The Five Devaluation Triggers


You will be familiar with the fact that one day you are cock of the walk and the next day you are a feather duster. You are atop the pedestal and in a flash you have been thrown from it and you are lying in the dust as we stand over you berating you. The sudden switch from hero to zero, from princess to pauper, from “good person” to “bad person” is perhaps the most confusing, bewildering and upsetting part of our behaviour. People cannot comprehend why they were being feted as the love of our life on Monday and then by Tuesday they are the devil incarnate. It is something which causes (and of course we want this) victims of our nefarious behaviour to cling to us in order to get an answer, to receive an explanation and some kind of reasoning which will allow them to make sense of what has happened. They are unlikely to accept it, the emotional hold of the seduction and the golden period prevents acceptance of this sudden fall from grace for a very long time, but if you are able to understand why it happened, you are able to move yourself forward with greater speed than you would otherwise. Our reasons may appear illogical to you based on your world view but at least you have some reasons and that is more than you would usually ever receive from our kind as we plough on with your devaluation offering no cogent or realistic explanation for this sudden switch. I am not explaining why we devalue you (fuel, control, reinforcement of our need for superiority and self-worth). I am explaining what is it that makes us love you then hate you in the blink of an eye. What causes this sudden change, this 180-degree swing, this volte face, this switch? You will be given no answer or if you are they will not be anything to do with the real reason why we suddenly idealise you then devalue you. This false reasons are wheeled out to make you remain all the more, pursuing an elusive point as we continue to drain you of negative fuel until we decide you are to be discarded. Thus, here are the five reasons that are the triggers for the devaluation.

  1. Stale

The fundamental reason for seducing you is to gather your potent and positive fuel. In the beginning and for some time afterwards we are invigorated by this precious fuel that you supply to us. We are reliant on it, we want and need it and we marvel at the fuel you provide us. This may last months or it may even last years dependent on our demands and your ability to fulfil them. Your complacency however causes the fuel to become stale to us. You may not regard yourself as having done anything wrong. We understand that according to your view of how a healthy and mature relationship should progress that after a dizzying, honeymoon period the relationship moves to a deep-seated position where that initial buzz of excitement has faded to be replaced by something long-lasting, substantial and fulfilling. Should you appreciate your relationship with us with this mind set, it results in us seeing you as complacent. You may regard it as a natural and understandable, indeed potentially necessary progression. We do not. Your failure to admire us in the way you once did (or at least the manifestation of this admiration), your demonstration of love, adoration and such like becomes lessened. You may not think that you love us any less but it is the way that appears to us that matters. This change manifests as complacency to us and it makes your fuel become stale, less potent and this in turn threatens to weaken us. In order to defend ourselves we must immediately switch to the devaluation and extract the negative fuel from you which will power us to the extent we want and demand.

  1. Disobedience

Our sense of entitlement, inability to recognise and respect boundaries and huge need for control means that we have to have you do what we want. This control arises through the application of the incentive, the carrot approach, when we have seduced you and the golden period is in play. Through the application of wonderful and loving behaviour we cause you to do what we want by providing fuel and carrying out our wishes. We have delighted you and you want to please us in return. We provide you with the love you desire and you respond by complying with our requirements. When you stop submitting to this benign control then we will switch and commence the devaluation. You may, when viewed objectively by others, be correct in not doing what we want, taking an alternative course of action and doing something else but to us that is irrelevant. You are challenging our control and this cannot be countenanced. In order to stamp out this uprising before it gains traction and undermines our careful operation that has been constructed to control you and gain fuel from you, we must tighten our control, remove the dissent and increase our grip on you. This is when the devaluation begins. We move from benign dictator to malign tyrant.

  1. See Through

If we apprehend that you are working us out. If we perceive that you have been influenced by another source and you are joining the dots. If we gauge that you are beginning to realise what we are and what we are doing, then we must strike first in order to shock and awe you into submission once more and dispel your fabrications. You may well be right but we are not going to accept you being right. We will switch to the devaluation in order to unleash all those manipulations which will confuse you, drain you and most of all make out that it is all your fault. We have done nothing wrong other than love you with a perfect love and instead you have brought this on yourself through your lies about what we are and your treachery. We cannot allow you to unmask us and therefore we will assault you with a frenzied devaluation which gives you no option other than to try and defend yourself so you lose sight of your goal of seeing through us. We will make you feel guilty, cruel and heartless in the hope of tapping into your empathic traits so you stop what you have been doing and concentrate on putting things right between us, mending the relationship and showing that you care. The commencement of the devaluation when you are uncovering what we are is a massive distraction exercise designed to protect us and harm you.

