Questioning Me

Do feel free to ask me anything you like. I am here for you to dip into my mind and for you to benefit from learning how I view the world. No question is off limits and if you want to establish a dialogue with me, then so much the better. You will be helping me so I can show the treatment team that I am interacting with people in this setting. You can ask me why I do certain things, what am I thinking, what my favourite food is, whatever you like. This is your chance to extract as much knowledge and information from me as you possibly can. If you want to just make a statement, go ahead. Fill your boots. I don’t know you so I won’t fly into a rage (this does happen when people I know question me but that is because they have an agenda – you don’t because we don’t know one another). I look forward to hearing from you.

Advertisements

318 Comments

  1. Hallo HG! Random question if you will indulge me:
    My MMR’s IPPS has several narcs in her life. I believe the last one burnt her pretty bad.
    Before he ensnared her (in her 50’s), she had remained single for six years , focused on career & friends.
    However I highly suspect she’s Codep.
    I’ve read your book CHAINED and am rereading for the 3rd time. I had always thought codep women HAD to be in a relationship at all times.

    **My question to you is; would it be unusual for a codep to get so burnt by a narc, they choose to remain single for several years after discard?**

    (( I suspect she HAD decided to quit relationships altogether, but gave the MMR a chance bc he had been her highschool sweetheart and she regretted dumping him- decades of even worse narcs muddied her memories of a couple years in highschool as his IPPS before she escaped, I suspect)—she said once to me that if it didn’t work with HIM , she was done w men. I suspect she WAS done but then he came along.
    Is that possible for a codep? Or only a damaged standard ?

    Thanks HG 🙏❤️

    1. 1. She may not be a codependent.
      2. She may not have been ensnared by several narcissists.
      3. She may not have been single for six years.
      I make these points because you may not have all information available about this individual and it is ALWAYS important when dealing with this matter to go to the evidence, rather than perception.
      That stated, if the presented information is accurate, it may have been that she was driven to a point of collapse as a codependent that she has not engaged romantically with any narcissists. It may also be the case that she did not have any romantic entanglements (formal) in that time, but had a combination of entanglements in the informal romantic, familial and social spheres with narcissists which would feed the addiction.

      Thank you for reading the book.

  2. HG,

    Say you realized that your kid (early elementary/primary school) was a know-it-all, and not always with the facts or knowledge to back him/herself up but certainly the self-confidence and ego, how would you respond to it? My assumption is that you’d encourage it. But how would you navigate that, especially in front of other kids and their parents? People expect parents to correct their kids on these things. What would you say to your kid in private? What would you say to your kid in public (assuming you wish to stay on good terms with the other parents for one reason or another)?

  3. HG, how does music affect you? My musician friends always want to learn how to play music they like or wish they had written it, I find myself choreographing dances or figure skating routines in my head (usually with awesome moves that I can’t actually do), some people just use it as background to seduction attempts or an excuse to shove people in the pit, and of course some people will claim to like a band just because everybody else does.

    I know you use it to create Ever Presence, but do you have a visceral reaction to it yourself? (Aside from detesting Celine Dion.)

  4. HG I was just watching a movie and the character is a sociopath bc he was a child soldier – but he was rescued and lived a life of privilege afterwards
    Due to this he became a Greater I think ?
    However if he’d remained a child soldier without education or privilege, could he have become a lesser?
    Is the school at all dependent on circumstances and accessibility of educational and awareness expansion ?

    Thx

      1. Ok thank you! I imagine it is a mix of many factors – IQ, education, the parents, the general environment, the particular personality of the narc?
        I’m not sure if you’ve elaborated on this and I missed it?

        1. Woke: I missed a lot of this as well, perhaps. I remember HG mentioned cognizant, but that is about it. I wonder what makes one malicious or not, or a middle, and why and how are some mid rangers more intelligent than some greaters, and what does that even mean? And what ends a spectrum to put one in a different category otherwise: The awareness makes a Greater is about all I understand regarding the spectrum. HG does say that there is more that he has yet to tell us about all of this. But, this line of questioning of yours is interesting to me as well. And maybe it is all spelled out somewhere already in one spot, but, if so, I have not seen it, neither. And if it is all spelled out in one spot, and I have seen it, maybe it is the broad brush stroke that HG talks about? And not most of the particulars? Or, perhaps it is too much yet for me to understand, and that is possible as well. I too want to know more.

  5. HG, could it be expected for a narcissist mother to become enraged if her children are not invited to an event?

        1. Violetta
          Petkov was most likely a narcissist and her husband may have been one, as well, and I suspect they are lessers based on their behavior. That poor little girl and her family; how sad.

          1. I feel sorry for Petkov’s own kids, too. At best, she humiliates them publicly by being the crazy mom; at worst, she’ll turn them into monstrous clones of herself.

            Can you imagine? You find out your kids weren’t invited to a friend’s party. Do you talk to the grown-ups to find if there’s a good reason? Was it family only? Is the friend’s condition making it difficult for her to deal with any kind of rough activity? Are the kids too rambunctious around her? Did one of them use a naughty word? (“Ralphie, where did you hear that word? Mrs. Schwarz, do you know what your son said?”)

            Do you even say, “I’m sorry Susie doesn’t want to be friends anymore. You can make some other friends at school or soccer practice. Maybe Susie will change her mind, but whether she does or not, you don’t have to have only one friend. Do you want me to talk to Beckie’s mom about a playdate?”?

            Nope, you drive past Susie’s house with a coffin float and post skull images on the web.

            Can you imagine having a mother like that? If any of the neighborhood kids aren’t too terrified to play with you at all, their parents will probably forbid it. Thanks to her trying to help them with their social lives, they’re probably completely isolated. Maybe the folks running the meth lab down the road will make them welcome.

          2. Violetta
            Either way, it doesn’t look good for the Petkov children. It’s humiliating all around when you think about it.

            All of your questions and thoughts are valid and from our empathic POV, that is how we would think or respond in this situation BUT, from the Narcissist’s POV, they lash out, deflect and punish (for fuel) to heal the wound of not being invited to the Birthday party. It is a clash of realities.

            Narcissistic parents, especially lessers, are a nightmare! And the meth lab down the road might be the lesser of two evils. Those poor children!

  6. Greetings again, HG.

    I did a search but cannot see where, or if, you have previously produced any writings on Narcissists and Wills.
    That would be an interesting topic, for us mere empaths to be aware of.

    My father (a Lesser Narc) passed away 6 years ago. He was a very financially healthy man, but also very mean. I was estranged from him in the later years as I could see how he manipulated people.

    With reference to the Will he left behind, he completely shafted all those who idolised him and took care of him through his life, by leaving them absolutely zilch…. and that includes his wife of 15 years!! And to those he did bequeath anything to, they are unable to access any monies due to all funds being tied up in various kinds of technicalities, and there is little hope of this position changing at anytime soon……

    This is not the only time I have heard of a Narc promising so much to so many, but in the end, leaving them with nothing.

    Sounds familiar, eh??

  7. Good morning HG

    Just polite curiosity, but you seem to be very clued into the Latin language, by your addition every now and then of Latin phrases into your text. Was this knowledge gained only from your attendance at Grammar school or did you go on to study Latin at Uni level?

      1. Thanks HG, for some strange reason, I thought you may have had some further studies into Law.
        My simplistic unknowledgeable mind had to google that phrase :-)

  8. Hello HG.You’ve said ALL NARCS lack empathy

    I need to understand the difference between a narcissist and a narcissistic sociopath ? (If not empathy)

  9. HG, when my MMRN discarded me he said “you are not feeding me energy”. Does this indicate he has some awareness that he requires fuel, and I wasn’t providing it adequately?

  10. I work for this guy once or twice a month. I’ve come to know he’s a narc. He’s been trying to seduce me since we met. I’m married so I did not give in but I’ve been flirtatious though. He’s very aggressive. He has these outbursts of anger at me whenever I say anything. Since I only have to see him every two weeks or less I’ve been able to keep a distance. Since I am learning so much about narcissism I am feeling confident enough not only to not give him fuel but also I am playing with him. I am showing false interest, I am defying him in a non-obvious way. It works like a charm. He is so predictable. I am trying to wound him. He doesn’t know I know he’s a narc. *Where will my teasing get me? What are the consequences of what I’m doing*. Thank you so much. Writing to you all the way from Buenos Aires.

  11. Hi, HG. You mention many times it is important to know what role you had in the fuel matrix regarding your entanglement with the narcissist. Why and how is this relevant? I’m considering finding that out first before we discuss how to control my ET, because a few things have happened that kept me wondering, thereof my recently increased ET.

    1. Because it enables you to gain understanding which is the platform for freedom, it assists with tackling emotional thinking (if you believe yourself to be an IPPS when you are not, this has all manner of ramifications) it enables you to ascertain the likelihood of hoovering, the likelihood of smearing and the manner in which hoovering may take place so you can ensure your NC regime is the most effective. I recommend you organise the fuel matrix consultation and then arrange to speak with me to discuss its finding with regard to its impact on your no contact regime.

      1. Thanks for your answer. I was actually putting that aside all this time in an attempt to protect myself from too much thinking but it is having the opposite effect: the more I don’t know, the more I think about different case scenarios that may not even apply to me. I’ll go ahead and do that first.

  12. Hi HG,

    Do narcissists ever pose as their victims on forums and rewrite their view of the story as if they are the ones it happened to?

    If someone was to do that type of behaviour, is that a kind of absent Hoover? Thought Hoover? Or what would that be?

    1. They may pose as their victim, but more likely they believe themselves to be the victim and therefore tell their own story maintaining that they are the one who is the real victim, when they are not.

  13. HG, is a narcissist who does not physically assault others nor threaten to do so, but screams, becomes verbally abusive and throws objects in addition to engaging in pity plays (depending on the situation) more likely to be an UL or LMR?

  14. What do you look for in an IPPS? What are your criteria for someone to own such a coveted space? What turns you on (not in a sexual sense)

  15. Hg a few questions

    1a-are you the only Ultra in existence that you are aware of?
    1b-if so, does this not unnerve you even slightly? I myself get unnerved just bc obky a small percentage of ppl have experienced the perspective of self awareness I have experienced and still experience to some degree. ( Of course I’m only unnerved by it when I’m identified as the ego , and there is comfort knowing there have been and still are and will continue to be others) but still….do you not get a bit rattled by being the ONLY ultra alive ? (If so)

    2- can you describe the difference in the level of self awareness between a MG , an UG and yourself? Yes obv each are more self aware than the other – can you please elaborate?

    3) Can you give me some further identifying markers to differentiate between ML Victim & LMR Victim

    Thank you

      1. Unless it’s the Burning Bush , I AM gig, I don’t know about it.
        (The while I AM deal I found out about AFTER Awakening – which is the only reason I give any creedence to the Bible bc they obv got THAT right so there’s bound to be lots more , if you can decipher it from the bullshit)

        Do tell

          1. W: In short, please remember, the Holy Bible is not only a history book, but also a book of Prophecy. In addition it is written in parables and like a puzzle so that many that are not supposed to understand it, will indeed not understand it, as it says in the Bible itself. In short: It is not written for everyone to understand. With that said, I was intrigued by your question asking HG how he felt to be The Narcississt. The Ultra, and Alexander the Greek came to my mind, and I remembered it did not alarm Alexander at all, and in fact he found the news about his increasing greatness to be very favorable. So the point that I was making is that when someone does find themselves in the odd position of being at the top, in one way or the other, they usually like it. I never have been there, so I too thought your question for HG very interesting, and when it did not alarm HG, I believe him and his answer sounds truthful to me, and I remembered Alexander the Greek. To put together Alexander the Greek and his knowing of his preeminence, one would have to read certain sections of the Holy Bible including The Apocrypha and with icing for the cake coming also from other historians, most noticeably, Josephus. I took a look around just now on the internet, and here is a small excerpt regarding Alexander, but like I said, it may take a combination of readings to fully put this puzzle together enough for you, and I have seen it put together years ago, but I am quite rusty on it these days. But, in like manner that you posed that question to HG, I had thought about the same question to myself years ago, as I wondered how Alexander The Greek felt and also how some other historical figures felt seeing themselves prophesied, about as a top personna, in the Holy Bible. Here, for your convenience, is a small part, but an important part of the puzzle where the famous historian Josephus wrote about Alexander’s reaction to Jaddua in Antiquities of the Jews (Book 11, Chap. 8, Sec. 5; William Whiston translation, 1981):

            “And when the book of Daniel was showed him wherein Daniel declared that one of the Greeks should destroy the empire of the Persians, he supposed that himself was the person intended. And as he was then glad, he dismissed the multitude for the present; but the next day he called them to him, and bid them ask what favors they pleased of him; whereupon the high priest desired that they might enjoy the laws of their forefathers, and might pay no tribute on the seventh year. He granted all they desired. And when they entreated him that he would permit the Jews in Babylon and Media to enjoy their own laws also, he willingly promised to do hereafter what they desired.
            Alexander not only believed the prophecies in Daniel were about himself, but because of that belief, he gave great favor to the Jews.“ Here is a link of the article that I found this info. on, but remember, the writer of this article is compressing the entire puzzle, but he discusses Alexander in more detail, like I mentioned to you above, and the title of the Article is:Alexander the Greek was mentioned in the Bible – And he knew it! :https://www.thetrumpet.com/

          2. Hi PSE and WAF, I hope you both don’t mind me chiming in. We can’t compare ourselves to narcissists because we are empaths and we are kind of their polar opposites. Empaths are usually very humble while narcissists are naturally grandiose and competition. They want to be at the top and they have an innate belief that they deserve that spot. Alexander the Great was a narcissist. His matrinarc raised him making him believe that he was a demigod. So when the prophecy was revealed to him, it didn’t surprise him at all. It wasn’t news to him. Although it was positive fuel because his ‘greatness’ was affirmed and so he reacted positively to the people who believed in the religion that affirmed his ‘destiny’. Compare that to Moses who was an empath. We can probably even say a ‘Super Empath’ because he killed the Egyptian who was abusive to one of brethren. What was Moses’ reaction when God revealed to him that he will be the one to bring his people out of Egypt? “Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh and bring the Israelites out of Egypt?”. Moses was humbled. Moses was not sure if he can do it. Moses didn’t have grandiosity.

          3. (cont.) There is more proof, but this article is a fair enough starter article. I glanced over it, but I do not think he included the Apocrypha, many do not like to share, but more is definitely in the Apocrypha which is part of what is called a: Complete Bible, like I have. In the Complete Bible, you will also see where Hanukkah come as from as well.

