

        I agree with much in this post FYC – especially about the power of reinforcement.
        I think I see it a bit differently though – but I also may me incorrect. I’d put it as

        Codependent, super, standard, normal, narcissistic, narcissist, psychopath.

        (with + for more empathy for non family and friends)

        I’ve distinguished between psychopath and narcissist because I kind of think one lacks it altogether while one has lost the option to feel it. As to contagions (and I have it) I don’t know if they feel more empathy or if they just feel it in a different way. I am not sure why I feel more empathy for people (even strangers) but I recognise I feel it in a particular way.

        1. annaamel says:

          *I meant to write: I think I see the spectrum a little bit differently… (and also may be incorrect)

          1. FYC says:

            Hi Annaamel,
            You would be correct that APD (umbrella term for psychopaths, sociopaths, antisocial personalities) also lack empathy. However, I left it out of the continuum because it is a different condition altogether, not just a darker shade of narcissism. APD involves neurological differences from Ns, as well as experiential/behavioral differences (such as lack of fear). A person can have both narcissism and APD or only one condition. A further area of study on the differences between N and APD involves the true/false self.

          2. annaamel says:

            Hi FYC.

            You did have APD in your spectrum. I called it psychopathy but i think we see it the same way and I agree with your explanation re: APD.

            Where I differed from you was really at the empath end. I put Cod as having the most empathy then super then standard (and I didn’t know where to put contagion because it seemed to be a quality rather than quantity issue.) AV was different again, and while she put Cod at the end she had contagion as second highest and had standard as having higher levels of empathy than super.

            We seem to see the schools in slightly different ways regarding their capacity for empathy.

          3. A Victor says:

            Hi Annaamel, I think my spectrum was focused on a couple of different aspects of it than just the empathy. I was thinking more of the ratios, hence putting Supers closest to normals with their high empathy and high narc traits. Standards, with moderate-ish on both, give or take. Contagion I’m less sure about but I think they are similar to Standards in amounts but because they are affected more immediately they are further from Normals? And with the CoD’s at the furthest edge because, though they can have super high empathy, their N traits are all over the place and will often even be missing some completely.

            The other piece that figured in to my arrangement of them is the unique way each responds, the Super again being the closest to the Normals in their self protectiveness, drawing a line and the fighting back or walking away, Standards more gradually going downhill but having the ability to make change when necessary, the Contagion seemingly unable to self protect except to get away, and the CoD literally giving up their own well being for the narcissist.

            If we look at it strictly from the amount of empathy, then I would say Supers and CoD could be similar, Contagion probably next and Standards least?

            If we looked at it from N traits specifically, Supers in number and amount, CoD in amount but not number, Contain and Standard similar?

            So many variables, really fun to consider! Thank you, and also FYC, for this discussion.

          4. FYC says:

            Hi Annaamel,
            Im laughing at myself because you are correct. I forgot I did include it, I thought I had left it off. As for the empathy spectrum, I agree with HG’s origin model. I do think you are correct regarding contagion as described here:
            I had recalled an old comment on the degrees of empathy, but I have not been able to locate it, so I may have it wrong. My apologies.

          5. A Victor says:

            FYC, was HG’s original model the one spectrum as you wrote it previously? Did he change from the original? There is some info regarding degrees of empathy in the Super Empath article. And in there it does look to me like I was wrong on the order, it looks to me in the article like it’s Normal, Standard, Super, CoD with no mention of Contagion. Because Normals and Standards are more moderate in empathy and Supers and CoD’s higher. Interesting stuff, thanks again for your thoughts on it.

          6. Leigh says:

            Hi AV, I remember Mr. Tudor talking about the spectrum too.

            The way I understand it is that the spectrum is based on what drives a person. A narcissist is driven by narc traits because he has no empathic traits. A normal may be driven by either narc or empathic traits. Supers are driven by empathic traits but they draw a line in the sand and tap into their narc traits quicker than Standards and CoDs. Since CoDs and Standards have lower narc traits, it takes longer and its harder for them to tap into them.

            I feel like Super might be closer to normal because they have higher narc traits. I’ll do some digging today and see if I can find anything.

          7. FYC says:

            Hi AV, To the best of my recollection, HG’s Four schools of empath were:

            Standard> Super> CoD> Contagion

            They also appear on the Empath Detector results. Every empath has very significant empathy. I recall that school represents a progression to greater empathy. I was away from the blog for quite some time and missed a lot. If HG changed his model for some reason, can you please direct me to that post? I was not able to locate it via KTN or google. Thank you in advance.

          8. A Victor says:

            Hi GYC, no, I’m not aware that HG had changed anything, I just remembered it wrong. Thank you again!

        2. A Victor says:

          Hi Annaamel, I understand the spectrum a bit differently from both of you:

          Codependent, Contagion, Standard, Super, Normal, Narcissistic, Narcissist and I like your separate addition of Psychopath and your logic behind it.

          I also agree with your thinking that Contagions don’t necessarily feel more empathy than others but that it is felt in a unique way, more visceral from what I understand, I don’t have any. But I have seen that written here before and have wondered about it, wondered if it is possibly true. How could it even be measured. I don’t know that empaths “feel” more than normals for example, I think normals process and act on it differently though. But, like both you and FYC said, I am very likely incorrect. And if so, I would love to know what is correct.

          1. Leigh says:

            Hi AV, I only have a small percentage of Contagion but this is how I feel it. For me, if someone is feeling a heightened emotion and I’m in direct contact with them, I can feel what they are feeling. This doesn’t happen to me all the time so I don’t think I have more empathy, necessarily. But when it does happen. I can feel what they are feeling and I automatically empathize with them. I’m automatically put into their shoes.

            I don’t know if we feel more than normals. Most days I’m numb so I don’t feel much at all. But I think as empaths we have more empathy than normals.

          2. A Victor says:

            Hi Leigh, that is interesting about your Contagion experience. I don’t have that at all. I’m often baffled by what other people tell me their feeling, because I’m numb much of the time also. Feelings are tiring and though I’ve come to appreciate them, it’s okay that they’re not there all the time.

          3. Leigh says:

            Hi AV, I agree 100%. Feelings are tiring and I’m ok with them not being there all the time too.

          4. Contagious says:

            Victor: as a contagian empath. I agree. We don’t have more empathy BUT I feel we recognize emotions instantly and subconsciously. I have written a lot about dreams in what contagian empaths do. I feel we dream different due to our subconscious differences linked to empathy. Now I don’t believe in astrology or psychics but I had a chart done on me and I am Scorpio, Scorpio, Scorpio/Sagittarius. So I am always told I have a deep understanding of the undercurrant. Lol. But it resonates with my ability to know what a person is feeling instantly or even animals. Ok that sounds crazy but the proof is in my life. I don’t believe in psychics although I would love to meet a true one. I have never experienced one. I believe 100% in God from experience and dreams and Faith. I don’t put my belief in front of any belief. I respect all. What I find interesting is I don’t believe in ghosts despite some perhaps sightings. Maybe a coincidence. But I find it fascinating that atheists believe in ghosts… why? HG? You are an atheist right? What do you think?

          5. A Victor says:

            Hi Contagious, I finally got back to this thread. I don’t want to continue on it as it’s too difficult to find things but wanted to reply to your comment here.

            I agree that you feel it perhaps more instantaneously and definitely more viscerally than someone with no Contagion.

            I have been a bit confused about the dreams also, I have no Contagion but dream in color, with conversations, with feeling touch etc. And remember them. Have controlled one, a nightmare and know I can if need be for others. So not sure how or if dreams are different for Contagions, not saying they’re not just not sure about it.

            I actually do believe in ghosts, spirits anyway. I’ve had too many incidents that could be explained in no other way. Not at all sure how they would tie in to any of this, or even if they would. I try not to think about those incidents.

            Thanks for the note and the interesting experiences you share on the blog about your Contagion and how you see it manifesting. I look forward to more info from HG to understand it all better and how it is like or different from other empath’s.

      3. Contagious says:

        Hi all! I have written about my children. My daughters father was diagnosed an antisocial not sure if a narc. Might be helpful when HG differentiates the two. The top child psychologist in Orange County actually told me antisocial scan be good parents and referred me to TonySoprano! I about died but although representing myself eventually with much hidden angst I got 80% custody. She said it takes one stable nurturing parent to make the difference. And although he had millions more and I worried about that tug, she said children go to the love. She was right. My children are compassionate successful strong people at 20 and 22, I can tell you never disparage the father helps. Foster the relationship … while… explaining things.” Well your father gets greater happiness on saving money” “ it is not a reflection on you.” “ well your father was raised in harsh conditions it’s why he acts this way” “ it’s not about you”. It’s not your job to be the partner of your father but I admire your compassion for helping.” “ well you know he is a busy man but I can’t wait to be there and so can grandma, your sisters etc…” I know your father believes that and it helped him to be the success he is” but you don’t, nor do I. “ in cases of crime… “ I know your dad says that but there are consequences. As a lawyer, honey, I don’t want this to happen to you. Your dad is a grown up who takes his own risks, but this is what can happen.” That’s ok” and so on…I did adopt the child counselors words that kids want both parents. They do. Seldom does a child want one not without alienation which harms a kid. . They do better with both. Not that the legal system gives us any choice. And the best wAy is to foster both but be the stable nurturer. The guide. Love, love, love.

    2. Asp Emp says:

      I am only replying to offer a bit of insight. There is a difference between ‘self-esteem’ difficulties and ‘invalidation’, which can lead to ‘invalidation trauma’, and some Co-Ds experience this. Your daughter may have felt her feelings and thoughts were being invalidated when she experienced being shouted at in a public convenience place, she probably felt / thought that she could not have a phone conversation with somebody in private? That incident in itself does not cause trauma but it is, a trigger, that is similar to “return us to the LOCE back then” moment? Unresolved ie not discussed with her personally and in private can just add more to what she may have already experienced when she was younger? I am glad that she does appear to be content in her job as she gets validation (recognition) for what she does without expectations as such. I would suggest that Co-Ds are actually ‘formed’ but your daughter did not become a narcissist because of her GPD arresting the narcissism gene from becoming active ie the empath gene was stronger than the narcissism one in the chain of DNA? Just like the empath status is ‘created’ and becomes more ‘formed’ during their young adult years (if I am recalling this correctly as an explanation that HG offered in one of his videos, I think it was). However, I would suggest, that in some, not all, Co-Ds, their ‘formation’ can start / be ‘activated’ from birth and it becomes stronger as the child develops / grows older?

      1. A Victor says:

        Feel free to reply any time for any reason, it’s fine Asp Emp.

        I think you’re speaking of the zoo incident in the ladies room? I wasn’t shouting, intentionally anyway, I was taking her phone, she was 17, the guy was like 25 or 26, a military veteran who was unhinged. I had not known she had been seeing him, he was a very dangerous person, I was literally trying to protect her. She did end that shortly after, I had threatened to call the police if she did not. This was 5 years after her dad left, so clearly there were/are deep seated issues. Speaking with her more recently, I feel she has worked through some of this. But it takes a lifetime for some things, in my experience anyway.

        I will have to sort through the gene/GPD info, I agree that CoD’s are formed, I actually think it’s a wonder that all ACONs aren’t CoD’s. I also agree that with her it was from birth, her biggest interactions with him were from 0-5 when her brother was born and she was effectively “dropped” by her dad. In fact, she went to see him once a few years ago, to try to resolve some of this, and he didn’t even ask how she was, only spoke of her brother. She has no further desire to see him.

        Thank you for your input.

        1. Asp Emp says:

          Thank you, AV, for responding. Yes, the addiction to narcissism is a life-long force of nature, so to speak 🙂 Every human is “codependent” from birth, of which, some, do not get given the resources to know how to cut those ties because of the in-built and “encouraged” conditioning by the narcissist parent / peers. Triangulating her with her brother would have hurt her (hence part of why not have further contact with him). I am glad you and your daughter are communicating to assist working through life experiences to look and feel about them differently. Good to hear from you 🙂

        2. Asp Emp says:

          PS, thank you for listening 🙂

          1. A Victor says:

            You’re welcome, to both comments. 🙂

  9. A Victor says:

    Hi Joa, your experience with high N traits is the same as my daughter’s but I see only some N traits, others not at all, as can be typical with CoD’s. It was interesting to read your experience of this. I wonder if the development like this has to do with what FYC was suggesting, the issues with trauma, the struggle to feel that one is enough as well as the early potential for narcissism to develop and then the redirecting to empathy. It is interesting and I love the way you describe it. I was sad for my daughter at first, CoD’s have the worst in terms of becoming free and maintaining not being ensnared, but what she offers to the world, to those in her world, there is no one else I know with her gifts. And those are her CoD strengths also. Thank you for your comment, I enjoyed reading it.

    1. annaamel says:

      Hello AV. It’s been interesting to read about your daughter. I’m not sure if you’ve mentioned it, but given she’s a Cod, is her partner a narcissist, normal, or an empath – if you know.

      1. A Victor says:

        Hi Annaamel, I don’t know about her current partner, they are engaged. So far I have seen nothing in him to concern me as to narcissism but I do see issues in a couple members of his family and she is close to them. She has had at least two, probably 4, significant relationships that I would say for sure were narcs, no healthy ones until the one now. If I were to guess between normal and empath on the current one I would actually guess empath. Sometimes time reveals things but I’m hoping it’s only good things, of course, in this situation.

        1. annaamel says:

          That’s very encouraging 🙂

  10. JB says:

    HG, you said that nobody is born with emotional empathy..surely some people are naturally more empathic from the word go? Wouldn’t the person’s innate character make a difference here? One of my kids has shown empathy right from a very young age (especially young, in fact), whereas another has always showed very little..just completely different characters. They have the same upbringing, and I am constantly reinforcing the importance of empathy towards others, but still there is a massive difference between the two. Does this not indicate that one child was born this way, i.e. more empathic?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      They will be more receptive to the instruction of empathy and have a greater capacity for it but they are not created with it.

      1. JB says:


        So we are all effectively born as a blank canvas? Gosh, that certainly adds pressure to get it right as a parent!

        1. Leigh says:

          So true JB!

        2. A Victor says:

          Hi JB, I believe we are but to ease the pressure a bit, we are all human and no one does it perfectly. Just trying to get the big parts right is the most important. Thankfully, in my experience, kids can be quite forgiving of smaller failures we have. Even bigger ones if they know we really didn’t have a pattern of doing things that hurt them, but we made true mistakes.

          1. JB says:


            Yes I hope so. That’s my aim, anyway, to teach them that even parents make mistakes. I guess it’s how you then deal with those mistakes that makes the difference between getting it right as a parent and ballsing it up! Xx

        3. Joa says:

          Tabula rasa.
          John Locke.

          1. Joa says:

            Sorry, in English: Aristotle.

      2. Contagious says:


      3. Contagious says:

        Capacity? Could there be different genetic capacities. There is literature from psychology today, parenting magazine suggesting that there is a genetic link to empathy. It’s recent.

        1. Bubbles says:

          Dear Contagious,
          My thoughts exactly!
          I’m genetically blessed with an over abundance of empathy 🤣
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. Contagious says:

            Dear Bubbles: your blogs prove your abundance of empathy! If only there were 9 billion people like that….

          2. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Contagious,
            Awwwww, shucks, you are the sweetest, what a beautiful thing to say. Thank you ☺️

            Dr Russell Barkley (expert on ADHD) has indicated empathy traits are genetic. I need to research him a bit more however.

            Cos who the hell did I learn it from ? 🤣
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          3. WhoCares says:

            What a sweet image of you, Bubbles, as ‘little Bubbles’ rescuing kittens – thanks for sharing that. What age were you, if you can remember? (And that’s interesting, that you can recall your first instance of caring.)

          4. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Who Cares,
            I was around 7. It was the same time our local ‘boogeyman’ lured me to a place with the intent of taking my clothes off. (I managed to escape after he man handled me)

            Those kittens were my first ‘feeling’ of love and they loved me back unconditionally….I was overwhelmingly happy.
            Children were to be seen and not heard back then.
            Mum was not a hugger or kisser to us. We’d have to kiss her on her right cheek (she’d point to it).
            My cat lived to a very old age, my brother’s cat tried to follow us to school one day and was hit by a car.
            I was going to Sunday school at the time and that’s when I questioned God because my heart was well n truly broken over the death. I stopped going to Sunday school and I never recovered from that. The internal ‘feeling’ of sadness was excruciating. I also remember ‘feeling’ abandoned and alone when mum dropped me off at kindy with a whole bunch of strangers!
            Most of my childhood I felt numb and kept everything in.

            My rescue, fix it desire then kicked in haha
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          5. WhoCares says:

            Thanks for sharing, Bubbles! (So happy to hear that you escaped that boogeyman!)
            It’s good to hear that you experienced love through the kittens, in a family environment so devoid of it. And that would be hard to witness – one of the kittens you raised being struck by a car.

            It’s seems there are a lot of empaths (at least here?) who first experienced love and loss through animal companions. I was trying to think if this was the case for me, but I think it served my mother better to withhold pets from me – because I remember desperately wanting a pet as a child. I must have been really been wanting something to care for because I do recall pulling around a rusty red wagon with a layer of earth in it…there were worms I had collected, in the dirt, and they had real original names like Muddy, Slimey, get the picture, I am sure. Haha.
            And I also remember wanting a pet so much that I asked my parents if I could keep a squirrel if I could catch one. (Our neighbour’s backyard was full of very tall black walnut trees, which dropped those green husk covered nuts that make a mess, leaving a black stain on surfaces – but they supported a healthy population of squirrels back then.) My parents said yes, because they didn’t belive I could catch a squirrel.
            I did. Using the old-school method of a heavy, empty dresser drawer, a stick, some bait (peanuts in the shell) and a string, tied to the stick, running the full length of the yard to inside the backdoor where I waited patiently for my quarry.
            They still didn’t believe me when I sitting on the over turned drawer (as if the black squirrel I had caught was going to lift the thing and escape) and was yelling for them to come see. I think my dad helped me carefully slide an old window screen under the drawer, so I could carefully turn the whole thing over and see my squirrel. I put bricks on the corners and fed it peanuts by sliding them under the screen. I think I kept it for two days and then felt so bad for the poor thing because I discovered that it was slowly chewing away at the screen under one of the bricks in effort to make an escape. So, I let it go – but I was pretty proud that I had proved my parents wrong.

        2. Bubbles says:

          Dearest WhoCares,
          That’s such a lovely story, you caught a squirrel 🐿️ you clever girl…..thank you for sharing that ☺️
          If one is not getting love from our parents, we naturally we look elsewhere, animals don’t let your down like humans do!
          I would be proud to……proving one’s parents wrong is so utterly self satisfying haha
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. WhoCares says:

            Bubbles – “proving one’s parents wrong is so utterly self satisfying” – Agreed!

  11. A Victor says:

    Hi Leigh! I think it means they can become anything but depends at that point on the environment. That’s my understanding……

    1. Leigh says:

      Hi AV! Yes, that makes sense. My questions are always geared to why my daughter became a narc. Why couldn’t she become a normal or narcissistic?

  12. NarcAngel says:

    I have some confusion prompted by a comment and would appreciate if you could provide some clarification/accuracy. Is it your position that narcissists are born with empathy but that it changes when the narcissist/narcissism is fully formed?, or, that they are they born absent empathy to begin with? There has been a lot of information over a long period and I seem to recall you saying the latter – that you were born with nothing there (empathy). I could be mistaken in my recollection, or have misunderstood you to mean only with regard to yourself (The Ultra) and not narcissists in general. I think it an important point to make the distinction lest anyone be led to believing that there is hope the narcissist could “tap back into” something that was never there in the first place. Thank you in advance for any response you may be willing to provide.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I was not born with any empathy and it cannot be injected into me.

      You are correct that there is nothing to “tap into” and it is important that people understand that.

      1. A Victor says:

        Okay, so no narcissist has empathy at birth, so it’s already determined then?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Nobody has empathy at birth, it is learned, we do not learn it.

          1. A Victor says:

            Wow, thanks!! That answers a lot.

          2. Leigh says:

            Mr. Tudor says, “Nobody has empathy at birth, it is learned, we do not learn it.”

            I have a follow up question to this comment.

            Does having the narcissist gene make it more difficult to learn empathy?

          3. HG Tudor says:

            Not of itself.

          4. A Victor says:

            So then Empaths who have two narc parents and no intervener likely did not have the narc gene, at least as dominant, or they would’ve become narcs, likely…?

          5. HG Tudor says:

            Either the genetic component was missing and/or they were not exposed to a sufficient lack of control environment.

          6. A Victor says:

            Thank you!

          7. ava101 says:

            I have no idea how I developed empathy, and I did lack some outer behavioral empathic responses as a child as simply didn’t learn it from my family. I don’t know why I wouldn’t have become a narc myself, I am sure I had plenty of “no control” opportunities. My sisters don’t show normal empathy….. And some narcs have amazing cognitive empathic skills.

          8. Contagious says:

            There was a study out of Cambridge in 2018 of 46,000 that indicated empathy might have a genetic component. I think DNA has more to do with who we are than science has yet to uncover. If narcissism is a “ personality disorder” with genetic and environmental roots. Psychopaths are born that way. Major studies on brain differences. Where do empathy’s fit in? I know with Contagian empathy there are studies on brain differences. Mirroring etc….How do you know HG empathy aren’t genetic at all? I ask you with all due respect as I appreciate, value and respect your input on these subjects. No one can touch you on the subject of narcs. I look forward to more information and education and your insights into psychopathy and empathy cadres and schools.

          9. Contagious says:

            Also what do you think of cold therapy? This therapy that Sam says can cure narcissism?

          10. HG Tudor says:

            Answered many times before, it cannot.

          11. Joa says:

            Literature, imagination, my sister, dog, nature, birds, animals. It had the biggest impact on my emotional development.

            Developing in me very strong features: pity, gratitude, admiration – I certainly owe it to my mother. Unfortunately, she no longer uses them. Although, she is still trying to reach a place that is already closed to her.

            Pity – my greatest bane. Even when I win, triumph and roar like a lion, it brings me down in the end.

          12. Asp Emp says:

            Joa, reading your first sentence here gave me a good insight into why my father got us guinea-pigs as pets because he knew that I had the capability to show compassion / love in a way that was not people related. I think my father understood that about me through his own individual experiences as a person. I believe he understood himself as an individual and did not question himself in any way. He was the type of person not to permit being brain-washed by anybody. Muvver got pregnant and that is probably the only real reason why they married (otherwise, in those days, babies born of unwed mothers were taken into care)? Yes, my father was a main intervener (and those cute guinea-pigs) 🙂

          13. A Victor says:

            Hi Joa, yes, pity is my undoing also.

          14. annaamel says:

            Joa, I know you have co-dependent in your schools. Do you have contagion also? And do you know your cadres? Totally understand if you’d rather not say.

          15. WhoCares says:

            “Nobody has empathy at birth, it is learned, we do not learn it.”

            How does one learn to have Contagion empathy when it isn’t observable?

          16. HG Tudor says:

            To clarify, nobody has emotional empathy at birth, it is learned and then flourishes as natural emotional empathy which in effect is “injected” into the subject or gifted to it. We, do not learn that emotional empathy, it never occurs, instead some of us learn fake empathy through a cognitive appreciation of how empathy functions. You feel it, we think it. It is akin to the parent (usually a parent) who gifts emotional empathy to the child and then teaches them to nurture and grow this emotional empathy. As part of this “gifting” , some individuals “grow” contagion empathy alongside the emotional empathy.

          17. Asp Emp says:

            This explains it very well, HG, thank you 🙂

          18. A Victor says:

            Okay, so emotional empathy can be “gifted” to someone. I have thought that may be why I have it. I clearly remember feeling empathy for certain things at a very young age and then pushing those feelings down because it was dangerous to have them, very painful. But this could explain why I do have it even with two barb parents. Also, my dad, as UMR, was very good at cognitive empathy when he wanted to be. I think I felt loved by him as a very small child, before he became less concerned about not having the CE for us. My siblings, getting younger, saw even less than I did of this from him. I never remember warm feelings from my mom, never have, never felt connected to her. According to all this research, i should be sunk, but if this was gifted to me, that may be what made the difference.

          19. A Victor says:

            Also, do we grow Carrier, Magnet, Savior etc email alongside emotional empathy, as with Contagion, or is that part of our emotional empathy?

          20. A Victor says:

            Wait, is Contagion a school? I was thinking cadre. So do we grow Super, Standard and CoD alongside regular emotional empathy also?

          21. WhoCares says:

            Thank-you, HG, for the thorough answer.

          22. Leigh says:

            Mr. Tudor,
            Is there a genetic predisposition for empathy and does having it or not having it, determine the capacity at which you can learn empathy?

          23. HG Tudor says:

            There is a genetic predisposition for its capacity.

          24. Leigh says:

            Thank you, Mr. Tudor

          25. Truthseeker6157 says:

            “Gifting” emotional empathy. What an incredibly respectful way of expressing it. Thank you.

