I Want To Be Adored

 

Image result for picture of adoring crowd

 

The only time that I have felt safe when I was young was when I felt powerful. There were two ways that I was able to achieve this. Adoration or fear. By causing someone to adore me, I felt powerful, I felt myself swelling inside, a warmth sweeping across me, a sensation of unlimited potential. I have realised now that this gave me a sense of feeling omnipotent, invulnerable and capable of doing anything. Indeed, the achievements that I accomplished, through academia, sport, hobbies supported this sensation that so long as I felt powerful I could do anything that I wanted but most of all nobody would hurt me. Of the two catalysts for this, people adoring me or people fearing me, it was adoration which arose first. When I am forced to think back to my childhood (since it is not something that I voluntarily do) I remember that those isolated and they were isolated, those isolated moments of adoration shielded me from everything else that went on.

When I was praised, complimented, lauded and applauded I felt this sensation of power surge inside of me and this overcame the wariness and nervousness that otherwise governed my day to day existence. You see, I learned that it was wiser to remain in the shadows. Out of sight meant out of range and therefore the caustic criticisms and cutting chastisement could be avoided, but only for so long. I cannot recall the first time that I felt the power which rose from praise but I do remember on one occasion I had finished first in the class in respect of English. I did not know what my position would be and I passed the sealed envelope to my mother who loomed over me as she always did. I waited for the irritated sigh, the articulation of disappointment or even the stinging slap of annoyance but none of these familiar mechanisms visited me this day.

“Excellent work.”

Had I misheard? No, I had been told that what I had achieved was excellent and I felt the warm surge which I would later come to know as the power. I tried to reach out, emboldened I suppose by this feeling of safety, to hug my mother but she sidestepped my attempt and moved away. For once though I did not feel that crushing sensation whenever she did such a thing to rebuff me, I felt good, I felt safe and it was because she had praised me. It was only much later that I began to understand the connection between being praised and adored made me feel so much better inside. I was always pushed, driven, instructed and commanded to excel and I knew that the achievement of excellence would surely draw more of this delicious praise that I craved so, so much. Little did I realise how elusive this place of safety caused by adoration would prove to be.

The following year, my first at secondary school and I received a mid-year report, around the end of November. With the change of school came the change of practice, for we were allowed to see our list of placings follow the mid-year examinations and besides the placing was the percentage score achieved, the grade and comments thereafter. I recently located all of my reports and sought out the very first one from my secondary school as I needed to check that my memory had not rusted given the passage of time. It had not. There amongst the results was the one for English Language. I was placed first, the percentage achieved was 76%, the grade was B+ and the comments are best described as cautious encouragement. I was first again. Top of the class. I felt the anticipatory surge of the praise that was sure to come once this report was passed to my mother.

Later that day I handed the report to her. My results were very good, I realised that, but it did not matter. I wanted, I needed her to tell me and make me feel good.

“I came top in English again,” I commented drawing attention to one of many highlights. There was no response as my mother took the folded sheet, opened it and examined the paper for evidence to support my assertion. I waited for the praise to come, relishing the warmth that would rise inside of me.

“Edward!” exploded my mother calling my father’s name. My father dutifully entered the living room from the adjoining study.

“Yes dear?” he asked.

“He came top with seventy-six per cent, just seventy-six per cent. That was enough to top the class. Have you placed him in a class of idiots? This is not good enough.”

My father began one of his protestations as he sought to mollify my mother. I do not recall what he said or what she said by way of response as their voices became background noise as I felt the anxiety and fear sweep over me. I was not good enough. I came top just like last time but it was not good enough. I turned and ran upstairs, the shame burning through me. There was no power. I felt unsafe, exposed and vulnerable. On the landing I passed my sister, Rachael, who had no doubt emerged as a consequence of my mother’s screeching and my father’s bumbling replies, ready to try to pacify the eruption as she always sought to do.

“What is it HG?” she asked.

“Nothing,” I snapped at her. I didn’t want her mocking me as well.

“Is it your exam results?” she asked. I nodded.

“Did you come top again?”

I nodded.

“Wow, that’s great, you are so clever HG,” she smiled and hugged me. I did not respond. I felt stiff and awkward but her comment caused the shame to lessen and a slight surge. It was not the same though. I broke away and headed to my room to curl up on my bed and hope that the still lingering shame would leave me alone.

I so desperately wanted that sense of power again and it had been denied to me. I felt useless. I knew however that there was only one thing to do. Work harder. Apply myself. Try harder and then she would give me the praise that I wanted and needed and that was rightfully mine.

I am beginning to understand that the seeds of my need to be adored were sown through instances like this. Adoration created power which created safety. Adoration created power which created the ability to do more, achieve more and gain even further adoration. Hers was always the adoration I wanted the most for with it I felt more powerful but I also found that any form of compliment, praise or adoration achieved a similar outcome. I knew that in order to be the powerful figure I knew that I actually was, all I had to do was ensure that I was adored. Achievement and accomplishment were the routes to gaining this adoration but then I realised that whilst I was successful, it was actually the image of success that mattered. Who were people to know that I didn’t actually hold the school record for swimming 100m when I recounted such an achievement years later? They did not know but the looks of admiration came nevertheless. All I had to do was show that whatever boast I made was vaguely credible. My physique being athletic meant that nearly all sporting achievements could be passed off as my own and I began to supplement those that I had with the bogus ones. The results were just the same if not better. Thus it became easy to tell lies. I did not stop securing achievements, I still had to be the best in my chosen fields, but I began to tell more and more lies to achieve the looks of admiration and adoration. I realised that it served my purposes to acquaint myself with other successful people because firstly, I belonged to such a group and secondly, I could listen to their achievements and then go and use them as my own. I could build up my suit of armour with a combination of my accomplishments and those stolen from those I interacted with. All that mattered was that I gained the praise, I received the admiration and the adoration. This desire infected all of my relationships and as time went on, I wanted and needed this from the man I passed in the street as I walked to the convenience store. I wanted and needed it from colleagues, friends, strangers in particular from those that I coupled with in the form of an intimate relationship. This was what mattered. I had to be adored because once I was I felt powerful, I was the person that I was meant to be. I ruled. I conquered. I felt safe. Nobody could hurt me when I felt this way. This is why I want you to adore me, each and every day, to praise the way I make a cup of tea for you, to compliment the way I dress, to admire the money that I make, to laud how popular I am, to adore the way I lead you by the hand into the bedroom.

She taught me that to survive I had to be praised. If this did not happen I felt weak, crushed and useless and such a sensation would arise from any and all criticisms that I perceived in respect of people’s treatment of me. The fact that praise was not forthcoming meant that this must inherently be a criticism and this wounds me, makes me feel small and pathetic and I am not those things, but you make me feel like that and that is why I lash at you. That is why I blame you because you do make me feel like that when you have it in your gift to adore me and make everything better for me.

Isn’t that what she was meant to do? Make everything better. I need to you to that now. I want to be adored.

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239 thoughts on “I Want To Be Adored”

  1. Yes CJ. I am every bit BPT. I have been working with a great team of doctors in The USA for many years. It’s diagnosed.

  2. I no borderline split when they see there caretaker as both a good person and an evil person. We do not think of our caretaker as a single unit. I woke up each day and wondered if I was going to deal with the nice mom or the evil one. She was never just a mom. That split my thinking into black and white. There is no neutral ground for me. I am learning to change that and build a neutral ground.

          1. Along with Catholic school girl uniforms – “Hit Me Baby One More Time”

          2. As if you don’t know how emotion ridden Catholic guilt can be on a person. Smh

          3. The return of Mr. Funny Pants.

            Q: What do you call a sleepwalking nun?
            A: A roamin’ Catholic!

      1. My mom gave me the name minus one…on purpose….i always made a point to make one mistake on my exams…except for the exam I purposely failed. If you never answer my followup, that’s fine. I can be prickly. Gift/curse and all that.

      2. calm down x 😉 as long as You know they are lies…You know how how truthful You are babe, don’t You?

      3. I am the Way, the Truth and the Light.

        A quote often mistakenly attributed to Jesus Christ when in fact, it was HG Tudor who originally said this.

        I love setting history straight.

      4. LOL HG. It’s “I got you crazy”. I had to look it up bc the radio station seemed to change when that song came on. The lyrics are pretty accurate. Surprisingly my ears didn’t bleed out. I couldn’t make it through Toxic, maybe a minute of that squeaky riff raff. Ugh and now I have an earworm.

      5. Have you heard the song Over and Over by Three Days Grace? Its pretty appropriate too. Could be used with both POV.

        Over and over
        Over and over
        I fall for you
        Over and over
        Over and over
        I try not to.

        Over and over
        Over and over
        You make me fall for you
        Over and over
        Over and over
        You dont even try.

        I didn’t even have to look up the lyrics. 😉

  3. I have chewed on this Oak tree of a post and now have it down to a pencil. Thought alot about what K said. Thought about lucky otters thoughts but of course Mostly HG. HG knows exactly what he is. He may not know exactly how he became that way, but his coping mechanisms are intact.

    As far as changing. I agree that he is changing, but is he transforming? Big difference. Think of a couple, the wife may say to the husband oh, you need to get some better clothes. Husband thinks his clothes are fine but hey whatever, so he wears the clothes she picks out. It is a change in outward appearance but it didn’t change him inside, he could put old clothes back on when she is out. There was no transformation. His mind wasn’t transformed just his outward appearance.

    Now HG is self aware which gives him choices. He has enough information about what he is to outwardly appear what he needs to be in any given situation. But he does not have enough force actuating his mind to transform or make his mind over to really become different. He is building up his will or force maybe, with help from doctors and blog.

    Now the key is courage. Watch a video on YouTube of a honey badger. This dog sized creature will go up against a pride of lions. It has built in courage. HG has to get courageous enough to transform. He is the little boy who didn’t have the ability or courage to stand up to her. He doesn’t have built in courage. He was built with fear, intimidation and conditions. But he, as well as everyone has a choice. We can all course correct. He can keep believing he is fine the way he is and it works or can make his mind over to become HG 2.0.

    It’s a fearful thing to face the monster. Fear throws love out the window. So if you transform into a bigger badder monster like he did, then your not afraid, you can’t be hurt, you’ll just use fear and intimidation to make others love u. It’s conditional then. Jump thru this hoop, no this one, now set it on fire and do it, it will never ever be enough.

    HG is a sieve that’s cannot retain love. I agree he has to learn how to love. He never had an example of real love. You can’t be something you don’t know. It’s like asking someone who has no children to teach you how to be a parent to your child. They don’t know so they can’t teach. His mom couldn’t teach love. She taught fear. They are direct opposites.