          4. W. and MommyPino: Regarding being glad and even being obedient when one is told of their own preeminence and increasing greatness. It depends on the circumstances how one will feel and initially react. Whether or not one is called empathic or narcissistic, it still depends. For example, Moses was dealing with a very exasperated and downtrodden and exhausted group of enslaved people that were filled with bitterness. It is like telling a baseball coach or football or basketball coach that such troubled Players will be on his team. The coach would be alarmed, like Moses was alarmed. As well as feeling humble to be given such a great job because there was belief that he could term the team around. Plus, Moses was told to go against a great ruler, the Pharaoh. Like telling a riff raff football team that they have to up against Tom Brady and the Patriots. It is much easier to desire to coach a team with Michael Jordans or Lebron James or Tom Bradys. However, Alexander already had a few successes underneath his belt* and I am probably under representing his accomplishments and understating them right now, *if I were to ask HG. So he was not alarmed, and he probably did not see any other challenger against him and the prophecy. Just as HG does not see someone that is currently achieving the impact on the field more than he has and is continuing to have. Even as a Narcissist, he should be allowed to have his own observations. But others that would be labeled empathic have been quite obedient and had incredible belief in themselves and were glad when hearing the prophecies regarding themselves such as Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, and even some women, such as Judith who went on to kill Holofernes. And songs were sung over all this. And young David had no qualms and no doubts, going up against the Giant Goliath. And there was much gladness from even very humble people over these victories. There is a story of one that was Narcissistic we would say, I can not recall if it were Darias, a ruler, who was surprised at what he was supposed to do, according to the prophecy, unlike the belief that Alexander had, and he, Darias if I am not mistaken, found it worrisome. But, at end, I think we all are on the same page, Mommy Pino. Just that, importantly, I feel there may be a latent suggestion somewhere that an empath would not feel glad over an impending pre-eminence, just because they are humble. I say, no. It depends. Because, empaths love good news, as well. And have rejoiced and have sung songs over good news. And will continue to do so.

          5. Hi PSE, thank you for your response. I agree with you about the underlying unique circumstances behind their reactions to the revelation of their specialness or greatness. Moses was also a fugitive who ran away from Egypt because of a crime that he committed which he was personally ashamed of and guilty of and that would have affected his self esteem at the time of revelation to him. And you are right about Alexander the Great although I wasn’t saying that narcissists are not entitled to their own observations. I wasn’t minimizing Alexander the Great’s accomplishments. It is a given that he will never be forgotten in history. I was pointing out the exaggeration of his ego wherein he actually grew up believing that he was a demigod. That is not the same as having an objective observation of facts. That is grandiosity in an unrealistic level of NPD. David was not a narcissist but he was highly narcissistic. David’s enthusiasm to beat Goliath was coming from his great belief in God and desire to save his people and is not the same as where Alexander the Great’s enthusiasm to be at the top coming from. I just want to clarify that my comments are not made in a hateful manner against narcissists. I was just applying what I have learned from HG and my experiences being raised by a narcissist and living with my narcissist half sister. It was also not meant to be an attack on HG. I am not minimizing his accomplishments. It’s obvious to me personally that HG has already cemented his legacy in the psychology field. It’s just a matter of time for that to be commonly acknowledged. I was just talking about the grandiosity element of narcissism wherein prominence would be easily accepted and even relished by them. I also apologize for whatever grammatical errors I may have because I don’t have time to proofread. Thank you PSE for the discussion.

          6. W. and Mommy Pino: Moses was not ashamed of what he did, but ashamed to see his brethren treated with brutality in their captivity, but as a foreigner in a regal household, but adopted and of another race, and although he was in high honor in that regal household, he knew he would be put to death for killing an Egyptian according to Egyptian law. So he ran. But, he took with him the knowledge of the Egyptians and their language and their culture to know them and stand before them as a deliverer for his people, to fulfill the prophecy. The very reason he was spared from the slavery of his brethren and was so beautiful a baby that he was adopted into the Pharaoh’s household and raised in luxury, for a later purpose. And David was very humble, humble as defined as doing whatever God wanted him to do, and therefore he was a man after God’s own heart, as it is written. And David had complete disrespect for Goliath, because Goliath was a very disrespectful and arrogant and boastful person, although a seasoned warrior with a very large body, a giant. That is not narcissism from David, but understandable disdain. Although Alexander was of a Narcissistic household and a Narcississt in all probability because of the aspirations of his mother and the fame of his father, he was no different than his people that all were raised on the mythologies. And, he was of privilege. And those of privilege often think very highly of themselves and often are very confident. However, Alexander was well educated and very aware of the other peoples and cultures of the world and the various classes, and so he would not be easily flattered by just anyone with any characteristics,etc, and by just anything positive told to him regarding his posterity, and so he was very aware of the dignity and quality of the Priests who showed him of his destiny in the Holy Bible, for him to read himself and think upon, beyond the mythology of his class and personally affluent background and world view and religious mythology, etc. all certainly heightened by his ambitious mother. MommyPino, I am not saying Alexander was not Narcissistic, nor a Narcissistic. I am sure he was, in fact. But, what I am saying is that he was not ignorant. And Alexander could look upon the prophecies and the persons presenting them to him, and reflect upon these persons and the written prophecies and make a decision about them, as many persons of high levels are often presented with various high-level and even esoteric council to reflect and decide upon, to accept or discard, beyond what his mother had said to him. And you did pick up on a latent criticism in my tone, that may not fit only this discussion, in particular, but also concerning thoughts that have been on my mind of late. I am not arguing with you that Alexander was not vain and puffed up. I am sure he was. However, my argument that you sense, has to do with another matter, and not with you and what you are saying. That matter on my mind is that whether a person is considered Grandiose or not, or a Narcissistic or not, there is still a such a thing as healthy self esteem and healthy pride born of hard work of substance, and that is not narcissism, but such healthy demeanor is often thrown into the same basket of goods as narcissism: And, I am bothered by this. And, although modesty is often a virtue, and what many call humility, sometimes it is bad when modesty is too overly self-effacing and at all times. Even modesty must be moderated, and thereby some times modesty should be highlighted and some other times modesty must be placed in the background, on a situational and case by case basis. Because putting away modesty is not always narcissism and, in fact, putting away modesty is often necessary for good and honorable successes in many matters. And thus, young David, with his slingshot, popped the giant Goliath in the Head and killed him. Amen.

          7. Hi PSE, I think that we have different interpretations of what Moses was going through. But I agree with you that he was deeply ashamed of finding out that he didn’t really belong to the Egyptian royal family and that the slaves were actually his brethren. My interpretation is that he wasn’t ashamed of seeing his brethren receive brutality but his sense of empathy towards them increased dramatically after finding out that his real parents could be one of those slaves that were being treated horribly. But I believe that he had a significant amount of guilt and shame inside him because he was feeling very inadequate. Honestly, if God talks to me through a burning bush, I don’t care how great that Pharaoh was, I wouldn’t have any doubt that I will succeed because if God can make a bush be on fire without burning then he can most definitely do anything. Even making a rif raf team win against Brady. But Moses was so deep into his feeling of inadequacy that the suspension of science didn’t even impress him enough to believe that he will be able to do it with God’s help. And Moses didn’t only bring with him his knowledge of the Egyptians’ language and culture, he also brought with him the ten plagues. 😳.

            About David, you are right, I have considered healthy self confidence as a narcissistic trait. I am honestly confused about this. I have read an article outside of this blog that talks about ‘healthy narcissism’ and it was referring to high self confidence. That is why I am under the impression that self confidence is a narcissistic trait but definitely not a bad one, in fact, it is advisable to have a strong and solid self confidence. But even if we put aside David’s self confidence, he was still highly narcissistic. He designed for an innocent man to get killed in the battlefield because he wanted to have his wife. I think that it is very narcissistic that’s why God sent a prophet to give him a reality check. David is actually one of my most favorite characters in the Bible and Psalm 23 which he wrote has always been my favorite prayer to read from the Bible.
            About Alexander the Great, he was indeed extremely intelligent and educated. He was Aristotle’s student so he was trained to be very logical and thoughtful. But he was really brutal as well. David was defending his people from Goliath and the Philistines. Alexander the Great was brutally conquering different countries to increase his empire and naming a bunch of them after him. Alexander the Great was also alcoholic and he had his half brother murdered the ensure that he will be the only candidate for the throne. I do notice with David however that he became increasingly narcissistic when he became very powerful but his belief in God has always put a limit or a cap to his narcissism.

            Also PSE, I agree with you regarding humility. This verse from the apocrypha has always been one of my favorite Bible verses since childhood and has helped me to understand and have a healthy self esteem despite of my matrinarc’s attempts to make me subservient.

            Sirach 4:21-23 Good News Translation (GNT)

            21 Humility deserves honor and respect, but a low opinion of yourself leads to sin. 22 Do not let others have their way at your expense; do not bring on your own ruin by giving up your rights. 23 Never hesitate to speak out when the occasion[a] calls for it. Don’t hide your wisdom.

            PSE, what do you think of King Solomon? He became really narcissistic as well when he became very powerful although he started out being very humble and asking God for wisdom.

          8. “ if God talks to me through a burning bush, I don’t care how great that Pharaoh was, I wouldn’t have any doubt that I will succeed because if God can make a bush be on fire without burning then he can most definitely do anything”

            Maybe. You might also doubt your sanity just a little .
            It’s true that the I AM is undoubtable- it’s the truest truth and you know it beyond any other knowing.
            Buuuuuuuut the rational, logical mind doesn’t just disappear. There is still free will. If a bush is on fire and yet not on fire and you’re in communication-knowing with the I AM , or “God” (for lack of a better word) and you realize such a magnificent , seemingly impossible and probably not terrifically pleasant purpose unfolding before you – I could see how one would wonder – “uhh…Why Me, dude?”

          9. W. and MommyPino: Moses was not ashamed of his true heritage. If that is what you are suggesting. He felt compassion for his brethren of his true heritage and even said he would rather suffer the affliction with his brethren then live the rich life of an Egyptian. The shame he felt was when he saw his blood brethren wrestle with each other and he felt they should not do so, and said so to them. When Moses overheard it mentioned that he had killed the Egyptian on their behalf, he then ran, knowing the info would spread and come out and he would be killed. However this breach with his upbringing was really to remove Moses from one station in life to another. Moses was not raised to know his own God. And the Egyptians had so many gods and idols that they worshipped including beasts, all not living, that it is reasonable to understand that Moses would be mystified and awed regarding what was happening to him, the miracle he saw, His own God being alive and speaking to him, and the prophecy told to him, regrading himself and his heavily enslaved people. A people so enslaved and under so powerful a slaveholder, that it took, finally, the death of the Egyptian firstborn to remove his people from their bondage, and even then the Egyptians gave chase and the army and Pharoah drowned to death in their pursuit. Even knowing their heritage, some have fainted in the presence of real angels and had to be revived, it is written. And angels have hidden their angelic nature as well, to deal with mankind, it is written. How much more awesome it would be to interact with God himself, that it is written that if anyone were to see his face, they would die. God was close with Moses. So it is understandable that Moses had a learning curve to undergo regarding learning about the power of his own God, a living God, and thus God spoke very gently with Moses, it is written. David made a mistake in coveting Bathsheba, but God considered David one of his most humblest of servants, in his obedience, and also remember, many of God’s beloved characters in the Bible made mistakes and had certain experiences for the sakes of those that would read about them, it is written. They are very important characters that lived in a script. that God had put together. The Scriptures. But many are highly precious persons to God. And David was one such person beloved by God expressly. So, if God considers David so highly, so shall I, and to learn to not covet as well, which is the example that David presented, for my own sake and learning. So for the record, I see nowhere that Moses was ashamed of his brethren, nor that David was narcissistic. Both men are very precious to God and he has respect unto them. Thus, so do I. I think that we are not in an argument over Alexander. However, as far as self esteem and self respect equalling narcissism, I do find many may think that way. Especially people that were not raised to have self esteem and self respect. And, being raised that way is hurting many good people and is a major cause of many good people being easy to be preyed upon. God, for an example, gave Solomon all that people thought would make them happy, such as women, rulership, riches, all for the learning of those that would read about it. In the end, King Solomon said obeying God was what mattered. That is the example to be learned from King Solomon. He also was very beloved by God. I know that many people fear men. Especially powerful men. And, for example, they refrain from criticizing such persons or criticising them and their offspring and loved ones. So, likewise, I stay away from criticising any persons that are beloved by God, the creator of powerful men, and the most powerful man of all. King Solomon and King David and Moses are all greatly beloved by God. Thus, there will be absolutely no criticism whatsoever from me, against any of them.

          10. Hi PSE, Thank you for your response. I love your interpretation of what Moses felt and will concede to your interpretation because it made me reflect and I think that your interpretation is closer to how the Bible depicted Moses. However, I personally believe that as a human being, it was still a blow to his identity to find out that he wasn’t really a prince but actually one of the slaves. And I don’t mean that in a way where I think that the Hebrew slaves were below the Egyptians, not at all. The Hebrew slaves were chosen by God and they are in every way elevated in God’s eyes and as someone who believes in God, it matters more to me. When I say ‘narcissism’ in terms of David’s and Solomon’s character traits, I do not mean it as a criticism upon them or in any way disrespect. I am just fascinated with their combination of narcissistic and empathic traits and how all of these traits that they have have been used to fulfill God’s purpose. If David wasn’t highly narcissistic, would he have been able to accomplish a lot of what he did which included going into battles to conquer enemies that threaten them? It is a personal fascination for me to understand people and the conflicts inside them: their inner battles and the choices that they make. I apologize if my delving into that caused you discomfort and I got carried away with my fascination and curiosity. I love all of Moses, King David and King Solomon and they have been very much part of my childhood with their stories that have always stimulated my thoughts and reflect on God’s love for me who is absolutely far from perfect. Thank you so much for your patience with me and I really enjoyed your insights and thoughts and I learned so much from you.💕

          11. “How much more awesome it would be to interact with God himself, that it is written that if anyone were to see his face, they would die”

            you don’t physically die, your ego dies. (Maybe not all at once)

            Just sayin

          12. WAF, I recommend you read Teresa of Avila. She wrote about that, she was a mystic. Her poetry is very contradictory because she tried to express how difficult it is to transmit her experience in human words. I find her poetry extraordinarily clever and profound, despite the fact I’m not a religious person. Therefore, I won’t intervene anymore in this thread, just wanted to mention her work if you feel curious.

          13. I sent you the specific poem I thought about after reading your comment, but it’s being moderated, I hope you can read it soon.

          14. Just did a brief search.
            When one awakens to their true nature, the mind uses imagery & words that are available in the experience so far, and in the culture .

            It IS difficult to explain bc it transcends words.

            There’s some Taoist saying “the true Tao can’t be spoken” or something.

            The thing is- and this long thread shows it- ppl think of those who met the I Am as superheroes, puffed up dramatic characters , and it puts the idea of awakening out of reach. It’s this misconception that may be THE biggest barrier.