  1. The Hoover Opportunity

This is not a hoover against you. Instead it is the opportunity which suddenly arises to hoover a predecessor. This person may have been discarded and moved away from our sphere of influence or they have escaped and done likewise, but now something has happened whereby they have come back into our sphere of influence. The promise of that sweet and powerful hoover fuel will outweigh the positive fuel that you are currently providing us with. The prospect of getting this hoover fuel means that we want to focus our attention on the predecessor and hoover them. We will not get shot of you, not yet, because that will leave us in in-between primary sources of fuel. Instead, we commence the hoover to seduce again your predecessor and thus because they have appeared on the horizon they make you look like the less desirable option. This causes us to question why we are with you, to regard you as a mistake and therefore we switch to devaluing you as we begin the seduction of them once again. Should the hoover fail, expect the golden period to be reinstated for you, with another sudden switch. Should it succeed and we begin to tie the predecessor back to us once more with the hoover fuel beginning to flow, you can expect the devaluation to worsen as you hurtle towards being discarded.

A sudden switch to devaluation may indeed herald the fact that a predecessor has appeared on our radar and we are hoovering that person at your expense.

  1. Total Control

You are aware that we want to control you. This is fundamental to the dynamic between us. Yet, as a further example of the double standards that we engage in we want to control you and if you disobey us we will commence your devaluation but furthermore if we believe we have obtained total control over you then we will similarly commence your devaluation because we know that you will do anything that we want and we will just use you to validate ourselves in the event that other, more exciting prospects do not fuel us during the course of the day. You become relegated to the reliable and dependable, because you are actually doing precisely what we want, but through our warped logic, this equates to you no longer being special. Thus we need to make you special to us once again and we do this through devaluation. We will not cast you aside when we have achieved total control, not at all. This state of affairs brings with it considerable benefits but they will now be channelled through the filter of devaluation and not idealisation. It is symptomatic of the bizarre (when judged from your perspective) logic we apply that when you finally do the very thing we want, we turn against you and begin your devaluation.

How do you deal with all of this? The short answer is you cannot. Any of these five reasons may suddenly apply without warning and your devaluation starts. You cannot avoid it and you could not avoid it. You did nothing wrong, but you did everything wrong from our world view. There is nothing you can do to avoid this happening, because once the trigger happens, the devaluation will follow. The thing you can draw the greatest solace from however is that in knowing this is how we are, in knowing that there was nothing you can do or you could have done to have changed the outcome, you at least now have this knowledge and through it you can attain freedom from the doubt, uncertainty and sheer bewilderment of wondering why it happened.

113 thoughts on “The Five Devaluation Triggers

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  3. SMH says:

    Kim e, Violetta, CIF,

    OK, OK, OK. I won’t play games. I won’t try to fix him, make him see, or do good. I must say that my whole opinion of him changed as soon as I realized his disappearance was due to a hissy fit. I have on occasion not responded to doc, who still writes twice a day. The only thing he said was that if I needed to take a break, I should. He’s a gem.

    Wouldn’t it be more effective to just leave Odin hanging than to block him? I always think of blocking as actually doing something, when it’s worse for someone to think that you just do not care enough to bother. (I do a very good imitation of lackadaisical.) But I guess that means I am engaging with him. I do get it.

    Kim e – you probably did raise my awareness somewhat with your warning.
    CIF – I see the mistake and I raise you three! 🙂
    Violetta – teetering on the abyss are we. I have no idea why narcs make a beeline for me. I do not hide who I am, and I am far from being a maiden all forlorn. But they are completely blind. It’s puzzling.

    Smooches, ladies, and thanks as always for having my back! Love you!

    1. Kim e says:

      Just leaving him hang does nothing but keep your ET high. Even blocking him but not deleting his info keeps your ET high. Your ET always thinks “just a matter of time. He will be back. Want to make sure he can contact me” OR as in my case, I would always faulter and contact him. Sometimes it would take a couple weeks….last time 4 months.
      Block, delete, burn ………..or enjoy life on the shelf and maybe some cookies.

      And to cut in on V… will always attract N’s. You are an Empath. All you have to do is breathe and they will find you.


      Going to check other reply on other link

    2. Caroline-is-fine says:


    3. sakfhjrgjmnt says:

      If you are a strong, capable, beautiful, talented woman, narcs are drawn to you like a bee to a pollinating flower. If you are a open, capable, honest, caring and empathic man, they are also drawn to you like a fly to honey. They want someone better than themselves because if they succeed in crushing you, they feel validated and superior. They are looking for a strong person to destroy, someone who represents all of the things they were denied in childhood. They live on the high as they were not loved properly and if they succeed in your demise, it fills the void, because deep down (inside of themselves) they are broken and hollow..