    My Mother is victim narc. My Father is Narc/sociopath. I agree with K here. They were both hard on themselves. They had same family dynamics. Narcs are trying their hardest to be the best. They need accolades and approval. HGs Mom expected the best from the extension of her, HG, so she could prove shes the best. My parents same thing. They cant teach love because they didn’t have love. Until I learned through years of therapy that I will never get their approval, that emotionally hijacking others was not the way to live and I had to make up my mind to transform and not just change outwardly, I could not love myself or anyone else.

    HG is an elite narc. He is at the top of the Narc game. Why should he change? He asks that question repeatedly. He has to want it. I don’t believe him. I’m skeptical. I don’t trust him. He would rip your throat out. He likes a challenge. He likes new blood. Why would he give it up? If he doesn’t want to transform there is no sense wishing or hoping he will. He gave us his playbook. He is what he writes. He strings it out, will he or won’t he. Some here are in the game with him/them. We are high school ballers and he/they are LeBron James. U cannot win against him/them unless u follow the warning, no contact. Please don’t misunderstand me. I think it is nice of HG to let us walk in his Narc brain and observe life through his eyes. He has said though that he is not doing it to be nice. He gets fed, we get answers. That’s it. Don’t get your hopes up. Yes I’m cynical. Yes I’m going to get backlash. I’m really not trying to be mean here. I’m looking through logic not feelings. Do I care about HG? Yes. Do I want him to make the choice to transform? Yes. Do I want everybody here to be happy? Yes. Are all those things possible? Yes. Should I hit send? No. Am I going to?

    1. Anna,

      What HG is doing is remarkable. I have never seen any soul strong enough to get this far. But you are forgetting…he is the Elite…he understands if he chooses control. He can do it…but change is not a “jump in the water feet first thing” – change started with a choice a day. For me, when I change something – I test it. I touch it and do something different – for that one thing – if it didn’t go that badly – I make a couple more – wade in the water – don’t submerge…

      All your words were so wise and insightful (second of course to HG 😉 but I know that fear cannot cast love out of the window. Now before March 4, 2015 – I would have maybe agreed that it did. But on that night – which was just an ordinary night – I had a dream. It was a weird dream – I was a child and flying over some green hills in what I guess was heaven-like with a little boy child who i have no idea who is (yes, yes I am getting somewhere give me a second – I am long winded – it is my nature!) – I was in my dream but had no awareness of self that I was there but was seeing it – but when I woke up, I had this feeling of love that was so intense…it was exactly like the opposite of fear – my heart was pounding like it was scared but I was not afraid – I was empowered – I have never felt anything like it and can’t even describe it other than it is as intense as fear in the opposite way – I guess I thought true love would be more mushy or something but it was INTENSE – just like fear but even more INTENSE. I could have been beaten and tortured and still loved with that feeling – it was that strong. So I believe, love does conquer fear. Love is a part of fear. Fear segregated off because it did not understand love…but when the terror originates in it’s dread, just imagine love as stronger in the opposite way – it’s the only way I can describe it. It was the most powerful emotion I have ever felt but because of that, I can write and say that love does conquer fear. The feeling was so intense it stayed with me for three days before it wore off. It was almost too much but in a great way – hard to explain but HG, regardless of what you choose, thank you for what you have done. If I have ever offended you, please forgive me. You are deeply respected and loved in my book 😉

  4. new student here. HG’s writings remind me of a dashing character across the pond that i was close to for years. in hindsight,that might have meant trading a medium for a higher.
    good thing, distance.

        1. How they sigh on my name always. Yes BloodandThunder, I do have an idea. I’d like to explore your thoughts.

          1. Very funny CJ, I detect a challenge? It was nice to hear/read from you. Cheers to HG’S 1million. A glass of Champ is in the making.

          2. Perhaps a challange could interesting?!!
            Are you up for Leilani???

            Ohh B&T….. do i detect some interest from your way too???

            I just jave 1 quetion…… how to create a challange worthy of a formidable challanger….. but also appropriate enough to be successfull in moderation also hahahahaha
            Thoughts???

            Oh this could really be very interesting indeed!!!! 😉

            And of couse….. Cheers HG!!!

          3. CJ, the challenge may surpass our dimension. Cheers with ma Australian lobster tails and a glass of Champ for HG at the Moonshadows in Malibu before my flight. Care to join me?

          4. Nope…… no criticisms…… lover not a fighter here!!!!! Just have another valuable issue i need to give my full attention at this present moment!!!!

            Most certainly happy to reschedule??!!

  5. H G..Thank you for posting this. It has enlightened me to how things all began with my ex. Later I will send you his mother’s traits and how he responds to her as an adult. I’m interested to see similarities. I will never lose my feelings of empathy for others. I feel like we are in a feeding frenzy, you feeding me knowledge and strength and I feeding you with compliments and gratefulness. 😊

  6. I had a flashback to my own childhood when I read this.

    I am not surprised you excelled in English HG, your talent for the written and spoken word are second to none. I too excelled in English in school.

    I remember bringing home a test once. I got 98 per cent. I was so pleased with my mark, like you HG, it was the top of the class.

    I showed my dad. He looked at it and said, “Excellent work, but would you mind telling me where the remaining two per cent is?”

    I made sure he never had the chance to say that to me ever again.

      1. A girl never tells where she hides the bodies, HG, you know that!

        In all seriousness though, both my parents lavished praise upon me. Of all my siblings, I am the Golden Child. The more I excelled, the more the praise flowed forth.

        I made it my mission in life to ensure my father could never ask me that again. I top each accomplishment with the next in fierce succession.

        That other two per cent…Why, my fury burned it all up.

        1. Why do you think you were the golden child out of your sibling B&T?? What made you stand our and apart from them?? Physical differences?? Intellect??

          I do not doubt whatsoever that your intellegent beyond most, and well…. we have discussed your looks on another of HG’s blog posts lmfao!!! ***CJ falls at B&T’s feet*** hahaha!!!…

          However, how many siblings do you have?? And are your looks a genetic thing??…therefore did they too inherit quite aesthetically pleasing features also??

          I am just curious as to why you in particular were the golden child… the one who your parents lavished the praise onto as compared to your brothers and sisters??

          Cheers B&T…. ALAWAYS a pleasure to catch you here…. you know I love our chats!! hahahaha
          – CJ

      2. CJ – I was the Golden Child because I excelled in everything I did from an early age on. I understood the expectations placed on all of us and repeatedly exceeded them, whereas my siblings did not. There was never any other way it was going to go.

        Yes, good looks run in the family. My brothers are strikingly handsome and my sisters are all quite pretty, though I, of course, remain tops in all areas that count.

        1. Looks, intelligents and wealth is a deadly combination for any narc. I shall share I to am vain. Living in California money doesn’t interest me as long as I had what I needed. I was blessed in the looks department and so far nothing can’t be fixed with fillers, Botox hair extensions and a bit of plastic surgery. I have the diamonds and the shaphires. I drove the BMW and the Convertable Mercedes. I wore nice cloths when I went out.
          None of this is important to me. Once I started to heal I realized what it was all about. Shopping gave me the adrenaline I needed everyday. That same adrenaline was what I lived on growing up. I was always in fear. When I moved out of my moms control I had to reproduce that adrenaline because it was a feeling I could feel!!!!!
          I donated my better cloths to women trying to find jobs. I could no longer put them on it reminded me of all my camilion behaviors. I sold all my diamonds and Rolex. I donated my expensive handbags.
          I am happy in my 3 dollar tank top and designer jeans 🙂 I can’t give up my filler and Botox but I just don’t need the things anymore! This feeling is so incredibly freeing. I would never go back to all my expensive possessions. I actually think HG there will be a time you won’t be interested in matrinarc money. You won’t need it!
          On a side note. My doctors feel my spending and nice items was actually me buying things for my inner child. I don’t no about that one yet.

          1. And I bet your inner beauty radiates even more with you looking fabulous in your $3 tank and jeans. I get the little vices to fight aging, but I have no use for the showy, designer brands. Prooves nothing to me.
            Good for you on transcending!

          2. Hello Soaking it in, your post is very touching and honest. Thank you. External vs internal. Where about are you in Cali?

  7. Hi H.G. 😎 Thank you for sharing something so painful. I can relate in many ways. I too tried very hard to get the approval, recognition and approval from my parents. I’d clean the whole house just to get a minute of their attention or praise. I got the grades in school for a minute of approval. I was invisible as a child unless it was time to tease or torment me. By the 7th grade my invisibility and the rebellion born from RAGE took over and I gave up on me. It was no use. So I made the decision to drop all the acheivers that were my friends because I felt more comfortable and fit in with the stoners and party people. I was stoned every day for the next & years. I walked in the shoes of someone with major Narcissistic tendencies born from the issues at home. My Mom would rage and say the most horrible things to me and about me that are still burned in my memory. I got attention but now it was ALL bad!! I gave her a REASON to shame me!! To smack me.i welcomed it! “Go ahead!! Hit me again”!! (She would) I couldn’t get approval for being good. So I got attention for being bad! I lied from age 14-21 years old to get what I wanted. To go get stoned! Sex drugs n rock roll! I remember feeling powerful. I made my own money from age 11 on.. When I sold pot in high school this also made me feel powerful, popular and important. I was the kid you didn’t want your kid to be around for this stretch of time. At 21 it caught up to me and I admitted myself (whoever that was?) into alcohol and drug treatment. Divorced my first abusive Narc. I do understand the need for approval and lying born from a disapproving rage filled mother. All 3 of my Narcissists had issues with their Mothers much like this scene you described here. I knew they were taking those issues out on me. I dropped the 1sr one when he didn’t support my sobriety. The second one took me 20 years of suffering for his mothers crimes and studying to get the courage and boundaries to leave him. Same thing with the 3rd one. I don’t think I ever quit working for approval/acceptance.. Got sick doing it. I let Joyce Meyer re-parent me like the Mom I never had. A lot of people see her that way. She has been through Hell to at the hands of her monster of a Father and a Mother too ask to save her and she doesn’t mind telling the whole world! I could relate to her because she was abused way worse than me! My Dad didn’t rape me for 13 years and pass me around to strange men! Her teachings saved my kids from having a Mom like I did and I am glad of that! Unfortunately they have a narcissist for a Dad.. There’s always hope for us.. I wish I could have told you how proud I was of you in her place! Not just for your performance, but just for being you! I wish
    Someone would have been there for me to.. That’s what’s happening here now! Better late than never! Right?! I want you to feel the right kind of pride born from something that has substance and meaning knowing that it’s REAL not a lie! What you are doing for us here IS that substance! God causes ALL things to work together for good to those that love him and are called according to Bis purpose. These words comfort me in all of this. Thank you. I hope so thing I say comforts you like you comfort all of us ❤️

  8. I am convinced a narcissist and a codependent is born fr9m abuse I am curious why one goes one way and the other goes the other, thoughts HG?

