Damned If You, Damned If You Don’t

DAMNED IF YOU DODAMNED IF YOU DON'T

Society and people need rules. The requirement for regulation looms large in everyone’s life. Pay your taxes, don’t park in that place, don’t drop litter, say please and thank you and so on. From laws to rules to codes of conduct, through to convention to procedures to etiquette we are bound up in rules wherever we go and whatever we do. People grumble and complain about them but ultimately they prefer the world to have these rules. People like to know where they stand. You know what you can and cannot do. You may not agree with it, but you at least have some certainty. Those that found themselves in the horror of concentration camps complained that there was never any certainty to the day. You could be subjected to punishment for walking too slowly one day and too fast the next. It was random and awful, yet such a system is horrendously effective at undermining someone’s will and paradoxically causing them to try harder in order to avoid a sanction.
Our behaviour is much the same. There is no rhyme or logic to it. Last week I said I liked sugar in my tea and this week I do not. I deny that I said I liked sugar in my tea and moreover this triviality causes me to erupt in rage when you put sugar in my drink this week. You are confused and anxious by this random control that I exert over you. It is all intentional. Do not make the mistake of thinking that we cannot recall what we said or did the previous day, that we are somehow blind to our previous likes and dislikes as if affected by some form of amnesia. This disorientating tactic is deliberate. You may as well ascribe outcomes to the numbers two through to twelve and roll two dice. That gives you just as good a chance of determining how I will behave. One week I sleep with the bedroom window open, the next it must be closed. Yesterday I want silence in the kitchen in the morning, today I want the radio on. Each day you are put on parade and then awaiting the inevitable criticism as I will find some fault in order to control you, demean you and provoke a reaction. I am like an insane regimental sergeant major who deems the buttons on your uniform to not shine enough despite the hours you spent polishing each one. Like his parade ground bark, I will unleash my haphazard criticism of you with a barrage of abuse, raising my voice and making you wince with each syllable. We understand the effect of repeatedly being shouted at and it causes you to submit to our demands Invariably I will see what you are doing and pick the opposite as being what I want. I am a natural contrarian. All of this is done to maintain your heightened sense of anxiety, forcing you to second guess and thus become conditioned to our will. Periodically we will approve of what you have done and your sense of relief is so overwhelming you receive a natural high. This in turn causes you to want to repeat it and therefore each and every day you are walking on those eggshells as you try to please us and avoid our erratic and groundless rage. There is no system you can depend on, no method of working out what is safe to do and what should be avoided, yet still you will try. As ever, you want to make matters right and keep the peace.

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201 thoughts on “Damned If You, Damned If You Don’t”

  1. Welcome to my world..

    CUNT….karmas a bitch.. You can thank more for the imfo.. I had to google am I a sex addict..why would I put up with this… I like to fuck…and he makes me squirt Something you can’t do Something he gets off on… Can you taste me… Details to follow.. Jamie wants you to hear them all You two faced whore ________________________________

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      1. Re: Karma

        Somewhere someone named Cunt is reading a comment meant for this blog and scratching their head lol.

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      2. Just my outlaws decided to pay me a visit tonight. It is the 3rd time in 2 weeks I have had a run in with them.
        Whatever it is they want, I know a knife to the back is part it.

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      3. T/Dawn
        Well I hope the visit was short. If Indy were here she might suggest burning sage. She must be marching to Canada-havent seen her on here much.

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      4. I always keep it short and to the point.
        They want something from me.
        Crazy thing is I actually thought about it what was asked.

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      5. That’s not fair, we can’t read from the beginning. Lol, HG are you still maintaining the 5 rules?

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      1. Well. you know Karen, sometimes people can get caught up in the throes of passion and are at a loss for words; thus making them ‘splash’ about causing all kinds of messes.

        But it looks like Jamie knows all about that.

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      2. Indeed! My night went from decidedly crap to one of laughing out loud at a screen.
        I think I have found my new home 😆

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      3. Oh Shelly, Shelly where have you gone?
        I’ve waited an eternity to hear your song.
        Alas, I am stuck with a dire need;
        To hear more of the details, please?

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    1. Jamie 🤔… Cunt 😖….get out the rubber sheets. Where’s the moderator? Lol…wow
      HG, you see the type of your disorder cause…Please, for all things holy get the message out in the mainstream.

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      1. Actually Entertainment, I am pleased you have made this point.
        1. I agree with you of course re the message in the mainstream ; and
        2. I remove some messages which would clog up the blog when there is a frenzy of messages which make no real sense, but I do allow a few through in order to demonstrate the thinking of people who have some connection with what is discussed here. There is a broach church of responses and I regard it as instructive to see them whilst avoiding the blog being cluttered up with impenetrable rants.

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      2. HG,

        You don’t know how I appreciate your weeding out several of mine. After 2 glasses of pinot mixed with sleeping aids. My goodness.. and voice texts. Lol.. Later I read them in moderation, all I can say is Thank you HG!! A frenzy of messages is a testament to your work. There are many bloggers who would love to have that problem. What you offer is invaluable, you have to take this on the road so many therapist are misinformed. HG Tudor conferences should be a requirement to obtain licensure or to renew. 😊

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    2. He makes you squirt? Was he a soccor player (football)? Because the one who did this for me was a soccor player.
      LOL

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    1. If you are unaware of these types victim cognitive dissonance. Once you are aware you become a volunteer for the continued deconstruction of your own life.

      Everyone heals at their own pace (understood). We may have our own disorder (understood).

      At some point in life we have to choose us or them. I choose me.

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      1. Entertainment
        Atta girl.

