Poll : Which Of These Manipulations Did You Experience The Most?
You will have experienced many different types of manipulation having been ensnared by a narcissist or more than one. You may not have realised what the manipulation was at the time and only worked it out after the event.
Was there a particular manipulation that was used against you more than the others? Perhaps one narcissist used it a lot or it has become a common theme used by the various narcissists you have entangled with? Did the narcissist use sex to manipulate you, through withdrawing it or making you do sexual acts you were not comfortable with or maybe sex was given as a reward if you were compliant? Were you the recipient of lots of Present Silent Treatments through sulking and cold shoulders? Maybe you found that the narcissist used contradiction a lot through saying one thing and doing another? It might have been that you were subjected to word salads as you fought to understand what on earth was going on.
Whichever was the manipulation that was used the most against you, choose one from the list and do please expand on how this affected you and why you think this one was used against you more than others.
Thank you for participating.
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To Rebecca, thank you. For writing about your “resentment” about your mother. I understood clearly what you meant and your words really explained it very well. I was made to feel / think that I was not allowed to share how I felt about the maternal parent because of her narcissism’s control over her so she projected that onto me. According to some of society’s “sheep-herding mentality”, it is not ok to feel “resentment” towards abusers (especially the parental type when we were children and too young to comprehend or recognise the existence of narcissism as it is, despite maybe having the instinctual, yet, unexplainable survival responses as children). I totally agree with you, HG’s work has helped tremendously, enabling us, empowering us, with the knowledge that we needed as children. Than you, once again, for ‘voicing’ your words, they were important to me. xx
Hi Asp Emp,
It’s nice to see you again here. Xx
I’m glad you got a positive feeling from my comment. It’s nice to be so understood here, it’s why the blog means so much to me. I appreciate that my comment means so much to you. Xx
Our childhoods can’t fully be understood, except by others who have lived it too. I’m grateful to be here and have supportive people here, that means a lot to me. Xx
Hi Rebecca, thank you for your reply. I was given the strong impression that I am the ‘black sheep’ for even daring to ‘dishonour’ thy mother (having ‘shocked’ people over the years for speaking up against her abuse) – well, it was my experience and not theirs for them to dismiss my feelings / thoughts. Your earlier comment basically ‘justified’ my own childhood-teenage-adult perceptions of “thy mother”. I no longer have any real emotion over “thy mother” as I believe I have done all the ‘purging’ of my past where she is concerned. So, the thanks to you was for giving me the ‘nudge’ to reaffirm that I not wrong to voice as such, back then (years ago) and now. Sometimes it is possible for us to ‘remove’ the LOCEs by asserting our own boundaries. Not always possible, yet, it depends on how we react by managing ourselves within the environment around us. It feels good to be listened to. Thank you xx
I don’t know what I would have answered when I was still in it. Shelving is not on the list, but that was a biggie. It’s been 8+ since I’ve had contact, and don’t have anyone in my present day who does that, and what a toll living like that took on me. I’m still reeling from it a little bit and can’t believe how long I let myself live like that.
Triangulation was up there too. With other people for sure, and also with other things, like his job (because he became so busy and important). Triangulation was as natural to him breathing.
A few of the other ones on that list as well..
Too hard to pick just one. I picked the one I contend with most currently. When I have to have contact.
Talked about behind my back while in your face being “nice”.
Not allowed to think.
Not allowed to feel: leave that to a horse . Has a bigger head and more time.
“ You don’t have to listen to her because she is crazy “.
Silent treatment. Not being listened to.
Dear Mr Tudor,
Happy New Year! I hope 2025 is a great year for you. Thank you so much for all you do, it is very much appreciated.
I voted ‘made to feel guilty’, as it’s happening as we speak.
Our family has just been bestowed with tirade of FB updates, (after a hiatus for most of last year), 2 mins before midnight NYE with pics of our son’s wedding photos, a ‘new surname’ and a deep love for his NEW family along with underlying sarcastic comments directed at us, which they know will hurt, along with twisting the knife by guilt shaming us.
They have basically shown to all and sundry that they have won thru adversity and come out on top, regardless. Of course, they chose a special occasion, typical!
Mr Bubbles is shocked to the core, hurt and speechless, (to change the family name….😱) and I’m absolutely ‘cut to the quick’.
Our beautiful family loving, caring son we once knew, has turned on all of us, big time !
🥹
Hello Bubbles x
I’m sorry that your son is so far under the control of the narcissist that he seems unrecognisable to you. He is still in there Bubbles, but sadly he is gone for now.
At some point in the future I hope your son will return as the person you know him to be. He needs to wake up by himself though, nothing you do or say now will hasten that process. You can only wait and be ready to forgive him when hopefully that future day arrives.
In the meantime though, reading the Facebook posts or putting feelers out to find out how he is doing can only cause you pain. Please try to not to hurt yourself in this way. I do understand why you do it, truly I do, but what you see on Facebook will only hurt you more. Try to stay away, concentrate on keeping you and Mr Bubbles well for the day when your son does wake up to himself. This is when your love and forgiveness will be needed most, so keep strong for the fight you can win.
Happy New Year Bubbles.
Xx
Dearest Truth,
You’re so sweet to help me heal lovely one. This is another ‘game play’ by our narc n son, which we certainly weren’t expecting.
All our children are our friends on FB. (I literally have no friends haha). His narc deliberately blocked me awhile back, then our son added me again. FB doesn’t show everything as you know. However, these posts were there to intimidate and get a reaction out of us. I certainly don’t go looking or seek and ye shall find.
Thank you so much for caring Truth, it means the world to me. I’ve actually gone into ‘numb mode’ with everything that’s happened recently. My priority is Mr Bubbles atm. I still visit my mum regularly, do her laundry and make sure she is totally cared for.
We stand by our principals and will not tolerate this narc trespassing on our boundaries…..and yes, it has been extremely painful.
We expect the narc’s health will take its toll and sadly our son’s mental capacity will not cope. Unfortunately, in this scenario, no one will win!
