Knowing the Narcissist : Spanked
The Ultra Narcissist met his victim in a club.
She agreed to head home with him.
How did they both get what they wanted and needed?
Understand the power dynamic between the two.
87 thoughts on “Knowing the Narcissist : Spanked”
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Dear Mr Tudor,
I believe, if it’s not two consenting adults, then you have a problem.
I don’t, they may have.
HG, your reply brought me great amusement, thank you for being you ❤️ xxx
Dear Mr Tudor,
Haha, spoken like an true ultra
Reading the comments here is very interesting. Especially about age and also male/female roles.
What is interesting is that many males who are in positions of power in their career actually fantasise about the very opposite. Not having control. This is why many go to a dominatrix.
Anna,
From what HG has said here and there, also some women in high stress positions enjoy this kind of release.
Thank you for your transparent additions to this thread, what you’ve written has been interesting.
A Victor, glad you find it interesting.
This kind of behaviour is not just limited to humans. Many animals have bizarre sexual practices too.
I was sexually abused as a child and my first sexual experience was BDSM. Sometimes I wonder if love does exist in the world at all. I see it to be an evil place and sadly I am a misanthropist.
I have seen true kindness in people and seen light in their eyes. What I have learned is that there are a few good people. Many are wicked indeed. We need more of the good and less of the bad.
The ultimate control, is being able to control yourself, and not others.
Anna,
There are some times that I wish I could take away someone’s bad experiences, your comment made me wish I could do this for you. Some things we have experienced are more than anyone should have to.
Interesting about the animals, I’ve heard a little of this, but not much, from my kids.
I agree about controlling ourselves, it is all we can do.
Thanks again.
Dear Anna,
Truer words were never spoken ….
“The ultimate control, is being able to control yourself, and not others”.
‘Self control’ is one of the hardest functions for humans. Something so simple, yet so difficult. A dog does better haha
From what I’ve seen, ‘self gratification’ always wins over ‘self control’ ! Self control is temporary, it’s not sustainable, whereas self gratification is always the reward and easy to obtain. Humans are a selfish lot !
Now for that second piece of chocolate 🍫 yummmm 🤭hehe
I also like to dominate in sex – I understand it as “lead”. And I like the sudden twists, when he starts “leading”. I can be both dominant and submissive.
I wouldn’t cry if the man I love spanked me (it happened a few times N1), a human in euphoria and excitement, when he is relaxed with someone close to him, triggers various reflexes. However, if he focused on it too much – I would consider it a sign of… boredom. So it would infuriate me 🙂 Either I would turn his attention back to ME or I would laugh and the atmosphere would settle down.
And yes, I agree, high stress perfectly “melts” into sex. Especially if it’s someone you love and hate at the same time – i.e. you have maximum emotions for him.
My ex showed he was bored, and was boring. If he needed to spank me to alleviate this, he never tried. He needed other partners more than anything I guess.
Joa and others involved in this conversation, and all haha,
I agree, some women are idiots, I have had idiotic behavior at times in my life, does that not make me an idiot in those moments? I think it does. Have I always helped the power dynamic generally between men and women in my choices? No. Have I been in relationships with unequal power balance? Pretty much always. Your description of your childhood spankings mirrored much of my experience as a child, to the point that I don’t remember much of it, my siblings have shared things they knew and saw. It makes this topic reactive for me, all of this does, all the way around.
When my husband left and I realized my personal freedom, some number of years later, once my heart started to recover, I was never going to be trapped like that again. The assumed power dynamic depicted in the picture, though I have not experienced that specific situation nor would I have done so, took me back to all of that from my childhood instantly. Being here and seeing that photo many times, I have become less reactive to it. I still don’t like it, and I’m okay with that. I still don’t like that people want to hurt or be hurt in the name of love, to me it hits right where my mother forced her “love” on me and these “spankings” I endured at her hand were part of that “love”. Nothing loving, nor for me sexual, in that sort of situation.
Being here I have learned that for some it is different, that’s okay, I don’t want to know about it except to better understand the narcissist/empath dynamic. I understood your reaction, your reasons and your assumptions, mine were similar, that was all I was saying in my first reply to you, that to me it’s okay for us to have that sort of reaction. Is this a safe place to state it? I think so.
This is not a topic that needs arguing, in my mind, because different people want different things in this area, for their own reasons. I can admit that my reasons reflect directly my upbringing, and I suspect that others do also. So in an odd way, even with our knowledge, we may all still be trapped. I hate the idea of that. Maybe at some point it won’t be so. But I’m still not going to let anyone spank me.
I thank you for sharing your thoughts on this photo Joa.
AV, after childhood, where I was beaten, I never let anyone beat me.
After 7-8 years of relationship with N1, he would tugging my clothes of jealousy and choke me (I wasn’t even scared, I provoked him even more to show me his face – I wanted to look his face straight in the eye). He didn’t keep self-control. This event was the nail in the coffin of this relationship.
He couldn’t control himself = he’s weak. I couldn’t look at him the way I used to…
—–
N2 never hit me. He wouldn’t dare. In fact… it’s a pity he didn’t. It would have been much easier for me to throw him out of my life. I wouldn’t even want to waste my time talking to him.
Yes, N2 had much better self-control than N1 – even though he controlled a lot more of his evil.
Joa,
No one has beaten me except my mother, she choked me also. You are right, weak, she couldn’t control herself. She didn’t even try to, she let us have it all, all her fury. I believe the reason she never finished the choking was because my dad would’ve learned what she was doing, or the authorities. I cannot see violence as sexual, it doesn’t compute for me. I’m okay with that.
It’s so disgusting.
This picture disgusts me every time. Every time I wonder, why women are such idiots and allow such nonsense? Every time I wonder, what emptiness and boredom people must feel to need theater instead of love? How far apart do two people have to be to prioritize stupid “fun” over tenderness and joy of intimacy?
Maybe it’s just simple copulation… Maybe…
Not for me. Sex is love, the beauty of intimacy, fusion. It is tenderness, trust, full devotion. For this time, for this moment, I am yours and you are mine, we are the closest we can be…
The rest is just nonsense. And a waste of time.
Joa
Wow. Disgusting and idiots to describe people who view and engage in sex in a different way than you choose for yourself? The “I am yours and you are mine”, “full devotion”, “fusion” scenario could be considered just as much fantasy, nonsense, and a waste of time. Especially given that it landed you here in the end despite your beliefs.
Theatre?
It could be said that anyone engaging in sex with a narc has played a starring role in said theatre. It IS called the sex “act” after all.
I couldn’t agree more NA.
Joa,
I rarely speak out on here other than in a supportive way. But I do struggle when people have difficulty accepting and understanding that other people may experience the world differently and I don’t even mean in a narc/empath way.
Enjoying sex in a different way is really no different to one person enjoying skydiving and another preferring to sit there and read a good book.
We are all guilty of thinking our way is best and not fully understanding why another would prefer an alternative. We do all judge others to a greater or lesser degree. And even as I type this, I feel annoyed with myself because I know me typing this to you is no different really. Because in the same way you’re failing to understand other peoples preferences, I feel like I’m failing to understand why you fail to accept their differences when really that’s not too far off from what you’re thinking about sexual preferences. Blimey Hahhah I hope that makes sense!
I recall as a child though, because my mum gave us fairly regimented mealtimes being absolutely flabbergasted when I went to a friends house and they had their lunch at 1:30pm and we had ours at 12. We think other people see and do things through exactly the same world view as us, but that really isn’t the case and sex is no different.
No funny comments from you either Hg please haha
Alexissmith, what you wrote is what caused me to hesitate to write a moment ago to Joa, who’s “judging” who? There is a place for both, all, variance, and we each must live with our own choices, in all things. It can be touchy to state an honest opinion sometimes, if it may go against the grain. Or not, if we feel strongly enough.
Agree. A place for all opinions. However, as we’ve seen recently on the “Co-d thread”, where strong opinions/examples were be considered inaccurate, combative, and worthy of heated debate, the negative tilt here ,and direct label of idiot, does not appear (thus far) to have caused the same level of ire.
