Dirty Little Secret


Sometimes it is not all Relationship Bulletins, declarations to the world about you and me or announcements across the fabric of social media about our perfect love. Sometimes you are the dirty little secret.

This is never the title afforded to the primary source that we have chosen. It is those who are  secondary sources who find themselves labelled in this way.

Do you have a friend who makes demands of your time, often calls you and ensures that you give up your time so he or she is able to tell you all about what they have been doing, obtain your advice and uses you as a sounding board? Does this person tell you all about the brilliant weekend or she has just had with a group of other friends at some weekend away or at a concert but somehow no invitation came your way? Do you perhaps politely and subtly ask whether you can attend some forthcoming event which this friend is enthusiastically telling you about, maybe even gloating about how brilliant it will be, but this friend shows all of the perception of a plank of wood and never picks up on your hints? Even if they do or perhaps if you are more forceful as you ask whether you can attend or you point out how you never get invited along, are you met with comments such as:-

“Yes, I know you would have loved to have come but I didn’t organise it, John did and it is his fault he didn’t ask you.”

“I didn’t think it was your kind of thing.”

“There was only a few places available but I will make sure you can come to the next one.”(Of course this never transpires)

“I thought you hated rock music. I am sure you told me that you did.”

“I have been so busy I must have forgotten to ask you.”

“I did ask you and you said no.Dont you remember?”

(Of course this is a lie.)

These people are our inner circle. The select few who are our guardians of our reputations, loyal lieutenants and brainwashed and indoctrinated to fawn over us, carry out our demands and provide us with fuel and you are not in the inner circle.

In fact, the inner circle does not ever know about you. When we spend time with you, we string you along with future-faking, we allow you to bask in our greatness and at first it feels good to have such an interesting, charismatic and seemingly attentive friend. You may attract the label of friend and you sit in the outer circle but you are a dirty secret secondary source. We do not want our inner circle to know about you because whilst you serve an excellent purpose in providing us with fuel, your enthusiasm when we tell you with a moment’s notice that we are coming to visit is just the tip of the fuel berg. We know you are loyal, dependable and faithful. We know you will provide us with the fuel that we need and you above everybody else will be the go to person when fuel stocks are running low. Whether it is 3am call or an appearance on a wet and windy Monday evening in winter, you always welcome us in, always take the call and you always oblige. We do make you feel special, trotting out the easy to mouth platitudes about how much we like being with you, how we enjoy your company, how it is good to know that we can depend on you but this is just to keep you sweet and functioning. The reality is we do not want other people knowing about you because you do not fit with our idea of how our life looks. You might not be as good looking as we would prefer, you might not shine in a group, or you are apt to saying unusual things which we feel would make us look less impressive in front of our all important facade. No, you are kept in the background, used but rarely abused because you are the long-serving indentured servant of the narcissist. The loyal hound that sits in the corner of the kitchen, always ready to wag your tail for us but too old and unappealing to be paraded at the show. This is the role of a dirty secret secondary source.

There is also the Dirty Secret Intimate Partner  Secondary Source (“DSIPSS”). You were seduced and made into a secondary source and within the blind of an eye you were bedded and the platitudes of love and dedication came pouring forth in order to secure your loyalty. There are those who are earmarked for promotion to primary source, they are destined for better things so long as they come up to proof with regard to the provision of fuel, character traits and residual benefits. Those who are on the fast-track to being installed as the primary source can expect to meet our children, meet our families and our friends, be paraded and attend certain events with us, all at the humiliating cost to the currently devalued primary source who is on their way out, all being well with the seduction of this Intimate Partner Secondary Source. The future is rosy for this person.

The DSIPSS , at the outset, is never considered for promotion. Words may be whispered to that effect but they are just false promises, more future faking and the crumbs of comfort which are scattered to stop you foraging elsewhere. When we allocate you the role of dirty secret next to nobody knows about you.

Whereas the IPSS who is in waiting for the top role may find themselves being picked up and put down, with intervals of silence in between the weekend hook-ups, as we test that person to gauge their suitability for promotion, it is a different story for the dirty secret.

The dirty secret actually may well see quite a lot of us. in the backs of cars, in seedy motel rooms, in the back of the warehouse, the disabled toilet, the alley behind the house and such like. You are never to be seen by our family, our friends or even our colleagues. You remain hidden because your presence will offend our facade. We are the dedicated family man and thus we cannot be seen hanging out the back of you down some leafy lane at dusk. We are the champion of morals in our local community and it would not be the done thing for us to be know to be engaging in the debauchery that we insist on when we are with you. The primary source may well be devalued but we do not want them to be sullied by the knowledge of the filthy whore that have twice a week. You are a pit stop for a delicious injection of fuel. That snatched two drinks in an out of town bar where you had to sit and wait for two hours before we showed up? You are a dirty secret. Never allowed to call or message us before we have contacted you first? You are a dirty secret. Never allowed to meet our friends? You are a dirty secret. We wish to portray an image and you do not fit with that image but you are a potent bundle of fuel, dedicated and desperate, always hanging on for that stolen hour in bed together, the occasional afternoon when we pretend to work to have a meeting in the next state or county. You live for those moments because in that instant we make you feel wonderful, we focus on you, we give you the best sex, the excitement and the promises, oh the promises of what could be yours.

The future faking with an IPSS is born out of being torn between not wanting to lose a good source of fuel and the potential this IPSS has to perhaps become a primary source at some juncture. We do not want to lose that, thus we keep the IPSS hanging on as I described in the article ‘What Am I To Him?’ It is a different set-up for the DSIPSS. You were not initially selected for potential promotion. You were selected because you are a dependable, reliable turbo-boost of fuel and when we demand it, you always provide it. Why would we ever let that go? We would not.

