Knowing the Psychopath : An Uncaring Perfect Predator
I adopt a brilliant disguise. I appear just like you. I pass myself off as being like you. You look on me and see the smile, the well-dressed man who tells the jokes which make you laugh time and time again. I fix my gaze on you, my laser-like, hyper focussed gaze which makes you feel special and wanted. The subjects I speak of, the places I revisit, the images I create with my mastery of words, all of this makes you feel like I am like you.
Yet for all that I show you, you have no idea that beneath this brilliant disguise slowly beats the ice cold heart of a ruthless, uncaring perfect predator.
I understand that there are five basic emotions – anger, happiness, disgust, fear and sadness.
I do not experience anger. I experience fury, yet I am able to maintain an ultra level of control over it so that even though it may churn beneath the surface, there is no alteration in my calm and poised exterior. I present the epitome of glacial calm.
I do not experience happiness. There is simply a void which must be filled with the edifying power of fuel and the extinguishing of ennui.
I experience disgust, yet often I ensure that you never recognise that this is what is flowing through my veins as I listen to the detail of your dull, dull existence. Your day to day activities of such little consequence that I am disgusted by your lack of consequence. Yet, unless I choose to unleash that disgust, I maintain a mask of pleasantry as you flap your gums filling my ears with your tedium. Instead, I must amuse my mind with a dozen ways I would turn your monotonous dullness into scream of terror. I am sustained by the images that flicker through my mind as I calculate your fate by my skilled hands.
I am without fear. It is a stranger in these lands.
I know not sadness. It is for the weak. Such is its absence that I will not even seek to portray its presence unless in extremis and only then because I deem that it is the means to achieve that end.
You look on me and think I am like you. Yet we are of such different world. Within me awaits the precision-driven psychopath that I keep entertained with the playing of games, the accumulation of appliances, the creation of empires, the destruction of dynasties, urgent sex and certain other distractions. This amusement is important, for if I was not so amused, the outcome would be so different for those who would encounter me. The bodies would accumulate.
Stripped of what you feel, I look on the world and often feel nothing. There are times where I feel something – the rage, the hatred, the disgust, the antipathy and the power, but there are sustained periods of time where all there is, is the emptiness. Unlike the pure narcissist who must fight against this emptiness, I am able to embrace it. I am able to allow that emptiness to bleed into the world around me. I see there are times when those proximate to me experience the presence of that emptiness also. I see the shift in their countenance. The nervous flicker of their glance towards me, a sudden shift as if the temperature in the room has dropped by many degrees, a shudder which washes over them. I see then that they have felt what I am although they invariably have no idea what it signifies. Instead, they clamour for the familiarity which I am able to impose through the appearance of similarity.
There are those that think that emotion is irrelevant for my kind. That is true of my psychopathy, its relevance is applicable to my narcissism and its provision of fuel. Strip that from me and emotion would be entirely meaningless to me. I watch the world. Evaluating, assessing, calculating and selecting those who will fall prey to me. All must be controlled, but there are those who I select to entertain me. Those who must be the subjects of my game playing, those who must be drawn into my world, pull downwards into the dark depths of my ocean of malice. I am unmatched in my ability to detect those victims. I see YOU. Those who will provide me with greatest level of gratification stand out to me in the manner of their gait, their stance, the language they use and as my cold, cold gaze falls upon them, I know that it is play time.
With that my nostrils flare, I scent my prey and galvanise myself into action ready to make my way towards you and bring you into my world. Effective, calculating and hyper-focussed, all else about the world falls away as I zero in on you. My mind selects the approach, the words I shall use, I have learned the tones to apply, I have fashioned the signals to send you so that I become of your world so that I can take you into my world and play with you.
I care not for you. You are to become mine and I shall possess you, ready to distract and chase away the ever present boredom. I feel that first flicker of anticipation as the game begins as you turn and already my crystal blue stare and welcoming smile have caused you to notice me and await my attendance on you. Already you are caught in my tractor beam and savour the lifting of the ennui as I prepare to feast on you.
1,122 thoughts on “Knowing the Psychopath : An Uncaring Perfect Predator”
Dear Mr Tudor,
Just when you think it’s safe to go back in the water 🐋
Dalai Lama, kissing a boy on the lips and then asks him to “suck my tongue “ 😱
Now let’s hear everyone come to his defence
No wonder I don’t trust people !
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
And some people think Catholics have the only creeps.
I should’ve expanded “Now let’s hear everyone come to his defence” was in relation to the Dalai and his entourage, cos they always try to backtrack then worm their way out. Dementia and playfulness are not acceptable excuses on this highly inappropriate little scenario.
Speaking of dementia, now for a laugh…..
just saw a video of Joe Biden getting off the plane with his wife, waving to the cameras. greeting the military without saluting them, turned around looking rather lost, then heads straight back to get on the plane 🤣
Don’t be surprised if we see a new female predator running for Presidency haha
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
So many creeps in power…alas, the Non-narcy among us don’t want to do it.
Bubbles, I haven’t calmed down since I saw that video. He comes back to me insistently. Rage and frustration seethe inside of me. At times like this, I hate this world and I hate people. Although, of course, I am generalizing – I meet the good in people too often to marginalize it so recklessly.
This documented incident is so disgusting, that vomit spills out of me and splashes to the sides. Someone, who by age and function, should represent WISDOM and PURITY, showed the most disgusting fucking bottom of the human level. An old man versus a young, trusting boy. Moral decay and fall.
I don’t know, if people realize the seriousness of this event. I think, that the reluctance of youth to have PHYSICAL contact with old age is natural – and this is already terrible (1). Forced touch by environmental pressure (2). The mouth is the most intimate part of the human body. This old corpse has defiled it! (3).
I once wrote here on the blog, that after being raped several times, I had to talk to my abuser (then for me he was an old man with a disgusting 40-45 year old body) for about 2 hours to save my life. Finally, when he had his hand on the doorknob leading to my freedom, when I didn’t know if he would open it or kill me, he kissed me on the mouth. I stayed still, didn’t turn my head. I was like a statue with my eyes open. I was only focused on whether he was going to press the doorknob or he pull me back inside. After 30 years from this event, I can summarize, that everything that was done to my body at that time has gone into “forgetfulness” (no pain), I don’t remember this man anymore. But that kiss and his goodbye words still burn me like hell.
I understand perfectly well, why a prostitute can give her body, but she doesn’t want kisses.
There is another disgusting thing in this video with the Dalai Lama. It is amused, totally stupid, dull and primitive, or maybe salacious, laughter of the witnesses of this event (4).
The explanation, that these are “innocent jokes” is a fucking oddity! (5) An insult to this boy, his family and followers. It’s not an excuse – it’s another slap in the face with a cheeky smile.
Sorry, I had to let it out. I know it’s too harsh, but my intestines are twisting.
I feel so sorry for that boy 🙁
I could feel your rage and frustration thru your comment and I too find it quite incomprehensible in this day of woke, gender diversity, paedophilia and the like.
The elders sitting next to him laughing are just as guilty in my book. Not funny at all. (I have been known to interject if I’ve seen boys being bullied and asked them if they need help and if they are ok. I would not hesitate to rescue a fish as well, no matter the consequences. That’s my empath warrior showing haha )
He will get off I’m sure because of who he is and what he represents, however, consensus from the masses think otherwise. The comments are scathing.
Now if it were someone from the Catholic Church, as Viol mentioned, they would be sent into exile. Out of site out of mind. I’m sure that poor innocent child will never forget the moment.
I am so saddened by your horrendous story Joa and what you endured, it certainly does not represent who you are nor make you a bad person. You are a heroine in my eyes.
I can recall many a male trying to stick his tongue in my mouth giving hello and goodbye kisses on the cheek…..funny how it happens from the people you least expect.
You’re not alone Joa, at times I hate this world and where we’re heading and the people in it. There’s are stirring of real uneasiness and it certainly doesn’t feel good.
I have lost respect for the Dalai Lama and I’m sure many others have as well. His legacy is now tainted with unforgettable awful images and have definitely left a bad taste in one’s mouth 👅
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Dear Bubbles, I’m so glad you and many others lost respect for him. Indeed his facade seemed perfect to the western world, except it’s not! There is so much dirt behind it, just wait and see. We live in times of exposure of what we believed a safe and fluffy reality. I hope more of them will make the same mistakes as D.L. and lose publicly their influential status.
People who knew and met him, told „he regards everything that comes out of him as holy, so that he prefers to bath in his own holy water, instead of normal water, which he despises“ and if you meet him, you can smell this holiness quite clear.
I never met him, but I witnessed once a similar guru behavior, where the guru let his coterie wash his disgusting, dirty feet in milk and the milk was regarded holy afterwards and the peasants, followers, visitors of this seminar were given to drink it, and most did without questioning! After that he collected money from the holy-drunks for the good cause of helping the starving children in India. Yeah right! WTF your holiness.
This gurus must think to themselves “this sheep are so dumb, no wonder they need my leader-sheep”. People need to wake up to how low they fall and what they are ready to take on themselves and excuse or even protect sick behavior. Well it’s their own decision..can’t force them. Can show and point out if the situation and the level of intelligence allows it and then leave.
👣🥛👣……..🤮 ….that’s just utterly gross!!!
Mr Tudor’s excellent prompt video …..Dalai Lama W.T.F. ….was very much needed and the comments indicate the majority feel the same overall abhorrent disgust.
Whether he’s a narc or not, it does not excuse his “behaviour”. I understand cultural customs and sticking out one’s tongue is a form of greeting along with rubbing noses etc …however, I’ve never heard of a custom that’s say “suck my tongue” upon greeting.
If the old bugga has the onset of dementia, then why haven’t his doctors confirmed this, if so, he should bloody retire! My Catholic girlfriend defended him saying he’s obviously got dementia and felt sorry for him.
I mean, his life’s not that bad, he could spend his days counting his $150mil. What the hell were his coterie doing sitting on their arses and laughing their holy heads off ? They should’ve interjected immediately when they saw the red flags.
Playful ? He clearly appeared to know what he was doing. He made a massive impropriety in today’s standards. Public figures can’t afford to make mistakes, they know the risks involved and must be squeaky clean at all costs. When you start showing signs, retire from the limelight. Oh yes, some people just can’t haha
With all that holy bath water he uses, he certainly missed a few spots.
Watch nothing happen as all will be swept under the mat. Is it just me or has it gone quiet all of a sudden ? Hehe
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Ps I know China wants Tibet back and perhaps this is a manipulation strategy to discredit him and reclaim …..but that’s another story. 🤦♀️
Dear Mr Tudor,
Other “predators” coming into play in a current FB post n reel include those who abused and exploited Justin Bieber when he was a very young rising star (the likes of these so called influential adults eg Jenny McCarthy, Katy Perry, Ellen DeGeneres your nemesis James Corden and David Letterman just to name a few). Absolutely sickening 🤮
No wonder he’s ended up with so many issues. I feel sorry for the poor bugga.
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Sorry, it should’ve said…. him and those around him come to his defence 🤮
Bubbles, that was shocking and disgusting. No one can defend that.
Unfortunately, there’s a case of defence for everyone. The DL is also the political leader of Tibet, so there’s a lot at stake here.
I did watch the full incident and then I saw a video of a monk defending the DL on this “tongue” incidence. As far as I could interpret in his defence (it was so confusing, very wordy plus he was extremely hard to understand). He basically implied that those of us that saw negativity in that incident instead of beauty are all unintelligent little children that need to focus and learn the overall big picture. We are not worldly enough, apparently.
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Dear Mr Tudor,
I came across a reel on FB about this very upset and teary female describing her biology lecture she attended when she was 16 years old. The lecturer was a very caring loving kind and compassionate teacher btw, anyhoo, she walks into the room and all the desks are in a circle. In the middle there’s a table with a goldfish in a fishbowl.
So, the lecturer walks in all militant like and sternly says “sit down, shut up, don’t speak, don’t move, if you do you, you will automatically fail the class”. So he then takes the goldfish out of the bowl and places it on the table and then proceeds to walk out of the room and shuts the door. After 2 1/2 minutes silence, a very stressed female goes over to grab the goldfish and places it back in the bowl. Straight away, the lecturer walks back in, looks at everyone and says “look at what the world has done to you, you have betrayed yourselves, for what ? “
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
HG’s knowledge is as deep as the ocean itself.
They say that “It takes one to know one”
HG knows how and why “they” think the way “they” do
This makes the information he provides priceless.
I love reading this blog, but enjoy the audio information the best. I find HG’s voice to be calming. It is amazing how the information just “clicks”.
Thanks again HG
And Happy Easter everyone on this blog.
Tales of the Unexpected story ‘Genesis’ was rather interesting, whether fictional or not, about Hitler’s parents.
Asp Emp – I am going to check out that episode.
WhoCares, I watched some of the re-runs that aired last year, the above episode was one of them. The endings tend to give an unexpected ending 🙂
There’s a YT channel that has some of those episodes…my “Watch Later” list getting very unwieldy!!
Good thing HG’s videos are mostly just audio (multi-tasking!).
Omg, wasn’t expecting that ending! won’t spoiler it, but Roald Dahl🏆
Thank you for sharing this one Aspi!
Jordyguin, yes, it was very well done, glad you watched it 🙂
Aspi, this episode is a genius! It took Roald Dahl only 25min to explain how Hitlers may be created. A Patrinarc (genes) and a „paralyzed“ Empath or perhaps a CoD + LOCE and voila🎂 Who is to blame? He was made, just as his parents were made. It’s a vicious spin from generation to generation. He turned out with a greater energetic capacity and efficiency (school) compared to his Patrinarc..
I would love to know how Roald Dahl viewed him actually and what was his intention with this episode. It definitely gives a different understanding of “why? – that’s why!”
Now we can make some conclusion based on the KTN, but before that? Dahl must have known a lot of things!!
Jordyguin, Roald Dahl was a genius, obviously very well-read, thought outside the box, looked at things / the world differently and wrote it all down, not caring what other people thought if they were ‘offended’, chuffed when people loved his writings. He wanted people to ‘see’ into how he saw the world through his mind, the creativity, the possibility of using the mind to ‘paint’ images of how he may have ‘viewed’ some people (grinning). Think of Douglas Adams, Stephen King, Guy de Maupassant and their own creations (writings). Some of these people wrote through their ’emotions’ and mental states indirectly by redirecting how they ‘felt’ onto paper. Without artists like these, people would not necessarily ‘learn’ to use their minds to ‘create’ their own “art”, whether dark, or, light.
Yes, I think Roald understood people and their behaviours, through his own experiences and observations. He described human behaviours extremely well. I do have one of his books and I intend to re-read it.
I think, maybe, Dahl appreciated the creativity of intelligent people but not the inhumane activities against people, or the environment. That is just an opinion.
Haven’t seen that but I used to love Tales of the Unexpected on the rare occasion I was allowed to stay up late to watch it! I can still remember the intro and the dancing woman silhouetted. It scared me that programme! Mind you all sorts scared me as a kid.
1 comment and 1 question :
1. Just want to add that the very first Columbo episodes are great psychopath examples. Later, it gets confused. Also the reality TV series “most evil” I think is helpful in understanding differences.
I was wondering recently – so most psychopaths and I guess sociopaths are what they are since birth. But do you believe that there are some who became that way through extreme experiences in very early childhood?
Like… I think most mental issues are more a trauma, incl pipolar, etc.
But esp with sociopaths I wondered if a trauma can’t have disabled certain parts of the brain… or conscience
I see in myself that I had some extreme reactions to very painful experiences.
I had read lengthy reports, 1st person, of people who had been programmed as children as sleepers, etc.,, and in that context, somehow, I came across accounts of how powerful families / clans, program their children and make them desensitised on purpose.
Those powerful groups who are said to rule quite a bit of our world.
Would you differentiate between people who have no regard for others because of extreme experiences and conditioning and those who were born like that?
Is, it important?
I have met a, few disturbed personalities who clearly hadn’t been able to cope with their upbringing and didn’t set out to harm anyone, they just did, because their mind was truly fucked up..
Very good. I hate it when that all gets mixed up, esp in movies, too.
Or when people don’t understand why I don’t want to attend certain events when certain people are present.
I have watched the series Dahmer and thought for a momentiit was another false portrayal of a psychopath, but they did actually really well, as he wasn’t a psychopath at all. They did also very well regarding his awareness. Also about genetic / environment. Great portrayal of his narcissistic mother.
I still think that my ex narc is a narcopath, but fortunately, that’s not relevant anymore.
Needless to say that I have met my share of sociopaths, but more often antisocial personality types.
I seem to attract more narcs and psychopaths though.
Might have to do with my own reaction to sociopathic behavior, I am not conditioned for that.
I’m not a numbers person, at all. For some reason though when it comes to personality disorders, I’m more interested in stats and science than usual.
HG estimates roughly 17% of the population are narcissists.
The quoted figure (not HG) for psychopaths is anywhere between 1 and 3%. Within that 1-3% psychopath population, only 10% of those are said to be violent / aggressive and within that 10% violent aggressive group only 1% are said to be highly antisocial, violent and aggressive. The ‘above the snow line’ psychopath.
Given the figures, and considering the fact that those diagnosed with BPD are actually narcissists or misdiagnosed PTSD sufferers, I can’t help but wonder, how many people diagnosed as psychopaths are actually narcissists manifesting malign behaviours? If a serial killer is threatening and torturing a victim, would that not be fuel? Which out of the two personalities – narcissist and psychopath – needs fuel?
If the term narcissist is thrown around to describe someone who is actually normal but behaving like an arsehole, how many people are viewed as being psychopaths when they actually are nothing of the sort?
Hitler for example. Psychopath, has to be. He fits the societal view of evil. Therefore evil Hitler was definitely a psychopath. Was he though? Or was he a highly paranoid narcissist? No idea, but you see my thinking here.
How many people in prisons were later diagnosed as psychopaths? Who diagnosed them? Were they diagnosed using the PCLR or an alternative? Was the person administering the PCLR trained to administer and interpret the test? I’m not being funny but I had to take a week’s residential training course just to administer a bog standard business personality test! I’m expected to believe that all those administering PCLR tests are qualified to do so? How many psychologists don’t spot narcissism? Are they just really really good at spotting psychopathy then?
Maybe I’m just cynical, but it would be no surprise to me if we find that a significant percentage of those diagnosed as psychopaths have actually been wrongly diagnosed and the personalities we often believe to be psychopaths are actually narcissists.
How effective is the PCLR at determining psychopathy? It might demonstrate antisocial traits but does it prove psychopathy? Robert Hare wanted psychopathy do be included separately in the most recent version of the DSM. Guess what he wanted to call it. Hare’s Disorder. Hahaha! True that.
Trust no one. 😂
Bear in mind torturing a victim is also entertaining, thus alleviating the boredom.
True, and boredom seems to be the overarching experience of the psychopath. Would you describe the psychopath’s desire to alleviate boredom as being as intense as a narcissist’s need for fuel though?
If both are torturing a victim, which one gets a greater thrill / feels more powerful? Does a psychopath even seek power over people other than to help achieve a broader objective?
My suggestion isn’t that a psychopath can’t be a serial killer. It’s that a serial killer is more likely to be a narcissist.
As intense, yes, as often, no.
The feeling of power is greater for the narcissist because of how this is linked to fuel. Yes, because being able to assert power over somebody is part of addressing the issue of boredom.
Thank you for your response and elaboration. That was the way I was thinking about it. I’m underestimating the boredom aspect. I need to think about that some more.
I was walking the dog last night, listening to your latest ‘ in the mind of’ video. As I was walking and listening I was thinking about various things, I caught myself doing it and realised that other than when concentrating on a task my mind is filled with people. I counted thoughts on 6 different people just during that one walk. What they’ve told me, what they are doing, what they are worried about. I realised that if I didn’t think about people, predominately those I care about but sometimes in more ‘world’ or general terms, my mind would be more empty in between tasks. There would be my own inner voice and little else. It made me wonder if this is the emptiness, or, the cause of the emptiness. Essentially the emptiness being an absence, of emotional empathy for people. Choose a subject and I’ll think about the subject in terms of people, it’s impact on people, or people involved. Both narcissist and psychopath interact and when the interaction is over that’s it, unless prompted.
For me, and I suspect for other empaths, those people thoughts are always running like background music unless I’m extremely focussed on a more intellectual type of task. So there is no emptiness, and my boredom is more of a surface, lack of meaningful task kind of boredom.
I need to think about the boredom more to get a better understanding about how it would feel if all those people left my mind. Your boredom is not similar to my boredom.
More to consider.
@HG and TS,
I’m following your trail of thought and I believe I know what you mean here. My mind is always thinking of people in my life, what they’re going through, how things are affecting them in their life, how I feel for them and what they’re going through, trying to come up with a solution for them…and then I go to the next person, or back and forth between the two or more people in my head that day…my mind wanders from problem to problem and like you, TS, it doesn’t stop unless I have a more pressing mental task I’m doing, otherwise I think on this kind of stuff, while doing lawn work or the like.
I also think you’re on to something about narcissism being more prominent in serial killers than psychopathy. My brother was a psychopath, but he wasn’t going around hitting people and bragging about how hitting them gave him sexual excitement. No, LMRSOMATIC did that and said that he got hard from hitting people, especially his stepkids. He told me once, “I got you here, so I could kill you” and then he laughed at my expression of fear and pretended to feel bad about causing my fear…he was like, “Awwww, I’m sorry *laughs* I was kidding, I really scared you awwww, look at you, already to run *laughs* He didn’t know how close he came to getting a broken nose. I didn’t find it funny and he lost all chances of any alone time with me. I know he bragged about enjoying inflicting pain , giving corporal punishment to his stepkids, he called it that with a sadistic smile on his face. He was a sadistic narcissist. I’ll never forget any of the bragging he did , in regards to physical abuse…the feeling I got off of him was one of dark pleasure, dark, twisted enjoyment from another’s pain. He thought he was really dark, he prided himself on what he thought was dark about him, but yet his hands were sweaty and he got nervous in crowds. He feared exposure, I felt his fear, whenever he heard people were talking about him. I thought that was a ridiculous thing to be afraid of, what people thought of him. He even said to me, during our last phone conversation, “Don’t hate me, I don’t want you to hate me.” Why would he care? Xx
That’s an interesting example because in many ways I think your description of the behaviour shown by the LMR Somatic falls closer to how a lot of people (not on here) would imagine the psychopath.
“Don’t hate me. I don’t want you to hate me.” He definitely sounds Mid Range there. (I want you to tell me that you don’t hate me so this gives me fuel and signals you are under control, plus I’m a good person really.)
The psychopath could theoretically say similar but I imagine it would be worded differently. Less whiny. The motivation would be different, more ‘I’ll keep you on side because I need you to keep quiet about my dodgy business dealings.’ The objective being to keep you quiet and on side rather than to gain fuel from a response. So in this sense, control is necessary because it furthers a definite objective rather than asserting control to counter a threat to control. The psychopath knows that he couldn’t care less about what you think of him from an opinion perspective but he will care if it causes him a problem or presents an obstacle to him achieving an objective.
No emotional empathy is no emotional empathy but my feeling is that the psychopath would appear as far less emotional than the narcissist. Honestly though, I’ve never met a psychopath in person. I’ve communicated with two and there’s a definite communication style, I just can’t quite describe exactly what it is! It isn’t lack of humour, it isn’t necessarily less descriptive, it’s kind of a little more ‘clipped’, and far more concise!
When I communicate I think I automatically consider how the information will be interpreted. I want to be understood first and foremost but I also care about how a comment might impact the reader / listener. So my communication includes my preemptive response to an imagined future response from the reader / listener if that makes sense? I could make the same statement to two different people but the wording of the statement would be slightly different for each. I think that’s part of it. For the psychopath the statement is the statement. Maybe it’s a difference in ‘tone’ that I notice, not sure but it’s something!
I have to jump in for a minute. Mr. Tudor has said on several occasions that narcissists don’t kill. If they kill, they lose their fuel source and the narcissism will stop the narcissist before that happens. Sometimes there may be a glitch and they go too far but more often they won’t kill. So how can a serial killer more likely be a narcissist? I can get on board with narcissistic sociopath or narcissistic psychopath but not a pure narcissist. Unless I misunderstood.
Am I incorrect in my thinking?
I haven’t stated that a narcissist will not kill, I have stated it is unusual for it to happen. See “Why Does the Narcissist Want You Dead”.
Thank you for your response. I apologize for my misstatement.
I have follow up questions. Since it’s unusual for a narcissist to kill, would you also say that its unusual for a pure narcissist to be a serial killer? Would a serial killer more likely be a narcissistic sociopath or narcissistic psychopath?
A serial killer is most likely to be diagnosed with ASPD, although those with NPD and paranoid schizophrenia may also be serial killers.
Oh wow, I hadn’t considered other comorbidities like paranoid schizophrenia. Once again you’ve enlightened me. Thank you.
For me if I imagine an individual selecting targets relatively randomly (not directly associated with the killer) and killing repeatedly as a serial killer does, I associate it more with an intense desire to control the victim (any victim) and a feeling of power generated from the act of killing in close quarters. The ‘buzz’ from killing feels as if it would be generated from the fuel and control rather than through boredom or need for entertainment. That was my thinking there. However, post a comment from HG I think I am underestimating the intensity of the boredom experienced by a psychopath and the lengths he might go to to alleviate it.
Fortunately serial killers are incredibly rare. So if most are psychopaths they aren’t representative of the majority of psychopaths, similar with narcissists.
To me, killing repeatedly and randomly, would relieve the boredom of the psychopath. I don’t know if its about fuel. Since the victim would be a random person, at best they would be a tertiary source. So even if they got fuel from watching them squirm and hearing them cry for mercy, it wouldn’t be very potent fuel since they’re only a tertiary source. A narcissist has a greater need for fuel then to fill the boredom. They need their fuel matrixes to reach far and wide so they can continue to gather fuel. They may torture a victim and enjoy the fuel they get from them begging for mercy, but they probably wouldn’t go through with killing them because that would cut off their fuel supply.