Hmm
NA, true. While I would not have used some of the wording Joa used, I did understand what she was saying and I have felt sadness over this article every time I’ve seen it. I didn’t take it that Joa was speaking to anything other than the photo with the age discrepancy and the activity taking place and with regard women’s views of themselves and men’s treatment as a result. Had this been a couple where the power dynamic was equal in the photo, I would likely have responded differently. Though perhaps not given my personal history with “spankings”. I do not believe women are idiots but I do believe women who accept what is transpiring in the photo with the unequal power balance are not helping themselves or any other woman. That was what I was responding to.
You’re so right AV, it can be difficult to state an honest opinion and we all do have our own views about various aspects of our lives and those of others. I am definitely guilty of that too. I try not to be but I guess different genetics, different environmental influences impact us all and cause us to see the world largely from our own perspective. But I do reflect on that from time to time, especially since finding HG’s site and seeing how stark the different perspectives can truly be.
And we must all do what is right for us. No one size fits all. We don’t have to agree with or like some of the choices others make but learning about them and understanding them, more importantly just accepting them for what they are i find quite important in being free.
Yes, that different perspectives piece can be a mind-blower at times for me!
It appears (to me) there is a lot assumed about this photo that is driving emotions.
Age discrepancy? I can’t tell the ages of these people from this photo. Power imbalance?
Is it because it shows a man and woman and it is perceived that a man automatically holds all/more of the power in this, or any, exchange?
It is not known who initiated this and why.
Is it assumed there was not consent by both parties?
NA, yes, a lot of assuming, a visceral reaction more than thinking about it even. What you say is true.
Speaking only for myself, my assumptions, no one else.
NA,
One other thought I had. This photo itself brought a reaction for me, prior to reading the article. But when taken with the article, my reactions were confirmed and that was in fact the point of the article. With narcissists, there is an unequal power balance and I have allowed, accepted and even encouraged it, to this point in my life, because I did not understand this. So assumptions were made and, in this case, confirmed. As well as the why behind the scenes, which I, for one, needed to know about.
AV, that’s what I meant – equal power dynamics. I really like the term you used.
—–
Unfortunately, I think some women are idiots and I’m not going to pretend otherwise. I ignore them or gently, with a smile, leave them.
Idiot. This is definitely one of my favorite epithets. I use it from a few to a dozen times a day – also in relation to myself, if I don’t like some of my actions or the direction of my thoughts. Quite often I have to swear and lower the level of this idiot in me 😊
I am constantly amazed (and delighted at the same time), that people tolerate me, like me, appreciate my company, and on top of that, they tell me that I am “so good” – though I say that I am not and that they confuse good with honest.
—–
Two weeks ago my daughter attended the “Pyrkon” festival. It’s a nationwide festival of fantasy – costumes (my daughter was a musketeer, she looked wonderful! 😊), meetings with writers, creators of computer games, directors; performances, shows, magic tricks; stands with everything related to fantasy. She spent all her money, which she had a lot of. I understand it perfectly – she was on a wave of excitement.
The school year ended last week in my country. My daughter went on vacation. I topped up her bank account. Yesterday she called me and said: “Imagine if I spent over half my money on 3 necklaces. Are you proud of me?” I replied, “Idiocy.” She was laughing. I smiled too 😊
Joa, thank you for sharing that fun story about your daughter, really great. I would and have used that word in the same sort of setting.
I would like to also say that your comment to Alex about perspectives hits home for me also and I love so many of your comments for that very reason, the different threads that you so often pull in and weave together. It is a gift you have I think.
Alex, it should also be noted that human is not of monolith.
I usually have several different perspectives on an issue. I can argue well for any perspective. I can describe, for example, 3 different perspectives one after the other, sometimes they are completely opposite, and each will be written with dedication and passion.
I can write to order – as you like. Just tell me a few words, a minute, sometimes two is enough – and I will feel it, understand it and write it.
Unless it’s something I stigmatize and categorically oppose. You can see it instantly on my face.
—–
I have two dominant perspectives on life. For as long as I can remember, I’ve been jumping between them. I know what I want, I use both.
NA,
Interesting that you picked up on age here. The assumption being that because the man in the photo is older then he wields the power? (Possible general assumption). I have had three long term relationships with men older than me (13 yrs,18 yrs, and the longest 8 yrs older). Age doesn’t equate to power in my view. What if the female in the photo was a narc and the male an empath? The assumption then would be the female has the power, and even then, that would be nothing to do with age or gender. Cultural differences would also feed in to assumptions made around this picture.
Consent (full, not coerced) would be the guiding principle in this for me.
Just to clarify, to me the man in the photo looks older than the woman, who looks quite young, in my opinion. The age difference itself does not denote power but when combined with the stance of the each and what each is doing, I read it as an off kilter power situation. It was an assumption which was then reinforced by the article. Also, my personal history with spankings played into my assumption in the matter, where the spanker was always the one in power.
I appreciate having another viewpoint, assumptions are never wise.
While I still don’t “like” the photo, it does get it’s point across.
AV, thank you for your kind words. I also like reading your and other girls’ comments. So many good threads, and thanks to them – thoughts.
Gift? Yes, it’s a gift and a curse. I love it, but I’d rather never get it.
The creative process, lyricism, symbolism, self-examination and other perspectives, art of various kinds – this is a response to traumas and a form of dealing with them.
TS, I disagree that consent is the guiding principle here. It is at this point that we come back to the intention of my first post, in which I used the word “idiot”.
When I listen to my female friends, I find consent doesn’t matter in most cases.
What matters is the balance of power and responsibility. If there is no balance, you hear stories like: “I agreed because… (otherwise he would have found a mistress, he wanted it, I am so liberated and I “devour” men like pieces of bread, blah, blah, blah). Is consent under pressure (of a man, social, your own inflated ego) is really consent? This is what annoys me so much, that I want to use that word starting with “i” again. Not to demean a woman, but to wake her up! And then you hear stories after 5, 10, 20, 30 years: “Actually, I didn’t like it at all”, “Actually, that’s what made me lose interest in sex”, “He could never satisfy me”, and the mean ones: “That asshole every time he cum after 2 minutes.”, “What can he do with that little dick?”, “He still just wanted oral sex, because normally he couldn’t, hopeless.”
If you loved someone and were as close as possible with them, did you enjoy sex together (despite possible flaws or indispositions in this area), or if you felt satisfaction from these close-ups, you liked everything you did together – could you ever utter such insulting words about your ex-partner??? You would never think of it. Woman, after all, it was you who consented to intercourse with him, not feeling satisfaction from these intercourses…
Consent is only when I WANT IT (because it fucking turns me on, because it pleases me and the partner I love) and HE WANTS IT. Alternatively, consent is when we are curious and want to try.
Sex is control because it’s so important to humans. And this control is exercised not only by men, but also by women – who consent, even to what they do not want. That’s why balance is so important – an even level of control. And then you can really “play” in domination by both sides.
Sex is the joy of meeting together. Sex is my satisfaction and sense of the other party’s needs. Sex is about choosing those elements that will give both of you a sense of power and fulfillment.
And one more thing. What title would you give to the photo we are discussing? “Love”? I don’t. More like: “The boss takes advantage of the naivety of the young assistant.”
PS A man’s age can be determined by looking at his hand and clothes. A man would have to be extremely unlucky to have a hand like that at the age of 20.
PS 2 I wrote the text 2 weeks ago, but I’m translating it only now. At this moment, I feel like saying: And do what you want and how you want 🙂 Only then don’t claim, that you were used, hurt and are victims… You gave your consent.
Hi Joa,
No problem about the little delay. You amaze me with your ability to convey what you mean in the way you do whilst having to translate at the same time. I couldn’t do it!
My comment to NA above was really to do with age not necessarily equating to control based on my experience with older men. The control for me would be related to the personality or ‘grouping’ of the man and woman rather than to age specifically.
I also pondered the negative connotation associated with the older man & younger woman pairing as opposed to older woman &younger man. You see that less often but it’s less frowned upon I think, it’s viewed as more of a genuine relationship. Again, culturally there might be differences there.
