Knowing the Narcissist : Interview with Dr Julia Friedman
HG Tudor discusses various fictional representations of narcissists in film, television and literature, which includes examples from each sub school of narcissist. Fascinating and entertaining further learning.
68 thoughts on “Knowing the Narcissist : Interview with Dr Julia Friedman”
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I like Star Wars. The last two I even went to see at midnight – the first screenings here. And I liked this interview.
Hi Annaamel, my comment about Star Wars was intended to be ‘tongue in cheek’, unfortunately the ‘wink’ I tried to apply didn’t fully eventuate – hence the ) without the 😉
I would pay to hear a breakdown of the Hunger Games franchise, so I get the dedication. The only difference between us is that I don’t recall any midnight screenings of the Hunger Games, though I think there may have been a marathon (all four films). Or maybe three in the lead up to the fourth.
Anyway, the reason I didn’t enjoy this interview was the interview style, which doesn’t really say anything about HG and his ability/attempts to answer in this instance. Some interviews just flow better than others.
It’s a personal opinion, but a strong one because I found it somewhat annoying after I was looking forward to listening.
I didn’t mean to challenge your opinion, LET. I suppose I replied to you because you’d mentioned both the interview and Star Wars.
I can totally appreciate people not being into Star Wars. I had a resurgence of interest just prior to the FA coming out when they aired all the films on tv repeatedly to drum up excitement and get people into the theatres. And I really liked The Force Awakens so I was lured back in.
I have only seen the first Hunger Games and I enjoyed it. At some point I’ll watch the others.
I only just watched the interview after reading the impassioned commentary here and was pleased to hear so many texts covered. I also enjoyed HG’s diplomacy when he wasn’t sure what Julia was talking about but didn’t want to say that. It’s probably my second favourite interview but I will confess I’ve not listened to every interview HG has done.
I can understand how it was disappointing because you’d been looking forward to it and had an expectation of how it might go based on other interviews you’ve listened to. I agree it had a different feel to some others.
Perhaps my comment just highlighted that our responses are often personal preferences. I remember playing one of my favourite artists to my mum and she said ‘why can’t he sing louder?’ She was frustrated that his voice was not mixed at a higher volume. But had it been I may not have liked it as much.
As to watching Star Wars at midnight – by the final one the excitement was fading a bit and I was pushing it to stay awake till the credits!
Hi Annaamel,
I appreciate your reply, and it would be perfectly fine with me if you wanted to challenge my opinion. That’s the beauty of our individuality, also the necessity of sharing our perspectives – to create greater understanding. I also accept it was a combination of things that prompted your response.
One of my son-in-law’s is a massive Star Wars fan and it’s not unknown for him to receive the same gifts on special occasions from people who know that 🙂 I did watch Rogue One, maybe even went to the cinema to see it on a family outing to satisfy my curiosity. It’s interesting how we are drawn to different franchises and yours is far more popular than mine.
My daughter was given the first book of the Hunger Games by a friend, then dragged me to see the first movie. It became a thing and I accompanied her to the next three as well. Something clicked with me during those movies in relation to my experiences and eventually that something turned out to be narcissism. I read the trilogy three times, engaged on discussions online, and also wrote fanfiction dedicated to the franchise. It completely consumed me as I had the ‘identification’, but not the awareness of what exactly I was identifying with at the time. I just knew something rang true about the story that I could relate to my experience. It was something deep and meaningful. Narcissism was its name.
They changed directors after the first movie as a lot of people didn’t enjoy the way it was filmed, and that may have also put a few people off. I remember asking my daughter multiple questions during the movie to try and make sense of what was going on as I hadn’t read the book/s 😛 We might go and see the next installment (prequel) when it comes out.
I think we can agree on HG’s diplomacy and I’m glad you enjoyed the interview. Obviously you got a lot out of it, and that’s the main thing. I was a bit impatient, which may have just been my mood on the day. I think our mood affects our listening at times. I may not have been relaxed enough to appreciate the conversational style of the interview. Definitely expectations have a lot to do with it as well. You hit the nail on the head there. Perhaps going in without any expectations is the best way to appreciate some things. Preset notions can prevent that from happening. A valuable thought to add.