          26. ava101 says:

            Yes, Contagious, but genes can also be switched on and off by experience, and then there is also epi genetics….

        2. Bubbles says:

          Dear Mr Tudor,
          My apologies, I’m rather late to this party and haven’t caught up yet. If I may, to me, empathy is a ‘feeling’ one has ….it’s just there, the same way you feel happy sad love anger pain n such …… bit like when Adam saw Eve …he just got a ‘feeling’ 😂
          I remember my first empathy ‘feeling’, was playing down the creek when I saw some abandoned kittens, I just automatically rescued them ….no one taught me, I had this burning desire within me to save them at all costs. Which I did and kept them.
          Ya either got or ya ain’t
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. A Victor says:

            Hi Bubbles, I agree with this, it makes complete sense.

          2. A Victor says:

            Oh, but also, it can be eradicated by the bolting on of narcissism between 0 and 9. So it can be there prior to this but be gone after, is it gone or is it locked away? It doesn’t seem to make any difference to the outcome.

          3. Bubbles says:

            Dearest A Victor,
            I feel the same AV
            I locked it away as I had no one to tell. No one knew my story, I was ashamed and embarrassed.
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          4. A Victor says:

            Same. It is still difficult to share unless i have developed a lot of trust in a person. Thanks for sharing Bubbles.

      2. A Victor says:

        Okay, empathy can’t be injected into a narc once they have the narc exterior bolted on, between ages 0-9, but it does develop at some level in those who don’t become narcs, either due to not enough of a LOC environment or not having the narc gene. But, it could develop in a person with the narc gene if the LOC is not sufficient. Wow, okay this is good. And the CoD does develop it even with the possibility of becoming a narc, possibility even on their way to become a narc. But the empathy is developed bringing about aCoD instead. Does it then correlate that these are the Empaths with the gene and it was more the environment that created them and avoided the narcissism in them? Or can any empath have the gene but it just doesn’t develop in them like it did with a CoD? I should probably read the book again…

        1. lickemtomorrow says:

          AV, My mind is working along the same track with the same questions.

          Maybe I should read the book again, too.

          If narcissism isn’t completely pre-determined, then there must be the potential to develop empathy, at least before nine years of age. If you have no empathy then you can only be a narcissist by default, or a psychopath. There is no path to a hermetically sealed narcissism. It’s already in place from birth.

          Same question is raised for me around the CoD … something took us off the path of becoming a narcissist and put us on the completely opposite path.

          Looking forward to getting more understanding.

          1. A Victor says:

            Hi LET, After reading my comment after it was posted, I wasn’t sure if it made sense. But yes, you got it. Whew!

            We know that people born with the narc gene will not always become narcs, if they don’t have the LOC environment. So yes, they can develop empathy. I suspect some start to, not in HG’s case as a psychopath also, but some have one incident that seals the narcissism, so up to them, they could’ve been developing it I think, and that incident removed it as it bolted on the narc defense. Then some may have started to develop it in a long term LOC environment also, but as the LOC progressed maybe it shriveled yup and didn’t make it anywhere? I mean, how else could some who have it not become narcs? There has to be the capacity for it in them unless there is the psychopathy also.

            Yes, I am also very excited for more info on all of this! It is fascinating!

          2. FYC says:

            This may be helpful in understanding genetics and gene expression required,

            With regard to empathy, it is important to differentiate between emotional empathy and cognitive empathy. Emotional empathy involves many parts of the brain and is thought to develop through caregiver/child experience (the degree to which a child receives consistent, healthy, positive, attunement and love/caring, versus the lack thereof is part of attachment theory–Bowlby et al). Inconsistent/unpredictable attunment or interaction with the child to gain a sense of feeling love versus giving unconditional love contributes to an anxious/preoccupied attachment style. Trauma/LOCE in addition to the above factors, is considered to lead to fearful avoidance and dismissive avoidant attachment styles (dependent upon many factors). The greater the degree of LOCE and trauma, the greater the likelihood of impact.

            Babies only job is to survive. As they are entirely dependent, it is necessary to build a bond with the primary caregivers. Therefore, babies seek to attune with their caregivers both non-verbally and verbally (e.g. crying, cooing, etc.) and model caregiver behavior. Babies do no possess a developed prefrontal cortex and therefore cognitive empathy is not an option. Babies have been studied for signs of emotional empathy, however, and per one review, babies begin to show spontaneous empathy (unaided) towards other babies (comforting them when they cry) and unrewarded acts of assistance or kindness by age 18 months. Between the ages of 0-3, attachment styles are developed dependent upon caregiver attunement and secure environment.

            School classes were employed a decade ago for different ages in an effort to enhance empathy, yet after completion, empathy scores did not improve to any significance. Classes were since dropped from programs. The prevailing thought is that capacity for and levels of empathy remain consistent throughout our lives. That said, other studies where diagnosed narcissists were taught to reframe another’s experience as if it were their own, did significantly increase their capacity for cognitive empathy as a learned skill. This did not enhance their overall empathy. Narcissists have normal self empathy. Narcissists lack emotional empathy for others. They may be motivated to use cognitive empathy to enhance their ability to have improved social interactions (for their own purposes).

            CoD would correlate most closely with an anxious attachment style which is thought to develop due to caregiver “emotional hunger” and/or trauma, the impact of which is thought to potentially pass down generationally.

            Hope this helps.

          3. Leigh says:

            Hi FYC, Thank you for your thorough response. I still have many questions. Mr. Tudor has confirmed I’m an empath so my first question is where did I learn that empathy? Both my parents are narcissists. Since I’m a Standard empath I’m assuming I don’t have the narc gene so how did I miss it? I definitely had a LOCE as a child but somehow missed the narc gene.

            Fast forward to now and I’m married to a narc and one of my children is a narcissist, my other child is an empath. Just to clarify also, Mr. Tudor has confirmed that one child is narc and the other is an empath. So how did that happen? I know my narc daughter has the narc gene and there was a LOCE, but I need to go deeper than that. I need to understand how I was shown no empathy and yet I learned it but my daughter was shown empathy by me and her sister but didn’t learn it. I know that LOCE is subjective because if I had her childhood compared to mine, it would’ve been a cake walk for me, yet for her it was a LOCE.

            How come she didn’t become a normal or narcissistic? Was having the narc gene enough to make her feel like her environment was a LOCE?

          4. A Victor says:

            Hi FYC, yes, this is helpful, thank you. Especially my CoD daughter, having a child very soon, I will pass this info on to her regarding the “emotional hunger”.

            Whenever I am taking about Empaths, I am thinking emotional empathy, narcs and I am thinking cognitive empathy, thank you for the reminder to also write that, to be more clear.

          5. SOTF says:

            Hello Leigh,
            Have you considered the possibly that you daughter might have been subjected to abuse that you don’t know about?

          6. Leigh says:

            Hi SOTF, I don’t believe my narc daughter suffered any physical or sexual abuse from my husband. I think if that happened my empathic daughter would have told me. I also think I would’ve seen it. As my husband’s IPPS I don’t think he would’ve risked losing me as his primary source. Physically abusing them would not have served his purpose. My children are both adults now and both consider him an absentee father. I think if she was abused one or both of my children would have told me by now

          7. Joa says:

            “Emotional hunger” – I’ve felt it since I can remember, and my memory is early. Eternal insufficiency.

            There are only moments, passing moments in which I am “full” – only in contact with a male Narcissus.


            I think several events contributed to this emotional hunger:

            – I was a premature baby and for the first month of my life I was alone in an incubator. My mother came to the hospital once a day to give milk, but in those days they didn’t even let touch a newborn baby. She just stared at me through the glass.

            – I spent the next few months of my life in the hospital.

            – My sister was born right after me (there is less than a year difference between us – something like the so-called Dutch twins, although we have different years in the dates of birth), so my mother focused attention on her.

            – I was “daddy’s girl” and my sister was “mommy’s girl”. When I was 2 years old, my father killed himself (in an abusively demonstrative way – probably towards my mother – “you’re guilty” message). This incident also affected/especially my mother. The sister “hit” the least.
            I know it’s basically okay, he wasn’t a good father. When my mother birth to my sister, he left me home alone for two days. He also happened to forget about me for a few hours and leave the stroller with me in the park in the middle of winter. Despite these events, I felt his loss and I couldn’t, like my mother, turn it into anger, I felt sadness. I felt attached to his grave…

            Yes, all of this has certainly influenced who I am.


            At the age of 6, thoughts about the closeness of a woman and a man began. Firmly entwined in a loving embrace, with their heads between their legs, forming the shape of a rolling female-female circle. I imagined this image every night for a very long time. This image gave me the comfort and warmth I needed. Interestingly, I learned very late what sex means in theory – only at the age of 14 🙂 Even though no erotic painter would be ashamed of the images in my head 🙂


            “I like fucking without commitment” – he said. I’ve been digesting this crude text for two weeks and can’t chew it and spit it out.

            No! I do not agree. You won’t spoil it for me. I will never allow it. Go away with your fucking.

            Sex is warm.
            Sex is life.

          8. SOTF says:

            Hi Leigh,

            Could the LOCE been taken place at Kindergarten/School?

            Whatever it was that caused your daughter to develop Narcissism I hope that you find out.

          9. Asp Emp says:

            SOTF, good point about school, if it were a serious one off incident, surely the school would have reported that to relevant parents? Then again, LOCEs also include one where the parents argue a lot. If grandparents are narcissistic / narcissists, they can contribute to the formation of a narcissist (from age 0 to 9 years), depending if the grandparents were around the child a lot during their formation years.

          10. Leigh says:

            Thank you SOTF.

          11. FYC says:

            Hi Leigh, It is quite a bit more complicated than that, but HG’s simplified model for the purposes of his blog audience is spot on. I too wanted to know more so I have read quite a bit of research to better understand the scientific underpinnings of personality and behavior with regard to empathy and narcissism. It is a lot to cover and I am sensitive to going too far afield and taking up HG’s valuable time.

            Genetic expression is not black and white, more like a kaleidoscope. Also, this area of study in still in its infancy, much more study is needed on the origin of narcissism and empathy. That said, you could have two parents that have narcissism (both have a genetic component and had the LOCE to ignite it) and yet you may not have the gene (I have not seen any studies on narcissism being dominate versus recessive from a genetic perspective), or you could have it and it failed to be expressed. This could be due to other influences such as temperament, gender, brain structure and its components, behavioral influences from others who participated in your care (other relatives, friends, babysitters, animals, etc.). You may never know all the reasons you are an empath. The above list may also explain why your one child is narcissistic and the other empathetic. Please bear in mind, children are considered neither, only their behaviors. They may be diagnose at 18, however the human brain does no complete development until approximately age 25.

            One thing I feel I should mention is that physical or sexual abuse is not required for narcissism and many Ns are far more insidious with their attempts to assert control and obtain fuel. Also bear in mind, Narcissism is a psychological defense. There for at some point, the N individual had to come to the conclusion that their true self was wholly unacceptable and replaced it with an unimpeachable false self that afforded superiority and security (though not lasting, hence the need for fuel repeatedly). So I cannot answer directly, all I can say is that there are many possible explanations.

            You may find this overview helpful:

          12. Leigh says:

            Hi FYC, I apologize. I just saw this response this morning. I just want to clarify a couple of things. My children are both adults. They’re in their early 20s. I do know that the prefrontal cortex is not fully developed until 25 and so until that’s developed, impulse control and planning can be an issue. With that in mind, I still believe that Mr. Tufor’s analyses of my daughters, is accurate. As much as it hurts me to say this, I can see how one has empathy and one doesn’t. It was a difficult decision but I decided to do the narc detector when she was 21.
            I had already knew the answer though. My other daughter did the empath detector when she was almost 23.

            There’s still so much to learn. I’ve been doing some research myself. I saw your comment to AV also and I’ve read the articles. I agree, it’s still in is infancy.

            Thank you for sharing those articles and your thoughts. I appreciate it. The truthseeker in me needs to delve deep also.

          13. FYC says:

            Hi A Victor,
            My take on CoD is two-fold, trauma is often involved. This can result from physical or emotional trauma. This trauma embeds a belief in the CoD person that they are “not enough” or “cannot deliver enough” of something. This might be seen in cases where emotional hunger is resident in the parent and the child is unconsciously expected to fill that hunger, or the child witnesses the parents behavior in their relationship(s) or it can be unrealistic expectations of either parent such as parentification, where the child is expected to care for the adult and this is an impossible task. In any case the CoD feels their value is seen only when they give or do or perform to meet perceived expectations both internal and external. Yet a person’s true value is inherent. We are all uniquely valuable. It is important for the child to feel loved and her needs addressed. She needs to see and hear and feel consistent attunement and positive regard. Parenting is a tough, selfless job and no one is perfect, so let your daughter know to love herself the same way. She is equally valuable. I’m sure she will do a fine job.

            Regarding empathy, empaths have both emotional empathy and cognitive empathy for self and others and the degree to which they use these skills affects their overall emotional intelligence. Narcissists do not have emotional empathy for others but may possess some cognitive empathy as HG covers in detail.

            I wish you all the best with your grandchild to come!

          14. FYC says:

            Joa, I am so sad you endured so much. You have my heart-felt sympathy for your loss. Please always know you are loved more than you realize for who you are. You need not do or be anything more. Seek what brings you feelings of true self love and love from others. Make a conscious decision that you can be fulfilled and your hunger satiated. Catch your self-talk and speak back to any thoughts that you are not enough or you will never feel fulfilled. These thoughts/feelings may have been accurate during many times, but they do not have to prevail now. This will help create new neural pathways, thoughts and feelings. You are worth everything and you get to decide for yourself. Once you fill yourself with acceptance and love you can let go of that former pain. Wishing you all the best.

          15. Contagious says:

            There are many studies. Narcs have less gray matter in area of brain where empathy lies. Plus narc damage causing CPTSD damages the hiccocampas and amygdala. Psychopath brains are well studied. They have prefrontal cortex differences where empathy lies and the amygdala where fear and guilt lie. It is known psychopaths are born that way. Narcs can suffer brain damage from narc abuse but there are studies that their genes and brains differ. Less is known compared with psychopaths. A child born with psychopathy is known to not change.They can be taught cognitive empathy. I don’t know as a poor mother with either if you see a problem how you can help. I do know early intervention helps .

          16. Contagious says:

            Btw you can have two narc parents but someone else can intervene with nurture and love. It does not need to be a parent. It could be a grandmother, aunt etc…

          17. Joa says:

            It was supposed to be:
            …a rolling male-female circle.

          18. Joa says:

            FYC, thank you very much.

            Please don’t worry about me (I’m not used to being cared for, it makes me feel weird and uncomfortable – that’s my role, please don’t knock me out of it, ha ha ha 🙂 ). I am stronger than you think – it’s just that this place has become a space for me to discover my guts – analysis and comparisons with other people here allow me to make adjustments, if I believe they are justified.

            I don’t know what self love is – can you love yourself??? Terrible! I think it’s some weird modern slogan.
            But for sure – I like myself 🙂 And I’ve always liked my own company (after all, no one spends as much time with me as I do) ha ha ha 🙂

            There are only parts of me, that I despise. Though most people don’t see anything wrong with them. I do. I’ve been striving for the ideal of myself, scolding myself and whipping myself since I can remember… but I don’t think I can get out of myself anymore 🙂 I’ve reached the ceiling. I’m pacing around. Yes, I should accept the whole of myself and slow down.

            Only… I’m afraid that when I let go, what I’ve worked out in myself will start to fall into ruin… It’s hard to let go of control over myself…

            My thinking is very twisted 🙂

            My colleague from work, whose wise simplicity speaks to me the most and makes me laugh, would reply: “Damn! Have mercy! Give it up after all. You are only human” 🙂

            Pssssss, I’m dropping from a balloon right now.


            I really like your post about CoD.

          19. FYC says:

            HI Joa

            I care greatly–it’s hard wired 😉 I have no doubt you are incredibly strong. Every thing you describe reflects that. Introspection is a very healthy habit and learning and growing and changing what you feel improves your and others’ experience in this life is a noble effort.

            What is self love? Love is hard to define, but I would begin with acceptance of yourself and forgiveness of anything you find not so acceptable. It is gratitude of all you are and all you have learned and all you have experienced and/or survived. It is respect for yourself and your needs, hopes, desires and well-being. It is kindness and care for yourself. It’s realizing you are unique and worthy and you make a difference to every life you touch just as you are. I believe as and ACON, self love is learned versus innate due to all we dealt with growing up.

            I doubt there is anything to really despise. What is the ideal self? Is it not a perception that varies and changes as you go through life? Negative self-speak is common among ACONs but not helpful or healthy. Talk back to those thoughts! The negative inner voice is thought to originate from a voice of someone critical in your past, often a parent (Robert Firestone, Ph.D., Lisa Firestone, Ph.D. many studies and works but here is a link for a distilled version:

            So I agree with your friend! Go easy on yourself and embrace self-acceptance. It may feel strange at first, but I believe you will begin to feel peaceful versus anxious. You need not fear. When you let go of the struggle, you will find you are still in control of you. And you will stand strong and beautiful and the only ruin you will find will be a distant memory that no longer has any power over you. Wishing you all the best!

          20. Joa says:

            FYC, thank you, I appreciate your comments and the information you give us.

            So, regarding the version of “self-love” you describe, I can say that I ALMOST love myself 🙂 I think, my “I like myself” was very adequate. I definitely prefer that term. There is much more acceptance in “I like myself” than in the pathetic “I love myself”. This modern term really gets on my nerves, it’s unfortunate, I hate it because it disgusts me how many people under the guise of “self-love” focus only on themselves or nonsense and impose it on others, for example by practicing bizarre techniques for show (bombing photos of walking barefoot in summer, winter and after fire; building huts in the forest and singing to the stone – and hundreds of other variations, every step photographed, filmed and uploaded to the web; pseudotherapists, gurus, shamans, trainers and monks, and thousands of “happy convalescents” for their back; training, courses, trips – business is booming). I am intolerant of “self-love”.

            Human! Be REALLY alone with yourself. Turn everything off. Only you! No one more. Take care of yourself, not others! It’s enough. You don’t have to go to Tibet, camp on top of a mountain at least 2500 above sea level, hang like a bat or sit cross-legged on a fir tree branch. Sit in your garden, in the nearby park, look at the sky, look at the ground, look at the birds, see that ant carrying the fly’s wing to the hole, look at the wonderfully innervated leaf through which the light shines, see this little blue forget-me-not, (Not pluck! Don’t destroy!), see how wonderfully it plays and sparkles the snow melting from the branches, see how it roars everywhere and screams LIFE, and then look inside yourself – you will discover much more there. And it turns out that it’s not boring at all…

            You want to go to the mountains, set up a camp in the forest, explore the world – great! It’s very interesting and enjoyable. I like reading direct reports and looking at photos uploaded by my friends, asking questions, commenting, but don’t give it metaphysical meanings. You can discover yourself and travel around your interior by chopping vegetables for a salad or vacuuming your apartment.

            In conclusion, I believe that the term “self-love” hurts people more than it helps. Love is a really great and powerful thing. Love includes understanding, devotion, sacrifice with self-choice, ess to help, support, care, admiration, joy of being together, happiness, sadness and madness. What a waste of this powerful life energy, to waste something so beautiful on yourself 🙂 You can. But that won’t do “magic”. The real power of love is that when you give it, it multiplies further, buds in people and infects others. It will not always come back to you, and sometimes it will come back in a different form. But how wonderful to watch when it blooms in people 🙂 How it carries on 🙂

            Love has many faces and you tailor it to a specific person. Although people are similar, they are very diverse, millions of microvariants. That’s why every love is different. But general love, for all people as a group, for the, nature, human achievements on a world scale – I have the impression that it is very similar in all people, who feel it. She is full of understanding and kindness. That’s all, but it’s even more powerful. There is no egocentrism in it, but there is a strong sense of belonging and feeling the importance of your existence, being pollen, eukaryote and part of the whole.

            My god, I’m completely off topic, I’m concentrating now.


            There are things you can despise about yourself. I write this without beating my chest or lamenting. It`s just the way it is. No, it’s not about the inner critic. Of course, I have many inner critics. And because I’m very self-centered and self-aware (perhaps always, which is typical of people who love solitude but hate solitude), I think I know all my inner critics, I recognize each one of them. The traces of these people live in me. I laugh in their face 🙂 It helps a lot. Sometimes I prove to them how wrong they are and I look at them with a challenge in my eyes, and sometimes I do just the opposite and specially “out of spite”, and sometimes I just don’t want to listen to them and I ignore them 🙂 It’s quite tiring, because I have to analyze this in EVERY “anxious” situation, when thoughts are beating inside me. As a consolation, I will add that the traces of these people in me, are not only bad, but also good. To sum up – I know what comes from whom in me and how it affects me.


            A digression on loneliness: One of the Polish singers sang: “I like solitude, but the two of us, at your arm’s length.” I had to write it here. It always sounded strong to me. Yes, I’ve always dreamed of such a relationship. Not too close (I choke) and not too far (I miss you).


            I know, what ideal “me”, I striving for, but I will not achieve it. I am glad, that I have done so much “in myself”, I have come a long way, but I have reached the limits. After yesterday’s incident, which I’m about to describe (not in detail, I’ll leave it to myself), I know that I can’t let go of control me. NEVER. That’s who I am and that’s what I have to control – I accept 🙂
            I can still work on being more flexible, when it comes to attempts to control the environment, there may still be something that can be done, although not much.


            What do I despise?
            Yesterday I was in a hurry, I was almost reaching my goal, when something unexpected happened, a trivial event, that pushed this goal away in time. In one second my mood changed dramatically. For about 30 seconds. 30 seconds, when I better have no one bue with me. 30 seconds, when I can do great harm – verbally or physically. 30 seconds, during which I understand the worst instincts and motives for the most heinous crimes. 30 seconds, before I regained control of my stiff muscles, the urge to hit and smash, my clenched jaw and clenched fists. 30 seconds, after which my head is pierced by lightning, my heart is pounding like a hammer and I’m panting like I’ve run a marathon.

            Hello psycho, long time no see. Last flush – about half a year ago. Yes, I know, I’ve made a lot of progress, you rarely come around anymore. I can control you, when I feel you coming. I still can’t, when you show up so fast.
            Yes, you could go crazy for half an hour a long time ago, remember how often windows and glass were broken? Yes, I’ve always had strong legs, I could defend myself with them better than with my hands. Remember how hard I used to hit my head, against the wall to stop you? Light years ago… I was like a different person. But you still haunt me sometimes, though I still think I’m free of you…

            I wrote above that love is contagious. Sociopathy too. I know, it’s a legacy from my stepfather. I see him so strongly in me then. 30 seconds, when I was again an uncontrollable essence of rage, like him.

            I saw my sister in the evening. She fights “him” too. My nephew celebrated his name day, but had to wait 5 minutes for his smiling aunt and his gift. First I had to run into the kitchen and tell my sister. I searched for her understanding eyes. She looked at me sadly and said: “I know. Me too recently.” It was enough for me, to forgive myself and move on.

            This fury is inadequate to the events. Disproportionate. Irrational. In other circumstances, the same trivial thing is met with my angelic patience and gentleness.

            I despise that it lasted 30 seconds. Too long. Still too dangerous, too close to the edge of electrocuting everything around. I can not eliminate “him”. But “he’ should disappear immediately, with my first breath. Even though I don’t know if I’m even breathing at that moment, I go into a different mode.


            The N1 didn’t have that in him. His anger was big, but it was “ordinary”. His level of aggression was no match for mine.

            N2. Yes. I scanned him as quickly as he scanned me. At one of the first parties together, someone stole my phone. So many people… “Go to the car and wait for me there” – he said, clenching his jaw. I knew. When my phone arrived 20 minutes later, I was sure. He purred and snapped his fingers as if to loosen up, then let out a cloud of love.

            I’ve never seen TRULY his psycho. I probably didn’t make it. I saw him on the brink of release. I recognized that stiffness and jaw immediately. In fact, he was always very composed around me, even when I was the one going “crazy”.
            I saw his psycho pounding through the text two years ago. I know it’s there, I’ve always felt it.


            A long time ago, a cousin came to N1, who rarely visited him. In 11 years of relationship with N1, we only saw each other 5 times. Very handsome. Intelligent. Impeccable manners, especially for the age of 20+. We were kayaking with several people. Sunbathed. We talked. “Have you read A Clockwork Orange?” – he asked. We splashed each other with water. We started pushing each other with the oars and bantering, trying to capsize our kayaks. N1 and the rest of the people drifted somewhere further. He suddenly looked me in the eye, stopped jostling with me and said: “You are a very aggressive woman” and my laughter died away. It froze me. N1 swam in and I focused all my attention on it, avoiding his cousin forever.