  4. SMH says:

    Well, this is timely. Great that it was revived! I think I attracted another narc after all. I was sort of waiting for devaluation and it happened, as far as I can tell. Two weeks ago I failed to read or respond to one of Odin’s messages until the afternoon (disobedience?). When I did respond, I apologized that I’d had a very intense work day and needed to focus (all true). Things got spotty after that. Last week he suddenly fell off the map for three days – he was not anywhere online.

    I waited…wrote to doc – hmmm. What happened to Odin? Is he angry at me? But did not write to Odin himself. Suddenly, last Friday I get a message from Odin beginning with the SAME exact words I had used to apologize in mine with some ridiculous reason why he had not been around and making reference to my failure to respond in a timely manner the week before (childish!).

    As soon as I saw the first line of the message, I knew I had wounded him (spine chilling). In my response, I said something along the lines that I do not manipulate people or play mind games (see through?). He swore up and down that he does not either, but there it was, plain as day!

    Since then, he has reached out and then ignored me when I responded. I ignored the fact that he ignored me and just went about my business. I’ve noticed a number of unsettling behaviours and communication patterns throughout this whole thing (3 months now). I’ve been patient, cool, calm and collected, however, because I don’t really feel any attachment to him and don’t really care if he comes and goes at this point. Is it possible that it pisses him off that I have successfully resisted his attempts to harness my emotional energy (stale?)?

    I think I will keep on playing this game because as long as I don’t get too involved (lockdown, so I cannot), it’s fun to torture a narc by acting all oblivious to what he is doing. Plus, I have the empathic doc on my team as a contrast.

    1. Violetta says:


      I know it’s tempting, but I beg you to avoid. This is like 0laying along the edge of a black hole. It will suck you in and do horrible things to you with it’s varying gravity.

    2. Kim e says:

      This is what I meant when I would tell you to be careful. HG always tells us that N’s do not all act the same way and they can be hard to spot.
      That being said….and this next part I say to you out of concern and love….GET THE HELL OUT OF THERE. What do you mean you are going to play with the N??????????????????

      Out…get out…block…..

      PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Pretty Please!!!! It will catch up to you…………….


    3. Caroline-is-fine says:

      Shoot! I lost my post to you, trying to double-post it on here…but my post did *seem* to go through on the Hoovering thread, SMH💙…so it should turn up there (as soon as HG reads through it).

      1. SMH says:

        CIF, I did see it! Thank you! I responded here but am unable to reply directly to anything so I hope you see this xo

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  6. Anm says:

    The primary tissue I have with the term Covert narcissist, many people use the term overlapping with the meaning of a codependent. They may have many characteristics, but a codependent feels empathy, and a covert narcissist doesnt. I think it is detrimental to confuse the two.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Solid observation.

    2. Lorelei says:

      ANM, I am confused why CD’s are even occasionally coined as narcissists. I believe only HG has stated they start out and fail to develop as such. His concept (I think) on the matter is original. Either way—I am only familiar with who I believe is a CD that I grew up with as acting criminally at the behest of her narcissist, because satisfying her need to be with him diminished her empathy to the point that the addiction causes her to act addicted. It is unfortunate. I am not sure who else I’ve ever met is really that CD. I think most people I know that are empaths are standard as most fit there.

      1. Anm says:

        I think a fan of pop psychology could easily mistake it. Look at Sam Vaknin’s work “Inverted Narcissist (codependent)”, some of his information is a bit confusing, as I believe he presents that many codependents are narcissist. What you are describing is a good example. Did you see that movie, The Joker with Joaquin Phoenix? He was going through his mom’s file and she was diagnosed as having Narcisisst Personality Disorder? I believe the mother was such a sick codependent, that she could have been diagnosed as a Narcissist. I wouldn’t doubt that some Codependents are unfortunately in the system labeled and misdiagnosed as Narcissist, and some narcisisst Narcissist are misdiagnosed with OCD, PTSD, Bipolar Disorder, Seasonal Depression, etc. Or not properly diagnosis them with the comorbid diagnosis. Anyways, I’m not a Psychologist, and this isn’t a psychology page or discussion, but HG is absolutely right, it’s too “narrow” of a definition.

        1. Lorelei says:

          ANM—I started a reply and lost it.. I just had a “BPD” throw herself on the floor an hour ago! I recognize it as an attempt to gain attention (fuel). I think it’s interesting though re, CD’s. The Book Chained was excellent. Ultimately re, my friend.. I don’t care if she has feelings that are empathic. She is a thief. She sent condolences for my mother and I ignored them. I’m not cruel enough to say mean things to hurt her. I actually still love her dearly—but she can’t ever come near me again. She has such a toxic life that I can’t be near it. I have not seen that movie.. Assuming I should.