That was a sweet detail you provided about your mother 🙂 She had her own preference which was different to yours, and I like the way you accepted that’s all it was. You didn’t need to change yours just because she had a different opinion. Horses for courses, as they say.
I had to smile at the notion of you trying to stay awake until the credits 🙂 It’s no mean feat at a midnight showing, but your fandom is assured 😉
Hi LET :)) So sparking whenever someone is so dedicated as to even write a fan-fiction about their favorite story! That’s really cool! What is it about??
I watched only the first Hunger Games film. The sadism in it was very painful to digest. People were not just treated as objects but worse… I didn’t draw the parallel to narcissism and psychopathy, as I discovered this topics just recently, but remember thinking; how in the world could humans degrade to such a degree, as it was presented in this story. I’m actually very curious as to how the story ended and that fictional society resolved. What have you taken from the finale??
A parallel to our „non fictional“ society where sadism and violence are promoted as entertainment; in games, films, animation and online platforms. I try to understand the purpose and the NEED for it, in those who create it and in those who watch it (as they do for different reasons, I assume). It’s insane on so many levels…pain and destruction of life, for non understandable reasons, and it only begin to make sense due to HG’s legacy. I wonder how this “entertainment” impact on the psyche of teens and children, who nowadays are widely exposed to it and I wonder what the consequences will be? Or are we already begin to witness them, as in Episode 4, Sam and HG discussed Empathy and its Traits Being Lost. A fascinating topic and conversation! Can’t wait for the continuation!
Hi Jordyguin,
Thanks for your encouragement and enthusiasm 🙂
When it came to the end of the franchise (I read the trilogy after seeing all four movies) I had an incredibly strong sense the story could not end there. Simple as that. While Suzanne Collins tried to tie it off so that there would be no further continuation of Katniss’s story, I could not let it end that way. It had drawn a response in me that was unusual to say the least. First of all, I wanted to revisit the final moments of the collapse of the Capitol in the story, and I envisioned the story from a number of character’s perspectives – so I explored their reactions/responses to that moment and the ongoing fallout from that. In all, I wrote four sequential fanfictions with a fifth not yet completed.
People were definitely treated as objects in the Games, not just for the amusement of the antagonist – President Snow – but also as a means of maintaining control. That element really struck a chord with me. Control combined with the undermining of individuals, ultimately linked to an element of sadism, as you suggest. The saddest part was the inability of people in the Capitol to detect that due to their indulgence and indoctrination. “Bread and circuses”, as they say.
What I took from the finale was that good will triumph over evil (if I can put it as bluntly as that), but that it comes at a cost, and we can never be sure how high that cost will be. Perseverance pays off in the long run, but as with any battle, injuries will occur and scars will remain. In other words, in the context of the story, Katniss (the protagonist) would never be the same, but her achievement in overcoming the evil inherent in her experience meant she had triumphed. It’s really the triumph of the human spirit. In spite of the attempt to quash and destroy it at every turn, the desire for total control could never be achieved.
In a way, the Hunger Games was a reflection on our modern society and Suzanne Collins based it around the dichotomy of switching between TV stations with one showing the war in Iraq and another a reality game. It was combining the two, so war became a game for entertainment and part of the reality stakes for those participating.
Certainly content has become more explicit on all fronts and, personally, I don’t find this healthy, also very debasing for young people who are left with less and less (lowering standards) to aspire to in their lives. It’s like society is reaching for the lowest common denominator instead of the highest. The field of entertainment has a lot to answer for by inspiring and feeding off this trend, I think. Almost always, we have to consider following the money. Someone is benefiting from the trajectory our society is taking. It most certainly isn’t the children.