Like the friend who is the dirty little secret above, you are the same but with you comes the intimacy. you are the recipient of our oft-spewed sugary charms and in receipt of our desire to use you for sex and the provision of fuel. We rarely take you anywhere, for fear of detection and our engagements are covert, hurried and secretive, yet this adds to our charm, our mystery and you find it as addictive as we do. It is only when we are going and you wonder what we are doing and who with, that you are left to rue the emptiness and the loneliness. You want to provide us with what you think we need, to allow your goodness to shine for us, but we will never let you do so, not outside of those hotel walls where we meet every Thursday evening.

Unfortunately for you, you do not fit in with the image we wish to convey to the world. You do not fit with what we wish to show. If we ever saw you, by chance, when we are out with our facade, be that family, friends or colleagues, we would ignore you and pretend we did not know you. Of course, later that day we would lay on the charm to excuse our behaviour because we do not want to let you go either. You are a brilliant stick on emergency fuel patch. You provide fuel and you remain hanging on, waiting for the day that you hopefully emerge blinking into the light of the golden period for the primary source.

That is never going to happen directly and at the outset of your allocation to this role.  Not that we will admit it to you.

Stay in that dark corner and wait for our call.

You are a dirty little secret.


127 thoughts on “Dirty Little Secret

  1. Morning sun says:

    Thank you HG for providing us with your perspective. It is a highly interesting read, though at times also nauseating when I recognise similarities to my latest love interest. Still, I appreciate intelligence in all forms and I’ve always been interested in the Other to my overly empathic self. I have some narcissistic traits too, which is of course why I fell for the narcissist’s IGH in the first place – “we are special, you are my soul mate, I have always known my soul mate was out there and now I have found her, you can never take that knowledge away from me, you and I are different from the rest of the world, i know who you are even if you do
    not know it yadda yadda” (ever presence I suppose).

    I was the DLS in the relationship, with a limited IPPS role in the BDSM community – within the community, we were openly a couple and – at least on the face of it in a mono-D/s relationship.

    I estimate him to be a higher mid-level as I don’t think he’s aware of what he is (I could be wrong of course, but I get the sense that he’s really bought into the façade he’s constructed). He also fits the older mid-range to a T (he’s embedded himself in his local community, is respected and well-liked, is the one people turn to for help, advice, guidance…).

    Interestingly, he never future-faked. He initially did not want to come out and say I would never be his IPPS, saying to just let myself enjoy the moment and see where the future leads us. He talked a lot about how being unfaithful to his wife is “kind” to her because she’s not into sex much anymore and she’s not into BDSM at all, so why should he trouble her with it? It was a nice way of ensuring I would be empathic and help him maintain his façade.

    Triangulation also occurred very rarely and when it did, it was mostly women from the past who (he said) he no longer had contact with. Also, there was never a tangible, malicious devaluation taking place. He did, however, withold affection, sex and certain kinky acts he knew I craved, intimacy, contact etc., doing the Stranger manouver you write about.

    In this way, I have been steadily, gradually devalued over the last two and a half years and I’m pretty conviced that he honestly feels I’m not living up to my “true self”, which is his mirror image. (HA, he even used the phrase “mirror souls”). When he went almost NC on me, I’d had enough and asked him to not contact me again until he had more time for me (supposedly he had to work SOOO hard).

    He (magnanimously) abided by that for a while, it must have suited him and I asked in a really nice manner, expressing my love for him, teling him I’m still his and always will be, that I wish to keep our relationship alive and I fear I cannot do this unless I take some time to get myself into a better place mentally and emotionally (I only recently started treating my depression, to which of course he greatly contributed)…

    Anyway, about a month later he contacts me, we meet and he gets some negative fuel from me (I open up to him again about how his ations made me feel), but he also gets criticism (I’m lukewarm in my reactions except for the one brief emotional purge which he doesn’t seem to enjoy – it’s a criticism on him of course because he “takes care of everyone and he’s so wonderful” and I can’t help myself giving off derogatory body language as a visceral response to some of his statements).

    Honestly, I’m rather disappointed in him, as if he failed to live up to MY standards, in either way – as prince charming or machiavellian lord and master. It’s so hard to see him as a person… I used to feel so much for him and be so full of thoughts of him and there’s just nothing there. The effect is strange and alienating.

    It could be a defense mechanism allowing me to survive possible disintegration of my self, or it could be that I’m seeing things for what they were – just as I was a construct to him, he was to me. I poured all my emotional energy into something that wasn’t real… it’s like having been completely engrossed in a book, the aesthetic illusion in full force, and then the book is over or starts to be unappealing and you return blinking to the real world. And the character you cared so much about and who instilled so many emotions in you is now just gone, poof, a lingering afterimage pehaps, but certainly not a person.

    Anyway, I for one am quite happy to have had this experience with a narcissist. I will have to pay the price of course, but the best schools always have the highest tuition. I also gladly accept his ever presence in the form of special objects etc. – I don’t want to forget this lesson and have to stumble through another one. I always want to maintain the awareness of having eperienced the greatest love possible that can never be outdone – and how worthless it really is to be LOVED by another unless their actions match their words/feelings. Feelings are private and intimate… I don’t think they can be shared, but we can create the illusion of course and by expressing them we might be able to effect a change in another person’s feelings – but it’s the interaction that matters, not how the other person feels about us.

    What good is it to me is he luuuurves me to pieces, but doesn’t hold me or caress me or spend time with me? What do I get from the illusion of
    being loved that I’m not working on getting from actually being loved? I have an answer – it’s easier. It’s more fun. It’s exciting and it makes us feel alive and important and special. We become the hero/heroine of our own life story.

    Which is only ever really achieved, I think, by the narcissist (at least the greater ones) – as they are the writer of their own life story whereas most of us are merely readers.

  2. RS says:

    WS2: HG, would it be a problem if she didn’t love the narc and was just using him for sex? Would he see that as criticism?

    That was my plan when I texted him after an 11 month no contact. I just didn’t feel it for him anymore and I told him so. I said we had outgrown each other. He said he felt we had run the course also but I hope he was wounded a little.

