The Errors of the Ignorant – No. 4

HE HASKEPT INTOUCHWITH YOUALL THISTIME YOUMUST MEANSOMETHING TO TO HIM

A series based on the comments made by people who fail to understand the true nature of narcissists and the narcissistic dynamic. Whilst these comments may be well-intentioned, they are incorrect, perpetuate misunderstandings and in many cases create false hope, dashed expectations and perilous outcomes.

It is often the case that a victim of our kind finds that the (unidentified) narcissist continues to keep in touch with them. As I have explained on many occasions, we will always look to hoover you whether it is post escape or post discard because there is the prospect of fuel and potentially the opportunity to draw you back into the Formal Relationship. Those hoovers are governed by the Hoover Triggers and also the Hoover Execution Criteria. If you are unaware of the nature of the person that you became entangled with, it is highly likely that you will keep triggering hoovers and the bar will be set low on the criteria, which means you will be regularly hoovered.

This may seem to somebody like we are just keeping in touch, wanting to see you, perhaps explain why things did not work out, organise to address outstanding issues. Those are the most likely views taken where the dynamic has been between narcissist and Intimate Partner Primary Source (“IPPS”). It does not end there however. In this dynamic, you will have been devalued and this will cause you to question certain behaviours that you have experienced and witnessed. If you are an Intimate Partner Secondary Source (Shelf or Dirty Secret) you may well not have experienced any devaluation and instead you are seen only at certain intervals, picked up and put down and we keep coming back to you, seeing you, sending you pleasant messages as we future fake and provide comfort crumbs. There is no ‘traditional’ malevolent behaviour towards you and yet you find yourself not elevated to a position of IPPS, so you find it strange that you are not referred to as the girlfriend or you do not meet our family and friends.

Whether you were the IPPS and you are now being repeatedly hoovered or you are the IPSS who keeps getting picked up and put down, these ongoing interactions can last for years. We have embedded you into our fuel matrix and whilst you may never return to the position of IPPS (or be crowned as such) you remain an appliance that we draw fuel from. This leaves you perplexed. We are intimate with you (or have been), we talk of future plans with you, appear to confide in you, yet there is not the sensation of being in that formal intimate relationship of partner, spouse, boyfriend or girlfriend. This leaves you puzzled as to what you mean to this person and why we keep engaging with you even though there appears to be no end game in sight.

Labouring under this situation you seek advice from a third party who listens to you explain the dynamic. They are likely to gloss over the devaluation (if you were once an IPPS) preferring not to get involved in conflict again and instead focus on what appears to be a more constructive interaction now as you are hoovered. Whether it is being hoovered or being placed on the shelf and removed from it, this advisor will deduce that our continued interest in you and our efforts to keep in touch with you (which may be strenuous at times – for instance tracking you down after you have moved) ) means that we are clearly interested in you and this should be regarded as ‘a good thing’.

No it is not.

The advisor is likely to suggest that because you clearly mean something to us that you should continue this engagement with us, perhaps look to increase it if we remain interested also (invariably you are) and therefore great things are on the horizon.

No they are not.

The only things you mean to us are in accordance with the Prime Aims (fuel, character traits and residual benefits).

This prolonged contact is born out of our need to secure these Prime Aims and keep you within our fuel matrix. We want to keep drawing fuel from you and we do this through the repeated hovering (even though we may never put the Formal Relationship of boyfriend and girlfriend back into place). We do this through taking you off the shelf and engaging with you as an IPSS and then putting you back there when we turn to somebody else. We will continue to do this for as long as we are able. Perhaps we will restore you to the position of IPPS following these hoovers or we might promote you from IPSS to IPPS and of course your continued engagement with us appears to have paid off. In the short terms yes, but ultimately that promotion or restoration is a poisoned one as your devaluation as IPPS will come about.

If there is no restoration or promotion you will be kept in this state of purgatory, never sure precisely what you are to us. You see us sometimes and then not on other occasions. You hear of us doing things with family but you may not be invited to join in. Certain social occasions are excluded from you also. You feel close to us because of the way we make you feel when we are with you but at the same time there feels like a gulf between us because we are not admitting you entirely into our lives. You may feel like the Other Woman or Man, you may feel like the Friend With Benefits, you may feel like the Secret Shag, you may feel like you are Permanently In Waiting and if it is this last one, you are correct. You are permanently in waiting as you are at our whim and pleasure. If we want to engage with you, we will, if we do not, we will not.

By convincing you that this elongated song and dance translates into you meaning something to us, your advisor has made an error of the ignorant. They have given you false hope that you are special to us, that we will make good on all those future fakes, on all those tempting promises and that those comfort crumbs will somehow gather together to make a Relationship Cake. They might, but it will not be to your taste in the end and more likely, they will not and five years later, ten years later, twenty years later you are still the one waiting for us to call and pick you up as you realise that your life has been placed on hold and all because you were made to think that this narcissistic behaviour of hoovering/shelfing denoted that you were special and you meant something to us.

If you recognise this behaviour in your dynamic with someone or that it is happening to someone else you know and care about, do not commit the error of the ignorant and enlighten them to the reality of what they are in and what awaits them.

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133 thoughts on “The Errors of the Ignorant – No. 4”

  1. Did I tell you you are amazing, HG? What an incredibly insightful piece! How long can the shelving of the IPSS last before she is taken off the shelf? Is there some length of time after which the IPSS can assume she will never be taken off the shelf? Thank you!