    1. It is an interesting point and I suspect that some of it is to do with making a decision, conscious or otherwise, as to how to deal with what has happened. To either remain in “victim mode” and keep playing out the scenario again and again since that is what the person only knows, or to fashion the tools to rise above being a victim and become the abuser instead and thus become the narcissist. It may be something to do with the nature of the original abuse, the original abuser and something inherent in the victim as well. I have yet to see anything empirical on this. What are your thoughts CC?

      1. I agree with HG, most on the nature of the abuse. I am a codependant and I thought until I read RR that I had the perfect childhood but according to RR if your parents are not there physically most of the time for you, or emotionally ( busy with their problems) and not make really this pure love connection that a parent has to have with his kid, than this is also abuse. So my parents were very loving but alot abscent due to work or social events ( We each one had a nanny), and also they did not make the connection to us and neither say I love you from my heart.
        WE heard alot, all I do , I do for you which was true. I am not unthankful I had a wonderful childhood ….. but the pure true love was missing. I dont knwo if I can explain myself well.

      2. I know my parents tried very much to show and give us pure true love but somehow they failed because of theier abscences, extremely high expectations, ( we did not get harshly punished when we did not meet, just a raise of eyebrows or a comparison to the other sibiling, or mini silent treatment of two hours ), not so much physical contact ….
        and also the love they did not show each other because I think at the first stages in childhood the love your parents show for each other is somehow reflected on the love they show for you. I think that is how a kid takes it in his mind.

        1. nikitalondon,

          Again replying late in the discussion, but I agree with you 100%. The love parents have (or don’t have) for each other affects how one views relationships forever. We look to parents to guide us…if the relationship between husband and wife is rocky, then all relationships are questionable on whether to proceed is worth the engagement. In short, if parents love each other and are in harmony, they have more time to devote to their children. If they are not, they feed off the other and the children are most times neglected. Each child chooses how to deal with it, but the great lesson to be learned – how to be happy with a partner – is never learned. As history often repeats itself, phoenix must rise above its own ashes…but that would require change from the normal. Even the strongest of the strong struggle with sins of the parents…BUT I have seen some pull-out victorious!

      3. I have been thinking about this concept quite a bit. I have many theories ruminating, at this time. I did think about the original abuser, was he or she powerful and forced admiration from the abused and thus created a desire to be just like them “mom, dad, brother, whoever” or did the original abuser create life threatening fear to the abused?

        As you describe in your book “Chained” your sister and you became two ends of the spectrum, you a narcissist, she a codependent. In this case I wonder if perhaps because you already took the role of power, she naturally fell in place as the opposite, though I have met siblings become both the narcissist type as well. If you had chosen the codependent I wonder if she would then become the narcissist. I also wonder if “mother” didn’t already decide your roles.

        I’m working out my abuse, as it touched physical safety, my abuse enmeshed survival with abuse. Perhaps to survive means to be abused, perhaps I innately feel a predators desire to control and exert his abuse and I need to play out that role for him in order to feel alive, in order to feel real. Perhaps the abuse numbed me deeply and without the abuse I feel nothing. I am not sure, as I said I am working this all out, I do know I did not have the choice to take on the power of my abuser, as I was very small, he was very strong, his power I could not mimic, but perhaps the nature of his abuse is what I took on and in the same way used that nature to continue abuse to myself therefore becoming the abuser to me, I have often said that I have caused my worst pain, no other has been more cruel than I have been to myself.

          1. It was the nightmare I awoke from and escaped my ex that started that healing process Nikitalondon. Thank you for your well wishes. I am far from the codependent who would seek abuse and inflicted self abuse, and now I am now coming to realize created abuse in others, it is true I can make anyone become an “abuser” to me whether they are really one or not. I am in a self love, and reflection state of mind. I can now accept healing and healthy relating to others and I am fascinated at my part of the dance with my ex and my past, how I perceived the world and why I choose the abuse, why I ran or hid from healthy individuals, and most recently how a codependent uses the abuse of another to continue and extend that abuse. I am not sure yet but I feel like I may be tapping into something very unorthodox and uncomfortable. There is a huge difference between a sensitive loving empath and a damaged dysfunctional codependent, not to say either deserves to be abused, but I do believe something needs to be dissected here along with the narcissist. The narcissist and the codependent in my eyes are closely related, they seem to know one another’s language, this is why they are drawn to one another. I know Ross Rosenberg touches on this with his Human Magnet Syndrome, I guess I am wanting go a little deeper like HG has here with the other end of the spectrum. Yes it is a journey indeed!!

          2. What you say is true… I also have thought about empaths which are codependents but really conflictive and hurtful and angry and revengeful… Have read it many many times in FB. I may have another theory but still in thoughts :-). Good luck again with your healing. Faith and believing that it will happen that you will get what you want helps.

          3. Nikitalondon, I am not sure what you mean by…”I also have thought about empaths which are codependents but really conflictive and hurtful and angry and revengeful… ”

            I think I may be misunderstood, I have what I want. I am no longer chained to my “conditioning” I do have to stay aware and make conscience choices daily however the process has become natural to do so over time. I am in a very healthy state in my life, and I am reflecting and dissecting how I became to be a codependent so I can educate others and continue to grow and protect myself from falling in the hands of a predator again.

            It is not enough for me to blame the narcissist/s in my life nor my abusers, it’s flat to me, it’s not whole without looking at myself in that picture, I can’t change the past, I can’t change abusive people, I can change me, there is no healing if I only look at the other person. Incidentally, I am not angry I was abused as a little girl, it should not have happened, and that man was a very sick man, I pray he did not hurt more people however it is likely he did. I am at no fault so I feel no rage, however I believe it was a marker to how I treated myself and allowed others treat me for the rest of my life, that is until now! 🙂

          4. Hi Cc what I was saying is that sometimes I read women or men say there were cod and empatic amd later on in otjer comments they would talk abour revenge and lots of hate. I saw this when I had joined in the beginning some FB groups. People talking about God n calling others horrible names. I dont associate this with empath but with disfuctionaly

          5. I’d also like to add, I made huge leaps and bounds in my recovery from codependency, stumbling onto HG’s blog and books, and to that I am grateful.

      4. Commenting a little late…but I think some children are emotionally more sensitive…

        “Pinocchio: Becoming a Real Boy

        Pinocchio started off as an object (a puppet) with no consciousness. When the Blue Fairy gives him consciousness, Pinocchio wants to be more – he wants to shed his wood and strings to relate with others: to be real. Geppetto encourages Pinocchio that he is loved for who he is and not to let people get to him, but Pinocchio believes he can achieve it. When he returns to Geppetto, he is now a real boy who can relate to others. This is how most children grow up to be emotionally healthy.

        Pinocchio: Becoming a Narcissist

        After the Blue Fairy gives the Narcissist consciousness, the Narcissist wants to become a real boy, too. However, this time, Geppetto is replaced with Stromboli, who sees Pinocchio as an object with strings that he can control. Control does not have to abusive in the sense of physical abuse…it can be neglectful and uneventful. There is no bond to learn love. When Pinocchio tries to become real, he is told that he is not good enough. He is criticized. At night, Pinocchio sees himself as stuck as a wooden puppet with strings and hates it. He starts dreaming about what a real boy is – the real boy that would make Stromboli proud or at the very least, stop being so negative. Rather than focusing on becoming real, he fakes himself out as an image of what he believes is real. Now, Pinocchio sees that he is getting a lot of attention for his fake version of a real boy…and Stromboli does not care as long as the fake real boy acts in accordance to what he needs. Pinocchio is still wooden (an object) and controlled with by strings (false self), but now he is in control of his own strings – not Stromboli or anyone else. This is how the Narcissist is created.”

        If I had to proffer, the co-dependent views the behaviors as “normal” and expects nothing better out of life (as you stated – repeating the abuse over and over) both the empath and narcissist are different, but chose two different roads of how to handle the situation. In similarity, both are keenly aware that something is wrong – the empath decides to feed others (more similar to a co-dependent than a narcissist but with the specific diversion of accepting the lot of cards that this is not how it should be) and narcissist decides to feed the self. Neither received a warning label or a “Hey – if you go this way – this is going to happen…” It is what it is and we are who are…but that is my theory as of late…BUT it may change. I used to hate change…but now I find it normal – for better or for worse, it is me.

  9. I got demonized on another site because they said I “lacked empathy” for Tubby. The moderators would publicly scold me for this. “People who are mentally ill can’t help themselves” was the mantra. So here was this supposed place of healing that regularly tore apart its members. I am grateful to have found this place; HG’s insights have proven true, and are helping people. Who cares what his motivations are?

  10. They made us what we are and everyone else gets to spend eternity paying for it.

    But to be fair you do deserve to be adored and praised HG. You’re not asking for anything you aren’t entitled to.

    If you were…..people wouldn’t be so willing to lavish it upon you.

  11. Hmm, yeah, I noticed a significant delay on my posts(over a day in my case). Wondering about it. It’s hard to have continuity if there is such a delay. I get that you have to review and there is only one of you. Trying to be patient. Thought the delay was from being on the other side of the pond. LOL

  12. Good evening HG .

    I read your post this morning & decided to reflect on it before I commented .

    I honestly think, though I could be wrong that your blog just maybe is as cathartic for you as it is for us .

    It takes a lot to open up , especially to share something so personal .

    I suppose we are all vulnerable .. Now where’s the ” Group Hug ” smiley when you need it . 🙂

  13. This is a very interesting conversation and I am not sure if I am the only one seeing this. HG is in no position to nurture his inner child. He doesn’t no how. I am watching all the empaths on here showing him what should have been done to care for himself. I hope now he can see and maybe things will start to click. I no they have for me.
    I want to make another comment about HG never changing, I don’t believe this but I will say. HG you have tapped into my inner child with what has happened to you. This blog must continue and the silent treatment and disappearing can not be a tool you use. You have put yourself in a great position and the world is watching, don’t pull a narc move when it gets tough. I have been going threw the moves dealing with my inner child and healing her with this blog. You can find the strength and no how to do the same for yourself.

