Knowing the Psychopath : An Uncaring Perfect Predator
I adopt a brilliant disguise. I appear just like you. I pass myself off as being like you. You look on me and see the smile, the well-dressed man who tells the jokes which make you laugh time and time again. I fix my gaze on you, my laser-like, hyper focussed gaze which makes you feel special and wanted. The subjects I speak of, the places I revisit, the images I create with my mastery of words, all of this makes you feel like I am like you.
Yet for all that I show you, you have no idea that beneath this brilliant disguise slowly beats the ice cold heart of a ruthless, uncaring perfect predator.
I understand that there are five basic emotions – anger, happiness, disgust, fear and sadness.
I do not experience anger. I experience fury, yet I am able to maintain an ultra level of control over it so that even though it may churn beneath the surface, there is no alteration in my calm and poised exterior. I present the epitome of glacial calm.
I do not experience happiness. There is simply a void which must be filled with the edifying power of fuel and the extinguishing of ennui.
I experience disgust, yet often I ensure that you never recognise that this is what is flowing through my veins as I listen to the detail of your dull, dull existence. Your day to day activities of such little consequence that I am disgusted by your lack of consequence. Yet, unless I choose to unleash that disgust, I maintain a mask of pleasantry as you flap your gums filling my ears with your tedium. Instead, I must amuse my mind with a dozen ways I would turn your monotonous dullness into scream of terror. I am sustained by the images that flicker through my mind as I calculate your fate by my skilled hands.
I am without fear. It is a stranger in these lands.
I know not sadness. It is for the weak. Such is its absence that I will not even seek to portray its presence unless in extremis and only then because I deem that it is the means to achieve that end.
You look on me and think I am like you. Yet we are of such different world. Within me awaits the precision-driven psychopath that I keep entertained with the playing of games, the accumulation of appliances, the creation of empires, the destruction of dynasties, urgent sex and certain other distractions. This amusement is important, for if I was not so amused, the outcome would be so different for those who would encounter me. The bodies would accumulate.
Stripped of what you feel, I look on the world and often feel nothing. There are times where I feel something – the rage, the hatred, the disgust, the antipathy and the power, but there are sustained periods of time where all there is, is the emptiness. Unlike the pure narcissist who must fight against this emptiness, I am able to embrace it. I am able to allow that emptiness to bleed into the world around me. I see there are times when those proximate to me experience the presence of that emptiness also. I see the shift in their countenance. The nervous flicker of their glance towards me, a sudden shift as if the temperature in the room has dropped by many degrees, a shudder which washes over them. I see then that they have felt what I am although they invariably have no idea what it signifies. Instead, they clamour for the familiarity which I am able to impose through the appearance of similarity.
There are those that think that emotion is irrelevant for my kind. That is true of my psychopathy, its relevance is applicable to my narcissism and its provision of fuel. Strip that from me and emotion would be entirely meaningless to me. I watch the world. Evaluating, assessing, calculating and selecting those who will fall prey to me. All must be controlled, but there are those who I select to entertain me. Those who must be the subjects of my game playing, those who must be drawn into my world, pull downwards into the dark depths of my ocean of malice. I am unmatched in my ability to detect those victims. I see YOU. Those who will provide me with greatest level of gratification stand out to me in the manner of their gait, their stance, the language they use and as my cold, cold gaze falls upon them, I know that it is play time.
With that my nostrils flare, I scent my prey and galvanise myself into action ready to make my way towards you and bring you into my world. Effective, calculating and hyper-focussed, all else about the world falls away as I zero in on you. My mind selects the approach, the words I shall use, I have learned the tones to apply, I have fashioned the signals to send you so that I become of your world so that I can take you into my world and play with you.
I care not for you. You are to become mine and I shall possess you, ready to distract and chase away the ever present boredom. I feel that first flicker of anticipation as the game begins as you turn and already my crystal blue stare and welcoming smile have caused you to notice me and await my attendance on you. Already you are caught in my tractor beam and savour the lifting of the ennui as I prepare to feast on you.
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Dear Mr Tudor,
Just when you think it’s safe to go back in the water 🐋
Dalai Lama, kissing a boy on the lips and then asks him to “suck my tongue “ 😱
Now let’s hear everyone come to his defence
No wonder I don’t trust people !
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
And some people think Catholics have the only creeps.
Dearest Viol,
Exactly!
I should’ve expanded “Now let’s hear everyone come to his defence” was in relation to the Dalai and his entourage, cos they always try to backtrack then worm their way out. Dementia and playfulness are not acceptable excuses on this highly inappropriate little scenario.
Speaking of dementia, now for a laugh…..
just saw a video of Joe Biden getting off the plane with his wife, waving to the cameras. greeting the military without saluting them, turned around looking rather lost, then heads straight back to get on the plane 🤣
Don’t be surprised if we see a new female predator running for Presidency haha
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
So many creeps in power…alas, the Non-narcy among us don’t want to do it.
Bubbles, I haven’t calmed down since I saw that video. He comes back to me insistently. Rage and frustration seethe inside of me. At times like this, I hate this world and I hate people. Although, of course, I am generalizing – I meet the good in people too often to marginalize it so recklessly.
This documented incident is so disgusting, that vomit spills out of me and splashes to the sides. Someone, who by age and function, should represent WISDOM and PURITY, showed the most disgusting fucking bottom of the human level. An old man versus a young, trusting boy. Moral decay and fall.
I don’t know, if people realize the seriousness of this event. I think, that the reluctance of youth to have PHYSICAL contact with old age is natural – and this is already terrible (1). Forced touch by environmental pressure (2). The mouth is the most intimate part of the human body. This old corpse has defiled it! (3).
—–
I once wrote here on the blog, that after being raped several times, I had to talk to my abuser (then for me he was an old man with a disgusting 40-45 year old body) for about 2 hours to save my life. Finally, when he had his hand on the doorknob leading to my freedom, when I didn’t know if he would open it or kill me, he kissed me on the mouth. I stayed still, didn’t turn my head. I was like a statue with my eyes open. I was only focused on whether he was going to press the doorknob or he pull me back inside. After 30 years from this event, I can summarize, that everything that was done to my body at that time has gone into “forgetfulness” (no pain), I don’t remember this man anymore. But that kiss and his goodbye words still burn me like hell.
I understand perfectly well, why a prostitute can give her body, but she doesn’t want kisses.
—–
There is another disgusting thing in this video with the Dalai Lama. It is amused, totally stupid, dull and primitive, or maybe salacious, laughter of the witnesses of this event (4).
The explanation, that these are “innocent jokes” is a fucking oddity! (5) An insult to this boy, his family and followers. It’s not an excuse – it’s another slap in the face with a cheeky smile.
Sorry, I had to let it out. I know it’s too harsh, but my intestines are twisting.
I feel so sorry for that boy 🙁
Dearest Joa,
I could feel your rage and frustration thru your comment and I too find it quite incomprehensible in this day of woke, gender diversity, paedophilia and the like.
The elders sitting next to him laughing are just as guilty in my book. Not funny at all. (I have been known to interject if I’ve seen boys being bullied and asked them if they need help and if they are ok. I would not hesitate to rescue a fish as well, no matter the consequences. That’s my empath warrior showing haha )
He will get off I’m sure because of who he is and what he represents, however, consensus from the masses think otherwise. The comments are scathing.
Now if it were someone from the Catholic Church, as Viol mentioned, they would be sent into exile. Out of site out of mind. I’m sure that poor innocent child will never forget the moment.
I am so saddened by your horrendous story Joa and what you endured, it certainly does not represent who you are nor make you a bad person. You are a heroine in my eyes.
I can recall many a male trying to stick his tongue in my mouth giving hello and goodbye kisses on the cheek…..funny how it happens from the people you least expect.
You’re not alone Joa, at times I hate this world and where we’re heading and the people in it. There’s are stirring of real uneasiness and it certainly doesn’t feel good.
I have lost respect for the Dalai Lama and I’m sure many others have as well. His legacy is now tainted with unforgettable awful images and have definitely left a bad taste in one’s mouth 👅
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Dear Bubbles, I’m so glad you and many others lost respect for him. Indeed his facade seemed perfect to the western world, except it’s not! There is so much dirt behind it, just wait and see. We live in times of exposure of what we believed a safe and fluffy reality. I hope more of them will make the same mistakes as D.L. and lose publicly their influential status.
People who knew and met him, told „he regards everything that comes out of him as holy, so that he prefers to bath in his own holy water, instead of normal water, which he despises“ and if you meet him, you can smell this holiness quite clear.
I never met him, but I witnessed once a similar guru behavior, where the guru let his coterie wash his disgusting, dirty feet in milk and the milk was regarded holy afterwards and the peasants, followers, visitors of this seminar were given to drink it, and most did without questioning! After that he collected money from the holy-drunks for the good cause of helping the starving children in India. Yeah right! WTF your holiness.
This gurus must think to themselves “this sheep are so dumb, no wonder they need my leader-sheep”. People need to wake up to how low they fall and what they are ready to take on themselves and excuse or even protect sick behavior. Well it’s their own decision..can’t force them. Can show and point out if the situation and the level of intelligence allows it and then leave.
Dearest Jordyuin,
👣🥛👣……..🤮 ….that’s just utterly gross!!!
Mr Tudor’s excellent prompt video …..Dalai Lama W.T.F. ….was very much needed and the comments indicate the majority feel the same overall abhorrent disgust.
Whether he’s a narc or not, it does not excuse his “behaviour”. I understand cultural customs and sticking out one’s tongue is a form of greeting along with rubbing noses etc …however, I’ve never heard of a custom that’s say “suck my tongue” upon greeting.
If the old bugga has the onset of dementia, then why haven’t his doctors confirmed this, if so, he should bloody retire! My Catholic girlfriend defended him saying he’s obviously got dementia and felt sorry for him.
I mean, his life’s not that bad, he could spend his days counting his $150mil. What the hell were his coterie doing sitting on their arses and laughing their holy heads off ? They should’ve interjected immediately when they saw the red flags.
Playful ? He clearly appeared to know what he was doing. He made a massive impropriety in today’s standards. Public figures can’t afford to make mistakes, they know the risks involved and must be squeaky clean at all costs. When you start showing signs, retire from the limelight. Oh yes, some people just can’t haha
With all that holy bath water he uses, he certainly missed a few spots.
Watch nothing happen as all will be swept under the mat. Is it just me or has it gone quiet all of a sudden ? Hehe
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Ps I know China wants Tibet back and perhaps this is a manipulation strategy to discredit him and reclaim …..but that’s another story. 🤦♀️
Dear Mr Tudor,
Other “predators” coming into play in a current FB post n reel include those who abused and exploited Justin Bieber when he was a very young rising star (the likes of these so called influential adults eg Jenny McCarthy, Katy Perry, Ellen DeGeneres your nemesis James Corden and David Letterman just to name a few). Absolutely sickening 🤮
No wonder he’s ended up with so many issues. I feel sorry for the poor bugga.
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Sorry, it should’ve said…. him and those around him come to his defence 🤮
Bubbles, that was shocking and disgusting. No one can defend that.
DB
Dearest Duchessbea,
Unfortunately, there’s a case of defence for everyone. The DL is also the political leader of Tibet, so there’s a lot at stake here.
I did watch the full incident and then I saw a video of a monk defending the DL on this “tongue” incidence. As far as I could interpret in his defence (it was so confusing, very wordy plus he was extremely hard to understand). He basically implied that those of us that saw negativity in that incident instead of beauty are all unintelligent little children that need to focus and learn the overall big picture. We are not worldly enough, apparently.
Namaste 🙏🏻
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Dear Mr Tudor,
I came across a reel on FB about this very upset and teary female describing her biology lecture she attended when she was 16 years old. The lecturer was a very caring loving kind and compassionate teacher btw, anyhoo, she walks into the room and all the desks are in a circle. In the middle there’s a table with a goldfish in a fishbowl.
So, the lecturer walks in all militant like and sternly says “sit down, shut up, don’t speak, don’t move, if you do you, you will automatically fail the class”. So he then takes the goldfish out of the bowl and places it on the table and then proceeds to walk out of the room and shuts the door. After 2 1/2 minutes silence, a very stressed female goes over to grab the goldfish and places it back in the bowl. Straight away, the lecturer walks back in, looks at everyone and says “look at what the world has done to you, you have betrayed yourselves, for what ? “
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
HG’s knowledge is as deep as the ocean itself.
They say that “It takes one to know one”
HG knows how and why “they” think the way “they” do
This makes the information he provides priceless.
I love reading this blog, but enjoy the audio information the best. I find HG’s voice to be calming. It is amazing how the information just “clicks”.
Thanks again HG
And Happy Easter everyone on this blog.
Tales of the Unexpected story ‘Genesis’ was rather interesting, whether fictional or not, about Hitler’s parents.
Asp Emp – I am going to check out that episode.
WhoCares, I watched some of the re-runs that aired last year, the above episode was one of them. The endings tend to give an unexpected ending 🙂
Asp Emp,
There’s a YT channel that has some of those episodes…my “Watch Later” list getting very unwieldy!!
Good thing HG’s videos are mostly just audio (multi-tasking!).
Omg, wasn’t expecting that ending! won’t spoiler it, but Roald Dahl🏆
Thank you for sharing this one Aspi!
Jordyguin, yes, it was very well done, glad you watched it 🙂
Aspi, this episode is a genius! It took Roald Dahl only 25min to explain how Hitlers may be created. A Patrinarc (genes) and a „paralyzed“ Empath or perhaps a CoD + LOCE and voila🎂 Who is to blame? He was made, just as his parents were made. It’s a vicious spin from generation to generation. He turned out with a greater energetic capacity and efficiency (school) compared to his Patrinarc..
I would love to know how Roald Dahl viewed him actually and what was his intention with this episode. It definitely gives a different understanding of “why? – that’s why!”
Now we can make some conclusion based on the KTN, but before that? Dahl must have known a lot of things!!
Jordyguin, Roald Dahl was a genius, obviously very well-read, thought outside the box, looked at things / the world differently and wrote it all down, not caring what other people thought if they were ‘offended’, chuffed when people loved his writings. He wanted people to ‘see’ into how he saw the world through his mind, the creativity, the possibility of using the mind to ‘paint’ images of how he may have ‘viewed’ some people (grinning). Think of Douglas Adams, Stephen King, Guy de Maupassant and their own creations (writings). Some of these people wrote through their ’emotions’ and mental states indirectly by redirecting how they ‘felt’ onto paper. Without artists like these, people would not necessarily ‘learn’ to use their minds to ‘create’ their own “art”, whether dark, or, light.
Yes, I think Roald understood people and their behaviours, through his own experiences and observations. He described human behaviours extremely well. I do have one of his books and I intend to re-read it.
I think, maybe, Dahl appreciated the creativity of intelligent people but not the inhumane activities against people, or the environment. That is just an opinion.
Asp Emp,
Haven’t seen that but I used to love Tales of the Unexpected on the rare occasion I was allowed to stay up late to watch it! I can still remember the intro and the dancing woman silhouetted. It scared me that programme! Mind you all sorts scared me as a kid.
1 comment and 1 question :
1. Just want to add that the very first Columbo episodes are great psychopath examples. Later, it gets confused. Also the reality TV series “most evil” I think is helpful in understanding differences.
2. HG?
I was wondering recently – so most psychopaths and I guess sociopaths are what they are since birth. But do you believe that there are some who became that way through extreme experiences in very early childhood?
Like… I think most mental issues are more a trauma, incl pipolar, etc.
But esp with sociopaths I wondered if a trauma can’t have disabled certain parts of the brain… or conscience
I see in myself that I had some extreme reactions to very painful experiences.
I had read lengthy reports, 1st person, of people who had been programmed as children as sleepers, etc.,, and in that context, somehow, I came across accounts of how powerful families / clans, program their children and make them desensitised on purpose.
Those powerful groups who are said to rule quite a bit of our world.
Would you differentiate between people who have no regard for others because of extreme experiences and conditioning and those who were born like that?
Is, it important?
I have met a, few disturbed personalities who clearly hadn’t been able to cope with their upbringing and didn’t set out to harm anyone, they just did, because their mind was truly fucked up..
Very good. I hate it when that all gets mixed up, esp in movies, too.
Or when people don’t understand why I don’t want to attend certain events when certain people are present.
I have watched the series Dahmer and thought for a momentiit was another false portrayal of a psychopath, but they did actually really well, as he wasn’t a psychopath at all. They did also very well regarding his awareness. Also about genetic / environment. Great portrayal of his narcissistic mother.
I still think that my ex narc is a narcopath, but fortunately, that’s not relevant anymore.
Needless to say that I have met my share of sociopaths, but more often antisocial personality types.
I seem to attract more narcs and psychopaths though.
Might have to do with my own reaction to sociopathic behavior, I am not conditioned for that.
Ava,
I’m not a numbers person, at all. For some reason though when it comes to personality disorders, I’m more interested in stats and science than usual.
HG estimates roughly 17% of the population are narcissists.
The quoted figure (not HG) for psychopaths is anywhere between 1 and 3%. Within that 1-3% psychopath population, only 10% of those are said to be violent / aggressive and within that 10% violent aggressive group only 1% are said to be highly antisocial, violent and aggressive. The ‘above the snow line’ psychopath.
Given the figures, and considering the fact that those diagnosed with BPD are actually narcissists or misdiagnosed PTSD sufferers, I can’t help but wonder, how many people diagnosed as psychopaths are actually narcissists manifesting malign behaviours? If a serial killer is threatening and torturing a victim, would that not be fuel? Which out of the two personalities – narcissist and psychopath – needs fuel?
If the term narcissist is thrown around to describe someone who is actually normal but behaving like an arsehole, how many people are viewed as being psychopaths when they actually are nothing of the sort?
Hitler for example. Psychopath, has to be. He fits the societal view of evil. Therefore evil Hitler was definitely a psychopath. Was he though? Or was he a highly paranoid narcissist? No idea, but you see my thinking here.
How many people in prisons were later diagnosed as psychopaths? Who diagnosed them? Were they diagnosed using the PCLR or an alternative? Was the person administering the PCLR trained to administer and interpret the test? I’m not being funny but I had to take a week’s residential training course just to administer a bog standard business personality test! I’m expected to believe that all those administering PCLR tests are qualified to do so? How many psychologists don’t spot narcissism? Are they just really really good at spotting psychopathy then?
Maybe I’m just cynical, but it would be no surprise to me if we find that a significant percentage of those diagnosed as psychopaths have actually been wrongly diagnosed and the personalities we often believe to be psychopaths are actually narcissists.
How effective is the PCLR at determining psychopathy? It might demonstrate antisocial traits but does it prove psychopathy? Robert Hare wanted psychopathy do be included separately in the most recent version of the DSM. Guess what he wanted to call it. Hare’s Disorder. Hahaha! True that.
Trust no one. 😂
Xx
Bear in mind torturing a victim is also entertaining, thus alleviating the boredom.
HG,
True, and boredom seems to be the overarching experience of the psychopath. Would you describe the psychopath’s desire to alleviate boredom as being as intense as a narcissist’s need for fuel though?
If both are torturing a victim, which one gets a greater thrill / feels more powerful? Does a psychopath even seek power over people other than to help achieve a broader objective?
My suggestion isn’t that a psychopath can’t be a serial killer. It’s that a serial killer is more likely to be a narcissist.
As intense, yes, as often, no.
The feeling of power is greater for the narcissist because of how this is linked to fuel. Yes, because being able to assert power over somebody is part of addressing the issue of boredom.
HG,
Thank you for your response and elaboration. That was the way I was thinking about it. I’m underestimating the boredom aspect. I need to think about that some more.
I was walking the dog last night, listening to your latest ‘ in the mind of’ video. As I was walking and listening I was thinking about various things, I caught myself doing it and realised that other than when concentrating on a task my mind is filled with people. I counted thoughts on 6 different people just during that one walk. What they’ve told me, what they are doing, what they are worried about. I realised that if I didn’t think about people, predominately those I care about but sometimes in more ‘world’ or general terms, my mind would be more empty in between tasks. There would be my own inner voice and little else. It made me wonder if this is the emptiness, or, the cause of the emptiness. Essentially the emptiness being an absence, of emotional empathy for people. Choose a subject and I’ll think about the subject in terms of people, it’s impact on people, or people involved. Both narcissist and psychopath interact and when the interaction is over that’s it, unless prompted.
For me, and I suspect for other empaths, those people thoughts are always running like background music unless I’m extremely focussed on a more intellectual type of task. So there is no emptiness, and my boredom is more of a surface, lack of meaningful task kind of boredom.
I need to think about the boredom more to get a better understanding about how it would feel if all those people left my mind. Your boredom is not similar to my boredom.
More to consider.
@HG and TS,
I’m following your trail of thought and I believe I know what you mean here. My mind is always thinking of people in my life, what they’re going through, how things are affecting them in their life, how I feel for them and what they’re going through, trying to come up with a solution for them…and then I go to the next person, or back and forth between the two or more people in my head that day…my mind wanders from problem to problem and like you, TS, it doesn’t stop unless I have a more pressing mental task I’m doing, otherwise I think on this kind of stuff, while doing lawn work or the like.
I also think you’re on to something about narcissism being more prominent in serial killers than psychopathy. My brother was a psychopath, but he wasn’t going around hitting people and bragging about how hitting them gave him sexual excitement. No, LMRSOMATIC did that and said that he got hard from hitting people, especially his stepkids. He told me once, “I got you here, so I could kill you” and then he laughed at my expression of fear and pretended to feel bad about causing my fear…he was like, “Awwww, I’m sorry *laughs* I was kidding, I really scared you awwww, look at you, already to run *laughs* He didn’t know how close he came to getting a broken nose. I didn’t find it funny and he lost all chances of any alone time with me. I know he bragged about enjoying inflicting pain , giving corporal punishment to his stepkids, he called it that with a sadistic smile on his face. He was a sadistic narcissist. I’ll never forget any of the bragging he did , in regards to physical abuse…the feeling I got off of him was one of dark pleasure, dark, twisted enjoyment from another’s pain. He thought he was really dark, he prided himself on what he thought was dark about him, but yet his hands were sweaty and he got nervous in crowds. He feared exposure, I felt his fear, whenever he heard people were talking about him. I thought that was a ridiculous thing to be afraid of, what people thought of him. He even said to me, during our last phone conversation, “Don’t hate me, I don’t want you to hate me.” Why would he care? Xx
Rebecca,
That’s an interesting example because in many ways I think your description of the behaviour shown by the LMR Somatic falls closer to how a lot of people (not on here) would imagine the psychopath.
“Don’t hate me. I don’t want you to hate me.” He definitely sounds Mid Range there. (I want you to tell me that you don’t hate me so this gives me fuel and signals you are under control, plus I’m a good person really.)
The psychopath could theoretically say similar but I imagine it would be worded differently. Less whiny. The motivation would be different, more ‘I’ll keep you on side because I need you to keep quiet about my dodgy business dealings.’ The objective being to keep you quiet and on side rather than to gain fuel from a response. So in this sense, control is necessary because it furthers a definite objective rather than asserting control to counter a threat to control. The psychopath knows that he couldn’t care less about what you think of him from an opinion perspective but he will care if it causes him a problem or presents an obstacle to him achieving an objective.
No emotional empathy is no emotional empathy but my feeling is that the psychopath would appear as far less emotional than the narcissist. Honestly though, I’ve never met a psychopath in person. I’ve communicated with two and there’s a definite communication style, I just can’t quite describe exactly what it is! It isn’t lack of humour, it isn’t necessarily less descriptive, it’s kind of a little more ‘clipped’, and far more concise!
When I communicate I think I automatically consider how the information will be interpreted. I want to be understood first and foremost but I also care about how a comment might impact the reader / listener. So my communication includes my preemptive response to an imagined future response from the reader / listener if that makes sense? I could make the same statement to two different people but the wording of the statement would be slightly different for each. I think that’s part of it. For the psychopath the statement is the statement. Maybe it’s a difference in ‘tone’ that I notice, not sure but it’s something!
Xx
Hi TS,
I have to jump in for a minute. Mr. Tudor has said on several occasions that narcissists don’t kill. If they kill, they lose their fuel source and the narcissism will stop the narcissist before that happens. Sometimes there may be a glitch and they go too far but more often they won’t kill. So how can a serial killer more likely be a narcissist? I can get on board with narcissistic sociopath or narcissistic psychopath but not a pure narcissist. Unless I misunderstood.
Mr. Tudor.
Am I incorrect in my thinking?
Thank you.
I haven’t stated that a narcissist will not kill, I have stated it is unusual for it to happen. See “Why Does the Narcissist Want You Dead”.
Mr. Tudor,
Thank you for your response. I apologize for my misstatement.
I have follow up questions. Since it’s unusual for a narcissist to kill, would you also say that its unusual for a pure narcissist to be a serial killer? Would a serial killer more likely be a narcissistic sociopath or narcissistic psychopath?
Thank you
A serial killer is most likely to be diagnosed with ASPD, although those with NPD and paranoid schizophrenia may also be serial killers.
Mr. Tudor,
Oh wow, I hadn’t considered other comorbidities like paranoid schizophrenia. Once again you’ve enlightened me. Thank you.
Hey Leigh,
For me if I imagine an individual selecting targets relatively randomly (not directly associated with the killer) and killing repeatedly as a serial killer does, I associate it more with an intense desire to control the victim (any victim) and a feeling of power generated from the act of killing in close quarters. The ‘buzz’ from killing feels as if it would be generated from the fuel and control rather than through boredom or need for entertainment. That was my thinking there. However, post a comment from HG I think I am underestimating the intensity of the boredom experienced by a psychopath and the lengths he might go to to alleviate it.
Fortunately serial killers are incredibly rare. So if most are psychopaths they aren’t representative of the majority of psychopaths, similar with narcissists.
Hi TS,
To me, killing repeatedly and randomly, would relieve the boredom of the psychopath. I don’t know if its about fuel. Since the victim would be a random person, at best they would be a tertiary source. So even if they got fuel from watching them squirm and hearing them cry for mercy, it wouldn’t be very potent fuel since they’re only a tertiary source. A narcissist has a greater need for fuel then to fill the boredom. They need their fuel matrixes to reach far and wide so they can continue to gather fuel. They may torture a victim and enjoy the fuel they get from them begging for mercy, but they probably wouldn’t go through with killing them because that would cut off their fuel supply.
As I’m writing this, I’m thinking both scenarios are horrific.
Hi Leigh, I think you’re onto something here. Pure psychopaths don’t need fuel but they get bored, killing, watching a person or am animal die, due to what they’ve done would possibly alleviate boredom, be interesting to them. And it wouldn’t matter who it was, that’s moot for them, possibly.
Hi AV, I remember Mr. Tudor talking about the boredom in one of his interviews. He was explaining how they alleviate the boredom. He said something along the lines of, I wonder what these animals bones would sound like when they’re breaking? Then he said, oh, that’s what they sound like. I took that as, not only did the act of breaking the bones alleviated the boredom but also understanding what happens from that action, alleviated the boredom as well.
Leigh, yes! Or anticipating watching the IPPS scream! When I read that somewhere, a long time ago, I thought, that is such, to me, an odd thing to think. At the time I thought it was from the narcissist side but maybe it was the psychopathy showing?
Hi Leigh,
Yes, I see what you mean about low potency fuel from a tertiary source but there would be a lot of it at high frequency and in close proximity. These people are so messed up that I would question if sometimes they fantasise the victim is actually someone else, mother, ex girlfriend etc. So I’m not even sure in those circumstances, where a victim would sit in terms of tertiary through ‘imagined’ primary. I don’t know how long someone would need to be held captive for them to move from tertiary to secondary either. Often they aren’t captive for long, so I can’t see them moving too far up the ranks, but it’s such an unusual and extreme situation, I’m not sure whether the usual framework would apply. Maybe it would, maybe it’s shocking and unusual to us but not to them.
Xx
Hi TS,
After I wrote my comment I wondered if quantity would offset potency. You also make a valid point that maybe because of their delusion the victims are considered a primary source or a CANIPSS.
Serial killers are a bunch of sick bastards, so who knows what the heck they’re thinking.
Leigh,
I agree, in many ways ‘sick bastard’ is really the only classification needed!
Xx
I myself found the “most evil” series really helpful in understanding differences.
And I think HG hasn’t stated many times why it wouldn’t be of worth to kill anyone. Most narcissist killers, I believe, are known to have killed friends and family,… not walking around as serial killers of strangers.
I might be wrong.
My ex is malign, but he wouldn’t kill anyone (I think), as there is nothing in it for him. Too much hassle.
I think narcissist killers were more than once trapped by their narcissism, they wanted to brag about it. Sorry, just random thoughts.
Never trust any statistics you haven’t faked yourself….
🤣🤣😂😂😂
Anna,
Absolutely!!
I read psychopaths feel a pressure lifting versus happiness. So perhaps relieving boredom is a relief of sorts? Funny story: I once went to the museum of death in Hollywood on Halloween. I had no idea it was mainly a serial killer collection or killer collection with real life letters from serial killers, photos and real material items from death scenes. I felt sick and literally ran through the museum to get out jostling the crowd. The manager or owner opened the exit door and found me outside sitting on a bench and he asked me “ Did you enjoy yourself?” Ha ha
I read about Hitler that he was veeery different to his inner circles, compared to what he portrait to the public. He was described as extremely magnetic, quiet, calm. There are aspects to his personality, interests and what he did in all kind of fields and the people he gathered around himself, which make him stand out. I think he calculated every move, every appearance, every recording of himself and every encounter, very fluently. Also to direct and to keep let’s say even one Josef Mengele – given his school/cadre in The Weighty 80 – under control, it must take a higher echelon Greater narcissistic psychopath, I would think. And Hitler had to control, lead and impress a whole bunch of them (plus the many allies). I don’t believe he shot himself, either. As a psychopath with his calculating ability, he must have seen the outcome and prepared for it. I think, his portrayal nowadays as sort of a psychotic loose canon or stupor is understandable, but is not accurate. I think the tantrums were part of the facade and a weapon, and the fury, but nothing went to waste.
Jordyguin,
Absolutely, Hitler had brutal characters in key positions and it does suggest that he had to be the baddest badass to keep control. Someone suggested I look at Hitler’s relationship with his mother when examining what Hitler was. I’m led to believe that this relationship was extremely close, genuine, but I admit I haven’t looked at it. Obviously the relationship could be ‘reportedly’ loving without actually being loving, so how much weight there was to the comment I’m not sure. It’s almost impossible to look at Hitler objectively too given what he was responsible for. I’d struggle to get past that.
Psychopaths will commit suicide if it is the most logical option. They won’t do it out of fear, distress or depression though as those factors are outside of their realm of experience. So if Hitler was a psychopath and he believed he would be captured and killed or captured and incarcerated he might see suicide as the most palatable and logical alternative.
Xx
I think it is terrible and a sign of our society, in that Hitler is one of the most famous and talked about people in human history.
Not someone who found a cure for a disease or some other wonderful positive discovery!
No Hitler.
Awful… human fascination with darkness. It is sad indeed.
Anna,
I see what you mean, it would be nicer if we held up the heroes rather than re examined the tyrants.
I come at it from a different angle though. I don’t think Hitler and what he did should ever be forgotten, because if it is forgotten then similar on a similar scale could happen again. By understanding what happened, what he was, what motivated him, by being shocked and disgusted and finding agreement in the shock and disgust there is hope perhaps for a better future. Was the holocaust down to just one man, was it a grand design from the start or did things evolve into genocide? Did the movement get away from him? If so, who was involved, why did they become involved and at what point might it have been prevented? That might be a naive statement, given what still occurs in parts of today’s world. Humankind never seems to learn, but I do have a need to understand the dark because it doesn’t seem to be going away.
Hitler is a simple example to use as a representation of evil. He’s indefensible, but in his own mind he was right to do what he did. I think there is value in understanding the mindset of someone like that. It isn’t comfortable, but remaining naive can’t ever lead to change.
It makes me wonder about AI and the Singularity. I can’t see how that can be avoided. It’ll be a race like any arms race because we won’t recognise a potential common enemy. Two schools of thought there, machines will end up enslaving us, or AI would recognise the predatory nature of human beings, see the futility of it and save us from ourselves. I’m not hopeful, difficult to teach a machine emotional empathy!
Xx
@Jordy
I also read that allegedly he was masochistic in the bedroom and liked being peed on and all kinds of freaky shit
eeeww !
“why are you gay?” my Fuhrer
Ava, interesting re your view on Dahmer’s mother. I had the father down as an N and the mother I could be convinced either way. Either the victim of an N husband and son or an N. I couldn’t make up my mind based solely on the series.
Alexissmith, your comment is so interesting to me, and shows how far I have to go. I had not even considered the dad for any issues, but the mom’s behavior was so bizarre, she stood out to me. Didn’t even consider if her behavior was a reaction to her husband and or son. Thank you for bringing this to my attention, we need to look at all parties through the narc glasses, and not assume or dismiss anything.
It was a shame we didn’t get to enough of the mother in the series AV. I would most certainly have been interested in learning more about her. Not interested enough to google and find out hahaha Thoroughly enjoyed the series though. Very well done. At first I thought they dragged it out a bit too long, but once I settled into it, it was fascinating to have more insight into both the serial killer, victims and families than many other series provide. I loved the neighbour who just kept calling the police. Absolutely shocking though how they failed to listen, makes you realise how you really have to not give up, but need that evidence to support what you’re saying when dealing with any N.
But yes with regards to the mother, she could certainly fit with HGs analysis of borderlines, either an empath caught up in the quagmire of all things N, or a mid-range narc herself.
Alexissmith, I agree with your synopsis entirely. I watched it with my son and we had to take it in small bits, quite overwhelming even that way. But it was also very fascinating.
He was diagnosed with BPD, among other things.
I found that interesting considering HG’s thinking on BPD.
Dear Mr Tudor,
Drats, bugga bum Paltrow won
What a bloody futile waste of time and resources 🥱
I didn’t like either of them
Next ……
oh yes back to Harry
🤣
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Mr. Tudor,
You’ve ignited my truthseeker trait. If I may, I have some more questions.
You’ve said that a psychopath does not experience fear? Does the sociopath experience fear?
With regards to awareness, do all pure psychopaths & narcissistic psychopaths have awareness of their psychopathy? Does the sociopath have awareness of their sociopathy?
Thank you.
Yes.
Yes of their behaviour but they may not always know what it is.
Yes of their behaviour but they may not always know what it is.
Thank you for your response, Mr. Tudor.
Rebecca
Let any fear be not of change, but of never changing. There should be no fear greater (for anyone) than handing over more of the limited years of one’s life to the abuse and control of others and having only known that before you leave this earth. There is so much more.
NarcAngel,
Thank you for your advice,seriously I appreciate it. I think I’ve told you before that I admire your logical thinking. I hope to get so logical one day and not feel like such an emotional basket case. I hate that my emotions get so strong for me. The anxiety alone is almost paralyzing and that makes leaving all the harder for me. It’s not like I don’t want to leave, I do, I’m just fighting this anxiety of the future. I’ve been with MLSOMATIC since 2000 and got married in 2004, it’s a long time to be with someone and put up with alcoholism from him for 16 years, and he’s now talking about going back to drinking. I can’t go through it all again, I just can’t. I won’t, I’m not going to do Round 2.
I wanted HG, NarcAngel, Leigh, AspEmp, WhoCares, WiserNow, Joa, JB, AV and anyone else I forgot…to know I’m contacting the EAP program at work for help getting out of a bad situation, because I’m just not able to deal with the stress of getting out alone. I feel overwhelmed and an emotional mess. Ill let everyone know more, as I learn more. I’m scared to death, but going forward anyway. Xx
Rebecca,
I think reaching out to your EAP (Employee Assistance Program) is a great idea. They have mental health professionals and legal counsel that can help you.
You’re going to be ok Rebecca. You’re stronger than you think! You’ve got this!
Thank you Leigh,
I’ve been stressing entirely too much about my decision because I want to succeed and not fail. Legal Aid is a great source to have and use. I feel more confident I can do this. Xx
Hi Rebecca,
When you have these moments of worry, stress or self doubt, ask yourself, “Is this my ET? Am I thinking logically?” When I ask myself those questions, I know the answer. Its often our ET conning us.
Stay strong! You absolutely can do this!
Hi Leigh,
I’m a worry wart during times of stress and I overthink, over analyze and beat it into the ground. I’m worse than a dog with a bone, dropping it or letting it go doesn’t come across my mind, until my best friend slaps some sense into me….not literally, though I’m sure she’s thought about it. 😂 I need it, otherwise I’d drive myself nuts, chewing, chewing and chewing over it. Thanks for your confidence in me. I know I’ll feel better about me, when I get gone. GOSO, I should get the shirt 😂 xx
@NArcAngel,
Thanks, I understand what you’re saying and thanks for your advice. Hopefully I’ll be having a new beginning and a new future. Xx
Hi Rebecca,
I’m sorry if this is a duplicate. I seem to have lost my message. It up and vanished like a fart in the wind, lol. Just like Andy Dufresne from Shawshank Redemption.
I have to chuckle because I’ve been told I beat a dead horse on several occasions. I think, overthink & then overthink some more, lol.
I have a wonderful empathic friend who has helped in more ways than I can count. I’m very grateful for her. She’s patient, supportive & understanding. She’ll also give it to me straight when I need it.
I’m glad to hear that you have someone in your life like that as well.
When you finally decide to leave – it’s easy and fast.
It is more difficult later – to maintain the status of independence. This is not easy. You definitely have to like solitude – you will face it many times, even if you have 100 friends.
Everything has its pluses and minuses.
Hi Joa,
I know you were talking to Rebecca but I just wanted to tell you that you really remind me of my empathic friend. There’s no judgement. She just lays it out for me. She wanted to prepare me so she told me the same thing. There will be a lot of alone time.
The ironic thing is for almost my whole relationship, I’ve been alone. That’s part of the problem for me. I have to take care of things like I’m a single mom but yet I’m married. I’ve had many people say to me, “Is your husband real? He’s never around. I never see him.” And they’re not kidding.
I’ll find things to occupy my time. I want to go back to school. I love to learn. But a little solitude, actually sounds peaceful.
Rebecca,
Worry isn’t pleasant at all. I find what helps me is imagining the worse case scenario of a possible outcome, then think through how I’d cope with that. Personally I then find you can deal with whatever the outcome is.
Alexis,
Agree with you there. Some people might say that’s quite a pessimistic approach but I don’t think so.
I remember my first go on a jet ski. I’d been on the back and loved it, but I felt very unstable on my own. Every bounce felt like I would be thrown off it. I wasn’t having a good time. My worse case was being thrown off, I worried the safety wristband wouldn’t stop the engine. I took the screw it approach in the end, put my foot down, full pelt and turned hard. Threw myself off, engine stopped and I got back on. Had a fab time after that, no fear. 😂
Xx
Love your jet ski story TS! Sounds like lots of fun!!
I can see why some people would see that as pessimistic but it certainly doesn’t feel that way to me at all. It always helps me get back on track with lightening speed from almost all situations and maintain my positivity even if it does appear pessimistic from someone else’s perspective. Of course I would always do anything to prevent worse case but if you have in the back of your mind how you’d deal with that then you’re always prepared without getting stuck in that fight or flight mode.
Alexis,
Yep totally. I’m inclined to be more pessimistic if I don’t have the worst case plan. I’m terrible with uncertainty in general, the plan makes me feel more capable, more prepared. Xx
Leigh,
😂 The same thing happened to me yesterday and I had to rewrite my whole comment. 😂 “Fart in the wind” 😂 Poof 😂 OH, yes…my mother would say that to me, too that I could beat a dead horse and I drive her nuts. My husband used to tell me, I drove him to drink…No, don’t blame your drinking on me, that’s your own shit there….I would tell him. I’ve lived with both those two assholes, trying to tear me down and I retaliated with my sarcastic mouth. Leigh, Do you find that the comebacks come out of you, without hesitations?? Mine are almost automatic and it doesn’t matter, who’s saying them to me. I just respond with defensive comebacks. I’ve even gotten sharky back to supervisors and then they realize what they said and how they said it to me, and some have even apologized to me. I’d apologized regardless,if they did or not. I would say, I’m sorry, my mouth sometimes runs ahead of my brain. OOps 😂 xx
Hi Rebecca,
LOL! This mouth of mine got me into sooooooooo much trouble when I was younger. I would have mini eruptions all the time. I remember one time yelling at my boss in the cafeteria. I don’t remember what it was about but I thought for sure I was gonna get fired. Luckily, I didn’t. But when I think about it now, he was probably a narc and I fueled him. He would provoke me all the time. My current boss will do the same.
TS said something yesterday about using sarcasm too. I’m not sarcastic. I just explode. When I lived with my mother, after my father left, I would often put holes in the doors. They were the cheap doors that were hollow but every single door had at least one hole in it. I would also tell her to go eff herself. I didn’t use sarcasm, it was pure aggression. She probably got off on it.
Getting older, learning about narcissism & my Geyser has made me more aware and I erupt a lot less now. Having this awareness has made me stop, think & then respond, rather than react. Now, that’s not always the case. Sometimes I still react but I’m making it a point to try to respond instead of react. Part of that is because I refuse to allow a narc to get to me like that. But also, people in general won’t take you seriously when you erupt or react. If you have a well thought out response, they’ll be more wiling to listen.
This comment got away from me, lol. Yes, my mouth would often run ahead of my brain too.
This reminds me when I stood up to a boss. You must be ready to quit. The first was when I was 19 and worked at a top night club in Philly. There were sexual fantasy nights where the pretty waitresses and bartenders and the handsome male waiters and bartenders wore next to nothing. I came as historic Aphrodite in full covering Greek gown and grapes. My boss was a coke addict who would grab staff and demand make up. One very busy night I was not wearing lipstick, he grabbed my arm and was going to take me to put on lipstick. I threw my cocktail tray filled with drinks on him and told him to go to rehab. Everyone there secretly applauded me. I was working on Philadelphia Magazine for peanuts at the time during the day so I had to get two other jobs to make rent that summer. I was 18. Much later in my 20s, I was asked to do something unethical as a lawyer. I filled up my boxes to leave. I got an apology and a partnership. The third time was in my 40s and my sexist old school boss who would remind me he was my boss, was stealing my clients and giving them to a man. He even told me through HR director that he thought women should wear pants and short shoes like men. I emailed back saying to him that I dressed for success and that if he liked I could ask the OC Woman’s Lawyer organism for a brief on his desire for a certain dress code. I also threatened to sue. The firm ( his own) men (most) and women alike supported me. And to this day, I am there after brokering a deal with man to pay for rent and staff ( good deal) as I started my own law firm. I probably help fund his retirement. He may not like me but he respects me. There comes a time when you draw a line. I find if you want respect, demand it. It’s your right!
How does secret applause work? Do people clap under the tablecloth, wait until they are outside and burst into rapturous applause with the same level of relief of holding in wind and expelling it in the safety of the bathroom or do you mean you envisaged everybody applauding you?
HG,
Re: secret applause
“wait until they are outside and burst into rapturous applause with the same level of relief of holding in wind and expelling it in the safety of the bathroom…”
Thank goodness I hadn’t just sipped coffee on that one…
@HG,
I laughed out load at your question on silent applauding. I got a lot of shocked stares at work 😂 😂 xx
@WhoCares,
I’m response to your comment about you wondering if empaths have a self defense mechanism in place….yes, we do, it’s called our conditioning is our defense mechanism, when you learn to keep the narc “happy” then you receive less punishment, at least I realized it work like for me and my narc mother’s relationship/dynamic. It may not work for another narc, but it’s what I’ve come to figure out about myself and my interactions with my mother. Xx Hope that helps. Xx
Leigh,
I am both sarcastic mouth and my dad’s little dynamite, as he called me every time I would go off. 😂 There were a few times, when I broke things, like my dad’s moving dolly. My brother provoked me into snapping and instead of beating him, I slammed my dad’s dolly against a tree , repeatily until the dolly lost its wheels and I calmed down. My brother, back then, was able to push my snap buttons and he would just enjoy the explosions. I have Geyser too and I do have better control of my temper now. I think mainly because the two people, my brother and mother, who caused me to snap so much, aren’t alive anymore, so no provoking me from them…..I didn’t punch doors, my brother did that. I mainly punched him, even my older cousin remembers how he would taunt me, until I snapped. I used to think I was the mean one, but now I realize I was just reacting to abuse. Now I see him so clearly, after the ND came back psychopath for my brother…I realize most of his behavior towards me was because he was bored. I used to regret keeping him at arms length, after what he tried when I was 12, you know after he died. I felt guilt and regret, thinking I was too hard on him and too standoffish at times with him. I regretted not having a normal, healthy relationship with my brother, but that wasn’t really my fault. I was just reacting, again, to abuse.
We both were abused, so I can’t blame him for the way he was. He was just surviving hell too, and I know some people won’t understand that he was still my brother and everything that comes with that. It didn’t stop me from feeling empathy for him, understanding his point of view and still loving him. I just didn’t trust him and so I held parts of myself away from him…the ones I truly trust, I hold nothing back xx
Hi Rebecca, I have very strong feelings about people using being abused as an excuse to abuse others. I think its bullshit. You and I were both abused and we don’t abuse others. You’re just excusing your brother’s behavior toward you and his behavior was inexcusable.
I think for you to truly move passed this you have to stop making excuses and feeling guilt & regret for not letting your brother in. It doesn’t matter that he was your brother. He abused you and I don’t think he deserved your kindness and understanding. We often don’t have empathy for ourselves. By making excuses, you’re accepting the behavior. I think you deserve better.
Hi Rebecca,
I wanted to add that sometimes we desperately want our loved ones to be good people. It can be a tough pill to swallow.
When we admit to ourselves that they aren’t good people, it’s easier to let them go.
@Leigh,
You’re right and I’ve been told recently, from a few people, that I tend to overlook and dismiss abuse. I guess it’s a form of coping with it for me because I lived it for so long and evidently still living in it, just not as bad, in my point of view. My childhood was worse, than my life now, so to me it doesn’t seem that bad… but, now my eyes are open and I see it’s still abuse, whether it’s physical or not, doesn’t matter, abuse is abuse….is what I have to drill into my own head. I do make excuses for my abusers, past and present. It’s hard to unlearn a coping behavior, habit, whatever you want to call it. You’re right, my brother and mother weren’t good to me and they couldn’t have loved me, treating me the way they did. They’re both gone, I shouldn’t miss them and I’m relieved they can’t hurt me again, and that gives me the most peace at night now. Xx
Rebecca, you and I are so similar. I feel the same.as you. The abuse now isn’t like the abuse I sustained as a child. That doesn’t negate the fact that its still abuse. The abusers rely on us minimizing it. We have to stop doing that..