            Twelve years of intense “friendship” at work. Do you remember when you started work? You were so young and scared. I took you under my wing right away. You started “confessing” pretty quickly. I saw after a few months. The moment you said, that your mother’s silence and her reading books drove you crazy once – so much so that you stuck her bedroom door out of its frame.
            “Is there something hiding behind your calmness? I dreamed you were a total sociopath and you bullied me. I was afraid of you. You are like that, aren’t you?” – you said with satisfaction and a laugh. “Indeed! But don’t worry, only in a romantic relationship” – I replied with a smile.

            I have told you many times that you will reach the top, I can see the potential in people. Don’t try to use your advantage against me just because I walked a few steps away and stayed among the people. You must go on alone like the others before you. It’s getting colder, but it’s still me. Getting colder, but it’s still you. Again.


            Once HG wrote about the erroneous narrative according to which in love and friendship opposites attract. He wrote, that it is not true, that like attracts.

            Exactly. I agree. It is a dormant but deep, the wildest part of me. A little piece of me, that can take over me and pulls me in so much, whenever I see it in someone else through the holes in the mirror. This is my problem.

            Sorry for the length of this.


          21. FYC says:

            Hello Joa, I find your writing fascinating. Thank you for sharing your experience and inner thoughts.

            I agree about love. It is endless and multiplies. It is free and unconditional. It is most important and changes every life it touches.

            Regarding terms such as self-love, they are only attempts to define a condition, a state of being and understanding. When you have self-love (or like) it is an inside job. Not something posted on social media.

            Like may attract like (given desired validation of our thoughts and feelings and experiences and actions), however, it is important as an ACON and empath to keep in mind a different yet strong attraction: *familiar* is attracted to *familiar*. If you grew up in a dysfunctional home, you have an increased likelihood to be attracted to the same dysfunction traits. It is believed this stems from 1) the desire to change the outcome (a common empath/N dynamic), 2) the false belief that you deserve such behavior, or 3) you recognize such a person/relationship is unhealthy for you but it “feels like home” and to be with a different person feels like something is “missing”.

            It seems your “fury” is a reflection of pain, expressed by control. Everyone, not just Ns, seek a degree of control over themselves and their environment, especially when uncertainty or threat (perceived or actual) is present. I hope you find the source of your “fury” and heal that area of deep pain. It seems as if this could possibly free you of its grip.

            I hope you no longer associate closely with your Ns. Toxic relationships drain you and press you to your limits. I hope you find a way to be free. It seems you have so much more in you to experience and give.

            Your desire for a relationship that is not too close yet not too far away describes an avoidant attachment style (there are four attachment styles, secure, anxious, avoidant and dismissive), very common among ACONs. Finding that balance can be difficult for all involved but is possible.

          22. WiserNow says:

            Hi FYC,
            Hope you are well. Thank you for your informative and thoughtful comments in this thread, which is an interesting one. I have read the various views and perceptions and there’s a lot of food for thought.

            In relation to your comment here mentioning attachment, I think your description of the four attachment styles is not entirely accurate. I did consider whether to keep scrolling and reading through the thread or whether to intercept and say something. For the sake of accuracy of information, I find it relevant and important to comment.

            In the course of learning about child development, I have read about Attachment Theory, initially researched by John Bowlby and Mary Ainsworth and then others in later research.

            Attachment theory makes a distinction between childhood attachment and adult attachment, however, a child’s attachment style will remain relatively the same and lead to similar relationship patterns in later life and adulthood. I think the distinction between childhood and adulthood attachment is necessary because a child has a biological need to attach for survival, whereas an adult does not.

            In childhood, the research describes these four attachment styles:
            – Secure; Anxious-Avoidant; Anxious-Resistant (also called Ambivalent); and Disorganised.

            In adulthood, the research describes the following four attachment styles:
            – Secure; Dismissive-Avoidant (akin to the childhood Anxious-Avoidant); Anxious-Preoccupied (akin to the childhood Anxious-Resistant); and Fearful-Avoidant (akin to the childhood Disorganised).

            What is also interesting and I think important to understand, is that each ‘type’ of attachment behaviour is more of a ‘continuum’ rather than a specific and static ‘type’.

            For example, even though an adult may have a generally ‘secure’ attachment style, the person can still show dismissive-avoidant behaviour, or say, fearful-avoidant behaviour, on occasion and in different environments depending on what else, (or perhaps who else) is present in the person’s life.

            Considering Attachment Theory in more depth is interesting because it provides insight into an individual’s overall nature and social behaviours over time and in different contexts.

          23. FYC says:

            Hello WN,

            As is the case with most titles used to identify psychological adaptation, they change over time and vary by researchers/schools of research. My titles are accurate and I use these consciously over other theorists representations as I believe them to be more accurate for a variety of reasons. I am currently working with a researcher in this area, so I am quite familiar with the body of research. I do not go into detail here as it is rather off topic and easily located via a quick search.

            For your reference, here are the associated titles given over time (and there are a few others):
            Secure attachment
            Anxious attachment, aka anxious-insecure attachment, aka anxious preoccupied
            Avoidant attachment, aka fearful avoidant, aka disorganized-insecure attachment
            Dismissive attachment, aka dismissive avoidant, aka avoidant-insecure attachment,
            All attachment styles other than secure are insecure. Some prefer the disorganized argument, however, new research takes a different view.

            Attachment style is established at birth and may evolve. Once can also achieve what is termed earned-secure attachment.

          24. WiserNow says:

            Hello FYC,

            Thanks for your reply.

            Further to my comment, please see below for three references that describe the four attachment styles I referred to. The three references below were quickly and easily found from an internet search. They contain recent information relayed by experienced clinicians and researchers. While I note three references, there are many others.

            From a website called ‘The Attachment Project’, a passage from an article updated in September, 2022 with the title ‘Attachment Styles & Their Role in Relationships’:

            “John Bowlby’s work on attachment theory dates back to the 1950’s. Based on his theory, four adult attachment styles were identified:
            1. anxious-preoccupied
            2. avoidant-dismissive
            3. disorganized / fearful-avoidant, and
            4. secure.

            Attachment styles develop early in life and often remain stable over time.
            People with insecure attachment styles might have to put some intentional effort into resolving their attachment issues, in order to become securely attached.”


            From a website called ‘Evergreen Psychotherapy Center. Attachment Treatment & Training Institute’. The passage below is taken from an article written in 2017 with the title ‘Four styles of adult attachment’, by Terry Levy, an experienced clinical psychologist and expert in attachment:

            “The four child/adult attachment styles are:
            • Secure – autonomous;
            • Avoidant – dismissing;
            • Anxious – preoccupied; and
            • Disorganized – unresolved.

            Adults with these attachment styles differ in a number of significant ways:
            • how they perceive and deal with closeness and emotional intimacy.
            • ability to communicate their emotions and needs, and listen to and understand the emotions and needs of their partners.
            • modes of responding to conflict.
            • expectations about their partner and the relationship (internal working models).

            There are three primary, underlying dimensions that characterize attachment styles and patterns. The first dimension is closeness, meaning the extent to which people feel comfortable being emotionally close and intimate with others. The second is dependence/avoidance, or the extent to which people feel comfortable depending on others and having partners depend on them. The third is anxiety, or the extent to which people worry their partners will abandon and reject them.

            The outline below describes four adult attachment styles regarding avoidance, closeness and anxiety — and prototypical descriptions of each.

            Secure: Low on avoidance, low on anxiety. Comfortable with intimacy; not worried about rejection or preoccupied with the relationship. “It is easy for me to get close to others, and I am comfortable depending on them and having them depend on me. I don’t worry about being abandoned or about someone getting too close to me.”

            Avoidant: High on avoidance, low on anxiety. Uncomfortable with closeness and primarily values independence and freedom; not worried about partner’s availability. “I am uncomfortable being close to others. I find it difficult to trust and depend on others and prefer that others do not depend on me. It is very important that I feel independent and self-sufficient. My partner wants me to be more intimate than I am comfortable being.”

            Anxious: Low on avoidance, high on anxiety. Crave closeness and intimacy, very insecure about the relationship. “I want to be extremely emotionally close (merge) with others, but others are reluctant to get as close as I would like. I often worry that my partner doesn’t love or value me and will abandon me. My inordinate need for closeness scares people away.

            Anxious and Avoidant: High on avoidance, high on anxiety. Uncomfortable with intimacy, and worried about partner’s commitment and love. “I am uncomfortable getting close to others, and find it difficult to trust and depend on them. I worry I will be hurt if I get close to my partner.”


            From a website called, an article written in 2019 by Cynthia Vinney, an author, academic and research fellow at Fielding Graduate University’s Institute for Social Innovation. The article has the title ‘Adult attachment styles: Definitions and impact on relationships’:

            – Adult Attachment Styles
            While John Bowlby and Mary Ainsworth’s pioneering work focused on the development of infant attachments, Bowlby suggested that attachment impacts human experience throughout the lifespan. The research on adult attachment has demonstrated that some, but not all, adult relationships function like attachment relationships. As a result, adults exhibit individual differences in attachment relationships just like young children do.

            Research on adult attachment styles has shown that there are two dimensions on which these styles develop. One dimension is attachment-related anxiety. Those who are high on this dimension are more insecure and worried about their relationship partner’s availability and attentiveness.

            The other dimension is attachment-related avoidance. Those who are high on this dimension have difficulty opening up and being vulnerable with significant others.

            Interestingly, recent research into child attachment patterns have also discovered that like adults, children’s attachment styles tend to vary along the dimensions of anxiety and avoidance, demonstrating that attachment styles at different ages are based on similar factors.

            These two dimensions give rise to the following four adult attachment styles:

            – Secure Attachment
            Those who have a secure attachment style score low on both anxiety and avoidance. They trust that those they have close relationships with will be there to offer support and security when needed and are prepared to offer security and support when their partners need it in return. They find it easy to open up in relationships and are good at articulating what they want and need from their partners. They’re confident and optimistic about their relationships and tend to find them stable and satisfying.

            – Anxious Preoccupied Attachment
            Those with an anxious preoccupied attachment style are high on the anxiety dimension but low on the avoidance dimension. These individuals have difficulty trusting their partners’ commitment to them. Because they are more pessimistic and worried about their relationships, they often need reassurance from their partners and will create or overemphasize conflicts. They may also have issues with jealousy. As a result, their relationships are often tumultuous.

            – Dismissive Avoidant Attachment
            Those with a dismissive avoidant attachment style are low on the anxiety dimension but high on the avoidance dimension. People with this kind of attachment style are often aloof and emotionally distant in relationships. They may claim they fear commitment. These individuals may seek to assert their independence by delving into individual activities like work, hobbies, or social activities that don’t involve their significant others. They may come across as focused only on themselves and may have passive aggressive tendencies.

            – Fearful Avoidant Attachment
            Those with a fearful avoidant attachment style are high in both anxiety and avoidance. These individuals both fear and desire intimate relationships. On the one hand, they want the support and security that comes from having a significant other. On the other, they worry their significant other will hurt them and at other times feel stifled by the relationship. As a result, people with a fearful avoidant attachment style can be inconsistent towards their partners from day to day, and their ambivalent attitude can lead to chaos.

            While these categories are helpful in describing the extremes on the dimensions of anxiety and avoidance, due to recent research on adult attachment, scholars tend to measure individual differences in attachment along the continuum of each dimension. As a result, adult attachment styles are measured by the degree of anxiety and avoidance each individual scores, providing a more nuanced picture of attachment style than if an individual were simply placed into one of the above four attachment style categories. ”


            Whether or not you dismiss my comment, please note that the evidence (something HG mentions repeatedly) that I have also researched is widely available and cannot be dismissed.

          25. WiserNow says:


            Following on from my initial reply regarding this comment (by the way, my initial reply hasn’t yet been moderated as I write this), your mention of ‘earned secure attachment’ reminds me of a previous thread back in September 2021, (I Second That Emotion, published on 30 September, 2021).

            In that previous thread, the topic was about emotions and narcissism, and there was discussion about whether narcissists could or could not change.

            At that time, I described ‘earned secure attachment’ in the comment below:


            Thanks for your reference of it. I’m already quite familiar with the topic though.

          26. FYC says:

            Hi AV, Congratulations! I am so happy for you! I know your grandchild will be so loved and he or she will benefit from not only your empathy, but your insight and understanding of all that influences their experience. Wishing you and your family all the best.

        2. Leigh says:

          Hi AV & LET, I hope you’re both well. I just wanted to jump in with my own question too. I understand that if an individual with the narc gene doesn’t suffer a lack of control environment then they don’t become a narc. I’m curious though, if that means they will become CoD or could they become a normal or narcissistic. Does having the narc gene always mean you’re either narcissist or CoD?

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            All good questions which I hope HG will be able to clarify, Leigh.

            Hope you are well, too, and good to see you both here.

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hello all 🙂 x

            The way I interpret it is that the psychopath has a different brain wiring altogether. The brain structure isn’t in place to develop emotional empathy so this can’t be rectified in later life. Cognitive empathy can be taught by loving parents but never emotional empathy.

            The narcissist has the brain wiring to develop emotional empathy. The narcissist carries a genetic predisposition towards narcissism and thanks to LOCE and no intervener the individual is never given the opportunity to learn empathy from the get go. Therefore thanks to LOCE the narcissism activates as a self defence mechanism to protect the narcissist from the LOCE. This self defence mechanism is formed before the child ever encounters an empathic model.

            The Co Dependent has the brain wiring to develop emotional empathy. The CoD carries the genetic predisposition towards narcissism. The CoD also experiences a LOCE but, within that LOCE there is an intervener, a model for emotional empathy. The CoD does have the opportunity to learn and experience emotional empathy and recognises that serving the narcissist is beneficial within that LOCE. Rather than selecting narcissism, the self defence mechanism selected instead becomes ‘serve’. So the CoD develops with high empathy, lower narcissistic traits to facilitate the ‘serve’ defence mechanism. For the CoD then, there is something or someone within LOCE that teaches empathy to an accepting brain.

            Along a similar vein, I’m tempted to infer that for a Super to become a Super Empath there needs to be an empathic parent or caregiver in the mix. Not to say that every ACON turns into a SE but rather in order to be SE a narcissist caregiver is a pre requisite.

            I am not in any way implying that all CoD are ‘servants’ rather facilitating the needs of the narcissist is the self defence mechanism selected.

            Just my interpretation, don’t know if it’s correct.

          3. Leigh says:

            Hi TS, its so nice to see you! I agree with your observations. They make a lot of sense. My questions are brought about for selfish reasons though. I need to understand how this happened to my daughter. I don’t know if you saw my response to FYC but how come she wasn’t able to learn empathy? Reading your comment, my first thought is psychopathy but I honestly don’t see that in her. Although sometimes I wonder if my narc husband may have psychopathy. He doesn’t need fuel in the same way as other narcs and he doesn’t experience fear.

            I wait with bated breath for the empath and psychopathy material. I hope we get to see it soon. I know, hope is a 4 letter word.

          4. A Victor says:

            Hi TS,

            I see the psychopathy brain the same way.

            Regarding a child without psychopathy but with the narcissist gene, I think there can be an empathic model in the child’s life but if the LOCE is greater in the child’s perception, the narc gene will still take over, potentially. I think it’s a matter of which outweighs the other in that instance. We are this with HG even.

            There CoD can have some very strong narc traits, I see this with my daughter, but she also lives to make narcs happy, along with everyone else. But, cross one of those traits and look out. So I think you’re on to something there but they’re makeup isn’t always low narc traits, it can be fewer of them though. I think that leaves them vulnerable in certain areas.

            Interesting comment, thanks.

          5. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Grrr, error. That should read, ‘For the SE to become an SE there needs to be a narcissist caregiver in the mix’.

          6. A Victor says:

            Hi Leigh, yes, great questions. I believe that to become CoD there has to be a LOCE also but if there’s an intervener the narcissism can be averted. So they may start on their way toward narcissism but something causes it to change course leaving them with some higher narc traits and missing others altogether sometimes. They can have the largest variation in these traits, from my understanding of it.

          7. Leigh says:

            Hi AV, I understand as you do that the CoD experiences a LOCE and is on the way to becoming a narc and something happens to avert the narcissism. I wonder if that means that they didn’t have the GPD for narcissism? If the CoD doesn’t have the GPD, then is an intervener necessary? If there’s no GPD for narcissism, then theres no narcissism. I also wonder if the intervener is only necessary to help with the LOCE. Unless CoD has the GPD for both narcissism and empathy?

          8. A Victor says:

            Oh also, I think I remember that CoD’s can also have low to no narc traits, depending on the over all makeup. Can’t remember for sure about that one though.

          9. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hi Leigh, Im probably going to make a bit of an idiot of myself here, but I’ll give it a go.

            GCSE biology, to do with alleles activating genes.

            So let’s say the Narc gene is dominant (N) and the empathy gene recessive (E). You get one gene from each parent. For you to be an empath you therefore have to carry an EE combination if you were NE just looking at it biologically minus interveners, LOCE etc, you would be a biological narc.

            Both your parents were narcs, so their genes could be either NN or NE. So if they were both NN you would be NN, a narc. You aren’t. If one was NE and one was NN you could have an NN, NE, NN, NE outcome ( pairing one gene out of each parental donor.) The N gene is dominant so even as NE you would still be a narc assuming LOCE, which you agree was present and no intervener.

            So now if both parents were NE, still both narcissists because the N is dominant. NE &NE would give the following 4 options NN, NE, NE, EE. You’re the EE. One in four chance with both parents being carriers of the N narcissism gene.

            So if you play that forward. You are EE, your husband is either NN or NE. Let’s do NN first. Possible outcomes, for NN &EE would be NE, NE, NE, NE. N is dominant, both children would be biological narcissists in that case. Now with NE &EE, outcomes could be NE, NE, EE, EE. So there would be a 50 :50 chance of your children being biological narcissists or biologically empathic / normal in that Scenario. So it’s possible that your empath daughter is EE like you. Or both could be NE. With one narcissist daughter and one empath daughter born of the same parents into the same environment then the intervening influence must have been greater for one than the other if both were NE.

            Assuming both were NE, then you see yourself as the intervener so why couldn’t you intervene for both? I think here you look at it like a bucket of water. Your empathic influence fills the bucket, but a non empathic influence drains it. Children are influenced by lots of people, teachers, other kids, some are bullied, some are not. Your husband might have had a greater influence on the older or younger child at a very key point in development. So as intervener, you were but one influence. It would have been impossible to control all influences. Many you wouldn’t even have seen. You are an empath and will have done your very best for both children equally. Some things though are just beyond our control.

            Please note, I wasn’t very good at biology, but that is roughly what I remember about the expression of dominant and recessive genes! Hopefully someone else is better qualified to provide a more sophisticated explanation, or to correct me if I got it wrong. I also am assuming the N gene is the dominant gene.

            The key point to remember though Leigh, above all else, it’s not your fault. X

            If your husband really doesn’t experience fear then that’s a massive indicator for psychopathy. Does he genuinely not feel fear or is he claiming not to feel fear? Can’t trust anything a narc tells you, because, well basically, they’re arseholes, present company excepted.

            It’s lovely to see you too. Xx

          10. A Victor says:

            Great comment, exactly as I remember it also and worded better than I could have.

          11. Leigh says:

            Thank you TS! This is a great explanation! My empathic daughter is a standard empath so I would say no narc gene so EE like me.

            Did you see FYC’s comment on the Twisted thread? Here’s a snippet:
            On Maternal Influence:
            The mother plays a critical role in gene expression for the child. Lack of loving attunement with a child between the ages of 0-6 has direct influence over the activation of gene expression (igniting the gene alleles). Further, the mother either supports or destroys the infants conceptualization of “true self”. In the absence of acceptance of true self, reliance upon the false self emerges too early and is utilized as a defense mechanism for survival (ie, narcissism and APD are activated).

            I know its not completely my fault but there’s piece that is my fault. I have to take some responsibility. I struggle to be emotionally supportive. Its not my strength at all. I’m much better helping in practical ways. But children need emotional support and I was lacking there. Its important to learn and grow from this so that I can be the intervener when and if she decides to have children.

            Does he genuinely not feel fear or is he claiming not to feel fear? — I can’t say for certain but I have a gnawing feeling that he doesn’t experience fear. At least not in the same way I do.

          12. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hi AV,

            Yes agree, I think a sole intervener is one part of it, enough in one LOCE to prevent the narcissism forming, not enough in another LOCE.

            Agree also that CoD can have reasonably high narcissistic traits but the empathic traits far outweigh them, making them appear weaker particularly when the self defence mechanism kicks in when in presence of a narc.

            As soon as you add in the other schools present in an empathic make up, those must also offset the CoD element too. Again, hypothesising. The CoD is therefore likely to be most CoD when ensnared.

          13. A Victor says:

            Hi TS, I probably should’ve said that a little differently, the CoD’s often have a more sporadic set of traits and can be high. They will always be lower than the empathic ones because they are empaths, that is true of all the schools. Supers will be higher but more across the board.

          14. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Leigh,

            Phew, I’m glad my explanation helped, if not entirely accurate in terms of terminology, the gist of it is right, in that two narc parents wouldn’t automatically make a child with a predisposition to narcissism.

            I don’t think anyone gets it entirely right Leigh. Even those without narcs in the family history. Too strict, not strict enough, too much their friend, too much the disciplinarian. Even parenting books change over time, society changes. So many variables to consider. Normals and empaths are just doing the best they can with what they have I think. My failing is games. I loved, I nurtured, my kids trust me, but, a bit serious probably, was never crafty, not great at inventing games. We laugh a lot together, but will I be remembered as a fun mum? Possibly not. I was a bit too tidy to make a painting wall or anything like that. There’s always something, and, life is busy. I get what you mean, look back with more experienced eyes and amend, I see only good in that, as long as you don’t judge yourself too harshly. We often don’t judge others as harshly as we judge ourselves. I know we’re both about taking responsibility, when I reach grandmotherhood, no doubt I’ll self evaluate too, but, I think you know what I’m getting at 🙂

            I read FYC briefly, but not closely enough, need to go back and concentrate fully. I’m determined not to miss further comments addressed to me, so going through those first today, whilst tripping over lost comments. Apologies to anyone I haven’t responded to, not intentional.

            It is lovely to see the blog spring back into life isn’t it?


          15. Leigh says:

            This has been cathartic for me and you helped. Thank you, TS.

            It is lovely to see the blog spring back into life. I did miss it.

          16. Jordyguin says:

            TS, so well put! great analyses! I’d also add to the influence list „the event“ that activates the N-solution to come forth. As HG explained, it can even be just one extreme event and that’s it. So there could be an occasion/s that influenced her to choose narcissism as a defense mechanism in order to deal with that event/s, plus the water bucket comparison (or just the „water bucket“ setting only is enough to provoke the outcome of an NE to N).

            (Also we mostly discuss the abusive, violent LOCE setting. But the gilded setting that creates LOCE, fascinates me as well. How „love“ can be suffocating and the child-psyche choose the N-solution to deal with it.
            What a balancing act it must be to give the child the controlled environment and not a lack of it, on both spectrums, knowing that the genes could very much contain both abilities: 1)Disconnection from living beings. 2) Connection with living beings.)

          17. Joa says:

            It is one thing to have narcissistic features, and another to use them in life, to show them to the outside.

            From my experience of CoD and my sister – we have very high narcissistic traits, much higher than other people.

            Sometimes it’s a huge effort for us to keep our inner snake in check. I always refer to this part of myself as “the fool” in order to flatten it, degrade it, diminish it, so that it doesn’t inflate and grow. Most of my life I fight… with myself.

            People say I’m so good. I’m not. They know me like that. I’m trying. I try to keep my immense darkness under control. I try to use only the bright side, build it, worship it, write poems in its honor, glorify it, support it with supports so that it never collapses. Show only this part to the world, only be guided by it. It doesn’t always work.

            I’ll work against myself to prove to “this fool” that she’s nothing. Let her mouth open in amazement and disbelief at what I can be.

            Storm and electrical discharges inside me. Constant struggle.

            I like to come with my sister. She is similar, although she has a little less black. Understands me. It strengthens the bright part of me.

            CoD does not use narcissistic traits in own life, but there are too many of them. N2 recognized this almost immediately. He scanned me the fastest of all the people I met on my way.

          18. FYC says:

            Hi TS,
            So glad you took the time to explain dominate versus recessive genes. It’s a conversation worth having. Unfortunately, no studies have yet determined all genes/alleles involved in narcissism. Further, those suspected only increase likelihood of occurrence. The expression is dependent upon environment and other identified influencing factors. I have seen any studies that state the set of genes that contribute to narcissism are dominate. Given the percentages of Ns to Es, I doubt the genes involved are dominate. Given the significant influence that environment has on ALL coping mechanisms I think it is far more likely that this aspect is most influencing.

            Even in cases where the differences in brain structure and activity indicate psychopathy, such as James Fallon, the expert scientist on psychopathy discovered incidentally his own unlabled fMRI indicating psychopathy. He had the genes, he had the brain structure variance, yet he grew up in a family that provided loving care and he attributes his environment as the reason he failed to adopt more pronounced psychopathic traits.

