Cheers! The Narcissist and Alcohol

 

 

 Image result for picture of an alcoholic

Alcohol is a pervasive drug. A Bloody Mary prior to lunch, a liquid lunch to conduct business, afternoon drinks because it feels like skipping school, drinks straight from work which turn into a session, celebratory drinks for a birthday, a deal done well, an anniversary or just because it is Friday. Drinks at the golf club, prior to the big game, at the BBQ, at the funeral wake, a night cap, a toast, a cheeky snifter before heading home, one for the road, a hair of the dog to shift the hangover. Drink is everywhere and is deemed socially acceptable despite the misery that its excessive consumption causes.

What part does alcohol play in the narcissist dynamic? I do not mean the occasional drink with an excellent meal or the social beers in a bar with friends, the regulated and moderate drinking which does not bring with it problems. I am referring to alcoholism, where there is a reliance and a dependence on alcohol. How does that factor into the narcissistic dynamic?

At the outset it is necessary to distinguish between the alcoholic who is a not a narcissist and the narcissist who is an alcoholic. This is important because narcissism and alcoholism actually share similar traits.

–         There is the deceit that is involved in engaging in excessive drinking and engaging in narcissistic behaviour;

–         Both have sufferers who lack any insight that they have a problem;

–         Both require the manipulation of other people to achieve their aim. The narcissist manipulates to gain fuel, the alcoholic manipulates to drink.

–         Both engage in telling lies on a repeated basis about what they have been doing, where they have been, how much they have had to drink, whether they have had a drink;

–         Both result in selfish behaviour;

–         Other people find themselves being put second on a repeated basis to the needs of either the narcissist or the alcoholic;

–         Both engage in switching behaviour, being pleasant and likeable one moment and then suddenly abusive; and

–         The pursuit of the end game (fuel/drink) becomes the sole concern of the relevant individual

 

Accordingly, the behaviours of the narcissist and the alcoholic appear most similar. The alcoholic may present with narcissistic traits (as described above) but a sober alcoholic will see those narcissistic traits fall away to reveal that he or she is an alcoholic but not a narcissist. The addition of alcohol to this individual causes them to become narcissistic but they are not a narcissist.

The narcissist however who is also an alcoholic may stop drinking but the narcissism will remain. Indeed, there are many occasions where a victim will realise that they are involved with an alcoholic but they will not realise that this person is actually a narcissist who is also an alcoholic since alcoholism is far more readily identifiable than narcissism.

Narcissism leads to alcoholism. Not in every instance. I am not an alcoholic. I like to drink, in fact I enjoy it very much and I can consume significant amounts but I do not become blind drunk because I do not want to lose control. I have seen the narcissist who is an alcoholic and that is my Uncle Robert. His aged frame and bitterness are a clear testament to the aging that comes with a lifetime of downing his first gin and tonic at 11am and not stopping until the stupor arrives sometime after 9pm. Watching him as I was younger, observing his behaviours arising from his drinking (and later understanding that this was a layer upon his rampant narcissism) this served as a useful warning to me to ensure that I used drink for my purposes and did not allow it to consume me. I am fortunate I have that self-control and discipline, since many of our kind do not.

Alcoholism is a symptom of a certain mind set and narcissism is a mindset which lends itself to alcoholism occurring. Narcissists are creatures of addiction. We are addicted primarily to fuel. This is our drug, but being this way also means that we have a susceptibility to other addictive behaviours. This is why we engage in taking recreational drugs, shop with complete disregard for the financial repercussions, engage in workaholism, gamble and drive like maniacs. Not all will be present but there is a propensity for our kind to engage in these kind of behaviour because of our vulnerability to addiction.

The traits of our narcissism lend themselves to fostering alcoholism. Not only are we prone to addictive behaviour per se, the existence of these traits means that we become even more vulnerable to alcoholism occurring.

  1. Our magical thinking, our sense of superiority and omnipotence means that we believe that we can deal with alcohol better than the “little people”. We can drink more, we can handle that drink better and we can drink all manner of different types.
  2. The broad range of types of alcohol, the rich and varied culture that accompanies appeals to us as we show off our knowledge about it. The Cerebral Narcissist can boast about his extensive knowledge about particular wines or whiskies. The Somatic can brag about how much he has spent on a magnum of champagne and the Elite will do both.
  3. Our hunting grounds for our victims invariably involve the consumption of alcohol. The Somatic Narcissist who find his prey in the night club and amidst the chrome and neon lights of upmarket bars is going to be exposed to alcohol repeatedly.
  4. Our lack of accountability means that we can drink when we want, with who we want, where we want and we do not suffer the consequences. We can drink at lunchtime before making a presentation and believe we are immune to any such repercussion. We will take the wheel of a car having consumed alcohol because the laws are not applicable to us. We will not suffer any downside from drinking, we are a super man and able to cope with the toxins we are pouring into our throats.
  5. The desire to be centre stage. The provision of alcohol acts (at first) as an accelerant to our grandiose behaviour, our sense of showing off and performance and therefore slugging it down as we hold court in a bar, show off with our dancing and engage in our flirtations all assist ensuring that we are at centre stage and remain there.
  6. Blame-Shifting One. You make us drink. If you did as we wanted you to, then we would not be forced to have to drink to numb ourselves from the tedium that you cause. If you loved us properly we would not embrace the bottle. It is your fault that we drink so much.
  7. Blame-Shifting Two. The repercussions and consequences of drinking are your fault as well. If you had not made me leave the car after I had been drinking, it would not have a got a ticket. The final warning, I received because I was drunk on the job was down to you making me go into work because we need the money (even though you begged me to stay at home). Our abusive behaviour to people when drunk is down to you making us that way. You should have stopped us.
  8. Refuge. The consumption of alcohol by our kind allows us to take refuge. The Mid-Ranger who is innocuous turns into a raging Elvis impersonator as his grandiosity soars through the repeated application of drink. Drinking allows our kind to become ebullient, impressive and charismatic as it bridges the gap between what we really are and what we want the world to see. Alcohol removes the shackles which this cruel world seeks to impose on us and allows us to be who we want to be and who we want the world to see. We are freed of the terror of rejection since nobody can resist us when we are buoyed by this alcoholic uplift. The whisperings of the Creature are silenced by the pouring of another glass. How marvellous alcohol is to allow us to be what we want to be and to take away all the other concerns, limitations and problems that plague us.
  9. Removal of the mask. The lower functioning of our kind find a sense of relief in no longing needing to adopt a mask but rather allow the mask of alcohol and drunkenness to enable them to show what they are really like without fearing for the repercussions of rejection and criticism.
  10. Alcohol is a fuel enabler. It allows our kind to become better and more brilliant and in turn gather the fuel with greater ease, whether this is through impressing someone with confident conversation, sparkling wit and repartee of the descent into abusive behaviour as time wears on and the drink mounts up.

 

The fact that so many traits of ours are geared towards the consumption of alcohol and the fact that this consumption enables us to achieve our goals with greater apparent ease added to the fact that we have an inherent susceptibility towards addiction for the reason explained above, means that this cocktail increases considerably the risk that a narcissist will be an alcoholic.

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220 Comments

  1. Hi there…
    I have a plethora of issues I somehow feel responsible for. Perhaps that is the four years spent with a low spectrum, narcissistic, alcoholic. I will spare most of the details… The thing I cannot for the life of me is how to respond when I am told…”you are being emotional, crazy, you need a few days to calm down, I’m busy, I love you…” Every time I have a valid concern. Request for time spent with me instead of god only knows who… Not to mention, it is all painful… I can’t bare the rejection. I have been the “ONLY” person to wipe his ass, listen to his complaints, made sure he’s not driving, picking up his messes… I’m actually worried that if I leave, no one will take care of him. That frightens me… It never dawned on me that there was a pathological reason for this behavior. That even makes me feel more obligated to stay! And guilty for trying to leave…

    1. Sara
      My husband was an alcoholic also. You shouldn’t feel guilty for trying to leave. Your leaving him might be the best thing for him. Often alcoholics will never sober up as long as there is someone there to hold everything together. If he’s left totally on his own, with no one to enable his drinking, that may be what he needs to pull his act together.

      Have you been to AlAnon meetings and read the Blue Book? If not, I’d advise you to. AlAnon is a lot like this blog. Lots of others who’ve gone thru what you have and are supportive. So much of healing is realizing that we are not alone.

  2. I was replaced and discarded after 20 years of marriage and a year of sobriety. Of course I’m reading about underlying pathology now. Thanks for writing this.

  3. Writing a novel with an alcoholic narc as a character. This has been every helpful. Thanks so much for sharing your experience – best of luck in your recovery.

  4. I am just now coming to terms with divorcing my alcoholic husband. I actually just wrote a post writing (most) of our story and it struck how much I looked past narcissistic behaviors then later dismissed it as the alcohol. Now after I refused to go back he is living with another girl and it is still my fault and I broke his heart. We have only been separated for four months. He also wants to bring our girls into his home (our old home) he shares with her 50% of the time when he commutes about 4 hours five days a week. Thank you for helping me realize more into his mind and not feel like I could have saved my family. You just pieced together a lot of pieces I wouldn’t have seen!