I also believe that I’m inherently bad. I’ve thought that I must deserve this for some reason. The other day on the blog I wrote, I wish my husband would shuffle off. My first thought was who thinks these kinds of things and then who writes them for people to see. I must be a terrible person. But that’s bullshit also. Its because my emotional empathy for him is so eroded that I don’t care if he lives or died. When we think we’re inherently bad, it’s our ET conning us to stay. We’ve been gaslit and conditioned by our abusers since birth. We’ve been made to believe that it’s our fault & that we have to stay and fix it. No, it’s not our fault and no, we don’t have to fix it. Continualy thinking that you’re the bad one has kept you on the wheel of misery.
When you start feeling bad, stop and ask.yourself why and ask yourself if it makes sense. Then call it what it is, “this is my emotional thinking conning me.” Once you realize that you’ve been conditioned to believe this about yourself, you’ll be angry at your perpetrators and start to feel better about yourself. Then, you’ll not only escape them physically, you’ll escape them emotionally too.
@Leigh,
I spent the majority of my life believing I was the bad person, because that’s what I was told by my mother and sometimes by my brother. I even thought I was the narcissist and not my husband. It’s hard for me to get my head around the idea that my husband is the narcissist, my mother most likely was too and my brother was a psychopath. It’s just all shocking, but yet I can see the behaviors HG teaches about, from my husband…and my mother definitely was manipulative and abusive…but, part of me still wants to yell back…I loved them, they couldn’t have been bad..no, no, no! Why do I accept their bad behavior as something I deserve so much that I dismiss it??
Why is it sometimes accepted?
Because lesser abuse can masquerade as love when compared to more extreme experiences and there is a need to feel worthy of it?
Lesser, or not as obvious, abuse, when we’ve been conditioned to strong and clear abuse, can be accepted as loving behavior.
What’s worse, I didn’t even realize what my mother had done was abuse, it was the strong, physical, clearly abuse kind also, until in my early 30’s. Starting from that point, I had no clue what “minor” abuse consisted of, the cheating, the silent treatments etc, until I got here and read Red Flag and Black Flag. Those were eye openers. Conditioned to the point that anything not physical, and even then rape was okay, was healthy behavior, we are left wide open to whatever they might bring. Thankfully we can learn what abuse is, we can learn to watch for it and walk away. We do not have to live defined by our conditioning.
AV, the conditioning and gaslighting was so strong for me as well. I didn’t realize my father physically abused me either. I figured since he was from a different country, this is how they disciplined. What’s ironic, as a child I didn’t give that same latitude to my mother. I knew she was neglectful and I knew that was wrong.
Until I came to narcsite, I didn’t realize that I was still suffering from abuse and still being conditioned. It’s been eye opening for me.
Hi Leigh,
That is interesting, that you didn’t give your mother the same latitude. It is all such a mess, my mom badmouthing our dad to us while being abusive herself, him not badmouthing but certainly not being the father one should be, how it computes in each brain on a unique and individual basis and produces each of us. I think anyone who has been raised in an abusive situation needs at the least understanding and hopefully even guidance in a way in which their eyes are opened to reality. Yes, narcsite has been highly beneficial to those of us fortunate enough to see ourselves, our situations, in the articles, comments and videos.
Hi Rebecca,
I had heard an interview with Mr. Tudor and he spoke about how the Queen and SM had “learned” intuitively how to behave in order to not threaten a narcissist’s control. It blew me away when I heard it. I couldn’t believe it. Its when it dawned on me that I do the same thing. I have intuitively learned how to not threaten control. Becoming aware of this has been pivotal moment for me.
Here’s the link to my original conversation with Mr. Tudor. I hope it helps you as much as its helped me. I think you should listen to the interview too. Hearing it directly from Mr. Tudor, really confirmed it for me.
https://narcsite.com/2021/10/19/the-narcissists-wheel-of-misery-5/#comment-435612
@Leigh,
I’ve felt and thought the same thing about my husband, wanting him to just leave or die and I automatically feel guilt and shame for thinking it and felt worse for feeling happy about it, before the guilt kicked in….I’ve been there too. It makes me think I have a dark part in me, to wish death on someone….I look in the mirror and try to see some darkness there and I just see my own pain and guilt. It’s somehow fitting that my eyes are blue.
I know HG tells me positive things about myself, that he sees, during consultation. I’m amazed by the good he sees in me. Xx
Rebecca,
This is terrible but I don’t feel guilt for wanting him gone. I think you know I had an 18 month affair. I don’t feel guilt about that either. The reason I feel like there’s a dark part of me or that I’m inherently bad is because I don’t feel any guilt or regret about those things. But those feelings are the feelings that raise our ET and con us into staying ensnared. That’s why when those thoughts pop up, you have to knock them out of your head.
@ Leigh and @ NarcAngel,
Leigh, I read your earlier conversation with HG and that explains the long term relationship I have with MLSOMATIC (husband) and the eight year relationship I had with my ex, who was diagnosed Borderline PD. I believe I’ve been conditioned from birth, it seems like, due to my narc mother. It explains how I was able to avoid a lot of punishment. I noticed the other week, during consultation with HG, how I reacted to his change of pitch and tone first and then what he was saying last….I automatically adjusted myself and that was the first time I was aware I was doing it, while I was doing…I’ve been doing it since I was a child. My mother would get angry and my options were avoid her, or show her one of my drawings…she liked my drawings, they cheered her up, most of the time. She was very proud of my artistic abilities. She would brag to people at church and family…talked about how talented I was etc…I thought it was the only time she loved me, when she was proud of me. I wanted her to be proud of me, approve of me, be happy with me, it was the only way I felt loved by her and I so desperately wanted her to love me. It makes me tear up thinking about it. All that effort, pain and defeat, just to try it again and again….she would have never loved me, she couldn’t love me, that’s not me. That’s her inability to love, not my burden, not my fault and it’s not because I’m not lovable. I only partially believe that, I still think I could have tried harder, because I don’t know when to quit. That’s my conditioning there, try and try and keep trying….appease, appease, appease…it’s the only way I’ve learned to get approval. It does all make sense and why MLSOMATIC wants to hold on to me so tightly. He even likes it when I snap back at him, he enjoys the bickering I shove back at him. He enjoys my fireworks when I explode on him. He’s still being super nice, he’s coming home from work early , just around 2pm. I think he thinks he’ll catch me trying to leave, at least that’s what I’m thinking. I haven’t said anything to him. I just think he’s paranoid because he knows I’m not happy. He’s currently building me a bookcase. Is this a respite period or is he trying to appease me?? He’s manipulating me by being nice, so he thinks he can keep me with a bookcase?? Xx
@NarcAngel,
I hope the above comment answered your question about why we sometimes accept abuse, if not, I’ll tell you. We accept some abuse because we’re used to it, partially it hardly bothers us because it’s normal to us. We used to get worse abuse and this mild abuse is almost barely noticed. It’s mild to me because I’m used to physical abuse. My parents were physically abusive, though my dad was manipulated into it and my first husband was physically abusive, so the emotional and mental abuse I get from current husband isn’t that bad to me, in comparison to physical abuse I used to deal with before. Why do we take it? Because we don’t know any different and we don’t think anywhere is any better. We’ll get abused wherever we go…at least it seems that way to me. Are they nice, or is it nice for right now? Will it be worse, or will I just get used to another type of abuse? It’s what I think about, when I think of moving.i have a friend, who lives in State of New York. She’s nice,used to work with her, she’s older and very mentally strong and stable. She has a boyfriend she lives with. I don’t know him, only met him once and he seemed ok….but, I don’t trust strange men and the idea of living with him, with my friend, worries me, scares me and gives me bad nerves. I thought about sleeping with a tazer, but who wants to live like that. Besides, I’d probably zap myself in bed. 😂 This is why I have a consultation with HG. Xx
And I just wanted to add, that all my friends are married ,or with a man they live with, so it’s all the same situation, except for my best friend…but, MLSOMATIC would look for me at her place definitely 100%.
Rebecca,
I’m so excited that you noticed that you adjusted your reaction to Mr. Tudor’s change in his tone. We’ve been conditioned to intuitively adapt so not to threaten their control. For me, knowing that is a HUGE part of the battle. If you’re aware of when you’re intuitively adapting your behavior to appease the narcissist, you can stop adapting your behaviors. Getting out is very important but, its only one half of the battle. We also have to stop adjusting our behaviors to appease the narcissist. Another part of the conditioning is to not recognize it as abuse or manipulation. Your question about will I just get used to another type of abuse is the very reason why its so important to understand that we’ve been conditioned in the first place. If we’re aware of when we adapt our behavior or excuse their behaviors, then we can stop ourselves from becoming ensnared again.
What in the actual…..I’ve tried to respond twice and it’s disappeared before hitting send. I’ll wait to see if either of those post.
Rebecca
You responded as though I had asked a question or needed an explanation, but that was not the case.
You asked:
“Why do I accept their bad behavior as something I deserve so much that I dismiss it??”
I provided a possible explanation to YOUR question, (which you appear to have confirmed in your explanation).
My sister continues to be ensnared by narcissists (recently married to one) because she fails to see their manipulations (as compared to Dad) as control or abuse. Dad was physical. THAT was abuse to her, and her husband doesn’t do that (at least yet). She NEEDS confirmation that she is (and always was) worthy of love, so she accepts anything less as the “normal ups and downs in a relationship”. As love. She will only acknowledge that she has “chosen wrong” previously, but refuses to acknowledge why that might be, and that she can do something about it. She just knows it’s different this time.
It’s not, but she will be damned if she will expose herself as being unlovable yet again. She will stay and prove to everyone that she is. There is the danger.
NA,
Sorry to hear that your sister remains ensnared. I expect that it must be difficult to witness, given the knowledge that you have.
“…she will be damned if she will expose herself as being unlovable yet again. She will stay and prove to everyone that she is. There is the danger.”
Sounds like your sister would score high on pride, were she to take the Trait Detector – possibly love devotee, as well.
@NarcAngel,
The same thing happened to me today too and the other day, I had to retype my comments twice. Glitches are annoying. Hope your comments come through, I think mine went the way of the dodo bird. 😂 Poof xx
WhoCares
No doubt those two traits would be high. It’s interesting how siblings growing up in the same family dynamic can be so different in their trait composition and be affected so differently moving forward. Sometimes talking to them, I wonder if Empaths don’t also have a total defence mechanism.
Possibly, NarcAngel.
In my experience there can certainly be a lot of denial happening in conjunction with emotional thinking, addiction etc.,, but in the case of an empath, the denial is conscious form of self-protection…which has limitations to it’s power to protect – like a band-aid solutions in the worse case scenarios.
WC,
Thank you for your thoughts on denial being the defence mechanism of the empath. I would add cognitive dissonance, which includes denial. It was my brains way of making sense out of nonsense and was, is still often, unconsciously done.
Disordered is an interesting term, I suppose in a way it fits. I have long thought of us as sick/unhealthy, when living in our high ET mode and without knowledge. Coming closer to wellness/health, when we gain knowledge and lower our ET.
Empaths have empathy all of the time, same as normals and even narcissistic people, but we can learn to use logic, logical thinking, by learning to go to the evidence and other things. And that doing so becomes easier as we lower our ET.
Disorder, from my understanding, is applied when there is little to no possibility of change. So it is fitting for NPD, ASPD etc. It also seems to indicate some form of aberrant abusive potential, which empaths do not have.
There is a symbiotic aspect to the narc empath relationship, that is certain. There is an addiction to the narc also, they feed our addiction. I think addiction is different than disordered, though I see how the two both cause issues and control things when allowed to. This may be the key, we do not have to live in our addiction, narcs do have to live in their disorder, as of this time there is no cure for them. This being another difference between us. If we stay away from narcs, our ET does come down, this is known. We become healthier.
We have and use empathy all the time, ET fluctuates along with our interaction or lack of interaction with narcissists. This is why we are taught to GOSO and use NC.
NarcAngel,
I am still catching up on what went down and struggling to follow the relevant threads here…
But, know that I am in the “don’t change for anyone” camp – then again, I feel that about most people.
I still remember when someone said, on the blog, something to the effect of Bubbles being too sweet and warm (sorry to use you as an example, Bubbles) and I was like – seriously?
Also,
“The reference to empaths having a total defence mechanism was a bit tongue in cheek (mostly with regard to my sister’s situation), but it also got me wondering.”
In my initial reading, I actually did wonder if you were being tongue-in-cheek…but then I doubted myself and chose to respond in a more serious fashion.
NarcAngel,
Sorry, your previous comment had questions in it, “Why is it accepted?” You wrote and then you asked another question and I can’t see it now….and I don’t want to risk my comment disappearing again…sorry for the confusion. Xx
@Leigh
I’m glad I noticed my adapting to HG’s tone of voice and vibe changing…I just automatically adjusted myself and I was shocked. 😂 Believe me MLSOMATIC is being very nice and friendly to me, we had a verbal argument the other day and he got angry and it put me on edge and made me walk on eggshells….but, then he goes back to being calm and he tells me, it’s him, not me. His family is going through an adjustment period and they’re feeling growing pains, and he’s stressing about it, he says….Do narcs worry about their family? Doesn’t seem to be a real concern, so he must be saying it to make me feel sorry for him.
HG and Leigh,
I’m meeting with the woman co worker I’m going to be moving in with, on Friday. I’m going to her house and checking out the place, get a feel of things. Hopefully all goes well. Xx
Rebecca,
MLSomatic was blameshifting. It was also a pity play. He’s not the problem, his family’s adjustment period is the problem. He also wants you to feel bad for him that he has to deal with it.
That’s awesome news. I’m so glad you found somewhere to go. Fingers and toes crossed that it goes well!
I saw your comment above about your Geyser. I love my Geyser. My carrier is about carrying someone else. My savior is about saving someone else. Even though when the Geyser erupts, it may benefit a narc, its still about me. Its how I feel emotions and how I release them. I laugh loud, I cry loud and I yell loud. Its definitely my favorite!
Rebecca
Let me clear this up for you.
You asked: Why do I accept their bad behaviour?
I responded: Why is it accepted? (as in….in answer to your question…….).
Then I proceeded to provide a possible answer to your question. I added a question mark at the end as in: might this be applicable to your case? (or anyone else’s?).
I had no questions and needed no explanation. I was attempting to assist with your question about why you (or anyone) accepts those behaviours, but I see that I only caused you confusion. I won’t contribute anymore to the conversation to avoid that continuing (confusion).
NA,
Since its a public blog, I decided to comment on this. Do you not realize that some of your comments come off as passive aggressive or condescending? “Let me clear it up for you” is incredibly condescending and you come off as beyond reproach.
One of my principles in life, has been that its ok if you can’t help, but please don’t hurt. Maybe you don’t realize it, but you aren’t always helpful and sometimes you’re even hurtful.
NA,
I think in many ways ET is that defence mechanism. I can honestly say that me with high ET is unrecognisable from me with low ET.
I’ve seen similar with my friend. When he was ensnared he was very very different to how he is now post escape and his ET still has further to fall.
I think when ET is low, we almost come across as ‘not as nice/ not as warm.’ Our core is still the same, the traits, drivers etc, but we present very differently.
WhoCares and TS
The reference to empaths having a total defence mechanism was a bit tongue in cheek (mostly with regard to my sister’s situation), but it also got me wondering.
We (I am including myself) accept for narcissists, that their narcissism is a total defence system and that they cannot change. Unconscious. Unlimited in it’s power to protect.
We discuss empaths as having ET, addiction, denial as a conscious form of self protection, and limited. That we can change.
Might we have a bias or vested interest in differentiating between the two? I mean isn’t it easy to accept being told that none of it is our fault, that we were powerless to the manipulations of the narcissist? The categories or descriptions of the empath are not especially derogatory (Carrier, Geyser, Magnet, Saviour etc) whereas the Narcs are Lesser, Mid (who ever wants to be mid range at anything? haha) and Greater. Greater referring to level of manipulation and not in a positive sense.
There was a previous exercise here (can’t remember the name) where people were assigned (through individual request) titles such as Knight, etc, that were positive in a kick ass kind of way and I remember thinking: well who wouldn’t want to be known as such. It’s empowering and understandably easy to embrace.
Understandably, positivity is used in this forum in relation to empaths (but we are also not painted as angels as someone previously suggested), and we are not listed in the DSM. But we are also not “normal”.
So…might it be that we have a form of defence mechanism? One that allows us to believe that we were less participant than we would like to think? One not yet recognized by professionals, because how do you attach a “disorder” to such a positive, forgiving, and loving group of individuals when that is supposedly what we are told as a society we should strive to be. Especially when it is often to our own detriment.
@Leigh,
Yeah, MLSOMATIC was trying ro get me to feel bad for him. His family is toxic though, I think they’re narcs. HG confirmed his daughter is a narc. The behaviors of his stepdad and brothers isn’t looking too good for them either.
I’m looking forward ro getting with my woman coworker this evening. I’ll keep you posted.
Which part of your empath results do you relate to most?? How do you see yourself?? My Geyser is the one I most relate roo in the cadre, with Savior running in second. With the schools it’s Codependent I mostly relate to and second is Contagion. I mostly see myself as Geyser because my emotions are so strong to me. Savior is my biggest cadre, being 50% and I do automatically go in and save the pup or the child without thoughts of my own safety….I’m 55 % Standard, so I’m an emotional empath who feels empathy for mostly everyone and I have strong urges to rescue people and animals. Xx
Hi Rebecca,
I’m a perfect triple hybrid. Just to clarify, Mr. Tudor used the work perfect, not me. He used it because I’m equal parts, 33% each of Savior, Carrier, Geyser. I actually relate to all 3 of those equally. I save, carry, erupt. Rinse and repeat, lol.
As for my schools, I’m standard, super and Contagion. I guess I operate in Standard most of the time but I don’t feel like I have a lot of patience for people. I know patience doesn’t equate to empathy but I feel like if I had more empathy, I’d be more patient. 🤷♀️
My Contagion operates differently. I don’t normally feel others emotions. It has happened but not as often as others on the blog. My Contagion manifests as a guardian angel on my shoulder or my spidey sense. My spidey sense, inner voice, gut ot whatever you want to call it, guides me in my daily life. More than anything else, I trust my gut. The only tines that shit has gone sideways for me is when I haven’t listened to my gut.
I hope it went well with checking out the new place. What did you think?
@NarcAngel and Leigh,
Thank you Leigh for your comment on my behalf, I appreciate your kinship, kindness and friendship. Xx
@NarcAngel,
I appreciate your insight and advice, but as I wrote to you earlier on my April 12th response to you, regarding your previous comments.that came out as questions, though you didn’t mean them as questions….it was an honest misunderstanding on my part, when I see a ?, I regard it as a question. You didn’t mean it as a question. Ok, I get that. I understand that, but my confusion is understandable and not an indication of a lack of intelligence on my part. I agree with Leigh on your, “let me clear this up for you” comment was condescending and I hope we can move on from this. My error was assuming your ? was a question needing an answer and I answered you with, what I thought was my own personal deduction of my own personal experiences. Again, sorry for my own confusion.
@Leigh, thank you again for your defense on my part. Xx
Hi Rebecca, you’re very welcome. To me, NA wasn’t clear in her original comment. She asked a question so you assume she wanted an answer. She didn’t say it was a rhetorical question. Then when you answer, she got snippy with you. To me, that’s passive aggressive. You’re to nice to be treated that way. I couldn’t help myself, my Savior was triggered and I had to jump in.
Stating a question is rhetorical rather defeats the purpose.
Mr. Tudor,
I need clarity please. Stating a question is rhetorical defeats what purpose? The purpose of being passive aggressive? When I ask a question that doesn’t require a response, I’ll state that it’s just food for thought. NA’s questions were not clear that they were meant to be food for thought. When Rebecca responded to the questions, NA got condescending and said, “Let me clear this up for you.” As if Rebecca is inept.
I stand by my original statement. Not stating the question is rhetorical is passive aggressive.
A rhetorical question is clearly so. Having to state it is rhetorical defeats it’s purpose.
NA,
I think any time you have a distribution involving people you will end up with a majority group ( fitness level, height, intelligence etc) and extremes above and below that form smaller groups. Extremes are extremes and it is how they are interpreted that is either positive or negative. So in the case of intelligence, extreme intelligence is often perceived as desirable. Ask the gifted child how they feel about that and the reality might be very different. Low intelligence ‘undesirable’ again the individual view might be very different.
Personality in many ways I think is similar. So the normals could be described as ‘ordered’ with an ideal balance of selfishness and selflessness. Either side you have the empath reaching far into selflessness and the narcissist far into selfishness. ( just a single trait example for illustration) With personality, unlike height or intelligence there is the concept of being disordered. When drivers are unbalanced one way or the other. So logically, in my mind, empaths and narcissists are both disordered, it’s just that empaths are viewed positively as they don’t damage others. Narcissists negatively because they do.
If empaths are indeed disordered, then it is the disorder that runs the show. You can’t easily separate the disorder from the host, but if conscious of the disorder you can perhaps better manage how the disorder presents. The very fact that we can complete an EDC and be categorised, tells me that my disorder has common symptoms / behaviours. They are not specific just to me. I will have behavioural preference within a set suite of options. Similar with narcissists.
The attraction between narc and empath is real. For the empath, the narcissist facilitates the empath being the empath to the fullest extent. Or, the narcissist allows the disorder to manifest to its fullest extent? The NPD disorder therefore compliments and partners with the Empathic disorder?
I agree. We aren’t normal.
In terms of self defence mechanisms I do think ET is the defence mechanism for the empath. ET is a broad term that encompasses many aspects, more than we often reference ourselves. The empath has ET all of the time. If it wasn’t a self defence mechanism I would think ET would not be present all of the time. It would be present with the narcissist and disappear without him.
So for me, there are indicators that suggest we are actually disordered. Being at any extreme of any scale is never a good thing. For example what if an empath scored 99.9% for empathic traits on the TDC? How would she function in the world?
I wouldn’t change my empathic nature. Is that empowerment or is it that I’m wedded to my disorder in the same way a Greater is wedded to his?
Interesting question NA.
Xx
@HG and Leigh,
We had to reschedule due to her job arrangements having her coming home really late from the inner city. We exchanged numbers the other day, so she said she’ll contact me soon. If i don’t hear from her this weekend, I’ll see her on Monday. Xx
@Leigh,
I was shocked I came back 27% Codependent. I didn’t expect that and after I read, CHAINED, I realized I related to it with a lot of my behaviors, my conditioning behaviors are very Codependent around narcs. I’m living with one, as you know and so my Codependent behaviors gets triggered. My ET is high, been that way my whole life, narc mother…narc ex and current narc husband…I guess it means I haven’t ever experienced much LT, explains why I see myself as so emotional and such a HSP. I get told a lot that I’m too kind and too sensitive. I allow people too much freedom with how they speak to me, when I’m actually just dismissing their bad behavior at times. Usually when my frustration is high, or when my anger is triggered from stress, I snap with a bit of my mouth, rarely do I hit people. For me to hit people, it would be in self defense of myself or another…I can see that I see myself meaner than I am, but that darkened view of myself comes from being made to feel bad about myself for having or expressing negative emotions. I equated bad emotions as meaning I was a bad person. It’s not true, I need to stop thinking that way. Bad emotions doesn’t mean I’m a bad person. You’d think I’d know that, but it’s part of my conditioning..conditioning I recently accepted as truth. I was abused, it did happen to me and my mother isn’t here to cover it up, lie about it, make excuses and smooth it over with words of “I love you, that’s why I disciplined you” No, people who love you, don’t abuse you….as HG has said. Truer words have not been spoken. Xx
Rebecca, I’m sorry to hear you didn’t get to meet up with the woman from your job.
My ET has always been high too. I know we can’t truly lower our ET until we’re free but there are small things you can do that will help. When you think you’re mean, stop yourself and ask if that’s your mom talking. We all have bad behaviours. You just witnessed some of mine today.
We’re all in different stages in our journey to freedom. We’re getting there Rebecca, one day at a time.
TS
Yes, you captured my train of thinking almost exactly. I appreciate your open and careful consideration of the subject and the sharing your thoughts as well.
I also see ET as m.in. defense mechanism (excellent!). There comes a point in life, where you test different mechanisms (perceived as bad and good) – and choose the best one for you.
Two years ago, I was worried about my daughter. I felt and see she was at a crossroads. Now, at the age of 17, I can say with all confidence that she has already chosen and is following her path. Similar into her mother 🙂 I’m happy 🙂 She will experience so many wonderful things, that many don’t even dream of (including sad and painful ones – because there is beauty in them too!). Smart girl 🙂
TS, disorder? Of course! I love this storm! 🙂 Only a contradictory thought pushes this world forward. Only contradictory thought creates and produces. Contradictory thought is the engine of life and development.
Qualifying it as a kind of “disease” is sacrilege 🙂 A disorder is when you can’t find yourself within the overall picture of life.
Normals basically just consume life. But… they give the world a schematic. Like a filter to stop excess. Brake.
Sometimes it happens to us to sail in one direction, then you should look around and slow down 🙂
Back to a state of contradiction… and disorder. Make a revision. And keep going.
Girls, approaching this dialogue from a distance (to others and to themselves) – how wonderful yours cadres look and shine through here.
Leigh, your attitude touched me. Yes, Rebecca is a super nice and kind person 🙂
—–
I wrote it here before, right at the beginning, when I appeared almost two years ago (how long I stay here…). Logic should go hand in hand with emotion. Braided tightly like a braid.
Logic always at the bottom. Emotions on top.
After all, it’s not our aspiration to become a Narcissist?
This is my way of life. And I certainly won’t change it.
Joa,
I love the way you word things. “Normals consume life.” I’m quite scathing towards normals too. I’d far prefer to be an empath than a normal.
I think we have a broader range of reference, our emotions and senses are sharper, we notice things that most miss. We look up at the sky.
With every upside there tends to be a downside. If being an empath is technically a disorder, I’m comfortable with that. I will never be cured, can’t take the empath out of me. Fortunately, I’ll always experience the world this way and unfortunately I’ll always have a degree of ET and an addiction to manage. With awareness, I don’t have to be a slave to that though. Take the good bits, minimise the bad. Better that than mundane numb normality. 😊
Xx
bbc.co.uk
“Rhetorical questions are questions that do not expect an answer. A rhetorical question is a question asked to make a point, rather than get an answer. If you have ever been late, someone might say: ‘What time do you call this? ‘ This person doesn’t want an answer to the question.”
Note that the person does not say: “This is a rhetorical question, but what time do you call this”.
I wanted to put: Let me clear this up for you for levity, but decided it would likely not be embraced presently as such by those who do not share my admittedly warped sense of humour.
HG
If you feel that this comment will serve no purpose in clarification but only up the Aggro meter, then please, by all means, dispatch it to the depths of hell where I will see it later and reflect on my inability to NOT see humour in it.
NA,
I know that rhetorical questions are questions that do not expect an answer. The issue is that if people don’t know you, how do they know your question is rhetorical? Its not always clear. In your example, of course that’s clear. I’ve said those words to my children many times. But you put questions out there and then when someone answers, you tell them you didn’t want an answer. I’ve been here for 4 years. I know you like to ask rhetorical questions to get people to think. Not everyone else knows that though. Then to come back to Rebecca and speak to her like she’s obtuse for not understanding this about you is unfair.
@Leigh,
Thank you, but we’re making arrangements to meet up and see her place. I have confidence it will happen.
I’m determined to see this through, one day at a time! Xx We all have flaws, we all make mistakes and we all learn is the best part! Xx Thanks Leigh xx
@Joa and Leigh,
I hope I can have my LT and ET work together like a braid some day, Joa.It sounds like a nice way to be, as my emotions are so strong and such a part of the core of me….I can’t imagine them not being on top. I think you’re right, emotions should be on top and a part of your logical thinking process, that way you don’t lose sight of the fact you’re dealing with a person, with their own feelings and needs, and not an object that doesn’t need any considerations. A very humane way to live and see the world. I like your thinking Joa! Thanks for the compliments and I have to say, I agree with you…what Leigh did was very inspiring and warmed my heart. Thank you both Xx
You’re very welcome Rebecca.
I agree. I like Joa’s thinking very much as well. Having your ET & LT working together is a very humane way of living and dealing with others.
Yes, we all have flaws. I have a TON of them, lol! But learning from them is key. I’m still a work in progress, lol.
I hope it goes well with your coworker. I’m keeping my fingers crossed for you.
@Leigh,
I am hoping also for things to work out with my coworker. Thanks for the support! Xx
NA, that’s really sad to read your sister feels she needs to prove she is loveable. I guess we all want to be loved but since finding HG, I no longer feel that need in the slightest. Being able to explain away my behaviours and that of others I fully understand what may irritate others about me, sometimes I’m prepared to adapt to ‘fit in’ other times I’m just not and don’t care. Like many things now, I just pretend everyone does hahah seriously though its sad. I could not bring myself to stay with someone in the hopes they love me. If I’m having fun, I accept the fun, as soon as its not fun any more then I’m off.
Dearest Who Cares,
No need to apologise lovely one
I’m very comfortable in my ageing wrinkly skin haha
Contentment is my calm. However, having said that, I do have a self defence bridge I willing to protect if need be. Hehe
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Bubbles – “Contentment is my calm. However, having said that, I do have a self defence bridge I willing to protect if need be.”
Good to hear!
Rebecca
It’s quite natural for you to be experiencing those things. I am just saying that where there is fear (and we have all experienced it), it can help to try to reframe it from fear of the unknown (as a negative), to fear as in excitement of what is yet to come (as a positive) when you are no longer in the position you are now. I have strong emotions as well that are not always logical. That can come for everyone with enough time, practice, and observation. It is usually the case for one to see more easily looking in, at situations where you are not directly involved (especially if you have experienced it and come out the other side). That is one of the reason s HG’s work and advice is so effective. He can give it to you straight and we accept the sometimes harsh truths because we know not to expect the emotion from him that seems expected of other empaths. Logic or uncomfortable observations from another empath seem to be viewed almost as some kind of betrayal instead of merely a different consideration. ET at it’s finest.
I have no stake in what you (or anyone else) decides to do. This is a public blog and people make comments, suggestions, and give opinions. I imagine it would be weird to pour out your heart in a comment only to receive crickets by way of no response (because it’s “your business”), and it certainly seems suspect at best and dishonest at worst, to have everyone in agreement. No one is under any pressure to agree with, or accept any of what is offered, and you owe no one any explanations or follow ups. That is entirely up to you. I wish you the very best outcome whatever you decide.
Rebecca,
Regarding your second paragraph – that’s good to know. I hope they can help you with the stress of leaving.
But I should just say – the stress at the thought of the unknown outcome of leaving is understandably causing your fear and hesitation – because it is UNKNOWN. Yes, there will likely be bumps in the road – but the peace and clarity of mind etc., that you will find without the narcissist in your life is worth risking the unknown for.
The stress that you deal with on a daily basis with the narcissist in your life is a known factor and it is also a KNOWN fact that the trajectory of the stress from that situation only has one direction – and it’s a downward spiral.
WhoCares,
I was a Navy kid and so I know a lot of other ex Navy kids, I have old friends in several States and none of them MLSOMATIC knows. I just have to choose where to live, I might even travel from friend to friend, if I need to, as long as I keep my job. I’ve gotta be able to help out, don’t want to mooch on anyone. I’m not my brother. The future is wide open, sound like that Tom Petty song…’Wide Open’…I’ll be singing, ‘Don’t come around here no more’ soon enough 😂 One thing at a time…so the mountain isn’t so huge..xx
Rebecca,
It’s so good to read that you have options.
“One thing at a time…so the mountain isn’t so huge..xx”
Agreed!
I just get excited for those who are so close to freedom – I don’t wish them the struggles that they might encounter, but I can’t wait for them to experience the peace of mind and the freedom from fog that only comes with time and physical distance away from the narcissist.
Cheering you on, Rebecca! 💗
WhoCares,
Thanks, I’m trying to not get overwhelmed, so one thing st a time. I like to rush and do too much at times, trying so hard not to be careless and jump too soon. I get so impatient and want things now. Breathe, breathe….Rome wasn’t built in a day….at this point, my husband and I are like roommates, it still doesn’t stop him from trying to get some, but no, not interested. I told him the other day, find a girlfriend. He looked a bit disappointed and i saw a hint of anger.
Rebecca,
Sorry, only just seen this! I just want to say that’s great that you have reached out at work and asked for help; that can’t have been at all easy, so well done for taking the first step xx
Hi JB,
No worries and thank you! I appreciate your support and encouragement. Xx I’m hoping to get everything in motion, without stressing myself out so much, a little help, goes a long way! Xx
Rebecca,
You’re welcome, any time xx
NA, I found your pondering on Empath traits regarding positivity vs the negative connotations of the narcissist descriptions very thought provoking. In reference to your questions: “ So…might it be that we have a form of defence mechanism? One that allows us to believe that we were less participant than we would like to think? One not yet recognized by professionals, because how do you attach a “disorder” to such a positive, forgiving, and loving group of individuals.” I have been recently “diagnosed” or rather typified by my doctor as a HSP/SP (highly sensitive person or sensitive-processing, for obvious reasons I like the latter acronym better). It is a neurological condition though it is not a disorder. While many of the traits of this condition can be really annoying to the person and to others (I get overwhelmed by multiple external stimuli, or feel really distressed in a negative environment) it also carries with it empathy and intense sensory perception (synesthesia in my case though not necessarily) in addition to deep thinking, lucid dreaming and other positive traits. Or traits that have been regarded as positive, like you well explained. I suspected for a while HSP are empaths. So to answer your question, it has started to be recognized by professionals. Unfortunately, while high sensitivity is valued in other cultures, it tends to be mocked and dismissed in Anglo-centered and most European cultures. I, and very probably most of the commenters here too, have been told many times that I am “too emotional / too sensitive.” Especially in my workplace, which is an academia pond full of nasty narcs, who already describe my enthusiasm as “too passionate.” I hate the lack of sensitivity of the world 90% of the time. That’s another HSP/SP.
SP
Interesting that it has started to be recognized by professionals. I wonder what has prompted them to finally delve into this area. Also interesting to me, the assignment of the label (neurological condition vs disorder for example) and the effect of that assignment on the patient given any positive or negative association. I know they are defined individually and to a standard used by professionals, but they are ultimately assigned to the patient by doctors using their own differing observations and interpretations. I know people who have been diagnosed with one thing only to be told by another doctor that it is another condition or disorder altogether. It’s no wonder people are confused.
Exactly. I could be diagnosed with Asperger’s or Autism. It’s usually a process of exclusion: let’s look for potential negatives and when we rule them out we give you the good news. Such is Western science! I adopt the same attitude I do with horoscope predictions: if they tell me something good, that’s the one. I don’t particularly think having higher sensitivity is positive. In my case, it is more disabling than positive at the end of the day.
I agree, disabling. I just want to live, not worry about everything or be affected by everything, it sucks. And knowing that my ex saw it and saw the potential, what the shifting sands or a nice dose of gaslighting would do, knowing my parents made me that way, seriously?! I agree, it totally sucks.
@Sweetest Perfection
You are perfect the way you are
Autism is also in my family.
I wonder how or what happens to people with Autism if they get traumatised.
I know for a fact that people with Autism have hearts of Gold and are truthseekers. They do not lie. They lack empathy but they tell the truth. Good people. I have the highest respect for people on the spectrum.
Anna, thank you so much, I do not have any spectrum of Autism but if I did I would tell and would not mind to do so. Everyone is perfect as they are, even though the conditions are not perfect for all.
Anna, it touched my heart.
“You are perfect the way you are”.
I love when people “bloom”, when you show them that you accept them for who they are, with their flaws, bad moods, negative behavior and mistakes.
The same applies to me too – I “blossomed” many times, many times I was forgiven, tolerated and endowed me with sympathy.
This gives you great confidence.
Hi SP,
One of my daughters has commented on a few occasions in the last year that she believes I am a HSP also. She has recognized certain behaviors and responses I have to some things as over-reaction when seen next to “normal” reactions. She does not fault me for this, she actually often appreciates it and will come to me for insight as a result. Her being aware of it, and making me aware of it, has helped both of us grow in some different ways. I had wondered about it a couple years previously for myself, for a while, but had forgotten until she reminded me.
Being here, things had begun to make sense so I no longer was looking to “outside” therapies/labels etc. Because of some of the fantastic work by some bloggers here, I have used outside thinking in conjunction with what is here to broaden my thinking at times. At other times it has only brought me back to what is here already and I toss it out rather than muddle things.
I think sometimes the desire to use various labels can in itself be a way to try to understand what has happened, who we are etc, a defence mechanism in itself. I have been coming to believe that because I choose to dismiss looking at “new” ways to consider things, choosing instead to go by the things taught here consistently over the course of the blog, I am likely viewed by some as less than progressive. I don’t care about that.
I do care that empaths, even when we are not healthy and are allowing our addiction free reign and being symbiotic with the narc, are still the ones being victimized and that we do not benefit by being labeled with things that take hope from us. Hope that we can change, hope that we can improve our own lives, hope that we are not trapped in some kind of “disorder”. I will be called less that progressive perhaps but I know I can change, I have done it, I have heard from others who have done it, using principles taught here since before I arrived. Just as I will not allow myself the luxury of hope that any narc can change, I will also not give any label or remove any hope that any empath cannot change if they decide it is what they want to do. I will also not blame any empath for having been or currently being victimized. Because I had to find my way out, I will continue to believe that if they come to a place where they are ready, they can do so also. And I will stand by ready to help them in any way I can at that point.
Being a highly sensitive person is not a negative and we are in a position to change thinking on it, one person at a time if need be. Thank you for comment, I did use it as a place to vent a little bit it was only that, a place, not asked at you at all. I appreciated what you said a lot.
I am glad you did, AV, it was very comforting to read your comment. Thank you.
Thank you SP, I did not expect your response. I didn’t know what to expect really, except people (not you) possibly thinking I’m nuts. Especially since I spoke out of both sides of my mouth for a minute there.
On one hand, I hate the automatic, visceral response to certain stimuli, it doesn’t always feel good. On the other hand, I am very thankful for, as Rebecca said, the ability to see the richness in life in a way that I suspect many can’t.
So, pros and cons to being a HSP. I don’t think I would trade it?
HSP is wonderful
You are blessed with a higher level of perception and empathy.
I have great respect with those with HSP. My cousin has it, and she is one of the most loving amazing people I know.
It is just this world is cruel. It makes those who are blessed feel abnormal.
HSP is a wonderful and positive thing.
AV, don’t change, please! 🙂
The best way to protect your sensitivity is to learn to distance yourself from yourself. Nothing distances you so well, as knowing that everything is just moments, shards in the perspective of a lifetime. And in the perspective of the world, it’s already a supernanocrumb 🙂
—–
I use my sensitivity and Contagion School perfectly in my work. Even Narcissists “trust me” on this level and often reverse their decisions if I feel they have gone too far. Sometimes – despite their stubborn decision – I silently do the task my way – always with a good result. I like to put them in a raging dilemma – punish me for insubordination or reward me for result? Ha ha ha 🙂
Of course, they benefit from it. But… hundreds of other people are also using it.
Of course, they get back at me for their incompetence in this aspect. But… of course I have my “little, dark” pleasure in it too.
—–
Sensitivity is a beautiful flower, that needs to be gently nurtured, not destroyed.
Properly used sensitivity can be very powerful.
Don’t change. Use (you!) what you already have and what is right for you, AV.
—–
Someone wrote that west world underestimates sensitivity. I do not agree.
Just don’t be ashamed of your sensitivity. Why are you ashamed? Show. And don’t be afraid of getting hurt (supernanocrumb). And you will find, that it is highly appreciated.
From my perspective…
Hi Joa! It was me who said that. Western and Eurocentric epistemology for example is based on a “universal third person objectivity” that rejects personal experiences, affects, and emotions as being considered signs of weakness and subjective bias. I disagree but that’s the way the world is now. I am not ashamed of my sensitivity, I am pissed that other people always pick on my passion or my emotional responses. And sometimes they go and relate my emotions to my ethnicity, which makes it even worse! My doctor said I was like Velcro and he wanted me to become Teflon instead. The world is throwing absurd analogies instead of acknowledging what it needs is precisely more sensitive people!
Hi Joa,
No reason to be concerned, I can’t change who I am. When I speak of changing, it is the reactions, behaviors, thought processes that I speak of. With practice and over time, I have learned to be more logical in my thinking, to go to the evidence instead of worrying, limit time with people who don’t respect me, things like that. I will never not be able to be sensitive. And the two beauty of it is that since being here, I’ve given myself permission to be myself, and now I love to feel (most) things, consider what I’m feeling and really enjoy it. When I was a little girl, I was very sensitive, I remember that, it is so sweet to have that being allowed back out without feeling like I must hide it!
Keeping things in perspective, yes, very important. Thank you.
Thank you for your words of wisdom and encouragement, they mean a lot!
So, just hit me that CPTSD uses the word “disorder”, had not connected that with NPD previously. Not sure what to make of this. Going to look up the definition of “Disorder” as it relates to mental illness.
A disorder is a disturbance of normal functioning which then of course leads to a consideration of what is normal.
HG,
So LOCE or abuse, or both can cause the disorders of NPD and being an Empath? Being an empath is a disorder, makes sense because therapists I’ve been to treated my high emotions like they were symptoms of a mental dysfunction.. I was made to feel not normal, not healthy, which I’m not normal, I’m an empath. Being too sensitive is looked at as a dysfunction,, in the psychological field and in some work environments. I know reacting to situations at work in an emotional way is frowned upon, like you’re less than you could be and therefore less desirable for promotion.
Hi Rebecca, my other question is how are those Empaths made that don’t come from a LOCE. We’ve had them here on the blog, it happens. They still have the addiction. So how does it happen.
Which makes you question who is really normal and who dictates what is, as you have pointed out on many occasions. Thank you, HG.
Thank you HG. Please explain then why some disorders can be overcome and some cannot? This was my biggest pushback against it and now I am very confused.
Which disorders can be overcome?
HG,
Disorders cannot be overcome? Why am I here then…
Is this dependent on the definition of overcome?
I asked “which disorders can be overcome”?
Oh yes HG, you did ask that. Thank for asking again.
All disorders in which the individual can recognize there is a disorder and decided to take steps to adjust for it can be overcome.
I think this is correct.
Thank you for clarifying.
You’re welcome HG. I hope my answer was correct.
HG, thank you for that also, I have often wondered what is truly “normal”. Because we are all unique individuals, aren’t we all normal for ourselves? It is a lot bigger than that of course but yes, well worth considering.
@HG and AV,
AV, I don’t know how an empath is made, except by LOCE and abuse….Could it be they just learn empathy, they have an empathy gene?? HG, Which is it,or am I wrong in all my guesses?? Xx Good question AV! xx
Hello Rebecca,
Empathy is not present due to LOCE, quite the contrary.
The development of empathy is supported by neurological and biological factors and learned via behavior influences (primary caregivers and others). Babies are shown to display empathy as early as 6 months of age. Empathy grows in depth through age 6 if supported and modeled by caregivers or other sources. There are many studies you can read on this topic.
Where there is low or no empathy for others (it is noteworthy that Ns have fully functioning empathy of self), it also involves neurological, biological and behavioral influences. But the influences are not the same. For Ns, there are certain genes present that if ignited by way of LOCE (abuse and the like) express the trait of narcissism (or one might say more accurately, it is the combination of the expressed gene coupled with the necessity of a complete psychological defense). This would take place between the ages of 0-3 and progress on through age 12 and onward to adulthood.
There seems to be a lot of confusion as to why someone does or does not become an empath or narcissist. But consider this, everyone alive has narcissistic traits and empathetic traits (Ns and APD only self empathy). It becomes easier to understand from this perspective.
Your are born with specific genes and physiology. Some studies state personality is formed prior to birth. Genes influence traits. Environment and caregiver attunement influence genetic expression (epigenetics), as well as learned behavior and modeling. Personality influences perceptions and coping skills. As you grow, you are placed in many thousands or perhaps millions of micro moments that influence your experience, memory, perceptions, modeling, coping, etc. These experiences also create or cease to create your neural pathways that greatly affect thoughts and behaviors. It is a confluence of all of the above and more that bring us to be fully who we are.
@FYC,
Thank you for explaining how an empath becomes an empath. If I get it right from what you said, it’s a combination of genetics, learned behavior from those around you, and your experiences…so, D. All the Above. Interesting, so is it fair to say, if someone doesn’t have empathy for others , that it wasn’t taught to them by others, they don’t have the genetics for empathy and their experiences didn’t expose them to empathy early in life.?? Explains my husband and his upbringing with his emotionally not available mother and narc stepdad. I don’t think his parents had the empathy gene either. He didn’t have a chance of learning empathy from them, his environment wasn’t kind either. I’m feeling bad for his lack of decent parents. It explains things. Thank you FYC. Xx
Rebecca, Yes in part. A child needs modeling of empathy. But a child also seeks and requires attunement that would also include mirroring and approval. My guess is for children that develop a N defense, they have GPD and LOCE. The LOCE leads to the rejection of true self and the development of an impenetrable defense of the false self.
As for having N parents, it does not always result in N children. Once HG explained the basis of his defense (GPD + LOCE = NPD) I have looked into this deeply. I am an ACON and I am an empath (HG tested). But it took quite some time to really put all the pieces together. It is complex. I really encourage you to acquire as much of HG’s works as possible. You may not be ready to take it all in (I was not initially) but you will keep referring to his spot on accurate work as you learn more. I am so grateful for HG and KTN. I believe I have the entire collection now, but I have much more to learn. That said, what I have learned here has already helped immeasurably and lead me in directions I never would have imagined. (HG you have my eternal gratitude)
Mr. Tudor,
I noticed that during sone of Prince Harry’s interviews for his book, Spare, he said he preferred to use Post Traumatic Stress Injury instead of disorder. Do you have any thoughts as to why he preferred to use injury vs disorder?
Thank you
Destigmatising.
Hello AV,
Many conditions include the word disorder to indicate that the behaviour or perspective could cause problems. There’s Autism Spectrum Disorder, Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, etc. Many of us might have some traits that correspond to these descriptions but we either experience them
very mildly or have very few of them.
However if we have those behaviours or perspectives more broadly, more often or more strongly we are likely to run into difficulties in our lives (or be identified by others as having problems). The world is generally structured to suit individuals who don’t have these more extreme characteristics so occasionally there will be noticeable and sometimes consequential mismatches. We’d be more likely then to be diagnosed as having a particular disorder.