            I didn’t have any religious upbringing nor any particular belief or idea about God
            I just wanted to know wtf is going on here more than anything else and I was willing to die for it.
            Couple weeks later BAM!!
            Lol

            I was just responding to the idea that One would drop everything and never doubt if a burning bush “spoke”.

            Modernize it- if a levitating IPad told you to go save the kids in the ICE camps – would you? Even if you were sure it was “God”’s will?
            Would you leave your husband and kids and go into almost certain death or imprisonment?

            Meeting God doesn’t erase your humanity, your logic, or even your ego (all at once).

            My origin question to HG was – does it rattle him at all, if he’s The Narc.

            How do you know you’re the only Ultra, HG?

          15. Ok I’m not doubting you. If one knows what they are, one knows.
            I’m asking is this based on evidence (you’ve searched) or has some higher power informed you , or is this an inner Knowing

          16. “The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal name. The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth. The named is the mother of ten thousand things.” I have the Tao Te Ching (Dao De Jing depending on the version) right here with me 😊

          17. Yeah that sounds about right

            It’s an experiencial Knowing.

            Like you can talk about how an apple tastes all you want but if you haven’t tasted an apple you don’t really know what an apple taste like.

            Words get in the way more than anything. Just bite the apple.

          18. I take it as a semiotic distinction between the content or essence and the container, more or less what you just said. Your apple made me think of Magritte and Magritte made me think of his painting “Ceci n’est pas une pipe” which takes us back to the Tao. I’m a little philosophical because I’m trying to finish some work and excuse is good to procrastinate… haha.

          19. Hi WAF, I understand your point. That is the case with Moses and even Mary when Ángel Gabriel appeared to her and gave her the prophecy about being pregnant and having a son Jesus who will be great and will be called Son of the Most High. Her first reaction was she was afraid when she saw the angel which is why the angel told her to not be afraid before telling her the prophecy. After hearing the prophecy her logic made her ask how can she be pregnant when she is a virgin? But in the end she said that she has accepted and said that she is the handmaid of the Lord and may it be done according to His word. Her logic didn’t leave her even though she saw a miracle just like what you said and she was afraid at first. But then there was Noah who just dropped everything and made the ark when God told him to. Abraham was really going to kill his only son to sacrifice him when God asked him to. The Bible shows different people with different characteristics and they are all very human. We can relate to a lot of their flaws and strengths in many ways and we can relate to some more than the others. And my personal belief is that this was all by design and they were all chosen for that because their stories were meant to teach us. But that is my personal belief. Even the apostles that Jesus picked have diverse personalities and they had a really interesting dynamic and were mainly united because of their faith in Jesus. And the four fishermen did dropped their nets and left their boats as soon as Jesus asked them to follow him.

  16. Hi HG,

    My questions are;

    Is it progressive to vent all of my dirty laundry on a forum for so many strangers to see? It does feel good to get it all out.

    But is it healthy? I don’t have anyone that I can vent to or talk to, in my real life, due to my pride.

    Is this helpful to my situation or it is keeping me down and preventing me moving forward?

    Also, is it normal for people, after a dance with the devil, to behave in this fashion? Venting, venting and more venting?

    Oh and a break through! I had already changed my phone number and purchased a new phone, but today I shut down my Facebook!! Feels good! Email is next! And then a new laptop (better safe than sorry!).

    So there is some progress that I did not have before! But am I just causing myself undue embarrassment to tear it all out and pen it into the universe?

    Please HG, your thoughts?

    1. 1. Yes, so long as you do not wallow.
      2. Yes, but even better to do so through consultation as then your questions will be answered full and detail.
      3. No, but your ET may con you into thinking that, so you do not use this place.
      4. Yes it is.

  17. Hg a scenario question:
    A DEMB friend of mine engaged in a very brief affair with a narc in our community recently. Luckily she is getting pretty savvy on narcs and listens to me re a lot of your work and fairly soon recognized his manipulations

    She wasnt interested in leaving her (likely narc) hubby and was clear abt this from the start.
    Long story short the question is abt a manipulation he used.

    Normally narcs show you a really good time in bed to get you hooked right at the beginning and then pull sex away as a manipulation
    This guy did the reverse.

    When she recognized what he was and started pulling out of the affair, he showed her a good time in bed. The two times directly previous to him satisfying her, he had trouble getting it up,
    They only fooled around 6-7 times in total, her orgasm time being the last- she has recognized what he is, wasn’t into anything serious anyhow and backed out bc he started pushing for more —-although won’t block – (I’m working on her!)

    Now for her benefit but also MINE: we wanna know—
    1)Why did he have trouble getting it up after the first 3-4 times?
    (He’s not a cerebral – motorbike, chopping wood pics on FB) He’s charming, conversational – defin a mid ranger , likely MMR

    2) By ignoring her orgasm for the first few times and then giving it when she started to pull away from the affair – this was simply a manipulation to keep her, yes? Any other info on that?

    Thanks HG you’re the best

    1. I should add – the first few times they had sex – he got his but he did not offer to give her hers. And she didn’t ask. It was only when she started pulling away that all of a sudden — he gave her hers.

    2. What you describe is unclear.

      1. You state “the two times directly previous to him satisfying her, he had trouble getting it up,” but then you state “1)Why did he have trouble getting it up after the first 3-4 times?” – which is it?

      2. If he is a narcissist, yes it is a manipulation. See the book Sex or consult.

      1. They had sex 3-4 times no problems
        The next 2 times he had trouble maintaining it
        The final time he did still have trouble maintaining -but he took care of her business (finally)

        She didn’t keep actual count – this is closest guess.

  18. Mr. Tudor, I need your advice. I have a dear friend who just started dating someone a little less than a month ago. After 2 days he was calling her “my love”. After a week he told her he thinks hes falling in love with her and after 3 weeks he told her he loves her. He is extremely needy. He texts and calls her all day. He wants to spend every free minute with her. Tonight, she would like me to meet him. Are there any questions I can ask him to flush out whether or not he’s a narcissist? Any advice you can give me would be appreciated. Thank you in advance!

    1. Hello BLT, I need more information form you and need to convey more information to you and therefore you should arrange a consultation.

      1. HG,
        Beg your pardon, to ask a question, of the Upper Echelon of your kind, Sir. If I’ve successfully evaded his in-person benign hoovers & it’s been about 3 months of solid NC — and nothing BAD has happened to me (no negative fallout) because of it…am I relatively right to relax a bit – that I may be in the clear on any malign hoover? (I’ve not wounded him. I’ve just been “unavailable”/hard to locate).

        I anxiously await your pronouncement. Well, I actually am headed out the door now, but I still await you. (See? I sometimes need your insight).😎

          1. Thank you for saying “You’re welcome,” HG. Now it’s *your* turn to say “You’re welcome” again…I’m waiting.⏳

            I know – I’m leaving already…🍊 you glad?

  19. Hg ppl simply don’t see able to comprehend that 1/6 ppl are a narc. You’ve directed us to two of your videos on this (Lovefrauds and just at this moment I can’t recall the other one so pls do remind me) I try to send ppl here .

    Is there any particular moment , or a pattern , you’ve noticed in empaths that come here- anything that makes it CLICK, that seems to be what makes the AH HA moment happen ?

    1. Yes and I can vouch for the every 6th person. Statistics like that.

      When we learn from HG we realize a very quick way of establishing a narc, sometimes it only takes a five or ten minutes of face to face talk with a new person, their eyes have a lot of energy. They look very focused.

      And that’s about every 8th person I talk to, parents in my kid’s class, some classmates, coworkers, etc.
      Very energetic eyes.
      Or very tired-arrogant, Kevin Spacey eyes.

      They have the energy to always gaze that way because their brain, eyes and body is not occupied with the very energy demanding Empathy.

  20. Hi HG, do you have a major pet peeve about people that would make you instantly not like them or does it always depend on whether they are painted black or white? For me it would be when they are rude or disrespectful to people who are lower in ranking or status than them, it will make me avoid the person as soon as I witness that behavior.

    Also HG, is the martyr cadre similar to having a martyr complex? I have read an article about the martyr and victim complex and it is absolutely not me, except for being slightly paranoid about people but I don’t believe that I have a martyr or victim complex as described in the internet article.

      1. Thank you HG! That is an interesting difference. For follow up question, if someone is painted black and that person gives you sincere positive fuel, will the potency of the positive fuel be not as high or will there even be any potency at all? For us non-NPD, it can vary. If someone that I painted black because of something horrible about him, for example a serial killer tells me that he thinks I’m a wonderful person, there will be zero potency for me. But if someone that I had a conflict with give me positive fuel and it was sincere, there will be potency because there will be forgiveness. Is it the same with narcissists?

        And thank you for the answer to my second question. I’m glad that it’s not the same. I hope that you would write an article about the martyr cadre so that I don’t get too paranoid thinking and wondering what it is. 😅. I can’t find it in Chain. 🤷‍♀️

        1. Hold up! there’s a martyr cadre???
          (HG no more secret cadres!)
          This makes so much sense to my life!
          Is the martyr the kind of person that complains about being left with the dishes but when you go to wash the dishes… they don’t let you?

      2. Hi HG, I apologize if my follow up question sounded impertinent. I was just curious and the thoughts just went running in my head. Thanks for answering our questions.

  21. Hello HG,

    As I’ve been reading your blog for several years now, something keeps coming to my attention.

    Even from the beginning narcs are so keen about the minute details of our lives. The questions are often intimate, introspective, and even invasive. There seems to be no boundaries. Nothing is off limits, no question presented to us is too personal, and we are required to answer. But if we are the ones that do the asking, the answers are vague or ambiguous, often just one word and sometimes only silence.

    Is this the narcissistic way of trying to seem intriguing and mysterious? (Truthfully it’s just frustrating and exhausting)

    1. Thank you for reading.

      It is not done intentionally to cultivate an air of intrigue, although that is what often happens, this approach is born out of our sense of entitlement, our lack of boundary recognition, our lack of accountability, haughtiness, lack of emotional empathy.

      1. Thank you so much for your answer. That makes sense.

        It just always seems so one-sided, and difficult to feel emotionally intimate. One would hope that both parties trust each other enough to share confidences.

        Is there also a fear of betrayal? A fear of being too vulnerable?

  22. HG , you’ve said your voice is unaltered in your YouTube videos & interviews
    However I’m wondering if your accent & general vernacular, is how you speak in your daily life
    Thanks

      1. I think your voice is the same, it’s the register which differs. Your voice is dark both in a colloquial or a more formal setting, it doesn’t lose its color and texture with different registers.

  23. Greetings HG. I see that there are things that you would not do to gain control in any given situation. You have mentioned on your blog that you would not sleep with a man, you don’t sexually abuse children and you haven’t physically attacked an intimate partner, correct?

    One of the MRNs I was engaged with recently that took a loan from me, has the underlying belief that people ought to pay what they owe/agree to. This (I think) relates to his father who committed suicide due to money matters – and him not being able to stop that in time by giving him money (he had put aside) to bail him out.

    Do you have any thoughts in regards to being able to trust a N to a degree, if you know their limitations/values, etc? I realize it doesn’t fit with your first rule of freedom and I am not suggesting we do this.

      1. HG, you said earlier, “Define trust to a degree”? I think I did above already, perhaps I wasn’t clear. Are you saying that Ns and their perceived limitations (be it façade management or personal preferences or maybe things they refuse to do given they were abused in the same way) can change, be there a need for control? So the 3 acts above that you have said you don’t engage in, might change given the circumstance/environment?

        1. Control is everything. We have a range of manipulations linked to our schools and that governs our responses.

    1. SARAHR,
      A Midranger would misinterpret events, and distort reality to appear as maintaining those “limits and values”. That’s why they suck. My son’s father doesn’t think his s**t stinks, yet still manages to try to jip me out of money, and is capable of lying and stealing.
      IF this Midranger that you speak of pays you back, he won’t see it as a repayment of a loan, be prepared for him to act like, or even tell people that he gifted you the money and that he is so nice!

      1. Thank you Anm. I think I see your point. When investing money there needs to be a win/win and I recall feeling that it was more a “win” for us, like he was doing us a favour and yet the banks were charging him more for the loan than what we did.

        When he did repay the loan, I noted that he did mention that I should have left it in his care as when I took it back and reinvested it elsewhere, it didn’t do well (I gave it to another N, ironically) so he had a chuckle over that.

  24. Dear HG,

    When reading your blogs where you’re exploring the nature of different kind of narcissists, I noticed that you elaborate a lot about the lesser narcissists, the most easy type to recognize and to deal with and to stay away from. I tried to find more about the mid range narcissists, but understandable, they are more difficult to investigate, since they differentiate more in their mindset, behavior etc. But still very interesting what you have written about it.

    As for the greater, upper narcissist, you often claim only few exist and of course you’re one of them ‘our kind’ as you put it. But you don’t elaborate much about the nature of this kind of narcissist. Is this on purpose (you don’t want to be seen trough) of is is too difficult to find a way to describe the extraordinary gifts of the greater narcissist?
    Or maybe, you’re just one of of a kind and don’t want to share the status of number one greater narcissist with anyone else?
    Or, is the difference between mid range and upper, just that an upper is aware of his inner life and knows what is driving him, so he can use his manipulation tools more effective and on purpose. This last remark undermines the idea that narcissist react on ‘instinct’ to protect their inner life, and when you manipulate aware and on purpose you’re no longer a narcissist…. ?

    I would love to know more about the ways the greater are manipulating, getting what they want, how they get away with it and how they perceive the world around them. I know, a lot you have mentioned, but not as extensive as you did with the lower or mid range. Of course I would like to know how to recognize the upper kind. If I ever could, as just a normal human being.

    1. There is plenty of material demonstrating the way a Greater Narcissist operates and how a Greater thinks.
      It is not upper, it is Greater. Upper is a sub school, such as Upper Lesser.

  25. 1. Why did you decide to use your mind only?
    2. Do you know that the mind = emotions and they are limited? Is it just some fuel: fear, shame, anger, pride, regret, apathy? Do you know that there is a list of emotions and feelings with their numerical values.
    3. Do you know that the first thing that appears in the womb of her child is the heart? The heartbeat in the study shows that pregnancy has started. This means that the brain and back develop later.
    4. Do you know that the mind (brain) is just a record as in the tape of our history in the form of emotions and traumas and when you use only the mind, you really play back the past?
    5. Do you know what you need to use to live now and not in the past?
    6. Do you know that freedom is a choice?
    7. Do you know that the lack of choice is slavery?
    8. Do you know that using only the mind (record of the past) you are in bondage to your past?
    9. Do you know that by making no other choice now than from your mind, you are designing your past for your future?
    10. Do you know that because of this you do not live your life, but only play tape? So you’re really not here right now?
    11. Who do you think programmed your mind and brain?