As I’m writing this, I’m thinking both scenarios are horrific.
Hi Leigh, I think you’re onto something here. Pure psychopaths don’t need fuel but they get bored, killing, watching a person or am animal die, due to what they’ve done would possibly alleviate boredom, be interesting to them. And it wouldn’t matter who it was, that’s moot for them, possibly.
Hi AV, I remember Mr. Tudor talking about the boredom in one of his interviews. He was explaining how they alleviate the boredom. He said something along the lines of, I wonder what these animals bones would sound like when they’re breaking? Then he said, oh, that’s what they sound like. I took that as, not only did the act of breaking the bones alleviated the boredom but also understanding what happens from that action, alleviated the boredom as well.
Leigh, yes! Or anticipating watching the IPPS scream! When I read that somewhere, a long time ago, I thought, that is such, to me, an odd thing to think. At the time I thought it was from the narcissist side but maybe it was the psychopathy showing?
Yes, I see what you mean about low potency fuel from a tertiary source but there would be a lot of it at high frequency and in close proximity. These people are so messed up that I would question if sometimes they fantasise the victim is actually someone else, mother, ex girlfriend etc. So I’m not even sure in those circumstances, where a victim would sit in terms of tertiary through ‘imagined’ primary. I don’t know how long someone would need to be held captive for them to move from tertiary to secondary either. Often they aren’t captive for long, so I can’t see them moving too far up the ranks, but it’s such an unusual and extreme situation, I’m not sure whether the usual framework would apply. Maybe it would, maybe it’s shocking and unusual to us but not to them.
After I wrote my comment I wondered if quantity would offset potency. You also make a valid point that maybe because of their delusion the victims are considered a primary source or a CANIPSS.
Serial killers are a bunch of sick bastards, so who knows what the heck they’re thinking.
I agree, in many ways ‘sick bastard’ is really the only classification needed!
I myself found the “most evil” series really helpful in understanding differences.
And I think HG hasn’t stated many times why it wouldn’t be of worth to kill anyone. Most narcissist killers, I believe, are known to have killed friends and family,… not walking around as serial killers of strangers.
I might be wrong.
My ex is malign, but he wouldn’t kill anyone (I think), as there is nothing in it for him. Too much hassle.
I think narcissist killers were more than once trapped by their narcissism, they wanted to brag about it. Sorry, just random thoughts.
Never trust any statistics you haven’t faked yourself….
I read psychopaths feel a pressure lifting versus happiness. So perhaps relieving boredom is a relief of sorts? Funny story: I once went to the museum of death in Hollywood on Halloween. I had no idea it was mainly a serial killer collection or killer collection with real life letters from serial killers, photos and real material items from death scenes. I felt sick and literally ran through the museum to get out jostling the crowd. The manager or owner opened the exit door and found me outside sitting on a bench and he asked me “ Did you enjoy yourself?” Ha ha
I read about Hitler that he was veeery different to his inner circles, compared to what he portrait to the public. He was described as extremely magnetic, quiet, calm. There are aspects to his personality, interests and what he did in all kind of fields and the people he gathered around himself, which make him stand out. I think he calculated every move, every appearance, every recording of himself and every encounter, very fluently. Also to direct and to keep let’s say even one Josef Mengele – given his school/cadre in The Weighty 80 – under control, it must take a higher echelon Greater narcissistic psychopath, I would think. And Hitler had to control, lead and impress a whole bunch of them (plus the many allies). I don’t believe he shot himself, either. As a psychopath with his calculating ability, he must have seen the outcome and prepared for it. I think, his portrayal nowadays as sort of a psychotic loose canon or stupor is understandable, but is not accurate. I think the tantrums were part of the facade and a weapon, and the fury, but nothing went to waste.
Absolutely, Hitler had brutal characters in key positions and it does suggest that he had to be the baddest badass to keep control. Someone suggested I look at Hitler’s relationship with his mother when examining what Hitler was. I’m led to believe that this relationship was extremely close, genuine, but I admit I haven’t looked at it. Obviously the relationship could be ‘reportedly’ loving without actually being loving, so how much weight there was to the comment I’m not sure. It’s almost impossible to look at Hitler objectively too given what he was responsible for. I’d struggle to get past that.
Psychopaths will commit suicide if it is the most logical option. They won’t do it out of fear, distress or depression though as those factors are outside of their realm of experience. So if Hitler was a psychopath and he believed he would be captured and killed or captured and incarcerated he might see suicide as the most palatable and logical alternative.
I think it is terrible and a sign of our society, in that Hitler is one of the most famous and talked about people in human history.
Not someone who found a cure for a disease or some other wonderful positive discovery!
Awful… human fascination with darkness. It is sad indeed.
I see what you mean, it would be nicer if we held up the heroes rather than re examined the tyrants.
I come at it from a different angle though. I don’t think Hitler and what he did should ever be forgotten, because if it is forgotten then similar on a similar scale could happen again. By understanding what happened, what he was, what motivated him, by being shocked and disgusted and finding agreement in the shock and disgust there is hope perhaps for a better future. Was the holocaust down to just one man, was it a grand design from the start or did things evolve into genocide? Did the movement get away from him? If so, who was involved, why did they become involved and at what point might it have been prevented? That might be a naive statement, given what still occurs in parts of today’s world. Humankind never seems to learn, but I do have a need to understand the dark because it doesn’t seem to be going away.
Hitler is a simple example to use as a representation of evil. He’s indefensible, but in his own mind he was right to do what he did. I think there is value in understanding the mindset of someone like that. It isn’t comfortable, but remaining naive can’t ever lead to change.
It makes me wonder about AI and the Singularity. I can’t see how that can be avoided. It’ll be a race like any arms race because we won’t recognise a potential common enemy. Two schools of thought there, machines will end up enslaving us, or AI would recognise the predatory nature of human beings, see the futility of it and save us from ourselves. I’m not hopeful, difficult to teach a machine emotional empathy!
I also read that allegedly he was masochistic in the bedroom and liked being peed on and all kinds of freaky shit
“why are you gay?” my Fuhrer
Ava, interesting re your view on Dahmer’s mother. I had the father down as an N and the mother I could be convinced either way. Either the victim of an N husband and son or an N. I couldn’t make up my mind based solely on the series.
Alexissmith, your comment is so interesting to me, and shows how far I have to go. I had not even considered the dad for any issues, but the mom’s behavior was so bizarre, she stood out to me. Didn’t even consider if her behavior was a reaction to her husband and or son. Thank you for bringing this to my attention, we need to look at all parties through the narc glasses, and not assume or dismiss anything.
It was a shame we didn’t get to enough of the mother in the series AV. I would most certainly have been interested in learning more about her. Not interested enough to google and find out hahaha Thoroughly enjoyed the series though. Very well done. At first I thought they dragged it out a bit too long, but once I settled into it, it was fascinating to have more insight into both the serial killer, victims and families than many other series provide. I loved the neighbour who just kept calling the police. Absolutely shocking though how they failed to listen, makes you realise how you really have to not give up, but need that evidence to support what you’re saying when dealing with any N.
But yes with regards to the mother, she could certainly fit with HGs analysis of borderlines, either an empath caught up in the quagmire of all things N, or a mid-range narc herself.
Alexissmith, I agree with your synopsis entirely. I watched it with my son and we had to take it in small bits, quite overwhelming even that way. But it was also very fascinating.
He was diagnosed with BPD, among other things.
I found that interesting considering HG’s thinking on BPD.
Dear Mr Tudor,
Drats, bugga bum Paltrow won
What a bloody futile waste of time and resources 🥱
I didn’t like either of them
oh yes back to Harry
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
You’ve ignited my truthseeker trait. If I may, I have some more questions.
You’ve said that a psychopath does not experience fear? Does the sociopath experience fear?
With regards to awareness, do all pure psychopaths & narcissistic psychopaths have awareness of their psychopathy? Does the sociopath have awareness of their sociopathy?
Yes of their behaviour but they may not always know what it is.
Yes of their behaviour but they may not always know what it is.
Thank you for your response, Mr. Tudor.
Let any fear be not of change, but of never changing. There should be no fear greater (for anyone) than handing over more of the limited years of one’s life to the abuse and control of others and having only known that before you leave this earth. There is so much more.
Thank you for your advice,seriously I appreciate it. I think I’ve told you before that I admire your logical thinking. I hope to get so logical one day and not feel like such an emotional basket case. I hate that my emotions get so strong for me. The anxiety alone is almost paralyzing and that makes leaving all the harder for me. It’s not like I don’t want to leave, I do, I’m just fighting this anxiety of the future. I’ve been with MLSOMATIC since 2000 and got married in 2004, it’s a long time to be with someone and put up with alcoholism from him for 16 years, and he’s now talking about going back to drinking. I can’t go through it all again, I just can’t. I won’t, I’m not going to do Round 2.
I wanted HG, NarcAngel, Leigh, AspEmp, WhoCares, WiserNow, Joa, JB, AV and anyone else I forgot…to know I’m contacting the EAP program at work for help getting out of a bad situation, because I’m just not able to deal with the stress of getting out alone. I feel overwhelmed and an emotional mess. Ill let everyone know more, as I learn more. I’m scared to death, but going forward anyway. Xx
I think reaching out to your EAP (Employee Assistance Program) is a great idea. They have mental health professionals and legal counsel that can help you.
You’re going to be ok Rebecca. You’re stronger than you think! You’ve got this!
Thank you Leigh,
I’ve been stressing entirely too much about my decision because I want to succeed and not fail. Legal Aid is a great source to have and use. I feel more confident I can do this. Xx
When you have these moments of worry, stress or self doubt, ask yourself, “Is this my ET? Am I thinking logically?” When I ask myself those questions, I know the answer. Its often our ET conning us.
Stay strong! You absolutely can do this!
I’m a worry wart during times of stress and I overthink, over analyze and beat it into the ground. I’m worse than a dog with a bone, dropping it or letting it go doesn’t come across my mind, until my best friend slaps some sense into me….not literally, though I’m sure she’s thought about it. 😂 I need it, otherwise I’d drive myself nuts, chewing, chewing and chewing over it. Thanks for your confidence in me. I know I’ll feel better about me, when I get gone. GOSO, I should get the shirt 😂 xx
Thanks, I understand what you’re saying and thanks for your advice. Hopefully I’ll be having a new beginning and a new future. Xx
I’m sorry if this is a duplicate. I seem to have lost my message. It up and vanished like a fart in the wind, lol. Just like Andy Dufresne from Shawshank Redemption.
I have to chuckle because I’ve been told I beat a dead horse on several occasions. I think, overthink & then overthink some more, lol.
I have a wonderful empathic friend who has helped in more ways than I can count. I’m very grateful for her. She’s patient, supportive & understanding. She’ll also give it to me straight when I need it.
I’m glad to hear that you have someone in your life like that as well.
When you finally decide to leave – it’s easy and fast.
It is more difficult later – to maintain the status of independence. This is not easy. You definitely have to like solitude – you will face it many times, even if you have 100 friends.
Everything has its pluses and minuses.
I know you were talking to Rebecca but I just wanted to tell you that you really remind me of my empathic friend. There’s no judgement. She just lays it out for me. She wanted to prepare me so she told me the same thing. There will be a lot of alone time.
The ironic thing is for almost my whole relationship, I’ve been alone. That’s part of the problem for me. I have to take care of things like I’m a single mom but yet I’m married. I’ve had many people say to me, “Is your husband real? He’s never around. I never see him.” And they’re not kidding.
I’ll find things to occupy my time. I want to go back to school. I love to learn. But a little solitude, actually sounds peaceful.
Worry isn’t pleasant at all. I find what helps me is imagining the worse case scenario of a possible outcome, then think through how I’d cope with that. Personally I then find you can deal with whatever the outcome is.
Agree with you there. Some people might say that’s quite a pessimistic approach but I don’t think so.
I remember my first go on a jet ski. I’d been on the back and loved it, but I felt very unstable on my own. Every bounce felt like I would be thrown off it. I wasn’t having a good time. My worse case was being thrown off, I worried the safety wristband wouldn’t stop the engine. I took the screw it approach in the end, put my foot down, full pelt and turned hard. Threw myself off, engine stopped and I got back on. Had a fab time after that, no fear. 😂
Love your jet ski story TS! Sounds like lots of fun!!
I can see why some people would see that as pessimistic but it certainly doesn’t feel that way to me at all. It always helps me get back on track with lightening speed from almost all situations and maintain my positivity even if it does appear pessimistic from someone else’s perspective. Of course I would always do anything to prevent worse case but if you have in the back of your mind how you’d deal with that then you’re always prepared without getting stuck in that fight or flight mode.
Yep totally. I’m inclined to be more pessimistic if I don’t have the worst case plan. I’m terrible with uncertainty in general, the plan makes me feel more capable, more prepared. Xx
😂 The same thing happened to me yesterday and I had to rewrite my whole comment. 😂 “Fart in the wind” 😂 Poof 😂 OH, yes…my mother would say that to me, too that I could beat a dead horse and I drive her nuts. My husband used to tell me, I drove him to drink…No, don’t blame your drinking on me, that’s your own shit there….I would tell him. I’ve lived with both those two assholes, trying to tear me down and I retaliated with my sarcastic mouth. Leigh, Do you find that the comebacks come out of you, without hesitations?? Mine are almost automatic and it doesn’t matter, who’s saying them to me. I just respond with defensive comebacks. I’ve even gotten sharky back to supervisors and then they realize what they said and how they said it to me, and some have even apologized to me. I’d apologized regardless,if they did or not. I would say, I’m sorry, my mouth sometimes runs ahead of my brain. OOps 😂 xx
LOL! This mouth of mine got me into sooooooooo much trouble when I was younger. I would have mini eruptions all the time. I remember one time yelling at my boss in the cafeteria. I don’t remember what it was about but I thought for sure I was gonna get fired. Luckily, I didn’t. But when I think about it now, he was probably a narc and I fueled him. He would provoke me all the time. My current boss will do the same.
TS said something yesterday about using sarcasm too. I’m not sarcastic. I just explode. When I lived with my mother, after my father left, I would often put holes in the doors. They were the cheap doors that were hollow but every single door had at least one hole in it. I would also tell her to go eff herself. I didn’t use sarcasm, it was pure aggression. She probably got off on it.
Getting older, learning about narcissism & my Geyser has made me more aware and I erupt a lot less now. Having this awareness has made me stop, think & then respond, rather than react. Now, that’s not always the case. Sometimes I still react but I’m making it a point to try to respond instead of react. Part of that is because I refuse to allow a narc to get to me like that. But also, people in general won’t take you seriously when you erupt or react. If you have a well thought out response, they’ll be more wiling to listen.
This comment got away from me, lol. Yes, my mouth would often run ahead of my brain too.
This reminds me when I stood up to a boss. You must be ready to quit. The first was when I was 19 and worked at a top night club in Philly. There were sexual fantasy nights where the pretty waitresses and bartenders and the handsome male waiters and bartenders wore next to nothing. I came as historic Aphrodite in full covering Greek gown and grapes. My boss was a coke addict who would grab staff and demand make up. One very busy night I was not wearing lipstick, he grabbed my arm and was going to take me to put on lipstick. I threw my cocktail tray filled with drinks on him and told him to go to rehab. Everyone there secretly applauded me. I was working on Philadelphia Magazine for peanuts at the time during the day so I had to get two other jobs to make rent that summer. I was 18. Much later in my 20s, I was asked to do something unethical as a lawyer. I filled up my boxes to leave. I got an apology and a partnership. The third time was in my 40s and my sexist old school boss who would remind me he was my boss, was stealing my clients and giving them to a man. He even told me through HR director that he thought women should wear pants and short shoes like men. I emailed back saying to him that I dressed for success and that if he liked I could ask the OC Woman’s Lawyer organism for a brief on his desire for a certain dress code. I also threatened to sue. The firm ( his own) men (most) and women alike supported me. And to this day, I am there after brokering a deal with man to pay for rent and staff ( good deal) as I started my own law firm. I probably help fund his retirement. He may not like me but he respects me. There comes a time when you draw a line. I find if you want respect, demand it. It’s your right!
How does secret applause work? Do people clap under the tablecloth, wait until they are outside and burst into rapturous applause with the same level of relief of holding in wind and expelling it in the safety of the bathroom or do you mean you envisaged everybody applauding you?
Re: secret applause
“wait until they are outside and burst into rapturous applause with the same level of relief of holding in wind and expelling it in the safety of the bathroom…”
Thank goodness I hadn’t just sipped coffee on that one…
I laughed out load at your question on silent applauding. I got a lot of shocked stares at work 😂 😂 xx
I’m response to your comment about you wondering if empaths have a self defense mechanism in place….yes, we do, it’s called our conditioning is our defense mechanism, when you learn to keep the narc “happy” then you receive less punishment, at least I realized it work like for me and my narc mother’s relationship/dynamic. It may not work for another narc, but it’s what I’ve come to figure out about myself and my interactions with my mother. Xx Hope that helps. Xx
I am both sarcastic mouth and my dad’s little dynamite, as he called me every time I would go off. 😂 There were a few times, when I broke things, like my dad’s moving dolly. My brother provoked me into snapping and instead of beating him, I slammed my dad’s dolly against a tree , repeatily until the dolly lost its wheels and I calmed down. My brother, back then, was able to push my snap buttons and he would just enjoy the explosions. I have Geyser too and I do have better control of my temper now. I think mainly because the two people, my brother and mother, who caused me to snap so much, aren’t alive anymore, so no provoking me from them…..I didn’t punch doors, my brother did that. I mainly punched him, even my older cousin remembers how he would taunt me, until I snapped. I used to think I was the mean one, but now I realize I was just reacting to abuse. Now I see him so clearly, after the ND came back psychopath for my brother…I realize most of his behavior towards me was because he was bored. I used to regret keeping him at arms length, after what he tried when I was 12, you know after he died. I felt guilt and regret, thinking I was too hard on him and too standoffish at times with him. I regretted not having a normal, healthy relationship with my brother, but that wasn’t really my fault. I was just reacting, again, to abuse.
We both were abused, so I can’t blame him for the way he was. He was just surviving hell too, and I know some people won’t understand that he was still my brother and everything that comes with that. It didn’t stop me from feeling empathy for him, understanding his point of view and still loving him. I just didn’t trust him and so I held parts of myself away from him…the ones I truly trust, I hold nothing back xx
Hi Rebecca, I have very strong feelings about people using being abused as an excuse to abuse others. I think its bullshit. You and I were both abused and we don’t abuse others. You’re just excusing your brother’s behavior toward you and his behavior was inexcusable.
I think for you to truly move passed this you have to stop making excuses and feeling guilt & regret for not letting your brother in. It doesn’t matter that he was your brother. He abused you and I don’t think he deserved your kindness and understanding. We often don’t have empathy for ourselves. By making excuses, you’re accepting the behavior. I think you deserve better.
I wanted to add that sometimes we desperately want our loved ones to be good people. It can be a tough pill to swallow.
When we admit to ourselves that they aren’t good people, it’s easier to let them go.
You’re right and I’ve been told recently, from a few people, that I tend to overlook and dismiss abuse. I guess it’s a form of coping with it for me because I lived it for so long and evidently still living in it, just not as bad, in my point of view. My childhood was worse, than my life now, so to me it doesn’t seem that bad… but, now my eyes are open and I see it’s still abuse, whether it’s physical or not, doesn’t matter, abuse is abuse….is what I have to drill into my own head. I do make excuses for my abusers, past and present. It’s hard to unlearn a coping behavior, habit, whatever you want to call it. You’re right, my brother and mother weren’t good to me and they couldn’t have loved me, treating me the way they did. They’re both gone, I shouldn’t miss them and I’m relieved they can’t hurt me again, and that gives me the most peace at night now. Xx
Rebecca, you and I are so similar. I feel the same.as you. The abuse now isn’t like the abuse I sustained as a child. That doesn’t negate the fact that its still abuse. The abusers rely on us minimizing it. We have to stop doing that..
I also believe that I’m inherently bad. I’ve thought that I must deserve this for some reason. The other day on the blog I wrote, I wish my husband would shuffle off. My first thought was who thinks these kinds of things and then who writes them for people to see. I must be a terrible person. But that’s bullshit also. Its because my emotional empathy for him is so eroded that I don’t care if he lives or died. When we think we’re inherently bad, it’s our ET conning us to stay. We’ve been gaslit and conditioned by our abusers since birth. We’ve been made to believe that it’s our fault & that we have to stay and fix it. No, it’s not our fault and no, we don’t have to fix it. Continualy thinking that you’re the bad one has kept you on the wheel of misery.
When you start feeling bad, stop and ask.yourself why and ask yourself if it makes sense. Then call it what it is, “this is my emotional thinking conning me.” Once you realize that you’ve been conditioned to believe this about yourself, you’ll be angry at your perpetrators and start to feel better about yourself. Then, you’ll not only escape them physically, you’ll escape them emotionally too.
I spent the majority of my life believing I was the bad person, because that’s what I was told by my mother and sometimes by my brother. I even thought I was the narcissist and not my husband. It’s hard for me to get my head around the idea that my husband is the narcissist, my mother most likely was too and my brother was a psychopath. It’s just all shocking, but yet I can see the behaviors HG teaches about, from my husband…and my mother definitely was manipulative and abusive…but, part of me still wants to yell back…I loved them, they couldn’t have been bad..no, no, no! Why do I accept their bad behavior as something I deserve so much that I dismiss it??
Why is it sometimes accepted?
Because lesser abuse can masquerade as love when compared to more extreme experiences and there is a need to feel worthy of it?
Lesser, or not as obvious, abuse, when we’ve been conditioned to strong and clear abuse, can be accepted as loving behavior.
What’s worse, I didn’t even realize what my mother had done was abuse, it was the strong, physical, clearly abuse kind also, until in my early 30’s. Starting from that point, I had no clue what “minor” abuse consisted of, the cheating, the silent treatments etc, until I got here and read Red Flag and Black Flag. Those were eye openers. Conditioned to the point that anything not physical, and even then rape was okay, was healthy behavior, we are left wide open to whatever they might bring. Thankfully we can learn what abuse is, we can learn to watch for it and walk away. We do not have to live defined by our conditioning.
AV, the conditioning and gaslighting was so strong for me as well. I didn’t realize my father physically abused me either. I figured since he was from a different country, this is how they disciplined. What’s ironic, as a child I didn’t give that same latitude to my mother. I knew she was neglectful and I knew that was wrong.
Until I came to narcsite, I didn’t realize that I was still suffering from abuse and still being conditioned. It’s been eye opening for me.
That is interesting, that you didn’t give your mother the same latitude. It is all such a mess, my mom badmouthing our dad to us while being abusive herself, him not badmouthing but certainly not being the father one should be, how it computes in each brain on a unique and individual basis and produces each of us. I think anyone who has been raised in an abusive situation needs at the least understanding and hopefully even guidance in a way in which their eyes are opened to reality. Yes, narcsite has been highly beneficial to those of us fortunate enough to see ourselves, our situations, in the articles, comments and videos.
I had heard an interview with Mr. Tudor and he spoke about how the Queen and SM had “learned” intuitively how to behave in order to not threaten a narcissist’s control. It blew me away when I heard it. I couldn’t believe it. Its when it dawned on me that I do the same thing. I have intuitively learned how to not threaten control. Becoming aware of this has been pivotal moment for me.
Here’s the link to my original conversation with Mr. Tudor. I hope it helps you as much as its helped me. I think you should listen to the interview too. Hearing it directly from Mr. Tudor, really confirmed it for me.
I’ve felt and thought the same thing about my husband, wanting him to just leave or die and I automatically feel guilt and shame for thinking it and felt worse for feeling happy about it, before the guilt kicked in….I’ve been there too. It makes me think I have a dark part in me, to wish death on someone….I look in the mirror and try to see some darkness there and I just see my own pain and guilt. It’s somehow fitting that my eyes are blue.
I know HG tells me positive things about myself, that he sees, during consultation. I’m amazed by the good he sees in me. Xx
This is terrible but I don’t feel guilt for wanting him gone. I think you know I had an 18 month affair. I don’t feel guilt about that either. The reason I feel like there’s a dark part of me or that I’m inherently bad is because I don’t feel any guilt or regret about those things. But those feelings are the feelings that raise our ET and con us into staying ensnared. That’s why when those thoughts pop up, you have to knock them out of your head.