Thank you for pointing me to Episode 4 of HG’s talks with Sam as I’ve not had the opportunity to listen to all these interviews yet. I will do that over the weekend 🙂
Jordyguin, how beautifully you wrote it:
“A parallel to our “non-fictional” society where sadism and violence are promoted as entertainment; in games, films, animation and online platforms.”
Yesterday I wrote a short review of the series I watched. My summary was twin similar.
For many years, I have been boycotting violence, which people simply get used to – weakening social defense mechanisms, and in the case of predisposed people – causing reactions and encouraging violence. To be a psychopath without feelings, a ruthless mafioso, to kill for fun, treating people like dummy – it just became fashionable…
And worst of all – senseless, stupid aggression without a cause – has already made its way into children’s fairy tales.
Dear LET, from your wonderful reply, it made me want to watch the other parts with this perspective of yours, now! The points you mentioned are definitely very important to wrap our minds around. Thank you for putting them together! I see it in the same way as you – “It’s really the triumph of the human spirit. In spite of the attempt to quash and destroy it at every turn, the desire for total control could never be achieved” 💕😊Amen
Thank you dear Joa!💕
____
„…to kill for fun, treating people like dummy – it just became fashionable…“
The ever present ’up-site down’. This world, this reality shares its space with two opposites where dehumanisation aims to make its way to being viewed as normal. The density of this state for us, but the normal state for them… I don’t know which factor will decide ’who will survive’, but I don’t think this realm will continue the provision of a shared space for both… Time it might take, but what is time, or a lifetime in comparison to the infinite possibilities of evolution and the experience of the entire realm where it all takes place.
I’m sorry to say that I didn’t particularly enjoy this interview. My preference would have been for HG to have a list of characters already chosen in line with the schools of narcissist and for the interviewer to question him on those, as opposed to making suggestions from her own reading list.
Alternatively, she could have provided a list of characters she was curious about for HG to expound on those he wished to when it came time for the interview.
A bit too ad hoc for my liking in this instance.
Due to some other comments, I thought it was going to be a long drawn out interview about Star Wars, but that wasn’t the case so I’ll give it a 5/10 for not tormenting those of us who are not fans of the franchise ) I may have to up my score for the breakdown of Wuthering Heights which HG discussed enthusiastically. I’m wondering if “identify” was the word being searched for in relation to Heathcliff, as I sense HG closely identifies with the character, which would also involve ‘siding with’ him, as opposed to ’empathising’ with him. I’m afraid I didn’t get the ‘joke’ around Heathcliff empathising which Dr Friedman made initially, and I still don’t get it. It’s a legitimate perspective (therefore not a ‘joke’) which she goes on to reiterate by commenting on the need to draw the audience in. I’m giving HG 10/10 for his patience!
Perhaps I just wasn’t in the best mood when I prepared to listen, but if that’s the case, this has put me in a worse mood 😛 And I was looking forward to it as well.
Hi LET, I loved the lists of characters and why they were pegged as they were, I found that fascinating! And I will probably relisten and write it out to watch any characters I haven’t seen before. Maybe there is a transcript, sometimes YT offers that.
I am sorry it wasn’t your favorite though. Some I like better than others also.
AV, glad you enjoyed it, and it’s definitely “horses for courses” … meaning tastes will vary, and in my case I think it was mood, too. I enjoy hearing about the schools and cadres of fictional characters as well as real life people, maybe even more sometimes. Characters are created that are not true to the reality at times, and I find that interesting to consider, too.
All in all, I think I would have liked a more ‘structured’ conversation in dealing with the topic at hand. That would be my preference, but the purpose of the interview definitely makes it worthwhile. It’s a novel (pardon the pun) take on narcissism 🙂
LET,
It reminded me of some of my conversations with HG, I think that is what I liked about it. Yes, unstructured, that comes from me of course, even though I try to be prepared. I believe HG can adapt to most styles of communication and types of people.
Haha, I enjoyed the pun!