The word disorder in a formal diagnosis is a little superfluous as if a diagnosis is made it suggests a person is a fair way along on the spectrum. But it does underscore that additional
support could be needed at times which would enable that individual to manage a bit more smoothly and experience fewer mismatches with the world around them and its expectations.
Annaamel
I enjoyed reading your comment and agree. I see diagnosis as something to consider honestly for guidance. Not a sentence.
Thank you Annaamel, I agree. For some reason, before I looked into it more, the idea of a label of disorder placed on Empaths was extremely distasteful, I think because Narcs also have that label, specifically my mother has that label. I have known my entire life that I am not normal, I have not known what the problem was and finding narcsite, and with reassurances from HG that we, I, can change, I rejected that label out of hand yesterday. I have mild OCD, I am able to control it. The urge may be there, but the behavior doesn’t have to happen. I have learned this, just as I am learning that I don’t have to accept abuse, that I can spot red flags and avoid, that my mind was tricked and that I can choose to see through that etc.
I had a hard time accepting that I have an addiction to narcissists. That was also distasteful to me, a long time ago. A friend I was talking to about this yesterday pointed out that addiction is a disorder. Understanding all of this is steps towards realizing and accepting my responsibility for things that have happened to me. I was a victim as a child yet I am not going to allow that to make me a victim on an ongoing basis because of any label. I need to hold on to the knowledge and hope that I can change. That was the main gist of my thoughts about it I think. Thank you for your comment.
Hi Annaamel,
I just lost my whole comment again, glitches…so will try again…joy..joy…
Your comment reminded of what my former therapist told me. He said I’m a HSP/SP. I believe AV, AspEmp and I had this conversation of me being a HSP last year and my therapist confirmed it. He also said, I had a little OCD trait showing up as hyper focus on matters that I deem needed fixing or solving. I agreed I do tend to overthink and overfocus on matters that bug me, or need fixing. I was relieved to know I don’t have OCD, but I just have one trait of the disorder. He said, he could tell I had CPTSD and he said that leads me to have triggers that cause my emotions to flare up. I know having CPTSD and being HSP causes problems for me, in regards to handling stress and making tough decisions. I tend to get overwhelmed and emotionally stimulated, when frustrated or angry. I’ve learned to pull myself in, close my eyes and concentrate on breathing and calming my heart rate…think of trees and streams…something calming…it usually works to calm me down. Another thing that works, and I know most on here will agree, is listening to HG’s voice. I often fall sleep listening to HG. Xx
I can function with being a HSP and with CPTSD, I go to work 5 times a week, 40 hours a week and my job requires focus and attention to detail, problem solving skills at times, I just have to maintain balance within my mind, with my emotions and thoughts. It’s difficult at times and I wish I didn’t have CPTSD and sometimes the fact that I’m so sensitive is annoying to me. It makes things harder at times, but it also is a blessing. Music, sounds, beauty, nature, scents, color, touch all is so vivid and so alive to me, I wouldn’t give up that brightness for anything. It’s well worth the bad points. Xx
@AV,
I don’t think anyone is 100% without something wrong with them, even “normal” people have their hang ups….no one gets through life without scars, be they mental or physical…and isn’t a mental disorder really just mental scars ,usually left from abuse or LOCE?? Xx
@HG,
AV got me curious…how is it narcs can’t change, but us empaths can?? We both have a form of disorder…what makes one curable and the other stuck?? Xx
Thanks Rebecca, I think you are right.
Rebecca – very similarly – I sometimes have trouble concentrating and controlling my escaping thoughts.
And yet – despite this “defect” 🙂 – no one in my firm is as accurate in details and observant as me (sorry, there is one such person – my “N-friend”, now chief). I would like to add, that I am neither a chief accountant (I hate numbers and money!) nor a lawyer – and yet I check most of the documents of e.g. these departments and I find a lot of errors (the worst – also substantive ones!) and shortcomings. I do this in addition to my own duties – which I also perform almost flawlessly (I rarely make mistakes). I also have a good eye for points in space and the aesthetics of what I do. And my current position – combines 4 positions that used to be. Wow, I guess I need to start admiring myself… or scolding myself for being stupid (depends on what perspective).
The damn thing about being perfect. I keep threatening and shouting, that this was the last time I corrected something after someone else, that I will start not noticing other people’s mistakes and doing everything casually like them – and yet I can’t put my threat into practice because:
1. Errors annoy me.
2. I’m ashamed to let something like this come out of our company.
3. I am conceited (an ugly trait).
And so it goes round 🙂
But yes, I like my job. Although, sometimes I feel like a prisoner and I have a sense of losing my life – I could do so many interesting things if I didn’t have to fill the fridge…
@Joa,
I notice little things at work and outside of work, like details in photos, people’s voice patterns, errors in paperwork and some of my coworkers have noticed my little oddities. I get teased about my attention to little details, get called detective and OCD. Well, I’m no detective, but I do pay attention and tend to hyperfocus. Oh well, no one is perfect, especially me. I trip over flat concrete sometimes and then look to see what I tripped over. 😂
The way you described your emotional burst of energy, in an earlier comment, with your daughter is similar to how I am when I’m excited about something. I just get this burst, from the excited thought, that I can’t contain and it makes others laugh. My laugh is contagious, I can lift their moods, make them feel good, brighten their day, but I can also console someone, make them feel warm, drive away their sadness, give them hope…I’ve been told I do this for people, that I’m a light to them. I’ve been told that on the blog here, at work, in my personal life. I even remember LMRSOMATIC saying to me, I was a light in his life. Funny that MLSOMATIC said that too….anyway, it’s amazing to me that our projected emotions can make others feel good, contagious happiness we share with people, what a gift….no wonder narcs capture us so quickly, with such urgency. They lack happiness and were like a beacon of happiness….most of the time anyway 😂 xx Even our sadness is so rich in color…all those blues and greys…swirling together with the whites of tears. Xx
Sorry, I was painting pictures in my mind again. Xx
Back already, wow, there’s a disorder for just about everything humans do! Do be it, we have a disorder, but it still one that we can grow and change from, the narcissists cannot.
I’m kind of starting to think just going with toxic vs non toxic is the way to go. Or unhealthy vs healthy.
@ A Victor
We humans are gluttons for punishment! We even consume substances we know to be toxic “Just for fun” Look at alcohol consumption for example.
In a way those addicted to narcissists are like alcoholics. It is an addiction as HG has so often said. That cocktail looks so lush and enticing. We know it is bad for us but we want it so bad. Same goes when we are addicted to narcissists. Get out and stay out. No contact is the only way.
Hi Anna, thank you. Yes, I had a hard time with the word addiction when I arrived here also. Going to have to wrap my head around this now also I guess. It does not make me feel victorious in any way, it makes me feel broken and honestly, I hate it.
Hey HG,
#1: Will a lot of pure psychopaths fall into the Narcissistic (Not Narcissist) grouping?
#2: Can psychopathy coincide with every sub-school of Narcissist? For example, a Lower Greater Narcissistic Psychopath or a Middle Mid-Range Type A Team Anodyne Narcissistic Psychopath.
Thank you.
The pure psychopaths will not be described as narcissists (although of course they will have strong narcissistic traits) but they are not narcissists.
No.
Mr. Tudor,
I noticed your comment to Witch that sociopaths are more obvious, haphazard, hot headed ASPD. Would you say that a sociopath can coincide with a mid range or lesser narcissist?
Yes. As part of my work involving pure narcissists, narcissistic psychopaths/sociopaths and psychopaths/sociopaths I have created a detailed chart which shows the various permutations between these groupings.
That’s wonderful news. Thank you, Mr. Tudor.
Wow, sounds brill 🙂 I look forward to seeing this. OMG, I am so glad I came across KTN site because I can trust the accuracy.
HG,
I can’t wait to see your new work! Finally some clarity and accuracy we can count on! Xx
This is very exciting!!
Your work will be unparalleled then.
I cannot wait to see your new work HG. This is very exciting.
Hi HG,
Is there a break in your narcissism spectrum, Greater-Lesser, at which you will have psychopathy or sociopathy only or is there a point at which they could overlap? And are all psychopaths aware that they are different or is that only the Greaters?
Maybe I’m jumping the gun and it will be in the chart…so excited to see that!!
Await the work in this regard as it makes it clearer to understand.
Thank you HG.
HG: This puzzles me. A psychopath has no need for fuel so how does he coexist with a narcissist? Unless goals and fuel become one? Two sims same victim. But isn’t that two mindsets in the same body?
The narcissist receives fuel, the psychopath is entertained.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Just getting better and better.
This thread is the best on the blog.
HG,
Would a psychopath prefer an empath to a narcissist, or would it not matter to him/her??
Would an empath entertain more or less than the narcissist, or does it not matter?? Xx Thanks!
Either has certain advantages to a psychopath.
Wow
HG,
Ok, you got me curious now…What would be the advantages of a psychopath choosing an empath versus a narcissist?? Which has more advantages?? You got me curious, now you’ve done hit my “oh, gotta know this!” button😂 xx
More likely to stick around and be a plaything for the psychopath.
HG,
Ok, I can see sticking around the empath does, as a good advantage for a psychopath, but what of the advantages of choosing a narcissist for the psychopath??
Thanks for your responses, I appreciate the education. Xx
The fight is entertaining.
I like it when they fight.
Simply answered but do perfectly explained.
Hi Contagious, your observation is interesting. Fuel for power, entertainment for boredom, these are not mutually exclusive. It is interesting though because, in my mind and I’m likely incorrect, psychopaths don’t need power because they don’t fear, they always have power, not even in their minds but it’s intrinsic to them, no question about it. Narcs seem to do all kinds of things I might consider entertaining, if I was a narcissist, yet these may or may not fulfill the boredom needs of the psychopath. I feel like that boredom may be a bit different somehow, like a deeper itch that needs scratching, hence why sadism may come up at times. Is it the psychopathy or the narcissism that likes to see the IPPS scream? It will be interesting to learn more specifics regarding some of this.
I sometimes wonder if psychopathy is actually the natural human state.
Just a theory.
Through the love of our caregivers we learn to love
We learn right and wrong
We develop a strong ego with positive narcissistic traits.
Learn compassion.
If however we do not feel safe
If we are abused
Unloved
Unwanted
We learn to do one thing and one thing only
Survive
Only through laws and civilisation did we become what we are today. If you look back to the past, especially medieval times. It was common to watch the public execution. To jeer on the executioner. Every village adourned with a gibbot irons with the skeleton of the executed criminal inside. Heads on sticks. Sounds barbaric, but quite common in what they named ironically…”The Dark Ages”….
Some argue humans have become weak in their bubble of running hot water. Imagine a few hours with no internet, no running water, no heating… no supermarkets. You only have to watch a program such as “The walking dead” or “The last of us” to see what happens in end world situation when survival kicks in.
Worth pondering upon before we judge those so harshly.
Hi Anna,
I don’t see anyone judging anyone here.
That said, there are differences in the brains of psychopaths, it’s scientific that they are different.
A Victor,
Indeed. This forum has a high ratio of empathic people who are kind and do not judge.
As a newborn child your brain looks alot different than when you are a child or an adult. Indeed there are differences in the brain scans of psychopaths. This is the nature and nurture debate. Genetics can make you predisposed to certain things but only if the environment also plays a role.
Ah, were you referring to judgement in the world, not only here on the blog Anna? If so, yes, there is judgement, because there is a lack of understanding and also the traumatizing stories are the ones brought to the fore via news, social media, movies etc.
My understanding in the case of psychopaths is that the nurture is not going to change the nature, they are born that way. The ones with a predisposition are sociopaths, though I’ve heard those two terms used interchangeably also, so who knows.
Yes A Victor, I was referring to judgement in the world.
Hi Anna: From all that I have read. And I detailed a lot of scientific studies, psychopaths are born. End of. No hope. Maybe future brain surgeries? But that’s wild and these folk rise well. I read an article 1 of 3 are CEOs of major corporations so why change? I think a bad environment might heighten their already goal oriented predatory natures. Make it worse. The only thing that stops them is consequences. Jail. Prison. I would have to ask HG if sadism is a cadre. As it seems not all are bloodthirsty. Their goals differ. It must be a mindset. Think of Hitler or Pol Pot versus Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dalmatia. Some want power at any cost some have ummm a fetish of sadistic pleasure. It’s rare but why we know the names as so horrifying and destructive. If their goal was destruction, they did well. Why some call it evil, and not any scientific term. There are nurses who kill babies and celebrities who rape and abuse many. We know the stories. The shooter in Colorado who dressed as the joker carefully plotted the mass shooting in America. He was probably a schizophrenic like others who hear voices to kill. Everyday in the USA there are mass shootings ie Nashville. But the ousting from Congress of the two black representatives who protested is a mild indication that gun laws will ever change in this nation. Never. And I think it’s mostly men who do the mass shootings and my guess is most are psychopaths. I await to learn more from HG. And some like Gacy or Bundy appear normal, fit in. Thank goodness the class of serial killers is rare. But almost everyday there is a mass shouting in USA. Other countries have wars but our killings are regular. Why? There is easy access to guns but as the saying goes do guns kill people or is it people with guns? Why so many here? I imagine HG new series will cover a lot of terrain. Can’t wait
Hi Anna,
I’ve told HG, on more than one occasion, that I wish I was more like him and less like me. Meaning, I envy his logically thinking, being less emotional, his lack of fear, lack of self doubt and it all sums up to mean he can do tough task without any emotions like fear, emotional thinking and self doubt. I can imagine how much more efficient I’d be without all that holding me down….as it is, I have to do the task with all that extra crap, what a drag….Here we go, come on…let’s get it done, like dragging a corpse sometimes…I’m imagining…haven’t done that in real life.. 😂 xx
Dear Rebecca, you are perfect the way you are. Your emotion makes you beautiful. Stay the way you are. You are one of the lights in this dark world. Learn to love and accept yourself, you will be surprised the happiness and joy you will feel.
Your light will be extinguished if you do not get a grip on yourself and start the process of no contact. You know what you must do, you are just not doing it.
Wise words HG, and as always correct.
HG,
I need to do a consultation for NC, I have obligations and responsibilities…how do I walk away from them?? I feel bad paying a bill late, why I pay them early…not paying a bill would make me a nervous wreck…how do I do this?? I know I don’t want to stay, but how do I just walk away from my adult responsibilities?? I feel like I’m going into a tail spin of worry and anxiety.
Hello Rebecca, I know how hard this can be, but if you are certain you want out you have already accomplished a lot.
Have you ever quit a job? This will be similar in a few ways. When you decide to leave a job, you do not say anything, but you begin the process of preparing everything related to your departure.
To name a few, you will make copies of your personal documents and have them stored away from home. You will establish banking and credit in your own name in a different institution (save money in advance if you can). Find a place to live or someone you can stay with until you find a place of your own. If you feel your N may be destructive to things you cherish, remove them stealthfully before you plan to leave. If you have a pet, consider who is the primary care giver (I would guess you). Children are another matter as each area has specific laws so you may want to consult with an attorney in your area or online when you can do so privately.
Unlike quitting a job, it is not necessary to give notice. I strongly advise you obtain HG’s books “Getting Out” and “Escape”. Download these and become familiar with the contents. A consult with HG would be excellent.
To assist with your anxiety, employ some methods to increase your “feel good” hormones. Used deep breathing exercises or meditation or yoga. Spend time in nature (even if your own back yard, but preferably away). Take long showers or a baths or a swim or visit a body of water. Talk back to your fears it diminishes their power. Create a vision of a future you will love and move towards it a little every day.
No matter what he chooses regarding his addiction, it is his decision. Do not let him manipulate you and guilt you into staying. Stay firm. You can do this. I wish you the very best with your future.
Also as to psychopaths they don’t feel the same emotions. They have no concept of “ joy.” Can you imagine?
I can’t imagine this.
Empaths who have codependency should not stay the way they are. They must change. They must keep what’s good for them and discard what is not and that means behaviours and thought patterns as well as people. And they need to become more aware of what ‘good for them’ means. What they instinctively *feel* is good or valuable actually is not.
Anna, when you look at history, remember the problem is that history is written by conquerors and that is the only one perspective that we have. But even if you look at the given historic info you’ll see how many humans were killed by inquisition. There was a proportion of non empathic population created, by selecting and killing off the other.
Also there are huge amounts of stored artifacts which never saw the light of day, because they don’t fit an already established culture/history. Some archeologists will tell you, there are findings locked away and we are not allowed to talk about it. They are silenced.
What we have now are the two kinds, who clearly tick differently. And ticked differently also in the past. Who knows maybe the disproportion was even towards the N’s/psychopaths and there were less empaths. Or maybe not, and it only came to be via cuts out of the empathic population in the past.
The other thing is, the idea of not judging is a doctrine to put our mind to rest. If you don’t judge, someone else will do it for you. See cancel culture, silencing, woke and so on.
You mean probably don’t judge/blame those who were raised in LOCE and had no other choice of becoming who they became. Yes, I agree they had no choice and developed by design of their genes and circumstances. It don’t give them the right though to turn the life of others to hell. They don’t ask, they just do what they do, as the friendly empath/normal is not judging and is so accepting and tolerant.
And yes, there will be differences (in intensity) in their behavior as we learned from the comments here. And positive things they brought were also mentioned..
Idk what to think of all of this and how to align it..
Perhaps I would judge harshly on some things and would not consider any grey area. It depends. Some part of the circumstances I must go along with (for now) and others I can do differently.
Jordyguin, this is very true.
There is actually a good series on Netflix about how they found some of the ruins in South America predate the current thought of evolution and how long humans have lived in civilised society. It is called “Ancient Apocalypse”
Oh yes pass it on, everything ancient, take a seat! But I quitted Netflix years ago.. Maybe I’ll find it else where😘
DNA research is changing that. Consider homosapiens and Neanderthals. The “ gentle shy” Neanderthal was subjected to genocide. The largest percent of killing the world has seen ( again percent wise) in the great open world back then. Yet they coupled. DNA is traced to this day especially in East Asians. It says a lot about mankind.
Neanderthals, indeed! Contagious are you being contagious, reading my thoughts, my mind?😘 Did you know that DNA trace research on the neanderthal genome is also done via the kind of tests the population was subjected to all this past years?! I find it a very strange coincidence. We live in exiting times🥰🦣
Putting some Humanities in the discussion, have you read the novel The Inheritors, by William Golding? You would be surprised. It’s beautiful and it illustrated the genocide you are talking about. The dramatic irony rests on the fact that as readers, we identify with the nice ones, but we are the offsprings of the shitty ones instead. I know this is a bit of a spoiler but like I tell my students: if the work is older than 20 years, it’s not a spoiler. You had plenty of time! Haha. Check it out!
Anna,
I like your thinking here. Top predators are territorial and practice co operative aggression. The Neanderthals held back the Homosapiens for a considerable period and neither group was passive. The need for aggression stems from hunting grounds so is similar to the concept of modern warfare.
Even in times of peace we fight amongst ourselves! Over time I think we evolved to appear less aggressive. Less obviously predatory, but I that predatory nature just lies dormant until there is a need for it.
I haven’t seen ‘The Last of Us’ but I saw a fair few seasons of ‘The Walking Dead’ and thought it was very accurate in terms of how things would pan out, apart from the zombie part.
In the modern age propaganda has been instrumental in war. The interesting thing though is that propaganda is rooted in emotional manipulation. Psychopaths are immune to emotional manipulation, they spot it a mile away. You can’t manipulate a psychopath, there’s not enough emotion to work with. Propaganda would fail. You can motivate a psychopath, “Do this, get that” but that would be costly. You would essentially have to pay the psychopath to support the cause / convince him that the cause would lead to personal gain. Even then, the psychopath is incapable of trust (oxytocin again) so you’d have your work cut out persuading them into the cause in large numbers. Normals can be manipulated, as of course can empaths, we fall in for free. Makes you think doesn’t it?
Xx
Truthseeker6157 it does indeed.
Mercenaries switch sides quickly in a war, they have allegiance to none. It is all about how much they get. If an offer is better then they will switch sides very quickly.
Yep, TS, makes me think..!
Am I correct on: all Greater Narcissists and the Upper Mid-Rangers are psychopaths? (but never the middle/low Mid-Ranger, or Lesser?)
Jordy, my dad was a UMR but not a psychopath, at least from his NDC results. I did not see psychopathic behavior from him either but may not have recognized it. Some UMR’s and even MMR can be psychopaths I believe.
Hi Jordyguin: I think they are different. Different brains. Psychopaths don’t need fuel. All narcs do. This causes me confusion on how someone can be a psychopath and narcissist. HG answered my question saying the psychopathy controls. I look forward to learning more….;)
Hey Jordyguin.
I’m afraid I can’t answer that.
Xx
TS, do you know if the brain of the narcissists and psychopaths looks exactly the same? I mean all the receptor things, wiring and chemicals you mentioned.
Hey Jordyguin
I haven’t seen any studies conducted on the brains of narcissists.
There have been various studies carried out on the brains of psychopaths.
The university of Wisconsin conducted a study using two types of images. DTI images showed reduced structural integrity in the white matter fibres connecting the amygdala (responsible for mediating fear and anxiety) and the ventromedial prefrontal cortex (responsible for empathy and emotions such as guilt).
fMRI imaging showed less coordinated activity between the amygdala and ventromedial prefrontal cortex.
Separate studies have proven the mutation / difference in the oxytocin receptor. Oxytocin has been proven to be present but it is not taken up by the psychopathic brain as it would be in a neurotypical brain.
The amygdala and insula are said to be smaller in the psychopathic brain. The anterior insula is responsible for subjective feeling states thought to provide a basis for the ‘self’ or the sentient feeling of ‘selfhood’. Feeling states also play a role in the memory of feelings such as joy, sorrow, pleasure and pain as well as explicit motivation (the conscious desire to engage in behaviours).
The amygdala processes fear and anxiety and is also responsible for the recognition and perception of emotions.
I haven’t seen any studies about the brains of narcissists. That’s not to say they don’t exist, rather that I haven’t seen or searched for them.
Xx
Thank you dear TS! This is most interesting! I wonder if the size of the amygdala is rather normal in the brain of a narcissistic psychopath, narcissist. I found a very short reference to neuro imaging in a narcissistic brain, compared to a psychopath’s brain — where the empathy regions were inactive — in the narcissist’s brain apparently there were flashes in the empathy regions referred to as „empathy come and goes“. What we learned from HG — cognitive/false empathy it must be.
Hi Jordyguin, you’re very welcome 🙂 That’s interesting about empathy ‘ come and goes’ I wonder if that might be down to the deterioration of fibres. Emotional empathy was never learned so the fibres deteriorate perhaps through lack of use. The odd flash here and there might make a bit of sense in that context. Things don’t deteriorate at the same rate, the odd flash could be a live or partially functioning fibre that hasn’t fully deteriorated.
Pure speculation on my part obviously, but you would expect similarities in the brains of psychopaths and narcissists, not from birth but in adulthood perhaps.
Xx
Yes, psychopaths don’t care that they don’t trust. They may even value it.
Correct.
Anna, hi! A psychopath is born. A different brain. A different species. Some call them predators. Some say they have the warrior gene. Their brain has been studied. They have a 10% larger Straiathon of neurons in the forebrain. They have a smaller amygdala.There are studies of different eye behaviors. There are studies on hormone differences like OxyContin. They don’t have anxiety or fear. There is no known help to change them. They are who they are. My heart goes out to parents with this child. What I don’t get is how they also become narcs? A psychopath doesn’t need fuel. How can this coexist?
Contagious. Do you mean Oxytocin?
They are human like everyone else. To be honest not enough studies have been done. Some lead normal lives and are excellent in their field of choice. Such as brain surgery for example.
As for narcissism developing. HG has already discussed that many times. It is a defence mechanism against trauma or abuse. If a psychopath is abused then maybe they develop narcissism as a defence mechanism. The dark triad or dark tetrad etc.
Personally Sociopaths in my view are more dangerous as they have the ability to feel if they choose to do so. This gives them the advantage of using empathy to lure their victims in.
We do it today with our fascination with violent tv and games. Even empaths. I watch them. But they aren’t “ real”
Anna: The brain is different in a psychopath. No hope. No cure. Day one. Sad for the parents and child. A child with the narc gene has hope if given the right environment.
Contagious. Indeed. You are correct. Psychopathic brains are wired differently. There is no neural connection between the amygdala and the frontal lobes/prefrontal cortex.
However, people learn to use other brain regions all the time, for example stroke victims or those who have had accidents. Stem cells can also replace and regrow if they are applicated. They regrew organs using stem cells in a laboratory.
Also there is still a nature nurture debate. Animals when they are born can walk, a human infant is defenceless. The neural networks develop between the age of 0-3. This is a very important part of development for a child. If anything happens during this period it can lead to devastating consequences.
Prevention is better than a cure.
I do think in the future that psychopaths will be able to have a cure. We live in a strange world. We have all this technology and yet we humans are still pretty much the same.
They still do not really know much about the different types of ASPD. Including sociopaths. There is still much to learn.
I have read a lot on this. No hope BUT psychopaths have been forced in therapy for criminal convictions and there are attempts to teach them the value of following rules, laws etc… prison, the death sentence is an educator. Even psychopaths can conduct themselves in a way to avoid consequences. They are goal oriented after all and I doubt their goal is to end up in jail.
Perhaps future brain surgeries on the brain will make a “ cure” but to date, there is no hope at all to change their “ personality.” Scary anyway to think about a convicted psychopath being ordered for a brain surgery or brain change. They will never elect for it. There are legal rights. And a parent with a child with psychopathy? Risks? I don’t see it being solved soon. Good to hope but this diagnosis is the worst.
DBT can help with anger issues
Contagious, DBT is not for everybody. It certainly will not work on narcissists. It does not always work for victims of narcissistic abuse, I proved that (therapists “failed” to assist me to ‘seek’ the reasons for my “anger”, “failed” to assist me to ‘resolve’ my traumas), otherwise I would have had no need to to “carry” the repressed pain all my life until finding HG’s work. His work was the only route that worked for me, thus, no need for me to have any DBT, at all. Another source of evidence, if you like, is Prince Harry, he’s “had” therapy (as he stated on TV, he “had” anger management therapy) and can you honestly suggest that it worked for him? For many people, the “source” of anger is as a result of narcissistic abuse and DBT may not be the answer, HG’s work is.
This post about psychopathy is fascinating. Thank you for writing it, HG, and describing yourself in detail.
When thinking about HG’s psychopathy in a detached way, it makes me curious. I have questions and want to delve deeper into the hows and whys of psychopathy. As long as I can be a ‘truthseeker’ from a distance, I do not find it frightening, but rather like a mystery to solve.
For instance, one question I have concerns the word ‘psychopath’. I think the word has become loaded with implications of terror and it sparks an almost irrational fear as soon as it’s mentioned. I think this is because it is often associated with serial killers and rapists, or people who commit horrific crimes, or the monsters and villains in movies and books. While such criminals are psychopaths, I think the serial murderers, rapists, cannibals and dictators, etc, probably account for a fairly small proportion of all psychopaths.
This doesn’t mean the non-criminal psychopaths are harmless. They are destructive and manipulative too, and in other ways, but the terror-factor of the word ‘psychopath’ causes a kind of blockage in people’s general understanding, or willingness to understand, what a psychopath actually is.
In your own personal case, HG, do you believe that society’s fear around the word ‘psychopath’ is justified or appropriate?
Another factor I find curious is why boredom/ennui leads to a need to prey on and feast on other people. Why does that cause/effect exist?
For example, non-psychopathic people also get bored and also feel ennui at times. There are times when I have felt bored or haven’t felt motivated or would rather procrastinate or can’t be bothered, etc. At those times, I consider doing something else to change my mood and eliminate the boredom. For instance, I may go for a walk, or read something, or begin an activity to occupy myself, or call someone for a chat, or do a puzzle, or write on a blog, etc.
It has never occurred to me to eliminate the boredom by being a predator or feasting on another person. Feeling bored or unmotivated has never even made me want to manipulate anyone or do anything to hurt someone or something else ‘just to see what happens’.
So what is the causal factor in a psychopath’s mind that creates that need to be a predator when feeling boredom, ennui or a sense of emptiness? It seems to me that it’s more than a lack of empathy or having no conscience or impulse control. It sounds to me like a need to punish another living thing or to destroy just for the sake of proving they can. It’s like an appetite for dissent or conflict or chaos.
While reading this post, at the point when HG described his disgust at the tedium of listening to someone’s dull existence, there is something in that reaction that I can almost relate to. I don’t feel the same kind of disgust or have fantasies about how to make someone scream or how to hurt them. The part I can relate to is a dislike of small talk or superficial conversations that seem pointless.
I understand that small talk is valuable in building a rapport and communicating without being intense or overly serious. I recognise the need to keep things light and positive, but these kinds of conversations seem a little fake and meaningless to me.
In literature about highly sensitive people, I have read that HSPs don’t really enjoy superficial, fake-positive small talk. I know that I don’t find it very edifying. I would rather contemplate something in greater depth and with more honesty. HSPs have a knack for sensing when someone is lying or being fake, and listening to small talk tends to highlight the lies or pretense or hypocrisy and that becomes irritating after a while.
But again, the irritation doesn’t lead to a sense of deep disgust. I understand why the small talk is necessary and I also empathise with what people are saying. I don’t fantasise about making someone scream or want to hurt them. That doesn’t occur to me. It’s the tedium and superficiality that I find boring and generally repetitive and uninteresting.
The emptiness at the core of HG’s description of psychopathy, and the actions that manifest because of that emptiness – I think these things are fascinating, but only from a distance.
Thanks again for describing your thoughts and experiences, HG.
When I think of narcissistic psychopath I think Yuval Noah Harari. I saw the dead eyes and the rictus grin when he describes his ideal future for humanity.
Did I meet a psychopath last night?
So my German Shepherd starts going crazy at 11 pm. When I look outside I see a kid (around 13-14) standing against the corner of my window next to my car. When I see him – he shakes his head but stays where he is.
I go out to see what is going on – why is a kid out at this time of night anyway? My dog is not going to shut up while he is there. He says he is hiding because a large dog was chasing him. No sign of the dog – but what confused me was the lack of nerves I would expect to feel from him (contagion). He was friendly, easy-going and relaxed. Likable even. His story seemed plausible except for the lack of emotion towards something which should be scary.
I for once (something seemed off) put the padlock on the 7ft gate and this morning I found the gate bent where someone had tried to enter – there was a crowbar near it.
The thing is – after getting caught already by me – would he not fear I would know who was responsible? Very strange – or coincidence?
Dearest Enthralled,
He’s a right little shit and I would be very concerned. He’s a bad egg and definitely up to no good. At that age he knows what’s he’s doing, also why is he out that late at night ? Again, where are the parents ?
The other day here in Australia, three girls aged 12, 13 and 14 “tortured” another 13 year old girl for four hours by beating and stabbing her for kicks. They stomped on her head and hit her with vapes n knives, They filmed and downloaded it all. Her face was swollen and unrecognisable. They all said they did it for fun.
They apprehended these 3 little psychos but being so young, probably nothing’s going to happen except a slap on the wrist.
“What we have here, is a failure to communicate” (quote from movie Cool Hand Luke)
Heaven help us !!!
I hope you reported it to the police and thankfully your wonderful dog alerted you. What a good boy/girl.
We need more Judge Judy’s.
Stay safe Enthralled, I’d be looking into CCTV.
💕
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Thanks Bubbles, been locking up tight since 🙂
CCTV could be what I need, but you are correct in your questions – why would you allow your child to be out at that time of night? Defies logic – I would be worried about them getting hurt – or something happening to them.
I too have been reading of more and more stories about young people being violent towards others. Used to be such cases were few and shocking – still shocking but becoming more common place sadly…
Enthralled, look after yourself and make sure to keep your doors, windows and gates locked and as Bubbles says get CCTV. If this young guy is what you think he is, he could develop, or have a fascination with you particularly if you are an empath, whether you know him or not, it doesn’t matter. Unfortunately, if he does have a fascination, this generally will turn to wanting to hurt you for his own fun. I have had something similar to deal with. But don’t let it get to you. Look after yourself Enthralled and keep the gates and doors locked.
Best,
DB
Dearest Enthralled,
We had a situation many many years ago where this kid vandalised my car on more than one occasion…..for fun. We found out who it was and the police went to his house where he and his parents pleaded for us not to press charges as he was about to start an apprenticeship. He lived in one of the top elite suburbs and his parents were professionals.
I said to the police, if he stops this vandalism immediately, I’ll drop the charges so he can pursue his career otherwise he would’ve had a criminal record and his life would’ve spiralled downwards. It made the the local paper and everything.
Never heard another peep! Thankfully!
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
I read there have been over 80 mass killings in the USA since 2023. I assume many are psychopaths . HG any idea if psychopaths killing others is on the rise and why? USA gun laws factor of course.
There are a variety of factors which contribute to mass killings and many of those factors are nothing to do with psychopathy.
Mr. Tudor,
I’m very confused, which isn’t surprising, lol. There’s so much misinformation and differing terminologies that people will use interchangeably. Such as psychopath vs sociopath. Do you believe that psychopath and sociopath are interchangeable or are they two different classifications that fall under the umbrella of anti-social personality disorder?
It is not surprising that you are confused, because many people used sociopathy and psychopathy interchangeably although that should not be done. There are also those who state that sociopathy is the unofficial term for APD and state that psychopathy is not a diagnosis and is not APD, which confuses people all the more.
To add to the confusion, there are those that state that APD is on a spectrum and therefore somebody can have APD but not be a psychopath, that psychopathy is an extreme form of ASPD. I do not like the spectrum concept as it confuses people (same as when it is used with narcissism).
Everybody has narcissistic traits, but only certain people have NPD and are a narcissist. Once a narcissist you have different sub schools but none is “more of a narcissist” than another.
Not everybody has anti social traits, some people have anti social traits but do not have ASPD.
I distinguish between simply have traits and not the disorder and those that have the disorder. I would also, for simplicity, state that if someone has ASPD there are either a sociopath or psychopath and do away with the suggestion that someone has ASPD but they have it less than someone else who is a psychopath as I find that confuses people.
Thank you for your detailed response, Mr. Tudor. This is extremely helpful.
This makes a lot of sense, it’s either/or, or neither, no ADPD spectrum. HG, in reference to this answer and your answer to Witch that sociopaths are the more loose cannon, less evolved ones, do you believe that both are born with it? Or that psychopaths are born that way and sociopaths evolve from an LOCE? I did see that you also believe that psychopaths are affected by their environment growing up, will this make them become a sociopath or is that not connected? Maybe already answered if one is born a psychopath and the sociopath is not.
Psychopaths are governed by genetics with their upbringing “flavouring” the behaviours but not creating them. Sociopaths are a product of their environment.
Thank you HG! This is what I thought, I appreciate the confirmation very much!
Don’t sociopaths still have a genetic predisposition? Otherwise what happened to the genes for empathy?
Mr. Tudor,
You’re on fire today! Thank you for all of these responses!
This is correct.
Sociopaths can also unlike psychopaths feel emotions if they choose to do so. They can turn them on and off. Psychopaths are like ice, sociopaths are like fire.
I swear if you stay in a relationship with a psychopath or narcissist long enough there is a danger of becoming a sociopath? Is this correct HG?
Hence the light being snuffed out. Long term emotional numbing is not good. So get out and stay out. Go no contact!
This is an odd question but our court appointed psychiatrist was interested about my ex husbands treatment of animals. This I get but also bed wetting. There is some link with pschopaths and bed wetting as children. Know of this? If so, what is the link?
HG, thank you for your time in explaining here. It’s very interesting and it does clarify (makes it easier to understand it from how you have worded it). Put simply, either someone is on the spectrum, or they are not – whichever one it is, determined by the traits, which may, or may not result in a combination of more than one “category” (ie narcissistic psychopath).
I’m still confused
Right now I’m the “why are you gay?” meme
lmao Witch
I’m “the puppies and butterflies”. It lands on the tip of my nose and is off again.
Dearest Witch,
I saw that veeeerrrrrry long interview ages ago…. hilarious 🤣
Now for some pasta 😂
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
@bubbles
I’m sure the Pastor is a narc but he’s so unintentionally funny
There’s another video of him where he says he watched gay porn to find out what gay men get up to.. strictly for research purposes (yeah right!)
And he was talking about fisting and he said
“and if that isn’t bad enough… then they put their arm DDDEEEPPPEER!!” 🤣🤣
Killed me off
Dearest Witch,
Typical religious rambling opinionated fruitcake, who loves to hear his own voice, definitely a narc. That’s why we find him funny cos we’re laughing AT him and all his ridiculousness.
I’ll have to search that video, just for shits n giggles 🤭
Thanks Witch 😁
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Thank you HG! I have used the term spectrum because psychopaths and sociopaths and ASPD seem to differ. All have no conscience. Some kill. Almost all commit crimes. All have no regard for laws, norms and rules but some go farther than others in violating them. Maybe the goals differ? I get that not all want to kill but after that it gets murky. Also I don’t get how narcs interplay? Narcs need fuel. Pschopaths just want what they want. How can they coexist? And if born a psychopath why would nature make you a narc too? So much to learn from you!
HG: I think the confusion is people associate psychopaths with serial killers such as Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dalmer because of tv. Antisocial is associated with criminals. Psychopathy involves manipulation, and deceit and no empathy but I think you would agree not all are blood thirsty killers. Most jails are filled with those diagnosed with antisocials or rule breakers. I referred to a spectrum because of these two differences. But I am now corrected. Perhaps sadists or those that enjoy control associated with pain is a category versus your common thief? I have read about the brain differences between narcs and psychopaths. Both are DSM personality disorders involving lack of empathy. The motive is different as is the brain structure. You stated I think that your psychopathy controls. Is that true of every narcissistic psychopath?
Films, book and television are there to entertain and to tell stories and therefore there is invariably artistic licence which, as you point out, does cause confusion as people fail to realise it is fiction to fiction based on a few facts.
It would depend which is the more dominant aspect of the hybrid, with me, it is my psychopathy.
HG,
That’s why I don’t like the word psychopath, people tend to assume that person is a crazy killer, when usually they’re neither one. More education needs to be put out in schools about psychopaths, sociopaths and narcissism. Maybe then, the assumption would stop, or at least lessen. Hopefully more of your work will be shared, especially the new work on psychopathy you’ll be sharing soon. Xx
Rebecca,
“That’s why I don’t like the word psychopath, people tend to assume that person is a crazy killer, when usually they’re neither one. More education needs to be put out in schools about psychopaths, sociopaths and narcissism.”
Not a bad idea (but would be interesting in the actual implementation – since many adults, themselves, have trouble wrapping their minds around the distinctions between those designations.)
School yards are a breeding ground for misinformation – and children’s animated movies are just as bad (even though they often offer teaching moments as a result) – specifically with the latter, terms like “psycho”, “psychopath” are thrown around carelessly – and I have noted the term “narcissist” popping up more in kid’s movies.
@WhoCares,
I’ve been called psycho, psycho girl and crazy, and I’m neither one of them. I’m called that because I have Geyser emotions, I’m a HSP and react strongly, emotionally…I tend to erupt when pushed too far, though now that I’m an adult, my fuse is longer and harder to ignite….that and I’m a redhead, with Irish blood, so people just expect it of me….a bit of stereotyping that fits me, somewhat….xx
Rebecca,
No, you’re none of those things.
I have an rl empath friend who reacts much more emotionally than me – she has Geyser qualities, so it makes sense. I understand the intensity of the emotional sensations and the need for them to be expressed.
When she is feeling something strongly and needs to vent, sometimes I have to check myself and not offer solutions etc., because what she needs at that moment is just the space to vent at someone who “get’s it.” And once she gets it off her chest – she’s much better.
@WhoCares,
I feel better too, once I vent I can calm down, but I need to let it out, otherwise the feeling just gets bigger and then I want to scream. I don’t like getting to that point, that usually happens when I try to push down my strong feelings and it just backfires on me….if I don’t vent. I usually vent by bitching on a rant, one of my friend’s at work, enjoys my expressions, when I’m pissed. She says, I’m very animated and the one expression makes her laugh, my face gets red and my eyes seem to light up….she tells me. 😂 HG, hasn’t seen that side of me. 😂 I have some triggers, I might tell HG what they are….I’m sure HG knows already 😂 xx Anyway, Geyser emotions can be very annoying when I’m trying to get a work project done and the dumb machine wants to act up and not function, so I get madder and madder at it, and finally I have to walk away and vent, before I scream and break it. I’ve learned to walk away, to keep from screaming like an idiot and breaking things…these preventive measures are better than the consequences of acting like a crazed idiot….it’s what I feel like when my emotions carry me off and away…I don’t like it. Xx
Rebecca,
I rarely get that angry (I am more likely to stuff my emotions) but sometimes it does build up…when I was still with my ex, I could always channel my anger into chopping wood. (Can’t do that now! Miss it actually. The chopping wood part – not the ex, or the anger.)
The only other time I have felt that angry was post-escape and (I thought the level of anger was due to having to review a gigantic box of past documents for legal purposes etc., and my ex launching an appeal at the time) but no – it turned out that I was living in close quarters with ANOTHER narcissist. (Didn’t figure out that one until during the pandemic.) And, I actually recall posting here about my anger and fellow commenters other insight and suggestions…but, you know what – it’s amazing how much of your anger resolves itself when you’re not physically around narcissists on a regular basis.
Rebecca, I can understand and appreciate what you say in your comment here. It sounds similar to how I used to ‘react’ when I was younger. It is good that you are aware of how some triggers at work can increase your ET and that you walk away at times. Do you have one of HG’s audio files on your phone so that you can listen for a few minutes, if needed (use like a ‘time out’)? Some people say that listening to HG’s voice helps in moments of ET gone “AWOL” if you like. It does take time to learn yourself to retrain your mind to respond differently. There will always be some kind of trigger, external stressor that you may not always be able to control, or prevent, from happening. I do realise how much you have been through and can understand. I am still around here and I do read your comments. Keep putting yourself back on the path, you’ll achieve what you are aiming for 🙂 X
@WhoCares and AspEmp,
Thank you both for accepting my angry side and for making me feel normal.
After coming here, on the blog and reading HG’s articles, I was concerned about my anger outburst and thought they could be narc fury. HG assured me that an empath may show some similar behaviors as a narc, but the reasons behind the behaviors are different. It took me a while to accept I wasn’t a narc. Mainly because, when I was a kid and I’d have angry outbursts, my mother would tell me that there was something seriously wrong with me and then had all these mental test done on me, like the one where you look at blobs of ink on a paper and they ask you what you see. That one looks like a splattered bug on a windshield…that one looks like lungs….I came back very imaginative, a bit high strung, very high comprehension and a bit emotional, but no serious problems. I swear my mother was disappointed at my results. She thought for sure I was defective in some way. No, I just have a miserable asshole for a mother.
Anyway, you both make me feel accepted and in whole, most of the people on the blog make me feel accepted. I know I’ve said it before, but I’m glad I found this blog, this website and HG’s work! Xx Seriously, made a difference in my life. Xx
Rebecca, thank you for your response. Maternal narcissist and that Lesser used similar words to me, the ‘put’ downs, at a moment of asserting control, maybe because it was a moment of threatening their control? Yes, maybe the ‘tests’ done as a child are quite usual, for all children, not just the ones that were “perceived” to be “difficult”? Good to read what you have to say about finding KTN and how it has helped you 🙂
Rebecca, if I remember correctly, we have a similar percentage of Geyser.
You’re not alone. There are plenty of us. Don’t worry about it so much.
Narcissists love outbursts. Just look into their sparkling eyes at that time.
Sometimes you also have to shake the atmosphere to create the wind and start the movement.
Normal people understand. It happens to them too.
Empaths – the most calm, sensitive, quiet and submissive – well, they have to get used to it. Each of us processes data differently.
When I support you and when I defend you, you will see that my outburst can be very useful for you and can solve a lot – or at least redirect attention.
Often, a second after a bunch of curses, I smile widely and say looking someone in the eye, for example: “Sorry, but I felt better right away. Whew. I wanted to throw this laptop out the window, but I controlled myself.”
It annoys me, when electronic equipment is slower than me. And almost everyone is, when I’m in a hurry or feel the need to do several things at once, now, immediately and now! 🙂
My friends don’t mind my outbursts. Some people think it is “cute”. Freaks! 🙂
—–
But yes, there are outbursts that make me ashamed. I apologize to you with sadness and a sincere heart, even a lament. I will scourge myself and repent for weeks or months if you are innocent and I have directed my rage at you.
It helps to talk to someone, who understands you. Sometimes it’s enough to say what happened in one sentence and look them in the eye. Relief.
My best friend says: “I absolve you” 🙂
And sometimes, when I explain that I want to do something, that I feel I shouldn’t, she says: “Okay, you have my permission” 🙂
Ha ha ha 🙂
@Joa, WhoCares and AspEmp,
Joa,
I’m 25% Geyser, 25% Carrier and 50% Savior.
55% Standard, 27% Codependent and 18% Contagion. I’m a mutt 😂 Ruff life. 😂 Sorry, I’m a goof. I’ve had people think it’s cute too , when I get annoyed at technical things not working right. I’ll fuss at it, like it cares it’s annoying me and is purposely not working for me. If I can’t get it to work, after trying for a while, the cussing starts. I’m not loud at first, I whisper to it in an angry tone at first, like I’ll say, “You little shit, I got too much to do for you to go and stop working, you little shit.” I usually get laughs and giggles from co workers. I’ll look up and smile st them and say, “sorry having a motivational speech with the printer here, before the sledgehammer comes out. Anyone seen my sledgehammer, I’ll get us a new printer.” I hear them laughing and I see them shake their heads. I usually get it working, without having to show it my little friend. 😂
For whatever reason, me cussing at a machine or technical device makes some people laugh, or when I get mad, some people will laugh. I told HG once that I’m like a chiwauwau when mad, all fierceness in a little package. 😂 My best friend gets a kick out of watching me have a fit, she cracks up and her eyes tear. We used to work at a bank together and I was in charge of settling the atm and the Main Vault. I’d forget to add a box of quarters or the new shipment, it wouldn’t add up right, so I’d have to go and recheck the count and I’d cuss at myself in the back room, while I was recounting. I’d find my error and cuss again, all mad at myself for making an error. I’d vent and calm down. Yeah, definitely Geyser here 😂 I’m glad yall understand me and at least my annoyance is humorous to some. 😂
@WhoCares and AspEmp,
I wish I was one of those calm empaths, but no I’m high strung and explode with all my emotions. When I’m comfortable with someone and can release myself fully…I laugh loudly, when I laugh it makes others laugh…I have a weird laugh, sounds like a dolphin on helium at times, sometimes Woody Woodpecker…different laughs for how funny something is to me…I even have a giggle that sounds like a villan giggle off a cartoon. I love to laugh and make others laugh. It makes me happy, to see others happy. I feel aglow when I’m happy, like I could just shot up in the air, my heart feels like it has wings and it wants to fly upwards…I feel like my feet are off the ground and I can’t stop smiling…I feel the happiness just glowing from my heart outwards…my laughter comes out and I feel like light. The emotion is so strong, the bad thing about being a Geyser is sadness and pain is just as strong and it’s like the devil himself is drowning me in my own misery and heartache. When I’m sad, my heart feels heavy and it hurts to breathe and I cry and cry. I hate that. Makes me feel weak, less than zero and I feel shame because it makes others sad, or like my mother, she would get angry and annoyed. I’d rather be less emotional at times, but I think my emotions allows me to get more out of life, otherwise it would be more boring to me. Maybe that’s why narcs feed off our emotions, they don’t have as many, so life is boring, so they need us to living it up a bit. I could be wrong, just a thought. If I’m right, it’s no wonder I have long relationships with narcs.