          1. Anm says:

            I totally understand about your feelings towards the codependent person in your life. You probably shouldn’t see the movie if you are dealing with borderlines throwing themselves on the floor at work. It maybe too much reality to watch

          2. Bibi says:

            I regularly look up the ex and current primary source of a Lesser Somatic I once knew. I go to see how his presence in their lives has affected them.

            When Somatic was with gf, she was constantly posting pics and selfies. Every other day it was a new pic of herself. (She uses those filters which makes her large forehead make her look like the Star Child from 2001, but anyway who is judging?)

            Anyway, after she and Somatic broke up, she is no longer posting pics of herself. Seems like she is dating an empath guy who puts up with her (she was arrested for theft and her mugshot looks nothing like her filtered photos–surprise surprise).

            One might see all her pics and think, ‘Narcissist!’ But it is very common for codependents who are with Somatics, no less (and Somatics who are likely to triangualte and speak about women and how hot they are, etc) so the CD feels the need to gain his attention and sex herself up more.

            I notice too that she never had arrests until she encountered him. I don’t know the story behind that, but she is a hot mess.

            I have known other CDs who can be that way–me, me, me! They want compliments, attention, but there is sort of a groveling sadness to it. They get their self-esteem by having some alpha male pay attention to them–or just some asshole who is a dick to everyone else but nice to them.

            CDs have very bad boundaries–they’re non-existent. They are terrified of having people dislike them but even more so having their narcissist reject them.

          3. blackcoffee30 says:

            Lorelei, I tried to watch Joker this weekend. Midway I stumbled on it on HBO. There was a violent murder, and I was so upset!! I had to stop and color in my coloring book. Such is the life of an empath.

            ANM, I agree. I was very confused when Vaknin started talking about “Inverted Narcissists.”

          4. HG Tudor says:

            The term inverted narcissists is unhelpful and should be jettisoned.

          5. Bibi says:

            My vagina is really an inverted penis.

          6. HG Tudor says:

            Comment of the day.

          7. Violetta says:


            Of course it is. You were exposed to the cold humors in the womb.

          8. Bibi says:

            Bahaha Thank you, HG.

        2. Witch says:

          There were a couple of indicators in the movie to suggest that the mum was a narc. 1) her son being in the bathroom with her while she is having a bath, suggesting that there was emotional incest/emeshment
          2) she lied about who his father was and invented a relationship that didn’t happen (From what I remember I believe the joker was adopted and not her biological son) so she hid that from him and lied about it his whole life
          3) she allowed her adopted son to be beaten by his step dad resulting in head injuries. Yes could be a sign of codependency but really… I think something that’s extreme is very questionable as to whether the other parent actually cares.

          1. njfilly says:


            Interesting comment, particularly your point #1. Not in relation to the movie as I haven’t seen it.

            Your point reminds me of a peculiarity of my mother’s when I was growing up. She would often be naked at inappropriate times. I can recall her standing naked in the hallway speaking to myself and my brother. I’m unsure of our ages at the time but I would say pre-teen or younger. We would be glancing at each other with perplexed looks on our faces as to why she always wanted to be naked in front of us. We couldn’t even pay attention to whatever she was saying to us as we were uncomfortable and confused about why she was naked.

            Also, she would often be on the couch ill (whether real or imagined) and naked and I was always so confused and would discuss it with my brother, as well as question to myself, why does she have to be naked?!

            Do you, or anybody, have any insight into this?

            Thank you.

          2. Witch says:


            I think this is a symptom of the narc not understanding appropriate boundaries because they don’t want to feel controlled by them. they see people as an extension of themselves and as their belongings, which means any apparent distinction between self and other is threatening for them. This is because it threatens their need to have control over their environment which includes other people. So they blur the distinction between self and other by violating other people’s privacy and sometimes sacrificing their own.
            I hope I explained that correctly.

            There was hardly any privacy in my home, my mother was everywhere.

            When turned on the TV and saw white American Hollywood families whereby their kids had locks on their bedroom doors…I was like 👀👀 eerrrmmm that’s not realistic!

          3. njfilly says:


            Thank you for your response. I guess I should consider myself lucky that my father, also a narcissist, was not naked around me.

            I’m also very lucky that I did have privacy and a lock on my door. My narcissist parents, although very abusive, were also neglectful. I appreciated their neglect as it allowed me to have solitude and do as I pleased, and I was often out doing things I should not have been doing.

          4. Witch says:

            If I tried to put a lock on my door my mum would have kicked that door down, even if I put up a “knock before you enter” sign, my mum would have slapped that sign off the door 😭
            My mum is like an angry chihuahua.. she’s small but she’s scary.

