Going Down

 

Image result for picture of pushing woman off cliff

It is only ever a question of time before you go down. If you are one of the lucky ones, you may just reach the anniversary of a year since when I wrapped my tendrils around you and pulled you into my world. For others the marker of a year is but a distant dream as they find themselves cast down from their pedestal after a number of months. I know you all find it so troubling and upsetting that one day you are treated like a queen and the next you are regarded as a peasant but that is the nature of this beast. It has always been the case for as long as I can remember and unless the next one lives up to expectations and delivers as they really ought to, then it will continue to be the case. I really would prefer that it was not the case. I know you think that I am some kind of monster for revelling in causing you such pain. I recognise that you are staggered that anybody could behave in what you regard as such an inhuman fashion by meting out physical, emotional, sexual and financial abuse but as is so often the case you are too caught up in your own feelings to actually understand why we do as we do.

I do not revel in the act of making you cry by calling you all manner of names and shouting at you. I do not take vast pleasure in saying who you can socialise with and marshalling your finances as if they are my own. The vast variety of manipulative machinations which I produce from my devil’s toolkit are not the source of my pleasure. Yes, I will admit that I derive satisfaction from exerting such control and power over you, but it is not a huge amount of satisfaction. Why is that? It is for the simple reason that I am superior to you. I am entitled to take such steps and act in this way. It is a given. Accordingly, by behaving in this manner I am simply doing that which is expected of me and that is my right. Thus I am not able to derive huge amounts of pleasure from it. It is not the act which gives me the pleasure but it is your reaction to it. Your heightened emotional reaction combined with the attention that you give me are the reasons why I must cast you down. I know that you hope that this can be avoided and you believe that there is another way. I know you tried to keep me happy by doing everything you could as best you could in the manner that you thought would meet with approval but you always failed in some way. I know my opinion chops and changes form day to day and from hour to hour. But that is the way that I am and you availed yourself of my brilliance so now you must endure this part of my nature. I see no reason to change. Why should I alter from being who I am just because you cannot cope with it? Give way, yield and allow someone else the opportunity to fill your shoes and address matters. Have you considered that the reason you were cast into the dirt was because you just were not good enough? Oh I know you tried. You told me often enough. By God I tired of hearing you whine and moan about how much you do for me and I have no time for such jealousy. That is what it is. You have been exposed to my brilliance and you wanted it for so long. You enjoyed being admitted to my world with all that such admission entailed but then you failed to show the requisite appreciation and respect. I knew what was behind it. You wanted what I had for yourself but that is impossible. I am used to people wanting to claim what is mine as their own. It is a hazard of being a leader, a pioneer and a person that others look up to. I expect it of the minions that I must interact with, the knee benders, the elbow people and hand-wringers. I can see it in their eyes as they kiss my pinkie ring. They want to be me but they cannot. I am cut from a different and far superior cloth and the best that they can ever hope for is to be included in my court and experience my reflected glory. I expected such petty envy from them but not from you. You were meant to be different but as so often been the case you proved that you were little better than them. Yes, you showed me some service in the provision of the fuel that I require but as ever it was short-lived and that is why I had to cast you down. You brought it on yourself. You signed your own death warrant and that was why you had to go down. Could I have chosen a different method and allowed you to walk away? No, not at all. What you must understand is that you feasted at my table. You gorged on my love, you drank deep of my generosity and you clothed yourself in all the appreciation, desire, passion, attention and dedication that I provided to you. I gave all of this in order to receive from you but you still benefitted from it on a massive scale. Having taken you must pay for it and if you failed to do so in the manner I have decreed then there is no hope for it other than for you to pay with your sanity and your self-esteem. That currency, along with your emotional outpourings became acceptable methods of repaying what I have provided to you. It is not permissible for you to leave with paying. In fact, on your way down, it is not permissible to leave. At all.