    1. Thank you SII. I can state that the ST will not be used here. There will be delays in responding to and posting all comments form time to time owing to volume and my other commitments,plus I like to read everything that is written and reflect on others. Even if I do not always comment, if there is a delay in posting it is because I have been reflecting on its content and it has given me reason to do so. That has been happening more often as of late. Accordingly, if there is a period of inactivity it is because I am about other things.

  14. This one made me cry HG…I try to understand my Narc, but he keeps discarding me. And thats ok. Im no longer a victim but a volunteer…xo

  15. It has taken me all day long to read this because it just hit so close to home. It was hard to get through. Those 2 words adoration and fear, I know they protected you. You new if your mom was happy with you she was not going to crush you. If you became so ughly no one would obviously be able hurt you. I understand them both but the adoration which was my mothers tool she never adored me. I just did not no it until today. Another area of the child in me I need to fix. The slap in the face, it is the most humiliating action there is. I will never use it. Where you allowed to lash out at your mom in defense of yourself, without punishment?

    1. The very thought of me lashing out against MatriNarc would have amounted to a thought crime and been visited with a swift application of punishment. I have learned to save it. It will find her.

      1. Oh how you were raised like me. The fury is your inner child that is raging because you were not nurtured and were not able to fight back. I no all to well the wrath for raising a hand to cover your face to defend yourself. By the time I was 11 I was running away. After the first couple times my dad would stop me at the street. It’s no wonder we are what we are.
        I am interested in your mothers mother. Was your maternal grandmother a narc? I no you have an uncle and a cousin. I assuming there was a grandmother who was? Do you no hoe many generations have been effected?

        1. My maternal grandma was called Rose. She is dead. She was not a narcissist. Yes I have two uncles on my mother’s side, Uncle Robert who has three children and Uncle Peter who has two children. I know three generations have been affected.

          1. If Rose was not a Narcissist, did she ever try to buffer her daughter’s & Uncle Pete’s behavior with their kids?

  16. Out of sight meant out of range for criticism growing up, most of the time. Does that translate now that when a relationship evolves into that place of contentment and comfort, because the flood and rush of being adored subsides, your subconscious is preparing for unwarranted criticisms and that’s why you pull away, start silent treatments, etc?
    Why is your mother insisting on therapy? Is it solely to hang an inheritance over your head? No wonder your at odds trying to trust the doctors. You probably feel it’s some way for your mother to win one last final critical blow that something is “wrong” and “defective” with you in her twilight years. I feel she’s just a mean and vindictive woman who has no chance of redemption. You on the other hand can still not choose to follow blindly in her path.
    Every once in the while, someone is just a crappy teacher. I have several friends who are educators so I’m not at all saying anything against teachers. I appreciate and know the long hours that go into curriculum planning and teaching. I also know from being married to an administrator, if the top student was at 76% and on a curve, that teacher isn’t conveying what the students need to absorb well enough. Sometimes a teacher has to up their game if a class as a whole is not learning the subject matter.
    I’d like to tell your mom “you get what you get, and you don’t throw a fit”. You did the best with what you’re given.
    Your dad should have soothed the situation by suggesting a parent teacher conference to understand the course of study and why the class as a whole was struggling prior to you being made to feel inferior.
    My daughter goes to a lab school at a major university. One of the few in the country actually. There are many parents who are putting extreme pressure on their children. Some wanting their kids to read at a 7th / 8th grade level when they’re in the 3rd / 4th grade.
    I remember when my ex was still an English and Oral Comm teacher, a father came into a parent teacher conference upset his son got an A-. He demanded to know what his son needed to do to get an A+.
    My ex felt bad for the pressure the student was under from the dad. He told him to lighten up on his son and that he was doing excellent work. The A- may have been due to him just fine tuning his public speaking skills which would come in more time with Oral Comm and doing more speeches during the semester. It’s ok to be under a learning curve. It’s ok to receive constructive criticism and take it to grow and improve. Yeah he would get very frustrated with over zealous parents living vicariously thru their kids.

    1. – Out of sight meant out of range for criticism growing up, most of the time. Does that translate now that when a relationship evolves into that place of contentment and comfort, because the flood and rush of being adored subsides, your subconscious is preparing for unwarranted criticisms and that’s why you pull away, start silent treatments, etc? – That is indeed part of the process. The need to avoid those burning barbs of criticism is paramount and lashing out first or withdrawing are ways of achieving that.
      It is not just MatriNarc who insists on treatment. She does it because she has to control me. She also knows that I have grown greater than her and she is fearful of the exacting of my revenge and well might she be fearful. You are right. She has no chance of redemption. She deserves none and I will not let her have it.
      Indeed, I later realised that 76% was rather low in the scheme of things (later percentages were far higher) but I was top of the class, not, as I described, that it did me any good with them. Your constructive observations of how the situation might have been handled are useful,not that either of them would have listened to you, for their own self-absorbed reasons.

      1. If your mother is finally recognizing in her later years that what you’ve become is something for her to fear and a replica of herself, do you think part of making you go to therapy is for her to disconnect from you in the respect that “look, my son is diagnosed xxxxx and that is his own doing and he’s responsible for his actions. It’s no reflection on me.” During your childhood, she definitely kept you under her thumb as an extension of her self to the hilt. If you are in therapy for being a Malignant Narcissist Sociopath, oh my, she can’t have that stigma linked to her image and persona. She will just hang you out to dry every chance she gets. It’s appalling.
        As far as the classwork and the level you ranked, I realize it’s all hindsight now and it’s just really unfortunate that it went down that way. Little H.G. deserved way more positive encouragement and praise than he got.

        1. I agree with your analysis Clarece. It is part of her smear campaign because she knows (but will not admit) that the pupil has outgrown and outranked the tutor. Plus it accords with the façade she has created. Thank you for your kind words.

  17. This blog is a prime example of how I learn. I am in no way uneducated. I am a nurse my empathy shines every place. I was not shown any of this. It’s foreign to me. My husband showered this on my kids as they where raised. I do not remember any of this. Why, because I am 100 percent positive I disassociated, I could not even watch him do this to my kids. It was to painful. If he reached for me the physical pain ignited a fury. I had to get out. I did not want my kids to see love and pain. Disassociation was my weapon, . So as I read this I am forced to learn things that where not given to me by the normal and see what was taken and why. You can’t get this in therapy! Thank you to everyone who pours out what is hidden and to you HG for allowing a little vulnerability within yourself for us. That can’t be easy. If this compliment, from my heart, that feels very little, to yours, doesn’t move you a tiny bit, then keep on working a little bit harder!
    By the way, I have not given my narc a single thought in 3 months. When I think about it, my mind is spent on a much greater Narc, you. I have not decided, am I getting better or worse 🙂

  18. I agree with you Cat1520, in a toxic parental relationship love, affection, encouragement and support are often inconsistent and not unconditional as they should be.

    The way HG portrays his mother suggests to me that she was emotionally absent in her relationships, particularly with her children. The effect of this on a child’s sense of self is devastating and has profound effects in terms of a child’s attachment.

    I was brought up in a household where my father was emotionally unavailable and highly critical and whilst my mother did her best to compensate for this she was overwhelmed and exhausted. She failed to protect me and I believe that this ultimately led to my developing a strong sense of over responsibility. Wanting to protect my mother and my sisters from my father’s harsh criticism and to save my dad from himself.

    It is no wonder that HG is himself emotionally unavailable and has in reaction to his mother’s parenting developed a need for excessive praise and a sense of under responsibility for his behaviour and actions.

    We are the antithesis of each other HG, but both products of the dysfunctional childhood we had. I feel your pain and I thank you and applaud you for being so open and vulnerable in this piece. I hope that facing your demons in this way brings you self awareness and healing.

    I totally understand K’s skepticism about your ability to change. As she points out those with NPD rarely genuinely want to change. However I share Lucky Otter’s optimism and believe where there is life there is hope and maybe HG you could be the one to lead the way and set an example for all the other narcs out there. If nothing else it would be a fantastic book and a great opportunity for adoration.

    I continue to watch your progress with fascination and hope that you will find
    serenity and understanding and ultimately a reconciliation with your past.

  19. Excellent work 🙂 HG I would give you an an A ++, very well done and timely as usual. I would have to agree with lucky otter in that I can also see a greater introspection developing and being ever so often casually offered along side of your other works. I would suspect that most of these very obvious changes of writing styles are yes, very obviously coming from within you, but these very personal insights into you that we are being offered so graciously, possibly some of this… could we… put down to being helped along at all would you say by the good DR.’s “methods of madness” questioning as well. are their outside forced perspectives” so to speak over time having that effect naturally do you think or are you giving yourself on your own you feel, your own permission now and it has nothing to do really with them per say. are they causing this or helping this to be possible at this particular time for you do you think.You admitted avoiding thinking much about the past is the word of the day every day and we all know that most N’s avoid looking inward to seek any why’s regarding much of anything to do with their past and how it could possibly help their future. I would also assume that like myself, many would give you an A++ on your writing style and topics and volume of works alone. you are very well read as well I can see as we used to say, which usually denotes a secondary education background at the least.. I would Imagine your range of tastes and interest vast. The lesser N’s and mid range seem to read and retain and listen only enough to impress the intended audience with the plausibility factor, where as greater seem to absorb more. They are therefore In my opinion capable of greater introspection and so you should very well be by those so called medical standards exactly where they think you are supposed to be, right now and becoming more introspective, or feeling more at ease to be able to if that be the case and so, as well you appear, but are they by their standards…or yours…are you progressing or excelling by their standards, or even your own I would be interested to know, or would they ever say? So they say this introspection that happens along side real therapy over a long enough time & or the agreeing to “reign yourselves in” for the good of the family unit, and the “bigger picture” as well so to speak, they say that entering into this type of agreement is rare and usually is only preceded by a “true” life crisis… a hitting of a real rock bottom of sorts first…this type of agreement that you have I am assuming that if that be true for you too, that yours took place for you a while back…hence the manditorially agreed to therapy and this sight being up and running since Oct 2015. I am assuming that this site is also helping you in ways I can and can not imagine. Same goes for us. Please keep up the great writing, learning, reading, teaching and yes…I wish you some healing too…but at a pace… good for you…blessings HG…thank you very much for this post X’s 🙂

    1. Hello EBS, thank you for your kind observations and comments. Yes I love to absorb knowledge. I am always learning, honing and sharpening and I recognise your role and all of the other commentators’ roles in this ongoing process. My education went beyond secondary. I went to post-graduate level before the lure of the working world and it fuel appliances caught my eye and drew me towards them. It is interesting that you note a greater degree of introspection. It is often late at night when they come to haunt me and this is when they try to cause me to look inwardly. I opted to write to purge them and keep them at bay by speaking of myself and my operations, but in so doing and with the repeated application of the good doctors I find that there are times when this introspection does come about. It is caused more by the act of writing now, as opposed to the manifestation of an external agent, although they have not yet been banished. They still come. Perhaps one day I will banish them. I shall of course continue to write and I hope that you will continue to read and contribute.