            I’m sorry to hear that you were also neglected. But I understand what you mean. The pro to the narcs neglect is that at least it comes with a break from their crazy episodes

          5. njfilly says:


            Well I’m sorry to hear your mother was so difficult. Was your father helpful to you?

            Actually these comments are making me remember some things. I did have a locking doorknob, which I didn’t install, it was there; but me being in my room with the door locked caused almost more problems. They were abusive to me when I was around them but didn’t want me taking refuge in my bedroom which I never understood. Until now. They would always berate me for being in my room with the door locked and I always wondered, well how do you know the door was locked unless you tried to open it? And what’s the difference anyway where I spend my time? Often I would just leave the house and stay out all night and return the next morning. I don’t even know if they were aware of this but I didn’t really care. As I write this I feel my anger toward them intensifying.

          6. WhoCares says:


            I paused for a moment when ANM described the Joker’s mother as a codependent and considered the evidence.
            I also observed the points you listed, when I watched the movie and I agree with your perspective.

            It is a disturbing movie to watch but worthwhile if you have an interest in the subject matter..or even have an appreciation for Joakim Phoenix’s acting.

          7. Witch says:


            I think the reason it’s not clear is because you’re not meant to know the jokers mother is a narc for the majority of the movie. She’s meant to appear as a nice old lady and her being a narc is part of the plot twist when the joker also find out who he really is

          8. WhoCares says:

            “She’s meant to appear as a nice old lady and her being a narc is part of the plot twist when the joker also find out who he really is”
            Exactly Witch – and for a while, from a certain perspective, his interactions with his mother look (relatively) innocent, or appear to be just the actions of a caring son.

          9. Lorelei says:

            I quit nudity after breastfeeding. Seemed reasonable.

          10. Anm says:

            Witch! After reading your extensive list of red flags, I believe you are 100% correct. I forgot there was that many through out the film. I was thinking there were only one or two. They just opened the drive in theaters again in my town. Haven’t done that since I was a child. May check that out this weekend. Sounds like that would be your cup of tea as well.

        3. Lorelei says:

          I may Netflix it ANM! Borderlines throwing themselves around doesn’t bother me. It’s pitiful but I try to maintain a clinical stance. It’s best to stay trauma informed and be professional. A narcissist acting in such a manner requires assistance to stay safe—anyone I care for is treated with dignity. I don’t think these individuals ever really find much peace when their shenanigans are this rudimentary.

  7. Letty Grayson says:

    This article is several years old but I feel compelled to comment. I found it creepy, fascinating and insightful as I just recently split up from my covert narcissist that I was engaged to marry — the first such covert narcissist in my entire life. I didn’t know what a covert narcissist was three months ago! As soon as I detected a devaluation — after 3+ years — I confronted him on it. (I would have run in a burning building for him before, adored him and loved him with my whole heart, but when I sensed his attitude change, I knew something was very wrong.) After confrontation he went into the silent treatment (and he returned to his home several hundred miles away) and I immediately took a couple of months to research what I believed was probably a mental disorder: the characteristics described by psychiatrists and PhDs in psychology were enough to convince me that he was damaged as a child and I was nothing more than “a supply”. . . . . I can’t respect him or help him and I’m not a real human being in his eyes. So it was quick and relatively easy for me to no longer want anything to do with him. Maybe I’m just lucky, or tough. . . . Anyway I appreciate the article, it was well written, and my heart goes out to those hurt by people like the covert narcissists. Peace.

    1. Kim e says:

      HG…where do people get covert from? I see it used a lot and not by you

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Other providers of information about narcissism use it. It is too narrow and its use should be discouraged in terms of describing a type of narcissist. The term covert narcissist is unhelpful.

        1. Lorelei says:

          Hearing the term covert narcissist got my attention and saved my sanity.(or maybe not..) I was accustomed to the DSM and this was a lightbulb moment for me. Don’t knock what has the capacity to make bells ring for people. It’s not fully encompassing but it was a game changer for me.

          1. Violetta says:

            What is a covert Narcissist supposed to be? A flying monkey? A lieutenant?

        2. Jacqueline says:

          I was the giver, older…he had a young one as the main i suppose, or many of them of all kinds?
          My last devalue i went over to talk in a gentle way, he calls 911 on me after 5 min.
          Shes as old as mu mother and i have a gf he says to 911, not me…
          6 months no word from him.
          You think he has the guts to try me again, ever?
          I do not.
          Lets hope not,
          What do you think?

          1. HG Tudor says:

            There is always a risk. How great that risk depends on a number of factors and I need more information from you through consultation to give you an informed and detailed response to explain the level of risk.

    2. blackcoffee30 says:

      Letty how and when did you begin to suspect you ex is a narc?