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  2. The most common “error of ignorant” that has happened in my situation, was, “He will come around.” A friend or family member would say this about the N, whenever he would bail on obligations and special moments that didn’t revolve around him. Sure, he will come around, but not in the way you have in mind.

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  3. Most, but not all therapists are fucking clueless when it comes to your kind, doing horrendous damage to their empath clients who trust their advice assuming that they are being protected because a so-called schooled professional is doling out such advice. What can I say, HG? I wish you’d been around twenty years ago. Gratefully, you are here now.

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    1. This is soooo sadly true. I’ve spent anywhere from $100 to $200 a week for the last 30 years only to hear the worst advice I’ve ever gotten. I’m guessing I chose super empath therapists since I’m a super empath. They just don’t know. HG is the ONLY person who has helped me see my own behavior and the narcs behavior. To think I could’ve saved all that money and time by reading his blog, books and a $30 email session and get all the help I really needed all along. I too am beyond grateful to have stumbled upon you HG. You’ve freed me from slavery, you’ve made it possible for me to hang on to more of my income and I can count on you to often make me laugh in the midst of the cold hard truth. Nothing but love for you❤️

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      1. Actually it is $40 now. LOL. I just booked an email consult last night after thinking it over for a few weeks. I should have done it sooner. 😉
        I am going to be working on my questions today.

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  4. That was a fantastic morning read HG.
    So true. I was not easy narc bait as I questioned him many times without giving out fuel (I think) as I could not understand him, felt sorry for him and wanted to help him despite being ill myself. I am at last free and happy as you have been the icing on my cake. Like you my parents have a lot to answer for but I have little to do with them now. The experience with the narc taught me a really good lesson. To love myself for what I am and now I do. I will be very aware not to fall back to default. So many thanks HG and I hope you get what you want from the good doctors.

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  5. I want to understand how to do no contact with a narcissist who you had a family with and you have to co parent with , my ex is constantly belittle me about the way I raise our kids, he use to constantly point all the blame on me after he left me for his new supply who he was having an affair with and i had no clue at all . Out of the blue blamed me said he can’t be with me we constantly fight he never cared for me and I was confused like what happened now that I read these blogs and listen to your interviews I understand it so clear now .i was just feeding him and when I didn’t show him the affection or jealousy he stepped to the new one, What I’m afraid of is he’ll reel me back in and I want to prepare myself to WALK AWAY AND STAY AWAY . But it is hard when we have kids

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    1. B.
      When you share kids together, no contact is not an option. Limited contact is difficult yet possible. I divorced my narc ex husband 8 years ago. It was Hell in the beginning. What was worse was that he was constantly sending threatening texts about taking our kids away from me. I would fight back like a madwoman texting angrily or replying to his emails frustrated that this jerk had so much power over me & how he laughed when I was screaming ….he would say “Say more! Swear at me some more!” Finally, I learned not to answer him at all. It drove him insane. If he texts you or emails you in a threatening manner, for God’s sake, DO NOT REPLY. DO NOT REACT. Keep records of any texts/emails. If he puts you down & criticizes the way you are raising the kids, do not reply and look blankly at the area behind him. My ex wanted me for my money & my connections…also, I made him look good…Yes, he never loved me. It hurts that I wasted 10 years on this guy. The thing is though, 8 years on, I have aged better, I am more confident, I have a decent living, & the kids are thriving. Just recently one of my ex husband’s friends told my daughter “Tell your mom that she did an incredible job raising you and your brother.”
      My advice is to find a relationship expert therapist who is familiar with narcissism. Also DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH regarding narcissists.
      He will always try to reel you in …you will always share a connection because of your kids. Learn how to look at everything with “COLD, HARD, LOGIC” like HG has advised (thanks you for that HG) Learn how to look at your situation from an unemotional observer. It took me years to finally have control over my emotions and how to detach from them. Prayer, yoga, meditation, & therapy helped enormously. Good luck, B. I am rooting for you & have faith that you can get through this.

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  6. Shit….
    It’s the sex….you are being sexed up just by his presence and you forget everything.
    You think you can indulge just one more time and you’ll worry about the consequences later…
    And there you are, back in the loop again and no way out.
    All it took was a stupid 10 words phrase to fill my imagination with wild sexual phantasies…
    And I don’t even think he could deliver these fantasies…it’s all in my head….

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  7. OMHG!
    You have me in permanently waiting! No wonder I feel like I’m at the dmv with you. I’ve been bamboozled. You’ve gone no contact with me. I could record some crying for you, would that help? I thought we were going to rendezvous, ha! I can still fall for a narcissists tricks. That’s good to know in case Mr. Black has an accident. Thanks HG *calling down from shelf* (I do make a great decorative piece)

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    1. ABB
      I have been wanting to ask you why do you write comments that at times looks like you know HG and then at times as if you would have an affair?
      I don’t mean any offense, and if I am coming across a little bit grumpy I do apologize.

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      1. With an awareness and chasing HG, I seriously doubt that
        Greaters have an awareness and you are not one

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      2. Interesting as to you “might” have an affair, didn’t you say you were a minister? In reality I don’t care if you so chose that path, it is one that only involves hurting a man you have claimed to be good and those closest to you.

