The Narcissist´s Stare
The stare. The eyes feature prominently in an engagement with another person. You look into someone’s eyes to read them, to allow them to read you, you look away from someone in order to convey certain emotions, you fail to meet somebody’s gaze to convey others. I have written about the eyes of our kind previously but let us turn to a specific element of the use of eyes in the narcissistic dynamic and that is the stare.
Ordinarily, staring at another person is considered to be rude and ill-mannered, although it may denote fascination and even infatuation, but even that stare from a besotted admirer can be regarded as rude, never mind the unending gaze of a passer-by who cannot believe what he or she is witnessing. The stare when deployed by our kind takes on a different application altogether and it manifests at different times during your engagement with us.
- The Stare in Seduction
It is not used by all of our kind, but if you have been subjected to it, you will know it and you will remember it well. It was the time when those brilliant blue eyes locked with your own eyes and stared deep inside of you. Those flashing emerald eyes appeared transfixed as they stared at you. The rich brown eyes which seemed to melt as they gazed at you wavering. Whatever colour our eyes are, when you first received that seductive stare, the colour seemed to become brighter, the light shone in them and the intensity of our gaze was immense. It was not so much as being looked at, but rather an event in itself. Our steady stare was unusual as you probably had not experienced it from anyone else previously. You wanted to look away, torn between a sense of discomfort but the mesmerising quality of our eyes kept you looking back into them.
At that moment, our relentless gaze told you that you and only you mattered. There was nothing else of consequence in the universe. The background drained away, the surrounding sounds became muted and all distractions were removed. We wanted to show you that our devotion to you was beyond anything else. Only by allowing us to stare at you for such a long time were we able to convey the depths of our love, the vastness of our desire for you, the sheer scale of our need to be with you. Time slowed and then stood still, your skin tingled from the experience of this tantalising stare. Your breath caught in your lungs, your face seemed to flush and the wave of addiction washed across you, sending a shiver up and down your spine, around your neck and twisting your stomach. In that instant we became your universe as we showed you the world in our eyes.
Yet, what you really looked on as those two eyes continued to bore deep into you, was yourself. We commenced this engagement by staring at you for an unconventional length of time and this would make you feel both uncomfortable and captivated so that you would then show us what was in your eyes. You would reveal to us your desire, your love, your hopes, your wants and your dedication. All we did was mirror back at you what you showed to us, amplified through the auspices of the mimicry for which we have become known. In that moment as we held your gaze from across the table, or after that kiss, or as we lay on top of you, we showed you yourself and thus sowed the seeds that caused you to fall in love with us, but really it was with yourself. That is why your love became something beyond anything that you had ever experienced before. That is why it was deep, powerful and absolute, because your subconscious saw what it wanted to see and this fired-up powerful and immense responses in you.
The world whirled in our eyes, your world. We offered limitless possibilities through the promise we mirrored back at you and by keeping you in this gaze we told you that we wanted you above anything and everything else. We wanted you. We wanted you. We wanted YOU. That desire for you which shone in our eyes was actually our desire to control you, for your fuel, for your character traits and for those residual benefits. Of course, since you did not know who you were dealing with, you honestly mistook that stare of desire as us wanting you, the person. That is not the case.
This steady, magnetic stare is of course not utilised by all narcissists. Where deployed by the Lesser or Mid-Range Narcissist, they do believe they want you for being you, their narcissism does not allow them to know the genuine reason they want you nor why they are staring so intently at you. The Greater and Ultra know precisely what we are doing and why.
The stare in seduction demonstrates our sense of entitlement to keep looking at you, the sense of ownership (we look on you like some expensive painting or enticing motor vehicle that belongs to us), our lack of emotional empathy (we have no interest if this stare makes you feel somewhat uncomfortable or embarrassed to receive such attention). It exhibits our lack of boundary recognition and is a form of manipulation designed to benignly assert control over you directly.
- The Stare in Devaluation: Neutrality
In ‘Why Does He Seem Like A Different Person’, I explained about the stranger setting where the person who once lit up your life, becomes like a stranger, almost robotic. This is a change which occurs as the devaluation begins. It is not always present as some of our kind move straight into the dark abuses of the devaluation from the off, but there is a precursor to this when the person who once walked in with a cheery smile and a kiss, just enters and sits down, devoid of any prevailing emotion.
If you experience this, then you may also experience the stare at this juncture. This will be a hollow gaze which is accentuated by the blank expression that accompanies it. It is not a look of confusion or misapprehension; it is not a look of dimwittedness but is instead the empty stare of an empty person. You are looking at the void that exists within all of our kind. This represents the crossroads. The seductive stare glowed, fizzed and shone with the fabricated positive emotions which would cause you to respond with positive fuel. That has gone. The darkness of the devaluation has not yet commenced and its drawing of the negative fuel. Instead, you are looking at the in-between. The eyes which are devoid of warmth or hatred, empty of passion or malice, just a blank stare which conveys the void within.
This will cause you to become confused. It will have you ask whether everything is alright and have you wondering what has happened. You will be mystified as to where those mesmeric and scintillating gazes have gone. Why are you no longer looked at with that piercing and uplifting look? Where have we gone? If we had a soul, it is as if it has been sucked from within us, leaving only this husk behind. You cannot complain that you are being badly treated, since no abuses have yet been deployed against you. This empty and robotic stare is a warning of what is to come and should you see it in those you engage with, heed it and make good your departure because it is signaling to you that a far worse stare awaits you.
- The Stare in Devaluation: Malice
This, perhaps, is the stare that most associate with our kind. When you are subjected to our malicious stare, our eyes darken, emphasised by the contortion of our features which makes us appear like something else. The glowing greens, brilliant blues and blissful browns have vanished. The glinting grey eyes are no more, the halcyon hazel has been banished and instead a dark and glowering black has taken their place.
This gaze will cause you to shrink back under its impact. The hatred that is embodied in the inky darkness will turn you cold, send ice through your heart and is enough to even cause you to burst into tears. Terror will grip you because when this stare is deployed against you, you are seeing the evil in our core. The pure, unadulterated hatred which we have for you. It is seething, dense and vicious. It bears down on you, reminding you of your weaknesses and vulnerabilities, a blackened glare which keeps on driving at you, pressing down on you, forcing you to feel small and wretched.
You may have caught the occasional malicious glance from us, just a flash of hatred, but that is something else. Those glimpses were warnings which could only be used for an instant to avoid detection by third parties and the fracturing of the façade. This is a stare. Sometimes it may be accompanied by hissed words of threat and insult. Sometimes it is cloaked in silence, the balefulness a clear warning that a period of silence will now be visiting you.
The person that you thought we were will be utterly absent. Your world has been annihilated in an instant and replaced by two orbs of glinting black, which tell you that you are hated. Totally hated and that much worse will be visited on you in conjunction with this stare of concentrated evil.
- The Stare in the Discard
This is perhaps witnessed if you are actually told of your discard. More often, it appears post discard when you try to see us, to plead with us for answers, to beg us to take you back and so forth. This stare is one of pure contempt. Disdain and distaste for you. How on earth did we come to couple with one so weak, so pathetic and so disgusting as you. You make us shudder to think that we once even looked at you with favour, love and longing. The annoyance that we feel at choosing someone like you is thrust to one side to be overridden by a contemptuous stare, that is designed to weaken you in your tracks and tell you that in no uncertain terms we want nothing to do with you. We have someone far better. This stare is to urge you to keep away and to forbid you from reminding us that we once promised you the world. We do not want to remember such matters. Somebody else receives those promises now. You are an unfortunate reminder of a part of us which we prefer to keep locked away and this stare conveys this through contempt and loathing.
- The Stare in the Hoover
The Malign Follow-Up Hoover as you would expect applies the same approach as the malicious stare detailed above. Should we make contact with you for the purposes of trying to convince you to return to us, whether it is post-discard or post-escape, we will look to hold your gaze once again. This time those eyes of ours will shine again but with hope, longing and contrition. Vulnerability, sorrow and remorse may appear to loom large in the rounded and pleading gaze which we now hold you in.
Once more this is pure artifice. All we are doing is mirroring what you show to us. The hope that we might have seen the error of our ways. The longing for us to come to the realisation that we have done wrong. The sorrow for a person who must behave in this manner. The remorse that you engaged with someone so vile. The longing that you have for the golden period to shine once again. It is all manufactured as we mirror back to you what we see but for the purposes of hoodwinking you once again and with mealy-mouthed assurances and never to be delivered promises, we hook you back into our grasp.
The stare is a prominent weapon when we engage with you. It is a device that fabricates those emotions we do not possess and allows you to see the reality of who you have entangled with when you look up on the emptiness and shrink from the malice.
188 thoughts on “The Narcissist´s Stare”
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Hi Jade,
There’s a lot of comments flying around & I wasn’t sure if you saw this response.
https://narcsite.com/2021/02/26/the-narcissists-stare/comment-page-1/#comment-467974
Thanks Leigh.. I caught that one earlier. 🙏❤️
Have you had “feelings” like this as well as the stares, Contagious. I picked up on envy more generally and that and malice towards me specifically from an ex manager I mentioned but don’t remember his eyes specifically. I hardly knew or spoke to him in twelve years as I work alone mostly but felt certain I was right (he was the one that lied to his girlfriend about me, who I put in her place). I spoke to a trusted colleague afterwards who knew him well and backed up my feelings.
I also had some weird precognitive impressions just before I met my ex who I’ve spoken to Arya and Leigh about. 🤔
Oh and at my dad’s funeral there was a friend of my brother’s I knew from school that I had picked up on not liking me before that. At the funeral I could feel hate and contempt dripping off him and towards me…
Before I “knew” about these people I used to assume I was annoying or has annoyed them and would try to make them like me, sadly. luckily I know better now. 😅 I’ve also met one very strange person when I lived in Australia who was also a heroin addict but friend of a close friend .. I picked up on the darkness there and was polite but avoidant that time..
Hello Jade:
It is not only a stare that cause me to pick up on someone’s emotions. It’s a lot of things. The eyes are a window to the soul. And everyone here has seen some killer with that wide eyed blank look on TV. Christian Bale does a good job in American Psychopath.
I tried to differentiate this “ goat eyes” as I have looked directly into them when a DA because of a prelim or a trial and I did find a different energy in that blank, no one is home look. As stated… some were just dead, some had kind of an intense deadness like furtive ( pedophile), chaotic ( sociopath), unrelenting ( drug dealer, murderer), and the opposing counsel felt intrusive/fixed. All shared this common “ lack of” like goat eyes. Maybe it’s not blinking a lot but it was more. I described my best. Not normal. On the flip side nothing better than looking into a kind compassionate soul… no matter the age! Like smelling warm cookies, seeing a fire on a warm day… that feeling of safety and love and warmth. You could meet a stranger with this quality… and nothing beats the eyes between mother and baby. Ahhh the love!