      1. Lorelei says:

        This is re, the discussion on CD’s—I can’t reply directly under the comments pertaining to.. I think there is some truth that the CD is a different sort of empath. Yes. Just as a standard carrier is different than a geyser. My only caution is that no one who identifies as CD walks away feeling hurt. The descriptions may be accurate for some, or not, but everyone here deserves to feel worthy and not less than. My greatest failure in life will forever be having been a participant in the fruits of poor boundaries myself. There are some very nice CD empaths—-they need to feel included and safe here.

  8. passiel says:

    This was very difficult to read, but very telling.

  9. Indy says:

    Brill, not too crappy…hehehe…
    Thank you for the chuckles 😁

  10. KB says:

    I’m interested to find out what happens when the house of cards topples and the hoovering and charm can no longer evade capture by authorities and full exposure is about to ensue? I refer to a higher level in this instance. Reason enough to think they’re a serious threat to life and they aim for a grand departure?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      A Greater would continue to deploy charm in order to escape the consequences, he would manipulate in all manner of ways to evade capture. If however capture was inevitable, a Greater could be pushed to take life IF that meant capture could be evaded. A Greater has enough awareness to realise that is likely to make things worse and would aim to manipulate the justice system to secure freedom, placing his faith in his abilities to manipulate others to secure the result he requires.

  11. smoke says:

    In my 3 years every part happened… but of course you know that already HG. Even the words you use remind me so much of my N. He told me I was complacent quite often. He was different in the fact that he didn’t even speak to his family. Was just a loner. I would feel that someone (N) who does things would want to brag about it to others. Like how “good” he is. But they don’t do they? Off topic.. please tell me that my N didn’t wet my bed to get me to be more empathetic on purpose. Yea that happened several times and he told me it was because he fell so deeply into a sleep around me because I made him feel safe. At times besides the passionate amazing sex I really did feel like his mother:(

    1. HG Tudor says:

      He sounds like a Victim Narcissist Smoke with you feeling like you were his mother. The wetting of the bed probably was not a deliberate act, but his explanation (whether true or not) was certainly designed to draw more fuel from you.

      1. Alexissmith2016 says:

        Interesting. On a blog from many years ago a fair number of commenters said their narc wet the bed. Is it a common thing amongst narcs?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          “Fair number” – what is that?
          Wet the bed- When? As children or as adults?
          It is not common. It used to be erroneously believed that bed wetting as a child was one of the factors which determined psychopathy.

          1. Violetta says:

            Setting fires, cruelty to animals, and bed-wetting were the triad.

          2. Alexissmith2016 says:

            Ah thanks HG. As adults, usually after drinking alcohol if I recall correctly. I just remember thinking, the first time someone did that to me they wouldn’t be in my bed ever, ever again. I hadn’t heard that re children and psychopathy.

          3. Anm says:

            I have never heard that one, but wetting the bed after the age of potty training is a sign of abuse. Child abuse can lead to narcissism. Psychopathy is a more complex issue though.

          4. Violetta says:


            Towards the end of her life, Jonbenet Ramsey was apparently soiling the bed, not just wetting it. God only knows what was going on in that house

        2. Lorelei says:

          Alexis—I’m kinda thinking if my ex wet the bed once I’d have smacked the shit out of him. Then it would have been a real mess. I beat him up over losing a ton of money. Eventually it gets draining to beat them. They never change and I got tired.

        3. Leigh says:

          I find this interesting too. My ex narc told me a story about when he was in college and he wet his girlfriend’s bed. She subsequently ended with him because of that. I found it odd that he even told me that story. Yet I still didn’t see the giant red flag. I actually felt bad for him.

  12. Fool me 1 time says:

    Oh HG, I by honk you’ve finally lost it!!! But I loved it!!!

  13. Lynne says:

    Hahaha, yes you are bril HG and funny and I’ve no doubt you’re a gorgeous hunk of man flesh. There’s your fuel for today!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are not wrong Lynne, thank you.

  14. Blackwidow says:

    In short: we are dammed if we do, we are double dammed if we don’t. So, instead of trying to apply logic to where there is none; we should, swallow the bitter pill, spit up the hook, deal with the pain, put the big girl’s panties on, forget the honeymoon phase, and raise it up the master’s arse on our way out while vowing to keep strict no contact.
    Instead of wasting time and precious fuel on one that flew over cuckoo’s nest, we should try to build better boundaries and work through the internal issues that got us to put up with Machiavellian games to begin with.
    Did I get that somewhat right? Totally right? Or f***ing right?
    (Last sentence is an adaptation of a Little Britain skid).
    Thank you very much HG for eloquently making sense of it all. The scientist in me would like to know if there is a brain MRI study to figure out which part of the brain lights up when the narc switches mode. It would be interesting to know if there is a common neurotransmitter pathway in the brain wiring of all NPDs.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You got it right.
      You are welcome, thank you for the compliment.
      I do not know about the MRI brain study, not my area, but I daresay some of the readers will have some knowledge on that.