        Now lets work on that pace. People dont need a label to know when something is wrong or abusive. They need to find out why theyre volunteering and why for so long. If someone was abusing your kid or a family member you love, you wouldnt need time to identify it and youd be right there with advice and to help. Find out why you dont respect and love yourself enough to take your own advice. I read lots of posts about how fucked up Narcs are but you gotta hand them one thing: they dont treat themselves like a toilet for others. There is no pride or high moral ground in that.

        That of course was in general and not directed at you Entertainment.

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      2. NA,

        Thanks for the atta boy/ girl.😊 I enjoy cultivating the soil then watching you plant the seeds. Its spring time, hopefully it will yield a bountiful harvest. I am fine with generalizations.

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      3. NarcAngel yes. But they do treat themselves badly. In the post or book HG on sex I think, he mentioned narcs doing alot of things sexually, not because they are in to it, but for fuel. My narc seemed a bit upset he had turned into a male whore. But in his eyes, all was ok. But I see him doing alot of things that reflect his own lack of self preservation and care, treating himself as his own toilet but explaining it based on his ‘needs’ or midlife crisis. Who is he kidding? He was always like that. No midlife crisis caused his permiscuity and depravity. He risks HIV all the time and thats a reflection.

        But I fully agree, one is a victim until you really get it all and heal, and that can take a while, sadly. If I were to reach out to narc now, its volunteer. even though a small part of me is still in victim mode and still hurts alot. I can push it away more now though.

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      4. NarcAngel,
        I have a daughter and I am teaching her alot of what I have learned in this experience from the past few years in an age appropriate way. But she is not growing up in an abusive and neglectful home and environment like I did. So if your question is to ask me what would I tell her, if she came to me with a story of relationship abuse, I would tell her exactly what you said, to walk, its abuse. I am teaching her the tools and options and choices I was denied as a child myself. I also am in therapy because as I have said to a few people, the legacy of narc abuse being passed on in our family stops with me. I used many opportunties to talk to her about people pretending who they are not, about lies, about being true to one’s self, loving one’s self, knowing and listening to one’s self….. I absolutely do not want her to live the life I had. My wounds go very deep, well beyond the narc so while intellectually, the knowledge is there, the emotions and my soul are still healing my FOO stuff.

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      5. Sarabella
        I have no doubt that you love your daughter. Thats why I want to say the following and I hope you understand the spirit in which it is intended. That you make sure she is educated in reading peoples intentions, provide her with a home free of constant chaos, explain the dynamics of your family, and indeed even just being able to talk with her about these things is all a great foundation on which to build her confidence, and see through to your goal of having the abuse end with you. What I wonder is, how much of the time you have with her is slipping away to dealing with this issue in your life? I only know you from your posts here and I see that you are still so hurt and angry in dealing with both your family and your (hopefully) ex N which is understandable. I am not a Mother and I was denied one because she was solely fixated on how she would cope with her choice of poison (my Step-Narc). When she was not pleasing him or avoiding him, she was sitting alone and quietly thinking (there was no therapy or blogs) about the next move. Even when she tried to put it aside she was never fully present with us and you could see her mind had drifted. There is no getting that time back. You might think you are hiding it but I assure you she will notice. I bring this up because you have explained in previous posts how you have tried to get revenge and to hurt him as he has you, the ongoing conversations, etc. I understand all of that, but whenever I read of you or anyone else spending time on those things I think: There are all those minutes that you cannot get back and would be better spent with, and on, your daughter. She wants you to be happy so she can be. You know this from your own experience. If your Mother had been truly happy, how would your life be different now? Nothing you can do or say will change his life-it will just steal more of yours. Re-direct your energy. Dont just show her what NOT to do and what to avoid, show her HOW to be happy. That is how to break the cycle.

        Just a wish from a little girl I once knew for you and your daughter.

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      6. NarcAngel, I hear you, I do. This is the only place I talk about this anymore and so its my only space to express the lingering feelings. So the feelings come out strong and loud sometimes. I also just lost my brother and his shortened life was very much another side effect of my mother’s choices. It created even more anger at the reality that he never stood a chance with he was against the pain of my mother abandoning him more or less. And you described it very well, that you can be present but just not there. And I appreciated the reminder. But the reality is that I never dealth with ny mother issues in all my years. And it was a convergence of a whole lot of things that brought me to this place. Life changes, the narc, a total revisit of 5 years of my teen life I entirely blocked out, my brother’s death, and a few other things really blew my life up the past 4 years. Prior to that, I was still only half there and was escaping in other ways for unknown reasond. So while I have been distracted, in the end, I know the coming years will be better. I never even realized my mother was a nsrc until this all happened but it suddenly explained a whole whole lot of things that previously, I had just experienced as a constant low grade hum of pain my whole life. But I really do know what you mean about being present but not. My father was often in the same distracted mode when I was a kid and I think alot of it was also distractions from my mother and her ‘ways’. But you can’t show someone how to be happy when you have spent so much of your life struggling and unhappy but it feels like for the first time, I am getting why I was so unhappy and it had alot to do with her. It wasn’t all me and now, it is retraining my mind, undoing her relentless criticisms and belittling and accepting the truth of what happened to me and who she is

        I fully appreciate the spirit you intended it and took it that way. And I agree with you. I have been making many changes in my life to do just what you said, to become more present, more engaged with her and active with her.

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      7. Sarabella
        It was in no way a criticism of your posts. This is absolutely the best place to get it all out with others who understand. Just a reminder there are witnesses and collateral damage to our actions. I am glad to hear that you are aware and making progress. Be well.