@ Leigh and @ NarcAngel,
Leigh, I read your earlier conversation with HG and that explains the long term relationship I have with MLSOMATIC (husband) and the eight year relationship I had with my ex, who was diagnosed Borderline PD. I believe I’ve been conditioned from birth, it seems like, due to my narc mother. It explains how I was able to avoid a lot of punishment. I noticed the other week, during consultation with HG, how I reacted to his change of pitch and tone first and then what he was saying last….I automatically adjusted myself and that was the first time I was aware I was doing it, while I was doing…I’ve been doing it since I was a child. My mother would get angry and my options were avoid her, or show her one of my drawings…she liked my drawings, they cheered her up, most of the time. She was very proud of my artistic abilities. She would brag to people at church and family…talked about how talented I was etc…I thought it was the only time she loved me, when she was proud of me. I wanted her to be proud of me, approve of me, be happy with me, it was the only way I felt loved by her and I so desperately wanted her to love me. It makes me tear up thinking about it. All that effort, pain and defeat, just to try it again and again….she would have never loved me, she couldn’t love me, that’s not me. That’s her inability to love, not my burden, not my fault and it’s not because I’m not lovable. I only partially believe that, I still think I could have tried harder, because I don’t know when to quit. That’s my conditioning there, try and try and keep trying….appease, appease, appease…it’s the only way I’ve learned to get approval. It does all make sense and why MLSOMATIC wants to hold on to me so tightly. He even likes it when I snap back at him, he enjoys the bickering I shove back at him. He enjoys my fireworks when I explode on him. He’s still being super nice, he’s coming home from work early , just around 2pm. I think he thinks he’ll catch me trying to leave, at least that’s what I’m thinking. I haven’t said anything to him. I just think he’s paranoid because he knows I’m not happy. He’s currently building me a bookcase. Is this a respite period or is he trying to appease me?? He’s manipulating me by being nice, so he thinks he can keep me with a bookcase?? Xx
I hope the above comment answered your question about why we sometimes accept abuse, if not, I’ll tell you. We accept some abuse because we’re used to it, partially it hardly bothers us because it’s normal to us. We used to get worse abuse and this mild abuse is almost barely noticed. It’s mild to me because I’m used to physical abuse. My parents were physically abusive, though my dad was manipulated into it and my first husband was physically abusive, so the emotional and mental abuse I get from current husband isn’t that bad to me, in comparison to physical abuse I used to deal with before. Why do we take it? Because we don’t know any different and we don’t think anywhere is any better. We’ll get abused wherever we go…at least it seems that way to me. Are they nice, or is it nice for right now? Will it be worse, or will I just get used to another type of abuse? It’s what I think about, when I think of moving.i have a friend, who lives in State of New York. She’s nice,used to work with her, she’s older and very mentally strong and stable. She has a boyfriend she lives with. I don’t know him, only met him once and he seemed ok….but, I don’t trust strange men and the idea of living with him, with my friend, worries me, scares me and gives me bad nerves. I thought about sleeping with a tazer, but who wants to live like that. Besides, I’d probably zap myself in bed. 😂 This is why I have a consultation with HG. Xx
And I just wanted to add, that all my friends are married ,or with a man they live with, so it’s all the same situation, except for my best friend…but, MLSOMATIC would look for me at her place definitely 100%.
I’m so excited that you noticed that you adjusted your reaction to Mr. Tudor’s change in his tone. We’ve been conditioned to intuitively adapt so not to threaten their control. For me, knowing that is a HUGE part of the battle. If you’re aware of when you’re intuitively adapting your behavior to appease the narcissist, you can stop adapting your behaviors. Getting out is very important but, its only one half of the battle. We also have to stop adjusting our behaviors to appease the narcissist. Another part of the conditioning is to not recognize it as abuse or manipulation. Your question about will I just get used to another type of abuse is the very reason why its so important to understand that we’ve been conditioned in the first place. If we’re aware of when we adapt our behavior or excuse their behaviors, then we can stop ourselves from becoming ensnared again.
What in the actual…..I’ve tried to respond twice and it’s disappeared before hitting send. I’ll wait to see if either of those post.
You responded as though I had asked a question or needed an explanation, but that was not the case.
“Why do I accept their bad behavior as something I deserve so much that I dismiss it??”
I provided a possible explanation to YOUR question, (which you appear to have confirmed in your explanation).
My sister continues to be ensnared by narcissists (recently married to one) because she fails to see their manipulations (as compared to Dad) as control or abuse. Dad was physical. THAT was abuse to her, and her husband doesn’t do that (at least yet). She NEEDS confirmation that she is (and always was) worthy of love, so she accepts anything less as the “normal ups and downs in a relationship”. As love. She will only acknowledge that she has “chosen wrong” previously, but refuses to acknowledge why that might be, and that she can do something about it. She just knows it’s different this time.
It’s not, but she will be damned if she will expose herself as being unlovable yet again. She will stay and prove to everyone that she is. There is the danger.
Sorry to hear that your sister remains ensnared. I expect that it must be difficult to witness, given the knowledge that you have.
“…she will be damned if she will expose herself as being unlovable yet again. She will stay and prove to everyone that she is. There is the danger.”
Sounds like your sister would score high on pride, were she to take the Trait Detector – possibly love devotee, as well.
The same thing happened to me today too and the other day, I had to retype my comments twice. Glitches are annoying. Hope your comments come through, I think mine went the way of the dodo bird. 😂 Poof xx
No doubt those two traits would be high. It’s interesting how siblings growing up in the same family dynamic can be so different in their trait composition and be affected so differently moving forward. Sometimes talking to them, I wonder if Empaths don’t also have a total defence mechanism.
In my experience there can certainly be a lot of denial happening in conjunction with emotional thinking, addiction etc.,, but in the case of an empath, the denial is conscious form of self-protection…which has limitations to it’s power to protect – like a band-aid solutions in the worse case scenarios.
Thank you for your thoughts on denial being the defence mechanism of the empath. I would add cognitive dissonance, which includes denial. It was my brains way of making sense out of nonsense and was, is still often, unconsciously done.
Disordered is an interesting term, I suppose in a way it fits. I have long thought of us as sick/unhealthy, when living in our high ET mode and without knowledge. Coming closer to wellness/health, when we gain knowledge and lower our ET.
Empaths have empathy all of the time, same as normals and even narcissistic people, but we can learn to use logic, logical thinking, by learning to go to the evidence and other things. And that doing so becomes easier as we lower our ET.
Disorder, from my understanding, is applied when there is little to no possibility of change. So it is fitting for NPD, ASPD etc. It also seems to indicate some form of aberrant abusive potential, which empaths do not have.
There is a symbiotic aspect to the narc empath relationship, that is certain. There is an addiction to the narc also, they feed our addiction. I think addiction is different than disordered, though I see how the two both cause issues and control things when allowed to. This may be the key, we do not have to live in our addiction, narcs do have to live in their disorder, as of this time there is no cure for them. This being another difference between us. If we stay away from narcs, our ET does come down, this is known. We become healthier.
We have and use empathy all the time, ET fluctuates along with our interaction or lack of interaction with narcissists. This is why we are taught to GOSO and use NC.
I am still catching up on what went down and struggling to follow the relevant threads here…
But, know that I am in the “don’t change for anyone” camp – then again, I feel that about most people.
I still remember when someone said, on the blog, something to the effect of Bubbles being too sweet and warm (sorry to use you as an example, Bubbles) and I was like – seriously?
“The reference to empaths having a total defence mechanism was a bit tongue in cheek (mostly with regard to my sister’s situation), but it also got me wondering.”
In my initial reading, I actually did wonder if you were being tongue-in-cheek…but then I doubted myself and chose to respond in a more serious fashion.
Sorry, your previous comment had questions in it, “Why is it accepted?” You wrote and then you asked another question and I can’t see it now….and I don’t want to risk my comment disappearing again…sorry for the confusion. Xx
I’m glad I noticed my adapting to HG’s tone of voice and vibe changing…I just automatically adjusted myself and I was shocked. 😂 Believe me MLSOMATIC is being very nice and friendly to me, we had a verbal argument the other day and he got angry and it put me on edge and made me walk on eggshells….but, then he goes back to being calm and he tells me, it’s him, not me. His family is going through an adjustment period and they’re feeling growing pains, and he’s stressing about it, he says….Do narcs worry about their family? Doesn’t seem to be a real concern, so he must be saying it to make me feel sorry for him.
HG and Leigh,
I’m meeting with the woman co worker I’m going to be moving in with, on Friday. I’m going to her house and checking out the place, get a feel of things. Hopefully all goes well. Xx
MLSomatic was blameshifting. It was also a pity play. He’s not the problem, his family’s adjustment period is the problem. He also wants you to feel bad for him that he has to deal with it.
That’s awesome news. I’m so glad you found somewhere to go. Fingers and toes crossed that it goes well!
I saw your comment above about your Geyser. I love my Geyser. My carrier is about carrying someone else. My savior is about saving someone else. Even though when the Geyser erupts, it may benefit a narc, its still about me. Its how I feel emotions and how I release them. I laugh loud, I cry loud and I yell loud. Its definitely my favorite!
Let me clear this up for you.
You asked: Why do I accept their bad behaviour?
I responded: Why is it accepted? (as in….in answer to your question…….).
Then I proceeded to provide a possible answer to your question. I added a question mark at the end as in: might this be applicable to your case? (or anyone else’s?).
I had no questions and needed no explanation. I was attempting to assist with your question about why you (or anyone) accepts those behaviours, but I see that I only caused you confusion. I won’t contribute anymore to the conversation to avoid that continuing (confusion).
Since its a public blog, I decided to comment on this. Do you not realize that some of your comments come off as passive aggressive or condescending? “Let me clear it up for you” is incredibly condescending and you come off as beyond reproach.
One of my principles in life, has been that its ok if you can’t help, but please don’t hurt. Maybe you don’t realize it, but you aren’t always helpful and sometimes you’re even hurtful.
I think in many ways ET is that defence mechanism. I can honestly say that me with high ET is unrecognisable from me with low ET.
I’ve seen similar with my friend. When he was ensnared he was very very different to how he is now post escape and his ET still has further to fall.
I think when ET is low, we almost come across as ‘not as nice/ not as warm.’ Our core is still the same, the traits, drivers etc, but we present very differently.
WhoCares and TS
The reference to empaths having a total defence mechanism was a bit tongue in cheek (mostly with regard to my sister’s situation), but it also got me wondering.
We (I am including myself) accept for narcissists, that their narcissism is a total defence system and that they cannot change. Unconscious. Unlimited in it’s power to protect.
We discuss empaths as having ET, addiction, denial as a conscious form of self protection, and limited. That we can change.
Might we have a bias or vested interest in differentiating between the two? I mean isn’t it easy to accept being told that none of it is our fault, that we were powerless to the manipulations of the narcissist? The categories or descriptions of the empath are not especially derogatory (Carrier, Geyser, Magnet, Saviour etc) whereas the Narcs are Lesser, Mid (who ever wants to be mid range at anything? haha) and Greater. Greater referring to level of manipulation and not in a positive sense.
There was a previous exercise here (can’t remember the name) where people were assigned (through individual request) titles such as Knight, etc, that were positive in a kick ass kind of way and I remember thinking: well who wouldn’t want to be known as such. It’s empowering and understandably easy to embrace.
Understandably, positivity is used in this forum in relation to empaths (but we are also not painted as angels as someone previously suggested), and we are not listed in the DSM. But we are also not “normal”.
So…might it be that we have a form of defence mechanism? One that allows us to believe that we were less participant than we would like to think? One not yet recognized by professionals, because how do you attach a “disorder” to such a positive, forgiving, and loving group of individuals when that is supposedly what we are told as a society we should strive to be. Especially when it is often to our own detriment.
Yeah, MLSOMATIC was trying ro get me to feel bad for him. His family is toxic though, I think they’re narcs. HG confirmed his daughter is a narc. The behaviors of his stepdad and brothers isn’t looking too good for them either.
I’m looking forward ro getting with my woman coworker this evening. I’ll keep you posted.
Which part of your empath results do you relate to most?? How do you see yourself?? My Geyser is the one I most relate roo in the cadre, with Savior running in second. With the schools it’s Codependent I mostly relate to and second is Contagion. I mostly see myself as Geyser because my emotions are so strong to me. Savior is my biggest cadre, being 50% and I do automatically go in and save the pup or the child without thoughts of my own safety….I’m 55 % Standard, so I’m an emotional empath who feels empathy for mostly everyone and I have strong urges to rescue people and animals. Xx
I’m a perfect triple hybrid. Just to clarify, Mr. Tudor used the work perfect, not me. He used it because I’m equal parts, 33% each of Savior, Carrier, Geyser. I actually relate to all 3 of those equally. I save, carry, erupt. Rinse and repeat, lol.
As for my schools, I’m standard, super and Contagion. I guess I operate in Standard most of the time but I don’t feel like I have a lot of patience for people. I know patience doesn’t equate to empathy but I feel like if I had more empathy, I’d be more patient. 🤷♀️
My Contagion operates differently. I don’t normally feel others emotions. It has happened but not as often as others on the blog. My Contagion manifests as a guardian angel on my shoulder or my spidey sense. My spidey sense, inner voice, gut ot whatever you want to call it, guides me in my daily life. More than anything else, I trust my gut. The only tines that shit has gone sideways for me is when I haven’t listened to my gut.
I hope it went well with checking out the new place. What did you think?
@NarcAngel and Leigh,
Thank you Leigh for your comment on my behalf, I appreciate your kinship, kindness and friendship. Xx
I appreciate your insight and advice, but as I wrote to you earlier on my April 12th response to you, regarding your previous comments.that came out as questions, though you didn’t mean them as questions….it was an honest misunderstanding on my part, when I see a ?, I regard it as a question. You didn’t mean it as a question. Ok, I get that. I understand that, but my confusion is understandable and not an indication of a lack of intelligence on my part. I agree with Leigh on your, “let me clear this up for you” comment was condescending and I hope we can move on from this. My error was assuming your ? was a question needing an answer and I answered you with, what I thought was my own personal deduction of my own personal experiences. Again, sorry for my own confusion.
@Leigh, thank you again for your defense on my part. Xx
Hi Rebecca, you’re very welcome. To me, NA wasn’t clear in her original comment. She asked a question so you assume she wanted an answer. She didn’t say it was a rhetorical question. Then when you answer, she got snippy with you. To me, that’s passive aggressive. You’re to nice to be treated that way. I couldn’t help myself, my Savior was triggered and I had to jump in.
Stating a question is rhetorical rather defeats the purpose.
I need clarity please. Stating a question is rhetorical defeats what purpose? The purpose of being passive aggressive? When I ask a question that doesn’t require a response, I’ll state that it’s just food for thought. NA’s questions were not clear that they were meant to be food for thought. When Rebecca responded to the questions, NA got condescending and said, “Let me clear this up for you.” As if Rebecca is inept.
I stand by my original statement. Not stating the question is rhetorical is passive aggressive.
A rhetorical question is clearly so. Having to state it is rhetorical defeats it’s purpose.
I think any time you have a distribution involving people you will end up with a majority group ( fitness level, height, intelligence etc) and extremes above and below that form smaller groups. Extremes are extremes and it is how they are interpreted that is either positive or negative. So in the case of intelligence, extreme intelligence is often perceived as desirable. Ask the gifted child how they feel about that and the reality might be very different. Low intelligence ‘undesirable’ again the individual view might be very different.
Personality in many ways I think is similar. So the normals could be described as ‘ordered’ with an ideal balance of selfishness and selflessness. Either side you have the empath reaching far into selflessness and the narcissist far into selfishness. ( just a single trait example for illustration) With personality, unlike height or intelligence there is the concept of being disordered. When drivers are unbalanced one way or the other. So logically, in my mind, empaths and narcissists are both disordered, it’s just that empaths are viewed positively as they don’t damage others. Narcissists negatively because they do.
If empaths are indeed disordered, then it is the disorder that runs the show. You can’t easily separate the disorder from the host, but if conscious of the disorder you can perhaps better manage how the disorder presents. The very fact that we can complete an EDC and be categorised, tells me that my disorder has common symptoms / behaviours. They are not specific just to me. I will have behavioural preference within a set suite of options. Similar with narcissists.
The attraction between narc and empath is real. For the empath, the narcissist facilitates the empath being the empath to the fullest extent. Or, the narcissist allows the disorder to manifest to its fullest extent? The NPD disorder therefore compliments and partners with the Empathic disorder?
I agree. We aren’t normal.
In terms of self defence mechanisms I do think ET is the defence mechanism for the empath. ET is a broad term that encompasses many aspects, more than we often reference ourselves. The empath has ET all of the time. If it wasn’t a self defence mechanism I would think ET would not be present all of the time. It would be present with the narcissist and disappear without him.
So for me, there are indicators that suggest we are actually disordered. Being at any extreme of any scale is never a good thing. For example what if an empath scored 99.9% for empathic traits on the TDC? How would she function in the world?
I wouldn’t change my empathic nature. Is that empowerment or is it that I’m wedded to my disorder in the same way a Greater is wedded to his?
Interesting question NA.
@HG and Leigh,
We had to reschedule due to her job arrangements having her coming home really late from the inner city. We exchanged numbers the other day, so she said she’ll contact me soon. If i don’t hear from her this weekend, I’ll see her on Monday. Xx
I was shocked I came back 27% Codependent. I didn’t expect that and after I read, CHAINED, I realized I related to it with a lot of my behaviors, my conditioning behaviors are very Codependent around narcs. I’m living with one, as you know and so my Codependent behaviors gets triggered. My ET is high, been that way my whole life, narc mother…narc ex and current narc husband…I guess it means I haven’t ever experienced much LT, explains why I see myself as so emotional and such a HSP. I get told a lot that I’m too kind and too sensitive. I allow people too much freedom with how they speak to me, when I’m actually just dismissing their bad behavior at times. Usually when my frustration is high, or when my anger is triggered from stress, I snap with a bit of my mouth, rarely do I hit people. For me to hit people, it would be in self defense of myself or another…I can see that I see myself meaner than I am, but that darkened view of myself comes from being made to feel bad about myself for having or expressing negative emotions. I equated bad emotions as meaning I was a bad person. It’s not true, I need to stop thinking that way. Bad emotions doesn’t mean I’m a bad person. You’d think I’d know that, but it’s part of my conditioning..conditioning I recently accepted as truth. I was abused, it did happen to me and my mother isn’t here to cover it up, lie about it, make excuses and smooth it over with words of “I love you, that’s why I disciplined you” No, people who love you, don’t abuse you….as HG has said. Truer words have not been spoken. Xx
Rebecca, I’m sorry to hear you didn’t get to meet up with the woman from your job.
My ET has always been high too. I know we can’t truly lower our ET until we’re free but there are small things you can do that will help. When you think you’re mean, stop yourself and ask if that’s your mom talking. We all have bad behaviours. You just witnessed some of mine today.
We’re all in different stages in our journey to freedom. We’re getting there Rebecca, one day at a time.
Yes, you captured my train of thinking almost exactly. I appreciate your open and careful consideration of the subject and the sharing your thoughts as well.
I also see ET as m.in. defense mechanism (excellent!). There comes a point in life, where you test different mechanisms (perceived as bad and good) – and choose the best one for you.
Two years ago, I was worried about my daughter. I felt and see she was at a crossroads. Now, at the age of 17, I can say with all confidence that she has already chosen and is following her path. Similar into her mother 🙂 I’m happy 🙂 She will experience so many wonderful things, that many don’t even dream of (including sad and painful ones – because there is beauty in them too!). Smart girl 🙂
TS, disorder? Of course! I love this storm! 🙂 Only a contradictory thought pushes this world forward. Only contradictory thought creates and produces. Contradictory thought is the engine of life and development.
Qualifying it as a kind of “disease” is sacrilege 🙂 A disorder is when you can’t find yourself within the overall picture of life.
Normals basically just consume life. But… they give the world a schematic. Like a filter to stop excess. Brake.
Sometimes it happens to us to sail in one direction, then you should look around and slow down 🙂
Back to a state of contradiction… and disorder. Make a revision. And keep going.
Girls, approaching this dialogue from a distance (to others and to themselves) – how wonderful yours cadres look and shine through here.
Leigh, your attitude touched me. Yes, Rebecca is a super nice and kind person 🙂
I wrote it here before, right at the beginning, when I appeared almost two years ago (how long I stay here…). Logic should go hand in hand with emotion. Braided tightly like a braid.
Logic always at the bottom. Emotions on top.
After all, it’s not our aspiration to become a Narcissist?
This is my way of life. And I certainly won’t change it.
I love the way you word things. “Normals consume life.” I’m quite scathing towards normals too. I’d far prefer to be an empath than a normal.
I think we have a broader range of reference, our emotions and senses are sharper, we notice things that most miss. We look up at the sky.
With every upside there tends to be a downside. If being an empath is technically a disorder, I’m comfortable with that. I will never be cured, can’t take the empath out of me. Fortunately, I’ll always experience the world this way and unfortunately I’ll always have a degree of ET and an addiction to manage. With awareness, I don’t have to be a slave to that though. Take the good bits, minimise the bad. Better that than mundane numb normality. 😊
“Rhetorical questions are questions that do not expect an answer. A rhetorical question is a question asked to make a point, rather than get an answer. If you have ever been late, someone might say: ‘What time do you call this? ‘ This person doesn’t want an answer to the question.”
Note that the person does not say: “This is a rhetorical question, but what time do you call this”.
I wanted to put: Let me clear this up for you for levity, but decided it would likely not be embraced presently as such by those who do not share my admittedly warped sense of humour.
If you feel that this comment will serve no purpose in clarification but only up the Aggro meter, then please, by all means, dispatch it to the depths of hell where I will see it later and reflect on my inability to NOT see humour in it.
I know that rhetorical questions are questions that do not expect an answer. The issue is that if people don’t know you, how do they know your question is rhetorical? Its not always clear. In your example, of course that’s clear. I’ve said those words to my children many times. But you put questions out there and then when someone answers, you tell them you didn’t want an answer. I’ve been here for 4 years. I know you like to ask rhetorical questions to get people to think. Not everyone else knows that though. Then to come back to Rebecca and speak to her like she’s obtuse for not understanding this about you is unfair.
Thank you, but we’re making arrangements to meet up and see her place. I have confidence it will happen.
I’m determined to see this through, one day at a time! Xx We all have flaws, we all make mistakes and we all learn is the best part! Xx Thanks Leigh xx
@Joa and Leigh,
I hope I can have my LT and ET work together like a braid some day, Joa.It sounds like a nice way to be, as my emotions are so strong and such a part of the core of me….I can’t imagine them not being on top. I think you’re right, emotions should be on top and a part of your logical thinking process, that way you don’t lose sight of the fact you’re dealing with a person, with their own feelings and needs, and not an object that doesn’t need any considerations. A very humane way to live and see the world. I like your thinking Joa! Thanks for the compliments and I have to say, I agree with you…what Leigh did was very inspiring and warmed my heart. Thank you both Xx
You’re very welcome Rebecca.
I agree. I like Joa’s thinking very much as well. Having your ET & LT working together is a very humane way of living and dealing with others.
Yes, we all have flaws. I have a TON of them, lol! But learning from them is key. I’m still a work in progress, lol.
I hope it goes well with your coworker. I’m keeping my fingers crossed for you.
I am hoping also for things to work out with my coworker. Thanks for the support! Xx
NA, that’s really sad to read your sister feels she needs to prove she is loveable. I guess we all want to be loved but since finding HG, I no longer feel that need in the slightest. Being able to explain away my behaviours and that of others I fully understand what may irritate others about me, sometimes I’m prepared to adapt to ‘fit in’ other times I’m just not and don’t care. Like many things now, I just pretend everyone does hahah seriously though its sad. I could not bring myself to stay with someone in the hopes they love me. If I’m having fun, I accept the fun, as soon as its not fun any more then I’m off.
Dearest Who Cares,
No need to apologise lovely one
I’m very comfortable in my ageing wrinkly skin haha
Contentment is my calm. However, having said that, I do have a self defence bridge I willing to protect if need be. Hehe
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Bubbles – “Contentment is my calm. However, having said that, I do have a self defence bridge I willing to protect if need be.”
Good to hear!
It’s quite natural for you to be experiencing those things. I am just saying that where there is fear (and we have all experienced it), it can help to try to reframe it from fear of the unknown (as a negative), to fear as in excitement of what is yet to come (as a positive) when you are no longer in the position you are now. I have strong emotions as well that are not always logical. That can come for everyone with enough time, practice, and observation. It is usually the case for one to see more easily looking in, at situations where you are not directly involved (especially if you have experienced it and come out the other side). That is one of the reason s HG’s work and advice is so effective. He can give it to you straight and we accept the sometimes harsh truths because we know not to expect the emotion from him that seems expected of other empaths. Logic or uncomfortable observations from another empath seem to be viewed almost as some kind of betrayal instead of merely a different consideration. ET at it’s finest.
I have no stake in what you (or anyone else) decides to do. This is a public blog and people make comments, suggestions, and give opinions. I imagine it would be weird to pour out your heart in a comment only to receive crickets by way of no response (because it’s “your business”), and it certainly seems suspect at best and dishonest at worst, to have everyone in agreement. No one is under any pressure to agree with, or accept any of what is offered, and you owe no one any explanations or follow ups. That is entirely up to you. I wish you the very best outcome whatever you decide.
Regarding your second paragraph – that’s good to know. I hope they can help you with the stress of leaving.
But I should just say – the stress at the thought of the unknown outcome of leaving is understandably causing your fear and hesitation – because it is UNKNOWN. Yes, there will likely be bumps in the road – but the peace and clarity of mind etc., that you will find without the narcissist in your life is worth risking the unknown for.
The stress that you deal with on a daily basis with the narcissist in your life is a known factor and it is also a KNOWN fact that the trajectory of the stress from that situation only has one direction – and it’s a downward spiral.
I was a Navy kid and so I know a lot of other ex Navy kids, I have old friends in several States and none of them MLSOMATIC knows. I just have to choose where to live, I might even travel from friend to friend, if I need to, as long as I keep my job. I’ve gotta be able to help out, don’t want to mooch on anyone. I’m not my brother. The future is wide open, sound like that Tom Petty song…’Wide Open’…I’ll be singing, ‘Don’t come around here no more’ soon enough 😂 One thing at a time…so the mountain isn’t so huge..xx
It’s so good to read that you have options.
“One thing at a time…so the mountain isn’t so huge..xx”
I just get excited for those who are so close to freedom – I don’t wish them the struggles that they might encounter, but I can’t wait for them to experience the peace of mind and the freedom from fog that only comes with time and physical distance away from the narcissist.
Cheering you on, Rebecca! 💗
Thanks, I’m trying to not get overwhelmed, so one thing st a time. I like to rush and do too much at times, trying so hard not to be careless and jump too soon. I get so impatient and want things now. Breathe, breathe….Rome wasn’t built in a day….at this point, my husband and I are like roommates, it still doesn’t stop him from trying to get some, but no, not interested. I told him the other day, find a girlfriend. He looked a bit disappointed and i saw a hint of anger.
