A Sense of Loss

People always struggle with loss. It might be at the top of the scale where you have suffered a bereavement and lost a well-loved family member. It could be the loss of your home where you have lived for twenty years, owing to damage or repossession. It may be the loss of your job, a loss of good health all the way down to something far less important but a loss never the same, of your favourite restaurant when it closes or your daily caffeine injection from a coffee shop because you are economising. Take something away from someone and they will experience sadness, frustration, upset, anger and sometimes confusion. Since people are governed by emotions rather than cool, hard logic, the loss of something often has a devastating and traumatic effect, especially in respect of major losses such as a spouse or partner. Once upon  a time your parents seemed as if they would live forever. They were always there. They raised you, guided you and supported you. They let you find your own way through life but if ever you needed them they were always there to listen and help and then one day you find they have gone and you are left with a huge black hole in your life. Your best friend who you have known for over twenty-five years was a huge part of your life. You spoke daily, laughed about your younger selves and the scrapes you got into, supported one another and cruised through life like the dynamic duo until they have gone and you feel a massive void since their departure to the next life or another continent, dependent on the circumstances. Remove something from a person’s life and they are left with hurt, despondency and despair. This is all the more so when it is something or someone wonderful and delightful. Then the emptiness becomes a howling wilderness.

Of course we are fully aware of how loss affects people from our repeated study of people. We also know that being able to gift someone something wonderful and then remove it, is a sign of considerable power. A power that can be wielded with considerable effects. The power of withdrawal,even if just threatened, can bring about an extreme reaction in the subject. This is something we are fully aware of and something which we take advantage of.

We gave you everything in the beginning. We provided you with a love beyond compare, a dizzying array of compliments, a barrage of desire and a tsunami of flattery. We raised you up, higher and higher and sprayed you with affection, passion and generosity. The light was bright, warm and golden and we let it shine every day just for you. We allowed you to bask in this golden period of utter ecstasy and in return you gave us everything that you had in pursuit of the maintenance of this golden period. Without warning we withdrew it. The door was closed and the shutters lowered and once where you had walked happily and freely you too found yourself transported to the howling wilderness where you stood alone beneath grey, leaden skies as a cold and unforgiving wind whipped around you. It felt like someone had died.

Whereas once we uttered such sweet, sweet words to you, there is now only silence. The reassuring embrace of our arms and lips has somehow vanished and you feel stripped and vulnerable. All of the places we took you to and shared seem so distant and you begin to wonder whether they really happened. Alone and distraught,you wander this wilderness searching for us. Occasionally you catch a glimpse of us but in an instant we have disappeared as you stumble along. The kindness has been removed. The long nights of sexual congress which went beyond anything you have experienced before has been taken away, leaving your bed a cold,hard slab where rest is to be endured rather than enjoyed. If we even grace you with our presence in that place where we once coupled each and every night, a writhing mass of limbs and mouths that explored and pleasured, all you know now is our back which is defiantly presented to you each night. That’s if we even come to bed at all. The spare room or the sofa seem to attract us more than you these days.

We know that taking away this passion, desire, interest, largesse and kindness is like a hammer blow. It is as if we have died but yet you can still see us, touch us and hear us which makes the sense of loss even greater and all the more confusing. Like a pet-owner dangling a bone in front of a salivating puppy, we occasionally open the shutters and allow the golden period to return and the joy and the relief which washes over you at the restoration of this oh most glorious time is electrifying and so is the extent of your gratitude and delight. Yet it is ephemeral. It is like a wonderful dream that has transported you away from all the hurt and misery, but just like a dream when you open your eyes in the morning, it has gone.

The power that comes with withdrawal and your predictable reaction to it, mean that it is a method of manipulation that cannot be ignored. To bestow and then deny has you caught in the strings of our puppetry as we jerk you back and forth between granting those things that you desire the most and then taking them away from you. Your reactions and the control this grants us means that it is so simple yet so effective and something we can never withdraw from doing.

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129 thoughts on “A Sense of Loss”

      1. But what if someone of your kind doesn’t find fuel right away? What if it takes you a few months to find new fuel … then what?

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      2. It is extremely unlikely that it will take a few months to find any fuel Sharon. Even if it cannot be obtained from a new primary source, it will be obtained from secondary and tertiary sources to sustain the narcissist until a new primary source is located and seduced. This new source may not be perfect but they will be used as sticking plaster to achieve stability pending the targeting and seduction of a better functioning primary source.

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  1. HG how early did you learn the power of withdrawal? Your explanations of it are excellent!!! I could not grasp the silent treatments, the cold rejection of my kiss, the withdrawal of sex, and so many others. All of which would make me question what I did wrong. What one provides the most fuel for you? Thank you!

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    1. When I was young boy I saw it in action. I used it when I was a teenager and honed my expertise in it as I grew older.
      As to the one which provides the most fuel, it is not the methodology which governs that but the emotional response of the victim as per the Fuel Index which is described in detail in Fuel.

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      1. Was it the MatriNarc that you observed? How do you feel about her now?
        I do believe in what I have read, she is not one of your favs. So then why be like her, if this is the case?

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      2. For the most part it was her, yes. I am conflicted. She has contributed to my successes and yet she continues to torture me.
        I am not like her. I am better than her.

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      3. OH boy, this reminds me of my son and myself. But I think I was more relaxed and not so hard when it wasn’t perfect. I would say “Honey, do you think you could have done better? If you want it bad enough then go get it.”
        Now he has turned the table and tortures me. I have learned to ignore him. He is my exact and this is the problem. We are very loving to each other too, so there is the balance.

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  2. Well written. Once again sick to my stomach and I will probably loose my hair again just from that read.
    HG, the narc I no has lost so much in his own life. Girlfriends, family, wife, money, house, 25 year old job. What goes threw your mind when your action cause loss, after the damage is done. For yourself. I shake my head as he thinks he is God and the best puppet master but his own loss all around him is very secluding. He keeps cutting the cords around him how do you collect your fuel? I don’t think it’s so easy for him to collect anymore. He never seems to learn. I still think this is a mid narc.

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    1. If cords are cut then fresh ones will spring up in their place such is the need for fuel. If it becomes harder to collect fuel then there has to be a conservation of energy, the avoidance of anything that might wound and an adoption of a technique whereby low-hanging fuel is prioritised.

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  3. I wish to focus on a specific aspect of loss, in a relationship with a narcissist. Not the Golden period. Not the illusion. But the loss of support the person endures because the narcissist wields control over that aspect of their suffering as well. By weaving their web of deception and depicting themselves as the victim.

    I find rather disheartening and unfair the judgement that can be placed unduly upon the person who is suffering from the loss. Whether they chose to leave or remain in The relationship, long term or otherwise, as we all know how we loved our partners. Standing by them, trying to understand and fix the issue. When the abused individual seeks solace and commiseration and help but is again funds themselves at a loss. Because the supporters, by Simply listen to information given to them, as outsiders by an unreliable source, the Abuser. Whereas, the abuser has their own misguided intentions and is blatantly against the person suffering the loss. To say this person vacillates emotionally, while they are in the emotional chasm of Narcisistic abuse. To complain that they seem to want contact with said person to retrieve answers for why they were chosen for said abuse and they also want freedom from the pain of being abused. By said abuser.
    Instead of listening to or Advising the person In need, they turn coat on them and listen to the agitator, the Abuser, the one they are beguiled by his manipulative ways. They chose to believe that person over the person who is suffering in pain and loss. So not only does the individual who is grappling with the torment of abuse, whether ended or still In the throes of such. They must also endure the falsehoods of the abuser that is used to lure in the ones who could offer them needed support.
    Whereby the abuser, the Narcissist, sounds his tales of deception, as how she was at fault, how she slandered him, how she cheated, how she has ulterior motives and is vindictive, how she won’t leave him alone, staker like…..all untrue and all serving to hurt the one being even further absued. All because the others choose to believe the abusers lies without fail or question.