I’ve led a sheltered life I think. Only 5 sexual partners, all within relationships. Never had a one night stand. Attraction doesn’t seem to work that way for me. I can appreciate a guy might be good looking, but it would just be ‘ he’s a good looking guy’. I wouldn’t feel attraction to him at first. It takes time for me to feel attraction, he needs to interest me as a person first. When I first got here my assumption was that all empaths are like that. They aren’t. NA very patiently explained her views about sex and intimacy and the fact that for others, the two don’t need to be related. My own attraction doesn’t work that way but I can now appreciate that sex can be viewed very differently and there is no right way or wrong way but consent is always key.
Totally agree, consent with the narcissist isn’t worth the paper it’s written on because there is no boundary recognition. What the narc says and what he does are two different things. In general terms though, in non narc relationships, I think as long as there is genuine consent between two sexual partners, genuine trust and respect, then the sexual arena is open to all kinds of exploration.
In terms of spanking my view would be the same. If both parties enjoy that aspect, then why not? I’d be terrible in either role, spanker or spankee haha. Tried it once and I just started laughing so we had to park that one. Fortunately me laughing didn’t put my partner off, he just laughed as well and we moved on. That’s another thing. Sex is often portrayed so seriously and in such a choreographed way a lot of the time. There’s such a lot of pressure to live up to that I think. The reality for me is that it’s more about communication, what partners like, what they don’t, trial and error. There should be no embarrassment or shame when you get it wrong. I’ve slid off the bed before now. I laughed at that as well. But imagine if I didn’t feel able to laugh at that? Imagine if it became more like a film set. How are you going to relax then?
I am wandering off topic. I agree with your thoughts on how some women have the potential to devalue themselves whether that be from social pressure, media influence, or just not feeling able to communicate their own needs. There I hope that women do wake up to what sex is supposed be about. For me its about both partners enjoying each other equally.
Xx
Alex, notice I was referring to the picture I see. For this particular photo.
And then, I wrote how I see it.
I am no stranger to sex games. I am a very open person in sex and curious about many things and experiences. Sex is joy and “life”. But I can’t see it in this photo.
Indeed, I have my ossified view of sex – as something inseparable from love. This is a basic condition for me – I have to love to be able to open up and give myself fully.
I am also friends with women, who treat sex “easier” than I do. One women even too lightly and even morally reprehensible (she hurts other people…). We’ve known each other for decades, I’m the confidant of all her “feats” that I’ve always stigmatized (only this). I kept her away when I was involved with N2. She would have no qualms about sleeping with him. He too. She has never met him, although she knows almost everything about him. I ended this friendship recently, after 25 years. From day to day. I don’t respond to “I miss you” and other crap. This “friendship” took up a lot of my time. I feel relieved. I’m not going back to that. It will never work again.
But back to the topic – I believe that women’s lack of self-respect translates into such treatment of all of us by men.
It has nothing to do with freedom in sex, which in good, partner conditions brings a lot of joy and satisfaction.
JOA,
I share that aspect with you, that I must love to be open and give myself to that person, without that feeling, that emotional connect…there’s no desire, no need to express my love and therefore, no intimacy is needed, nor wanted in me. Sex is very mental and emotional to me, and it’s physical last. Xx
Rebecca, I feel the same.
Hm… Joa is right
As someone who used to be in the BDSM scene, I can say. Sex should be about love and respect.
Indeed, lack of boundaries, lack of self respect, well it allows all kinds of things.
Sometimes eyes can be opened to realise the kind of person you are inside. If you look deep enough you may not like what you see.
As long as everything is between consenting adults this is fine.
The problem is narcissistic abuse is exactly that
If you loved me… you’d do it. Pressurised into doing something you do not like, that disgusts you, that hurts you. That leaves emotional scars…. hmm…
Well, there you go.
Do not make excuses for bad people
Have boundaries
Self love and respect.
Do you want love or pleasure?
BDSM is NOT love!
Look up the name James-Robert Davis. He is a former ‘cult leader’ who was on Instagram and other online sites advertising a so-called ‘BDSM lifestyle’ under the name ‘House of Cadifor’.
He was arrested and charged with 40 serious offences including: causing sexual servitude; assault occasioning actual bodily harm; and intimidation with intent to cause harm.
He preyed on teenage girls on social media, including some of whom did not have family support or had mental issues.
He is now facing imprisonment with lengthy prison terms.
You are correct, Anna, BDSM is not love. It is not consensual in all cases either.
Exactly, NA. Yes, as you read. This photo is disgusting to me.
Why? Do I see sex on it? No. I see domination.
A young girl or young woman. Schoolgirl? Subordinate employee? …Daughter?
Desk. Chair. School. Office. Work or home.
Elderly man. Dressed (like a peacock) in typical attributes, wrongly associated with true maturity, position, power – collared shirt, tie, belt. A well-tailored jacket and an expensive watch are missing. Teacher? Boss? …Father?
Do I see in this picture care, love, the desire to be close to the other person as a whole (mind, feelings, body)? No. All I see here is a guy slapping a young girl’s backside. Nothing else.
—–
Why do I think this kind of behavior is idiotic? It’s permission (for further and further domination). It is the objectification of the woman (only the submissive body – the object of satisfaction).
What’s next? Whip. Okay. Handcuffs. Okay. Fun. Anal. Okay. Smothering. Okay. I yanked your clothes during a dinner argument. Sorry, I rushed. Okay. Pornos. Okay. Treason on the side. Psss, hush. Okay. You bore me. Okay. Bring a friend. Okay. Pump up your tits. Okay. Make your lips bigger. Okay. Glue on extra hair and eyelashes. Okay. You’re getting old. Okay…
The objectification of women on social media. The objectification of women in advertising. The objectification of women in film. The objectification of women at school, at home, on the street. Item. Body. Another body. Another ass. More tits. Slapped. Kicked. Strangled.
No. I do not let.
And finally… it could be your daughter, mine daughter and also your daughter.
STOP.
—–
Sex act? Copulation? Of course. In animals. Yes, we are animals (although some of them can also love beautifully (look in the dog’s eyes), be faithful, be tender, protect the herd and offspring). I still have feelings. I still have a mind. You take it all or you get nothing.
Sex, sex, empty sex is pouring out everywhere. Tits. Butts. Bellies. Mouth. Nails. Lashes. Is a woman just a body? Women, why are you wading into this tight corner?
—–
No, NA. I didn’t land here in the end (end?) DESPITE my beliefs. Do you think, I should take beliefs someone else’s?
Please, don’t put the blame on me like men do.
This one is depressed, that one is traumatized, that one is hyperactive, that one goes to therapy, that one has taken antidepressants, the classifications and varieties of “mental illnesses and disorders” are popping up like mushrooms after rain. As if no one is looking further – why is this happening to our society? It’s just an effect. Quick. Strongly. Much. Who is imposing this narrative?
Hey woman, stop where you’re standing. Look around. Celebrate this little moment. Do you just want a hug?
I landed here, because I wanted to understand:
– yourself – even better. I understand myself best, when I write and speak; think. I like feedback, but it’s not important to me.
– you/his/her – from the other side. I am constantly expanding my horizon.
I landed here, because I’ve been drawn to “dark” places all my life. Only when I know and understand them, can I continue to shape myself, choose my own path. I can counteract. I can help myself and others.
But what attracted me first, was the similarity. Someone, somewhere, on some forum about narcissism, described HG – how he “opens” a woman. “Interesting, a man who acts like me, I’ll have to check it out.” Funny, right? I am very glad, that these few sentences about HG caught my attention then.
“Despite my beliefs.” My beliefs are mine. They are my essence. I landed here, because DESPITE the abuse, unworthy behavior, lack of feelings and simple decency of another man, I still want to understand him.
At this stage in my life, my beliefs have not changed. Only minor modifications – on the surface.
I didn’t land here, because I felt pain and sadness (that wasn’t the reason) – if it’s just me – I feel alive. It’s stagnation that “kills” me, not feelings.
Have I played a role in the theater? I don’t.
I gave my mind, feelings, energy and body. I expected the same. Respect my mind, my feelings and my body. I will respect your mind, your feelings and your body. I received a strange spectacle, that I did not fully understand.