  20. I agree with Lucky Otter that I have seen the change and how you are so much more reflective over the last several months. I also agree that the more you are able to open up, the more fuel you will receive from all of us empaths with which you have filled your life. You will find that you no longer have to trick, seduce and discard people, constantly spending effort seeking out new fuel. We will love and support you for who you really are – not who you pretend to be. As you gain new sources of fuel, they won’t be bc you need to replace the old, but just new – added on to what you already have.

  21. K, about the comments (I couldn’t reply directly to your comment)–HG’s held my longer ones many times. Eventually they show up, usually with a well thought out reply. I thought it was weird at first too but I’m used to it now. There’s actually nothing fishy about it.

    1. Oh I’ve experienced the delayed release with HG quite a few times already. I don’t think it’s fishy and certainly not sinister (as he put it). But I would absolutely not put it past him to indulge in a bit of wind uppery. However, my accusation was tongue in cheek although he didn’t seem to take it that way, sensitive chap that he is.

      I look forward to a well thought out response then (still not posted). To that post and another question that is still dangling.

      1. I could tell you were being tongue in cheek, I can also see HG’s sensitivity (all Ns are hypersensitive whether they admit it or not). But most of us are too, which is part of the attraction, I guess.
        Anyway, be patient, your replies should show up soon. I trust HG, because he’s following his five rules, whatever those are. He’s holding himself to certain standards here.

  22. I’m sorry you went through this in your childhood, particularly a don with his mother and an ineffective father. This is supposed to be where you first learn love and you learned it was conditional. I did too, though not in such a harsh manner. It took a really long time for me to stop equating Love with what I could do. The first time I realized it, I was in my 20s and in therapy. In my 30s it really happened. I looked at my resume, a kick ass one, and cried. Icried out in tears, this is not me. I’m still finding me. The beast you reference is not the beast you think, and I hope, I so hope you understand someday that you are a slave to fuel, and only you can free yourself from it. That work is hard, so so hard and commendable. I’ve recently started weaning myself off positive reinforcement from others, the need for external validation all the time. It still is a journey for me. And, to echo the other folks here, you could be the best kick ass narcissistic sociopath to recover and tell the other side. A rarity, a gem. You give hope to others, without intending to….please continue. Like boot camp, it hurts, but the pain in worth it. I have to continuously remind myself that all the time, while currently on my journey. Peace to you, dear writer.

    1. Hello IG thank you for sharing your post. What was it that happened when you were in your 30s that made you realise that the content of your resume was not who you actually were. I agree that it can be seen that I am a slave to the fuel, but I am the controlling one. I know how to get that fuel, I know how to bring it forth and I become better and better at it. I therefore dictate its provision. I do realise though that my need for it has me chained to it and the appliances that provide it for me and this isnot something I like at all. Nevertheless, I have to have the fuel and therefore I have accepted that this is the arrangement that must be in place in order to allow me to exist and achieve what I need to achieve.
      I will continue with this work though IG and I appreciate your sentiments in that regard.

      1. Hi HG,
        Thank you for responding and I apologize for my impatience. I thought I had offended and glad that is not the case. I am curious why you are curious. And, I am trying to recall what it was specifically. I think perhaps all that therapy sunk in eventually and the seeds planted in therapy finally bloomed. What I do know is that I don’t get that rush anymore from accomplishments–yes, it was a rush, like fuel indeed. I get a little bump, but not a big one. I cannot look at my CV any more(though I still get a little pride when asked for it–hehe–inner narc, yes). Perhaps, and this is so not a pity play (not that it would work, haha) is after the passing of the sources of this mindset in me (my parents), though honestly I do not think they meant to foster it within me and that is key to my forgiveness. Perhaps it was that too, forgiveness.
        Best,
        Indy

        1. I like to learn so I understand. No you hadn’t offended me. I look forward to your update when you recall what it was that caused the specific realisation.

      2. Oh, yes, regarding fuel…”Nevertheless, I have to have the fuel and therefore I have accepted that this is the arrangement that must be in place in order to allow me to exist and achieve what I need to achieve.”
        Replace that word “fuel” with cocaine. You know what I am getting at. It is doable. I am working on my addiction to fuel, albeit in a different form and less so with appliances. And, lets be honest, codependents, empaths, people with different views on love…etc, live on “fuel”, the difference is that we do not see others as objects, but as people.

        So, this fuel thing, HG. Ready to start some 12-step Fuelaholics Anon…. Oh, wait…it already exists….in the US it is called CODA. (playfully said though serious intent).

        Ok Ok, I hear you say…but I don’t have a problem and I have accepted this fact that I “need fuel”. I suggest you change “need” to “want” and see how it feels to you. Because, this is really what it is about, right? We need oxygen, we need food…we want attention, we want positive reinforcement, we want “fuel” from an appliance. Does it always have to be an object/appliance?

        My intent is not to piss you off, but to challenge.

        Respectfully,
        Indy

        1. I need and want fuel. I need it to power me, power the construct and keep the creature at bay. I want it because I like the way it makes me feel. I like gathering it.

          You do not piss me off, not at all. Feel free to keep challenging me, I welcome it.

  23. Roger & HG , my thoughts on this are that we all have to accept that not everyone is going to like or love us . But when the people in your life should love you unconditionally don’t love you unconditionally then of course all sorts of problems can start in early life or parents fail to protect their kids . I loved my narc even with all his horrible stuff, I didn’t know he was a narc . I would have described him as an insecure , commitment phobic , who felt not good enough and put up boundaries to stop him and I getting closer as he was scared of getting hurt . But I believed he must like me or he wouldn’t keep seeing me or getting back with me if he didn’t like me. Now I know the narc thing , well words can’t describe how that makes me feel. So here’s my point when people like me are sticking around when they have been treated badly they are there because they love that person warts and all. Did I say lots of complimentary things about him probably not , I did occasionally but I didn’t know that saying things would mean that much to him. Me staying with him through all his nonsense and crying and being upset . He knew that I cared for him and loved him but all he did was abuse it. If I abused somebody in that way and they stuck by me I would feel that they loved me. Is it about saying complimentary things all the time to each other ? Yes in away it is and I did that too but not constantly . If narcs are not connected to their emotions they are never going to feel anything that false self has to let go and the real self has to just be. When my narc was doing his narc stuff it didn’t make him more attractive at all and it may have made him feel powerful to make me feel like shit but what good is any of this doing in the end ? I just don’t know what narcs want the more you love them , forgive them , stick with them, put up with all their crap and they still don’t connect with you , and you bore them . Being a manipulating , liar , cheat , asshole is not winning . HG this narc thing has served you well . I would ask you ? Has it ? Really ? You think you couldn’t have got a decent job or a nice loving attractive woman or been a talented writer without being a narc , that’s not true and your logic knows it. I don’t know why your in therapy but for someone like you to be in therapy there is a big reason because you would never have done that . So how is this narc stuff really working for you . Don’t you think you’ve let your mother win for long enough is she going to have this over you until you die . I feel like I just want to go and talk to mine every single day and just say to him , just stop all this crazy nonsense you don’t need it , you are enough just as you are to be loved and get along in the world and be happy . But no I’m sure mine will go to the grave thinking he showed them all. That will be the early grave that he drinks himself into

    1. Lisa, it is interesting how you describe how you regarded your narcissist before you had any awareness as you describe him as a commitmentphobe. Think how many other people are completely unaware of what they have become entangled with and how they will attribute the “unusual” behaviour of their narcissist to something else altogether, missing the real problem. How many people do you think do that? I suspect hundreds of millions and this is why we are able to continue doing what we do, because so few people actually see it and understand it.
      Yes you are right. I would have been able to obtain a good job because I am bright and hard-working. But I got a better job. Yes am a good writer, I was an excellent athlete when younger, an excellent footballer and so on and so forth and all of these attributes would have garnered fuel for me but not enough. That is why I have had to be what I am, to ensure to got the fuel to preserve what I am. This “this narc thing” as you describe it has served me well. It has powered me, it has elevated me and it has prevented my obliteration.
      I am in therapy as I have mentioned before because I have agreed to undergo it at the compulsion of my family yo enable me to complete a bigger end game that I wish to achieve.
      No MatriNarc is not going to have this over to me until the day I die. She will have her comeuppance, I shall see to that.
      Your sentiment towards your narcissist is entirely understandable but to us we DO need this apparent “craziness” this is the methodology that we have to adopt in order to exist. You do not need it because you have been created differently. Thank you for your observations Lisa.

    2. I did that with CN, showed him acceptance, that he didn’t need to change, just allow me to accept him. He cannot do it, he is unable to accept what he is and thusly, unable to allow me to love him for who he is. No amount love can change someone, change can only come if the person needs or wants it. Change cannot be forced. It is emotionally tormenting and why we need to work away with love In our heart, not anger, Lisa.

  24. I found this post to be very enlightening in understanding the link between adoration and power and criticism and the interplay between these dynamics not only for you but me as well. I had a critical Mother who I could never quite please either. Adoration feels really, really good. I have developed a therapeutic visual technique for myself that I embrace when I find that hole in my soul starting to rip open. It is my younger self wrapped in my own arms and being praised and seen for her self. And where she is always enough. I adore your willingness to be vulnerable enough to share this. Thank you.

  25. HG, your mother and mine, though they live on different sides of the Atlantic, are THE SAME PERSON. You came top with 76% and she accused your father of having placed you in a class of idiots (because when something doesn’t go her way, it CANNOT be her fault).