            From what I have read, even if both parents have the genes involved in narcissism, this does not guarantee narcissism in the child due to other necessary factors, it only increases their likelihood to adopt the narcissistic defense.

          19. Contagious says:

            Hi Leigh! I find this interesting. Nature v nurture. How can two people from the same household be so different? Different genes. HG is the best. Psychopathy is known to be a condition you are born with. So many studies on the brain. It is different. Narcs? There are brain differences but some can be caused by parental abuse. CPTSD. I have read from other sources it’s all trauma and read about brain differences in narcs. So my guess is HG is right. Genes and unstable childhood. As to empathy as early as 2018, a study of 46,000 saw a genetic component in paths. I know contagions have studied brain differences. Is an empath born that way? No idea. But if why not propose a predisposition? I personally agree it is a scale. My ex is antisocial. Antisocial appears to bea lesser scale than psychopath? I don’t know but I do know that during my custody battle my ex was diagnosed by the top child custody psychologist in Orange County California ( his top attorney didn’t help) as antisocial and she told me not all psychopaths are blood thirsty. I thought Gary, Bundy , Dahomey when she diagnosed him. She actually told me to my face antisocial scan be good fathers. Good at teaching business, rules and discipline. Think Tony Soprano. And that it was better for my daughter to have both parents in her life. I would give the nurture and love she needed she said. She gave me 80% custody. I also worried that his wealth would attract her away. She said “ no” children go to the love. At the time I was abhorred. But now that my daughter is successful beyond my wildest dreams: full scholarship at LMU and computer science degree, in a sorority, occasionally works, studied abroad did a film minor ( my suggestion) happy, confident, lots of friends… my son too a boxer and 8 years in Marines… if I have any worries now as they are so ambitious and independent and… busy… neither chooses a relationship. They date but both are focused. Ok 20 and 22. Young. But I saved the Thomas train set, the books, I want grandkids … someday. Kids today say they don’t want kids. That’s my worry. Not the antisocial old man. He did ok. Psychologist was right.

          20. Leigh says:

            Hi Contagious, nature vs nurture. Both my children were nurtured the same way and yet one is narcissist and one is an empath. Then you look at me and both my parents are narcs, my environment was definitely a lack of control environment and there was no intervener. Yet, I’m an empath. Its that pesky little narc gene. I managed to not get it but one of my children did.

          21. A Victor says:

            Hi Contagious, I believe antisocial, ASPD, is an umbrella term for both psychopathy and sociopathy, maybe some others also. Psychopathy, as you said, a person is born with, sociopathy happens due to environment. Psychopaths can and do become surgeons, sociopaths often become inmates. I look at it like the sociopath is the wild younger brother of the disciplined psychopath. My ex is one or the other, I believe sociopath.

          22. A Victor says:

            Contagious, I am so happy that your husband died okay as a dad to your kids, that’s really great to read.

          23. A Victor says:

            Did*** okay!!! So sorry, my autocorrect took over!!

          24. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hi FYC,

            Good to see you, are you still following KHG? 🙂

            Yes, agree environment / influencers does appear to be the king pin in both ASPD and narcissism. I flip flop between the idea of the narc gene being dominant or recessive for that reason. Societal structures have changed drastically over the last fifty years and given that you need genetic predisposition plus LOCE for narcissism, I do wonder if the narc gene wasn’t dominant but held in place by the absence of LOCE in societies in general. More LOCE, more opportunity for a dominant gene, or more LOCE but a still a recessive gene, I’d need a lot of data to make my mind up on that. Numbers of normals, narcissistics and empaths versus narcs do suggest recessive I agree but then narc numbers do seem to be exploding and I question if that would be so visible with a recessive gene as the catalyst. Maybe there isn’t such a huge increase, maybe it’s just that narcs are more visible thanks to increased media and communication, or maybe I just see narcs everywhere in the media because that particular medium draws them to begin with.

            Biology isn’t my strong point but I read your attached article with interest, thank you for posting it. Yes, I have read about Fallon’s case too. Again it highlights the importance of family and environment in terms of how an individual with a psychopathic brain can develop. When the Narcsite blog pauses I go off and find more information about psychopathy and Fallon’s case is certainly not an isolated one by any stretch. I interact with two diagnosed pro social psychopaths who are very open about how they see the world. There is of course no emotional empathy but cognitive empathy is not to be underestimated in my view. Chemical love versus non chemical love is an interesting debate and one where I am currently seated right on the fence!

            The more I witness what goes on in the world, the more concerned I become in terms of LOCE, it’s the source of a lot of pain in the world I think.

            Lovely to see you FYC.


          25. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hi Leigh,

            Glad my thoughts on it helped. As the conversation on this thread progresses it reminds me that there are just so many variables that play into an outcome. Life itself is full of variables, time, place, this decision or that, all leading to different outcomes. We could think ourselves in circles if we replayed all of our choices over different things. I suppose the best we can do is accept our position, understand as best we can, amend if necessary and play the hand we have now 🙂 xx

          26. Leigh says:

            TS, I agree. There are so many different variables and influences. My husband’s family is filled with narcs and I’m sure that influenced her as well.

            Yes, I’ve accepted my position and now my truthseeker needed to understand. Knowing that it could have been a multitude of things, actually made me feel better because some things are out of my control.

          27. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hello Jordyguin,

            You changed your avi, the other one reminded me of how I used to write in school, head on one arm, scribbling away haha!

            Yes, the sudden traumatic event is an outlier almost isn’t it? Everything could be normal, two empathic parents even, and then sudden trauma jolts the narcissism into action. The flash fry as HG calls it, that would be heartbreaking, it just seems so very unfair to me.

            Yes, we do talk most about abusive rather than gilded LOCE. It’s probably why I still question my mum being a narcissist. I don’t really view my LOCE as a LOCE. I don’t see it as abusive and I don’t see it as gilded. Closer to gilded though.

            The abusive LOCE does seem far more conducive to the formation of narcissism. It echoes the self defence part of the self defence mechanism, gilded is tougher to imagine I think.

            Thank you for your kind comment. I was writing my first comment thinking, “ oh this could go horribly horribly wrong.” Haha!


          28. annaamel says:

            An overly generous or accommodating parent/adult can signify neglect to a child just as a parent who spends no time or negative time with the child. Children often want to see logical responses to their actions. If they do something they suspect is problematic, they want to see the adult responding in a logical way to their infractions. They want the adult to identify the infraction, and to put the time in to show that they both believe the child can behave better and that they’re willing to help the child achieve it. That shows care and love too.

          29. A Victor says:

            And to really throw a kink in this, my mom was the worse abuser between she and my dad, in most ways, but was also the Overwhelming Angel, and who also couldn’t allow us to represent her badly so I “earned” many a Girl Scout badge that I didn’t actually earn. So confusing.

            Then add in being the Golden Child of my dad, even though we all suffered his abuses equally.

            The ways that we can be messed up as humans are virtually unlimited and as varied as the individuals involved. Mix in that some will be affected by this and others by that and it’s a wonder any of us are sane.

          30. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Thank you, that’s really kind of you to say.


          31. Jordyguin says:

            Hi and thank you for your reply dear TS:))) Yes, your explanation is very light and clear, thank you for composing it:)🦋 (ah yea my other avi – you used to write like that in school – head on one arm, scribbling away:))That’s the most cutest position to write💓! and to spy on the clouds through the window.. My new avi is „the blue hour“ in the mountains💙, have you ever heard of it? It’s the hour before the sun rises. Apparently if you catch the blue hour you’ll be energized for the whole day:)

            Gilded LOCE interest me because I find it more difficult to detect perhaps. There are different settings of course. Some may be: the parent wants their best and might not be a narcissist at all, but the low self esteem for instance in a CoD want’s to repair or prevent a projected low self esteem in a child and starts overpraising it. Giving it core values about self worth (without embodying it themselves. which is very difficult for sure for a CoD). The child (NE) who never had a low self esteem to begin with, might turn to a N or narcissistic simply because the parent might a)project a lack of it onto the child and/or b)groom the „you’re the most awesome and better than anybody else“ attitude without realising it, I would think. Plus other factors perhaps. Sure there are many other possibilities with the gilded LOCE, I’d like to detect and recognise.

          32. Jordyguin says:

            TS, btw speaking of avi ! Is yours the left or the right eye of the Horus?

          33. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hi Annamel,

            That’s a really good point. Not addressing poor behaviours can signify not knowing what to do, being at your ‘wits end’ for example where the parent does care but seems unable to find a solution. Or it can be a ‘Oh I can’t be bothered with this’ attitude which essentially means ‘I can’t be bothered with you. I can’t be bothered putting the time in to work this out.’ Similar reaction, different root cause. I think that’s why LOCE is quite difficult. A parent could unwittingly cause LOCE but care deeply for the child. A narcissist could cause LOCE but the root cause is not having emotional empathy for the child. Some LOCE might be highly damaging to one child depending on presence of interveners and outside influences, less impactful on a child who has those outside influences and has a degree therefore of resilience to the negative behaviours. (talking gilded rather than physically abusive LOCE).

            I can imagine the gilded LOCE that HG describes, but as ever, there will be variations to it I think. Probably why we see responses such as ‘ the LOCE was insufficient for the narcissism to form.’ LOCE was present but there were factors which lessened the impact for whatever reason.

            Thank you, you have got me thinking.


          34. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hello Jordyguin,

            No, I hadn’t heard of the blue hour before but it looks beautiful from your avi. I don’t think many people pay much attention to the sky you know. I think they pay attention to the weather. I look at the sky a lot, I think empaths seem to do that more. It’s one of the advantages of the winter months. I’m awake early enough to watch the sun come up. I have a view of fields from my bedroom window, I do like that time of day, the calm, the silence before the world wakes up. It puts things in perspective for me sometimes too.

            Same at night, I walk the dog late so that I can enjoy the silence and the night sky, I always wish on a shooting star and seem to see them a lot.

            Yes, me too. I accept that my childhood environment would have incorporated a LOCE slant, but looking back ( and I have a good memory of my childhood) it isn’t obvious to me. I see some of my mum’s behaviours as problematic in certain areas, but I confine those to her not my environment. Mentally I cut off from her so many of those behaviours had little impact. Overall I don’t necessarily view my environment as being a LOCE. Plenty of interveners for me too I think.

            My dad is an empath but actually whilst we speak the same empathic language, we are quite different. I’d say he is a nicer empath than me haha! I’m most like my grandma, my dad’s mum. My grandma didn’t take any crap from my mum, she closed her down very effectively, I think I am likely most of my grandmas school and cadres. She likely had more Carrier than me. I think it was my grandmas influence that formed me into the empath I am. She was incredibly kind, but didn’t take any crap either! Steely, there was a steeliness about her.

            Interveners play a huge role in reducing the impact of a more gilded LOCE I think. They influence the child themselves and they make the LOCE less impactful on that child. It depends on the child themselves though, how the child’s natural way of being gels with the intervener. You can’t control that, the personalities have elements which match or don’t match. A bit like a key and a lock. You could have the most amazing key in the world but it won’t fit every lock.

            I wandered a bit there haha! Thinking out loud.

            My avi, left eye 🙂


          35. Jordyguin says:

            Hihi, just reading your response put me at ease as I’m there with you watching the sun come up; the view of the fields; the silence before the world wakes up or the night walks accompanied by shooting stars.. This little moments are so fulfilling✨

            Thank you for sharing your thoughts on LOCE:)) (The recent article – The Overwhelming Angel – represents for me a gilded LOCE in a parental situation I think. That overwhelmed kindness in a partner wouldn’t ring a bell, since would feel like home, I assume.)

            What connects you to the mysteries of Egypt if I may ask?

          36. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hello Jordyguin,

            I totally agree, those quiet moments have great value. For me it’s a connected feeling somehow. In some ways a feeling of insignificance, that in the grand scheme of things whatever battle we might be undertaking, it doesn’t really matter in the end. The sun will still rise tomorrow.

            I have no real link to Egypt. I travelled there many years ago. Of all of the places I have visited, Egypt stayed with me the most. I found it magical. I loved the Cairo museum but the Luxor museum was other worldly. A beautiful museum. It was the historical and religious aspects, the Egyptian gods, the passage of time, the heat, the smell, all of it. I was spellbound by the place.

            We visited the Valley of the Kings and as we walked through it, the hawkers approached selling perfume and jewellery. There was one old guy who didn’t crowd us, he held back from the others. He had silver jewellery, really beautiful, not the usual tourist trinkets. I bought a silver eye of Horus pendant from him, I rarely take it off.

            Horus held various roles in Egyptian religion. He has been known as the god of war and the sky but then later Horus appears again as the son of Isis and Osiris who defeats the evil Seth. I think I prefer the earlier representation. I view the eye of Horus as a symbol of truth and strength with perhaps a sting in the tail! I know it is viewed by many as a symbol of protection, a representation of the sky, the left eye being the moon, that works for me too 🙂

            I hope to go back to Egypt in the not too distant future. Have you ever visited ?


          37. FYC says:

            Hello TS, Sorry I did not see your reply until today. I never stopped following KTN. Life just impacted by ability to comment for a period of time. Thank you for your kindness. Lovely to be here.

            Your thoughts are quite interesting. I’m not sure how to frame this, but I’ll give it a go:

            “Healthy” narcissism (we all possess) is necessary for survival. Therefore, a degree of narcissistic traits is perceived and experienced by all or most as positive (survival, confidence, leadership, etc.). These traits aided humans to survive and thrive through the evolutionary process. My guess would be there is a genetic component to this capacity for “healthy narcissism” and a more positive, healthy environment.

            Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a defense/coping mechanism perceived as necessary for survival. There is a genetic component and the necessity for an environment (LOCE) to ignite the genes and to necessitate the defense.

            Given the above, one could argue that N genes are dominate since all people have a form of N traits. That said, a smaller percentage of the population has NPD. So if we exclude the broad umbrella of “healthy narcissism” and assume that NPD has specific genes unrelated to “healthy narcissism” we could argue those genes are recessive given the distribution.

            I do not know what actually is the case. My feeling is that much of what causes NPD is both genetics, and the deep influence of behavior passed down for many generations. We as a society value empathy now (emotional empathy for others has been studied for less than 100 years), but for a much greater period of time this was not the case. Perhaps it was on a personal level, but from a survival level, quite the opposite ruled the day. I see survival as a key influencing component whether perceived or actual.

            As for “chemical love”, I do not perceive this as love, but as attraction and infatuation. All people can experience this. I see love as much more than this. It is deeper and involves feelings, thoughts, choices, behaviors that are demonstrated long after the chemical “high” subsides. Attraction brings people together. Love and attachment keep people together. Sometimes for healthy reasons, sometimes not.

            Always a pleasure to read your thoughts TS. Hope all is well with you.

          38. A Victor says:


            “We as a society value empathy now (emotional empathy for others has been studied for less than 100 years), but for a much greater period of time this was not the case.”

            It is interesting that you mention this here, about two days ago my son pointed out to me that times when my parents were raised were more difficult for many and that this “toughness” was necessary for them to survive. So then the question is, how did empathy survive at all through those times in history? I am thinking there must be a gene or it couldn’t have. Thank you for that thought, very interesting.

          39. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hi FYC,

            No need to apologise, the thread got busy, replies are a long way from the original comments!

            Likewise, I really enjoy reading your thoughts, always so well researched and considered.

            Something else I read that made me think. NPD is a self defence mechanism that activates via LOCE if a genetic predisposition is present. Thinking about your point about empathy being valued more recently than previously. In some time periods and circumstances psychopathy rather than emotional empathy would be advantageous for the group or tribe as a whole.

            I was on a blog discussing horror films the other day. Stay with me here! Haha! We were discussing why people like to feel scared. What makes fear pleasurable etc. We moved to real life, why one person would hear a strange noise and go outside in the dark to investigate, why another would refuse to go outside. This comment got me thinking.

            ‘ A sound in the bushes can mean many things.
            The person that goes to check it out, that is the person that ensures the group’s advancement.
            The person that is reluctant and encourages them to turn around, ensures the group’s safety.
            You cannot have one without the other. They complement each other and this advanced the human race. Adaptations evolve because circumstances call for them.’

            Psychopathy could be regarded as a biological adaptation. NPD a behavioural adaptation in response to threat. In terms of traits being passed down through generations, the way humans form groups or tribes and are very much wedded to these groups, it does shed some light on why these cluster B differences form. HG performs a very specific function in his professional life. Without his psychopathy I would question if he could carry out this function effectively. His adaptations are necessary for the advancement of the tribe, just as our empathic adaptations are necessary for the well-being of the tribe. Different roles, different skills.

            I have wandered off point a little, but I thought you might find the above comment interesting 🙂

            I confess it’s a while since I visited KHG. I tend to have a thought, run in, dump it for consideration and then wander off again haha! It would be good to see that side busy again, I enjoy reading people’s thoughts there.

            I hope life has settled down for you now and you have more time to explore the things you enjoy.


          40. FYC says:

            Hi A Victor, I hope I am replying in the correct place. Yes, there are many studies on empathy. The first effort to study empathy was over 100 years ago, but it focused on what was considered “esthetic empathy” or the ability to project one’s own inner strivings, movements, and feelings into objects such as nature, art, architecture, etc.

            Here is a brief overview of how empathy study evolved:

            I believe this is the study Contagion is referring to:

            I also search for an overview on genes associated with empathy since there are so many studies over time. I think you will find this helpful:

            Bear in mind empathy is not a single gene. It is how the combination of genetics, neurology, behavioral environment and personality/temperment come together for each person. It is interesting to note other conditions spring from the same list elements of origin.

            I am grateful for HG and KTN providing such an accurate and effective model with which to understand the N framework. It led me to discover so much more, and to understand people at a much deeper level than before. All of these details are not necessary, but they are vastly interesting and I enjoy understanding things at a deep level.

          41. A Victor says:

            Hi FYC, I just found this comment! Thank you so much, this is fascinating and i am excited to look into these studies! A little one was born this morning (I’m doing the grandma happy dance!) so it may be a day or two before I can! But i really appreciate you sharing these links and your knowledge!

          42. annaamel says:

            Congratulations AV!

          43. A Victor says:

            Thank you all, Annaamel, Leigh, LET and WC! Yes, LET, that is so cool, we each have one a day apart!! Congratulations!! I’m so happy for you! That first one especially is so awesome because you actually get what it means to be a grandma! It’s the best thing ever!

            Mom and baby will on our end also, I wasn’t there but was getting texts from my other daughters who were, all night. 36 hours, wow, you’re a trooper! As is your daughter!

            I responded to your other comment earlier, on the other thread. Have fun with your new little one!

          44. Leigh says:

            So exciting, AV! Congratulations to Mommy and Daddy!

          45. lickemtomorrow says:

            Congratulations Gradma <3 Happy dance indeed. Hope all went well for both x

            As it happens, a little one made an appearance in our lives, too, and just a day before your little one was born. We have grandchildren born a day apart 🙂 That makes two of us doing a grandma happy dance! Mother and baby well, and I was fortunate to have the opportunity to be present at the birth. I have to say the primal experience of labour and delivery extends to others involved as I felt completely in sync with her as she went through it. So proud of her and I won't hold 36 hours being deprived of sleep against her 🙂 It's worth it when you hold that newborn baby in your arms <3 At the same time, I'm going to the recent thread posted about grandparents to have a venting moment there. Congratulations again, AV Xx

          46. WhoCares says:

            Congratulations to the two new Grandmas, AV & LET!

          47. Leigh says:

            Such joyous news, LET! New babies everywhere! Congratulations to the new parents!

          48. lickemtomorrow says:

            Thank you, Leigh 🙂 It’s an exciting time for all of us xo

          49. Leigh says:

            Hi FYC, thank you for sharing these links. I thought that last link about empathy was very interesting. They mention Somatic Empathy. It sounds very similar to what Mr. Tudor calls Contagion Empathy. What I found interesting was that somatic/contagion empathy is activated by mirror neurons. These mirror neurons cause us to react the same way we see something. Its fascinating to me. How do mirror neurons play into narcissism? Narcs mirror all the time. They steal our character traits. Do they still have the mirror neurons but maybe they’re broken or skewed somehow? I’m just surmising, of course.

            Again, thank you for sharing. It seems I have some more homework to do.

          50. Jordyguin says:

            Wooaaaa❤️‍🔥Other worldly yes! What a beautiful experience dear TS! Love it so! I used to read a lot about Egypt, about its mystery teachings and of course the archeological part. I’ve never been to Egypt. But I’ve been many times to the Egyptian Museum in Munich. I must spend time amongst History as much as possible. I crave the understanding of it :)))

          51. FYC says:

            Hi TS, It is getting harder to reply in the correct space in this popular thread! Yes, I find your thoughts very interesting and appreciate you sharing them.

            Your concept of psychopathy possibly being a biological adaptation made me wonder: Are we waxing or waning toward such adaptation? I think we could make an argument in either direction.

            Your ‘sound in the bushes’ example made me consider if curiosity or anxiety/fear (depending upon setting) offers greater motivation for investigation versus retreat? I am not a fan of horror films, but it reminded me of HG’s ex girlfriend who enjoyed them because they aroused her, and also this post on fear:


            Thank you for your kindness TS and your thought provoking comments. Always a pleasure.

          52. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hi FYC,

            Yes, really good question, would a psychopathy adaptation be waxing or waning?

            I might be a million miles away in my thinking here but I think numbers would stay relatively constant as a percentage of total population.

            My thinking there is if we view psychopathy as an adaptation then it needs to provide an advantage. No fear, no emotional empathy and a purely logical mind geared to self preservation.

            I’d go for the top 1% of the population and the bottom 1% of the population. Top 1% because these are the decision makers for the tribe as a whole, kings and nobility in previous generations. Bottom 1% representing poverty, desperation, increased violent crime rates. A survival kill or be killed mentality where rules only impede this survival.

            I think you would find higher prevalence of an adaptation within those two groups. Or, descendants of those two groups.

            I view psychopathy as independent from ASPD. I disagree with lumping both together. ASPD is environment based in my view. So in my thinking you could be a psychopath without ASPD or, you could be a psychopath and have ASPD thanks to the environment you were brought up in and parental influence.


          53. FYC says:

            Hello LET, I hope you are well. I agree that the DSM labeling is a mess and changes repeatedly over time. It seems since a consensus on the dark triad labeling could not be reached, they decided on a collective grouping of multiple and markedly different psychological conditions. Further, far too many studies conflate psychopathy with sociopathy as if they were one and the same. This does a disservice to a scientific approach to behavior study and is often used to further a researcher’s career goal to become an established “expert”. Very unfortunate indeed.

            Your thoughts on top one and bottom one percent are interesting. This could possibly add insight to the significant differences in IQ, impulsiveness and cognitive empathy of psychopaths versus sociopaths. So little is well known or documented (more so on in imprisoned sociopaths, but overall lacking).

            As an empath, some days it might be nice to have a switch to not feel things so deeply–to take a vacation from the contagion aspect of empathy, but only a vacation. I would never want to lose the gift of empathy entirely and all it brings.

            Thank you for your thoughts, LET. Very interesting.

        3. Contagious says:

          Victor, hi! There was a Cambridge study of 46,000 on empathy in 2018 that found a genetic link to empathy. So much work needs to be done.

          1. A Victor says:

            Hi Contagious, I agree, work to be done! I am glad to read that some is being done.

        4. Contagious says:

          I also think of capacity. Predisposition. I read another blogger saying a study demonstrated empathy remained the same over time. This would explain normal and empath. It seems a scale. Like anything else. Also can anyone explain how one “ grows contagian”? I did a rest and it showed carrier contagian with tiny amounts of savior, geyser and super. I identify the most with carrier as a lawyer and contagian as it fits my essence, my dreams and all I have read. But no idea what “ grow” means. It sounds independent of genes and even environment like something self directed? Personally I think dna is the most powerful aspect of self. I look at my children and although so much raised by me, I see so much of their father in them whether it is discipline health wise or temperament even facial expressions and reactions. I also read people who have narc parents and I don’t believe cognitive empathy can override emotional empathy or at minimum a genetic predisposition to empathy. What about feral children or the child raised by wolves, I wonder if any empathy study has been done or can animals influence empathy. Being raised with loving pets does make a difference. I know people who grew up with no one but their best friend the dog. I know Cambridge did a study on empaths and found a genetic link but how do you separate the environment. My uneducated gut is that there is a scale or predisposition at birth that a stable environment effects. So I am of course forced to believe what HG believes and there are many studies that agree and only one I found that contradicts ( but again the question was capacity) but I have questions, doubts that empathy has no correlation to genetics. I just don’t see how it can be separate from temperament, intelligence both cognitive and emotional and all that is still being developed. Hell I read today scientists are finding ways to reverse aging. It’s spooky. My gut may be wrong but at minimum I think the disposition, the capacity differs and that’s genetics. What makes it worse is that I read a traumatic environment can actually change the brain. So does it stop at birth? Again, I have read a lot about psychopathy and went to an LA museum where it discussed the brain differences. It seems that is at birth. I guess like everything else “ why”? How far back does the warrior gene go? But in the end, I guess when you have kids, it’s like Forrest Gump mom
          Said, you don’t know what you get. For me, it was a gift from God especially since my first child was accidental and I didn’t know. A gift from God. And they turned out better than I wildly dreamed. I would like to take credit and I did do many things right but I just feel they appeared with those genes inside like ganache.x

        5. Contagious says:

          To add more muck to the equation of nature versus nurture on empathy, neuroscience magazine published an article 1/28/22 stating there has been a shift from psychology to neurology… they are trying… one insight is that OxyContin hormone delivered usually through breast feeding has a link to empathy. OxyContin is involved in social attachment. But the author in 2022 said it would take about 10 years in this field to decide. Another point was mirroring. Contagian studies have been done on mirroring but this 2022 article indicated that mirror neurons in humans is indirect and relies on neuron aging studies that can’t 100% detect single neuron actions. This doubt contradicts if mirror systems explain acting emotion in humans ( he cites Graft 2009).