Goats have rectangular pupils.
Dear wise and safe HG:
I currently have a client who is a goat scalper. True. He has Nigerian goats and their pupils are long and oval. I must respectfully disagree and I have over a hundred Nigerian goat oics to prove it as evidence. Perhaps it’s the type of goats lol!
When I studied in Manchester, I was fascinated by the green pleasant hills with the adorable sheep… I actually was on a morning show for Manchester and I fed a baby sheep… sheep are akin to goats. I had my friend Nigel pull the car over. I hopped the fence to see these darlings up close and personal. Well, it spit at me and was very dirty! I walked down to the car disappointed when a GIANT black bull came at me. I nearly was mauled but I made it over the fence. True story! I am a city girl….x
Hmm, that seems odd since goats do have rectangular pupils and this included Nigerian dwarf goats. It is a necessary evolved trait to assist in protecting them from predators.https://www.zmescience.com/feature-post/natural-sciences/animals/mammals/goat-rectangular-pupils/
Goats and sheep have the same basic pupil shape we do, i.e. round ones. But they contract differently, so that when it is bright enough, as in broad daylight, they look rectangular. The rectangular shape is what you will most likely see, because you would typically encounter goats outside, in daylight. Apart from that, you’re the GOAT, HG, so at least one of them has round ones!
Incidentally, last week I watched a quiz on tv where they asked which one was a type of reindeer: Wapiti, Muntiak or Caribou. They all gave incorrect answers. If they had read the flying-reindeer discussion on the blog, they probably would have known that it is the Caribou!
Contagious, was it you that shared a story about a herd of goats being released into a certain field and eating a lot of “herbs”? No wonder they ended up appearing bug-eyed….
Haha – @Asp Amp!
This is really helpful Contagious thank you! I appreciate you breaking the different types down, but yes yjf loving gazes are your best!
Hi Jade,
The comments here are about the narcissist’s stare or eyes.
Thinking about it the other way around, I think narcissists and psychopaths recognise empathic people just by looking at them.
I’ve had experiences where I’m sure this was the case.
Once, I was just walking down a street minding my own business and when passing a stranger, this man looked at me, grinned (almost laughing) and had a look on his face as if to say, “Oh, hello! I could have some fun with you!” It wasn’t in a flirty way, it was in a creepy way. All he needed to do was lick his lips as though he was Sylvester the Cat and I was Tweetie Bird. It was very obvious and it was after I was aware of narcissists so I recognised what was happening.
Another time, I was at the bank and had to do something fairly complicated rather than a quick run of the mill transaction. The bank teller made obvious mistakes and delayed the process making it more difficult and time-consuming than it should have been. I could tell she was doing it deliberately to get a reaction.
Yet another time, years ago when I used to use public transport, I remember exiting a train carriage and a man was behind me. As he passed by me, he came up to me, reached out and touched me, like a quick sweeping gesture across my back. It was super weird and creepy and at the time, I thought to myself, “what the hell?!”
Another time, it was early evening, fairly dark and raining. I had finished my shopping, had one bag of groceries and was about to walk outside into the carpark to my car. Just after I walked outside into the rain, a man drove his car near to me and said he could give me a ride to my car so I wouldn’t get wet. I told him I was okay and then walked away in the opposite direction. Very creepy and unexpected. I’m just thankful there were other people not too far away.
There have been other instances too, usually strangers or customer service staff in shops, etc. At times, the person has a sly half-grin on their face. There is always a vibe they give off.
I think there are predators ‘out there’ and they can spot empathic people too.
One time, I was standing behind a man in a queue. He had a tattoo on his upper arm which was a picture of a woman. The woman had a flowy veil across her eyes, like a blindfold. The tattoo was elaborate – the woman had long swirly hair and a romantic look. It was fairly artistic and didn’t look like anything out of the ordinary at first glance, but the veil across the eyes was sinister. It made me wonder if he had a wife or girlfriend who was being abused.
I think narcs hide in plain sight and they know what they’re doing.
Another one I missed WN 😅
I am sorry about your experiences. Yikes! There’s some creepy people out there, for sure! I’m glad you managed to handle things.
Yes, I think particularly since being here and learning more about the dynamics, I can see where people try to latch onto me once they see my personality a bit more.. a bit of excitement that I’m “easy going”. A few of the people in my life got a surprise when I have stopped being easy going with my boundaries and I am learning to dim my light a little when out and about. I’m fairly introverted but talk quite easily to strangers which is often fine but I’m realising, sometimes not worth the hassle!
Hi two,
Thanks for your reply, and sorry for not responding sooner.
Yes, there are some creepy people out there.
I know what you mean about dimming your light when out and about. Now that I’m far more aware of different personalities, I’m not as friendly or expressive as I used to be when meeting people. I tend to hold back and observe more and I’m careful of what I say. I think it has definitely made a difference.
Wise plan WN. ✊
I was out shopping locally this morning and felt I identified two potential narcs or at least problem people. One is a guy in a shop that was predatory with my husband previously and another a builder, making such a show of taking phone calls at the dentist, like he was a celebrity! 🙄 No awareness. It does pay to be circumspect for sure.
Hope you’re doing well WN 💕
Sorry AV and Leigh, I have seen more comments here now, yes I know the 404 look now from TOW at least and think I get the fuel look you’re describing. One ex friend used to smirk a lot too and I can see in hindsight what was happening there now. Thank you. It’s fascinating isn’t it?
Ps I’ll just add in here about the “conflict” discussion yesterday that I’ve been thinking on (as I am prone lol. 🧠🤓). I think I need to learn how to be in a group without absorbing everyone else’s feelings which I’ve already started doing here. My bad. I’m finding HG and you all so helpful and don’t want to do my boom and bust thing where I have to step back because I burn myself out which is usually related to over thinking all the dynamics , wanting to take care of everyone and worrying I’ve invalidated someone in the meantime too.. Argh welcome to my brain! 😅
We all have different journeys and patterns don’t we? I think there’s a reenacting of old parts that can occur in our relating to each other and HG. I can see some people are able to be here without getting pulled in too much which is a useful model for me with this. This is partly airing my thoughts and partly to say I’m happy for people to also point out if I’m doing “my thang” as I’m aware and am keeping an eye on it too! Ok, back to observe not absorb mode, two!!! 🔘🧐
#overthinkersanon 🥴🤣👀
Yes, more observe over absorb would be welcomed. It’s all just opinions at the end of the day. We are free to reflect, accept, or be on our merry way.
Yes, I can see that NA and you are one of the people I thought of when I wrote that. A good skill to develop for sure and one that I’ll keep practicing. ✊ More to self: I don’t need to “save” anyone else. 😅
Hi Two,
Yes, we all still have work to do, whether it’s here, there or somewhere else. Thank you for sharing your “observations”! 🙂
Thankful you AV! I like what you did there 😉
Hi Jade,
Ugh! I’m an overthinker too! It’s a pain in the ass, isn’t it?
I don’t normally absorb other people’s feelings like other Contagion empaths. Its only happened to me a few times and each time it unnerved me.
The best advice I can give you would be to go to the evidence and use logic to get to your conclusion. Once you let your feelings skew your view, you’re now using emotional thinking vs logical thinking.
I really appreciated your input and view.
It is Leigh! Though I do see the benefits of my deep thinking brain too, as I get older. I’m on antidepressants for my pain and they’ve a lot helped too (I was a lot worst in my twenties). There’s a term “sticky brain” that two psychologists Martin seif and sally Winston have coined (they have a blog on psychology today) that’s been helpful to understand myself too.
From what I know about contagion I imagine that’s a big part of me, it happens without me even thinking .. I get it out and about with strangers too and I think is also tied in to people pleasing behaviours growing up and as mentioned, I think contributed to my developing chronic pain. I do like your point about evidence though and NAs reply about what I said about observing and not absorbing.
Thinking about it now, I’ve come along way with it as I don’t do it with my mum now which has been one of my biggest challenges. I cut off mostly, harder when in person but still mostly. I think as mentioned working on that in a group, especially about emotional stuff here, is my next thing. I think there is a shelf life for me being here on the blog tbh as groups aren’t my natural habitat at all but I’m trying to gauge that .. not to avoid learning what I need to re this but not to stay too long. I think I’ll know when the time is right but I am enjoying it for now on the whole too.
Ps it’s interesting watching Contagious here. I can see she’s “contagion” but seems at least to be able to roll with things and let things roll off easier than I do. I know HG can probably see why I am as I am! I’m definitely “a low energy, get bogged down in emotions, if I’m not careful” person. And it can be bloody irritating to myself (and others) lol. 😅
Hi Jade,
Have you read the Contagion threads? There’s a lot of good info on those thread from different Contagion empaths. It might help you understand that piece of you. I have a very small piece of Contagion and it can happen without me realizing too. I have to be proximate to the person though and the emotion has to be heightened.
I’m just surmising here but its possible that you learned to understand your mom intuitively and became a people pleaser in order to not threaten her control. Many of our behaviors are conditioned from our childhood.
If the blog starts to be overwhelming for you and you feel like you’re absorbing too much energy from other bloggers, maybe go back to just reading the articles and listening to the videos. This way your still getting hits of logic.
Just so you know, I don’t think you’re that emotional and I certainly don’t think you’re irritating at all. I think you’re curious and that’s how we learn.
Thank you Leigh! That’s a very good idea re contagion and also re reading or videos. I am finding it hard not to check the site and I can get quite addicted to things easily! I’ll see how I go and appreciate your support and ideas. I definitely would like to learn more about contagion.
Oops Leigh, I realised I missed a bit of my reply last night.
“just surmising here but its possible that you learned to understand your mom intuitively and became a people pleaser in order to not threaten her control. Many of our behaviors are conditioned from our childhood.”
Yep! ☝️you nailed it. And my dad had a bit of a temper when I was younger so the same there a bit too.
“Just so you know, I don’t think you’re that emotional and I certainly don’t think you’re irritating at all. I think you’re curious and that’s how we learn.”
Thank you .. I appreciate that. 🙏 I’m not actually that emotional myself, sometimes of course, but it’s more that I take on too much of others emotions and can get tangled up/bogged down. I don’t really think I’m irritating as such though of course we’re never going to be everyone’s cup of tea (but it used to be a big thing that I did worry about when younger.. i thought when people behaved badly towards me that I must me “irritating” – it’s amazing the freedom that being of aware of what narcissism is, brings! 🫣)
I’m just aware that being too involved in picking up others emotions can impact others too. We’re all a work in progress though, aren’t we? Learning to be patient with myself too 😅
Oh ok. Now I understand. Its not about your emotions but the emotions of others.
I don’t know if this will help but we had an interesting conversation on this thread:
https://narcsite.com/2021/04/17/interview-pink-pill-channel/
Since you’re trying to figure out how to curb the absorbing of other’s emotions, this might be a good thread because there’s conversation about shielding:
https://narcsite.com/2023/07/13/knowing-the-narcissist-the-contagion-empath-2/
I seem to give you a lot of homework, lol!