  26. Insightful article HG. Thank you for sharing it with us, your readers, I dare say it should garner you much adoration and fuel. To feel your power surge within.
    Yes, praise for a child is paramount. Even as an adult, when those whom we admire chide us, disparage. Berate and belittle us for who we are and what we say and do. Then we do lose something inside us. An aspect of self esteem. But, always remember, you do not need that from others, when you know what you are and what you can do. Adoration is just acknowledgment. Of your own truth. Being adored for the sake of being adored, is not the same as being adored because others feel an emotional connection to adore you. The way you desire it is forced and compulsory. Perhaps, try to allow it to flow naturally, unbeckoned and unbridled. Let people, adore you of their own accord and then savour the fuel that comes from genuine uncoerced adoration. To be liked and loved because they want to, not because you desire or demand it from them.
    Adoration should be of free will. Not solicited or fear induced or for the sake of pity. To love for the sake of love, alone. As, empaths love. Empaths give you fuel, in The form of adoration. Which equates to love for you.
    There’s much adoration for you in this “arena” as you call it. There must be equal , if not more, in your life outside of here.
    If you could do A ratio, what would one comment of unsolicited Adoration or praise from our mother be worth? As, it is not so much about the adoration of strangers or receiving adoration, as your article showed your sister willingly offered to you. It is in the need to acquire the adoration of One, and for you in that loss, you need the adoration of many.
    Do you think the completion of your therapy will provide you with the adoration or praise or acceptance of that ONE? And if so, will it be enough following that receipt?

    1. I need the adoration. Let it flow forced or otherwise, just so long as it flows.
      I assume you meant “your mother” as for an instant I thought my sister was trying to be clever and had just inadvertently revealed herself until I read the comment again.
      In terms of the worth of my mother’s adoration, in respect of when? Now or when I was say 11 years old?
      When you write “One” do you mean in the context of an intimate partner?

      1. Yes. It was to read your mother, not ours. The worth of her adoration. As an adult, not as a child. I am referring to the present.
        When I write the one…I am referring to your mother. If you were stood in a room with twenty women to one side, all of whom you know will plié you with needed adoration on cue, it flowing from them to you. Then On the other side of the room, stands your mother. Quiet and somber. She tells the masses of adoration On the other side of the room to be silent, with the wave of her hand. They fall silent and become darkened. As a spotlight reflects upon her. She looks directly at you and says, I am sorry son, I have always been proud of you and I love you. The spotlight, then Switches back to the din of the adoring mass and…what do feel. In regards to fuel..from both sides of the room, In such a scenario? What is the correlation between fuel received?

        1. Her comment is not enough. It is empty and there is no emotion behind it. She does not mean those things. There is only one thing I have to hear her say.
          I would take the masses. Their adoration is genuine, desired and edifying.

          1. So, one admission from her would appease you. Something along the lines of it was her fault and you were not to blame? The concept of genuine is subjective. But, as long as you perceive it as such, that is what matters. Edifying and desired by you, indeed. Kind of like CNs adoration of me was genuine too..oh right, it wasn’t though, was it?

      2. Can you clarify Hg. Are you specifically in therapy for Narcissism or were you requested to attend therapy otherwise and while there, your Narcissism has been addressed? I am not referring to your inheritance, I am referring to why your mother wanted you in therapy? I feel like Narcissism was simply a by product explored through therapy. Correct me if am mistaken?

        1. I was subjected to it as a consequence of my behaviour. That was what they were so desperate to address. MatriNarc wanted me there to further her own agenda.

          1. You able not permitted to disclose the behaviour for which you received said consequence? I see your point when worded that way..a child is consequenced for their behaviour….do you feel like a child still when up against your mother? She will never admit fear or defeat or wrong doing will she, Hg?

          2. Well, my mother never did before she passed HG and to be honest, trying to get that closure from her never made me feel better.

  27. Another great article HG as I come to a better understanding of all of this. My N was shamed as a child and has similar traits as yours. He wants to be adored and doesn’t care if the fuel is negative or positive. He thrives on having two women fight over him. I have come to observe the subtly of it all back when I didn’t know better. How he would draw her to his lap in front of me stirring up the jealousy…. Then the excuses would happen.

  28. Yes I adored my narc in the beginning… As time wore on though, I dreaded his presence. I used to look at the clock as I knew he would be home from work soon and this horrid feeling would wash over me and my clients would always point out at how unhappy I looked and that I never looked like that before he appeared in my life. Once I had him out of my house forever that stressed out look went away and I got better even though I was still so sad. I do not understand how some women would want to keep trying to please these defective men? I gave up when I knew nothing I did or said made things better and if anything I said or did helped it never lasted long, a day or two at best then the nut would be back at it what he did best which was wreak havoc. Man I feel sorry for the next women in line. The other day I was flipping through the newspaper and saw the obituary page and thought to myself…If I spotted his name there I don’t think I would bat an eye or care in anyway, I actually think I would feel relief. Cold but true.

    1. most days I adore myself. I work at it. To love another, adore another, I believe it must start with oneself.

      I finally admitted that perhaps I did not adore/love the little me in me and this is how the Narc could get to me. I love me more today then I did two months ago and I am fine in my sandbox alone. With me, myself and I in there too, I am very busy. 😉

        1. Well, it must have been a long time coming for myself as everyone was so shocked I fell on this harsh knife. I guess it was time for it to surface to heal what I have buried so long ago.
          So the narc was out to destroy me and all he did was allow me to be better, stronger and my cup runneth over with love. He lost the war. What a stupid weak man. Did he not see who was in front of him. Perhaps he did and it scared him to death.
          ROARRRRRRR

          1. Yes, Steevaiann, mine did the same, he allowed me to understand and see things more clearly regarding the behaviours of others. It only serves to make us stringer and wiser.

  29. This is shattering beyond belief. Your mom sidestepped your hug. I’d offer you one if you wanted to accept it. I know it isn’t the same and that you hate people touching you (me too). The offer is there. You have established your writing prowess. I adore that you are able to articulate your words in a way that spellbinds me every time I read them. I gather you were a professional athlete at one point in time? You have great taste in music ;). There is so much to adore that you don’t need to embelish. She doesn’t have the power anymore.

    After the incident, I wanted to be invisible.

    1. I will likely say more. You already wrote a post titled I wanna be adored. Great song btw. Stone Roses is coming or has come out with something new.

    2. Pps and you speak legalese…Your wounds go farther back than mine. I wish our child selves could meet each other. Wishes are futile.

    3. Thank you 1Jaded. I am delighted you concur with my taste in music. Guess what,I like yours too. Your comments are most appreciated and I hope you won’t mind if I accept your praise and adulation in lieu of the offered hug, although your sentiment is noted and appreciated.
      Why do you say she doesn’t have the power anymore? I presume you mean MatriNarc?
      Which incident are you referring to?

      1. What is your taste in music HG? I missed it?

        I listened to those songs and actually they are too disturbing to feel anything but the energy to quickly get to the exit switch. I appreciate the lyrics, but for real? I feel a seizure coming on.

      2. Im not surprised because I have great taste in music. Who wouldn’t love it? Same with my taste in movies. My comments are like any other who praises you. Hugs you nonetheless. Now that the sarc is out of the way.

        Yes. Matrinarc. You have established yourself in your own right. Why do you let her hold that power? So you don’t get a billion dollars when she goes. You have your own money. It isn’t about the money. I get it. Give her a taste of what she gives you. She will find it bitter, I suspect. She will scoff but it will burn. I’m conflicted to write that bc you won’t give her that bitter taste. She is your mom and who does that? In that respect, you are just like we are. *ducks bc i broke a rule* Not criticism. Truth.

        The incident is how Jaded was born. I wanted to be invisible. I never wanted to be adored and find it perplexing.. Wish wish…got my wish. She stepped up until she didn’t. We exist with tacit understanding. That’s all…at least for now.

        1. You have marvellous tastes in music and film, I cannot believe we like so much that is the same, but I guess that is why we are meant to be together isn’t it?

          It is about ensuring she admits what she did.

          Duly noted, I look forward to reading more. At your convenience of course.

      3. You did ignore and that’s aok. People said what I did in an eloquent matter rather than my word puke.

        Regarding admittance to your club . I never filled out an application…and if what i did to classmate makes me a candidate regardless, i live 3 miles from train tracks. Plus, I can’t say that I love someone’s music just because they do. That has to be a disqualification point, right? Right?

      4. I can’t do Spears like I couldn’t do smooth jazz.

        We will be together forever…even after you disengage me.

        I would love to help her admit it if that would release the creature from within you. Please let me help??

        I’ve let out pieces and bits. If you missed it, that can only benefit both of us. The anniversary of what brought jaded out has passed, so the feeling ebbs..just a bit.

        Regarding the club, Jaded shows the promise..or maybe I do and don’t want to admit it. When I stand up for myself, it’s never pretty bc people don’t expect it.

        In non blog life, you would pass on by. As much as I enjoy your blog…I wish they would have too. That wish didn’t come true.

  30. I think you mean “I wanna be adored” if you are adding to your list of cultural references in your titles. My narc loved that song when I played it to him. A bit of a narc anthem really.
    Have you heard “Liar” by The Rollins Band? I have often wondered about Henry.

    1. Hello K, where have you been hiding? Yes “I wanna be adored” did cross my mind but I thought it didn’t fit with the “being proper” element of this article if you understand what I mean. No I have not heard “Liar” I know about Henry and his band, I will need to look that one up.

      1. Oh forget ‘proper’ where there’s a cultural reference to be made 🙂 You’ll like “Liar”. It’s pretty straight to the point.

        1. Oh my god I just checked out Liar! Ahahahaha. That is oh so very spot on i would guess… HG??!! lol. It was very ineresting indeed!! (Side note however… The fella in the film clip… Did he have a role as a white supremisist in Sons of Anarchy??!). Cheers K

      2. You must look it up. It’s probably the most convincing and creepiest song about malignant NPD ever. I wrote a post about it once. Watch it and tell us what you think.

      3. I think it’s more straight psycho/sociopath than NPD in particular. Henry doesn’t come over as particularly needy in it 🙂 Where ” I wanna be adored” is a narc anthem, “Liar” is more of a psychopath’s manifesto. But HG’s been diagnosed as a sociopath as well and this is very often the case with the malignant variety of N it seems.

  31. I can picture that very sweet proud boy in my mind! The thought of him being crushed when that prideful look and admiration did not come from the one person who should of showed pride in all his accomplishments! His mother! To be able to scoop him up and hold him and tell him how proud I am of him is all I can think about at this moment! It is time for that sweet young boy to let go, to realize it was not him that failed or did not do well enough, it was her! I truly believe if you could let this go( with the help of your Drs) you would soon realize that you are amazing , intelligent, funny, but most of all you should have pride in yourself for all you have accomplished and you will find that love that you so desperately seek love for yourself! When you do that you will be able to accept and give love to others!! Bless you HG! Xxx

    1. What a beautiful message FM1T
      Almost had tears.. Really nice.
      You are right letting go works miracles and one cam find a brand new dimension 🌷🌷

  32. H.G., this is a breakthrough!!! I am so proud of you!!! And I am so sorry for what you went through in the hands of your mother. I ache for that little boy. I feel your pain because I too, have a narcissistic father. Nothing I did was ever good enough. It’s only in the last few years that I learned to understand myself — why I got attracted to my narc. I was trying to work out my daddy issues through my narc; trying to get that approval. I outstayed my welcome with my narc to try and make him see that I was “good enough.” Through therapy and going through the pain of discard, I realized that I am now a self-sufficient adult who has value and I no longer need his/their approval. The dawning of that realization was most liberating! And I pray that you, too, will experience that liberation in the not too distant future! Hugs!