 

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98 thoughts on “Going Down”

    1. Exactly and what a pleasant way of self exposure one does not need to say anything that you’re crazy you did it yourself your precious little self did it all on your own you didn’t needed my help at all or anyone else’s . Somehow I can hear mozArts lacrimossa repertoire ringing at the top of the church how beautiful and painful ….. For you

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      1. Liar because it’s the same thing you do deal everyday HAHAHAAAAAA pffffft I won’t believe you

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      2. I like the portrait of the joker because it’s what I study but from a different perspective because this joker has a psychological background and psychological stuff and human behavior is something I thirst like a vampire for good purpose of course . But don’t worry I won’t use you like a lab rat I’m just fascinated at this new behavior to me for it is much better for my knowledge in advantage and wisdom information so I won’t perish and beat every narcicist that crosses my path like a tornado there i said it although Christian bales batman is awesome I’m personally a fan of his training that’s all I’ll say about that

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    1. Hahahaaaaaa that’s called having God complex without the power to control the world universe only God the real God jehiva has that power no one else does

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  1. Thank Goodness, “some” will escape and thrive again. Not all are taken down. And thank “the goodness” in you HG that you have helped to save a good percentage of us from that destructive emotional snare. And because YOU can be the villain as well as now the healer, many of us will rise again from our great flaming fall to the bottom of our soul. Thank you again for sharing your extreme transparency into the monster you “once” were. And do not try to say to me that you “still are,” for your words of extreme ironic wisdom speak otherwise. For your wise methodical emotional therapy; as we see here everyday, should be clinically indoctrinated abroad to help the masses. Thank you again, Mr. Monster HG. ;c)

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  2. Confessions of a psycopathic killer monologue . When did you became the pope in the Mozart era that people had to kiss your precious little ring in a throne designed for twelve year olds? hahahaaaaaa where did you get the ring? A cereal box? hahahaaaaaa sarcasm is my name and my weapon much like miss congeniality armed and always forever will be fabulous awwww too bad your precious little intelligence if a twice year old can’t comprehend that considering your e tire self abs jugs are pure products if your wild artistic wide imagination

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      1. No honey I was going to say I’m attractive and I have beautiful blonde hair painted blue with brown eyes, glasses and a nice little party of my own I’m totally not like nanny mcfee at all I’m way more beautiful than Emma Thompson. you rascal Tudor very funny I knew you would say that …. 😝

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      2. Indigo but I’m considering changing it to something else haven’t decided yet….

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  3. Very painful to read. When a relationship could be full of fun, love, care…
    Very well written HG 👍🏻😍..
    I just say I am sending love to those who were in such a situation.. Or who still are ..
    That tjey have the light to get out or improve the sitiatiom.

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    1. it’s exactly what you said…. exactly!this is what I told my narc many times before I understood what he was

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  4. So what happens when you leave. When you as the ‘victim’ leave before you have been devalued? Not only did I learn his game quickly…. Although I did fall. I realized it was all a mind game, and not only did I beat his game. I systematically and secretly defamed his character with his past supply, his current friends/family, with hard proof of text, voicemails. Then I made sure he got fired from his job knowing someone in HR at his office was something helped me out at that point. Now he is desperate to find me and reach me. I left with far superior place than he will ever reach due to my education and professional job, all my finances, and moving on with all my current friends and family…. I find it interesting that even as I read this it plays into his games. It is fascinating from a knowledge psychological standpoint. Once I removed my feelings, I was free and then I let the games begin. He lost when I played his mind games and the funny thing he doesn’t realize it was me. His latest ploy to get me to respond was pathetic at best…. And now he is poor as shit with no prospect. The best is yet to come as some legal trouble is headed for him…. And he still has no clue. What goes through the mind of the narc when their best primary supply walks away and their life blows up everywhere?

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    1. If the primary source escapes us we lose a major source of fuel. We are also heavily criticised, this wounds us and we need to find fuel quickly. We may turn to a prospect who we see as a new primary source and try to embed that person even faster, borne out of necessity. We will also turn to the supplementary sources of fuel to assist us during this chaotic time. If there is no primary source in the process of being embedded we shall target one and seduce that person, all the while relying heavily on out supplementary sources (possibly garnering more of those as well) in order to heal the wound and replenish the fuel.