Rebecca,
and for me: 37% Geyser, 32% Carrier and 31% Savior.
52% Codependent, 33% Contagion and 15% Super.
I’m writing from memory, but if I’m wrong, the fluctuations are up to 1%.
So according to the nomenclature here, I’m a hybrid.
I prefer the term – that I am a mongrel 🙂 Mongrels are the best, faithful and full of surprises! I always adopt only mongrels – the poorest, the most “extinguished” (without hope) and the most aggressive. I like to watch them “bloom” beautifully, start to trust, feel joy and show all their potential 🙂
Just like with people…
—–
Of course! I also always say that electronic devices do this to me on purpose! 🙂 Sometimes I also stroke or gently pat an object and ask it nicely to make it work 🙂 I call some object by name. Just like my car – which I also talk to sometimes 🙂
Digression: I wrote somewhere earlier, that I feel integrated to the car while driving. You replied that you were also becoming part of the car. Yes, that’s the feeling, but I have to correct it – that’s car becomes a part of me 🙂 After all, I’m holding the wheel 🙂
Ha ha ha, “having a motivational speech with the printer here” -made me laugh a lot 🙂
Well, unfortunately, I don’t resemble a chihuahua – more like a knee-length mongrel 🙂 Sometimes there is an unwanted part of howling ancestors, but fortunately I rarely let myself off the leash. Rarely does anyone get to see it.
Oh yes! Bugs annoy me! Also my own. I’m afraid that someday I’ll be one of those muttering old ladies, who are bothered by mess, noise and a scruffy neighbor 🙂 Oh, nooooo…
Although it’s a better variant than my mom, who is constantly filing some lawsuits and not letting go of the fight mode, ha ha ha 🙂 And she involved me in it for years.
Yes, I would also like to have more calm within myself. I’m definitely getting that as I get older. On the other hand… how boring. Sometimes things just have to happen 🙂
I also sometimes laugh out loud, and when I speak clearly – I can be heard within 50 meters, ha ha ha 🙂 I can also speak quietly and gently like a mouse – although less and less the older I get.
Ha ha ha, “I even have a giggle that sounds like a villan giggle off a cartoon” – you made me laugh again 🙂
Yes, making others happy is my life’s goal. There is nothing to cheat about. Only then do I feel so good. It’s a very selfish goal 🙂
You have beautifully described the feeling of happiness Rebecca, I couldn’t have expressed it better. It’s the same with me. I am a radiant ball of happiness and I infect everyone around me. I’m flying… yes. Very high.
Sadness is my proper inner setting. It is here that I feel calm, harmony, silence, I am myself. I don’t cry – I lost this ability about 18 years ago. Sometimes I wish I could, but I can’t. Maybe because I love sadness now?
No – my sadness is not emotional. He is calm, understanding and tolerant. I like staying in this place.
Pain – it’s pushy and very compassionate. It’s cower my heart. I can no longer feel it towards myself (a long time ago I felt hurt – now only satisfaction or rage). I only feel the pain of others. It is as if all the suffering in the world was flowing towards me. I have to cut it off or I’ll die. My sister is sometimes on the verge of going crazy with this kind of pain – she can’t cut it off at some point. In fact, I am the only person, who can ease her contagious pain and redirect her attention to goodness and beauty. I do not know another person so sensitive and emotionally not adapted to life… And yet she is a wonderful mother of 4 children and an excellent wife. She was an outstanding and dedicated worker until she was taken over and isolated in her home…
When I read about your remorse for making someone sad, I remembered, when my daughter was about 9 years old. She got on the elevator and went downstairs, she didn’t wait for me. As a joke, I pressed my face against the glass in the elevator door and made a sad face, as if it was goodbye. I waited for the elevator and rode down with a smile on my face, wanting to continue this wistful scene and hold her as if we hadn’t seen each other in a year. It amused me a lot. I found my daughter sitting on the stairs, crying and distraught. I didn’t understand what happened. She couldn’t calm down for a long time, and finally she hit me and screamed: “Never make a sad face again!!!”. And I never did. I was horrified at how powerfully and terribly it affected her. I’m 99% sure her reaction would be different now – she would be laughing along with me. Thank you for reminding me. I will test my daughter, when I get a chance 😊 It’s great to watch her mature.
I can’t advise you, Rebecca, on how to ease this feeling of weakness and shame. I would gladly take over your sadness and even this shame. I’d brush it off like dust off my clothes. YOU HAVE THE RIGHT to be sad – whenever you want. YOU HAVE THE RIGHT to lie curled up and feel sorry for yourself – whenever you want. YOU HAVE THE RIGHT to be in a worse condition, sad, frustrated or angry – it’s nothing, you will bloom again anyway 😊
Maybe, like me, someday you’ll like this place. There you will find peace and strength to soar joyfully up again.
These were some of the most beautiful and touching thoughts I’ve read here, Rebecca. Thank you for opening your heart.
@JOA,
Narcs must be entertained by me at work then because I’m usually laughing outload, saying smart comical remarks or venting throughout my shift. 😂 I’m rarely not animated in some way. My coworkers, the ones I work close to, tell me they can hear my laugh from the other side of the building and I brighten the room with my warm greetings and smile. It’s funny, but I don’t see myself like that, I don’t think I’m loud and radiating with warmth, but apparently it’s how they see me. It makes me feel good and makes me think, mother, you were wrong about me, some people do like me and find me worth while.
😂 Joa, mutts are my favorite breed! It’s all I had growing up! I’ll never forget my childhood dog, he’ll always have a place in my heart and mind. He was a mix between a black lab and a dachund, if you can imagine a short legged, long back lab. 😂 He was adorable and the most protective and brave dog I ever had. Xx I still miss him. We picked him out at a pound, he was the runt of the litter. I was 6 and he passed away, when I was about 20. The current dog I have now is a mutt. He’s a mix of Jack Russell and Shiba Inu. He’s a character! He’s very emotional and I picked him out of the litter because he was the grumpy one, I love grumpy puppies, their grumpy adorable. 😂 Anyway, before I make HG more nauseous…. 😂 I see myself as a mutt empath too. Mongrel as you call it…..I see all my schools and cadres in me, especially the Geyser emotions and my Savior tendencies of rescuing animals and people. I like my mix, it’s me. Xx
Hi Contagious, do we know for sure that psychopathy involves manipulation? Is that true in all cases? No empathy I see but manipulation doesn’t make sense, they do what they do, get in their way they’ll move you out of their way, but manipulation doesn’t fit into that in my mind for some reason.
Personally, I draw the line between malign and scheming narcissists and kinda harmless narcissists. And amongst lower classes those that are physically violent.
Yes, it is maddening, the lack of clarity,… education on this would have made my life a lot easier. My brother in law has antisocial personality disorder, but he is neither sociopath nor psychopath. My parents are narcissists, but not psychopaths. Just annoying and not malign.
I have a friend who might be narcissistic, but he truly wants to appear as the best person possible and there is absolutely no malice.
This cannot be said my ex narc.
I know the psychopath look well, it is different from the empty look on pure narcissists’ faces.
Dear Mr Tudor,
Speaking of predators, looks like Tik Tok is about to be flicked ……why am I not surprised ?
🚫📵🚫
That can only be good news for the planet’s IQ.
You’re talking my language 😜 haha
Ps why do I find it weird you’re here now., posting as we type haha
Picture this, Mr Tudor coming out of the closet and having one on one paid face consultations ……. whoa !!! Epic !!! Cha Ching cha Ching 💰
🤣
Why am I laughing 😂
Very much agree.
Best,
DB
Here are some film characters who I suspect are Psychopaths. All terrific performances by the way.
1. Buffalo Bill – The Silence of the Lambs
2. Harlen Maguire (Also Sadist) – Road to Perdition
3. John Fitzgerald – The Revenant
Contagious, your son, the marines – ❤️🔥
Soldiers, the idea they represent and those who live it – a worrier for justice, a protector, their strength!
It’s what they must do – as with the regimes and the nazi for example, how it was mixed up. The soldiers must obey a leader even if they may understand the path this leader is taking, is wrong. Todays wars, the same problem right? Is there an active leader who is more just than the other? How do you determine it, if pre election promises are made and after not fulfilled, or the exact opposite is occurring. There must be sort of regulation in this case, which is not there and they are given the free ride of continuing. What must we really look at when we electing leaders if what we shown is a facade?
Hi Jordyguin: our military is funny. Our top leaders refused to be Trumps national guard. Told him to go to the national guard. Got fired. I come from a family of military. I think when electing: we need them badly. Membership is down. That’s not good when you consider China is rising as a military leader. This is a country where 1/3 of its citizens are in education camps. Children too. Human rights are zero. Privacy is zero. Don’t get me started on how they treat their animals. But as my one friend said why would you eat a bat, a rat, etc… very hungry. They have great poverty outside the cities. My file clerks husband goes to factories each year. Smog is so bad you can’t see 10 feet. ( ok LA was like that in the 70s). Good luck finding a toilet. I am told China is the next great threat. We need our military. Vote for those who support it. Whatever waste you think exists, imagine if the USA loses its status. We need them. I can tell you the boots on the ground work hard and are trained like no other. They are put through war simulations, trained until their feet bleed and must be proper in society. And educated at a desk on a number of things, languages needed for a new culture. My son is 8 years in. The media does not always get it right. When in Iraq, my son said the people were poor and good people. People aren’t a government.
Dani, reflecting on your question further, I gotta be honest with you and myself. Alexander the Great is my „weak point“. I adored him as a teen – I draw his portrait based on the statue which was found in 1886 near the Erechtheion on the Acropolis. I taped the portrait in the middle of one of the walls in my room and would stick more and more pieces of paper to it, expanding the drawing along the wall, portraying him and his sister Cleopatra, in the temple where he received his education from Aristotle and others, until it became a huge wall-drawing on one side of my room – I would have staring contests with it thinking about leaders, warriors, wars and history. I called this drawing „The moment of foreseeing“ – where he foresaw his destiny, his future.
Now being older I ask myself what is the cost for greatness? And is there a way of living brilliance and power without the destruction of the innocent and the nature? Where and in what form does the destruction (inhumane structuring of the society) begin and where are the empaths taken on board of the snowballing of the massacre and how can they prevent themselves from stepping in that machinery and performing what is against their nature?
I know I must always look at myself first and be consequent about my findings and the results I choose to act upon.
What do you think is the cost for greatness??
*😒weak spot not point🙄
Even with things as seemingly innocent as Hollywood, music, gaming etc, all do strongly influenced by narcs and that thinking seeps into our minds as normals and empaths. So much damage done, on so many levels.
Nothing innocent about Hollywood
I know. The evil brought to our world by narcissists is immeasurable.
A Victor, you are so right, but the evil brought by psychopaths is even worse than that brought from the narcissist.
Anna,
You may be correct.
I agree with you, HG. The story of the Black Dahlia comes to my mind about Hollywood and what can happen there. I watched a movie and a documentary on her, around Halloween time last year. Hollywood isnt as it portrays itself to be, all the glitz and glamor is just surface deep. The murder, jealousy, greed and envy go much deeper and more real, not to mention all the inappropriate treatment of children, like Shirley Temple and Corey Haim. The Me Too movement also brought into light, the treatment of some adult actresses and actors in Hollywood. It makes me grateful for my stagefright and having no desire to be a performer in Hollywood. I feel bad for those who got bit by the Fame bug and jumped in that moesh pit, just to be chewed up and spit out.
As a teenager, I read two parts of “Hollywood Wives” by Jackie Collins. It wasn’t high-end literature, but it had something “attractive” about it and it effectively disgusted me described lifestyle.
It’s not show family. It’s show business.
Hi Contagious and Joa,
You’re right, Contagious, but it’s a dirty, backstabbing business…one some people don’t survive to tell their story.
Joa,
I was surprised about Hollywood from the Me Too movement and I understand how a novel can turn your stomach to the realities of Hollywood and the lifestyles there. I have a friend, who moved from California, and she said, it has beautiful weather, but it’s hell on Earth, if you don’t have the big money. She hated it there, the crime, the people struggling, she said, it was worse there. I haven’t been to California myself, so I can’t give my personal opinion about living there, or even visiting there.
Rebecca: 1 out of 10 live in California. It’s the 5th GNP in the world. We have Hollywood, tech, farm, etc… it’s a big state or country with problems like any other. Hollywood is not like other manufacturers it’s an insecure business that rides on consumer tastes filled with nepotism, unions ( btw writer strike coming) and highs and lows but it’s big risky business. No one smart puts their own money in a film in Hollywood. And banking on winners is key. The internet has changed things for film and music so it is changing slowly and the Métoo movement help d end the casting couch but no doubt it still goes on sadly.
Dearest A Victor,
Totally AV …..excellent comment !
My perception of “Hollywood” and those in it has changed immensely. I don’t have time for any of them…. except one, Keanu Reeves hehe. I was however, very amused by Hugh Grant ….good show ! Thanks Mr Tudor for your follow up video.
I watched a video by Candace Owens talking about the Narcissistic Kardashian Cult. Very interesting ! It’s extremely worrying and concerning how much influence these narcs have on their followers these days. I loathe reality shows as well.
I’m actually happy with the way I look, my laugh lines, my aging gracefully. It defines me.
I don’t want to look like a duck or have that plastic fake look …there’s plenty of fake people already…. we certainly don’t need more. Look at all the botched face n boob jobs.
It’s all going to come back and bite them in the bum …..which is probably fake too 🍑
🤣 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Bubbles! Keanu as John Wick though!! A good man portraying “a bad man doing a good job”! 💪 .. there is that dignity in how the character is moving through the circumstances to gain his freedom..
Similar to Neo, but here he is not the “good” one, but the “bad” who is but the good. Reeve’s theme😂
Dearest Jordyguin,
Just goes to show what a good actor he is J
We have actually watched the John Wicks movies …our daughter keeps us ‘on the ball’ and ‘finger on the pulse’ so to speak haha
Hi Jordyguin,
I loved John Wick, the first was the best! There’s so much about that character , that appeals to me and the movie has my Justice and Anger traits grinning with satisfaction. It felt good to watch it. 😁
I just saw John Wick 4. It’s a video game. Keanu by all accounts is a good man but his Wick series is for gamers obviously.
Bubbles: my son asked me what life was like pre internet. Having a phone with a cord. Lol. I said it’s a mix. I love the connection to knowledge and the world and to connect with family members far away BUT I think the youth crisis and mental health crisis is due to it. Young people look at people like the Kardashians ( and Kim is my age) and others and compare and feel insecure etc… they look at friends posts and feel excluded or worse failures. The internet is often as much as a fraud as thinking that neighbors marriage is perfect. You don’t know. But it has been proven social media has harmed our children greatly. My son agreed!
Dearest Contagious,
Our kids went thru school without mobile phones, internet or social media. They survived on books, dictionary’s, hard yakka, playing outside, having friends and relying on poor ol mum n dad for some knowledge and wisdom….
poor buggas 🤣
I feel there were fewer distractions and we spent more time with family and friends. We worked harder on relationships.
We had backyards with home grown vegetables and fruit trees. Baking was the norm. Everyone is glued to their phones now. We’re over saturated with everything. We’re become easily distracted. The internet has created more anxiety and depression and isolation has become overwhelming to a lot of people. Social communication is so different now. We’re too soft and covered in bubble wrap. We become the sensitive generation and now there’s the abundance of Karen aggressors.
The Kardashians are false and are laughing all the way to the bank. Their kids will suffer in the long run.
We may be intellectually smarter, and tech savvy but it’s made us dumber in so many ways. We are actually destroying ourselves at an alarming rate along with this beautiful planet .
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Hi Bubbles,
I agree with what you have written here. The internet, social media, mobile phones and technology in general seems to be more important than the ‘reality’ people are actually living in.
I think many people are addicted to their phones and/or social media at the expense of their immediate lives.
In another thread under this post, the subject of child abuse is discussed. The examples of abuse are extreme and obvious.
In contrast, over the past week, I have seen a handful of situations in my own street that few average people would describe as ‘abusive’ because they are so normal, or average, or commonly observed that they wouldn’t fall under the ‘abusive’ umbrella.
However, I have read quite a lot of scientific research and general knowledge about things like early child development, attachment, communication with babies (e.g. serve and return), interactive physical and emotional engagement, the mother-baby dyad, the way babies learn language, etc, – and what is considered ‘normal’, average child-raising these days can be considered inadvertently unhealthy or even ‘abusive’.
The real-life examples I’ve seen in just the past week:
– Young mothers walking with their babies or young children in prams or strollers and completely ignoring the child while glued to their mobile phone like their life depended on it. They push the stroller with one hand while holding the mobile phone in the other, texting and reading and they’re not even looking ahead at where they’re going.
– A grandmother outside on the street with a small baby in one of those baby walkers with wheels. The grandmother pushed the baby walker with her foot every so often and didn’t really engage with the baby. It looked like she was reluctantly doing her ‘duty’ and couldn’t be bothered.
– Three children playing where one child is much younger and smaller than the others and the bigger two are openly mocking, hitting, slapping and laughing at the little one who is too small to properly defend himself. The parents are nowhere to be seen while this is happening.
– A young mother who has only recently given birth who comes outside every day at regular intervals to have a cigarette while glued to her phone.
– A teenage boy walking to school in the morning and glued to his phone while walking.
When seeing these examples, I have not been actively looking for or at these people. They just happened to be outside or where I could see them when I happened to be outside. To me, I see ‘abuse’ in each one, but to describe it as ‘abusive’ to someone would make me sound as though I’m overreacting or paranoid because these behaviours are so ubiquitous and normal these days.
People are addicted to their phones and social media and I believe it is at the expense of living a healthy normal ‘real’ life and raising healthy children who can relate to other people in an emotionally healthy way. But, god forbid you say that to anyone.
Dearest Contagious,
I completely left off “privacy” from my comment.
“WE WANT PRIVACY, WE WANT PRIVACY” 🤣
One of the most important factors ever ! ( my brain tends to have many after thoughts …..must be an empath thing hehe )
Nothing appears to be off limits these days, NOTHING !
I just had Facebook ‘thrust’ this newsfeed before my delicate eyes (whilst enjoying my Sunday morning coffee) of a previous MAFS Martha and Michael couple. They had a baby and her nipple milk duct was clogged so they thought it a grand idea for him to suck on it to get it flowing and in the process felt they needed to video this and share with all n sundry.
This is just gross, unnecessary, private, nobody cares and know one needs to know. When is all this going to stop?
China must be having a field day watching everyone make fools of themselves.
Is nothing scared anymore ?
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Dearest Wiser Now,
I’m positive I responded to your comment regarding babes kids iPads n iPhones. I’ve been waiting for it to come thru.
It probably got clogged in the Tudor castle garberobes and now floating in the moat somewhere 🤣
I concurred with your statement however what I wrote I’ve totally forgotten. 🥴
Your well written comment wasn’t ignored lovely
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Dearest A Victor,
I forgot to mention Brendan Fraser ….he’s a good one…. along with Keanu ☺️
Hi Bubbles,
Thanks. Since learning about narcissism and it’s impact on so much in the entertainment world, in our culture at large as a result, I have changed my thinking and my viewing habits also. It is disgusting to me to think that narcissistic values and mindset is being eaten up daily by most in the world. Even if it is from a shock value standpoint, it still impacts our minds and tolerances.
Keanu is fun, Brendan Fraser and another I like to watch is Matthew McConaughey. Even though the shows they act in are likely written by narcs!
I agree, I am happy with my appearance also, it is who I am. How is that for a sense of self? 😃
Take care Bubbles, thank you for the comments!
AV 💕
Victor and Bubbles! Yes, Keanu is am empath king! HG: do a series on why?
Dearest A Victor,
Having broadened my horizons with this narcissistic insight, I’ve questioned and challenged like never before. I observe thru a whole new lens with everyone from celebrities, politicians, singers, actors…..you name it.
I’ve reevaluated Matthew McConaughey and he’s evolved over the years ….he appears to a better person.
I’m very much in line with your train of thoughts AV regarding the entertainment world, sad but true.
I’m ecstatic you have claimed your ‘sense of self’ … you go girl! Should be more of it!
Congratulations 🥳
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Dearest Bubbles, another one of my favorite empaths is from your neck of the woods, Hugh Jackman. Great actor and great to look at, lol!
Dearest Leigh,
I tend to agree with you. We luv our Hugh! One of the nicest blokes and very genuine.
Saw him in concert “The Greatest Showman” …… just fabuuuuuuulous! His best mate Ryan Reynolds is another one I like too.
Sad you can only count the nice ones on one hand these days, maybe two at pinch hehe
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
We end up not even knowing what is normal behaviour..
I really like it when HG says ‘this is what a normal person would do’ because sometimes I don’t know.🤷♀️
Yes! Jasmin, that is the same for me!! I have been so surprised sometimes at how normal people, and healthy empaths, would handle things so differently than what I learned and came to expect. It is a relief to have that information. Then, if we don’t see “normal” behavior, it serves as a red flag. It also helps me to slow down and not react from my old understanding but instead process how I really want to respond and then do so accordingly.
Exactly!
Also when we see normal behaviour (now that we know it’s normal) this may tell us that this person do not have a need to assert control over us. Some of the normal behaviours that before came off as strange to me (because it wasn’t what I expected) is now a green light instead.
😊
What a great thought Jasmin! Not only are some things not a red light, but sometimes they can be a green light! I had not considered that! Thank you!
On Thursday I was with my daughter on another visit to the hospital. Her previous surgeon (female) was hopeless. She ordered the same tests 4 times without any sense (I had already come to her with SPECIFIC results and a diagnosis from another doctor) and postponed the operation for several months, knowing how my daughter was suffering from pain and that if it got worse, it could lead to a life-threatening situation.
Very unpleasant remarks to my daughter, an elusive kind of abuse. Objective treatment.
I was able to change surgeon in this hospital. The daughter was booked for an expedited operation. Unfortunately, there has already been inflammation. The new surgeon amazed me with her empathic approach. When she did the ultrasound, she said to my daughter: “Dear child, mouse, I am so sorry, that you suffered for so long.” Then a ball of emotion lodged in my throat, that someone had finally taken action.
When we left the hospital, my daughter said in a delighted voice: “Mom, how nice the doctor was!”. I replied: “She was normal.” My daughter corrected: “No, she was very nice!”. I looked my daughter in the eye and said: “I say to you exactly the same as you say to me. The doctor was normal, because this is how EVERY person should behave.”
Joa, I’m so sorry to hear about your daughter’s health issues but I’m glad to hear she has a surgeon who will finally help her.
Wow Joa! What a great opportunity to witness empathy in action and what a great conversation with your daughter about it! Win/win! Glad she is able to get her surgery sooner, that’s great!
Joa, thank you for sharing about your daughter’s (and your) experiences with the doctor that did not help you, despite you having the right information in your hands. You worded it like “an elusive kind of abuse and objective treatment” – I had similar, now I speak with different doctors that listen, take what I have to say seriously instead of “pretending” to listen. In my opinion, some doctors are right for the positions they work in and others are not, it may also depend on what field of health they operate in.
I am sorry that your daughter suffered for longer than necessary and is now accessing the right assistance. That will be a peace of mind for both of you. No doubt, with your support, your daughter will recover sooner from what she is going though. Best regards to you both x
Leigh, A.V., thank you. Today they called me from the hospital and I know that my daughter will go “under the knife” (or rather laparoscope) in very good and experienced hands. I relaxed.
Although, of course, at the same time, a note of fear began to gently flutter: “What if something goes wrong?”, which I immediately chase away 🙂
This comment was more about conversation about what “normal” means. I described on a “live” example from my life – how I see it.
Of course, with my daughter will be fine, because has to be. And the end and dot! And there is no other solution 🙂
Hi Joa, it will be fine, as you said, she’s in good and experienced hands.
Your real life experience with “normal” was great, thank you for sharing.
Please let us know how your daughter is after her surgery. You and she will be in my thoughts.
Dearest Joa,
So very happy for you and your daughter. Glad you finally found an empathic caring person.
I witnessed a female doctor chastising a staff member at her reception desk the other day. No need to guess what she was.
A “normal” analysis by our revered Mr Tudor would indeed be an asset to us all.
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
So true!!!reading these comments makes me feel less weird. And when HG gives those scenarios it helps a lot in order to think ahead for when certain situations may come up.
HG,
Do you think you can maybe do some videos or articles on normal behavior, so we can compare them next to narcissist behavior?? Xx
Hi Rebecca,
That’s a good idea!
At the moment it a bit sporadic. At HGs old channel there are these ‘tip to out the narc’ where the normals awnser is mentioned after the different schools of Ns awnser:
https://youtu.be/SLia8nXEgj4
There’s a part 2 as well. VERY GOOD!
Hi Jasmin, you hit the nail on the head! We’re so used to narc behavior we often don’t recognize normal behavior when we see it.
I try to pay attention to the people that Mr. Tudor has already confirmed as normal or an empath. He has a series on YouTube of 10 Famous Empaths + 1 Bonus Empath. His Will Smith series is very informative as well. I also make it a point to watch his videos on Catherine, Princess of Wales. (I hope I got that title right. I’m trying to score brownies points, lol.) He just did a video on Jacinda Arden also.
I know these individuals are empaths and not normals. But their behaviors will give us a barometer of how normals or empaths act vs. how narcissists act.
Hi Leigh,
I just saw this comment. I do the same. Every video about the empaths I listen carefully.
Whoah, awesome! Looking forward to more material on the psychophath. 👍❤️
Its nice to see you Leela. I hope you’re well.
The thing which I find even more peculiar is, you as an empath have to learn to apply coldness and indifference in order to get a solid no contact regimen which otherwise would not work. Well yes, you apply indifference to their lies and not their true motivation or feelings, but isn’t a true feeling a big wound which motivates them (to lie) after all? In order to free yourself, you must apply that which created them – ignorance to them, as their LOCE was inflicted on them via a traumatic experience. In this process, by freeing yourself, lies the hurt of them and you. And it can’t be done in another way. Because if you don’t do it, they continue to hurt you, destroy you. So it becomes the game of survival, either you or them. Wound on wound.
I understand that it must be in this case. As long as the indifference don’t take hold of the empath, I’d say you have no other choice than be like that to certain very dangerous people. And if it does, you slowly may become indifferent more and more, accepting ideas and norms which will sustain the battleground, continuing to provide the LOCE on a small and big scale.
I reflect on what is shared here and put my thoughts perhaps in a brusk manner at times as all this topics stir me up, yet please don’t feel attacked or critiqued. Whenever I write „you“ I include myself in that. As I want to find a better understanding of what matters in life and how it can be lived without a constant infliction of pain and injustice. Lived to the fullest potential including the fiery energies and the sense of mightiness.
Hi Jordyguin,
When I need to break away from a toxic individual, they can be either narcissist, normal, empath or narcissistic…I pull away emotionally first and develop, over time, coldness towards them and then indifference and then I’m able to completely walk away and not look back. It’s like they never existed, the indifference is complete for me. I may even forget their name after a time, rare, but it has happened with those, who were friends,but then turned out to be harmful to me. It hurts for a time, but like building a callous, the pain doesn’t hurt once you build some hardness around it. It just takes work and determination.
I think sadly in general people are just bad
That is why we have laws, the police force etc. Without laws people would just do what they want, and that would look pretty ugly.
Look at the book/story “Lord of the flies”
As mentioned before, look at war. When it breaks out and all society breaks down, people behave like animals.
There is a myth that humans are good. It is simply not true
Look at how our food is produced. How animals are treated. How people spread over the world like a virus destroying the natural habitat of animals. All they care about is me me me. How they look, if they have the latest smart phone. Themselves. Basically.
If you ask me, and this is just my opinion
Most human beings are narcissistic. They may have rose tinted spectacles on their eyes, living in a bubble not wishing to see the truth.
If we did not have civilised society and certain rules in place. It would look very ugly indeed.
I love this scene from the matrix.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5foZIKuEWQ
Where the smith says that “humans are a virus”
Matrix is a very interesting film!! I was thinking about it just recently.
About the words of Smith you mentioned; when I observe little children, I see that they are perfect – they are not a virus. It is what they are put through as they grow up, make some of them behave in that way.
Painful to witness all of it. I think if we are given the ability to see it, understand it, we are also equipped to do it differently. In our own lives, so it would change bit by bit, slowly, but it would bear fruits.
I remember as a child I went to the trocadero Piccadilly Circus in London. There was an exibition there. It showed the most dangerous animals. Then it said, when you go round the corner you will see the most deadliest animal on the planet.
I turned the corner and saw myself. Reflected in a mirror.
Human beings are the most dangerous species on the planet. They can do good but they can also do evil.
I find it sad that this planet has so much. Everyone can be fed and have a good life, but the greed of the ones who want more, have no empathy causes suffering.
Look at our technology, it is amazing and yet humans are still the same. You only have to look at war to see that. The primitive game of the territorial pissing ground. It is sad.
📞 Heads up, Mr Anderson!
“Because I choose to.”
I have met children with concerning and sometimes even evil behaviours. I do not automatically like a person just because they are a child.
Don’t have to like them, I think, but understand them..
https://narcsite.com/2017/08/11/the-narcissistic-truths-no-102-2/
(the link don’t work If I click on it. I hope this one does.)
It’s the narcissistic truth No. 102. – You cannot harm emptiness
https://narcsite.com/2017/08/11/the-narcissistic-truths-no-102-2/
Hi Jordyguin,
Yes, the fist link didn’t work. Is it something in the comment section you are referring to?
Understand them yes, but from a distance.
“You can’t harm emptiness.” Thank you for that much needed reminder, Jordy.
Jasmin💕(no, not a comment just the image and the words of the narcissistic truth, the second link is working)
Leigh💕
😚😚
Anna, you forget that during the war – apart from what you describe – people also develop a sense of great community, the most beautiful ideas, faith, hope, cooperation to survive, touching impulses of help and sacrifice.
In the face of death and the atrocities of war – love blooms, and every ray of sunshine, every smile through tears, every blooming flower becomes an element of celebration of life in the greatest dimension.
Also what I think makes it difficult for me in understanding you is the boredom you mentioning. In fact I’m not on the one page in understanding what is meant by this word and how it feels, whenever someone would mention it. If I’m correct it is the absence of interest of motivation-action or interest of experiencing the experience, or not knowing what one want? So the motivation and achievement for your multiple results and brilliance than only lies in the narcissism and the need for fuel as it is tied to survival. So narcissism in this case is a force for moving forth and can be viewed as balancing out the boredom and giving the psychopathy a more civil frame in coexisting (otherwise the bodies would accumulate) if I understood correctly.
Or is psychopathy the driving force to elevate boredom by sadism and power-over behavior? And the narcissism is giving it direction and limits the deadly outcome?
But control and power is tied to narcissism only, right? So it can’t be part of psychopathy or is it still?
Also: fury comes from narcissism, right? Hatred too? Or does it come from psychopathy?
I don’t understand if the sustained periods of time where all there is, is the emptiness – is there anything in the emptiness that sparks anything, such as hatred? Or do all emotions come from narcissism?
Do you experience (via psychopathy?) the rage, the hatred, the disgust, the antipathy for life and life forms and that is why the bodies would accumulate? And is narcissism giving you the taste for life and thus it brings you on the side of not extinguishing it completely but seek to control it rather to provide the taste for life?
Does a pure psychopaths have meaning and value of his/her own existence and what is it tied to? Do beliefs plays any role in it or is it just instinct? How do they explain themselves about themselves in their mind? Or is there no such process or need for it?
Also is there such thing as a split where either psychopathy or narcissism want to taker over? Sort of internal fight or do both sides get along and the outcome is satisfactory to both sides?
Do both sides (narcissism and psychopathy) keep the Creature imprisoned? Or does the Beast keep the Creature imprisoned? And is the Beast then the part of psychopathy? Or is the Beast the product of both narcissism and psychopathy?
Does the psychopath in you always know the outcome of every relationship which makes the idea of the One who could finally meet the criteria for the demands of perfect fueling is purely a program from the narcissism?
Because you mentioned it is the psychopath who gets bored quickly, I would now make the assumption it is the psychopath who gives up on the relationship then?
No.
The rage come from the narcissism. The disgust, antipathy and contempt can manifest in both narcissism and psychopathy.
HG, is narcissism a barrier to psychopathy? Can we say, that in some sense narcissism “saves” a person from plunging into “psychopathic” nothingness?
Jordyguin, great questions!
No.
Thank you, HG!
Hmmm, annoys me, that I can’t wrap it my mind around it 🙂
I want to feel it and know it.
Though, I don’t know why?
😅I was in the flow, they all came at once😂😚
@joa
The fury exists for all narcissists in some form.
Thank you HG, sir!☺️ With all the other answers combined, the picture becomes clearer! Thank you!🌟
Coldness and indifference, as it is tied to psychopathy, is in my view responsible for sadism which can take many forms, physical and non physical. And this is interwoven in the society and became the norm and acceptable because the threshold was erased over time, so this element is not just lived by psychopaths only. And the exploitation of humans (which are viewed as dead pieces of the societal construct) and nature reached its peak. Nature or animal kingdom don’t exploit or extinct their surroundings, except the human intervenes in that chain. Nature regulates itself, stops reproduction etc. The society or civilization however do exploit and extinct as the result of the state of indifference which then leads to sadism of various forms but is not seen anymore as sadism and suffering becomes a norm. Predators in natural environment don’t extinct their prey. There is again that damn balance. How I understand psychopathy – it is a state which may evolve only for its own benefit, as it stands on the suffering of others. Perhaps there is the possibility of the recognition of this unnatural state. However I understand the difficulty for that recognition if there is the missing or dimmed empathy and so on.
Jordyguin: I don’t think all psychopaths are sadists. Most just have no conscious or a broken conscious and want what they want. Sadists are those who enjoy others pain. Not all psychopaths are sadists. Right HG?
Correct. A pure psychopath wants things and if you get in the way of the psychopath getting that thing and you must be hurt, so be it. A psychopath exhibiting sadism actively enjoys and derives pleasure from you being hurt.
HG, have you ever been in a relationship with a psychopath and if so, was it a case of daggers and weapons for fun in bed or was it chaos with a lot of minding your p’s and q’s for survival?
Best,
DB
Contagious and HG thank you for this explanation! Yes, I understand it’s an active exhibition of sadism of a pure psychopath.
My question is, would „inactive“ be fo example; an adult person invalidates, verbally abuse and manipulate a little child exploiting its vulnerability — is the process of crippling child’s spirit by deriving pleasure either via fuel, the sense of power, or the idea of educating the child by bending its will and spirit, physically and psychologically harming it.
Or someone working in a lab and is crippling an animal testing the effect or measure of chemical toxicity, deriving pleasure from the idea of succeeding in the professional field.
Empathy for the animal or the child would get in the way, so empathy itself must be viewed as an enemy and extinct.
I see it as a form of sadism. I don’t know how else to name it?
I feel like there are no clear videos from psychologists on the subject of narcissist vs psychopath vs both…I think that’s how I stumbled upon your work @HG. And there is nobody else who can explain it better than you. Believe me I have searched and searched for material. It can be so confusing to learn about. And I feel like you do an amazing job at conveying that psychopaths aren’t necessarily what you see on tv. my first relationship was with someone who (I didn’t know it at the time) but was diagnosed with NPD with psychopathy. Not sure what the exact terminology was but that’s basically what his mom told me. I was 14 when we met. Anybody who I met after him, even if he was disengaged, I felt like I was cheating. Like I belonged to him. I didn’t know it at the time why I had that programmed into my head. Lucky for me, I was not the girl he chose as his IPPS. It is an extremely painful experience to be in love with a person who can’t be healed. Nor does he think he needs healing and he doesn’t want to be healed. I honestly wished he were doing better in life so I can hate him. But karma hit him hard. Which is sad and scary to me. I will never not be scared of him. Not necessarily scared that he will hurt me, just scared that he will find me and fuck up my life for shits and giggles. While the whole time distracting and mesmerizing me with the dangling carrot. (Love not the one in his pants)
I dare never let him know that I am scared because that would offend his narcissism. But if I was not submissive enough then would come the fucked up mind games. And a loop of things he would say and do to keep me in my place and remind me that I was nothing and that he was everything. Without ever actually saying that. He would tell me about how violent he can be to men. And tell me about how brutal he can be. How he hated to be in the room with any other man. Which in itself put me in my place and scared me. Because in my head he was so sweet to me. But to think he could be so violent when hr was away from me frightened and really scared me into never wanting to witness it. He made me feel like I should feel lucky that someone like him would like me. It’s funny because I was in college and had been with him for 7 years (on and off) and I was taking abnormal psychology and I had diagnosed him with Antisocial Personality Disorder. But it was when he had just disengaged from me. And in the class they warned us that we might do that (start diagnosing people we knew with things as the class progressed) so I second guessed myself and chalked it up to me being hurt that he cheated on me. This was like 18 years ago before the internet was overloaded with the NPD/Empath dynamic. Trauma bonds are such a real and such a fucked up thing. I have previously considered/pondered that if the procedure done in the movie ‘Eternal Sunshine of a spotless mind’ was an actual procedure, that maybe I would get it done to erase my memory of him.
You are completely right HG about no contact regime and I find it amazing that you have the whole series on the emotional thinking and battles. Because it really doesn’t matter how much time has gone by. I underestimated the power someone could have over my mind. No matter how far removed I thought I was. Sending condolences to an ex is a huge mistake. And HG has great material on the grieving narcissist. Which I wish I would have seen sooner. He had the code memorized from years before. No matter how strong you think your mind is. Or how much time has passed, If you feel a need to contact your past, check yourself into a mental hospital STAT.
Some clarification please..
Are all Greater Narcissists psychopaths or are there Greaters who are not?
They are all narcissistic psychopaths.
HG, with that answer, it all comes together for me. I thought that what others describe as a dark triad (narcissism, psychopathy, machiavellism) is similar to how you describe Greaters. Your classification adds more clarity and color, and most importantly, the insight that they are aware of what they are. But now that I understand that Greaters are narcissistic psychopaths, I see that the classification is consistent with the dark triad. And machiavellism is, of course, built into the Greaters. Some psychologists add sadism and call it the dark tetrad, but that’s not as commonly used. Do you think sadism is a trait that all psychopaths possess, or some are just bored by pain of others and prefer to relieve boredom in other ways?
No, not all psychopaths exhibit sadism.
HG, are there narcissistic psychopaths among narcissists who are not the Greaters, for example, among the Upper Lessers? Or would those be sociopaths, as psychopaths posses charm and are socially savvy? The Greaters, as I understand your classification, have high cognitive function, but I imagine there are psychopaths who are not born with high cognitive function. If they become narcissistic psychopaths, what schools are they likely to be?
If you wait for the work on this to be provided it will give you a clear picture of all of the categorisations.
This is very definitive, HG. It’s also very interesting.
It sounds like cognitive awareness of what they are and the ’embracing’ of the emptiness within and their motivations makes the difference.
Also, there is an element of being born that way rather than made that way by a LOCE when it comes to Greaters.
One question I have about psychopathy is whether you have a categorisation system for psychopaths, similar to the system you have for narcissists (i.e. Lessers, Mid-Range and Greaters)?
I find that the gulf is wide – ever surprisingly so – between your knowledge and explanations about psychopathy and narcissism compared to that of ‘experts’ in the field of psychology.
I just have to post this because it’s a good contrast to the education we receive here and it touches on the topic of psychopathy.
Also, because the YT crowd is not very conducive to sensible discussions connected to Jordan Peterson. But, mostly because I find conversations between Piers Morgan and Jordan Peterson intensely entertaining (despite the fact I mostly avoid listening to Peterson at all – but these two together, I simply can’t pass up having a listen.)
From ‘Piers Morgan Uncensored’
https://youtu.be/eYwu14Qrimw
I can’t help laughing at Peterson’s rant (in response to a question on “Tribalism” from Morgan), starting at, roughly, 2:52 (and continuing for sometime) on online “trolls” – where he basically tars them all with the same brush.
“As we virtualize the world, we are enabling the small percentage of people – it’s usually about 3 percent of people in general populations – who use manipulation, reputation savaging, denigration and self-promotion – so the genuine psychopathic types – who dominate the social conversation and spew their poisonous and manipulative venom into the public domain…not only with no fear of being stopped and no inhibition – which is almost all applied socially – but also,while being monetized and promoted by people who run the social media channels.
And every society, forever, has had to contend with a small percentage of people who will utilize all the benefits
of society only for themselves…they contend with the fact that those people, if not brought under control, can demolish the structure of the entire society. And I think that the polarization that we’re feeling is a consequence of their untrammeled expression online. Instagram, Facebook and in online comment forums, like Twitter.”
And I l just love how he simply lumps all the characteristics of these trolls or “genuine psychopaths” together (while simultaneously taking a dig at women – but that’s a whole other discussion) :
“those who post repeatedly, say on online forums, especially in relationship to comments and you certainly see that same pattern of sadism, machiavellianism, psychopathy and narcissism characterizing the men who are also incentivized to use what used to be classic anti-social female strategies to advance themselves in the reputational hierarchy – exploiters, fundamentally.”
And then Peterson’s suggestion as to how to deal with said individuals:
The “online, cowardly, anonymous, narcissistic, pathological troll demons, who are polluting the public discourse, should be put in a different comment section and if you want to go to hell and visit the troll demons and see what they spew, you can but otherwise you can be among the normal human beings engaged in normal, civil human discourse and that would separate the bloody psychopaths from the bulk of normal, decent people.”
But the BEST part is where Piers Morgan interrupts him, after he’s gone on for sometime denigrating “psychopaths”…
JP: “Ninety-seven percent of people aren’t psychopathic, so we are talking about a small minority here, but they have the upper hand…”
PM (interrupts): “I had the psychopath test done on me actually, a lengthy questionnaire, and they concluded I was a good psychopath.”
JP: (Silence for a moment) “And what did they mean by that, exactly – do you know?”
PM (laughs loudly and states): “Apparently, I wasn’t, like, the malevolent version. It was slightly lost on me: the nuance.”
And then they go on to discuss HW and Trump – the part on HW being covered by one of HG’s previous videos.
HG – I am sure people have asked you to analyze that whole interview between Piers and Jordan – and maybe you will do in the future – so if you don’t want to post this that’s fine. But that exchange made me hyper aware of how thankful I am for the education we receive here and I look forward to more on your “Knowing the Psychopath” writings.
You are welcome.
WhoCares, thank you for sharing that info. So Piers is a “psychopath”? Bet he would have added, “but, I’m not a narcissist” 😉
Hahaha!
Asp Emp I had to stifle my laughter at that – I am waiting to attend court (as a support for a friend) – but, thanks for the chuckle.
Hi WhoCares, good that you were there for your friend 🙂 Yes, sometimes reading comments in public waiting areas can be difficult to stifle laughing out loud, as I did at one place, I apologised to the couple that looked up at me and they were ok about it and smiled at me as if it was really ok. 🙂
Asp Emp – I could have used some humour throughout that day and the next. I endured a mind-numbing, monotone Midrange lawyer drone on and on and ON (for 2 days) while reading documents that already had been before the courts, in one shape or another, and then asking questions about the content in ways that just reframed them slightly so it was actually like asking the same question 3 or 4 times…I have never had the privilege of listening to such a boring lawyer…and the only thing I can say is he was really good at wearing down the witness. Thank goodness I wasn’t on the receiving end of that.
It also gives me renewed appreciation for my own no contact in my personal situation.
WhoCares, oh dearie me, 2 days?! And to think how much that MRN lawyer would be earning! Being an observer can give you a different perspective on your own situation. I am glad yours has been sorted out 🙂
“WhoCares, oh dearie me, 2 days?! And to think how much that MRN lawyer would be earning! Being an observer can give you a different perspective on your own situation. I am glad yours has been sorted out 🙂”
Asp Emp,
It was 3 days…(I could only commit to 2 of them)…and he’s not done! But now he doesn’t get to continue his cross examination until nearly next year.
Honestly though, despite his droning on and on being deadly dull (I even observed the judge’s eyelids slowly lowering, more than once, before he caught himself) – I still find it fascinating, and a hands-on learning experience, watching how he reacts to the opposing lawyer, the judge or when my friend (on the stand) doesn’t answer his questions the way he wants her to. I don’t watch my friend’s ex at all, as per HG’s instruction about court attendance with a narcissist. But, his mid-range lawyer is too good an educational opportunity to pass up…and I should be clear, I don’t have NDC confirmation that he is a midrange narc…only that both my friend and I follow HG’s work and have witnessed multiple indicators and manipulations on his part.
Oh, and regarding lawyer fees – yes, it’s amazing (yet typical) how a lesser can find the funds to pay his lawyer in retaliation against a former IPPS, but can’t consistently pay child support.
Dearest Who Cares,
Couldn’t have been more boring than listening to the very unprofessionally orchestrated Paltrow debacle.
Remind me not to buy a baby blue suit with shoulder pads and to always carry Sudafed in case I get the sniffles 🤧
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Ps I’ve listened to Peterson on many occasions. I find him some of his views interesting however he loves to hear his own voice and he’s too monotonal for me……goes on forever. 🥱
Piers, I don’t mind, to a point, however, I hate the way he interrupts his guests with his self opinionated assertive views and doesn’t look at both sides constructively and respectfully. He has to always be right haha. I do like his tirade on HnM 🤣
I recently came across Peter Crone, The Mind Architect… very interesting!