Ps Leigh, I realise it’s up to me to sort out feeling addicted/overwhelmed re narcsite (but I appreciate your ideas too, I hadn’t thought of using the contagion threads 🙏).
I’m just thinking of HG and logic.. it’s not logical for me to log on and then moan about being addicted. This is something I need to work on generally too so I have a plan for how much to be here now. New year, new start!
Hi Jade,
I think having a plan for how long you’re on the blog is a great idea. Your time here might start to dwindle naturally too. When I first got here, I spent hours upon hours each day on the blog. I’m still here daily but I try to minimize my time each day. There are others who check in, spend some time and then leave again. You’ll probably get to that point as well. I think what’s probably happening now is that you’re curiosity is driving you. The more you learn the more you want to dive in and learn some more. I totally get it!
You hit the nail on the head Leigh! And I do like learning .. !
I appreciate the homework Leigh! I’m one of those strange people lol. I’m working my way through the contagion threads. A lot resonates. I had a very lucid dream last night after reading about lucid dreams too!
I love homework too, Jade! LOL!
Hi Leigh!
I would add to look at your family. Learned behavior is very powerful. And it could be a contagion gene. Also there have been neurological tests on contagion so it is brain wiring. Again… genes.
Take for example my father and his family, highly empathetic. You just learned to be kind, you didn’t gossip, complain, criticize in front of them and if they did, I never saw it. They just didn’t do it. Very humble too. They had sparkles in their wide set blue eyes and big warm smiles. If you behaved badly, there would be silence but positive reinforcement for good behavior. They corrected their children of course and they were human not saints. But saint like to me. But you became sensitive to this emanating warmth and noticed the differences between others. There was more family and others. My cousins were kind but filled with energy. Lots of energy. My Aunts had large families, some worked, one was a nurse, one a social worker, one an artist, one with 11 children, a mother and wife. My father was a Vietnam vet and mechanical engineer and musician. My family is filled with artists as am I. We are not perfect as for me… far from perfection…. but I was very attuned to them. The approval that I sought was to be like them which is natural I think. And oddly we all love dogs. My mother is a good women but preferred cats. But a family of pet people. One of the weird things about me is I am tuned into Inspector Clouseau, Lulu and Jean Jacques energies. Ie They are dying for a walk each morning and I literally wake up and feel the pressure or their energy to get up and get going. Walk time! If no court hearing, off I go! I wonder if other people feel contagion with their pets or animals….my best friend says that animals are drawn to me as I have a calmness. They sense safety. She is an anxious person and my son once said that she is always watching the dogs while the dogs all watch me. Not sure what that means but she is a devoted loving hovering dog mama. I am more relaxed but I don’t think I have ever lived without a pet. As I get older, I think… at what point do you stop as you won’t be around? I think of them as angels as pure unconditional love. ( smelly angels as mine are frenchies) lol
Hi Contagious,
I definitely believe that Contagions can feel the energy of animals. When my beloved kitty was dying, I felt it. My daughter has Contagion as well, probably double the amount I do. She’s had occasions when she’s felt the energy of her cats too.
Yes, our furry little angels do provide unconditional love.
Your comment about contagion genes is interesting Contagious. You remind me most of myself here (without your energy and kickass-ness at work 😁) but I didn’t have that emotional empathy that you describe, around me growing up. It’s interesting isn’t it? I think that’s why it’s a struggle deciphering cognitive empathy from emotional though I know it’s a hard one for a lot of people.. I saw a lot of the former and hardly any of the latter. I like learning about body language and facial expressions but as you said elsewhere today I think, it’s how people make you FEEL ultimately.
and pets of course .. Frenchies are so cute..but yes smelly! 😁🐾
Ohhh Jade…. I am not HG but I see you as a contagion! Totally! Remember I have had 30 years of legal “ training.” It’s not a great field of “ sensitivity”. It is high pressure and high stress with many hard nosed judges and people. So you must roll with it or find a new job. The helping others aspect of it enriches my life and of course the income;)
Two: I felt the same when you posted. I thought she is a kindred spirit. I would bet my life you are a contagion. I also appreciate your kindness, your authenticity and your knowledge which is specialized and different than mine:) I think your insight especially with your background has and will enhance the blog! Hugs!
Thank you for the lovely comments Contagious! 🙏 I realised I’m an empath a while ago but it’s good to understand it further.
Hello Two aka Jade:
Be prepared for some discussions on lucid dreaming and other interesting topics on the contagion thread. My favorite is HG’s when Contagion meets Darkness.” I literally jumped out of my seat and felt HG had read my mind. It was a little un-nerving to be honest. I mean how does he know these things? HG is uncanny in his ways of understanding empaths and well everyone. HG is the profiler of all profilers!
Yes I’ve been enjoying those threads Contagious and goodie gumdrops (as Leigh would say 😁) on dream talk. I had another premonition dream last week.
Yes HG is uncanny. I’ve found that about so many of his insights into empaths and narcissists alike! I read one line about what middle mid rangers say and literally have heard that exact line come out of someone’s mouth.
Goodie gumdrops, lol!
Jade, have you seen HG’s articles:
The 5 Fears of the Narcissist
To Control Is To Cope – The Creation Of Narcissism (however, I think that this one is particularly good for possibly understanding more about how coping mechanisms / strategies may develop as children begin to learn more about humanity and the environments around them – not necessarily restricted to those who form into narcissists).
Ooh thank you Asp Amp. It was on my list. I’ll listen now. 🙏❤️
Thank you Asp Amp. These are core articles aren’t they? Apologies if I’m repeating my comment but I’m finding it useful what you said about LOCE and us non narcs. Because my mum needed control, I found “control” in not being the one in control lol. I’m now learning to be in control appropriately. I think I’ve said control too much lol 😂
Jade, there are numerous articles that readers of HG’s work may view them as ‘core’ articles, for me, the two I mentioned, are ‘core’ ones for me as they helped me understand better – everyone has different perceptions, yet, HG’s work has one main aim, to empower empaths about narcissism (normals also benefit from having access to HG’s resources).
I know Asp Amp. I can’t believe how much wotk he’s done.. and still doing. 😅
Just to add to this Asp Amp, I’m guessing even ensnared narcissistic people will benefit too… 🤔 Thinking of Johnny D and also someone in the 100k vids. I’m guessing they are smaller in number though..
Who knows, Jade, maybe Johnny D has / had utilised HG’s work? Bringing up JD reminded me of a number of clips from the trial (especially AHeard and the doctor – their glitches…..). Yes, HG has shared the percentages of people on the narcissism to empath spectrum….he has done some really excellent videos…..
He really has Asp Amp. Those glitches videos were really useful. It’s the facial expressions in real time that are often hard to pin down imo…
Yes, I really do enjoy those glitches, including HG’s video analyses…. I get frissions at times, because it can / does take me back (good triggers) of some memories of past interactions…..naughty little empath…..
Haha Asp “naughty little empath”!
Asp Amp –
“Who knows, Jade, maybe Johnny D has / had utilised HG’s work?”
Interesting suggestion. Depp certainly went to some length not to look directly at Heard during the trial – which takes careful effort not to do so, for such a long duration of time.
Hi WhoCares, yes, I had wondered about JD’s possible awareness (including his own). There were occasions when he appeared amused….which contributed to my making the suggestion as above.
Wouldn’t it be interesting to be a fly on the wall of HGs office, WC and Asp Amp!!
Prince William definitely seems to be “pulling a Tudor”™️ with TOW and Harry too!
I see the same look on Trump’s face when I see him that I used to see on my dad’s face all the time. It’s so odd to see that. But it was/is that narc look.
That’s interesting, AV! I see a look of condescension on Trump’s face. I also see him light up when he’s being fueled. Sometimes he just looks blank too. Its very interesting to watch.
I’m curious what you see. Would you mind sharing your thoughts?
Hi Leigh and AV,
I’m not sure if I’ve seen a narc actively “filling up” on fuel 🤔 I’m guessing the smirking would be an example though… I suppose before learning about narcissists, it would appear to me as when they’re feeling very happy, confident… Or maybe victorious or smug in narcs like trump?
Hi Jade,
The smirki s definitely a tell that they’re being fueled. They stand taller too and their shoulders get broader. There’s something in the eyes too.
Hi two:
There is a book by an FBI profiler who does a world wide look on “ dangerous personalities.. the name of the book by Joe Narrvaro….” He reminds me of HG in that he does not refer to the DSM. In his case based on many cultures he looks at mental illness from a worldwide victim experience such as
#1. Emotional unpredictability. Mercurial individuals. Impulsiveness. Lashing out or drug/alcohol abuse use. Instability. People walk on eggshells… children do. No one can count on that person at anytime. You just don’t know what to expect.
2. Ability to devalue others. Umm abuse.
3. Stranger duck. Distrustful person. Paranoid people. People who always disrupt such as in management. They collect wounds or grievances so they justify behaviors. ( ie people who shoot up those at work or a church etc…)
4. Human right violators, ie people who steal, or Robert hares group where the prefrontal cortex is different but as you go across the world… he is a bad person: a law breaker. There will be danger associating near this person.
There are flawed character, no pill will kill them. You have to realize their are people will do what they do because they can.This profiler was on Ted Bundy, and Vegas killings. He says some people are just that way. Hello HG? When you know, you go!!
I think people need to realize when they are mistreated is validate yourself, this abuse is not right. The only healing will be the victim not the asap, narc or paranoid.
Ignorance is ok. You learn. For me it was HG. There is no working or sorting it out.
For me, I believed that things could be fixed. It was alcohol. Check. Nope. This is job loss and stress. Check. Nope. This is living in another country. Nope. Check. We need therapy. It lasted one day.
Even God put a mark on Cain and ended it. Your only choice is to distance yourself.
I guess is how long are you willing to put up with it or do you just want to get used to it?
And his message is worldwide, there is no government rescue.You must rescue yourself.
Thank you Contagious. I’ll look him up.
It is difficult to explain. It’s a vacant look. That’s possibly my best description. There are other looks also that my dad had that might be similar to Trump, condescension would be among them possibly, though I’ve not connected that with Trump. It’s also not the 404 look, it’s different. It’s more just like they’re not there, their minds are on another planet at that moment.
Contagious, I’ll reply to your comments here also. I have seen some of the states you refer to, in my mother. I’ve discussed some of that previously on the blog but, this is for Jade also, your number 2 example is often what my mother looks like when she’s getting fuel. My dad did not look like this in those instances, he was much more cooler about it.
Oops, my dad was much cooler OR much more cool about it…
Hi AV, are you referring to HG’s video ‘The Blank Look From The Narcissist? Yes, I’ve seen that ‘vacant’ look, when they appeared to be ‘somewhere else’, like in an alternative world (probably similar to those who may utilise the virtual reality equipment).