  5. Some of the above comments discuss brain anatomy. It’s sort of my hobby these days, figuring out brain biology from behavior.( I’m not a professional or anything though.)

    So to continue: alcoholics and narcissists have another brain anatomical issue in common: disrupted uncinate fasciculus, right hand side.

    A white matter wiring disconnect. The empathy module is unplugged.

    Reference is Craig et al., 2009 and papers citing this (sry on my phone don’t have the link). There are similar studies for alcoholic brains showing similar brain damage, in addition to more generalized brain damage in alcoholics.

    This is the white-matter wiring that connects gray matter, and goes from the limbic-emotional part of the brain to the frontal lobes in charge of moral reasoning (among other things). P/Ns are probably born this way, and alcoholics burn out. Either way, it’s tough to regrow new connections.

    The disconnect only on the right hand side.

    The *left* uncinate fasciculus is thought to relate to the use of words and language and communicating.

    So: if the right hand side is atrophied, is the left hand side double-dosed?

    Mother nature finds compensatory mechanisms. Like blind people have heightened senses in other ways.

    Some Ns (in whose orbit I’m in) enjoy using language. Could a left-side white matter super connection be how they are so charming initially?
    Just a theory.

    (And thank you HG for your writing, I’m hooked.)

  6. My ex first husband, a diagnosed narcissist/sociopath/psychopath alcoholic, was inpatient at a 28 day detox and then another 28 day psych ward, at the place named after a certain republican presidential first lady.

    I call it the “shuffling uncle” phase. Maybe it’s the biology of having alcohol removed, maybe it’s because you can’t bullshit a bullshitter and the other clients called him on his shit.

    But he seemed to be empty. No person was in there. He was a bundle of anxious GABA receptors wandering around in a bathrobe, drinking grapefruit juice. He was totally docile, compliant, and just vacant. Like a disgusting ghost.

    In a couple weeks, he got his act together. And his behavior toward me was worse than before. Rehab upped his game. I liked him better sedated.

    (The doctors there diagnosed him as “lacking the full range of human emotion,” and having a cluster B, although I couldn’t get them to say the N word. They wanted to release him. I told the shrinks there I was relying on their judgment that when they released him, he wouldn’t hurt himslf, or me, or anyone else, and they kept him another 3 weeks.

    He claimed victimhood, how he “decided to address his issues,” and how cruel I was to not show up for family day (in the Californian desert, in August, at like 120 F, and I was in Maui anyway).

    The personages of his rehab graduating class are on TV or in the entertainment blogs or dean at the ivy league school or wherever. 6 star rehab=red flag?

      1. Hi Indy,

        Nope, not a military man. How does he sound like your ex? Did he go to rehab?

        (I ask because I was discarded about a month ago by an ex British army N/alcoholic, and the military thing was a pretty good mask.)

        The ex husband was executive suite corporate, which may be a red flag in itself :/

        1. My ex was in the military and an alcoholic. He went to several expensive as well as less expensive rehabs (including one in CA). I could tell he learned several things in therapy that made him a better manipulator, unfortunately. I could also tell that it was when he was sober that his narcissistic manipulations were more cutting and cunning. He also lied about everything big and small, like for sport. Addicts usually lie more about use of their substance, though it is not so cut and dry either….. It is hard to tell if someone is manipulative because of addiction or because of narcissism when they have both. I saw that when an addict/alcoholic is not a narcissist and are recovering, they are actually less toxic and less self absorbed when in proper recovery. When they have both, it seems when they are clean, they are just as manipulative or even more cunning then when actively practicing addiction.

  7. I completely get the whole addiction thing, my ex went to rehab twice. The second time he was actually diagnosed as a narcissist. It seems most are Alcoholics, prescription pill poppers and chronic masterbators…

  8. I often wondered about alcoholism and narcissism, and how to tell the difference. Some alcoholics can be so very narcissistic but when not drinking be a totally different person. Good information!

  9. This piece is so what I have pieced together and it is a brilliant truth, HG not taking anything from you but being extremely precognitive I delved a little deeper and so much connected the dots at the time. During a royal commission into children/youth in detention it all made so much sense. FAS is a very misunderstood spectrum syndrome and what came out from key speakers was nothing short of shocking but deeply troubling as what I had given thought to was again manifest after the fact.

    Detailed and reliable evidence supported the notion of not only alcohol being harmful to the developing embryo but that the added experience of abuse in mothers combined with very minute amounts of alcohol have unequivocally come through to the child as behaviour/s on a spectrum identified as FAS and the child does not have the physical features attributed to being identified as a FAS baby/toddler/juvenile/adult.

    Back to the nature/nurture debate and one that I shall continue to grapple with for the rest of my days.

    Great post HG and I could write on this topic forever!

    1. Hi PurpleRibbon!!
      FAS, I used to work with folks in research on fas here in the states on it. You didn’t happen to hear Dr Claire Coles and Dr Julie Cable? They are amazing in fas work!! Yes nature versus nurture … They are never ever in action alone. Very very complex! Do you do work in FAS? Or in prenatal exposure, teratology, toxicology, Child development? Another passion of mine 💜💜💜

      1. Hi Indy- Amazing contributions by both Coles & Kable and their dedication and research projects outstanding! I don’t work in FAS but seek further understanding into such 🙂 Combined with a large percentage of those that tested positive to a moderate degree of hearing loss our royal commission into the appalling treatment of youths in detention reflected our great ignorance around FAS. What came out of the RC is embarrassing for me as a white Australian and the indigenous connections I have the respect from is because I could not nor wanted to shy away from what is absolutely atrocious and each one of us in this county ought to feel some sense of obligation to educate ourselves but that will not happen!

        1. What type of work do you do with the RC? It is wonderful to hear there are advocates for those in youth detention and the disproportionate mistreatment of indigenous populations. Very commendable, tips hat.
          Indeed, Dr Coles and Kable are brilliant, travel around the world to inform other countries of FAS and its impact on behavior, including high impulsivity and aggression in some due to brain differences combined with other factors, I worked n their lab for a few years here in Atlanta and have much respect for them. My first introduction to teratolgy and behavior was in undergrad with work on other exposures (Accutane, horrible effects on embryos and fetuses) which led to my interest n FAS. So many environmental and medication prenatal exposures have impact that we do not know of to this day….one of my concern is also all the pesticides and it’s affect on our population as a whole and which ones may play a role in the development of other disorders.

          So glad t see such passion about such a needed area 😊

          1. I am excited about the RC and believe me there is so much that has been hushed already. There was a deliberate cut in streaming during a very awkward moment and there have been many of these including the evidence given about the air-conditioning that did not exist during the heatwaves and particularly where Dondale is located and climate. In realty the evidence is overwhelming and very damaging not just for the state but for Australia as a whole. Potentially the RC inquiry has opened up something that has been tightly concealed for who knows how long and how many victims! We speak of the abuse through the churches and yet right under our nose we have the same historical record of repeating crimes against a minority. Our leaders speak of punitive measures for refugees and sending the boats back yet unless indigenous we white australians have our birthrights yet it was our forefathers that arrived here as convicts! Your interest in pesticides is very timely! So much to do and so little time I am afraid wrt that..:( Off to bed, near 3.00am. Thanks for sharing 🙂

      2. Due to pressure from the media and other organisations the live webcast of Dylan Vollers testimony will shake and move many. A late decision was confirmed to have his testimony webcast tomorrow.

  10. Im not sure why everyone is making a fuss about the word retard. It is just a word that Al obviously likes to call the narcs just as HG likes to refer to us as the word appliance. So in Al’s world narcs are retards. In HG’s world im a kettle or a stove. 😂 Even more offensive to some ppl out there as appliances dont have brains at all.
    I personally dont take offense to the ” words” used as its some peoples way of getting their message across

  11. Why would you go on time out, SA/00? I actually enjoy getting a good debate going, even if we do not agree on this one perspective. I can agree to disagree. Hopefully not due to this discussion.
    Peace? (Though if you use the r word, I’ll have to kick your tough ass jk 😉

    1. Indy, only if you kiss and make up after are you allowed to kick my arse. I like to kiss and I do it well. >

    1. Hi SA,
      I realize it has only been a recent development in removing the word n the law above. And, from diagnostic manuals as well (Diagnostics an Statirical Manual, Fifth edition)…..after a very long fight for disability advocates for MANY years prior as it takes time to reflect in law. That was not my point. My point, originally to AL statement above referencing narcicist as retarded mixed with bran information and percentage data. I took offense to this is it is a misrepresentation.

      I get what you are saysing, words are words and we can use them hatefully or own them and be empowered by them. Cunt, bitch, whore etc can be owned by women because that is us who it referenced. Men who use it are a different story….”Retard” is not a word you can own, it’s not yours. It has historical significance and prejudice against disabled people with cognitive impairments. Like the N-word in the African-American population, Caucasians have no place to use it. Same deal. You msg not agree with this perspective, and this s fine. It’s my view.

      However, I have said my peace on my views on this term. I am sure there are folks that do not agree, that’s fine, I just needed to say my peace. This word, for me, is offensive and clinically inaccurate.

      Sometimes a word isn’t just a word.

      1. I am reading a book titled What the F. by Benjamin K. Bergen It is all about our language and words that are used in different ways. I just started it.