Sorry, only just seen this! I just want to say that’s great that you have reached out at work and asked for help; that can’t have been at all easy, so well done for taking the first step xx
No worries and thank you! I appreciate your support and encouragement. Xx I’m hoping to get everything in motion, without stressing myself out so much, a little help, goes a long way! Xx
You’re welcome, any time xx
NA, I found your pondering on Empath traits regarding positivity vs the negative connotations of the narcissist descriptions very thought provoking. In reference to your questions: “ So…might it be that we have a form of defence mechanism? One that allows us to believe that we were less participant than we would like to think? One not yet recognized by professionals, because how do you attach a “disorder” to such a positive, forgiving, and loving group of individuals.” I have been recently “diagnosed” or rather typified by my doctor as a HSP/SP (highly sensitive person or sensitive-processing, for obvious reasons I like the latter acronym better). It is a neurological condition though it is not a disorder. While many of the traits of this condition can be really annoying to the person and to others (I get overwhelmed by multiple external stimuli, or feel really distressed in a negative environment) it also carries with it empathy and intense sensory perception (synesthesia in my case though not necessarily) in addition to deep thinking, lucid dreaming and other positive traits. Or traits that have been regarded as positive, like you well explained. I suspected for a while HSP are empaths. So to answer your question, it has started to be recognized by professionals. Unfortunately, while high sensitivity is valued in other cultures, it tends to be mocked and dismissed in Anglo-centered and most European cultures. I, and very probably most of the commenters here too, have been told many times that I am “too emotional / too sensitive.” Especially in my workplace, which is an academia pond full of nasty narcs, who already describe my enthusiasm as “too passionate.” I hate the lack of sensitivity of the world 90% of the time. That’s another HSP/SP.
Interesting that it has started to be recognized by professionals. I wonder what has prompted them to finally delve into this area. Also interesting to me, the assignment of the label (neurological condition vs disorder for example) and the effect of that assignment on the patient given any positive or negative association. I know they are defined individually and to a standard used by professionals, but they are ultimately assigned to the patient by doctors using their own differing observations and interpretations. I know people who have been diagnosed with one thing only to be told by another doctor that it is another condition or disorder altogether. It’s no wonder people are confused.
Exactly. I could be diagnosed with Asperger’s or Autism. It’s usually a process of exclusion: let’s look for potential negatives and when we rule them out we give you the good news. Such is Western science! I adopt the same attitude I do with horoscope predictions: if they tell me something good, that’s the one. I don’t particularly think having higher sensitivity is positive. In my case, it is more disabling than positive at the end of the day.
I agree, disabling. I just want to live, not worry about everything or be affected by everything, it sucks. And knowing that my ex saw it and saw the potential, what the shifting sands or a nice dose of gaslighting would do, knowing my parents made me that way, seriously?! I agree, it totally sucks.
You are perfect the way you are
Autism is also in my family.
I wonder how or what happens to people with Autism if they get traumatised.
I know for a fact that people with Autism have hearts of Gold and are truthseekers. They do not lie. They lack empathy but they tell the truth. Good people. I have the highest respect for people on the spectrum.
Anna, thank you so much, I do not have any spectrum of Autism but if I did I would tell and would not mind to do so. Everyone is perfect as they are, even though the conditions are not perfect for all.
Anna, it touched my heart.
“You are perfect the way you are”.
I love when people “bloom”, when you show them that you accept them for who they are, with their flaws, bad moods, negative behavior and mistakes.
The same applies to me too – I “blossomed” many times, many times I was forgiven, tolerated and endowed me with sympathy.
This gives you great confidence.
One of my daughters has commented on a few occasions in the last year that she believes I am a HSP also. She has recognized certain behaviors and responses I have to some things as over-reaction when seen next to “normal” reactions. She does not fault me for this, she actually often appreciates it and will come to me for insight as a result. Her being aware of it, and making me aware of it, has helped both of us grow in some different ways. I had wondered about it a couple years previously for myself, for a while, but had forgotten until she reminded me.
Being here, things had begun to make sense so I no longer was looking to “outside” therapies/labels etc. Because of some of the fantastic work by some bloggers here, I have used outside thinking in conjunction with what is here to broaden my thinking at times. At other times it has only brought me back to what is here already and I toss it out rather than muddle things.
I think sometimes the desire to use various labels can in itself be a way to try to understand what has happened, who we are etc, a defence mechanism in itself. I have been coming to believe that because I choose to dismiss looking at “new” ways to consider things, choosing instead to go by the things taught here consistently over the course of the blog, I am likely viewed by some as less than progressive. I don’t care about that.
I do care that empaths, even when we are not healthy and are allowing our addiction free reign and being symbiotic with the narc, are still the ones being victimized and that we do not benefit by being labeled with things that take hope from us. Hope that we can change, hope that we can improve our own lives, hope that we are not trapped in some kind of “disorder”. I will be called less that progressive perhaps but I know I can change, I have done it, I have heard from others who have done it, using principles taught here since before I arrived. Just as I will not allow myself the luxury of hope that any narc can change, I will also not give any label or remove any hope that any empath cannot change if they decide it is what they want to do. I will also not blame any empath for having been or currently being victimized. Because I had to find my way out, I will continue to believe that if they come to a place where they are ready, they can do so also. And I will stand by ready to help them in any way I can at that point.
Being a highly sensitive person is not a negative and we are in a position to change thinking on it, one person at a time if need be. Thank you for comment, I did use it as a place to vent a little bit it was only that, a place, not asked at you at all. I appreciated what you said a lot.
I am glad you did, AV, it was very comforting to read your comment. Thank you.
Thank you SP, I did not expect your response. I didn’t know what to expect really, except people (not you) possibly thinking I’m nuts. Especially since I spoke out of both sides of my mouth for a minute there.
On one hand, I hate the automatic, visceral response to certain stimuli, it doesn’t always feel good. On the other hand, I am very thankful for, as Rebecca said, the ability to see the richness in life in a way that I suspect many can’t.
So, pros and cons to being a HSP. I don’t think I would trade it?
HSP is wonderful
You are blessed with a higher level of perception and empathy.
I have great respect with those with HSP. My cousin has it, and she is one of the most loving amazing people I know.
It is just this world is cruel. It makes those who are blessed feel abnormal.
HSP is a wonderful and positive thing.
AV, don’t change, please! 🙂
The best way to protect your sensitivity is to learn to distance yourself from yourself. Nothing distances you so well, as knowing that everything is just moments, shards in the perspective of a lifetime. And in the perspective of the world, it’s already a supernanocrumb 🙂
I use my sensitivity and Contagion School perfectly in my work. Even Narcissists “trust me” on this level and often reverse their decisions if I feel they have gone too far. Sometimes – despite their stubborn decision – I silently do the task my way – always with a good result. I like to put them in a raging dilemma – punish me for insubordination or reward me for result? Ha ha ha 🙂
Of course, they benefit from it. But… hundreds of other people are also using it.
Of course, they get back at me for their incompetence in this aspect. But… of course I have my “little, dark” pleasure in it too.
Sensitivity is a beautiful flower, that needs to be gently nurtured, not destroyed.
Properly used sensitivity can be very powerful.
Don’t change. Use (you!) what you already have and what is right for you, AV.
Someone wrote that west world underestimates sensitivity. I do not agree.
Just don’t be ashamed of your sensitivity. Why are you ashamed? Show. And don’t be afraid of getting hurt (supernanocrumb). And you will find, that it is highly appreciated.
From my perspective…
Hi Joa! It was me who said that. Western and Eurocentric epistemology for example is based on a “universal third person objectivity” that rejects personal experiences, affects, and emotions as being considered signs of weakness and subjective bias. I disagree but that’s the way the world is now. I am not ashamed of my sensitivity, I am pissed that other people always pick on my passion or my emotional responses. And sometimes they go and relate my emotions to my ethnicity, which makes it even worse! My doctor said I was like Velcro and he wanted me to become Teflon instead. The world is throwing absurd analogies instead of acknowledging what it needs is precisely more sensitive people!
No reason to be concerned, I can’t change who I am. When I speak of changing, it is the reactions, behaviors, thought processes that I speak of. With practice and over time, I have learned to be more logical in my thinking, to go to the evidence instead of worrying, limit time with people who don’t respect me, things like that. I will never not be able to be sensitive. And the two beauty of it is that since being here, I’ve given myself permission to be myself, and now I love to feel (most) things, consider what I’m feeling and really enjoy it. When I was a little girl, I was very sensitive, I remember that, it is so sweet to have that being allowed back out without feeling like I must hide it!
Keeping things in perspective, yes, very important. Thank you.
Thank you for your words of wisdom and encouragement, they mean a lot!
So, just hit me that CPTSD uses the word “disorder”, had not connected that with NPD previously. Not sure what to make of this. Going to look up the definition of “Disorder” as it relates to mental illness.
A disorder is a disturbance of normal functioning which then of course leads to a consideration of what is normal.
So LOCE or abuse, or both can cause the disorders of NPD and being an Empath? Being an empath is a disorder, makes sense because therapists I’ve been to treated my high emotions like they were symptoms of a mental dysfunction.. I was made to feel not normal, not healthy, which I’m not normal, I’m an empath. Being too sensitive is looked at as a dysfunction,, in the psychological field and in some work environments. I know reacting to situations at work in an emotional way is frowned upon, like you’re less than you could be and therefore less desirable for promotion.
Hi Rebecca, my other question is how are those Empaths made that don’t come from a LOCE. We’ve had them here on the blog, it happens. They still have the addiction. So how does it happen.
Which makes you question who is really normal and who dictates what is, as you have pointed out on many occasions. Thank you, HG.
Thank you HG. Please explain then why some disorders can be overcome and some cannot? This was my biggest pushback against it and now I am very confused.
Which disorders can be overcome?
Disorders cannot be overcome? Why am I here then…
Is this dependent on the definition of overcome?
I asked “which disorders can be overcome”?
Oh yes HG, you did ask that. Thank for asking again.
All disorders in which the individual can recognize there is a disorder and decided to take steps to adjust for it can be overcome.
I think this is correct.
Thank you for clarifying.
You’re welcome HG. I hope my answer was correct.
HG, thank you for that also, I have often wondered what is truly “normal”. Because we are all unique individuals, aren’t we all normal for ourselves? It is a lot bigger than that of course but yes, well worth considering.
@HG and AV,
AV, I don’t know how an empath is made, except by LOCE and abuse….Could it be they just learn empathy, they have an empathy gene?? HG, Which is it,or am I wrong in all my guesses?? Xx Good question AV! xx
Empathy is not present due to LOCE, quite the contrary.
The development of empathy is supported by neurological and biological factors and learned via behavior influences (primary caregivers and others). Babies are shown to display empathy as early as 6 months of age. Empathy grows in depth through age 6 if supported and modeled by caregivers or other sources. There are many studies you can read on this topic.
Where there is low or no empathy for others (it is noteworthy that Ns have fully functioning empathy of self), it also involves neurological, biological and behavioral influences. But the influences are not the same. For Ns, there are certain genes present that if ignited by way of LOCE (abuse and the like) express the trait of narcissism (or one might say more accurately, it is the combination of the expressed gene coupled with the necessity of a complete psychological defense). This would take place between the ages of 0-3 and progress on through age 12 and onward to adulthood.
There seems to be a lot of confusion as to why someone does or does not become an empath or narcissist. But consider this, everyone alive has narcissistic traits and empathetic traits (Ns and APD only self empathy). It becomes easier to understand from this perspective.
Your are born with specific genes and physiology. Some studies state personality is formed prior to birth. Genes influence traits. Environment and caregiver attunement influence genetic expression (epigenetics), as well as learned behavior and modeling. Personality influences perceptions and coping skills. As you grow, you are placed in many thousands or perhaps millions of micro moments that influence your experience, memory, perceptions, modeling, coping, etc. These experiences also create or cease to create your neural pathways that greatly affect thoughts and behaviors. It is a confluence of all of the above and more that bring us to be fully who we are.
Thank you for explaining how an empath becomes an empath. If I get it right from what you said, it’s a combination of genetics, learned behavior from those around you, and your experiences…so, D. All the Above. Interesting, so is it fair to say, if someone doesn’t have empathy for others , that it wasn’t taught to them by others, they don’t have the genetics for empathy and their experiences didn’t expose them to empathy early in life.?? Explains my husband and his upbringing with his emotionally not available mother and narc stepdad. I don’t think his parents had the empathy gene either. He didn’t have a chance of learning empathy from them, his environment wasn’t kind either. I’m feeling bad for his lack of decent parents. It explains things. Thank you FYC. Xx
Rebecca, Yes in part. A child needs modeling of empathy. But a child also seeks and requires attunement that would also include mirroring and approval. My guess is for children that develop a N defense, they have GPD and LOCE. The LOCE leads to the rejection of true self and the development of an impenetrable defense of the false self.
As for having N parents, it does not always result in N children. Once HG explained the basis of his defense (GPD + LOCE = NPD) I have looked into this deeply. I am an ACON and I am an empath (HG tested). But it took quite some time to really put all the pieces together. It is complex. I really encourage you to acquire as much of HG’s works as possible. You may not be ready to take it all in (I was not initially) but you will keep referring to his spot on accurate work as you learn more. I am so grateful for HG and KTN. I believe I have the entire collection now, but I have much more to learn. That said, what I have learned here has already helped immeasurably and lead me in directions I never would have imagined. (HG you have my eternal gratitude)
I noticed that during sone of Prince Harry’s interviews for his book, Spare, he said he preferred to use Post Traumatic Stress Injury instead of disorder. Do you have any thoughts as to why he preferred to use injury vs disorder?
Many conditions include the word disorder to indicate that the behaviour or perspective could cause problems. There’s Autism Spectrum Disorder, Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, etc. Many of us might have some traits that correspond to these descriptions but we either experience them
very mildly or have very few of them.
However if we have those behaviours or perspectives more broadly, more often or more strongly we are likely to run into difficulties in our lives (or be identified by others as having problems). The world is generally structured to suit individuals who don’t have these more extreme characteristics so occasionally there will be noticeable and sometimes consequential mismatches. We’d be more likely then to be diagnosed as having a particular disorder.
The word disorder in a formal diagnosis is a little superfluous as if a diagnosis is made it suggests a person is a fair way along on the spectrum. But it does underscore that additional
support could be needed at times which would enable that individual to manage a bit more smoothly and experience fewer mismatches with the world around them and its expectations.
I enjoyed reading your comment and agree. I see diagnosis as something to consider honestly for guidance. Not a sentence.
Thank you Annaamel, I agree. For some reason, before I looked into it more, the idea of a label of disorder placed on Empaths was extremely distasteful, I think because Narcs also have that label, specifically my mother has that label. I have known my entire life that I am not normal, I have not known what the problem was and finding narcsite, and with reassurances from HG that we, I, can change, I rejected that label out of hand yesterday. I have mild OCD, I am able to control it. The urge may be there, but the behavior doesn’t have to happen. I have learned this, just as I am learning that I don’t have to accept abuse, that I can spot red flags and avoid, that my mind was tricked and that I can choose to see through that etc.
I had a hard time accepting that I have an addiction to narcissists. That was also distasteful to me, a long time ago. A friend I was talking to about this yesterday pointed out that addiction is a disorder. Understanding all of this is steps towards realizing and accepting my responsibility for things that have happened to me. I was a victim as a child yet I am not going to allow that to make me a victim on an ongoing basis because of any label. I need to hold on to the knowledge and hope that I can change. That was the main gist of my thoughts about it I think. Thank you for your comment.
I just lost my whole comment again, glitches…so will try again…joy..joy…
Your comment reminded of what my former therapist told me. He said I’m a HSP/SP. I believe AV, AspEmp and I had this conversation of me being a HSP last year and my therapist confirmed it. He also said, I had a little OCD trait showing up as hyper focus on matters that I deem needed fixing or solving. I agreed I do tend to overthink and overfocus on matters that bug me, or need fixing. I was relieved to know I don’t have OCD, but I just have one trait of the disorder. He said, he could tell I had CPTSD and he said that leads me to have triggers that cause my emotions to flare up. I know having CPTSD and being HSP causes problems for me, in regards to handling stress and making tough decisions. I tend to get overwhelmed and emotionally stimulated, when frustrated or angry. I’ve learned to pull myself in, close my eyes and concentrate on breathing and calming my heart rate…think of trees and streams…something calming…it usually works to calm me down. Another thing that works, and I know most on here will agree, is listening to HG’s voice. I often fall sleep listening to HG. Xx
I can function with being a HSP and with CPTSD, I go to work 5 times a week, 40 hours a week and my job requires focus and attention to detail, problem solving skills at times, I just have to maintain balance within my mind, with my emotions and thoughts. It’s difficult at times and I wish I didn’t have CPTSD and sometimes the fact that I’m so sensitive is annoying to me. It makes things harder at times, but it also is a blessing. Music, sounds, beauty, nature, scents, color, touch all is so vivid and so alive to me, I wouldn’t give up that brightness for anything. It’s well worth the bad points. Xx
I don’t think anyone is 100% without something wrong with them, even “normal” people have their hang ups….no one gets through life without scars, be they mental or physical…and isn’t a mental disorder really just mental scars ,usually left from abuse or LOCE?? Xx
AV got me curious…how is it narcs can’t change, but us empaths can?? We both have a form of disorder…what makes one curable and the other stuck?? Xx
Thanks Rebecca, I think you are right.
Rebecca – very similarly – I sometimes have trouble concentrating and controlling my escaping thoughts.
And yet – despite this “defect” 🙂 – no one in my firm is as accurate in details and observant as me (sorry, there is one such person – my “N-friend”, now chief). I would like to add, that I am neither a chief accountant (I hate numbers and money!) nor a lawyer – and yet I check most of the documents of e.g. these departments and I find a lot of errors (the worst – also substantive ones!) and shortcomings. I do this in addition to my own duties – which I also perform almost flawlessly (I rarely make mistakes). I also have a good eye for points in space and the aesthetics of what I do. And my current position – combines 4 positions that used to be. Wow, I guess I need to start admiring myself… or scolding myself for being stupid (depends on what perspective).
The damn thing about being perfect. I keep threatening and shouting, that this was the last time I corrected something after someone else, that I will start not noticing other people’s mistakes and doing everything casually like them – and yet I can’t put my threat into practice because:
1. Errors annoy me.
2. I’m ashamed to let something like this come out of our company.
3. I am conceited (an ugly trait).
And so it goes round 🙂
But yes, I like my job. Although, sometimes I feel like a prisoner and I have a sense of losing my life – I could do so many interesting things if I didn’t have to fill the fridge…
I notice little things at work and outside of work, like details in photos, people’s voice patterns, errors in paperwork and some of my coworkers have noticed my little oddities. I get teased about my attention to little details, get called detective and OCD. Well, I’m no detective, but I do pay attention and tend to hyperfocus. Oh well, no one is perfect, especially me. I trip over flat concrete sometimes and then look to see what I tripped over. 😂
The way you described your emotional burst of energy, in an earlier comment, with your daughter is similar to how I am when I’m excited about something. I just get this burst, from the excited thought, that I can’t contain and it makes others laugh. My laugh is contagious, I can lift their moods, make them feel good, brighten their day, but I can also console someone, make them feel warm, drive away their sadness, give them hope…I’ve been told I do this for people, that I’m a light to them. I’ve been told that on the blog here, at work, in my personal life. I even remember LMRSOMATIC saying to me, I was a light in his life. Funny that MLSOMATIC said that too….anyway, it’s amazing to me that our projected emotions can make others feel good, contagious happiness we share with people, what a gift….no wonder narcs capture us so quickly, with such urgency. They lack happiness and were like a beacon of happiness….most of the time anyway 😂 xx Even our sadness is so rich in color…all those blues and greys…swirling together with the whites of tears. Xx
Sorry, I was painting pictures in my mind again. Xx
Back already, wow, there’s a disorder for just about everything humans do! Do be it, we have a disorder, but it still one that we can grow and change from, the narcissists cannot.
I’m kind of starting to think just going with toxic vs non toxic is the way to go. Or unhealthy vs healthy.
@ A Victor
We humans are gluttons for punishment! We even consume substances we know to be toxic “Just for fun” Look at alcohol consumption for example.
In a way those addicted to narcissists are like alcoholics. It is an addiction as HG has so often said. That cocktail looks so lush and enticing. We know it is bad for us but we want it so bad. Same goes when we are addicted to narcissists. Get out and stay out. No contact is the only way.
Hi Anna, thank you. Yes, I had a hard time with the word addiction when I arrived here also. Going to have to wrap my head around this now also I guess. It does not make me feel victorious in any way, it makes me feel broken and honestly, I hate it.
#1: Will a lot of pure psychopaths fall into the Narcissistic (Not Narcissist) grouping?
#2: Can psychopathy coincide with every sub-school of Narcissist? For example, a Lower Greater Narcissistic Psychopath or a Middle Mid-Range Type A Team Anodyne Narcissistic Psychopath.
The pure psychopaths will not be described as narcissists (although of course they will have strong narcissistic traits) but they are not narcissists.
I noticed your comment to Witch that sociopaths are more obvious, haphazard, hot headed ASPD. Would you say that a sociopath can coincide with a mid range or lesser narcissist?
Yes. As part of my work involving pure narcissists, narcissistic psychopaths/sociopaths and psychopaths/sociopaths I have created a detailed chart which shows the various permutations between these groupings.
That’s wonderful news. Thank you, Mr. Tudor.
Wow, sounds brill 🙂 I look forward to seeing this. OMG, I am so glad I came across KTN site because I can trust the accuracy.
I can’t wait to see your new work! Finally some clarity and accuracy we can count on! Xx
This is very exciting!!
Your work will be unparalleled then.
I cannot wait to see your new work HG. This is very exciting.
Is there a break in your narcissism spectrum, Greater-Lesser, at which you will have psychopathy or sociopathy only or is there a point at which they could overlap? And are all psychopaths aware that they are different or is that only the Greaters?
Maybe I’m jumping the gun and it will be in the chart…so excited to see that!!
Await the work in this regard as it makes it clearer to understand.
Thank you HG.
HG: This puzzles me. A psychopath has no need for fuel so how does he coexist with a narcissist? Unless goals and fuel become one? Two sims same victim. But isn’t that two mindsets in the same body?
The narcissist receives fuel, the psychopath is entertained.
Just getting better and better.
This thread is the best on the blog.
Would a psychopath prefer an empath to a narcissist, or would it not matter to him/her??
Would an empath entertain more or less than the narcissist, or does it not matter?? Xx Thanks!
Either has certain advantages to a psychopath.
Ok, you got me curious now…What would be the advantages of a psychopath choosing an empath versus a narcissist?? Which has more advantages?? You got me curious, now you’ve done hit my “oh, gotta know this!” button😂 xx
More likely to stick around and be a plaything for the psychopath.
Ok, I can see sticking around the empath does, as a good advantage for a psychopath, but what of the advantages of choosing a narcissist for the psychopath??
Thanks for your responses, I appreciate the education. Xx
The fight is entertaining.
I like it when they fight.
Simply answered but do perfectly explained.
Hi Contagious, your observation is interesting. Fuel for power, entertainment for boredom, these are not mutually exclusive. It is interesting though because, in my mind and I’m likely incorrect, psychopaths don’t need power because they don’t fear, they always have power, not even in their minds but it’s intrinsic to them, no question about it. Narcs seem to do all kinds of things I might consider entertaining, if I was a narcissist, yet these may or may not fulfill the boredom needs of the psychopath. I feel like that boredom may be a bit different somehow, like a deeper itch that needs scratching, hence why sadism may come up at times. Is it the psychopathy or the narcissism that likes to see the IPPS scream? It will be interesting to learn more specifics regarding some of this.
I sometimes wonder if psychopathy is actually the natural human state.
Just a theory.
Through the love of our caregivers we learn to love
We learn right and wrong
We develop a strong ego with positive narcissistic traits.
If however we do not feel safe
If we are abused
We learn to do one thing and one thing only
Only through laws and civilisation did we become what we are today. If you look back to the past, especially medieval times. It was common to watch the public execution. To jeer on the executioner. Every village adourned with a gibbot irons with the skeleton of the executed criminal inside. Heads on sticks. Sounds barbaric, but quite common in what they named ironically…”The Dark Ages”….
Some argue humans have become weak in their bubble of running hot water. Imagine a few hours with no internet, no running water, no heating… no supermarkets. You only have to watch a program such as “The walking dead” or “The last of us” to see what happens in end world situation when survival kicks in.
Worth pondering upon before we judge those so harshly.
I don’t see anyone judging anyone here.
That said, there are differences in the brains of psychopaths, it’s scientific that they are different.
Indeed. This forum has a high ratio of empathic people who are kind and do not judge.
As a newborn child your brain looks alot different than when you are a child or an adult. Indeed there are differences in the brain scans of psychopaths. This is the nature and nurture debate. Genetics can make you predisposed to certain things but only if the environment also plays a role.
Ah, were you referring to judgement in the world, not only here on the blog Anna? If so, yes, there is judgement, because there is a lack of understanding and also the traumatizing stories are the ones brought to the fore via news, social media, movies etc.
My understanding in the case of psychopaths is that the nurture is not going to change the nature, they are born that way. The ones with a predisposition are sociopaths, though I’ve heard those two terms used interchangeably also, so who knows.
Yes A Victor, I was referring to judgement in the world.