Thank you dear Truth, I love that you care . 😌
Dear Bubbles,
I’m sorry you and your husband are going through such betrayal from your son and new partner. Xx
His betrayal reminds me of Harry’s behaviors towards his family and if you watch the TOW’s videos, you know how Harry is being manipulated by his wife. Please try to keep that in mind, that your son’s thoughts aren’t his own, he’s being brainwashed against you and your husband. He’s not thinking clearly and not himself, he’s not the son you raised. Xx
Please try to think of it that way, that his mind is not his own right now and I hope he wakes up to the manipulations of his partner. I hope that knowledge lessens the sting of hurt for you. I hope he wakes up soon. Xx
Dearest Rebecca and Contagious,
My sincerest apologies, I just found your comments, thank you both for your wonderful help, advice and caring!
Please know I don’t deliberately ignore comments. I try to respond to as many as I can see or find hehe
No doubt I have replied to other comments you made since. It’s just taken me a bit to catch up. Again, my heartfelt apologies.
As always ☺️
Ps I can’t block him, it’s just not me, he’s my son ! ☺️
He’s blocked me, so it’s on his conscience, not mine !
Dear Bubbles,
No worries, I know the comments are hard to catch up on. I miss comments often and feel the sane guilt you do. I understand you’re not ignoring us. Xx
I’m sorry the situation with your son hasn’t changed. I hope your relationship heals soon. I’m sorry you’re going through the pain of lost with your son and mother. Xx
I hope you reach for things that make you happy during this time. Do things that give you relief from the hurt….paint, go for a walk, take that hoilday…whatever helps you take care of you and your husband. Take care of your heart and your mind. Xx
Dearest Rebecca,
Many thanks for your kind words lovely one.
I don’t think we will be seeing our son anytime soon, the narc has him well n truly in his clutches, same as TOW with Harry, unfortunately.
You are so right, the mind and heart are the two most precious care areas. Protect them at all costs! I try Rebecca, I’ve made it this far All my doctors hate me cos I don’t take their poisonous crap haha
I feel your pain also (I too, was brought up with silent treatments and any sex was considered taboo). Mum also made big dramas about giving birth. Understanding narcissism here, has made me realise this is what they do about everything they do in their lives ……dramatise !
I hope you are taking care of yourself as well ? Glad to hear your work environment has changed for the better. Most bosses I’ve ever worked for were all narcs, some worse than others. Little steps make big changes! Good for you, you have my best wishes !
Thank you again Rebecca 💕
Hello Bubbles,
I am, similarly, catching up on comments.
I am sorry to hear of your mother’s passing.
I am also sad to hear of your son’s continued ensnarement. It must be very hard to watch – especially since you are an educated and weaponized empath yourself and fully understand the nature of his relationship.
If my son were similarly entangled, I would find it difficult to not intervene…although, we know from HG that there is a wrong and a right time to involve oneself. Here’s hoping that the relationship runs its course sooner rather than later!
Take care. ♥️
Dear Bubbles:
Great attitude and you don’t even need to respond but if you do, always a pleasure! Xxx
Dear Rebecca and Contagious,
I love Mr Tudor’s videos and yes, I see the TOW n Harry similarities with our son’s situation, sadly. We’ve since been informed he’s changed where he lives on FB and his career. Nothing surprises us anymore with him.
Always expect the expected when dealing with narcs. We haven’t seen him in over a year, however, he did send me a “Happy Mother’s Day” only text msg, he didn’t respond to my reply.
I MAY get a “Happy Birthday” only text, however, I’m not holding my breath haha
I find it interesting because our son’s narc knows what I went thru with my mum and he’s role playing or duplicating in similar ways by using our son to do the same. How utterly mean and vindictive! The narc knows no bounds !
Happy New Year Bubbles:
I know he is your son but block him! He will wake up one day and see what we see, the kind, loving, giving sweet Bubbles. He is seeking attention. Ignore him. Make him earn your love! My two cents!
Triangulations.
Always a 3rd person being brought into what I call “The devils triangle”
With my partner, they always bring up another woman. Luckily I now see it for what it is thanks to the work of HG.
I feel no jealousy or resentment towards the 3rd person. Rather I feel utter disgust that my partner is trying to do this. It is easy to say “Don’t rise to the bait” Harder to do sadly.
But he made me feel so unloved, so terrible, so bad. This feeling now disgusts me. That is not love.
Through therapy I have my self confidence back.
Through HG’s work I can learn and see why this is happening.
Hopefully, one day I will find the strength to leave and finally go “no contact”
Anna,
Be a shame if his knee went out or somethin’. I might know a guy who knows a guy who might know a guy. “Allegedly.” Ay, things happen. But, I dunno, y’know? I was never here.
I need that guy too, Allison! I’m kidding. But not really. Lol!
Hi, Leigh–
The fruitcake is in the mail.
Lol!
I do know how. True. But don’t go there.
Fugeddaboutit.
The notable narcissists in my life were all Midrange but each a different sub school. Various manipulations were used in line with their sub schools but the common theme was triangulation.
My mum (LMR) and online narc (MMRB) both triangulated me with my own success/ achievement.
Examples:
Mum after getting a new car. “Yes, we’re happy with it. It’ll do. It isn’t anything like your car of course.”
Online narc after having seen me park up at the hotel and directly after a months long absent silent treatment. “ The weekend was like a fairytale, but afterwards I realised I could never be what you hoped I was. My salary doesn’t buy (enter brand of car here.)”
Both often linked triangulation to pity plays.
Love of My Life Guy, (UMR) I was a student and he was 13 yrs older with his own business. He triangulated me with things I did not have rather than with what I did have.
Examples:
He would inform me we were going to a black tie dinner or a charity ball. I was required to dress expensively. I was never in debt as a student but neither could I afford a wardrobe full of cocktail dresses, so he would take me to get “something nice for you to wear.” I would try on, he would choose and pay. Sounds nice but looking at it now, it was all about control and elevating himself. (I never wore the same dress twice.)
He triangulated me also with his house in the Lake District that we went to each New Year. Each year as we left I would fix the house in my memory because I always thought that was the last time I would see it. He would talk about guests he intended to invite during the course of the year but only ever invited me to go with him at Christmas, so I was never sure until the week prior to us going.
His triangulation was often linked to threatened loss.
He also triangulated me with his ex. She ran her own business too. I’d find a photo of her in a bedside table drawer, a Christmas card in the decoration box. Subtle, but definitely triangulation with person.
I found out years later, that I irritated her immensely. In her eyes he had replaced her with a girl 13 years younger. She called me ‘The Satchel’ apparently. In fairness that’s quite witty! I might have quite liked her!