        I recall, as a child, calling each other retarded when we did something silly. I grew up next door to a neighbor who had a severely mentally retarded daughter, Susie. We were very kind to her. We did not think of the word retarded as mentally retarded. We also grew up with sticks and stones break your bones. I guess I am uncouth. >

        1. Words change their meaning. Take gay. It once meant happy. Then it meant homosexual and has started to shift to mean something lame or laughably rubbish.
          People may not mean to be offensive when they use a word but the test tends to be how it is received by someone else, especially in the sense of actionable instances e..g race or sex discrimination which makes it rather interesting when one engages in straight talking.
          I did wonder when you opined that a word is just a word in an earlier post whether you would turn to a black person and call them a nigger and then tell them a word is just a word when they reacted unfavourably to what you said.

          1. I would not call anyone a nigger unless it is warranted. Yes, I have called a black person this. When he tried to rape me.
            Can we agree that people of this decent in America are a bit different in attitude then say in Europe or anywhere else in the world? Whilst in East Africa last summer, I was told more then once that they do not like the term African-American. The question they posed to me was “what tribe are they from, what language do they speak?”
            So when they make Polish jokes or Italian jokes and use the slurs, am I to be offended? No as my skin is thicker then this.
            This is actually a no win debate for anyone.
            As I said I hated the word cunt and I would cringe to hear it. Now I like it. The word nigger is derived from Negro/Nigra which is derived from latin meaning black. But you know all this.

  12. U.S. President Barack Obama signed S. 2781 into law on October 5, 2010.[8] Known as Rosa’s Law, it is a bill that changed references in federal law; the term mental retardation was replaced by mental disability. Additionally, the phrase “mentally retarded individual” was replaced with “an individual with an intellectual disability”.[9] Rosa’s Law was named after Rosa Marcellino, a nine-year-old girl with Down syndrome. She worked with her parents to have the words “mentally retarded” officially removed from health and education code in Maryland, her home state.[10] With this new law, “mental retardation” and “mentally retarded” no longer exist in federal health or education and labor policy. The rights of individuals with disabilities would remain the same.[8] The goal of this word removal was to remove language that may be considered hurtful from communities.

    Although you have been in the mental health field for over 20 years, it has only been 6 years that it has become tabu.

    You have to at some point, ignore words or actions you do not agree with. It is life.

    Above information is from Google.

    I at one time hated the word cunt, could not stop it so now I will embrace it.

  13. Ok, one more thing, Al, if you are going to quote medical research with percentage data on the brain, please use proper citing of said reference. We know how some research is corrupt and biased, give us the opportunity to know who and what you are quoting. And, if we are going to get technical about the brain regions, the prefrontal cortex is related to executive functioning (i.e. Planning, Impulse control, attention, etc)…..

      1. Leilani then are you sociopathic or maybe just a narcissist since you said something else . If you do have a disorder then I wonder if you have ever loved someone so much you felt like you couldn’t live without them . Maybe it isn’t to late and people like Mr Tudor will one day feel love . Everyone keeps telling me to give up and that no amount or hoping or praying or loving will make them love or feel empathy but I refuse to give up .

        1. Hello again Starr, I have loved to the highest degree- for fuel and for as long as it is provided as required. My kind of “love” is different than your “love”. Although one is able to mimic and/or portray your kind of emotions to acquire more fuel benefits, it would still be too far out of your expections. Is there hope? There is always hope depending on your definition of hope. I am practicing other alternatives. Will Mr. Tudor feel love one day? How do we know he does not feel it now?

          What exactly are you longing for from your intimate partner? And what do you perceive would make him change in your direction? Thank you for sharing your thoughts Starr and thank you HG in advance for answering the golden question, will you feel love one day?

          1. Leilani I’m afraid I shall never have another intimate partner . My ex took away my ability to fall in love again . I do not want anyone else and I will never marry or have children. He was supposed to be it for me . He was my world and I loved him . He broke me to the point where I can’t lay in the bed with another man and I only wanted him and if I couldn’t have him without him cheating and hurting me than I don’t want anyone at all . It is my fate I die alone. I have come to terms with that .

            If in a hypothetical situation I was in a relationship with Mr Tudor and I loved him in the way I loved my ex knowing what he is already and I wasn’t so damaged and broken this is what i would do .

            I would love him through the golden period and I would tell him as long as he had me he would never be lonely and I would never hurt him . If he started to devalue me and start to verbally abuse me or yell I would stay calm and not cry and I would say I don’t care I love you anyway . Through every awful and horrible thing he would do or say I would say I still love you anyway and I’m here for you . I would try my best to transfer my love into him as well . I wonder how he would react if someone handled the abuse in this manner . Maybe he would feel touched and start to open up and feel love .

          2. Starr, oh I feel your pain. I think the same way you do. I never cried in front of him and only a couple of times behind closed doors. Not because my feelings were not hurt, but cause I have a hard time showing that emotion, especially infont of people. I think the fact that I didn’t cry may have pushed him to hurt me more just to get that emotion from me that he didn’t see. I would’ve stayed knowing what he is, but like you I can not accept the cheating. He has not given me proof of doing so, but he has planted the idea there after learning what loyalty means to me. I have to keep reminding myself of what HG has preached to us… they will never be loyal to one person. Not one time have I read that there is an exception to this rule. Trust me I have looked. It is almost impossible to find someone who is not a narc to stay faithful anymore so the hope of a narc to to remain faithful is way out of reach for me. Yes I would indeed hold on and accept him for what he is, but it is impossible for me to accept cheating no matter how much I love him and want to hold on to that hope.

          3. B I cried and screamed and broke down onto the floor all he did was hold me and stare . His black eyes just stared no emotion no anything . I would gasp for air because I couldn’t breathe . I remember when he called me to his apartment saying he just got back from the hospital and he wouldn’t tell me what happened and to come quick so I’m thinking he is missing his legs or was in a car accident or something else . I ran into his apartment and he was sitting so properly on his chair . He told me to sit down and then told me that the girl he cheated on me with had chlamydia and I collapsed right there and cried so hard . He just stared . He was negative for it and so was I after we got tested . Sometimes I wonder if he made that up to see me hurt .

          4. If I may with no judgements, how do you feel pain when all is just an illusion? Please elaborate. I do not mean to sound detached and maybe I am bit butvthese emotions are nothing but illusions. I would like to learn what is in your mind as these you feel are nothing but emotions that bring you down you yourself allow?

          5. Leilani .i appreciate your questions and curiosity as to my reactions and heartbreak . This is someone who I fell in love with . I cared about him so much and he was my world . He was the reason I got up and lived my life . I knew he wasn’t normal and I knew what he was . I still chose him though . When I found out he cheated it broke me . When you imagine the person that was the love of your life getting naked and gaining physical pleasure from someone other than you is excruciatingly emotional unbearable. Love is caring about someone so much if it comes between you losing your life and then you would volunteer to save their life even if it means you perish . It’s putting yourself in their shoes every single day and understanding their journey . If they become sick with cancer if you truly love them you stay with them and help through the treatment and never leave their side or betray them . Love isn’t seeing the pretty face and body it is seeing the ugly and messed up part of someone soul and saying I’m still staying and I will never leave you or abandon you . That is what I felt for him . Unfortunately for me he abandoned me and would start making excuses why I couldn’t spend any time with him and gave me the silent treatment before I found out he met someone else. I didn’t want anyone else in my life but him and he didn’t care that he was losing me and he didn’t care that I was gone when he met her . It has been one full year since the breakup and he still hoovers and begs for me to come back . He is begging me to come back and marry him as soon as possible . I want to more than anything but I know if he abandons me or cheats again I won’t survive it this time. I do not want to feel this pain . I have no control over this depression and heartbreak. My emotions and sadness and hopelessness is out of my hands .

          6. Leilani, I believe we all feel some sort of emotion like this. It is how we process it and release it that differ. Emotion with out pain serves no purpose. We must feel the pain so we can learn and grow. The pain warns us of toxic people and unhealthy relationships, for example. It is a lot like a hot stove. How do you know the stove is hot? Because you touched it. What happened when you touched it? It hurt and caused pain. Would you touch a hot stove again? Probably not. Maybe the stove that Starr touched left her with a third degree burn. Now compare a first degree burn with a third degree burn. Emotions are definitely a hard thing to explain.

          7. B. Actually this hot stove I touched obliterated and turned me into ash . I’m still healing and I miss him so much . I would start to see little glimpses of humanity and then it’s like he would shut it down . He said if he starts to let emotion in such as love or if I were to kiss his forehead his body literally would get sick and he would get horrible migraines . It was like his physical body would reject love . People like Mr Tudor live for fuel and I lived for him . Now I’m lost and this blog is the only thing that has kept me sane kind of . My ex recently told me that I’m crazy too and bi polar after I lost it and blew up on him and he had the audacity to say we should get help together .

          8. Hi Starr,
            I have been reading your story and can feel your pain. I am so sorry that he did all that to you. Like you, it was the cheating that I knew I wasn’t going to be able to handle. That was the worst for me. I came to the realization that my ex was going to continue to seek out others. HG and his words confirmed it for me. I didn’t want to leave but I knew this was something I couldn’t accept for the rest of my life. I hope you start to feel better. I know some days are better than others❤️🍎

          9. Oh Starr, I am sorry for that hurt you had to take in. I could not even imagine how painful that would be to hear. Was that the first you knew of him cheating? I really don’t know how I would react if mine would have told me directly that there was someone else. I’m actually surprised he hasn’t done that.