Hi Anna: From all that I have read. And I detailed a lot of scientific studies, psychopaths are born. End of. No hope. Maybe future brain surgeries? But that’s wild and these folk rise well. I read an article 1 of 3 are CEOs of major corporations so why change? I think a bad environment might heighten their already goal oriented predatory natures. Make it worse. The only thing that stops them is consequences. Jail. Prison. I would have to ask HG if sadism is a cadre. As it seems not all are bloodthirsty. Their goals differ. It must be a mindset. Think of Hitler or Pol Pot versus Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dalmatia. Some want power at any cost some have ummm a fetish of sadistic pleasure. It’s rare but why we know the names as so horrifying and destructive. If their goal was destruction, they did well. Why some call it evil, and not any scientific term. There are nurses who kill babies and celebrities who rape and abuse many. We know the stories. The shooter in Colorado who dressed as the joker carefully plotted the mass shooting in America. He was probably a schizophrenic like others who hear voices to kill. Everyday in the USA there are mass shootings ie Nashville. But the ousting from Congress of the two black representatives who protested is a mild indication that gun laws will ever change in this nation. Never. And I think it’s mostly men who do the mass shootings and my guess is most are psychopaths. I await to learn more from HG. And some like Gacy or Bundy appear normal, fit in. Thank goodness the class of serial killers is rare. But almost everyday there is a mass shouting in USA. Other countries have wars but our killings are regular. Why? There is easy access to guns but as the saying goes do guns kill people or is it people with guns? Why so many here? I imagine HG new series will cover a lot of terrain. Can’t wait
I’ve told HG, on more than one occasion, that I wish I was more like him and less like me. Meaning, I envy his logically thinking, being less emotional, his lack of fear, lack of self doubt and it all sums up to mean he can do tough task without any emotions like fear, emotional thinking and self doubt. I can imagine how much more efficient I’d be without all that holding me down….as it is, I have to do the task with all that extra crap, what a drag….Here we go, come on…let’s get it done, like dragging a corpse sometimes…I’m imagining…haven’t done that in real life.. 😂 xx
Dear Rebecca, you are perfect the way you are. Your emotion makes you beautiful. Stay the way you are. You are one of the lights in this dark world. Learn to love and accept yourself, you will be surprised the happiness and joy you will feel.
Your light will be extinguished if you do not get a grip on yourself and start the process of no contact. You know what you must do, you are just not doing it.
Wise words HG, and as always correct.
I need to do a consultation for NC, I have obligations and responsibilities…how do I walk away from them?? I feel bad paying a bill late, why I pay them early…not paying a bill would make me a nervous wreck…how do I do this?? I know I don’t want to stay, but how do I just walk away from my adult responsibilities?? I feel like I’m going into a tail spin of worry and anxiety.
Hello Rebecca, I know how hard this can be, but if you are certain you want out you have already accomplished a lot.
Have you ever quit a job? This will be similar in a few ways. When you decide to leave a job, you do not say anything, but you begin the process of preparing everything related to your departure.
To name a few, you will make copies of your personal documents and have them stored away from home. You will establish banking and credit in your own name in a different institution (save money in advance if you can). Find a place to live or someone you can stay with until you find a place of your own. If you feel your N may be destructive to things you cherish, remove them stealthfully before you plan to leave. If you have a pet, consider who is the primary care giver (I would guess you). Children are another matter as each area has specific laws so you may want to consult with an attorney in your area or online when you can do so privately.
Unlike quitting a job, it is not necessary to give notice. I strongly advise you obtain HG’s books “Getting Out” and “Escape”. Download these and become familiar with the contents. A consult with HG would be excellent.
To assist with your anxiety, employ some methods to increase your “feel good” hormones. Used deep breathing exercises or meditation or yoga. Spend time in nature (even if your own back yard, but preferably away). Take long showers or a baths or a swim or visit a body of water. Talk back to your fears it diminishes their power. Create a vision of a future you will love and move towards it a little every day.
No matter what he chooses regarding his addiction, it is his decision. Do not let him manipulate you and guilt you into staying. Stay firm. You can do this. I wish you the very best with your future.
Also as to psychopaths they don’t feel the same emotions. They have no concept of “ joy.” Can you imagine?
I can’t imagine this.
Empaths who have codependency should not stay the way they are. They must change. They must keep what’s good for them and discard what is not and that means behaviours and thought patterns as well as people. And they need to become more aware of what ‘good for them’ means. What they instinctively *feel* is good or valuable actually is not.
Anna, when you look at history, remember the problem is that history is written by conquerors and that is the only one perspective that we have. But even if you look at the given historic info you’ll see how many humans were killed by inquisition. There was a proportion of non empathic population created, by selecting and killing off the other.
Also there are huge amounts of stored artifacts which never saw the light of day, because they don’t fit an already established culture/history. Some archeologists will tell you, there are findings locked away and we are not allowed to talk about it. They are silenced.
What we have now are the two kinds, who clearly tick differently. And ticked differently also in the past. Who knows maybe the disproportion was even towards the N’s/psychopaths and there were less empaths. Or maybe not, and it only came to be via cuts out of the empathic population in the past.
The other thing is, the idea of not judging is a doctrine to put our mind to rest. If you don’t judge, someone else will do it for you. See cancel culture, silencing, woke and so on.
You mean probably don’t judge/blame those who were raised in LOCE and had no other choice of becoming who they became. Yes, I agree they had no choice and developed by design of their genes and circumstances. It don’t give them the right though to turn the life of others to hell. They don’t ask, they just do what they do, as the friendly empath/normal is not judging and is so accepting and tolerant.
And yes, there will be differences (in intensity) in their behavior as we learned from the comments here. And positive things they brought were also mentioned..
Idk what to think of all of this and how to align it..
Perhaps I would judge harshly on some things and would not consider any grey area. It depends. Some part of the circumstances I must go along with (for now) and others I can do differently.
Jordyguin, this is very true.
There is actually a good series on Netflix about how they found some of the ruins in South America predate the current thought of evolution and how long humans have lived in civilised society. It is called “Ancient Apocalypse”
Oh yes pass it on, everything ancient, take a seat! But I quitted Netflix years ago.. Maybe I’ll find it else where😘
DNA research is changing that. Consider homosapiens and Neanderthals. The “ gentle shy” Neanderthal was subjected to genocide. The largest percent of killing the world has seen ( again percent wise) in the great open world back then. Yet they coupled. DNA is traced to this day especially in East Asians. It says a lot about mankind.
Neanderthals, indeed! Contagious are you being contagious, reading my thoughts, my mind?😘 Did you know that DNA trace research on the neanderthal genome is also done via the kind of tests the population was subjected to all this past years?! I find it a very strange coincidence. We live in exiting times🥰🦣
Putting some Humanities in the discussion, have you read the novel The Inheritors, by William Golding? You would be surprised. It’s beautiful and it illustrated the genocide you are talking about. The dramatic irony rests on the fact that as readers, we identify with the nice ones, but we are the offsprings of the shitty ones instead. I know this is a bit of a spoiler but like I tell my students: if the work is older than 20 years, it’s not a spoiler. You had plenty of time! Haha. Check it out!
I like your thinking here. Top predators are territorial and practice co operative aggression. The Neanderthals held back the Homosapiens for a considerable period and neither group was passive. The need for aggression stems from hunting grounds so is similar to the concept of modern warfare.
Even in times of peace we fight amongst ourselves! Over time I think we evolved to appear less aggressive. Less obviously predatory, but I that predatory nature just lies dormant until there is a need for it.
I haven’t seen ‘The Last of Us’ but I saw a fair few seasons of ‘The Walking Dead’ and thought it was very accurate in terms of how things would pan out, apart from the zombie part.
In the modern age propaganda has been instrumental in war. The interesting thing though is that propaganda is rooted in emotional manipulation. Psychopaths are immune to emotional manipulation, they spot it a mile away. You can’t manipulate a psychopath, there’s not enough emotion to work with. Propaganda would fail. You can motivate a psychopath, “Do this, get that” but that would be costly. You would essentially have to pay the psychopath to support the cause / convince him that the cause would lead to personal gain. Even then, the psychopath is incapable of trust (oxytocin again) so you’d have your work cut out persuading them into the cause in large numbers. Normals can be manipulated, as of course can empaths, we fall in for free. Makes you think doesn’t it?
Truthseeker6157 it does indeed.
Mercenaries switch sides quickly in a war, they have allegiance to none. It is all about how much they get. If an offer is better then they will switch sides very quickly.
Yep, TS, makes me think..!
Am I correct on: all Greater Narcissists and the Upper Mid-Rangers are psychopaths? (but never the middle/low Mid-Ranger, or Lesser?)
Jordy, my dad was a UMR but not a psychopath, at least from his NDC results. I did not see psychopathic behavior from him either but may not have recognized it. Some UMR’s and even MMR can be psychopaths I believe.
Hi Jordyguin: I think they are different. Different brains. Psychopaths don’t need fuel. All narcs do. This causes me confusion on how someone can be a psychopath and narcissist. HG answered my question saying the psychopathy controls. I look forward to learning more….;)
I’m afraid I can’t answer that.
TS, do you know if the brain of the narcissists and psychopaths looks exactly the same? I mean all the receptor things, wiring and chemicals you mentioned.
I haven’t seen any studies conducted on the brains of narcissists.
There have been various studies carried out on the brains of psychopaths.
The university of Wisconsin conducted a study using two types of images. DTI images showed reduced structural integrity in the white matter fibres connecting the amygdala (responsible for mediating fear and anxiety) and the ventromedial prefrontal cortex (responsible for empathy and emotions such as guilt).
fMRI imaging showed less coordinated activity between the amygdala and ventromedial prefrontal cortex.
Separate studies have proven the mutation / difference in the oxytocin receptor. Oxytocin has been proven to be present but it is not taken up by the psychopathic brain as it would be in a neurotypical brain.
The amygdala and insula are said to be smaller in the psychopathic brain. The anterior insula is responsible for subjective feeling states thought to provide a basis for the ‘self’ or the sentient feeling of ‘selfhood’. Feeling states also play a role in the memory of feelings such as joy, sorrow, pleasure and pain as well as explicit motivation (the conscious desire to engage in behaviours).
The amygdala processes fear and anxiety and is also responsible for the recognition and perception of emotions.
I haven’t seen any studies about the brains of narcissists. That’s not to say they don’t exist, rather that I haven’t seen or searched for them.
Thank you dear TS! This is most interesting! I wonder if the size of the amygdala is rather normal in the brain of a narcissistic psychopath, narcissist. I found a very short reference to neuro imaging in a narcissistic brain, compared to a psychopath’s brain — where the empathy regions were inactive — in the narcissist’s brain apparently there were flashes in the empathy regions referred to as „empathy come and goes“. What we learned from HG — cognitive/false empathy it must be.
Hi Jordyguin, you’re very welcome 🙂 That’s interesting about empathy ‘ come and goes’ I wonder if that might be down to the deterioration of fibres. Emotional empathy was never learned so the fibres deteriorate perhaps through lack of use. The odd flash here and there might make a bit of sense in that context. Things don’t deteriorate at the same rate, the odd flash could be a live or partially functioning fibre that hasn’t fully deteriorated.
Pure speculation on my part obviously, but you would expect similarities in the brains of psychopaths and narcissists, not from birth but in adulthood perhaps.
Yes, psychopaths don’t care that they don’t trust. They may even value it.
Anna, hi! A psychopath is born. A different brain. A different species. Some call them predators. Some say they have the warrior gene. Their brain has been studied. They have a 10% larger Straiathon of neurons in the forebrain. They have a smaller amygdala.There are studies of different eye behaviors. There are studies on hormone differences like OxyContin. They don’t have anxiety or fear. There is no known help to change them. They are who they are. My heart goes out to parents with this child. What I don’t get is how they also become narcs? A psychopath doesn’t need fuel. How can this coexist?
Contagious. Do you mean Oxytocin?
They are human like everyone else. To be honest not enough studies have been done. Some lead normal lives and are excellent in their field of choice. Such as brain surgery for example.
As for narcissism developing. HG has already discussed that many times. It is a defence mechanism against trauma or abuse. If a psychopath is abused then maybe they develop narcissism as a defence mechanism. The dark triad or dark tetrad etc.
Personally Sociopaths in my view are more dangerous as they have the ability to feel if they choose to do so. This gives them the advantage of using empathy to lure their victims in.
We do it today with our fascination with violent tv and games. Even empaths. I watch them. But they aren’t “ real”
Anna: The brain is different in a psychopath. No hope. No cure. Day one. Sad for the parents and child. A child with the narc gene has hope if given the right environment.
Contagious. Indeed. You are correct. Psychopathic brains are wired differently. There is no neural connection between the amygdala and the frontal lobes/prefrontal cortex.
However, people learn to use other brain regions all the time, for example stroke victims or those who have had accidents. Stem cells can also replace and regrow if they are applicated. They regrew organs using stem cells in a laboratory.
Also there is still a nature nurture debate. Animals when they are born can walk, a human infant is defenceless. The neural networks develop between the age of 0-3. This is a very important part of development for a child. If anything happens during this period it can lead to devastating consequences.
Prevention is better than a cure.
I do think in the future that psychopaths will be able to have a cure. We live in a strange world. We have all this technology and yet we humans are still pretty much the same.
They still do not really know much about the different types of ASPD. Including sociopaths. There is still much to learn.
I have read a lot on this. No hope BUT psychopaths have been forced in therapy for criminal convictions and there are attempts to teach them the value of following rules, laws etc… prison, the death sentence is an educator. Even psychopaths can conduct themselves in a way to avoid consequences. They are goal oriented after all and I doubt their goal is to end up in jail.
Perhaps future brain surgeries on the brain will make a “ cure” but to date, there is no hope at all to change their “ personality.” Scary anyway to think about a convicted psychopath being ordered for a brain surgery or brain change. They will never elect for it. There are legal rights. And a parent with a child with psychopathy? Risks? I don’t see it being solved soon. Good to hope but this diagnosis is the worst.
DBT can help with anger issues
Contagious, DBT is not for everybody. It certainly will not work on narcissists. It does not always work for victims of narcissistic abuse, I proved that (therapists “failed” to assist me to ‘seek’ the reasons for my “anger”, “failed” to assist me to ‘resolve’ my traumas), otherwise I would have had no need to to “carry” the repressed pain all my life until finding HG’s work. His work was the only route that worked for me, thus, no need for me to have any DBT, at all. Another source of evidence, if you like, is Prince Harry, he’s “had” therapy (as he stated on TV, he “had” anger management therapy) and can you honestly suggest that it worked for him? For many people, the “source” of anger is as a result of narcissistic abuse and DBT may not be the answer, HG’s work is.
This post about psychopathy is fascinating. Thank you for writing it, HG, and describing yourself in detail.
When thinking about HG’s psychopathy in a detached way, it makes me curious. I have questions and want to delve deeper into the hows and whys of psychopathy. As long as I can be a ‘truthseeker’ from a distance, I do not find it frightening, but rather like a mystery to solve.
For instance, one question I have concerns the word ‘psychopath’. I think the word has become loaded with implications of terror and it sparks an almost irrational fear as soon as it’s mentioned. I think this is because it is often associated with serial killers and rapists, or people who commit horrific crimes, or the monsters and villains in movies and books. While such criminals are psychopaths, I think the serial murderers, rapists, cannibals and dictators, etc, probably account for a fairly small proportion of all psychopaths.
This doesn’t mean the non-criminal psychopaths are harmless. They are destructive and manipulative too, and in other ways, but the terror-factor of the word ‘psychopath’ causes a kind of blockage in people’s general understanding, or willingness to understand, what a psychopath actually is.
In your own personal case, HG, do you believe that society’s fear around the word ‘psychopath’ is justified or appropriate?
Another factor I find curious is why boredom/ennui leads to a need to prey on and feast on other people. Why does that cause/effect exist?
For example, non-psychopathic people also get bored and also feel ennui at times. There are times when I have felt bored or haven’t felt motivated or would rather procrastinate or can’t be bothered, etc. At those times, I consider doing something else to change my mood and eliminate the boredom. For instance, I may go for a walk, or read something, or begin an activity to occupy myself, or call someone for a chat, or do a puzzle, or write on a blog, etc.
It has never occurred to me to eliminate the boredom by being a predator or feasting on another person. Feeling bored or unmotivated has never even made me want to manipulate anyone or do anything to hurt someone or something else ‘just to see what happens’.
So what is the causal factor in a psychopath’s mind that creates that need to be a predator when feeling boredom, ennui or a sense of emptiness? It seems to me that it’s more than a lack of empathy or having no conscience or impulse control. It sounds to me like a need to punish another living thing or to destroy just for the sake of proving they can. It’s like an appetite for dissent or conflict or chaos.
While reading this post, at the point when HG described his disgust at the tedium of listening to someone’s dull existence, there is something in that reaction that I can almost relate to. I don’t feel the same kind of disgust or have fantasies about how to make someone scream or how to hurt them. The part I can relate to is a dislike of small talk or superficial conversations that seem pointless.
I understand that small talk is valuable in building a rapport and communicating without being intense or overly serious. I recognise the need to keep things light and positive, but these kinds of conversations seem a little fake and meaningless to me.
In literature about highly sensitive people, I have read that HSPs don’t really enjoy superficial, fake-positive small talk. I know that I don’t find it very edifying. I would rather contemplate something in greater depth and with more honesty. HSPs have a knack for sensing when someone is lying or being fake, and listening to small talk tends to highlight the lies or pretense or hypocrisy and that becomes irritating after a while.
But again, the irritation doesn’t lead to a sense of deep disgust. I understand why the small talk is necessary and I also empathise with what people are saying. I don’t fantasise about making someone scream or want to hurt them. That doesn’t occur to me. It’s the tedium and superficiality that I find boring and generally repetitive and uninteresting.
The emptiness at the core of HG’s description of psychopathy, and the actions that manifest because of that emptiness – I think these things are fascinating, but only from a distance.
Thanks again for describing your thoughts and experiences, HG.
When I think of narcissistic psychopath I think Yuval Noah Harari. I saw the dead eyes and the rictus grin when he describes his ideal future for humanity.
Did I meet a psychopath last night?
So my German Shepherd starts going crazy at 11 pm. When I look outside I see a kid (around 13-14) standing against the corner of my window next to my car. When I see him – he shakes his head but stays where he is.
I go out to see what is going on – why is a kid out at this time of night anyway? My dog is not going to shut up while he is there. He says he is hiding because a large dog was chasing him. No sign of the dog – but what confused me was the lack of nerves I would expect to feel from him (contagion). He was friendly, easy-going and relaxed. Likable even. His story seemed plausible except for the lack of emotion towards something which should be scary.
I for once (something seemed off) put the padlock on the 7ft gate and this morning I found the gate bent where someone had tried to enter – there was a crowbar near it.
The thing is – after getting caught already by me – would he not fear I would know who was responsible? Very strange – or coincidence?
He’s a right little shit and I would be very concerned. He’s a bad egg and definitely up to no good. At that age he knows what’s he’s doing, also why is he out that late at night ? Again, where are the parents ?
The other day here in Australia, three girls aged 12, 13 and 14 “tortured” another 13 year old girl for four hours by beating and stabbing her for kicks. They stomped on her head and hit her with vapes n knives, They filmed and downloaded it all. Her face was swollen and unrecognisable. They all said they did it for fun.
They apprehended these 3 little psychos but being so young, probably nothing’s going to happen except a slap on the wrist.
“What we have here, is a failure to communicate” (quote from movie Cool Hand Luke)
Heaven help us !!!
I hope you reported it to the police and thankfully your wonderful dog alerted you. What a good boy/girl.
We need more Judge Judy’s.
Stay safe Enthralled, I’d be looking into CCTV.
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Thanks Bubbles, been locking up tight since 🙂
CCTV could be what I need, but you are correct in your questions – why would you allow your child to be out at that time of night? Defies logic – I would be worried about them getting hurt – or something happening to them.
I too have been reading of more and more stories about young people being violent towards others. Used to be such cases were few and shocking – still shocking but becoming more common place sadly…
Enthralled, look after yourself and make sure to keep your doors, windows and gates locked and as Bubbles says get CCTV. If this young guy is what you think he is, he could develop, or have a fascination with you particularly if you are an empath, whether you know him or not, it doesn’t matter. Unfortunately, if he does have a fascination, this generally will turn to wanting to hurt you for his own fun. I have had something similar to deal with. But don’t let it get to you. Look after yourself Enthralled and keep the gates and doors locked.
We had a situation many many years ago where this kid vandalised my car on more than one occasion…..for fun. We found out who it was and the police went to his house where he and his parents pleaded for us not to press charges as he was about to start an apprenticeship. He lived in one of the top elite suburbs and his parents were professionals.
I said to the police, if he stops this vandalism immediately, I’ll drop the charges so he can pursue his career otherwise he would’ve had a criminal record and his life would’ve spiralled downwards. It made the the local paper and everything.
Never heard another peep! Thankfully!
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
I read there have been over 80 mass killings in the USA since 2023. I assume many are psychopaths . HG any idea if psychopaths killing others is on the rise and why? USA gun laws factor of course.
There are a variety of factors which contribute to mass killings and many of those factors are nothing to do with psychopathy.
I’m very confused, which isn’t surprising, lol. There’s so much misinformation and differing terminologies that people will use interchangeably. Such as psychopath vs sociopath. Do you believe that psychopath and sociopath are interchangeable or are they two different classifications that fall under the umbrella of anti-social personality disorder?
It is not surprising that you are confused, because many people used sociopathy and psychopathy interchangeably although that should not be done. There are also those who state that sociopathy is the unofficial term for APD and state that psychopathy is not a diagnosis and is not APD, which confuses people all the more.
To add to the confusion, there are those that state that APD is on a spectrum and therefore somebody can have APD but not be a psychopath, that psychopathy is an extreme form of ASPD. I do not like the spectrum concept as it confuses people (same as when it is used with narcissism).
Everybody has narcissistic traits, but only certain people have NPD and are a narcissist. Once a narcissist you have different sub schools but none is “more of a narcissist” than another.
Not everybody has anti social traits, some people have anti social traits but do not have ASPD.
I distinguish between simply have traits and not the disorder and those that have the disorder. I would also, for simplicity, state that if someone has ASPD there are either a sociopath or psychopath and do away with the suggestion that someone has ASPD but they have it less than someone else who is a psychopath as I find that confuses people.
Thank you for your detailed response, Mr. Tudor. This is extremely helpful.
This makes a lot of sense, it’s either/or, or neither, no ADPD spectrum. HG, in reference to this answer and your answer to Witch that sociopaths are the more loose cannon, less evolved ones, do you believe that both are born with it? Or that psychopaths are born that way and sociopaths evolve from an LOCE? I did see that you also believe that psychopaths are affected by their environment growing up, will this make them become a sociopath or is that not connected? Maybe already answered if one is born a psychopath and the sociopath is not.
Psychopaths are governed by genetics with their upbringing “flavouring” the behaviours but not creating them. Sociopaths are a product of their environment.
Thank you HG! This is what I thought, I appreciate the confirmation very much!
Don’t sociopaths still have a genetic predisposition? Otherwise what happened to the genes for empathy?
You’re on fire today! Thank you for all of these responses!
This is correct.
Sociopaths can also unlike psychopaths feel emotions if they choose to do so. They can turn them on and off. Psychopaths are like ice, sociopaths are like fire.
I swear if you stay in a relationship with a psychopath or narcissist long enough there is a danger of becoming a sociopath? Is this correct HG?
Hence the light being snuffed out. Long term emotional numbing is not good. So get out and stay out. Go no contact!
This is an odd question but our court appointed psychiatrist was interested about my ex husbands treatment of animals. This I get but also bed wetting. There is some link with pschopaths and bed wetting as children. Know of this? If so, what is the link?
HG, thank you for your time in explaining here. It’s very interesting and it does clarify (makes it easier to understand it from how you have worded it). Put simply, either someone is on the spectrum, or they are not – whichever one it is, determined by the traits, which may, or may not result in a combination of more than one “category” (ie narcissistic psychopath).
I’m still confused
Right now I’m the “why are you gay?” meme
I’m “the puppies and butterflies”. It lands on the tip of my nose and is off again.
I saw that veeeerrrrrry long interview ages ago…. hilarious 🤣
Now for some pasta 😂
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
I’m sure the Pastor is a narc but he’s so unintentionally funny
There’s another video of him where he says he watched gay porn to find out what gay men get up to.. strictly for research purposes (yeah right!)
And he was talking about fisting and he said
“and if that isn’t bad enough… then they put their arm DDDEEEPPPEER!!” 🤣🤣
Killed me off
Typical religious rambling opinionated fruitcake, who loves to hear his own voice, definitely a narc. That’s why we find him funny cos we’re laughing AT him and all his ridiculousness.
I’ll have to search that video, just for shits n giggles 🤭
Thanks Witch 😁
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Thank you HG! I have used the term spectrum because psychopaths and sociopaths and ASPD seem to differ. All have no conscience. Some kill. Almost all commit crimes. All have no regard for laws, norms and rules but some go farther than others in violating them. Maybe the goals differ? I get that not all want to kill but after that it gets murky. Also I don’t get how narcs interplay? Narcs need fuel. Pschopaths just want what they want. How can they coexist? And if born a psychopath why would nature make you a narc too? So much to learn from you!
HG: I think the confusion is people associate psychopaths with serial killers such as Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dalmer because of tv. Antisocial is associated with criminals. Psychopathy involves manipulation, and deceit and no empathy but I think you would agree not all are blood thirsty killers. Most jails are filled with those diagnosed with antisocials or rule breakers. I referred to a spectrum because of these two differences. But I am now corrected. Perhaps sadists or those that enjoy control associated with pain is a category versus your common thief? I have read about the brain differences between narcs and psychopaths. Both are DSM personality disorders involving lack of empathy. The motive is different as is the brain structure. You stated I think that your psychopathy controls. Is that true of every narcissistic psychopath?
Films, book and television are there to entertain and to tell stories and therefore there is invariably artistic licence which, as you point out, does cause confusion as people fail to realise it is fiction to fiction based on a few facts.