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  5. Your response to the Nanny McPhee comment cracked me up. Oh my gosh, too funny.. I started backing away from him shortly after we started dating. It made him dig his tentacles in like an octopus. It was three years before he let himself show his true colors, and that was only after i accepted his proposal. I wish he could have seen that my self esteem was already shattered. Then he could have moved along.

    What is the longest seduction you’ve had?

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      1. Wow that’s what happened to me …. Tears we’ve known each other since 2002 lie ice said but it wasn’t until 2005 that things started to kick in after one month after my divorce

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      2. Indigo. Reminds me of a joke long ago. True Narc😊😊😊Not as great as the comment you made referencing ones behaviour similarities to I believe it was bipolar. I laughed for days, I guess that was my fuel. Naturally, you may not remember it was months ago. The person went hysterical.

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      3. How long have you been with your current supply? My N1 and I were golden for only a few months. It is almost comical now. He told me that he was calling me too much and that he needed to stop, just before the devalue. I wanted to ask him if that was a promise. He then came back into my life bc he needed a Calculus tutor and was too cheap to pay. I couldn’t let him fail calc. What kind of horrible person would I be?

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      4. Which one…I should have known you had more than one. Your primary at the current time, or are you existing on the fumes of secondary sources?

        Did he pass? Yes. It was not anything due to me. He had it in him all along.

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  6. can you tell me HG… how do you react when your source has realised what you are, has almost completely separated & escaped and is able to laugh at you? do you derive fuel from her laughter and disdain?

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    1. The disdain and mocking laughter amounts to a criticism. Since this person “has almost completely separated and escaped” means they have not separated nor escaped and therefore the ignited fury from their disdain would be visited on them savagely.

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      1. And are these savage measures what got you into possible legal issues prior to going into treatment?

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  7. This is bang on!

    I still can’t figure out whether I was his primary supply or secondary. We were together for almost 2 1/2 years. During that time there were two other women he was dating simultaneously. One of them he was basically using for sex. So when these two came to know about each other he let her go immediately and never hoovered. The other woman who stayed despite knowing everything and few months later contacted me. Till date I couldn’t understand who between us was the primary supply? Is it possible to have two primary supplies? I had been with him before her. We both spent a lot of money on him, but I spent way more. He would spend much more time with me. The other woman couldn’t afford to spend so much time due to family constraints. Later when we shared our stories I realised he showed her more “affection” than he ever showed me. Was more “scared” to lose her than me. I must also add that between her and me, I was more in love which he knew. The kind of ill treatment I took from him, she would never (that’s what she told me though he had treated her bad as well, but not as much as he treated me). He had stopped being physical with her but not with me. It was his choice not hers. She would crave but he would give her. But all the emotional talks etc, he would do way more with her. All this left me so confused. Can you explain anything about this HG, please?

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    1. Hello Peeya, I am pleased you found the article useful.
      No there can only be one primary supply but, as has happened with you, you can be shifted between primary and secondary source repeatedly as part of a triangulation. You were the PS. The lady used for sex was a secondary source – inner or outer circle friend. Sex was the weapon of seduction and also the catalyst for fuel gathering. The Other Woman was also a secondary source, again inner or outer circle. There will have been occasions when he demoted you to a secondary source and the OW became the primary source. That was when he appeared to show her more affection. I would point out that you are attempting to measure affection, fear, bad treatment, emotional discussions which is possible but given that they are intangible concepts they are much more prone to error because it is all about the perception. I suspect, form what you have written, you were the primary source for longer periods that the Other Woman, but he vacillated between the two of you, making one PS and the other SS before swapping again. This would be done as part of his ongoing control and manipulation and to stimulate the fuel provision as well.

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  8. HG the reasoning behind all of this is so you can’t ever get rejected , you reject first ? Is that correct ?

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    1. People often think that the reason we jettison you is because we don’t want to be rejected ourselves. Naturally, we do not want to be rejected (although even if you do we either maintain we ended it first or we use it to draw sympathy from parties and to smear you as the horrible person we know you to be, so it results in a win whichever way you look at it for us). We in fact reject you because your fuel has gone stale or you are not producing enough of it or for the reasons I explained in the post The Cast Off Quintet.