    Why is that? To blame the victim , who did not willingly sign up for this abuse. It makes them an accessory to the abuse, all for the sake of a man/ woman, who would do the same to them during devaluation or discard. Where they would. Also then seek support and advisement…..and apologize to the previous victim for non belief. Such gestures come too late. When we should offer support or at least remain impartial till we have all the facts. Especially if we know the victim. But, the narcisisist will always charm and confuse those who are blinded by such ways, who could offer support so that the one abused is further isolated and made to stand alone.

    It is a terribly sad state of affairs. When the the person who stands with the truth is branded a liar. And the liar is branded a victim. Such is the game and the glory of the Narcissistic abuser.

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    1. I think it is somewhat harsh to suggest that the third parties are accessories to the abuse and do so for the sake of somebody who is an abuser. Yes their behaviour is assisting the N but often these third parties do not know that the N is an N. Bear in mind that they are the coterie, lieutenants and part of the façade. They are well-treated by the N. He has created a marvellous image and they may see this behaviour with several person versus the tale of one person. As I have mentioned before, third parties do not like to get involved, it is easier to stay onside with the N than help the victim, the victim may present in a way (because of the abuse) which affects their credibility, people judge within seconds of dealing with somebody and therefore they are taken in by the N’s charm and the strength of the façade. It is indeed a sad state of affairs for the victim but it is not surprising given the manipulations we deploy and whilst the reaction of third parties is naturally unfair from the victim’s point of view, it is inevitable unless there are those who have seen through the façade owing to other factors.

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  4. Hi HG , how much of this really and truly is just about being horrible and nasty to someone and getting enjoyment out of it . Because even after the break up and you haven’t seen us or missed us or even care what we are doing including quite possibly being with other men and since you seem to feel jealousy why are you not worried that we will just move on if you feel jealousy and you might decide to come back if it suits you . Does it cross your mind that this time we might actually just get over you and move on . Is this really just people that enjoy being unkind to other humans and revelling in being so nasty and horrible and feeling absolutely nothing about it at all. Either those emotions are there and are being denied or if they don’t exist at all and never did . Then they are mentally disturbed and it is not a choice . You cannot make a choice to be a cruel a horrible nasty person . Something must be mentally wrong . What is the doctors opinion on this . Ate the feelings being denied or have they never existed , as that would be some sort of genetic thing ?

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    1. It is about gaining fuel. That is what matters. We are not worried that you will move on for three main reasons:-

      1. At that time we are pre-occupied with a new and better primary source, so we have no interest in you;
      2. Our inherent sense of superiority and brilliance means we consider ourselves able to recover you through a hoover;
      3. We regard you as our property anyway. You are not allowed, in our minds, to move on.

      As to whether the feelings ever existed or not, this is still something that is ongoing, but the suggestion with me is that the feelings were once there but have been disconnected in order to enable me to function in a different manner.
      I do not revel in being nasty and horrible (I may give the appearance of doing so for the purposes of gaining fuel) but being horrible is just a means to an end. Fuel.

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      1. HG , I know you may at some point discuss further about being stuck at certain age/ages . But you may write about that when and if you are ready . But do you feel inside that you are younger . Having just read a small ebook about Peter Pan syndrome and the narcissist . Even if they come under the less harmful Peter pans suggested . (Although they are all still narcissistic ) they are all kind of stuck at some emotional age which is not true to their genetic age . If this theory is correct . Do you actually feel inside that you are younger in your thoughts or emotional reactions ? How does that feel to you ? I think it may be harder with greaters to identify that as they maybe successful in careers etc therefore are operating in an adult way with their thinking . Hope this makes sense ?

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      2. Yes I do feel younger than I am but I gain the impression that many people think that way, although of course it could just be a device everybody deploys in order to try to cope with the concept of their mortality and the looming of old age. I know it is suggested that my emotional reactions are those of a child in a man’s body and I know the “tantrum” suggestion links to that. Of course I do not have tantrums because I have control over my inner fury, but I understand the point that is made. My thinking is entirely consistent with somebody of my age and ability.

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  5. HG I’ve just read something , maybe CJ or anybody could tell me your thoughts on this
    A borderline is a narcissist that did not fully develop a false self ?

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    1. Where did you read in this Lisa?

      I would be curious to read this as I do not personally believe it to be accurate.

      Maybe it depends on how one defines “a false self”. Borderlines are often referred to as chameleons because of our ability to mould and change ours elves So are can become what we Learn to be the Ideal person for whenever it is that Is occupying the elite prime position in our lives up gloriously high upon pedestal. Through out research of this person and our interactions with them, reading them, learnt Info from other sources, etc, we come to find that we have become the living embodiment perse of what our Idolized one wants. Keep In mind though that the Led astray Is always in a state of flux when it comes to Who is on it. And given this fact, surely each occupant is different In their own right. So yes…. Our sense of self Is unstable as who we are is So often changing. Ergo, Chameleon hehehe.

      Given this, you can Imagine that we actually Always are living as our false self. it just seems that there are many false selves!! lmfao. I believe that there are a number of core traits that are distinctly me as they have never changed regardless of who occupied glorious position as centre of my Universe. But many other parts of CJ have changed each and every time.

      I have now reached a place where I have got a the chance it go try and explore who CJ ALONE Is. Its a wee bit scary TBH be cause yes, I feel like I have no idea who I am. have always lived my life being a false self.

      So year… I guess the answer to that may lie In the definition that the author (or whoever it was that said it)….. what exactly they mean when they say false self!!!

      I don know if any of what I just wrote was actually helpful for you or not?? I am sorry it I’ve just wasted some of your Valuable time with me waffling on!! I do hope you got something Out of that lmfao.

      Ohh and I am still working on reply to your video link you posted to me!! I’m also starting work on my next entry. Just a wee bit slower going than y have been lately Is all. Thank you for your patience with me!!

      Cheers, CJ

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      1. CJ , I will find the article and send it to you . It’s all so confusing to be honest . I’m at a point now where I don’t even know what normal is anymore if such a thing exists . I think the article was meaning that NPD in some ways are more in control so the false self is always running the show and although they pretend to be someone that they are not to each different victim , they know what they are doing and are probably less likely to suffer with depression etc (although rejection or low / loss of fuel ) maybe perceived as that . Where as BPD doesn’t have such a well developed false self and is maybe not as in control as the Narcisist . I will find it for you . I guess it’s only a theory anyway

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  6. Sad very sad…. that is exactly the feeling of any loss and also exact words of when the relationship ends.. but not always neither.. I think only with a greater you experiment all of the above.

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  7. Truly it is …or seems…as such a loss. Until one accepts you can’t lose what was not real.

    Which leads to the realization that was has really been lost is so much worse, which is the loss of self. The loss of one’s allegiance to their integrity. The game ends when you no longer play by their rules. It is only a matter of time before one must reconcile their truth to the narcissists rules of engagement. He cannot ever let go of his rules. Then it becomes a psychological stalemate. This is a good time to lose him.

    It feels like a loss. It aches…yes…a howling wilderness is a perfect description. But the wilderness is a wonderful place to find yourself. You learn to survive. You come face to face with your fears. You become self sufficient and resourceful. You even howl back at the moon, first in rebellion and Later in the deepest form of gratitude.

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    1. The power that comes with withdrawal and your predictable reaction to it, mean that it is a method of manipulation that cannot be ignored. To bestow and then deny has you caught in the strings of our puppetry as we jerk you back and forth between granting those things that you desire the most and then taking them away from you. Your reactions and the control this grants us means that it is so simple yet so effective and something we can never withdraw from doing.

      Withdrawing something is another way of wielding our power. We know how you will react to having something taken away. That is why we do it. We grant you something and then take it away, you want the thing back and in order to try and get it back you end up submitting to our control by doing what we want, by providing fuel.