          In short, the study of the brain and empathy is incomplete at least stated by Neuroscience magazine in 2022.

          Whew. My thought is capacity, a scale, whether it’s OxyContin or whatever, there is something there that in a certain environment triggers it.

      3. Contagious says:

        But you are also a psychopath right? It is known that there are brain differences and no empathy. Correct? But aren’t those others born with some predispositions or brain differences? Or do you believe that trauma changes the brain? There have been studies on narcs that demonstrate brain differences such as grey matter. I also previously referred to a 2018 Cambridge study of 46,000 suggesting empathy has a genetic link. So much is both inherited and formed by environmental influences. I wonder what you think of cold therapy applied to narcs?

        1. annaamel says:

          I like a lot in your comment Contagious. I had to look up what Cold Therapy is though because I didn’t know if it as a treatment for psychological states. I have to say I can’t see how it could do anything to a narcissist expect make them feel very cold and perhaps help them physically as it helps athletes and others who give it a go. I have mentioned my dad on the blog before as a possible narcissist (I’m leaning away from it now but I still feel the dynamic weaves through my family somehow) but when he was in his 30s I believe he underwent hypnotherapy using sodium thiopental (I’m going off what my mother has told me but I think this was it) which was used as a truth serum to counter resistance and make the subject less inhibited in their responses. My father was, according to my mother, very self protective prior to this and she described it as tightly wound and easily angered (though he wasn’t violent). She said he emerged from this therapy (which is no longer used) like a different person. Much calmer, much more open and generous and caring. I only knew him after this treatment so I didn’t personally witness a change but I can imagine that if he was able to access and talk about things he’d been unable to access or talk about it might have given him a sense of immense relief.

  13. Lisa says:

    Very well explained, I’m always interested in why the non narcissist can’t see it. Even if they don’t see narcissism, why don’t they see the behaviour, however they label it. The fact that this book is called SPARE says it all. I totally agree that it would be incredibly difficult for Harry to admit this marriage isn’t working and she is not the person she invented herself to be while dating him. It’s not easy to have to admit he was wrong. The classic We Told you So !! In front of the world. He’s gone against everyone for this woman even if he did already have some issues of his own, had he married a different type of woman these issues may have been worked through and resolved in a completely different way. I predict the divorce from hell at some point which will make Johnny and Amber look like a Disney story. Harry will then come crawling back to the Royal family, he has no understanding of real life. But due to having these children he’s stuck with her for the rest of his life because even after the divorce the difficulties with her will never end, with the children being the perfect ammunition’s. I do wonder and I don’t know what any bodies thoughts are on this, I don’t know if HG still answers comments. But Harry being exposed to narcissists all his life (family) the very nature of the royal institution, I think this gives people a very high tolerance of the treatment dished out by narcissists, so it’s possible that his tolerance for this is a lot higher than a “Normal” person who just would not even go there. I certainly feel that has been the case with me, although I of course didn’t realise any of this.

    1. Isabell says:

      Brilliant explanation. Ty.

  14. Truthseeker6157 says:

    I watched HW’s speech of yesterday. I think she has been coached and advised to appear more relatable. My skin crawled watching her and I tried to figure out exactly what riled me so much.

    It was dripping in false humility and the utter insincerity turned my stomach. I saw it reported that she is an excellent orator. I disagree with that. You have acting and you have charisma, two very different things. HW acted the speech, I think it was the most obviously fake that I have seen her to date.

    Something else struck me. She reminded me of someone, It took a while to dawn on me. I think she is copying Julia Roberts, or trying to. Give up HW, you’re no Julia.

    Lastly, what is it with this conspiratorial whispering she has suddenly adopted?
    She did it when she spoke about Mariah Carey’s diva comment. She did it again in the speech yesterday. Is this a thing now? I recognise the attempt to speak directly to the audience, a show of vulnerability, but the whispering thing is new to me. I do think it’s very much like she is performing in a play, almost like a scripted aside to the audience.

    Her narcissism is showing. She’s rattling through personas trying to find one that works and she’s beginning to look very unhinged.

    1. Asp Emp says:

      TS, when you mentioned Julia Roberts, I wondered if you were referring to HG’s video on Harry’s wife at the polo match with Harry? It was also reported about Harry’s wife being compared to the character that Julia played in a film, something to do with the polka spot dress. Do you think Harry’s wife’s narcissism, with it being less evolved, can show up more when she is in the unaware mindset of “all this fuel, all these people, they’re all looking at me, they’re all here for me”, at the same time, delivering a load of bullet points from a script (the tele-prompter) to deliver the speech about her?

      1. Truthseeker6157 says:

        Hi Asp Emp 🙂

        No, I haven’t seen the polo match video. I dip in I dip out with HW, she grates on me to such an extent I find it difficult to read about or listen to anything about her these days!

        I recall the dress Julia wore in the film but don’t know what HW wore. My comment about her mimicking Julia was more to do with mannerisms, use of smile and intonation than anything else.

        In terms of HW and her narcissism showing, she appears to me to be more erratic and inconsistent in the way she portrays herself of late. In the circumstances where she is the main act and in front of a large audience thus well fuelled, I think she shows her narcissism through obvious acting, the playing of the role, the portrayal of a character of the moment through trait acquisition, likely with a touch of magical thinking thrown in for good measure. I imagine her visualising the cheers from the adoring crowd, flowers thrown on stage etc! I think it’s less the fuel and more the use of play acting to assert control over the live audience, viewers at home etc. she’s rattling through characters in an attempt to find one that best suits the environment she’s in.

        How’s you Asp?


        1. Asp Emp says:

          Hey, TS 🙂 You can always turn the sound off and just read where HW is “discussed”? It is not just about what HW wore, it was also her behaviours. In regard to HW’s appearing more “erratic and inconsistent in the way she portrays herself”, while I have no empathy for her at all, she’s understandably finding her threats to control becoming more frequent, and it results in her becoming more desperate. HW has not mastered the art of withdrawing quietly because she is less evolved, so has to continue to assert control by proxy (PR sugars etc) while asserting control directly to Harry (and the kids?) behind closed doors. HW cannot actually “see” it but she is scrabbling more and it shows (the erratic) through her interactions in public because of the increasing pressure from ie Spotify & Netflix. Maybe she is becoming more ‘distanced’ from reality because that is the nature of her “brand” of narcissism as a means of “coping” with the threats of control and the fact her narcissism is “fighting” for survival more these days so by going house hunting etc but still failing to accept that she (and Harry) owe a lot of money just because they have not delivered on their contracts.

          Despite Harry’s current mental & emotional health, I still believe he’s still wanting to deliver on his obligations as a husband, a father, as well as to the contracts (Netflix / Spotify) but deep down, he knows it is going to implode (if it hasn’t already started). We do not know for a fact how much Harry has imploded (mentally / emotionally) within himself as an individual.

          What I have just said above, reminds me of the MRN when I had been “supporting” him (as well as another friend at the same time), advising him that he cannot carry on working full time, doing up and maintaining two properties, a separate allotment etc, because his health and his finances cannot manage it. Both me and that friend advised him to sell one house and he’d still own the other outright! Now that I know he is a narcissist, the pity playing type, the friend described “Martyr” to me, as far as I am concerned, that MRN dug his own hole and can fkg live in it 🙂

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hello Asp Emp x

            I do still listen to a decent percentage of HG’s Harry’s Wife stuff, I think I’m just finding her increasingly aggravating of late. Fake. That’s what it is. Fake grates on me to a huge extent. At the moment, every time I see her picture I just want to shout “ Oh do eff off gobshite” Haha!

            Yes, I think you’re right. I think her control is being threatened left and right at the moment. Her behaviour appearing more erratic likely ties in with that.

            Harry might be a little more realistic in terms of recognising how much of a pickle they are in in terms of Spotify and Netflix. Both companies might find themselves struggling more as the cost of living crisis bites this winter. They are going to want a lot more bang for their buck I think, which means the gruesome twosome might find themselves being indulged far less than previously.

            I laughed at your tale about the MRN. People with real problems tend not to broadcast them too widely. I’m starting to recognise that as a MRN calling card. Different if they are pity playing to their IPPS, but socially or in a work environment, someone broadcasting problems is definitely someone I’d steer clear of now.

            Hope you are doing well Asp, I’ve missed reading your comments. Xx

          2. Asp Emp says:

            TS :-), hello. Both Harry & his wife are “all over the place” from different perceptions for the same reasons (ie their contracts). I wonder if Harry has actually realised that she is actually a manipulative gold-digger now that his inheritance has probably all but disappeared? Harry has never learned the concept of handling money (he had no need to before meeting her). She probably does not let him see the accounting books. I think Harry is really concerned about their finances. I don’t care about her, but I do care about Harry because I can relate to him.

            The UK government really fkd up big style, hence the huge impact of the costs of living crisis. If there is a power-cut, I can resort to using my multi-fuel stove, unscented candles, quilt and books 🙂 (as well as emptying the fridge) 😉

            MRN’s “problems” were real. To him. I don’t think he talked about it openly at work, only to his victims. Yes, it’s about recognising the red / black flags and applying the learning when and where appropriate.

            I’m ok. Thank you for enquiring. Are you managing ok? Your kids? Good to ‘hear’ from you 🙂

          3. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hi Asp Emp,

            Yes, Monumental screw up on the part of the Conservative government. I do worry for a lot of families this winter. It’s strange though, I live in a very touristy area. It’s half term this week and the place is mobbed with tourists. I don’t know whether people just don’t think ahead, or if they think ahead but bury their heads in the sand. I kind of expected there to be a noticeable fall in numbers but apparently not.

            Power cuts don’t concern me too much. In some ways I think our generation is very entitled and it might not be a bad thing to endure some inconvenience. The Ukraine war is real, innocent lives are being lost and power cuts might serve as a reminder of that.

            In terms of the cost of living, there will be genuine cases where people will be doing absolutely everything they can to make ends meet and will still come up short. I really worry for them. I worry for the elderly who are housebound with no means to improve their situation. There will also be a percentage of people though, who expect just to be bailed out. “Cost of living has gone up. Pay me.” There’s an entitlement there, a selfishness that I don’t like. How to separate the genuine need from the entitlement though? Not entirely sure if I’m honest.

            It will be a strange winter, hopefully a mild one. Your quilt, candles and books sound quite cosy to me! There’s something grounding about ditching all the tech I think.

            Camping sleeping bag haha! I might have to dig out my super duper arctic proof sleeping bag! Arctic proof my arse, I camped in summer and was still frozen in it haha!

            I have no idea what Harry thinks. He has been completely turned as far as I can tell. I think that’s a shame for his family rather than for Harry at this point in time. I think he is largely oblivious and largely complicit at least for the moment. It’s certainly possible he will see that he was played after she disengages, not before I don’t think. With all of the negative press coverage, he would have already come to that realisation himself if he was going to.

            I felt sorry for the Queen. I feel sorry that William has lost his brother at such a key time for him, but I’m struggling to have any sympathy for Harry. Maybe at some point in the future.

            Thank you, we are all well. I’m struggling a bit with gcse year. A lot actually, but I was always going to. Up and down, good days and bad days.


          4. Asp Emp says:

            TS, hello 🙂 Tourists and their sheep-herd mentality? In all honesty, I think people are just trying to continue with “normality” despite the whole economy mess.

            I agree with what you suggest in regard to power cuts. Having said that, how would the NHS cope without as much fuel availability? Will the members of government also be subject to electricity black outs too? Or will they have reserves made available to them instead of ie hospitals?

            Interesting what you say about the cost of living and those that expect entitlement compared to those who need it and may not get it. A prime example that the government paid out (during Covid lockdowns) to those on Universal Credit an extra £20 a week and there was an uproar when that stopped. There were other people on other benefits that did not get the same increase.

            I had my fuel stove checked, it did not need cleaning & I have logs from 3 years ago supply, smokeless coal bought when the guy came to check the chimney.

            As for Harry, well, people will have to see what he does. All I can say is that he is stuck with no access to direct support, I think he wants to escape but does not know where to start. As he does have neurological ‘condition’ on top of PTSD (mother); CPTSD (wife) as well as the troubles with HW’s causing him. His family are ok, they have each other. It’s difficult for some people to see it as clearly as others can because of their own experiences. There will always be 3 groups – Harry, or his wife, or his family.

            GCSE year, ah. You’ll get through that easier than some other parents will because they do not have access to learning about ET / LT management, nor do they have understanding about their own behaviours to situations / circumstances ie Trait or Empath Detector results as a guide. Stay on the path 🙂

          5. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hi Asp 🙂

            Good question about members of government and power cuts haha! I think those in the know and who can afford it will have installed electricity generators. I’m assuming hospitals have them already, power goes off and the generators kick in. They might well cancel surgeries at those times though which would lead to further backlog but if they are going out on strike then the backlog would be compounded anyway. I’m not a big fan of the NHS as you know. Actually, it’s probably more that I’m not a big fan of how the NHS is run.

            I miss an open fire in winter, nothing nicer than a glass of wine in front of the fire and yes your example about the additional benefit during Covid sums up what I mean perfectly.

            Doing my best to keep to the path xx

          6. Asp Emp says:

            Hi TS, I need to fix the issue of comments not coming through via the usual route on email notifications. There seems to be a link missing. Google is not showing some links when using that browser. When using MS, some comments do not seem to get through.

            I believe that the energy companies and the government had talks (and fixed their “agreements”) during this summer in regard to the Energy Price Guarantee before it was announced to the public – it does seem coincidental that my “estimated” usage for the next 12 months was the equivalent to what the EPG reflected and the grants had not been “factored” in. I argued that point. I found that I was not dealing with people who actually put customers first ie they “took” offence when I raised my concerns with them and their responses was short with no sign-posting, nor mentioning ie Energy Grant Fund etc. Granted, not all energy companies are necessarily similar in customer approach.

            NHS. It’s tricky during these times. They have more work and less money. Consultants won’t get paid as much because of the ‘delaying’ of such important versus urgent work. This is a reason why some dentists put paid-private clients first rather than those who cannot pay for private care (as per news ages ago). My dentist is good but the practice manager is such a narcissist and dictates (or rather, restricts) the choices of how I prefer to be contacted. Fk that.

            There are ways around the navigation routes within the NHS. There is PALS, or the Clinical Commissioning Groups as a route of sign-posting to complaints if you feel they have let you down.

            One reason why I disliked Liz Truss was the fact she was Secretary of State in 2016. Says it all really as to why she was crap for the PM and as PM. What gets me is that she may be entitled to the annual “expenses” as an ex-PM. I feel they should scrap that altogether for all ex-Pms and use that money more efficiently. They got paid when they did the job. End of. (my traits of Justice, Judgement and Machiavellian about the “system”).

            I’m glad it’s been mild so far despite the ever-changing weather 🙂

    2. Viol. says:

      Apparently, they’re quite popular in Germany. But then, so were David and Wallis.

      Ironic that she considers the UK bigoted. The “bigoted” UK was part of an alliance that stopped Germany from taking over world–and Germany’s bigotry didn’t consist solely of saying things that hurt one’s feelings.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        Violetta, I watched a programme about the Queen and 4 of the Prime Ministers that she worked with during her reign. Churchill was one of the PMs, he wrote in a letter something to the effect of the then Princess Elizabeth was really bright for a 2 year old. She put Tony Blair in his ‘place’ by implying that she had worked with quite a number of Prime Ministers and there had only been one Queen to date (at that time).

        So, was Churchill a good man doing a job that no-one else would have succeeded at?

    3. lickemtomorrow says:

      TS 🙂

      Have to agree with your disagreement on her being an excellent orator. There was nothing inspiring about the self centred speech. It was empty and vacuous, and as you say lacked integrity (false humility, insincerity). Definitely has zero charisma, unless you are a just as vacuous sugar who somehow thinks celebrity equates to charisma.

      Interesting you thought she reminded you of Julia Roberts. I wonder if she admires Julia Roberts as an actress? I don’t think we’ve ever heard who she admires more than herself! She reminded me of a very underperforming Hillary Clinton, tbh. Hillary is one of her backers and was only mentioned recently in an article where she explained why she took to wearing pantsuits. Harry’s wife seems to be favouring them now, too, though in general I have no objection to them. They can be quite chic and classy.

      I think you have it in terms of ‘conspiratorial’ when it comes to the whispering. Just between you and me is the sense you get from that. Very Mid-Ranger, I think.

      She does seem to be cycling through options when it comes to how she wants to present her public persona. Definitely aiming for the serious humanitarian and political contender. HG has a video up about her running for Senate. How many people’s nightmare is about to come true? I’m becoming unhinged at the thought of it 😉

  15. FYC says:

    Excellent post HG.

    I’d like to attempt to address some of the questions raised by commenters regarding why Harry does not see the manipulations of his narcissist. Many people tend to scrutinize (or blame) the person involved with the narcissist (N). Not out of malice, but from a safe place of observation at a distance and without emotional investment in the narcissist. As a safe, and especially well informed reader of KTN, it seems so obvious. That is until you consider all that is at play.

    1) Harry lost his mother at age 12. Considering public information, it is likely Harry’s primary attachments were to his mother and brother. When a child loses their parent, especially one they are bonded with, they are at least 30% more likely to suffer depression as an adult. Losing both his primary attachments after marrying his narcissist is not uncommon. Ns unconsciously or consciously make efforts to separate their targets from family and friends. This makes the target more pliable and desperate to retain the “love” of the N. Harry’s loss of his mother would only enhance his fear of loss (abandonment) would naturally be much higher than the average person.

    2) Harry has a N parent and relatives. Children are born with a set of genes that may or may not be expressed depending upon a variety of factors. Further, the neurological development of a child’s brain is a dynamic process and greatly influenced by caregivers and their environment. Harry would have been exposed throughout the development of this neural synapses (thought and behavioral super highways) by the behaviors and actions of his parents and others close to him. N parents are exceptionally good at manipulating and shaping the acceptance of their children targets. They do so through the methods that HG so clearly delineates. And it works. Often throughout life.

    3) Being from royal lineage, a great emphasis is place on appearances. Shame, blame and fear are utilized to keep those in the public view in check. Harry’s extended family would no doubt used this as a pressure. This can leave a non-N child in a quandary. They actually love their N family members, even when they know something is very wrong with their behavior. They also feel responsible (due to manipulation), unlike the N. So even if Harry does know that this is not what he envisioned, and that it feels wrong or is clearly amiss (as we all readily see), he would be reluctant to cut his losses. Not to mention the added influence of addiction created by intermittent reinforcement.

    4) Confirmation bias is a process that we all use unconsciously to aid us in feeling certainty and safety. The problem with this psychological phenomenon is that once we make a decision (in this case to marry a N), we unconsciously seek out “facts” that match and “confirm” our skewed vision/decision. This is not Harry’s fault, it is something everyone does. But in Harry’s position of alienation, he likely *hopes* to keep the family together and *hopes* things will improve. He may also be dulling his pain in a variety of ways to remain in denial–something not uncommon for targets/victims of N/APD partners.

    5) Harry needs HG to sort through this. HG is likely the only person to possess the awareness, experience and knowledge of this situation from all its many angles.

    1. Asp Emp says:

      FYC, great comment. Thank you for sharing it, good to see your valid points that you raise here 🙂

    2. WhoCares says:


      That’s quite an informed and balanced commentary on Harry’s situation. I appreciated reading it – it’s sometimes difficult to read a few of the uninformed and more vocal opinions on Harry in the commentary sections of the YT videos on Harry and Harry’s Wife.
      I see the effects of what you pointed out in #1 in my cousins who lost their empath mother at a young age and are now tied to their narcissist father and can’t seem to break away. The deep depression that I see in them at times is definitely a demotivating factor when they consider taking action.

      1. FYC says:

        Hello WhoCares, Thank you. I believe unless you are a ACON, it would be most difficult to understand all of the effects of that experience–they are complex and long lasting. I know we share that POV. I’m very sorry to hear about your cousins. What a painful loss, and it is entirely understandable that they suffer from depression. I hope they seek a greater understanding of what is at play and find a way to escape that life-draining influence. But we both know how difficult that is. We love our family even if we don’t like them. It’s very complex. Thank you for sharing that. Hope all is well with you.

    3. WhoCares says:


      This is my second response to your well thought comment. In addition to the phenomenon of “confirmation bias” and you pointing out that Harry likely hopes things will improve – I think that also pride may play a role. I have read many places that Harry has longed, for quite some time, to have a happy family like his brother William, and of course, in the golden period he probably thought he had found the woman he would make that happen with. So, while at one time he will have thought he finally achieved this goal…more recently he may be questioning his choice in a wife but unable to admit to himself or anyone that this is the case. It is so much easier to remain in denial, especially after achieving what one has longed for, for so long.
      I know this also from my own personal circumstances.

      1. FYC says:

        Pride can certainly play a role, but I believe the stronger influence is likely his early abandonment experience with the loss of his mother and likely their shared attachment style.

        My guess with Meghan and Harry is that she (unconsciously) performed her best version of his late mother during their golden period and temporarily fulfilled his needs–or so he thought. Combined with the seratonin/dopamine high we all experience when “falling in love”, it was enough for him to buy-in to her happily-ever-after vision, not unlike many of us who become ensnared by a N. Harry felt he was correct and he strongly desired to be right about what he believed. I understand that. Plus he was shaped by his family Ns to feel “at home” around Ns.

        Time and experience allows us to begin to realize what has been denied or repressed, but usually only when we are ready to do so. Often the pain of remaining the same must be so great that we are ready to consider a POV and take action on the new knowledge that can no longer be unseen.

        On a separate note, we once had a discussion on Carl Jung. Since that time I have read about Jung’s life and read some of his massive collection of works. He had very interesting and unique perspectives long before most would have considered them.

        1. WhoCares says:


          I’ve just read your many thoughtful responses. Thank-you.

          Interesting – your mentioning Carl Jung. I agree that he had some unique perspectives, and I have read much on/by him in the past.
          Now, though, I am of the opinion that he was a narcissist and, likely, that his many long-term clients (“analysands”, as he would have called them), and followers, would have been part of his fuel matrix – if I’m right, that is.

          FYC, I hope you are doing well also.

          1. A Victor says:

            Hi WhoCares, I believe this about Jung also. I have wondered if that makes his thinking, systems and so on less credible. I don’t think so since HG is a narcissist and I believe he is credible. But, it does cause me to approach them a little more cautiously, like the 16 personalities, did he just find this was something people were drawn to so he used it? There’s no scientific proof for it, from what I can find. But I know a lot of people who like using it and who feel the boxes work and so on. But if that was just created as a narcissistic ploy to draw people to him, then it’s off no practical use, only fun, if that. I really like that HG’s info is backed by the science, that makes it much more powerful and effective for those who might try to disprove it.

          2. WhoCares says:

            I am in complete agreement regarding the significant contributions & Psychology Today.
            This influence can definitely be seen in the history of psychology- I would hazard a guess that Freud, Jung and Adler were a triumvirate of narcissists…(with Adler, I am still on the fence, but leaning towards a narc.)

          3. WhoCares says:

            Hello AV!
            Just to clarify, I wasn’t stating that I question Jung’s credibility by stating I think he is a narcissist.
            I still think some of his theories are useful. I had an interest in personality theories and the psychology of religion (so much so that I did a specialization on the topic in university) back when I delved into his work. It definitely held some answers for me then and served a purpose.
            I know a lot of people still put stock in his personality theories and find them accurate.
            I much prefer HG’s Trait Detector, as I can see it’s practical application in the personalities of empathy I know here and in real life. Similarly, understanding empathic Saviour traits and how the narcissist uses religion to achieve the prime aims answers all the questions I ever had on the psychology of religion – and renders other theories for me, personally, as redundant.

          4. A Victor says:

            Hi WC!

            Thank you for clarifying, I agree that since of Jung’s theories are useful. I also agree that HG’s trait detectors are superior from the practical application aspect. Yes, there is redundancy in different systems quite often. I have considered trying to see how the 16 types and the Empath schools and cadres might line up but I never find the time.