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      8. NarcAngel, I didn’t take it as a criticism but I am cautious and wary about people who do tell me to change the dial, move on as I had a number of people respond to me that way but I found that they often were doing that in their own lives and not dealing with alot of their own messed up lives. It was so easy for peole to see my open pain and point fingers, and it exposed me to alot of people being more than willing to jump in and start judging and criticizing my life and especially when I was floundering so much. But what had happened was not normal, it was not something many people would get at all so they didn’t understand why it wasn’t so easy to just stop the story. I look back on it and its sort of amazing that I put up with some of these people and their judgements of me, especially as I consider now many aspects of those people’s lives…. talk about hypocrites!

        I really do appreciate the reminder as I have been aware of this side effect and its the one thing that has motivated me to find a therapist, to change parts of my life and not be so asleep in this all. I am doing better… and have begun painting again and pursuing my art. Though I thought at times I would never survive what he did, I dug enough down to find alot of pearls of who I am and I think they are starting to shine again. Keep reminding me! 🙂

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      9. 😔😢These comments are delayed on purpose. HG, stop the triangulation. I can’t take back what I said about the cough syrup and it’s the truth. We can’t glorify these thing’s. Although, it may come out as a joke in this blog, our kids are mirroring our behavior, reactions, and they know that when we can’t love ourselves enough to do what’s right for us. It’s impossible to give them the unconditional love with boundaries they deserve. Unfortunately, I didn’t realize this earlier in life. I have a son, he had his first at 19 years of age, so did I. He married and now they have 4 back to a back. Not exactly but close enough. I am saying this to say life goes by so fast and I was so bent on providing him with material items and trying to protect him from the City as soon as he completed 2 years in college that was the first place he landed. He remembers all my actions. Not just me working 10 to 14 hour days to give him whatever he wanted. But, the dysfunctional relationship I stayed in off and on for 13 years.

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  2. Oh, yes, I remember that.
    One week he liked tomatoes. The next week he didn’t. Then he threw a tantrum, because “I knew damn well he dislikes them”.

    I figured it out though. In several of our fights, I said one thing and it caused you to further explode. Then I said the complete opposite and that caused you to throw a fit.

    It was as if I couldn’t do anything right……..

    It got really interesting when I started compiling lists of things he liked and things he didn’t like. Because they changed every day. Yes, I really did that. That’s how I figured it out. That nothing was real. There were no real likes or dislikes. There was only control, only ego, only rage. Only him, never me.

    Maybe I will do that again in the future. Just because I’m curious what I’m dealing with.

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  3. Hmmm a question is in order. A bit different angle perhaps but what about following laws and regulations. The N don’t follow the simple laws such as traffic laws, paying bills on time and taxes. Envious of successful people (more successful than him) and of course better than everybody else. How about when things come crashing down? What will happen? Found out, prosecuted and loosing the business as well as very difficult to keep house and even banned for doing the only thing he can do (very limited schooling and no second backup)? What will happen then? It’s happening now and it looks pretty ugly at the moment. No way he will “survive” this storm.
    I should not even care but I do… because karma is knocking on he door.

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    1. The sense of entitlement, lack of accountability and blame-shifting will persist. It has to. That is necessary for survival. All of those prosecutiobs, business failings, loss of house will be the fault of somebody else.

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  4. And all cleverly calculated so you don’t even realise!
    “Don’t put the sun shade down, how am I supposed to see when I’m 6ft tall!!!” Next time….”put the sun shade down for God’s sake. The sun is blinding me! How can I drive with the sun in my eyes!!!”
    Trigger anxiety every time we went out in the car.
    I can name 1000 instances all designed to have myself and my son walking on eggshells 24/7. The only predictable thing about him was his unpredictability.

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  5. The trick of creating chaos and then seizing power under the pretense of putting things back in order is a tried and true method of deception and manipulation. It’s the meaning behind the Latin motto: ORDO AB CHAO meaning ORDER OUT OF CHAOS.

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    1. Oh yes it is. My N. was partially aware he was doing it. He called it: breaking them down and building back up. Only he didn’t know how to build properly. Eventually I broke him down. That was truly enjoyable.

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    2. Omg Ms Brown!!

      My ex N1 had that as his favorite saying! “Out of chaos comes order”… I always thought it was just part of his artwork. And he did cause some chaos! He was the worst physically. I feel like I’ve graduated through levels of narcs with my relationships. Each is more insidious and manipulative than the last.

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  6. Hoop Jumping 102 at the infamous Narc University. Taught by Professor Cunt, a two-faced whore.

    Lesson 1
    I’ve come here with no expectations, only to profess, now that I am at liberty to do so, that my heart is, and always will be, yours or You should be kissed, and often, and by someone who knows how.

    Then:

    Private Pyle (or insert IPPS name here) you are a disgusting fatbody or Wave good-bye to your buddies (girlfriends), Mayonnaise! Oh, I forgot. You don’t have any buddies (girlfriends), do you? Only customers!

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      1. NA,
        I’m hilarious. If you need a little OG Cush Brownies to understand me, hook up with The Marcher. Btw, cough syrup and paint thinner is called Grape Drank here in Detroit.

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    1. Cunt…two faced whore..this seems to be a reoccurring theme today. I can’t remember ABB are you the one in the wonderful marriage?

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      1. The chances of that occurring is at least 75% in Detroit. I am sure much higher in Cali. I am happy to read all is well and you are able to joke about it. I thanked HG for leaving some of mine in moderation until devaluation time 😊

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      2. @love syrup, cough syrup has killed many of kids. Scratch that, their are a lot of kids misinformed by some rappers and others in the industry that it’s the drink of champions when in fact it’s know where close to Gatorade the amount of codeine used in that mess has resulted in thousands of deaths the majority being youth. As a mother, I can’t believe you would condone the use of this legal drug that’s killing our kids. Also, this is known to be the gateway to oxycotin which in turn is responsible for the increase in heroine use and over dose.