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  8. Funny for me the constant push and pull only reinforces the desire to leave. The more time that passes with intermittent attention…the more I forget rather than long for someone. The more I am like “who are you” and “what have you done for me lately” rather than aching for you. I am very much a tangible feeling individual. If it/you/he/she are not in front of me to touch, I’m not interested. If you take that touch away from me…you can kick rocks.

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  9. Oh wow. Eye opening. Knowing that it is purposeful makes all the more sense. I always wondered if he knew what he was doing when he threw and broke things…they were always my things he picked up, never his. *shudders

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  10. This was most of my scenario. Although I’m very confused, I have not been able to classify my husband, soon to be ex. Not sure if he is a lesser , mid or greater. He has characteristics of all at some points. HG I’m an avid reader of your blog. I would like to have your expert opinion on my experience. If you could .. I would like to e mail you. What is your email. 😋 thanks. I know you are supper busy and I don’t expect an immediate response.

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  11. BPD are not Narcs. We can not be and the reason is we have more empathy then most normal people. We are all, narcs and BPD in the same cluster group defined in the medical field. We have similar traits of a narc but not for the same reasons.
    Narcs will ghost you and hide behind a mask of there true self.
    BPD change there being to fit in! We want to blend into something because we don’t really blend into any one thing. Our sense of self was lost, so we tend to make ourself just fit in to where we want to be. We are only hurting ourself not our partner. So to answer your question. We are not under developed narcs. We are always looked for who we are because we were not given that childhood to develop.

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    1. Hi SII, thank you for your response . I must be really stupid because I am still not understanding the difference between dealing with a person with NPD and a person with BPD. Empathy is very hard to prove . The actual behaviour of BPD does include , hurting others and to say it only hurts yourself is not really correct for the people that have tried desperately to have a solid relationship with people with BPD. They do sabotage relationships for no reason, they do have erratic behaviour in relationships . I love you I hate you . They do have narc traits . So apart from proving empathy it’s very hard to distinguish and if they do feel empathy , they would be able to put themselves in that other persons shoes and consider how it feels for that person to be exposed to narc traits or how that person feels when they are having the I want you I don’t want you treatment on the BPD rollercoaster ride of emotions . They just like narcs only care about protecting themselves emotionally at the cost of others they supposedly love or care about . Borderlines are also not very good at consistency or fidelity . They paint them selves the victim in the same way the narc does . They can be over the top loving and avoident .
      There’s so many excuses made . Even so called normal people take a risk everytime we enter into a relationship with another so called normal . It’s all a risk and sometimes people get hurt . That has nothing to do with all these personality disorder victims that say they do not have narc traits . We all just take a risk and no one knows if it will work or not . But to be deliberately sabotaging and game playing in order to hurt first out of fear of abandonment is not an excuse and does not make BPD any less dangerous for the so called norm. What ever a norm is . This is not a post to upset anyone suffering from BPD however . Everything coming down to empathy just does not cut it with me in the true definition of empathy . What about self absorbed /selfish irrational behaviour with no concern for the hurt caused to others . BPD males are notorious for lying and infidelity . I don’t know so much about females suffering from this disorder . They are under one cluster (B) for a reason . Maybe so many BPD are attracted to narcs because in reality they are themselves avoident and incapable of true intimacy . Empathy irrelevant .

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      1. There are indeed similarities but I do not think Lisa you can state the empathy is irrelevant; it is not. It is a huge distinguishing factor between my kind and those who are BPD. They have empathy and we do not. They also experience more emotions that we do, they also feel remorse, guilt and sorrow at what they have done. In a way, the BPD has the control of a Lesser Narcissist. They really struggle to exert control which results in the sabotaging of relationships, the erratic behaviour and “flaring up” but a Lesser would do that as a knee jerk reaction and not feel any guilt afterwards. A BPD would. I suspect the BPD really struggles because that person will be fighting the urge to create chaos and drama to protect themselves, they will know they will hurt somebody, they know they will feel bad about it in due course.

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      2. Lisa
        I am female and will try to answer or address some of this. First, my empathy is very rooted to my core. I am a nurse. I do feel emotions, that I CAN, very strongly. I knew, at my earliest memory, of 4 years old, I would be a nurse.
        I was unable to experience other emotions that are warm and fuzzy. Love, happiness, peace. I was very abused verbally and physically as a child. I closed off the area that holds those feelings in your heart and soul. I had to as a child in order to survive the abuse. I was not aware what those feelings were. I was truly dead. Imagine how confusing it is to have deep emotions in some areas and dead in others. I never knew how I was suppose to feel. So when I did very inappropriate things I could not feel what I was doing. How do I know this now? I came upon my own narc that was doing some of the thing my own mother did, I then realized I was raised by a narc. Now I got to see everything from the victims point. My healing began and I was able to start to feel a bit more of those warm and fuzzy feelings.
        However, if I am aware, I am forever making up for my mistakes. I don’t mean to blow up a room and walk out. It was not intentional and many times would walk right out not even realizing the fire I left behind. I was not too self absorbed. I was trying to survive in my organized head. I had too many things up in that brain to add anything more. If it seemed like I was too self absorbed, I very well could have been contemplating suicide because I just wanted out of the chaos I tried to contain.

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      3. Hi SII, I really appreciate your response in trying to help me understand . I know that my ex fits at least if not more of the 5 criteria for BPD. So I am trying to understand . The unfortunate thing is that he can fit the same criteria as a mid range Narcisist with the same check list . But using gaslighting and manipulation in order to either mask that he is a narcissist or to leave the door open for hoovering or because he is very much the victim . I guess I will never really know for sure but your help and CJ’s help and others in the group trying to explain BPD is very helpful. I think what I was trying to say although probably not very well. Not that empathy is irrelevant in the true sense . But trying to know what is fake empathy from a Narcisist versus true empathy from a borderline when you are the one on the receiving end of all of this is very hard to know what is true . My narcissists whole story about himself is based on lies in one respect or another . He goes between talking as if he does have empathy to victim mode all the time . As you have so kindly explained SII there have been times that you did not feel sorry for certain things such as infedility etc . He is so self absorbed he himself could be the same way that you explain filtering out certain emotions and awareness as to how his action affect things . Anyone with a personality disorder that is part of this group are actually recognising it and have self awareness. HG tells me to remain no contact with him . Can I ask any borderlines for your advice about responding to him and trying to be on civil terms with him . Due to mutual friends and having to come face to face with him very shortly . Let’s just pretend he’s a borderline for the sake of this post . Me being on civil terms with him or breaking the no contact due to him messaging me after nearly 4 months ? What does that mean with a borderline rather than a Narcisist ? Do borderlines reach out like that to exes to try to be friendly or make contact after sometime has passed ? And that would not be considered a Hoover ? Because maybe they do feel some remorse about how they behaved ? Or do borderlines not really do this ?

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      4. Hey Lisa….

        I just read your post here and thought I have a quick say as to my thoughts about the end there…..

        If he is a borderline, it’s likely he has spent the last 4 months in a world of agony without you and has been switching from torturing himself and hating himself…. to being enraged with you.

        It’s likely if he’s a borderline, you were placed gloriously up high on his pedastal… his world revolved around you. By instituting no contact, you stripped him of everything that is real to him right now. We are known as chameleons…. we change most things about ourselves to fit into the picture of our pedastal occupant’s ideal partner image. We do not have a real sense of self…. we do not know who we really are.

        This is one of the biggest issues that come with the abandonment stage. Each time someone leaves, we are thrown into chaos and pain…. each time our that person on the pedastal engages in abandonment behaviour, we are stripped of our identity because we have constructed this identity around you. We simply have no real sense of self. Being alone does not bode well for us because yes… we don’t know who we are.

        So, with all of that in mind, I will answer your questions to the best of my knowledge!!