I wrote – “for this moment, I am yours and you are mine” – but you allowed yourself to miss the first part. Yes, at this moment we are for each other, at this moment we create our own space, our own intimate world, at the moment when our bodies intertwine, the outside world ceases to exist for a moment. This is how I understand love and sex, which are inextricably linked – and I can’t and don’t want to change that.
I had sex without love once in my life. Mistake.
I was drunk. Rivalry (I won – but what?). The desire to make up for the “injury” of a friend (too long to explain this stupidity). Three hopeless reasons.
It was… bland. Light physical effort, exchange of bodily fluids, he in euphoria – me not, unsatisfied greatest need (of closeness). My only desire during this “act” (yes, that was the act) was to end it as soon as possible and say goodbye. I never wanted to do something like that again.
—–
Sorry if I offended anyone with the word “idiot”. It annoys me, that women give themselves up so easily. Because of loneliness. That he wouldn’t leave (!). Because of appreciation. Because of fear. Because of envy. Because of competition. Because of being bored. For the benefit. For opinions. For the facade. Because I was drunk. Because I’m awesome. Because he insisted. Thousands of reasons. This affects all of us, it is through this prism that men begin to perceive women. We see ourselves in this light…
What’s left for men? Just take and change.
For me, the only reason for sex is love for another person, the desire to get as close to him as possible. I don’t need spanking for this.
Sex is only part of love.
Admittedly, I also feel a desire to dominate in a relationship with a man (Narcissist) – to a very high degree. But my dominance is of a different kind (psychological). I don’t want to be higher. You should know, that we are equal. I will hold this position. Even aiming at yourself to upset your balance.
With men, who don’t try to humiliate me, trample me, I don’t feel this need.
Since my teenage years, I’ve also been using the reversal principle. Are you proposing something I don’t want? Ok. But first, let’s switch roles. You first. Then I will agree to it too (I’m bluffing – I know perfectly well, that I won’t agree anyway, if I don’t want something, I don’t want it and he knows it, because he lets it go – the way is open, try with another women, adieu). So, in reversal principle – imagine this photo in reverse: a young boy or young man sprawled on a desk, bare backside sticking out, shorts down around his thighs. An elderly woman is standing next to it. Dressed in the attributes of a mature, strong, well-positioned woman. Mother? Aunt? Teacher? Manageress? Boss? The boy bending over in anticipation of the slaps, that the woman is about to give him… Nice? If you think so, you belong to a small group of people. If you think, it’s weird and distasteful for you to dominate a young boy – why do you accept the other way around?
—–
There is another aspect, to why this photo may seem disgusting to me. Private aspect. In my family home, I was spanked on my bare backside. I was forced to take off my panties and stick my backside out in anticipation of being hit with a belt or thong – swallowing my own tears (later I didn’t cry anymore, I looked at the wall with contempt and waited for the end). Sometimes the waiting time was extended. Sometimes we both waited with my sister (I tried to focus attention on myself, in different ways). Nacked backside – more humiliating, right? My tears were tears of humiliation. The physical pain was less important at that point. Been and gone.
So… dear man, realize that before you is a grown woman, not a 6-year-old girl. You understand? I’m asking, do you understand? NEVER FUCKING AGAIN.
—–
I am your mother. I am your daughter. I am your sister. But in a relationship, first of all, I’m your woman.
You are my father. You are my son. You are my brother. But in a relationship, first of all, you’re my man.
All these roles, that each of us plays in various types of relationships must be wisely balanced. You go too far in any direction and this ship starts to wobble and go into whirlpools. Therefore, no, I am no longer a little girl you can spank (although you will certainly see a trace of this girl in many situations in life).
I’m a woman.
—–
Perhaps, I see the world too broadly. Perhaps, I see too much where there is nothing (yet). But… it’s us, people, who create this world with seemingly small decisions, small things. All together and each separately create this world.
Thank you, NA. I could answer in 3 paragraphs, but I like to flow freely, with my pathos, in which I go from a slap on the ass to the condition of the world, ha ha ha 😊 You gave me a spark.
I am a very greedy person, when it comes to “sparks”. My greed in this area knows no bounds. Prrr, come back. And yet I know one limit – time.
But until I write (I prefer this method) or say (less effective but faster) – it will blow my mind. I remove the ballast. You can throw it in the trash. It’s up to you, what you do with it and what you take from it.
Joa, I love this comment. How you see love and sex is what I hope for if I’m married again someday. Sex is another area that I was robbed and I’ve never experienced it as you describe, it scared me to much to even consider, didn’t understand the concept even, until recently. I had the same reaction to this article and photo, for a long time, wrote some of it on the blog, but your words are much more thorough and your reasons are identical to mine. I understand the usefulness of this article to the role of sex between the narc and the victim, and it, along with other sex articles, the DC series and the book, have been extremely helpful in my personal untangling of things. I agree that there is no shaming a person for a different view, we each have our own and that’s that. Thank you for writing this, and your first comment also.
AV, I didn’t listen to that recording. Most of HG’s works are unavailable to me – due to translations and my lack of knowledge of the English language.
And frankly, I’m not interested in the Narcissist’s view of sex. It is obvious and unacceptable TO ME. It’s just advertising and flypaper.
I was referring to the photo only.
—–
I also hope, that one day you will meet the right man and he will not let you down. You deserve it.
I’ve never been married, although I’ve received three engagement rings, I didn’t care. And… I don’t think I would dare. I don’t believe in the institution of marriage. I’ve always viewed marriage as unnecessary “shackles”.
I only thought about it for a moment, when my mother pestered me with her real attitude: “Get married, and then you’ll get divorced. It’s better to be divorced than unmarried.” Facade of course 🙂 No, I didn’t need this element.
But yes, I deeply believe in love.
Joa,
I said married, for me, because that is my boundary. I don’t try to impose it in anyone else.
I did understand it was much about the photo, more than anything else, I did take it further, I apologize.
I respect your view on this and can relate to the reaction you had.
Thanks for writing back.
Joa,
Your comment, I find, is about something that is complex and has many different aspects to it. The way you have explained your thoughts and emotions about sex is, I can see, deeply personal, impassioned and angry. You disagree with the photo (which I can understand), you disagree with how women are treated in general (which I can understand) and you disagree with what women are prepared to accept, seeing it as a lack of self-respect (which I can understand).
My own thoughts in a nutshell – and it’s really difficult to explain this in words in one brief comment, because I could probably write a book about it – is that I don’t equate sex with love. Not anymore anyway.
Maybe when I was a girl, adolescent, young woman in my 20s and had hopes and fantasies about the perfect lover, I did think sex and love were the same thing. Now, I don’t see it that way. Or, if I think it can be possible, I see it as a rarity.
Sex is an encounter, a relatively short and emotionally charged action that has a beginning and an end and whatever happens in the middle. It is finite and it can be repeated – or not.
You will probably read my comment and think that I am answering in three paragraphs and taking all the heat and emotion out of it. That’s ok. I don’t really need or believe in the spark and the heat and the bodies intertwined and the feeling of being one.
Why do I say this? Admittedly, my experience is fairly limited, but also, I think that having contagion empathy, I don’t really need to experience full-on intimate sex to know how men are likely to behave.
In my experience, men in general – and they can be empathic or narcissists – will not readily show their emotional side and I have found that if I, as a woman, try to get to know a man by talking and discovering more about him, they aren’t interested in this kind of ‘intimacy’. At the same time, I am not interested in jumping into bed and having sex without knowing more about the man I’m having sex with. To me, that is not ‘intimacy’.
I find that, to a man, an opportunity to have sex is a bit like a red rag to a bull – they will rev up their engine when seeing a green light. They are thinking about their own interest. The interest of the woman (assuming this is a heterosexual couple in line with your comment) isn’t as important. It’s the finite action – the beginning, middle and end – that they’re interested in. I think they leave their emotions – to some extent – at the door, because for this finite act, their emotions aren’t really necessary. If it’s a narcissist, the man doesn’t have empathy, so the woman’s interest doesn’t occur to him in a selfless way anyway.
As a woman, a man has never made me want to hand control over to him during sex. I think this is because, from a young age, I have been independent in my thinking and I prefer it that way. I don’t want to depend on a man or anyone. For me to hand over control, even during sex, is not ‘intimate’ or enjoyable. It feels unsafe and to me, it is not ‘love’.