            Yes, we do need to be careful for those who would misuse our thirst for knowledge in misleading ways for their own gain. That is true. Haha, and they are likely narcs!

          5. WhoCares says:

            Oops AV, forgot this point,

            Re: narcissistic ploy…any system offering self insight to individuals who desire self-knowledge can be used as a ploy by a narcissist.

          6. annaamel says:

            Jung was a trained physician (like Freud) and so both were adept at reading and understanding scientific studies. But both created their most tenacious theories from observation, I believe, borne out of conversations with clients. They did move out of a strict scientific realm but they were both curious observers who thought a lot about people and what made them tick.

            Jung created his cognitive functions on his observations. He recognised different thought patterns, different perspectives, different approaches. He created categories by which he could group some people together and also separate them. When we now take a MBTI quiz, and answer questions, we are choosing the descriptor that best matches what we think, feel or do and this eventually categorises us. This is also roughly how HG’s detectors work and his categories have also been created based on his observations. He’s noticed empathetic responses and patterns in particular people that differentiate them from people who don’t have those responses and then he’s identified that, within that group, some are more attached or easier to manipulate and some are more independent or some more ebullient and some more charismatic etc. This enables schools and cadres tone added beyond the basic empath classification. He’s done something similar with narcissists.

            Where these three thinkers differ I’d say is where they have focused their biggest divisions. HG has focused on narcissism vs non narcissism (understandable given his diagnosis) whereas Jung began with introversion vs extraversion (he was a natural introvert apparently) and Freud probably (eventually) based everything on the division between conscious and unconscious.

            I studied Freud at university but within a philosophy course, rather than within a science course. Once theories like this lose their scientific rigour (because they are not tested in the way scientists require) they tend to move into the realm of philosophical theories. They are still valuable, they just are discussed in a different way.

            I value HG’s classifications and I also value Jungs (and the Briggs’) and Freud’s. They are all useful and I think anyone who is prepared to think about human behaviour and offer insights into it makes a valuable addition to the canon of knowledge about people.

          7. A Victor says:

            Hi Annaamel, this is a great synopsis and I agree. And as I have on a couple of occasions considered how HG’s schools and cadres might overlap with Jung/Brigg personally types, this is what I’ve come to also. There is not an overlap since the point of each is two different things. Thank you for clarifying that also.

          8. FYC says:

            Hi WhoCares,
            I just saw your reply as well. I would not at all be surprised if he was! Yet many people who have made significant contributions in the history of the world were likely narcissists. Perhaps a degree of narcissism, or at least very strong self-confidence and self promotion, are necessary to proliferate and promote any concept? I would also guess that there are a few (certainly not all) that currently appear in Psychology Today.

          9. WhoCares says:

            Hello LET,

            I agree with everything that you said. Also, some people simply have a more difficult time admitting when they are wrong – I think it is due to a higher level of defiance and deeper sense of pride.

      2. lickemtomorrow says:

        WhoCares, we can remain in denial for a very long time, partly because we had a dream the narcissist fed into, as you say, and partly because it’s hard to admit we may have got it wrong. We try to make it right, perform incredible feats of rationalisation to make it so, bend over backwards to obtain those respite periods so longed for which we thought would be our forever after. When I look at it that way, it’s not hard to see how Harry could be so blinded still with the combination of her traits and his own.

    4. Joa says:

      FYC, I’m so glad you “stood up” for Harry.

      I probably do not understand the nuances of the “dependence” of the English on individual members of the Royal Family, but I do notice a HUGE sense of empowerment to comment, make judgments, verdicts and instructions about who should live. And most surprisingly, I learn, what this man feels and experiences from people who don’t even know him 🙂

      I hope, Harry will live the way he wants – making mistakes, facing the consequences, having happy and worse times. This is his life, his wife, his children, his family. His mind and his feelings. His life path.

      1. FYC says:

        Hello Joa, Thank you for your kind comment. As an ACON, I cannot help but understand some of the dynamics at play. After stumbling upon KTN and studying HG’s works (I still read and reread them), I then studied all contributing factors that affect us (ACONs) neurologically, psychologically, and emotionally. I wanted to understand how all things work together. I felt if I could do this, I would have more choices to be free.

        ACONs often repress memories and feelings. They deeply feel their experiences, but coping mechanisms are unconsciously utilized to avoid pain. (Interestingly this is not so different from Ns–just very different coping styles). In reality, it would be impossible for anyone to know “more” than the person in question about what they think or feel. Telling others what they think and feel is a common boundary violation of Ns.

        With regard to people being openly critical and judgmental of someone they do not know, I find it often indicates something they are not happy with that lies within. Mark Twain said, “Nothing so needs reforming as other people’s habits.” Or we could go biblical, “Seek first to remove the plank from thine own eye before seeking to remove the splinter from another’s”.

        Your comment about others making judgements on who should live is ironically funny, because all people and organizations that seek to determine who should live and how they should live never include themselves on the list of those who should not.

        I love what you said about making our own decisions and learning from the process (of failure and success). This is how all people learn. No need to judge and demonized the process. If humanity were less critical, we would have the freedom to explore and learn far more and fearlessly. Thank you, Joa.

        1. Joa says:

          FYC, I am also ACON. My father (stepfather, but raised me + gave me his last name + I got a new birth certificate and legally he is my father) is a Narcissist and I think a psychopath. My mother – I hesitate all the time whether she is a Codependent or a Narcissist (sometimes it’s hard for me to explain her behavior in favor of the former option…).

          As ACON, I absolutely do not suppress memories and feelings. I have an excellent memory and I have a huge “memory bank” from a very early childhood. I do not avoid pain, I even desire it, and unfortunately sometimes I provoke it.

          Only once in my life, I “erased” the memory as a teenager (rape – in every opening of my body) for almost a year. As if I had pushed that memory aside to deal with it, when I got stronger. And I dug out that memory very carefully, bit by bit. Repeatedly. Today I can tell every detail, every nuance and every minute of this event, every word spoken then, describe my feelings exactly in each of these moments – with feeling now only disgust, but not the present pain (just a memory of pain!).

          I am ACON, who is very self-centered.


          Yes! Your two quotes describe exactly, what I meant. This is how I try to live, and this is how I live (with little mishaps).

          That’s why I’m completely not interested in the Meghan series. I believe, that a large proportion of women are interested in this subject under the guise of education, and in fact, they focus attention on the other woman so as not to be concerned with themselves. Some women envy her beauty, some status, and some… a man. Too often, I see “hot” comments, almost hateful, to humiliate and show superiority, to qualify this unhealthy interest as “learning.”

          I believe, that women attack each other too often. They treat it as competition. They dance to the rhythm of what men design. They break down into small things. Women should be supportive and help each other. Only a woman, who is strong in this way, can be a partner and support for a man. A woman must be strong with a feminine strength, not a masculine strength.

          Secondly, Meghan’s interest, whatever she is, only builds her “brand”. She is given attention, time, energy. If it’s not worth it, what for?

          On the other hand, I am interested in all the people with whom I have some interaction. Most of the women on this blog interest me. I am also interested in HG. I feel unsatisfied, I want more. Open up and tell about yourself, about your essence. Let’s compare our thoughts, feelings and experiences. Nothing teaches better than the mutual exchange of “yourself”. This is the best form of education and investment in oneself. It is also the greatest gift, you can give to another human being – yourself. Not judgments about others.

          Thank you too, FYC. I read your post with pleasure. And I felt the warmth of your fire. Thank you 😊

          1. FYC says:

            Hi Joa, I’m sorry I did not see this until now. WordPress is not consistent with its notifications. Thank you for your kindness. It is good to know you are not repressed in your memories. I remember back to the age of three, yet I was unaware I had repressed many memories (none as tragic as yours) until both my parents had died. Then I started remembering things I had repressed. Denial and repression are coping mechanisms. But the more a person can face their experiences and memories, the healthier they become. So you are doing very well indeed! I don’t know how self centered you may be, but all people are to some degree. This is a part of our survival. You say you are, yet you express genuine interest in real people in live whether in person or in blog. I agree with you I have virtually no interest in this topic, I just fell many do not grasp what is involved and for that reason, I am grateful HG has taken this on and done a fine job with exposing the behaviors. I wholeheartedly agree about judging others and I too feel your intent and warmth. Thank you and take care.

          2. annaamel says:

            Hello Joa. I’m so sorry to read about the awful incident you mention in this post. I’m horrified and have even more respect for you and your resilience now. I also appreciate your words about women being good to each other and about refraining from unkind and harsh judgements about people who might be making small deviations from what we’d like them to do and are living their lives and learning how best to do it.

        2. A Victor says:

          “ACONs often repress memories and feelings. They deeply feel their experiences, but coping mechanisms are unconsciously utilized to avoid pain. (Interestingly this is not so different from Ns–just very different coping styles)”

          Thank you, here it is! This explains me! Haha! I’ve been saying this but didn’t realize it was common until this comment. I feel like others, even here, have not understood what I have meant. But, it’s “often”. Thank you!

          1. Joa says:

            They understood, they understood 🙂

            When FYC wrote this about suppressing feelings – I immediately thought that AV used to be in this group ACONs 🙂

          2. A Victor says:

            Thank you Joa, that means more to me than you may realize. I have felt at times like some of anomaly (of empath), I think even HG write somewhere that this wasn’t his experience with empaths. So I’m very relieved to read this.

          3. Leigh says:

            Same here! I have very little memories or feeling surrounding my childhood.

          4. FYC says:

            Hi A Victor, I am sorry I did not see your comment until now. I’m so glad you found this useful. You are most welcome and I agree, it feels good to be understood!

  16. oldcrow says:

    Actually I wonder how many psychologists and psychiatrists have noticed harry and his wife. The dynamics is quite an example of a teaching tool.
    For me, I’d like to know what disorders Harry suffers from. It’d make it easier for me to pity him.
    My heart goes out to the Queen and Prince William. They must be suffering. It’s hard to admit there are times you have to let go of a family member, to save yourself and the rest of the family.
    What’s most worrisome is will she become physically violent towards Harry or others around her.
    Once upon a time I was a police officer. I saw many people much like Harry’s wife. Some became extremely violent, when they lost control of the plot and chaos was the end result.
    Hopefully Harry’s wife has her next target in sight. She’ll go ahead with the discard. Then and only then it will be safe for Harry’s family to help him pick up the pieces.

    1. lickemtomorrow says:

      oldcrow, that last paragraph was quite comforting compared to the one that came before it.

      I think Harry’s wife is too much of a cowardly mid-range victim narcissist to become violent in the circumstances. What she could push Harry to is another story. That is also a concern when it comes to the victim of the narcissist. There is a big question mark over who (if either of them) will end the relationship, but it’s coming close to the end of its 7 year tenure. I think she’s still got too much riding on him, but at different times the cracks have shown in public and the concern there is also they are a high profile couple which means even if things are bad they – or Harry – may be inclined to put the ‘happy face’ on things for the sake of the public persona. He’ll be gripping to it even more tightly knowing how many bridge he’s burned to get to that place. I do believe an element of pride also keeps Harry bound. Some of his own narcissistic traits are keeping him there as well as hers. Best case scenario is the one you offer where she gets bored and moves on.

    2. Joa says:

      I think not many. And that’s at most in Great Britain.

      In my country, most people don’t even know who this couple is. Completely irrelevant. Nor is anyone much interested in the English royal family. Rather, it is treated as some isolated oddity, relic and bizarre obsession of the English 🙂

      The story of Diana is known – from an ordinary girl to a palace life + a tragic ending, such a story will always find admirers.

      Whereas, the world of global politics and the politicians of many countries themselves, including their private lives, are commented on more widely.

    3. Viol. says:

      Will she try to provoke him into violence towards her so she can be the Victim?

      1. WhoCares says:

        Oh wow – Viol. – that’s one I never thought of. Harry does have significant anger.
        My mother was very good at, attempting, to provoke violence in empath’s (or putting herself in harm’s way, so that she could then claim the victim.) She did it with me, with my father and with her second husband.
        We, all three, escaped her before that could occur – none of us were actually violent people. Just abused people.

        1. Asp Emp says:

          WhoCares, I agree, Harry does seem to have anger that is visible. I don’t think he lashes out on people, or animals, maybe a door or two? “just abused people” – yup.

      2. Witch says:

        I doubt she would do that deliberately, and I think she would be in complete shock if it ever happened. I believe she quite literally thinks she is a child of god and nothing like that would ever happen to her because she’s such a good person.

  17. lickemtomorrow says:

    Lots of factors to consider in terms of Harry’s non-response to his wife’s lies.

    He is being manipulated.

    He is also a prisoner. Each time he accepts her narrative or allows it to be presented without countering it, he becomes complicit, thus adding another bar to the cell where she keeps him imprisoned. It would be very hard after the fact for him to come out and disagree, ultimately discrediting her. It would be like discrediting your own self. She has so thoroughly intertwined their stories that you cannot have one without the other, or the salt without the pepper as she suggests. She has convinced Harry that her resentment is his resentment, her envy is his envy, her goals are his goals. He is her and she is him – children are not the only extensions. Stepford wives become extensions of their narcissistic husbands. Harry is a Stepford hubby and has become an extension of his narcissistic wife. It might be a lovely prison, but it’s still a prison.

    Harry’s wife also has a habit of alluding to things without coming straight out and saying them. This is infuriating and has been picked up by one Real Housewife of New York, Bethenny Frankel, who unloads on Markle in the press:

    “[Meghan says things like]: “I want to separate myself from the royal family, I was treated horribly [but] I’m going to [say] this in these hidden messages, this Morse Code to the public that’s not going to directly say what I’m saying but everyone in the royal family and in Great Britain understands exactly what I’m saying.”

    ‘At least say it! Rip the goddam Band-Aid off. Say they’re a bunch of a***oles, they’re uptight, white racist a***holes. Say it or don’t!”

    At the same time she better have the evidence to back it up.

    One journalist commented the veiled threat she issued to the RF in The Cut article was the equivalent of leaving a horse’s head in the Queen’s bed … pretty much says it all.

    That is the point where it becomes harder for me to have empathy with Harry. She is offering a threat, albeit indirect, to his family. At the same time, she has created a situation where he now sees her and their children as his only family. She has convinced him that all threats come from outside now. All the while he is not seeing the biggest threat lies within. What will it take?

    1. Asp Emp says:

      I like what you wrote here, LET. Oh, yes, Bethenny, she’s a character and a half, isn’t she? I have watched the ‘Real Housewives’ programmes, they are entertaining! When they have their claws out, they can really go for it! Harry’s wife will not have much evidence to ‘back up’ on because the lies are ‘bouncing’ back on her. I think Harry’s co-morbidities further impact on his ET / LT, I cannot ‘see’ what it could be specifically because there is not a great deal of video ‘evidence’ as such to observe it over a longer period. I think people also may have forgotten that the narcissism can be genetically passed on, alongside with other neurological ‘differences’ which makes both narcissism and the ie ADHD more difficult to ‘separate’ and determined. A prime example, Johnny Depp (narcissistic) and ADHD, but maybe because he had, some how, “conformed” to society (“moulded” himself / by others) to fit in and his ‘differences’ became less obvious as he got older (apart from the times when he was filmed at home, while under the influence of drink / drugs). Harry, being slightly younger and not having spent any real time to ‘learn’ what he is, has not ‘developed’ his own characteristics that are not “created” by conditioning from other people? That may be partly why he has not ‘created’ his own backbone? He had always been “forced” to rely on others following Diana’s death, granted, not all those people are / were narcissists. Good to read what you wrote, LET 🙂

      1. lickemtomorrow says:

        Hey AspEmp 🙂

        Not a Real Housewives person myself, but when I read what she said I think she hit the nail on the head. She came across in that very straight talking, no bullshit, NYC way (if I could call it that). She reminded me of Trump in that way, too. Maybe I should check the Housewives out because I’m sure it would be entertaining 😉

        Apart from the ‘innuendo’, the lies are definitely bouncing back on her. She’s managed to offend people in just about every English speaking country who also supposedly put her at the top of the Spotify tree. Something definitely doesn’t add up there. The South Africans are livid! Brits can’t stand her. Aussies think she’s a “tosser”. Americans don’t seem to have much time for the Duchess, apart from those attempting to promote her.

        All this, of course, only hurts Harry as he must feel like they are battling multiple fronts of antagonism. I liked HG’s description of soldiers in battle and the breakdown that can occur when the floodgates begin to open under enemy attack and retreat becomes spontaneous. They can’t keep fronting up to battle when the weight of her lies threatens to overwhelm them. At the same time, I’m yet to see sufficient evidence that they’re giving up any time soon. It will be interesting to see how this week goes for Harry, and his favourite cousin, Eugenie, is now living overseas, so they’ve lost what little family backup they still had in the U.K. They should have given up the lease on Frogmore Cottage, but that equates in Harry’s wife’s mind as giving up control and they’re able to leave a nice little thorn in the side of the RF by keeping it for their occasional unwelcome visits.

        Interesting that you are wondering if Harry has any neurodevelopmental issues which could affect his thinking and his actions also. I’m wondering if it’s possible for a narcissistic woman to strip a man of his ‘backbone’? A man doesn’t need to be macho, but it will be obvious when he is cowed in the context of a relationship. I think Harry was traumatised by his mother’s death and possibly sought to please others as a way of gaining approval and regain the love he lost when his mother died. I imagine Diana would have accepted both her sons unconditionally – that’s the type of mother she was – but without her he was possibly caught in the narcissistic dynamic with other family members and we know for the most part that means pleasing the narcissist. I could go on, but I’ve said enough already in terms of making conjecture about Harry, just wanted to acknowledge that if he is CoD in nature it’s quite possible he never had the chance to develop a strong backbone and the manipulations of the narcissist will have made every attempt to remove the challenge a backbone can bring.

        You have given me more food for thought, AspEmp, as always <3 Thanks for inspiring a level of lateral thinking again xox

        1. Asp Emp says:

          Hello LET 🙂 RE: Real Housewives, I don’t avidly watch but there are different locations and I honestly cannot choose one specific, they all seem to have a diva or two, shall we say? 😉 Yes, Harry’s wife is actually running out of countries to try to make her “mark” on the world. In my view, the RF should remove any properties that belong to the Crown away from the ‘clutches’ of Harry’s wife until he gets rid of her. Same with the titles. Not as a punishment towards Harry but to stop her using the titles etc for her purposes.

          Thank you RE: your consideration whether Harry has further neurological issues. Harry is a very vulnerable victim, in more than just narcissistic abuse. I think he does have a backbone, a strong one but she has his ‘pods’ in a vice. Diana protected Harry in a way that made him more susceptible to bullying, maybe? Yes, it was unconditional on her part but also ‘nobody will hurt my boys’ shielding.

          RE: Harry / CoD, probably most likely. Maybe similar in the way I may have been “created” but I am also independent, if that makes sense. It’s the understanding oneself that greatly changes a person’s way of looking at their inner’ self. Harry will not have had a form of ‘inner peace’ since his mother died and he needs guidance to assist in taking his ‘life’ back (as FYC suggested in her comment, she made some great points 🙂 ).

          Thank you, I always enjoy our conversations 🙂 Inspiration comes from being inspired 🙂 xx

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            AspEmp 🙂

            Reality shows are made for diva’s 😉 That’s why people can’t get enough of them, the drama is too enthralling. I get sucked into an occasional reality show for the same reason (who thought cooking competitions could provide so much drama?), but the Housewives isn’t one of them so far. I did watch the Desperate Housewives series long ago (for at least two seasons) and thoroughly enjoyed that. Might have been where they got the idea for the reality show. There are quite a few locations now, as you say, so not sure which I would choose before getting the popcorn ready. It’s a guarantee you’d want popcorn!

            I think I’m getting enough drama from the Harry and Harry’s wife saga, which never wanes and sadly has ramped up with the Queen’s passing. I think the competitive element the narcissist generates is going to go into high gear, and we’ve probably already seen a sample of that with the issuing of the image of the Harkle’s at their ‘summit’ coming just a day or two after the issuing of the image of the new ‘fab four’ of the monarchy. No place for Harry and his wife anymore “as they continue their lives overseas.” That was a classic line from King Charles’ speech on becoming Monarch, subtle yet concise, basically ordering them never to return. Here! Here!

            I know that doesn’t sound very sympathetic to Harry, but until he disentangles himself from his wife there should be a hard line taken. How else is he to wake up to the narcissist except by being allowed to be sealed into the coffin she has created? Still sounding harsh, even to my own ears, but the damage that has been done by both of them, and continues to be done, ensures they should not be given any more opportunity to continue. I’m in agreement with you that the reasoning behind it should be to pry Harry from her clutches, which unfortunately means hurting him in the meantime as well. In fact, it will be hurting Harry’s own family to do what has to be done and it’s a story that may be familiar to people who have had to try and pry a family member away from a narcissist. The boundaries that necessarily get put into place hurt everyone, but it’s really the narc who has caused the problem which makes everyone else suffer.

            I’ve read some interesting things about Diana and the children recently and your thoughts about Harry being sheltered or shielded by her has come up on the radar. Children who are seen as more vulnerable by a parent may indeed be more protected by them and, if that’s the case, then Harry will have been left even more vulnerable after her death, and likely experienced it in a different way to his brother. He may have suddenly felt incredibly exposed in the circumstances, and not just in the sense of being so young and walking behind his mother’s coffin. That is a great deal of exposure for a young boy who potentially didn’t have many resources to cope, his mother providing the covering which had now gone missing.

            I don’t know if any of that is correct. I’ve read some very negative things about Harry even in his younger years that could lead me away from thinking he is an empath. Perhaps it’s the empath who’s been stripped down by the narcissist/s, enabling or forcing their narcissistic tendencies to come to the fore. If that’s the case, his wife’s vice like grip on his “pods” might just disable him permanently from ever being able to find his way back. I think Charles is preparing for that.

            I’m not sure Harry is still on the brink, and having lost his grandmother now in the manner he did – after refusing to visit her and his wife damning her again – the only thing left to be said will be what is contained in Harry’s memoirs.

            It could be the final nail in the coffin I mentioned. Sadly, he will have hammered it in himself.

          2. Asp Emp says:

            Hello LET 🙂

            Divas! Hahaha. Yes, Mariah Carey 😉 Reality shows. I watched ‘Married On First Sight UK’, just to see why this programme was “invented”. Seriously?! I am not fascinated in the programme itself, but, these people spend 30 days with a person they had never met before and they were ‘matched’ scientifically. I prefer the ‘Real Housewives’ for the entertainment (LOL) but have not watched any recently.

            Yes, Charles giving his speech and not saying their titles, only the names was interesting but not surprising. In fact, it was quite revealing. Obviously, Harry’s wife will not “understand” it (LOL).

            I agree to what you say where Harry is concerned. This is probably the ‘angle’ that William, Catherine and others have taken and still giving Harry the option to communicate with them without Her being present.

            Yes, Harry’s loss (mother) could be likened to a day old deer being left in the middle of a field with nowhere to hide, no mother around – just left to be prey to other animals? The way you described it is basically similar to how I would have been after my father died – you really do understand it. The additional difficulties would have been the underlying / unseen neurological misunderstandings of oneself at that age.

            Anyone who does not know about my past, my experiences would probably “suggest” that I am a narcissist because of my behaviours that showed my aggressiveness in LOCEs that made me uncomfortable to be in. Around my grandmother, that “side” of me was not present! She was my security & safety.

            Harry is totally and utterly ‘exposed’, in the public eye and having to maintain a ‘facade’ of his own (mask, we all ‘wear’ one around different people in our lives). You had your own ‘mask(s)’ in your past, for your own experiences (and reasons).

            Just to suggest, recall HG’s article ‘Who’s The Daddy?’ – the behaviour of the victim when she is in that environment. When I first read it, I wrongly thought, is this a Lesser? Now, with 2.5 years learning, I can ‘see’ the differences.

            Harry has his own ‘darkness’ which would have been made bigger while with that thing he married. He will regret releasing his book, should he escape and obtain some clarity into what he is and why he became the way he is.

            Good to talk with you LET 🙂 Hope things are well with you 🙂 xx

          3. lickemtomorrow says:

            AspEmp 🙂

            Thought I might have gone too hard on Harry with that last comment, but I see you’ve taken it in your stride and added some more thoughts which help to add some more insight. The comment about your father and your sense of exposure after his death went straight to my heart <3 I can imagine you would identify strongly with Harry in that respect and understand what it is to lose a parent at an early age, even more sorrowfully the parent who had protected you from the narcissist. The lightness of being you felt around your grandmother gives a sense of how much those remaining layers of protection meant to you. Children thrive in environments where they feel safe and loved. Even an ounce of that can help to make a difference. That's to counter some of the helplessness we feel when we know that we can't be there all the time to protect them.