I’m also listening to Jefferson Fisher a personal injury lawyer …he has some good standard advice as well.
Peterson sounds like Kermit the Frog.
Haha.
Bubbles,
Thanks for input.
“Couldn’t have been more boring than listening to the very unprofessionally orchestrated Paltrow debacle.”
Ha! I thought the “unprofessionally orchestrated” part WAS the entertainment factor – that, along with Paltrow’s weird and uncomfortable assortment of facial expressions – which I could only tolerate a bit of, and only so I had some context for HG’s educational commentary on the ski trial.
I agree with you both on Peterson loving the sound of his own voice and Morgan talking over people! But if I had to listen to one of them on repeat, I would choose Piers Morgan – his behaviour can be atrocious at times but I actually like that he’s straightforward and unapologetic. And I doubt you will ever catch Piers tearing up and looking straight into the camera to engender sympathy from his audience.
“I recently came across Peter Crone, The Mind Architect… very interesting!
I’m also listening to Jefferson Fisher a personal injury lawyer …he has some good standard advice as well.”
I may well have to look those guys up…
Dear Mr Tudor,
You nailed it perfectly (as you do) hehe
Thank you 🐸
🤣
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Anyone like Russel Brand? HG?
No.
Dearest Who Cares,
Yes, I definitely prefer animated Piers over boring Peterson ….Kermit sounds like he has a frog in his froat 😂🤣😂🤣
Paltrow’s thin lips were doing a dance all of their own haha
She looked like Jeffrey Dahmer’s sister with those glasses 🤓
What was with her yellow hair ???? 🤣
Can wait for Sanderson to appeal…hilarious
Naturally everyone has their own personal favourites, I like listening to Dan Wootten, Megyn Kelly and Candice Owens. One person I very much like and admire is Simon Sinek, he appears very sincere, genuine and makes sense. Aussie motivational speakers, Kerwin Rae and Vinh Giang are another two I follow. I’m always looking to do better.
Guess it’s all eyes on Trump now 😈
😂
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Haha Bubbles – “Paltrow’s thin lips were doing a dance all of their own”
That’s a great way to describe them – definitely were incongruous to the rest of her face.
WC, Interesting commentary on JP and his discussion with Piers Morgan.
There are points with which agree and ones with which I disagree.
Firstly, I disagree that there is a lack of sensible discussion when it comes to those who comment on his YT videos. For the most part there is a thankfulness expressed from those whose lives he has helped to move forward in a positive way and a gratefulness for the insight he helps to provide. He would not be so popular is he didn’t have something worthwhile to say, even if you don’t agree with him. There are also many women who are appreciative of his work, though some try to paint him as a misogynist in the bigger picture. It’s a perspective I don’t agree with, and hold to his work being valuable for both men and women.
The sentiment around trolls I found to be somewhat out of character, and from my perspective comes from a sense of woundedness at the onslaught he has also suffered online. It’s an area where I think he needs to take a step back from his personal hurt or injury as enjoining in the online world means that is one of the consequences. You cannot put yourself out there the way Peterson has done and not expect pushback in this current age. I’m sure a lot of that is unpalatable, but it’s a reality that needs to be confronted. I’m not sure the answer is to call these people out as psychopaths. It’s name calling that is below the standard I would expect. Besides, an element of moderation on any online forum should assist with that. I would not focus on the trolls in order to get my point across.
He’s probably right to question Piers Morgan on what the notion of a “good psychopath” means. HG has Piers marked as a narcissist, but I don’t think a psychopath. What does that mean regarding the lengthy questionnaire Piers completed? What does it mean in light of the discussion? It seems Piers could be marked as being an online troll and placed in the category JP is highlighting. It adds a twist to the discussion which really highlights the difficulty in trying to separate these people out. The idea that all trolls can be lumped into that percentage category is a little disingenuous. Someone might just be having a bad day, emotional thinking might have taken them over, perhaps a simple disagreement could be read as trolling. It’s a lot more nuanced than Peterson has indicated, at least in my opinion.
In this instance, I think a lack of objectivity has impacted the discussion you have outlined.
Hello LET,
Thank-you for sharing your views.
“Firstly, I disagree that there is a lack of sensible discussion when it comes to those who comment on his YT videos.”
I did hesitate over my decision to use the word “sensible” – and perhaps I could have selected something different, but I didn’t want to labour over the word choice.
“For the most part there is a thankfulness expressed from those whose lives he has helped to move forward in a positive way and a gratefulness for the insight he helps to provide.”
Yes, I have noticed this thankfulness and gratitude.
“He would not be so popular is he didn’t have something worthwhile to say, even if you don’t agree with him.”
I actually did not say whether I feel he has something worthwhile to say or if I agree with him or not. However, I would expect him to have a more refined understanding of psychopathy (given who he is and his educational background) and a more professional definition or description of such individuals in lieu of “online, cowardly, anonymous, narcissistic, pathological troll demons”…as you said, it’s more or less name calling.
“There are also many women who are appreciative of his work, though some try to paint him as a misogynist in the bigger picture. It’s a perspective I don’t agree with, and hold to his work being valuable for both men and women.”
Yes, I have seen that both men and women are appreciative of his work.
Regarding “trolls”, I agree with you that “an element of moderation on any online forum should assist with that.” But Jordan Peterson’s view of how these “trolls” should be dealt with seemed pretty naive and, although I didn’t include it in my quotation, he said the division of the comment sections should be based on those who use their public names vs. those who post anonymously, which actually makes me question his intelligence.
“In this instance, I think a lack of objectivity has impacted the discussion you have outlined.”
I agree with you.
The biggest issue I have with JP, and discussions surrounding him, is commentary on his apparent empathy – specifically the over the top ones about him being such an empathetic and compassionate individual – I think those assessments of him lack objectivity.
WhoCares, thank you for sharing more of your thoughts.
I appreciate the further quotation around “trolls” and agree with your assessment of trying to create a separate section for ‘anonymous’ commenters or contributors. That is very naieve, considering some issues require an element of anonymity in order to facilitate discussion and ensure safety. I’m a little incredulous he didn’t consider that aspect of anonymity and think his reasoning may be to allow for more civil discourse – if people can’t remain anonymous then they are less likely to say things that could have a negative impact. He wants to call people out who he thinks hide behind that option when he doesn’t have the same choice. JP must face the onslaught directed at him and be answerable for what he says, unlike some others in the online world.
Jordan Peterson posted some videos at Halloween last year that had a very dark storytelling element to them. I couldn’t really appreciate them, but they were poems I think he had written which possibly reflected the darker experiences of the people he treats. There are moments where I sense him struggling with a darker side in life or in himself. I think some people hold him up as a saviour when he really is just a man. It’s a huge burden for anyone to carry. At the same time, many people, especially men, feel like they are drowning in the current world and JP is the lifeline that they need. I’ve read multiple comments from people on the edge of suicide, drug addicted, feeling their lives were worthless, lacking motivation, seeing no future, who were able to take hold of that lifeline.
I believe he struggles at times, but is sincere.
Hi LET,
Thank you, I appreciate your reply, I am never quite sure about jumping into other people’s conversations. I am not a fan of piers, and definitely Keep an open mind when watching any of his reports / interviews.
I actually came across one of the core videos that helped me a great deal when I left the narcissist. I would replay it when I had an urge to reach out to him, to see if he was ok. Which is ridiculous empathy considering what he did to me across time. I was kind of numb to most of my internal senses but the emptiness felt similar to heartache/ loss of my illusion of him. Anyway this is a short clip of one of JPs lectures from the biblical series I think. It helped to remind me that I could not help the narcissist, that he is lost in his own illusion and coping mechanism. I guess this was one of the key clips that helped me hold back and refocus on my own recovery. I hope it is ok to add the link as only a short clip?
LET,
I am aware that some view Peterson as a “lifeline” and feel that his work helped turn their life around. But I also know of an Upper Lesser Type B who likes to triangulate with Jordan Peterson’s work, quoting from the “12 rules”…does he actually apply these rules in his life? No. He is simply spouting the words, engaging in trait acquisition and then lauding it over others.
Hi WhoCares,
The issue of triangulation will always arise with narcissists, and it’s through no fault of Peterson’s that his work is sometimes used for less worthy purposes. I’m sure that’s a danger for any author. He’s given more than enough lectures and presented more than enough talks to help explain his position. He’s been interviewed multiple times. People will take from his work what they will and he has no control over that. To uphold men in our current society is not a crime, and a badly needed tonic as far as I’m concerned. Men are being emasculated at an alarming rate.
LET,
“To uphold men in our current society is not a crime, and a badly needed tonic as far as I’m concerned. Men are being emasculated at an alarming rate.”
I don’t dispute this. I feel like society fails men in a lot of ways and have discussed this elsewhere in the past.
I watched my father be on the receiving end of abuse by my mother for more than 2 decades, I unwittingly helped him escape, then I watched him be ensnared again by an even nastier narcissist and he died while still in that relationship. Although, I didn’t understand any of this at time and can only see the impact it had on him as a consequence of my education here.
Growing up, within my extended family on the maternal side, males were viewed as pretty much useless and basically second class citizens. This view was mostly perpetuated by my maternal grandmother who “ruled the roost” until she died. I chalked up her attitude towards the male species due to her negative experiences with men. But now I can see that she was a narcissist and all the men in her life were the direct cause her ill fortune – of course! Actually, I can see now that there was a succession of female narcissists on that side of the family: my great-grandmother, my grandmother and my mother. I could never understand how jaded they all appeared to be towards men – and I could never accept that all men were how they portrayed them to be.
When I shared with my grandmother that I was pregnant with a boy – she had a one word comment: “Disgusting.” And then she proceeded to ridicule my ex on, “Why couldn’t he make a girl?!”
Needless to say, part of the reason I moved away with my narcissist was to distance myself from my maternal family members – as I didn’t want my son growing up being exposed to the attitude that he was a blight on the earth simply because he was born male.
On a similar note, despite having accessed services due to being in a relationship with an abusive male partner, I have always questioned, from day one, why there are not similar services for men trying to protect themselves from an abusive partner and I acknowledge that I have benefited from such services simply by virtue of being female.
There are a lot gaps in society regarding supports for men – young or otherwise.
Do I think Peterson’s work helps address this gap? Yes.
Would I have an issue if my son, someday, discovered Peterson’s work and drew some benefit from it? No.
Do I think that Peterson engages in his work from a position of sincerity, however?
No, I don’t.
Hi EveBea, just saw your response. Sorry if there was any delay.
I like Piers stand on free speech. He has me there. I also appreciate the fact that he’s been willing to put his neck out with regards to Harry’s wife. He’s been very outspoken about her in a manner that allows others to feel validated in their opinion of her as well. Of course, HG outdoes him in every respect by explaining her narcissism which underlies everything we see. Some might have her pegged as a narcissist, but no one else can give the detailed explanations of HG.
I appreciate him allowing you to post that clip, and it’s a conclusion I’ve come to in my own life, i.e. “Don’t cast your pearls before swine.”
Peterson describes it as harsh, but it is realistic. Some people will not want what you have to offer and are best left to themselves as you go about your business. It’s salutary wisdom, from “on high” no less.
The thing he did get wrong is the other New Testament story with regards to “Let the dead bury the dead.” Once again it is harsh, but it relates to the call to follow Christ – the challenge to leave everything else behind in order to do so. It is not a matter of walking away from someone who is lost (although the dead could be counted as ‘lost’ in some way). His interpretation here is slightly off in the context of the Scripture he is quoting.
I’m very glad you shared the clip and it has helped you on your journey. It is true, the narcissist is lost and we are best to cut our losses when it comes to the narcissist. It’s a helpful reminder to know that we really are casting our pearls before swine when we engage with them and allow them to influence us.
LET,
“I appreciate the further quotation around “trolls” and agree with your assessment of trying to create a separate section for ‘anonymous’ commenters or contributors. That is very naieve, considering some issues require an element of anonymity in order to facilitate discussion and ensure safety.”
I agree with the issue of safety surrounding anonymity.
“I’m a little incredulous he didn’t consider that aspect of anonymity and think his reasoning may be to allow for more civil discourse – if people can’t remain anonymous then they are less likely to say things that could have a negative impact.”
I agree here – the choice to not utilize anonymity isn’t a reason to presume that someone won’t engage in trolling or harassing online behaviours – a Mid-range narcissist may well use their actual name and still do so. It’s also naieve of Peterson to suggest that claiming one’s public identity is synonymous with accountability.
“…many people, especially men, feel like they are drowning in the current world and JP is the lifeline that they need. I’ve read multiple comments from people on the edge of suicide, drug addicted, feeling their lives were worthless, lacking motivation, seeing no future, who were able to take hold of that lifeline.”
I didn’t say that Peterson does not do anything good for people.
“I believe he struggles at times, but is sincere.”
This is where we differ – I do not believe that the good that Peterson does in the world comes from a place of sincerity.
WhoCares, first off I have to say thank you for sharing such a difficult part of your family history here. I’m sure I’m not the only one who can appreciate the intensity of that experience over a number of generations. Your father unwittingly stepped into what amounted to a viper’s nest from a male perspective and sadly his escape (well done on your attempt to help him) did not garner him a better outcome. Sounds like an empath who was possibly impacted by childhood experiences as well. I’m sure the empathic element and addiction goes back generations, too.
It hurt my heart to read of your grandmothers response to the news you were having a boy and her damning comment around that – “why couldn’t he be a girl?” You really did effect a rescue for your son in moving away from your family in the circumstances.
Hearing your story makes me wonder how much of a narcissistic dynamic is being played out around discussions of ‘toxic masculinity’ and masculinity in general these days. There is an element of ‘shaming’ men that deeply concerns me, and your comment around not wanting your son to feel like a blight on the earth probably sums it up for me. Men are being damned for just being men, not living up to women’s expectations, and ultimately shamed for the simple fact they exist. If that sounds like your grandmother’s perspective on men, that’s what I think it is. My sense is they can’t escape the sense of shame they are expected to feel for being what they are, and are required to contort themselves into something else to satisfy current beliefs. Only this requirement can never be satisfied.
Your comment on services provided to men is a very honest and insightful one, even though it’s more often women who are impacted in this way. There was a very dramatic case in the UK recently where a man exposed to very abusive and controlling behaviour by his wife for decades was finally freed from that relationship with her exposure and sentencing to prison. Both sexes can be subject to abuse, men less likely to admit it if it’s happening to them, which probably skews some of the statistics. There is a balance to be found here that doesn’t involve shaming men, but allows for the protection of women, and which also acknowledges sometimes men are the ones in need of protection. Women have also suffered the experience of shaming in the past and it seems the pendulum has not yet found the balance. I think Peterson is one person who is attempting to help find that balance without the toxicity of some others who have what I would call a more ‘knee jerk’ reaction that facilitates more negative stereotypes.
I’m not sure why you don’t believe Peterson is sincere. We have very different responses to him in that respect.
Once again, WC, thank you for your courage in sharing that very difficult part of your story. I applaud you for your honesty and insight.
LET,
Thank-you for your thoughtful comment. Regarding my family history, it really doesn’t trouble me any – I only shared to illustrate my awareness of how men are viewed by some.
My grandmother’s response to my news at the time did not really come as a surprise to me…merely, a confirmation of who she was. She never played a significant part in my son’s life (he only met her as a baby once or twice – while she was still alive – so he has no recollection of his great-grandmother) and, yes, he has been protected from those negative views of men.
I think your observations on toxic masculinity and men-shaming are insightful and this issue is something that keep in mind since I am raising a young male.
Thank-you for sharing re: the case of a male abuse victim in the UK – are you referring to Alex Skeel? I actually just watched the documentary on his story the other day because it was recommended by NarcAngel in discussion elsewhere on the blog – what a horrendous story of abuse, in general, but also a very good example demonstrating that it can happen to men as well.
Thank-you also for your last paragraph. 💜
WhoCares, thanks for your further comment, and I see we share similar thoughts and feelings around raising young men in the current age. Mine is a young adult now and lacked a good role model in his father – the absence of men in children’s lives is also having an impact, I believe – so there is the double edged sword of men being present as well as good role models. Having an abusive male in the household could only prove detrimental from my perspective.
I think one of the things we are acknowledging is that women can be abusive, too, and that is clear from all the narcissistic mothers being commented on here and elsewhere. The case I mentioned was a more recent one and this article will give the details:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11790319/Prison-reform-boss-subjected-husband-15-years-abuse-jailed-four-years.html
The Alex Skeel tale is another horrific one, and I think it’s the situation men find themselves in at times where they know they can’t ‘retaliate’, as in they are stronger and could inflict greater harm, while at the same time being unable to walk away believing they are responsible or deserving of the abuse. Men can be subject to the coercive and controlling behaviour of women as well. I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a narcissistic mother in the background somewhere, too.
Once again, I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts on the topic which has helped me express some of my own concerns, too. I’ve definitely benefited from your courage <3 I think you son will, too.
LET,
“the absence of men in children’s lives is also having an impact, I believe – so there is the double edged sword of men being present as well as good role models. Having an abusive male in the household could only prove detrimental from my perspective.”
This is a huge issue that I absolutely see playing out with my son, and of course, I agree that the solution isn’t too allow that gap to be filled by an abusive male. But there are those who truly believe that it’s better to have some kind of male role model compared to none at all. This is part of my issue with various services for families – for example, many of the professionals, who work with the program that provided supervised access between my son and his father, fully buy into the value of a child having some form of relationship with a parent that was abusive towards the other parent. But, in our case, they would witness the father-son interaction under limited circumstances and are there fueling the interaction themselves (when supervising visitations) therefore, the narcissist parent would likely be on better behaviour…and while it’s performative, it still looks like very loving behaviour towards the child from the perspective of those are uneducated about narcissism.
Re: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11790319/Prison-reform-boss-subjected-husband-15-years-abuse-jailed-four-years.html
Yes! The Prison Boss – I should have guessed. I am aware of that due to HG’s excellent coverage of it on YT.
“Men can be subject to the coercive and controlling behaviour of women as well. I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a narcissistic mother in the background somewhere, too.”
Absolutely!
I think my father’s mother may have been a narcissist, actually (which would explain a lot – I believe my father would have had a similar empathic make-up to me, only a higher percentage of co-dependent)…I would have to sit and gather information about her to be certain. What I recall about her is very limited. I don’t know anything about my paternal grandfather, he died before I was born, but it’s possible my dad had at least one narcissist parent.
And I know how controlling both my mother was (a confirmed mid-range narcissist) and my father’s second spouse was. Knowing what I know now, his second wife was likely a LMRN, possibly of the Victim cadre – but she was definitely a nasty piece of work.
I feel like I am all over map in this thread LET – it started with Peterson and psychopathy! But thank-you for the discussion ❤️ and for sharing your thoughts and opinions.
WhoCares <3
We have wandered about a bit on this thread, but I think somehow it's all connected and leading us back to where we started – or at least to the point of the trajectory with regard to Jordan Peterson and commentary on psychopaths. In some ways, it partly comes back to the fact you would let your son read Peterson's books and attend his talks. I took my son (at age 18) to see Peterson speak. I was one of the few women in the audience. It was filled with young men for the most part crying out for hope in this current world. The sight of that audience told me everything I needed to know.
Controversy is currently being writ large across the world at the rise of transgenderism invading both men's and women's spaces. Bud Light will take a hit like Gillette took a hit previously, Nike is likely to take one, too, from the female perspective. The mockery inherent in actions being taken by companies should rightly see them go broke. There is a rightful place for both manhood and womanhood. We complement eachother. That also entails respecting one another and our differences. There is a definite need for good role modeling around that.
You have been able to provide an example of a classic dilemma around role modeling where parental rights come into conflict with children's well being. The notion that an abusive relationship that exists between parent's somehow does not make the abusive parent unsuitable for contact with their child is in some ways ludicrous. Even supervised contact, as you describe, can 'enable' an abusive parent as during that limited time period they can present a well managed facade causing workers to be none the wiser, possibly leading to less restrictive time spent with the parent.
I didn't realise HG had loaded videos to do with "Prison Boss" case, but they were very insightful. Thanks for giving me a heads up on those. If we take the scenario where the prison boss mother is eventually – or even currently – allowed access to her children, what is the likelihood that her narcissism is going to affect them in an abusive manner the way it did her ex-husband? I'd say there's a strong possibility that regardless of her rights as a parent, she will be damaging to her children. Parental rights can outstrip children's rights to their detriment in these circumstances. The system badly needs to recognise the element of narcissism and its intransigence when making decisions, especially those affecting children.
Your father certainly sounds like he was an empath with an addiction to narcissists, and like many of us that addiction can lead us off a cliff more than once as we try to navigate the world, especially if we've already been groomed by a narcissistic parent. Maybe you will never know when it comes to your dad, but I imagine chances would be high. We break the mould when we break away from the narcissist, whether it's parent or partner, and hopefully give our children a much better chance to remain out of the narcissist's grasp.
Whether it's men or women, the issue of narcissism seems to be at the heart of so much that has us teetering on the edge these days.
And then there is Andrew Tate…no problem guessing his psyche.
Interesting, Contagious, that you’ve mentioned Andrew Tate in relation to a discussion on Peterson.
I don’t know for sure if Tate has psychopathy in addition to narcissism but I couldn’t help noticing (when HG did his videos on Tate) that, similarly, Peterson targets/appeals to a particular niche of the male population that is looking for direction. There may even be potential significant overlap, like with incels.
Hi, I hope you don’t mind me jumping in. As I have watched hours upon hours of JP. He has covered psychopathy really well in his personality lectures, all online from as far back as 8/9 years ago, I think a lot of the earlier ones were Harvard based. I think in the context of the piers Morgan conversation he, did not frame it in an educational sense, but within the context of the conversations , which he certainly used judgemental language within.
I believe it to be something that the media has pushed re – his appeal to mainly young men, if based on his appeal on YouTube in the earlier years, that may have been more associated with the percentages of male versus female users of YouTube being disproportionately male. I think his recent tour showed a really good mix of sexes and all walks of life in the crowds.
With a YouTube subscription of 6.5M I think he is doing ok, and many value his work.
I have read maps of meaning, and both of this 12 rules books. I read the later as I was going through the earlier years post escape/ ending my relationship with the narcissist. JP helped me to see a lot within my own psyche and personality. I value his work. I think I have watched all of his lectures on YouTube. I do not agree with all he has expressed in most recent years, but as he would say. I “don’t throw out the baby with the bath water” and I know it is ok for me to still like and appreciate him without, being in complete agreement with him. Just additional thoughts to add to the conversation.
Hi EveBea, I dip in and out of Peterson’s work depending on the topic and generally find it interesting and educational. It’s interesting to see him interview other high profile people, although in this case it was Piers Morgan interviewing him. Piers has what can amount to an annoying interview style, in that he cuts over those he’s interviewing and also likes to throw in clickbait opportunities for further headlines. In that sense, he is a bit of a troll. I watched him interview Richard Dawkins the other day and the discussion about trolls also came up there with agreement they are a problem. Dawkins was very careful to not let Piers draw him out on particular topics or feeling pressured to give him more than he was prepared to give. JP may have felt he had an ally in Piers, but being the narcissist Piers is – or maybe he is a psychopath – he behaved much like the scorpion who climbed on the frog’s back to cross the river.
Anyway, glad you joined the conversation.
Dawkin’s and Morgan’s perspectives were both interesting actually. Dawkins mentioned a complexity which we can’t understand and there is no point giving it limiting ideas and I agree with that and most of his views and logic. What came up after the belief topic was even more interesting.. I liked the questions.
Hello Eve Bea,
“Hi, I hope you don’t mind me jumping in. As I have watched hours upon hours of JP. He has covered psychopathy really well in his personality lectures, all online from as far back as 8/9 years ago, I think a lot of the earlier ones were Harvard based.”
Thank-you Eve Bea for offering your insights, especially given that you have extensive exposure to Peterson’s lectures.
“I think in the context of the piers Morgan conversation he, did not frame it in an educational sense, but within the context of the conversations , which he certainly used judgemental language within.”
Yes, this is partly why I found the exchange between Piers and Jordan interesting – especially given Peterson’s academic background and apparent care for the precision of language…comes off as a bit contradictory to my mind.
“I believe it to be something that the media has pushed re – his appeal to mainly young men, if based on his appeal on YouTube in the earlier years, that may have been more associated with the percentages of male versus female users of YouTube being disproportionately male.”
Peterson is definitely a money-maker with regard to certain demographics of the population – and I agree that, in general, men seem to gravitate towards YT and be more visible and vocal there, compared to other social media platforms – at least when I consider HG’s various platforms and the commenters on them (I don’t really comment or take part in discussions outside of those.) It makes sense that Peterson would have targeted a particular niche on social media – any discerning business person who has an online brand would have.
“I think his recent tour showed a really good mix of sexes and all walks of life in the crowds. With a YouTube subscription of 6.5M I think he is doing ok, and many value his work.”
It’s great that he now has a more broad appeal.
Numbers on YouTube don’t really mean anything to me, personally, given some of the schlock that YT puts out. But, yes, his readership does indicate that his work has value in the eyes of many.
“I have read maps of meaning, and both of this 12 rules books. I read the later as I was going through the earlier years post escape/ ending my relationship with the narcissist. JP helped me to see a lot within my own psyche and personality. I value his work. I think I have watched all of his lectures on YouTube. I do not agree with all he has expressed in most recent years, but as he would say. I “don’t throw out the baby with the bath water” and I know it is ok for me to still like and appreciate him without, being in complete agreement with him. Just additional thoughts to add to the conversation.”
I am glad you have found JP’s work helpful in your life, Eve Bea.
I may very well have felt differently about him had I encountered his work before my Narcsite education.
Pre-Narcsite, I felt differently about a lot of issues and individuals.
Thanks for adding your thoughts to the discussion.
Sorry to randomly chime in, but does nobody else get the feeling that Peterson is full of shit? He seems to regurgitate a lot of other peoples work when he’s not busy publicly crying like a middle mid-ranger. Am I totally off or is he a narcissist? Has HG ever addressed it?
I agree with some of his opinions but he just seems like a wolf in sheep’s clothing pandering to his vulnerable supporters to me.
Hello Victorious,
No need to apologize for chiming in.
“Am I totally off or is he a narcissist? Has HG ever addressed it?”
HG has never addressed this, to my awareness – at least not on the blog, nor in YT land.
The most I know is that HG has said that Peterson is an ” interesting character.”
WhoCares, laughing…..”YT land”.
Agreed. Most love Trump, Tate and Peterson. Why? There are a lot of men who feel disenfranchised who are not a part of any group. No metoo. Some are good guys but are angry because of the economy today and feel labeled in a group of men wrong doers. So they seek out t hose who validate young men often just men. Some really good guys just want validation for being men. Others… not the case at all…
“Some really good guys just want validation for being men.” Good point.
Snakes, commenting on other snakes and the pit which they are all in, and vying for control of, is rather like an SNL skit. Funny though, only until you realize that a great many others are not in on the joke and are increasingly embracing Peterson as a true visionary and leader rather than a danger.
I am sick of labels
What the hell is a psychopath? Really? Who fits neatly into a box?
Who are we to judge what is good and bad?
If you see Genesis, apparently Adam & Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Good or evil, depends which society you live in
Depends on their moral compass
Depends on perception.
Do we judge animals who consume their children out of fear? An apparently natural reaction to fear?
Are there vegetarian lions? Seriously
Does a lion care about it’s prey?
We base our society on morals depending upon the status quo
Some countries have the death penalty some do not
Moral outrage. What is right and wrong?
Truth is relative.
Anna: a psychopath has a brain wired differently. No conscience. Unless you don’t know right from wrong, he does not emotionally. As a child he is likely to torture pets. I heard of one putting cats in microwaves when I was as young but this guy became a rapist so in his teens. I think it is safe to say good does not rape, kill, torture at least….
Not all criminals and rapists are psychopaths.
Some psychopaths never commit crimes.
Not all sadists are psychopaths.
Not all psychopaths are evil.
The indifference for humane life sprung from the psychopaths only and have permeated the society in every aspect of life. And humans are not “predators by their very nature”! Legalized forms of sadism became acceptable and you’re blinded to this fact, because there is almost no other option to see through it, as you were educated to accept it.
Let me give you an example.
Readers who are new to the blog or been here for a while and remain sad that HG don’t do happy or feel as you – reflect on your good intentions for a moment. You are invalidating his whole life experience, placing yourself above him, not realizing it. Some of you think (unconsciously) that your fate is better and you’re better off than him. You couldn’t be more blind.
Painful is for sure the past and the fact a child was thrust into a traumatising environment and was massively hurt and couldn’t protect himself and nobody helped him. The only one who helped him was he himself. He coped and he thrived, along the consequences based on the coping which was optioned. Became a „bad man doing a good job“! who is honest about the essence of himself, not sugarcoating what he and his kind is, and helping us understand.
Yet if you are serious about feeling sad and have lots of free time – look at the consequences you may produce in your own life. The little choices you make, from what you buy to what you eat, to what you support, where your attention goes and whose checks you pay. To how much cruelty and injustice do you contribute by your own choices and whose worlds do you effect or destroy indirectly and who is suffering from that? — you end up by children, the silent and those who can’t protect or fight for themselves; from animal, nature to human life. The (unaware) ignorance you may apply to your own (happy) survival and justification without realizing where your part contributes to what makes you sad in the first place and create a sad, repetitive world we live in, in total. The circle begin and end with you. Despite your arrival in a cruel, unjust world you may become equipped to change it, yet not by blinded kindness in order to justify your „looking away“ and hiding from yourself by pitying the one who don’t experience your inverted „happy“ yet chances are high – do more active good on a bigger scale, than you (?).
Coldness and indifference never was and never will be a form of evolution, it’s the opposite. If you’re an empath and state „Humans are predators by their very nature.“ shows the capacity for this illness to have permeated your nature to its core. You were thrust in to this idea bit by bit until you believe and support it. We don’t kill for land, for resources! There is no need for it to begin with because the planet is beyond rich in everything! Humans are part of game playing of those who DON’T CARE and the article above is perfect in explaining it.
Unfortunately the reality is greed. During by Covid most countries including the USA saw 10% of corporate wealth being placed in the 1% and land. Most don’t get that banks are private families not mega corporations owned by many. Most CEOs are psychopaths. If they aren’t born there they get there by no good means. Communism was a joke look at China. Russia. It’s dictatorship or others like the USA feigned capitalism of a real dictatorship. Capitalist societies have a greater chance. Socialist societies are the same. Puppets of industry govern the world. The internet ousted it. We know. But in my opinion we are better housed and FED. World hunger has plummeted. That is the good news I think but…obesity is killing now. Drugs are killing now. So we don’t put heads on pikes. We aren’t hungry. We got fat on processed food and medicated on drugs. The closest chance to over throw is the USA as we are an armed country ready to fight. There are militias armed everywhere. It could happen. Almost did during Covid.. Iran is amazing. The women there risk death everyday. The more you press, history shows the more the chances of a turnover… but who takes over? It seems to replay. I think Mother Nature who has no financial backers will see this out. We have angered her.
Wow wow wow!!! C, have you watched it, check this out! This video exactly!!! Thank you HG!!!
Oh yes, this is it, right here.
Contagious – world hunger is increasing drastically!
This is why I hate modern food culture (fancy food, molecular gastronomy and all that crap) and product waste.
I buy and organize my kitchen so that I don’t throw anything away. We don’t open everything we want at the moment, but we eat them one by one – with expiration dates.
I think and plan when shopping, and I don’t throw everything in the basket.
What hurts me the most is throwing away meat and sausages. Some animal lost its life – so that unconcerned people would throw, for example, ham in the trash?
Unfortunately, I can’t give up meat. I even like raw meat and blood products.
Although vegan dishes are healthy and delicious!!! My sister has been a vegan for many years and gave birth to four healthy children.
So at least I try not to waste products. So at least I try use every crumb, every part of meat, vegetables and fruits.
Joa: you are right. I am corrected. Th world has food scarcity. Thank you! I was reading a USA article.
I love in America and I do this also. My narc mom throws food away right and left, complains that she has no money and is overweight. It drives me crazy.
Haha, I live in America…
Jordyguin I agree with you but I disagree with your opinion… 99% could not change it. Most good people are just putting one foot in front of the other and trying to survive everywhere on this earth. Feeding hand to mouth. I read those in USA with the cost of living… 30% who make 250,000 a year live paycheck to paycheck. Ok bigger mortgage. . I have been to 38 countries. Most people are bewildered at what’s going on or angered about it. . No plan to stop it but they try in their little world. Kindness. Yes there are some armed and ready waiting for the next trigger to change things… at least in the USA and not all may be the good guys. My point is psychopaths are a small percent but in politics and wealth and CEOs. Who are suspected to be 1 in 4. A great percent. So in history… the starved, the landless over threw them. Now you have McDonald’s, the far, the drugged…the social media watchers, the gamers…ummm and AI is next. All of he distractions and addictions. But most countries aren’t so repressed… Iran or they are too repressed like China or North Korea to rebel. But it is my opinion Mother Nature is going to throw a curve ball… change will come then as the playing field will open.
C, yes, I see it like you as well. If you’re traveling all this countries and see it with your own eyes, is of course the best prove of how it really is.
I don’t understand the number split of psychopaths, narcs and the others. Is it 50:50 or..? And who has the power in reality??
Well, the video above your comment I just shared, take a look!
Agree here Contagious, when resources become scarce, all hell will break loose.
I thought this was brilliantly done. Listen to the intonation in Julia’s voice.
https://youtu.be/WmVLcj-XKnM
Xx
Jordyguin,
You are right on in so much of this comment, I also agree with Contagious’ assessment. Fascinating conversation, the picture is so much bigger than our emotions over another person’s emotions. And we must become cold to them, in a sense, in order to contract them in our lives. For me this has included changing a number of things. Your second paragraph is extremely insightful. And most humans are not predators by their nature, if we were, who would be the prey? No, I do not prey on narcs to have one. They seek me out and lie about what they are until they have trapped me. No, we are not all predators.
Counteract** them in our lives…
Dear Mr Tudor,
Makes me question what kind of people ran DuPont (manufacturers of Teflon) and other similar corporations. If anyone is interested, Dark Waters is on Netflix. True story of this huge chemical company dumping toxic chemical waste knowingly. They are today worth billions.
What an absolute joke!
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Hey Bubbles that shit has to go somewhere to ensure those pans are non-stick
HG,
My brother used to work there as a security guard. The company my dad worked for, was one of the contractors for DuPont. It’s a small world, indeed.
Dearest Rebecca,
It is a small world isn’t it ?
Our son was a security guard for a time, boy, some of the stories he could tell would make your hair curl.
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Hi Bubbles xx
😂 I’m sure those stories are good ones too, maybe worthy of a camp fire and some roasted , on fire, marshmallows! 😂
My brother didn’t work there for long, he wouldn’t or couldn’t keep a job, even when he got his CDL license. He’d drive the trucks, no problem, even wanted me to go on a trip with him a few times. I didn’t go because I had a daily job I had to work at , plus I knew his almost constant talking would get on my nerves….He got fired from a lot of trucking jobs because he wouldn’t make the delivery on time. Most likely, he was busy talking to some stranger he just met and lost track of time. He’d talk to anyone, about anything and wouldn’t get the hint, when the person wanted to leave, he’d keep on talking and talking. Sorry, went on chatting there myself. 😂 xx Anyway, it’s a small world, indeed.
Dear Mr Tudor,
You’re quite correct, however, I use olive oil hehe
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
DuPont’s Teflon story is just another story from time immemorial .. Money is King .. corruption, falsification and subversion. I am pretty sure most normal humans would have been more than happy to live without PFOA-C8 (unsafe non-stick cooking pans shit) if they knew it meant disease, destruction and death for others.
Dearest TBS,
Well said, couldn’t agree more, thank you.
It’s all about the money 💰
Luv Bubbles xx
There is an interesting article about the legal case against DuPont, explaining how it knowingly disposed of the highly toxic chemical PFOA-C8.
The article is from the ‘New York Times’, by Bryan Schutmaat, with the title ‘The lawyer who became DuPont’s worst nightmare.” The article is free to view online and is very informative.
The article explains how DuPont executives knew for decades that the chemical PFOA-C8 was highly toxic to people, animals and the environment. This is one chemical in about 4,700 described as ‘forever chemicals.’ They are called ‘forever chemicals’ because they do not break down or become benign even after thousands of years.
In addition to being highly persistent, they are also extremely toxic to people and wildlife, causing many health problems even in very tiny amounts. Some of the toxic effects are kidney and testicular cancer, liver problems, high cholesterol and immunosuppression. The chemical is also found to bind to human blood plasma, which means it is carried by the blood throughout the body, causing toxic effects to multiple organs.
DuPont began using PFOA-C8 in the manufacture of its Teflon products in the early 1950s and the company was aware that the chemical was highly toxic. In the early days, DuPont’s own company instructions stated that the chemical was not to be flushed into surface waterways or sewers. It needed to be incinerated or disposed of professionally by chemical-waste facilities.
Despite its knowledge of the highly toxic effects of PFOA-C8 and the very miniscule amounts that can be tolerated by humans and wildlife, the above article states:
“…over the decades that followed, DuPont pumped hundreds of thousands of pounds of PFOA powder through the outfall pipes of the Parkersburg facility into the Ohio River. The company dumped 7,100 tons of PFOA-laced sludge into ‘‘digestion ponds’’: open, unlined pits on the Washington Works property, from which the chemical could seep straight into the ground. PFOA entered the local water table, which supplied drinking water to the communities of Parkersburg, Vienna, Little Hocking and Lubeck — more than 100,000 people in all.”
The executives of DuPont *knew* how toxic the chemical was. In the 1960s, 70s and 80s, testing of the chemical by the company revealed its toxic effects and the serious health problems it caused. Despite this, DuPont continued to use it even though by the 1990s, a less toxic substitute became available. The company opted to keep using the more toxic chemical because the risk of using the substitute was too great. The Teflon products provided DuPont with annual profits worth $1billion and the company did not want to jeopardise the manufacture or popularity of its products.
The lawyer who worked on the case against DuPont had a battle on his hands and the stress eventually caused him health concerns also.
DuPont stalled, manipulated, hid and obscured evidence and denied wrongdoing, despite concrete evidence to the contrary. The lawyer filed the legal suit in 1999 and by 2005, DuPont reached a $16.5m settlement with the US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) “which had accused the company of concealing its knowledge of PFOA’s toxicity and presence in the environment in violation of the Toxic Substances Control Act.”
Although the settlement was the largest civil administrative penalty the EPA had ever issued at that point in time, it amounted to only 2 percent of the profits that DuPont had earned on PFOA that year.
_________________________________________________
This article is only one example of how the so-called “captains of industry” think and behave. Money is king to them. The health problems and present and future wellbeing of their employees, customers and the wider community and environment do not matter as much as their precious, all-encompassing profits and self-entitled greed does.
People talk about CEOs and executives and mention well-known ones like trillionaires and billionaires Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, Steve Jobs and Rupert Murdoch.
There are so many thousands more who are unknown and obscure, in every town and country, hiding behind the corporate veils of limited liability and board and shareholder anonymity and legal protections.
To me, they are not “captains of industry.” They are barbaric, greedy, grossly self-entitled and self-inflated, reckless charlatans that are motivated by ever-increasing greed and self-centredness.
They may provide products that are ‘progressive’ and they may provide employment ‘opportunities’, but the hidden agendas, tax evasion, government lobbying, underhanded coercions and disregard for the effects of their greed are staggering.
Dearest Wiser Now,
Thank you so much for taking the time to outline in explicit detail, very much appreciated 👏
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
You’re very welcome Bubbles, and thank you for your message.
Correction:
About the article referred to in my comment above, the relevant details are as follows:
Publication: ‘The New York Times Magazine.’
Title of feature article: ‘The Lawyer Who Became DuPont’s Worst Nightmare.’
Date of article: 6 January, 2016
Author: Nathaniel Rich
Source of photographs appearing in article: Bryan Schutmaat.
We can’t have any Teflon in the house because it will kill our birds, even rooms apart, doors closed, different level, doesn’t matter, it is so toxic to them. Yet it’s okay for humans?? I always think of the canary in the well…
I have mixed feelings about this article. I can’t help but feel there was a bit of a missed opportunity here to present a rounded view of the psychopath in context of society as a whole. Instead it portrays more of a Hollywood take on it. It delivers the shivers.
The cold and calculating predator applies to neurotypicals too. Humans are predators by their very nature. We kill for land, for resources, admittedly also for power and acclaim but humans as a race are tribal. One tribe kills or exploits another for resources and if I’m in the winning tribe, my children are fed and warm then honestly, I’m happy to be in the winning tribe, needs must. The ‘my tribe first’ approach to COVID vaccinations highlighted this in all its glory. Fairly typical of the state of the world today. Fast forward a hundred years and I think we’ll see far more of that tribal instinct showing through again.
Normals can be cold blooded killers, normals rape and steal. We only need to look at violent crime rates to know that’s the case. If psychopaths represent 1% of the population then they are either super busy or non psychopaths are in the game too.
It’s an uncomfortable truth. Humans as a species are predatory. It doesn’t sit well with people though. Civilised society prefers to have someone to cast as the bad guy. They don’t like to admit that in reality, if circumstances require, humans as a whole will and do kill each other in a heartbeat. Psychopaths weren’t solely responsible for the atrocities of WW2. Normal soldiers raped, tortured and killed for sport, mass graves are still hidden all over Europe. Ordinary Russian soldiers are doing similar right now in Ukraine.
Self control. Normals and empaths generally have more controls in place thanks to empathic traits but these are not the only deterrents to violence and anti social behaviour. Getting caught and the consequences of getting caught are a more effective deterrent at least for a high functioning psychopath. Normals are no different, deterrents have to be kept in place. We have already witnessed what unfolds when law enforcement are off the streets. We rapidly descend into chaos. People steal, they kill, they burn and they don’t just do it out of necessity, they do it for sport, they do it out of entitlement, most of all they do it because they can get away with it.
I do think the moral compass of the empath causes that specific group to self regulate a lot. That moral compass holds us steady but I wouldn’t stake my life on it in more desperate circumstances.
I think high functioning psychopaths have a valid role to play in todays world, though we might not like to admit it. If HG was going off to kill Putin tomorrow, I wouldn’t have a problem with that. I’d say, “Good luck, get it done.” So I embrace the psychopathy there, but then might see it as monstrous in another context. I accept it if it suits me then, if I see a benefit for me or my tribe, but condemn it if I don’t.
Not all empaths are the same. Not all normals are the same. Yet, we seem to view psychopaths as being all the same. That doesn’t stack up for me. I think this is what bothers me about this article. It portrays the psychopath in the way we expect, as something only to be feared and I’m not sure that’s always the case. Humans have evolved in such a way that psychopathy was necessary to drive the tribe forward, to ensure its survival, I think that’s still valid today in many respects, it’s just done differently.
I do see the point of the article. Psychopaths are not like me no matter how much they might appear to be. I also see the malignant side represented by the narcissism more so than the psychopathy. In many ways I view narcissism as more destructive than pure psychopathy. Overall, I think I just would have liked a broader, more balanced picture of the psychopath in relation to the human race as a whole.
@TS
Yes I wonder what a pure psychopath is like, in terms of how they relate to other people and what makes them different to a narcissist in how they behave and their internal processes.
I’m guessing that not all psychopaths are sadistic
Witch,
To my knowledge, no, not all psychopaths are sadistic. Sadism is viewed more as a trait.
Let’s say you start with a blank canvas, a psychopathic brain. An inability to experience emotional empathy. There are various factors that would then determine the ‘flavour’ of psychopath the child would develop into.
The main factors that seem to have most influence on that are thought to be,
1. Intelligence (most important)
2. Impulse regulation ability.
3. The ability to predict the consequences of one’s actions.
4. Epigenetics.
Personally I would add in conscientiousness, but the other 4 seem to get top billing.
Intelligence is key, not in the stereotypical Hollywood sense though. Intelligence supports impulse regulation. Intelligence also helps the psychopath follow a train of logic as regards the ability to predict consequences for their actions. Essentially, the more intelligent the psychopath the more the psychopath can see reasons to self regulate behaviour and not be ruled by the here and now.
In terms of impulse regulation, childhood abuse affects this but not in the way we might imagine. The psychopathic child is far more capable of dealing with effects of abuse. No child should ever be abused in any way, it goes without saying. I don’t care if the child is a psychopath or not, but what I mean here is the psychopath child won’t be traumatised by abuse. Verbal abuse, they don’t care, physical abuse they don’t dwell on it, they don’t suffer flashbacks, nightmares or PTSD. In this sense they are said to have a genetic advantage to withstand abuse that non psychopathic children wouldn’t have. Doesn’t make it any more acceptable, just that they do have a genetic advantage through the psychopathy.
The key thing with abuse is what else the child won’t receive from the parent. They are less likely to be taught things such as the advantages of delayed gratification, less likely to be taught impulse control. Want doesn’t mean take etc. Cognitive empathy is important here too. An appreciation of how others feel and why, the benefits to working within an accepted social framework. Cognitive empathy offsets the most negative aspects of behaviour in non violent, non aggressive psychopaths. Abusive parents are less likely to teach this consistently. There are other intelligence led routes to learning cognitive empathy, but parental influence is incredibly impactful.
Epigenetics. Little switches on your DNA that can be switched on during formative years as a result of environment. In psychopathic brains it’s not unusual to have epigenetic switches that relate to violence or aggression. If nothing flips those switches there’s a good chance those traits won’t appear. Abuse makes it more likely for those switches to flip though and that can turn on genetic coding for high violence and aggression.
So an abusive environment can reduce impulse control, fail to teach delayed gratification and can turn on genetic coding for violence and aggression. If that is the case, intelligence is key. Impulse regulation and ability to predict consequences could steer the psychopath into finding a more legal and socially acceptable outlet for these characteristics. Military involvement for example.
There will be all kinds of factors in addition that influence the outcome, but these seem to be most referred to.