Truth seeker:
I was obviously triangulated with my ex ‘s mother. He would say after I cooked a meal or ordered food in how his mother made wonderful x, y and z. I doubt she even made sushi lol. She lives in England and is 76.
He also triangulated me with his dog and his mum with his dog. He would go on and on and on about the dog. How much he missed her. When she died of old age he wrote DOZENS of songs, poems, a short story, created numerous blogs about her etc…We all love our pets but he left her here for me to care for and came up with a million excuses why he couldn’t take her. Some valid as she was too old to fly or he didn’t have a job. Others not valid. But his over the top undying love for the alive or dead Betty chihuahua dog … it seems was triangulation. His mother is a narc who is jealous of anyone or anything that takes his attention from her. Once in a fight two years ago she screamed at him “ I am not a little or big dog.” Funny narc on narc, triangulation worked!
Your stories were very interesting! Thanks!
Sexual manipulations were what I experienced most. They began in childhood with my matrinarc. I think there are two reasons why this made me vulnerable to victimization through sex by narcissists later on.
1) I didn’t learn boundaries. Giving in to sexual demands was normal for me. It wasn’t really a question of whether I enjoyed it or wanted it. The main thing was that I was trained to ignore my feelings, shut myself down, and do as I was told. I think of this early trauma as a kind of school for a broken sexuality. It made me experienced and very responsive, yet distant and numb, so I was able to appeal to many of the wrong kinds of people. I became known as a girl who would keep a bad secret. I rarely said no to anything because I didn’t know I could, so looking back I offered little in the way of Challenge Fuel or wounding. Not that I consciously rationalized it this way at the time but, after all, if I was being sexualized by Mama, what limits were there?
2) Sex worked well as a tactic. It was a reliable go to for the narcissists in my life, so they used it. I think it required them to expend little in the way of anything real beyond the act. It was a very simple, direct way to control me. It was a way to roll all the other manipulations into one big manipulation because it provided direct access to my hope, loneliness, and longing. It also enacted my shame and need to worship and perform sacrifice. The sexual entanglement was the most difficult for me to get away from; even if there was no relationship beyond the night there was still a stain. I ruminated about it even if it left me cold. They’d still been inside me. It had happened. Even though sometimes I felt like a robot doing it there was something about sex which still mattered and felt significant because of what it SHOULD have meant even if it meant nothing. Especially if it meant nothing. As a manipulation it delivered a message to me that said I was something to that narcissist, even if that could never be, even if I was only a toy, a set of holes, the next one, a means to an end. I think they could smell that about me no matter how I tried to hide it. I think they’ve used it because, consciously or not, they knew it was where I’d crack.
Hi Allison,
I’m sorry these were your experiences. Reading your comments made me feel very sad for you.
Children are innocent and at the same time, very impressionable. They need to be protected from information about sex and sexual behaviours. To use sexual manipulations on children is criminal and rightly so.
It was never your fault or your responsibility, Allison. It was insidious manipulation used against you.
I have read somewhere that child sexual abuse is one of the most damaging kinds of abuse and results in severe complex trauma. It leaves a life-long impact that runs deep and is difficult to overcome.
Thank you for your comments, Allison.
Thank you, WN. I no longer believe any of it was my fault. A change came when I spoke with my father a few years ago and realized that I had nothing to do with him abandoning me. Many things resulted from that or were made more of a problem by his absence and abdication of his duties. To my child’s mind I caused it all. Unfortunately when under stress I still become a child again, especially when it comes to sexual matters, but I’m working on it. I may always have that scar. Hopefully my future partners won’t all turn away.
So, yes, none of it was my fault. But it is my responsibility to rebuild my life.
I would say it’s a tie between pity plays and silent treatments. My narc mother used the pity plays against me to get me to feel sorry for her, so I’d do for her and she could get her way.
The silent tteatments were her punishnents for me, when she didn’t get her way. They were the worse, made me feel invisible and hated and unlovable. I turned on myself, as a kid and young adult, when she pretended I didn’t exist. I catch myself still blaming me, when my narc husband sulks. I’ve learned to find something else to do and distract myself, when I’m being ignored. It doesn’t hurt as much, when I get busy doing an errand or going for a walk. Xx
Hi, Rebecca. HG’s TOW video, The Treatment of Lilibet I think it was, made an illuminating point about matrinarcs and how the puberty of their daughters works in the dynamic in light of Lilibet’s future. Did your mother turn up the heat around that time? Mine did.
Hi Allison,
Yes, she did, in fact I commented on that video about that very thing….how my mother seemed to feel threatened by my puberty. She got meaner to me during and after puberty. She told me about sex and made it sound dangerous and life threatening. She told she almost bleed to death having me, so it made me fear childbirth and sex and then the incident with my brother sealed it for me, no childbirth, no kids, made me feel safe from my fears of a bloody death.
I found out later that there was no bleeding to death having me, my birth certificate read, no complications during birth. She lied to me, made me afraid and manipulated me.
I’m sorry you went through worse than me, you didn’t deserve a mother figure that sexually abused you. I can’t imagine what that was like. You’re not alone. Xx
“I’m sorry you went through worse than me…”
I appreciate the sentiment, Rebecca. But I think of it differently. I understand the desire to be supportive through minimizing your own deep suffering, and I thank you. I do it as well, out of habit, but I’m working on it–it’s just a personal thing and not that you need “work”. I haven’t been able to find the person who stated this, but there is an idea about our tendency to compare sufferings which I’ve found helpful to me. It’s that suffering, like air, fills and takes the shape of its container. Therefore, though we show care or try to manage our own experiences by trying to quantify it or find better/worse, it’s the nature of suffering to defy that.
I know what you meant and you’re very kind. When I learned your story I recognized your strength and it helped me. The only comparison I have for you is that you are infinitely sweeter, more generous, and kinder than I. And I won’t hear any argument about that.
Hi Allison,
I’m relieved you didn’t misunderstand my comment. I was worried it came out wrong. I’m glad you understood what I meant and that it was a supportive comment. Xx
I wanted to also tell you that my mother lied to me about my long birth certificate. She told me I didn’t have one. She only gave me the ID size one.
It wasn’t until my parents died, and I went through their documents, that I found my long, official birth certificate. On the back it clearly stated, no complications during birth. I was shocked! She lied to me! Not only do I have a long birth certificate, but it clearly stated I didn’t almost kill her.