I think that men and women both have a ‘masculine’ and ‘feminine’ side. That doesn’t mean a woman with ‘masculine’ traits isn’t feminine or looks and behaves like a man. It doesn’t mean that a man with ‘feminine’ traits isn’t masculine or looks and behaves like a woman. It is more subtle than that and it is based on emotions, thoughts, empathy, consideration, attitudes, experience, tolerance, restraint in action, lots of things.
In general, I think men have an innate fear of showing any ‘feminine’ traits in any way. It is like a severe blow to their ego for them because they fear being a ‘pansy’ or a ‘pussy’ or ‘weak’. It is like a mortal social threat to who they are as a person. Even women find this kind of man a ‘turn-off’ sexually even though women also say they want love and deep intimacy.
Men act tough to shield their egos. During sex, they need to dominate, they need to show who’s boss, and they can’t allow their ‘manliness’ to be threatened. It has been this way throughout history and it isn’t likely to end any time soon.
The story of Samson and Delilah comes to mind. Samson loved Delilah and she pretended to love him while deceptively using sex to get him to divulge the secret of his strength. He loved her and trusted her enough to tell her what the secret of his strength was. She used sex to deceive him and betrayed him after she found out the secret of his strength was his hair. She then cut his hair and he lost his strength.
I think that men (narcissists or not) have an innate aversion to allowing women close enough to take away their ‘strength’ as they see it.
There are so many aspects to this topic. For instance:
– ubiquitous marketing that uses sex in stylised images like the ones HG uses for his posts;
– films and books like ‘Secretary’ and ’50 Shades of Grey’ that use themes of dominance and submission and give them a ‘happy ending’ (ha!) that makes people believe such ‘stories’ end in ‘true love’;
– women who want to work and have professions alongside men, because either they want to or have to, but are still treated in dominant ways because male egos can’t handle the prospect of equality in that realm;
– gender confusion and questioning;
– so many more.
AV, I didn’t even think you wanted to impose anything on me. Don’t mind me please 🙂
Just, as usual, I selfishly write about myself and release my ballast 🙂
Joa,
No, not selfish, just personal, your perspective. And I clarified. We both allowed each other this freedom because we both have empathy. Same with others on this thread. There does not need to be contention over differing views, when spoken respectfully and clarifications are heard and understood, without deflections, word salad etc. This is growth for me, to know this, thank you for helping me see it!
WS, I don’t equate sex with love.
I believe, that sex is part of love. First I have to be charmed, love, trust, then I can think about having sex with someone.
Of course, I can “have sex” without it – which I did once – but it’s a hopeless option for me, not worth any effort. I wouldn’t even want to lift a finger in that direction 🙂
On the contrary, the older I get, the more I see it this way.
This kind of “sex-sparring” would be an inefficient waste of time for me.
I want to feel close. Not unity, as you write – it would be pointless. Closeness. I feel very independent and “separate” person. There is only one thing in my life, that I value even more than love. This is my personal freedom.
“Spark” was not about love. “Spark” I call inspiration. Sorry for the metaphors, but I’m writing loosely here.
Warmth and bliss – that’s how I feel when I make love. This is one of the basic feelings.
To be honest, as an egoist in life, I don’t really care how a man looks at sex, whether they are interested in the finished action (beginning, middle, end), etc. I don’t care 🙂
If I feel, that it’s you and I feel the desire – there is no exception to this.
Closeness is my only goal. And you will give it to me – because at this moment you are looking through my eyes.
Yes, I know, it’s narcissistic. Yes, I know it’s childish. I’ve written about it here several times.
This is one part of my personality, that I will never remove. That would be my end, and I don’t want to die yet 🙂
I’m only attracted to men, who have a feminine element to them. No, I don’t think men are afraid of showing feminine qualities in a close relationship. Not with me. They can feel safe. And I know it’s important to them.
Even when things are at their worst between us and hate is bubbling from both sides and language is shooting the biggest insults – I have NEVER hit that element. It’s too fragile and precious.
Control – yes – I do it too. Sometimes no control can be the best control.
Female domination – if a man feels safe and secure (thanks to me of course, ha ha ha) – he likes it a lot.
No, I’ve never castrated a man. I know some women do. It’s mean and even more disgusting than this picture.
It always amazes me, how people go crazy over the movies and books you describe. It’s so superficial. They succumb to the wave, they use props, they lose the actual game of dominance – when in fact that game is played on an invisible level. I’ve always felt it. I get a shiver of content just thinking about it…
Thank you WS, what you wrote about yourself and how you see it was very interesting. I will certainly think about it again, somewhere between shopping and walking the dogs 😊 Sorry for replying so brusquely, briefly, and probably with translation errors, but I’m in a hurry.
Joa,
You have replied to AV, but it looks like your reply is meant for me, so I will respond.
In your initial comment at the start of this thread, you said:
“Sex is love, the beauty of intimacy, fusion. It is tenderness, trust, full devotion. For this time, for this moment, I am yours and you are mine, we are the closest we can be…”
In this reply here, you say, “I don’t equate sex with love” and in another comment you say, “sex is only part of love.”
Maybe I’m missing something that you had in mind when you were writing your comments. What I’m understanding though, is that you have said a number of times in different ways that you personally can’t have sex if you don’t feel love.
Personally, I’m having a little difficulty believing that sex with a narcissist in an ongoing relationship would truly provide “the beauty of intimacy, fusion…tenderness, trust, full devotion.”
Maybe that would be the case in the first heady stage of the golden period, but then in the stage of devaluation, sex would not necessarily be like that. Or, there would be respite periods followed by devaluation and the cycle would continue.
Maybe I am reading your comments too literally. Then again, to understand what another truly means, I think it is also valuable to be able to understand what is said literally.
In the relationships I have been in, there was sex without love (love being in the fullest sense of the word) and it was still reasonable or good or even pretty damn hot sex. Yes, it was better during the golden period when there was what felt like love, with the closeness and excitement, etc. I wouldn’t necessarily say that there was “full devotion, tenderness and the closest we could be” but there was more trust at that stage, at least on my part. During those times, the sex was actually better I think, than later on when the relationship had evolved and the devaluation was in place.
If you were able to feel full devotion, tenderness, intimacy and fusion with a narcissist on an ongoing basis in a long relationship, then where is this place where the narcissists are like that? Ha Ha 🙂
Everyone’s beliefs are personal and individual to them when it comes to sex and it’s difficult to generalise. To each their own. As the French say, vive la difference! (long live the difference!) Even though this is meant for the difference between the sexes, my meaning here is that there is a lot of individuality that makes people feel things in different ways.
Joa,
Why did you address me as WS twice? I think you know my name by now. Why reply to my comment while addressing AV instead?
Also, what was the purpose of the thinly veiled insults in your comment? Are you saying that you can write a long, ‘passionate’ and ‘deliberate’ comment, all about yourself, explaining how you’re a woman who is sometimes a mother, or a sister, or a daughter, or a child, or a teacher or a colleague or whatever else…
…while everyone else should just agree with you and be ‘nice’?
Are you saying that you need to feel love and full devotion, with tenderness and fusion, while you don’t give a shit what the man who you’re having sex with is feeling, because in that moment he will look into your eyes and it will be all about you?
Is it okay for you or your daughter to grow claws and be proud of having them, but when someone tells you their opinions that may be different from yours, you feel free to contradict, dismiss and insult?
I’m not really feeling the love from you Joey.
My issue is what Sound of Freedom represents. The fact sex trafficking is a 150 billion dollar industry up 5000% because of social media. I have no idea how such a reprehensible crime can exist today with out wealth and abilities in crime enforcement and technology. The whole BDSM groups are consensual. In fact it’s said the M has the real control. My issue is the idea of adult men controlling the innocent those who have no control. Gods children are not for sale.
WN, all replies that started “AV” are directed at AV.
Sorry, I mistook your nick and wrote WS – this is due to the lack of knowledge of English. I read the translated text, in my language you read: “MądrzejszyTeraz”. I do not turn off the translator, I typed WS in a hurry, remembering that in English you are “Wisser”. In my native language, such abbreviations are also not created, I learned it here and assimilated it. I’m sorry for my mistake. I probably make many more mistakes of this kind here – shortening your nicknames from memory from a bunch of words that are foreign to me.