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  9. “I wish I looked before I leaped
    I didn’t know it was so deep
    Been down so far I don’t get wet
    Haven’t touched the bottom yet….”
    The title put that Monkees song in my head….

    Interesting image,why did you choose two men and not a man and woman for the visual depiction of your words? Excellent article by the way, as always they make me think.

    You wish her to yield, which you have expressed here as to give way, move aside for another, opposed to give up of oneself to another. Her fall from Your Grace, was inevitable. There shall always be a ticking clock or time bomb.

    With regard to the concept of pedastalization. It suggests the one which is pedastalized/ exalted is deemed to be more valuable then the one idealizing. This is a stark contrast to a Narcissists thinking. I understand why a co dependent would idealize their partner In this manner. Can you explain why A Narcissist does? Is it soley to lift one to great heights of adoration to effect an even greater fall? Or is it simply the endorphin rush they experience when pursuing and ensnaring, that they truly think this is the ONE and when the individual cannot measure up to the unreasonable expectations placed upon them, they then become a traitor who must go down for their preceived trangressions?

    Is it not akin, to how we too idealize the men/women we love and it is not until we realize what they truly are and that they never loved us that they go down, ie. are removed from their pedastal before us. With the exception, of punishment. We are less likely to mete such out.

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      1. I was asking you to identify the questions when I asked “which ones” because as I pointed out you ask a lot of questions.

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      2. I only made one post on this article, prior to asking the questions question….so I was referring to the questions posed in that one post. Thank you.
        I was under the understanding you welcomed my questions and inqusitiveness.

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      3. Where did I write that I do not welcome your questions? I didn’t. All I asked was which one you were referring to because you ask a lot of questions. A fair enough request and designed in order to identify which one you meant so I could answer it. Perhaps I should not seek clarification in future and just forge ahead?

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      4. I actually said I was under the understanding you appreciated my questions…not suggesting you do not. You stated that I ask a lot of questions , which I confirm that I do. Because you writing lends to thinking and questioning and seeking answers. That is a compliment to you HG! Not an insult.

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      5. Let me read …thank you so much HG. You know I have such a keen thirst for your knowledge and answers. You were quite expedient in your reply. I do appreciate that, sorry to be a bother.

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    1. Ah, the four questions, not just the one.

      1. I chose two men because whilst the dynamic is often a male narcissist vs a female victim, there are of course instances of homosexual man v homosexual victim (as in intimate partner) , heterosexual man v heterosexual man (non-intimate relationship), hetero man v homo man (non-intimate relationship) and homo man v hetero man (non intimate relationship) so I thought I would reflect that for a change. An idealised lover is cast down as an idealised friend, family member of colleague might be as well (although less often for reasons I have advanced on previous occasions)
      2. It is not a case of you being more valuable than us but you are deemed valuable to us because of the fuel you provide in such luscious quantities at this juncture.
      3. Yes the device is to raise you up high so that if there comes a need to drop you (ultimately you let us down and this has to happen) then you will break open with lashings of negative fuel. The ascendancy to such a pedestal also serves a purpose in securing you to us since it is so euphoric and marvellous to be treated this way.
      4. There is also the desire for you to be the one that results in your being treated in such a way and as you identify you ultimately, despite such faith placed in you, fail at a later juncture to live up to those expectations.
      I am pleased you liked the article.

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      1. We’re there four, I must have missed a question mark I there somewhere, my mistake. I thought there were only three.

        1. I wondered if that was for political correctness and to show a varied dynamic of casting down. Excellent. Thank you.

        2. But, in the case if the co dependent you are regarded as being more valuable. Once providing a flow of positive fuel the pedastal remains unwaivering, but a change in the flow of supply can instigate a topple. Thank you.