    1. 1. I do not use just my mind. My fingers typed this response, directed by my mind, my eyes payed a part as well, along with nerve endings, my lungs, my blood, my heart and so on.
      2. My kind have limited emotions. I have always stated this.
      3. Actually it is the anus. So everybody starts off as an arsehole. Some remain that way.
      4. The mind is more than just a recording device.
      5. For the majority of our kind it is all about the now.
      6. Indeed, I grant it every day.
      7. Or shopping in a poor supermarket.
      8. Incorrect.
      9. Really. Oh I will go and use someone else’s mind then. Thanks for the tip.
      10. Tapes went out years ago. I stream now.
      11. Deep Blue.

      1. Hg this reminded me of a question I have for you. The majority of ppl , around age 10-12, develop an inner “Narrator” that speaks constantly. (Some call this “thinking”) Many believe this inner voice IS them, but I digress

        Q: do you have an inner Narrator?
        Ty

          1. Whose voices/influences are they? ie mother/father/God/self

            Do you relive conversations with others in your head, situations from the past?

          2. Which voices/influences are you referring to, BO (I do not see the previous comment in my moderation pane).

            I remember things, naturally.

          3. A previous poster had asked you about the inner voice/narrator that people in general have. You had responded that you have three tracks going. I was wondering who those voices/narrators are for you?

          4. All of my thoughts are me talking to someone else (conversation). It’s always me thinking ahead and there’s someone else I’m ‘talking’ to and my perception of what they’re going to say back and it banters back and forth. Does anyone else think this way? It’s always how my thoughts have been. I’ve asked others before and never has anyone understood what I meant. Of course if I’m writing something, or praying it’s different, there’s the intended audience, but when my mind is just going it at it’s always been a dialogue of sorts. Anyone else know what I’m talking about?

          5. You’re not alone mpathetick.

            The thinking/pondering-voice inside my head is many times the voice of a person I talked to recently, maybe a coworker with whom I’m currently involved with a project, a friend, etc. It can be some Loudmouth narcissistic man.

            It doesn t have to be a narc, most often it’s the voice of a Super empath friend (I know 3 or 4). Someone interesting.
            “I mean are you Sure you really like this meeting Cat B? Idk. You deserve better” Thoughts like that usually have the voice of a super e friend.

          6. Cat b

            I think the voice of someone interesting you hear is your own. Your logical thinking clamouring to be heard. You should listen to it. It is protecting you and is the very best of all of your friends.

          7. Oh, I know 5, NarcAngel

            Well, yes, it is true, my inner self making those thoughts which I ascribed to “hearing wise friend”. It’s a strong experience, being myself.

          8. mpathetick I know exactly what you’re describing. I do it, too. I talk to ppl from the past (maybe I dreamed about them and it triggered unresolved conflict), present-day situations, and I analyze the conversations in my head with such detail… It’s neurotic and annoying, but if I write it all down it can be cathartic (even if I throw it away).

            HG, if you have three tracks and they are all you: are you being facetious? If not, how are the three tracks separated (what differentiates them)?

          9. Yes that’s imagination, creating future conversations in order to prepare yourself ie trying to control the future.

            I used to do it a lot many years ago.

            Right now I have a voice that speaks as “ I “ ,(“ I gotta do this”) , one that speaks as “You” (“You gotta do this”), a position as some kind of witness to both, and general residency as the backdrop that it all plays out on/in.

            HG do your three narrators all speak at once or take turns? Do you identify as any of the speakers?

          10. What is your interpretation of what’s “hearing” the 3 voices ? Do they speak continuously or do you get pauses, and where do you reside in the pauses if so?

          11. Ok I’ve done an internet search for “triple track” can’t find anything. I found something on audio “double tracking” used with music etc. I’ve looked for a definition to help me understand this before, but still find nothing
            Can you further explain or expand ?

          12. This is a weirdly interesting thread.

            I can’t really fathom having a single coherent conversational voice which makes up my thoughts all the time.

            I can consciously force my thoughts into being one voice (my own) when I’m being particularly decisive, but that usually leads to me vocalising what I’m thinking, and thus get funny looks for talking to myself.

            When I’m not focusing my thoughts into one single subject matter and I’m just pottering around getting on with my day, my thoughts are more like a white noise, no specific voice, just a background hum which comprises of a mixture of a thousand different thoughts all at once, about anything and everything, as well as of course the task at hand.

            What I find incredibly strange is when people have aphantasia. Not having a mind’s eye is the strangest concept of all. My mind’s eye is very clear.

          13. The real kicker comes when you realize there IS no voluntary visualization or “minds eye.”

    2. Mija,
      3. Yes, the heart is the first ORGAN that develops for a fetus, but actually, the brain and spinal cord gets a head start before the heart.
      The heart beat does indicate a “viable pregnancy”, but usually doesn’t happen until around 6-7 weeks of the actual pregnancy.
      I could be wrong. I drank and did drugs a lot while studying biology.

      1. Speaking of which, in regards to fetal brain development, if a woman wants to boost the brain development for her children, and help them to become smarter, women need to eat walnuts and listen to Mozart while pregnant. Walnuts are abundant with the omega fatty acids that nourishes the brain; listening to mozart activates all parts of the brain, but stimulates the left hemisphere in the same way that mathematics do.
        It works, my children are both smart. Though their narc fathers take all of the credit.

  26. Here goes nothing… I have read many of your articles, and books… I see what people write and I have noticed I have very black and white thinking. I get that people are always looking for a justification as to why others are “good or bad” However I dont think that way. I tend to think people are what they are and that is it. No justification needed. However I have also noticed I have an addiction to narcs. I absolutely love the rush and I get a huge kick out of “finally” getting them to break or bend. Once I feel I have control I get bored and the relationship ends. I cant relate to the empaths… I “care” about people but I am able to separate my heart from my mind.
    I dont think I am a narc either because I read your article … and if you have to ask yourself if you are a narc then you are not the narc. So what am I?

    1. Mystery eyes,
      Being emotionally unavailable does not necessarily make you a narcissist. People who have black and white thinking usually don’t realize they are experiencing black and white thinking. It’s sounds more like you are detached, or using the dopamine rush of dating a narcissist as a drug to feel good about yourself.
      Do you actually idealize, devalue, and hoover the people you date, or is it just a whatever thing to keep your boredom in check, and distract you from what’s really going on with your life?

  27. HG,
    A few questions, Sir:

    1A) In regard to thinking of others as objects, for those who have been on the site for awhile, do you think of us in terms of what Empath you think/know we are, when our name pops up? 1B) Does it affect how you interact with us?
    2) Do you ever type replies out — but delete them, out of an abundance of caution – or for other reasons (If other reasons, what are they)?
    3) How do you feel (how does it affect you) when Empaths on the site break NC?
    4) If you had to be either an Empath or a “Normal,” which would you choose?
    5) BESIDES fuel, what’s the one thing you like/are fond of (or can respect) about Empaths?
    6) How many questions could I ask before you got tired of me asking questions?

    1. 1a. Some.
      1b. No.
      2. Sometimes, clarity of expression.
      3. I am unsurprised.
      4. Neither.
      5. Their residual benefits.
      6. How many do you think it would be?

      1. HG,
        In answer to your question, I think you will answer *my* questions to “infinity and beyond”…as long as I keep them narcissism-related or about you…now back to YOU again (first set of questions are for fun, about your preferences):
        1) Oceans or lakes?
        2) Steak or Lobster?
        3) Weeping Willows or Palm Trees?
        4) Motorcycles or Hummers?
        5) Champagne or wine?
        6) Hardwood floors or plush carpet?
        7) Daybreak or twilight?
        8) Strawberries or peaches?
        9) Vanilla or chocolate?
        10) What is the worst advice your mother gave you?
        11) What is the best advice your father gave you?

        🤔

          1. HG,
            Oh, I see how this is gonna go…so I shall change tactics, as I ponder my next set of questions. I’m traveling, so I have a lot of time to ponder.

            However, you neglected to answer my last two questions…would you like me to repeat them? Or are you disregarding them for narcissistic reasons?

          2. HG,
            Will you pretty please answer my questions as though you are ALONE…and it’s just about your personal taste, with no consideration of fuel or narc benefit?

            #WhatItLooksLikeRightBeforeANarcDeniesYourRequest

          3. 1.) Does it make you proud if an Empath seizes the power thanks to your work or is it no different to when they break no contact despite your best efforts with them?
            2.) If you help an Empath escape their Narcissist, do you perceive that as asserting control over said narcissist?

          1. Not that this is relevant, but since I’m psychotic — and NOT off-topic — did you know a very small percentage of the population don’t taste chocolate the way the majority do? It’s a genetic thing. One of my guy friends HATES chocolate, same as his Mom does…it tastes absolutely wretched to him. He’s tried to describe to me what he tastes, and I’ve tried to describe what I taste — totally different/pretty wild.

      2. *Raises hand*

        I also have a question. It might be presumptuous for me to think you have the answers but I will give it a stab for the sake of trying, even if it makes me look like a d%^#k.

        Why do you think your grandiose and superiority characteristics confront me while others here are pleased by them? I am thinking it has something to do with my element of martyrdom/victim cadre (which you would feel equally unattracted to) and that of my MRN father who didn’t allow that kind of talk. Furthermore it probably interferes with my sense of equality.

          1. Envy is wanting something someone else has.
            Jealousy is fearing the loss of something you have.

            “John was envious of his neighbours new copy of Manipulated by HG Tudor.”
            “John was jealous his girlfriend was talking to HG Tudor at the opening to Tudor Tower for over an hour.”

          2. Hg, thanks for pointing out I have a narcissistic trait of envy. 😉 I also have the N trait of revenge, hate (not so bad as I get older) and I could possibly be labelled with the lessors anger management issue.

            The above is why I think that the abuse is what triggers the NPD and it’s not necessarily the N that is always dishing it out but the *programmed* parent is doing this in a narcissistic fashion.

        1. Narc Noob,
          Speaking only for myself, I’m not “pleased” by his grandiosity talk …but it doesn’t bother me. He’s a narcissist, so I expect it. Sometimes it even amuses me, depending. I know he is not superior to anyone, so that doesn’t bother me.

          The only time I (personally) get annoyed by the Resident Narcissist, is when I feel like he’s trying to clamp down on me, which may be real — or may be more my own sense of self, due to my own combo of traits — and also due to the prior FR I had with a narc…in other words, I maybe extra sensitive to it. For instance, HG just told me I was “off topic,” when I said I was “psychic,” which was a joke that pertained directly to his previous comment.

          That annoyed me. 😂

          I’ll be over it in 17 minutes though.

          1. I didn’t say you were off topic. You interpreted that. I made a joke, but you missed it.

          2. Oh, sorry — then I take back my annoyance, HG… that unsettled feeling you get when you’re annoyed by a narcissist when the narcissist wasn’t being offensive…maybe check yourself, Missy Empath.😂

            What is (ot) then???🤔

          3. I will let you work it out, it will give you something to do rather than ask me questions!

          4. Caroline is fine
            I read that as HG inserting ot into the word psychic to make a joke about psychotic.

          5. Okay, HG…you have your little chuckle at my expense…but the next batch to you will be 50 in-depth questions about your (gulp!) mother. 😲

            No, I can’t do it. I’ll let it go…and yes, your “ot” was clever/funny. 😎

          6. NA
            I was going to say Who’s the cool cat who’s going to figure this out?, lol. How purrfect that it was you!!

        2. Hi Narc Noob? What do you know about the martyr cadre? You called it martyr/victim cadre, does that mean we have victim mentality? I have a tiny bit of martyr cadre in my ED and I can’t find info about it. Where did you get the info on it?

    2. 4) I asked HG that question too Caroline. I seem to recall that HG’s answer was that he’d prefer to be a victim N than any kind of empath. I have to say his response shocked me somewhat! But then HG is full of surprises as we know!

      1. Hi, Alexis~
        I’m insulted by his answer — insulted, I tell you! 😂 Nah, he just has no idea how glorious it is to be an Empath.🙌

          1. I’m so glad to see you’re analyzing our uniqueness & appreciating our amazing strengths, through our comments to your inbox and on the site. Thank you for the recognition of all about us that is glorious, HG.
            😂

        1. DW Caroline he didn’t really!

          I suspect that if he had to choose, given that his favourite type is a Magnet SE he would opt for this. It allows him to still have some strong N traits and maintain that magnetic appeal yet experience our delicious emphatic traits too, which we know he is curious about.

          1. Yep, agree Alexis…I figured that would be his preferred empath to be. But I really wanted him to choose between normal or that type of empath…because that could end up being a bit revealing/interesting.

            So, of course, he didn’t specify.
            😛

          2. HG,
            The question implies that it’s a “if you HAD to be one/HAD to choose” question…it’s simply pretend play. No pretend play today?

            BTW, I hate to be understanding…but I do get why you don’t want to start asking a bunch of personal preference questions, because where would it end…

            Bunny slippers or moccasins?
            Calluses or bunions?
            Red, black or pink bras? <on women, not you…just anticipating.
            😂

          3. I share in your disappointment too! Let’s make him a LLVN – that will teach him not to choose!

          4. Well, all the empaths clubbed together to transfer ownership.

            Now that we own you, we made that choice on your behalf.

          5. CIF
            “Bunny slippers or moccasins?
            Calluses or bunions?
            Red, black or pink bras? <on women, not you…just anticipating."

            Boxers or briefs?

            It's been asked and answered on the blog… :)

        1. Lorelei, (pretty name btw)

          I agree they are pathetic. I’m glad I’m not alone in that opinion.

          Although I did not know what a narcissist was until after I left him, his victim-hood was one of the reasons I left him. That and lack of sex. I didn’t really leave him due to the abuse, silent treatments or many discards. That might be a sad reflection on me. Although that treatment always engendered anger in me rather than sadness (as many things do – I rarely cry), I just ignored it all and continued with my life knowing he would be back. Until I had enough, left him and blocked him from all contact.

          I recognized his victim mentality immediately. After one of his pity parties I said to him; “I get it J, you are a victim, you are a victim of life, you are the perpetual victim. Then you should just lie down and die!”

          Another time I said “I get it. Being you sucks. Go drown yourself then”. That might seem very harsh of me, but I started to realize that I was always his shoulder to lean on but he would never be mine. I said that with anger and contempt so I guess I was giving him fuel. I was hoping to get through to him that he wasn’t a victim in certain circumstances of life, but just a person facing challenges.

          My anger toward him never seemed to be an issue with him. I now understand why. Because it was fuel.

          Thank you for the opportunity to vent that. I appreciate being able to share parts of my story.