Yes, AV, I appreciate your take on the conversational style of interview better now that you have reminded me how conversations generally go, even with an element of preparation. I guess that’s part of the beauty of them – you never know where they are going to take you, and must also allow for a level of vulnerability which is a point of discovery in any conversation. I’m not sure why I was seeking ‘perfection’ on this particular day or with this particular interview, but it’s now a note to myself to develop a greater appreciation for the less structured moments which come with their own benefits and beauty <3
Glad you enjoyed the pun, btw 🙂
“The middle greater sounds like the saviour.” This is very interesting to listen to. Thanks HG and Dr Julia Friedman. I enjoyed this tremendously.
I wonder if the middle greater would also be like the “Antichrist” Looking good, like the saviour, but is actually dark and evil inside.
James Bond, that was interesting. As a child I loved James Bond. I always wanted to be like him (even though I am female). I saw him as a role model. Real James Bond fan I am. ❤️❤️ I have the whole collection, including the last one. No spoilers but it was quite sad at the end.
Can we agree on, the Bond opening sequences (especially 2006-2021🔥) are the best openings in film history! So good!!
Jordyguin, for sure. The best Bond scene ever… Spectre. The Mexican day of the dead.
Amazing.
Agreed. Love that scene!
Here is the link to the Bond Spectre opening scene on YouTube.
Anna, it is a great opening scene! I laughed at the end of this clip “grandma’s settee” came to my mind 🙂
No way! Stop it!!!❤️🔥!!! I have a little crisis over here about traveling to Mexico in autumn or not (I must book it now if I want to go, but I’m not sure) And you’re giving me this!!! Banana!!! You and the Spectre opening make me wanner go so much! I miss Mexico. An awesome place! Día de los Muertos is a great omen🔥 Death is a good adviser in setting the aims straight..
@anna
I’m watching this and trying to take it seriously but my brain:
“The neckline of his shirt must be so brown from all the sweat he’s been sweating in Mexico”
Daniel Craig is my favorite Bond, he’s the closest to the books Bond.
HG, why do you think new shows where most characters are well drawn narcissists of different stripes, like Succession and The White Lotus are so popular in the US? Do you think we are seeing through them better as a society ?
It is entertaining.
Btw, HG, I don’t think you are losing that much by not continuing with Succession. The plot and actions of the characters are repetitive. The White Lotus, on the other hand, is brilliant (my favorite British expression). And the second season is a good mystery to boot.
Last we spoke you hadn’t seen You. Have you now? It’s all about narcissists and psychopaths. Well acted. Last episode set in London;)
Darth rebelled because the emporer caused narcissistic injury to Darth . He criticised him and tried to take control of his children.
The emperor also tried to kill Luke Skywalker. This was also a massive injury as Anakin aka Darth saw Luke as an extension of himself. So then it was either him or the emperor. Darth saved his son (extension of himself) and sent the emperor into a free fall of death.
A-a-! The Emperor was pushing Luke to activate his dark side, to join the Emperor and Vader. Until Vader, duh! suspended his status as a Greater and sent the emperor into a free fall. And along came Disney! The free fall of the Emperor and those sequels have one thing in common — they’re unexplainable… (except „Rouge One“ was really good!)
Star wars isn’t real. It is fictional.
The characters don’t really exist. It is just a fantasy.
Congratulations, you’ve won both The Stating the Obvious Trophy and The Missed The Point Completely Award.
PPPhahaaaaa!! Banana! HG! I can’t!! I love you!!!!! You made me laugh so much! Phew…
Jolly good.
That’s great news. Do I get a golden trophy? 🏆🏆🏆
😂😂
What?
NOOOOOOOOO!!!
Anakin – a middle lesser?! Oh no! I foreshadow millions of voices to cry out in terror…The realisation of; damn! we rooted for a victim narc…justified his behavior…gave him complexity he never had.!? Indeed, the inconsistency of how the character is written. Given your insight. I would even divide Anakin’s character in to three now. In The Phantom Menace he is just a friendly, helpful child with big dreams.