Hi Asp Amp,
Yes, that is the one! Thank you. I’ve seen it when I went to the casino with my ex years ago also. That look, on all the gamblers faces, was one I couldn’t stand, could never go again, it was so disturbing. My dad never gambled but he had that look at times, and I’ve seen it on Trump also.
Hi AV, glad to know it is that video. From experience, I understand that some places would be avoided due to feeling ‘disturbed’ (also avoiding potential triggers / external stressors). Even though some politicans may be used to the environment ie in front of the press / interviews, sometimes, the eyes (and face, sometimes) give the impression of changing from one window to another ie the creature has dropped their ‘costume’ they were ‘wearing’ at that moment in time.
Ooh I’ll check that video out, thanks Asp Amp 🙏
Ps I kind of want to see my mum since having these discussions to try and spot the looks! 🧐 #narcbingo Not worth it really though.. 😉
These are interesting points AV and Asp Amp.. I guess that relates maybe to the dissociation… Your description of politicians face and eyes changing was helpful Asp Amp. I’ll look out for that.
Hi Jade, yes, there is sometimes a difference (in behaviours, or, reactions – even the micro-seconds count when it comes to observing them and knowing what to look for !) in between ie a politician being questioned on the spot, or, pre-recorded interview questions…the more ‘mastered’ they are in their ‘narc-craft’, the ‘nuances’ may be less apparent (or, depending on the school / sub school of the narcissism). Dissociation is an interesting topic and not necessarily ‘restricted’ to narcissists, it could apply to those who are / may be neurodivergent (also consider, if present, any comorbidity, CPTSD, PSTD).
I just found your comment on micro-seconds Asp 😅 so true. I like paying close attention to those giveaways now on TV and IRL. Yes re dissociation and CPTSD etc too. I can be “away with the fairies” quite a lot, which though pleasant can be a form of it too I believe.
You may enjoy HG’s video ‘Inside The Mind Of A Narcissistic Psychopath’ (I enjoyed the artistry of that one).
Thanks again Asp. I’ll watch that with my coffee later. ☕
Ugh. Number 2. Thanks AV.
I’ve seen the vacant look on HGs short clips on YT of TOW. I thought HG had said that was a glimpse of the emptiness within, is that something different do you think? 🤔
Hi Two,
No, I think it is probably the same look. The strange thing is that I’ve not seen it on my mom. With her I’ve seen thinking about her next manipulation, occasionally the 404, the intake of fuel as in that number 2, but surprisingly not the blank look. Like she’s more engaged in some way, with her own mind? With others? Not sure the difference but it is different. I can see where TOW would have that look though, nothing of substance in there.
Hi Jade,
“Is it like they’re kind of getting high, Leigh?”
I already answered this but I was thinking about this a little bit more. When my narc daughter makes someone angry, it makes her laugh. Its like she’s fizzing. Its a very natural laugh. Its the fuel tickling her. She can’t control it. It just happens. Its unnerving to watch. I’ve seen it a couple of times.
Hi Leigh and, two (you might be interested),
“When my narc daughter makes someone angry, it makes her laugh. Its like she’s fizzing. Its a very natural laugh. Its the fuel tickling her.”
Regarding the laughter; have witnessed a similar narc response to control and fuel, but in differing circumstances.
When my son was still having contact with his father, including phone calls, (my son was 5 or 6) I would encourage my son to have these calls on his own, while I left the room – but I also happened to be recording the calls back then. Just in case.
My ex would attempt to exert control over me by drawing me into the calls by using our son. My ex would say “Go ask mom about this ..(fill in the blank)” or if my son mentioned me in conversation, his father would say “Yeah, maybe you should go check with your mom on that…”, etc.
One of these times, when my ex was trying to involve me in the conversation, I specifically said – to our son – “This phone call is for you to spend time talking with your Dad, just your Dad.” And, I saw, in that moment, that my son clued into something (why didn’t I want to talk to his dad?), and he called out, while I was leaving the room: “Do you still love Daddy?”
Well, I hightailed it out of there to avoid answering his question (I took refuge in the basement washroom) because I wouldn’t say the truth: that I didn’t love his father anymore, and I couldn’t lie to him and say that I did still love his father – plus, the awkwardness of the whole moment. (The call was still ongoing.)
In the recording of the call, you can hear my son’s voice trailing off as he went in pursuit of me and him calling out, more than once: “Do you still love Daddy??” Also, in the background of the call you could hear his father’s gleeful laughter.
Hi WC,
I find the laughter particularly disturbing and upsetting. But that could be because its my daughter too. I think your ex is the same as my daughter, LMR Somatic and so their facade flickers.
Leigh,
Disturbing, yes. And, yes, my ex is LMRN, like your daughter – but he has both somatic and cerebral leanings, therefore ‘elite’.
When my lawyer (the one with empathy), at the time, learned of the laughter in the call, he declared “Sick.”
And even though we are educated here and know that it is due to the influx of fuel; it still comes across as disturbing.
Thank you WC and Leigh for your examples about the “tickling” of fuel. They both make a lot of sense though absolutely, disconcerting! 🥴 I felt like I might have seen it now you’ve both described those situations…
Who cares:
Here’s how I handled it… if it helps….
My daughter was 5, my son 7 when I divorced. Children are VERY smart. They know who is who. I recommend telling your child what I did. “ Everyone is entitled to their own special relationship.It is your own. It doesn’t matter what mommy thinks of daddy or daddy thinks about mommy. It’s about YOU. Your daddy loves you very much and that is what is important ….your relationship between you and daddy that has nothing to do with me! I want that relationship to be the best ever! ( Hugs) And that’s reality. She is now 23 and has a great separate relationship with mom and dad. It’s her own:) I am happy on my side!
Hello Contagious,
Thank-you for sharing how you handled things with your children and your ex. I am glad that your way worked out well for yourself and your daughter. Just to clarify, though, my phone call story was from years ago; my son currently has no contact with his father.
Perhaps, back then, during the phone calls, I may have been open to similar suggestions.
“Your daddy loves you very much and that is what is important ….”
Unfortunately, just like I could not bring myself to admit that I no longer loved my son’s father – and I couldn’t stomach lying to my son by falsely stating that I still loved his father – I would not choose to say those quoted words above, with the knowledge that that my son’s father is a narcissist, and thereby contributing to my son buying into an illusion that will inevitably let him down.
“Children are VERY smart”
Agreed. And that’s part of my problem…even if I could get those words to somehow leave my lips, conveying to my son that his narc father “loves” him…my son would be able to discern whether or not I genuinely meant, or believed, such a statement. Back then, when he was only 5 or 6, he was already pretty astute at reading people. Especially me – he is quite adept at reading my facial expressions, tone of voice, and making determinations by what I *don’t* say.
The way I handled it was to train my child, overtime, that I will not speak about the past, nor will I speak about his father. He has learned that there is no point in asking mom questions about dad. This way I trained my own brain not to dwell on the past (strengthening my ‘no contact’), I do not fuel (second-handedly) my ex by discussing him with my son, and I also don’t create any evidence of having influenced my son’s view of his father (something which you are repeatedly accused of, by the other side, during family court interactions with a narcissist.)
WC,
I also couldn’t bring myself to say I still loved my children’s father, nor that he loved them. His leaving and never coming back showed them the extent of his love for them. I told them they could have a relationship with him if they wanted to, I was hopeful they’d not want to of course, because I deem him as dangerous. And, I stressed “when you’re older”. They didn’t know so much of what happened between he and I, things I will never share with them. But they knew what had happened between he and them. They now have mixed relationships with him, some see him, others never want to. I still worry about the safety of the ones who do but he is very sick now so I think less dangerous in a way. No energy. Plus, the time is extremely limited, 2-3 hours per month or less.
I am so happy for you about your situation as it is currently, so much better for your son, and also you.
Hi AV,
“I told them they could have a relationship with him if they wanted to, I was hopeful they’d not want to of course, because I deem him as dangerous. And, I stressed “when you’re older”’
Similarly, if my son, as an adult, wants to have a relationship with his father, he’s free to. I intend not to influence his decision, either way, and just try to teach him critical thinking skills about human behaviour in the interim. (I already know how it will all play out anyway.)
If he indicates he wants a relationship with his father, as a child (because there is a provision for this in the court order), I will deal with that bridge when I come to it.
“I still worry about the safety of the ones who do but he is very sick now so I think less dangerous in a way. No energy. Plus, the time is extremely limited, 2-3 hours per month or less.”
It’s good to hear that your children have limited contact and that is, somewhat, less danger to them.
The vacant look! Yes, I think I know what you’re talking about. I agree that its not the 404 look because that would mean he doesn’t understand. I think Trump very much understands. I think he just doesn’t care so he’s no longer tuning in to what the other person os saying. But its weird because I think he can still hear them because he will answer them as well.
Its very bizarre!
Yes Leigh, that’s what I mean, my dad would still answer also, but his mind was elsewhere. It is bizarre.
Is it like they’re kind of getting high, Leigh?
No, I don’t think it looks like they’re getting high. I think it looks like they’re getting a power surge. Like when Bruce Banner turns to the Hulk or Clark Kent turns to Superman.
Hi AV and Leigh,
I loved your last line re TOW, AV! I saw the same blank look on amber h too. Vacuous individuals indeed. Yeh, my mum’s like yours. AV .. more engaged. I haven’t seen the 404 but “heard” it.
When our dog died, was when I realised about my mum. The first weird thing she did was burst into tears on the phone when I told her. Considering she doesn’t like animals particularly or our dog, it stuck out like a sore thumb. Lots of shenanigans &.. 24 hours later I knew! She was horrible at a horrible time. But I recognised the crying from HGs video about the imitation game. She really chose wrong that day.. I’m glad though. It opened my eyes. 👀
Hi all,
Re the blank look. My MIL who I’m pretty sure isn’t a narcissist and is lovely did what I’m about to describe and also my dad who I’m not sure about, too (separately). When something challenging to them was raised, as it was necessary to do so, but in a sensitive and gentle way they just stared blankly but didn’t say anything.
My feeling with my dad was possibly a stonewalling and acting a bit like he didn’t understand which was his MO at times but I’m not sure.. he just sat there. MIL had no other red flags. I think in both scenarios it was weird so we just moved along as nothing was happening 🤔 neither brought it up afterwards or said “sorry I wasn’t able to talk about that thing the other day.. ” or such like.
Hi Jade,
Without knowing what that challenge was, its hard to say what could’ve been happening. I want to give you an alternative view so I’ll give you an example of how it might happen with me. I promise I’m not trying to confuse you. Ugh!
I’m my husband’s top lieutenant. There are times that means I’ve had to help him protect his facade. If someone asked me a challenging question about what’s going on and I wasn’t prepared, I would freeze too. Then I would have to quickly come up with something.