Yes, love and sex are inextricably linked – to me – but I don’t think they’re the same thing. Love is a much broader concept, encompasses many people and has many faces. I need to feel love for someone in order to be able to open up enough to reveal myself (deep level) and my body to them.
Sex in the devaluation phase? Not in my case. Sex is a derivative of what happens between us. During the period of permanent devaluation, sex for N1 and N2 was unavailable. As long as I love… Only as long as I love. And as long as you’re good to me. When I want it.
Yes, I felt intimacy, security and trust in sex with N1 and N2. Perhaps it was just a one-sided feeling.
With N1 it was great for 7 years – wonderful relationship and wonderful sex.
With N2 a little shorter – I got pregnant and our relationship changed. There was also a wave of love and hate, where the sex is also great. Later, that too died in me.
I don’t notice the insults in my comment. There is one epithet. If you see them – maybe I’m writing too harshly, sorry.
Yes, in the first place, for me what counts is me and my feelings. I can not help it. That’s how I am. I didn’t notice any male dissatisfaction, quite the opposite. If in sex you do what gives you damn pleasure, and at this level of intimacy, you can’t fake it, the man is smitten with the result.
I’m not in anyone else’s head, but in mine. We can communicate with gestures, words, looks – also lead me in the direction you want. If it suits me, I’ll go.
I don’t understand why you’re bringing my daughter into my views on sex. I described our way of communication for a different purpose.
WN, we don’t know each other, why would you feel my love?
Hmm, WN, you got my mind wandering around one topic. Sex in devaluation.
Why should I come closer a man, give myself and my body to him, submit to him, make love to him, if he is mean to me and if I sense that he directs negative emotions towards me?
Only at the stage of minor resentments and at the stage of love-hate it is still possible and makes sense – restoring order, remind about each other.
To give myself to someone, whom I have stopped loving, respecting, and maybe even liking, is like giving myself to a stranger…
I can’t.
Thank you for your replies, Joa.
It sounds like words and phrases are lost in translation on both sides of our conversation.
“WN, we don’t know each other, why would you feel my love?”
The phrase ‘feel the love’ is often used in English in situations where the ‘love’ is not meant as the kind of love between people who know each other well.
For example, consider the song by Elton John from the film ‘The Lion King’ called ‘Can You Feel the Love Tonight?’. The meaning of ‘can you feel the love?’ in the song is closer to ‘can you feel the good will?’ or ‘can you feel the empathy?’.
Another example using a different word: Consider the standard letter that starts with ‘dear’, as in ‘Dear Mrs Smith’. The letter could be sent by a long-standing friend of Mrs Smith, or it could be sent by Mrs Smith’s electricity company which is sending a generic letter to all its customers with overdue accounts in order to inform them that their electricity will be switched off. It’s a customary way of using particular words. This customary way of using words is not literal.
The Polish language, as all other languages I’m sure, has the same sort of phrases and customary use of words.
In my example, I ended my comment with the line “I’m not really feeling the love from you, Joey” because sincerely, your reply to me was contradictory and did not seem very respectful, friendly or empathic and yet in your earlier comments you claimed to know all about what ‘love’ is supposed to be. The way I said it was sarcastic, I admit, however, it was because of the mixed messaging I read in your comments.
Yes, we are strangers on a blog. I do not expect ‘love’ from you. That would be ridiculous. I would like to think though, that anyone who knows so much about how ‘love’ is supposed to feel would at least have an open mind and good will even with a stranger.
“Sex in the devaluation phase?”
Yes, of course, sex in the devaluation phase. This blog is all about narcissists. HG’s books, posts, videos and comments are all about the narcissistic dynamic, which he writes about extensively in relation to romantic relationships that involve sex. He actually states explicitly that sex is a powerful ‘tool’ the narcissist uses to ensnare a victim and keep the victim ensnared.
HG also says explicitly that a relationship with a narcissist will *always* involve devaluation – as sure as night follows day.
Devaluation can be many things. It doesn’t have to be a smack in the face or an outright verbal insult. It can be emotional abuse, psychological abuse, financial abuse, cheating, disrespect, silent treatments, triangulation, ignoring someone, excluding someone, or mocking someone. It can be very subtle things like keeping secrets, provocation, always walking in front, always taking the most or the best (food, position, time, space, etc).
Joa,
One thing I have discovered about myself in the course of being on this blog is that I value honesty in myself. If that comes across as meanness or rudeness or ‘challenge’, then, unfortunately, that is something I will also have to accept and process.
I can see that you are also being honest and direct and I respect that. I do not see the long-term point in being ‘nice’ and ‘kind’ simply so that the next time we comment with each other we can be ‘nice’ and ‘kind’ again. I would rather face the truth in a forum where it is possible and reach a deeper level of understanding, both of myself and others.
When you say, “With N1 it was great for 7 years – wonderful relationship and wonderful sex”, I question whether N1 was really a narcissist. I say this because a relationship with a narcissist for seven years does not sound to me like a “wonderful” relationship. Maybe for you it did feel like that, however, in my experience in relationships with narcissists it did not.
Also, when you say that your relationship with N2 changed after you became pregnant, when reading that, it raised a red flag for me.
If you were able to feel ‘love’ in terms of full devotion, tenderness and fusion, etc with a man while having sex, wouldn’t it make sense that making a baby together would make that love even stronger? Where did the love go if things changed after you became pregnant?
If your pregnancy and having a child together was the factor that ‘changed’ this fully devoted love and tenderness, then, I’m sorry, but that doesn’t sound like true love to me. It sounds more like the pregnancy got in the way of lust and opportunity. For you? For him? Maybe for both of you?
In relation to your point:
“To give myself to someone, whom I have stopped loving, respecting, and maybe even liking, is like giving myself to a stranger…”
To me, you have described what happens to an empathic person when they learn they are involved with a narcissist who manipulated him or her into a relationship. Once the empathic person sees who the narcissist really is, his or her eyes are open and the empath’s feelings change. The whole point of a narcissist’s golden period is to ensnare a victim into “loving, respecting, and liking” the narcissist.
@Joa,
You said exactly what I’ve been feeling towards MLSOMATIC, my husband, and you made me realize it’s why I haven’t been intimate with him in a while….you put to words, what I’ve been feeling and couldn’t put it to words. Thank you! Xx
MLSOMATIC has been acting very nice to me, being very helpful at times, but he’s trying to manipulate me, HG even confirms it. He’s also rude at times and likes to use name calling and is very critical in projects I do, how I drive, you name it….he devalues me at times, when he doesn’t get what he wants, sex. His treatment of me makes me not want to be close to him emotionally or physically. He doesn’t even realize it’s his own devaluing that leads me not to give him what he wants….so in a way, he’s creating his own problems through his narcissism and I’m reacting to his abuse of me. …I was starting to feel like an asshole for not giving in, but like you, I can’t give of myself to someone who is being abusive to me. I just can’t bring out that trust and to lay myself bare to the risk of more abuse. I see that, I’m not being an asshole and I shouldn’t feel guilt for protecting myself from harm. Thanks Joa, for that realization about myself. It clicks. I’m not an asshole after all. Xx
Joa
To clarify:
“In the end despite your beliefs” is in reference to you having arrived here after your entanglement with a narc to gain understanding of what was actually happening. You must have had questions or needed understanding to search it out. No blame. Part of the learning here is that although YOU may have viewed your interaction with the narc as being love, fusion, or devotion, there was none of that on the narcs side. It was purely theatre on his part and you played a substantial role. One that you may not have auditioned for, but one that could be considered a theatrical performance nonetheless. In my view, you did not consent, but were taken advantage of where others are aware there is an element of “theatre” at the outset.
My point was, in that way, so too could your involvement be viewed as disgusting and a pointless waste of time, but I would still not label you an idiot.
I am not personally angered by your view. It’s yours and you have every right to express it. I was just struck by what I viewed to be the irony in it and expressed that.
NA, I understand.
Though I don’t see it as taking advantage of me. Perhaps my pride or a large element of CoD does not allow me.