          10. B ….. I learned of his cheating because I hacked into all of his social media accounts . There was a girl and I saw they were chatting and hanging out so I confronted him and he proceeded to tell me she was just a friend he was going to set his other male friend up with and I had nothing to worry about . Of course I didn’t belive him so I messaged her and told her to call me ASAP I have her my number and she did . It turns out he met her on Facebook they met up at a club and he brought her back to his place and they had sex . All of my stuff was over there and he said that my stuff was his exs who hadn’t came back to get it yet . Then I confronted him over the phone and threatened to come over there and beat his ass while all of his friends were there and he than admitted what he did . I broke up with him and he has been hoovering ever since . It has been one year and he has yet to get into another relationship . Although he did also sleep with my co worker and lied about it a week after the breakup and he ended up sleeping with the girl he cheated on me with again and tried to lie about it once again . That last lie was it for me . I still love him . I always will that will never change and I forgive him for everything . I’m just not going to sacrifice my life to being there for him while he cheats and hurts me over and over .

  14. @ STARR to answer your question regarding Narcs and childhood- The human brain is 90% developed by age 6. Medical research has indicated that a Narcs brain has a thinner layer around the frontal cortex, as well as incorrect brain activity in the pre-frontal cortex (in other words all Narcs are retarded from age 7)

      1. I think that people think narcissists and sociopath are quote “retarded” this is not my personal view but think about it this way

        You are a human being . You have family . You have friends and people who love you . You have money and probably are not struggling to eat . You have an amazing life except you push people away and hurt them and when you find a good caring woman who will never hurt or cheat on you then you abuse them instead of being flattered and thankful someone has chose to love you over everyone else in the world . Hurting and pushing away and abusing and using everyone who loves you and cares about your life virtually makes no sense and it’s logical thus you are retarded for choosing to manipulate rather than cherish love and enjoy and be thankful for love .

        I personally believe that as a child you could love and feel and maybe even have empathy but your horrible mother who should be ashamed of herself brainwashed you into think you have to be perfect and showing emotion is weakness and love is weakness . Which in reality emotion and love shows strength and resilience . To watch your wife get terminal cancer and see her hair fall out and watch her slowly die but stay by her side and love her through it all and. It cheat or stray and holding her hand and crying as she takes her last breath is strength and is the opposite of weakness . It takes an amazing and special person to do that and that to me is the definition of perfect . Honesty and love we all we need . Perfect doesn’t mean knowing it all or a degree or how much money you have perfect is how you love someone and how much good you do in the world .

        1. I detest the R word and refuse to use it. Not only is it a stigmating word, it is also no longer a clinically relevant diagnosis since the arrival of the DSM5, given the fight many disability activists have battled. As a mother and grand mother of a four year old with Autism, a professional in the field if developmental disabilities for 20 years and mental health provider, I implore society to stop using this hateful word as a description of anyone for any reason, including yourselves.
          Further, often times people with a variety of disorders, including narcicism and sociopathy are actually quite intellectually brilliant. Emotional intelligence is typically lower, though often navigated around using their sharp intellectual coping. That is why many are fooled and misdiagnose, including those of us in the field.

          Off the soap box now. Deep breaths…..

    1. I think I’m retarded too because I fell for it and I failed to see the real him . The red flags were there but I ignored them . When I realized what he was I still stayed because I cared about him so much . I thought I could instill my love into him and then he would start to feel it too . Unfortunately I dont think it works that way .

      1. Starr, you cannot help something if its brain development (frontal cortex) has stopped at age 7. It is like trying to make a disabled person walk again. You gave it a try-well done to that. But if you understand that a Narc isn’t the brightest star in the sky, and never will be, it makes it easier on you.

        1. AL you bring up a good point “It is like trying to make a disable person walk again.” I would encourge you to read the story of Lara Masters before you use that statement as a comparison to your theory.

          At the age of 10 Laura was struck down by a rare spinal disorder leaving her wheelchair bound by age 14. The doctors said her condition would continue to deteriorate with no explanation to why. By the age of 24 she was almost completely paralyzed and was told there was nothing more the doctors could do for her. At the age of 28 she started treatment with a new therapist… a Mind Instructor. Now, incredibly, she is walking.

          http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-133149/After-14-years-stuck-wheelchair-Ive-learnt-walk-again.html

          I never doubt the ability of one’s mind.

          1. B- the ‘rare spinal disorder’ is not the same as the permanent non-development of the brain. It is however, a good story to hear. One cannot think that ‘some day, with the ‘right therapy’ the brain of a Narc will suddenly begin developing past that of a 7 year old. Call it what we will- Intellectual disability, neurological retardation-that facts are there- Narcs would fall under the syndromatic I.D- as other medical conditions are present. Narcs usually have a combination of the following medical disorders-High blood pressure, High cholesterol, Migraines, Rheumatoid arthritis, stomach ulcers, heart disease, diabetes and a sleep disorder (Familial advanced sleep phase disorder). On the Intellectual disability signs and symptoms, Narcs have the following- Difficulty learning social rules, difficulty with memory skills, difficulty with problem solving skills, lack of social inhibitors and delays in the development of adaptive behaviors. With cognitive development, the Narc is ‘stuck’ in the Preoperational phase-where animism and egocentric thinking develop.

            In response to Indy- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_disability https://www.wikigenes.org/e/gene/e/121278.html https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27129440 http://www.psypost.org/2016/09/pathological-narcissism-associated-reduced-frontal-cortex-thickness-brain-44918

          2. I don’t have any of the medical disorders you refer to. I have difficulty falling asleep and do not sleep for long but when I do sleep, I am asleep.
            I know social rules, I choose to ignore them when it suits me. I have an excellent memory, although I will pretend I have not when it suits me. I solves problems repeatedly. I agree with the social inhibitors point. I can see how some of these may well apply to a lesser but not me. I am in rude health.

          3. HG, I haven’t known any narcicists with all those disorders either. My ex had the sleep issue and impulse control stuff. He could read a room like a pro, could sell you a sandbox in the Sahara. Smart dude, meteorologist.

            I wonder, and Al, you could let me know, if the disorders you are listing are from separate small number studies. The key in research is if it is replicable and valid and generalizable to a broader spectrum of narcicism. I’m challenging you Al, not to pick on you but to push you in your hypotheses on narcissism before you come to an end result.
            Even science is biased, depending on the resources you select and the search terms you use.

            Here are only a few references on plasticity of the dorsal lateral prefrontal cortex.
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3753223/

            http://pubman.mpdl.mpg.de/pubman/faces/viewItemOverviewPage.jsp?itemId=escidoc:2332435

            https://www.hindawi.com/journals/np/2016/5760141

            Further, intellectual disability (formally known as mental retardation) is not an appropriate diagnosis generally for a narcicist. I evaluate intellectual disability every day as my job as I work on a diagnostic team. I know this diagnosis by heart.
            DSM 5 criteria:
            1. FS IQ less than 70
            2. Delayed adaptive skills.

            Still stand by your state Al that narcicists are ID?

          4. Thank you Indy and also Al, I do enjoy a debate and especially since my kind are the centre of the discussion. There is only intellectual capability from where I am sitting.

          5. Al, thank you for the references as now I can appropriately challenge you and agree with you simultaneously. First, narcicism is not equivalent to “retardation” as a diagnosis and they are not associated either. Retardation is an IQ below 70 and indeed “mental retardation” is used as a term internationally still to describe reduced cognition until revisions coming soon (as you cited in your reference). However your use of it in this post was clinically and colloquially inappropriate and inaccurate.

            With regards to your science reference to reduce brain development in the dorsal lateral prefrontal cortex, when under development occurs in that area it does not equal “retardation”. It can result in ADHD, poor impulse control, poor executive functioning in some. Plus, there is sufficient brain plasticity up through adulthood to refute your claims that brain development stops. (I will get sources if you like). A sample of less than 200 college people is small and needs to be replicated before its touted as truth. Further, human research is messy as its not a controlled environment so college students may not be representative of all narcissists.

            If you wanted to tell Starr not to wait around for someone to change, just say it like that. You are right narcissists have poor prognosis in general when it comes to therapy, however if there is motivation and there are cognitive resources, anything is possible. I personally wouldn’t wait for it though when you promote this fatalistic belief about narcissism and the brain, no wonder they don’t seek help. Or anyone else with brain based issues.

      2. Hi Starr, your awareness is amazing. You have perfected your 9 key emotions. It is why you have no judgements of a narcissist. Codependents and empaths are judged to be overly and abnormally (retardation) under developed emotionally as they split between 5- 15 yrs of age. My oldest empathy Sister is a renowned surgeon at USC who still swears that we are not our mind and body. She is my number one 2nd appliance. We are all learning from one another. I have no judgements on the word “retard”.

          1. Hello Starr, I have over looked and passed your question. Thank you for asking. I am something else.

      3. Starr- keep this in mind. Now that you have had personal experience with a Narc, you are now able to spot a Narc, and if needed, use the same manipulation techniques on them (it is great to press their buttons, and see them running for the hills). Remember that somewhere out there in this world, at this moment, is the higher form Psychopath, using and abusing a Narc in the same manner you were. Lastly- the world of normal humans do not have any use for a Narc, but a Narc will always need the world to its dying day.