In terms of internal processes I think the big difference is the fuel and control required by the narcissist, The narcissist needs to manipulate to get the fuel. They need control over people in order to secure the fuel, as well as the instinctive response to the threat to control. As a result the narcissist needs to interact with people. Theoretically, I have what a narcissist wants (fuel) so I’m always at risk to a greater or lesser degree depending on who else is available. Not so with the psychopath. The psychopath really isn’t interested in me at all. Doesn’t really need anything from me. As long as I don’t prevent him achieving an objective, I don’t get in the way of something he wants, I’m reasonably safe. Unless I’m unlucky enough to run into one of the low functioning Hare style psychopaths with a strong sadistic streak and penchant for meaningless aggression. Otherwise, I’d really have to question what I have that they would want. Unless it’s my dazzling charm and humour……
Xx
TS, this is very interesting, thank you for writing it. The intelligence makes so much sense, high intelligence would allow the ability to become surgeons, attorneys, high ranking military etc. And the way the rest plays in us how I’ve been thinking also, was missing that intelligence piece. Great comment, thanks.
Hi AV,
You’re welcome. Just what I’ve read, and there is a lot of conflicting information out there. Neuroscience seems to explain things more realistically in my view but it is just my view. I await HG’s further articles with anticipation.
„Impulse regulation and ability to predict consequences could steer the psychopath into finding a more legal and socially acceptable outlet for these characteristics. Military involvement for example.“
Bingo!
Legal and social acceptance of committing of murders.
Over what ?
It’s a spectrum with cadres too
Not to mention the sadism by in the industries where animal-testing and animals are involved! This is legalized sadism for psychopaths or emotion erased others! And who is paying their checks? The unknowing or the one who looks away and is caught in destruction.
That brought the society forth?! Good luck with that evolution.
@Witch,
I think you’re on to something with possibly not all psychopaths are sadistic. That puts a different slang on things for sure. But then, what happens to the dark triad, I wonder?
Dearest A Victor,
My 1st stepfather was a psychopath. He was very sadistic.
He married my mum to appear to look normal. He actually had very soft features but his eyes were empty. Once he married mum, he changed. He deliberately killed a kitten, tried to gas my brother and myself and took pleasure in hitting my mum and beating us. We were scared to death of him as he controlled all of us. He made us sit and watch him play the piano, then expect praise and applaud. He’d wake us up in the middle of the night to admire his attire. He selected and bought all our clothes, we had no choice. No wonder I’ve had sleep issues all my life.
I never liked him, I found him extremely creepy and wondered why on earth mum married him. He pursued mum with his charm and endless promises. He had a very dark secretive side. He used to go out at night til the early hours and was involved with some very undesirable shady people.
We were extremely lucky to make it out alive because the longer we were there the worse it became.
That part of my life gives me the complete horrors and it’s actually hard to talk about, however, I must, as it has helped me progress in my self-recovery love.
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Just in…. News of the day !!!!
Rupert Murdoch, 92, is to marry for the 5th time, less than a year after his divorce from Jerry Hall. Met his wife (66) just 6 months ago and proposed on St Pats day. What the frickin hell ???
Another one for the Tudorscope me thinks haha …..certainly makes a change from boring ol Prince Hazbeen and Mrs Hazbeen 🤣
Bubbles, I don’t know how you survived your upbringing with the parenting that you had (or didn’t have), but it sounds extremely traumatic. You had a more than a double whammy with a narcissistic mother and psychopathic stepfather. The worst for children is that they lack any kind of control in the situation and the terror for them is real. I’m so sorry you had to endure that and so grateful that you came out the other side of it to become the person you are today. The stories about your mother are disturbing enough, but to add this other to the mix is truly devastating. I don’t know how you came out of it sane. Some children are dealt significantly cruel blows. It’s a real testament to your strength of character that you not only survived, but in many ways seem to have thrived. I’m always grateful to know you have Mr. Bubbles on your side, even more so now <3
Hi Bubbles,
I am sorry you and your family had that experience. That is absolutely heartbreaking. I hope he has been fully out of your life since whatever happened. If you care to say, how was he different than a narcissist? I mean, how did you know it was psychopathy? I tend to think most psychopaths are sadistic, it is one of the traits they have. But I don’t know this for a fact. I am glad you made it out of that situation. AV💕
Bubbles, I just realized, your 1st stepfather sounds like my first father in law, right down to the kitten. Though he didn’t play the piano. An extremely abusive man with an emptiness in his eyes that I always found chilling, like he’d look at you without seeing you, without it computing. I felt so bad for his family, my ex’s life had been a living hell growing up, worse even than mine.
Rupert Murdoch would be good for the Tudorscope, I agree.
Dearest lickem,
Thank you for your response lovely.
I certainly didn’t have a normal childhood, but then mum made sure I didn’t have a normal adulthood either. I struggled internally and took an overdose when I was 22, at that time I was completely on my own and had no family to turn to. Luckily, I survived and turned my life around.
When mum moved without telling me, that added further angst, however, I needed to refocus ……again.
Mr Bubbles and I are each others stability and for that I’m truly grateful and thankful.
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Dearest A Victor,
Mum went to a psychiatrist who told her to get out fast and that our lives were in danger.
So we did. It was a master removal code red operation.
He also shredded mum’s clothes and opened her mail.
He was a mummy’s boy and his mum thought he was “a good boy”.
He ended up in a psych hospital and died a very long time ago.
I recently found a photo of him amongst mum’s things and I’m viewing him thru a Tudorscope lens, so to speak hehe
Really weird sensation!
My brother distanced himself from mum and myself, moved interstate. I believe it was his way of self preservation. I know he suffered immensely and has never spoken about it. The psycho would wake my brother in the middle of the night and take him wherever he went til the small hours. We were in primary school for heavens sake!
I feel your hurt too A Victor and other lovelies here. None of us deserved the inflictions we endured, but look how far we’ve all come and that speaks volumes ☺️
💕
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Bubbles!!!!!(((((💖))))) and your uplifting nature😂💞luv
Bubbles, so much respect for the way you have been able to turn your life around. The odds were badly stacked against you. I can completely understand the desire to end it all at an early age in the circumstances, you must have felt so abandoned. I’m really glad you didn’t succeed in your attempt. Imagine how many of us lovely empaths would have missed out on being treated to your wisdom and gentle humour? It would have been a loss to us all. I know some of the trials are ongoing, but I’m beginning to understand that is part of life and can’t ever be completely overcome. There will always be trials and we will continue to have to meet them. I imagine you’ve developed a level of resilience now that will ensure they don’t overcome you. Plus, you have a place here to help ensure that resilience will hold.
All the very best, Bubbles, sincerely <3 xox
Bubbles,
💜💜💜
It always amazes me what some of the most positive, resilient individuals that I know, have endured as children.
Dearest Jordyguin,
That’s so lovely gorgeous of you. Thank you ☺️
The other alternative sucks 😜
💚
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Dearest Lickem,
You are so sweet and kind and I thank you. I’m most humbled. I feel overwhelmed with everyone’s comments recently, (also under different headings) however I’m simply sharing my story. Others here have endured worse and all I’m trying to do is relate and share my experience in order to hopefully help others. My story goes back eons ago and every thing was hush hush back then and it was not spoken about. I had a ‘real’ moment where I felt sooooo unloved, totally alone, felt no purpose and made a bad judgement call on the spur of the moment. Times have certainly changed and there’s way more avenues of help available today.
Nobody, and I mean nobody is worth taking your life for. We are here for a reason and we go thru hard times to make us better. I look back and know I was here for a purpose as we all are.
We are all unique and each of us here make the world a better place even if at the time we are unsure and unaware.
The amount of those who have passed here on Mr Tudor’s blog don’t realise the impact of each and every one’s comments. I only hope those who were suffering were able to gain insight and reconstruct their lives in a positive way and see that they truly matter an have way more to offer others.
Once you can an accept the wonderful person you truly are, that’s when your life truly begins. Never rely on others to define you.
Be authentic and never let another person change you.
My parents (nor anyone else ) don’t define who I am ……I do !!!
You are all worth it and I mean that sincerely for the bottom of my heart.
One step forward one change forward.
Thank you lovely one,I really appreciate your words
💕💕💕💕
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Hello Bubbles, reading your recent comments gave a lot more insight into what you experienced when you were younger. I appreciated reading about it because it helps others to ‘measure’ their own experiences. I agree that things are so different now compared to years ago ie awareness on mental / emotional health and nowadays it’s discussed more ‘openly’. You have so much strength within you and you are such an inspiration. Thank you for sharing, and your comment here is such a lovely read 🙂 xx
Dearest Bubbles,
I often think of you as “Momma Empath”. Your words are soothing and inspirational.
Thank you 💗
Dearest WhoCares,
I amaze myself sometimes, but here I am 😂
All you lovelies amaze me and inspire me even further.
You’re the loveliest bunch 💐
💜
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Bubbles <3
Thanks for more inspiring words. They mean a lot right now xox
Bubbles, your warm and wise words of March 23 are touching and beautiful.
Thank you for sharing some parts of your childhood. It shows even better what kind of person you are.
Dearest Leigh,
Awe thank you lovely 🥰
Being a mum is about giving and nurturing… I luv it. Certainty was inherited 🤣
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Dearest Jordyguin,
Thank you sweet one ☺️
Feeling good is the only way forward for us
💕
Luv Bubbles xx
Dearest lickem,
I glad I was able to be of some help
Thank you lovely ☺️
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Dearest Joa,
You’re too kind
Thank you 💕
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Dearest Leigh,
Sorry, it was meant to read
Certainly wasn’t inherited
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Dearest Bubbles,
Too funny, I didn’t even notice the error. I read it the way you meant it.
There are excellent books like snakes in suits or the good psychopath and other books, by the authors
„Ordinary Russian soldiers are doing similar right now in Ukraine.“
Dearest TS, please don’t go there, like this. Members of my family and friends are currently in Ukraine and the other half are in Russia and you’d be lost for words what Ukrainians did/do as well to their own citizens, since this conflict started, many years ago. I’ll spare you the horrific details, which probably never showed up in the news feed or other informational sources – ever! Both sides are guided purposefully I very much assume. Where there is interest for control – so is the flow of the information you’ll be receiving, depending where in the world you are.
I remember, if I’m correct, hearing HG confirm in a live, the Ukrainian president is as just as a narcissist as the russian one (different school and cadre obviously).
I would’ve never imagined a war between this two brother-countries (where I spend part of my childhood) would be possible! It’s a mystery to me! Divide and rule.. is still the motto.
On your line of thinking on the Self Control – I’d like to add; there is very limited control empaths have – when their emotional buttons are pressed (which is most of the time). Having massive guilt afterwards, which can be than exploited further -> See your comment regarding the Russian soldiers (only). Not having a full picture and your empathic traits are corrupted in order to fight for the right thing, the right side. There are more sides and interests involved in this war, that’s for sure. But why should this sides enlighten us, right? It’s a strategic game. Putin want to create his legacy – as HG explained in his analysis of him. Just as the British expanded over the globe and created theirs. Just as other historic figures did at their time. I see a similarity in that movement and destruction of civilians, soldiers, countries are taken as collateral, justified consequences by all of them. An empath can’t cope with this I think. I can’t! Because we don’t have the need for control and power over other individuals, resources in that fashion of invasion. You mentioning that psychopathy was necessary to drive the tribe forward – frightens me a little and I don’t understand what you referring to? Whatever happened is what we have now. War, war, war and heavier weapons of mass destruction. Plus the upcoming manufacturing of total control via new technologies.
Dearest TS, I’d love you to expand (if you want to of course) on what do you mean by „Humans have evolved in such a way that psychopathy was necessary to drive the tribe forward, to ensure its survival, I think that’s still valid today in many respects, it’s just done differently.“
What is done differently? How is survival ensured?
The very word – survival – tells about the mindset of ours. We talk survive instead of live and having the safety of the value of our lives.
Hi Jordyguin, I think empaths can learn to control their emotions, or at the very least, their response to emotions. And also the guilt aspect, we can recognize that it’s not logical to carry guilt, in many instances. The ability to learn and change is one thing that makes us different from narcissists.
There is one particular actress HG identified as an Upper Mid-Range Elite, in my wildest dreams I’d never ever would have thought her being a narcissist. She is gorgeous and sweet, effective, professional, super intelligent and just fantastic!! Loved and respected by all. There is no bad anything about her as far as I’m aware of. It’s me who could learn from her, you know. Ahh it’s all not that simple.. I can’t place myself higher and say the ability to learn and change is one thing that makes us different from narcissists.
Hi Jordy, not a matter of placing myself higher than, not at all. It’s just a difference, that’s all. As human beings, we are all equal. There are many actors and actresses that I have been surprised by.
Hi Vic! Thank you! Got it!
Hi Jordy, in light of this conversation and another comment I just wrote, narcs place their value above ours. All the time. We don’t do that, most of us anyway. I don’t need to, I just need to get away from them.
True, Vic💖 It is unnatural to you as an empath and you don’t have the need to do that. In situations when you have to stand up for yourself in order to disengage, it actually don’t matter if you would call it or experience as – placing your value or your right to be free, above their “right” to exploit and abuse. Whatever formulation or mindset you must apply and what works for you in order to remove yourself from abuse or situations where you don’t want to be in, is perfect!
Hi Jordy, what you were is true I believe for most of not all empaths. And it correlates with your comment previously about us developing a “cold” nature, toward the narcissist. Once we see them as they are, it gets easier.
Hello Jordyguin,
Firstly let me say how sorry I am for your situation and the situation of your family as regards the war between Russia and Ukraine. I have a friend I speak to online who is in a similar situation. His grandmother and several other relatives are in Ukraine, he and his immediate family are in Russia. He said similar to you, he is entirely opposed to the war and he is scared for his extended family.
I don’t think it’s ever truly clear. There is never one country entirely innocent and another entirely guilty and I agree, opinion will depend very much on the news we receive. Using a variety of media sources helps but it still doesn’t remove all bias. I do think Putin needs to be stopped, primarily because of his threats to use nuclear weapons and the associated risk of a Third World War and also because if he isn’t stopped, where would he go next? Moldova? Poland? I think his methods are brutal. The whole situation terrifies me if I’m honest. I agree Putin’s motivation is his legacy and there is no regard for innocent lives lost in the pursuit of that legacy. I didn’t know that HG had confirmed Zelensky as a narcissist but it doesn’t surprise me, his record won’t be without blemish either, they never are.
In terms of psychopaths driving the tribe forward, for me this has more to do with lack of fear and tendency to take risks. So if we go back in time and look at the tribe in the cave. There is a noise outside. The psychopath is the one who is most likely to go outside the cave to investigate it. If it’s a predator he seeks to kill it, if it’s a member of an opposing tribe, the psychopath is likely to kill the enemy tribe member and take his resources / weapons. Those who remain in the cave ensure the wellbeing of the tribe, the psychopath ensures its survival, takes the risks and drives it forward.
Every group needs a mix of personalities for it to become successful, and within it there usually needs to be a risk taker. So today that might be a CEO, prone to risk taking, has considerable drive, is objective driven etc, but has no regard for employee wellbeing. Another group member needs to facilitate that, not this CEO. In terms of psychopaths driving the tribe forward today, they will still be fearless risk takers in key positions. It’s done differently though, not always via war but via things like the stock exchange, currency markets, technology, even pharmaceuticals. Big business, big rewards, but success in these areas can prop up an economy, or can influence production and distribution of a vaccine. Similar skills, similar idea just done differently.
The high functioning psychopath still gets his kicks, he just gets them in a different way. If he’s successful he will still drive his tribe forward. The psychopath isn’t the only one who can do this, but he has natural genetic advantages which facilitate him being able to do it. The psychopath trader on the stock exchange who loses big on Monday, doesn’t go home and worry about the people whose livelihoods he destroyed by his deal, he gets up and does the same thing again on Tuesday and on Wednesday because it’s still the logical move to make. They don’t burn out as we would. They keep going. Doesn’t mean they don’t monumentally mess up at times though, so I don’t proclaim them to be heroes, I just think there is a valid place for them in specific areas of society.
Xx
Dear TS thank you!! I understand now how you view it!
No problem Jordyguin. Xx
A valid place for them in the society? Idk..Neeee.. All can leave except HG !
Jordyguin,
“All can leave except HG.” I get where you are coming from here and in many ways I don’t disagree with you. In actual fact I don’t 100% know where I stand on a lot of things recently.
I often look at the motivation behind behaviour when looking at character, up until recently I have viewed motivation as more weighty than outcome, but of late I’m starting to look at things slightly differently. Now I’m not so sure that motivation is the fail safe factor I thought it was. I think it holds up in some situations but not in others.
If we take HG as an example. He’s a narcissistic psychopath. We know that he has caused harm to people intentionally. We also know that the reason he produces work on narcissism is not to do good, not to help people, but to ensure a legacy. So motivation for harm puts him in the ‘bad’ box. Motivation for the ‘good’ he does here, puts him in the selfish box. So thus far in terms of motivation for behaviour he’s not looking great.
But if we look at outcomes, on balance he fares better. He intentionally does harm to people. He has a sadistic streak so will get off on doing harm to some of those people (likely those he sees as more of a challenge, grandiosity is strong in this one!) Some of those people might be deemed ‘innocent’, some might be deemed ‘dangerous’ or a large scale threat to society. We don’t know the ins and outs of it. Then if you look at his work on narcissism. How many people has he helped to escape abusive relationships? How many of those might have lost or taken their own lives if they hadn’t found him and his work? Now he’s looking pretty good. He has helped far more people than he has harmed, saved more lives than he has taken and has armed and educated empaths to save and protect themselves and their loved ones going forward. In terms of net outcome he has helped thousands, tens of thousands and directly harmed what, maybe a hundred? Not to say this hundred should be ignored.
I could say “Ah yes, but his motivation for helping is entirely selfish, it doesn’t count.” the end result though remains the same. People are helped. HG has helped far more people than I have.
Then let’s say you have an empath working in a small charity. Motivation is unquestionably good. The empath has dedicated his entire career to doing good, put his heart and soul into helping people far less fortunate.
Looking at outcomes, we expect those to be positive. Wrong, it just so happens that this charity was embezzling funds. All those funds that the empath raised, all that hard work amounted to nothing. No one was helped apart from the corrupt founders (normals) of the charity and their associated PR agency. This isn’t beyond the realms of possibility, many charity donations people make never get to the starving orphan on the screen. So in terms of outcome, the empath sits at neutral, he didn’t harm anyone but he didn’t help anyone either (other than in his daily life of course). Comparatively HG put more good out into the world than the empath despite his selfish motivation. The empath made little difference despite their honourable motivation.
What if Elon Musk is a narcissistic psychopath? I think it’s safe to say he’s a narcissist, possibly he is both. Tesla cars are supposed to help reduce global warming. Is the technology from his companies helping to prevent loss of life through natural disasters? Might it in the future? If Elon manages to populate Mars he might just save the human race should global warming destroy us all as many experts would have us believe. ( doesn’t sound believable but Elon obviously thinks it is!) Motivation, selfish, Elon has an horrific reputation as a boss, questionable behaviour as regards his own romantic relationships and his kids. Elon wouldn’t think twice or worry about injuries caused by his self driving electric cars yet, would be moved to rectify the fault because too many accidents just aren’t good for business and there are after all, always more billions to make. Motivation for Elon, bad / selfish. Possible net outcome, very good indeed. That said, if we looked at some of the other pies Elon has his fingers in, he might come out of it far less favourably.
It’s difficult to wholeheartedly say one way or the other if psychopaths have a place in society or not, particularly if you place a lot of weight behind motivation and personal relationships, but, on balance and if focussed on outcomes, some will do more good than harm, as is the case with HG. Others will do far far more harm than good. This holds true also with normals, narcissists and likely through no fault of their own, empaths. All this will happen no matter what my thoughts on it might be, the wheels will keep turning regardless.
It’s a nasty old world out there, some might say it’s dog eat dog. I agree very much with your point about what we ourselves can do. We can only try to remain true to our empathic traits and do good within our own reach of being able to do good. We can make a difference within our own spheres of influence, we have a vote and can attempt to use it to stand up for what we believe is right or, more likely, what is least wrong. I said to a friend the other day, “If every empath found and helped just one other empath to get out of ensnarement, imagine the difference that would make.” So I agree with what you said above about making a difference in the world and the impact that might have. I admire your determination.
Xx
TS,
The fact is that all the “categories” are in the world, have always been. That said, if we look at the bad vs good that each category has brought to the table as a whole, I say narcs and psychopaths far outweigh on the bad side. Our “little” good efforts, perhaps big for a few empaths, I would guess cumulatively at least equal or outweigh the cumulative evil done by narcs/psychopaths. I may imagine doing a horrific thing but the likelihood of it being done is extremely low. And even then it’s only going to be things such as castration of rapists and child molesters, a thing that the majority might see as a positive, certainly in this weighing system it could be counted as such, given the unprovoked evils done by the “other side”. So though we can pull a few out and say that their prime aims being met allowed good for a sizable group, if we pull the lens back further, it is a different picture altogether. But again, we are all here, the best we can then do is take the ” good”, hold all accountable for the bad as required.
HG teaches us not to look at motivation but rather at action, fact, logic.
TS, fascinating read! Thank you dear! Your thoughts and regards are very accurate and important for me to see!
AV,
You might be right.
Forgot to mention, I read Zelenskyy at some point suggested to drop the nuclear bomb on Kreml first, before Kreml drops theirs. What’s the truth in all this “information”? Eh, are there two of them? In english he is Zelenskyy in german Selenskyj. Never noticed it before. How unnecessary. See, even here it differs depending on the country.
Jordyguin, I really sincerely advise you to change your source of information.
The facts are as follows:
– Ukraine used to have a nuclear potential. About 5,000 nuclear warheads.
– In order to finally free Ukraine from the Russians and gain independence, Ukraine concluded the Budapest Accord with Russia, USA and UK (1994). In exchange for the final determination of borders, along with Crimea (!), in exchange for a guarantee of SECURITY in this part of the world – Ukraine gave Russia its entire nuclear potential in 1996.
Ironic, right? Trust the Cheater…
– So, how Volodomyr Zelensky, whose name you mention so often, supposed to drop a bomb on the Kremlin?
Apart from minor pyromaniac attacks of “unknown origin” on Russian territory, he has little room for maneuver.
Dear Joa, thank you for your concerns regarding Ukraine and your comments, sharing your view on this conflict.
Some of my relatives and friends stayed in Kiev and some had to leave. Some were also passing Poland. They were very grateful for the good organisation there and the help they received. Well done and many thanks to the people in your country who are helping!!!
This conflict will end one day and we’ll see what awaits us in the future. It’s excellent that we have the opportunity to learn here in this uncertain times💕
Yes, Jordyguin, we all want an end to this barbaric conflict.
The most viable option seems to be for Russia to clean up “things” on its own. Putin will get weaker and weaker – he will not stop the passage of time and external resistance is not weakening. Certainly, plans are already swarming in the heads of the Russian “Young Lions”. And the narrative can be changed very quickly – especially in Russia.
Unfortunately, it may take a while 🙁
I wish You, to be able to meet your loved ones someday in calmer times.
Jordyguin: I wrote earlier about my son as a marine. And I consulted HG as my son was trained in killing. Would that make him a psychopath? No. It’s a tragedy as psychopaths control the war there. Those fighting may be a mix of every range of human experience but they will probably never survive it whole. My father was a Vietnam vet. He didn’t. He lost every friend who was a member of his class at Norwich in that war. I don’t know what to say to you but as a daughter of a suffering vet, it goes on. I am certain there are soldiers that are psychopaths but I am very certain most are not. They are soldiers. They kill or be killed. It’s different. The focus should be why these boys are there in the first place. What sicko or norm is sending them and why. We didn’t learn anything after Vietnam. That’s certain. Do we ever? Look at history? My son says China is next….
Wow Contagious, this is an interesting comment.
I agree, the soldiers are just people trying to survive. I think the ones who move up the ranks are more likely to be the narcs and psychopaths.
Regarding your comment about them going to prison, I agree, I don’t think psychopaths consider right or wrong, I think only, “What do I need” and some are intelligent enough to recognize they don’t want to be caught and how to avoid that. Does it cause some to not do what we consider to be wrong? I think so. Until it doesn’t. Thankfully many don’t cross that line, or so we think.
Hey dear C, well said. I think though the empaths must be in minority.
Jordy–
My heart goes out to you and all people being affected by the events in Ukraine.
The media and world governments are selling a particular narrative, probably because they’re filling their pockets with money and gaining more power. What lies before us and what lies behind us is not as disturbing as what lies directly to our faces…
You’re saying what I’ve suspected about what we’re NOT being told. I’ve had this argument with several people in my personal life about this war. People who believe that one side is entirely to blame and think that the other isn’t doing horrible things to the innocent people who are ethnically divergent from those in power. I have a feeling it’s no better, and probably worse, than what the U.S. did to its citizens of German and Japanese descent during World War II.
I agree that empaths have a difficult time once their emotional buttons are pressed.
“An empath can’t cope with this I think.”
Are you saying you don’t think an empath could lead the kinds of world conquering campaigns that Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, Genghis Khan, or others did?
Or that empaths couldn’t cope with being in the armies of these kinds of leaders?
Dani, I think what I’m saying is, I can’t understand and be ok with, that life of a human being or animal is not valued.
Jordyguin, your statement about two “brotherly” countries – is very pro-Putin.
What was this “brotherhood”? I understand, that an excellent example of this “brotherhood” was, for example, the “Great Famine” or “Starve to Death” (variously called), as a result of which 6-10 million people died in Ukraine, because Russia forcibly confiscated and stole all agricultural products.
I understand, that this “brotherhood” consists in the Russians’ conviction, that Ukraine is their property? (like other European territories).
Between Poland (my homeland) and Ukraine, not so long ago, there were terrible murders, very sadistic ways of killing Poles (the list of these ways can be found on the Internet under the slogan: Volyn – list of tortures – but I warn, not for delicate people). A large part of Ukraine used to belong to Poland.
But no one in our country (apart from some 0.01% of extreme dissenters) claims Ukraine. We tried to forget all the cruel things that happened, we helped Ukraine to grow, to be a prudent and wise neighbor state.
There are many people of Ukrainian descent in my country. In the building where I live as many as 4 Ukrainian families. In my daughter’s class, three Ukrainian teenagers. In almost every store – nice Ukrainian women 🙂
Talking to them – no one mentions the alleged “brotherhood”. It’s just the Russian version.
And let me add, that Volodymyr Zelensky won 73% of support in the elections. This also says something – especially after previous electoral fraud in this country.
No one wants war (except the Russians and those, who profit from it), but when someone attacks you, brutally kills innocents and children, laughing in your face – you have to defend yourself… and even attack.
Joa, I grew up in Ukrain/Russia (and later in Germany). Part of my family are Ukrainians and Russians. I speak this languages. I know what I am talking about when I say „brother countries“. I am not pro-anyone except human race being one family with diverse cultures and habitats. I’m aware of the conflicts and the results in all of this, more than I actually wish to talk about, since this blog is not for this matters, but for more deeper understanding why we are confronted with such conflicts in the first place. Cruelty happened on every side ever since, there is no such evaluation „who suffered more and let’s blame them“ – all suffered by the same hand of inhumane mindset which developed in certain groups of population in every country on this planet. The leaders come and go, there are few I respect and wished they’ve had more time and resources to do it better, more just and beneficial for all.
Society can’t thrive and reach a satisfying outcome if it stands on the suffering of others in all aspects of life. Especially if it stands on top of those who can’t defend themselves and are brutally damaged and exploited, including nature.
I don’t know the exact numbers, but perhaps half a population is desensitized to recognise the chain which leads to their downfall.
Anyway, I’m optimistic for the other half.
Jordyguin, you wrote very nicely, although you do not explain specifically what the alleged “brotherhood” is (from which Ukraine is so desperately cutting itself off).
Unless it is a generally accepted norm, that the “older brother” living next door (called Ork by the Ukrainians) enters your house, takes what he likes, empties your fridge (and even takes away the whole fridge) , rapes you, kills your husband and father-in-law, your children are abducted, and finally sets the house on fire.
You’re right – this blog is not a place for political disputes (although many situations from our lives are discussed here, and this war touches me to the core). So it amazes me all the more, that out of the millions of information available, you decide to write about the outdated slogan of “brotherhood” or “dropping a bomb on the Kremlin” by “Narc-Volodymyr Zelensky” (another outdated Russian narrative).
This called me to the board, even though I usually write here… about myself 🙂
I want to emphasize here, that for several dozen years Russia (CCCP) was also the “Big Brother” (so we said) of Poland. This narrative was also used by Russia in relation to all satellite states.
Although we have never allowed ourselves to be assimilated as much as in many other countries.
What is this “brotherhood” and what is this “friendship”, based on pressure and fear? And in case of the slightest resistance or manifestation of individualism, this “brother” applies a drastic humiliation of human…
It’s time to wake up from this “brotherly” dream.
And yet the USA is criticized for sending aide as is Germany for its fuel stance ( “ USA still occupies Germany after WW II) and the west while Putin visits China. This is what I read in America as if it’s wrong to support the Ukraine. Sad.
Contagious, only very short-sighted people can criticize.
If Ukraine, together with the helping countries, had not stopped this “plague” – it would have spread on a much wider scale and gained more strength. That is why I feel GRATEFUL, that Ukraine has taken the greatest burden on its shoulders.
We are not a rich country. We can only help by welcoming women and children to us, by providing humanitarian aid, by making transport routes available to other countries, by providing equipment in a fractional range.
In my country, the Germans were also criticized – for their staggering slowness and indecisiveness.
As for Putin’s meeting with Xi Jinping – we joke that Putin thinks he has eaten dinner and does not see that he is just being eaten. Others joke, that now Putin will find out what it’s like to be Lukashenko 🙂
We like to joke. It binds and sustains morale.
Truthseeker6157
Excellent post
I agree with all you said above.
There are indeed psychopaths that lead normal lives never commit crime and are just perceived as being cold. Just like there are Neurotypicals who commit crime.
If done anonymously it is frightening how high a large majority score on the dark triad… just saying!
Hi Anna,
The dark triad, I did a tin pot online test for that. Funnily enough, I scored quite high! Haha!
Xx
Hi Truthseeker6157,
Ditto, I am apparently Machiavellian.
Rather amusing.
HI TS, I really like your thoughts on this. What extent would a normal or an empath go to if they were protecting their children?
I also agree that not all psychopaths are the same. You have to take into account upbringing, education, pure psychopath vs. narcissistic psychopath & awareness vs. unawareness.
I took this article specifically from Mr. Tudor’s perspective and how the psychopathy manifests and effects him specifically. Mr. Tudor’s was brought up to be proper and polite, he’s highly educated, he’s a narcissistic psychopath and he has awareness. Remove all those things and you have a very different psychopath.
I do hope Mr. Tudor writes more articles about the subject and how it would manifest in different people. I don’t know much about psychopathy and the truthseeker in me is intrigued.
Hi Leigh, I am certain I could pass as a narcissist if I were only seen in Mama Bear mode!
Awareness vs unawareness, this is interesting, are any unaware? Is it the same as with narcissists? I had not considered this before. Or is it that they, like young HG, recognize they’re different but may or may not realize why at some point? I feel like if they realized they could do things without emotion before, during or after, they would really embrace that and it could go really strongly toward our perception of good or bad. And as TS said, you have one with training in etiquette,
Oops hit send early…
Training in etiquette but not as intelligent, that could work on their charm quotient also. TS’s part in that being the intelligence. Anyway, interesting to me also!
AV, LOL! You can’t mess with Mama Bear’s cubs!
I never even considered that all psychopaths are aware. I just assumed that there must be unaware psychopaths just like there are unaware narcissists. I assumed the less intelligent ones may feel different but may not understand why. I guess that was speculation on my part, which probably isn’t very good. I know so little about this subject but I’m eager to learn.
Leigh, same! I hadn’t considered that they would know about themselves or not?
The law says to be aware is to know right from wrong on a cognitive level. This is why so many psychopaths go to jail. They are often able to function unlike a schizophrenic. Calculate their crimes so they are believed to be “ aware.” Take a Ted Bundy who was a lawyer versus son of Sam. There is this theory of compulsions that lead to similar styles in killing. HG has not touched on the compulsions or the spectrum of psychopaths. Most prisons are filled with antisocials but many don’t kill. And not all psychopaths are bloodthirsty or sadists. I imagine he will get to more details then the “ eyes”! Can’t wait!
Same! I am looking forward to it also. Thank goodness they don’t all kill or become sadists!
Hi Leigh! What a normal or empath would do if a child were threatened? Kill him. My father was a Vietnam vet and he made me get a gun when I was divorced. He said I have no doubt you won’t use it if you were threatened but what about your kids? I got licensed and kept it locked. My children are grown. I no longer have it but????
Hi Contagious, I don’t know if I could kill and quite honestly, I hope I’m never in a situation where I have to find out.
I do feel the need to protect my children but I’ve also experienced paralyzing fear. My daughter was choking once. She was about 2 or 3. My husband was with me. All I could do was scream. He was the one that helped her. Maybe if he wasn’t there my need to protect would override my fear.
I know many on here own guns. They scare the heck out of me.
Hi Leigh: if no gun, then anything in my sight. Imagine someone raping your child. Nope. I am an empath but there is one way I would kill. Touch someone I love.
Hi Contagious, yes, I agree. I’m sure my savior would be triggered.
Hi Leigh and Contagious,
I’ve had this very debate with myself multiple times, Would I kill, if I had to? I’ve thought over it and came to this conclusion. I react in situation of danger, to myself or others, completely instinctively. There’s no slow thought of, I must do this or that…I have one quick thought or image in my head of my loved one being hurt and I react! It’s instant and quick. My adrenaline kicks in and I protect, with no thought of myself getting hurt. Leigh, like you, I hope I never have to kill to protect someone. I believe now, I could do it, if needed to be done. That’s hard to say, even harder to think about, but I hope I could live with it. I hope I never have to do it.
I have a gun, but it’s a bb gun. It would be more effective as a blunt instrument of defense, than a gun. I want to get a handgun and I did test a few out at a shooting range, back in the fall last year. My husband, MLSOMATIC, doesn’t want me to get a handgun for protection. 😂 He was with me ,and a few of my friends, at the shooting range. I aimed with the Remington and my first shot was the head of paper target, next was the stomach and then the heart. I turned to my husband and asked him, if he wanted to try the next one. His facial expression made me laugh! I smiled at him and he looked upset. I told him, I wanted to buy one. He said, no way! You’ll shot me, if I come home in the middle of the night! I told him, Why you coming home in the middle of the night? I grinned at him, while holding the gun. He laughed. I did like the Glock 9mm I tested that day, it had less backfire than the Remington did. Anyway, they had tazers, mace and night sticks. It was like an adult toy store for me. My best friend and I were looking at the different ,non lethal guns. She got one that shots, I think it was, rubber balls. Sorta like a paint gun they use, during Paintball. They hurt like hell, leave a nasty bruise,but don’t usually kill. I believe you have to hit a person in the head, to kill them with this gun. I could be wrong about that. Anyway, no gun for me…. Leigh, my dad and most of my family were military, so guns are to be respected and not feared, was my family motto. I understand how you feel about them, but the person behind them, is the real concern I have.xx
Hi Rebecca, I hadn’t thought about an instinctual response. That’s a very good point. My instincts would probably take over.
I had two friends who were shot. Once was 15, one was 12. The 12 year old was shot in the face and died instantly. The 15 year old was shot in the shoulder and survived. Both of them were shot by friends who were horsing around with thir parent’s guns. It’s why I have an aversion to guns.
Your story about MLSomatic’s reaction to you wanting a gun, made me chuckle! Lol! Don’t mess with Rebecca!
Hi Leigh, your stories made me remember, there were three tragedies in my ex’s family that involved guns. All were adults but in all three, drugs and/or alcohol were a factor. I think that’s a much bigger issue, for adults, than guns in themselves.
Hi AV, I agree. In two of the incidents, the individuals who shot off the gun were high. I don’t blame the guns. I blame the people that don’t respect them and using them irresponsibly.
Leigh,
I’m sorry you lost your friends that way, that’s horrible and I understand your aversion to guns. Unfortunately, it does happen, when guns aren’t properly stored out of reach of children and some curious adults. I think there should be a form people have to read and sign, when buying a gun. The form would give a detail description of how to properly and safely store the gun, to keep people safe from their own curiosity. They might already have a form, being that I didn’t purchase one, I don’t know, if there is. It’s a preventative idea I had.
😂 The expression on MLSOMATIC ‘s face was even funnier! I don’t think his eyes could have gotten any bigger! 😂 I saw his fear and I was like, there’s some fear, check one for not being a psychopath. 😂
My best friend likes to play hit, for things like ‘punch bug’ and seeing car bras, while driving with the front passenger. She told me, if you get shotgun in my car, you have to be ready for the punch bug punches. She’s laughing and looking at me. I laugh and look her dead in the face. I tell her, don’t hit me, I hit back and it’s automatic, so don’t play that with me. It’s funny because she doesn’t do it to me often, once in a while she’ll lightly give me a punch bug, which doesn’t make me hit her back. I do just laugh and smile at her, and say, you’re lucky that didn’t hurt. You’re playing Russian roulette. 😂 I’ve come to realize it’s the amount of pain from the hit, that makes me react to being hit. I think it’s from physical trauma from being abused physically, it’s an instinctual reaction to negative stimulus and its not a Billy badass thing, I’m not tough, at least I don’t think I’m tough, but I did laugh at your comment, “Don’t mess with Rebecca!” I’m thinking, from studying HG’s work and self reflecting, that I’m more lamb, than lion….though, the lion, my mean streak, is there and a part of me. I think everyone has that flip side of themselves, so I don’t think I’m special, just have the full spectrum of emotions. Welcome to empathhood! 😂 Thanks for sharing your story and your thoughts. Xx Thanks HG for creating a place to learn and discuss narcissist and other important related subjects. Your work does good for people and that makes all the difference to me. Xx
Rebecca, LOL! I loved playing punch buggy as a kid. Sometimes I still do it too. It brings me back to my childhood, lol!
I’m much more lamb then lion too. But I have 33% geyser so sometimes I erupt. Since being here on narcsite, I’ve learned to control those eruptions. I don’t want the narcs getting fuel from me, lol.
I grew up in a bad neighborhood. Not quite the ghetto but maybe a step or two up. I was just reminded of another girl who was 17 and shot and killed by her boyfriend. I think I was 6 or 7 at the time. In my neighborhood, parents didn’t teach children to respect firearms. I agree its the person holding the firearm, not the firearm itself. I know that the good people who own a gun for protection purposes won’t use it to harm others. I definitely see a place for them, just not in my hands, lol!
Leigh,
I grew up in Navy housing neighborhoods, where it was commonplace for child abuse to happen to my Navy kid friends. I grew up thinking everyone was punished by their parents. However, I didn’t think your sibling trying to rape you was normal and I was ashamed of that part of my childhood. I’m still ashamed of it, like it makes me a dirty person, something less than others. I know it’s not right, but I still feel the shame. I thought my anger and resentment towards my mother and brother, meant I was a bad person…the things I wanted to do to them, the pain I felt like inflicting on them…I didn’t do, part of me still loved them and couldn’t do permanent damage to them. I thought I was bad because I couldn’t forgive them, eventhough I still loved them. I wish I could have loved them without resenting them, but that was on them, not me. It’s what they did, that made me resent them. It doesn’t make me bad, just human.
I have 25% Geyser, so I erupt too, in fact, my brother would love to torment me until I would erupt into fits of punching him. He would get off on it and laugh and laugh. I would even bloody his nose and he’d be smiling. He’d get furious, pull my hair and hold down my arms and that’s when I’d bite him. He’d like me go then and call me crazy. I was just responding to his abuse, not crazy at all. Most people would respond to such abuse. I’m not crazy.
Hi Rebecca, I’ve struggled with feeling inherently bad too. We’ve been conditioned that we’re the bad ones and that everything is our fault, so we believed it. Our ET is conning us so we stay on the Wheel of Misery.
We feel like we’re the bad ones because we have these thoughts of revenge. Then because we feel bad, we keep on trying to make it right. Your brother almost raped you. He didn’t deserve your love.
I’m sorry your brother did that to you and I’m sorry your mother didn’t protect you. You’ve been conditioned to think your the bad one, the crazy one. But your not. When you have those thoughts, knock them down. Like NA told you, shout “LIES” and boot those thoughts out of your head.
Leigh,
MLSOMATIC doesn’t think I’d should own a gun. He thinks I’ll just shot his ass, whenever he makes me mad. I wouldn’t do that. I would in self defense, or to protect a love one, that’s why I want a gun, not to just shot someone for pissing me off. No,not me. You’d think he’d know that.
Right now, he’s in his work shop, mad at me because I wouldn’t give into what he wanted me to do. He reacted by withdrawaling and now the silent treatment begins….ahhh, the peace…win, win for me….I wonder, if he’ll end up leaving, before I can? I never thought before as sex as a means of control, but it is for him and he doesn’t know what to do, because I won’t give in. He even said to me yesterday, he should find someone to have sex with. I told him, go for it, knock yourself out. He left the room. 😂 I don’t even care. I’m so unattached to him emotionally, that I’m numb to his manipulations now and you know what? It’s very freeing, not to care. 😂 xx
Rebecca, I often wonder if The Cat King will leave me or throw me out first. The Cat King is how I refer to my husband. It’s actually funny to watch. There his subjects, lol!
I’ve limited my fuel output so I’m hoping that might drive him away. For now, i keep saving but won’t it be a nice surprise if he leaves me first! The one really unfortunate thing for me is that he’s a victim narc so he may stick around for the residual benefits. Although, he interprets my fuel as love. Since I’m not fueling him, he thinks I don’t love him anymore. He’s 100% right. So maybe if he meets someone whose fuel is potent, he’ll leave me. Fingers and toes crossed for both of us!
Leigh,
MLSOMATIC is complaining about the same thing with me. I’m not giving him fuel much anymore, I give him the bare necessities and he’s saying I don’t love him anymore. I feel bad for him and I can’t help it. There’s just somethings I don’t want to do with him anymore, like sex, I don’t feel emotionally attached to him and the thought of sex with him, just turns me off. It makes me a bit sad and it makes me feel bad. Hell, I feel bad for homes that get destroyed and I cry when I dog is killed in a movie. I have friends tell me, you know the dog didn’t really die, right? Yeah, but the character ,the dog, died in the story and that’s still sad to me. I’m just a heart with limbs and a head. Xx It would be a relief to me, to not hurt him..xx
Hi Rebecca,
You shouldn’t feel bad for your husband. Its your ET conning you to stay on the wheel of misery. It doesn’t matter that you’re not having sex with him. You’re still giving him your energy by thinking about him and feeling bad for him. Does he feel bad for the way he treats you? No, he does not.
I think you should read Wheel of Misery. Do you have the logic bulletin, Halting the Hurt? Its about how to avoid the three prongs of the Devil’s Pitchfork. I also think Zero Impact can be useful.
I know my ET is high as well. But I do have some clarity and the above items have helped me achieve that.
Leigh,
I think you and I have a lot in common, in regards to the situation we’re in. We both have children we’re concerned about and we both have narcs we’ve emotionally pulled away from, so why are we still here? We each have our own reasons.. I worry about the child and I’m a bit afraid…and yeah, I got the Fear and the Empath Victim bullentin….and I have a plan in place,but I fear it’ll fail, or I’ll fail, or I’ll regret my decision…I hate self doubt, having so many emotions sucks at times, this is one of them. I have a whole future planned with my life, focusing on my goals and things I’m working for right now to achieve, so I’m not sitting down. I am working for set goals. I just really would enjoy doing all this without dealing with all these annoying emotions to tag along and ask me, what if this, what if that? Shut up already! Is what I feel like saying to them. Push them out of my head. I have to fight my own thoughts of self doubt. I’ve been on this wheel for so long, that it’s just the norm for me and I just feel like breaking down sometimes and it’s overwhelming and this ET doesn’t help because it makes me feel guilty and mean on top of that. I need to do this. I’m not attached to him, but I still feel empathy for him. ET sucks.
Nothing will happen with your ET until you leave, you know this and have been told this repeatedly.
Rebecca,
We do have a lot in common and I can see your ET is skyrocketing right now. You won’t regret your decision. That’s your ET conning you. We’ve been conditioned to believe we are always wrong and that’s why we continually question ourselves.
I think you need to find a way to knock your ET down some how. Can you book a consult with Mr. Tudor? Mr. Tudor will be able to hit you with logic that you really need right now.
Hi Rebecca,
I can promise you – the only thing you will regret after getting your ass out is that you have waisted your time with him. Especially the extra time you’ve given him.
Logic.
HG, Leigh, NarcAngel and Jasmin,
I have a celebration thing to go to tonight, it’s a birthday thing and of course, what does the narc do? Make it about him….this morning he was talking about being depressed, wanting to go on antidepressants and he’s wanting to start drinking again. No way am I sticking around for Round 2 of drunk MLSOMATIC! Dealt with that shit for too long before, not doing it again. He knows I won’t stick around for that….hes probably just saying that to upset me. Well, it did, but not in the way he had hoped. Nope, nope, nope.
Hi Leigh,
I’ve gotten, Fear and the Empathic victim, Halting the Hurt and the Addiction package….all are good and helped me see my addiction, what caused it, how to get away from it etc, but my ET is still high because I’m still living with the abuse…the abuse I grew up and I’m used to,but just because I’m used to the sting and bite, doesn’t mean I should keep on getting stung and bit. That’s what I’ve been doing, what we both have been doing. I found out about MLSOMATIC last May, it’s almost been a year….and I’m still with him. Old habits, die hard and it’s especially hard, when they’re toxic as hell. He’s not good for me, he’s what I’m used to and there’s some comfort in that, as crazy as that sounds. Starting my life over is the big mountain I see before me and HG has given me my climbing gear….I just need to put them on and lace those puppies up. I do it with a heavy heart and fear tightening my throat….What does the future bring? Making the leap is the hardest step. Did I pack my parachute??
Hi Rebecca,
I want to be empathetic but I also want to give you some tough love here.
Over the years of being on the blog, I’ve seen some comments from Mr. Tudor and other bloggers that have really helped me. The first one is that everything they say or do is a manipulation. Every single thing. The second comment was, don’t take it personal because they manipulate everyone.
Maybe you’re not letting him see how his manipulations are affecting you but they still are & that’s not good for you. Thinking & talking about him is still feeding your addiction. I can feel the fog growing thicker & denser around you.
I know you’re living with abuse & that’s what’s causing your ET to rise. But until you can get out, you have to figure out how to knock your ET down enough so that the fog clears a little bit so you can think clearly.
You’re still experiencing emotions from his actions. This is where I think Zero Impact or a consult with Mr. Tudor will help. It will only be a band aid but you can at least bide your time until you can leave.