She had me feeling guilty for being born. What mother would do that? She even lied to the family counselor about it. All the sympathy she got from braving my birth and all the guilt and fear it made me feel…so much fuel for her. I could scream at her! I feel so much anger over this and you know why? I found my long birth certificate in the beginning of 2024. It took me this long to be able to go through my parents’ personal documents and I found my own. It was too painful to go through beforehand…
Now I know why she hid it from me, it proved she was lying and it was a strong lie, one that caused me to fear having a kid, being pregnant, had me get a tubal ligation, affected my whole life….one damn lie from her. What a manipulative b#$%@! Xx
Oh Rebecca,
The damage that’s caused by their manipulations can run so deep. What your mother did was shameful. I’m so sorry she did that to you. I hope you’re feeling a little better now. Sending hugs!
Rebecca, I am so sorry that you experienced this! I read your last comment to Allison also, no reply button there, what your mother did was an abuse I cannot even have imagined, I am so sorry you had to go through that. My mother used my birth story too, I think it’s likely not uncommon, but in a different way, not one that affected my outlook on my own decisions about children. That is an abuse on an abuse it seems, I’m just so sad for you and I understand your anger at her. I hope you can find a way to resolve it, for yourself.
Hi AV and Leigh,
Thank you both for your supportive words! Xx
I’ve accepted how my mother was and that I nolonger have to deal with her. It was a shock for me how manipulative she was and that she would purposedly hurt me like that….I’m grateful I found out the truth and that I still have children in my life, who I love, so her manipulations didn’t rob me of that joy! Xx
All she suceeded in doing was keeping her own dna from having another generation to continue on….and was that really her goal? I doubt it, but it is what happened. I’m sure her goal backfired on her, which usually is what happens for those Lower Midrange narcs, like her. They self sabotage their own goals, shoot themselves in the foot….which, is kinda justice in the end, really…don’t you agree?
She realized this in the end, when she told me, “Here, I sit with no grandkids of my own.” I looked at her and said nothing. She only had herself to blame, even though she blamed me.
I see now where the real blame lies and her manipulations are done, buried, dead, like her. Xx
Hi Rebecca,
Isn’t it ironic how her manipulations backfired on her. She certainly did shoot herself in the foot.
I’m so glad to hear you’re in a positive place though.
Haha Rebecca, your comment made me laugh a little! My mom is also a lower mid range who shot herself in the foot. All of her abuse drove two of her children completely away from her, decades ago, and made the third, myself, go ANC. They are good for doing that, it is true. And then whining about it.
Glad to hear you have children in your life that you love and that you are doing okay with things re your mother.
Hi AV and Leigh,
I do find it amusing that LMR narcs tend to sabotage their own goals and she did lose me in the end. She sadly became the sickly person, she worked so hard to convince others, that she was. All of her years of not taking care of her diabetes, got her in the end. My anger towards her has calmed to barely being there anymore. I feel pity for her mostly now and I still love her, despite everything. I don’t think I’ll ever stop loving her. That bond won’t break, even with her death. Xx
Hi Rebecca,
I lost this thread again. I got caught up in threads about the psychic and JK Rowling.
I recently had a conversation with someone else about feeling pity. I don’t feel pity for narcs. After that conversation and reading your comment, I think i realized why. Feeling pity for them drives me to want to help them. There’s a benefit for me too because then it means I’m needed. But I don’t want to help them anymore. And I don’t want to pity the ones that are gone already either because I don’t want that feeling to spill over to the narcs that are still around. I need to draw that line to protect myself.
I think I understand why you still love your mother though. Its probably for the same reason I still love my narc daughter. How can we not?
Might the lingering feeling we have for familial narcs like mothers and daughters be more a feeling of indebtedness and responsibility that we name “love” because that is what is expected of us societally?
Hi NA,
With regards to my daughter, its a little bit of both. There’s definitely love there but I also feel responsibility.
Hmm. You’ve given me something to think about. How do I let go of that responsibility?
Thank you, NA.
Hi Leigh and AV,
That family bond is hard to break, especially between mother and child. Xx
It’s nice to hear from you again, Leigh! Xx
I had some good news last month! I got away from the LMRSNarc boss I had and transferred to another building! I had to go through a number of people and climb the ladder to the upper level, but I reached the right person and followed HG’s advice! I’m now happier at the new building and got away from LMRSnarc boss! I can’t believe the difference in how I feel at work now! The stress level is wayyyyy down and my nerves are getting used to a calmer environment….night and day difference….I’m not adjusting to my calmer nerves. Who would have thought I’d have to adjust to being calmer? I’m so grateful I was able to get out! Xx
Thanks HG for the advice and I’m so glad I listened! Xx
Hi Rebecca!
That’s wonderful news! I’m so happy to hear you got away from your narc boss. Having peace at work truly is a blessing that you deserve!
It’s nice to hear from you too, Rebecca!
NA,
“Might the lingering feeling we have for familial narcs like mothers and daughters be more a feeling of indebtedness and responsibility that we name “love” because that is what is expected of us societally?”
I just wrote, and lost, a long reply to this comment. I am going to see if I can condense it.
I do not have feelings of love for my mother, do not remember ever having any.
I do not feel indebted to my mother.
I wonder about responsibility sometimes, would I be here now if I had moved away like my siblings did, as I wanted to?
I believe love is a choice and is actions. Narcs cannot experience love, non-narcs can.
I share with people, if it comes up, what a crappy, abusive upbringing I had at my mother’s hands, I am not concerned with saying what is expected of me societally. I was surprised that you wrote this, as if we don’t have the ability to think for ourselves.
I understand your thinking, it may be easier to swallow than to believe people love abusers. Yuck. I don’t like to think of that, she deserves nothing. But I’m not doing it for her, this is about me. I am making my choices, it’s empowering for me, it makes me feel good about who I am. I love the contrast between who she is and who I am. I love that I’m not who she wanted me to be, she wanted me to be just like her. I love that she failed at making that happen. I attribute it to my Super, she didn’t stand a chance.
This is a really good point, AV!
You’re not doing it for your mom, you’re doing it for you. I’ve heard TS say that about her mom too. I’ve done the opposite with my mother. But I know she’s well taken care of so its easy for me to completely cut ties.
But I do act similar with my narc husband. I don’t stay for him, I stay for me. My assets mean security and I don’t want to give up that security. Its very different when you make a choice with full awareness.