        1. Again Al, I would point out that I don’t regard the psychopath as being of a higher form. There is no doubt that Lesser and Mid Range Narcs will be periodically abused by a Greater but the fuel provision is not as satisfying as that received from an empathic individual so there is a less of a reason for a narc to tangle with a narc.

  15. The more I read the clearer everything becomes. All we did was drink. Cases of wine and vodka in the freezer. Fell in love with bloody Mary’s. But as I see things now, it makes perfect sense. He has become fat and last I saw, unhappy. I left almost six weeks ago and have decided to only drink on the weekends if all right now. I love waking up sober and giving my all at work. Alcohol was also the cause of my assault as she drank for three days in a row while he was off work. I am getting a great education here.

  16. I am glad that you addressed the alcohol factor. Ironically,my beloved narc was the most loving and affectionate under the influence.That is when he could open up and show his feelings. It was when he was sober that he would exhibit his worst narc traits. But,when he was drunk, the love was poured out in spades. Bewildering…Any thoughts?

  17. Great piece! Yes, the NTEAN was indeed proud of the drinks he’d concoct.

    He’d research the internet for inventive cocktails to capture me *yet again* (I was the Pirate Wench..).

    Part of his charm & charisma schtick…

    He lied about basically everything, expected mindreading, of course. Eventually also found out he was a heavy pot user, which I cannot do because of my job, & it’s not my thing, anyway.

    Oh, and he kept giant bags of prescription pills in gallon ziplocks in his hydrator! I couldn’t believe it…wait, yes I could…

    At least he didn’t try to spend my money on that, too, although he was an internet shopaholic, for things, women, dogs, Any bargain, you name it — the black hole truly was insatiable! But, you already know that —

    Just got tired of the lies, unpredictability, volatility, and nonsense. He was far worse to handle than any recovered alcoholic I’ve ever known, and we know their brains were developmentally arrested even post-recovery.

    The saddest part is more than once he sounded & acted not just as a depressive narc but also like he was drifting off into early dementialand — I’m talkin some bizarre, isolating behaviors here.

    I do feel sad for this Uncle Bob, but he *wanted* to be alone, only with his dogs, drink, drugs, & bong, off in never-never-land. It looked really sad being him; he was *offended* by my being happy each day & choosing to do so and live that way.

  18. Another great article!

    The N formerly in my life habitually drank about half a bottle of wine every evening/night. In over a year, I never saw him drinking less – except once, the day before we broke it off! On that day, we had gone for a long bicycle tour of about 30 km. After that tour, I was really tired but he was – well, he was k.o. and totally done, lok! He went to bed in the afternoon and slept right through the night until the next morning. That, I believe, was the first and only time he didn´t drink in the afternoon and evening when I was with him.

    To be fair, I have to add that I did not live with him and that we had a long-distance relationship (250 km). We met approx. every two weeks and spent one or two days (during the week since I regularily travel to his town for professional reasons) sometimes a prolonged weekend together, but never more than that. So he may have stayed totally sober on any other day when I wasn´t with him – although I have my doubts about that;-)

    I once addressed the issue and asked him whether he thought drinking was an issue for him, since he often blamed his ex(-wife) for drinking too much: “she drinks half a bottle or a whole bottle every night!”

    “- Well, but you do too, don´t you?”

    – “That´s true… but that´s different! (sic)”

    -“Ahh… alright. Do you think you could stop right away?”

    -“I don´t know. Maybe I should try. Just as with the chocolate. I stopped smoking from one day to the next, cold-turkey. Just as I stopped the dating site…(which he subscribed to again of course shortly after we broke it off). Maybe I could stop drinking the same way.”

    “- You should try. Do you think that you have a tendency to addition? Do you have an addictive personality?”

    “-Mhmmm. Yes, I have. Definitely.”

    That was one of our better conversations.

    I hope that he has or will managed to overcome his addiction to alcohol. I recently saw him on TV. He looks like a new person: younger, fresher and – what a surprise – with a beard! (He never wore a beard before in his 59 years of life, as far as I know).

    He looks good right now, at least on TV screen. I guess he is milking his fresh supply;-)

    However, it didn´t touch me in any way to see him with that “re-newed” look. It was like looking at a stranger, thinking: “OK, that man´s my type.” I still find him attractive physically, and I like the way he presents things (his intelligence shines through), but that´s about it. There is no addictive pull and no `emotional mélange´ or `ever presence´ at work any more. No idea what it would feel like if we were to meet in person once again (last time we met face to face was in June and it was OK). But it seems that after 2 years, I have totally recovered from the experience and moved on.

    For months and months, I never believed that would be possible, EVER. But it is! Keep on keepin´ on and you will get to that place of freedom, ladies;-))

    I came here today to see what HG was up to, and whether he had released his `Creature´ eBook. Hope that life is going better for all of you here, including HG!

  19. Made me understand my mum … her alcohol abuse was on repeated basis mostly when my father wasn’t around. It was well controlled by her. She is only the midrange narcissist. Alcohol and silent treatments plus triangulating me and my dad and actually anyone were her favourite weapons.

  20. Thank you for explaining this. It is still difficult to wrap arms around, but you put it in a clear form. Some people who have drinking problems have said they are narcissist. I wonder if it is really alcoholism selfish traits and will watch more when they get sober or are sober. The traits you mention that are similar between the one with NPD and one with alcoholism cloud up the waters. Not being a clinician, I can’t say for sure. The waters are cloudy on that one.

    That said. Would I love to go drinking with you? Yes. Would I love to get drunk with you? Well, we wouldn’t likely get drunk bc we’d be keeping track of our intake. I have a high tolerance though. I’ve called you cute in the past; however, I don’t think it’s something I’d say about you if you were drinking or drunk. No offense.

    Regarding school, much more daring to drink and not to skip. Our science teacher separated a few of us from the normal class. Very bizarre. We were considered HP and given extra tasks. The teacher trusted us. One day, one of the girls brought a spray perfume bottle in that was filled with whiskey. It was interesting to watch her go about the day as the bottle emptied.

    1. You are welcome 1jaded.
      You would enjoy drinking with me, I am excellent company and a delightful drinker. Plus my local bar would make you feel very welcome as the regulars love me in there, so they would love you too.

      1. As a side note, it’s most interesting that alcohol is addictive and very dangerous to wean from physical dependency, some say more so than classified drugs, yet it remains unclassified.. plus the driving or operating heavy machinery while under the influence factor can injure or kill. Just useless info. It was funny. I went into a liquor store and the someone was asking the owner for a recommendation for a wine. The owner said he didn’t drink and then asked for my opinion….oh the things that make you go hmmmm.

      2. Thank you. Just as I think I’m gonna graduate and move on, you pull me in with another lesson. BTW…your mates are likely to be met with a half smile, silence or a polite answer. I don’t need love, tolerance or anything from them.

  21. Narcessism + alcoholism =DN
    I’m not Miss innocent though. I love my vodka and red wine blends…savor the flavor!!!!. But I don’t like to be out of control…just a little crazy and feeling good….but not every day and never before noon😨

    PS: DN used both blame shifters on me quite often. He Got a DWI when he was out one night without me and somehow managed to blame me and actually make me feel guilty about it.

    I realized this last time together just how bad he has gotten. Said he drank more to escape how miserable he was with current wife(the one he went back to) and without me…ha ha

    He actually admitted one night that he had a drinking problem and asked me to help him only to bring two bottles of wine home the next night…um okay?!?!

  22. Thank you so much for posting this HG. You have expanded my knowledge on alcoholism, but most importantly you answered the one thing I have been searching for. “Is he an alcoholic, or is he a narcissist? Or is he an alcoholic narcissistic?” The answer was simple and found in one sentence, “The narcissist however who is also an alcoholic may stop drinking but the narcissism will remain.” It was extremely important that I find the answer that weighed so heavy on my mind as it is the key factor. My heart is so completely broken as I let go of the hope and reach for the key. I do realize that an alcoholic who is not a narcissist is also toxic, but I know how to deal with an alcoholic and although difficult it can be treated and with treatment there is hope for a loving relationship. The alcohol was my excuse to hang on. I couldn’t give up on him until I understood him completely. The fact that he is an alcoholic is what kept me in denial to what he is as a whole. I feel completely broken and a little dead inside, not only for the loss of the love I thought I had, but for the loss of the love I will never have. He was the only person who was able to give me what I need. Something I haven’t found in anyone else and I believe the things I need can only be found in a narcissist. So I guess my chance of finding and feeling true love is about as likely as a narcissist finding and feeling true love. No pressure HG, but my hope is now in your hands. I am confident that you will be the first of your kind to break free from the demons that hold you back. These narcissistic demons that played you and stole the love from your heart so they can watch you suffer, with laughter in their voice as they pull your strings. You are not going to let them win are you HG?

    1. You are welcome B and you expressed your sentiments admirably. Will I let them win? It may not be a battle I have to fight, but if it is, HG does not lose his battles.