        I doubt you actually know HG, he has stated he knows no one here on the blog. So to insinuate you do, says your calling him a liar here on the blog.
        Why in the world would you insinuate that?

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      3. ABB has made it quite clear what she would like to do with HG and that she has Mr. Black’s full support! I can’t imagine HG would hook up with someone on his blog. Maybe so. The good doctors would definitely frown on that.

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      4. I say Go Wild and Do it! You are not chained by the good doctors’ rules. Let love happen! ❤❤❤
        And of course tell us all about it.

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      5. Lol – Oh Love! She is not chained by doctor’s rules, but that of the vows she took to her husband to remain faithful.
        Now someone single… your advice could be very supportive. Haha

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      6. 12345

        To have a fantasy about “hooking” up with HG is understandable, to insinuate you have isn’t and misleading.

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      7. Awww thanks, Twilight😊 To insinuate you know anything about me other than the things I’ve written on this site is misleading. If you’ve decided that I have fantasized about hooking up with HG than so be it. I would have to be physically bigger to give less of a shit what you’ve decided about me. Have a great Saturday 😘

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      8. Interesting that you came to ABB defense, then took my comment as if it was directed towards you and became defensive.
        Hmm do you know French toast web?
        Have a wonderful Saturday to!

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      9. Ok you have clearly read the wrong post. I have NEVER come to ABB’s defense and can’t imagine a time when I ever would. And yes since you directly addressed me by my screen name I thought you were addressing me. Here is what you said to me “12345, to have a fantasy about “hooking” up with HG is understandable, to insinuate you have isn’t and misleading”. Please Twilight, show me where I have ever defended ABB.

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      10. When you said ABB has made it clear what she would like to do, all my statement was to fantasy is understandable, she has insinuate to have met with him, that is misleading.
        Not once did I state to know you in that and you came at me.
        So I took this as you are defending ABB
        I am not reading the entire thread at the moment due to being at work and only what come is sent.

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      11. Well Twilight one thing is for certain and that’s that this is silly. I have no bone to pick with you and I understand your post now. I thought you were defending her so my apologies. I do not endorse anything ABB says.

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      12. Twilight, after connecting the dots of further posts, I really think you meant to direct this post to ABB but you addressed me.

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      13. Yes I did I went and read the thread. The way it came through in my notifications it looked to be directed towards me.

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    2. Lolol You crack me up ABB 😂
      Yes, do send Mr. Tudor a recording of your crying. Perhaps in C minor? It will be a treasured piece of fuel 😁

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      1. Lol! Flirting with Mr. Tudor is like flirting with the Queen’s Gaurd. They are expressionless. Can’t get them to even crack a smile.

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      2. HG!
        I have always had ( and still have) huge respect and admiration for your work on this site. But why do you let all these comments( ABB’s) go through?
        Is it because you want us to see :
        How low a person can go?
        How obsessed a person can be?
        For a purpose of another Case study?

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      3. Hello Superxena

        No it doesn’t, I have just walked into a mess at work and it will be a couple of hours before I can put together my thoughts.

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      4. Hello Twilight! It seems that my comments about the posts of certain blogger were offending. I assume HG thinks it is ok with these comments since he allows them throw. It is a little bit annoying because I personally do not think this is the forum for doing that..but then again I might be mistaken …How are you?

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      5. Hello Superxena
        I am great! I am in agreement with you on I don’t believe this is the forum to do such, but it is HGs and he is gracious enough to let things through to give everyone a voice.
        My issue is with insinuating something that is a lie.

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      6. Hi again Twilight!
        I do understand your point. As I wrote you before , these comments have been going on for quite a long time. I am quite “new” ( as you are?) here compared to other bloggers. So I was not aware of that.
        What it is interesting is the way this blog either by comments or HG’s post triggers us…
        Yes, HG let’s some comments through but some others he does not allow. He must have a reason/aim for doing that. As I said, I hope you can drop it..it is not really of our concern. We all have our own story connected with a narc…so our reactions are understandable.
        Sorry to hear about your experiences with narcs. What happened to your store?

        My weekend has been fabulous😎 I hope your weekend turns to be better and you get a bit happier!!! Best wishes

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      7. Hi Superxena

        Thanks things always get better, it is just a bump in the road at the moment.
        This person was sent to my store after taking one store that wasn’t doing so good claiming he could improve it and drove it into the ground then claimed he wasn’t given a fair chance, to prove himself, so they sent them to mine. Let’s just say insinuating lies came out into the open and now this person is gone, but not before a serious loss was taken.
        Glad to hear your weekend is great. Tomorrow is the start of mine and beautiful weather to enjoy as well.

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      8. Superxena

        I may not agree with what is let through, but he gives people a voice where none has been.
        I am not against the humor and admiration of HG.
        Insinuating lies gets me, then to insinuate being a narcissist to which would mean you have an awareness.
        I do apologize if I am coming across grouchy, dealing with a greater and what a mid did to my store, and what has been happening I am exhausted 😩 and in a bad mood. If it wasn’t for the fact I would be giving my ex what he wants him and I would be head to head.
        I don’t usually rewrite what I post, just want to be clear in what I meant.
        I do hope your weekend is fabulous

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      9. Twilight! It seems that bothnyou and I are quite “new” on this blog. It seems like these Abb’s comments have been going on for quite a long time! So I really hope you can drop it…it is really not of our concern!!