I don’t follow societal norms either. Many people know I’m estranged from my mother and I don’t try to hide it either.
With my daughter, its a sense of responsibility and obligation as well as love. That might be more difficult to overcome.
Hi AV and Leigh,
Narc children in our lives are hard to completely pull away from, go no contact…I pulled away from my LMRVN mother, but I didn’t completly go no contact. I would still call her and check on her and talk to my Dad. I didn’t have the heart to completely cut them off. I tried, it hurt too much, the pain it was causing my Dad….I couldn’t stand there and know I was hurting him. Yeah, she used my love for my Dad against me and my love for her too. I see how she manipulated me even when she was really sick and not putting on a production of being sick. I know what you mean Leigh and AV, when you struggle with your narc child or children. My mother was the same for me.
My narc stepdaughter is one I pulled away from and for the most part I do stay away from her, but she does come around for her Dad and I love her little girl so much….I don’t have the heart to not love her…..there lies the ensnarement and the web I’m caught in. Xx
At least at work I managed to get away from my narc boss, go completely GOSO with him, transferred to another location and kept my job! The little victories count too. Xx I had to climb the chain of command to get my voice heard and some action to be taken, but I didn’t give up. I don’t give up, too stubborn to sit it out! Xx
It was nice to hear from you both, AV and Leigh! Xx💕
Well Leigh, some will call my “doing it for myself” ET. That’s okay. I talked with HG about my situation at some length and he understood my position, even though we all know that NC is the best. Hang in there!
Hi AV
Maybe some would see you doing it for yourself as flawed logic due to ET. Who cares! Let them think what they want. You made the best choice for you. Just as I have made the best choice for me.
I’m hanging in there! Thank you!
My comment was initiated by Rebecca saying she still loved her mother (I make no judgement on that) and it got me was musing about my own familial narcs and experiences with outsiders saying things like “but they’re your family” and “you only have one sister/brother” etc, and the societal expectation that you MUST love them. I was not sure the lingering feelings we have after a family narc passes is love or something else that we attribute to love because we are “supposed” to love our family members, and wondered did others feel conflicted also.
That’s still allowed here isn’t it? To muse about one’s own situation and question if others feel similar?
Hello NA,
I’m not sure who you’re addressing in this comment but since I’m part of this conversation, I wanted to respond. In your original comment it wasn’t clear that you were musing about your own situation. I hope musing about our own situations are still allowed because I still do it from time to time.
In my experience, I only feel conflicted with my narc daughter. I don’t know if I’ll ever be able to draw the line with her. The responsibility, obligation and love is still there.
As far as my parents are concerned, when someone says to me, “but they’re your family”, I usually respond with, “That’s nice. I don’t care.” I’m not conflicted about that at all and I’m ok with the fact that I don’t follow social norms or societal expectations.
NA,
“Might the lingering feeling we have for familial narcs like mothers and daughters be more a feeling of indebtedness and responsibility that we name “love” because that is what is expected of us societally?”
There is nothing in this that indicates to me that you were thinking of yourself, especially when posted after a fellow blogger stated she loved her mother.
“I was not sure the lingering feelings we have after a family narc passes is love or something else that we attribute to love because we are “supposed” to love our family members, and wondered did others feel conflicted also.
That’s still allowed here isn’t it? To muse about one’s own situation and question if others feel similar?”
My reply to your first comment was a response to your first question here. I feel no conflict about not loving my mother. She’s not passed yet but being that my dad has and my feelings towards him haven’t changed before to after, I’m not concerned about them changing for my mom either.
No one remotely indicated anything isn’t allowed.
When I muse about my own situation and wonder if others feel similarly, that is how I will ask it, for clarity.
I have no beef with you NA whatsoever, never have. But your initial comment sounded to me more to like a challenge than a question. I responded to how it read to me, that is all.
I am not responsible for the interpretation and comprehension abilities of others. I provided expansion after my initial musing/question. It was obvious you took offense, AV, by some of the comments you made. (That you were surprised I asked it, as if people could not think for themselves, that some may see it as your ET, that you read it not as a question but a challenge, for example). It was none of those things. If you have difficulty with clarity and/or what and how I post, you have the option not to respond rather than imagine personal offense and continue on as though you were individually addressed. You were not.
NA says, “I am not responsible for the interpretation and comprehension abilities of others.” I respectfully disagree. As the writer, it is most definitely our responsibility to be as clear as possible when we’re trying to convey a message. You were not clear and that’s why it was left open to interpretation. That’s not the readers fault. You left out an important piece of information. In your original comment you did not articulate that you were thinking about your own familial relationships. Had you given us that piece of information, you may have gotten different responses.
In my mind, you were suggesting that we call it love but its really not love. Instead its the obligation we feel to follow social norms and societal expectations. That’s the furthest thing from the truth for me. I feel absolutely no obligation to follow social norms. None whatsoever.
Hi AV, Leigh and NA,
I’m sorry I missed your comment to me Narc Angel and that things got misunderstood during the conversation. Xx
I’m sorry my comment caused a misunderstanding between the three of you.
To answer your question to me NA; I have conflicting feelings for my mother, that I’ve had ever since I was a little kid. I both loved her and resented her. As a child it was difficult to accept the resentment part of my feelings. It made me feel bad, like I was bad for partially resenting my own mother. What child does that? I felt the question in my heart before I understood it….I was conflicted my whole childhood.. I think it’s why I don’t like myself sometimes and why I see myself through shit smeared lens. I blamed me for my feelings. I beat me up for my feelings towards my mother, the resentment ate at me. I was too young to understand why it was ok to feel resentment for my abuser. She was my mother to me, at that stage.
I still love her, but my resentment is fading…the more I understand narcissism the more I understand why she acted that way towards me. The resentment is still there, it’s just not consuming me now.
I think HG’s work has a part to play in my resentment fading. I don’t know if it will completely fade away, but society’s obligations didn’t play any part in how I feel about my mother. I make my own mind up on how I feel and why. I don’t let society think for me, no offense to you, NA.
I hope my reply answers your question NA and no worries between us. Xx
Rebecca,
Your comment did not cause a misunderstanding. Please don’t blame yourself here.