Hi Contagious,
My dad did the same when my ex left, gave me my first personal handgun. We’d always had rifles and shotguns around but not something I could conceal carry prior to that. He told me to have it on me at all times, by then he had picked up on the evil in my ex, had told me at one point right before everything hit the fan that he would not be back until it changed in my home. He didn’t know what it was but he could feel it, and he was a narc. My daughter who was at college during that time told me also she didn’t want to come again on breaks, she could feel it. They had not spoken, did not know the other had said anything. She is not a narc. I think this is why my dad got me the revolver though, he knew what my ex could’ve potentially been capable of. He knew I’d use it also, to protect my children. What’s so crazy to me is that people knew nothing about what was going on and yet they knew something was going on. When I think back on that it really freaks me out. I don’t think about it much.
Sadly, you must be trained and keep the gun ready. I locked mine away. It was a PK and it was useless after the kids were grown lol. I gave it away. I did shooting and was surprised at how good I was with a gun. I double barrows dead on first time out. But… no gun anymore. More people die by them but I recall reading about a little old lady jumped in Brooklyn. She pulled out her gun and shot him. In America… don’t assume…
Hi Victor: I think our dads just saw a different world. Mine was a Vietnam vet who lost all his college friends at Norwich. I think they meant well. Says something about us and our world view that we aren’t comfortable with guns! I think about it. But I hate them. Yet… I would want one if threatened with attack. It’s this world we live in. I lock my doors and have dogs.
Contagious, I agree, our dad’s saw a different world, for sure. Mine was also in the military, between wars so never saw combat, but also grew up in an era where guns were part of life, hunting, defending, practicing etc. I told me once that the first active shooter we heard about on the news, I think back in the 80’s, would never have made it out of his town alive just a few years earlier. As defense only, not playing judge or jury, just acting on what was happening at that moment. And it would’ve been justified and saved lives. But people have become progressively less comfortable with the idea of that, preferring to put their faith in the law. And then definitely the law. It’s a messed up world…
He told me, I didn’t tell me. Apologies, autocorrect.
Hi Contagious,
Yes, I was trained, it was easy from the training as a child. My kids were trained also. I did not carry it all the time, as my dad wanted, but it gave me a sense of security at the time. Now that my kids are grown I keep it locked up mostly. Still fun to go to the range though.
Good for you! I gave mine away when the kids left plus my US Marine son was here until recently. Went to bed without a worry;) I don’t know. I am licensed.
Hey Leigh,
Yes I agree, this is very much from HG’s perspective and as such it’s one I’m very interested in. It reminds me a little of the video ‘Can you feel me?’ which is probably my favourite HG video. That one really crawled under my skin. So I genuinely have mixed feelings about this one. It’s not that I dislike it, it’s not that I’m not interested in the way HG views the world and his interactions, more that I want to get to the bottom of why he does and also to place it in context with what we see from non psychopaths. This focuses on a more intimate view of a personal interaction, which of course I’m interested in too.
Yes, you don’t mess with mama bear, haha, agree. Although for me personally there are other triggers that would cause a desire for me to be cruel or brutal. There was a case all over the papers a while ago. It was a case of a little boy, physically abused by his parents. There was a video I saw, it was obviously taken from a camera in the room where the little boy slept. From memory he was about 4 or 5. The video showed him waking up. He slept on the floor, he had a pillow and a duvet. He woke up and the second he did, he got up and began trying to fold the duvet up. I cried my heart out for that little boy. It still upsets me now. Clearly, he knew the consequences of his mother coming in and seeing the duvet not put away. I read on through the catalogue of injuries that little boy sustained at the hands of his parents before the mother ( she might have been his stepmother, can’t remember) finally killed him. Both parents were sentenced to imprisonment and I thought to myself, “That’s not enough.” I don’t want them ever to share a joke with another prisoner, I don’t want them fed, kept warm and allowed to take regular bloody exercise. I don’t want them ever to receive a kind word or smile. I want them both to suffer, horribly, every day for the rest of their pathetic lives. If I had the opportunity, if I could, I don’t believe I would ever get tired of inflicting physical pain on those two people. I could be quite creative with it too.
I’m right at the top end of the empathy scale. So that’s ok, my empathic traits have eroded and my trigger is my need for justice, or, one of my triggers. One of HG’s triggers is boredom. Very similar imaginings, I have a vivid imagination too, and a cruel streak it seems, just fewer and different triggers for those similar thoughts to manifest. What we don’t know is if I would actually carry those thoughts out if given the opportunity. Most would say no, my emotional empathy and moral compass would kick in. I would say, “Don’t be so sure.”
That’s an empaths view, an empath, not all empaths. All of those empathic traits moderating my behaviour, a wide empathic range. So what of the normals, with their narrow empathic range? No empathy for strangers, what prevents them from harming others? Very little, we see that every day in the news. Consequences, the risk of punishment prevents chaos.
Many people imagine doing horrific things, the difference is that most don’t carry it out. So HG’s imaginings here as he listens to the person flapping their gums, don’t really shock me. I’ve thought similar, just for different reasons.
I might plan my questions a bit more though next time I speak to him. Or not, haha!
Xx
Hi TS, we has a similar situation here in NY. The little boy was 8 years old and was forced to sleep in the garage. He froze to death. The father had custody and was a cop. The mother had visitation bur he wouldn’t allow the boys to see her. There are so many people in trouble for this case because even the school complained to CPS (Child Protective Services) and the mother would complain to the court and nothing was ever done to protect this little boy. Since he was a cop & part of the brotherhood, everyone turned a blind eye.
I completely understand about prison not being enough. He got 25 years to life. I hope they torture him in there. But I can’t do the torturing. But if I heat about it, it won’t bother me in the least. Often when I hear something bad has happened to someone as evil as that, it will tickle me.
Your comment above to Witch was very enlightening. Especially the part where you say the psychopathic child won’t feel the affects of abuse the same way. That gave me pause and made me wonder, Wwhat if they aren’t abused? Then what?
I’m looking forward to more info on this subject.
Hi Leigh,
Yes I think I read about that case too. I don’t know if child cruelty is on the rise or if the accessibility of news means that we just hear about it more often. I always seem to react similarly, upset first then, when I’m done being upset, anger and fantasising about what I would like to do to the perpetrators. Often you do hear they get their punishment at the hands of other prisoners, it seems that criminals have their boundaries too as to what they view as monstrous. Same, it doesn’t concern me for a single second when I hear of that, to me it feels like justice was finally done.
Me too, looking forward to understanding more about psychopathy and from a logical source.
Xx
TS, yes I just responded to LET my thoughts on this. I agree that when I hear that these abusers have suffered or been killed at the hands of other prisoners, I considered that to be justice served.
TS & AV,
When it comes to these cases of child cruelty, I often see these people as beyond redemption. There are many more cases I have read about and somehow the punishment never seems to fit the crime. The only satisfying outcome to my mind is the death sentence. They have a chance to make their peace with God before they die. If they are not remorseful, well I’d rather not by paying my tax dollar dime on them.
LET, I go back and forth on these things with regards to the punishment of these individuals who abuse children to the point of death. On the one hand, this little boy who froze to death wasn’t shown any mercy so why should the person who took his life be given any mercy. But on the other hand, there’s a piece of me that wants these abusers to suffer the same way these children do. The truth is he probably won’t make it through prison. The prisoners will take care of it. To me, that’s a win win. Suffering and then death.
I agree LET, I don’t want them on my tax dollar and I don’t want them released ever again, the death penalty is fine for certain crimes.
Hi LET x,
Yes, agree, that’s my problem with it, the punishment doesn’t seem to fit the crime. I agree with you in terms of your tax dollar, it’s incredibly expensive to house a prisoner with a life sentence. That said, the death penalty seems too quick a punishment. That said again, prisoners are on death row for years, so maybe the tick tock of their life hanging in the balance would actually suit me better. I’ve admitted before, I’m bigger on perceived justice than I am on forgiveness or redemption. In addition, how people working in social services are allowed to get away with such blatant failures in duty of care is utterly beyond me. These kids are failed every which way, utterly heartbreaking.
Xx
Hi TS,
I like the way you describe the ‘tick tock’ of their lives spent waiting for the axe to fall. At the same time, it’s ridiculous the appeals process takes so long where perpetrators have virtually served what counts for a life sentence before they are executed. If it was me, I’d want it over and done with, so maybe there is some weight in what you say.
The failures of social services appear to be immeasurable at times. How they allow parent’s to con them, or fail to do the necessary follow up, sometimes close cases that clearly should remain open. No doubt an overburdened system adds to the difficulties encountered. When we hear the stories and fallout from that, it seems so obvious. The element of hindsight gives us a much clearer picture of what could and should have been done. It’s so depressing when you know relatives, family friends, school teachers, neighbours, have all at some point raised the alarm, yet somehow these children still fall through the cracks. They have no protection because only the state can intervene on their behalf.
I agree, it is heartbreaking that we can’t do better as a society Xx
Hi LET,
In this specific case about the little boy who froze to death, CPS did nothing. Neither did the court. The mother of this little boy had lost custody of him & his brother but she had visitation. But the father wouldn’t allow her to see them. She tried to go to the court, but since the father was a cop, they continually sided with him.
The father was sentenced in December. His fiance, who lived with him, was just sentenced about a week ago. There’s a whole investigation going on as to how this happened. The mother filed a wrongful death suit against the school, CPS, lawyers, supreme court justices, county executives because no one protected this little boy.
I agree, it is heartbreaking that as a society, we couldn’t do better.
LET,
I agree, we are failing as a society and we are failing children most of all. The more that the pillars of society crumble, the worse things will get.
There was a report released today about the Metropolitan police. It’s corrupt as hell and where it isn’t corrupt, police have such case loads their main objective is to just offload cases which likely wouldn’t even make it to prosecution. I don’t believe that every single police officer is corrupt and I feel heart sorry for the genuinely hardworking ones getting tarred with the same brush, it’s a tough and largely thankless job but it really does highlight just another failing in our society. The pillars are crumbling rapidly now. I don’t think these problems are unique to my country, I think it’s a similar story in many places.
I’m getting steadily more disillusioned by the day.
Xx
Leigh, I hope that mother takes them for every penny they’re worth. The fact that not one of those services saw fit to intervene for the sake of her child because his father was a cop tells a story all of its own. The services are so intertwined. There’s no easy way to separate them as referrals are made, though they should operate independently from one another. That element of independence will need to be looked into now as its obviously fallen short in this case, a long way short with the death of a child.
Hi LET, I agree. She’s suing for 200 million dollars. She probably won’t get it but at least everyone knows now that the system failed this little boy and maybe some of them will even lose their jobs.
Hi Leigh: years ago, I was waiting on a trial. I sat in a courtroom while the jury was polled. The bio father was in the room. He was trying to get custody as his ex got with a man who eventually killed their young son by locking him in a refrigerator. The jury was asked if any were victims of abuse. Almost all raised their hand. I saw this many times with jurors. Rape, childhood abuse, drug and alcohol abuse in the family. It is prevalent. We read about it everyday. And this is a wealthy country. Yet… there is not enough money. Plus the “ rights” issues. You handled a rape case of a girl 8 to 16. Her father was a fat greasy quiet man. She was a beautiful cheerleader. She loved him. She didn’t want to be separated. I could go on. It’s devastating that our children suffer. They have no choice being born. I followed the Madeleine Mcann case. It wasn’t until Scotland Yard got involved that the Portuguese police revealed 12 other abductions around the same time that lead to the arrest of a German pedophile rapist. The young lady who recently claimed she was Madeleine was not but another victim of pedophiles. Th dark web needs to be abolished for their sake.
Contagious, I now. Its very sad. Its devastating that so many children suffer and then on top of that they’re bonded to their abusers.
Yes, I know psychopaths are born and narcissists are made. That’s very upsetting too.
There are days when I just want to go back to putting my head back in the sand.
BTW, you may know the case I’m referring to. Its been all of the news lately. It happened on Long Island.
Hi Leigh and LET,
I have to say nothing upsets me and makes me madder than a child killer getting away with it. The system fails so many children and it’s not right. I think they should have life in prison, maybe bread and water to eat and why not throw some daily beatings in there as well, after all, it’s what they did to the child they killed or hurt, they deserve that and worse. The vengeful side I have for these people is very dark and borders on sadist. A little torture might do them some good.
I agree 100% Rebecca. Anyone who tortures a child should be tortured themselves.
I couldn’t go so far as torture outright but definitely could get on board with no creature comforts prior to their demise. And that includes their own little peckers.
Lol!
My fantasy for child abusers is of having them die slowly and in in the manner of death they caused to the child. In this case – frozen to death. I do not see them as people and want them gone. I have no interest in funding the narc dinner theatres that we call prison.
NA, the father was sentenced to 25 years to life. My hope is one of the prisoners kills him. Although, I would be ok with him be letting outside to freeze to death also.
TS, in response to your last comment, on my darkest days, when I feel like letting out my “barbaric yawp”, I listen to this:
https://youtu.be/X8mf5_2lsE8
Let’s see how far we’ve come.
LET, the song reminded me of HG’s ‘Razed To The Ground’ article.
Narc Angel, I read somewhere that the plot of Human Centipede was thought up when punishments for child abusers were being discussed.
LET,
Thank you. You have found me exactly where I’m at.
Xx
NA,
“Narc dinner theatres..” Well put, I need to remember that one!
Xx
Leigh and NarcAngel,
I want justice for those abused children, for anyone really. It makes me so fired up, when I hear about someone being abused, makes me want to inflict pain on them. I have to tell you what happened to my mother, ye, who was the black plague of my childhood, my mother. She had diabetes, took both R and N insulin, three times a day. Her blood sugar would get up to 500 or more. She was a severe diabetic, got the disease in her early 30s. She blamed me for that, said being pregnant with me caused her to be diabetic…but, it couldn’t be from her bad eating habits, her lack of exercising and her family history of the disease, that couldn’t possibly play a part in it too….No, let’s just blame my child for it all. Asshole. Anyway, her diabetes got worse because she refused to take better care of herself…eat according to a diabetic diet, not gurge on sweets and carbs, and then lay around all day….The diabetes attacked her kidneys, she had kidney failure, had to go on dialysis and take medication for that. The dialysis medicine caused her to have strokes, which caused her left side to go numb and limp. She had to go through physical therapy to regain some use in her left side. She had another stroke and that caused her not to be able to talk. She had another one that caused her to lose the mobility in her left side again, more physical therapy. The diabetes caused her to loss most of her sight, she was legally blind. She had eye surgery and on the way home, a drunk driver hit the car she was passenger in. The accident caused her retina to detach and so then her eyesight didn’t get better. Her dialysis treatment wasn’t working for her anymore, so the doctor had to connect her to a machine, by putting a rod like device into the side of her chest, to drain the fluid around her heart. She had congestive heart failure from the diabetes. She died in the hospital because she fell out of bed, with the rod in her chest. My dad wanted to sue the hospital, but his Pastor talked him out of sueing the hospital…telling him, it’s not the Christian thing to do. My dad looked up to the Pastor and did what he said. I think the Pastor was a narc, or at least narcissistic.
Anyway, she went through a lot, in the last five years of her life, karma beat the shit out of her, to be honest, it’s what I see. I felt bad for her, but part of me felt she deserved it too, and I have to live with that. I have to say, I understand why I have conflicting feelings for my mother, after all, if she had been kind to me, part of me wouldn’t feel resentment towards her. I wouldn’t feel justified in hating her some and thinking, she had it coming. After all, what kind of mother gives a 6 yr old a concussion, just for hanging out with a school friend, after school??? She totally overreacted and I should have been taken from her, but the system failed me, like it does a lot of children. It’s why I sympathize with HG and his treatment from his mother. We both had monsters for mothers, though HG’s still drawals breath. My condolences HG xx
Rebecca, it’s ok that you feel like your mother deserved what she got. I know we can have conflicting feelings when dealing with a parent.
My father was found dead in his bed. He was there for two weeks before someone found him. When it first happened, I felt tremendous guilt. Then I realized, he didn’t deserve my guilt or compassion. He certainly never showed me any compassion, why should I show him any.
In my mind, justice was served and my father got what he deserved. It’s ok if you feel that way about your mother too.
TS
<3 xox
KitKat, you’d definitely rather be dead!
Child killers would be crying out for the electric chair.
AspEmp, just read “Razed to the Ground” again at your suggestion.
Empaths do not destroy, they build up.
When your world is being razed, it is not being razed by empaths.
LET, I’d suggest that some empaths do not “build up” when they are “razing” someone to the ground via their words? Other empaths do “build up” some other people, unconditionally.
Hi Leigh,
Thank you for your understanding over my feelings for my mother, it’s not easy resenting and loving the same person,especially when they’re deceased. I use to think there was something wrong with me, not forgiving her, or completely loving her, without resentment too. I’ve come to realize, it wasn’t me who wasn’t right. A mother shouldn’t treat her child like that, she was wrong.
I’m sorry you had to hear about your father that way. My sympathies for your pain and how he treated you. Xx My brother was found dead in bed too. The police thought he’d been murdered and did an autopsy on him. He died in his sleep, from his third heart attack. It was a massive one, one I felt and it woke me up. I’ll never forget that feeling. I mourned him, cried like a baby and I still miss him and cry sometimes, despite everything, he was still my brother and I love him.
I did the ND on my brother and I got the results back. I was right, he’s not normal. He’s not a narcissist. He was a psychopath. I was surprised because I thought he was a narcissistic psychopath. He’s a psychopath. It explains a lot. I have a lot of questions for HG about him. How did he see me?? Did he think he loved me?? Did he love me?? Was he aware he wasn’t normal? Why did he defend me a couple of times?? I’m hoping I can get my answers from HG, he’s my only hope for the answers. Xx
Rebecca, what a coincidence that we bought have family members who were found dead in there bed. They were alone in the end and that’s a direct result of how they treated people.
I’m sorry to hear the news that your brother was a psychopath. I hope you get the answers you need from Mr. Tudor.
I really hope you find peace one day, Rebecca.
*both* not bought
Hi TS
Funny enough, I could say my trigger would be justice. Slightly different from your own reasoning tho. For me as long as the sentence befits the crime (in my eyes), I feel that is sufficient. Perhaps my knowledge of the prison system allows me to feel like this and my view that living in one is a greater punishment than the nothingness of death. Death would be an escape they do not deserve.
My problem kicks in when I do not feel the sentence reflects justice.
With normals and their capacity for empathy = I can tell you there is a crime curve. It surges in young men aged 17 to 25 (rising mid-way between these ages). One of the reasons (not the only reason) given on why it reduces beyond this age group – is men tend to settle down and have families. Perhaps it is the ties that bind them to those they care about that contain other inclinations.
Hi Enthralled,
Yes, I agree prison is a better option than ‘the nothingness of death’. It’s interesting what you said about the crime curve, it could also be a case of reduced opportunity / reduced privacy due to cohabitation / marriage. It also made me question the role testosterone might play.
I have heard it said from a couple of different sources that psychopaths unlike narcissists are known to mellow or ‘improve’ as they age. I have never once seen testosterone levels offered as a reason for that though. Perhaps opportunity ties in, the general physical and mental ageing process, I don’t know. It’s not that they become ‘nicer’ or less ‘psychopathy’ haha, just less impulsive perhaps. They don’t require the Prime Aims in the same way as narcissists so I don’t think it’s necessarily a switch to different manipulations. Both instances I heard it they were more or less throwaway comments, no detail or evidence was given to support it, but it does kind of make sense.
Enthrall don’t worry in the US they give them blue bands and try to protect them from the populace. They don’t:)
Hi Leigh: psychopaths are born that way. It’s a brain wiring. Narcs are created. You can be a loving family and have a psychopath. Think Jeffrey Dahlmer. There is a movie called my son Kevin. It’s about a normal couple who bear a psychopath. Heartbreaking. Of course an unstable family won’t help…
Hi Contagious, I don’t think Jeffrey Dahmer had a loving, healthy family but more of an LOCE. I think that he would’ve been what he was even if he had and that he may not have killed people had he had a healthy family, but he may still have also.
Hi AV, I did some research on Jeffrey Dahmer last night. I remember hearing that he wasn’t physically or sexually abused as a child but that seemed odd to me. How could that be? Upon further research, it seems his mother suffered from depression and often neglected him. . He was often left to his own devices. Ding, Ding, Ding! There’s the LOCE. He might not have suffered from physical or sexual abuse but there was most definitely psychological abuse.
Hi Leigh, yes, that fits with what was portrayed in the series I recently watched about him. His dad tried, I believe, but his mom struggled. If portrayed accurately, I saw it as LOCE, absolutely.
Jeffrey Dahmer wasn’t a psychopath. He was diagnosed with BPD and schizotypal personality disorder.
He also had an operation for a scrotum hernia as a small child. Apparently his behaviour changed after that…..
Thank you for this Anna. HG says most BPD is actually narcissism, which isn’t surprising for Dahmer. And schizophrenia is one of the top mental illnesses that serial killers are diagnosed with, along with BPD and ASPD, maybe others also but these are the main ones I came across. Interesting. Thank you for pointing that out, he didn’t seem like the typical psychopath but he wasn’t normal either.
Leigh, a long time ago I told a friend of mine (normal), that if there was an emergency situation and some men wanted to harm my daughter – I would do anything to distract them, suck one by one and act provocatively like a whore or like an angel of innocence. I would do whatever they wanted (while looking for a way out of this situation).
He looked at me surprised and did not understand (he was a childless man at the time).
To me, it’s clear – I’ll do anything to protect her. And when I write everything – I mean EVERYTHING.
As long as it didn’t involve by me harming someone innocent. Then I’d have a problem.
Joa, it’s interesting because I think my instinct would be for me to step in the middle and take on the brunt of the attack. That’s how I’ve done things in the past. When my father was on his rampage, I would get him to focus on me instead of my disabled brother. But I didnt fight back. I don’t know if I could kill or inflict pain.
But I’m sure if it was life or death, my natural instincts would kick in.
Leigh, most people imagine defense as heroic acts, killing the perpetrator, etc. But in real life situations, you often don’t have that option. The perpetrator(s) will not wait for you to prepare with the weapon, they will not make it easier for you to attack, and you will not always be in a familiar place.
I can’t handle weapons. In my country, only security forces, hunters, shotgun brothers, sport shooters and a few rich people own guns. And very well!
I believe I could kill if I failed to protect my daughter by my methods and she was harmed – in real time. Only if I knew I could do it effectively and not cause her any more harm.
Killing someone innocent to protect my daughter – probably NOT.
—–
Yes, I have also stood up for others many times. Always effective. When I’m defending someone else, there’s something about me that makes them back down from their previous intentions.
I always start by focusing attention on myself – in very different ways – I sense what will interest them. Usually that’s enough.
If I fail, I move on to other methods, unfortunately also strength ones, even when it is a much stronger man. Everything depends on the assessment of the situation – I choose the method that seems to me at this moment, in this situation, towards this person – the most appropriate.
Joa, your comment that they back off from their previous intentions, makes me think that they got what they were after in the first place. Fuel!
It also reminded me of an incident with my father and brother. It was after my father came back so I was in my twenties. I just happen to walk in and my father had a broom in his hand and was about to go after my brother. I told him, “if you hit my brother with that broom. I’m going to pick it up next and beat you with it.” He backed off.
What stopped them was our fuel output. We give lots of fuel. They got what they wanted so they backed off. My loud mouth has saved me and others many times in the past. Thank you for reminding me of that.
There is a spectrum for psychopaths. My ex was diagnosed antisocial. He is no killer but he is a criminal. I immediately thought Ted Bundy etc… in my child custody battle but I was actually told that criminals can be good fathers but the love the nurture would have to come from me. She was right. The jails are filled with antisocials not all kill. Most just have no regard for rules, laws, or norms. Their emotional range is as HG said. I saw this first hand. I also had no drama while my ex was a cheat, a liar and a crook, he was a calm presence. No fighting. Calm and cool always until the divorce. He would even say there were two ways of doing things: legal and not. He had no friends. Trusts no one. Rich and isolated. Always calculating. Children are wanted as heirs. He wanted 9 boys lol. If they do well, he takes credit and favors them. He has little to do with child care but let them live in a mansion then kick them out at 18. But they will inherit. They are his legacy. His. When he says jump, you jump. Total control. Sex is not as good with a psychopath as with a narc. Psychopaths have limited range of emotion even cognitive emotion in bed. It’s routine, payment for rent. They don’t care about fuel. They want their goals to be achieved. Money. Power. Women are just cogs in a wheel. Turn your head you get to live her. Do as I say. Give me a baby. Take care of my house. “ not my job”. This was the norm in the Newport coast community that included Kobe and David Nelson as neighbors. The mothers club would talk about putting condoms in their Fortune 500 cover husbands suitcases as they traveled… some 4th or 5th wives. It was nauseating at times listening to the talks about what preschool in the same sentence as getting into Harvard or watching the men’s infidelity in front of your driveway and what these women accepted for money. I left. But they say most CEOs are psychopaths. From a room with a Birds Eye view once. Yes. Also I have seen it as a lawyer, my client who makes 100 million must sleep with one eye open. There are only 6 companies in the world that can build bridges that involve international cargo. And they must join to bid. An insurance policy can be 10 million cash. I counseled the CEO and project manager of one. I believe that those who reach the top are psychopaths. The decisions you have to make on socio economic issues, environmental issues…and go forward regardless. Yup
Contagious, I was the nanny, in my mind. There was no working together on anything. You described the sex perfectly. The calm also. It was unusual for yelling, usually if there was, it was from me and he was very good at triggering this. But we went many years where there was none. Mine has a lot of friends, he was very charming, but all of his friends either used each other or were used. And my ex didn’t need any of them. I think he is a sociopath, so a little different. Reading your comment though really took me back.
I think your instincts are right on!!!
Hi Contagious, well, I learned that HG would tell us if he picked up on psychopathy in the NDC, and he didn’t say anything in my ex’s results, so I guess my instincts were off. I’m a little confused because the definition of antisocial in HG’s Misused Word video describes my ex but there must be some difference. I know he’s a narcissist and that’s bad enough. So I’ll go with that for now.
Hi Contagious,
How do you know your ex was a psychopath? Was he diagnosed as one? I’m confused right now but only a little. Thank you and if you don’t feel comfortable to answer, I understand.
Yes Victor. When I left him, he sued me for full custody. This is a man who never changed a diaper or did any child rearing as that was “ my job.” Mind you, I left my partnership as a lawyer making 250,000 at the time to care for the children. He insisted but I wanted too. Always a mom first. We suffered a two year battle and I was awarded 80% custody as the top counselor in Orange County ( affluent ) found him to be an antisocial. After the hearing before trial, at this point I had used up my savings and represented myself… may I say well lol. BUT I was upset over the 20% and her diagnosis as I thought antisocial meant Ted Bundy level psychopath. She explained that many antisocials are criminals and can be good fathers. She even mentioned the Sopranos! I was not reassured but as time went on… she was right. We co parented very well without talking. I paid for everything although he was much richer. He showed up. Oddly he favors my daughter and was quite proud as if every achievement was his own. But hey, we did well
Contagious, thank you for sharing, that is interesting. I’m glad it all turned out well.
Contagious
” I counseled the CEO and project manager of one. I believe that those who reach the top are psychopaths. The decisions you have to make on socio economic issues, environmental issues…and go forward regardless. Yup”
You are correct. CEO is in the top 10 of top jobs for psychopaths.
One of the main reasons the world is in the state it is if you ask me…
I read a study once Anna and it’s 1 out of 3. And yes….why change anything that works for you. In the USA about 65% of the land and 75% of corporate wealth is owned by private families or 1%. I recall a bill that every family that bought a hybrid or electric car could deduct it from taxes. Dead. At the same time expansive oil drilling in Alaska was approved. Why create a better world if you lose money? Most people don’t know that banks are often one person. One family. And investors of mortgages maybe 1-2. We can’t change anything because our leaders are puppets. Who is a better puppet vote? I think Mother Nature or a nuclear war may change everything. When Covid shut everything down there was a grab by the 1% of land and stock in US by 10%. I read an article about UK. But anarchy came close in USA. Police stations burned. A run on the capital. We don’t live in times of mass starvation of the past. Food is plentiful but processed and making people fat. Opiates are drugging masses. The days of a coup like the French Revolution is not likely. Iran is an example it can happen but…. Not over. But if Mother Nature continues to rage and if China and USA or North Korea or? there is a chance horribly things will change. My hope is on the youth. The Greta’s out there. In the USA the majority llenlisls are the first generation not to accede their parents in wealth due to crippling college loans, the cost of inflation and cost of housing. Those basics the middle class held dear. I saw this Times correspondent give a speech and bought her book and she said the younger generation is coming. I hope so before my belief that there will be a level field but because of mass environmental issues or war. This cannot continue.
I agree 100% Contagious. It cannot carry on like this.
Apparently the bubonic plague created the middle class. So many of the surfs/peasants died, that the ones who remained could ask the rich ruling classes to finally be paid for their labour!
I have wondered how many empaths and normals would step up to get things done if narcs and others with mental illness didn’t come along and push them down. Like, I’ll recognize an empathic man, he’ll be there one the narc pushes out of the way to get to me, as an empath. I have often just kept my thoughts to myself because others run rough-shod over things. But not all of my thoughts have necessarily been ineffective ones.
I think the main difference between aspd and a narcissist is the need for fuel. Otherwise there are quite an amount of similarities, one can have many cross traits. When it comes to personal intimate relationships then narcissism becomes more prevalent, especially when maintaining control. One of my favorite lines from HG is along the lines of why don’t you date a non empath, ‘they don’t cut the mustard so to speak’ 😆
Yes they won’t hang on as tight and bleed fuel, the only time a narc may similate that is if your leaving before they are ready but even then the taste isn’t the same as ‘roast empath’ 😆
I think it is more to do with the fact that empaths are so kind and do not give up like a normal person would. They believe in true love, they want to save. They keep “bleeding love” like the song by “Leona Lewis” in fact I believe this song to be a perfect example of an empath in love with a narcissist. People try to warn them, but they do not accept it.. they bleed love. They are full of light, see only the good.
A true good psychopath or narcissist who can control themselves (like HG) would protect their empath from the darkness and evil of the world. That is the ultimate control.
Controlling yourself.
Demons are after all just fallen angels… just saying!
Food for thought…
Knowing many from a military background (special forces/ RAF/grenadier guards). I wonder if a certain type of person is attracted these jobs – or the training pushes people into a certain direction? I know people who have killed – not illegally tho. No criminal records at all. Loyalty, lots of banter – but not always solving things in what others may consider socially acceptable ways. No fear and use of intimidation (training?). Protective and none are narcissists – thay can be stubbon jerks tho.
This is an interesting comment Enthralled, it makes sense to me that at least some could be psychopaths. It seems like a line of work that could interest them certainly.
Enthralled. I was worried as my son had wanted to be in the military from age 3. He joined out of high school at 18. He went to Iraq. My son was made the highest rank Sergeant and is very popular among his troops. I was worried as he is taught to KILL. I consulted HG. Would the military take my compassionate honest decent sin and turn him. HG explained NO. And let me tell you the narcs and psychopaths don’t always do well. It’s a brotherhood. If your brothers don’t feel you are part of the team as my son would say we would leave him in a ditch to die. The military is filled with RULES and I doubt psychopaths would do well with obeying rules of any kind unless…that is their goal. No doubt the military has them as they have jobs just like every civilian society. But even trump had resistance from the military when he tried to use them as his own personal guard. They said call the national guard. I know someone high up in the pentagon and many family members who made careers at military. They tend to be disciplined militants. Straight shooters. Not those who look to get around rules. But kill. Yep. They will. My son once wondered his purpose without a war. I said without you, without the USA military what do you think would happen to the USA? Your trained bodies and minds keep it running whether war or not. And let me tell you, they are fit, trained and ready. What they put our boys through: simulation, training in every form of weapon, sleeping in every condition, living on powered food, hiking unto your feet bleed… you have no idea folks! It’s the scary reality. You matter! Sorry folks but I must say God Bless our Marines!
Contagious, your son did very well in the Marines! That is no easy task! It shows that not all high ranking military people are narcs or psychopaths, that is great to know! Thank you for sharing that. And I thank him for his service.
Thank you Victor! I think it’s important to know that our military… the best in the world is not a group of trained killers but men and women who give up their lives to protect our country. My son is embarrassed when people say “ thank yiy0 as he sees being bullied need at Iraq as nothing, not a war against what did he do? I tell him what if you did not exist or men or women like you? Where would we be? Your very existence the world knows. Your training the world knows. You matter! Hey guys enlistment is down! Staying in the military is down. Not in China…..
Hi Contagious,
You are correct lots of rules to follow. I have no idea how this would impact a psychopath – depending on how high functioning they were.
Bless both you and your boy and lets raise a glass to peace 🙂
The one upside is your boy should forge long term relationships with guys who will always have his back – an extended family of sorts.
Enthralled. Deepest thanks as he just made Sergeant and was deployed again. I think it’s important for people everywhere to know: my son is embarrassed by the thank you for the service he gets. He hates it. He feels there is nothing real war. So what have I done? Well he was binned in Iraq. His best friend in Syria. But I tell him that’s not what matters. I pause to tell you wgmhat he said in Iraq. I said “ were you scared?” He said “ yea my adrenaline was up but we are trained to run to danger not away from it.” Take that. My response is without you. War or no war. Where would we be? They know you are trained and expect st! He smiled. 8 years in. Highest rank he can achieve. Cheap zen. I said “ how?0 He says he is popular! Btw military enlistment and careers down. Beware.
I wrote about this in detail Enthralled and consulted HG because my son wanted military at age 3 on… thanks Call of Duty? My compassionate, strong, level headed loyal friend, great son was going to be trained to kill. HG explained that the military does not create narcs etc… He reassured me. And it didn’t. But… when my son was bombed in Iraq, I asked him. Were you afraid? He said we are trained to run to danger not away from it. My son was promoted to the highest rank he could achieve. I asked why? He said hard work and he was popular last among his brothers. We once spoke of a military man that the platoon hated sue to his unjust and mistreatment of others. My son said none of the men would help him if lying in a ditch at war bleeding. It was a saying not a reality….BUT I don’t think you will do well if a narc or antisocial with your brothers. It requires deep empathy for one and another. Sorry but I have seen what training they go through in the US Marines… bleeding feet etc… we would be nowhere without these fine men and women and despite technology, we will always need boots on the ground
* not do well
Strangely, I came across a comment under a Jeffrey Dahmer YT video which listed numerous serial killers and the fact they had all served in the military at one time or another. It was remarkable. Here’s the list:
Arthur Shawcross (enlisted in army)
Anthony Sowell(enlisted U.S Marine Corp)
Jeffrey Dahmer(enlisted in army)
David Berkowitz(enlisted in army
Dean Corll(enlisted in army)
Dennis Nilsen(enlisted in army)
Gary Heidnik (enlisted in army)
Robert Lee Yates(enlisted in army)
Wesley Dodd(joined the Navy)
Richard Allen Davis(enlisted in army)
John Allen Muhammad(Washington Sniper)
Timothy McVeigh (Oklahoma City Bombing)
Dennis Rader(Joined U.S Air force)
Randy Kraft (Joined U.S Air force)
Russell Williams ( Colonel in Canadian Force)
Gary Ridgway (Joined the Navy)
Roy Norris (Joined the Navy)
Charles Whitman(Enlisted in U.S Marine Cor)
Leonard Lake(Enlisted in U.S Marine Corps)
Charles Ng Immigrant (In U.S Marine Corps)
Army, Airforce, Navy, Marine Corps.
Seems like a bit of a chicken and egg situation, though for the most part it could be assumed their psychopathy was in place before they joined. Joining may have just honed their skills. Mind Control was mentioned. Conspiracy theories.
HG, this article is great but makes me feel like we are reading about a modern day vampire and I want to pass the telephone number of Buffy the Vampire Slayer onto Shieldmaiden. My heart goes out to Shieldmaiden. Your honesty is refreshing and gives great foresight. Shieldmaiden sounds lovely, treat her like a queen, she deserves the very best of you. (I know you will pay no attention, but I have to say it anyway).
Best,
DB
In my opinion many “victims” are not victims of normal narcissists but of psycopathic narcissists.
Demons in human bodies. Males and females bodies.
Hi Black Phoenix: agreed. Different demons same result.
Black Phoenix
You are so right
Even their eyes turn black when they do something bad. I heard this comes from adrenaline. It makes the pupils larger. Thus their eyes look like they are black, almost taking on a demonic like appearance. One if my exes eyes turned black when we were having sex. It was terrifying to say the least…
This is interesting, I would’ve said just the opposite, more are victimized by psychopaths with narcissism and also pure narcissists than by pure psychopaths. 100% of narcissists abuse in some way out another, I don’t believe that is necessarily true for pure psychopaths, not 100% of them anyway. I almost think the pure psychopaths are a little safer, possibly. Also possibly easier to identify and then adjust “treatment” earlier?
Hi Victor: I started my career as a DA. I disagree. Sadists are the worst. But psychopaths have zero conscience and no need for fuel. They are goal oriented. Sex. Power. Money. Serial killers are psychopaths.
Okay, thanks Contagious, I appreciate that.
At least narcs need fuel.
It would do well to remember that the information we are privy to is deliberate and calculated.
None of it threatens The Ultra’s control.
As with any narcissist, to presume full transparency is a dangerous conviction.
HG would hardly reveal if he were Jack The Rippering his way across London.
RE: your last sentence, I believe HG has been following ‘The Ten Commandments’, No 6. You must not commit murder. 😉
Yes, HG may be delivering his work by being “deliberate and calculated” in a way that remains accurate and maintains the goals of his Legacy, empowering empaths and ensuring that everything that he set out to do is “legally everything is done” (Livestream September 2022), without letting on to those that ‘created’ him. Refer to HG’s article ‘Dolus Malus’.
The actual 15, nay, 10 commandments, or HG’s own personalized 10 commandments?
(Bonus points if you get the reference)
I do get the reference, KK.
“ HG would hardly reveal if he were Jack The Rippering his way across London”
He may not reveal it here, but he isn’t. his facade, his work, his primary source, his freedom are all things he obviously wants to maintain, which is why he has found other ways to meet the prime aims.
He even said he chose to attend therapy partly because of the threat of being reported to the police for something he claims he didn’t do, but let’s be real, maybe he did and that’s part of the reason. I’m not naive enough to believe that HG as never told us a lie or two to protect himself.
Agreed, of course he’s not a serial killer, I mostly thought it would be funny to say ‘Rippering’.
Murder is over much too quickly.
Once it’s done it’s done.
HG is too smart and creative for that.
He’s more like a cat playing with a mouse….only he leaves them alive and wounded so they have a lifetime of rueing the day they wronged him.
Which I have a feeling I may be doing if I keep making jokes that don’t come across as such. No disrespect meant, HG.
I note that.
Thank you sir. I’m not nearly as funny as I think I am. Hour God is a merciful one
HG most people are think psychopaths are serial killers. Or killers. Not all are. Not all are sadists either. We need more information on this page to avoid the leaps to portrayals on TV. Thank you!
Contagious
“HG most people are think psychopaths are serial killers. Or killers. Not all are. Not all are sadists either. We need more information on this page to avoid the leaps to portrayals on TV. Thank you!”
You are so right Contagious. They are not all criminals or serial killers, they do however leave a wake of pain and destruction following them. They are worse than narcissists. Similar to locusts stripping everything bare then flying off to find another source to strip bare. Plague, pestulance. Much like the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse.
Actually Sonnet 94 by William Shakespeare comes to mind. I have no idea why….
“They That Have Power To Hurt, And Will Do None”
They that have power to hurt, and will do none,
That do not do the thing they most do show,
Who, moving others, are themselves as stone,
Unmoved, cold, and to temptation slow;
They rightly do inherit heaven’s graces,
And husband nature’s riches from expense;
They are the lords and owners of their faces,
Others, but stewards of their excellence.
The summer’s flower is to the summer sweet,
Though to itself, it only live and die,
But if that flower with base infection meet,
The basest weed outbraves his dignity:
For sweetest things turn sourest by their deeds;
Lilies that fester, smell far worse than weeds.”
Anna, RE: about psychopaths you say “They are worse than narcissists”. Rubbish! How many psychopaths are there compared to narcissists? How many empaths / other victims in the whole world are there because of narcissism / narcissists? KTN blog is about narcissism, why did HG create it?
Agree Contagious. I have been in a situation recently where a diagnosed psychopath outclassed my emotional empathy in debate through using logic and highly developed cognitive empathy.
I thought that was interesting because as empaths we hold our emotional empathy in such high regard. Yet, in this debate the approach of the psychopath would have been of greater benefit to society or more accurately, would have safeguarded the rights of people in society, far more effectively than my so called empathic approach. Emotional empathy can actually get in the way of decision making for the greater good. Psychopaths have been portrayed as only one thing for so long though it’s likely very difficult to get behind that.
Hi TS, another interesting comment, good food for thought.
It made me wonder if the psychopath you were debating against was one of the extremely intelligent ones, not saying more than you are at all, just that combining that with their laser focus and lack of empathy, I could see it being quite challenge.
I wonder about the emotional empathy part. When my children were growing up, I often had to make the more logical choice with regard to their best interest, especially when it came to discipline of some sort. I could not, in my empathy, allow them to just get away with things because the result from doing that would’ve been horrible for them. So I had no choice but to almost leverage my empathy for their future rather than show the here and now to be left unchecked, out of empathy also but it was a fake empathy? Kicking the can down the road empathy? It would’ve caught up with them eventually, had I not trained as I went along and the results, consequences, would’ve likely been worse than anything I would’ve administered as discipline.
The one difference for me in this is that I’m much less concerned about the greater good of society, safeguarding rights, yes, but beyond that, live and let live is my philosophy. It is where a narcissist would not let it go like this, they want to implement controls. I can be quite effective at digging in my heels though if those controls will, will eventually, step on the rights that are protected already. Maybe in the US it is different than The UK, I don’t know what protections rights have in the UK. But the basics here, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, need to be left alone by narcs and psychopaths or they will have a fight on their hands eventually.
@Asp Emp
Obviously you have never met a psychopath. Oh my dear Asp Emp. A psychopath is far worse than a narcissist. They are the nightmare of a nightmare. Narcissists tend to have cognitive empathy. The feel shame. A Psychopath feels nothing. Indeed, you are less likely to meet one. You are right. There are more narcissists around
I respect your opinion, and I pray you never meet a psychopath in your life.
I have met both and I can tell you a psychopath is much much worse.
Mr. Tudor, this articles says to me that at any given moment, if it no longer serves your purpose, you can stop being pro-social and if you deemed it necessary, you could even be harmful.
I just wanted to say that I’m very grateful that it still serves your purpose to be pro-social and helpful. Thank you.
You are welcome.
And fortunate.
We certainly are fortunate!
The emptiness is a state of mind, almost as if there are levels, if you get stuck on this like a muscle spasm you will be caught up in that game and play accordingly. Empaths play the role of empaths and do it wonderfully so, all roles are essential to make what is. One who is aware will reconcile those within him and move on, nothing will contain him not even the illusion of perception. SoThen what is this game we are playing? 🙂
Patrick: psychopaths want what they want. You are best to get away and hope they move on. They are the ultimate predators, there is no reasoning. There is no hope. They are born that way.
No one knows what it’s like to be the bad man
To be the sad man
Behind Blue Eyes
… The Who
https://youtu.be/uA2zODu1nJw
Thank you HG for sharing this side of you.
What about you and physical pain or emotional pain (feeling “wounded”)?
Or a mix of different difficult emotions like feeling jealous? For normal people it is a mix, I guess for you it is just fury? Hot fury, cold fury?
I do not understand your questions, you will need to rephrase them.
What you describe in your work as the feeling or being wounded isn’t that emotional pain? And isn’t emotional pain a feeling? If so to which of the main five emotions you talked about in this article does it belong?
What you call fury or hatred belongs to the main emotion anger. Fury and hate are just stronger than anger (feeling f.e. irritated is much weaker than feeling angry but it belongs to the main emotion anger). Feeling jealous is for normal people a mix of the emotions sadness, fear and anger. How does feeling jealous feels for you?
Jealousy could manifest as fear for some narcissists, for me, it would be linked to disgust and fury.
And emotional pain?
For me it is linked with sadness. When there is so much sadness that it becomes painful…
To get an easy acess to your emotions here are words that link to the four main emotions:
feeling sad: “What a pity…”
feeling anxious: “This is terrible.” or “This causes concerns for me.” (feeling ashamed: “I am wrong.”)
feeling angry: “This is wrong.” or “This goes over my bounderies.”
(feeling hatred: “This is absolutely wrong! You are absolutely wrong. You have no right to exist at all!”)
feeling joyful: “This is right, this is beautiful.”
All the other feelings belong to one of these four emtions or are an (individual) mix of it. F. e. feeling ashamed: “I am wrong.” can link to sadness and/or fear.
You can make a scale from 1 to 10 to explain to other people (and find out for yourself) how strong or weak you feel or felt a certain emotion and you can find out by what this emotion was caused (f. e. what somebody did or said, a thought of you, a perception/oberservation you had). In this way you get to know yourself and others better and better.
Because emotions are messages of your ego and your true Self.
I was watching Luther (the movie) and thinking of HG, when all of a sudden Idris Elba exclaims “Tickety boo.” My heart sank. And then, this…
SP, now that you mention Idris. I have watched him in the series ‘Luther’ (I quite enjoy it). I was also watching him quite intently in his series ‘Fight Club’ and I was also observing those that took part in the programme.
He has many skills, among them, he is also a very good DJ.
Luther was a fantastic movie. Very well done. It never ceases to amaze me though how sadistic and twisted some human beings are. How they really enjoy inflicting pain on others. I have never understood this. I think it is the definition of “evil” to enjoy someone elses pain.
Luther was a very good movie.
It makes me sad though, that some people are so evil, sick and sadistic. That they enjoy hurting others for pleasure. It basically sums evil up. Andy Serkis did an excellent job in portraying the character “David Robey” Especially how he installed fear into people and controlled them. It sent a shiver down my spine.
In fact, I haven’t finished watching it.
Idris really gave me the ick when he tried to be a rapper 🤣
I never saw that, just his electronic sessions.
Dearest Sweet,
I noticed that and thought the same too, haha
The best part of the movie for me was when Mrs Robey described her husband “ he’s a good man” ….Mr Bubbles n I both laughed out together. That was hilarious 🤣
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Happiness and joy. It must be sad not to experience these emotions, but then they say you never miss what you haven’t had.