      1. Indy in the Sky, with Diamonds says:

        BW, I would like to know that too! And, if I t hasn’t been done yet, you got an awesome study idea on your hands. One place to look is to go in google scholar, if you haven’t already. (free scientific paper access search engine for abstracts)…in fact I’m going to tip toe over there now bc I want to know 😊

    2. alexis2015s says:

      Yes there is. But I’ve watched many documentaries and I forget which one.

      My three favourites are

      ‘I am fishead’

      ‘Psychopath – BBC documentary’


      All on youtube. The last two are British and maybe you can’t watch these if you live outside the U.K. ?

      1. HG Tudor says:

        That first one sounds interesting Alexis? Is it about a man who is crappie or a ray of sunshine? Or someone who keeps herring voices? Or someone so marvellous he’s regarded as a kipper? Then again it just might be a load of Pollocks? I suppose it could be good for the sole? Maybe eel tell us himself so I don’t have to keep carping on? Is it an aquatic medical drama, you know with a charismatic sturgeon who has a cod complex? I guess we shall just have to tuna in and watch it? Oh salmon stop me I’m too brill!

        1. alexis2015s says:

          Dad ?

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Is that wishful thinking Alexis?

          2. alexis2015s says:

            Hahhaa. Maybe …… or could have been me likening it to dad joke 😘😘😘😘

          3. HG Tudor says:

            Outrageous! That was top grade material there.

          4. alexis2015s says:

            Compared to what ?

          5. HG Tudor says:

            Anything you might see as a “turn” in a social club or on television, Alexis.

          6. alexis2015s says:

            I’m kidding HG. It was x

          7. alexis2015s says:

            I admire your selectiveness HG. I must learn from this 🙂

          8. HG Tudor says:

            The ability to know what is needed and to lock on to that target is an impressive quality indeed.

          9. alexis2015s says:

            Hahah and your skirting reply

          10. alexis2015s says:

            Unless you want me to call you daddy ?

          11. HG Tudor says:

            It wont be the first time I have been asked to be called that Alexis.

          12. alexis2015s says:


  15. Kim says:

    Makes sense… mine told me if I hadn’t played detective, we would still be together! He didn’t like my telling him how to live… even though it was really bad for him and us! I did not respect after awhile and it became apparent. How can you still love someone after they mistreat you in so many ways… you can’t. I guess when there is another person eager to fill your position, not knowing the truth, it is easy to move on to new supply. It is sad that many people have no morals anymore. I don’t think it would be so easy to go from person to person if more people had boundaries and respected others and their marriages. I was amazed at how many women knew he was married and got involved with him anyway… And I and the awful one ??… I am glad this behavior is being exposed.

  16. Long Beach says:

    Thank you for explain all the ups and downs in my previous relationship – while going threw it I would step back and be like- something is not right here- now I see what was deeply going on. Since all of this is going on in the inside of the person (N) and to keep the other person confused is the goal so they slither undetected but is there anyway to detect these swings as the other party? Do they ever take off the mask and show others what is really going on in the inside? Do they not engage in this activity with some people (non-supply)/ is it the whole world? Thank you.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Everybody can be an appliance. Some are no good. Some are acceptable and other we come to the empaths, super empaths and co-dependents.

  17. I disobeyed
    Then I payed
    He ran away
    Then he played
    So I stayed
    And I prayed
    And he preyed
    And some more he played
    Then he ran away
    Then came back another day
    Not much more to say!

    1. I hope that this time you stay away!

  18. Lynne says:

    Thank you for your books and just for sharing the process, HG. I’m in the mist of breaking away from my narc, who has been my spouse for 16 years. I’ve been devalued now for close to a year, while he preys on new fuel on Facebook and now that he sees it’s really final, I do feel some very subtle hoovering starting to take place. My friend introduced me to your blog, bless her, because otherwise I’d have convinced myself he truly wanted to work on the marriage. Now I’ve girded my loins and am prepared to ignore,ignore, ignore.
    Thank you

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are seizing the power Lynne and you are in the best possible place to do so. Welcome on board.

      1. Sherry says:

        HG… meet my awesome friend, Lynne. Lynne, meet HG. As I’ve told you, he will give it to you straight from the other side, raw and tough and bitter, no sugar-coating. He will become the fire under your fanny to get you out safely. He is the reason I survived. He’s right… you are in the best possible place to seize your power back.