        3.” Break open with lashing of negative fuel”….wonderful imagery In those words. I find being on a pedastal uncomfortable, figuratively. I would, much rather Praise another , then receive praise. I was never good with compliments given to me. Why I would deflect his compliments with changing it to him.
        4. Yes, destined to fail. I would think those who can only pump out positive praise and adulation be destined to a longer pedastal stay, someone like me I elf loves and praises , but also speak her mind and challenges, less likely. Mind you, I am sure he despises my questioning and thoughts, yet he still kept me up I the pedastal, nevr devaluing any aspect of myself, my intelligence. My appearance, my kindness, my generosity, loyalty, et cetera…I am a bit of a self sabotager, but I am genuine in my approach.
        I was not much of a hold your tongue, type. Even though I do love ardently.

        Excellent answers, I couldn’t have asked or hoped for any better. I am most happy.

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      2. I do like to understand and know. It can be a maddening quality. Which makes me look unappreciative, when actually I very much am the opposite. Your replies and other readers replies are valuable to my understanding of the whys and what’s that occurred.

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      3. Miss s I’m sure you’re probably very educated but with all due respect but for your own healing benefit stop apologizing so much that kills out self esteem as we be diver our dignity over and over again over little things if no imperative which stops out froth its time to step up my good friend and build our assertiveness and self esteem and completely recover our best friend dignity

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  10. HG, are there any similar patterns of behavior (both yours and hers) with the primaries who make it to the 1-year mark? Are the devaluations/STs more frequent? Are the reinstated golden periods fewer and farther between? What about sex? Less frequent, or only on an as needed basis? By the 1-year mark, I figure the primary must be pretty hooked and have built up a high tolerance (like it wasn’t high to begin with!) for abuse and not likely to seek escape. And if she is an especially reliable fuel source – like, say, a co-dependent? – you are likely to keep her around.

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    1. It varies on the fuel that is provided and the resilience/stickability of the primary source. The positive fuel may have been excellent,it has waned and thus devaluation commences. The primary source may wilt and fold under the pressure and thus discard comes quickly so long as a new primary source has been recruited. Others may supply excellent negative fuel and hang in there, which merits a respite period, their relieved positive fuel is immense and therefore this prolongs the respite period. It may be that she does something which provokes the cessation of the golden period, resulting in a harsh devaluation again, but still she hangs in there even when there is a longer gap before a respite period appears again. It is all governed by the fuel. It may be the case that the golden period lasted a year, devaluation arrives and they only serve a function for a few months before being discarded or they may hang in there for 6 months pumping out glorious negative fuel. It all depends on the nature of the fuel (this governs whether we keep them for positive and negative fuel and for how long before discarding) and the nature of the victim in terms of how long they hang in there for.

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      1. Thanks, HG. All about the fuel, bout the fuel (no diesel). (Reference to Megan Trainor’s song, which I am not a fan of but it’s hard to get out of your head.)

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  11. Ha! I think the longer the supply hangs in there, the less energy the narc has to spend on recreating/reinstating a golden period. He has to save that energy for hooking newer and potential backup supply. But if he knows that no matter what he does to the primary he will ultimately get away with it, the frequency and intensity of the reinstated GPs probably decrease over time, along with her sanity and self-esteem.

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    1. There is force in that proposition. Also bear in mind that the further you are dropped the sudden halting of hostilities (even if we do not revert to the glorious behaviour of the first golden period) feels so marvellous and all we did was stop the savagery. That saves considerable energy. You are correct that we do not have to work as hard to gain that relief and spilling positive fuel again after a cruel and harsh devaluation. I am working on something which provides examples of how this plays out, what the thought process behind it is and what you can expect,by reference to those I have ensnared, to provide a detailed picture. I have no title for the book yet though.

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      1. Cody, and HG, this is something I am very curious about as I stayed with my Narc for 14 years, and I am fascinated as to why I was never discarded, why I was able to provide such satisfying fuel, no one before me and he is 8 years older than I, so there were plenty, and no one so far after me has passed a few years, and he does everything HG describes by the book as far as the Golden, devalue and discard, then hoovers etc to these woman, he even has gone back to one from 16 years ago, that alone has me convinced its never over for me…I would love a book to read on this subject – why long term relations last, what it takes on the target part to keep the narc, and the long term effects etc. I can help with any material you need you can interview me HG! LOL.