    3. hahaha Caroline this was shocking to me, because i came here to ask same questions (1a and 1b)
      it’s wonderful

      1. Ceyceyc,
        And I felt the urge to reply to your post right before you came to this thread…I AM psychotic, er, I mean psychic, HG! 😁

        This is a bit of a crazy and wild thread, ceyceyc.😂

        1. should i be scared? hahah…impressive !

          my ex once told me he felt like that I was “a walking question mark” after him.( i asked too much and he hated that.) i laughed so much to this idea(he hated this also haha) and i decided to find a question mark costume. i will… and i’m gonna chase him with my costume, saying “booooo” . your questions remind me this – why your comments always remind me something?! ahaha-

          maybe i should find one for you too. we can run together with our questions hehe

          1. Ceyceyc,
            A question mark costume – I truly love it!

            With HG, I need to take a different approach, if I ask him more questions. I pretty much know what he won’t answer – and also what he’ll answer in the same type of way. So my little mind is churning for the most perfect questions…😂 The problem, for me, is there is always going to be my Empath way of wanting to relate, which influences what I ask…then there is how a narcissist chooses to interact/present info…which we know is all wrong. 😂

            I take that back. I’m pushing it…even for me.🤐 The truth is that HG’s looking to educate and reinforce concepts…not answer if he wears bunny slippers. <In defense of myself, I'm not curious about that!

        2. Caroline,
          “I pretty much know what he won’t answer – and also what he’ll answer in the same type of way.”

          hmm i think i understand what you mean. when i send a question or read someone else’s question i can guess if he will answer or not. on the other hand, unlike yours, i can’t stop asking questions which will never be answered because i’m still at ” my ex will never hoover me, my ex ignores me…” stage. also, 1 $= 5,72 Lira in here. with this calculation ; my salary is 600 $. paypal is no available. in this situation i can’t ask detailed information . so i ask very desperate questions
          I think these questions are boring, even for me. if he gets tired of me, i can’t blame him haha. and as a teacher, i admire him.i am going crazy with 30 students sometimes, he’s trying to answer many questions from many people from many countries.

          i am not sure if it is a idiom, but i couldn’t imagine HG with bunny slippers hahah

          1. Ceyceyc,
            You know what I say? I say “You be you”…however that is! Every single human being is special and cannot be replaced. That is why, for me, it is a shame that some narcissists seem to have developed because they did not feel they could be themselves — harm would come — so they put up a defense shield that eroded their very core. That is my own simplified way of expressing it — not necessarily how HG would. But I find it sad that narcissists felt no safe harbor to develop their inner core.

            So I say that you ask as many questions as you want…the ones you want…the way you want.💚 It matters not what the reaction is to that…it matters that you are true to yourself. Yes? 😉

        3. Caroline
          i don’t know if you are psychotic-psychic :) but i can see that you are amazing <3
          after 153 days, i feel much better. I come here mostly when I am confused, for to read the "bitter truths".
          but your comments make me feel strong, make me smile. It's exciting to share something with people who i don't meet face to face, miles away from me. thank you so much

          and: yess !!!

  28. Also have been studying the levels of narcissists…I do believe this narc is mid-range though have not drawn a finer bead on him (lower, middle or greater/upper)
    I believe I am a super-empath with the requisite narcissistic streak, leaning into that & my years of training as a scientist & lawyer (dispassionate logical thinking) to get this narc gone. The logical approach is something I find a lot more comfortable than an emotional one (though at one point I felt sorry for the narc, I clearly see the futility of that).

  29. sorry if it was asked before

    how do you know all of these ? i mean, you can understand your kind and their patterns but you can also understand empahts and their behaviours. everything in your words are beyond the theoretical knowledge and your own life.
    for example ; i read an article about the mid-range. your examples of conversations amaze me. -as if you read the messages between me and my ex- and you are not a mid-range

    how did you observe the other schools? when did you create hierarchies of fuel/ schools etc? when did you discover them?

    of course i admire your intelligence but i think there is more than that.

  30. HG, what does it mean when a mid range narcissist says “I don’t love you and you’re not the right person for me, but I’ll still be here for you in spite of that”?

    1. I am keeping control of you by provoking you whilst maintaining my facade and causing you to try to cause me to love you and realise that you are the right person for me. I am creating confusion, unfairness and shifting sands which means you are easier to control and I gain fuel also.

      1. And maybe “I’m dabbling w a potential fresh source but let’s keave the door open for a Hoover” ?

  31. Have you written anything on the aging narcissist and/or the decline of his/her physical health (i.e. developing chronic and/or potentially life threatening illnesses like cancer, diabetes, COPD, etc)?

    Am currently dealing with a narc who is a senior citizen (68) & I know it sounds terrible to have to doubt his veracity but given how many lies I have uncovered, were you in my shoes, you would be foolish not to suspect everything he says, so he alleges he has Stage 3 colon cancer.

    It has been a strictly online acquaintance / connection (though if you ask him it was a ‘relationship’ but obviously I have been toppled from my pedestal) so of course I have not bothered with confirming the veracity of his latest ‘crisis’. He thankfully is not a relative, just a guy online who tried to work his narc machinations upon me & no I never felt anything for him but pity.

    I had implemented No Contact with my very 1st discard (in a phone call, he spoke of himself having ‘honor’ or being ‘honorable’ and I swear I could not help myself I burst out laughing at that absurdity & so he hung up on me marking my very first discard, yay me!). My glorious 1st respite lasted a bit over 3 months then surprise!

    Wednesday, I got a ~15 minute ‘divine accidental’ phone call from him & he couldn’t wait to tell me about his upcoming radiation treatment. He has been freaking out about this maybe being a ‘hernia’, then ‘colon cancer’ since March, behaving in a manner that I would call ‘flaky’ (as basically my entire maternal lineage were down-winders. aka people exposed to Post WWII above-ground nuclear testing and 100% of them contracted at least 1 form of cancer, I know well how most cancer patients behave, plus I am a recovering research scientist, so no I am not the best candidate to try & hoodwink around cancer & its treatment).

    I have resumed No Contact but I figure he of course will call again because cancer treatment is no picnic.

    Anyway was wondering if you (or others) have insight and/or advice for dealing with the older chronically physically narcs out there (beyond No Contact)?

    1. Hello SVOI, please see the two articles The Aging Naricissist Parts One and Two and if you require specific input with regard to your situation, please organise a consultation.

      1. Saw these 2 posts after I posted my comment but from further digging around in your blog I think the narc I am dealing with is either a mid-range or greater elite, so the victim/lesser/somatic descriptions might not fit him all that well. From my knowledge of him, he is less crude, obvious & violent and more educated than the lesser, he is not strictly somatic (though he is a preening peacock, into fashion not strictly crude working out or body-building), and he is on record as *despising* victims and weakness generally, I believe it would horrify him to ever identify as being one down, taken advantage of etc.
        It might be fruitful for you to consider continue writing in that series as so many people globally generally are aging and/or developing chronic health issues which and I am sure aging and poor physical health cannot help but affect the dynamics between, narcs, normals & empaths.

          1. If a narc despises weakens, yet goes on about his potential cancer, would that be a mid range move?

    2. Dear So Very Over It,
      Fortunately, your friend is someone you met on line ….. easy to get rid of
      I would NEVER tolerate someone hanging up on me …..that would be THE END
      He’s not your problem …. let his family deal with it
      He will just drain you mentally
      There IS …..beyond no contact
      It’s called GET OUT STAY OUT
      BLOCK HIM
      Sorry my lovely
      Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      1. He is now better blocked (was napping & forgot to turn the ringer off on my landline phone) All my calls go to answering machine & have just contacted my phone company to block his numbers.
        His only other option to reach me now is 3rd parties…working on that too.

        1. Dear So Very Over It,
          Congratulations and well done
          You will now have piece of mind
          You won’t regret your decision
          Good luck with it all
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. Bubbles I also have some ‘insurance’ against the narc (a lot of records of our communications with dates, times etc) & have mailed items that belong to him to his still legally married wife (of course I did not include my contact information).
            So no obvious ties left, no loose ends as far as I know.

          2. Dear So Very Over It,
            Haha… its always good to have back up evidence with narcs … just in case….. leaves them speechless when you throw it back in their face …. then they go off and sulk n won’t talk to you …..hilarious !
            …We are involved with aging narcs … the lastest, our 88 year old victim narc just accused Mr Bubbles n myself of theft, we weren’t even there when this theft occurred!
            I believe he has short term memory loss but admits to nothing …. he still has his wits about him and defiantly independent
            He found his wallet….. where he left it !
            No apology, as to be expected … typical !
            Narcs ….. they’re truly a breed on their own…. haha
            I highly recommend Mr Tudor’s books …. they’re a must !
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          3. Dear Bubbles,
            I hope you don’t mind but I would love to use your comment to practice my lessons.

            Correct; narcissists do not like evidence/facts because it challenges their sense of superiority and entitlement. This makes them feel a lack of control (attacked), which results in a manipulative response (a sulk; pity play) to deflect from their behaviour. Fuel is acquired, possibly from multiple streams for contrast, and control and superiority is maintained.

            Accused of theft when you weren’t even there! Ha ha ha…that’s some fantastic gas lighting. You and Mr. Bubbles must have some excellent magical powers. His accusation most likely got him proximate and thought fuel while smearing you for good measure.

            Irrespective of memory, he will not accept fault and his memory “issues” will conveniently be used for blame shifting and pity plays to distract from HIS behaviour.

            Who’s the one who is sleight of hand in this scenario. (this could be construed as projection)

            Right again; he won’t apologize because that would cede control and superiority by shutting down the fuel lines and that ain’t happening. All is well in Narc Land.

            That was great, thank you Bubbles!
            Luv K xoxox

          4. Dearest K,
            I enjoy your lessons, I’m learning from you as well
            Get this ……
            He rang us today to see if we coming over for drinks tomorrow
            I asked if he had put his wallet in a safe place
            He replied “how did you know about my wallet? ”
            I said “you rang n told me, then accused us of taking it”
            – deathly silence for 5 seconds
            He then replied “well you know I’m a dumb arsed half brain nitwit”
            😂
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          5. Dearest Bubbles,
            My pleasure and thank you for allowing me to practice after-the-fact.

            Ha ha ha…LMAO! Is he really a dumb arsed half brain nitwit. Ha ha ha…he’s gas lighting again. Well, we all know what he is so the gas light effect isn’t as bad.

            To summarize:
            1. You received a benign hoover in the 4th sphere (telephone).
            2. Your question: I asked if he had put his wallet in a safe place, may have been perceived as challenge fuel.
            3. He feels a lack of control, which results in a manipulative response: “how did you know about my wallet? (compartmentalization, reset button and gas lighting).
            4. More Challenge fuel:“you rang n told me, then accused us of taking it” (holding him accountable).
            5. He is being attacked and deploys a Silent treatment. (first line of defence: denial)
            6. Second Line of Defence: he distracts and deflects by blame shifting it onto you AND his brain with this statement: “well you know I’m a dumb arsed half brain nitwit”

            Ha ha ha…that was a phenomenal hoover! Thank you.

            Luv K xoxox

          6. Dearest K,
            You’re dissection skills are phenomenal 😱
            Thank you my lovely K 😍
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

  32. HG,
    Apologies, I already asked them but I will combine them here in one place.
    1. Why do I feel the need to think of you as caring for us and empathizing? it isn’t necessary for you to be good at what you do.
    2. Have you considered creating an affiliated program. or authorized dealer. Something like that of your work?
    3. also a forum would be good. which you could thread the comments better.
    4. How do I escape in my situation? You know I tried.
    5. Are you in love or ever been in love?
    6. If not do you feel the desire to ever know what it feels like?
    7. Is it possible he feels some love for me? My narc?
    8. I never figured out who the shield maiden is to you?

    1. 1. You are an empath. See answer provided on another comment.
      2. My readers already assist in this regard.
      3. That would present too great a risk to the integrity of this place and its readers owing to the subject matter and who it attracts.
      4. https://narcsite.com/private-audio-consultation/
      5. No.
      6. No, it is unnecessary and from where I stand it causes far too many problems.
      7. No, that is Emotional Thinking.
      8. She is my girlfriend and she is amazing.

      1. that made me smile thank you Mr. Tudor. i am glad she is amazing. It may not be love in an empaths way of thinking but, it is something special indeed. I wish you all the best of luck

  33. I have a question. I believe I might be working with a narcissist. He never respond to texts or voice mails. Sometimes he won’t even pick up the phone. Emails are often ignored as well. When I see him face to face he is always friendly, responsive and even helpful. Can you tell me why?

    1. 1. You first should establish whether he is a narcissist – organise a Narc Detector Consultation.
      2. If he is a narcissist, his failure to respond to texts, emails, voicemails (which I assume are being sent in a work context and not a romantic one?) is about his sense of entitlement, lack of empathy and lack of accountability which are manifestations of his need for control. He feels no obligation to answer or reply, he does not care how that makes you feel and he is unconcerned about the impact on you. He may well be occupied with other individuals in his fuel matrix and therefore HE has no need to engage with you.
      3. He is friendly to your face because then HE feels a need to engage with you for the purposes of control, gaining fuel, fulfilling The Prime Aims. His narcissism will blind him to this contradictory behaviour through the Twin Lines of the Narcissist’s Defence.

        1. A383. Indeed. It is quite so astonishing. HG Tudor`s workplace knowledge has prevented me from feeling hostility over the wrong things and from the wrong people at work, so many times. I was becoming upset at work, when it really was not necessary, and not upset at work when I should have been, and I could have taken defensive and preventative actions, but I was unaware of and puzzled about how to balance it all out. Swinging blindly at pinatas, I called it. Just absolutely astonishing, these workplace breakdowns! Bravo.

      1. It felt like a mind game. It was all so confusing to me. This helps!
        Thank you for clarifying.

      2. Also, HG, might a narc want pity when he does not reply because he is so overwhelmed with emails? That’s what happened to me, though I am not sure he is a narc. It remains to be seen whether things change now that I spoke to him about it (he asked me to call him rather than email).

          1. I sent two emails today and he answered both. I had to call him today also and he picked up the phone. Usually he let’s it go to voicemail. By the way, the responses were pleasant. I give up!

    2. I have one of those too, BLT. I do not know if he is a narcissist but I am trying to stay on my toes.

        1. They are often very particular about their facade so I try to bring these things up on weekly work meetings.
          “Um. I sent you an email on Monday?”

          Then they are usually superquick to answer, in front of everybody.

          Hope this resolves soon for you, BLT

          1. Yes, that does help. Someone else suggested I copy his boss. Which I may have to start doing.

      1. SMH and BLT
        They can blow hot and cold, up/down, push/pull, nice/mean, seduction/devaluation. It keeps you confused, in situ and pumping out fuel.