        HG,
        I am sorry, I am sure that I am so far off topic.

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      3. Entertainment
        Down girl. Nobody is condoning the use of cough syrup or anything else, so finish up that wine and sleep aid and cool your jets lol.

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      4. Entertainment, my comment was a joke. The ‘drink of champions’ was said in sarcasm. I do not condone drug use. Period.
        Now all that said, dear lady…. I want to ask you, what is your issue with me? You have made a few comments that suggest you have a bone to pick with me. I welcome you to state your feelings. I want you to be open to air your grievances …. If anything I have said in the past has hurt you, I apologize and hope you know it was unintentional. Peace be upon you ❤

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      5. It is also my understanding that this blog is for adults only. Mr. Tudor, is that not the case? If there are minors on this site, then I am happy to censor or amend any of my future comments. I never want to misinform or falsely influence our children.

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      6. Love
        You and HG have children?
        Hey everybody! Put down your popcorn at that other tired drama and head over here. This is the REAL news!

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      7. Lol I walked away from my phone and thought, ‘oh sh*t, they’re going to burn me alive for that statement.’
        Forgot my disclaimer: I have no children, no lovechild with Mr. Tudor, nor am I planning on procreating. That was a joke and only a joke. No children or animals were hurt while typing that statement.

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      8. My heart is shattering to pieces Mr. Tudor. 💔 But you are infinitely wise, and I trust you are making the best decision for the both of us.

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      9. Oh Mr. Tudor, it works quite differently for me. As Emotional Detective wrote yesterday, you say one thing but all I’m hearing is a symphony of love ❤🎶
        And oh my goodness, the crescendo is my favorite part… Mmmm, my eyes are closed and I’m just feeling the music (aka your love).

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      10. I know 3 young men that lost their life from drinking that cough syrup. It’s a very sensitive subject for me. The way it’s glorified in music, it’s considered a legal drug and not much it’s being done to combat the issue. Big pharmaceutical company are the largest drug dealers in the world. The End

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      11. I’m sorry for your loss. It is quite a tragedy. Kids are easily influenced by music and the media. I agree that big pharma is the biggest pusher.

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      12. Love
        Re: Entertainment and cough syrup
        *** whispers with hand to side of mouth*** Lets see how bad she thinks cough syrup is when she runs out of wine and sleep aids.
        AH COME ON ENTERTAINMENT!!!! IM JUST MESSING WITH YOU!!
        COME BACK! ……… ENTERTAINMENT???……..
        OK. IM SORRY.

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      13. Entertainment, to be honest, I was concerned you’re mixing alcohol and sleeping medication. The meds are very powerful as I’m sure you know. I have been having problems sleeping as well. I’m using eastern therapy and it takes time. Unlike western medicine, there is no instant gratification. But it addresses the root of the problem. Please take care of yourself! Those 2 combined are dangerous. ❤

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      14. Love
        I was just teasing about Entertainment. She said that in jest previously about a post she made. I have no reason to believe there is a problem and should not have reflected that in humor. Just wanted to clear that up so it ends here and I apologize.

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      15. Oh sorry I didn’t read the other post. I’m glad it was just a joke. Don’t stop the humor! You have me cracking up all the time!

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      16. Love and NarcAngel

        Awww, thanks for your concerns. The sleep aid I speak of is 25 milligrams of benadryl. If it gives you guys comfort I don’t take them simultaneously 😊BTW NA I found what you were looking for and gained additional insight. I save my real for the am before I face the world 😊Xanax severe anxiety after the Narc. And a mood stabilizer. Love it am moving towards more holistic treatment such as exercising, eliminating coffee and wine. My diet consist of organic foods and herbs ( not bud) although I am sure it’s probably better. Driving and texting😊

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      17. Love,

        1,Issue…none

        2.Comments towards you? I recall the last time I had a question or comment I came directly to you.

        3. No bones to pick

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  7. Yes, one moment he is raging that I said i loved him, next raging that I said I don’t like him. I. the beginning, there is common ground, looking forfor shared interests…. Next? no matter what I said or did, it made him angry. I get more how its all for control.

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  8. I had to reread post. The only mention of bed is bedroom window. Where’s all the sex, love, and kissing coming from. It must be major shifting in the cosmic.

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    1. Not at all. While I asked myself this very question, I was busy preparing a notepad for said details. I need some inspiration.

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      1. NarcAngel,
        Our curiosity gets the better of us at times.

        Art imitates life, am I right? Inspiration can come in many forms. I do hope Shelly can find her peace though; wet or dry.

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      2. NarcAngel
        I am dissatisfied with your response. I was looking forward to the sequel of “rode hard and thrown out wet”. I am sure suchlike time will come that will usurp this moment and splash💦💦💦💨💨 you will release party 2. (pun intended)

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      3. Find her peace wet or dry….
        I just spluttered coffee all over my phone! And a little bit came out of my nose….

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  9. Haha. Can you taste me (in her obvious text to the new supply), reminds me. My hubs once shut up a guy bragging on and on about doing another guys wife by saying: So how does that guy taste anyway?

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  10. Lol…I remember feeling nervous and unable to sleep because of the yelling and inconsistent behavior, feeling like I was always on the verge of being given the silent treatment…HG, do Greater narcissist use silent treatment at times??

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  11. Yep. When I wore that slinky red dress for him I was his prize…ick. When I wore it out, I was a slut who was asking for it. In that sex respect he made me numb and at the endish, I told him. When the Linkin Park song came out he turned the station.

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  12. 1jaded1
    I bet you looked beautiful in it. More importantly-how did it make you feel? If it made you feel beautiful and desirable or even just strong and owning it, you should wear it again-just for you. You can be an untouchable prize or someone who is not asking for it, but offering it. Point is-you get to decide now. His loss.