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      10. Superxena I have been here for a while, I went under a different name and had to change it.
        In the beginning I actually wondered if HG was lying, I almost left because of this.
        It takes a long time before I say anything, I don’t just jump and say anything.

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      11. Twilight! I have been here for about 3-4 months.At the beginning just as an observer..I am more active now with comments. HG lying about what?

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      12. Superxena

        I have been here almost a year now, I observe. I have not made many comments until recently.
        When I first came here one of the things that bothered me was the insinuations of knowing HG, yet I had read he didn’t know anyone.
        I came here for answers and for another to insinuate that they know him when he has stated he knows no one personally didn’t sit well with me. At that time I was grieving the loss of not only my daughter but a relationship. How could I trust to get answers if I thought he was lying. I never said a word here on the blog and continue to observe. If I had lefted due to an emotional reaction I would never have gotten the answers.
        I never said HG lied. I apologize if what I said came across as I did.

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      13. Hello Twilight!
        First of all I am so sorry for your loss! My deepest condolences!

        Hard times for you…I hope you have a near friend/ family network that supports you through this.Too much pain to endure just by yourself.

        I understand your reaction about certain comments implying things that are not true.
        I am just trying to be objective ,although it is hard sometimes.Besides I think those type of comments give a little bit of a” humorous touch”to this site that sometimes is good ( if it does not go over the edge). I understand as well that some of these comments are inappropriate to some bloggers ( me among others). But can you see it more objective? As entertaining?

        I will continue of course commenting and expressing myself when I feel the need of doing it😀.
        About trusting HG: I guess your reflections about trusting HG or not are shared with some other bloggers. But can you see it this way? : Can you trust HG’ s INFORMATION he is providing us? I know it is hard to detach HG as a person from his work. Believe me, I have been there and it is not easy! I think it is the best way of getting the best of his work!
        Best wishes!

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      14. Hello Superxena
        Thank you for your condolences.
        I do understand people need a way to release the hurt, anger and pain they have endured. Sometimes that means lashing out at HG, because they can’t to the one that they were involved with. Some deal with things with humor. There is one here that lavishes HG with “love” and yes she may go overboard but this is her way of releasing her pain. I have watched all of these people come to HG and be able to express what was needed at him yet not “be” with him and move to the next step in healing. He is the stand in where none wasn’t.
        Not one of these people have insinuate knowing HG and HG having to repeat himself to them in making it clear this isn’t so. Why is this person stuck repeating?
        I understand why you have asked if I can see things objectively or with humor, I do. Many times I have come here and read through and laughed at the banter going back and forth.
        If people want to tell their stories awesome, I am not one of those people to say much. I have bits and pieces.

        As far as HG, I went to him about another issue and his honesty with me is what cleared that issue of him lying or not and I stayed. I have no issues with him. I hold a deep respect for him and his work. This place is amazing answers and support from those that understand what it is like. Validation.

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      15. TwilightDawn, I hope you’re just going by Twilight because its shorter. I know you said the name change to TD was because of healing. Hopefully that hasn’t stopped. I’ve read many of your comments from nearly the start and they’ve been powerful. You’ve endured a lot of pain … But I believe you are a very strong woman… I also sense you have extra empath gifts. Curious if you have read about highly sensitive people (hsp)?

        That aside, I think there are many cultural differences on this site. Ex. Even though I need my alone time, I’m usually very friendly and expressive with people in real life. I flirt and give compliments, laugh often and joke. I gravitate towards similar types of people because they keep things light and fun. I’ve noticed certain regions of the US along with different countries are more sociable. More smiles and welcoming demeanors. It is neither good or bad. Just what I’m familiar and comfortable with.
        I was laughing to myself thinking how Mr. Tudor would be if he was from another culture. I know he can’t be his true self because of the 5 rules… But I picture him not so stoic, extremely flirtatious, very charming, a tease, perhaps messy. Granted this blog would eventually become a tornado of drama and most likely implode… But like I said, that kind of personality is culturally normal for me.

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      16. Hi Love
        Yes I shorten it back to twilight, no I am still moving forward.
        I am familiar with hsp, and your suspicion is correct I have many gifts to which I think more of curses at times.
        I do agree with you and the many different cultures here on the blog, keeping things light and humorous is nice, sometimes blunt and straight to the point is needed to. I go both ways many have not seen the more light hearted side of me here as to I hate writing things out only because I am extremely busy in my personal life.
        I am curious as to why you say HG can not be his true self here due to the 5 rules? Because he can’t show his “darker” side?

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      17. I am happy to hear you are moving forward. I would like to read more about your gifts. By not being his ‘true self’ I actually mean Mr. Tudor Tudor cannot put on his ‘charm’ facade and show us how he truly captivates women in real life. I would hope he is more charismatic and alluring in his personal life than what he displays here. I should have said mask instead of true self.

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      18. Hello Love
        I am sorry you made me step back as far as saying you’d like to read about my gifts. It has been a while sense I have been triggered in the way I was. He knew the extent of what I could do, he knew what I was and “tested” me, looking back I see it for what it really was. In the end he used this knowledge in a malicious way.
        It may help me to write about them, I need sometime thou to think about this.

        I have no doubt in person HG can turn up his charm if this is to provide the outcome that is desired. My impression thou, this is not to be used as a hunting ground due to the masses of Empaths here. It would counter the desired outcome to be the number one provider of this information. This is my opinion.