I don’t even know what to think about The Jedi Order, now – traveling throughout the galaxy, detecting force sensitive children, taking them away from their families and raising them to become „worriers for peace“. Isn’t there a contradiction also? With rules in place such as; a Jedi is not allowed to have intimate relationships and children, in order to become effective knight of justice. It’s all decided for them. A huge lack of control environment, isn’t it?!
Surely some children would benefit from it, as they would be removed from a potential more worse abuse at home and given a better life opportunity, but still „this or that is forbidden for a Jedi“, make me suspicious.
Some of Yoda’s famous lines such as „Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering“ – there should’ve been a deeper dive in to this topic. Just giving the dogma of; don’t fear, don’t hate, don’t get angry..(draw your lightsaber and kill with positive feelings, you know!) is not helpful. Remind me of clueless parenting.
What if The Jedi Order was clueless in their good intentions, which lead to creating narcissists? And in fact, every organised religion, cult or spiritual movement is created by those (narcs, psychopaths) to begin with – who seek control collectively over as many individuals as possible. Why would a Jedi Order be different in that regard!?
Dang, was gonna listen but now I know already! 😉
Nonono, go listen! You rascal!😘😘
Hahaha, I will. I was joking around, thanks for taking it in stride!
I’ve never watched a single Star Wars film. Or James Bond
It shows.
Because I’m so normal?
No, in your status as a lush!
Only just dawned on me what your response means HG haha yes maybe I should have watched JB at least.
I was forced to watch Star Wars by various people over the years, not my genre at all. The Bond movies are more my taste so I have enjoyed a few of those, Daniel Craig is my favorite Bond. A piece of trivia, I have a very dapper Chihuahua named James Bond, my kids picked his name, it suits him.
awww cutie AV
Vic, please tell me you were also forced to wear Star Wars gear, as you watched! Would be the case with me😘 Lightsaber, Blaster, Boba Fett armor, Chewbacca plushie next to you! You’d be converted my dear😈!!!
No, not as a child, once my son was interested in them, I had to watch again the ones I’d seen as a young person, with my brother or a boyfriend, and all the new ones also. And we did have our share of light saber battles, figurines, Star Wars Halloween costumes, plush toys, Lego ships etc. One of my grandsons currently has a cool Darth Vader mask, voice changer and all, I have worn that…did not go to the dark side even then… 😂
AV – you took the words right out of my mouth!
“I was forced to watch Star Wars by various people over the years, not my genre at all.”
Same as mine! N1 undividedly managed what we watch. For example, when we rented videos, he would choose two and I would choose one. The first, we were to watch his films – horrors, thrillers, thrillers, crimes, documentaries, for example, places of extermination or the reign of dictators. My costume film, drama, biography or comedy – I usually watched alone. (He fell asleep or didn’t want to watch anymore or had something to do).
In addition I was “obliged” to show enthusiasm and watch with him and our (his) friends all:
– professional boxing galas
– matches
– cabaret marathons.
It was even worse with music – he dominated it in about 95%, and he listened to it every day and a lot.
During the last years of our relationship, I often went out on bike and rode in the woods for hours or took a blanket, spread it somewhere in the deep grass or on a haystack or in a hunting pulpit – I was lying, reading a book or newspaper, looking at the clouds, making bouquets of wildflowers, I smoked cigarettes and enjoyed being alone at the moment.
My gosh, I remember that when I parted with him, I reveled in my own choices, calm and quiet 🙂 Not long, because then the N2 era came 🙂 Although he was not as expansive in this regard as N1. A completely different type of man.
—–
I watched James Bond with Sean Connery, Roger Moore and Pierce Brosnan. I remember with fondness. We were living alone with my sister at the time. They were light and pleasant films – perfect for lazy mornings, funny comments about “heroic” feats of heroes and chatting with her at breakfast 🙂
Hi Joa,
I love action flicks but just could not connect with SW’s.
Neither of my ex’s controlled what we watched, I was lucky in that I suppose, though they controlled a lot of other things. That sounds so narc-like, watch his two first and then sleep or leave for yours. They can be so horrible.