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      1. Love. I went back to that post. HG writes so well. Red dress….redress…That song is bittersweet. He thought it was our song…so now it evokes an ickiness as I remember us dancing.

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      2. Are you in my head Love? I thought this same song earlier and enjoyed it again after many years of not hearing it. Still wonderful!

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    1. Narc Angel.

      “Untouchable prize”

      👍A perfectly supportive and empowering comment to 1jaded1.
      (I feel another screenshot coming on…lol..for my own use… a good boost…)
      Like x 100 ⚘

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    2. I had to come back and thank you again. If wear a red dress again, it will be for me. It is his loss. Everytime one of us recovers, it is their loss. Too bad.

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      1. 1Jaded1
        Youre most welcome. I was only reminding you of what you already know but forget to tell yourself.

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  13. When I think of all the times I second guessed myself based on his inconsistencies and lies…it makes me wonder if anything is real. I know I should be happy I escaped but now I question the world around you as a result is also torture.

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  14. Thanks to all of you!!!!! Why you might ask?
    Thank you for all the emails, updates here, in my inbox reminding me I am not alone. Also… remembering the love bombing days before living together waking up waiting for the texting to start. 100 texts per day to take over my mind and soul! For years with texts and calls all day while apart .. to suddenly stop abruptly. That was bizarre and the ever presents is such a powerful tool for his kind.
    My daily rituals have changed and now I am looking forward yet to more updates from all of you!
    Former Broken

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    1. Karma, I like the new name. 😊HG, knowledge of karma is completely different from home we view it. I can’t quote him, maybe he will she’d light on it for us. Seize the power onwards and moving forward.

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      1. That is right Entertainment. As you know I do not believe in it ( I appreciate people would say well I am bound not to!) but also karma is apparently what happens in this life is accounted for in the next life, so it does not mean that one receives some kind of ‘retribution’ in this life for actions taken in this life.

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      2. To clarify I don’t believe in Karma the traditional way .. meaning you will pay for what you have done in this life next life…
        For me its more justice than fate. If you lie to me I am bound to find out (because he was a lousy lier in the first place) and if you break the law eventually police will come after you (sometimes with little help from others). So Karma for me is that N will just have to face up to his shit and deal with the consequences of his behavior. I don’t have to take revenge I have noticed since the tower is falling all by it self. So N is now facing karma. Some get away with it but in most cases they will not. As far as the law is concerned its straight forward – if you break the law you will probably have to face it sooner or later.

        For HG, you are kind of facing my type of karma now according to me. You are in therapy and have to deal with your childhood issues and possibly some women have successfully taken revenge on you or will in the future. What goes around comes right back around. Trust me.. I did bad things as well and have paid for it. Don’t take it the wrong way I do not wish any karma on you 😉

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      3. Katma

        I believe in Karma, I believe that whatever we sow into people lives when come back to us good or bad. Additionally, I believe if it skips that person they will see it manifest in their kids or their kids kids.

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      4. That is just horrible to believe that Children would inherit someone’s bad karma!!!! It would be enough pain to just being brought up by a terrible person. I absolutely do not believe in such a world/universe.
        And all bad things that happened to me due to the N can only be explained that he is an aweful individual. But I have done things in my life where I am sure karma/justice played a part.

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      5. Karma,

        I agree that our off springs should not have to pay for the wrong we well may have caused others or from our parents.

        On the brighter side to that if we sow seeds of kindness ,compassion , love, and humility towards other we shall reap the same rewards.

        What I wrote was written a long time ago. If we were to practice mindfulness our reactions towards others will yield positive results. I am still working on myself in that area.

        Sorry, if it appeared to be harsh and unkind it wasn’t meant to be.

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      6. Entertainment and Karma

        Your exchange raises a good point. If there is such a thing as karma, how is it that it can be believed children will not inherit “bad” karma but will accept the concept of any good traits inherited and put it down to “good” karma. Seems a bit selective to me.

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      7. It’s all about interpretation I guess.. I’ll resort to simply say justice from now on but will keep my name 😏
        I believe in good and evil … and justice… so we don’t invite the Law of attraction folks who believe we attract cancer etc…
        damn did I just open a can of worms now?

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      8. Tell me more about this law of attraction Karma, I have my own Laws of Attraction but they are clearly covering something else.

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      9. No problem .. I might not give the full picture nor an academic response so don’t judge me too hard.
        It’s a movement and I am sure you have heard about Abraham Hicks and the book “The Secret”.
        Basically you ask, let go and receive. Universe is the spirit/master and what ever you put out in universe you will receive. I know many celebrities in the States follow and it’s what I would call a new age movement.
        Of course if we are happy, enthusiastic and never think negative thoughts we tend to have a happier life. However the message that all is according to the “law of the Universe” tends to yet again be a question of “why did I get cancer.. why am I poor?” According to the movement .. it’s because you don’t let go after you ask.
        So if I were to ask universe for abundance (a favorite word or theirs) and one million dollars .. universe will give it to me.
        So… again a bit Karma I’d say.
        If it makes people happy they should go for it but don’t get disappointed when it doesn’t work!
        Cheers

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      10. HG
        Truer words not spoken. Waiting for good things only works in fairytales. Thats why there are so many victims to your kind.

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      11. No you don’t have to take things, that is a learned perspective from something being taken from you. One you became very good at doing.
        I mean no criticism in saying this, you are good at what you do.

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      12. Karma
        Secrets huh? Maybe I should get this book to read while Im riding to work on my Unicorn. All letting go ever got me was a massive hangover and regret.