The sociopath, is made not born. They know what joy and happiness is. Then trauma kills. Strips those emotions. Leaving an empty void. Some maybe able to turn them on and off. Sometimes doing controlled emotions. (for example a sad song or film to experience sadness or grief).
HG. Does it make you feel good and satisfied when you experience fury, but are able to quell the flame? The fact that you are in absolute control. Does it make you feel good?
You say you are a narcissistic psychopath, so you were born this way? Or did you once experience happiness and joy? have you felt it once?
If you can spot a narcissist you can spot a potential psychopath. Some are highly sociable and likable as in my brother’s case. Some are loners and quirky. Time and proximity is what unmasks them. You spend enough time around them and know about npd you get to see the entitlement and the total disregard for certain people. You over time being around many narcissists can sense it like a bad smell. You can pick them out a mile away. Knowing which would kill is another story. My brother i suspect has killed indirectly and gotten away with it. Why he did so i have my theories that are now 16 years later surfacing to me and i think his ex wife as well. I think she knows a lot but has remained silent for their sons sake.
Psychopaths are just narcissists further on the npd spectrum. They are from a different world because their brain is wired so differently.
Also, if their family tells you they’ve always been different, take it to heart. No sense in waiting around to discover if they’re one who would kill.
As mothers we can keep things to ourselves but it can be incredible how much the kids figure out on their own. I’ve been sadly surprised by some of these things much later on.
They are bed wetters until 12. They kill animals or torture them. They are kids with no conscience or empathy. There is a movie “ call me Kevin” I think about it. It’s heart breaking as no cure. At best they can learn to follow rules and laws better.
Contact,
Do you believe all of them do all of these things? I will see if I can find that movie. It is heartbreaking to us, I don’t think it is to them. I think at best they can become surgeons or lawyers or get into other types of professions where a lack of empathy can be a boon. Or HG, who has helped many in the process of building his legacy. Many do these types of positive things. Thankfully.
I think the movie Contact is referring to is called “We Need to Talk About Kevin” which highlights and raises questions about psychopathy in childhood and young adulthood. It’s a fascinating film and TS and I had a discussion about it here some time ago when pondering the issue of psychopathy. It’s the intransigent element of psychopathy that really stood out for me in that movie, and the fact it was possible to consider childhood factors being an element even though it cannot currently be diagnosed prior to the age of eighteen. Definitely worth a watch.
LET, yes, it is that intransigence that made me hesitate before writing that LOC would likely affect them. I think, and I’m speculating which I hate doing, it can in the sense that it can direct their actions toward good or bad potentially, not that it alters the status of the psychopathy. Or that it makes them less capable of doing anything, just more or less supported toward good or bad.
Thank you for the info on the movie. I always hesitate to take things from Hollywood, or other entertainment media, for actual accuracy on these things, unless it’s a documentary with professionals. They are fun to watch sometimes as long as I can separate the truth from fiction.
AV, I know what you are getting at in terms of the LOCE, and I tend to think of it the same way. A psychopath in a non-LOCE environment is potentially less likely to act out in the same manner they would coming from a LOCE or severely LOCE environment. It may temper the psychopathy in terms of the environment. In other words, the worse the environment, the worse the psychopath, not sure if that’s a little too simplistic. Psychopaths seem to all have the same propensity to do harm – glib charm enabling manipulation, lack of empathy and remorse creating a lack of consideration for others, etc – but do they all act on that in a manner to do the greatest harm? They are wide open to predatory influence, what stops them from doing more harm than good?
Raising more questions than I’m answering!
I would have to agree, the state of psychopathy cannot be altered, therefore making it intransigent, but serving the predators interests while aligning that with a greater good is perhaps a possibility. It would be a rare case, I think, and a little like to scorpion and the frog tale where the scorpion promises not to sting the frog. In that sense it’s probably a case of ‘watch your back’ as the predatory nature will not consider you if it doesn’t suit it do so.
When it comes to the movie that was mentioned, it teases out a scenario with a psychopathic child where the mother is central to the story. I thought it was an excellent study of the complexity of relationships that can exist in that type of scenario and the heartbreak that can also ensue. You might find it interesting, AV. To suggest you might enjoy it is probably taking things a step too far. Very hard to ‘enjoy’ the concept of a psychopathic child.
Hi LET, your questions are all ones I have wondered also, I suppose we may know when HG writes more.
I was thinking more about the boredom, which may stem from the emptiness? I think the need to fill the boredom being directed to things that would be beneficial as opposed to the child being left to his/her own devices to fill their boredom. I think that may be a piece of it.
I think of Jeffrey Dahmer again, not sure his makeup, maybe completely off. But his dad trying to focus him on dissecting dead animals, had that home been less LOCE, maybe Jeffrey would’ve used that skill to solve crimes or be a surgeon or… Whatever? His curiosity seemed in some ways to drive his actions and were not focused toward positive, to us, things with enough consistency.
As you, more questions than answers, at this point. It is interesting.
Oh and also, what if these kids do these things out of curiosity, not out of badness? As in the torture of animals, they don’t see it as such, I don’t think. Or lighting of fires, is it always to destroy it is it, at least initially, curiosity and filling boredom?
Hi AV,
Your comment raises more interesting questions and I’ll share some thoughts around that while referencing back to HG’s article.
My thought around the emptiness mentioned by HG is that what exists is a virtual vacuum. Something needs to fill that vacuum. It is an emptiness or boredom that can only be filled with an unfeeling enterprise, or a manipulative con job, because we know that the psychopath has no empathic connection to us. Here is what HG said:
“I care not for you. You are to become mine and I shall possess you, ready to distract and chase away the ever present boredom. I feel that first flicker of anticipation as the game begins as you turn and already my crystal blue stare and welcoming smile have caused you to notice me and await my attendance on you. Already you are caught in my tractor beam and savour the lifting of the ennui as I prepare to feast on you.”
In other words, let the games begin. For the purposes of amusement, entertainment, distraction, power, promotion, prominence. What needs to be factored in is that none of this is done with consideration of others in mind. Whatever the psychopath does is done for them and their purposes, which I assume can allow for the possibility of benefit to others in certain circumstances. From my perspective, this is not to be mistaken for any kind of sentiment on their part and that’s probably what I hope to avoid by having this conversation. They are not sentimental creatures. Their likeness to others comes from their ability to imitate, not truly enjoin.
When it comes to Dahmer, I didn’t know his father had him dissect animals, and I can’t understand that at all, so now I’m wondering about his father and a genetic component to the psychopathy. My own take on issues around curiosity and not understanding the implications of their actions is probably along the lines of knowing they are causing harm, finding delight in that and this either alleviating their sense of boredom, or exciting them in the sense of a game. Personally, I wouldn’t ascribe this lack of morality to innocence. I think it can be ascribed to the void or emptiness. Regardless, it is necessary to hold the psychopath accountable.
I appreciate you helping me tease out some more thoughts around this.
Hi LET,
Yes, I agree, there can be no effective predating if the is any connection or bond to the prey. It is only for them that they do it. No sentiment. This is why they are chilling to me. It doesn’t matter what they display, they are still, always, capable of predating. If they get bored, look out.
I agree also, they imitate only to further their goals, not to join in.
A lack of morals is exactly what we’re talking about here. Whatever they find that will alleviate the boredom, fill the emptiness, it can be done. I don’t know that they know what will suffice to alleviate and fill initially, but once it’s done, they do. I believe they can learn this very young also. And they have no guilt or remorse for having learned it nor for taking it forward. Is it possible that it is a drive in them from birth to do things we don’t think of? I don’t know. Is it possible that if they are never allowed opportunity to discover negative ways to alleviate the boredom, they will find ways that may not be harmful to others? I don’t know.
Yes, very necessary to hold them accountable, I agree.
HI LET & AV, Jeffrey Dahmer’s father was a scientist & a school teacher. The way I understood it was that the father had him dissect dead animals for educational purposes.
My question is what caused Dahmer to go on a killing spree & dismember his victims? Why didn’t he become a great surgeon? What caused his psychopathy to manifest in that way? If he’s a pure psychopath, maybe when his father taught him to dissect animals, it gave him a taste of what it must be like to dismember a living thing. I wonder if his father never taught him to dissect, maybe he wouldn’t have went that extra step & dismembered his victims.
How far can one go before you determine that its psychopathy vs natural curiosity? I remember cutting worms in half and pulling the legs off of daddy long-legs spiders. I remember feeling awful afterwards so that was short-lived. But I’m an empath, maybe a normal might get a kick out of seeing what happens to the worm or spider. What about people who hunt and fish? If you’re hunting and fishing for survival, ok that’s necessary. But what if you’re doing it for sport? Where do you fall then?
I can’t help but think about the Nazi’s too. They had to do unspeakable things. I’m sure some of them were psychopaths or narcissists and got off on doing those unspeakable things. But some must have been normal too and just followed the herd mentality.
LET, I think your description of the emptiness is dead on accurate. Its a vacuum and sucks the life out of everyone around it.
Hi Leigh,
TBH, I can’t read about Jeffrey Dahmer. For me it’s like peering into the void and I’m afraid at what might stare back at me. I think he had a sickness that goes even beyond psychopathy. There is something demonic in his actions, and the eating of human flesh would correlate with that impression for me. There is something substantially subhuman in what he did. It wasn’t just dissection, it was the whole gamut of enticing, drugging, raping, murdering, dismembering, and feasting on his victims. This is just what I have garnered from random articles and documentaries without watching or reading any full blown content on him. I certainly didn’t watch the recent dramatisation of his story. Evan Peters appears in far too many dark and evil stories from me to want to see him play Dahmer as well. For some reason, I can handle Bundy better in terms of taking an interest in his crimes. He deserved to die. So did Dahmer, but I’m not sure if he was on death row.
If you are comparing your worm and spider antics to that, I’d say you don’t have a lot to worry about, Leigh. Kids are curious, but I was not one of those kids. I remember crying when my father caught a dragon fly in a jar to show us and I just cried for him to let it go. I felt so sorry for it trapped in that jar. I knew it wanted or needed to get out.
I accept people hunt for sport, man is showing his dominance over animals, though I’d prefer it to be for useful or survival purposes. Hunting is a useful skill to have if you are ever forced to rely on your own resources, though that is far less likely these days. I think most hunters have a useful purpose for their kills, and then we have necessary culls at times as well. Not sure where empaths might fall in this area, but I don’t think you need to be a psychopath to kill animals as a practical resource. I think the ‘torture’ and killing of animals is more what is normally alluded to in the case of the psychopath. Most hunters don’t seek to torture their prey. In fact, the quicker the kills, the better, as I imagine it. It shows a level of prowess and does not encourage suffering.
My mother is German. The Nazi heritage is real for many people. I’ve come to realize how complex the lead up to that situation was, which appears to have been somewhat incremental, and makes me think of HG’s video on Slice, Slice and Slice again. It’s something I’m only beginning to understand when it comes to my heritage, and the only explanation I can find for people to turn on eachother so willingly, to the point of genocide. Like the frog boiling in the water, it did not happen overnight, but slowly and in some ways stealthily. As you suggest, the eventual herd mentality is likely the biggest factor in turning ordinary men into monsters, no doubt there was a level of coercion involved. My mother told me the Hitler salute had to be given to neighbours as you came and went from the flats where they lived. It was an indoctrination, fear of reprisal, need to be aligned with others (belong), for some a true belief. I imagine there were those who felt they had no choice (were coerced), and at the other end of the spectrum those who fully supported the regime. No doubt amongst them were the narcissists and psychopaths.
Makes you realise how important “Knowing the Narcissist” and “Knowing the Psychopath” really is when you understand the trajectory things can take if they are given the power some of them desire. There is no limit to the horrors that can attain when good men do nothing.
Hi LET, I didn’t watch the latest series about Dahmer either. I didn’t even know it existed. I’ve always wondered what brought him to that level, especially since there was no physical or sexual abuse. How can that be? To me, it sparks the nature vs nurture debate. What’s more important?
LOL! Yes, I’m safe. I’m not a psychopath and my worm and spider antics don’t compare to that of a psychopath. My thoughts were a bit scattered and I was jumping around a bit. I was just thinking, that there are so many variables. How do we determine psychopathy to natural curiosity? Where is the line drawn?
Thank you for sharing a bit of your heritage. My mother is of Polish and Russian descent and I was raised Jewish. I’m sure there were many good people who had to follow for fear of reprisal. I also know many were forced to do things against their will. It was conditioning and salami slicing on a grand scale. It was slow and methodical and very much like the frog in the boiling water.
Yes, I agree Mr. Tudor’s work on Knowing the Narcissist and Knowing the Psychopath is so important because it brings clarity.
Leigh, I just mentioned the nature vs nurture debate in a comment to AV. Without the LOCE it’s very hard to understand how Dahmer took it to the extreme he did, but like I said I find their is something beyond psychopathy that exists in my understanding.
Maybe HG will give us a better understanding as to where the line should eventually be drawn. I think a LOCE could explain the actions of some empaths in terms of reactions to that which might include actions considered ‘cruel’ at times.
Thank you for sharing more of your family history and heritage, also for your follow on comment from that in terms of understanding. It’s impossible to my mind for people to do what the Germans did unless there had been some element of conditioning leading them forward. It’s what makes it extremely important to be aware of efforts to separate or divide us in order that we don’t allow the narcissists and psychopaths to ever lead us down that road again.
More good questions, AV, and I’m not sure if it could be described as a ‘drive’ on the part of the psychopath or the simple reality of a lack of empathy and conscience combined with a difference in the structure of the brain. To think they are ‘driven’ from my perspective denies the psychopath agency. I would describe it more as a ‘proclivity’. The psychopath has a proclivity towards the actions that they take. What drives them might be the boredom or emptiness associated with their psychopathy. That seems highly nuanced now that I have written it.
I might need to think about that some more!
If it were possible to delay negative experiences, would that benefit the psychopath? I’m not sure, as their inability to connect in an emotionally empathic way may mean they cannot benefit necessarily from positive experiences. I would like to think any child could benefit more from a stable and loving environment, but without that emotional connection you can only hope that might keep them from the worst excesses of their nature. I assume a LOCE is going to be extremely detrimental.
Hi LET, that is good, the nuance, I think you hit it on head. Proclivity is a better word. I watched the two movies, What’s Wrong with Kevin, think that’s the title, and Dismissed over the weekend. Very interesting. Both had a parent who was aware of what they were capable of and afraid of them. Both seem to have had their proclivities regardless of the home environment. Are they true to life? I don’t know. But HG’s told him he was different as a child, did she see it? She seemed to embrace it. My ex’s family knew he was different as a child, that’s one of the things I heard from them from the start. They thought it was odd, his parents didn’t know what to do with him. Thank you for this chat, it has been interesting.
AV, glad you had a chance to watch those movies, and in both cases the parents did seem to know there was something ‘wrong’ with their children with an inability to counter it and a fear of what their children were capable of as well. Makes me wonder again how HG’s father saw him and his response to HG as well. There is the other, much older movie, The Bad Seed, which is impactful in the same way and raises the issue of the nature vs nurture debate. In that case, the movie focuses on a much younger child (a girl aged eight) which made the film even more confronting.
Possibly the fact it was a girl as opposed to a boy enabled part of the controversy.
In the movie, We Need To Talk About Kevin, the mother seems to have difficulty bonding with him from the start. His psychopathy likely made that impossible, but the movie also seems to question her relationship with her son. He appeared to manipulate the difficulty of that relationship by triangulating her with his father, and ultimately it was his father who he killed along with his younger sister. This was in a manner to ‘punish’ her as well. Very much reminds me of the true life case of the young man called Paris who murdered his younger sister with a motive to punish his mother. He knew that would hurt her more than anything else. There’s obviously a sadistic streak contained within that.
Also, I saw HG commented on the notion of getting in the psychopath’s way and how that can lead to certain actions which don’t necessarily involve sadism, but by their nature involve hurting or punishing others. I thought the movie, Dismissed, highlighted that aspect of psychopathy. The determination to win at all costs and not let anything get in the way, even if that meant murder and mayhem. It was really insightful in that sense. I especially liked the aspect of the movie where it shows him as a child practicing different kinds of emotion in the mirror. It was both sad and scary at the same time. Also depressing.
Yes, HG has mentioned how his mother saw something in him she obviously thought she could advance for her own purposes. Being a narcissist, that appears to be him being an extension of her and perhaps fulfilling what she was unable to fulfill herself. Seems that she got more than she bargained for in the circumstances! Only a narcissistic or psychopathic parent could groom their child in their own likeness. They never seem to realise it will come back on the in the end.
In your ex-husband’s case it seems his family weren’t out to groom him, but were concerned about the signs he was showing in terms of being different to them. I’m not sure if you mentioned a LOCE in his case, but I see from the comments that you no longer believe he is a psychopath (or HG would have told you). I’m sure that’s a relief, but not sure if that also means he does not have ASPD (the two appear to be interchangeable at times). It’s possible anxiety leads us to believe certain things are possible when it would take someone with more expertise to determine if that is the case. As lay people we have to rely on our gut instinct. Whether is narcissism or psychopathy, getting out and staying out is the best advice we can get. Glad you and your kids survived the ordeal, AV.
LET, I think I saw The Bad Seed years ago. Of course at the time I wouldn’t have known anything about narcissism or psychopathy, it would have been purely for entertainment. And interestingly, I didn’t connect it to anyone I knew. Probably didn’t know any psychopaths back then. I may see if I can find it and watch it again.
Good point about HG’s father, what did he see, even if it wasn’t bad, per se, it could’ve been unreachable or similar, to where he didn’t see a point to trying? Who knows. I have felt bad for HG about his childhood years for a long time, the abuse he endured, even as I know he does not. It was what it was, it made him effective and there will be revenge. The end.
No, my ex’s family wasn’t out to groom him but they were not out to do much else either. A LOCE for sure, very sad situation. Anyway, no, I didn’t think he was a psychopath, just considering it here, I thought sociopath, which is a little different and falls under the ASPD umbrella. But, at this point, since there was not confirmation from HG and apparently if he picks up on it, he does confirm it, I have decided that it is just the narcissism that controls my ex’s behavior. And this means that his diagnosis as a teen was incorrect, that is okay, he was a teen, the person knew something wasn’t right and was trying to help him. So I give that person credit for that. Yes, anxiety can lead us to believe certain things, also a lack of information, probably this is more my situation. I am relieved to think I did not have a Ted Bundy living in my home. Thank you, I am also glad we all survived! Thank you also for the chat, very interesting!
AV, definitely a lack of information can impact our understanding. Good reminder. It’s why we are here.
I’m sure you are relieved to know you didn’t have a Ted Bundy living in your home. I’m still fascinated by the Netflix movie which showed the start of his relationship from her unaware perspective of what he was and the later interpretation of certain events when she was aware. How things are overlooked or discounted because we have nothing else to measure them by, and then a later reflection when we do. I have done this with the most recent ex-narcissist in my life, unraveling the events of our relationship with the insight I now have. It’s like putting on a pair of glasses – I was blind, but now I see.
Appreciate the chat, also. Thank you, too.
Not to excuse what he did, but if the information we have access to about Dahmer’s childhood is true, or even mostly true, I would say he certainly experienced a LOCE.
I believe he did if, as you say, it’s true at all as presented. They portrayed it in the most recent series even with a golden child, to the mother, her taking that one and leaving Jeffrey with a distracted and absent father for a month or two when still in high school. He was already messed up by then but it didn’t help. I hope HG will be able to fill in some of the pieces around LOCE and psychopathy, aware vs unaware etc as we go along.
And no, nothing excuses it. His prison experience, again if portrayed accurately, was also interesting.
I felt there was a demonic element to Jeffrey Dahmer’s crimes, and now that I’ve looked into it a little more I’m convinced.
There is a chilling video on YT titled: WI vs Jeffrey Dahmer: Victim Tracy Edwards testifies. He describes Dahmer as not even looking like the same person when he became aggressive with him, and says Dahmer put Exorcist III on the TV and chanted at different times while watching it.
Dahmer describes not being able to remember the second murder he carried out when he began his spree, nor the time with Tracy Edwards before his arrest. Edwards was his final victim, but managed to escape.
Dahmer also brought his former prom partner to his home for a party which turned out to be a seance, also telling her his house was haunted.
Not everyone believes in God, or demonic possession, but I think Dahmer was more than an a psychopath.
LET, I did a little bit more research on Jeffrey Dahmer In my research I found that Dahmer had a double hernia operation at 4 years old. His father claimed that after the surgery, he could see a change. You could be on to something here. He was a neophiliac, a cannibal, he dismembered the bodies and kept the skulls for trophies. I agree. Its next level evil for sure.
P.S. I wrote more comments on the No Contact thread about Cole. I just wanted to let you know, just in case you missed it.
That was supposed to say necrophiliac.
Hi Leigh,
Those are more interesting facts about Dahmer, and I’m not sure how an operation might have affected him in terms of the eventual outcome, but that may have been a traumatic time alongside other experiences he had. I believe his father wrote in his book that Dahmer’s mother did not want to touch him after he was born, saying she was afraid she would transfer germs to him. That’s a huge red flag in psychological terms. No doubt there were mental health issues involved and from the get go it seems Dahmer had some of the odds stacked against him.
Did he become an open portal for evil?
If you believe in a spiritual world, as I do, then that is a definite possibility.
I don’t know if you watched the video I mentioned related to the testimony of his final victim, but it will explain why I have formed that opinion. He not only carried out all the subhuman actions you mentioned, but he was also planning on building an altar out of the bones of his victims. The only people you build altars to are spiritual beings. If you look at it that way, his victims were a sacrifice.
The other interesting thing is that in his jailhouse interview he speaks of the desire for total control over another human being. He describes his desires as a compulsion. Something about that tells me Dahmer was not in control of himself. It doesn’t sound like the boredom and emptiness of the psychopath needing to be assuaged.
Just some more thoughts tumbling round in my head.
I’m going to find the other thread and your comment there to follow up, Leigh.
LET, Do you remember the TV show Charmed? I loved it. They were saving innocents Now, knowing I’m an empath, I understand why I loved it so much.
I don’t have a clear black or white stance on the existence of a spiritual world. Its nice to think that their are witches and angels out there protecting us. But really scary that there could be demons out there as well.
I will say this though, if there ever was someone who fits the description of demonic, it would be Jeffery Dahmer. I remember that interview and him describing it as a compulsion. Now that you’ve mentioned it, it does sound like he wasn’t in control of himself.
One last thing, I always wonder, when someone kills with their own hands, especially if its a gruesome murder, is there something else driving them?
Leigh,
I do remember the show “Charmed” and my daughters used to watch that one. I was not so taken with it, and I’ll take a hard pass on the idea of witches protecting us. In a fantasy world it is a caricature that has played out many times. As you can guess, I hold very strong beliefs in relation to good and evil. Hollywood might like to mix it up, it may seem like good value in terms of entertainment, but there is an underlying truth to the battle as far as I’m concerned.
Russell Crowe is featuring in a movie due to come out called “The Pope’s Exorcist” based on the real life experiences of a Vatican Exorcist. I hope to go and see it. For me, there is no question that demons exist and there is a need for a remedy to counter them.
In the case of Dahmer, he was a killer I never wanted to read about, though conversation around him has caused me to look into it a little further. I was resistant to knowing more because I inherently felt there was something demonic about his killings. I never knew that he had a genuine connection to the occult (at least that’s how I perceive it) until reading and hearing what I have already shared.
Tracey Evan’s testimony:
Lawyer: “Tell us about his demeanour at the time that you look at him and say “What’s going on? You don’t have to do this.” What happens to Mr. Dahmer? What is he like?”
Evans: “He’s like, not the same person that we met at Grand Avenue Mall”
Lawyer: “How is he different?”
Evans: “His face structure seemed different, his body structure, it’s like it wasn’t him any more. It was like it was a totally different guy in there.”
This part of the testimony really stood out for me. I’m sure Tracey Evans felt like he had come face to face with what I would refer to as the demonic.
I wouldn’t go so far as to suggest all murders are demon inspired, but this one I felt it, even before I knew the details. It’s why I’ve avoided it for so long.
Not ending on a very positive note, I’m afraid!
Hi LET,
That’s because its not a very positive subject. But its all good food for thought.
Thank you for sharing your thought process here. Its always good to see other people’s perspectives. It helps me to have a broader view and understanding.
Chi mom: hope you don’t mind the abbreviation. I was married to an antisocial. Not a narc. He is a criminal as most are and most of the jails. Not all psychopaths are bloodthirsty or killers I learned during my child custody battle. They don’t follow rules, laws or norms. They have their own code. BUT not all are killers. I agree. The top child psychologist once said they can be good fathers. She said think Sopranos. I was aghast but in my case she was right. He is not good at values. But he was good at being present. Taught business and poker and boxing. He is a multimillionaire who makes $30,000 on paper. I see narcs and psychopaths as different especially in relationships. There is no golden period. They want what they want. In my case: heirs. A woman at home. He cheated. Of course. But what really bothered me was getting called into the IRS crime fraud unit. They only take 12 cases a year and he is now in his 7Os scot free. I divorced him then. Like your brother, many crimes are evaded. He had connections to organized crime but washed money at a level not noticeable enough. He was frugal. Smart. Crimes don’t bother him at all. Morals either. But don’t mess with his code of money, woman and family. Don’t try to take his. Who knows the levels he will plunge. Yet, his son was a drug addict. Did nothing to help. His daughter was bipolar. Kicked her out at 18. When he tells the kids to jump, jump. He has the inheritance and the other two count on it. My daughter says she will make more;) . My daughter is a superstar. Straight As since birth, college scholarship and computer science major. All braces and activities, tutors, college counselor and application paid by me. I paid for two years of rent when she went to college in LA. 40,000$ in LA. He is actually paying the last two years of rent. Amazing. But he attributes all her success to him. Let him;)
All the more amazing that you continue to maintain this blog.
Very interesting. I dealt with 2 UMRNs. The biggest difference between the two is that one looks hysterical most of the time. The other is much calmer. The latter seems to always have power and control of the situation, even if he often seems to mind his own business. Could it be that the latter is a narcissistic psychopath and the other a pure narcissist? Thank you in advance
I would need more information about the individuals to form an accurate view. Yes the narc detector.
These 2 individuals have already been examined through the NarcDetector, HG. You didn’t mention psychopathy in your response. Can I assume they are not psychopaths then? Or should I submit another NDC to have their psychopathy evaluated?
You can be assure that they are not because it was not mentioned in the NDC.
Mr. Tudor,
Are you saying that if we do an NDC on an individual and they are either a narcissistic psychopath or a pure psychopath, you would tell us that in the results?
Yes.
Oh this is helpful, thank you. I didn’t know that you would pick that up or mention it in the NDC if you did.
Thank you HG!
Mr. Tudor,
A couple of weeks ago you said you would indicate on the narc detector if an individual was a pure psychopath or a narcissistic psychopath.
Would you also indicate on the narc detector if the individual was a pure sociopath or narcissistic sociopath?
P.S. I’m assuming I’m using the correct terminology when I say pure sociopath & narcissistic sociopath. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
Thank you
Yes.
Thank you, Mr. Tudor
Beautifully written, and chilling, Mr. Tudor.
This is terrifying. Thank you for sharing this HG.
In all honesty, not really as scary as the psychopaths who have actually gone on a killing rampage even with the risk of prison
If HG has found ways to prevent himself from doing that .I.E. by removing the toilet roll from the toilets at work because he finds it amusing then well…I guess we are relatively safe. He’s not planning to become jack ripper anytime soon
They rip people’s worlds apart tho. That’s not something you can say oh well to. Npd can be very destructive. That’s not to say narcissists don’t do amazing things in the world. On a personal level they murder people’s lives on many different levels. If you’ve learned properly you take tgat seriously.
@chihuahuamum
I’m not saying not to take it seriously regarding the impact of potential psychological damage through on-going exposure to them which is why you limit exposure.
My parents are narcs, I have several narcs in my family, I’ve been around them since I was born.
I’m just making a point that most narcs shout and stamp their feet and they rely on you to be scared of the threat that they may do something more serious than that, rather then them actually doing it. when my ex tried to get me to change my outfit i walked out of the house and there was nothing he could do unless he actually wanted to risk an assault charge or false imprisonment charge
Shit, what crap!
We have a woman, who deals with supplies, she has a strange policy of savings, although no one asks her for it, and money is sometimes spent on total nonsense.
The toilet paper is so thin, that it keeps tearing and everyone is going to hell! 🙂
She also once pointed out, that when wiping your hands, you should use only one sheet of paper towels.
I have a hand washing mania 150 times a day and that’s double. Every time I use at least three leaves with pleasure, ha ha ha 😀
These types of games are just the tip of the iceberg as to what keeps these people entertained. What they are capable of is not so simple. And not at all humorous.
AV, you are right. When you put it all together, it can be very overwhelming.
However, humor, petty teases and honest conversations allow us to survive in all this. We have been using these methods for years.
I generally follow the rule: I don’t follow stupid rules 🙂
If some irrational ordinance irritates me especially, I can make it very ostentatious.
@ A Victor
“These types of games are just the tip of the iceberg as to what keeps these people entertained. What they are capable of is not so simple. And not at all humorous.”
I agree. Worse is these sick mind games, and if you dare to question it then the gaslighting begins.
“It was just a joke, you are to sensitive, etc etc..”
It is terrible.
Anna,
I always got “Lighten up…”
I hate narcissism, I hate what these people are capable of and what they do. I hate my parents because I didn’t know, good parents would tell you that this exists and teach you how to stay safe. I hate myself, for not knowing, for not teaching my children this. So the cycle continues.
It is terrible. Thank you.
AV, there’s still time to break the cycle. Our children have something that we didn’t have, they have us. We had no one to guide us. We had to figure things out ourselves and sometimes because of all of the gaslighting and conditioning from our parents, we got it wrong. But now that Mr. Tudor has given us awareness, we can help our children. We can plant seeds to help guide and my hope is that they will become aware much quicker then we did.
I hate narcissism too!
Thank you Leigh, that is true, and very encouraging.
@ A Victor
“I hate my parents because I didn’t know, good parents would tell you that this exists and teach you how to stay safe. I hate myself, for not knowing, for not teaching my children this. So the cycle continues.”
You are so right. The trick is to break the cycle. It is never too late. I wish I had known then what I know now. How to recognise toxic behaviour and nip it in the bud.
Invalidating is so bad for children. All of us are guilty to a certain extent. When you think about it, you require a license to drive a car, but anyone can have kids. Then it is presumed you know how to bring them up. All you know is your own experience. Society is indeed guilty of producing psychopaths.sociopaths and mentally ill people.Then not caring.
The statement Apathy Kills is correct, as is stupidity causes as much damage as evil….
Thanks Anna, you are correct, it is never too late, that is encouraging.
Hi @Witch,
That’s a great point and I’m happy for everyone, including HG, for this. I was thinking of other psychopaths also when I wrote that. I listened to a recent interview last night in which HG reminded the audience that most psychopaths never kill anyone. That was a good reminder and made the emptiness less terrifying.
It was initially terrifying to me because of the description of the sense by which people around him can feel it when it happens. Also, I can’t even imagine feeling that way. I have struggled with a sense of self and with feeling my emotions but I’ve not struggled with feeling emptiness as he describes it here. I think for me that would be terrifying, except that it wouldn’t because if I had it, I’d be like HG.
The realization that they are predators, that this is just a fact, is a big part of it for me. Different from me in ways I can’t understand, they recognize and embrace these differences, it is so cold. Yet we can’t see it, speaking with HG is pleasant and fun, and yet this is the truth behind the pleasant and fun. One of the most difficult parts for me in learning about narcissism has been accepting the fact that there are bad people in the world. This plays with my mind regarding that.
One other reason that it hit me that way is that I believe my ex has this and I and my children lived with it for many years. What that emptiness makes them capable of, and having had it in close proximity without realizing what it was, hit a nerve. I am curious if sociopaths experience the emptiness also, I had thought that was what he was, but I saw that hyper focus at times, the very low need for fuel, the playing with people out of boredom, the fearlessness and other things. His diagnosis of ASPD doesn’t help either. I denied it when he told me and through much of our marriage but in hindsight, he has many markers. My parents do not have it, there is a difference between them and he. The really interesting thing for me is that I never “felt” afraid of him, though there were times I did not question him.
I have been watching Criminal Minds Evolutions with a great deal of interest. The character named by the BAU as Sicarius reminds me so much of my ex, I know it is a character and therefore likely not accurate in all ways but eerily similar behavior to my ex in many ways. Same with the portrayals I’ve seen of Ted Bundy. There is a photo of Ted, his girlfriend and her daughter on horses, it looks just like us, when I see that photo, it sends chills through me.
I thought a bit about these things yesterday, after I wrote that comment, why it had struck me like that. Thank you for your comment, it caused me look at it further.
AV, reading what you wrote, I thought the same thing: “But your ex-husband also had a psychopath element in him.” Of course, I can’t be sure, but I remember what you wrote about him – and especially how you felt him.
N2 has it too. I would drown in a puddle of vomit and tears if I knew the whole truth. I don’t want to know her. I can’t. Not now.
N1 was pure Narcissist.
Hi Joa, I would not want to know the truth either, what I do know is too much already.
I love your “I don’t follow stupid rules.” I am the same, believe it or not. Many do not, until they see it.
@AV
What I’ve learnt here is that what a narc/psycho is is capable of doing and what they will actually do are often 2 very different things.
The scariest narcs/psychos in my view are the ones that are willing to get caught
The rest rely on you being scared of what they may do rather than them actually doing it
@Witch,
I agree. You should see my ex’s rap sheet, and the 20 year gap when he was with me. He has avoided prison by the skin of his teeth, spent lots of time in jail. Sadly, if he was any other color, he would’ve been in prison long before I met him. Many of our early dated started at his PO’s office, me waiting in the car, my car mind you, with my baby. This is why I had him pegged as a sociopath, and wondered if they have the emptiness also. I was too naive for my own good. Anyway, he never actually did anything to us, thank God. Besides…lots of things, but nothing of the caliber that he was capable of. I am actually glad at this point that I didn’t know where he was and what he was doing when he wasn’t with us.
Years before I knew I wasn’t supposed to look, in one of his mugshots, he was flirting with the camera person, absolutely unafraid, he was having fun. That photo told me he would get off again, and he did. He is very charming. Having seen that same expression many times, it made me almost vomit, but at least my naivete was gone.
Psychopath, sociopath, narc, emptiness or not, I should’ve never been with this man. How the hell did I not know this.
@ A Victor
Some psychopaths lead normal lives and do good. Some professions such as surgery or the police force require people who have strong control over their emotions.
Not all criminals are psychopaths either.
At the end of the day it is choice. They choose to do good or bad.
HG for example, he has chosen to do good as Leigh said above.
Unless someone has a disease such as schizophrenia which can cause legal “insanity” thus they are not in control of what they do, then they have a choice.
I find it distasteful actually that mental illness is demonised the way it is.
Hi Anna,
Yes, it’s all choice, as with anyone else. And yes, many do good things.
Hi Anna,
Thinking about this a little more, I suppose the LOC affects psychopathy? If a person with that personality disorder were raised in a home with normal or empathic parents, not in one with LOC, they would likely make different choices, as anyone would.
It is distasteful how mental issues are demonized. It is getting better though.
Hi Anna: psychopaths and sociopaths and antisocials by definition don’t follow rules, norms or laws. They are goal oriented. Look at any study ASPD fill our jails. If someone does good, I would say it’s a result of a byproduct of their own goals not at all for common good. They don’t have consciences.
My ex was a sociopath. He had limited emotional range. Even in the bedroom. I remember taking this amazing cruise, nothing excites him that much. He loved winning at poker or making money or going 45 minutes for used fruit to save money. Anytime he felt he got one over money wise, oh boy! Pleased but nothing else. Lies around bored unusually. Not many emotions. He has no friends too.
Contagious,
Mine had a lot of friends, no one deep though. But you really hit that on the head, the lack of enthusiasm for life, unless it was something related to money, pulling one over on someone etc, yes! Nothing. He was very laid back… Haha. That’s what I thought at first. And such a nice change from my crazy mother. Nothing ruffled his feathers. But over time it became a thing. And yes, even in the bedroom. So boring.
Contagious and AV,
I remember my husband’s mother said that about him, that he couldn’t be her son because he was so composed, laid back, no sense of humour or goofiness about him. She called him dull and boring, no spark of life behind his eyes….little did I know, she was describing a narcissist with no set facade. She was describing him as a child and I remember that, I recorded it in my memory. She said that to me back in 2002. She found his behavior odd and she was diagnosed bipolar and on medication for it.
His mother was mostly nice to me, the times she wasn’t, her medication had to be adjusted. She kept my husband’s family together, she was the backbone of the family. She passed away last year and I was so traumatized by LMRSOMATIC treatment of me, that I couldn’t even mourn her or even cry for her at her funeral or even after….part of me wasn’t capable of anymore heartache or letting it in. I felt numb at her funeral, instead I went into observation mode and watched my husband’s family act up for attention. His brother didn’t even show up, the criminal brother. His middle brother was standing at the casket preaching his daily sermon, he thinks himself a godly man and wanna be pastor….he’s a religious narcissist. He’ll make crude jokes about sex, then preach to you about God, hypocrite and sicko. I see him, I see him.
His daughter was told , not to bring her little daughter because she won’t be quiet and behave, she’s too young for a funeral. What did she do, brings her anyway and then makes a scene correcting her child’s behavior during funeral service. Attention seeking, much? I see you too.
His step-dad, was busy looking upset and budding up to his sister, who he was trying to move in with and live off of. Thankfully, she told him no later. She’s smart, she sees a user in her brother. I just sat and watched it all unfold before me, seeing what I learned from HG happening in the now. It was like watching a train wreck, I couldn’t stop it, nor could I stop watching it. It was very enlightening and I couldn’t unsee any of it.
Thanks HG, for giving me my new eyes and the knowledge to know what I’m seeing. Xx I appreciate you and your knowledge! Xx
Victor! Hi! Looks like we both have had husbands with ASPD diagnosis. It means we are left provide our children with the nurture and nature they can’t provide. It’s doable. Completely. And you can skip teen years as they aren’t revealing of the true child you will get. But a pivotal time for you to be there and hang in there in development. How old are your kids? My heart goes out to you. I understand the challenges. I also know that psychopaths and ASPD are on a spectrum. HG is right to say they don’t all kill. They don’t. A small percent. But that lack of conscience and often criminality ( my case) is not easy to deal and counteract. I just took the high road. I paid for everything. Avoided critism of the father, focused on the choices. It’s hard when he is so much richer than you. Children know about money. But as the court appointed psychologist said, they will go to the love. She was right.
An excellent read, HG. Thank-you for sharing your inner world with us.
You are welcome, WC.
The sense of emptiness is the most terrifying thing of all. Probably worse than the rage.
Rage or fury might mean you are capable of terrible things, but emptiness means you are capable of the unimaginable.
Being the ‘doer’ and not the ‘done to’ takes on a whole new meaning in this context.
I agree with regard to the emptiness, the embracing of the emptiness.
I’ll Keep (it) Short (&) Simple 🙂
This is a fascinating read and thank you for composing it. This article adds more to what I had already heard from ie other sources of your work (KTN blog / YT).
Having said that, I can understand a great deal more about your need for several aspects of your life that are not connected to each other (the only main connection, is you). Including more than one avenue on the professional fields that you operate in. As a whole, is what keeps you interested with the choice to move quickly from one to another.
Once again, thank you, for what you do for people to access the inner workings (of the minds) of those with narcissism; psychopathy; victims of both areas. I much appreciate your time, HG 🙂 xx
Shivering and oddly mesmerising at the same.. you are different.. we absolutely are of different worlds there is no doubt.
But then again you compose such a beautiful music which equals the essence of a heartstring.. How difficult to understand you are.. Indeed a brilliant disguise it must be.
Jordyguin, nothing about this text hypnotized me. I just remembered a few situations from which I had to get out once.
When it comes to composing music, it’s best to go back 9 posts and re-read THOROUGHLY. Each of us here, boasting about logical thinking, is unfortunately far from cold logic. But… thanks to this cumulative, charming mystification, I met a lot of intriguing things. For example, I am currently in awe of a great composer like Peter Sandberg, and especially his little album “Dismantle”, which I especially love thanks to HG.
—-
He also never lied. I couldn’t blame him. He just didn’t correct my train of thought sometimes. He allowed us to come to our own conclusions and accept them as the truth.
He presented half-truths. He left the rest to us.
—-
He was cold. Always a stranger. Always only next to us.
Although I was warmed by the warmth and fabulous atmosphere…
He brought me back to life. He made a child smile and burst out laughing, who hadn’t laughed for several years… He made me able to be the little girl I was again. I finally felt safe, belonged and understood. He was the best, fascinating, interesting companion of my childhood life. And tenderness, pride, trust and warmth constantly overflowed in my heart.
“I can live with one woman only for five years at most” – he told her, when she married him. He satisfied her always exuberant ambitions – he allowed her to escape from a small town, look down on former friends, gave her prestige and high social status. He taught her to drive a car. She graduated from a university. Holidays several times a year.
From time to time he charged her a strong fee for these privileges. Sometimes I heard. Sometimes I felt. My body was stiff then and my eyes were wide open. I don’t know if I was blinking or breathing at all. There were times, when I would freeze for several hours and not move an inch.
He kept us with him for 17 years. Indeed, only the first 5 years he was an impeccable husband and a wonderful father, whom every child envied. Us, previously unnoticed or pitied. Pride filled our hearts. He was lively, strong, intelligent, cultured and respected.
Dozens of photos remain from this period. Changing scenery, sea, mountains, forest, lake, skis, ice skates, roller skates, bicycle, swimming – on each of them he and two little girls, still holding his hands, staring at him with delight. Laughing faces.
His jokes and fantastic stories were second to none. (He don’t know this, but modified episodes of the series: “When daddy was young and stupid” I told my daughter…)
I still remember the warmth of his firm hand, my gratitude and admiration.
He taught me to catch perspective, to sketch with pencil and charcoal.
When he was designing buildings and complexes of buildings, next him, I was designing rooms in our new house, playing with tracing or coloring projects on old rolls design.
While the other children were building a simple snowman in the winter, we were making snow and ice carvings of magnificent half-naked sculptures of ancient deities. Some were faithful reproductions of classic sculptures, others were equipped with funny elements. His attention to the anatomical details of these sculptures made people stop in awe.
“Who would you like to be?” – he asked before the carnival balls and created amazing creations for us with his own hands. No outfit bought or rented could compare to it. (He don’t know this, but I later created equally imaginative carnival costumes for my child…).
I enjoyed playing badminton with him. I was fast and had a light wrist. He liked to play with me.
I loved walking with him. Enjoyable, informative and revealing.
—-
He was the only one I hated and was so afraid of. He was the only one who appeared in my manic nightmares almost every day for several years, although we managed to get rid of him forever.
I haven’t seen him in 25 years. I don’t know anything about him, except that he’s still alive.
My sister saw him by chance a year ago. He was riding his bike, energetic, tanned. “Believe me, he nothing has changed, it looks completely the same” – she said. My gosh, he’ll be 85 in April…
I have nothing to say to him. As if he was never there…
Only remnants of him are left in me. I cleaned everything I could, dug up, tore out, replaced, dissolved. A few rusty rods, overgrown with my living flesh, must be left forever. It’s the stiff part of me.
I hadn’t thought about him a long time. This segment of life is now like a dream.
Have you been in my life for real? The photos confirm it. My memory too. And yet… I don’t remember you.
As if you were and weren’t.
What the hell were you!?
My dearest Joa,
For the first time in my life I may shift now and then to call things a coincidence despite my spectre mind and heart knows better.. Music, art, words – „it can’t be“ if you could see.. We’re all puzzle pieces of a masterpiece for now and it will all make sense one day.
My heart goes out to you, my dear! Thank you also for sharing that experience in your other comment, you went through and succeeded!
Let’s celebrate! Let’s have a tea party at Mad Hatters and break as many teacups as we want! Let’s have a pie fight, laughing, dancing, screaming until Red Queen’s palace windows crack!
And as the stars will quietly rise and we’ll sit by the peaceful river, let’s put the comfy blanket out of space around our shoulders and breath in the vastness which is us..
Oh look, there is the Morningstar – he outshines them all! Hmmm let’s check? Uuumm yeah, I think he just can’t help himself, he is the brightest deep sea creature in the abyss.. and there are so many – want to catch his light, to understand his game of vision.. his life and death and life again.. His silence is so loud it never was supposed to be.. the paradox of eternity.
Thank you Jordyguin, each of us will try to catch what we need from life.
Believing – do not forget about the conditional asterisk of Narcissus 🙂
Consider this Jordyguin, the celebration that you describe would be terrifying to me, I have no desire to break things, scream, have pie fights. Yet, I am going out on a limb here and it is not comfortable for me, but I believe that HG would be as entertained by figuring you out, and breaking you, as he would by doing so with me. It is the differences in us that keep life interesting. It is chilling and it is a brilliant disguise that anyone thinks this way.
What’s pure is pure, what breaks are masks and memories.
Those are the screams of joy and delight of an open heart, dear Vic.
(He already has figured everyone out)
I hug you heart to heart. I see you care deeply🌸🤍🌸
(..to your eternity..)
Hi Jordyguin,
I am glad you recognize this, that he has us figured out already. You’re doing well then.
I do care. But I hate hugs.
Oh Jordyguin, also, thank you for the song, very lovely. Please forgive my shortness, I’m going through a little…transition time at the moment, it’s making me a little sensitive, which is translating to bitchy. I do not have an open heart currently, maybe someday. I probably still won’t scream, but maybe I’ll clap my hand a little bit…😏
Hi A V
I suspect (I might be wrong) that HG has all of us figured out already—no thrill of the hunt or challenge.
Narcissists in general – that is different.
What is unnerving is a study I read; they got prisoners to point out who they may choose as potential victims. Those they chose had been victims previously. Rather scary and sad.
My cloak of being average and uninteresting – does not always work. A recent scrape has highlighted this. But at least now I can pinpoint the exact moment and reason that I was a target.
Yes, I am sure this is true. He has us pegged.
Yes, we are always revictimized, if we allow it.
I hope my new cloak, of being informed, serves better protection.
Vic, I stan that clap😎 It’s perfect. And what came up in many comments as well. Emptiness and darkness is not evil per se. What tames the emptiness is mesmerising – the individual who is capable of it.
No, not evil per se, I would personally say more sad, though HG would disagree. I’m not sure the emptiness is tameable. Containable, yes, tameable, not really.
Yep, whatever it is he is taming, containing – all marbles are in place.