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      19. Apologizes not necessary but appreciated. Your intentions were not to do this, you didn’t know.
        Lol, advance, you could say this, he was a greater.
        My first comment to him in person told him what I was.

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      20. Hello Twilight!
        I agree with you. HG’ s role as a “stand in ” here is quite clear. Although his ultimate aim is not perhaps that but still he helps many of us. And yes..it is a forum that gives us some validation!
        As you know I am quite new here so sometimes I do not understand some comments that seem to be out of context.

        It is good to know that you have got the help you needed!
        Regarding other bloggers who still persist it is hard to say why…we all have a life story that has made us who we are…But I have come to the conclusion that it is not of my concern..
        Sorry about your store and the mid-ranger. How have you handled it?
        And your development with your ex-greater?
        This weather in Stockholm is making me crazy..it is snowing now…when it is supposed to be Spring!!

        Wish you the best😀

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      21. Superxena

        Whatever HGs aim is the side effect of helping so many outweighs this, IMO.
        When I was notified of him being moved to my store I spoke with HG, in my personal life I would have handle it differently. Professionally this was unfamiliar advice was needed.
        I followed HGs advice.
        My ex I have been dealing with many messages. For a moment it was a lot to handle. He is way to late to really effect me now, it is more annoying if anything.

        Snow in spring, I would love some cooler weather as to it is a beautiful hot day.
        Hope the best for you!

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      22. Hello Twilight!

        Good to know that you have a nice hot sunny weather! The weather here will soon turn to be warmer! “After the storm comes the calm”

        I absolutely agree with you. The collateral effects of his work are very positive for many. He is reaching wider and wider😀 The site is very near the 3 million hits…at incredible speed!

        I am glad to hear that you got help from him at your professional area!
        Congratulations for having reached the point of not being affected by your ex! You are over the fence now!

        I have had several e-mail and audio consultations with HG…very helpful and effective! He is leading me over the fence…I am not quite there yet…but I will soon be!
        Wish you the best as well.

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      23. Super and Twilight, please know that I am embarrassed by my initial reaction and again I apologize to you Twilight. I should’ve paused and thought first. I am in such a reactive mode right now that I sometimes go to the wrong extreme and I know it’s grossly unattractive. What I should do is when a comment strikes me in the wrong way is ask for clarity. I’m working on that I promise.

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      24. Super, that’s not nice. I’ve been on this blog a while and we’ve all (well me) flirted obsessly with Mr. Tudor. It is done in good fun. ABB is a feisty foxy lady (btw loved that nickname the best).

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      25. Love, if you think it is allright ..that is up to you! I have my own opinions about this and of course the right to express them. If you feel allright by doing it…just go ahead..by all means!

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      26. I’m interested to know your opinion Super. I actually would like to understand your point of view. Please share.

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      27. Abrokenwing , Love

        I do apologise if my comment was offending or harsh. I assume that Annabells comments are just meant as a joke since HG allows them through! And with this :I drop the subject !

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      28. That’s a bit too harsh Superxena. You said no offence in the first post but what you have said in another is quite offensive I would say. My opinion. Sorry to say…

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      29. @ Superxena – Yeah , i guess it’s harmless and Mr.Tudor allows it. Although he stated few times in the past that they do not know each other and wouldn’t be in relationship anyway ABB doesn’t give up easily 🙂

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    3. I believe HG is looking for more of a challenge my dear. Someone along the lines of a mysterious psychologist… 😜

      Just saying…

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  8. You’ve described the last year of my life. A play thing taken off the shelf periodically and then put back. This time I think I’ve been put back for good. But that’s not the case is it?

    He tells me he wants to have another child with his wife.

    I only wonder how many other toys are on his shelf. I know the ex is. The “psycho”
    ex he almost left his wife for (oh he almost lost his mind he says! what was he thinking?) but abolished all contact with. Later on though…oh we still check in from time to time! Yet he’s always back with the wife.

    Do some of them remain with the same IPPS and just periodically play with their toys on the shelf from time to time, never finding a replacement IPPS but still going back to all the other toys?

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      1. Makes sense. He often stated, “I will never leave my wife. Ever. I would die first.” and yet he told me that I was “new and lovely” and he just could not help himself when it came to me.

        I am starting to wonder if the whole story of “I almost left my wife for (ex’s name here) but I came to my senses” was ever really true. It was likely a cover story to get sympathy. His stories changed so much from “we ceased all contact” to “we still keep in touch because I owe her”. For someone who does what he wants and has no morals he sure seems awfully hell bent on not losing the wife. Or is that a way to garner sympathy from me as well? That he continually “tries to do the right thing” (another thing he often said to me)…..always such a great guy trying to do the right thing but always failing. All for sympathy I presume.

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  9. Been there, done that. Not with the tHiNg but with someone else. Sooo many red flags with him. But this, I called the ‘push me pull me’ game. I told him so too. Also said I felt ‘discarded’ by him on occasion. God Im glad I didnt fall for it. Took 3 months though before I had enough ‘cluster’ red flags, to give him the boot!! Geez, the things Ive learned since then about him are mind blowing!! Bullet missed!!!

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    1. Push me pull me thing is a borderline thing. Do narcs do it too? I know borderlines can be more or less toward the narcissistic side, but even a more empathic borderline will push and pull because they don’t think they’re worthy of being loved or having good things in life.