I had beautiful moments with both N1 and N2. I absolutely do not regret them. I’ve never regretted it. I smile when I think about them. These are precious memories for me.
What came after was not pleasant, of course, but also during this period the sensations were so unusual, that they gave me a kind of twisted pleasure.
It may be hard to understand, but I also love sadness, longing, pain, loneliness. Sadness is nostalgic, moody. Longing rips the heart out of the chest. The pain is deep and pierces and sometimes huddle the body. Solitude is wise and calm as the smooth sea.
I love all emotions, those considered “good” and those considered “bad” (e.g. hate – a raging storm that quickly subsides and turns into silence). Recently I wrote on YT, that the only emotion I don’t like is despair – inevitably associated with real or emotional death.
I am killed by emptiness, nothingness, indifference, apathy. I will accept any emotion so as not to feel… NOTHING.
I wanted to live a life, where I felt every emotion as deeply as possible. And I succeeded. It gave me a sense of life fulfillment and that I “had” everything.
—–
The only thing I regret is that my daughter is growing up without a father as a result of this relationship in which I was very active. Of course, it’s better for her that he’s away. Yes, I feel guilty about it. It was supposed to be about me only. Unfortunately, she also suffers the consequences and will bear them all her life… like me. This shouldn’t have happened.
Or maybe it was supposed to… maybe she was supposed to be.
It makes no sense to think in this direction. I’m glad she is – although she has a slightly more difficult path of self-development ahead of her.
Hi Joa,
I think you raise some interesting points, which translate to questions for me.
Do you think that for you, it is more important for you to be in love with an intimate partner, than for the intimate partner to be ‘in love’ with you?
From my interpretation of what you have written it sounds like this is the case.
If so, do you think that it is enough for you to FEEL loved when it might not be the case that you ARE loved? (At least not in the way that empathic people love.)
It makes me think about the concept of cognitive versus emotional empathy. I’ve been considering for a while that emotional empathy is not quite all it’s cracked up to be.
Your narcs are without emotional empathy. You don’t regret the relationships, you don’t feel used or exploited by the narc. I believe you. So is it possible then that intentional love or, the cognitive expression of love, was enough to make you FEEL loved? If this is the case, and feeling loved is what is important, lack of emotional empathy in a partner becomes less relevant, hence perhaps why you don’t regret or feel cheated by your ensnarements.
Xx
TS, that’s exactly right. If I had to choose between loving someone or being loved, I would choose the former. I want to love, I want to feel (that’s selfish, isn’t it?).
It is enough for the other side to give me a good illusion, a good appearances. “Damn, can you lie better, Dear?!” 🙂
And when a lie becomes too weak and visible, I switch to control mode, to control him and get him back on track.
Sometimes I think, I love the idea of loving 🙂
“Are you in this relationship? Ok, I will accept you as you are and I will love you. And I will be faithful to you and I will not leave you – until you start breaking the rules drastically.”
This should be my “marriage” vow, ha ha ha 🙂
Everything looks like a normal, successful, very happy relationship and basically it is, and that’s how I feel – I write about what happens at the very bottom.
—–
My mother behaves the same way. She knows she’s not loved. It is irrelevant. It’s reciprocal slavery and reciprocal control, putting him back in its place. And yet… they experience many beautiful moments, among the swamp.
—–
“Only the good things in life are important. I remember the bad ones, but they seem to fade, they become only the background” – I told N2.
“And I the other way around. I only remember the bad” – he replied.
I’m a master of “forgetting” what’s wrong… Especially, if it gets in the way of my goal.
(I can pull that out later, for example in 20 years, when we are already at a different stage).
TS, one more thing. Your question detailed what I’ve known for a long time. Thank you very much for that.
Yes, cognitive empathy from my partner is enough for me (the greater, the better). Not only that, only this kind of empathy directed towards me seems safe to me. Only this kind of empathy “doesn’t suffocate, doesn’t absorb, doesn’t dominate me.”
And by the way, you enlightened me about my daughter’s need for independence as a newborn and throughout her childhood. She repulsed me as much as I repulsed my mother, and my mother repulsed her mother… Yes, my daughter is identical. I hug her in a special way and on special terms. Sometimes she won’t let me get close – especially when my love for her is the greatest and when I want to show it. Shes answer is quite aggressive. I need to get colder, even rougher, then we can talk.
When she explodes with emotions for me – I take it with the greatest joy – because she can’t dominate me. Only when she takes this first step, she is able to accept my emotions (but without exaggeration).
Cold love. Yes. We just want cold love from person, who could dominate us.
Hi Joa,
Thank you for your answer and for explaining further. I think I feel where you are now. 🙂
No. It isn’t selfish. Wanting to feel, needing to feel is very consistent with conversations you and I have had before so it makes sense for this to be carried through in your approach to relationships.
I can meet you in your thinking half way. I agree that the depth of emotion the narc brings out in us is beyond what we experience with normals or narcissistic people. It’s that depth that we crave I think. For me, some, not all, empaths can bring out a real depth of understanding, a real connection, but there’s no spark for me. I get the connection and understanding on the one hand but lose the spark and attraction on the other. I accept this is the addiction in play, but that addiction is in fact part of who I am, like it or lump it.
Where I differ is that whilst I might accept a relationship where my partner has only cognitive empathy for me, his behaviours being intentional, a choice, a daily note to self to fulfil my needs as well as his own, I’ll never accept devaluation. Once I spot it, I’d always react the same way; quiet defiance, then departure.
I can understand that the negative emotion you experience at this point, you view as preferable to not feeling, or, not feeling as acutely, I see what you mean there, there’s an acceptance about it, almost a view that says, “this life is just experiences, emotions, memories, and in the end it is better to have experienced all than to have experienced just a portion.” In many ways, I can’t disagree with that statement, in theory, but the reality of it is not something I’m personally prepared to follow through with.
I think we are designed to remember the good and fade out the bad. Mother Nature is to blame there. If we remembered the pain of childbirth we would never choose to have a second baby. Ask me about childbirth and I would say those two nights were the most magical of my life, I’d re-live them both again in a heartbeat. Mother Nature is cunning but she fails women miserably on the vast majority of everything else!
Thank you for sharing your thoughts Joa.
Xx
Hi Joa,
Your second comment was posted after I wrote my response above and it has prompted me with regards to my own daughter, thank you too!
My daughter is similar, she is affectionate, particularly with me, very warm hearted and sees straight to the core of people. Similar to your daughter, fiercely independent, her affection, her real warmth is instigated by her. It won’t come just because I’m being loving towards her, she has to feel and instigate it herself. I too am very mindful of her personal space. She doesn’t like to be surprised by my overflowing affection towards her; she likes advance warning ‘ affection incoming’ haha! She is also extremely selective in terms of who gets to see her emotional side.
I know what you mean by not wanting to feel smothered by a partner’s love. I’m very similar. I tend to describe it as not being romantic but really I think it’s more the case that I am loving, I can be extremely affectionate: just on my terms!
Xx
Hi TS & Joa,
I love reading your conversations. I hope that’s not too creepy, lol! Your exchanges are often beautiful and filled with empathy. Thank you.
Hi Leigh,
That’s a lovely thing to say and very much appreciated, thank you!
Xx
@Joa
Maybe for you every time you have sex with a non-narc it feels like 2 souls intertwining and becoming one or whatever
But I’m sure it doesn’t feel that way for most couples who have been having sex with the same person for 10 plus years….
For me, what you said sounds nice on paper but it isn’t realistic. And I’m also a woman.
Witch, no, bodies intertwine – that’s what I meant.
Soul – it’s too religious for me.
Okay. I wrote how I feel close.
I think, I have not been understood correctly.
So I’ll write like this, I’m not interested in “unity”, “soul mates” and other such fairy tales.
The necessary condition for me is love, so that sex takes on the dimension I want.
Sex is not only about the body. Sex especially happens in the brain. If any of you have ever made love to your partner on the phone (only by listening to his voice) or with on electronic word – you will know well, that this is also how desire and excitement can reach the zenith and you can also climax in this way. Just like in a dream – if you’ve ever had an orgasm while sleeping, you know it’s wonderful and you’re running on endorphins for at least 2 days 🙂
So, it’s only when I love someone, trust them, want them, that the moment we’re close, there are chemicals released in my brain, hormones, I don’t know what this cosmic explosive mixture is – that I almost move to another dimension.