        HG tells me to remain no contact with him . Can I ask any borderlines for your advice about responding to him and trying to be on civil terms with him. Due to mutual friends and having to come face to face with him very shortly. Let’s just pretend he’s a borderline for the sake of this post. Me being on civil terms with him or breaking the no contact due to him messaging me after nearly 4 months ?
        – His contacting you is his way to test the waters and try gauge where you stand in regards to him. (This has made me think however…… is this the first time he has texted you?? What was his behaviour like when you first enacted “no contact”?? Did he become irrational and almost obsessive in the way of texting you or trying to contact you at all?? A Borderline will generally “lose it” when people leave. As i said… your no just leaving and take yourself away…. your also taking our complete sense of self at the time!! Your leaving us so extreamely alone and vulnerable. And, because we have dedicated ourselves completely to you, we may well be left with nobody to turn to when this false world comes crashing down around us. We can’t handle this… its too much for us. We will go into a frenzy. And yea… we generally text you often…. and the accompanying mood of the text, can change as quickly as from 1 text to the next.

        What does that mean with a borderline rather than a Narcisist ?
        – If he is a borderline, and you break contact…. i would say that he will feel both relief!!… releif that your answering, relief that your possibly allowing him a window of opportunity to regain you and regain the identity that he has lost. He would feel happiness and excitement at your reply. However, he would, as ive just said… he would see it as his ticket back in. It would be seen instantly as you giving him a chance to prove himself to you!! As well as the chance to ultimately place you back up in esteemed positon upon pedastal!!

        Do borderlines reach out like that to exes to try to be friendly or make contact after sometime has passed ?
        – Yes, we do. Our feelings about our ex will cycle. It will be a longing to understand: why have you left?? what did I do wrong?? Please just tell me where i fucked up?? And so on!!

        When you don’t reply to this, you will be met with anger: Why can’t you just be a decent human being and answer my questions??!! You know what this doing to me and the hell im in… yet you won’t do anything to try help??!! So much for ever having apparently “loved me”…. people do not do this to the people they love!!!

        Anger is then followed by remorse and sadness: Im so sorry!! I didn’t mean it!! I cant believe I spoke to you like this. I really am a monster. You should hate me. You have every right to hate me. I’m just so unbelievably sorry!!

        Then around to the last leg where it’s time to attempt to let you go (im so sorry again… i promise I will do my best to stay away… etc)….. despite the fact that really, thus is not a possibility yet…. the addiction to you is still far to strong and reality is that we need to be forced into a horrendous withdrawal from you before this behaviour will cease.

        And that would not be considered a Hoover ?
        – its not a Hoover like a narc hoovers. Yes…. there is a certain amount of manipulation in the words i use when i try contact you. I will be trying to illicit a response from you as i work my way through these stages. I’m “testing” you. I want you to reply… I dont care If your reply is in anger, is abusive, whatever!! A reply to me means I still have a chance!!! I still have the ability to talk you around if you engage with me!! However, the difference as I see it, is in the reason we are trying to contact you. We simply want you to return us… return with you love, your attention, your affection, your adulation!! We also want to return of “ourselves”…. the return of the identitywe have created… and if you do return…. watch how quickly and easily we can slip right back to that role.

        Because maybe they do feel some remorse about how they behaved ?
        – Yes… most certainly they do!!! He would have spent majority of the past 4 months likely beating on himself!! It does depend on if you did genuinelly do something that wrong (eg… what i told you about my narcissist ex and xmas last year!!! I just couldn’t find a way to make that one MY fault!!! Lmfao!!). But yes, generally we do feel extreme remorse for our actions!!

        Or do borderlines not really do this ?
        – Yes… we do do this!! If there us a chance of us possibly getting you back…. we will take it!!

        I hope these answers have helped you some how Lisa!!!
        Cheers 😃

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      5. Hi CJ thanks for explaining all of that . I don’t know what the hell he is
        In some ways he fits lesser narc but probably closer to mid but who knows . The check list for BPD he has at least 7 traits on that list . He has OCPD , schizoid could also fit in someways and Avoidant – Peter Pan Syndrome with schizoid is common he fits that , that’s a lot of Co morbid !! I think he’s everything !!!

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      6. HG if that’s a joke it’s gone over my head . Can you either explain the joke or tell me what it means .

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      7. It is a joke Lisa. Since he appears to suffer from all manner of conditions and disorders I described it as Fookum Uppis Majoris (Major Fuck Up).

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      8. Lisa,
        At all cost, remain No Contact. Sometimes in order to gain confidence, a person will go back to the ex, initiate a hoover, get it and abandon. They do this because they have someone lined up, but want to be sure you are there just in case new relationship fails. This way they keep the free flow of fuel with a safety net. I said person above because this can apply to N and BPD and Sociopath. It is all a lie. If a person truly felt remorse, wouldn’t they try to change instead of saying I cannot help it I have a mental problem? If you are aware you are doing it, are you really remorseful?

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      9. Hi Persephone,

        I completely agree that if they felt remorse, they would try to change!! Not blame their condition!!

        So what of those of us that truly are trying to change??

        I know I personally am doing everything I can to break the BPD cycles… I am hurt most by the disorder that I have!!

        Yes…. i admit to hurting others… i own the way in which I have hurt them. However, it’s me who suffers the most with the self hate i have, the guilt at the way i behave, the shame at the things i do….. i feel such extensive pain that im willing to jack at myself with razor blades or ridiculously Sharpe knives!! The way I feel about myself is so horrid that I regularly contemplate killing myself because at the end of the day….. it would be doing everybody a favour because I couldn’t hurt anyone anymore!!! Thats how deep the remorse and the guilt and the self-hatred run!!!

        So yes….. im in weekly therapy with 1 of my Drs, and then I was seeing the other Dr fortnightly until this session coming where we have stretched it out to 3 weeks!! Plus I am engaged currently in a program for people like myself who has serious issues with emotional regulation. That’s a 10 weeks program. Before that, I was engaged in another that focused on self care in the way of mentally… so taking time away from everyone else to do something leisurely for yourself sorta stuff.

        Surely anyone can see that I am trying as hard as I can, to break my bpd… get rid of this abhorrent disorder that is truly ripping of chunks of my soul every time I cycle through!!! I truly don’t know how many more cycles I can handle!!!

        Cheers Persephone for bringing this point up tho coz I certainly agree!!! If you are truly sorry…. F*N PROVE IT!!!!

        CJ

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      10. CJ7,
        I am happy to hear you are working so hard. Don’t stop working. Don’t think your life doesn’t matter to others. Just your comment meant something to me. Giant oxytocin inducing hug for you! 💜

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      11. Oh Thank you Persephone!!! Thats wonderful to hear from you!!! Its not something i genetally hear often tbh!! So yes…. it truly was lovely to read!!! And I’ll definitely accept that giant oxytocin inducing hug!!!! Hahaha 💖😉

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  12. I’m struggling so much today , I really feel the need to message him and just get all this off my chest since that birthday message he sent me it’s just set me back so much . I’ve remained no contact for 4 months . HG is it really bad if I break and just message him exactly how I feel about it and what I now realise I have been dealing with ? What difference does it make ? Isn’t it better that he knows I know and at least I’ve had the chance to say it ?

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    1. You have no need to message him. Your feeling is understandable and indeed it is engineered by us. Is it really bad if your break NC? Well it is not really bad BUT why let all your hard work go to waste? You have managed 4 months so far so build on that good start. You are falling prey to the desire to let him know that you know, which as I write is like that nagging itch for you. He doesn’t need to know. You need to maintain NC.