“I am not responsible for the interpretation and comprehension abilities of others. I provided expansion after my initial musing/question. It was obvious you took offense, AV, by some of the comments you made. (That you were surprised I asked it, as if people could not think for themselves, that some may see it as your ET, that you read it not as a question but a challenge, for example). It was none of those things. If you have difficulty with clarity and/or what and how I post, you have the option not to respond rather than imagine personal offense and continue on as though you were individually addressed. You were not.”
Wow, you continue with the passive aggression, as if it’s working. I find it hard to believe you’re still sticking with “your own musing/questions”. While you did “provide expansion” after I made it clear that your initial comment was annoying to me, I wouldn’t go as far as offensive, again, your initial comment in no way indicated you were looking for others opinions or musing your own situation.
I was, and am, surprised that you suggest that we be concerned with what society expects, as if we can’t think for ourselves. I would’ve expected that you of all people would know that we, as empaths, can and do think for ourselves, once we are enlightened about narcissism. And, as everyone in that conversation was.
I don’t care if you think it’s my ET, I happen to think some your responses may be your ET.
I don’t need to be individually addressed, though I have noticed that not individually addressing people is a norm with you, makes it easier to not take responsibility for what you’ve said to someone, I imagine. I did not imagine personal offense however, nor am I too daft to understand what others write, I understood you perfectly, from my perspective. From my perspective, it appeared a challenge. Nothing wrong with that, if your willing to own it. It’s the denial that rings untrue.
I did individually address you, because it was you to whom I was writing. I like such clarity.
Why would I not respond, what you wrote prompted me to write, on a blog I’ve followed and written on for a number of years, a place where I understand we are all free to comment if we want to. A place where many of us have the same thing in common, a life affected by a narcissist. It does not mean that we will all like or respect each other, really fine. If you dislike that I responded to you, you don’t have to respond to me, it makes no difference to me at all. I will carry on as I have, unless HG says something to me, I do not believe I have done anything wrong.
AV
You’ve hit the nail on the head by saying you understood me completely from YOUR perspective. Unfortunately, your perspective appears to have been caused by your misunderstanding of my initial post, it’s content, and intention. It was not a challenge and I was not saying people cannot think for themselves. That is the truth. If you persist in thinking otherwise you are of course free to do so, but I have provided all the explanation i feel necessary and hope this concludes the issue for you.
Rebecca
There is no need for you to feel bad, you did nothing wrong. Thank you for responding with your thoughts and feelings regarding your mother.
Hi Rebecca, no need for an apology, none of this is on you. I apologize to you for my part, I knew it would probably be unsettling for you and as such should not have responded to NA’s original comment. It was not my intent to unsettle you at all and I am sorry that happened.
Leigh
Strange, your initial response to my post did not indicate you had an issue. You thanked me and said it gave you something to think about. That changed after AV. I expanded on my initial post and it still wasnt good enough. Thats where my responsibility for the interpretation and comprehension of others ends. I have explained more than I care to, so if anyone is determined to continue some imagined drama have at it but I am done responding to nonsense.
NA,
You are 100% correct. Your original comment gave me food for thought and I absolutely appreciated it. It made me realize that I need to figure out how to stop feeling obligation for my daughter.
Obviously, I did misinterpret your original comment because I thought you were saying that its not love but obligation due to societal expectations. That’s why in my original response to you I said it was both love and obligation.
I just wanted to respond to your comment about you saying you’re not responsible for how others interpret or comprehend your comment. I agree to some extent but I also think its helpful to be clearer in our writing. But apparently I wasn’t clear in my writing because you thought I have an issue, when I don’t. I just wanted to share how I viewed it.
Hi AV, NA and Leigh,
I’m ok, AV…no worries. I was upset that there was another argument and I felt it was my comment that started it. Xx
You three tell me it’s not my fault. Ok, thank you, but maybe we can ask each other if we are reading the comments meaning or intention….before we assume what it means, or assume the intention behind the comment? Please, it would avoid a lot of hurt feelings and misunderstandings. Xx
I know I overthink what people say to me too and I’ll roll it around in my head for hours, overthinking it when I need to ask them what they meant, or simply drop it and not worry about it. Ha! Yeah, I can’t help, but worry about it for a while….xx
Thanks for your kind words and I do so enjoy your comments here. I’ve learned so much here and it’s nice to get another view on situations and advice from you all that help here. Xx
I’m ok AV and it was kind of you to be concerned for me. Xx
“AV
You’ve hit the nail on the head by saying you understood me completely from YOUR perspective. Unfortunately, your perspective appears to have been caused by your misunderstanding of my initial post, it’s content, and intention. It was not a challenge and I was not saying people cannot think for themselves. That is the truth. If you persist in thinking otherwise you are of course free to do so, but I have provided all the explanation i feel necessary and hope this concludes the issue for you.”
I have not asked for further explanation and the matter was concluded for me with my first reply to your initial comment. This conversation could’ve been easily resolved with a simple, “Hey I didn’t word that well, this is what I meant…”, if your thinking was as you say it was. A suggestion, take it or leave it.
Hello Leigh,
Tbh, I don’t get this tension between you all. Maybe you, guys, have some history in this blog, I’m not aware of. As for my interpretation of an initial comment by NarcAngel, I understood it exactly the way she described it later in followup posts. I can totally relate to her comment, cause I’m in this situation myself.
“In my mind, you were suggesting that we call it love but its really not love. Instead its the obligation we feel to follow social norms and societal expectations.”
No, I don’t think she meant that. She said “might”, she was not addressing anyone and they were just her thoughts on this subject. I don’t see where she said we couldn’t think for ourselves and should follow social norms. I don’t understand why her comment was taken as a challenge.
I saw a post from Bubbles, that her mother passed away. I have the deepest condolences to her about her loss and in some way I envy her. She has good memories with her. I don’t. (I don’t have a single good memory with my mom from childhood) I can’t relate to what Bubbles is feeling. I picture if my mother dies tomorrow, and I don’t feel anything, I can’t squeeze a tear from my eyes at this thought. It’s scary, really, considering that per HG’s EDC I’m an Empath and supposed to feel empathy for everyone. Do I love her ? I don’t know. I cannot answer this question to myself. Probably yes, she gave me life, she didn’t do abortion (she used contraception, the probability of her getting pregnant was 1%), though during my childhood she kept saying she should have had. I don’t feel anger, resentment towards her. I feel pity for her. I communicate with her, but not opening up. My mother could live for another 20-30 years more, maybe by that time I would change and feel differently. Perhaps, I would cry at her funeral unless I die earlier.