      1. I read this response again from another POV, and comment I made on another post, and the lightbulb went on. This isn’t something you chose, and can’t just say poof be gone. I knew that, but now I really know that. I still think and hope you can evict the creature/squatter that is living rent free in your head. I hope you don’t choose what you’ve always done. Oh and btw….you as someone who is a N are NOT re…my eyeballs turned a little laser red at that one.

        1. Good morning 1jaded, wouldn’t it be nice if it was as simple as saying “Poof be gone”. It really does make me sad that he, and others of his kind are suffering in such pain. It is ironic that we found him in search of answers and/or healing to the pain and hurt caused by one of his kind. That our healing is coming from the same place that hurt us. Fortunately for us our pain and suffering can be healed and we should feel very grateful for that. As far as Al is concerned, it is obvious she has some healing to do herself.
          Al, please educate yourself. This kind of thinking will only keep the wounds open and exposed, leaving you in a very dark place.

      2. Hi B,
        Yeah, I didn’t want to see it. I knew a little about classic narcissism prior to getting involved with my ex with both alcoholism and narcissism, though I made excuses for his ego-centric behaviors as being part of the “alcoholic personality” which is frequently talked about in AA, even when they are sober. However, as time went on, and he started doing verbal jujitsu on me, I had to start looking into it further as it was very different from others I knew that just had addiction/alcoholism. At first, I thought, well…he was in the military, perhaps it is PTSD…..then realized that it was even more when I started looking into “crazy making” behaviors. I suspected an axis 2 disorder, given his level of push-pull though wasn’t sure which. Then I found Sam V. on YouTube and knew. I was sad and ashamed. I felt so duped and so angry and sooooooo sad. When I knew, I also knew what his response would be if I said something about narcissism to him….so I never did. What’s the point in telling him if he has strong denial mechanisms already. I was determined to never be his therapist, I was his fiancé and drew that boundary, as I always do. It is not ethical to be a lover’s or friend’s or family member’s therapist. (Yes, I can shut it off and have to in order to survive and not empty out).

        Like you, I wanted him to heal…..I didn’t wish to hurt him more and I wanted him to get better as I loved him…really, I so loved him. He was brilliant, funny as hell, and sexy. He just had this other side that was too hurtful, abusive and I could not save him….I had to save myself. You, B, are saving yourself now. It takes great strength and you are here.

        So, for me, in order to get out, I talked to a therapist friend of mine who suggested HG’s book, Evil. I trusted her and this led me to this wonderful blog. I then bought several of HG’s books. They helped me resist the trauma bond created and escape. HG may not be a psychotherapist, but his techniques are rooted strongly in behaviorism(Especially Exorcism and Departure Imminent). They work.

        Hang strong, B. Love comes when you least expect it and more importantly, it comes in the form of self love….

        No Contact here since Sept 4. Left him July 4. Feeling more free each day.

        Peace and hugs,
        Indy

          1. btw, she was the one that trained me to be a therapist in my post graduate work and is an expert in PD. A true gem.

          2. Indy, you can tell that she trained you well!!!
            You and I have had to deal with a variety of therapists and specialists throughout our lives and I have found that there are very few that have had the training and knowledge that I have needed and fewer that I have trusted. You have the compassion, knowledge, and the personal experience. I am sure you are one of the best. I would bring my son to you if you were closer. lol
            That is what I think of you HG helping me here, without the compassion, of course. Lol

          3. Aw, SW. Thank you for your kind words, I am still learning….. We survivors are indeed having to become experts in this field of trauma/psychological abuse, as is HG having to become an NPD expert as well.

            Those of us that have kids and family with Autism, the journey is similar in the sense that it is hard to find a reputable expert. So, we become experts. This is why I went into the field. It makes meaning out of suffering. Anything that has a cause/meaning, is survivable (Viktor Frankl).

            Often times, the therapists learn after lots of clients come to them with similar issues. If the therapist has an open mind, they will look in many places for help, answers and further learning. It never stops, the learning never stops, nor should it.

            Yes, we have lots to thank HG for!!!!!

          4. I am finding that this a similar journey!
            You and HG are both loved and respected!❤️🍎… You both provide great services to people who need it.

        1. Thank you so much Indy for your kind words and sharing your experience with me. It really helps to hear from others who can relate. I do not find a deep connection with others very often so when I do it is devastating for me to let go. Are you familiar with INFJ personality type? I would imagine there are a few of us on here. I am learning a lot about myself as well on this journey. I see that I share many same traits as a narc. Same, but different to the core. This is what almost makes me give up on the idea of love.

          1. Hi B,
            It’s a nice feeling to be among those that get it and have been through it. The feeling is mutual. I am familiar with it and I think I tested out as this…I think….need to take it again. I’m definitely an introvert. We all have traits of narcicism in us, as it is healthy to promote self care and have confidence. It’s when it reduces empathy and involves abuse that it is considered more dangerous to others. I think we, those of us lower on the confidence scales, can learn a lot from a narcicists natural strengths. Just make sure to not get stuck in the tar pit that toxic relationships can feel like and lead to wounding.

            Peace to ya,
            Indy

    2. Dear B my sweet empathic friend,

      Your words…

      “…I believe the things I need can only be found in a narcissist. So I guess my chance of finding and feeling true love is about as likely as a narcissist finding and feeling true love.”

      …are also my feelings, I am on the same exact page as you. <3

      1. DC, I have not read entire thread as I am in a bit of a rush, but your words are my own! Exactly! But, I do not quite understand why this is the case with me… This is the major part of healing I need to do with myself, but don’t know what it entails or even how to start. But, your words are in alignment with my very own!

      2. DC, this feeling we share is a difficult one to explain or to understand by outsiders. I’m curious to know what your Briggs Meyers personality type is, if you know and don’t mind me asking?

          1. I am not surprised DC. I knew there was a reason I liked you! Your personality type is one most likely to understand and relate to my very complex and misunderstood personality 😕 I am actually in the process of gathering my thoughts on this as I have a few questions related to this topic. Thank you for sharing.

      1. I am confident 1jaded, that HG has what it takes to outsmart these powerful demons whom have control. He is well aware of what they stole from him and just how precious it is. He sees the beauty and the power it holds, in all of us. He knows it is too powerful for him take from us so he settles for generic imitations handed to him. My guess is he doesn’t settle for generic imitations and will take back what rightfully belongs to him. The authentic and real Power… LOVE

    3. Hi B,
      “The alcohol was my excuse to hang on”…..yessssss, mine too. I relate strongly. I too have had past non N alcoholic relationships and my last was both alcoholic and N. I fell hard and it was that hope that kept me.

      1. Thank you for reaching out Indy. I was fooled by the alcohol. It wasn’t until my first silent treatment that I sensed something different. I had no idea what a narcissist was at the time. I think my google search was “Why is he ignoring me?” The word Narcissist kept popping up and that’s when my search for knowledge began. I was not satisfied with my research and felt like the word “narcissist” was just a label placed on an unknown behavior. I knew the only way I could possibly understand this and connect it to the behavior I was encountering was to hear it from a true narcissis. How would I do this since everything I read told me that a narcissist will not admit what they are? By the grace of God I stumbled acrossed “Knowing the Narcissist” on facebook. I cannot express enough how grateful I am for what HG is doing. My hope was not to prove that mine is a narcissistic. My hope was to prove that he is not. I was not in search for the signs to point out the obvious, but for them to point out how he couldn’t possibly be what I feared. It is a very hard thing to accept. I am currently on silent treatment as I come to terms with this and I hope I will be completely out of denial by the time I am faced with the never ending hoover.

  23. Thank you for writing this. It relates strongly to my personal experiences with relationships wothose wth just alcoholism/addiction and the recent one that had both. You nicely teased it apart and it is consistent with what I experienced with each differently. There is much overlap indeed. The thing that made my ex more than a serious alcoholic (nearly dies on each binge which occurs every year months) was that while sober he showed low empathy, was a superb liar about everything (no just drinking) and did this for sport, and he engaged in hard core mental/psych abuse like no one I have ever been with…..when gas lighting s done with such intensity and frequency, it can produce intense anxiety that you doubt your reality and think you really are crazy. The fear I experienced was intense. I never knew the power of that s type of abuse until going through it. It was like being tortured without being touched. That is what put him above an alcoholic for me. The trauma bonds created in this recent one didn’t exist with my other relationships with non narcicist alcoholics. More stuff too, but I don’t wish to go on and on…,for my own sanity.
    Again, thanks for this piece and addressing this complex combo.

  24. I agree with Snow White that sounds delicious DC, something to try soon.
    I am a vodka kinda girl thou. Doesn’t effect me much.

    1. I used to be a shots girl…or anything with everything in it…ideally what ever will get me to the point of wildness lol… No hang overs and always fully aware. I used to be able to drink and drink and drink and never black out, never get sick and never wake with a hangover. Now I just prefer something a little less feisty because I become Harley Quinn. I like full control of my actions… getting older has its perks but not when the elixir alters your persona! 😛

  25. Did you encourage your IP’s to drink? I was never a drinker so of course my ex found that as another line in the sand to cross. She said I needed to have fun and she would take care of it. She took me to bars and bought me drinks and conveniently filled my glass with wine when it became empty. I am a very happy drunk and she loved the attention she got from others as they watched us dance on the floor.