I grew up watching boxing, still love it when I can find it, the real thing. Though I’ve heard none of it’s really real, I don’t seek it out.
The music like that would’ve driven me crazy.
I had that between time of calm and quiet between mine also, it was one of the best times of my life, to this day. I am so happy for you to be away from him Joa!! Life is amazing now too, isn’t it!
Haha! Vader mask voice changer even! Cool!🥰 I know every line of this films, I’d be a fun babysitter for your boy😄
AV, I have to correct. I wrote unfairly about N1.
For the first 7 years of our relationship, I was the one staring at him like a painting. He was and still is an amazing man. Not without reason, thousands of people love/adore/follow him. And when I wrote thousands, I mean thousands. Although I also know his shortcomings, which are hidden from many people.
In any case, I was the one, who allowed and even pressured our relationship to focus on him. I met him, when I was 17, I myself – internally – was just looking for and “building myself”. For sure, the N1 helped me with that. Although younger than me, he was my support, refuge, the center of my world, he was my confidence, my happiness, he was so “grown up”, desired by other girls and women, he was… beautiful and… he endeared himself to people so easily 🙂 We experienced a lot great things and adventures. Life with him was intense, colorful, wonderful. I felt great.
But… when I finally began to see myself, develop, want for myself, desire – he did not allow me to balance myself and him in our relationship. Initially, he was 80% (or maybe even more) and I was 20%. He let me get to 30% and wouldn’t let go. I was aiming for 50%-50%.
What I had written earlier sounded like an accusation, like it was his fault. No, they were just facts. But the fault – I believe it was on my side.
Boxing – never again! 🙂
But yes, I remember cheering and shared emotions during boxing fights 🙂 I myself prefer a different kind of entertainment.
Joa,
No problem, I would not judge your N1, I took it only as facts.
@Alexis
You’re not missing out on much
Hahah I know this to be true. My sister loved them, I could never understand why Witch?
According to HG, this is because I’m a lush! Smearing/projection at its finest! hahahah
@Alexis
Each to their own I guess… I’ve watched Hell boy 2 about 6 times and there’s probably people who don’t understand that
I didn’t know what lush is, I had to look it up and it’s someone who is sexually attractive? I don’t get the joke
But I believe it
No, a lush is an old soak, a boozer, a plonk. AS2016 is often on the sauce you see.
Witch you’re right about a lush! It is someone who is sexually attractive, although HG’s interpretation is also correct in terms of meaning hahah I’m not a lush in any sense though. He was just projecting about the latter. Hahaha
I’ve not seen the film you mentioned, the only movie I’ve ever watched several times is, “severance”. It’s a dark comedy, a bit on the scary side for me so I can only watch during daylight hours. I believe there may be more than one movie with this title. I’m referring to the one with Danny dyer in it. It’s hilarious and well worth watching. Think I may just do that again this afternoon.
HG:
And she doesn’t share it with the rest of the class!
Outrageous!
@HG
Oh!! 🤣
“Sexually attractive” I’m so done with myself
Oh no
I hate spoilers, just damn mean that is!
I couldn’t be bothered to read it all, so there is hope for me yet!
😂😂
The spoiler is placed systematically in the first sentence, babe. The rest is my paranoia💁♀️
Is there hope for you? Have you tried to move pencils with your Jedi mind tricks, as a kid? If you did, there is😋
Hahaha, yes, damn mean! 😂
Thank you HG! After your first interview with Julia Friedman, where you discussed the creators of art and literature often being narcissists, I was hoping that you would do an interview discussing characters. And this one did not disappoint.
For Lower Lesser, what do you think about William Schumann (the old shoe) in the movie Wag the Dog, an American political satire? The character is stupid and violent with no societal usefulness, except the use made of him by other characters in the movie (most of whom are also narcissists). He is played by Woody Harrelson in an ensemble cast that includes Robert De Niro, Dustin Hoffman, William H. Macy and a very young Kirsten Dunst.
I am not familiar with that character, I shall have to examine further.
I note, with interest, and, amusement, the added word “fictional” 😉