      2. Lynne says:

        Thanks HG. I’m glad to be here, and I’m so thankful for a friend like Sherry.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are most welcome Lynne.

    2. Sherry says:

      Lynne, you have been in the devalue phase for over ten years. You will learn that each time you have been “discarded” or have “escaped”, returning to your formal relationship was only because he hoovered you back and granted you respite in glimpses of the “golden period” all those times. Keep reading and you will piece together your entire relationship from the day it began. There is the one initial golden period, then devaluation and discard can happen on an endless loop by using intermittent hoovers and reminders of the golden period. But the only way to end it all, completely, is to escape and go No Contact/No Emotion. And stay there. And spend time EVERY day with HG. EVERY DAY.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        A useful summary Sherry.

      2. Lynne says:

        Yes I feel empowered already! I have to say I’d love a bit of revenge, though…Dangerous I know, but it would feel fabulous

  19. wompus says:

    I just had the Grand Hoover of Hoovers done to me in August & then an immediate discard. Really wish I’d found you in June or July & I might could have avoided it. Thank you for helping me to make sense of it all.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome Wompus, what an usual name. What’s the story behind that?

      1. wompus says:

        My brother gave it to me when I was little. Not sure how he came up with it.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Sounds like something you might find in the Star Wars universe! Still, I like it.

    2. Ah Oh says:

      Been there done that too. Wompus
      Sucked to be me for a moment.
      All better now.

      1. Cody says:

        Hi Wompus. You may have noticed it’s not always possible on this site to reply to the correct post. (This is the fault of Word Press, NOT HG, just to be clear! 🙂
        Having the courage to post here at all is a courageous step. No need to share until/unless you are ready. If you are able to share this much, what are some of the signs that your N is a mid-range elite? I have a hard time emvisioning an elite being anything less than, well, elite, but am curious where he lost points and only scored in the mid-range category.

    3. Cody says:

      Welcome, Wompus. What made it so grand?

      1. wompus says:

        Thanks for the welcome. Not sure I’m ready to talk about it. I already knew he was a narcissist & the idealization/devaluation/discard cycle. But was totally sucked in when I really should have seen it coming. I underestimated how much they value the devaluation and negative emotion part of it & how evil they truly can be. It wasn’t until I read ‘Fuel’ & Sitting Target by Mr. Tudor that I realized my mistake. My narc was textbook Mid-range Elite. Sadly, I didn’t read the books until after the discard. I’m in No Contact now & every day gets a little better.

  20. This is a fabulous post in regards to your actions and reactions to us. I recall telling my exN that sometimes I was a *itch but that he liked it about me. I do recall if I was completely subservient to him he would end up treating me like crap, like I was a bore to him. I noticed with surge in my confidence and attitude I would be treated as his queen again. It worked well for us… for quite some time. But then there was that jealousy and insecure monster that would come out to play… and he would get nasty. 🙁

    1. YEP!!!

    1. Cody says:

      This is for BND: you sound remarkably strong for someone who has not been out more than a few months. Hope you are feeling a little stronger every day.
      How did you meet exN? How long were you together- I realize this varies based on how you define “together” (do you count the silent treatments and devals, for example)? When did you first suspect he was a narc? Do you know if you were the primary?

  21. Bright New Day says:

    I have just recently started reading this site and find it extremely helpful. Things I knew but questioned have been confirmed by HG.

    Some of the verbiage was eerily verbatim what exNarc said to me.

    Glad to have that chapter of my life in the past.

    Thank you.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome Bright New Day and welcome on board.

      1. Bright New Day says:

        Thank you, HG

    2. Cody says:

      Hi BND. Welcome to the sisterhood (apologies, gents) you never wanted to join. This is overall a very supportive group so please feel free to share your story. You will learn things you never wanted to know and yet desperately long to finally understand. Did you recently escape your ex-N?

      1. Bright New Day says:

        Hi, Cody. Thank you.

        The break from exNarc was some months ago. Not the first break, but definitely the last. I knew for some time the relationship was irreparably broken but kept plodding away anyway. All the while I was becoming less tolerant of the games, manipulation, gaslighting, triangulation.

        It has been a while since the last Hoover attempt. Based on past behavior it is getting near time for another. He has told me that we are not through, and has been sending smoke signals. Presumably to provoke a reaction from me or maybe another appliance. He was very busy and activly grooming new appliances while we were still together.

        Thinking back I ignored so, so many red flags. Not just Narc behavior but just bad behavior in general. I was succeptable (and take full accountability for my part) and he was a master at exploiting.

        Definitely not something I want to ever repeat.

        I will share more of my story later or if you have specific questions, I will answer.

  22. I suppose the “we” denotes the narcissist???

    1. HG Tudor says:


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