  3. TZ,

    You are so erudite with such few words!! I love it!! Sometimes I just want a break from feeling anything, but I don’t know as to how I’d go that far!

    Going camping in the desert next week, just to enjoy the silence.

    Well, really the hot springs and the silence. ; )

  4. Tappan Zee says:

    I wish I was a fucking narc so I felt nothing. <– That :/

    Except for all the shitty stuff.

  5. IJ says:

    GBean – So sorry for your pain. Keep fighting. I wish I could fast fwd about 3 mo’s for you when the pain will dull some. But don’t ever forget and do your best to absorb the lessons here. I put up my wall and went NC in late July and it’s a nightly struggle not to contact him but I know there is no point. I keep these lyrics in my head when the wall feels flimsy and I get tempted. Be good to yourself. Get a massage and don’t stay in and isolated. Get out with some friends and laugh! 💕https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/samsmith/toogoodatgoodbyes.html

  6. Caroline says:

    Huge hug of strength… ugh, I am so very sorry you have been hurt. Your graciousness while in pain and your great insight will absolutely help others. I have not been on the site long, but I have seen some of your previous posts, and this post of yours seems different, like you are getting toward your Big Truth. For real. And as for strength…the greatest strength is often achieved after falling down hard (hope that doesn’t sound like some saying on a poster with kittens on it, as I know you’re just feeling super sucky right now).

    Be gentle with yourself. Please don’t beat yourself up – you’re on a journey, like everyone — and just doing the best you can.

    XO… hurting for you, but also lifting you up! Each day you will get a little stronger. Hang in there, sweetie.

  7. Insatiable Learner says:

    Dear GZB, I have been wondering about you too. I was very concerned. Thank you for the update. I am so sorry you are going through this pain again. It is all too familiar. Don’t beat yourself up. You fell off the wagon but acknowledged you are still vulnerable. This takes courage. As you know, it may take several rounds but you will eventually get to the point where you will be able to pull away for good when you are ready. Be patient with yourself. Be kind to yourself. This is not a failure. It is another step in the direction of your ultimate healing. Sending support, care, love, and encouragement your way. Hugs

  8. K says:

    You mentioned that a DLS could be downgraded intimate secondary source that the narc has decided is not good enough for promotion. However, do DLSs ever get upgraded due to some change in whatever characteristic is important to the narc in question, which I guess would vary from Marc to narc, but for example, if they suddenly became a hell of a lot more attractive (like lost weight or… I don’t know somehow improved their looks in another way) or became wealthier, or attained a prestigious postition in their work or social life, or got a PhD, converted to the right religion.., etc.?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      An promotion could occur. It is more likely as a consequence of a shift within the fuel matrix than necessarily a change about the victim, but that could also be a contributing factor.

      1. K says:

        Thank you for your reply. When you say the whole matrix? Do you mean whatever is going on in the narcissist’s life too?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          That is correct.

      2. Tappan Zee says:

        I was a DLS promoted to IPPS. If you could call it a promotion. Weird but the 2nd I was I could feel the earth move. Shift. I was then almost immediately put into spin cycle of devalue and I knew it. Without knowing it. In a flash I saw: THIS was his life with his wife. I have never stopped bleeding for her. And I didn’t see it until I became her. He threw me against the wall (he says I flung myself) into the door and I fell into a heap. Crying and crying. He looked down and said: I will give you something to cry about. I asked if he did that to his wife. That put him over the edge (more.) It was pouring rain. I walked and walked out side. Came home and went to bed. That never happened. And it was within 30 minutes of being home after final divorce mediation. I felt lower than dirt. Petrified. Horrified. And devastated. Got up and went to work the next day. This deal is so hard. I hate the truth. It hurts to live in this wound and try to heal all at once. Bizarro world doesn’t begin to cover it. I feel like a burn victim and all the salve in the world won’t help…

  9. Jenna says:

    Speaking of dls, has anyone heard of gabbanzobean? I am wondering how her date w mr. Piano recital went.

    1. Windstorm2 says:

      I’ve been worried about her, too. I hope she connects up with us soon. Still worried about Clarece, also. I keep telling myself that there are good reasons a person could drop off the blog, too.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        You have no need to be concerned about Clarece.

        1. Windstorm2 says:

          Thank you, HG. Hearing that from you does help. Probably she’s like I imagine Indy to be – not needing to talk here right now and moving on with her life.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            No problem.

      2. ava101 says:

        There are 100 different reasons, hopefully in general that there is no need anymore to focus on narcissism anymore, but on one’s own life.

        1. Jenna says:


          Does it wound u if someone who has been a regular contributor leaves the blog? Or have they become stale so u don’t really care?

          I know u don’t allow ur feelings of staleness etc. to manifest here on the blog. I know we are tertiary and remote sources, but for the blog do u care?

          Or do u like rapid turnover in high volume contributors for freshness. In other words, do u like new shiny tertiary remote appliances on the blog? Ty.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            No it doesn’t wound me. They do not become stale because they do not provide sufficient fuel for that to happen.
            I prefer for people to remain and for new people to join and remain, to contribute to the blog’s growing reputation and success.

          2. Jenna says:

            Ty hg.

    2. ANK says:

      I was wondering too Jenna.

      May be her post is in moderation….

      1. Jenna says:

        Hi ank and windstorm,

        Regarding gabs, I thought maybe someone has read an update in a recent article’s comments section because i am not up to date on articles. But frm ur answers, i guess she has not updated us yet.

        When i used to get v depressed, i was unable to comment on the blog, but would read an article here and there. I hope that hasn’t happened to her after her date w piano jerk.

        And dear clarece, she is missed so much.

        1. Windstorm2 says:

          That sounds very possible about Gabby. I can understand that, but that’s not how I react. This site is one of my depression remedies. I feel that reading and commenting with you all helps me stay grounded and in a healthy mental state – at least as healthy a mental state as I ever have! 😜

        2. ANK says:

          Hope not too. x

      2. gabbanzobean says:

        Windstorm, Jenna, ANK, Brokenwing and anyone else who is wondering about me….