Was your MIL or Dad covering for someone or was the question about them?
One other thing also is that I can lie. I don’t like to do it but I will. My lies are usually lies of omission though. So if someone asks me a question that I wasn’t prepared to answer, it might take me a minute to answer. I’m processing all the scenarios in my head and contemplating. can I tell them the truth, do I have to sugar coat, do I have to make up a lie, will I get caught in the lie, etc. etc. etc. That might look like a blank stare too.
Ugh! I know it sounds terrible! But its important to remember that empaths aren’t angels.
Ah, ok thanks Leigh. Definitely seen it on one ex friend (the smoker) and possibly one brother then. Will keep an eye out now I know..
Thanks re the blank stare Leigh. Don’t worry 😊 I’m human too, we can all lie or omit to smooth things or play for time can’t we?
MIL is hard to explain but I think falls into your camp. My dad was asking him not to leave mum alone in hospital without getting someone else to take over (before I “knew” re mum). I was very gentle and said I knew he didn’t like hospitals etc. I think I’m both occasions it was gently approached and necessary but maybe a generation thing too. Not knowing how to talk about certain things. I guess I’d feel I’d have to say something later but we’re all different aren’t we?
Hi Jade,
If I was covering for my husband, I wouldn’t bring it up later. I wouldn’t want to give someone an opportunity to figure out I was covering for him.
I can definitely see the situation at the hospital being a generational thing. The older generation is very stoic and don’t show a lot of emotion or expression. And for men, its even less. But I also want to say that no one likes going to the hospital so I could see that as a cop out also.
After being here for about a year, it hit me like a tidal wave about my parents. I’m linking a video. It might help you get closer to a determination about your dad.
https://narcsite.com/2021/03/04/the-impact-of-the-parental-narcissist/
This article might help too:
https://narcsite.com/2025/11/28/the-cold-comfort-12/
Just finishing catching up on comments today before I go (it is hotel California!!). Yes I agree re generations and hospitals too Leigh.
The questions you asked about were related to them. We had to address things in both cases really and did so sensitively. I know what you mean about freezing.. I’ve done it too. I think the former just couldn’t deal with talking about the thing because of other issues. My dad definitely played the “eejit” to get out of stuff but as we said, eroded empathy empaths and narcs alike can do this. 🤔
I think what it was with my parents, was seeing that they both abandoned each other when they really needed each other which had an impact. I have more sympathy for my dad as he hated hospitals but he just left her without talking to one of us unfortunately. My mum got my dad to drive her a long way to the airport and went on holiday after he was discharged for something serious (and she was a nurse). He agreed too to be fair but he shouldn’t have been driving. I’m aware not everyone’s like me of course but I didn’t know how she relaxed on holiday.. I understand now of course.
It was also hard as you couldn’t talk to either of them about it even in a non challenging way as they’d both ensure they didn’t have to have the conversation. My mum, as she’s done many times before, went silent before she headed off on hols as she “knew” what she was doing. Luckily I realised that both of them would cause the “kids” worry without a second thought so stopped engaging or worrying 5 years ago when my mum at least came to light. Dad isn’t clear but his behaviour was enough to stro back equally. It’s been pretty peaceful since and I’m learning how to filter the BS.
Thank you again for those links. I promise I’ll do my homework 😁
“You can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave.” Lol! #facts!
I think both your parents abandoning each other in their time of need is a red flag. I hope you find the answers that you need!
I’ll miss our conversations and I hope you can check in every once in awhile!
“I’ll miss our conversations and I hope you can check in every once in awhile!”
Sorry Leigh, I just found this! I didn’t last long, did I? 😄 Our conversations were part of coming back tbh. ❤️
Yes.. red flags both ways. 🚩 I agree. They were an odd pair. They both did this on numerous occasions. They kind of got their own way covertly against each other but acted “happy” on the surface. 🤷♀️
I had one more memory pop back re dad. Another time, mum was pushing to get her own way about where to eat when visiting us in our area, years ago. My dad said something like “you don’t always get your own way” or something like that. I realise the other comment about mum being in control all the time and apologising to me before he died were related. Moments of honesty. 🧐 None we’re nasty or lashing out which he could also do, but just a statement of fact. My gut feeling is he wasn’t a narcissist but maybe I’ll check with HG one day. I’m feeling at peace for now. 🙏
Ps do feel free to let me know if I miss any of your comments. Hopefully I’ll catch them all. X
Hi Jade,
LOL! I totally get the pull of the blog. I’ve been here for almost 7 years!
I’m glad you’re at peace about your father. Its always best to listen to your gut.
Please feel free to do the same for me. I try to stay on top of comments but sometimes I lose some too.
Ooh. Just watched the blank look video and remember seeing one! I went on a blind date before I met my husband. Nice guy j remember thinking, we were having a drink and I can’t remember exactly what happened but a drink spilt all over me. My date sat in his seat and didn’t react at all. I remember another couple nearby and the guy checking I was ok.. but not my date. I put it down to him bring shy and did see him a few times but nothing came of it. It definitely stuck out at the time though as I remember telling friends when they asked about the date. As HG says, there’s normally a reflex when we have empathy. Crikey!
Jade,
You dodged a bullet there. He sounds like a weirdo!
Yup Leigh! 🎯😁
A Victor:
My experience of a stare is different:
1. The cartel lawyer I faced’s stare frightened me and made me feel violated. It was cold, cruel, invasive. Buthe cud switch it on and off.
2. The pedogile stare at trial… the look at his victim…. someone he raped from 8-14 was rat like. I sat next to him. He was a fat greasy man who stared at the videos during his trial like he was hungry, like a furtive rat.
3. My ex mother in law. I am not sure anyone is in there. Once…. She was a five year old girl swinging her feet and talking like a child saying she wanted her whole life to have a friend and the next morning same empty stare but screaming “She would not make breakfast and telling me she heard my husband and I make love.”. She looked like the bride of Frankenstein.
4. My ex husband. Once he wasn’t there. He was violent on booze and had a different accent, voice and face expression. No one inside. BUT after…. He quit drinking. Violence no more. 10 years. But I recall looking at him one night sober. This desperate stare of emptiness and depression. I would say I Iove you. He would reply “ really?”what was weird is he could have been happy that day but then out of the sudden he would have this stare into nothing. I have likedened it into a criminal psychopathic eyes.i had to do a preliminary suspected drug cartel torture and murderer. Nothing was there but this intense pressure like a bulldozer. I met two other murderers both in jail. Seen a stare.Nothing inside but one had a dead tornado and the other head a dead empty hole. There was feeling behind the emptiness. But something’s not right. It’s not Normal. People get sad, depressed, etc… there is this blank nobody home look that I have seen but it isn’t normal. With my ex and his mum it was dissociative and I can believe would last a long time. With the criminal murderers I think no one was home. Permanent. With that one scary attorney,I think he could mask it. None of this makes sense but this was my impression.
Has anyone seen a sly, schadenfreude kind of look when the person is “stirring the pot”, winding up someone who’s upset or upsetting them further, manipulating a situation or throwing a third party under the bus? And a big smile and laugh and glint in the eye when it works? 😬
I have a list of “suspects” as you know, one I just realised did this A LOT.. 👀 my dad. And a lot of other covert stuff. But did apologise to me before he died for not being a better dad. 🤔 It wasn’t like number 2 on contagious’ list but that reminded me whilst we’re talking about “looks”..
Yes. My mom does this a lot. When I see it, I leave, ASAP.
Looking back I remember my ex watching me when I was upset and he was upsetting me further with his responses. He did not have that look on his face at those times but did when he would tell me ahead when he was going to goad someone, and I’d try to stop him. Then he’d goad them anyway, it was a win/win for him all the way around.
Hi Jade or two,
“Has anyone seen a sly, schadenfreude kind of look when the person is “stirring the pot”, winding up someone who’s upset or upsetting them further, manipulating a situation or throwing a third party under the bus? And a big smile and laugh and glint in the eye when it works?”
Yes, I’ve seen that a lot with family members.
I was being manipulated, used and duped; and I could see it. I could see I was being duped.
At the time, I thought it was a case of “damned if you do and damned if you don’t.” I couldn’t just walk away and have no contact.
Thinking about it in hindsight, while I was with them, I developed a kind of resilience – or immunity – that prevented me from seeing how abusive they really were.
Now that I have ‘almost no contact,’ the resilient ‘skin’ I had has become thinner. When with them, I can only tolerate their manipulations for a short time before needing to leave.
I still have empathy for them, though. That’s who they are. That’s their personality. They didn’t ask to be that way. Even if they know somewhere deep down that it’s wrong, they don’t have the brain wiring to self-reflect and change themselves.
Imagine it like being in a locked prison cell with a narcissist. In order to have a peaceful life and to obtain better living standards, you need to ‘negotiate’ with the narcissist in some way.
The fact is that you can’t ‘negotiate’ with a narcissist. They are going to manipulate to gain control at every moment. Therefore, you would actually need to give them control to keep the peace. At the same time, you need to be aware that giving them control is going to mean that you will have to ‘play their game,’ so to speak, while locked in the cell with them.
Whatever you do – whether you fight, fawn, flee (e.g. dissociate), or freeze (e.g. become unresponsive) – your response is harmful to your ‘self.’
Thanks for asking the question, Jade. You have helped me to think more thoroughly about this.
By the way, I think of you as ‘Jade.’ I think the name Jade suits you better. It’s going to take some time for me to get used to calling you ‘two.’ 😉🙂
Hi WN,
I’m sorry you experienced the sly, schadenfreude looks too.
“At the time, I thought it was a case of “damned if you do and damned if you don’t.” I couldn’t just walk away and have no contact.”
—>Me too. I only saw it in the last few years and also towards younger children.
“Thinking about it in hindsight, while I was with them, I developed a kind of resilience – or immunity – that prevented me from seeing how abusive they really were.”
—-> yup. I think what you wrote was my upbringing in a nutshell if I’m honest. Honestly, imo they did a “good job” considering their respective natures but this statement absolutely applies.
“Now that I have ‘almost no contact,’ the resilient ‘skin’ I had has become thinner. When with them, I can only tolerate their manipulations for a short time before needing to leave.”
YES! And with others like this IRL at work etc.
“I still have empathy for them, though. That’s who they are. That’s their personality. They didn’t ask to be that way. Even if they know somewhere deep down that it’s wrong, they don’t have the brain wiring to self-reflect and change themselves.”
YES!
I get it WN. I love my parents but understand their respective abilities to love were limited by their natures (narcs or not) so the love I feel for them to them is from a far now (ANC) It’s hurt me too much till starting to learn about narcissism at 45yo. but in a way, the insidious nature makes and made it even harder at times. Always deniable plausibility. Always people who think they’re the bees knees 🐝🦵! ready to defeat their honour.