        1. K and BLT, I just spent two solid weeks with work narc. 16 hours a day. He might have some mild ego issues and an unusual leadership style but he’s a great person and absolutely not a narc, so I’ll have to find another name for him. I do think we are kind of fascinated with each other – maybe smitten – but we had to keep a lid on it because he is married and it is a work situation (so smitten happens).

          HG, why is the site white on black? Or is that just my monitor? It’s very hard for me to read.

          1. SMH
            That’s good news but, just in case, keep an eye on him. You could be painted white and in seduction.

          2. K and PSE,

            Thanks for the input, warnings and support. Nothing will happen before next year because…I am leaving again! Ha. That is what I do. I did it to MRN and I am doing it again! Work narc and I do not see each other every day anyway because we are not in the same division.

            Work narc did go out of his way for me and gave me special attention during the time that we were together. I imagine the others gossiped a bit. But he now has a good picture of me – literally – I don’t know what he did with it but he took one and I hope it’s good! – and figuratively. He is not going to mistake kindness for weakness the way MRN did.

            Unlike MRN’s wife, work narc’s does work, and in a classic caring profession. But normal or narc, I do suspect that he is either having an affair or had one because of a work dinner we all had months ago. I found out that the woman hanging all over him – who pivoted towards me at a different table, looked me right in the eye and gave me a sort of warning smile – was not his wife. I will not let him triangulate me in any way, shape or form, and will remain romantically out of reach. But I will be his friend and support him as long as he does the same for me, which he has done.

            PSE, I did experience a lot of what you say via MRN and IPPS and I also know your situation. I am sorry that you learned the hard way. I did too once. I normally steer clear of men I work with. The only time I did not, it turned into a disaster after five years together, with a lot of collateral damage, and it wasn’t even an affair. Basically, that guy was afraid I was more successful than he was, that I was restless and not going to stick around, and he was right. But what he did during and after our break up was utterly unforgivable and he is probably the only one of my exes that I really, really hate.

          3. SMH. ALERT: Just because a male is not technically a Narcissist, does not mean he does not have any game as a male. Remember, SMH, there is a spectrum, and moving slowly is your best friend. And I learned the hard way, even though I am a little miss careful type, because the workplace proximity sunk me, so to speak. So, although I am not enticed by lovebombing, because of my cultural upbringing, I did not know to BE CAREFUL about the workplace. There is a reason that most men of means did not want their women working outside the home with other men, for so many decades, but it became an economic necessity for a 2 worker/earner household, or whatever it is called, because of economic changes. Men love the workplace intrigue and the women all about. Not just Narcissist males. All males, practically, and, many men wisely did not want their women to be enticed by other men in the work environment. And this is not news. In your case this guy has all the advantages of having you at the workplace, with none of the effort, SMH. He does not have to look for you or take you anywhere or make plans with you, in order to see you, or call you at home and at noon to say Hi, and to court you, because you are already there, fresh, dressed and pressed. It is sooooooo easy for him. Toooooooo easy. I know for the future to be careful of workplace, introductions, familial and any other easy, high proximity, low lovebombing scenario. Even with normal men. Be careful! Even with `normal` men. Also, an affair often brings strength to a marriage. The wife receives a sort of a break from the emotional and sexual demands of her husband, and has a bit more time for her own self care, and to go the spa, and to catch up on her reading, and read shiny magazines with her tea, while the various mistresses become drained, worn out and depressed over time, waiting for a promotion that may or may not happen. The mistresses fall in love and then desire to topple the wife, even if the mistress does not start out feeling that way. Trouble. I doubt it`s this guy`s first rodeo. And these normal men usually do not leave their wives, no matter how they denigrate her to the mistress, even if what they say is true or not about the wife, as much as Narcissist men do. Normal men basically want to make as decent a living as they can, and keep their head low, and go through life as easily as possible. Mistresses for them come and go, and the wife stays on the throne, whether or not she knows of her husband’s extra activities. And the wife receives his pension also when he retires, while the mistress is left with memories, usually. I just had to disengage from everyone I know, because of the various tentacles all over the place that I had not counted with this work entanglement. It is horrible It is so sad. So many people I have to disengage from because I made such a stupid mistake, SMH. People that I wanted to start a business with. I really harmed myself. I know you have the facts about your workplace and I do not. I want you to be careful, even of normal guys: They Got Game To.

          4. SMH: I was looking at your sentences and these stand out: (1) I just spent two solid weeks with work narc. 16 hours a day. (2) Work narc did go out of his way for me and gave me special attention during the time that we were together. SMH: ATTENTION: Pick Up Artist guys discuss this very thing as sentence number one and sentence number two: Spend as much time with a woman as often as possible to create quick intimacy. One example they give: is to take a woman on a specific date, like to the movies, and then to dinner, and then stop off at the drugstore for anything at all, and next perhaps take her to a place to look around or something, and all those different places will add up to 4 dates in the woman’s mind, although the man does all this in one date. 4 dates of intimacy in the woman’s mind from just one date! I feel embarrassed to say this, but HG has heard it all, so here goes: in this pick up scenario, if a woman says she will have sex after 3 dates with a man, she will feel like she has had 4 dates according to this strategy of taking her to 4 different places on the same day, in her mind. And, she will be tempted to have sex with guy on this same date, that feels like 4 dates to her, emotionally. So do not trust your romantic emotional thinking. 2 SOLID WEEKS of 16 HOURS DAYS is maybe a year of knowing this guy emotion wise. Keep an eye on yourself, regarding this guy, when you return. Your emotional thinking could be feeling a year’s worth of intimacy with this guy, already. 16hs X 14 days =224 hours. For example, say if you dated this guy: If you saw this guy one hour a week for a year, it would only be for 52 hours. If you saw this guy 4 times a week for an hour for a year, it would only be 208 hrs! See the problem? Yes? You have spent 224 hours already with this guy. My point is that you saw a lot of this guy physically and emotionally. I repeat: You saw a lot of this guy, already, in a very condensed and immersive scenario, ok? Forewarned is forearmed.

          5. PSE, I am giggling, though I hear your warning and that is a very interesting analysis. I never thought of it that way. You are right of course but it was a work trip and not deliberate on his part. However, guess what? Right after I told a friend tonight that he never emails when his underling can do it, he emailed me. Tonight. It could have waited until the work day tomorrow.

            In any case, I am not letting him control me. He is married so he cannot have me. I am also leaving and we will not see each other for months unless a travel thing comes up. I sure will not let him do what MRN did, which was to keep me e-tethered for months while I was away so that I was always thinking about him. But MRN and I were already romantically involved and married work guy (MWG?) and I are not.

            I am grateful that I can write about this here and get input, so thank you for yours very much!!

          6. SMH: Oh my. Have you forgotten what makes the workplace so dangerous? Proximity. Easy Proximity, remember? I see proximity all over this sentence that you wrote: `it was a work trip and not deliberate on his part.` SMH: So he had the proximity without the effort and deliberation. Good for him. And for this work trip you have bestowed 224 hours of your essence upon this guy. Good for him. And, I know you did not use the word, smitten. I know I did not hear that. Smitten with no committment? And, he has your photo. Good for him. Why did he want your photo? Did you read Sex and the Narcissist, yet? Those photos are used in various ways. And now the unexpected email from this guy? Good for him. Remember, the workplace, according to a Poll that HG Tudor recently conducted, is the most dangerous scenario for ensnarements and entanglements. I did not know that. I wonder how and why I know it is true now, right? Well, perhaps I am hyper vigilant of the workplace now, SMH, because of what happened to me. However, so many women on here also become addicted to these guys long distance by text and stuff. Ever Presence. So be careful even though you are away from him, SMH. Because it all ignites in the mind and then the emotions and then the body, and then the emotional thinking takes the wheel and starts driving and then BOOM! `Here comes the [pain] again. ~~Annie Lenox

          7. PSE, He emailed the next morning too, though he normally makes himself very scarce on email but it has stopped now. Honestly the picture did surprise me. He stopped me, I quickly posed, he snapped. It took all of 2 seconds. I never did ask him what he did with it but I have not seen it amongst the pictures many of us took. I did post yesterday I think to SP that instead of taking him up on more drinks down the line because I owe him a few, I paid him back in cash to kind of say ‘not going to continue this.’ He wasn’t there in his office so I slipped it under his door.

            Anyway, I was just discussing him with a friend. She said ‘he’s a womanizer. Stay away.’ I said, of course, and I will. I can’t stop the work email but if he starts WhatsApping me, then I will worry.

            I did get addicted to MRN by text but that won’t happen again now that I am aware of it.

            All in all, I’d say it was a nice little flirtation and I am glad I can be interested in someone other than MRN. It was good for that.

          8. I fear it will ruin sex for me, and I don’t plan to get into another N relationship anyway, thanks to you!

          9. It will not, it will prove to be watchword to your heart (and loins).

          10. OK well between you and PSE, I guess I have to read it. Maybe today since I happen to have time this afternoon. Be ready for questions…

          11. SMH: I wrote this yesterday regarding the book and I can not believe I was able to find it or this post of yours at this point with so much posting going on: `PrincessSuperEmpath says:
            July 24, 2019 at 22:46
            Dearest HG: There was a knock on my apartment door-I opened and my book arrived: Sex and the Narcissist! The Book Cover and its Artistry and Color and Smoothness is absolutely Beautiful. The cover has that Traditional and Classical symmetry that I appreciate, along with its Esoteric topic and Cool overall presentation. Of course it would. I did like the original cover as well. I could not restrain myself, and I am already reading it, and I admire how brave you are to be so truthful about this topic, even telling us about yourself, as well. Thank you. It is just amazing to look inside the minds of other people in such a manner. I do not find the book as frightening or alarming, as some fear, rather it is more like: if one landed on another world, of course one would desire an information session and an orientation course, so to speak, to understand how people think and feel and operate on this different world, yes? The more one learns about this new world, the better life one can live. The world of the Narcissist. HG, one day, in the fullness of time, will you plan to have a question and answer session on Narcsite, or elsewhere where we can ask some questions about what we are reading in this book, and perhaps some of your other books, also? This book is a dazzling read. What a peek inside. How incredibly illuminating. I took a break from reading it to congratulate you. And, HG, I do not know how you manage it, but the book reads with that same familiar intimacy as your audios sound. BRAVO.` This is my own review of SATN. And it is all true.

          12. SMH: I could just hug you for slipping that money under the door. Hahahaha. What a wonderful way to give him a message. Hahaha. It is like you were paying to him to not have any expectations, and to not make a fuss, in the future. He probably felt sort or cheap and maybe dirty. LOL!!!! This guy’s an essence thief if not a fuel thief. Normal does not mean saint. His wife will stay on that throne all rested, and other women will accidentally fall in love with him, and the cycle continues. He gets what he needs, his wife ages slowly and the other women lose, over time, their looks, their time, their essence and their ability to engage with their own alpha male, when the opportunity avails itself. Not good at all. You were so helpful listening to me moan and weep and wail over the Narcissist and his malicious and sadistic Lieutenants, when I came on Narcsite. Thank you. I want you to win now. It is your turn to win, SMH. Land a whale. There are good men out there.

          13. LOL PSE, cheap and dirty. Well, I guess I was sending the message that *I* am not cheap and dirty. I cost a lot more than a few drinks. He has not acknowledged receipt but I don’t know if he has been in his office yet. I know he will be there today, however (I won’t be). If he doesn’t say anything by next week, I guess I won that round.

            I do hope there are good men out there but can one be an alpha without being a narc? I am not sure. This is the longest I have ever gone in my life – maybe since kindergarten :) – not being in a relationship. I haven’t looked very hard – haven’t been on a date since last year, in fact.

            Anyway, thank you for all of your guidance and support, and I mean that sincerely. I know how time consuming it is to follow up on conversations. I have not even followed a post in weeks because I have not had time to get through all of them.

            Your post on SATN and HG’s insistence that I have more to fear from not reading it than from reading it, means it will be next up on my list. I hope it doesn’t ruin the good memories I have of MRN.

            I totally remember your situation. What happened with it? (Speaking of missing posts.) Did you return to that job? Has your overweight friend fallen to earth yet?

      2. SMH: I can not believe you remember. Anyway, I did not ever go back, to this very day. I guess I went SuperNova. If I saw them again, fire would have come out of my eyes, especially for those 4 malign Lieutenants. There was no longer any substantive reward to incentivise me to interact with those 5 people, any longer. I have excused myself week by week from that location. It is tedious. I had help: Bad weather, Govt. Holidays. And then good Spring weather and people only wanting to think about being outside and away from the job. Setbacks in my illness I also told them, and they gave up on me for that time, because it was a convoluted time. But, the dog days of summer came, and I guess they became bored and started hoovering. I kept message replies short without substantive info. and now no hoovering for over a week now. They wanted me back: The 4 Lieutenants do not carry those pitchforks for no reason. They say the Narcissist is happier when I am around. I wouldn’t know. They say the coterie keeps asking what happened to me. Bronchitis is my anwer. It sounds both alarming and mysterious, yes? He has a very peasant coterie. It does hurt to lose all that interaction. One of HG Tudor`s articles discusses how Narcissists do not like to engage with the ill and the sick. That is how i came up with the idea to use illness since at least 2 of the 5 have NPD. The others have high Narcissistic traits. The Narc missed my fuel. He even hoovered despite all the suppy he has. It surprised me a bit, but the pain out weighed the reward at that point. I decided that a career in the `circus` was not good for my health. Timing is everything, almost. My friend became a little curt with me in her later texts. I guess she was failing a little in her new role as enemy turn coate lieutenant and new NIPSS in my stead. Oh well. Most jobs have a learning curve. I did not provide her with the info. and cooperation for some events, that she thought she could obtain from me on behalf of the Narcissist. Plus, I kept saying I would be back in a couple of weeks and did not do so and she told me I made her look bad. But, at that time I was not really deceiving her early on, I did not realize that I would make excuses and make moves to break away. I believe that my logic duped my emotional thinking this time around. Good!!!!. But her attitude was more towards being the info gatherer for the Narc et al, I saw, as the latest NIPPS, even though in all probability she didn’t realize it, as HG informed me. She has to earn her stripes without using me to do so, however. Oh well. She is not me, but she has other good character traits and residual benefits. She will be fine and he is quite charming. Plus, early on, I pushed him on her, so I did not leave him empty handed. I am sure they have all figured out that I am not coming back to them, by now. They will be just fine, like they were before I ever entered the scene three years ago . Sadly, I am sure I have been spotted in the City and they probably can intuit that in actuality I am sort of ghosting them. I even had to change gyms and alas a peripheral coterie guy of the Narcissist is at my new gym location. Small world. I don’t talk to him even though he tried. Hopefully he can keep his mouth shut. I did not want to wound or make any enemies. I do not need that. Plus, the new gym location is 3 blocks away from my apartment, instead of near the job, so that is a reasonable change also, since they know my address. I am handling it all the best way I can, SMH, and they can not really prove why I removed myself, although they are smart enough to put some of the pieces together by now. Still not one of them has definitive proof about what really happened on my side. I prefer it this way. I took myself piece by piece away like those stage magicians, using all available distractions, and then right before their very eyes, POOF! I am not there, for a while now. I wish my former friend well. But many of us can not have it both ways. I have to let her go. Great pain. But I am much better, as you can probably tell. Even the feeling of dullness I entered into for a few months is FINALLY lifting a bit. Thanks for asking, SMH. And thank you HG not only for your directions and advice, that is working, but also for hearing our same stories over and over and over again.