            You give a good example of how the different environments forced you to cope in different ways, and necessarily allowed some narcissistic traits to come to the fore as another means of protection. It's good to know we can also develop an appreciation for that side of ourselves. Your Asperger's would no doubt have created additional difficulties for you with the lack of understanding around that. I imagine misunderstandings would have made you more defensive, and that's where those narcissistic traits come to the fore as well. Those are some of our 'fight back' traits and it's likely Harry felt he had a lot to fight back on in the circumstances. Certainly the paparazzi as they were blamed for his mother's death. What a shame his wife knew how to play him like a fiddle. It's a fact she can't get enough of the paps and will orchestrate situations for headlines.

            Harry does have his own darkness, I think, which is why sympathy is lacking at times, and she has exacerbated that darkness with her own. They are trying to hold back the tide now with the book and Netflix, at least that's the impression we're given, but if it's anything like what has gone before (rubbishing the Royals) then I don't see how anyone could be talking about a "year of reconciliation" … I don't see how they could be talking about it anyway. Wake up RF!! If you bring this serpent back into your midst it will be the end of the monarchy. There will be a repeat of all that has gone before because Markle can't help being what she is and is designed to destroy anything good (relationships, friendships, staff, children, family, unity, etc.) They've blanked her sufficiently now – and Harry along with her – that the drawbridge should be pulled up for good. Charles got it right initially.

            MAFS?? A fascinating concept, but I'm too jaded to watch any of those hopeful romantic TV shows now, even with a scientific basis. Certainly my eyes have been opened more since I've been here to the 'evidence' that presents itself when it comes to people and relationships … probably one of the reasons I can't watch those shows. I doubt the scientific formula has calculated for narcissists being in the mix.

            AspEmp, always good to chat with you and things are well here 🙂 Hope all is well with you, too xox Even though I've been busy, I've missed my companions over the summer months and the inspiration they bring <3

          4. Asp Emp says:

            LET, lovely to hear from you too 🙂 I am just glad you and I can have a conversation and be ourselves as we do it. I did not think anything negative when I read your words about Harry. Having said that, thank you so much (hugs for that too) for your words of understanding it from my view.

            In my view, Harry would be welcomed back within his family but I think on a different level ie not a Senior Royal because of what he has done, I suppose? Certainly not with his wife around though.

            The MAFS is not “romantic” in the sense of the word 🙂 I am appalled at such a “concept”, it is just bordering utter nonsense like ‘Naked Attraction’ programme, (OMFG!), of which, I would not watch again.

            Good to see that you are ok 🙂 and thank you xx

          5. Asp Emp says:

            LET, regarding the ‘Married At First Sight UK’ series. I had wondered how soon would the facades drop, if any of those people are narcissists. At first, the couples are “fwiends”. I think there is one couple where there is a narcissist & empath and another couple are both narcissists. These two couples ‘clashed’ more than once. (LOL). One person, I think is the whiny type MRN but showed aggressive outbursts when “pushed”. Another may be a Lesser (somatic) that held back on the physical facade, if you can understand? He may have married a higher echelon to himself. Both these people showed the similar “I am obtaining and claiming my asset” approach on the same thing and both said it was ‘coincidental’ that they used the same wording without informing the other (as if it was telepathy / ESP type -laughing as I type that). The environment that all these couples were in was similar, so it was easier to observe them, from a distance 🙂

          6. lickemtomorrow says:

            AspEmp, that’s actually really interesting 🙂 You’ve taken what we’ve learned here and overlaid that on the series, which is a bit different to going in with the romantic notions I was talking about. It’s all in the approach. If you can watch in a more ‘detached’ and therefore ‘scientific’ manner, it’s possible to observe all kinds of interesting things. The challenge would be to not allow any emotional thinking to enter in because these reality shows are designed to trigger our emotions. That’s how they get us hooked. If I may say, it’s emotion that gets us hooked, not logic. Even sensation drives the psychopath as they lack the normal emotional range. It’s what makes us feel alive.

            A long time ago I sensed these programs (i.e. reality shows) tapping into my emotions and eventually decided I was done with some of the overload. Behind every singer, talented performer, cooking sensation, etc., is a human story and the more tragic, the better. It cheapened those stories for me because they were being used to garner sympathy, and I felt my empathy was being cheapened as well. It wasn’t there to toy with, and serves a meaningful purpose with which does not align with the purposes of entertainment value. It’s like I’m being ‘used’ when I watch those shows, which is why I decided not to invest. I’d rather invest my empathy on real life needs and scenarios, rather than manufactured entertainment industry ones (even though those stories are still deserving in their own right).

            Well, I’ve really wandered away from the original thought there which is the scientific value in observing these couples and you made it sound really interesting, especially layering over the narc aspect. Human behaviour is interesting. Throwing random people together (on a scientific basis) in the most intimate relationship any of us are ever likely to encounter is definitely fodder for intrigue 🙂

          7. Asp Emp says:

            LET, when I took into your consideration that these programmes are designed to get us hooked via ET, maybe it is the Aspergers (or mine, specifically) that has the emotions working differently? Interesting when you suggest ‘logic’. Let’s consider that narcissists may (granted, not all) become “obsessed” with this kind of programme because of their in-built, yet, unaware, mimicry behaviours to ‘learn’ their version of romance and interactions (aka character trait acquisition)? Aspies may not find this kind of programme “interesting” because of the different nuances their interact / communicate with other people. How many aspies are actually considered ‘people’ persons?

            Interesting second paragraph, “manufactured entertainment” makes you feel “used”. Do films give you similar ‘responses’? I’ve a ‘date’ on Saturday night, with the Star Wars films (Part 9). Why do I mention it? Because when I was watching the 7th Episode (tv 2 weekends ago), it took me back to when my father was around but I felt ok. In fact, it made me feel that I was glad to have had him as my father. I would have felt sad in the past and struggled to enjoy the film as intended (ie entertainment). Maybe I have ‘dealt’ with the trauma in the way I had needed to since he died? Does this mean I am less sensitive? Not necessarily. Maybe since I have been reprocessing my thoughts / emotions differently, so I also do this instinctively because of the awareness, even if my train of thought has not quite been “activated” in that very moment?

            Thank you for your thoughts regard to my approach at this programme. It did prompt me to think that their scientific “calculations” need some improvements! Their ‘system’ is continuing some empaths to be “matched” up with narcissists just because the empath’s responses to the original application may not have “weeded” out, nor detected their addiction to narcissism, so the empath may be answering their application with their unawareness? I, for one, would not apply for such a “method” ie that programme because their ‘sums’ would be wrong. I would be surprised if any aware empaths would choose to apply, especially after investing their time & effort in understanding themselves better where HG’s work is concerned. These kind of programmes is basically the same as online dating.

            Having said that, it was interesting to observe what the panel of “experts” were saying about these couples / individuals. I thought to myself, no, you’re wrong. How can someone class themselves to be an expert when they are matching empaths and narcissists, to marry and not take into consideration for the empath’s future? It just made me more thankful to have had my learning / understanding.

            Good to chat as always, LET 🙂 xx

          8. lickemtomorrow says:

            AspEmp, I’d say your Asperger’s is what I would call an ‘intervening’ factor in how you may look at or experience certain things. That is only to acknowledge what you said in your comment about Asperger’s causing your emotions to work differently. It’s possible narcissists would use a program like this to study others and learn from them in the hopes of improving their cognitive empathy. My guess would be the Mid-Rangers who actually believe they care and want to improve on their ‘people skills’ in order to manipulate others.

            When it comes to reality shows and movies my feelings are different. There’s an enormous variety of reality shows, so there’s likely to be differences in terms of which of them tend to play more on your emotions, but if I’m watching a program to determine the best singer, performer, cook, let’s just say I’m not interested in their background story. You can either sing, or you can’t, cook or you can’t, and so on. I’m not watching to hear about your family tragedy, difficult life, poor treatment. That may sound very unempathic, but my purpose in watching is not to feel completely drained after I’ve watched someone spill their guts on TV … that’ not entertainment to me. Some people might say that this type of thing would increase others level of empathy. Your hearing real stories from real people, but if that’s the case then label and advertise the show like Humans of New York does as it reveals people’s personal stories and life dramas. In that case, you are there to hear the stories of everyday people who have stories to tell. I want to pick and choose the manner in which my empathy is applied and not go to a program for one thing only to be handed another which is not the purpose of the program at all. That’s probably what I mean by using the term ‘used’ … I am vulnerable to having my empathy engaged and these programs deliberately attempt to do that, which can end up in overload for me. Others may not be affected in the same way, and I’m probably talking from the stance of the empathic person as opposed to normal. A narcissist is just likely to observe, as you mentioned, or even more likely to end up on the show 😉

            Movies are where I determine I want to enter into the world of fantasy and imagination. Well, that of course depends on the type of movie, but I’m actively seeking to have my imagination and emotions engaged so there is no sense of being used when I have chosen to indulge in this type of entertainment.

            This conversation has helped me to consider more closely the situation for the empath. Even though we have empathy, we do have control over certain elements of that empathy. Our empathy will naturally flow from us, but in terms of how others seek to draw on that and situations we can avoid because we know the whole aim is to draw that empathy for purposes other than a genuine need, we can be discerning. An example would be the victim narcissist I knew who was like a blood sucking vampire when it came to empathy. Rather than a genuine need for empathy, she had a need for control. It took me a long time to see it, but she so thoroughly drained me that all the alarm bells were ringing in the end. I had to get out. It was impossible to fill the void.

            You and your dad had a real connection over the Star Wars franchise, and in some ways it seems to be a gauge for how you are recovering from his loss. It was lovely to read your sentiments around that and I don’t think ‘recovery’ has anything to do with sensitivity. Healing requires us to alter our perspective, albeit in a natural way, and it can take a long time, but I don’t think that means we’re any less sensitive to the reality of having loved and lost. We are just in a place where we can appreciate those things in a different way, where can smile at the memory instead of cry for instance. Our heart is no longer in the grip of grief, but in a place of gratefulness instead <3

            I think you have the 'scientists' worked out as far as MAFS goes. They don't have all of the science at their fingertips and that means empaths will suffer. The 'online' dating comparison is a good one. You'll have unaware narcissists and unaware empaths with regard to their addiction providing answers that will see them as being the ideal 'mates' for one another. Having the 'experts' as middlemen in the situation is not going to change the outcome in that regard. Good point, AspEmp. I'm enjoying reading your insights about the program xox

          9. Asp Emp says:

            LET, thank you for your reply. Yes, Aspergers has it’s own brain-wiring “system” with it’s core characteristics. While I was glad to have the diagnosis as part of understanding myself better, no-one mentioned CPSTD as a contributing factor – it’s only some time after I joined KTN when I saw some of the ‘clues’ ie the addiction to narcissism being part of the reason why the repeated ‘cycle’ of “being attracted to abusers” (but not being consciously aware of it) occurs until learning to understand / manage it better. Interesting that it is suggested that those with Aspergers have lack of emotional empathy, I question whether that it correct because of HG’s work on narcissism / empaths.

            I understand exactly what you mean regarding reality programmes. I enjoy the Ben Fogle series where he travels to people who have moved to rural areas, or even in the middle of inhabited locations. I had considered something similar years ago. Now I realise, some of the “reasonings” behind it – being in deep in narcissistic abuse subconsciously made me consider it. I would not totally dismiss the idea of it though. There are some “reality” programmes I will not watch, because it is just BS. That is black & white thinking, not related to my emotions. It is interesting how you described it about it impacting on your emotions, so you make the conscious decision not to watch them. Having said that, I found I could not watch ie ‘Dogs Behaving Badly’ following the death of my dog, because it hurt too much at the time. Is it more related to whether it is people, or animals, that some of us may opt to interact with more because of our brain-wiring, or based on our experiences with narcissists? Some people simply can relate more to nature rather than people, as one person I knew loved animals and surrounded herself with them, while her husband was not as “interested” in the animals. He was rather ‘aloof’. Indicative, not determinative 😉

            I agree. We can be discerning when it comes to our empathy. Who deserves it. Who does not. It is about listening to our instincts more now that we have gained the learning to understand what empathy is. I think some people can see when I am in the mindset of “no, I am not giving you my empathy”. That is the beauty of it. Choice. Freedom to do so.

            Your words “Healing requires us to alter our perspective, albeit in a natural way, and it can take a long time” – perspective and knowledge goes a long way when it is applied appropriately. There was no “natural” way because of the underlying (unawareness) Aspergers, narcissistic abuse etc. That is why it took me so long. Considering Harry in this aspect, this is why he is still ‘stuck’ (he has something but I do not think it is Aspergers). Great last 2 sentences of that paragraph – good to read. Thank you xx :-).

            Them “experts” been sussed out 😉

            Thank you for being you, good to read what you say xx

          10. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hi AspEmp 🙂

            I’ve only seen your response now, so apologies for any delay.

            Your first paragraph made me think of the enormous complexities around understanding ourselves and others better, which could include elements of diagnoses such as Asperger’s, Autism, ADHD, etc., and also issues surrounding CPTSD, along with the possibility of being empaths impacted by narcissists.

            Just of the top of my head, I don’t view the lack of empathy inherent in narcissism in the same way I would view what could be considered a lack of empathy in some of these other diagnoses (e.g. Asperger’s). If I think about my daughter’s boyfriend who is an Aspie, he sometimes does not ‘recognise’ cues with regard to empathy the way an empath would. An example might be she is not feeling well and wants to get an Uber home from an outing, but he is fine so therefore misses the cue in terms of being considerate and not leaving her to catch an Uber home on her own. I don’t think he is uncaring, his actions could be viewed as inconsiderate, but in general I know that if she expressed her wish for him to stay with her, he would likely do so. In that sense, he needs a reminder at times because he has missed a cue (which can be hard to read at times, let’s be honest), but it’s not coming from a place of literally not caring about her. I think there is an honesty about this ’emotional blindness’, and I’m more likely to call it that than a lack of empathy. It’s not deliberate and can be overcome.

            I used that term – emotional blindness – as it is very different to the emotional manipulation perpetrated by the narcissist. This is where the lack of empathy requires them to watch or observe others for the purposes of developing a cognitive empathy, which they can then apply to manipulate. One is very deliberate in attempting to mirror the empathy of others, the other occasionally needs prompts to understand how to apply empathy in different situations.

            You might have a different perspective or understanding, AspEmp, and it’s prompting me to want to know more.

            The call of the wild crosses my mind occasionally 🙂 I haven’t seen any of the Ben Fogle stuff, but that would be an interesting insight into the lives of people who have made the sea change. Sometimes we might feel pushed in that direction as a means of escape, which it sound like what you are saying, or else it was the narcissist wished to isolate you further and you considered agreeing to that. It could go either way.

            I see you made a conscious decision not to watch a certain program because you knew it would affect you emotionally. It wasn’t necessarily a sad program, hopefully the dogs were getting the help they needed, but it would have tapped into your sense of loss and missing your own dog 🙁 Totally get that. I’ve no doubt some people feel safer with animals than with other people, in terms of offering their attention and affection. That could have a lot to do with past experience and how for one reason or another it became difficult or impossible to attach to another human being. Pets are so loyal and loving for the most part. We can rely on them as they rely on us. People not so much.

            I was interested in the person you describe who surrounded themselves with animals that they loved, yet the partner remained somewhat aloof. I think a number of different scenarios could be painted here, one of which is he was being ‘sidelined’ by the animals and she paid more attention to them than to him. Not saying triangulation, but he may need to appreciate animals as much as her for the relationship to really work. My mother was aloof when it came to pets. She is a narcissist. That’s the side to the story you describe.

            I think you get the point about empaths having an element of control in terms of where and when we apply our empathy. It flows naturally, but also requires discernment when there is manipulation occurring, like when the victim narcissist attempted to source my empathy for purposes of control. I think that is where the distinction lies when you use the term ‘deserving’, if I have determined I am being manipulated, then my empathy is no longer on offer.

            When it comes to Harry, it’s hard to know what underlies his current blindness, and it could be a number of things, but being in the clutches of a narcissist means she will try to ensure his blindness remains.

            I had an interesting, and somewhat overwhelming, dream a couple of nights ago which involved his mother, Diana, Princess of Wales. I could not even begin to explain the dream, but it related to the Divine Right of kings. Diana was overseeing her son’s lives and William was accepting from her his Divine Right as heir to the throne. The dream left me with such a sense of peace that can also not be explained. Markle can bypass a lot of things, but she can’t bypass what God has ordained.

            Enjoy our chats, AspEmp 🙂 Thanks for sharing your thoughts xox

          11. Asp Emp says:

            LET 🙂 No worries at all 🙂 Lovely to hear from you and read what you say.

            Your daughter’s boyfriend and the recognition of social cues from your daughter is interesting, I understand it. I wonder if your daughter, sometimes, may need to offer more direct way of communicating the information to him? I found that I needed more information, rather than just one syllable ( 😉 ). Instead of saying “bus”, say “red bus”, or “bus is coming” – expansion on the communication if you can understand? Considering that he (aspie) is still a young man and has not quite developed the ‘reading’ of social cues compared to someone who is 20-30 years older? It can take longer for it to become a more natural recognition / understanding ‘response’. Considering that getting the attention of an aspie can be difficult at times (as you may already know).

            I totally understand why you used “emotional blindness”. Lack of empathy, it is not. Maybe it’s a kind of ‘barrier’ in the aspie’s mind / emotional understanding (not deliberate, just delayed “connecting the dots”)? Yes, it can be overcome. Through being more aware of (and being more open) to communication, understanding each other. And, how other people behave, why, when, where etc.

            Both narcissists and aspies learn by observing other people. Including the mirroring of the emotional responses. Until both ‘develop’ their skills to be able to adapt and respond accordingly. I think the cognitive & emotional empathy is present from birth, but understood differently (perceptions). A narcissist’s empathy changes when they are formed into the narcissist. An aspie’s empathy does not change, despite it needing more time to develop (understand) compared to someone who is not autistic.

            I recall saying “there are bad aspies and good aspies”. Maybe, just maybe, aspies / autistics / ADHD etc carry the genetic predisposition to develop into either narcissists, or, empaths? I do question whether anyone who is autistic / ADHD etc is neither empath, nor narcissist but a “normal” autistic actually exists.

            I think more scientific research needs to look at it more closely where autism / ADHD etc has more ‘chance’ of narcissist / empath formations because of the DNA patterning. The LOCEs are the determining factor. Apparently, a baby can be determined as being an autistic (which can contribute to a reduction of a narcissist forming, providing there is an awareness of risk / or the existence of a LOCE) which is still difficult because of the presence of an autistic child. Within the autism diagnostic professionals, they need to know about narcissism and recognise whether any of the parent(s) exhibit any of the indicators.

            My ‘Ben Fogle’ sharing derived following a holiday in Catatonia. Looking back, it was my instincts “talking” out loud (escape) but unaware of narcissism. I had not been diagnosed of Aspergers by then either. I was seeking for answers to ‘me’. I have them now. If I decide (not influenced by anyone else) to change home location, it would not be based on ‘escape’ but ‘change’. Then again, I felt very at ‘home’ in Catalonia. Maybe there is a link ancestor wise?

            The couple owning the numerous animals. He was ex-services (retired). I never saw any manipulations from her towards anyone but I know what you mean. I would not suggest she is narcissist or not. I don’t have contact with them.

            Oh, BTW, that MAFS couple. They split! He married a first woman, went off with a second one (got his tattoo made for) and the next thing is, he is on holiday with another woman from the same programme. Interesting, the second woman and he split because he has issues with allowing people ‘in’ (he said intimacy issues, relating to his past). She was not as upset about it either.

            You made me laugh – the wording “if I have determined I am being manipulated, then my empathy is no longer on offer”. Exactly :-).

            Interesting dream. And to recall watching the film ‘The Omen’ that was on tv last night.

            You’re more than welcome RE: thoughts sharing 🙂 Good to ‘converse’ 🙂 xx

          12. lickemtomorrow says:

            AspEmp 🙂

            Thanks for adding further insight around the needs of an Aspie and I think my daughter’s boyfriend being young still will give plenty of opportunity for improving communication and understanding. I enjoyed reading your second paragraph which helped to clarify the barrier that exists and how it might be overcome. Narcissists cannot be empathic because they deny their own vulnerability. It is locked away with the Creature, never to be seen again. It must be despised as a weakness which has the potential to bring about their demise. While there may be a need for others to put more effort into connecting by observing and learning, there is a different driver for the narcissist. Theirs is envy, and a desire to manipulate for the purposes of control.

            That’s curious about Catalonia. It’s interesting how we find connections to places and I wonder why you picked that particular place to escape to at the time? Could be an ancestry connection and I hope it did you some good at the time <3

            Good Lord! That MAFS guy is a pure Casanova and love rat all rolled into one. He's definitely got the appearances of a narcissist, and maybe the second 'wife' does, too, since she wasn't that bothered about the intimacy factor either. So much for the 'expertise' of the experts 😛 What is the third woman thinking? I'm desperate??

            I've watched The Omen more than once, and there you have the enemy of the Divine I was referring to – if you take these things seriously. Markle fits into the Omen category for me, and I do take these things seriously 😉

            Thanks for your further insights once again xox

          13. Asp Emp says:

            Hello LET 🙂

            Glad to have assisted you in some way for your daughter’s boyfriend.

            My words “A narcissist’s empathy changes when they are formed into the narcissist”, the emotional empathy ‘dies’ and some narcissists develop their cognitive empathy. Your words about envy, manipulation etc reminded me of : The 5 Fears of the Narcissist, The 5 Hatreds of the Narcissist.

            Catalonia was an invited to join holiday. Oh, it did me a great deal of good – just recalling the smells of the pine trees heated from the sun (just now). It is just totally different from UK and it was a break from narcissistic abuse at work. It is the last time I can recall being relaxed before coming to KTN.

            MAFS guy was not a Casanova! He had no etiquette towards anything really. Quite aggressive, probably revealed a bit of that side more behind closed doors as he was “struggling” with past issues. The 3rd woman’s mindset? A free holiday? Who knows? The blond haired expert (scuse me a mo, clearing my throat), appeared a bit one-sided conversant (in my opinion) and her smile seemed a bit too “I have to smile like this but I don’t know how to make it more real” (laughing).

            As for the Omen film, the actor kid was really good in the role. Very convincing expression on his face at the end. HW does not have the same ‘calibre’, she’d done that stupid grin of hers with the teeth that would fit a horse better 😉

            No worries, LET, good to chat 🙂 xx

          14. Asp Emp says:

            Hello LET 🙂

            I’m reposting this 🙂

            Glad to have assisted you in some way for your daughter’s boyfriend.

            My words “A narcissist’s empathy changes when they are formed into the narcissist”, the emotional empathy ‘dies’ and some narcissists develop their cognitive empathy. Your words about envy, manipulation etc reminded me of : The 5 Fears of the Narcissist, The 5 Hatreds of the Narcissist.

            Catalonia was an invited to join holiday. Oh, it did me a great deal of good – just recalling the smells of the pine trees heated from the sun (just now). It is just totally different from UK and it was a break from narcissistic abuse at work. It is the last time I can recall being relaxed before coming to KTN.

            MAFS guy was not a Casanova! He had no etiquette towards anything really. Quite aggressive, probably revealed a bit of that side more behind closed doors as he was “struggling” with past issues. The 3rd woman’s mindset? A free holiday? Who knows? The blond haired expert (scuse me a mo, clearing my throat), appeared a bit one-sided conversant (in my opinion) and her smile seemed a bit too “I have to smile like this but I don’t know how to make it more real” (laughing).

            As for the Omen film, the actor kid was really good in the role. Very convincing expression on his face at the end. HW does not have the same ‘calibre’, she’d done that stupid grin of hers with the teeth that would fit a horse better 😉

            No worries, LET, good to chat 🙂 xx

          15. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hey AspEmp,

            Glad you reposted, and you did help me with regard to my daughter’s boyfriend, so thanks for that 🙂

            When I responded to your comment about the narcissist’s empathy, I was trying to describe what I think occurs when the narcissism takes hold. If we consider the LOCE being impactful in terms of the narcissism developing, then we have a situation where there was potential for empathy to develop also. The reason it didn’t was because it necessarily got locked away with the Creature. Empathy would be seen as ‘bad’ and creating a weakness for the narcissist which they cannot afford due to their need to build their narcissistic defence. It had to die for the narcissist to be born. While empaths see their empathy as a positive thing, and necessary for the most part, a narcissist will feel the opposite way due to the threat – or weakness – it poses. At some point I believe there is a conscious decision taken by the narcissist to turn away from empathy. They’ve been forced to decide on the basis of their LOCE and in order to survive. This may generate sympathy for the narcissist, but the effect of their narcissism and inability to overcome it means any sympathy is wasted on them. It just draws us into an endless cycle of wishing, waiting, hoping, trying, and ultimately that can’t be sustained. Either we leave or we are destroyed, our empathy broken on the immovable rock that is narcissism.

            I haven’t read either of those items you mentioned and might need to look them up now that you’ve made me aware.