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    2. Hi Lisa! I feel your struggle!!!! It’s an agonizing feeling. I am almost at 5 months NC and it’s such a temptation especially as an important date to you comes up. I managed to not message her on her birthday and on her wedding day but as it gets closer to our anniversary of when we got engaged I know I will be thinking about it every second of that day. You will be in my thoughts today Lisa. ❤️ You should be proud of yourself that you made it that far. One day at a time or one hour at a time that’s what I keep saying. I have a feeling that itch HG talks about will be around a long time😓

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      1. Hi Snow White , I’m just getting to the point where doing the RIGHT thing as in no contact is just not working for me . I understand HG’s point the best way is to forget the narc and move on you cannot win . I have accepted that . But my whole relationship was spent being the bigger person not stooping to his level not acting out when he was deliberately provoking arguements , acting like a bloody therapist to the idiot , listening to his ridiculous mixed up ramblings about exes that made no sense at the time . All of this does not make one bit of difference to these lunatics . They don’t think “well she was so understanding and reasonable ” Nope , doesn’t work like that . So I’m getting to the point where fuel or no fuel if it makes me feel better to shock him with a delightful message telling him exactly what he is makes me feel better then , do I care how he feels or what he thinks NO. I don’t think I do . Although HG says in another post that he does not care about us he just enjoys writing . Which is a disappointment as I thought he loved each and every one of us 😜 I’m a way he does care as he is trying to advise us the best course of action to move on . Maybe that’s one of his rules, for his blog , for himself . But maybe just telling these assholes what they are is good for us . Plus it will come as a shock to him as I never did it before . HG ?? Will he just see it all as fuel , even though he knows he’s mentally ill ? ? On another subject (yes this is a long post lol). He mentioned to me quite a while before we split up that he had driven past an ex of his , now this is an ex from years ago ( like 10 , 12 years ago ) and he had waived at her and she didn’t respond just turned away . This obviously annoyed him . Regardless of the fact he has no interest in her and it was years ago . It still annoyed him . No doubt he treated her like crap and she’s long moved on . He then went on to say she was weird anyway . There’s only 3 catergories the exes fall into , slags , psychos , or weird . Today he has suddenly become friends with her on FB. I know this woman’s sister in law as it happens and there is no way on earth she has sent him a friend request . So either it has been annoying him all this time that she snubbed him or fuel is low . So when HG says it never stops . No it doesn’t 12 years and he’s friend requesting someone he’s not even spoken to in probably 12 years or more . I seriously doubt she’s interested in him but has obviously accepted the friend request . I really don’t think he can stand it if he thinks people hate him or don’t like him or don’t want anything to do with him or can see through him . He must remain the nice troubled guy that is sorry and confused and he must remain the victim . He probably knows I’m checking his FB maybe he has become friends with her to annoy me . He has to fill his time somehow , he’s still got to wait until November for his holiday . What am I going to do at this funeral in 3 weeks . Yes I can ignore ? Is that more annoying for him HG? Than messaging that I know what he is ?

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      2. Of course I love you all, you know that!
        Telling him what he is, is rarely helpful because:-
        1. You usually just end up providing fuel. If you manage to deliver it in a unemotional manner, you will not give fuel though, but often you will find that hard to do. Also, he will try to provoke you into giving fuel.
        2. We either do not know what we are or if we do we will not accept it to you. If you are hoping for an admission, you will be disappointed.
        3. Any contact by you will encourage further contact.
        4. You are likely to find the engagement unsatisfying and still have matters you wish to raise because we engineer that state of affairs.
        Maintaining no contact and ignoring is far more effective, which is what you ought to do at the funeral.
        Thank you for the 12 year example which goes to demonstrate the point I repeatedly make; the Narcissistic Contract remains in place until death.

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      3. Hey Lisa….

        I just wanted to say that I agree with your story that 12 years later, it does not stop…..

        Me and my ex N were actually on and off (more years spent OFF!!!) for over hang on….. about 17 years!!! (Since we were 12…. I am now 29 and a half lol). So yea…. You are never truly free!! I have no doubt in my mind that she will try to contact me in a few years from now…. thinking I am going to fall for her crap…. Little does she realise I actually feel incredibly free since having ditched her ass to the “curb” lmfao!!!

        I KNOW without doubt that I am better than her and I am worth more than her!!! And it took me quite some time to realise this… It actually took me coming across HG’s blog and the people I have spoken to on here for me to come to believe this!!

        A particular thanks to PM!!.. for this. Thank you for giving me countless hours of your time and undivided attention in answering me so Thoroughly…. It as been fantastic being able to talk so much through and get another perspective…. Oh and of course… to talk through tattoos and meanings etc lmfao!!….
        Leilani…. A thank you to you too. Regardless of being a N yourself… you have shown me much kindness and caring through your communications with me…. and lets not forget… lots of giggles around those silly fools and their buckets of drool…. Speaking of Leilani…. How’s winter where you are?? Are you going to need to start stock piling drool in case of snow storms and the like?? LMFAO!!!…
        And of course, to HG!!… where would I be without our wonderful dark master himself!! So yes… Thank you HG for answering questions and for given me your very valuable time and attention. It is appreciated tremendously!! (and of course, it goes without saying…. Thankyou for all you do in your writing as It is through your books and blog posts, that I even came to understand things like “No Contact”!!! I also learnt much about myself as a borderline through things I have read in the books that I have powered through so far!! so yes, my most sincere cheers mate!!).
        AND, 1 last big thanks…. To no other than B&T!! Thank you for instilling in me a confidence that had been sorely lacking for some time!! You have been willing to answer anything that I have thrown your way regarding my ex N and her treatment of me… as well as helping me to see what may still be lying ahead in my future when it comes to hoovers etc!! It has been wonderful being able to speak to a Female narc akin creature and grab a womanly perspective LMFAO!!! Thank you for the witty banter… and of course, the banter of a more “mature” context hahaha. You really did make me laugh many a time!! I hope we have many a chance to continue said banter into the future lmfao!!! Thank you truly again B&T!!

        And a big thanks to everyone who has commented when I have had something to ask… I have appreciated everyone’s in put.

        Without It…. I would not feel the most incredible sensation I have currently…. The feeling of complete and utter freedom from that wench who has be bound and chained in damn slave shackles for yes… as I said… 17 or so years!!!
        Well…. sorry b*tch, but ahh… Ive broken out of your shackles and Iron collar!! You will NEVER be a part of my life again.

        Cheers everyone!!! CJ

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      4. Hi Lisa, I hope as I’m writing back that you are still NC. I understand completely why you want to and feel the need to let him have it. You might feel good for a minute but you will be taking a step backwards. I bet he will enjoy every minute and just like HG said, it will just encourage him to contact you. I can honestly say that all the advice that HG has given me has been 100% accurate. It’s not always what your mind or heart wants to hear but it has kept me going in the right direction towards healing. I didn’t want anything to do with the NC but it is necessary. I now can say I don’t want to see her or reach out to her. A month ago I would have never thought that possible. It feels good and I don’t have as much guilt as I did. She will always be a temptation and an addiction for me. I am nowhere near not crying everyday but a whole lot better. I realize I will have to work on it forever. They will keep coming back without any help from us so why make it easier for them…. Seeing my ex in person is something that I think about. It worries me like you. I know I should remain emotionless but I have no idea what to do if should run into her. I would come up with a game plan for the funeral. Good luck❤️ HG, what do I say if I just run into her?

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      5. Hello SW, thanks for your comment and your observations. In answer to your question about what to do if you happened to bump into her, it is worth me repeating what I detailed to Lisa about a month ago concerning her situation.

        If you both attend the funeral it is unlikely that you can avoid one another but that would be the first aim. If you have to interact keep it to the minimum. Say hello and move away. I am sure during the service you can be seated away from him and if he leaves the church soon after you can remain with other attendees. If he is lingering, then you can leave the church and go to the wake. At the wake he will doubtless try to hoover you by approaching you. Ensure someone else remains with you so you can talk to them rather than him, this will be tantamount to ignoring him which will create a criticism and cause him to need fuel. He is likely to move away rather than cause a scene and if he does cause a scene, do not react and he is made to look bad. If you are cornered then deal with him in a neutral fashion so he is not getting any fuel. Don’t ask about him or how he is. Don’t provide detail if you answer any questions. It will feel uncomfortable but ensure you do not show this, remain neutral and business like. There is not need to tell him you know what he is. It is not the appropriate time to do so.