        1. PSE, Of course I remember! I love your line ‘most jobs have a learning curve.’ lol. I am sorry you had to give up your friend but it sounds like you extricated yourself with the least damage possible for everyone involved. Lucky to be in a position to do that. I am too – it is easy for me to make myself scarce and still do my job. I feel for those stuck in bad work situations that they cannot avoid. Now you just have to find yet another new gym. Come to mine! It is way, way uptown (I am in the city too part of the year).

          I am beginning to wonder again about married work guy’s narc-ness because today I thought of something odd he asked me and I overheard him ask someone else. In both situations, a family member died and his response was to ask if we were close. Not, ‘I’m sorry to hear that,’ or ‘sorry for your loss’ or ‘condolences,’ but were you close? It sounded so off to me both times but maybe it has to do with narcissists not knowing how or not wanting to deal with illness or with other people’s pain. Does it strike you as odd? Also, he has not acknowledged the money even though I know he was in his office today. l wonder if he’s wounded.

          1. SMH: Of course he is hurt/wounded and surprised and insulted (his pride and intelligence is insulted because he did not expect that you would put money in an envelope for him, and make him feel sort of dirty and sort of cheap, and most men like to be in control and at least one step ahead in these scenarios. Men from an early age, as you know, are taught the power and value of money. And when and when not to spend it. And how to spend it on which type of women and for what purpose. I am positive he received the message. hahahaha. I just love it. One point for the good girls! But, men take rejection better also, because they are taught to pursue and compete and also the testerone in their body pushes them to pursue, and that is why the somatic males tend to take steroids and testosterone injections, as well. To compete and muscle out quickly and they say they feel more aggressive in the NOW, on the steroids despite the damage to themselves. In either case, Narcissist or not, the reaction of insult/rejection/surprise will wear away over time, so get ready for his comeback. And it is a workplace dangerous and proximity scenario including tech and emails. He has all the advantages including the wife and whatever women he is dallying with and setting up to dally with. Read the section on Madonna and Whore in Sex and the Narcissist. And you are on his radar, and he has nothing to lose and so much fun to gain by playing with available women. Regarding your question why they ask someone if they were close to the deceased, if he is an empath or normal, and has a touch of the trait of contagion, it is possible that he knows not to invest his emotions unnecessarily, and wipe himself out. I do the same thing, because I have a touch of the contagion and I do not want to feel more emotions than necessary. To do so would be harmful for me. And I personally need to stay griped up, most of the time, to stay in balance. If he is a Narc, I am not sure why he asks, and I would route this question to HG Tudor, in either case, empath or narcissist, why he asks if someone is close to the decease. I would route this question to HG Tudor, to receive the accurate answer. SMH, it feels so weird that you are asking me questions now, when I basically leaned on you months ago. Helping people pays off sometimes, yes? Shifting sands. hahaha. Regarding the gym, this IS the other gym! I switched from the first one because of the the entanglements. This is a small town, after all. Plus this guy never spoke to me before in Narcville. I saw him yesterday also , and now he doesn’t even say hello like he first did twice, when I said hello back and immediately walked away, twice, as well. He got the message. And I stay FAR away from him, so that he can not weasel up and ask me anything at all. In this weight class I took yesterday, he weaseled over to my side, and I did not know because I am new and this female asked him why he switched sides because she liked when he was on her side of the room. WEASEL! She blew his spot up, that nosy weasel, probably senses that something is up with me. It is. I had to change my entire life over. All he can say is that he saw me and no more info. than that at all. Anyway, let’s call this guy at your job: Workplace Gigolo. And remember, Narcissist or Narcissistic, he is looking for a good time. Good for him. Only you can answer the question, SMY< if you have time and your looks and your future to waste on Gigolo guy until he yawns about you at the precise time that you want more? If so, he is definitely your guy and the Gigolo of the workplace. I suggest you should take some quiet time and take some soothing nice bubble baths and contemplate about what type of guy you really really really want. This sort of contemplation takes work now…and time….and then when you have more of an idea of what personality type you prefer, work to be the complement of that type of guy. I wish you were taking part of HG Tudor`s Assessment Event on the TV Series Big Little Lies. It is not too late, and you can binge watch Season One and Season Two. We assess these guys, SMH! One by one. It is interesting and we learn about ourselves as well. Figure out what you really want and align yourself, but it takes work though, and then you will probably accidentally bump into each other when you least expect it. Dealing with these Gigolos does not take much work because they are not serious. And they add unnecessary mileage on women. And these Gigolos will hijack women` future and time and looks and tamper with and infect their essence that really should remain vibrant to attract the guy you can truly have a FUN future with, SMH.

          2. PSE, Thank you for all of those thoughts! Now I feel TERRIBLE about leaving money under the door since I probably completely emasculated him. If he is a narc, he is not a greater, so he wouldn’t take it as challenge fuel. I like Workplace Gigolo (WPG) as his moniker. And yes, he does have someone else – the woman who came to our work function months ago, whom he did not introduce, who threw herself at him the whole night, and who looked me right in the eye.

            WPG would not only be a bad choice because he is married and a player. Our work situation is very delicate and the two of us could make or break what we are doing. It is more important to me to be successful in our current endeavor than to risk getting involved. But I am glad that I can be interested in someone other than MRN. Gives me hope.

            A friend also met someone she is interested in but here is the difference between us: Instead of saying ‘I finally met someone I am interested in,’ which is what I would say, she said ‘I met someone who is interested in me.’ I think it is a sign of her low self esteem that she expressed herself the way she did. I am not looking for someone who is interested in me. I am looking for someone in whom I am interested.

            I have given quite some thought to it and it probably wouldn’t be WPG, even in other circumstances. He’s very funny and irreverent, and really smart, attractive. But he’s weirdly passive (maybe another sign of a midranger). He lived in the same ill fitting clothes the whole time we were away. One night suggested he change into a clean shirt for dinner (he did it). I can see it now: I would end up nagging him all the time!! Disaster!

            A lot of what you are saying – Madonna/Whore, wasting one’s time, etc, does apply to MRN. I won’t let that happen with WPG.

            I did watch the first season of BLL. But it was awhile ago and I have not had a chance to catch up with season 2. I loved it but I don’t remember all of the characters so I wouldn’t be able to contribute much to the discussion at this point but I will read that post once I have caught up.

            Yes, helping people does pay off. It’s like studying for an exam. You actually learn a lot helping someone else to prepare. I am so glad we are both free and clear of our situations. For me, it is just temporary but I will have a nice long breather.

          3. SMH. Putting that money under his door shows him that you have standards and that you understand the game, in case he were in doubt. Most men love low hanging fruit to pluck when they are not serious, or having a semi fuel crisis-(Sex And The Narcissist). Saves energy. So, perhaps Gigolo can cross your name off his little black book for such purposes. You did very well, putting that money in an envelope under the door, SMH. That was a very Professional way to carry yourself! Regarding this sentence that you wrote: [`A friend also met someone she is interested in but here is the difference between us: Instead of saying ‘I finally met someone I am interested in,’ which is what I would say, she said ‘I met someone who is interested in me. I think it is a sign of her low self esteem that she expressed herself the way she did. I am not looking for someone who is interested in me. I am looking for someone in whom I am interested `.] SMH, I think we can also consider that she may have been somewhat of a man chaser. Chasing men is not good and she has reached the point to finally find a man that pursues her first, and she still has the benefit of liking the guy… It works better if the man pursues the most, biologically, or the woman has to be the aggressor during the entire relationship, or until the man actually finds someone that keeps him more interested. She loses both ways. And she is never sure where she stands, if she is the main pursuer. And it goes against the natural order, since she has lower testosterone to keep the relationship going all the time. So, I think she is on the right track. Maybe for the first time. She has learned some lessons, it seems to me. So few men interest me, that I hide when I am so interested, or they become pompous and think they can rush me and they can not rush me. I think she also is on the right track. She has definitely encountered some relationship dynamic that did not benefit her and she is changing her mindset, I would also surmise. I hope the relationship works out for her. She may end up marrying this one. I doubt she would mention him and spend time with him, if she were not interested in him, right?. He may actually ask her for her hand in marriage. You are so right about helping people. In College/University I once was requested by the Professor over my Major to take notes during one of my classes, with pay, for a disabled man. I never met the head of my Major department before, and I never knew why I was asked to do this, and I was only a sophomore and so I was not that advanced in my mayor as well, but I agreed to do so. What choice did I have. That was the only class that I received an A+. I was so focused on taking notes for him so carefully, I also really learned that course material very well. I, of course, received the grade of an A before, but that was my one and only A+. Now that I think about it, I wonder was that A+ rigged for me? Oh my. Hahaha. I was not suspicious in those days. Maybe I did earn it. Hahaha. Wait, I did earn one other A+ during my Senior year. My fourth year. Whew! I remember staring at that first A+ grade when I received it. I was only a sophomore at that time. Second year. It looked so awesome. So you are so right about that. Helping others can benefit oneself, for sure. Is Gigolo somatic? They are weird. They love the body, but in a weird way. If they are not ON, for whatever reason, they do not really eat healthy and do become slovenly and all of that. We usually see them when they are ON. It is weird. As much as they love the body, it is really a toolkit item to obtain supply. It is a different type of body and health love than one is generally accustomed to. The fact that he dressed liked that around you, is a sign that he takes a lot for granted, maybe. This guy is not good for you in so so so many ways, SMH. You can find better. Keep it business ONLY, please. One time I was looking for a personal trainer at my last gym. I paid for a certain guy, and the first session was fine. The next session, he dressed sort of slovenly and he looked tired and all that, and I was afraid that he was smelling bad and since he is not MY man I certainly did not want a whiff of that and so I was uncomfortable for the entire 45 minute session, and sort of holding breath a lot, just in case he stinked. I cancelled the remainder of the entire training package at the front desk that same day. One day he saw me and he asked me what happened and why did I cancel, and I just told him that my schedule changed, but in reality I wanted him to bring his best, or close enough to it, or I would not be paying. I am done with considering personal training fro that experience. Too much proximity. And, before that first training session, I made sure that I was properly bathed and clean and I wore a pretty outfit and all of that, and I was on time and friendly and everything. So I was not paying for what he was bringing. Fair is fair. Regarding Big Little Lies, you can just go to the comments and read what is being said about each man from what we all wrote. Also, since you saw season One, you can try to guess what is said about each guy on your own looking at their photo and then read the comments. It is amazing how we see each man so differently. That was my biggest surprise, so far. You have time and some readers are still watching the series to finish season 1 and 2 and HG currently has not published his own assessments. Only if you can at this time, of course. I consider myself Successfully Single. I am not looking at all, which means I am in the most danger of meeting someone, because, often, that is how life works. So, HG Tudor`s Book: Sitting Target, arrived this week from England. It is my next read. Probably next week.

          4. PSE, I think I did not express myself properly regarding my friend and me. She is very negative about relationships in general or the chance of ever meeting someone whereas I am not. It doesn’t mean that I would chase someone. I wouldn’t. I meet men all the time who are interested in me. It’s just that I am usually not interested in them. I wouldn’t be interested in someone who didn’t signal his own interest. I am not that forward. My friend has not even met the guy yet – only online and spoken on the phone. She is just fantasizing basically but it makes her feel good so okay. She is an interesting case because she was drop dead gorgeous when she was younger – she still is, basically. She was married a long time ago but has only had one long term relationship since then, and that ended years ago. She’s a strange combination of intellectual arrogance and physical insecurity. I am better balanced. She often comments that I attract men even when I am not trying. She says it’s because I am open and she is closed, and she probably has a point there.

            Regarding WPG, if I were not seriously interested I would probably continue the flirtation but because I am seriously interested but cannot have him because he is married (or, as another friend said, ‘he’s married … now’), it is best to just let him know that I am not low hanging fruit, as you say. It’s a bit of a twist but with MRN, for instance, I knew we could never have a serious relationship – we were too different in our values, temperaments, lifestyles. So I was fine as IPSS. I never asked him to leave IPPS – I didn’t want him to. It would have to be different with WPG so that leaves me with nothing. I won’t have an affair with him and he won’t ever be single. So sending that message with the money was the best thing to do and hopefully he understands why.

            About his clothes – there were a lot of us there. It wasn’t just me. He was on local TV during our trip and he still did not dress properly! It has nothing to do with me. Just the way he is. To be honest, I am more comfortable with a man who doesn’t care much about his clothes than with one who is more interested in his clothes than I am in mine. I have been with those types too and for me it is a sign of a narc. I probably would have been fine with that trainer, unless he really stank! I am surprised the gym did not have a dress code or hygiene rules. I gotta say I have seen some real characters at mine. There seem to be a lot of male dancers (gay). One flamboyant guy wears a very tight white leotard with no underwear. It’s pretty funny but everyone averts their eyes and stays far away!!

            I know what you mean about meeting someone when you are not looking. Smart of you to get Sitting Target to prepare (and smart girl for getting that A+ – I am sure you deserved it!)

            I am not in the US right now and so cannot watch Season 2 of BLL (I don’t have it on cable either – I can pay for it but don’t want to). When I am back in the US, my niece will give me her HBO log in and I will binge it. In the meantime, I am afraid the posts on the thread will give things away and I want to be surprised!

          5. SMH: I am done with personal trainers. That one time was enough. I was not even looking for one, but the staff kept pushing and pushing and one day I finally said ok. So I am done with it. And, please, I am not suggesting you need a dandy. I am sure his way of dress is not a problem if you say so. I thought it was a problem because of the tone I felt from your sentences. And yes, that trainer looked like he was smelling bad, so I held my breath a lot to protect myself and just to get through the session. Many people do not have HBO. Just type: How can I watch Big Little Lies for free in ______________. And then fill in the blank with your location. Whichever affiliates that bought the series will come up on your computer whether it is Amazon Prime, or even some affiliates that you never heard of, or some affiliate that will give you a free week trial or something. It is so great to speak to you again. I can tell that I am much better, and you sound good, and hopefully I don’t have to lose sleep over Gigolo, and worrying about you. I think because I had a workplace dynamic, I will sleep with one eye open over Gigolo, just in case you do not. I call him Gigolo because it has negative connotations and HG said it is not good when we romanticise the Narcissist in question in the dynamic.