        I originally wanted to wait until my body and brain could somewhat stabilize/normalize itself before I headed back here to post an update. My email notified me of new comments on some posts I had been subscribed to and I saw that a few of you were concerned about me. After reading your comments, I did not want to stay away and ignore your concerns. So here I am (for the moment) with an update:

        Yes I had my reunion with Mr. Piano Recital at Church. I hate to be so vague as I know you are all concerned and also likely curious. I will spare specifics and just say I am hating myself for being so stubborn and ridiculous in assuming the same pattern would not repeat itself. And also thinking I could be strong and resist temptation. 🙁

        Just think of me as a recovering drug addict who fell off the wagon again, got high out of her goddamn mind, only to come crashing down, now going through withdrawal and detoxing. Again. That is basically my summary.

        I appreciate the concern but I was stubborn and I am now paying the price again with a massive silent treatment that is like a knife in my chest, memories of physical sensations unlike anything I have ever felt while staring into black eyes. Black eyes that remained open while he kissed me. He did not force himself on me, I allowed it. I wanted it. I am disgusted but still in love with him. This is why I was not posting. I am making no goddamn sense.

        These fucking Narcs may have ruined our lives but I am thankful for this blog and how it has brought us all together in a way.

        And HG, you are our teacher. And I keep failing your class. So here I am again taking a seat in the back determined to turn my F into an A+ (I sure fucking hope so), and that is the UTTER truth. Utter used for emphasis.

        Love to all. Please send me strength right now, I need it. <3

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Hello GZB. Your honesty in explaining what has occurred is important. Not only will this assist you in realising where you are in terms of your progress, it has also enabled you to ascertain what you need to do. It also serves as a useful example to others to reinforce what I explain about the various vulnerabilities you remain exposed to and the largest one of all being your emotional thinking conning you into thinking you are more advanced in your progress/more resilient/more resistant than you actually are. You recognise you need more schooling ; that is further progress and you are in the best place to receive it.

        2. Windstorm2 says:

          Love you, care about you, be here for you, glad your back. When I get to Kansas tomorrow I’ll lite a 9 day candle and say a novena (9 days of prayer) for you to gain strength and energy from this experience.

          1. Gabbanzobean says:

            Thank you. I appreciate that. Right now my emotions are all over the place. Which is to be expected. Jealousy. Because I wish he was mine. Rage. I’d love to destroy him and tip off his wife about the steamy evening we had together. He claims he will “never leave her”. But I wonder what her breaking point would be for her to leave him. What would he do anyway? Fly here with money he doesn’t have and tell me off? Drive his jankitty car here? I am 860 miles away.
            And then there is the Desperation and loneliness. Staring at my phone just waiting for a text I will never get. Granted it’s only been a week of silence, which is still part of the usual average, but still.
            My emotions are all over the place. I wish I was a fucking narc so I felt nothing.

            I want to go to sleep and not wake up.

            My apologies in advance for the massive spelling and grammar errors as I am talk to text.

          2. Windstorm2 says:

            I understand how your emotions are all over everywhere right now. Later on when they’ve settled, look back over your last comment to me and think about it. If you really think about what you said about this man, I think you have your answer.

            He is a wishy-washy man with no money and a junker car, who uses you then ignores you, makes you desperate and lonely and is not and will never be faithful. A man that you know can never really love you or be there for you because he is a narcissist.

            Do you really want a man like that? If so, why? Just think about it.

          3. ANK says:

            Following on from my quick reply, don’t be hard on yourself for falling off the wagon and giving into him. I did exactly the same a couple of weeks of silence and then Narchole texting and coming to see me on my birthday. A couple of texts over the next few days and then nothing. But I resolved not to make contact. Him seeing me three weeks later at work prompted him to call. When he told me he had treated me like shit I agreed he had. He asked if we could meet for coffee and I said ok.

            I have been going for counselling and when I told my counsellor about his call and the questions I had for him and the need for answers both of us agreed that I would never get a truthful answer. She suggested when I met him for coffee that I should tell him how I was feeling. I did, and you know what, I feel so much better. He said he was sorry. Whether he meant it or not, who knows. But I said what I needed to and it has helped. The anxiety has reduced, at times I feel numb/neutral. Perhaps counselling might help you, or just telling him how you feel.

            You will feel love and hate for him at the same time, jealousy and wanting revenge for him tossing you aside after he got what he wanted. I’ve been there. It is so difficult to let go when you love so much. But little by little as Caroline says you will get closer to your truth, and acceptance that you mean little to him, painful as that is. There will come a day when you will weigh up the fact that even if there was a possibility that you were with him properly, there will be trust issues. Could you in all honesty accept him being with other women? You deserve more respect than he is giving you – you just need to realise you are worth that and so much more.

            Having said all that, I really do empathise with how you are feeling, and with your emotions being all over the place after your encounter. I hope you can work your way out of the mire – in your own time.

        3. ANK says:


          A quick reply for now just to say thinking of you. I feel your pain. Sending hugs ❤

        4. Jenna says:

          Hello Gabs,

          I can feel ur pain. I’ve been there. My eyes filled w tears when i read how much pain ur in.

          We are here for u. When u were not posting, i was afraid it might be because u r depressed. Because that’s what happens to me when i am extremely depressed.

          Mr. Piano jackass can go to hell. He did it again. Yes, u allowed it, but he knows u love him, and unless he can commit to u, he has no right to take advantage of ur vulnerability.

          U do not have to answer the following question if u r uncomfortable. I thought sex could not happen even if u were tempted, due to u being on ur periods when u had scheduled the date?

          I read a few of ur posts here so i am commenting on all of them.

          I know the feeling of wanting to sleep and never wake up. That’s what they do to us. It’s a horrible place to be, but even though it doesn’t seem like it now, it will get better. I used to panic and shake. Anti-anxiety medicine helps. Talk to ur doc and consider starting it if u r a candidate.