        I would recommend SW you apply this mutatis mutandis to your situation and naturally if you have any further queries, please do ask.

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    1. YES!!! BPD’s most definitely feel remorse!! It is suffocating at times how bad my remorse is!!

      I will go to extreme lengths to try and repair any damage that I have done in the process of “acting out” or in trying to control my emotions or when I have simply not been able to control them because, for example, the highs are just to extreme and I’m honestly kinda not caring because I’m actually feeling “happy” a the time… A feeling that I don’t get to experience all that often unless, unfortunately, its created…. and that’s usually through the person on the pedestal.

      My remorse can, at times, drive me to self harming behaviour. I have cut myself more times than I care to admit TBH, because the regret over something I perceive as being a wrongdoing is just too painful and intense to be able to manage so I find I’m in a position where I NEED to release it before I loose complete control.

      But here in lie the biggest issue, I believe, for a BPD when it comes to remorse……. What we perceive to be a wrongdoing!!

      I have acted in a number of ways that have ended up being brushed of as nothing major after all… however because it wasn’t treated this way sooner, I obsessed to the point of convincing myself that what I had done was so deeply wrong that I had driven another person away!! Might be easier if I give an example…..

      Say…. Ok, I have got a new person that I have started to idolise. They are quickly climbing the ladder and making their way up to prized position atop my most glorious pedestal. However, as this process is occurring, I am still working out the full limits of my bounds. With this comes working out especially, how far I can go in the way of expressing my love and adoration for them. But… Because of my lack of ability to maintain control over my emotions, I end up having what Dr M refers to as my “confession” moments, where I cant seem to stop myself from pouring out every single little thing I can to express how much I truly love them. How much I want to make them happy. How much they mean to me at all. How they have become the epicentre of my universe! How I have never felt this way before. (I think its cool… I’ve explained there lmfao!!). Once I have done my confession, in the hour or few that come after, I await reply to confirm it was received in positive regard… hopefully VERY Positive!!

      But then…. as time starts to tick by and more and more time elapses, I become more and more paranoid and obsessive about it. If its in an app such as Facebook Messenger, I will start to go in an obsessively check when the last time that the had been on their messenger was, ill reread the message and over analyse… Pick the whole thing completely apart to the point that it no longer sounds right anymore like the way it felt ohhh sooo right about an hour or 2 ago!! Then I will move onto to obsessing about the other person too. Why haven’t they received it?? What are they doing?? Who Are they with?? Why don’t they want me like I do them?? I think they care!! etc.

      All of this eventually culminates in me finally believing that what was once originally a very romantic idea that would sweep said pedestals occupant off their feet….. Is now a horribly offensive thing for me to have written to that person!! I have done a full 180 the other way and believe myself to have committed a wrongdoing that has offended and upset someone so severely that they wont even talk to me anymore…. That this is the beginning of yet another abandonment.

      Now I start to feel the deeply intense and truly painful remorse. I can quite literally feel pain over what I have deluded myself into thinking is a wrongdoing!! it may well push me to the point that I feel that the only way that I will get some relief is if I cut myself up.

      But you will remember that up above I said the biggest issue lies in our perception of wrong doing???…. well I cant even begin to imagine how many times I personally have gone through this experience to finally receive a text along the lines of: “Hey babe, how are ya?! Sorry I couldn’t get back to you sooner hey!! I had sooo many errands to run today that I simply have not had a chance to look my phone!!!!”. So basically…. I’ve gone through this insanely swinging pendulum of emotions concluding in severe remorse…. For no reason!!

      I guess this also attests to how much “power” per se, our almighty, idolized pedestal occupant has over us too.

      Sorry for the extremely long reply lol!!! I hope that its not too much to read and you can get something out of it peeps!!
      Apoligies once more!!!

      Cheers

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      1. No, I appreciate it. A former bpd friend is hovering and I am unsure how to handle the situation. I truly don’t believe she intended to cause harm. People make mistakes. I wonder if its still possible to be her friend, but with a healthy distance? She is not a bad person. Tubby, I hate to say it, probably is..,,I hope he chokes on those potato chips…

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      2. I have got friends who I have a healthy distance with i must admit.

        Although…. To get to this stage with some of them, It was a painful process.

        However, If she has already been held at a distance for some time now, and you would like to allow a connection to reoccur, I would reccomend that you make sure you enforce boundaries from day 1. Make sure she knows that you are not available to her any time she wants…. and then when she cant help herself but try and push!! (which its true… we seriously cannot seem to help ourselves… Its like a instinctual need… We will push because we need the emotional connections that we have with people. We need to know that there are people who love us and care about us), Ignor her!! I know this might sound like slightly odd advice for me to be giving you!!… But yes… Ignor her. She will likely try call regularly…. Screen the call!! She will also likely text fairly regularly throughout each and everyday until she finally gets the picture!!…. Don’t reply!! She will even possibly resort to then “stalking” you on social media (which lets face it… she already surely has!!! lol)… She will likely make this stalking prescence known however…leaving “likes” and comments and messages etc…. Ignore them!! lmfao.

        I am not saying that you should be cruel to her… She doesnt not deserve cruelty!! We do not CHOSE to have this disorder… TRUST ME when I say that this disorder has destroyed me over and over again and left me to have to not only pick up the pieces and put myself back together again… I also have to do this ALONE each time!!… I know I hurt other tremendously at times… But this disorder rips of chunks of my soul at times!!!

        So yes… Ignore… In moderation!! Dont just ignore her 100% of the time. However, try judge what you can handle… And then respond when you think it to be appropriate and acceptable in regards to how often etc. This is the only way that she is going to learn what boundaries are acceptable to you!!! I can tell you now.. This process will likely hurt her. She will judge how mucg you care… If you care AT ALL!! However, all will be forgiven each and every time you then spend a day with her and you guys laugh and gossip etc etc. She will have a fantastic to basically tie her over until the next one.

        It took me quite some time to finally be ok with this situation (But… This was also with someone who was a pedastal occupant and had been living with me, got a new boyfrind while living with me, gradually worked up to moving in with him…. And then yes, because they were in the shiny new lovers phase basically… She wanted to spend all her time with him, etc etc. So it was extreamely hard for me to adjust to having her around every single day to eventually none at all!!).

        As i am sure you can likely see by now… Boundaries is not exactly our strong suit lmfao!!

        Also, its probably helpful for you to be aware of the fact that when it comes to our emotions… We live in a day at a time. You may have told me that you loved me and that you would do anything in your power to help me because you care about me YESTERDAY….. BUT, Its a new day… When it comes to my emotional security, yesterday may as well have not exsisted!! I cant rely on what I was told yesterday by you!!… I need to hear it again today too!! I will need it again tomorrow as well!!… and every other day that follows!! Iknow… Needy much??!! lmfao

        I hope this has helped you TT!!

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  13. In my case as a Borderline I do feel remorse. Often times much greater then most people. I also did things that I had no remorse for doing. Example. Marital affairs, I had no concept of the impact. Spending 100,000 of our money on all me. Thought that was part of life. Somethings I would say came out unfiltered.

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    1. Yes, I understand the unfiltered thoughts that fell/fall from my mouth. I work hard now at holding back but I warn people up front. Don’t ask me what I think as I will tell you and you might not like what I will say.
      Not proud but I would say I have cheated on EVERY relationship at one point. Usually when I was finished, in my mind, with them although the relationship could have lasted long after the indiscretion.
      Financially? I have always been very responsible with the shekels. I bounced one check in my life and I was 21 and it was really stupid how this happened. I have been very fortunate in this arena.
      Yes, we can feel greater/deeper on some levels but on others we can not.
      Huge problem with abandonment issues and this is why a Narc can totally destroy me. I have and still learn coping skills. Mommy issues again. But thanks to HG, my own good therapist and all the ones in the past, I get the fuck over it.
      So many symptoms and characteristic traits of BPD, which I prefer to call it PDS. Personality Disorder Syndrome. To me it is a Syndrome. And I have ADD on top of it. You should be in my head at times. Fun place. Take a right, no left, no, no, I am pretty sure a right is in order. NOOOO left, left, LEFT! Damnit! Let’s go straight for now until I can figure this out. OKOK Take this right/Left. Fuck it! I will just let you decide. This was how it use to be. In my head. A ping Pong Ball. I am a fortunate one at this stage. I control my crazy and keep it locked up.