  33. HG, reading this breaks my heart, but at the same time my heart sings because even in the few months since I discovered your blog, you have come such a long way. Your posts are becoming more introspective, probing more into your own painful childhood, looking for roots and reasons. You’re making connections and beginning to explore areas you probably stayed far away from before. This is progress, and it’s showing both in these posts and in other ways too.

    Just think: you will be so adored if (I really should say when) you finally heal from this disorder that you won’t know what to do with all that adoration, but by then you’ll know what real self love is anyway and won’t need all that fuel anymore.

    1. Nah, not gonna happen. Narcs are pretty unresponsive to treatment it seems, unless they really, really want to be healed and they generally don’t. You’ll find that reiterated by much of what is written by qualified therapists with narc experience. Even the way HG writes about the Good Dr sessions strongly indicates it’a all a game to him and most narcs/psychopaths simply hone their skills when they gain a reasonable grasp of what they are and why they do what they do.

      The optimism of many of commentators is heart warming for sure but we are supposed to be learning ourselves, no? It seems that many commentators just don’t hear, or won’t accept, what the vast majority of HGs post are telling us. That optimism is, very unfortunately, the very thing that keeps us hooked when the reality is hopeless but we don’t want it to be. How many stories or comments on sites relating to narcissism/sociopathy tell of the narc that came good? I’ve not seen a single one. The odd Borderline case here and there maybe but not the narcopaths. I’m not saying it can’t happen but the data indicates that the chance of it happening is remote. His way works for him. Why learn to cook when people keep handing him gourmet dishes and are thrilled when he likes them? Not so HG?

      And by the way HG, why are you still not releasing my more extended reply to Roger? Do you do this to wind me up or what?

      1. No, I read everything and I should imagine your extended reply has only been with me for a couple of hours. Even someone as brilliant as me has to have dinner. It will appear once I have read it and considered it.

      2. Hmm, it was written 1 1/4 hrs before the one you have just released. Hmm, again.

        Anyway, what about my question to you above? For your readers – do you want to change, be healed, be a new you, HG?

        1. Shorter comments or ones which don’t need a lot of consideration are posted quicker even if they arrived later. So you can hmmm all you wish but there’s nothing sinister in it, it will appear once I’ve considered it.

        1. For the past few days I thought that some bees had taken up residence in the cottage where I am staying but I realise now K it was you continuing to hmmmm for all that time. If my memory serves me correctly, you asked did I want to change. At this stage I do not see why I should, but I have noticed a difference in my outlook when I compare now to when I began the work with the good doctors. Whether there will be a further difference remains to be seen. Whether that further difference, if it happens will cause my outlook to alter concerning changing, again remains to be seen.What I do know is that I am prepared to continued with this work.

      3. K, I assure you it isn’t just your posts, both of mine are still in moderation as well, I tend to write a fair amount, I intentionally made replies shorter to alleviate a longer moderation period. I assure you your other post will be posted soon and before mine. HG has a system of moderation.

      4. K, I always say I’m either gullible idiot or HG is… somehow different. I’ aware of the bleakness of the prognosis for NPD , and also that narcs play all kinds of mind games and in HG’s case, well–he gets to be the star of his own romantic drama about a tormented and broken man who finds his heart and feelings again with the help of a harem of empathic females. It’s a movie worthy of a case of Kleenex. HG may just be a superb “actor” here on his blog. Common sense would tell you that. To say he’s not doing this seems like such a stupid thing to say, when obviously he has everyone fooled.

        But something tells me he’s being honest. I can’t put my finger on why and maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t think I am. My feeling is he started doing this for the fuel, and only for the fuel, and while there’s no doubt a lot of that, something else is there now–at the very least a curiosity at about who he really is.

        So all we can do is just watch now and see what happens, and maybe that tearjerker HG’s the star of has a happy ending after all. Or maybe it doesn’t. But whatever the outcome, it’s alright because HG is on this blog where no one will be harmed by his games, if that’s in fact what he’s doing. Maybe disappointed if it turns out he was just acting a part but not much more than that.

      5. Nikita, that you and LO think otherwise is absolutely fine – really. And that neither I nor you have the truth (as there is none? Not sure about that) is a given since we don’t know enough about the subject matter. I’d like to take this opportunity to say that I kind of take it as read that much of what is written by commentators on this blog are opinions, not truths. I intend what I write to be understood no differently. However, we are invited to debate which entails making points which will almost certainly invite differences of opinion. That’s ok isn’t it?

        From now on, just insert “In my opinion” at the beginning of everything I contribute here if that helps to avoid confusion on this issue 🙂

        I don’t believe in God b the way. Does that mean I don’t believe in you HG?

      6. Oh relief! It would disappoint your readers no end if you were to suddenly dissappear in a puff of logic. Better pop the kettle on and make a piping hot cup of good strong Northern tea. And watch out on those zebra crossings (HGTTGalaxy).

  34. Hi HG, I started a comment on this post and it disappeared so apologises if it appears half finished or twice . This was a hard read. May I ask if your parents are alive and do you have a relationship with them ? All of the people following this blog and commenting loved their narcissist with everything they had and probably loved them too much as you know only too well, overlooking a lot of despicable behaviour due to that love and loyalty , but it is never enough? The boredom I can understand ( I believe a lot of narcs suffer with ADD) but regardless the empty , void , boredom that then leads to irritable feelings is I believe due to the disaccosiation to true emotions ? But you also depise the weakness you see in the women that allow you to abuse them ? It’s a no win ? Can you only respect women like your mother that you could not control or manipulate ? But then N’s don’t really like women ? My N it was definately his father that was a narc and he describes how his father treated his mother . He has his father on a pedestal but in reality his father was a tyrant that terrified not only him but the whole family including his mother. My N has never said this to me , this is just my observation . However when he describes things that his father did to his mother which I would now describe as constant devaluation and a hairline trigger temper if the mother even looked in a certain way the whole family would know that the father would then start to kick off. My N’s description of this is love. He says my dad loved my mum so much that’s why he was like this with her. Of course this was not love it was control and fear. My N is either copying his father or there is a genetic link as his brother is also an N I now realise. Or he dissociated at a young age from fear of his father. As a child he had other signs OCD and feelings of boredom. My N idealises his dead narc father. I always read it’s about the mother relationship, maybe my narc thinks all women should behave like his mother did. But his mother was never discarded , another era another generation , no divorce.

    1. My father is dead. My mother is alive. Sometimes the wrong one is taken. It is not a case of liking or disliking women, it is liking or being disappointed with the fuel that has been provided. I would place your money on copying, it is what I did. I saw power when it was wielded and decided to do something about it. By gaining power for myself.

  35. Adoration is the expression of admiration in terms of words of liking alot something about somebody when it refers to skills or virtues this person might have and it is the expression ol love in terms of words of liking alot the person itself.
    I adore how you write, I adore your humor, I adore your courtesy, I adore your blue eyes, I adore to be with you, I adore how you make me feel. When being in love adoration just comes per se. <3

    1. Are you in love Nikita? I am happy for you. You deserev to feel loved by someone. Love is a many splendour thing…..especially when it is returned In the same manner it is received. Like the analogy you made earlier about butterfly and the flower. Or as I always cite…mutuality/ reciprocity.
      There is no harm In Adoring HGs writing and being here In this blog, especially since you feel obliged to him for your own healing. I think others may be confused by your words. Translating it wrongly, as in you love HG. Not what he stands for in Regards to your own recovery. Just a thought. Correct if I am wrong.

      1. Hi Jana. I am in lovce yes 😍 Also with life and with me.. I practice #selflove everyday and there is for HG ALSO OF THIS LOVE. Why not ?? He is not hazardous to my recovery. On the contrary he contributed 😃. Have a nice Sunday. i will soon be off to rollerskating 😃😃

        1. Thank you Nikita, no appreciation and feeling affection for another is not harmful. As you said Hg has helped your recovery. Hope you had fun roller skating.

          1. Hi Jana. Thanks. Yes its very fun. I live in a small city which has a broad park/forest with creeks, river and small ponds and there is a bike and roller skating trail which is lovely to do.
            Hope you are enjoying your vacation.

    2. Indeed it does Nikita!!
      I am hazarding a guess here…. however I am also not 100% sure given a Comment you made to me when I first jumped onto this blog lol!!… Are you female Nikita?? I have no personal opinion or anything either way… I am curious is all 🙂

        1. Haha… i thought so!! I am very glad that you are as your writing has quite the feminine touch to it!! You write wonderfully Nikita. I enjoy reading your comments.
          Cheers,
          CJ x

  36. A question for community discussion arises in me from this particular writing HG. “How does one discern relational ‘encouragement, adoration & support’ in the ‘toxic’ form in comparison to a ‘healthy’ form?” BOTH can produce equal ‘end results’ of incredible self-esteem, character building & personal inspiration. Where does the recipient of this kind of emotional support define the difference between the two so that the “healthy” form prevails?

    1. Thank you Roger, let’s open that up for discussion then,I know of a few commenters who will have useful answers to this question.

    2. Hi Roger
      The questiom is a little bit difficult for me… Because I dont understand how adoration can be toxic?? How does this happen?
      Can you give me an example please of toxic adoration.
      Thanks in advance 😃

    3. I think the difference lies in the context of the relationship from which the adoration emanates. There’s the healthy kind that is part of real love and care from someone who’s agenda is entirely benign or who has no agenda at all beyond supporting the recipient. And then there’s the toxic kind that is all about manipulation and control. Notice how HGs mother’s expectations rose after the first (?) top of the class report from that school so that top of the class was no longer enough – it had become stale. Telling her friends and aquaintances that he was top of the class – again – was no longer gratifying. It had become baseline and simply the way things were supposed to be.

      She no more adored him than she adored herself, him being a mere extension of her after all, and she will have been as hard on herself (privately mind you) as she was on him. HG’s descriptions of his relationship with his mother is a pretty clear illustration of how narcissism breeds narcissism. As an emerging adult he learned to use precisely the same techniques on others that wounded him so badly in his childhood. That’s just what close (ha!) relationships look like to him.