          Also, i had directed two of my narc’s niss’s to his online profiles. One of them was up for promotion to ipss. I did it so they would know the truth abt him. And i did it because i hated him at the time, and i wanted him to know how it feels to be depressed. (I regretted my 2nd intention later when he actually did become depressed but i digress). So, what i’m saying is DO IT. Tip off his wife. Email her w links of his online profiles. If u have pics of the two of u, email them to her. He will know not to mess w you again.

          U must do something. Don’t allow him to treat u like this. The only reason i am at peace w my narc now is due to the fact that he finally realized what he did to me was wrong. But he would never have realized it if he had not fallen into depression. And that depression was due to the exposure.

          Pls tip off his wife. U must do this. Don’t let him off easy.

      3. Twilight says:


        I am glad you are back, I am sorry you had to go through this again, take the time you need. It is an addiction and one that is very hard to say no to when right in front of you.
        Just remember you are still ahead and when you start to move forward again you will be wiser and stronger.

      4. narc affair says:

        (((Gabs)))….ty for the update. First off dont beat yourself up! What have you done that was so horrible?? Nothing but feel very deeply for someone who doesnt feel the same about you. You are working thru what you feel and its all part of the process. It can take up to 7 to 8 no contacts or disengagements before seeing that its a lost cause. It hurts being rejected and the narc cycle is a perpetual cycle of rejection and devalument. You fell off the wagon for a reason and that was to be closer to the truth and to help you let go of hope. Hope keeps you hanging on. This was an opportunity to be free and let go. Its validation that he is a lost cause. Theres nothing to build on. Hes married and hes a narcissist. There was never any possibility of anything substantial from day 1. You falling off the wagon wasnt a waste of time its part of the process youre going thru and can learn from. Many others have been in your shoes myself included. Be easy and kind on yourself ❤

      5. abrokenwing says:


        I’m so sorry you’re going through this..
        You have every reason to scream and kick so please be kind to yourself.
        You will turn this pain into power.
        Big hug ❤️

      6. Annie says:

        Dear Gbean,

        I am so so so sorry – believe me, I know exactly how you feel thanks to my own mid-range cerebral pussy narc. Be kind to yourself. Forgive yourself. And be empowered that you have a week of NC under your belt (NOT a week of the silent treatment). You are brave, not broken. You are powerful, not weak. Always remember, only you can and should make choices about your life. Don’t wait for someone else to decide what is going to happen to you. There is no fairy-tale ending, no ‘meant to be’ or destiny with the narc. Your future does not lie in those dead black eyes.

        Thinking of you and wishing you massive healing and peace.

    3. abrokenwing says:

      I’m also thinking of her since last Friday Jenna..
      Hopefully no news is good news.

      1. Tappan Zee says:

        GBean—it’s a pass fail class. of course that would be bad with our (and their) black and white thinking. we audit the class? idk. anyhow: AT LEAST YOU ARE HERE. HG IS RIGHT. SAFE. NO FLY ZONE FOR NARCS. we are constantly reminded we need to heed the warnings. some learn by watching. others by doing. you help me. by saying all that. it also helps to reinforce what HG says by seeing it lived out. the conning of ET. thinking we are (or should be) stronger. we are not. and that is ok. and why we are empaths. we are only beginning to learn how not to ben roadkill on the psychopath way of life. i feel your pain. that could be any of us. yes it is like heroin addicts like some one said.

    4. gabbanzobean says:

      To everyone who has chimed in with support or to ask follow up Q’s which I will try to encompass in one reply…thank you for your kind words and support. I was not posting because yes as was predicted I was very down in the dumps and depressed about all of this. While I knew I would likely not come back to disparaging “I told you so” remarks, I still felt foolish and stupid at what happened hence the reason why I stayed away from the blog. Then my email went crazy with comments from stuff I posted to back in August (I guess HG was catching up on moderated comments) so when I went to read the replies I noticed many of you were asking about me, which was surprising, I do appreciate the concern and caring. I originally was not going to reply for awhile but I did not want to worry anyone (yeah spoken like a true empathic person huh? Worrying about worrying others. LOL. Eye roll.)

      Anyway I am going to try to reply to all of you in one response, and if you have follow up questions I will reply later on. The ever popular issue of outing him… do I tell his wife or don’t I? I have had this debate a million times over the last 20 months of my entanglement. It comes and goes. Earlier today my brain was screaming to do it but now my brain has calmed itself and told me to leave the idea alone. What will it accomplish? He was exposed once before and she stayed. I only feel this way because of my jealousy of wanting him to be mine. I continue to crash and burn and see first hand how he treats me yet I go back for more always thinking it will be different. Part of me wants what she gets (the good, the bad and the ugly).

      I still feel like I need to know all she gets. I have these moments where I wish I was her. That is the level of proof I crave. Sickening right? I sound like a narc!!! (“I want to become you”) And that is the only time I want to destroy him….because of my jealousy. But I am better than that. I have to be. But it is maddening to me yet I still wish I was her. Does that make sense? My brain continues to be in some kind of a denial loop. That is my rage coupled with my jealousy. Do I want to destroy him? Sure. Will I? Nope. Because I am still stupidly in love with him and that seems to keep winning out. Ugh.

      Then there is the loneliness and desperation of the silence. Yes it has only been a week so far but the pain of being ignored is like a knife in my chest, yes wanting to sleep and not wake up. I reached an all time low over the last few days texting him, begging for him to acknowledge and talk to me. And….silence. I am sure he will eventually respond when he feels like it. (“I communicate with you if and when I choose”). But the fear, the fear that he won’t is what is killing me. My messaging has been positive and not fight picking or raunchy. Sure I could send something sexual or start a fight for what would likely be an immediate response but why bother? He sure has hell does not want positive messages of how much I miss him or me asking when he will talk to me since they get no response. But fight picking or anything sexual? Usually an immediate reply. He had all the positive fuel I could give last week and I guess he’s ignoring me and hoping for negative?