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      1. Haha!! I like your comment Steeviann.

        Keeping the crazy locked away!! I do the same thing!! Along with yes… do not ask my opinion unless you want to truth coz I aint going to lie!!!

        I am ADHD too ontop of the BPD. Over the years I’ve drs try and tell me i was manic depressive, bi-polar, schizophrenic and even multiple personality. However i am 150% confident in my bpd diagnosis. I’ve lived with it long enough now and done enough research to know that I’m most certainly a Borderline.

        I meet all 9 DSM-IV criteria to a Tee!! And many times I’ve met all of them at onice lol. So yes… to me personally, it was always clean cut.

        But yes… i do understand how we can feel like we are loosing it and going crazy. I feel insane much of the time tbh lol…. but yes… i tried to keep it locked up much of the time!! Unfortunately, the emotions can become far too much for me to be able to contain it all the time but when I do let loose, I do only let certain people see the crazy!!

        Yes on the abandonment front too lol. Major issues here too. I don’t really think someone can be BPD without having abandonment issues lol. It’s like the pillar almost of BPD lmfao!!!

        Cheers

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      2. I can say that I have worked through most of my issues over the years. In the end, for me, it was a conscience choice. Rather, no other choice if I wanted life. I did choose life. And I have had an amazing life but not without its struggles and I learned from them.
        I started pampering myself in my early 20’s and create a life that is charmed. I retired in 1999 and basically worked for myself and husband managing properties and a company we had. I now do nothing as being me is a full time job. I could not have accomplished all that I have if I stayed in the mental muck that was my brain. So the big me pulled the little me by the hand and made a life.
        Without meds, but not without pain, intense internal pain. I still fight it each and everyday. Who knows this? My therapist and the peeps on here and my sisters. Others around me know I suffer inside but they really do not understand.

        I used sex in my youth to channel the anger. I had self imposed non-contact (physical) for myself for a very very long time. This is why my Narc could get to me. (My favorite prey was Jet Pilots, FA/18, big egos so I could challenge them and they were always up for that.)

        I woke up my DEMON and I am on the prowl. The problem is I am so picky. My nose can smell a potential prey from across the room, but the only scent I am getting lately is very stale and not appetizing.

        This blog and HG’ writings remind me daily that I do not want to look back for him. Besides he wasn’t very exciting. It was all me.

        If you feel something breathing on the back of your neck, careful as it could be me and I move very swiftly once you become aware and I go right for the jugular.

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  14. It is correct that BPD is defined by 9 symptoms, of which you must exibit 5, in order to be diagnosed as borderline in the medical field. We are not categorized as mid, high and low functioning. Some of use have PTSD which harbors other types of symptoms.

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    1. The diagnostic criteria for BPD (as well as NPD and antisocial personality disorder and OCD….. others too!!), has actually changed since the release of thevDSM-V. It’s no longer those 9 points that one must meet to be diagnosed.

      I personally like the 9 points in the DSM-IV myself…. thats what my diagnosis was always based on. I met all 9 points and numerous different times since I was 1st diagnosed many yrs ago. I find them to be easier to attribute to someone’s behaviour etc. The DSM-V is not as clear i dont think.

      Cheers

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  15. CJ

    I live in the USA and my medical team still uses the 9 point criteria. I also hit all 9 criteria through out my life. I was in and out of therapy for 25 years and suicide was dangling every week. Surprisingly because I am well educated. My appearance looks extremely put together, nobody could give me a diagnosis. I finally landed a top notch doctor and in 30 min gave me my diagnosis. I was raised in a family that what happened behind the doors were not spoken about. On the outside we were the perfect cleaver family. That’s my role model!

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    1. Thank u SII for sharing that info on the US still using 9 point model. In in Oz and we still use 9 points model too. I know however that the DSM-V criteria will be getting phased in at some stage is all and did not know about anywhere else in the world.

      I am very alike to you… well educated… outer appearance of being composed etc. I do my best to not let ppl see my inner lunacy because based on a repetative history of the same, the all leave. However in saying this, I can’t seem to stop myself from showing my crazy to the person up high gracing the pedastal (as i am sure you are aware).

      I too have had a number of years in and out of therapy, nor do I have the best role models.

      But I will keep doing what I need to do to try better myself and maybe, one day even break, these behaviours that ultimately hurt everyone I touch and destroy myself!!

      Thank you for sharing about yourself
      – CJ

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      1. This is very Informative, I can relate to BPD on emotionality in my thinking and immense guilt and remorse for having said and done anything that may cause another unintentional upset. I am harder and more self critical then any One else ever could be of myself. but I am not BPD or any cluster B disorder. I am similar in feelings of abandonment, emptiness and reactivity in mood…only three of the nine criteria. I suffer from Anxiety and situational depression, brought on by various life stressors.
        I do however question my Cn and the possibility of BPD with NPD? As he falls into all additive behaviour categories, but self harm. Along with
        Five other criteria.
        This is a highly valuable conversation and why I would like HG to write an Indepth article on it as so many readers can relate or need to understand as well.

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  16. I must say that in my teens and twenties, I was at my worst. Having children helped with my focus and I changed. I know my family appreciates the calmer, nicer, more predictable me. So do I. There are still times I have to stop, drop and roll. I keep it to myself most times when my crazy demon child wants to emerge.
    I am not on meds other than something for ADD and a very low dose. I also won’t take it every day.
    I have fought hard to always keep it together as there is no one else that can take care of my world like it needs to be handled. I like control and this is what keeps me steady.

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    1. I think it of immense value, when people share of themselves and who they are. It shows that we may not be NPD but we all can relate in some level based on our own experiences and possible disorders, that there is no shame in admitting such and seeking healing and understanding. It is the empathy that keeps us grounded. In understanding ourselves, we can better understand others. I do not hate any of the sociopaths or narcissists that came into my life, including my mother.in fact In loved them all. They just falsified love for me. Everyone is a life lesson to us.

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  17. CJ & Steeviann…
    Whoa… I’ll keep my crazy as the read itself was exhausting. Feel sorry for your brains. Overworked fo shizzle. Still love you guys though. We are all mad here! Ugh!

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      1. Hahaha…. thank you Persephone!!!

        Much love from me too lmfao!!!

        Yes….. its an exhausting existence (especially wgen i live on an average of 4hrs of very btoken sleep a night… max!!! Lmfso) but somehow, I always seem to have some spare energy tucked away to get thru!!

        Yes…. i like to prescribe to my own very special and unique brand of crazy lmfao!!!…. its a very overworked crazy however, as you said hahaha 😉

        Cheers Persephone, I got quite a laugh from reading ur comment!!! 😂

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  18. Lisa
    This question is really not about what kind of disorder he has. The problem is that the relationship is unhealthy. Do yourself a favor and move on with no contact. You will continue to be hurt whether he is borderline or narc. It’s hard enough to work at a relationship without any personality disorders. It’s so much more work when one is involved. If you do not move on with no contact, you never will.

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    1. Hi SII, yes you are right it doesn’t really matter too much which one he has . But logically knowing what the right thing to do and how you feel are 2 seperate things. If only it were that easy . I brought it to an end I have remained no contact . So logically I am doing the right thing but emotionally I am a mess . I also find it hard that he has had a number of long term relationships even experiencing depression when they ended but has never had any of this with me . Yes it lasted 2 years on and off but I kept breaking up with him but he’s never shown any signs of being bothered , even in a narc way .