          6. lol PSE. Please do not lose sleep over me. I do not have to go to my office for months now, which means the chances of seeing WPG are pretty slim, though we’ll be in touch.

            Honestly, I don’t think I can tell who the bad guys are anymore. My judgment used to be pretty good. I’ve never even been cheated on, as far as I know. But that all went out the window with my twisted relationship with MRN. For the first time, I am wishing I had never gotten involved with him. I used to say I did not regret it but now I do because I see the long term damage it has done to my perspective and my judgment. In and of itself, it was only occasionally horrible but I see my foundation has cracked.

            WPG’s ill-fitting clothes are not really a problem because we are not involved but I would probably nag him about it if we were :). Anyway, I am getting him confused with MRN in my head because they are so much alike – they are even in related fields. But I really do not think WPG is a narc. He’s just a player.

            I looked for a way to watch BLL and I can, actually. But not tonight. Too tired!

          7. PSE, I haven’t had time to start watching it. Probably won’t happen for another week or so. I love the emoji but cannot figure out how to insert one on here myself!

  34. Hi HG.

    I was introduced to your devastating work a couple of weeks ago and have spent countless hours poring over it since I started wondering if a person I’m in love with and have been supporting and fighting for with tooth and nail for over a year is indeed being manipulated by a narcissist, or if he is actually a covert mid-ranger who simply got entangled with one of his own. I have already decided to consult privately with you about this in the very near future, but before then I’d like to ask three somewhat general questions:

    1. What or where is the line that divides the proper pathological narcissists from those people who have mostly narcissistic traits but still possess a bit emotional empathy, as minuscule as it might be? I guess I wonder about the critical point of no return on the narcissist scale, so to speak.

    2. Along that same line, have you ever encountered an example of someone whose narcissism you weren’t 100% sure about despite having what you would normally consider “enough” information about them? Or perhaps, could you tell us about the hardest case you’ve cracked, and what specifically made identification more difficult? What tipped the scale?

    3. Finally: is it possible for a (mid-range) narcissist to be ensnared and controlled by another narcissist (and more specifically, a lesser or another MR ) in a similar way that an empath can be?

    1. Welcome on board.

      1. Listen to Narcissist or Narcissistic on YouTube and read The Empathy Cake (published today).
      2. No.
      3. Yes.

  35. How to use what we learn here:

    1. Once we learn to identify narcs, should we use the information here to thwart them or avoid them? (if we’ve been targeted, the answer may vary)

    2. Sometimes it is hard to see the warning signs until you have become a target (ie, the workplace: you haven’t been “sought out” by the narc. But, once in the workplace, you may become targeted as a threat to the narc. When playing “Switzerland” to avoid drama stops working, is it best to quit until the narc has played himself out? Fight for your job? Or forget your job and move on?

    The narcissists show up everywhere. Rational ppl cannot wrap their minds around “why” (for example) an adult would target an innocent teen in the workplace. I’m not talking about sexual drama. Just drama for the sake of being cruel to the defenseless.

    1. Sorry for the run-on sentences; I’m typing via phone and did not notice until after clicking “send.”

      1. Another, shorter Q (upon rethinking ALL of my N relationships): Once we ID a narcissist, having been armed with your knowledge, is “fight” or “flight” the best way to use this knowledge? And is it different based on the relationship (romantic vs. coworker vs. boss vs. family member vs. friend?

        Because sometimes, knowing how your kind thinks/acts, and the empaths’ urge for justice, confrontation/exposure becomes a first choice. Yet, this is not usually winnable. Your kind lies, and we can’t.

        But, we hate to lose as much as you do…

        1. B.O. I lived your comment. Did you resolve it all. HG helped me He showed me how to not be outgunned, although I was outnumbered. I had to start all over. it is best for myself in the long run. I lost a lot of time in all that. 3 years. But, it could have been more.

          1. It all worked out (the workforce narc). I quit, got another job, and within a few weeks she was fired and they asked me back (and apologized for not listening/trusting me about the narc). My new job brings a lot more $, so I didn’t go back. But, I do go help/fill in when they need extra hands on deck. It’s a good relationship. They did a background check on the narc after firing her, just out of curiosity. She had four or five felony convictions, is currently on 8 years probation. Vindicated. 🔥

          2. Becoming Observant
            You were vindicated alright and, damn straight, they should have listened to you. That was the feel-good comment of the day. Thank you.

          3. You are welcome.

            I come across ppl who are going through tough times (bc of narcs), and they are afraid of sounding crazy when they talk about it. It’s nice to be able to point them to this site. They feel so relieved to learn that they are sane, not alone, and there are ways to handle these situations.

            Being defensive while defusing a narc (or deflecting their smears) is not the way to handle it. HG has shown me that stating the case without emotion (to the ones listening to the narc) and walking away is all you can do. They don’t all come back. The ones who don’t are likely lieutenants.

          4. B.O. I am sorry you went through all that. Like K, said, you were vindicated and actually saw your vidication. You also vindicated yourself by making the difficult decision to do what was best for you. I was vindicated as well through some ridiculous hoovering, but I have reached the point that I do not want any hoovers from that place at all now. And that is a recent development. I like that you were able to retain a relationship there. I guess in my mind, Narcissists never fall. I forget my dynamic is not the only one sometimes. For once, I can say, YAY!!!!!!!! Like K says, and I agree: `That was the feel-good comment of the day. Thank you.`

  36. Hi HG, I sent a few questions with a much longer detailed explanation and it either didn’t get through or you didn’t post it, so I’ll try to simplify.

    1. Is there ever a time when delaying no contact is a good idea, such as waiting until you have gotten safely far away from the narcissist?

    You have determined him to be upper mid-range elite/somatic. I am IPSS/DLS of over five years and I’ve finally made the decision to move far away from him and he has found out my plans. My logical brain is telling me he won’t risk doing anything crazy to jeopardize his marriage and reputation. However, he’s vacillating rapidly between love-bombing (like the original), devaluing, veiled threats, and even hinting he will finally leave his wife (what convenient timing). He’ll never beg, or even ask me to stay. He’s above all that. But I’ve never seen him switch behavior so rapidly and these veiled threats have me worried for my safety.

    2. Should I fake it ’til I make it (out of here), or do you think he is just trying to scare me and put me off balance? My inclination, based on your collective advice, is that I should go no-contact to avoid emotional thinking and focus on my escape. But the threats have me worried. Please let me know what you think. Thank you, as always, for your wisdom.

    1. Hello PR, your comment is in moderation still owing to the questions asked. I will answer them in due course.

  37. HG I have to ask a few related questions…

    1. Have you ever had someone comment regarding the narcissist from their past and had even a fleeting moment when you thought they might be talking about you? Nobody knows who you really are so it’s not impossible an ex fuel source of yours might find this site.

    2. If that did happen, how would you feel about it? How might you respond? (without revealing more than you’re willing about the five rules or anything else you can’t/won’t divulge, of course)

    3. If any of your fuel sources GoSo, and they’re technically following your most wonderful advice (whether they got it from you directly or not), is there any part of you that can respect that?

    For the sake of ease, in these hypothetical scenarios your fuel needs are being met elsewhere at the time.

    1. 1. No.
      2. Amused. Appropriately.
      3. Yes although they would not succeed when faced with me.

      Thank you for the questions and establishing a context also.

        1. It means they do not know about GOSO, therefore if they do not know about it, they cannot succeed versus me.

          1. Oh, thank goodness!

            I worried that you meant that the upper-eschelon of narcs are unshakeable, can’t be ridded-of.

            Thank you for clarifying that for me.

  38. HG, I have counseled with you before and you have determined that the individual I am dealing with is an upper mid-range elite/somatic with a sadistic streak. I am the IPSS/DLS of five years. I have talked about moving out of state for over a year, especially now that it has finally gotten through to me what he is (thanks to you) and that he will never leave his wife (and now I don’t even want him to). I don’t think he’s ever taken me seriously about moving, but it’s finally happening and I think he’s about to implode. There has been a massive grand hoover, love bombing, etc. combined with what I believe are underlying threats, and alternating seething criticism that turns on a dime back to worshipping me again, like nothing I have ever seen from him. He’ll tell me random gruesome stories, send me articles about people grieving over their dead animals and commenting about how sad it is (I’m a huge dog lover), tell me how worried he is when I go on vacation that I’ll be kidnapped in an Uber and sold into sex trafficking… the list goes on and on. I know this is to put fear into my mind and keep me off balance. His most recent stunt is to now hint around that he’s leaving his wife. More lies trotted out thinking I’ll believe he’s finally giving me what I want. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that I am leaving and I want him out of my life. With each sick attempted mind-screw, his emotional grip on me lessens, now that I know what he’s doing. My question for you is this: Should I go no-contact now (two months prior to moving)? Or continue to play dumb-ish and let him think there will still be at least long-distance fuel later, and then go no-contact when I’m at a safe distance? I’m not sure what he’s capable of. You said in your assessment that he did not meet the criteria for a Greater, but sometimes I wonder. The mind games are strong and I see through it all, but the fear is getting to me. The upside to that is that it’s enforcing my flight response. My logic mind says he would never do anything to put his marriage, reputation or livelihood on the line, but I need to know if I’m in danger and how to proceed. Thank you, as always, for your guidance.

    1. This is a detailed matter and you require assistance with regards to

      1. Conquering your emotional thinking as it is understandably impacting on your assessment of the situation and how you feel;
      2. The assessment of the narcissist’s school and behaviours;
      3. Your no contact regime; and
      4. What will happen.

      I advocate you organise an audio consultation with me.

  39. HG,
    Is it possible to think I had met another empath when in fact after about 9 months I begin to see traits and characteristics that remind me of a narcissist-the same pit in my stomach, familiar red flags. At first I told my self, this was not so but something happened last night that made me cry.
    As always thank you.

    1. Hi Victoria,
      I am sorry you are starting to have doubts about the man you are having a new relationship with and that he made you cry.
      I think many MR narcs can be mistaken for empaths. I hope a consultation with HG clears your doubts.

  40. Well, I’m on break from tearing down my mid-range as I await his next misstep. Compelling information. I hope you’ll still be answering questions here.

    Before coming across your information, H G, I learned quite a lot about cognitive function and abilities – diving into the realm of brain activity. Starting my journey there helped me to gain insight and understanding of personality types and people at their base level; see through the “peacocking” if you will. A hypothesis that I have currently is that people with cluster B type personality disorders are lacking in certain cognitive areas and their core deciding functions – thinking and feeling. The question I pose to you is this: Have you investigated where it is in your brain that you’re missing the activity needed for empathy? Are you aware that your cognitive functions are weak and lacking due to the imbalance of skills and ability? Logan Paul is a prime example of some one who has experienced loss of the prefrontal cortex resulting in impulsiveness and lack of empathy with his recent brain scan supporting this hypothesis.

  41. I am blessed with a lesser to mid range. I find that he repeats his diatribes if I have an issue with him. I have almost memorized them. “What about what you did in 2008?” He deflects to the same incident for every argument. Do they all use an identical spiel over and over? Or is he just lazy and uncreative??? I cannot believe I have no new infractions for him to complain about? !!!!What gives???

      1. That’s perfectly sensible. He is quite lazy. It’s a shame. He will say, “I’m stupid”, sometimes. I’m like, “Hell, no.” “You’re smart, you just never apply yourself fully to anything.”
        I can’t open a dialogue about what he wants in future, he literally will not permit me to speak.
        Being fucked with by someone like you seems luxe in comparison!! He wouldn’t even bother anymore. I feel invisible. He stopped accusing me of infidelity 8 months ago.
        I made my own word salad. I apologize and can’t thank you enough. If all you write is true, I give you credit for being honest about just ONE thing.
        I wish he could do the same. So I could figure out what to do. He won’t give his thoughts on the matter.

  42. My husband is a narcissist. I find your work validating and heartbreaking. I am an empath (of course). I find it curious that in all of our houses (he likes to move), he’s never shared a bathroom or closet with me. He will share with the kids. But not me. Is this to perpetuate or underline that I do niot exist?

    1. Welcome Angel, this is done to belittle you, cause you to think that you do not matter and to provoke you into trying to do something about so he is given fuel. It demonstrates his lack of empathy for how it makes you feel and underlines his sense of entitlement.

  43. Kiki,

    you are late on the game, my friend and I mean no offense but if we are to be honest, I would say that maybe 99% of us here have already fantasized or at least thought about how and what would be meeting him in person. It is a natural reaction to someone like him, coming from the place we came from in ourselves.
    It is a connection and it is there. And yes, in many ways he has replaced my narc and I am glad HG did because he has saved me from my own darkness.

    And of course, he has not hurt us; he has helped us. It is like…. we all have narcs in our lives but now we have the Master of all teaching us.

    I need to say something though. This is serious to me. I was reading this thread and someone somewhere mentioned something about his childhood; the fact that he was kept outside in the cold until he could recite something correctly.
    Ok. Those lines hit me like a punch in the stomach. I immediately felt physical pain, like a knife cutting me open from my chest down my stomach and legs. Then shivering. I began shivering in a 94 degree summer heat sitting outside.

    A deep sadness and a loneliness that I cannot possibly convene in words. A sadness that only an innocent child can feel because they are open, innocent, helpless.

    The image in my mind is this little boy dressed in uniform, a brown uniform, shorts, white shirt, hair combed to the side, holding something in his hand, exerting an enormous self-control to not shiver, to not feel it, to dissociate from it. Fear of what would happen if he couldn’t do it. Survival. There is more that I sense but I will stop because I don’t want to sound invasive or throw out assumptions of guesses. I don’t feel or say anymore, out of respect.

    But whoever hurt that little boy in him, is my enemy. As I was once a little girl standing in the cold…

    1. Hello HG, is it more characteristic of a somatic MRN or a victim MRN to withhold sex for control? Some picture sharing, a kiss and other flirting is the only thing that transpired before a devaluation-silent treatment. It was pretty obvious what the E wanted and yet the N didnt oblige in anyway.

      Also, is there such thing as an Elite V, MRN? Or does that sound like an oxymoron 😁

      1. Either Somatic MRN or Victim MRN would withhold sex for control, but it is far more likely from a somatic. You will be given plenty of sex, so withholding it means you feel its absence all the more keenly and are thus brought to heel far more effectively.

        No, you do not have an Elite Victim MRN.

Vent Your Spleen!

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.