      When I found this blog back in March…him and I were no contact. At HIS request. Yes his! (One could say he made me feel like I was the Narc…..him effecting no contact on me…lol)…..He asked for indefinite space from me and cajoled me into it (If you really love me you will leave me alone, this is the best thing we can do, I want to be your friend but the sex needs to stop, we need a break). So I did, I backed off. For FIVE MONTHS. Then he hoovered me on his wedding anniversary! And our contact began again and then our little reunion 2 months later.

      And sure enough after our little rendezvous the same pattern commenced. Distancing, ignoring, silenting. After he had sex with me again last week he had the audacity to say to me….”I will have you know that during our 5 months of no contact (yes he actually used the term “no contact”…LOL)….I was not nearly as depressed or anxious or guilt ridden as I am now after having sex with you again. And now I have negated all of that and I feel like scum. We cannot do that ever again”. I lost count of the number of times he has said “we cannot do that ever again”. Made it sound like he was so weak and fell off the wagon. He had been teasing and acting naughty for WEEKS before our reunion telling me all the “stuff he wanted to do” to me. He knew what he was going to do and he did it! And I should have stood up to him and reminded him of that too! But I didn’t. And HE is guilt ridden and anxious? Hence the reason why he has to avoid me? For his own peace of mind? Really? All guilt and pity nonsense as an excuse to push me away (just as HG has always said). He actually said “I need to be dead to you”. Lather rinse repeat.

      To the person who said “mid range cerebral pussy narc” (sorry I cannot recall your screen name at the moment)….yup. Mine is one of the same. Yet no one else I have met shows the same intelligence or comes close to evoking the same emotions within me. It is so not fair.

      Anyway, I do not want this to become too long so I will wrap it up….thanks for listening if you got this far…Also Jenna… I do not mind answering your sex related questions. Yes I was slated to get my period during my reunion with him. As expected it showed up on time, the morning before I saw him. When I saw him I was upfront right away about it and he seemed put off by it. We talked and cuddled for 2 hours without anything happening (as compared to the usual 2 minutes before the clothes used to come off)…I was proud of myself for it holding off as long as it did. But yeah it eventually happened and he was not even phased by the ick factor either. He did comment that aside from his wife I was the only other person he’s had period sex with. Most likely a lie but whatever.

      I know it is all about fuel fuel fuel but the fact remains that he gets his fuel from sex….he is a total sex addict so if there is a chance he can get some he would probably take it even if it was icky. But yeah, it happened. Twice. And he pretty much did everything except go down on me (sorry to be TMI…which I would not expect anyway being in that state, lol)…but he had no qualms at all about the mess involved in general. And I enjoyed myself too, but now I pay the price. While I was intimate with him I wanted to keep my eyes closed but I had to see the black again, I needed proof again. I opened them for a single moment and saw the black. He had his eyes open while he kissed me. Who the hell kisses with their eyes open? Who does that?

      1. Windstorm2 says:

        Hope you don’t mind if I call you Gabby. One of my granddaughters is a Gabby, I call her Gabradoodle (I promise I won’t call you THAT!)

        Of course we missed you and were worried! You’re important to us (remember – crowd of empaths here!). Use us to talk thru how you feel.

        You say you really want to know what things are like for the wife. Big clue – he hoovered you on their wedding anniversary. If you’d been the wife, he’d have been hoovering someone else.

        I think if you canvassed all of us, we’d agree that he treats her worse than he treats his DLSs. If you were the wife, he’d treat you worse than he does now.

        I’d suggest writing a list of things down and using that list to compare over time. If you just depend on your memory, you will forget details.

        Thinking and praying and sending positive energy!

        1. gabbanzobean says:

          I do not mind that nickname. I have been called “Gabradoor Retriever” so no nickname phases me. And thank you for your kind words.

          I still cannot fathom how he treats his wife. From what he says it seems he kisses her ass and does as she obliges. Least that is what he says but damned if I know what happens behind closed doors. When he does bring her up it usually involves how he either A. he loves her SO much and feels SO GUILTY for continuing to cheat on her, B. how all his whereabouts must be accounted for at all times, he must text or call to check in at certain times, if he does not respond within a certain timeframe he needs to provide an explanation as to why, show screen shots of his phone, etc. to her should she ask, C. his mother-in-law also checks in with him to ensure he is “behaving himself” in the same manner as the wife (the mother-in-law was the one who was tipped off to his prior affair)…all this expected behavior of “checking in” is all because of his prior exposed infidelity. The way it seems (from my perspective) is that wifey controls HIM. And he deals with it because of his “allegiance” to her. And yes he used the word “allegiance”. So to me it sounds like SHE calls the shots.

          There’s always 3 sides to the story right? His, hers and the truth. I have his. So curious about hers and then the truth. (which is probably more closer to hers but damned if I know…)

          Sorry for the tangent there but your comment of “he treats her worse than the DLS” kind of spiraled my thoughts there!

          1. Windstorm2 says:

            He wants you to think that she controls the shots, but that’s because his a “poor, pitiful me” midranger. Sounds to me like she’s doing all she can to keep up with him, but he’s playing her and laughing at her inside. She seems to be acting out of desperation to me.

      2. Gabbanzobean,

        I have missed you here, and wondered if you were OK, even though I couldn’t recall interacting specifically with your posts.

        I am so sorry about the piano guy having the audacity to ensnare you yet again.

        I am the long term wife of a narcissist, and what he did to me was at least as bad as what he did to the so many that were not me. However the out come is the same. Pain for them, pain for me, FUEL for him.

        Yes, there was the terrible anniversary for me. More than one. Not sharing those details at the moment, too long, too terrible to put on your shoulders in your pain at the moment.

        I really did think I would hate the other woman should I know her or of her.

        Instead I have sympathy for those that have fallen into his trap.