    1. Only in the context of enjoying social occasions, dinner, parties etc, although they rarely needed any encouragement from me. I seem to pick IPs who enjoy a gargle.

      1. Nice one your last sentence, HG! You seem to enjoy that trait in women.

        I give up on my oranges fresh only on occasions for a glass of wine or champagne (not a drink connoisseur). I’m that narcissistic, I like controlling myself, I have self discipline (not smoking, never curious, let alone recreational ones) and after the experience with my alcoholic father (thank you HG Tudor, now I know he’s not narcissist, when he’s sober he’s a different person, never aggressive, even emphatic) I dropped the same conclusions as you did from your uncle: never something or someone will have that power over me. As for shopping, I’m a woman and I have a budget, never surpassing it. Only if it’s something for the family and we need it and we all agree.

        I drink coffee twice a day (for two weeks now only once a day), I had no such addiction before giving birth but after that I needed it so badly-waking up 4 times at night, not getting any sleep alone with the baby during the day, but now I have no excuses: the boy sleeps all night. I tried black tea and it was too much for me, even with milk. If you are kind to recommend some other tea…please do, it might help me reduce coffee!

  26. I really like your post because it makes me wonder – how do you determine when someone is just an alchoholic verses a narcissist + an alchoholic? And do Narcissists drink their alcohol of choice or are more worried about the appearance of the alcohol of choice makes them look so change…like, a Matrinarc, she drinks red wine – does she do this because she likes red wine or because as a mother, wine is a classier drink that she can always say: “The doctor said it was good for my heart” neglecting the fact that a glass a day is different than a bottle a day? Or like the Somatic ordering a Bacardi and Diet coke for less calories even if he did not like how it tasted, but wanted to appear conscious of it?

    There is an image that is associated with drinking it seems in society depending on the specific role that the Narcissist takes on…but does that image apply to alcohol as well?

    1. As I wrote Sarah, the alcoholic will lose the narcissistic traits when they are sober.
      As to the type of alcohol, it is certainly the case with us Greaters that we are influenced by the appearance and the association with certain types of alcohol. Your examples are correct. A Mid-Range Somatic would be influenced in that manner as well. A Lesser does not care how it looks, he or she just wants the booze.

  27. And she curses herself for the life she’s led, rolls herself a hairy rag and puts herself to bed…”The Kinks” yes sir HG ;)… (not answering for DC but me, since age 15 lol…36 years !

  28. All the more proof that none of us should consider over drinking and “Deriving”. I started one of my letters to my spouse one time to which I entitled “Poor me, poor me, Pour me another one. Thank-You for this piece HG. Truly. I was just about to get around to asking you to write one like this or point me in the direction of this exact topic wondering if I had missed any on this subject that might have been hiding in your archive of your writings on this blog. I also have noticed other bloggers starting to ask about addiction so as usual…your timing…well you know ;).

    Many will appreciate this article of yours in particular. Disfunction occurs all over the world although geographically it is known to exist and or expected to exist in greater quantities in have not areas but the disease is not unknown everywhere in all walks of life. just like narcissism.
    My Mother that I had elluded to having started her career in the Airforce a few comments back,did not stay in. Married at 22, got out raised 3 girls and my father. She went back to work when I was 11. She had many jobs but last 26 years of her working life, she worked for the “Metro Drug Dependancy Center in our neighbourhood. Never touched a drop of booze that I ever saw all my life except at my wedding which was unintentional. My Father was also 22 when they Married and by that time drank enough for the both of them, he too left the Army shortly after marrying. He also went on to have variious jobs and in the end the last 25 years worked for himself. He was an alcholic till age 40, then he quit cold turkey. He was about to lose us all, what else was new, but this time a chord was struck either by that or inside himself. not sure which it was exactly but I guess when he decided he said be damned if he was ever going to end up drying out or asking for help from the only gig in town which was where my mother worked, that would lead everyone to know how and with who she had been living with all those years now wouldn’t it just. He never touched a drop after. He was a lessor to midrange Narcissist. When he quit drinking the other not so good qualities stayed as you described. The physical and verbal abuse and bulling to get his way toward my mother never went away. She is a codependant with narcissistic traits that like myself seem to only be successfully kept at bay by a true narcissist but we both share the same instigator gene too.
    I stated my spouses parents were both head of communications and both stayed in till retirement. Both worked in the same division. Father was mothers boss at work. Father retired first them Mother wrote exams to take over his job as head till she then retired. Both are severe narcissts although father more so. Their son, oldest of 5 boys my spouse, air cadets, & melitia and didn’t stay in. He is a cabinetmaker in the trade over 35 years now so known as of course a Master. He loved to drink more than a bit too much. much more than myself. I and many others would have considered me a social drinker. I think I had seen and experienced it all a little too up close and personally to go down that route to the same degree as themon that one , besides other drugs were the choice of many of my generation and sometimes it was because it was easier to keep your wits when using and someone had to keep an eye on all the drunkin baffoons at times. My first job age 16 while still living at home, was the same place my Mother worked but for the Mental health hospital portion for at that time our whole province. I have a lot of experience from work and my own health and many years of educating myself on these subjects that have plagued me all my life. Both my spouse and I are artists, and both have addictions to many things. I have never drank so much in my life since I have over the last few years since separating from my spouse. And you know why HG. First hand experience in combination with seeing the lowest of the low, live in technicolor for years and years everyday will still not stop you from ending up this way if its your destiny to have to learn the why’s & way’s this way also. When you live with any narcissistic dynamic your school of choice becomes the inherited school of hard knocks.
    Would you be so kind also as to elaborate on addictions in your family’s past or present besides your Uncles HG. as I mentioned in another comment I believe that a lifetime of this abuse will cause dimentia and atlhizemers in codependants. Thank you in advance. I will be off for several days from the blog HG having to go into the city to help deal with my mother who very shortly will have to be put into a home as her situation has escalated very fast since my Fathers passing in April. I’m convinced it is from a lifetime of living this way and now that he is gone she can no longer cope. She and I lived a very similar life partly with her help and my fathers and my spouses and myself. It was almost like she decided that one of us would not get away living any other life that wasn’t identical to hers. I’m the baby…the one that couldn’t get away. I feel perhaps now it was to ensure that someone in the end understood it all and would know better how to help her in the end or at the very least understand more so than the others. I have seen similarities that match my behavior of hers, my fathers and my spouse more so now that she is this far gone that seem to match more of my full blown manias that have surfaced behaviors since my separating. It literally made me go crazy. I have seen the full blown results. I am trying to avoid going down that road myself. Time will tell. yes, HG I am trying to wake up. wanting to wake up like your other post title and article suggests I am. at the same time I just wish for it all to hurry up and smother me if that is the true intention for me too in the end, for I am soooo tired. The struggle to find the true answers from all the intentional and unintentional lessons I set out to find at such a young age have taken this long to come full circle. It is too late for her. not sure if it’s too late for me. My spouse has me so worn out on top of all this with a 5 year with no end in sight separation going on. When my Father passed earlier this year I remember thinking you lucky bastard. you get to go and leave us all behind to deal with your life and death and what it all did good and bad. Indeed his life is / was a combination of a great deal of good and a great deal of bad. I warn you HG it doesn’t go away when they draw their last breath. For good or bad, you now breath for two or more and mourn for it all and celebrate it all all at the same time that you are trying to postpone your own destiny. take care…Ttyl 😉 X’s

  29. I have much stronger reactions to caffeine and alcohol than normal people. I doubt I could even survive mind-altering drugs. I try to limit my intake of anything that affects my control. A few of my narcs have attempted to push alcohol and drugs on me. One certain event even led me to the ER. Of course, the narc at the time tried to dissuade me from going to the hospital.
    Now that I look back, I think they enjoyed witnessing my barely conscious state. Is that possible? Would there be any pleasure for you when someone is almost completely incapacitated?

      1. Interesting. One of my narcs used to occasionally partake in MDMAs. He said it gave him much deeper sensations and he felt more emotions. After reading your work, I understand now your kind’s emotions are very limited. Do you believe MDMA can temporarily give you the emotions you are lacking, such as empathy?

        1. I read this suggestion last night Love and have given it quite a bit of thought.
          It would be interesting to see, I shall pop a pill and let you know. It seems to me that if the emotions just are not there, then MDMA will either have effect or it will act as temporary substitute by fabricating the sensations and emotions which are not ordinarily felt. But afterwards, it is a return to normal.
          If, as is suggested, these emotions are locked away somewhere, the MDMA may well link with them and heighten them. What then happens when the MDMA wears off? Will I return to the usual state or will I now have access to these emotions through somehow the MDMA having unlocked them.

      2. Pls be careful with the E, HG…popping my 2 cents in….you’re gonna do what you want. No, I haven’t done it. I’ve just seen bad results.

      3. Lol, by no means am I encouraging drug use. Mr. Tudor, you are too dear to us to be used as a guinea pig for an experiment.
        Say no to drugs kids.

    1. MDMA is E? Thought it was a different substance… I’ve wanted to try E but it isn’t something, in the correct form, you can easily obtain here. I’ve had a try once and apparently it’s was a dud. I’d like a more heightened experience.