It would depend which is the more dominant aspect of the hybrid, with me, it is my psychopathy.
That’s why I don’t like the word psychopath, people tend to assume that person is a crazy killer, when usually they’re neither one. More education needs to be put out in schools about psychopaths, sociopaths and narcissism. Maybe then, the assumption would stop, or at least lessen. Hopefully more of your work will be shared, especially the new work on psychopathy you’ll be sharing soon. Xx
“That’s why I don’t like the word psychopath, people tend to assume that person is a crazy killer, when usually they’re neither one. More education needs to be put out in schools about psychopaths, sociopaths and narcissism.”
Not a bad idea (but would be interesting in the actual implementation – since many adults, themselves, have trouble wrapping their minds around the distinctions between those designations.)
School yards are a breeding ground for misinformation – and children’s animated movies are just as bad (even though they often offer teaching moments as a result) – specifically with the latter, terms like “psycho”, “psychopath” are thrown around carelessly – and I have noted the term “narcissist” popping up more in kid’s movies.
I’ve been called psycho, psycho girl and crazy, and I’m neither one of them. I’m called that because I have Geyser emotions, I’m a HSP and react strongly, emotionally…I tend to erupt when pushed too far, though now that I’m an adult, my fuse is longer and harder to ignite….that and I’m a redhead, with Irish blood, so people just expect it of me….a bit of stereotyping that fits me, somewhat….xx
No, you’re none of those things.
I have an rl empath friend who reacts much more emotionally than me – she has Geyser qualities, so it makes sense. I understand the intensity of the emotional sensations and the need for them to be expressed.
When she is feeling something strongly and needs to vent, sometimes I have to check myself and not offer solutions etc., because what she needs at that moment is just the space to vent at someone who “get’s it.” And once she gets it off her chest – she’s much better.
I feel better too, once I vent I can calm down, but I need to let it out, otherwise the feeling just gets bigger and then I want to scream. I don’t like getting to that point, that usually happens when I try to push down my strong feelings and it just backfires on me….if I don’t vent. I usually vent by bitching on a rant, one of my friend’s at work, enjoys my expressions, when I’m pissed. She says, I’m very animated and the one expression makes her laugh, my face gets red and my eyes seem to light up….she tells me. 😂 HG, hasn’t seen that side of me. 😂 I have some triggers, I might tell HG what they are….I’m sure HG knows already 😂 xx Anyway, Geyser emotions can be very annoying when I’m trying to get a work project done and the dumb machine wants to act up and not function, so I get madder and madder at it, and finally I have to walk away and vent, before I scream and break it. I’ve learned to walk away, to keep from screaming like an idiot and breaking things…these preventive measures are better than the consequences of acting like a crazed idiot….it’s what I feel like when my emotions carry me off and away…I don’t like it. Xx
I rarely get that angry (I am more likely to stuff my emotions) but sometimes it does build up…when I was still with my ex, I could always channel my anger into chopping wood. (Can’t do that now! Miss it actually. The chopping wood part – not the ex, or the anger.)
The only other time I have felt that angry was post-escape and (I thought the level of anger was due to having to review a gigantic box of past documents for legal purposes etc., and my ex launching an appeal at the time) but no – it turned out that I was living in close quarters with ANOTHER narcissist. (Didn’t figure out that one until during the pandemic.) And, I actually recall posting here about my anger and fellow commenters other insight and suggestions…but, you know what – it’s amazing how much of your anger resolves itself when you’re not physically around narcissists on a regular basis.
Rebecca, I can understand and appreciate what you say in your comment here. It sounds similar to how I used to ‘react’ when I was younger. It is good that you are aware of how some triggers at work can increase your ET and that you walk away at times. Do you have one of HG’s audio files on your phone so that you can listen for a few minutes, if needed (use like a ‘time out’)? Some people say that listening to HG’s voice helps in moments of ET gone “AWOL” if you like. It does take time to learn yourself to retrain your mind to respond differently. There will always be some kind of trigger, external stressor that you may not always be able to control, or prevent, from happening. I do realise how much you have been through and can understand. I am still around here and I do read your comments. Keep putting yourself back on the path, you’ll achieve what you are aiming for 🙂 X
@WhoCares and AspEmp,
Thank you both for accepting my angry side and for making me feel normal.
After coming here, on the blog and reading HG’s articles, I was concerned about my anger outburst and thought they could be narc fury. HG assured me that an empath may show some similar behaviors as a narc, but the reasons behind the behaviors are different. It took me a while to accept I wasn’t a narc. Mainly because, when I was a kid and I’d have angry outbursts, my mother would tell me that there was something seriously wrong with me and then had all these mental test done on me, like the one where you look at blobs of ink on a paper and they ask you what you see. That one looks like a splattered bug on a windshield…that one looks like lungs….I came back very imaginative, a bit high strung, very high comprehension and a bit emotional, but no serious problems. I swear my mother was disappointed at my results. She thought for sure I was defective in some way. No, I just have a miserable asshole for a mother.
Anyway, you both make me feel accepted and in whole, most of the people on the blog make me feel accepted. I know I’ve said it before, but I’m glad I found this blog, this website and HG’s work! Xx Seriously, made a difference in my life. Xx
Rebecca, thank you for your response. Maternal narcissist and that Lesser used similar words to me, the ‘put’ downs, at a moment of asserting control, maybe because it was a moment of threatening their control? Yes, maybe the ‘tests’ done as a child are quite usual, for all children, not just the ones that were “perceived” to be “difficult”? Good to read what you have to say about finding KTN and how it has helped you 🙂
Rebecca, if I remember correctly, we have a similar percentage of Geyser.
You’re not alone. There are plenty of us. Don’t worry about it so much.
Narcissists love outbursts. Just look into their sparkling eyes at that time.
Sometimes you also have to shake the atmosphere to create the wind and start the movement.
Normal people understand. It happens to them too.
Empaths – the most calm, sensitive, quiet and submissive – well, they have to get used to it. Each of us processes data differently.
When I support you and when I defend you, you will see that my outburst can be very useful for you and can solve a lot – or at least redirect attention.
Often, a second after a bunch of curses, I smile widely and say looking someone in the eye, for example: “Sorry, but I felt better right away. Whew. I wanted to throw this laptop out the window, but I controlled myself.”
It annoys me, when electronic equipment is slower than me. And almost everyone is, when I’m in a hurry or feel the need to do several things at once, now, immediately and now! 🙂
My friends don’t mind my outbursts. Some people think it is “cute”. Freaks! 🙂
But yes, there are outbursts that make me ashamed. I apologize to you with sadness and a sincere heart, even a lament. I will scourge myself and repent for weeks or months if you are innocent and I have directed my rage at you.
It helps to talk to someone, who understands you. Sometimes it’s enough to say what happened in one sentence and look them in the eye. Relief.
My best friend says: “I absolve you” 🙂
And sometimes, when I explain that I want to do something, that I feel I shouldn’t, she says: “Okay, you have my permission” 🙂
Ha ha ha 🙂
@Joa, WhoCares and AspEmp,
I’m 25% Geyser, 25% Carrier and 50% Savior.
55% Standard, 27% Codependent and 18% Contagion. I’m a mutt 😂 Ruff life. 😂 Sorry, I’m a goof. I’ve had people think it’s cute too , when I get annoyed at technical things not working right. I’ll fuss at it, like it cares it’s annoying me and is purposely not working for me. If I can’t get it to work, after trying for a while, the cussing starts. I’m not loud at first, I whisper to it in an angry tone at first, like I’ll say, “You little shit, I got too much to do for you to go and stop working, you little shit.” I usually get laughs and giggles from co workers. I’ll look up and smile st them and say, “sorry having a motivational speech with the printer here, before the sledgehammer comes out. Anyone seen my sledgehammer, I’ll get us a new printer.” I hear them laughing and I see them shake their heads. I usually get it working, without having to show it my little friend. 😂
For whatever reason, me cussing at a machine or technical device makes some people laugh, or when I get mad, some people will laugh. I told HG once that I’m like a chiwauwau when mad, all fierceness in a little package. 😂 My best friend gets a kick out of watching me have a fit, she cracks up and her eyes tear. We used to work at a bank together and I was in charge of settling the atm and the Main Vault. I’d forget to add a box of quarters or the new shipment, it wouldn’t add up right, so I’d have to go and recheck the count and I’d cuss at myself in the back room, while I was recounting. I’d find my error and cuss again, all mad at myself for making an error. I’d vent and calm down. Yeah, definitely Geyser here 😂 I’m glad yall understand me and at least my annoyance is humorous to some. 😂
@WhoCares and AspEmp,
I wish I was one of those calm empaths, but no I’m high strung and explode with all my emotions. When I’m comfortable with someone and can release myself fully…I laugh loudly, when I laugh it makes others laugh…I have a weird laugh, sounds like a dolphin on helium at times, sometimes Woody Woodpecker…different laughs for how funny something is to me…I even have a giggle that sounds like a villan giggle off a cartoon. I love to laugh and make others laugh. It makes me happy, to see others happy. I feel aglow when I’m happy, like I could just shot up in the air, my heart feels like it has wings and it wants to fly upwards…I feel like my feet are off the ground and I can’t stop smiling…I feel the happiness just glowing from my heart outwards…my laughter comes out and I feel like light. The emotion is so strong, the bad thing about being a Geyser is sadness and pain is just as strong and it’s like the devil himself is drowning me in my own misery and heartache. When I’m sad, my heart feels heavy and it hurts to breathe and I cry and cry. I hate that. Makes me feel weak, less than zero and I feel shame because it makes others sad, or like my mother, she would get angry and annoyed. I’d rather be less emotional at times, but I think my emotions allows me to get more out of life, otherwise it would be more boring to me. Maybe that’s why narcs feed off our emotions, they don’t have as many, so life is boring, so they need us to living it up a bit. I could be wrong, just a thought. If I’m right, it’s no wonder I have long relationships with narcs.
and for me: 37% Geyser, 32% Carrier and 31% Savior.
52% Codependent, 33% Contagion and 15% Super.
I’m writing from memory, but if I’m wrong, the fluctuations are up to 1%.
So according to the nomenclature here, I’m a hybrid.
I prefer the term – that I am a mongrel 🙂 Mongrels are the best, faithful and full of surprises! I always adopt only mongrels – the poorest, the most “extinguished” (without hope) and the most aggressive. I like to watch them “bloom” beautifully, start to trust, feel joy and show all their potential 🙂
Just like with people…
Of course! I also always say that electronic devices do this to me on purpose! 🙂 Sometimes I also stroke or gently pat an object and ask it nicely to make it work 🙂 I call some object by name. Just like my car – which I also talk to sometimes 🙂
Digression: I wrote somewhere earlier, that I feel integrated to the car while driving. You replied that you were also becoming part of the car. Yes, that’s the feeling, but I have to correct it – that’s car becomes a part of me 🙂 After all, I’m holding the wheel 🙂
Ha ha ha, “having a motivational speech with the printer here” -made me laugh a lot 🙂
Well, unfortunately, I don’t resemble a chihuahua – more like a knee-length mongrel 🙂 Sometimes there is an unwanted part of howling ancestors, but fortunately I rarely let myself off the leash. Rarely does anyone get to see it.
Oh yes! Bugs annoy me! Also my own. I’m afraid that someday I’ll be one of those muttering old ladies, who are bothered by mess, noise and a scruffy neighbor 🙂 Oh, nooooo…
Although it’s a better variant than my mom, who is constantly filing some lawsuits and not letting go of the fight mode, ha ha ha 🙂 And she involved me in it for years.
Yes, I would also like to have more calm within myself. I’m definitely getting that as I get older. On the other hand… how boring. Sometimes things just have to happen 🙂
I also sometimes laugh out loud, and when I speak clearly – I can be heard within 50 meters, ha ha ha 🙂 I can also speak quietly and gently like a mouse – although less and less the older I get.
Ha ha ha, “I even have a giggle that sounds like a villan giggle off a cartoon” – you made me laugh again 🙂
Yes, making others happy is my life’s goal. There is nothing to cheat about. Only then do I feel so good. It’s a very selfish goal 🙂
You have beautifully described the feeling of happiness Rebecca, I couldn’t have expressed it better. It’s the same with me. I am a radiant ball of happiness and I infect everyone around me. I’m flying… yes. Very high.
Sadness is my proper inner setting. It is here that I feel calm, harmony, silence, I am myself. I don’t cry – I lost this ability about 18 years ago. Sometimes I wish I could, but I can’t. Maybe because I love sadness now?
No – my sadness is not emotional. He is calm, understanding and tolerant. I like staying in this place.
Pain – it’s pushy and very compassionate. It’s cower my heart. I can no longer feel it towards myself (a long time ago I felt hurt – now only satisfaction or rage). I only feel the pain of others. It is as if all the suffering in the world was flowing towards me. I have to cut it off or I’ll die. My sister is sometimes on the verge of going crazy with this kind of pain – she can’t cut it off at some point. In fact, I am the only person, who can ease her contagious pain and redirect her attention to goodness and beauty. I do not know another person so sensitive and emotionally not adapted to life… And yet she is a wonderful mother of 4 children and an excellent wife. She was an outstanding and dedicated worker until she was taken over and isolated in her home…
When I read about your remorse for making someone sad, I remembered, when my daughter was about 9 years old. She got on the elevator and went downstairs, she didn’t wait for me. As a joke, I pressed my face against the glass in the elevator door and made a sad face, as if it was goodbye. I waited for the elevator and rode down with a smile on my face, wanting to continue this wistful scene and hold her as if we hadn’t seen each other in a year. It amused me a lot. I found my daughter sitting on the stairs, crying and distraught. I didn’t understand what happened. She couldn’t calm down for a long time, and finally she hit me and screamed: “Never make a sad face again!!!”. And I never did. I was horrified at how powerfully and terribly it affected her. I’m 99% sure her reaction would be different now – she would be laughing along with me. Thank you for reminding me. I will test my daughter, when I get a chance 😊 It’s great to watch her mature.
I can’t advise you, Rebecca, on how to ease this feeling of weakness and shame. I would gladly take over your sadness and even this shame. I’d brush it off like dust off my clothes. YOU HAVE THE RIGHT to be sad – whenever you want. YOU HAVE THE RIGHT to lie curled up and feel sorry for yourself – whenever you want. YOU HAVE THE RIGHT to be in a worse condition, sad, frustrated or angry – it’s nothing, you will bloom again anyway 😊
Maybe, like me, someday you’ll like this place. There you will find peace and strength to soar joyfully up again.
These were some of the most beautiful and touching thoughts I’ve read here, Rebecca. Thank you for opening your heart.
Narcs must be entertained by me at work then because I’m usually laughing outload, saying smart comical remarks or venting throughout my shift. 😂 I’m rarely not animated in some way. My coworkers, the ones I work close to, tell me they can hear my laugh from the other side of the building and I brighten the room with my warm greetings and smile. It’s funny, but I don’t see myself like that, I don’t think I’m loud and radiating with warmth, but apparently it’s how they see me. It makes me feel good and makes me think, mother, you were wrong about me, some people do like me and find me worth while.
😂 Joa, mutts are my favorite breed! It’s all I had growing up! I’ll never forget my childhood dog, he’ll always have a place in my heart and mind. He was a mix between a black lab and a dachund, if you can imagine a short legged, long back lab. 😂 He was adorable and the most protective and brave dog I ever had. Xx I still miss him. We picked him out at a pound, he was the runt of the litter. I was 6 and he passed away, when I was about 20. The current dog I have now is a mutt. He’s a mix of Jack Russell and Shiba Inu. He’s a character! He’s very emotional and I picked him out of the litter because he was the grumpy one, I love grumpy puppies, their grumpy adorable. 😂 Anyway, before I make HG more nauseous…. 😂 I see myself as a mutt empath too. Mongrel as you call it…..I see all my schools and cadres in me, especially the Geyser emotions and my Savior tendencies of rescuing animals and people. I like my mix, it’s me. Xx
Hi Contagious, do we know for sure that psychopathy involves manipulation? Is that true in all cases? No empathy I see but manipulation doesn’t make sense, they do what they do, get in their way they’ll move you out of their way, but manipulation doesn’t fit into that in my mind for some reason.
Personally, I draw the line between malign and scheming narcissists and kinda harmless narcissists. And amongst lower classes those that are physically violent.
Yes, it is maddening, the lack of clarity,… education on this would have made my life a lot easier. My brother in law has antisocial personality disorder, but he is neither sociopath nor psychopath. My parents are narcissists, but not psychopaths. Just annoying and not malign.
I have a friend who might be narcissistic, but he truly wants to appear as the best person possible and there is absolutely no malice.
This cannot be said my ex narc.
I know the psychopath look well, it is different from the empty look on pure narcissists’ faces.
Dear Mr Tudor,
Speaking of predators, looks like Tik Tok is about to be flicked ……why am I not surprised ?
That can only be good news for the planet’s IQ.
You’re talking my language 😜 haha
Ps why do I find it weird you’re here now., posting as we type haha
Picture this, Mr Tudor coming out of the closet and having one on one paid face consultations ……. whoa !!! Epic !!! Cha Ching cha Ching 💰
Why am I laughing 😂
Very much agree.
Here are some film characters who I suspect are Psychopaths. All terrific performances by the way.
1. Buffalo Bill – The Silence of the Lambs
2. Harlen Maguire (Also Sadist) – Road to Perdition
3. John Fitzgerald – The Revenant
Contagious, your son, the marines – ❤️🔥
Soldiers, the idea they represent and those who live it – a worrier for justice, a protector, their strength!
It’s what they must do – as with the regimes and the nazi for example, how it was mixed up. The soldiers must obey a leader even if they may understand the path this leader is taking, is wrong. Todays wars, the same problem right? Is there an active leader who is more just than the other? How do you determine it, if pre election promises are made and after not fulfilled, or the exact opposite is occurring. There must be sort of regulation in this case, which is not there and they are given the free ride of continuing. What must we really look at when we electing leaders if what we shown is a facade?
Hi Jordyguin: our military is funny. Our top leaders refused to be Trumps national guard. Told him to go to the national guard. Got fired. I come from a family of military. I think when electing: we need them badly. Membership is down. That’s not good when you consider China is rising as a military leader. This is a country where 1/3 of its citizens are in education camps. Children too. Human rights are zero. Privacy is zero. Don’t get me started on how they treat their animals. But as my one friend said why would you eat a bat, a rat, etc… very hungry. They have great poverty outside the cities. My file clerks husband goes to factories each year. Smog is so bad you can’t see 10 feet. ( ok LA was like that in the 70s). Good luck finding a toilet. I am told China is the next great threat. We need our military. Vote for those who support it. Whatever waste you think exists, imagine if the USA loses its status. We need them. I can tell you the boots on the ground work hard and are trained like no other. They are put through war simulations, trained until their feet bleed and must be proper in society. And educated at a desk on a number of things, languages needed for a new culture. My son is 8 years in. The media does not always get it right. When in Iraq, my son said the people were poor and good people. People aren’t a government.
Dani, reflecting on your question further, I gotta be honest with you and myself. Alexander the Great is my „weak point“. I adored him as a teen – I draw his portrait based on the statue which was found in 1886 near the Erechtheion on the Acropolis. I taped the portrait in the middle of one of the walls in my room and would stick more and more pieces of paper to it, expanding the drawing along the wall, portraying him and his sister Cleopatra, in the temple where he received his education from Aristotle and others, until it became a huge wall-drawing on one side of my room – I would have staring contests with it thinking about leaders, warriors, wars and history. I called this drawing „The moment of foreseeing“ – where he foresaw his destiny, his future.
Now being older I ask myself what is the cost for greatness? And is there a way of living brilliance and power without the destruction of the innocent and the nature? Where and in what form does the destruction (inhumane structuring of the society) begin and where are the empaths taken on board of the snowballing of the massacre and how can they prevent themselves from stepping in that machinery and performing what is against their nature?
I know I must always look at myself first and be consequent about my findings and the results I choose to act upon.
What do you think is the cost for greatness??
*😒weak spot not point🙄
Even with things as seemingly innocent as Hollywood, music, gaming etc, all do strongly influenced by narcs and that thinking seeps into our minds as normals and empaths. So much damage done, on so many levels.
Nothing innocent about Hollywood
I know. The evil brought to our world by narcissists is immeasurable.
A Victor, you are so right, but the evil brought by psychopaths is even worse than that brought from the narcissist.
You may be correct.
I agree with you, HG. The story of the Black Dahlia comes to my mind about Hollywood and what can happen there. I watched a movie and a documentary on her, around Halloween time last year. Hollywood isnt as it portrays itself to be, all the glitz and glamor is just surface deep. The murder, jealousy, greed and envy go much deeper and more real, not to mention all the inappropriate treatment of children, like Shirley Temple and Corey Haim. The Me Too movement also brought into light, the treatment of some adult actresses and actors in Hollywood. It makes me grateful for my stagefright and having no desire to be a performer in Hollywood. I feel bad for those who got bit by the Fame bug and jumped in that moesh pit, just to be chewed up and spit out.
As a teenager, I read two parts of “Hollywood Wives” by Jackie Collins. It wasn’t high-end literature, but it had something “attractive” about it and it effectively disgusted me described lifestyle.
It’s not show family. It’s show business.
Hi Contagious and Joa,
You’re right, Contagious, but it’s a dirty, backstabbing business…one some people don’t survive to tell their story.
I was surprised about Hollywood from the Me Too movement and I understand how a novel can turn your stomach to the realities of Hollywood and the lifestyles there. I have a friend, who moved from California, and she said, it has beautiful weather, but it’s hell on Earth, if you don’t have the big money. She hated it there, the crime, the people struggling, she said, it was worse there. I haven’t been to California myself, so I can’t give my personal opinion about living there, or even visiting there.
Rebecca: 1 out of 10 live in California. It’s the 5th GNP in the world. We have Hollywood, tech, farm, etc… it’s a big state or country with problems like any other. Hollywood is not like other manufacturers it’s an insecure business that rides on consumer tastes filled with nepotism, unions ( btw writer strike coming) and highs and lows but it’s big risky business. No one smart puts their own money in a film in Hollywood. And banking on winners is key. The internet has changed things for film and music so it is changing slowly and the Métoo movement help d end the casting couch but no doubt it still goes on sadly.
Dearest A Victor,
Totally AV …..excellent comment !
My perception of “Hollywood” and those in it has changed immensely. I don’t have time for any of them…. except one, Keanu Reeves hehe. I was however, very amused by Hugh Grant ….good show ! Thanks Mr Tudor for your follow up video.
I watched a video by Candace Owens talking about the Narcissistic Kardashian Cult. Very interesting ! It’s extremely worrying and concerning how much influence these narcs have on their followers these days. I loathe reality shows as well.
I’m actually happy with the way I look, my laugh lines, my aging gracefully. It defines me.
I don’t want to look like a duck or have that plastic fake look …there’s plenty of fake people already…. we certainly don’t need more. Look at all the botched face n boob jobs.
It’s all going to come back and bite them in the bum …..which is probably fake too 🍑
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Bubbles! Keanu as John Wick though!! A good man portraying “a bad man doing a good job”! 💪 .. there is that dignity in how the character is moving through the circumstances to gain his freedom..
Similar to Neo, but here he is not the “good” one, but the “bad” who is but the good. Reeve’s theme😂
Just goes to show what a good actor he is J
We have actually watched the John Wicks movies …our daughter keeps us ‘on the ball’ and ‘finger on the pulse’ so to speak haha
I loved John Wick, the first was the best! There’s so much about that character , that appeals to me and the movie has my Justice and Anger traits grinning with satisfaction. It felt good to watch it. 😁
I just saw John Wick 4. It’s a video game. Keanu by all accounts is a good man but his Wick series is for gamers obviously.
Bubbles: my son asked me what life was like pre internet. Having a phone with a cord. Lol. I said it’s a mix. I love the connection to knowledge and the world and to connect with family members far away BUT I think the youth crisis and mental health crisis is due to it. Young people look at people like the Kardashians ( and Kim is my age) and others and compare and feel insecure etc… they look at friends posts and feel excluded or worse failures. The internet is often as much as a fraud as thinking that neighbors marriage is perfect. You don’t know. But it has been proven social media has harmed our children greatly. My son agreed!
Our kids went thru school without mobile phones, internet or social media. They survived on books, dictionary’s, hard yakka, playing outside, having friends and relying on poor ol mum n dad for some knowledge and wisdom….
poor buggas 🤣
I feel there were fewer distractions and we spent more time with family and friends. We worked harder on relationships.
We had backyards with home grown vegetables and fruit trees. Baking was the norm. Everyone is glued to their phones now. We’re over saturated with everything. We’re become easily distracted. The internet has created more anxiety and depression and isolation has become overwhelming to a lot of people. Social communication is so different now. We’re too soft and covered in bubble wrap. We become the sensitive generation and now there’s the abundance of Karen aggressors.
The Kardashians are false and are laughing all the way to the bank. Their kids will suffer in the long run.
We may be intellectually smarter, and tech savvy but it’s made us dumber in so many ways. We are actually destroying ourselves at an alarming rate along with this beautiful planet .
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
I agree with what you have written here. The internet, social media, mobile phones and technology in general seems to be more important than the ‘reality’ people are actually living in.
I think many people are addicted to their phones and/or social media at the expense of their immediate lives.
In another thread under this post, the subject of child abuse is discussed. The examples of abuse are extreme and obvious.
In contrast, over the past week, I have seen a handful of situations in my own street that few average people would describe as ‘abusive’ because they are so normal, or average, or commonly observed that they wouldn’t fall under the ‘abusive’ umbrella.