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      13. You need to google them .. YouTube videos and quite funny. Very cosmic and in my opinion surreal. But as I said before it’s a matter of taste.
        I agree with HG… we have to take what we want and need..
        I want to borrow your unicorn 🦄 ☺️🤣

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      14. Are you talking about the Abraham Hicks videos?
        Lol I see taking as wrong, making things happen yes. You can’t throw out this oh I desire this and then sit on your duff and expect it to be delivered, you can thou make things happen by working for them.
        I believe HG makes things happen, yet he also takes what he wants. No disrespect towards anyone.
        Sorry for jumping in.

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      15. I totally agree with you and yes speaking about AH.
        Apparently the book was secret at first .. I just had to buy it yesterday and I can see how desperate people would fall for it. No offense to anyone who is a believer ..
        And HG teachings are now officially my new religion! No contact … just one rule to follow to get eternal happiness ☺️🤣

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      16. A friend aka his lieutenant, told me about AH and how I needed to watch the YT video, curious I did and haven’t Again.
        Another friend gave me a copy of the secret believing I would be interested in it. I read about 10 pages and tossed in into a box I fill to give away.
        One of HGs books was sitting on my desk, it took me about two weeks to read all of his books and about a month to read everything on his blog. I had already read every book I could get my hands on that talked about this subject. So I understood, HGs way of presenting this information is by far the best. He impressed me with his forthright approach and honesty here.

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      17. NA

        We are still on Karma. How did you get to kamasutra? Hangovers, unicorns, and regret. You forgot to mention aching muscles.

        In all seriousness, I highly recommend The Secret..

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      18. Entertainment.. please let me know why you recommend it? I just read it on my way back from my business tip (horrible turbulence) and hmmm … but open to hear your opinion and why you liked it? Damn we need a separate place for these discussions not to ruin HGs site! Sorry HG!

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      19. Karma,

        I recommend it pretty much for the reasons stated. I also think it’s a great read for people that doesn’t believe in the bible. The Bible teaches us about how God loves us so much he gave is only Son. Also, tells us too show that same type of love to everyone not just those who love us. It talks about how to have peace within although things may seem bad remember someone else has it worst. It teaches you to be greatful for every day. It talks about helping others and finding our purpose in life. It teaches you to enjoy the simplest things how to remove negative people/things out of your life so the positive will attract to you. Every feeling we have can be sense by others. So if we are always negative, have fear and lack confidence we will attract the same type of person and evening worse narcs. Your outer appearance may look well because we can dress pain up so well. But the negative forces see the fear, insecurity and facade we as people carry. Only when you find internal happiness, accept your faults, then the path to true happiness begin.
        I never go back to reread, I hope it makes sense.

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      20. Entertainment
        I know a throw down when I see it lol
        The Secret is good for those who dont do the bible is it?
        I have a response to your post but I am indisposed at present so will post later.

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      21. BTW, it’s no secret. They took parts of several existing books and with the help of Oprah Winfrey sold millions of copies. I do believe we can control happiness or misery.

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      22. Dear E
        Thank you for your response. As I said it can be valuable for some but I’m just afraid that people get involved in the money machine it is. Absolutely agree with your regarding the happiness part.. for me it’s fake it until you make it due to the PTSD. N took away the joy to cook, bake, go to restaurants, shop, celebration on holidays etc. the ever presens is strong and he made it that way. Infiltrated every aspect of my life and lingering. Silent treatment, hoovering after my attempts to talk and the silent treatment again. He robbed my from my happiness and at one point I did not want to live. Still struggling and the triggers are present every second of my day. So I read everything I can get my hands on to get help. This is the absolutely best place and I hope my misery will end soon. Good things are now coming my way and bad his way and I am cautious because I need to get the hell out of here far far away. Day 21 NC (me not reaching out and in respons to his silent treatment) and religious or not I pray every day I will make it this time. I grasp for anything that might be a reason to reach out.. finally I realize it’s useless.

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      23. I noticed you found out already and you were scorned for showing concern. I know you recognize when someone is begging for help. It seems your intentions to start a constructive dialogue was genuine. 😊

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      24. Ah yes, thank you for clarifying. It truly was genuine. I maintain that Im a bitch but Im not mean for Christ sake.

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      25. That’s okay sometimes bring a bitch is good. It’s shows in your responses that you care about the persons welling although sometimes raw. But it’s good raw, not just some power driven selfish ranting bitch that doesn’t attempt to help and comfort others.

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      26. Entertainment
        Oh I can do that too, Im just saving that for you the next time you get out of line lol.

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      27. NA
        I don’t doubt that for a second, unfortunately I can’t tell you how I would respond. Yours probably come out on the same day as mine. After the playing with the narc, that bitch is bolder now and shows up more frequently. 😁😁

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      28. NA, i am enjoying this dialog btwn you and Entertainment. Truce? We started off on the wrong foot, but i am getting used to, and sometimes surprised by and enjoying some of your bold mannerisms. I wish you the best and look forward to more interaction with you.

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      29. Jenna
        Are you prev PTSD? There is a Jen on here too and I thought you were Jen as opposed to Jenna so my apologies for breaching your no contact. I have no ill will for you Jenna. Never did. It was a complete misunderstanding. I was not conveying myself correctly and you received it differently than was intended and then it escalated. Its all good baby girl.

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      30. NA, yes i am previously ‘ptsdafternarcabuse.’ I was ‘jen’ for abt a week, then realized that name is already taken, so changed to the longer form ‘jenna.’ No prblm breaching the no contact. They say best friends start off as enemies lol! 😉

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      31. Thanks Entertainment.. I think I will do a Narc and hide for a month or two.. you know deploy silent treatment on the commenters 🤣🤣🤣
        I’m waiting with great anxiety for this thread to explode!!!