      1. What does “don’t drop litter” mean? It sounds like something I’d say to my kitty after using the kitty litter box….dont make a mess and drop
        Any litter (giggles)…..I’m sure it’s a saying that is common over there. A curious American that loves slang from other countries 😊

        1. Litter is rubbish, trash, garbage. So dropping an empty Coke can on the street is littering, throwing a newspaper on the floor in a park is littering.
          What do you call it?

          1. Ah, now I feel silly. ****Smacks head. *** of course.
            I use litter as a verb, not a noun. So i say, “don’t litter”. Though, I have heard “look at the litter.” Might be a personal quirk of mine and not regional.

      2. Oooooo, be careful with E. it feels great, all lovey. But sometimes the crash is horrible (deep depression).

  30. So to understand more clearly you are addicted to inflicting pain and emotional responses on others . Positive or negative but mostly negative . Our tears and emotions are your best and most amazing version of crack. Am I somewhat right ?

    1. No, I am addicted to the provision of fuel. This may be positive or negative. It is the case that the provision negative fuel can involve pain (not always for instance anger or hatred) but that is the collateral effect of gathering negative fuel. You will find the forthcoming article “Love or Hate” of interest Starr.

  31. I guess I’ll be the bad girl here… I enjoy drinking from time to time. I do not like beer at all, I enjoy a nice hard liquor mixed drink or few. I DO NOT like to lose control of myself though, I know my limits.
    Give me a Nuts n Berries – might as well keep them coming!

    And while we are at it, I also enjoy what mother earth has provided naturally…

    Neither one of these things I do every day but I do like to have a little fun often!

    My ex narc, he was not really in to drinking much… and he’d just fall asleep anyhow.

          1. “It” would mean one…there are two main categories and of course many sub categories. I prefer one type because with the other I sleep… I’ve got too many things to do, other than work, to be sleeping. It is fun for recreational use once in a while but really I use it for medical purposes.
            I would have agreed with you a few months back as I wasn’t interested at all, the last time I used it was 20 years ago as a teen.

          2. I have never tried weed, or street drugs. I’m not sure what they would be like. I have often wondered if Marijuana would make BPD calmer and even sweeter. I just cannot say.

      1. I`m with HG and others on this. Weed does nothing for me. Never has. I find it incredibly boring.

        I have experimented with nearly everything and I find drugs like cocaine, E, speed, etc. to be quite exciting. They heighten many of my already heightened senses and make for some pretty bloody good times.

        Not something I indulge in regularly, but I have a penchant for risky and reckless behavior, so it`s no wonder I find these things appealing.

      2. As I stated in one of my responses already, the use of mj isn’t for a high, which is fabulous for me btw, but it’s for medical purposes. Recreational use would only be so I can focus or clean the hell out of my apartment. 😉

          1. Oh it is so delicious…it’s unfortunate that many places don’t know how to make it, nor do they carry the raspberry which is much better than grenadine! If you are out and having fun ask for one, it’s delightful and strong!

          2. Good morning DC, too bad we aren’t closer. We could meet for one. lol…. I made a note of what’s in it. I will ask the next time I go out. I just discovered shots in the past two years. I decided I like fireball whiskey. But I’m a lightweight. Lol

          3. I know! <3 I am sure we would have a blast! Oooh fireball whisky, you are a fireball with that one! I used to like a shot called three wise men… Hot Damn, Gold Schnaps and Jager…but I don't think I could handle many of those any more either! Make it burn baby!!! 😉 I'm the fireball still, just not the young fireball I once was! 😉

          4. DC, thanks for another recommendation. Lol… I would be knocked out after a few shots. I haven’t gotten any better at holding my liquor in my 40’s compared to my 20’s. Lol… It does make the day after rough for me. I have also discovered that I like Long Island ice tea’s.

          5. Ooooh those are yummy. It is all about the water… ALWAYS drink at least two bottles of water (16.9oz) before you go to bed. I am 2.5yrs shy of 40 but and maybe I seem childish but I do enjoy getting into trouble with my girlfriends from time to time… I haven’t had a hangover in YEARRRSSS since doing the bottles of water before bed. Anyways that is all that alcohol does to your brain is dehydrate it, that is why people end up hung over or super drunk. A refined liquor sipper usually orders a water back with their jack n coke or even scotch on the rocks… I am sure that is their secret to successful drinking 😉 . Just do not mix beer with liquor!

          6. You sound like a blast DC!!! Not childish at all. I will remember your drinking tips. My ex exposed me to a variety of alcohol. Lol.. There were some good times with her. I didn’t know much beyond a margarita or daiquiri. I like those too. Lol… I turned 45 this year. It would be nice to go out and talk and have fun with someone who understands what we have been through.

          7. I agree, although I have to admit that if we were to go out I would not be focusing on talking about the ex… at all, unless it was coffee first then fun after! I like to ask questions here so I can get it through my very thick skull that this is all real, but I am hard headed and do not bother even listening to myself at times. I think too much on the spur of the moment when it comes to a love interests, or as SA would say “lust interests”.
            And at 45, you are still young and full of life… drink all of the margaritas you want but leave off the salt..Yuk! 😉

          8. AGREE!! Coffee is good first….. Later on the music is too loud to be talking about ex’s! Lol… And NO salt.

  32. B&T we have something in common! Yeah!! Lol. I can drink!! But like you it depends on the circumstances and whom I am with! I can get pretty nasty! Xx

      1. We would have to have Clarece there!! I don’t want any swag!!! What fun and trouble I’m sure we would get into!! Lol. Xx

  33. For some reason, I do not get drunk. I might throw up if I drink too much, but I never get drunk. I never drink, but I mean, when I do drink…I do it alll the way, and I still don’t get drunk. I just have a different chemical structure, I suppose. Inborn Error of Metabolism. Plus, my mom drank when she was pregnant with me and I was born with terrible withdrawals and delirium tremors. So, I’m probably just used to the alcohol.

      1. For example not the ones just saying it . I was just wondering if there was anyone else following the blog who knew for a fact and even may have been officially diagnosed as a narcissist or sociopath .

    1. Hello again Starr, if there are other Narcissist in the forum, do you have any questions for them? If so, what would they be?

      1. A lot of questions, but mainly what they think the root cause is . Were they born without empathy or was it stolen from them as a child?

        1. They are good questions. I believe they are created that way. Yes, it must have had an affect in childhood development and/or emotional development though they are very witty and intelligent in many areas.

  34. And “uncle Robert” would be your mother’s brother, right?

    My mother is a non-drinking narcissist. She likes to think she has too much self control to take a drink & I’ve never seen her drunk.

    I used to get blind drunk. I’m talking gin at 10 am, a blackout not long after, scotch that same evening, and “No, officer, I don’t know how that dent got in my car,” that kind of blind drunk. And then I got sober…sobriety somehow made me more of a narcissist, if that’s possible.

    1. Correct Cara.

      I recall your battle with drink Cara, that is some serious work there, you would have been an ideal drinking partner for UNcle Robert.

        1. I have noticed a lot of empaths such as myself who follow the blog and are active with communicating within it . I’m curious to know if there are any narcissists or sociopaths or psychopaths who follow the blog as well . I’m talking about the legit ones not the wannabes or fake ones . I’m talking true to the core maybe even officially diagnosed people with cluster B personality disorders .

          1. Perhaps the Wannabes and Fakes will say they are, and the real ones will not know it, and therefore not come forward. Unless, they are fortunate enough to be aware, like HG, and a few others…

  35. I bet you are one helluva fun guy to drink with, HG! I can drink most everyone I know under the table and still be in control. I`d love to play a drinking game with you, though I`m pretty certain you`d win.

    And I can only imagine what fate would await me if I passed out on your watch! Delicious…..

    I have a question – do you find, depending on your mood, etc. – that you need to choose when you drink carefully? I find sometimes alcohol can influence my to be particularly nasty depending on the circumstances so, at times, I choose not to partake if it could mean things will get uglier than I want them to.

    1. I would be happy to do so but yes, I would win.

      If my machinations need to be razor sharp then I avoid drinking. I have not noticed it having any significant effect on the underlying mood.

      1. Yes, I can understand that absolutely. I never allow myself to get so drunk I can`t think straight. It`s not only so I can be in control but because I believe that sort of behavior is beneath me and reserved for the lesser of society.

        Alcohol can affect my mood depending, as I said, on how I am feeling prior to drinking.

        It can bring me to a most dark place in which I become even more of a nightmare than usual. Not fun for people unlucky enough to be around me when that happens.

      1. Not in particular. only that I stopped drinking and then some months after I noticed it feel great zero Alcohol. Neverthess on a special ocassion I can take wine sporadically.
        I mean not that I dramk alot before (except 20’s 😜😜) some weekends per month I did one cup or two.Also I strongly believe alcohol is not good for the body so this keeps my commitment.

  36. HG, I love this one. I do not consider myself an empath at all and identify 100% with being a codependent. Which also means I am primarily drawn to alcoholics/addicts and never encountered or have been involved with a narc (until this one who is Narc/alchoholic) I have a much stronger desire to fix, manage, control, rescue, threaten, manipulate, than having actualfeelings of empathy towards individuals, which has worked to my advantage, as I have seen the payoff of “my work” when addicts enter recovery and become the decent human you know is inside. Narcs, I’m learning, cannot be saved. Sick, but this one really hits home.

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