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      1. AG. There was nothing empathetic about this guy. Nothing real anyway. As fake as they come. Was just setting me up to be IPSS, while looking openly for IPPS. If Id fallen for his ‘web of deceit’ he would have loved that, but discard would have happened very quickly. My gut instinct was right pretty much from day one. It just took awhile to have the confidencd in myself to KNOW what I KNEW, if you know what I mean.

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  10. “You hear of us doing things with family but you may not be invited to join in. Certain social occasions are excluded from you also. You feel close to us because of the way we make you feel when we are with you but at the same time there feels like a gulf between us because we are not admitting you entirely into our lives. ”

    Another excellent article! Thank you so much, HG. You work really hard. I like this “Errors of the Ignorant” series very much. I really appreciate your insights. I used to be The Sibling with Benefits. It used to be exactly what you described here. I felt like I was *Permanently In Waiting*.

    Depriving the narcissists of my residual benefits and watching them crumble in those areas I used to help them is the best revenge.

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  11. This is absolutely the dynamic with JN. It truly was purgatory holding the title for Permanently Waiting. I could go back to August 2015 and follow all of my comments like a diary recording all of his actions and Hoovers (that you predicted) and it would serve up as a perfect example to this article. Even with having a therapist for a year reassuring that yes, I was hearing from JN because he connected with me and cared about me.
    HG, will you ever write an article about an IPSS or DS that you had this dynamic with?

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  12. HG, I’ve been IPSS for almost two years. How do I get the promotion? I feel as if I produce the highest and purest petrol. I am 10 years younger than IPPS, thinner, much more attractive, have a better job, I am better educated, funnier, and give him genuine positive attention and admiration. I am not needy and don’t interfere with his time. IPPS is passive and maternal. 10 years his senior. He says she doesn’t give him enough attention as she is very involved with kids and grand kids. I suspect she is the one meeting the financial obligations and he plays with his own income. He has a teen daughter (from previous relationship) that is stable, about to graduate. I can’t think of what else I can do.
    Please don’t judge me people. I know many of you are in the same position.

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    1. I understand your stance and have witnessed it many times. You can only continue doing what you do and if he decides to promote you, he will do so. It is entirely down to him. You can of course reduce your chances by failing to live up to what he wants and therefore it is a thankless task you are embarking on. It is he who wields the power.

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    2. Lexi, I make no judgement on your situation. My question is how long will you keep trying and competing? What if you eventually become the PS, and 5 years later, a younger version of you shows up? What happens to all the hard work you put in? Years and years of blood, sweat, and tears flushed down the toilet for a shiny new toy.
      The reason I ask is because as Mr. Tudor said it is a thankless task. A 24 hour job with 0 pay and 0 appreciation. I hope he is a God amongst men, if you’re truly invested in this journey.

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      1. Love- thank you for your last comment. I needed to be reminded of this.

        Lexi- I appreciate your honesty. It’s hard to admit to still wanting them. After knowing what they are, and what that must mean.

        I had over 30 days no contact this time and just broke it in what I felt was a one time self protected way, but within 4 days I was in so much discomfort and fear of abandonment that I was practically begging him to respond to a text- something, anything. And when he did, a rush of calm came over me. It literally didn’t matter what the message said. That’s how intense the hold he has on me and he knows exactly how to work me and get me back into that position of surrender to him. I’ve tried so many times to go no contact and this keeps happening and I just feel like giving up and stop fighting it. Without him life is grey, with him is color but crazy like a Dali painting. I am now reading Chained because that is exactly how I feel again.

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      2. EscapeArtista: How are you doing now? Do you still feel chained to him? Or do have you gone no contact again? Your post really resonated with how I felt about my online narc. Hell, he might be the same guy! “within 4 days I was in so much discomfort and fear of abandonment that I was practically begging him to respond to a text- something, anything. And when he did, a rush of calm came over me. It literally didn’t matter what the message said. That’s how intense the hold he has on me and he knows exactly how to work me and get me back into that position of surrender to him.” All of this I could have written myself about how intense the pull was to him. And also what you said about life without him being gray, but with him it’s color. Fucked up, but at least some color!

        I went No Contact (without saying goodbye) over two months ago! And at moments I am repulsed that I ever let him into my life, and then at other times, I just miss the COLOR. I would check my phone every day and my feeling for the day depended on hearing from him and how attentive he was. My stomach was in knots all the time. I was constantly in the bathroom at work with diarrhea (sorry if that’s TMI) and I felt so lovesick for him. I hated him for making me feel this way, but I didn’t want to let go. I wanted color. (I am married so this is a person I had an online fling with, and I know it’s wrong and not fair to my husband, but his porn addition isn’t fair to me so I’m going to call it a wash.) Sometimes I’m glad I walked away from the online guy, and am relieved not to have the knot twisting in my guts all the time. At other times, I miss it so much. Sometimes I listen to songs that remind me of him just to try and get the color back. It usually just brings the upset stomach though.

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      3. Hi Mary, I have been in contact with him but I think things are probably worse between us than they have ever been because before the last no contact I knew I was was going to end it “forever” so I let loose and said a bunch of things I normally wouldn’t, accusations and things like that. Now when we argue he feels justified to call me different versions of the word “crazy.” Which I hate. And he also now says the reason we can’t be together is bc I accuse him of ‘everything under the sun’ which is hilarious because that only just happened a few months ago and he’s been making excuses for 2 years.