        Though we are all individual people with our own traits, dreams and desires, we will always be nothing but fuel for him. He lied about you to me and he lies to you about me.

        Don’t believe him when he says his wife controls him. He is calling the shots in ALL his relationships, unless or until we escape, GOSO.

        Please, please, try to redirect the desire and love for him back to yourself. It belongs to you, and you deserve all the love, and he does not.

        Get back up on that NC horse, and we will ride with you. Your trail companions, who are here to call you back, and show you the way when you lose the trail again. However far ahead you think we are, we will hear you, and close ranks around you to get you back on path.

        When you are ready,


      3. Jenna says:


        Sometimes i feel that way abt my ex narc’s future wife – that i want to be a fly on the wall and see what exactly she experiences.

        Hg, would u consider writing an article abt this, esp pertaining to the mid-ranger? Something like, a wk in the life of a woman married to a mid, maybe 2 yrs into the marriage, so after golden prd is over? I know, seduce, deval, respite, repeat, but exactly what happens, w examples? I would kill to read it (not literally).

        Period sex. Are there any males in this article? Hg, have u ever had period sex? Does it bother u? Just curious…

        Him kissing w his eyes open – due to the need to see ur reaction aka FUEL. Damn these narcs!

        Gabs, feel free to vent here anytime. I don’t want u to go thru this alone. U need not feel ‘foolish’ because if anyone understands, it’s all of us right here on this blog.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You already know what the IPPS experiences. You do not need to be a fly on the wall about your narcissist’s future wife – that is just you wanting to maintain a connection to him.

          I have had period sex. It does not bother me.

          1. Jenna says:

            Ty hg.

            Yes, I do know what the ipps experiences but i would like to have known w specific examples eg. monday, tue, wed, etc. But i will channel my knowledge to formulate the likely weekly experience myself. Ty.
            Or if anyone has been married to a mid, do tell…

            Prd sex does not bother u? I’m going to be a bit graphic here. During a woman’s periods, there will be less friction for the man, thus less pleasure. So, it would be more abt pleasing her than pleasing urself, in other words pleasing her only to gain fuel and not much physical sensation in return?

          2. HG Tudor says:

            I understand why you would like to know more Jenna, I think you would be able to construct it from all of the information posted on the blog in terms of the relevant period of the dynamic and what happens in it.

            Period sex does not bother me. I use it as necessary dependent on the circumstances. As you know, it is the fuel which matters. Look, I have endured far worse in the name of fuel – for instances, I sat through Battlefield Earth for fuel even though the preponderance of Dutch angles irritated me (not to mention the awful script).

          3. Jenna says:

            Ty hg. I will do so.

            U r a patient man hg – er… during the golden prd!

          4. HG Tudor says:


          5. Gabrielle says:

            Jenna and HG:
            Bahahahahahahahha!!! You two are funny. The back and forth about period sex. HG is here to help us with narc related issues and you’re asking him questions about period sex! 😭😂 Too freaking funny!

            I’m more curious about kissing with eyes open! HG why would a mid range kiss with his eyes open?!

          6. HG Tudor says:

            He is somewhere else.

          7. Gabrielle says:

            Yikes!!! Could you…be a little more specific? Where do they go HG? Why?

          8. HG Tudor says:

            Thinking about somebody else.

          9. gabbanzobean says:

            I did call him out on it too. I said “why are you kissing me with your eyes open?” His response was “I close them sometimes!” Hmmm. So basically he is getting fuel from me and fuel from thinking about someone else? Oh and fuel from my question too I suppose?

          10. HG Tudor says:

            He is.

          11. jenna says:

            3x fuel! Excellent for him!😜

          12. Jenna says:


            I’m glad we got a chuckle out of u!

            Prd sex is a narc related issue. It shows the lengths of what they will endure for fuel!😅

          13. Jenna says:

            Omg i just watched the trailer for ‘battlefield earth’ on youtube:


            It looks dreadful!

            I actually feel sorry that u had to sit thru it for fuel! 😅

            Was ur ipps/ipss into sci fi?

          14. HG Tudor says:

            She was. Still it gave me material for the devaluation, so every cloud and that.

          15. Jenna says:

            “… material for deval… ”

            Of course, i should have known. Stored in ur mind for later use.

            I can’t get the trailer out of my mind. It’s disturbing! 😂

          16. Gabrielle says:

            Less friction for the man? Less pleasure? Yet Mr Cerebral mid range piano recital at church still managed to climax in under 10 minutes? 🤔 LOL.

          17. Jenna says:

            Gabs, but piano jerk usually climaxes sooner than that correct? 😅

          18. gabbanzobean says:

            Hahahahahahaha!!!! Yes he does!!!! Well he used to anyway, in the beginning the first few times. He tends to lasts a little longer each time, but for the most part he’s fairly swift about it. I just find it funny that you said period sex causes less friction and is less pleasure for the guy. You’d think that would deter them from climaxing too soon but….well….not in my case.

            And in reply to your other comment about it a narc issue and what they do for fuel. I guess you have a point. He was originally put off by it, so I wonder what changed his mind. His need for fuel I guess.

          19. Jenna says:

            Gabs, i would say a little less than 10 min is not soon at all. I’ve had less than 1 min b4. 😫 (not frm ex narc).

          20. Windstorm2 says:

            If the woman doesn’t feel comfortable having sex during her period, maybe she’s having cramps or embarrassed, then her narc may insist for the negative fuel from making her do something she really doesn’t want to do. It’s like a power thing.

            That’s why my husband would make me have sex during my period. It made me really wonder about how on tv a woman would say, “Not tonight, I have a headache.” That made no sense to me because if I felt bad, he enjoyed it more. And there was no getting away with, “Not tonight” for any reason. I just had to hope that the idea to have sex didn’t occur to him.

          21. HG Tudor says:


          22. Jenna says:

            Aww, i’m sorry abt that windstorm. Ty for ur input.