I’m happy to be called two or Jade btw 😄 I’ll add two to the profile but Jade feels more like a “proper” name to me too… It’s just that
I get a little paranoid someone I know IRL will put two and two together and recognise me. Anyone else get this? I also never kept a diary as I was paranoid about my parents finding it lol 🥷 probably paranoia but also a little logical maybe too…
Thank you two.
I’m sorry you experienced the sly, duper’s delight as well. And yes, I agree, the insidious nature of it is very difficult to accept.
If I think about it, when it’s my own parent, one of the people who is ‘supposed’ to love and care about me the most out of everyone, it’s really twisted and sick that they have a feeling of schadenfreude or ‘fuel’ from their child being upset or deceived.
It’s something I’ll never truly understand. Even now, when I’m annoyed at them or remember things from the past, I may be angry or fed up or whatever, but I still don’t wish them harm or feel delight if they’re upset.
It sounds like your family dynamic with your mum and dad was similar to mine. While growing up, I thought I had a relatively ‘normal’ family. As I got older though, there were things that were very odd and unfair, but I was the only one in the family that thought there was anything wrong. Therefore, it appeared to me like I was the one that needed to change or see things differently.
My sibling was the golden child and I was the scapegoat. It was always emotional and psychological abuse, never physical and never really obvious or blatant. My mother was very good at winding me up and must have loved the fuel she received from seeing me upset. If I argued with her or raised my voice, my father would tell me I was being too sensitive or needed to calm down or needed to stop arguing. He was convinced it must have been something I had said or done – it was always like that. My father always took my mother’s side.
This was the family dynamic cemented in place for years. Since there was little information available on narcissism, I had no idea I was the family scapegoat. Instead, I thought I needed to ‘improve’ myself in order for things to change.
I know what you mean about the deniable plausibility and others ready to jump in to defend their honour. It reminds me of a standard line my mother would use, “I’ve spent hours making dinner and that’s the thanks I get.” It was a masterclass in how to induce guilt in your children.
It’s funny that you said you were 45 when you started to learn about narcissism. I was around that age too and I’ve heard other people say they were roughly that age when they began to realise what was happening.
I think as ‘humans,’ our lives have natural life phases that most people go through at certain ages.
I’ll call you ‘two’ from now on. A couple of comments and I’m already used to it ☺️ I know what you mean about not wanting to be recognised IRL. Being able to talk openly here is very freeing and helps a lot. I couldn’t say all the things I say here to people I know IRL.
I completely agree WN. I think learning about the narcissistic viewpoint and how it differs to ours has helped a lot. They’re wired completely differently aren’t they? I mostly feel compassion like you but logically and as far away as possible too as advised by Mr T!
I am sorry you were the SG. 😕 I’m not sure any of the roles are great either but definitely not the SG. I’ve never quite been able to work out SG and GC roles in my family. I was possibly a GC in a sense as my mum was delighted I was so compliant growing up (her words). My sister is the opposite to me so mum had a surprise there lol! I am definitely not the GC now lol! I have read the can shift too understandably. To be fair, I feel like they tried not to have favourites within their capabilities though (I’m aware if my mum is a narcissist though that it was beneficial to her too, not to play favourites).
I’m sorry about what you had to deal with. It’s so covert which makes it harder to spot or name, imo. My dad didn’t obviously take my mum’s side but definitely never helped us and enabled her and did his fair share of “winding up” too. And yes, guilt and obligation are so powerful aren’t they? Especially when they come from our parents. It’s crazy isn’t it? Like you, I was always trying to improve myself too! I bought far too many self help books in the 90s! 🤦♀️
Interesting you were a similar age, WN. I have heard that too. I think I always knew deep down that something was “off” but couldn’t get there till then. I think I would have found it much more difficult to realise when I was younger, especially as I hadn’t met my husband then as he’s been a huge support with this. Do you think that was similar for you?
It took me a while to get used to my “new name” too and I kept commenting as “Jade” lol. Thanks re understanding IRL too. It’s a huge help to meet others that “get it” and benefit from HGs knowledge.
Hi two,
“I think I always knew deep down that something was “off” but couldn’t get there till then.”
Yes, for me this knowledge that something was “off” was there too. The way I experienced it was that things didn’t seem “real.” For example, when I’d spend time with my family and we’d talk, or go somewhere, or do something, etc, while we were together they’d say things that seemed like we were connecting but there was no real, genuine connection. Their words didn’t match their actions, or they’d say one thing one day and then forget about what they had said the next day.
HG’s post ‘Shifting Sands’ describes it.
At the time, it didn’t feel like outright abuse or even gaslighting. It was more like psychological mindgames. It was frustrating, maddening at times. I remember thinking I just wanted things to feel “real.”
And yes, it was something I lived with for a long time because I believed it would change, until it actually escalated instead and there were material consequences. Then I began researching because of how badly it was affecting me.
I remember the self-help books in the 90s. Looking back, there were so many. I remember reading ‘The Road Less Travelled’ and ‘People of the Lie’ by M Scott Peck. They have stuck with me. There were others that were forgettable.
It’s so good that narcissism and personality disorders are much better understood now.
There’s a YouTube interviewer called Brad Carr who has interviewed HG before. He has a recent video with Dr Peter Salerno where they discuss narcissists having intentional cruelty.
The previous long-held theories that claim narcissists are ‘created’ due to childhood wounding; cold or harsh mothering; adverse childhood experiences (ACEs); etc are now being questioned with scepticism.
Academics are now saying narcissists and psychopaths are not compensating for insecurities, or acting out a defence strategy due to early environment. Rather, there are more people saying that they have certain biological, inherited genetic ‘traits’ regardless of environmental factors, and that these traits make them prone to being intentionally cruel and abusive.
It’s interesting to see how theories and beliefs are evolving.
I also think it’s a huge help to meet and ‘talk’ to others that get it.
You’re very easy to talk with, two. It’s been a pleasure ☺️
Thank you for your lovely comment WN, sorry I missed it. I left and then I didn’t leave and it just have slipped through the net! I have found you very easy to talk with too. 🙏
Also i found an old comment of yours on the effects of the parental narcissist thread and pretty much EVERYTHING you said, was my experience. Sooo similar. I thought I’d commented but I think maybe i didn’t press publish. 🤦♀️There’s a certain kind of frustration from the deniable abuse isn’t there?
Yes, i read the road less travelled too! I was always searching. I think it’s my make up but also because if my upbringing. I travelled read, studied and finally learnt a lot of the answers were closer to home! I’ve heard children of the lie is good too.
Yes I think understanding that genetics is a big part of narcissism is so important. And also that it isn’t always “trauma” but also the LOCE can be being put on a pedestal too. It’s so interesting. I feel like we’re very fortunate to be alive when this knowledge is becoming known and also to have this particular space with HG too. I don’t know about you, and I don’t regret anything, but my life would have been very different if I’d access to this information at a younger age. I’m pleased kids now can access information on narcissism. I wonder about some of my nieces and nephews growing up and if they’re putting any things together like I did years ago before they started fitting together…🤔
Gulp. Yes that shifting sands article hits the nail on the head, WN! 🥴
Thank you for your lovely comments as well, two.
You’re lovely and engaging. Sorry that it’s taken a while to reply.
I’m glad you could relate to one of my old comments. I’ve actually forgotten about many of the comments and conversations from a few years ago.
What I remember though, is that when I first found the blog, I was still coming to terms with the whole topic of narcissism and the discovery that my mother was a narcissist. It had come as a shock and the realisation about everything that had happened to me over a lifetime took a long time to sink in.
Since then, the realisation has become more like just a normal part of life, which has made it easier to live with, although it’s still difficult, it’s not as raw.
I think that if people who have just become aware, or who are working through the initial stages of awareness, are reading comments here on the blog, it may help them to learn of similar experiences. When you are dealing with the aftermath of abuse or you are alone with a racing mind, I think it helps to know that you aren’t actually alone.
I also think that it’s great that we are living in a time when this information is readily available, especially for young people starting out having serious relationships or who just want to learn more about human psychology.
Yep, I definitely think my life would have been a lot more different had this information been available years ago and readily accessible like it is now.
Thanks for the chat, two, and hope you have a great weekend! 😊🌻
Thank you so much WN and for your lovely compliment. ❤️ Though I find it difficult here at times I’m finding it so good to talk about stuff with people that get it and HGs work specifically.
Yes, I think nearly 6 years on I can mostly let my mum’s stuff roll off me as we’re ANC too but it takes a while. Learning about mid rangers has been so helpful too as it was hard to grasp with my family, like yours, because of the covertness. I can see clear as day now that she’s a narcissist every time I interact with her but I do understand why others don’t see it. The facade is good and issues “deniable” if you don’t know. It’s a special kind of gaslighting.
It is so good to have this information available now and for younger people, I agree. I think tho of course narcs will always ensnare victims, the education must be stopping some of them getting their leg over and continuing their “legacy”🤣
One more thing. I think the stare is abject despair. No matter what form it takes. It is a human who has lost themselves, their souls. No identity there. But some kernel of them knows this…despair maybe anger? They might mask it or perhaps the mask is gone. This person lives in an abyss. No sense of location. Drowning. It’s sad.Even if they regain safety of function. They don’t truly exist. It’s dissociative.its not reality. They appear in different forms but it’s not them. There is no them. Only a closer version to norm to fit in. I think the more aware of their condition are angrier. Colder. More adept at fitting in but more subtly aggressive to fight the hole inside. But Money and power is like Dante’s Inferno where the rich have lots of food but cannot feel fed. Starving. The less aware aren’t aware but feel this empty lost feeling strongly at times that makes them fearful and anxious andlash out or hide. Primitive flight or fright. Others…. Those with nothing at all inside are like reptiles. Barely functioning . And my guess averages or less intelligence. Then there are the whirlwind empty shells that are empty but compulsive…pedopiles and sociopaths. Empty but active anxiety. Dark holes of energy sucking the emptiness in like an insect eating itself.Thats my impression of the stare. No solid identity. A empty hole with a fragment of awareness but a different energy behind the stare.
I just reread this comment Contagious. I think you’ve nailed a lot of things in this statement. You’ve been unfortunate to have had exposure to the whole gambit but appreciate you sharing your observations.
As do I, appreciate you sharing it Contagious. I also thought, I’m glad to not have to see some of those looks, they would terrify me! You are a strong woman Contagious!
I agree AV! You should write a book about your life Contagious (if you haven’t already)! Considering how empathetic you obviously are, I don’t know how you manage it but can see you do and very well.