Back to NarcAngel’s comment. I do, actually, feel indebtedness to my mother, because as I said she gave me life and didn’t throw me at a garbage bin after a birth. Is it because of social norms? for me personally no, but I can understand why it might be a factor. Religion also dictates how we should behave and feel. My grandmother is very religious and she kept saying that if a person follows God, he/she should forgive and love his/her parents. Therefore I should do the same for my mother (her daughter) despite how she treated me. Jesus forgave everyone, etc.
My indebtedness towards my mother comes somewhere from within myself, not society. I don’t know what is that. Probably, the thing HG calls Moral Compass. It tells me that killing, stealing, lying, cheating, etc is bad. I can’t get rid of that, though sometimes I wish I could. I feel guilty when I cross those lines. Like betraying myself, my core values.
Anyway, till age of ~30 I did strongly believe that I loved my mother, now I can see that it was as NarcAngel said just “feeling of indebtedness and responsibility that we name love”. I really like her comment. She nailed it for me. I don’t get where it is offensive or anything. Maybe I’m missing something and don’t see the way you guys find it.
And I’m not defending NarcAngel (I don’t know her), I can see she could do it perfectly herself, better not to cross with her. I just wanted to provide my interpretation of her initial comment for the objectivity. My two cents.
Hi Arya
Thank you for sharing your view, Arya. I did misunderstand NA’s original comment but I wasn’t offended by it. I actually thanked her for it. I was just trying to share how I viewed the original comment.
I have a narc mother too. I don’t feel indebtedness to her though. The only thing I feel for her is gratitude for giving me life. But giving me life is the only thing she ever gave me so that’s why I feel no indebtedness to her. I had to become her caregiver at a very young age.
I apologize if my comments have made you feel uneasy. I have a bit of a mouth on me.
NA,
I woke this morning and one other thing dawned on me. I did in fact answer your question, in my first reply to you. Though you claim I didn’t understand the question, clearly I did, since I did share my experience regarding what you asked. I am not sure what about my reply started this whole thing, but I understand that you didn’t like my answer. I am not responsible for that, you will need to figure that out for yourself. I hope this concludes the issue for both of us.
Rebecca,
Thank you for your kind reply, especially this piece:
“maybe we can ask each other if we are reading the comments meaning or intention….before we assume what it means, or assume the intention behind the comment?”.
I will work at being better at this, thank you for bringing it up. I agree that it could resolve a lot of things and I didn’t do it here.
Arya0901,
Hi, thank you for your comment. I took NA’s initial comment as a challenge because it was stated in a conversation three people were having where one or two of them were stating something different from what NA suggested. I didn’t see that as necessarily a negative either. I gave my personal experience in response and stated surprise about one piece. That piece has continued to surprise me but again, not offend, not necessarily a negative, just surprise.
One thing I have found as a recovering empath is that one of my go-tos can be defensiveness. If I don’t catch it in time, and check if the situation warrants such a reaction, I can get myself into trouble. I do not believe I am the only empath with this issue. I am working on it though.
Anyway, thank you again. I am moving away from this conversation, I think a few of us may have been misunderstood and I have explained myself enough now also.
Arya
You interpreted my comment as was intended. I can relate very well to what you wrote. Thank you for understanding and providing confirmation that I am not alone with these thoughts. There is minor drama from time to time and usually springs from misunderstanding or misinterpretation. It happens and we move on. I’m glad you have found your way here where you will find the best information bar none. HG will provide the answers you seek. Welcome.
‘Tbh, I don’t get this tension between you all. Maybe you, guys, have some history in this blog, I’m not aware of.’
History affects some interactions on the blog. But readers also respond in ways that are informed by their past experiences off-blog or their current feelings about themselves or other people.
‘As for my interpretation of an initial comment by NarcAngel, I understood it exactly the way she described it later in followup posts….I don’t see where she said we couldn’t think for ourselves and should follow social norms. I don’t understand why her comment was taken as a challenge.’
Logically it doesn’t make sense. My guess is NA’s initial comment may have hit a spot for AV that she feels somewhat sensitive about (whether she understands something or is in control of her own decisions). NA’s subsequent responses may have prompted further reaction and just possibly Leigh’s praise added to AV’s sense that she was pursuing justice and encouraged her to keep going.
“Might the lingering feeling we have for familial narcs like mothers and daughters be more a feeling of indebtedness and responsibility that we name “love” because that is what is expected of us societally?”
With my mom, she was raised by a woman (stepmother) who physically and emotionally abused her on a regular basis beating her up and morally destroying her self worth, in all sadistic ways possible. My mom has lost both her parents being very little and endlessly craved for a loving parent and justified all of the horrific acts, trying to please her new mother. It only changed when she turned 17 and had to move to another town because of her career path. Interestingly the last drop was a simple letter in which the stepmother continued to morally destroy her. My mom explained it as something irreversibly turned inside her and she stopped to exist for her. She never visited or mentioned that woman except only when I began to ask.
What occurs to me now is that the finality of the separation hit during the physical absence from the abuser after she moved out. She was in a solid No Contact status on that occasion.
Only once did this woman reappear when I was around 8, she came to pick me up from school and wanted to abduct me which was prevented by my teacher and principal. That woman was mad and possibly in a fuel crisis. She vanished after that and we never saw her again.
Perhaps the variety of a Mid-Range persuasion involves more honed manipulations (compared to a violent Lesser with a sadistic streak) influencing the web of feelings of the victim, lingering alongside the conflict of what kind of love that is and why? The broader familial/friend/colleague environment may also only have encountered the good side of the narcissist and would be judgemental of the non-loving ACON (A Child of the Narcissist), unaware what went on behind closed doors, unintentionally guilt tripping the ACON for not expressing positivity about their parent. Including the general societal expectation of “Honor your father and mother” which is easily said by those who had loving parents.
My mom tells me that she wants to forgive that woman but can’t and she is conflicted about that. I explain to her that forgiveness is not required but the understanding that the abuser was forged by abuse and that they didn’t choose to be abused. Telling her to put herself in that woman’s shoes when she was a little girl and abuse was inflicted upon her and she had to evacuate her true self and move to a place within her psyche where she would feel safe by raising a wall, a construct which was forged by the abusive circumstances and her genetic predisposition. The true self didn’t know how to survive and vanished and instead a particular construct/coping mechanism was activated to create a predator in order to survive amongst other predators. Predators are designed to survive like all other creatures and we don’t judge them for that, nor justify or tolerate their abuse, nor play the superior-inferior games of “I shall forgive you, sinner”. We learn to understand the construct and don’t take it personally.