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      2. CC, I have often stated that we never really discard, it is a dis-engagement which occurs, a temporary state of affairs. So when you say you were never discarded, in truth, none of you ever are, not in our eyes. Still, using the word in the sense of a end to the formal relationship, yes the dance can continue for years and depends on lots of different factors – the type of N, the nature of the victim, the fuel provided, the extent of knowledge about what the N is, the extent of the knowledge about extra-curricular activity of the N and so forth. The Asylum of the Grotesque will provide some insight on this, along with other points as well. I am interested CC, how long was the initial golden period for, then how long was the devaluation for? Were there any respite periods interwoven in that period of devaluation? Presumably you escaped him.
        Indeed CC, keep your notes, I might need them!

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      3. Yes, I understand the true nature of the discard, I should be more specific. I don’t relate to the discard often described, one day he is gone, or one day he replaced me, or one day needed a break from me. I do realize he played out many discards within the relationship while never physically removing himself. I will take you up on the Asylum of the Grotesque. The initial Golden Period, honestly HG I don’t think I had one, at least not the way you describe it. He was always sweet and complimentary at the same time as he was annoying and jokingly made fun of me. He wouldn’t leave me alone, and he did so with charm and a smile. I don’t think the golden period felt like the golden period till years into the marriage, but in the beginning he just was so damn persistent and chased me, I guess it was his chase that made me feel good. Devaluation, I think that started from the get-go, like I described from above, I learned early on he knew how to hurt me, as he proclaimed he was just giving me a hard time, I was being too sensitive etc, with his charm and smile, He never made me feel completely devalued, he would do and say things that caused great hurt and by the end of the day he was charming me or acting as if nothing had happened. Mostly he devalued me if I wasn’t giving, doing what he wanted, and more often then not I would give in, he was good at exhausting me, circular arguments, keeping me awake late into the night etc, never the silent treatment good God I would pray for that..there were many respites throughout the years, they often lasted a few months to 6 months at the most, then back on the wheel of chaos, usually finances, sometimes sex stuff etc. Yes I did escape, the whole time I never felt not “CHASED” by him, he used to make me feel guilty for not appreciating this who lucky I was to have a man still chase me want me, how woman wished their men did that …I had no idea how good I had it..etc etc I just kept telling him, I need a break, I want to be normal, I don’t need all that, it felt very smothering.

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    2. Hi B&T. The song (it drives me nuts!) is “All About That Bass”. I think it may have been the song that put Meghan (I forgot that silent “h” last time – or is it silent?) T on the map!

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  12. Dear Golden Boy,
    Is there joy in repetition? I was a 2 year jumper. Seduce, maintain, discard, repeat. I got out of the game. I had a bad car accident and went to Dr. M. I thought I was going there just for my case. However, I realized I was messed up. I didn’t know until I started working on myself. U too are working, maybe, do we really know? U 2 are in perpetual repeat. Here’s the deal. Life is not a shampoo bottle. We learn and grow. But hey, if you want to stay stunted, that’s your pick. I have been married for 15 years this December. I stopped. I still get tempted. I still have a strong pull to repeat. I just have to choose how far to the edge I will go. I liked the edge, I lived there a long time. It’s exciting, exhilarating, a rush. I just got to make sure someone like you doesn’t take me there and then throw me over whilst laughing at my destruction. You wouldn’t do that would you?
    Book Title:
    The Narcissists Joy in Repetition. Breaking the Cycle of a Narcissist. HG Tudors Guide to Shampooing.
    Living on the Edge, a Narcs guide to Cliffs.
    Narcissistic Cliffhanger-Disarm the Discard.
    Breaking Bad, oh wait that was a TV show.
    Narcs Sons of Anarchy, damn that was TV too.
    I’m sure your genius self will come up with something clever.