However, I have read quite a lot of scientific research and general knowledge about things like early child development, attachment, communication with babies (e.g. serve and return), interactive physical and emotional engagement, the mother-baby dyad, the way babies learn language, etc, – and what is considered ‘normal’, average child-raising these days can be considered inadvertently unhealthy or even ‘abusive’.
The real-life examples I’ve seen in just the past week:
– Young mothers walking with their babies or young children in prams or strollers and completely ignoring the child while glued to their mobile phone like their life depended on it. They push the stroller with one hand while holding the mobile phone in the other, texting and reading and they’re not even looking ahead at where they’re going.
– A grandmother outside on the street with a small baby in one of those baby walkers with wheels. The grandmother pushed the baby walker with her foot every so often and didn’t really engage with the baby. It looked like she was reluctantly doing her ‘duty’ and couldn’t be bothered.
– Three children playing where one child is much younger and smaller than the others and the bigger two are openly mocking, hitting, slapping and laughing at the little one who is too small to properly defend himself. The parents are nowhere to be seen while this is happening.
– A young mother who has only recently given birth who comes outside every day at regular intervals to have a cigarette while glued to her phone.
– A teenage boy walking to school in the morning and glued to his phone while walking.
When seeing these examples, I have not been actively looking for or at these people. They just happened to be outside or where I could see them when I happened to be outside. To me, I see ‘abuse’ in each one, but to describe it as ‘abusive’ to someone would make me sound as though I’m overreacting or paranoid because these behaviours are so ubiquitous and normal these days.
People are addicted to their phones and social media and I believe it is at the expense of living a healthy normal ‘real’ life and raising healthy children who can relate to other people in an emotionally healthy way. But, god forbid you say that to anyone.
I completely left off “privacy” from my comment.
“WE WANT PRIVACY, WE WANT PRIVACY” 🤣
One of the most important factors ever ! ( my brain tends to have many after thoughts …..must be an empath thing hehe )
Nothing appears to be off limits these days, NOTHING !
I just had Facebook ‘thrust’ this newsfeed before my delicate eyes (whilst enjoying my Sunday morning coffee) of a previous MAFS Martha and Michael couple. They had a baby and her nipple milk duct was clogged so they thought it a grand idea for him to suck on it to get it flowing and in the process felt they needed to video this and share with all n sundry.
This is just gross, unnecessary, private, nobody cares and know one needs to know. When is all this going to stop?
China must be having a field day watching everyone make fools of themselves.
Is nothing scared anymore ?
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Dearest Wiser Now,
I’m positive I responded to your comment regarding babes kids iPads n iPhones. I’ve been waiting for it to come thru.
It probably got clogged in the Tudor castle garberobes and now floating in the moat somewhere 🤣
I concurred with your statement however what I wrote I’ve totally forgotten. 🥴
Your well written comment wasn’t ignored lovely
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Dearest A Victor,
I forgot to mention Brendan Fraser ….he’s a good one…. along with Keanu ☺️
Thanks. Since learning about narcissism and it’s impact on so much in the entertainment world, in our culture at large as a result, I have changed my thinking and my viewing habits also. It is disgusting to me to think that narcissistic values and mindset is being eaten up daily by most in the world. Even if it is from a shock value standpoint, it still impacts our minds and tolerances.
Keanu is fun, Brendan Fraser and another I like to watch is Matthew McConaughey. Even though the shows they act in are likely written by narcs!
I agree, I am happy with my appearance also, it is who I am. How is that for a sense of self? 😃
Take care Bubbles, thank you for the comments!
Victor and Bubbles! Yes, Keanu is am empath king! HG: do a series on why?
Dearest A Victor,
Having broadened my horizons with this narcissistic insight, I’ve questioned and challenged like never before. I observe thru a whole new lens with everyone from celebrities, politicians, singers, actors…..you name it.
I’ve reevaluated Matthew McConaughey and he’s evolved over the years ….he appears to a better person.
I’m very much in line with your train of thoughts AV regarding the entertainment world, sad but true.
I’m ecstatic you have claimed your ‘sense of self’ … you go girl! Should be more of it!
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Dearest Bubbles, another one of my favorite empaths is from your neck of the woods, Hugh Jackman. Great actor and great to look at, lol!
I tend to agree with you. We luv our Hugh! One of the nicest blokes and very genuine.
Saw him in concert “The Greatest Showman” …… just fabuuuuuuulous! His best mate Ryan Reynolds is another one I like too.
Sad you can only count the nice ones on one hand these days, maybe two at pinch hehe
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
We end up not even knowing what is normal behaviour..
I really like it when HG says ‘this is what a normal person would do’ because sometimes I don’t know.🤷♀️
Yes! Jasmin, that is the same for me!! I have been so surprised sometimes at how normal people, and healthy empaths, would handle things so differently than what I learned and came to expect. It is a relief to have that information. Then, if we don’t see “normal” behavior, it serves as a red flag. It also helps me to slow down and not react from my old understanding but instead process how I really want to respond and then do so accordingly.
Also when we see normal behaviour (now that we know it’s normal) this may tell us that this person do not have a need to assert control over us. Some of the normal behaviours that before came off as strange to me (because it wasn’t what I expected) is now a green light instead.
What a great thought Jasmin! Not only are some things not a red light, but sometimes they can be a green light! I had not considered that! Thank you!
On Thursday I was with my daughter on another visit to the hospital. Her previous surgeon (female) was hopeless. She ordered the same tests 4 times without any sense (I had already come to her with SPECIFIC results and a diagnosis from another doctor) and postponed the operation for several months, knowing how my daughter was suffering from pain and that if it got worse, it could lead to a life-threatening situation.
Very unpleasant remarks to my daughter, an elusive kind of abuse. Objective treatment.
I was able to change surgeon in this hospital. The daughter was booked for an expedited operation. Unfortunately, there has already been inflammation. The new surgeon amazed me with her empathic approach. When she did the ultrasound, she said to my daughter: “Dear child, mouse, I am so sorry, that you suffered for so long.” Then a ball of emotion lodged in my throat, that someone had finally taken action.
When we left the hospital, my daughter said in a delighted voice: “Mom, how nice the doctor was!”. I replied: “She was normal.” My daughter corrected: “No, she was very nice!”. I looked my daughter in the eye and said: “I say to you exactly the same as you say to me. The doctor was normal, because this is how EVERY person should behave.”
Joa, I’m so sorry to hear about your daughter’s health issues but I’m glad to hear she has a surgeon who will finally help her.
Wow Joa! What a great opportunity to witness empathy in action and what a great conversation with your daughter about it! Win/win! Glad she is able to get her surgery sooner, that’s great!
Joa, thank you for sharing about your daughter’s (and your) experiences with the doctor that did not help you, despite you having the right information in your hands. You worded it like “an elusive kind of abuse and objective treatment” – I had similar, now I speak with different doctors that listen, take what I have to say seriously instead of “pretending” to listen. In my opinion, some doctors are right for the positions they work in and others are not, it may also depend on what field of health they operate in.
I am sorry that your daughter suffered for longer than necessary and is now accessing the right assistance. That will be a peace of mind for both of you. No doubt, with your support, your daughter will recover sooner from what she is going though. Best regards to you both x
Leigh, A.V., thank you. Today they called me from the hospital and I know that my daughter will go “under the knife” (or rather laparoscope) in very good and experienced hands. I relaxed.
Although, of course, at the same time, a note of fear began to gently flutter: “What if something goes wrong?”, which I immediately chase away 🙂
This comment was more about conversation about what “normal” means. I described on a “live” example from my life – how I see it.
Of course, with my daughter will be fine, because has to be. And the end and dot! And there is no other solution 🙂
Hi Joa, it will be fine, as you said, she’s in good and experienced hands.
Your real life experience with “normal” was great, thank you for sharing.
Please let us know how your daughter is after her surgery. You and she will be in my thoughts.
So very happy for you and your daughter. Glad you finally found an empathic caring person.
I witnessed a female doctor chastising a staff member at her reception desk the other day. No need to guess what she was.
A “normal” analysis by our revered Mr Tudor would indeed be an asset to us all.
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
So true!!!reading these comments makes me feel less weird. And when HG gives those scenarios it helps a lot in order to think ahead for when certain situations may come up.
Do you think you can maybe do some videos or articles on normal behavior, so we can compare them next to narcissist behavior?? Xx
That’s a good idea!
At the moment it a bit sporadic. At HGs old channel there are these ‘tip to out the narc’ where the normals awnser is mentioned after the different schools of Ns awnser:
There’s a part 2 as well. VERY GOOD!
Hi Jasmin, you hit the nail on the head! We’re so used to narc behavior we often don’t recognize normal behavior when we see it.
I try to pay attention to the people that Mr. Tudor has already confirmed as normal or an empath. He has a series on YouTube of 10 Famous Empaths + 1 Bonus Empath. His Will Smith series is very informative as well. I also make it a point to watch his videos on Catherine, Princess of Wales. (I hope I got that title right. I’m trying to score brownies points, lol.) He just did a video on Jacinda Arden also.
I know these individuals are empaths and not normals. But their behaviors will give us a barometer of how normals or empaths act vs. how narcissists act.
I just saw this comment. I do the same. Every video about the empaths I listen carefully.
Whoah, awesome! Looking forward to more material on the psychophath. 👍❤️
Its nice to see you Leela. I hope you’re well.
The thing which I find even more peculiar is, you as an empath have to learn to apply coldness and indifference in order to get a solid no contact regimen which otherwise would not work. Well yes, you apply indifference to their lies and not their true motivation or feelings, but isn’t a true feeling a big wound which motivates them (to lie) after all? In order to free yourself, you must apply that which created them – ignorance to them, as their LOCE was inflicted on them via a traumatic experience. In this process, by freeing yourself, lies the hurt of them and you. And it can’t be done in another way. Because if you don’t do it, they continue to hurt you, destroy you. So it becomes the game of survival, either you or them. Wound on wound.
I understand that it must be in this case. As long as the indifference don’t take hold of the empath, I’d say you have no other choice than be like that to certain very dangerous people. And if it does, you slowly may become indifferent more and more, accepting ideas and norms which will sustain the battleground, continuing to provide the LOCE on a small and big scale.
I reflect on what is shared here and put my thoughts perhaps in a brusk manner at times as all this topics stir me up, yet please don’t feel attacked or critiqued. Whenever I write „you“ I include myself in that. As I want to find a better understanding of what matters in life and how it can be lived without a constant infliction of pain and injustice. Lived to the fullest potential including the fiery energies and the sense of mightiness.
When I need to break away from a toxic individual, they can be either narcissist, normal, empath or narcissistic…I pull away emotionally first and develop, over time, coldness towards them and then indifference and then I’m able to completely walk away and not look back. It’s like they never existed, the indifference is complete for me. I may even forget their name after a time, rare, but it has happened with those, who were friends,but then turned out to be harmful to me. It hurts for a time, but like building a callous, the pain doesn’t hurt once you build some hardness around it. It just takes work and determination.
I think sadly in general people are just bad
That is why we have laws, the police force etc. Without laws people would just do what they want, and that would look pretty ugly.
Look at the book/story “Lord of the flies”
As mentioned before, look at war. When it breaks out and all society breaks down, people behave like animals.
There is a myth that humans are good. It is simply not true
Look at how our food is produced. How animals are treated. How people spread over the world like a virus destroying the natural habitat of animals. All they care about is me me me. How they look, if they have the latest smart phone. Themselves. Basically.
If you ask me, and this is just my opinion
Most human beings are narcissistic. They may have rose tinted spectacles on their eyes, living in a bubble not wishing to see the truth.
If we did not have civilised society and certain rules in place. It would look very ugly indeed.
I love this scene from the matrix.
Where the smith says that “humans are a virus”
Matrix is a very interesting film!! I was thinking about it just recently.
About the words of Smith you mentioned; when I observe little children, I see that they are perfect – they are not a virus. It is what they are put through as they grow up, make some of them behave in that way.
Painful to witness all of it. I think if we are given the ability to see it, understand it, we are also equipped to do it differently. In our own lives, so it would change bit by bit, slowly, but it would bear fruits.
I remember as a child I went to the trocadero Piccadilly Circus in London. There was an exibition there. It showed the most dangerous animals. Then it said, when you go round the corner you will see the most deadliest animal on the planet.
I turned the corner and saw myself. Reflected in a mirror.
Human beings are the most dangerous species on the planet. They can do good but they can also do evil.
I find it sad that this planet has so much. Everyone can be fed and have a good life, but the greed of the ones who want more, have no empathy causes suffering.
Look at our technology, it is amazing and yet humans are still the same. You only have to look at war to see that. The primitive game of the territorial pissing ground. It is sad.
📞 Heads up, Mr Anderson!
“Because I choose to.”
I have met children with concerning and sometimes even evil behaviours. I do not automatically like a person just because they are a child.
Don’t have to like them, I think, but understand them..
(the link don’t work If I click on it. I hope this one does.)
It’s the narcissistic truth No. 102. – You cannot harm emptiness
Yes, the fist link didn’t work. Is it something in the comment section you are referring to?
Understand them yes, but from a distance.
“You can’t harm emptiness.” Thank you for that much needed reminder, Jordy.
Jasmin💕(no, not a comment just the image and the words of the narcissistic truth, the second link is working)
Anna, you forget that during the war – apart from what you describe – people also develop a sense of great community, the most beautiful ideas, faith, hope, cooperation to survive, touching impulses of help and sacrifice.
In the face of death and the atrocities of war – love blooms, and every ray of sunshine, every smile through tears, every blooming flower becomes an element of celebration of life in the greatest dimension.
Also what I think makes it difficult for me in understanding you is the boredom you mentioning. In fact I’m not on the one page in understanding what is meant by this word and how it feels, whenever someone would mention it. If I’m correct it is the absence of interest of motivation-action or interest of experiencing the experience, or not knowing what one want? So the motivation and achievement for your multiple results and brilliance than only lies in the narcissism and the need for fuel as it is tied to survival. So narcissism in this case is a force for moving forth and can be viewed as balancing out the boredom and giving the psychopathy a more civil frame in coexisting (otherwise the bodies would accumulate) if I understood correctly.
Or is psychopathy the driving force to elevate boredom by sadism and power-over behavior? And the narcissism is giving it direction and limits the deadly outcome?
But control and power is tied to narcissism only, right? So it can’t be part of psychopathy or is it still?
Also: fury comes from narcissism, right? Hatred too? Or does it come from psychopathy?
I don’t understand if the sustained periods of time where all there is, is the emptiness – is there anything in the emptiness that sparks anything, such as hatred? Or do all emotions come from narcissism?
Do you experience (via psychopathy?) the rage, the hatred, the disgust, the antipathy for life and life forms and that is why the bodies would accumulate? And is narcissism giving you the taste for life and thus it brings you on the side of not extinguishing it completely but seek to control it rather to provide the taste for life?
Does a pure psychopaths have meaning and value of his/her own existence and what is it tied to? Do beliefs plays any role in it or is it just instinct? How do they explain themselves about themselves in their mind? Or is there no such process or need for it?
Also is there such thing as a split where either psychopathy or narcissism want to taker over? Sort of internal fight or do both sides get along and the outcome is satisfactory to both sides?
Do both sides (narcissism and psychopathy) keep the Creature imprisoned? Or does the Beast keep the Creature imprisoned? And is the Beast then the part of psychopathy? Or is the Beast the product of both narcissism and psychopathy?
Does the psychopath in you always know the outcome of every relationship which makes the idea of the One who could finally meet the criteria for the demands of perfect fueling is purely a program from the narcissism?
Because you mentioned it is the psychopath who gets bored quickly, I would now make the assumption it is the psychopath who gives up on the relationship then?
The rage come from the narcissism. The disgust, antipathy and contempt can manifest in both narcissism and psychopathy.
HG, is narcissism a barrier to psychopathy? Can we say, that in some sense narcissism “saves” a person from plunging into “psychopathic” nothingness?
Jordyguin, great questions!
Thank you, HG!
Hmmm, annoys me, that I can’t wrap it my mind around it 🙂
I want to feel it and know it.
Though, I don’t know why?
😅I was in the flow, they all came at once😂😚
The fury exists for all narcissists in some form.
Thank you HG, sir!☺️ With all the other answers combined, the picture becomes clearer! Thank you!🌟
Coldness and indifference, as it is tied to psychopathy, is in my view responsible for sadism which can take many forms, physical and non physical. And this is interwoven in the society and became the norm and acceptable because the threshold was erased over time, so this element is not just lived by psychopaths only. And the exploitation of humans (which are viewed as dead pieces of the societal construct) and nature reached its peak. Nature or animal kingdom don’t exploit or extinct their surroundings, except the human intervenes in that chain. Nature regulates itself, stops reproduction etc. The society or civilization however do exploit and extinct as the result of the state of indifference which then leads to sadism of various forms but is not seen anymore as sadism and suffering becomes a norm. Predators in natural environment don’t extinct their prey. There is again that damn balance. How I understand psychopathy – it is a state which may evolve only for its own benefit, as it stands on the suffering of others. Perhaps there is the possibility of the recognition of this unnatural state. However I understand the difficulty for that recognition if there is the missing or dimmed empathy and so on.
Jordyguin: I don’t think all psychopaths are sadists. Most just have no conscious or a broken conscious and want what they want. Sadists are those who enjoy others pain. Not all psychopaths are sadists. Right HG?
Correct. A pure psychopath wants things and if you get in the way of the psychopath getting that thing and you must be hurt, so be it. A psychopath exhibiting sadism actively enjoys and derives pleasure from you being hurt.
HG, have you ever been in a relationship with a psychopath and if so, was it a case of daggers and weapons for fun in bed or was it chaos with a lot of minding your p’s and q’s for survival?
Contagious and HG thank you for this explanation! Yes, I understand it’s an active exhibition of sadism of a pure psychopath.
My question is, would „inactive“ be fo example; an adult person invalidates, verbally abuse and manipulate a little child exploiting its vulnerability — is the process of crippling child’s spirit by deriving pleasure either via fuel, the sense of power, or the idea of educating the child by bending its will and spirit, physically and psychologically harming it.
Or someone working in a lab and is crippling an animal testing the effect or measure of chemical toxicity, deriving pleasure from the idea of succeeding in the professional field.
Empathy for the animal or the child would get in the way, so empathy itself must be viewed as an enemy and extinct.
I see it as a form of sadism. I don’t know how else to name it?
I feel like there are no clear videos from psychologists on the subject of narcissist vs psychopath vs both…I think that’s how I stumbled upon your work @HG. And there is nobody else who can explain it better than you. Believe me I have searched and searched for material. It can be so confusing to learn about. And I feel like you do an amazing job at conveying that psychopaths aren’t necessarily what you see on tv. my first relationship was with someone who (I didn’t know it at the time) but was diagnosed with NPD with psychopathy. Not sure what the exact terminology was but that’s basically what his mom told me. I was 14 when we met. Anybody who I met after him, even if he was disengaged, I felt like I was cheating. Like I belonged to him. I didn’t know it at the time why I had that programmed into my head. Lucky for me, I was not the girl he chose as his IPPS. It is an extremely painful experience to be in love with a person who can’t be healed. Nor does he think he needs healing and he doesn’t want to be healed. I honestly wished he were doing better in life so I can hate him. But karma hit him hard. Which is sad and scary to me. I will never not be scared of him. Not necessarily scared that he will hurt me, just scared that he will find me and fuck up my life for shits and giggles. While the whole time distracting and mesmerizing me with the dangling carrot. (Love not the one in his pants)
I dare never let him know that I am scared because that would offend his narcissism. But if I was not submissive enough then would come the fucked up mind games. And a loop of things he would say and do to keep me in my place and remind me that I was nothing and that he was everything. Without ever actually saying that. He would tell me about how violent he can be to men. And tell me about how brutal he can be. How he hated to be in the room with any other man. Which in itself put me in my place and scared me. Because in my head he was so sweet to me. But to think he could be so violent when hr was away from me frightened and really scared me into never wanting to witness it. He made me feel like I should feel lucky that someone like him would like me. It’s funny because I was in college and had been with him for 7 years (on and off) and I was taking abnormal psychology and I had diagnosed him with Antisocial Personality Disorder. But it was when he had just disengaged from me. And in the class they warned us that we might do that (start diagnosing people we knew with things as the class progressed) so I second guessed myself and chalked it up to me being hurt that he cheated on me. This was like 18 years ago before the internet was overloaded with the NPD/Empath dynamic. Trauma bonds are such a real and such a fucked up thing. I have previously considered/pondered that if the procedure done in the movie ‘Eternal Sunshine of a spotless mind’ was an actual procedure, that maybe I would get it done to erase my memory of him.
You are completely right HG about no contact regime and I find it amazing that you have the whole series on the emotional thinking and battles. Because it really doesn’t matter how much time has gone by. I underestimated the power someone could have over my mind. No matter how far removed I thought I was. Sending condolences to an ex is a huge mistake. And HG has great material on the grieving narcissist. Which I wish I would have seen sooner. He had the code memorized from years before. No matter how strong you think your mind is. Or how much time has passed, If you feel a need to contact your past, check yourself into a mental hospital STAT.
Some clarification please..
Are all Greater Narcissists psychopaths or are there Greaters who are not?
They are all narcissistic psychopaths.
HG, with that answer, it all comes together for me. I thought that what others describe as a dark triad (narcissism, psychopathy, machiavellism) is similar to how you describe Greaters. Your classification adds more clarity and color, and most importantly, the insight that they are aware of what they are. But now that I understand that Greaters are narcissistic psychopaths, I see that the classification is consistent with the dark triad. And machiavellism is, of course, built into the Greaters. Some psychologists add sadism and call it the dark tetrad, but that’s not as commonly used. Do you think sadism is a trait that all psychopaths possess, or some are just bored by pain of others and prefer to relieve boredom in other ways?
No, not all psychopaths exhibit sadism.
HG, are there narcissistic psychopaths among narcissists who are not the Greaters, for example, among the Upper Lessers? Or would those be sociopaths, as psychopaths posses charm and are socially savvy? The Greaters, as I understand your classification, have high cognitive function, but I imagine there are psychopaths who are not born with high cognitive function. If they become narcissistic psychopaths, what schools are they likely to be?
If you wait for the work on this to be provided it will give you a clear picture of all of the categorisations.
This is very definitive, HG. It’s also very interesting.
It sounds like cognitive awareness of what they are and the ’embracing’ of the emptiness within and their motivations makes the difference.
Also, there is an element of being born that way rather than made that way by a LOCE when it comes to Greaters.
One question I have about psychopathy is whether you have a categorisation system for psychopaths, similar to the system you have for narcissists (i.e. Lessers, Mid-Range and Greaters)?
I find that the gulf is wide – ever surprisingly so – between your knowledge and explanations about psychopathy and narcissism compared to that of ‘experts’ in the field of psychology.
I just have to post this because it’s a good contrast to the education we receive here and it touches on the topic of psychopathy.
Also, because the YT crowd is not very conducive to sensible discussions connected to Jordan Peterson. But, mostly because I find conversations between Piers Morgan and Jordan Peterson intensely entertaining (despite the fact I mostly avoid listening to Peterson at all – but these two together, I simply can’t pass up having a listen.)
From ‘Piers Morgan Uncensored’
I can’t help laughing at Peterson’s rant (in response to a question on “Tribalism” from Morgan), starting at, roughly, 2:52 (and continuing for sometime) on online “trolls” – where he basically tars them all with the same brush.
“As we virtualize the world, we are enabling the small percentage of people – it’s usually about 3 percent of people in general populations – who use manipulation, reputation savaging, denigration and self-promotion – so the genuine psychopathic types – who dominate the social conversation and spew their poisonous and manipulative venom into the public domain…not only with no fear of being stopped and no inhibition – which is almost all applied socially – but also,while being monetized and promoted by people who run the social media channels.
And every society, forever, has had to contend with a small percentage of people who will utilize all the benefits
of society only for themselves…they contend with the fact that those people, if not brought under control, can demolish the structure of the entire society. And I think that the polarization that we’re feeling is a consequence of their untrammeled expression online. Instagram, Facebook and in online comment forums, like Twitter.”
And I l just love how he simply lumps all the characteristics of these trolls or “genuine psychopaths” together (while simultaneously taking a dig at women – but that’s a whole other discussion) :
“those who post repeatedly, say on online forums, especially in relationship to comments and you certainly see that same pattern of sadism, machiavellianism, psychopathy and narcissism characterizing the men who are also incentivized to use what used to be classic anti-social female strategies to advance themselves in the reputational hierarchy – exploiters, fundamentally.”
And then Peterson’s suggestion as to how to deal with said individuals:
The “online, cowardly, anonymous, narcissistic, pathological troll demons, who are polluting the public discourse, should be put in a different comment section and if you want to go to hell and visit the troll demons and see what they spew, you can but otherwise you can be among the normal human beings engaged in normal, civil human discourse and that would separate the bloody psychopaths from the bulk of normal, decent people.”
But the BEST part is where Piers Morgan interrupts him, after he’s gone on for sometime denigrating “psychopaths”…
JP: “Ninety-seven percent of people aren’t psychopathic, so we are talking about a small minority here, but they have the upper hand…”
PM (interrupts): “I had the psychopath test done on me actually, a lengthy questionnaire, and they concluded I was a good psychopath.”
JP: (Silence for a moment) “And what did they mean by that, exactly – do you know?”
PM (laughs loudly and states): “Apparently, I wasn’t, like, the malevolent version. It was slightly lost on me: the nuance.”
And then they go on to discuss HW and Trump – the part on HW being covered by one of HG’s previous videos.
HG – I am sure people have asked you to analyze that whole interview between Piers and Jordan – and maybe you will do in the future – so if you don’t want to post this that’s fine. But that exchange made me hyper aware of how thankful I am for the education we receive here and I look forward to more on your “Knowing the Psychopath” writings.
You are welcome.