This helps my mom periodically to let go of the conflict, removing the trigger for mentally reliving the abuse and asking herself “why did she do it where I’ve done nothing to her, only wanting her love, protection and care, doing everything she asked for”.
I assume this was a similar confusion the child (soon to become a narcissist) would have experienced and only a couple more or less genes stood in the way for the different outcome.
Annaamel,
“‘Tbh, I don’t get this tension between you all. Maybe you, guys, have some history in this blog, I’m not aware of.’
History affects some interactions on the blog. But readers also respond in ways that are informed by their past experiences off-blog or their current feelings about themselves or other people.
‘As for my interpretation of an initial comment by NarcAngel, I understood it exactly the way she described it later in followup posts….I don’t see where she said we couldn’t think for ourselves and should follow social norms. I don’t understand why her comment was taken as a challenge.’
Logically it doesn’t make sense. My guess is NA’s initial comment may have hit a spot for AV that she feels somewhat sensitive about (whether she understands something or is in control of her own decisions). NA’s subsequent responses may have prompted further reaction and just possibly Leigh’s praise added to AV’s sense that she was pursuing justice and encouraged her to keep going.”
Why do you insist on speaking for me? What I wrote to NA was what I meant from how I perceived what she wrote. What she wrote came across to me as the same as what you’re doing in the above comment, speaking for others. And giving false, or assumed, reasoning why it “might be so”. Not everyone will see things as everyone else, which is normal and acceptable, and since you are not in my brain, you should not try to interpret what is going on there.
Jordy
What a horrible situation for your mom. A child who has already suffered the loss of their initial source of bonding, only to be met with abuse rather than healing for her loss. So did she previously refer to “loving” her stepmother and then stop using that term when she gained distance?
Your moms separation from her stepmonster at 17 really does reinforce the effectiveness of HG’s No Contact as the gold standard for gaining clarity and eventual escape where possible. In your moms case not a planned No Contact but effective all the same.
Hello NarcAngel! Yes, there was nothing left after that, no feelings for that woman any longer. Only questions of why she was like that and the inability to forgive that woman because my mom thought she must forgive, must find a resolution through forgiveness. Which is a complex issue with a dose of accuracy “Forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing”. But it is only since I began to share with her HG’s information which helps to find that resolution and the understanding of why “they do not know what they are doing”.
I think my mom’s initial love for the abuser stemmed from the situation of her child’s psyche and the circumstances which will be similar to other children. After losing her family my mom ended up in an orphanage and the only activity she performed from that moment on was being in front of a window or the entrance, constantly looking out for her parents to come and take her home. She wasn’t speaking, not playing with other children and maintained only one focus of craving for a loving parent, waiting. And when this woman appeared and rescued her, my mom’s gratitude went beyond and she projected her love onto that woman assuming she must have loved her because she came for her. Mom accepted all of the woman’s flaws (abuse) and took the blame onto herself whilst trying to please her new mother who saved her from the orphanage. Her child psyche didn’t question the reason and couldn’t be critical of that woman. She accepted the insults, the violence and the reasons the woman provided – “your fault”.
My mom was her servant and her punching pad from a very young age but it all didn’t make her unlove or continue to try to prove her good nature and try to reach that woman’s heart until she had to accept that nothing will change and the distance and the new life helped her to unchain.
She described that the hurt and disappointment she experienced from that letter hitting her in a time when she began to thrive on her own and hoped for any positive sign of approval, was pivotal. Taking the wheel of her new life into her own hands wasn’t compatible any longer with whatever that woman was offering. The letter was attempting again to bring her down, to break her and I think the hurt she experienced in that moment was a tipping point but also the freedom made its impact.
How is it for you NA? And how is it going with your sister and her situation, if it’s okay for you to share it?
Hi Allison,
Hope you have a great New Years! I hope HG and everyone on the blog has a great New Years! ❤️❤️xx
Happy holidays Rebecca:
My husband is a master of silent treatment with a caveat, he leaves but sends me endless love songs. I keep having to find my accounts on things and cancel. It’s a form of communication: 1. I am punishing you with silence, I am superior to you, I control the communication ( you see after the first time he did it when I feared he was dead or injured, once I found HG and learned about it, I never contacted him, I considered myself single and found a man I could talk to who I had a relationship with! This infuriated him to no extent.) 2. The love song messages were further control as one way. And meant to keep me stay put ( I did not) end of: control, control, control. His whole family engaged in silent treatments and some forever estranged until death. I guess if you can’t control, death is better. I never had heard of silent treatments or experienced them until my husband. It was shocking but I guess I am good at it. Give me a silent treatment and Madonnas song ‘Holiday’ plays! Sounds like you agree;) hugs
What’s weird about my husband is that he never ever goes away. Same pattern. Leaves and runs to normal bates bio mum, sends me endless nonstop messages from unknown numbers, accounts he sets up for me on platforms or uses friends or mails flowers, poems, gifts. Then become “single”, he appears and gets rage fully jealous then wants to come back. I didn’t take him back for 6 years.I am not moving or changing my number or work emails for money reasons. So I just visual a future and that ends it as he is highly unsafe. HG would say applying logic. What’s odd is that the devalue comes when he feels I am with another. Otherwise it’s this nonstop love bombing combined with “ silence.” He basically silences my response and when I truly start to move on he goes crazy. It’s nonstop attempts at control over 12 years.i am getting divorced. Is this similar with you?
Hi Contagious,
Merry Christmas and New Years to you and your family! Xx
My ex husband ULType B Elite didn’t lovebomb me like that. We were students in college and we got married and divorced the same year.
When we divorced, I blocked him on social media and wouldn’t answer when he called. He tried reaching me through facebook, creating new accounts to get me to talk to him.
I kept blocking his new accounts because he’d tell me who he was and that he wanted to be friends. He did give up, not long after we divorced, but he does pop out now and then to try it again, last one was 2021 and we divorced in 2000.
He didn’t harrass me for 12 years back to back, like what you went through. Xx I would have gotten an PFA on him, if he had. Xx