      The recipient simply can’t transform toxic relationship dynamics into healthy ones. They can’t pay attention to the praise and ignore the jab that follows.

      1. Actually, there’s something in what I wrote above that needs correcting (although this post will be meaningless until that something that I wrote above is actually posted). I wrote “And then there’s the toxic kind that is all about manipulation and control.” It goes hand in hand with manipulation and control but the particular toxic dynamic described here is more about adoration of the self rather than the apparent object of adoration. But it’s not genuine adoration of either, it’s just a(nother) way of propping up her self image as superior and special and the adored (HG in this case, an extension of herself) provided a nice little fix in this instance. This kind of ‘adoration’ isn’t real since it isn’t consistent. It isn’t even about mini HG. When children are subjected to this stuff there’s no way they can understand what’s really going on and that it’s not about them. Most of us here failed to grasp that, even as adults, when got close to narcissists.

        So again, where Roger writes “Where does the recipient of this kind of emotional support define the difference between the two so that the “healthy” form prevails?” If you haven’t experienced the healthy form from your parents, it’s almost impossible to differentiate between the two forms since you don’t know what it looks like in comparison. And if you do come across it in relationships with other people then it’s likely to be interpreted through the filter of your own template formed in childhood – and, therefore, misinterpreted. Reforming that template takes a lot of work.

        If you do somehow manage to take the praise and ignore the jabs that follow, then it’s likely that you’re splitting pretty spectacularly (not you Roger) and that is not a healthy solution to the problem. The problem is, there is no healthy solution to that problem. There are survival strategies but once they have taken hold, they backfire horribly when applied in other relationships.

        1. K, your penultimate paragraph is something which Dr E has raised. I don’t know any other way and yet I am condemned for how I operate, that is why I am wary of the world and the intentions of others, why my retaliation must be gotten in first. I do as I do because that is what I know, that is what I am. You see, you describe it as misinterpretation on my part (which I respect your analysis and this is from your perspective) but from my perspective it is about people misinterpreting me, I do what I need to in order to preserve my existence. Do I need to reform the template? Many will say yes I am sure. I know this is what the good doctors have referenced also.

      2. K,
        Thank you for your post. Here it is at last! I had to take time to digest it as it provoked much in me and I had to deal with that before I responded.
        1. When you say she will have been as hard on herself in private, tell me please what you envisage this as manifesting as.
        2. You are correct that I copied her techniques and used them for myself because I saw the power that came with such behaviour and I wanted it.
        3. In respect of your last sentence – They can’t pay attention to the praise and ignore the jab that follows – do you mean that in a healthy relationship that one receives praise but also brickbats and we are unable to handle the latter? Why must brickbats accompany the praise, can praise not exist without them?

      3. Hello HG. It’s been a while. Saw your responses and thought I’d clarify some of the above as you got the wrong end of the stick in a few places. It’s another long one……

      4. First, my responses were to Roger’s post not your words as there had been none on the topic he raised. However, where I talk about misinterpretation I’m saying that if someone has not experienced healthy forms of love, particularly as a child, then if you are lucky enough to receive it in an adult relationship then it can often be misinterpreted as the toxic form. You have said yourself that your default position is to mistrust others, to prevent them from tearing you down. You “know their game” – right? You are entirely self-absorbed, self-centered and are perpetually engaged in a quest to get what you want at the expense of others. You enjoy the sense of power that damaging and even destroying others gives you. In doing so you project your motivations and goals on to others. Their loving gestures are understood as manipulation just as yours are manipulation. Their distress is merely an attempt at emotional blackmail just as yours would be if you were to play the distress card. Good deeds are performed so that you will be forced to reciprocate with interest (although you will outfox the giver, naturally, and thwart them by denying them the returns on their investments – smart boy). So my point is that because you cannot e.g., give selflessly you can’t attribute such genuine generosity to others because that doesn’t map on to your template. You have no choice but to interpret behavior that is an expression of healthy love as something far less healthy it seems; something more like power plays. This equals misinterpretation on your part. I have seen this countless times in my own relationship with a narcissist. Sure, you are misinterpreted (your success relies on it!) but you also misinterpret.
        To your further points…
        1. When you say she will have been as hard on herself in private, tell me please what you envisage this as manifesting as.
        Hard to know since I don’t know your mother but, though she will never reveal this to others, her ‘neediness’ is evident from your descriptions of her. If she is indeed the matrinarc (and I don’t doubt that she is) she will be constantly driven by her neediness; the need for attention, praise etc., just as you are. That neediness will be recognized by her and despised (and God forbid that anyone else will see it!). She’ll consider herself above all that while being a slave to it, just as you are. So if she needs to be seen as as close to perfection as possible, anything she does that she recognizes as imperfect (and she *will* recognize it) will result in very negative judgments of herself. Chances are that no one will see any of that but there will almost certainly be other directed repercussions. Her intolerance of her own imperfection will almost certainly result in her projecting its cause onto someone else. People that are not overly hard on themselves can cope with their imperfections but those that are tend to have a very hard time with that..

        3. In respect of your last sentence – They can’t pay attention to the praise and ignore the jab that follows – do you mean that in a healthy relationship that one receives praise but also brickbats and we are unable to handle the latter? Why must brickbats accompany the praise, can praise not exist without them?
        Of course it can! Jabs don’t follow praise in a healthy relationship but they often can in an unhealthy one. Looking at Roger’s post again, it’s not quite clear to me what he’s asking. He seems to be saying that support, praise etc., whether toxic or not, could potentially have the same positive outcome for the recipient. He then writes, “Where does the recipient of this kind of emotional support define the difference between the two so that the “healthy” form prevails?” I’m saying that if the apparent support/praise comes from a toxic individual then the “healthy” form *cannot* prevail since there is *no* healthy form. It’s impossible to benefit from the good stuff and ignore the bad stuff where they come hand in hand. A person would be suffering from a hefty dose of cognitive dissonance overcome by radical splitting if they managed to do that in fact. If not, then it will result in confusion and disorientation and the net effect will be zero or, more likely, negative. The only solution is to ditch the source of confusion and hold out for someone who *can* provide the healthy form. Distinguishing between the two is fairly easy – the net effect of the healthy form makes you feel good while the net effect of the unhealthy form makes you feel crap, even if it felt good in the moment.

    4. I will offer one opinion. Toxic encouragement is inconsistent, unrelated to the quality of the achievement and used to build someone up just to smash them down. Or used to avoid the work of real parenting and real love which involves telling the truth about how one did in honest and considerate terms. Healthy encouragement is truthful, gives an accurate honest reflection of the achievement (see honesty is key), and is used to help someone, not to seduce or manipulation or destroy..

      HG it pains me to read what you have endured and I see why our adoration is so important.

    5. Hi Roger
      I am pressed for time to reply. But, the question you posed, interested me.
      I know for myself, my mother pushed me continuously as a child and through University to excel. Even though I excelled naturally with High grades. Did I agree with her approach , of course not, but did I understand her approach? Yes and therein lies the key. My mother, as I was aware of as a young child, could not exhibit affection or praise in what I referenced as in a “normal” manner, it often came across as caustic and disapproving. But, underlying that behaviour, I knew my mother was proud of me, from When I heard her and my dad talking, when they did not know I could her them or in things she would say to other about me. I knew she was proud of me, she simply did not express such to me. Would I have liked her to, of course. But, she could not. Was it my fault, NO. Did I blame myself often as child for my behaviour behaviours. Yes. Did I know I was bright and Intelligent, yes. I didn’t require that validation from my mother.

      I provided it for myself. On The other hand, my father also provided for me as he was nurturing and Expressive in praise and affection. Yet, he still was a staunch and devoted supporter of my mother and her rules. So, my inner drive was my own, as was my inner regulation for right and wrong and the understanding of another’s behaviour. i loved my mother and still do after her death. Blame serves me no purpose.
      As it is unchanging of the past. It does help me understand myself and my own behaviours as what is deemed a co dependent empath much better. It allows me to accept myself most times. It allows me to openly express and praise and adore those I cherish, my family and friends. It allows me to acknowledge the accomplishments of others with genuine, unforced praise.

      I think the toxicity of adoration would be what my father displayed for my mother. And my brother in law for my own sister. I once said to my brother in law, you gave created your own monster. In The sense of feeding Into that need to be adored to such a massive level, that he loses himself in her. Just as my dad did, devotion to another, can indeed go too far. If it disallows you to see the damage that the other person has created around them and the emotional toll it takes on the devotee.

      For myself, I do adore those I love for the right reasons. I can see and accept their flaws and I can respectfully challenge them when needed, just as I ask the same for myself by those who love and respect me.. Ensuring no one ever tells you your behaviour is wrong. And hurtful, is of no benefit In the long term. It can be done with love. Not doing so, creates an equally dysfunctional result. narcissism can be found at both ends.

      I am not sure, if this fails under HGs useful response. But, that is my personal input. If my mother praised me as child, would I be any different today..I do not think I would. The way I treat others would be constant, the only differnce may lay In How I treat myself, as not being self critical and self esteem. But, then I will never know. I think if we are honest with ourselves and regulate our behaviour accordingly and have those who respect us enough to set us straight, without feeling criticized or condemned by them for doing so. We are well on our way.

      1. Thank you Roger- very helpful insights and makes a lot of sense. Sounds like you’ve always had a good sense of yourself and your strengths in spite of the shortcomings of your parents. Healthy.

        Sigh. I’m thinking of what may have been toxic adoration I poured upon my son when he was a child. Still very unconscience to my own childhood wounds, it was my intention that my son would never feel neglected and unseen as I had, so I praised every little achievement – “good job! Good job!” Tryi g to also overcompensate for his N Dad’s lack of emotional response toward my son, I see how this dynamic set my son up to need external validation in order to feel power. The shift in dynamics and my awakening occurred in his late teen years and it has been difficult for him to move past his early wiring, displaying lots of N and Codependent traits of his own. I am grateful for the shifts within myself and hope that as I continue on a healthier road it provides some demonstration for his recovery as well. One of the most painful results of an unconscience Union can be the casualties inflicted on the children.

  37. Now you are coming out with this one HG. Love it. Bravo for your willingness, although you say it is not. It always starts with the mother as I stated in a previous statement.
    I talked with my therapist this morning via phone and I said that I can’t fix my relationship with my mom, she died many years ago, but I can fix me. I also said that a “mother” is not just the one who gave birth to you. I said the she, my therapist is like a mother to me. My sisters, friends. Anyone is nurtures me. This is the real MOTHER.
    You know what she said? Bravo what growth.

    Change your thoughts, change your life.

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