        So after the Hoover where he told me he has always cared about me and I am beautiful and he really thinks we should spend more time together, we had one nice visit and for the first time our kids met, he has a son and I have a daughter both age 5. Almost immediately after that he distanced from me again and when I text him he was short with me and complaining about an app I got him to join. Right after we just had a great time together with our kids! Just stupid. A few blowout arguments over text followed. Then I had a health scare and he was nice for a minute. And now since my results came back yesterday that the results are benign, I sent him a message bc he asked me to let him know… and he has not even responded to that message after 12 hours. But I saw that he did just use the app I told him about that he was so mad at me for getting him to join. So go figure. That’s a narcissist for you. Now that I’m in it again it doesn’t feel like color. It feels like I don’t have a life of my own and so I want in on his. It feels like I don’t love myself enough to expect to be treated better. It feels like fantasizing about a relationship that does not actually exist. It feels like crumbs and unworthiness again. I want to be over this so badly. I know no contact is the way everyone says, but I get weak and fall back into it every time. And I let him convince me this time that I am rude and irrational and he is so wonderful to put up with my craziness for so long. And then I think about it and I’m like he’s not even a friend to me. A friend would respond with relief when you send them your negative test results after a cancer scare. And I would never let a friend treat me like this. He doesn’t care about me and I don’t know when I will get that through my head for good.

        Mary, you are doing the right thing. With your husband, unless he’s also a narc, it can get better. There are resources that can help you understand his porn addiction and might relieve some of your understandable feelings of pain, rejection, and betrayal around that. Not that I should be giving relationship advice by any means. But I am familiar with these types of addictions so I know there is help out there for it. It’s very common actually so you should be able to find a lot of support.

        I am currently gathering up the courage to try to go no contact again. Thank you for your message, it’s a good reminder of a lot of things I’ve been pretending aren’t real, like his incurable narcissistic personality disorder.

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  13. Good luck to the aware in attempting to discuss and get the abused to see and understand the devaluation happening to them. I have found in attempting this myself that it is near impossible to get across what they are actually experiencing. No matter how clear it is and how well you explain it.

    Generally people don’t listen to nor do they heed advice (even when they come to you and ask for it) when it comes to their “love life.” And when it comes to being involved with a narcissist there’s an addiction factor, so it’s extra difficult to think logically.

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    1. You are correct Aura, there are those who do not listen, there are those who are actually seeking affirmation of what they want to hear, but there are plenty who do listen and apply it too – I see them everyday on this blog and in my consultations.

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    2. Aura Gael

      I completely agree with you 100%. In those instances the best possible thing anyone can do for someone they care about is direct them to HG Tudor in all formats.

      If we want to help someone in this awful situation or similar, then, as dramatic as it sounds, “nobody does it better,” than HG. No one tells it like it is like he does.

      So…forward links to them etc and tell them you know who can help them find their answers…

      .. the rest is up to them, and you will know you have provided them with the best possible advice that you could and that they can get.

      You will have done a really good thing for them leading them to water…then it is up to them to drink.. become free; seeing this darkness, all the misery ahead, they will be better able to find their way forward..find their way OUT.

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  14. I am not breaking no contact.
    No matter what hurricane of ghosts he’s sending over me.
    I am allowing myself to feel what I feel , because there is knowledge in it. That’s me and my emotions. It’s not ‘us’ it never was.
    When the wind subsides, there is nothing left. It’s a waste land….

    April is the cruellest month, breeding
    lilacs out of the dead land, mixing
    memory and desire, stirring
    dull roots with spring rain…

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    1. Giulia

      That is real fighting talk straight from your heart. Remember how this determination today feels.
      It is sometimes breached and it is a good idea to “read” things again later that you yourself have written if you have a wobbly day.. Thats what I do. And it has impact because when you have a weaker day you can see that the strength really is in you…not because someone else tells you that you “can do” this no contact thing, but because you told yourself..because it is already possible in your own strength.

      Your words are poetic..sad and pretty..I totally know what you mean about April..
      I have a memorium in April and it is painful.

      Seeing tiny flowers begin to grow..new life budding…
      the promise of new life..the new season and all the while knowing that there are things that are dying or dead and gone, on many different fronts.

      I remember seeing the tiniest flowers growing in a pot after my lovely mother died many years ago..she had planted them.
      I thought how are they alive..and she is not?
      Little flowers.
      Crazy thought..obviously life goes on..it is hard to explain what I mean.

      Its how can someone or something..i.e. even a relationship ..be so alive, so tangible and then cease to exist.

      And regarding narcissists..
      These fake relationships are a death of sorts. Full of grief and pain..
      the neverending ending in that scenario.

      We dont know our own strength sometimes when the pain and confusion is all around..and we are left standing in the ‘wasteland’.
      But we still have it.

      Even when it is at it’s darkest, there is still that one seed ..the empathic seed and other good seeds.. HG is right about the fact that we cannot dull our empathy or true decency for long.

      Those seeds ..the essence of a lovely person simply cannot fail to grow once more. Again and again we grow back.

      No matter what the narcissist does…
      It isn’t just in the Springtime that the good and lovely hearts repair..no, it is always.