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      32. No need to pull a silent treatment, you may get the urge to log on as another person changed your name and start conversations with yourself. Dont worry its all about HG if you start getting too much attention he will shut it down. 😊 Check out the hits..

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      33. Ha ha … No need to reply to my own rants dear but thanks for the suggestion.
        I hereby stop with this topic and get back to N business

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      34. NA,

        It’s in my opinion they could inherit both good and bad.

        I know you don’t do the bible, but it’s also mentioned in there just a different name with the same meaning.
        BTW, next time I drink pinot and post I am going to leave all my crazy messages under a new profile name. 😊I asked a person a question under one name she responded under another. I will give each personality it’s own name.

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      35. ENTERTAINMENT
        Correct. I do not DO the bible, but it has been in many a drawer next to me while I have been DOING something else. 😉

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      36. Many narcs have opened that drawer place their hands on it and vowed to love me forever 😉Who would like with their hand on the bible. Jk I should have known better.

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  15. well then, that being said, if you believe in Karma, then victims of a Narc must have had a HUGE Karma debt to pay in the form of suffering…

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    1. I would be very interested to see what responses you would get to such a statement Ms Brown if you posted that in certain FB Groups. I wonder how long it would take before someone would suggest that they must have been one of our kind in a previous life!

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      1. HG, since I am anti-FB, perhaps someone else would like to do this as an experiment?? *wink wink*

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    2. I kinda sorta believe in karma. Not the payback-in-another-life kind (we’ll leave that to Dante’s Divine comedy), but the you’ll-get-what’s-coming-to-you-in-this-life kind.

      I don’t believe all suffering should necessarily be tied to some past misdeeds. Sometimes bad things just happen to good people because… Well, they can. It doesn’t follow that every nasty thing that happens to us is due to some nasty thing​ we did in the past – some, maybe. All? No. That’s not how karma’s supposed to work.

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      1. Ms Brown

        If thats true about Karma as punishment for past transgressions, I must have been a demon in utero.

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      2. Starting to get to know you here and I see that I will like all of you. Marc angel we might fight at a later stage but for now You are growing on me!

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      3. Karma is a actually a Sanskrit word that means ‘action’…
        The “term” karma, connects actions and results….. hence,
        “The Law of Karma”.
        Karma not only justifies the present situation of an individual but also rationalizes the cycle of birth and death.
        I know this only because I have traveled, studied and put pieces into practice of Taoism, Buddhism and Hinduism…. It is interesting to me all the other interpretations people come up with, regarding Karma….

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      4. I’m aware of what it stands for (MA in religion) but as in all religions we interpret the meaning as we see fit. Not according to everybody’s liking, but that is how it is…
        I believe we all have to find our own way in life and to cope with the theodicy despite being religious or spiritual or not.
        It’s all about survival I guess but thank you for your kind input. Interesting discussion and even that I was laughing quite hard due to Shelly I prefer this type of discussions. 😊

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      5. But isn’t that the point, Ms brown? That people’s​ interpretation of a thing or a concept be one that they can relate to? Especially if said concept can not be quantified, proved, or disproved? Why do we have to ‘box in’ what others choose to interpret karma as? We might as well dictate interpretations on the concept of… Love, maybe? Faith? Spirituality? Morality? These are all pretty subjective.

        The concept of Karma is one that exists in many cultures the world over. ‘Karma’ is just the commonly known term. So why should we restrict ourselves only to the Sanskrit definition of a universal concept that has variations from culture to culture?

        I’m from Africa. I’ve been to all the continents on the globe, so I’ve experienced different cultures and their concept of Karma. In Africa, my tribe has it’s interpretation of Karma, as do other tribes and ethnicities and religions and races all over the world.

        The Concept is NOT a preserve of Buddhism or Taoism or Hinduism. No single group has a monopoly in the interpretation of what we collectively call Karma. Just because we garnish it with phrases like ‘The law of’ does not make it absolute. The entire concept, complete with interpretation, can be disputed.

        I do not dispute it, however. I just have my own non-Buddhist interpretation of the concept you call Karma. Where I’m from we call it ‘Majuto’.

        Now, back to narcissist.

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      6. I simply stated facts and yes, you and anyone else can perceive and interpret as you wish. HOWEVER, The idea of Karma first appears in the oldest Hindu text of Rigveda, which is 1500 BCE. It DOES have its root in South Asian Philosophy and tradition, which encompasses Hinduism and Buddhism…

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    3. No worries .. I actually meditate and do mindfulness everyday and work hard to love so I hear you. My lovely child is innocent and so is the N (used to be my children). I get very protective when it comes to them. Sad is that what happened to us also affect our children but all the effort is put to make it up to them now!

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      1. I bet when you changed your name you weren’t thinking of half of this blip.😊

        I am sure reconcile with self and thought forget revenge, for the hurt, I am just going to sit back and let Karma bite him in the a**.

        There’s good in everything you can now join the rest of us crazies. One day you will look back and laughed at all of this even him. Continued growth and healing.

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      1. Are you related 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
        You made me laugh soooo hard Entertainment

        Ms Brown it’s a crazy world and we are just trying to survive ☺️

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      2. Karma,
        We maybe lol..surviving is what we do best one day at a time. This definitely will make us all stronger. We similar experiences shared pain caused by these pyschos. HG, has really out done himself allowing us a sanctuary to vent and bond and share our experiences.
        He may not like the sanctuary part, but the good docs should be proud.