WhoCares, thank you for sharing that info. So Piers is a “psychopath”? Bet he would have added, “but, I’m not a narcissist” 😉
Asp Emp I had to stifle my laughter at that – I am waiting to attend court (as a support for a friend) – but, thanks for the chuckle.
Hi WhoCares, good that you were there for your friend 🙂 Yes, sometimes reading comments in public waiting areas can be difficult to stifle laughing out loud, as I did at one place, I apologised to the couple that looked up at me and they were ok about it and smiled at me as if it was really ok. 🙂
Asp Emp – I could have used some humour throughout that day and the next. I endured a mind-numbing, monotone Midrange lawyer drone on and on and ON (for 2 days) while reading documents that already had been before the courts, in one shape or another, and then asking questions about the content in ways that just reframed them slightly so it was actually like asking the same question 3 or 4 times…I have never had the privilege of listening to such a boring lawyer…and the only thing I can say is he was really good at wearing down the witness. Thank goodness I wasn’t on the receiving end of that.
It also gives me renewed appreciation for my own no contact in my personal situation.
WhoCares, oh dearie me, 2 days?! And to think how much that MRN lawyer would be earning! Being an observer can give you a different perspective on your own situation. I am glad yours has been sorted out 🙂
“WhoCares, oh dearie me, 2 days?! And to think how much that MRN lawyer would be earning! Being an observer can give you a different perspective on your own situation. I am glad yours has been sorted out 🙂”
It was 3 days…(I could only commit to 2 of them)…and he’s not done! But now he doesn’t get to continue his cross examination until nearly next year.
Honestly though, despite his droning on and on being deadly dull (I even observed the judge’s eyelids slowly lowering, more than once, before he caught himself) – I still find it fascinating, and a hands-on learning experience, watching how he reacts to the opposing lawyer, the judge or when my friend (on the stand) doesn’t answer his questions the way he wants her to. I don’t watch my friend’s ex at all, as per HG’s instruction about court attendance with a narcissist. But, his mid-range lawyer is too good an educational opportunity to pass up…and I should be clear, I don’t have NDC confirmation that he is a midrange narc…only that both my friend and I follow HG’s work and have witnessed multiple indicators and manipulations on his part.
Oh, and regarding lawyer fees – yes, it’s amazing (yet typical) how a lesser can find the funds to pay his lawyer in retaliation against a former IPPS, but can’t consistently pay child support.
Dearest Who Cares,
Couldn’t have been more boring than listening to the very unprofessionally orchestrated Paltrow debacle.
Remind me not to buy a baby blue suit with shoulder pads and to always carry Sudafed in case I get the sniffles 🤧
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Ps I’ve listened to Peterson on many occasions. I find him some of his views interesting however he loves to hear his own voice and he’s too monotonal for me……goes on forever. 🥱
Piers, I don’t mind, to a point, however, I hate the way he interrupts his guests with his self opinionated assertive views and doesn’t look at both sides constructively and respectfully. He has to always be right haha. I do like his tirade on HnM 🤣
I recently came across Peter Crone, The Mind Architect… very interesting!
I’m also listening to Jefferson Fisher a personal injury lawyer …he has some good standard advice as well.
Peterson sounds like Kermit the Frog.
Thanks for input.
“Couldn’t have been more boring than listening to the very unprofessionally orchestrated Paltrow debacle.”
Ha! I thought the “unprofessionally orchestrated” part WAS the entertainment factor – that, along with Paltrow’s weird and uncomfortable assortment of facial expressions – which I could only tolerate a bit of, and only so I had some context for HG’s educational commentary on the ski trial.
I agree with you both on Peterson loving the sound of his own voice and Morgan talking over people! But if I had to listen to one of them on repeat, I would choose Piers Morgan – his behaviour can be atrocious at times but I actually like that he’s straightforward and unapologetic. And I doubt you will ever catch Piers tearing up and looking straight into the camera to engender sympathy from his audience.
“I recently came across Peter Crone, The Mind Architect… very interesting!
I’m also listening to Jefferson Fisher a personal injury lawyer …he has some good standard advice as well.”
I may well have to look those guys up…
Dear Mr Tudor,
You nailed it perfectly (as you do) hehe
Thank you 🐸
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Anyone like Russel Brand? HG?
Dearest Who Cares,
Yes, I definitely prefer animated Piers over boring Peterson ….Kermit sounds like he has a frog in his froat 😂🤣😂🤣
Paltrow’s thin lips were doing a dance all of their own haha
She looked like Jeffrey Dahmer’s sister with those glasses 🤓
What was with her yellow hair ???? 🤣
Can wait for Sanderson to appeal…hilarious
Naturally everyone has their own personal favourites, I like listening to Dan Wootten, Megyn Kelly and Candice Owens. One person I very much like and admire is Simon Sinek, he appears very sincere, genuine and makes sense. Aussie motivational speakers, Kerwin Rae and Vinh Giang are another two I follow. I’m always looking to do better.
Guess it’s all eyes on Trump now 😈
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Haha Bubbles – “Paltrow’s thin lips were doing a dance all of their own”
That’s a great way to describe them – definitely were incongruous to the rest of her face.
WC, Interesting commentary on JP and his discussion with Piers Morgan.
There are points with which agree and ones with which I disagree.
Firstly, I disagree that there is a lack of sensible discussion when it comes to those who comment on his YT videos. For the most part there is a thankfulness expressed from those whose lives he has helped to move forward in a positive way and a gratefulness for the insight he helps to provide. He would not be so popular is he didn’t have something worthwhile to say, even if you don’t agree with him. There are also many women who are appreciative of his work, though some try to paint him as a misogynist in the bigger picture. It’s a perspective I don’t agree with, and hold to his work being valuable for both men and women.
The sentiment around trolls I found to be somewhat out of character, and from my perspective comes from a sense of woundedness at the onslaught he has also suffered online. It’s an area where I think he needs to take a step back from his personal hurt or injury as enjoining in the online world means that is one of the consequences. You cannot put yourself out there the way Peterson has done and not expect pushback in this current age. I’m sure a lot of that is unpalatable, but it’s a reality that needs to be confronted. I’m not sure the answer is to call these people out as psychopaths. It’s name calling that is below the standard I would expect. Besides, an element of moderation on any online forum should assist with that. I would not focus on the trolls in order to get my point across.
He’s probably right to question Piers Morgan on what the notion of a “good psychopath” means. HG has Piers marked as a narcissist, but I don’t think a psychopath. What does that mean regarding the lengthy questionnaire Piers completed? What does it mean in light of the discussion? It seems Piers could be marked as being an online troll and placed in the category JP is highlighting. It adds a twist to the discussion which really highlights the difficulty in trying to separate these people out. The idea that all trolls can be lumped into that percentage category is a little disingenuous. Someone might just be having a bad day, emotional thinking might have taken them over, perhaps a simple disagreement could be read as trolling. It’s a lot more nuanced than Peterson has indicated, at least in my opinion.
In this instance, I think a lack of objectivity has impacted the discussion you have outlined.
Thank-you for sharing your views.
“Firstly, I disagree that there is a lack of sensible discussion when it comes to those who comment on his YT videos.”
I did hesitate over my decision to use the word “sensible” – and perhaps I could have selected something different, but I didn’t want to labour over the word choice.
“For the most part there is a thankfulness expressed from those whose lives he has helped to move forward in a positive way and a gratefulness for the insight he helps to provide.”
Yes, I have noticed this thankfulness and gratitude.
“He would not be so popular is he didn’t have something worthwhile to say, even if you don’t agree with him.”
I actually did not say whether I feel he has something worthwhile to say or if I agree with him or not. However, I would expect him to have a more refined understanding of psychopathy (given who he is and his educational background) and a more professional definition or description of such individuals in lieu of “online, cowardly, anonymous, narcissistic, pathological troll demons”…as you said, it’s more or less name calling.
“There are also many women who are appreciative of his work, though some try to paint him as a misogynist in the bigger picture. It’s a perspective I don’t agree with, and hold to his work being valuable for both men and women.”
Yes, I have seen that both men and women are appreciative of his work.
Regarding “trolls”, I agree with you that “an element of moderation on any online forum should assist with that.” But Jordan Peterson’s view of how these “trolls” should be dealt with seemed pretty naive and, although I didn’t include it in my quotation, he said the division of the comment sections should be based on those who use their public names vs. those who post anonymously, which actually makes me question his intelligence.
“In this instance, I think a lack of objectivity has impacted the discussion you have outlined.”
I agree with you.
The biggest issue I have with JP, and discussions surrounding him, is commentary on his apparent empathy – specifically the over the top ones about him being such an empathetic and compassionate individual – I think those assessments of him lack objectivity.
WhoCares, thank you for sharing more of your thoughts.
I appreciate the further quotation around “trolls” and agree with your assessment of trying to create a separate section for ‘anonymous’ commenters or contributors. That is very naieve, considering some issues require an element of anonymity in order to facilitate discussion and ensure safety. I’m a little incredulous he didn’t consider that aspect of anonymity and think his reasoning may be to allow for more civil discourse – if people can’t remain anonymous then they are less likely to say things that could have a negative impact. He wants to call people out who he thinks hide behind that option when he doesn’t have the same choice. JP must face the onslaught directed at him and be answerable for what he says, unlike some others in the online world.
Jordan Peterson posted some videos at Halloween last year that had a very dark storytelling element to them. I couldn’t really appreciate them, but they were poems I think he had written which possibly reflected the darker experiences of the people he treats. There are moments where I sense him struggling with a darker side in life or in himself. I think some people hold him up as a saviour when he really is just a man. It’s a huge burden for anyone to carry. At the same time, many people, especially men, feel like they are drowning in the current world and JP is the lifeline that they need. I’ve read multiple comments from people on the edge of suicide, drug addicted, feeling their lives were worthless, lacking motivation, seeing no future, who were able to take hold of that lifeline.
I believe he struggles at times, but is sincere.
Thank you, I appreciate your reply, I am never quite sure about jumping into other people’s conversations. I am not a fan of piers, and definitely Keep an open mind when watching any of his reports / interviews.
I actually came across one of the core videos that helped me a great deal when I left the narcissist. I would replay it when I had an urge to reach out to him, to see if he was ok. Which is ridiculous empathy considering what he did to me across time. I was kind of numb to most of my internal senses but the emptiness felt similar to heartache/ loss of my illusion of him. Anyway this is a short clip of one of JPs lectures from the biblical series I think. It helped to remind me that I could not help the narcissist, that he is lost in his own illusion and coping mechanism. I guess this was one of the key clips that helped me hold back and refocus on my own recovery. I hope it is ok to add the link as only a short clip?
I am aware that some view Peterson as a “lifeline” and feel that his work helped turn their life around. But I also know of an Upper Lesser Type B who likes to triangulate with Jordan Peterson’s work, quoting from the “12 rules”…does he actually apply these rules in his life? No. He is simply spouting the words, engaging in trait acquisition and then lauding it over others.
The issue of triangulation will always arise with narcissists, and it’s through no fault of Peterson’s that his work is sometimes used for less worthy purposes. I’m sure that’s a danger for any author. He’s given more than enough lectures and presented more than enough talks to help explain his position. He’s been interviewed multiple times. People will take from his work what they will and he has no control over that. To uphold men in our current society is not a crime, and a badly needed tonic as far as I’m concerned. Men are being emasculated at an alarming rate.
“To uphold men in our current society is not a crime, and a badly needed tonic as far as I’m concerned. Men are being emasculated at an alarming rate.”
I don’t dispute this. I feel like society fails men in a lot of ways and have discussed this elsewhere in the past.
I watched my father be on the receiving end of abuse by my mother for more than 2 decades, I unwittingly helped him escape, then I watched him be ensnared again by an even nastier narcissist and he died while still in that relationship. Although, I didn’t understand any of this at time and can only see the impact it had on him as a consequence of my education here.
Growing up, within my extended family on the maternal side, males were viewed as pretty much useless and basically second class citizens. This view was mostly perpetuated by my maternal grandmother who “ruled the roost” until she died. I chalked up her attitude towards the male species due to her negative experiences with men. But now I can see that she was a narcissist and all the men in her life were the direct cause her ill fortune – of course! Actually, I can see now that there was a succession of female narcissists on that side of the family: my great-grandmother, my grandmother and my mother. I could never understand how jaded they all appeared to be towards men – and I could never accept that all men were how they portrayed them to be.
When I shared with my grandmother that I was pregnant with a boy – she had a one word comment: “Disgusting.” And then she proceeded to ridicule my ex on, “Why couldn’t he make a girl?!”
Needless to say, part of the reason I moved away with my narcissist was to distance myself from my maternal family members – as I didn’t want my son growing up being exposed to the attitude that he was a blight on the earth simply because he was born male.
On a similar note, despite having accessed services due to being in a relationship with an abusive male partner, I have always questioned, from day one, why there are not similar services for men trying to protect themselves from an abusive partner and I acknowledge that I have benefited from such services simply by virtue of being female.
There are a lot gaps in society regarding supports for men – young or otherwise.
Do I think Peterson’s work helps address this gap? Yes.
Would I have an issue if my son, someday, discovered Peterson’s work and drew some benefit from it? No.
Do I think that Peterson engages in his work from a position of sincerity, however?
No, I don’t.
Hi EveBea, just saw your response. Sorry if there was any delay.
I like Piers stand on free speech. He has me there. I also appreciate the fact that he’s been willing to put his neck out with regards to Harry’s wife. He’s been very outspoken about her in a manner that allows others to feel validated in their opinion of her as well. Of course, HG outdoes him in every respect by explaining her narcissism which underlies everything we see. Some might have her pegged as a narcissist, but no one else can give the detailed explanations of HG.
I appreciate him allowing you to post that clip, and it’s a conclusion I’ve come to in my own life, i.e. “Don’t cast your pearls before swine.”
Peterson describes it as harsh, but it is realistic. Some people will not want what you have to offer and are best left to themselves as you go about your business. It’s salutary wisdom, from “on high” no less.
The thing he did get wrong is the other New Testament story with regards to “Let the dead bury the dead.” Once again it is harsh, but it relates to the call to follow Christ – the challenge to leave everything else behind in order to do so. It is not a matter of walking away from someone who is lost (although the dead could be counted as ‘lost’ in some way). His interpretation here is slightly off in the context of the Scripture he is quoting.
I’m very glad you shared the clip and it has helped you on your journey. It is true, the narcissist is lost and we are best to cut our losses when it comes to the narcissist. It’s a helpful reminder to know that we really are casting our pearls before swine when we engage with them and allow them to influence us.
“I appreciate the further quotation around “trolls” and agree with your assessment of trying to create a separate section for ‘anonymous’ commenters or contributors. That is very naieve, considering some issues require an element of anonymity in order to facilitate discussion and ensure safety.”
I agree with the issue of safety surrounding anonymity.
“I’m a little incredulous he didn’t consider that aspect of anonymity and think his reasoning may be to allow for more civil discourse – if people can’t remain anonymous then they are less likely to say things that could have a negative impact.”
I agree here – the choice to not utilize anonymity isn’t a reason to presume that someone won’t engage in trolling or harassing online behaviours – a Mid-range narcissist may well use their actual name and still do so. It’s also naieve of Peterson to suggest that claiming one’s public identity is synonymous with accountability.
“…many people, especially men, feel like they are drowning in the current world and JP is the lifeline that they need. I’ve read multiple comments from people on the edge of suicide, drug addicted, feeling their lives were worthless, lacking motivation, seeing no future, who were able to take hold of that lifeline.”
I didn’t say that Peterson does not do anything good for people.
“I believe he struggles at times, but is sincere.”
This is where we differ – I do not believe that the good that Peterson does in the world comes from a place of sincerity.
WhoCares, first off I have to say thank you for sharing such a difficult part of your family history here. I’m sure I’m not the only one who can appreciate the intensity of that experience over a number of generations. Your father unwittingly stepped into what amounted to a viper’s nest from a male perspective and sadly his escape (well done on your attempt to help him) did not garner him a better outcome. Sounds like an empath who was possibly impacted by childhood experiences as well. I’m sure the empathic element and addiction goes back generations, too.
It hurt my heart to read of your grandmothers response to the news you were having a boy and her damning comment around that – “why couldn’t he be a girl?” You really did effect a rescue for your son in moving away from your family in the circumstances.
Hearing your story makes me wonder how much of a narcissistic dynamic is being played out around discussions of ‘toxic masculinity’ and masculinity in general these days. There is an element of ‘shaming’ men that deeply concerns me, and your comment around not wanting your son to feel like a blight on the earth probably sums it up for me. Men are being damned for just being men, not living up to women’s expectations, and ultimately shamed for the simple fact they exist. If that sounds like your grandmother’s perspective on men, that’s what I think it is. My sense is they can’t escape the sense of shame they are expected to feel for being what they are, and are required to contort themselves into something else to satisfy current beliefs. Only this requirement can never be satisfied.
Your comment on services provided to men is a very honest and insightful one, even though it’s more often women who are impacted in this way. There was a very dramatic case in the UK recently where a man exposed to very abusive and controlling behaviour by his wife for decades was finally freed from that relationship with her exposure and sentencing to prison. Both sexes can be subject to abuse, men less likely to admit it if it’s happening to them, which probably skews some of the statistics. There is a balance to be found here that doesn’t involve shaming men, but allows for the protection of women, and which also acknowledges sometimes men are the ones in need of protection. Women have also suffered the experience of shaming in the past and it seems the pendulum has not yet found the balance. I think Peterson is one person who is attempting to help find that balance without the toxicity of some others who have what I would call a more ‘knee jerk’ reaction that facilitates more negative stereotypes.
I’m not sure why you don’t believe Peterson is sincere. We have very different responses to him in that respect.
Once again, WC, thank you for your courage in sharing that very difficult part of your story. I applaud you for your honesty and insight.
Thank-you for your thoughtful comment. Regarding my family history, it really doesn’t trouble me any – I only shared to illustrate my awareness of how men are viewed by some.
My grandmother’s response to my news at the time did not really come as a surprise to me…merely, a confirmation of who she was. She never played a significant part in my son’s life (he only met her as a baby once or twice – while she was still alive – so he has no recollection of his great-grandmother) and, yes, he has been protected from those negative views of men.
I think your observations on toxic masculinity and men-shaming are insightful and this issue is something that keep in mind since I am raising a young male.
Thank-you for sharing re: the case of a male abuse victim in the UK – are you referring to Alex Skeel? I actually just watched the documentary on his story the other day because it was recommended by NarcAngel in discussion elsewhere on the blog – what a horrendous story of abuse, in general, but also a very good example demonstrating that it can happen to men as well.
Thank-you also for your last paragraph. 💜
WhoCares, thanks for your further comment, and I see we share similar thoughts and feelings around raising young men in the current age. Mine is a young adult now and lacked a good role model in his father – the absence of men in children’s lives is also having an impact, I believe – so there is the double edged sword of men being present as well as good role models. Having an abusive male in the household could only prove detrimental from my perspective.
I think one of the things we are acknowledging is that women can be abusive, too, and that is clear from all the narcissistic mothers being commented on here and elsewhere. The case I mentioned was a more recent one and this article will give the details:
The Alex Skeel tale is another horrific one, and I think it’s the situation men find themselves in at times where they know they can’t ‘retaliate’, as in they are stronger and could inflict greater harm, while at the same time being unable to walk away believing they are responsible or deserving of the abuse. Men can be subject to the coercive and controlling behaviour of women as well. I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a narcissistic mother in the background somewhere, too.
Once again, I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts on the topic which has helped me express some of my own concerns, too. I’ve definitely benefited from your courage <3 I think you son will, too.
“the absence of men in children’s lives is also having an impact, I believe – so there is the double edged sword of men being present as well as good role models. Having an abusive male in the household could only prove detrimental from my perspective.”
This is a huge issue that I absolutely see playing out with my son, and of course, I agree that the solution isn’t too allow that gap to be filled by an abusive male. But there are those who truly believe that it’s better to have some kind of male role model compared to none at all. This is part of my issue with various services for families – for example, many of the professionals, who work with the program that provided supervised access between my son and his father, fully buy into the value of a child having some form of relationship with a parent that was abusive towards the other parent. But, in our case, they would witness the father-son interaction under limited circumstances and are there fueling the interaction themselves (when supervising visitations) therefore, the narcissist parent would likely be on better behaviour…and while it’s performative, it still looks like very loving behaviour towards the child from the perspective of those are uneducated about narcissism.
Yes! The Prison Boss – I should have guessed. I am aware of that due to HG’s excellent coverage of it on YT.
“Men can be subject to the coercive and controlling behaviour of women as well. I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a narcissistic mother in the background somewhere, too.”
I think my father’s mother may have been a narcissist, actually (which would explain a lot – I believe my father would have had a similar empathic make-up to me, only a higher percentage of co-dependent)…I would have to sit and gather information about her to be certain. What I recall about her is very limited. I don’t know anything about my paternal grandfather, he died before I was born, but it’s possible my dad had at least one narcissist parent.
And I know how controlling both my mother was (a confirmed mid-range narcissist) and my father’s second spouse was. Knowing what I know now, his second wife was likely a LMRN, possibly of the Victim cadre – but she was definitely a nasty piece of work.
I feel like I am all over map in this thread LET – it started with Peterson and psychopathy! But thank-you for the discussion ❤️ and for sharing your thoughts and opinions.
We have wandered about a bit on this thread, but I think somehow it's all connected and leading us back to where we started – or at least to the point of the trajectory with regard to Jordan Peterson and commentary on psychopaths. In some ways, it partly comes back to the fact you would let your son read Peterson's books and attend his talks. I took my son (at age 18) to see Peterson speak. I was one of the few women in the audience. It was filled with young men for the most part crying out for hope in this current world. The sight of that audience told me everything I needed to know.
Controversy is currently being writ large across the world at the rise of transgenderism invading both men's and women's spaces. Bud Light will take a hit like Gillette took a hit previously, Nike is likely to take one, too, from the female perspective. The mockery inherent in actions being taken by companies should rightly see them go broke. There is a rightful place for both manhood and womanhood. We complement eachother. That also entails respecting one another and our differences. There is a definite need for good role modeling around that.
You have been able to provide an example of a classic dilemma around role modeling where parental rights come into conflict with children's well being. The notion that an abusive relationship that exists between parent's somehow does not make the abusive parent unsuitable for contact with their child is in some ways ludicrous. Even supervised contact, as you describe, can 'enable' an abusive parent as during that limited time period they can present a well managed facade causing workers to be none the wiser, possibly leading to less restrictive time spent with the parent.
I didn't realise HG had loaded videos to do with "Prison Boss" case, but they were very insightful. Thanks for giving me a heads up on those. If we take the scenario where the prison boss mother is eventually – or even currently – allowed access to her children, what is the likelihood that her narcissism is going to affect them in an abusive manner the way it did her ex-husband? I'd say there's a strong possibility that regardless of her rights as a parent, she will be damaging to her children. Parental rights can outstrip children's rights to their detriment in these circumstances. The system badly needs to recognise the element of narcissism and its intransigence when making decisions, especially those affecting children.
Your father certainly sounds like he was an empath with an addiction to narcissists, and like many of us that addiction can lead us off a cliff more than once as we try to navigate the world, especially if we've already been groomed by a narcissistic parent. Maybe you will never know when it comes to your dad, but I imagine chances would be high. We break the mould when we break away from the narcissist, whether it's parent or partner, and hopefully give our children a much better chance to remain out of the narcissist's grasp.
Whether it's men or women, the issue of narcissism seems to be at the heart of so much that has us teetering on the edge these days.
And then there is Andrew Tate…no problem guessing his psyche.
Interesting, Contagious, that you’ve mentioned Andrew Tate in relation to a discussion on Peterson.
I don’t know for sure if Tate has psychopathy in addition to narcissism but I couldn’t help noticing (when HG did his videos on Tate) that, similarly, Peterson targets/appeals to a particular niche of the male population that is looking for direction. There may even be potential significant overlap, like with incels.
Hi, I hope you don’t mind me jumping in. As I have watched hours upon hours of JP. He has covered psychopathy really well in his personality lectures, all online from as far back as 8/9 years ago, I think a lot of the earlier ones were Harvard based. I think in the context of the piers Morgan conversation he, did not frame it in an educational sense, but within the context of the conversations , which he certainly used judgemental language within.
I believe it to be something that the media has pushed re – his appeal to mainly young men, if based on his appeal on YouTube in the earlier years, that may have been more associated with the percentages of male versus female users of YouTube being disproportionately male. I think his recent tour showed a really good mix of sexes and all walks of life in the crowds.
With a YouTube subscription of 6.5M I think he is doing ok, and many value his work.
I have read maps of meaning, and both of this 12 rules books. I read the later as I was going through the earlier years post escape/ ending my relationship with the narcissist. JP helped me to see a lot within my own psyche and personality. I value his work. I think I have watched all of his lectures on YouTube. I do not agree with all he has expressed in most recent years, but as he would say. I “don’t throw out the baby with the bath water” and I know it is ok for me to still like and appreciate him without, being in complete agreement with him. Just additional thoughts to add to the conversation.
Hi EveBea, I dip in and out of Peterson’s work depending on the topic and generally find it interesting and educational. It’s interesting to see him interview other high profile people, although in this case it was Piers Morgan interviewing him. Piers has what can amount to an annoying interview style, in that he cuts over those he’s interviewing and also likes to throw in clickbait opportunities for further headlines. In that sense, he is a bit of a troll. I watched him interview Richard Dawkins the other day and the discussion about trolls also came up there with agreement they are a problem. Dawkins was very careful to not let Piers draw him out on particular topics or feeling pressured to give him more than he was prepared to give. JP may have felt he had an ally in Piers, but being the narcissist Piers is – or maybe he is a psychopath – he behaved much like the scorpion who climbed on the frog’s back to cross the river.
Anyway, glad you joined the conversation.