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      1. I, for one, would love to see you write something a la PB RE: your personal care routine. Ever since I`ve been on this blog, I thought to myself, “If anyone could write a thrilling account of his personal care routine, it would HG Tudor!”

        “In the morning, if my face is a little puffy I’ll put on an ice pack while doing stomach crunches. I can do 1000 now. After I remove the ice pack I use a deep pore cleanser lotion. In the shower I use a water activated gel cleanser….”

        Mind you, I bet you can do more than 1000 stomach crunches……;)

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      2. A marvellous scene and one which I bear as watchword to my heart.

        Do you like discussing the various types of mineral water B&T?

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      3. I do hope you buy your bottled water in glass bottles, HG, and not plastic.

        75 per cent of all bottled water in America is actually spring water. Did anyone know that?

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      4. Ah touché. Not Appolinaris, then.

        I like your style, HG. Very Italian, indeed and San Pellegrino is the finest sparkling natural mineral water.

        I raise my glad to thee. I do so love the clinking of fine crystal.

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      5. But of course, HG, though I am also interested in finding out your thoughts on deep pore cleansing lotions, water-activated gel cleansers and, of course, how long you leave your herb-mint facial mask on.

        10 minutes or more? 😉

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  13. HG, you apprroach the subject of abuse with almost scholarly preceision and detail. You are also rather intelligent. Is there a possibility that you are on the Asperger’s spectrumm somewhat lightly?

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    1. Hello Anteah, I do not believe so, what do you think? I do have an inner circle friend who has Asperger’s. I can see some slight similarities (we are both very intelligent – me more so than him, we don’t like to be touched (although I will tolerate it for a greater aim, he just cannot stand it full stop) thought there are differences. He is clumsy, I am not. He has very few friends, I have lots. You are correct that I approach the subject with a scholarly precision and detail and I am obliged for the comment.

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  14. I can only say that we as in general population and most professionals now know about the nature of aspergers About as much as we know about the nature of sociopathy, but my money is on that they both are slightly different representation of the same condition, given the epigenetic variences, the root of which is very ironically synonomous with your chosen name, with sociopathy having an extra added layer of social conditioning. But i get that its a fringe thinking still.

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    1. Hello Anteah and thank you for your comment which has caught my interest. Would you expand on these statements?
      – my money is on that they both are slightly different representation of the same condition –
      – with sociopathy having an extra added layer of social conditioning –
      I can gauge where you are coming from but these are interesting statements and I would welcome expansion.

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    2. Hi ANTEAH, I have read that many Asperger individuals can be mistaken for narcissists. Not being in touch with emotions , partners will feel unloved , unwanted and the indifference in the same way ?
      I’m still not convinced that there is not a genetic link with Narcisism although anyone could be made to become that way in the right set of circumstances, I don’t argue with that. But I think there’s a genetic link ??

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  15. I have encountered many teenagers and young adults on the spectrum with aggression and siething hate towards others who were also comorbidly, as it often goes, diagnosed as oppositional defiant, which later in life becomes antisocial usually as they mature. Many were graceful, non geeky and very manipulative. Most dangerously intelligent. But also exhibited enough symptoms to be given an Aspergers diagnosis and too young to be diagnosed with a personality disorder, but that ODD kind of qualified the early symptoms of it. There is just a lot comorbidity with those things.

    Once ive heard a mother of one of the kids recall that her kid said to her that he always has this relentless anger and that even love does not stop it for too long. It reminded me of the fuel addiction cycle.

    It is a possibility that NPD is a form of Aspergers which occurs in suseptible population as a result of a combination of several factors, one of which is specific upbringing thay you have mentioned, such as being raised as a golden child or a scapegoat.

    However those are just my speculations based on some pattern overlap recognition and just plain old gut feeling.

    Also there are plenty of studies pointing at specific evironmental pollutants causing aggressive and plain criminal behavior.

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    1. Thank you for expanding your point Anteah there are several points to ponder. Dealing with your last point I do recall a study pointing out that lead (once so prevalent in exhaust fumes) had a deleterious affect on those who regularly inhaled them along the lines that you have suggested.

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