        We aren’t just existing, we are living, growing, developing as stinger individuals. Kinda makes the experience with the narcotics worth it. Jk straight b.s. there.😊

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      3. Entertainment… I think he does like it and genuinely care that we survive .. see I still have faith and hope for his kind too. I believe there is love and empathy somewhere deep down in them. My psychiatrist told me that the anxiety and void we feel due to what has happen to us will fade but it stays forever with the Ns. Ex N who ruined my life is truly damaged by his mother and childhood, so many broken relationships and marriages, women going mental, business going bankrupt over and over again IS a sign that how matter how hard he tries … the void and disparity can never be fulfilled completely. We are junkies but will one day be free… they are forever fuel junkies and the lack there of as well as age is their biggest fear. HG? Am I completely wrong or do I have understood parts of it?
        Kind regards, Hobby analyst

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      4. Nothingness is the fear. Age may hold a concern for some of our kind but not all. This is because of some of our kind are well-equipped to embrace aging (good genes, healthy lifestyle, groomed, stay in shape etc) and others because they are deluded as to their abilities (see Time and the Narcissist Parts One and Two). There is a void, absolutely. The haphazard and volatile matters which you mention are symptomatic of some of our kind but again not all as it depends on the relevant school and cadre.

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      5. The fear is the creature – the real self. But what is the real self really that is fearsome? As you’ve said before, it’s the creature. This has me going in circles. But i will be patient and wait for the book ‘The Creature.’
        “Nothingness is the fear” as you’ve stated above. Am i getting closer?

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      6. Karma
        Interesting. What causes you to say that we are junkies but one day we will be free?

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      7. Sorry… he was toxic and I am on a detox from him. I see myself as a junkie for his shit and I have withdraw problems.. wanting to reach out…

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  16. F**k it. Damned if you do..Damned if you dont….The best thing about this post is we buried broken.

    End the Theatrics onward..

    The End

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      1. Narcangel .. all the way down from my great great great grandfather ☺️..
        nope just seen your style .. like it but we’ll end up in good discussion I believe and they might get heated. I am 99% of the time very calm, kind and sane, but if you catch me at a bad moment I hope you don’t get angry. My soul purpose here is to get answers and support and so far above my expectations.
        We come from different parts of the world and because I’m not a native speaker sometimes it’s hard to express myself in a way that don’t piss people off!

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      2. Karma
        What part of the world are you from? No worries about the language. English is my language and I still manage to abort it and piss plenty of people off. If I need clarification I’ll ask but, so far I would not have known English was not your first language. So what if I get mad? Youre not going to let someone intimidate or limit you are you? Isnt that part of the reason youre here?

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      3. Europe is home…
        Nope nobody will intimidate me but after all the anger is gone I just want to be calm and don’t fight with those who finally understand what I have gone through. This is the place for rescue. Just wish that HG would open a separate platform where we can chat in private. A place we could open up but be safe. I’d love to give the full story and rant. And the long waiting for new comments are hard… I have read every post there is and many books. Would love to get a real sanctuary where we could simply get it all out. Found a nice place before I thought but it was just a terrible place with people who did not want to get out of their misery, get real answers and be kind. See I need to rant a bit! Thanks for your kindness!!!

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      4. Hi Karma, I hear your need to share and ‘get it out’.
        Not only do I need to share I need to hear also.
        Education-understanding-truth-acceptance.
        I believe these 4 components are needed before freedom can be achieved.
        I asked HG if there was any way we could hook up privately. I was happy for my email address to become public so I could ‘hear’ people’s stories if they wished to share.
        By hearing others stories not only does it help me personally but it helps in my research in forwarding my training as a domestic abuse counsellor. (Something good WILL come out of my personal nightmare!)
        Unfortunately my questions to HG never made it through moderation but hopefully this one might.
        I hear ya loud and clear Karma. Fingers crossed

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      5. Karen1303
        It has been discussed previously and you may have missed it, but the exchange of personal or identifying information is not possible. I personally believe its a good call.

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      6. Hi Narcangel, yes I do understand now. I was still pretty new back then but the more time I spend here the more I get it and understand the dynamics 😊

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      7. Karma
        Im interested to know why you feel a separate platform is required, and do not consider this to be a real sanctuary where you can open up, give the full story/rant, and be safe. You may be laboring under a false apprehension as I see no evidence that you are discouraged from doing so or that we are unsafe. Please be honest about your specific concerns.

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    1. NA, to expand, as HG stated in the article, one wk he likes sugar in his tea, the next wk he purposely doesn’t. One day he likes to sleep with the bedrm window open (Love or I might crawl in). The next day he purposely doesn’t, just to rouse us, to gain emotion, bewilderment, and fuel. Luckily, my ex doesn’t switch his likes and dislikes in this manner for fuel. He stays constant.

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      1. Jenna
        Yes, I understand. HGs explanation. I meant did you mean yours didnt switch from one appliance to another or from positive to negative fuel. I would think one or both of these would have to occur if he is a Narc.

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      2. NA, my ex didn’t switch his likes or preferences for positive or negative fuel. To gain fuel, he pours on the charm. He tries to be kind to everybody (the facade). He says he ‘never’ does anything that a person won’t like. He loves positive fuel. He honestly hates negative fuel. He hates when somebody cries. HG said it’s because he doesn’t want to accept blame for the crying, hence a type of blame shifting. So, he is a type of narc who likes positive fuel only. However, since he’s only in his 20’s, he may soon realize and begin to like the taste of negative fuel. You never know.

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      3. Lol Jenna! Knowing Mr. Tudor, he would probably have a booby trap set out for us once we crawl into the bedroom window. And he most likely has the police on speed dial to charge us with breaking and entering.

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  17. This is way late to the party. I do tarot readings…mostly for myself bc I inspire hate when readings seem to come true to others. My last 2 readings involved Judgement…which in certain circumstances mean karma. I interpret this to mean this life. What goes around comes around. Nonsensical comment. Feel free to not post it, HG.

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