And that kind of sex interests me. And after such sex, I can lie happy and cuddled and enjoy this moment.
“Nothing opens a woman up like sex” – N2 once told me. Indeed – when it is this kind of sex.
In fact, the effects of sex on the brain can be compared to the effects of alcohol, which may be why so many people in the world abuse alcohol. Only alcohol is much weaker, more harmful and ultimately – it stupefies a person. The more you drink, the bigger the zombies.
Back to sex. I don’t need foreplay – physical – which so many women require. I don’t need props either. At all. We can go straight to the specifics, omitting this rather boring element. But – you must approach me in the way I require: close-up, escape, pursuit to stir my desire and my imagination. The greatest foreplay is invisible, yet powerful like no other. It basically lasts all the time you are in a steady relationship.
And when the game ends… it’s over for me. At the end of my 11-year relationship with N1, he was still close to me, I still loved him… as a friend, as a brother. But I didn’t see any point in continuing this relationship on the current terms. It burned out. In love, all or nothing.
I still have contact with him – I am there when he needs me. He was very close to me. It was a beautiful relationship. I am grateful to him for everything we’ve been through together.
Joa,
I (think) I understood you. Our mind is one of our most important sex “organs”, if it’s not happening there, is not happening, for me anyway.
For me, pain is not, in my mind, part of the sex “act”, it would make me run.
I want a sexual experience, at least some of the time, in which my mind is melded with with him, his mind and our bodies follow suit. Not necessarily every time, there are those moments when one or the other is just horny, but in a relationship where that mind melding happens even semi often, it makes all the other meetings of the bodies more fun too, at least in my thought process this seems how it would be.
I am still waiting for the semi frequent mind meld to know for sure. In the meantime those sleep O’s will suffice.
Heh, I’d like to say:
Stimulate my brain Dear, and my body will give in to you 🙂
And… in fact, isn’t that what HG phenomenon is all about? 🙂
@joa
For me love and sexual desire is not the same thing although you can have both.
I understand what you’re saying about narcs making sex uncomfortable and pushing boundaries you don’t want to be pushed. Most of them are rapists because they don’t like hearing “no” after all
Joa, reading your comment was a bit like climbing a mountain … it’s exhilarating when you get to the top. The effort was worth it 🙂
It’s a miracle, that I manage to somehow complete my thoughts, when there are 100 of them per minute and analyze several threads at a time, closing one and developing and weaving the next 🙂
The human thought process is a beautiful thing.
@Joa
In the context of narcissism any kind of sex with a narc is a risk. So let’s put that to one side.
In the context of a healthy relationship, sex tends to decline in long term relationships as the honeymoon phase ends and life stresses get in the way of prioritising sex.
Sometimes a bit of theatre can help to revitalise a couples sex life because “love” isn’t always enough. I would probably even suggest that it’s rarely enough in the long term when it comes to sex.
I recently finished watching “how to build a sex room” on Netflix for a bit of light cheesy reality TV and it explored how fantasy/theatre helps to maintain sexual connection between couples in the long term. There were couples on there who were married with kids and the mundane everyday things impaired their sex life. They wanted a sex room in their house that didn’t have any lego pieces and barbie heads laying around to kill the mood.
Now I want one
I want it to look like the kind of room that a high class French hooker from the 1920’s would have if she were rich 😆
Witch, I understand that perfectly. It may not be a long-term relationship and it was childless, but the longest I’ve been in – it lasted 11 years.
Sex was great for 7 years. Wonderful. We had sex at least a few times a week, sometimes several times a day – although I don’t like prolonged marathons, that last many hours (at some point I get bored). There were many different “variations on a theme” (scenes – a wide field for imagination). I loved in this relationship and felt loved (although it was a perfect hoax).
It was a bit worse after 7-8 years, when I started to pull away. He was a lot of pressure to have sex, the farther I went. I informed him, that such behavior would make me disgusted with him. He didn’t listen. After all, I didn’t want to intertwine with his body anymore. I left him several times. I came back with the NO SEX condition. I didn’t want him touching me even with a hand. I finally left him.
Sex is possible only when I love.
Joa
Words of wisdom indeed. Good for you! Self respect is very important. Sex should be about love.
@Anna
So if I want to have sex with someone and they want to have sex with me for pleasure- I can’t see myself in an actual relationship with them but we may have sexual chemistry. it isn’t really about love but there is still mutual respect there (so I suppose there may be inherent love that goes hand in hand with having empathy but the sex act itself is not about love and commitment.
Why does that mean we lack self respect?
@Witch
Pardon the misunderstanding.
What I mean is this
It is important to have self respect and love. To be able to set boundaries, so you can say no to possible sex acts which you may not enjoy, that may cause you pain. That you have the strength and courage to say no to it. I am talking about BDSM here and not casual hook ups. With BDSM sometimes there is a “safe” word. When you are with a narcissist or psychopath they will ignore this and continue. They will revel in your pain with their twisted sadistic lust. You may even be gagged and unable to say this word. Worst is if it is with someone you have been with for many years, and they break your trust.
Nothing wrong with sex for pleasure, as long as it is between two consenting adults who respect each others boundaries.
@Anna
Okay I think I understand more now.
Everyone is throwing me off with the term “love” and talking about how sex SHOULD be about love. When it can just be about getting your rocks off with someone you’re attracted to and there isn’t anything wrong with that in my opinion
If we were to replace “love” and “self respect” with assertiveness and empathy then I would understand it more but I don’t want to put words in people mouths.
@ Witch
“If we were to replace “love” and “self respect” with assertiveness and empathy then I would understand it more but I don’t want to put words in people mouths.”
Love is not assertiveness
Self respect is not empathy.
Someone who abuses you does not love you. They can say I love you whilst whipping your back until you bleed with a cat o nine tails. This is not love.
Loving yourself and being able to be assertive without being agressive, being able to set boundaries. Self respect so you can say no.
Empathy is something very very different and not all have it. Some lack cognitive empathy also.
HG’s work has discussed how the narcissist breaks down the self respect and assertiveness of the victim under the guise of love in order for them to gain fuel. To abuse. So the person is an empty husk, a marionette, a play thing for the narcissist.
I myself had plenty of one night stands and casual hook ups for pleasure when I was younger.
I learned this
Quality is better than quantity
Sex is not love
Someone who abuses or hurts you does not love you
Sometimes I wonder if love even exists at all to be honest.
Love and respect yourself, set boundaries.
Anna,
Regarding your July 12, 17:30 comment:
“HG’s work has discussed how the narcissist breaks down the self respect and assertiveness of the victim under the guise of love in order for them to gain fuel. To abuse. So the person is an empty husk, a marionette, a play thing for the narcissist.” -Yes, and this can be from a parent to a child also.
Love does exist, it is not possible in a relationship with a narcissist, but I know it exists because I love my children and grandchildren. And it is as HG describes it minus the romantic aspect. I did not know it existed even for some time after my first two were born. Finally on the third I started to understand that what I did for them every day was done out of love. After my ex left the love in our home flourished. I hope you get to experience it at some point, it is the best thing when it is real.
A Victor, Thanks for the response. Yes I too felt the most pure love after I had my children. Something I had never experienced before. I would die for them. Unconditional love. A rare but beautiful thing. I have never experienced it with a partner though. I find men to be incredibly cruel. I am pansexual and have been with a woman. The love was much deeper. Maybe one day I will be able to have love, but maybe not. Only time will tell.
I love a good spanking. I am a very bad girl after all. 😉
As we well know.
🤭
HG (1) do you ever take on a submissive position ((2) asserting control via agreement/ submission is a thing, yes?) to assert control, say an IPPS / IPSS wants to be dominant, or is that a no-go? (3) Are you always the one doling out discipline? (4) Have you been a sugar daddy? (5) Have you been a feeder?
1. No.
2. Yes, mentioned previously.
3. Yes.
4. No.
5. No.
I had to Google ‘feeder’. Haha! Say what?
So as with Depeche Mode, your position on submissive role-play is one aspect that remains a constant across personas?