            Catalonia sounds like a real period of respite for you 🙂 I love your description of the pine trees, too. There are things about certain places we visit that stay with us and generate that same feeling again whenever we think of them. I’m glad it was so positive for you, and the sense of relaxation was able to carry on after you found your way here <3

            The whole MAFS things is a real study in human behaviour, and the description of the expert's smile reminded me how awkward these shows can be at times. Laughing is a good response 😉

            I like the Gregory Peck version of The Omen. Of course, it is an exaggerated idea of evil, which is often much more subtle, but it does highlight the reality if you are inclined to believe. Interesting add on, when I had that dream about Diana, I didn't realise her mother, Frances Shand Kydd, was a convert to the Catholic faith and a Priest was the Chaplain on call at Diana's bedside when she died. He apparently gave her the last rites, and continues to say Masses for both her and her mother. It struck me when I read that as my dream was very Catholic in its orientation.

            Just getting back to your comment on the child actor in that movie, I have to say the comparison with HW made me smile 🙂 Of course, we always have the HW death stare, which couldn't be more evil if she tried, It exists because it's what is at the heart of her. Envy. It's the reason she throws a 'dirty look' at a 3yr old Charlotte at her wedding. In that sense, I'm thankful Harry and his wife took themselves overseas as it's provided an inadvertent protection for William and Catherine's children from the toxicity of the narcissist. You could say their departure from the RF has been a blessing in disguise even if the fallout from that hasn't been pleasant.

            As per usual, I've probably gone over my 'word limit' in expressing my thoughts, but it is always good to chat, AspEmp, and I appreciate hearing your thoughts xox

          16. Asp Emp says:

            Hi LET 🙂

            I’m pleased to have assisted you RE: daughter’s boyfriend.

            I understand what you mean about the narcissism / empathy developing. I recall HG’s ‘flash pan’ and ‘slow cooker’ effect.

            RE: “there is a conscious decision taken by the narcissist to turn away from empathy” – I’d beg to differ on this because some narcissists are formed from the age of less than a year old. The cognitive understanding of any person at that age does not necessarily exist. “they’ve been forced to decide on the basis of their LOCE”, again, I’d disagree because, narcissists react instinctively and not consciously, so they would not necessarily “decide”. However, they may ‘recall’ a certain experience of an earlier LOCE ie similarities to “they have been here before but do not actually exactly know where / when” because the ‘door’ to their memories remains “slammed shut”. But when it comes to the repeated abuser (or, ‘reminder’ of that LOCE), again, the narcissist reacts. They do not necessarily think because they do not have “time” to do so because they are effectively carrying out a number of instinctive responses at once. Only those that are aware may stop and think, not always. They react quicker but may think, ‘no, I’ll do it this way’ (or ‘park’ that until later).

            Will Smith; Johnny Depp; Harry all reacted in narcissistic ways because of the situations they found themselves in. My sympathy for these people was not ‘wasted’, because I understood. Will and Johnny were severely abused as children. Harry was not. Harry (not officially shared / diagnosed) and Johnny have neurological differences. Will, in my view, has the less ability to ‘defend’ for himself because of Jada’s higher echelon “status”, so he has more “difficulty” to truly see through her and the fact that they have been married 25 plus years. Johnny is Johnny 🙂 Harry can get out but he’s being watched by her almost 24/7.

            I feel no sympathy for Jada; Amber, or HW. I do not have any true emotions for these 3. Just like the narcissists of my own past. Past = gone out of sight, out of mind. Triggers can be dealt with. Quickly = ET management 🙂

            As you know, I am not a religious person and, I find it odd that saying prayers for people who are no longer around is not going to change the fact that they are dead. That is the aspie way of thinking. Not narcissistic, nor, empathic (oops, my halo fell off, laughing).

            Sorry, I’ll be serious now. Do you have, or are aware of any connections in regard to Catholics?

            Envy is not the only characteristic that ‘drives’ Harry’s wife. I agree that William & Kate’s children are protected from HW. Sophie (bless her 🙂 ) did her ‘bit’ to shield during the Queen’s funeral.

            I enjoy reading your comments, no matter how long / short. They give me perspectives that I may not have considered and it’s good to discuss 🙂 As always, thank you for listening 🙂 xx

          17. lickemtomorrow says:

            AspEmp, I’m horrified I actually didn’t see this response until now. Between HG’s absences and my own full schedule atm, I had no idea and didn’t receive a notification that you had replied. My sincere apologies <3

            I think the "flash pan" reference is in regard to a significant and sudden trauma and the "slow cooker" reference to a build up of trauma as it relates to the LOCE. I'll need you to correct me if I'm wrong.

            I think HG says that narcissism is solidified by the age of 9yrs normally. This means it has had time to develop and become "hermetically sealed". Whether it's a momentary development (sudden and severe trauma) or a delayed response, it seems to me either way a choice or decision is made to embrace the defence mechanism that is narcissism. I find it hard to believe that a child under one year of age is capable of making such a choice, and still consider there is plenty of leeway for the child to have the opportunity for intervening factors to prevent the narcissism from developing.

            Where our thinking may differ is in terms of what we decide 'instinctually' and what we decide after a period of consideration. From my perspective, both of these involve decision making, even if that decision is based on instinct. The narcissist will have a genetic predisposition which may lend itself to instinctual thinking or decision making toward the narcissistic defence. A predisposition does not mean the thinking is entirely out of the narcissist's control. The whole remit of narcissism is based on the need and desire for control. What the narcissist chooses is to have that control as a means of defence.

            Just to clarify, I did say our sympathy was wasted on narcissists, not those who fall outside of this category. Personally, I don't waste any sympathy on Johnny Depp, and I have given my reasoning behind that. Will Smith and Harry don't garner much sympathy from me either as it tends to go to those they have wounded – in Will Smith's case to Chris Rock, and in Harry's case to the RF. When victims of the narcissist (Harry/Will) are finally awakened and accountable for the hurt they have also caused, then I might offer my sympathy. Will Smith may appear apologetic, but the fact he was still able to collect his Oscar instead of being arrested and escorted out of the building is forever burned into my consciousness. If these individuals won't hold themselves accountable, then it is up to others to do so. Same goes for Harry. He is yet to be accountable for the harm he has foisted on his family, and especially his late grandmother, the Queen. He is so overcome with his own narcissistic traits that my sympathy would do more harm than good. The 'spare' doesn't care.

            I appreciate your Aspie way of thinking, and Catholics have their own Dogma when it comes to these things. Just as a very quick overview, the Church is divided into three parts – Church Militant (Christians on earth), Church Penitent or Expectant (those in Purgatory), and Church Triumphant (those in Heaven). Those who have died and are in Purgatory require our prayers in order to become part of the Church Triumphant or reach Heaven. Having been brought up Protestant, I can understand the confusion around this, and I get the humour from an Aspie point of view. My daughter's boyfriend struggles with the notion of religion as well. I'm never sure if it's an outright rejection, or the fact it makes no sense to someone with Asperger's. It probably doesn't make sense to a lot of people, Aspie or not 😉

            As far as I'm aware, I have no connection to Catholicism via my mother or my father's family. Both were Protestant, my mother German Lutheran and my father decided to join the Anglican Church as an adult, after my parents were married and after we were born. I was 5yrs old when I was baptised, and had never been in a church prior to that. There were no churchgoing members of my family. It's something of an anomaly.

            Thank you for listening, too, AspEmp. I really appreciate your willingness to share your thoughts and also challenge mine 🙂 Curious to know what else you think is at the heart of Harry's wife. In the meantime, I hope you had a joyous Christmas and want to wish you, and everyone here, a Happy New Year xox

          18. Asp Emp says:

            Hi LET! 🙂 No worries, you know me by now 🙂 I’ll respond in full shortly 🙂 Thank you for your wishes, I trust that you all are well? xx

          19. Asp Emp says:

            Hello LET 🙂

            Both the ‘flash pan’ (ie PTSD) and ‘slow cooker’ (ie CPTSD) are LOCEs.

            RE: “a choice or decision is made to embrace the defence mechanism that is narcissism”- how many children from ages 0 to 9 have awareness of themselves to a degree to decide / choose to be a narcissist? Nobody “chooses”- it is “forced” upon them through circumstances (GPD + LOCE). Just like you and I did not choose to be abused by those who carried it out. Not that the abusers would ‘see’ it that way. Refer back to HG’s article ‘To Control Is To Cope – The Creation Of Narcissism’. HG would have specified in that article that a narcissist “makes” the choice to become one. Just like a psychopath does not choose to become one, it is circumstantial.

            Instinctual decision-making = does a sea-lion consider for a moment or two what it’s options are when it has a shark immediately going for it? No. Instinctive survival response. Act now then think later. That is how a narcissist AND quite possibly an unaware victim of an abuser may “react” too. But. A narcissist will not “think” later, they dismiss it via deflection; blame-shifting; denial etc. They may also ‘use’ that particular ‘experience’ by ‘storing’ it in their mind (if it does actually ‘register’ ie within the mind of a Greater / Upper MR) to either not ‘repeat’ the situation / circumstance to avoid ‘detection’, or use the same experience again. Why? Fuel and control.

            Narcissists “operate” by in-built survival ‘mode’ via assertions of control.

            I understand and accept that you have your thoughts / feelings in regard to Will; Harry and Johnny. Will was actually responding by showing that he would not accept his wife being “abused / attacked” in public, he just did not stop to think, he just reacted with his ET (because he is unaware of what he married and he is unaware of what he is – an abused empath, who probably had not had therapy before this particular incident). You know what you are. You are aware of what you have experienced in your life-time. Harry is not aware of what he is. Harry is not aware of what he married. Johnny probably learned about narcissism (not his narcissistic side necessarily but about the subject) while he was undergoing the diagnostic process for ADHD. Harry’s wife has contributed to increasing Harry’s narcissistic traits being very high and very active for a number of years now. He does not realise, nor, does he understand fully. Just like all empaths who are not aware. Can you recall what your mindset / emotional “standing” was like before you found HG’s work? Who believed you? Who believed in you? Who supported you? Did you take accountability for your behaviours / actions pre-KTN knowledge? Was it all your fault entirely? Did you make wrong decisions in the past because of how you were ‘conditioned’ to think / feel? Those are questions, simply, to consider where you are now, compared to where Harry (& Will) are now. Harry will regret a lot of things he has said and done. He cannot turn back the clock to change it all. They do not have the ‘key’. You do. I am just going to suggest that I try to apply my LT rather than allow ET govern me when it comes to talking about ie Harry; Will; Johnny because I do well to keep my traits of anger in check, simply by applying the method of reminding myself of what I have learned about myself.

            Some Aspies may not see the point in religion, simply because of the way they think. For me personally, I do not see how religion can improve ie Climate Change; stop Ukraine war occurring; stop the Costs of Living Crisis because it does not ‘compute’, maybe in the mindset of an Aspie. So, effectively, religion would not benefit me in the way it may for others. Thank you for understanding my views on this 🙂

            I have no curiosity at “the heart of Harry’s wife”. She is a narcissist. A perfect example to learn about narcissism through HG’s observations. It is also interesting to see many people’s perceptions, of both Harry’s wife and Harry.

            Thank you for listening, good to hear & challenge each other’s thinking / feeling around matters that impacted on our lives that led us here. 🙂 xx

            HG, thank you, for your time in moderating xx

          20. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hi AspEmp,

            Thanks for clarifying re: the ‘flash pan’ and ‘slow cooker’.

            I’m going to take another look at “To Control is to Cope” so that I can refresh my memory and see how that relates to what I am thinking.

            Reflecting on how I behaved when I was involved with the narcissist, the only person I remember having to deal with my wrath was the narcissist themselves because they sought that negative fuel. I was able to maintain my other relationships in terms of how I treated other people. Not to say I didn’t struggle with my mood at times, but that was generally more sadness and despair. Perhaps this is what I find confusing about some of these behaviours. To be ‘puppeted’ so effectively in terms of damaging others is not part of my experience. I was damaged myself, but somehow that did not extend to damaging others at the narcissist’s behest.

            You’ve given me more to ponder 🙂 xox

          21. Asp Emp says:

            Thank you, LET. I understand exactly what you mean by sadness / despair, you understand it all too well 🙂 (hug for that). And about the “damage” within oneself (which can lead to ‘self-destruction’ as HG describes it). Good to hear from you, LET 🙂 xx

          22. lickemtomorrow says:

            I just wanted to add a little more to my sentiments expressed earlier in light of a news article in the Daily Mail which highlights the issue for me.

            My earlier comment:

            “When victims of the narcissist (Harry/Will) are finally awakened and accountable for the hurt they have also caused, then I might offer my sympathy. Will Smith may appear apologetic, but the fact he was still able to collect his Oscar instead of being arrested and escorted out of the building is forever burned into my consciousness. If these individuals won’t hold themselves accountable, then it is up to others to do so.”

            Motion Picture Academy President:

            “The infamous Oscars slap that marred last year’s awards ceremony was addressed at the Oscar nominees luncheon on Monday by motion picture academy president Janet Yang. Yang, 66, neither had to describe it nor say the names Will Smith or Chris Rock for the ballroom full of award hopefuls to know what she was talking about when she aired her regrets.

            ‘I’m sure you all remember we experienced an unprecedented event at the Oscars,’ Yang told a crowd that included Tom Cruise, Angela Bassett, Cate Blanchett and Steven Spielberg during her opening remarks.

            ‘What happened onstage was wholly unacceptable and the response from our organization was inadequate,’ she added.

            The Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences did little in response to Smith, 54, storming the stage and slapping Rock, 58, during last year’s Oscars telecast or in the immediate aftermath.

            It was nearly two weeks before its board of governors voted to ban Smith from the Oscars and all other academy events for 10 years. Smith already had preemptively resigned as an academy member.

            ‘We learned from this that the academy must be fully transparent and accountable in our actions,’ Yang said, ‘and particularly in times of crisis you must act swiftly, compassionately and decisively for ourselves and for our industry. You should and can expect no less form us going forward.’

            Two comments below the article also represent my feelings on this:

            “Let’s call it what it was: assault. The most shocking was that everything and everyone largely continued with the ceremony as if nothing of any significance had occurred. The inaction and collective indifference was chilling.”

            “Will Smith should have been arrested and I say this as a former fan. Because he basically had zero repercussions for his violent outburst, I won’t watch a single project of his again. Not even his ‘apology’ was genuine. It is unacceptable that the academy, the network, the theater, the police or even Smith himself failed to hold him accountable.”

            Will Smith was let down by the people who should have held him accountable in order to give him a wake up call with regard to his actions and his entanglement. Playing softball for the sake of your organisation, awards ceremony, someone’s fame, fortune, status, etc., is not going to help them, and you come off looking bad as well. Prince Charles should take note of this reality as regards his coronation. Playing softball with Harry and his wife will only destroy his own reputation, and it will not help his son.

        2. Viol. says:

          Bethenny may be a narc herself (the Real Housewives franchise pretty much requires narcs for drama), but if she is, she’s Trump’s kind: no facade, no filter. Duchess Sizzler’s hypocrisy will grate on her more than her need for attention.

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            Viol, thanks for that feedback 🙂 You can definitely tell something is grating on her, and a lot of other people as well.

  18. Asp Emp says:

    I do feel sorry for Harry. He is coming to the UK very shortly. He will feel a lot worse at not being given the freedom to visit / speak with his family members in person – face to face. Even if with his present mindset, he may have said “I do not want to see them”, then gets onto ‘home’ ground, his emotions will come to the fore. He may display a “strong” front but he is human and someone with higher level of emotional empathy. Poor guy. To keep the children in USA, is another form of manipulation (in my opinion), not for their “security”, but as a “means” to “ensure” Harry goes back to USA (‘item retention’). It is about understanding the manipulations of the narcissist – their “game”. Harry’s wife is not necessarily sat there and saying to herself, “how can I trap him to staying with me?”.

    In my view, Harry’s wife is worse than Amber Heard. Because Harry’s wife’s ‘poison’ (I initially typed ‘tendrils’) reached out further to more people than Amber Heard did – based on what has been reported in the press, social media etc.

    Harry should consider divorce in the UK, through the UK courts – not in California. Because of the inheritance that was his years before he met / married her. Unless the UK law has changed since I last was aware of it – the spouse cannot make a claim on the inheritance of the other.

    HG, thank you for all your work on this couple. No matter what else is said in the press, by other authors and so on. You got there first. You wrote about her first. The evidence is present for all to see. The credit is yours. Thank you for moderating 🙂 xxx

    1. lickemtomorrow says:

      I’m still wondering how he managed to make that sideline trip to Africa on his own.

      Something about that felt like the old Harry, minus the drama his wife brings. Probably the first time I felt a level of respect for him in a long time, when he finally got away from her.

      In other words, there is hope if he can achieve his escape, though many pieces to pick up and lets hope it’s possible before the Queen or even his father pass away. The Queen is certainly withdrawing from a lot of events so that’s an indication she is feeling her age.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        LET, yes, I think you have noted a ‘chink’ in Harry’s former ‘rebellious’ self with regard to his trip to Africa on his own. Harry may be “weak” but has a strength within him but needs others for support. I was surprised but not surprised to read about that. Who knows? He could be planning an escape of some kind but not making any ‘noise’ about it? Yes, it is a pity about the Queen but she has been through a great deal in last couple of years, including the chaos over Andrew, losing her ‘rock’ the Duke. She has done well, despite that. Maybe the RF have made a pact to assist Harry (and the children), only when he is ready and not with her? Good to read what you say 🙂

        1. lickemtomorrow says:

          That trip really went under the wire and there was very little reporting on it, which in some way surprises me. Why are their joint trips getting more attention? It’s as though Harry on his own isn’t worth reporting on and that tells a story all of its own. The more subtle manner in which Royal style duties are carried out doesn’t stand a chance in terms of creating clickbait for the media. It’s one of the downfalls of media, in my opinion. Duty doesn’t nab the headlines in the same way superficial celebrity does.

          I wonder if he felt any different, not having his wife pawing and clawing at him the whole time. Did he feel free? Opportunities like that might just highlight the need or desire for escape. At the same time she Harry firmly entrenched as the pepper to her salt, or the salt to her pepper. SMH.

          1. Asp Emp says:

            Let, just seen this 🙂 Your second paragraph is something that I think he does ‘think’ about but maybe he has not quite got to the point of “hang on a minute, she is not here and how do I think / feel about it, do I miss her?” etc (because his ‘mindset’, despite his sometimes, rebellious side is not strong enough?). Is he that overwhelmed with his so-out-of-sync ET / LT that he cannot see beyond the “world” that he thinks he lives in? Or does he struggle to find a way out without her cutting his balls off first? I suppose some people can understand both sides of where Harry is currently.

          2. lickemtomorrow says:

            AspEmp, you may have a point with your comparison between out of sync ET/LT being the barrier to understanding and the possibility of Harry having some understanding, but not knowing how to get out without major damage occurring. He is literally in a bind either way. The second way allows a level of agency, the first does not. If he can’t see the forest for the trees he will continue on the road he is on. If he is beginning to take a step back and see the forest then he may yet be overwhelmed with the lack of options open to him. The narcissist ensures we burn those bridges that may have helped provide our rescue – in Harry’s case he has distanced himself from his family and friends, to the point of living in another country and worse (smearing his family).

            There may be a chance on his own that he can escape, but returning with her is not an option in terms of escape. This is where the notion of reconciliation falls down. There is no way trust can be regained with Markle in the mix. Time and time again we have seen she only causes rancour, and that situation is not sustainable. She left with Harry because it was not sustainable on her terms, and everything must be done on the narcissist’s terms. The only way for Harry to find his way out is by leaving her behind. If he does, it will be ugly. If she is holding on to damaging information, which is what she has alluded to, then she will fire all barrels and continue to seek to bring the RF down.

            If I took another tangent on that train of thought, there is a possibility that Harry knows this is what she would do and therefore he cannot leave her for the sake of his family. That would be a real twist in the story – he needs to stay with her because if he leaves her she will smear the RF even more egregiously. Narcissist’s are given to making these kinds of threats … “if you leave me, I will …”

            It’s like my ex-husband said to me – “you can go, but you’re not taking them with you” meaning my children. I felt I had no option but to remain in proximity to the narcissist for several more years before I managed to call his bluff, somehow convincing him I was prepared to leave without them. Coercive control is abuse. It’s possible at some level Harry is experiencing the coercion of the narcissist. Threats will raise anybody’s level of emotional thinking. All I could think was what would happen to my children if I left them behind. I was never prepared to do that, but had to convince him I was, and that the burden would fall on him to pick up the pieces. Narcissists are self centred. A threat to their self centred nature might be the one thing to bring the whole thing undone. I’m not sure what that threat would be in Harry’s case. He would need to have a means to break free that involved her needing to maintain her facade, the only way she could do that being to let him go.

            If I was the RF, I’d be thinking along those lines, if Harry was willing of course.

          3. Asp Emp says:

            LET, reading what you say about Harry (and her!) made me think, where the RF are concerned. Should the RF want to ensure Harry’s wife does not share what should not be shared publicly, then, that is one reason for ‘fighting’ against her via the Laws in California because they may differ from the UK Laws where privacy and so on are concerned. It could be argued that RF have no jurisdiction where Californian Laws are concerned. That leaves Harry in a different and probably more difficult position when it comes to leaving her, even before the divorce comes into the mix. There are the children too. The children “exist” but whether they are Harry’s and his wife’s, is another matter. No doubt, the RF would be advised how to respond in the future, should she start acting like Amber Heard when it comes to the court process (LOL). It won’t be televised, that’s for sure. Maybe part of it will? Regardless of how the RF will be impacted, they have a lot of evidence ie HG’s work, Tom Bower and Valentine Lowe’s works. Harry’s wife has failed to stop (if she tried) any of these works being published. Maybe Harry’s book can be stopped?

            Harry and his wife would not know as much about the Law as much as the RF do. Who knows, maybe the RF have researched (or already know) about the legalities of ‘what if’s’. They have cut Harry off to the point where he, himself, has to decide to stay or leave her. As for the children, Harry’s wife has to prove that she is the better parent for custody purposes. The facts remain. She has no relationships that support her ‘rights’ to keep the children, ie her external family in order to support the children in their future. The UK RF have grounds (and evidence) to have custody of the children, if they so wish to take that route?

            That is the difference between a private family in a similar situation and the very publicised family (RF / Harry).

            On that note, I am sorry to read that you found yourself in the position as you described. I am glad you eventually found your way out, despite the difficult navigations you took in order to get where you are now. xx

      2. Sean says:

        Not just to Africa. I’m also intrigued as to how he was able to make all these other whistle-stop visits he’s been doing recently. After all, his argument for snubbing the Queen during his current visit to the UK was the lack of adequate security. Yet he and the wife are currently in Frogmore.

        So the security bubble around the Queen is deemed insufficient to accommodate a visit from the Queen’s minor-royal grandson and his wife, but the pair of them have no problem wallowing in pity in Frogmore where security arrangements are likely to be much lower. Not to mention his trips to various European destinations as of late.

        Given the Queen’s advanced years, it is quite likely that this is the last time he will be on UK soil while she is still alive. This may well be the last chance he has to spend time with her, to talk and simply sit in the same room as her. He and his wife have stuck two fingers up at that precious opportunity, a decision he may well come to regret for the rest of his life if and when the scales fall from his eyes and he comes to his senses.

        1. Asp Emp says:

          Sean, maybe it is not just security on the Queen’s part? I saw a photograph of her shaking hands with the new UK Prime Minister (throat clearing here), the Queen looks so frail, my heart went out to her. I agree with your las paragraph, Harry will carry that ‘weight’ for the rest of his life.

        2. lickemtomorrow says:

          Hey Sean, it’s so hypocritical, isn’t it? They’ve willingly set up their own security arrangements to swan around the U.K. and Europe, and have no problem doing so to heighten their own profile, but when it comes to their family where they would be provided with the security they want, well they can go jump as far as Harry and his wife are concerned. It’s an excuse they’ve fashioned for their own purposes and to once again highlight their sense of victimhood. I’m not sure what the Germans were thinking sending a plane to fetch them, which the German people paid for through their taxes apparently. Take that U.K. The Germans treat us better 😛

          It is incredibly sad they’ve chosen to stick two fingers up at the opportunity to visit the Queen. They’ll never forgive her for putting the boundaries in place that stopped them in their tracks when they wanted to be part time Royals and ultimately suit themselves when it came to Royal duties and their lifestyle. I hope Harry does come to regret his current stance as well all do once the scales have dropped off our eyes. Regret looms large over the victim of the narcissist when they realise what they have lost and how some of that they can never get back. Still, there may yet be rejoicing if Harry ever manages to breakaway from his handler.

  19. Janet says:

    Harry can’t ever admit her lies- he is so tied to her it could be self destructive.

    1. lickemtomorrow says:

      My thoughts exactly, Janet. She has him nicely spun into her web of lies and mistruths.

    2. Duchessbea says:

      Janet, very much agree. Very sad. It is so evident to see Harry is a shadow of his former self. He and Meghan are basically a younger version of Will Smith and Jada Pinkett Smith and we all saw how good that relationship is. HG did a great outline on that.

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