      The narcissistic victory is shortlived in the final analysis.

      All of you believe on this.
      Keep believing.
      And remember you are still the wonderful you that you always were, and are, and always will be.
      And this is ‘our’ final analysis:
      No defeat..no end to us.
      New beginnings always…
      New life ahead…
      be it April or October.

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  15. @abrokenwing!
    Ha..ha this is getting to be like a soap opera😉 I wonder who is “pulling the strings now”😉.???
    Yes…I think HG enjoys being chased by Annabelle and he is enjoying our comments! Best wishes😀

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  16. Before I found HG Tudor’s blog, I tried to go no contact many many times. For over a year trying to stay away, knowing he was not good for me, but kept getting drawn back into the cycle. Now I have a narrative by which to understand what has been happening for the last 2 years and it has made no contact much easier this time. It’s still hard and there are still times when I catch myself going back into the fantasy or telling myself it wasn’t really that bad or that I could control myself better this time but I quickly remember what he is (a Mid-range Elite) and what I am (a shelf IPSS.) Articles such as this one that really get to the heart of that experience I find very comforting. This article especially reminded me of a short poem I wrote about 4 days into No Contact before I found this blog. Before I had the language to understand and I was desperately trying to make sense of it myself.

    Loving him
    was like trying
    to have an important conversation
    through a chain-locked door.
    Cracked just enough
    to see a sliver of his life
    Strange how he would
    reach through that crack
    and just hold me there
    Holding on for dear life at times
    it seemed
    Yet never simply slide the chain
    and welcome me in
    Strange how he had
    no choice in this
    it seemed
    Strange how long I held on

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  17. What about those who are ok with relationship cupcakes be full on cakes? The idealists who are equal proportions of Geyser (short term, ex: weekend), Magnet (early on, when in a good place in life and not overly stressed out), Carrier (long term ex: 6-8+ months & when things need to get done, of course we will be honoured in being the sacrificial lamb just don’t cry k?) as dictated by life circumstances they find themselves in, and as such, really are ok without cake for awhile if not indefinitely… How are these more independent supply sources viewed – as a feisty challenge or not enough quantity? Just curious how Ns react to a woman’s relationship independence – it seems to me in my own experiences that whatever we are ok with naturally you must counter it in some way for neg supply – so if she doesn’t want to get overly involved will he be a cling-on puppy (above and beyond normal honeymoon phases normals go through) and if she decides to settle down and want security everything will be done to pretend that’s what she’s getting she obstructing and undermining all the while? What if she never wants to be an IPPS, like those who are together but live apart, and relishes the times of idealised weekends together forever? Or maybe those who are polygamous for example… Can an N have 2+ IPPS?
    I’m really curious how that would all play out…

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  18. @12345
    I am glad you cleared up all misunderstandings with Twilight. We are all in some way triggered by comments and posts here.Which I think is part of the moving on,healing process. It is good to look back and read the comments and you can propably laugh at all this confusion.😀

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    1. 12345
      Please do not feel embarrassed, I am happy you reached out to me to clear up the misunderstanding. I was smh at myself for jumping before making sure and reading through the thread first.
      Misunderstanding and misinterpretation can start something that was never intentional.
      I do hope whatever it is that is causing you to react comes to a stop and you find peace.

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  19. Hi everyone. Maybe someone could answer me. I’m dealing with the greater narcissist. I was discarded 3 months ago. After 3 weeks i got a hoover over text when i was in his town, which i ignored. However, after a couple of weeks i messaged him (wasn’t sure if he was a narcissist then) to ask how he is doing in his new job. He was very friendly, even asked about me. He was trying to get reactions from me by texting after no response, not responding for a long time while clearly being online or to continue talking after i told i must go, i paid no attention to it. I replied only every 12 hours or so. It lasted for 3 days. He sent his photo to me and then said good night. Since then, its silence. I’m not blocked or anything on social media. Last month i woke up to find he has liked my comments which i wrote a couple of days ago under not interesting topic. He wasn’t in that group until then, i don’t know how he found these comments. Now its silence. Should i expect he will hoover again or you think he is done with me?

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    1. Hi Green,
      He will hoover you again. Implementing No Contact with him *and* maintaining it are your best weapons. The latter is not easy but the books “Black Hole” and “No Contact” will help you achieve this.
      Good luck!

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    2. Hello Green!
      I am not an expert but I have learned a lot here. Have you considered to have a consultation with HG? I highly recommend it. He can answer to your question more precisely and with great expertise.
      I am just curious about some things you wrote and would like to ask you the following?
      1. How do you know he is a Greater?
      2. Were you a IPPS or a IPSS?
      3 . If you were discarde, why havn’t YOU blocked him on your social media?
      4. What are YOU expecting from the relationship with him?
      5. Why haven’t you gone No Contact?

      A s I said ,it would be very helpful to you if you consider a private consultaion with HG ( via mail or audio consultation). He is the one that can answer you with detail and unique knowledge.It was of great help to me!

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  20. Please forgive my ignorance. Case study? Does this refer to someone who followed or follows HG? I know this question will make me as popular as 1MM ants on a kitchen floor, but who are we to determine who is a case study?

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    1. 1jaded1- please see ‘A Very Potus Narcissist ‘ thread and comments exchange between Superxena and Vashti. Case study in this context as someone who provides others with lots of study material for this blog. Hope it helped.

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