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    2. Hi SII! I just learned so much from your above posts, I want to thank you and the others for explaining all of that. It really made sense to me. You explained that just like my therapist. The bottom line is my relationship was unhealthy and I couldn’t continue on and that the only way is no contact, just like you said. I can’t have my ex no matter what. I have to repeat that to myself every day. You said it perfectly. Part of me still hates it though.

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      1. Nooooo HG I meant a narc overall!!!! Not you perse…. And I noticed that I mispelled believe. Please excuse the typo. I appreciate you all answering my questions. Your insight helps a lot. 🙂

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    1. However….. if she refused to stop seeing him….. first I would sure up my knowledge on the prick….. and then I would be fairly insidious about taking him down so as not to make it obvious to my daughter!!!

      I mean, let’s face it hey…. all teens react the same way to being told they can’t have something or someone…. they only want it more!!! And God forbid they catch you meddling…. that would only ensure that she runs even further towards him lmfao!!!

      So yes…. the insidious approach it would be lmfao!!!

      Great question however Mkcoy

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  19. My daughter is 28 years old with a degree in psychology. I suppose she can thank me for that career choice.
    I would hope my daughter would recognize the unhealthy signs herself. She watched me put her father threw hell. I would think she would not repeat history! I broke the abuse cycle it would be ashamed to think otherwise.

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    1. SII -So it doesn’t bother you not one bit to knowingly admit that you put him through hell? I have a hard time being mean UNLESS I’m fed up. Now my husband with whom I am separated from. …If I saw his @$$ on fire I wouldn’t even spit on him to help put out the flames!! I am working on letting go of the anger because it gives him power. But inside I am fuming to even see a text with his name attached.. Believe it or not, my dislike for him is what gives me so much strength to NEVER even think if getting back with him!

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      1. Unfortunately mkc, when we are in a cycle of having someone up gloriously high on our pedastal, we can delude ourselves and yes… as SII pointed out… when we are in the throws of this cycle, our disorder is usually at its worst/most fully on?! Lol. It’s like it takes over and logic or reason we have when we’re not so blinded by infatuation etc, it’s gone!!!

        I too display all nine criteria the most when someone has taken firm hold on the pedastal…. and then when I start to Centre my world around them.

        I can openly admit to having hurt every one of those people and others in my sphere too…. some tremendously!!! I can own my behaviour….. however, it does not mean at the same time, that I am okay with it or that I like it!! That’s where the horrendous remorse and self hate and self judgement etc come into the picture!!… which often times leads to the self harming behaviour because the pain associated with knowing what ive done (OR, even things I haven’t done but have somehow twisted in my mind to being my fault thus taking ownership of it….. until someone can convince me that I had nothing to do with that after all!!!), that pain is intense and enormous that i cant manage it… it is like the pain drowning me…. sufforcating me!!… so i need to find a way to release some of it…. resulting in cutting myself or some other form of self harm.

        It’s known after all that physical pain is far easier to manage than emotional?!!! Lol.

        So yes…. I know I personally can openly say that I’ve seriously hurt others…. but yes, saying that doesn’t mean I like this fact in any way, shape or form!!

        Cheers MKCoyr!! 😉

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  20. That is a two fold question. At the time I was spending thousands of dollars of the family money on me. I didn’t care. Marital affairs I always had one in my marriage. I could not feel what I was doing to him. There was another side of me that took very good care of him. He stayed because he wanted my 2 kids to have a normal parent at all times in there life. He is actually one of my best supporters. He has taught me what forgiveness is. If I had any indication what i was doing would be so painful I would not have done it. Unfortunate I was truly in survival mode exibiting all 9 BPD traits. He was unaware of some of the affairs. He understands now that it was done from the ill part of me and that I would never repeat this mistake again.

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    1. Thank you for breaking that down to me SII. Most of this is really new to me so I’m learning a lot. The narcissisism part isn’t because I started educating myself more upon learning that my husband is one. But BPD I though just meant split personalities. . Kind of like a Gemini.. 🙂 But omg! I have learned so much from this site that I am unknowingly diagnosing people. . Ha ha. My sister and I was drinking wine and after her 4th glass, she just started crying. I sat there stunned and thought “oh shit, she’s bipolar, let me grab my purse and car keys and get the hell out of here” lol. No pun intended. . 🙂

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      1. Hey MKCoy,
        I wrote a blog entry not to long ago and it actually spoke about what you just mentioned… The seeming like split personalities!!! So I just thought I would copy and paste the part that addressed this for you in an attempt to hopefully provide some insight for you!!! I do hope that you can get something out of this:

        “………I have this friend ive been getting to know that I met through recovery recently (addictions….. story for a whole other day!!! Hahaha 😉)…. the other week, she made the comment to me… “how many CJ’s have I met now??… There is the ‘recovery CJ’ who is sweet and shy and scared to say the wrong thing, there is the ‘Joker CJ’, then the ‘Nympho CJ’, then the Cutter CJ – who we need to murder…. that b*tch has gotta die!!….”. This was then followed up later that very evening with signs of Possesive CJ, Agressive CJ, then eventually severely remorseful and self deprecating CJ!!! They are obviously not multiple personalities quite literally (otherwise i would not be writting to you about BPD now, would I?!! lmfao!! 😆)…. however this is acurate of the intensity of what I feel and what I display…. even more so now than any other time in my life!! (I was on Anti-D’s and Anti-psychotics from the age of about 12/13….. the specific drug may have changed a number of times during this period of time however there was ALWAYS an Anti-D of 1 sort on board – usually of the SSRI family… then most of the time from about 17/18 onwards, and Anti-psychotic too. The aim, to help cope with the intense severe lows of course, as well as emotional regulation in general…. something thats extreamely challanging for me!! I hate this much of the time too!! I know how “full-on” i can be for others…. outright sufforcating at times!!!… but my motives or reasons are not exactly “fuel” based per se). These emotions are so extreme and intense that it can be like communicating with an entirely different person at times…. all the way down to even “how” i write quite literally. (Joker and Nympho CJ… they have much more flare to them and you can almost feel the life jumping of the page at you…. this assesment is based on what i can gather anyhow lmfao…. cutter and sad CJ are very short in their communications…. quite often no more than a few words to a reply. Possesive/Agressive CJ…. F*CK LOADS of caps and colourful language of a different kind to Joker/Nympho hahahaha!!). So yes…. its certainly extreamely intense too for said person up high on pedestal (**Or ANYONE else that is in close proximity to us and our life!!**)…. which im sure is great for a Narc who enters a realm with us…. in some ways anyhow!!… We will almost kill them with the potency and excessive levels of full intake!! Haha! They are almost always assured to be on the recieving end of some form of emotion from us…. near 24/7…. and always in the extreme!!…………:

        So yea?!! lmfao!!….. As I said… I hope this could maybe shed some light on what you said about the split personalities!!!

        Cheers!! – CJ

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  21. You are welcome Cj…I am pleased to have conversed with and help you when you were going through the throes of the return of the Narcissist in your life. I know how vital it is to have someone listen and to hear you and help you as you struggle through all the emotions and ways in which to proceed to escape abuse. Being heard and feeling supported is invaluable. Being emotional and feeling safe expressing your self is important In the healing process.
    Now that you have successfully achieved no contact and are moving forward, now you too can help others In their battles and struggles to gain insight and healing. The ideal is to perpetuate hope and healing against manipulation and abuse. From an advocate standpoint and many years in the care and health profession, it was difficult for me to be the one to seek help for what I was unaware that was occurring In my relationship. Caring, supporting. Healing and helping others, serves to heal ourselves as well. We, collectively are measures that can mend many hurts to those who seek solace from such pain. Having others understand ones pain and situation reduces the barriers of stigma and shame.

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  22. HG, thanks for repeating the scenario. I appreciate it and everything that you do. My heart will be racing but I will have you and your voice in my head the whole time. Thanks for being here to help all of us.

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