Thanks A Victor…. But it is obvious we have all seen it in narcs. In a criminal justice system with ASPD ( psychopaths and sociopaths) and narcs, you probably see it more. But I is the most frightening to see it in someone you love. I would rather go back to being a DA than see it again in my personal life. The stare is empty, it’s soulless, it’s death. I think what I call the light ( and it literally sparkled in my father and aunts eyes, but was there in my mothers too) is missing. What is a soul? What is empathy? If a ASPD and narcs have no empathy then logic would say those are eyes of someone without empathy. That’s the stare. A = C so if A= B then C = B. Logic
Yes Contagious, seeing it in someone you love would be the worst. I’m sorry you had to see that. Glad for where you are now though, your understanding.
Hello Two:
I have written books. The first was a legal thriller. No takers. The second was a children’s book. Some interest but I needed a different artist as she did anime…. I was an actress ( commercials, CBS movie- brief lines), theater until 30. I paint. I have a very artistic decor for my house ( many comment.) I come from a family of artists and when I retire, that’s what I shall do plus garden and go back to charity work. But honestly, I am far from unique. In the criminal justice system, cops, DAs, investigators, profilers ( HG never has to worry about work, not that he does of course but, he would be in high demand if he chose this field) . … these people see many ASPD and Narcs for decades. Why I left… and quickly. I don’t have the stomach for it … too sensitive… took it home…. And private law makes more money. But thank God that there are military, prosecutors and cops to protect us from harm throughout the world! Hats off to them!
You have got many talents Contagious. I loved drawing but stopped around 16 and started again this year and am loving it.
Ps I turned off comment notifications and just check the blog now which has helped as I used to find receiving so many notifications a bit overwhelming.
Hi Two,
I can get overwhelmed by the notifications as well. I have to check every notification so its gone from my phone. I need my app icon badges clear as well, so whenever I see a badge pop up, I have to check it so it goes away. I turn a lot of notifications off because of this.
Here’s the other issue though, with certain things, I want to see everything but I just don’t want to be interrupted. I lose my focus when I’m interrupted. With the blog,I have notifications off. But I have it set up so that I receive an email for every comment, blog article & like. I have a special email just for the blog and I don’t get notifications for the email either. I check the blog randomly throughout the day. I check my emails about 3 times a week, this way I still see what’s going on, on the blog.
That helps me not feel overwhelmed by all the hustle & bustle on the blog. I just wanted to share.
That’s really helpful, thanks Leigh. I’ve never been on a blog with so many comments! It seems to be working better for me with no notifications and just checking. I want to find the happy medium as I recognise the value of HGs information and the community here.
Sorry I meant to say Asp Amp, not Leigh (I got my comments muddled 🤦♀️).
Sorry I muddled the names, Asp Amp 🙏♥️ (not Leigh).
Mm. I didn’t realise there are so many types of stare either. 👀 I’ve seen the devaluation one a few times from an ex “friend”. I think I’ve also seen one that looked confused like, “why isn’t this appliance functioning like she usually does?”!
Hi Jade, it rather amused me to read “why isn’t this appliance functioning like she usually does?”!, as I observed a look as if it (referring the narcissist as “it” **) was rather annoyed.
** referring to HG’s video ‘This Mindset Equals Victory Over the Narcissist’.
Hehe! Thanks Leigh. I’ll check that one out. I think HG must have loads of videos on YT I haven’t stumbled across yet despite thinking I’ve seen all the titles! 🤓 The labyrinth is neverending (which is good!).
I’ll watch this video today Asp Amp. My mum has sent one of her minions in today to give the non working appliance a “nudge” to see if it will start again. Mm.
The computer says no! 😈😄
Lol Jade! I know its very serious but I loved your description! Once you know what’s happening though, I do find it amusing to watch them try!
Happy New Year, Jade!
Haha thanks Leigh! 😂
I felt quite pleased that I didn’t feel triggered at all with the “subtle-not-subtle” nudge from her friend/lieutenant. I think learning more here and how it all has to work helps me feel less emotional and find a little humour!
That’s so true, Jade! Having this knowledge, does make it much easier!
That was a really helpful video Asp Amp.. thanks again! ✊ I appreciate the recommendations. Off to read the articles you suggested. 🤓
Now I’ve got Leigh and Asp Amp in the same place, I wanted to ask if you recall HG doing any videos on how not to get so emotionally involved in things (asking for a friend 😉)?
Hi Jade,
I think you’re asking about using logical thinking vs emotional thinking.
Start with this article. It’s incredibly helpful.
https://narcsite.com/2021/05/09/how-your-emotional-thinking-causes-excuses-8/#comments
Thank you Leigh! Just found this. 😅
Jade, may I suggest you to obtain ‘Fuel’ from the Knowledge Vault? That will explain more about narcissist’s behaviours when it comes to asserting their control to obtain fuel. It is a really good book.
Thank you Asp. 🙏 And for all your help and suggestions. x
Hi Jade,
Workplace narc had a seduction stare that worked on me like a charm. UGH!
After the formal intimate relationship was over, we still had to work together. One day I was leaving work and he was sitting in his car. I don’t know if he saw that I saw him. I had sunglasses on and made it a point to look the other way. He just sat there and watched me. Creeper!
My narc husband has a look of derision. He’s a lower mid range victim narc but he thinks he’s the best thing since sliced bread. He used to give me that look all the time. Its interesting. He no longer does that. There was a time when I stopped reacting to that look. Maybe his narcissism realizes that no longer works on me. If I saw it now, I would chuckle in my head and walk away.
Hi Leigh (sorry I muddled you and Ask Amp up.. but a compliment both ways ♥️).
I’ve never seen a “romantic” stare that I remember at least (luckily eh? 🥴). Ugh creeper’s the word, Leigh. It must have been weird to see this other side to him so quickly after your relationship.. like night and day? Maybe he thought the stare would work again! 🙄
Ha! I’m glad narc husbands derision look has gone! Yes, the less reaction they get the better. One thing I’ve been meaning to raise is how suffering from low self esteem and doubt growing up, i often felt others had no or at least not so many issues as I did, with this type of thing. Then I got older and thought maybe that’s not true. I think now, learning about the smirks, looks of derision, sneers and stares I saw from being surrounded by a lot of these personalities they do often think they’re the best thing since sliced bread, like your narcissist husband. At least on the surface anyway. 🤷♀️
Hi Jade,
At first, I didn’t think that incident was creepy. Ugh! I thought it was romantic! What the heck is wrong with me, lol! He used to stand in my doorway to my office, just looking at me. Its terrible but it made me feel wanted and special. Now I know he was just a creepy stalker. Weirdo for sure!
Narcs absolutely think they’re the best thing since sliced bread. Even the mid range narcs that act like they’re not good enough. Its just a pity play. I can’t find where Mr. Tudor says that narcs don’t have low self esteem. I know he’s said it in a comment before but I can’t find it. But I did find this article. All narcs really do think that they’re the piece de resistance!
https://narcsite.com/2022/10/27/you-should-18/
I completely get how the stare could work, Leigh. They’re damn good and I know from experience that we see what we want to see when falling in love (or lust), narcs or not. 🤷♀️
Good point about self esteem. I listened to a video last night.. I think the smirk and HG said whereas we’ll go over things at night, wonder if we did the right thing etc that narcs just don’t.. or that they think about how marvellous they are. I can really see that now.
I guess whether it’s “real” or not could be related to the creature and the buried, hermatically sealed “real self” but I guess that’s a different story! It often seems to me that the people who really could do with reflecting more, just don’t and vice versa! 🙃
This article… so good Leigh. 👌I’ve been dealing with this type of shiz today. #mmr I’m having a “I don’t give a shit day” and also thankful for all the knowledge I have now so all good! 😄
It’s still astounding to me though… The entitlement and delusion is so strong.
Hi Leigh
Happy new year!
I came across this article today and the bit about mirroring back to us what we wanted to see, made me think of our conversation:
https://narcsite.com/2019/11/23/i-am-empty-i-show-you-what-you-want-to-see
Also, I was wondering, have you always thought in a lot of detail about the things we discuss here or is it recent? Dynamics, subtle nuances of power between people etc. I have always done so, I think partly my mind and how it works and partly trying to “work out” other humans since I can remember. It struck me recently that HG is the only person I’ve encountered that seems to be observing people in a similar (but much more accurate and detailed way). I’m guessing some of us here will have always had this trait, and maybe some developed it as a result of looking for answers to their ensnarement. 🤔
Hi Jade,
I do observe people and my truthseeker trait does make me sees things that don’t add up. I’ll often say, wait a minute, that doesn’t make sense. What’s really going on here.
Sometimes I annoy people when I start asking questions. I’ve been asked on more than one occasion, why do I have to poke holes. Lol! I’m not poking holes. They’re already there. I’m just pointing them out.
In the past, I often made excuses for people’s behaviors or I believed everyone could be healed. There was a time when I believed that they just needed love, nurture & support. I thought if I was supportive, it could help them work through their issues. Boy oh boy was I wrong. Narcs can’t work through their issues.
As I’ve gotten older and learned from Mr. Tudor, I’ve become much more observant though.
Thanks for what you shared about the truth seeker trait and asking questions Leigh. Yes, I’m like you at getting to the bottom of things. You’ve probably noticed! I don’t ask questions so much but I think it’s a good idea too! That’s what we need to do to know more, isn’t it? I guess someone responding badly to polite, fair questions is a red flag too.
“I guess someone responding badly to polite, fair questions is a red flag too.” – I would definitely consider it a red flag.
Hi Jade,
I found the comment on self esteem.
https://narcsite.com/2020/07/20/promiscuous-boy-9/#comment-369570
That’s a very good point you made. We know the false self doesn’t suffer from low self esteem. But what about the creature/true self.
What appears to be low self esteem in narcs is actually a threat to control. Mr. Tudor made a comment to Amm on that same thread and he said it was an issue of control, not self esteem.
Ohh that’s a good comment Leigh. Thanks for digging that one out of the Tudor tower archives! Yup, thinking it’s low self esteem does keep us trapped and potentially feeling “too much” compassion. It’s always about the prime aims, as we’re taught, isn’t it?! I can see thinking of all my suspects that HG is of course right.
Yes, it really is about the prime aims! The prime aims drives everything the narc does.
There’s so many really good nuggets of info buried on this blog!
I know Leigh. You’ve helped me with remember to focus on the prime aims. I have wondered if I’m spending too much time here but there is so much HG info and so little time! It’s definitely the kind of knowledge that compounds as you learn from different angles.
Hi Jade,
Sometimes our emotional thinking will con us into thinking we don’t belong here or we’re spending too much time here. I do agree there needs to be a balance. Mr. Tudor is a narcissistic psychopath so we can become addicted to him as well. But what he gives us outweighs the addiction. Why do you think you’re spending too much time here?
I think too much at your best if times Leigh and I’m noticing it can feed that (especially when there’s conflict). I’d always keep learning from HG. Just keeping an eye on myself !
Hi Leigh:
I read Judith Herman’s book Trauma and Healing. Children with complex trauma and especially those who have disorganized attachment often don’t trust, have intimacy issues, have split thinking etc… the control they seek arises out of this lack of trust in others and this need to control to create safety. Ie hypersensitivity exists as there is a feeling of danger to avoid…. A secure attachment or a healthy person trusts others, trusts themselves , they feel safe as they know they have themselves… they don’t need to control others or the environment with others. I think this is “ control” and where it might come from… but what is self esteem then? To control arises out of a need even maybe a desperate need. In a non-narc…” .Relationships need not be based on performance, an image or maintaining a false self. “So while I get “ control”… somewhere in a non-narc’s psyche is a feeling of safety where you don’t need to control others or your relationship to others. What is that then? ????
Hi Contagious,
The way I understood Mr. Tudor’s comment on self esteem is that when a narcissist is criticized, it might look like they’re reaction is due to low self esteem but its really a threat to their control.
Non narcs don’t experience threats to control so they don’t react the same way. Non narcs may also have low self esteem. They may have trust issues though and want to control their environment because of those trust issues.
“Children with complex trauma and especially those who have disorganized attachment often don’t trust, have intimacy issues, have split thinking etc… the control they seek arises out of this lack of trust in others and this need to control to create safety. Ie hypersensitivity exists as there is a feeling of danger to avoid.” – Your comment here describes me to a tee.
Me too Leigh. I’m less prone to split thinking these days but I recognise I used to do it a lot and hubby would also point it out at times when I had a blind spot. I seem quite trusting I think and thought I was lol but said to my hubby recently that I realised it took between one and two decades to get there with him & I think he’s the only person I trust completely.
This is a sad and beautiful read.
The stare was the most eye contact I received as a child, and it was always a threat. My ex’s didn’t do this and I am glad, it would have freaked me out. A guy at church did it recently to me and it did freak me out, I didn’t go for a couple of weeks after the second time that it happened, hoping he just goes away.
Patri Narc doesn´t do it, but a former co-worker did and “my” latest narc did it very often! Thinking about what to do or say? 0_0 STARE. Sexually aroused? 0_0. STARE. Studying my reactions? 0_0. STARE. 404 moment? 0_0 STARE. Forgot something? 0_0 STARE. Learning something? 0_0. STARE. 😀 Eew!
Leela, wow! I just got 0_0 STARE You will pay later! I didn’t realize there were so many ways it could be used!
My goodness, what my last narc stared! Character trait akquisition: 0_0, gathering fuel: 0_0, gathering information: 0_0, aw! You name it! 😀 When the sun was shining, when it was raining, when it was overcast .. 😀 STARE! 😀
That would have made me run! Terrifying!
Oh yes, it indeed was! The first time I saw that stare I just wanted to run away, it scared the shit out for me! After a while I got used to it and it was just getting on my nerves.
YOU were scared?! Wow! It always surprises me when you are afraid of anything! But, it makes me feel like not such a wimp (I am a very big wimp!) if even you, our resident brave SE, has fears!
Hey, I´m still an Empath, not a Psychopath 😉 Yes it scared me because I saw the extreme aggression and the fury boiling under the surface. I didn´t know back then what it was, this was way before I came here 🙂 As mentioned, I very quickly noticed that something is very very off here, but couldn´t identify it. That stare was so intense, so aggressive, it reminded me on serial criminals. I just did not know, what the heck I´m dealing with here. My inner alarm bells just screamed “Alert, alert! EVIL! EVIL!” Fear is a natural reaction to things, people and animals, who could be dangerous for us and harm us. Fear is naturally designed to protect us from things wich are dangerous or even life-theatening for us. Thus, as I am a non-psychopath human being: Yes, I can feel fear like you. 🙂
Aw, I never doubted your Empath status!! I just thought you were very brave, still do, but I suppose it is all a matter of degrees. The summer narc, an ULA, scared me early on, big time. I don’t know if I would ever last long with one so aggressive, unless he was exceptionally charming and hid it well for a long time. But, man, that guy was also exciting! Still wish he wasn’t a narc, haha.
My ex was an Upper Lesser A too. A Somatic one. Interestingly, I was never scared of him. He carried a lot of aggression too, but he used to directly lash-out, curse, yell, whatever. As we know, those narcs do not operate a facade. “My” last Middle Mid Ranger A did. So there was the sugar coated facade and then the bubbling fury, the passive aggression, the dark abyss behind that facade. This was very confusing to me because I didn´t know anything about Middle Mid Rangers and of course not an iota about (mainly) Cerebrals.
He presented himself as a decent, good hearted, religious, humble and “empathic” man with a strong moral compass. And then I notice the dark abyss inside him and have no idea what the heck that could be? I just knew, there must be something very dark and very evil inside him and that was darker and by far the most “evil” I have ever seen. I didn´t witness the full horror, I was just a non-intimate secondary source but one thing I know: I don´t wanna know how devaluation looks like with THAT narc. There´s by far more malice behind that facade than I have ever seen in any narc I interacted with!
Hadn´t noticed that much malice before!
We had the opposite! My ex was a MMRA Somatic, I didn’t even think he could be a narcissist, he was so “mild”. And especially compared to my mother and even my dad. But, as you say, he does have that dark abyss in him, and try as I might, I could not fill it. The short, online/phone interaction I had was the ULA, also Somatic. His aggression is the reason I landed here. I didn’t know why I was so attracted to him when he was so absolutely dangerous. But of course, now I do understand it, it’s an addiction I was unaware that I had. Very good to learn.
“Daddy issues? Mommy issues?” Being honest with myself, I have to admit that I was attracted to Somatic narcs because of “daddy issues”. Patri Narc is Upper Mid Range Somatic and I was never good enough! Never looked good enough! Thus, I finally “wanted to prove daddy that I´m good enough”, I wanted “absolution” that “I´m good enough, that I look good enough, that I´m worthy to be considered as a beautiful high value woman”
Does that somehow make sense?
Yes, it makes sense. I think when we have not been gifted the approval and acceptance that all parent’s should give to their children, very often we are on a search for that from them for the rest of our lives, or theirs. I think it shows up in our choices, something unresolved that we’re still trying to bring together. With my dad gone now, I no longer feel the fear that I will someday do something to lose his “love”, and I have come to realize that even having a concern like that, it was never really love anyway. I knew my mother didn’t love me but I held out as much hope as I could that at least one of them did. So, I understand your comment entirely. I do not feel the need for absolution from my mother, she should look for it from me I think, instead, but I would not grant it to her even if I had such power.
You are a beautiful, high value woman, Leela, well good enough for every good thing. Not the same as your dad saying it, I realize, but here, it is shown to be true.
“I think when we have not been gifted the approval and acceptance that all parent’s should give to their children, very often we are on a search for that from them for the rest of our lives,…”
Amen, sister! Exactly! And this make as feel “not good enough”, this makes us look for “absolution”. Our narcs represent actually our parent(s) and when they love bomb us, we finally feel accepted, worthy, loved, cared for. BULLSHIT! It´s FALSE. An illusion.
My husband indeed could be an Empath and if so, then definitely Carrier. 😀 Like me, he can´t find the right words to comfort, he immediately thinks about practical solutions for the problem. 😀 Explains why we hardly ever argue, but discuss the problem and look for practical solutions. 😀
“You are a beautiful, high value woman, Leela, well good enough for every good thing.”
Thank you very much, AV! You too! 🙂 *hug*
Leela, thank you for that good explanation of why we glom on to the narcissist’s BS. You hit that right on the head! And in a way I had not considered it before. That is very helpful.
Your marriage is one of the things that gives light at the end of the tunnel for others of us, newer in the process. I won’t call it hope, but something to look forward to, if we are so blessed at some point. But, much work to do between now and then!
Thank you and *hug* back! 🙂
Very cool that I could help you and other Emps! That´s awesome! Yay! I´m really happy to help (of course, I´m an Emp!) 🙂 🙂
I hated it every time! Reminded me on “Hannibal Lecter” (fictional cannibalistic serial killer, played by Anthony Hopkins in the movie “The Silence of the Lambs”).
Hello Leela, interesting that you mentioned Anthony Hopkins. Did you know he was diagnosed to have Aspergers late in life? (Google search).
No, didn´t know that. I only know that he is a really great actor!
Yes he is very good. I became aware of his diagnosis via a tv programme and I was not surprised. I also observed the characteristics of Aspergers within Chris Packham before I knew about his. Some are obvious, some not. It’s more noticeable in men (when they are finding it difficult in their surroundings etc).
I read a book of a math genius with Aspergers: Daniel Tammet. He wrote his biography. He´s awesome!
H.G. I’ve seen all those stares;During the devaluation stage it was mesmerizing. I told him he looked like Norman Bates ( a fictional character who played a psycho on t.v) I didn’t know then he was a psycho/Narc) I told him go find somebody else to play with, leave me the hell alone! Those eyes said I hate you ….Thanks for the insight of the eyes.Now I know!
I k ow that stare. It’s empty. But too show up with a smile on your face trying to remedy their “depression” they say they’re feeling only til the next day when it seems that depression has resolved. To go on the next day and they’re blank again. And you don’t want to rock the boat too much. You just want to try and “help” them. When you KNOW deep down in your heart there is something more off but you just don’t want to believe it. You want to trust that all their feelings are true. You know. Something is not right. And ultimately you are right about it. They have monkey branched and discarded you for another person with no means of explanation or any type of closure. They will tell you how guilty they feel yet no offer any apology for the pain inflicted. How horrible they feel because they, “still have feelings” for you. Do they even know they are narcissists?? HG…I need a session. I need to hear it from an expert narcissist. I loathe you yet I am seeking the truth about your kind as it is surely not in me or even comprehdable to treat people as such objects. People may talk shit however I am using you as a resource and I am grateful you are shamelessly allowing insight into the narcissistic mind. It’s a double edged sword sometimes to hear your words…yet…I’d rather hear it unabashed, unbiased, and the cold hard truth. You make me feel better about myself from knowing people like you.
You are welcome Dani, keep reading, you will succeed here.
Dani, I couldn’t scroll past without commenting on what you had written. I just wanted you to know that I understand how you are feeling and you aren’t alone here x
The stare saying I got you!!!!!
Yes, like ‘got’ their prey….
And there would be times when my ex would present themselves as the naive lamb.
That’s the ‘instinctual’ pity-play from your ex, CC.
Yes!
Once I realized that the only way to break free was by stop reacting and stop providing the ex with attention thats when they realized they cant get fuel by me anymore and I broke free.Now mind you this took me years to finally figure out in how to break this disgusting creature.It worked.Also,Hg education,videos and consultation helped me understand it all and I was able to clear this black cloud that was confusing my mind.Reducing my ET is what helped me observe properly on how to eliminate what the ex was feeding on.THATS WHEN I LET THE EX STARVE OF FUEL.
CC, thank you for sharing your experiences in relation to your ex and in learning all about narcissism using HG’s work.
Life is an experience.
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