      4. narc affair says:

        Hi gabs…i hope you dont mind me chiming in. I really think youre being shelved. The fact he ignores texts tells me hes busy with someone else and i dont mean his wife. You feel jealousy over his wife which is normal given your situation but what about his fuel matrix he has set up and im certain he does. Source a , b and c….Those are the ones hes cycling you with and spinning a tale of how guilty he feels about cheating on his wife. No hes using that excuse to put you on the shelf while he has a turn with one of his other sources. The fact his wife keeps tabs on him is bc hes been a bad boy and has gotten caught and is under house arrest.
        I know how painful it is its like the worst rejection. My narc does good at juggling but i still can tell when im being subjected to a shelving bc the sex isnt as frequent and he friend zones me more or less then when im off the shelf he cant get enough of me. In between if he senses im growing frusterated he throws me a few crumbs. It makes your head spin. Hes damaged any of the magical attraction i had for him in the beginning. Narcissists are ok hopping between sources but when youre on the recieving end of this you lose that loving sexy feeling. You dont feel its at all genuine…and it isnt.
        Your narc has you hanging on by a string and is doing the bottom barrel bare minimum to keep you. Youre being severely taken advantage of. His not answering texts is bc youre being shelved and hes busy with someone else. He doesnt regard you enough to put in half an effort of maintenance.
        Id cut your losses you deserve way better! Best of luck ❤

        1. gabbanzobean says:

          Hi NarcAffair.
          Of course I do not mind. I was actually waiting on your advice as I remember you were warning me to NOT meet with him again. Yet I was stubborn and plowed through anyway.

          You just tripped 2 memories for me with your reply to me about being “shelved”. Memories from the start of my relationship with him 20 months ago. Before I let him have sex with me.

          Memory #1: At the start when I learned he was married, he said to me, “I see nothing wrong with having a relationship with you, as long as it does not infringe upon my marriage. My relationship with you does not negate the love I have for my wife, but it would hurt her if she ever knew. This is the debate that comes and goes in my head as I try to do the right thing. But the right thing to do and what I want to do are 2 different things.”

          Now after seeing me again….after telling me for the 3rd time “we are never having sex again” (and we keep having sex anyway despite his “promise” that we are not) now it is: “My guilt is too much to bare and soon I will be drunk at my desk at work and not able to sleep like I was back when my prior affair was exposed”.

          Explanation on that: He was leading a double life with another girl for about 2 years until it was exposed. Wife forgave him for it. This was about a year before he met me. He insists I was the first and last “slip up” since the other girl.

          How can he go back and forth with those statements? I see nothing wrong with it. Oh I try to do the right thing. Now it’s guilt? Which is it????!!!!!! Gahhhhhh!!!!

          Memory #2: At the start he says, “When my wife learned about the other girl I had to cease all communication with her and we never spoke again.”

          Later on….”Gabrielle I am confident we can get past the sexual stuff and just be friends someday, I know we can”
          Me: “How do you know that?”
          Him: “Well K and I still check in once a year with each other….we are now friends so if her and I can get past this naughty behavior I am confident we can too”
          Me: “I thought you said you never spoke to her again?”
          Him: “I almost left my family to be with her until got caught and then I realized I was losing my mind….I hurt my wife but I hurt K too…so I kind of have a life debt to her….”
          Me: “And what life debt is that?”
          Him: “To be there for her whenever she needs me. We check in about once a year with each other….”

          Again which one do I believe? We never spoke again and then oh but now we are friends and are there for each other??!!!! Which is it???!!! Again….Gahhhh!!

          Am I to assume she is still on his shelf too? But she is probably even MORE of a DLS than I am because he was actually caught with her?

          Oh and my personal favorite thing he said to me about 2 weeks before our reunion which after your shelf comment really screams “ding ding ding” at me…. “I know I send you a lot of mixed signals Gabrielle. And I am sorry for that. I indulge in our sexual attraction and it is wrong of me. But my willpower is weak and it will wane from time to time….”

          God, I wonder how many other DLS there are on his shelf.

          Sorry so long, thanks for reading if you made it to the end.

      5. narc affair says:

        Interesting the comments on period sex. Ive never had sex during my period but thats when im usually most in the mood and seven days after(ovulation). Ive heard orgasms for the woman are at the pique during their period. My narc is fine with sex during it but ive felt self conscious about it. Im very open sexually but sex during that time i do find a bit embarressing and messy. When ive masterbated during my period its been really intense im not sure why maybe bc thingscare engorged and swollen and you feel it more inside.

        1. gabbanzobean says:

          Your explanation makes sense. It (period sex that is) definitely felt more intense than the other times we had sex. Perhaps that is why. Because my body was engorged, heightened, whatever…… I am going to keep telling myself this when I go on an emotional loop reminiscing of this most recent intimacy with mr. piano recital. It was all me and not him. LOL. As Dr. HQ said in a prior article…..he’s a dildo with a heartbeat right? LOL. I keep trying to remember the black as black eyes that were open while I kissed him. It hurts that he is not real. 🙁

      6. narc affair says:

        Hi gabs…thats sweet of you to say about my advice but im no expert im just letting you know my thoughts and what ive been thru thats similiar. Im still on the learning journey just like you.
        What you said about him saying he ceased all communication and now says he contacts K once a year…bs. Id put money on it this is the dls or secondary source hes very much involved with and why he loses interest and doesnt reply to your texts. Hes involved with her again. It could also be another source or a few of them but my gut tells me its her bc narcs tell on themselves and he more or less was telling you that he almost left his family for her. My narc did the same. Around the time i first sensed something was very different(back then i didnt know about shelving) he out of the blue brought up an ex he “never talks to”. He talked about how bubbley she was but was too “high maintenance”. Then it switched to she sends the odd “polite” hello by email. This sent huge red alerts and i suspect hes got her in his fuel matrix. Shes one of his sources.
        The thing is hes telling you theres more to the story by dropping bits of info and admitting to more. I wouldnt be surprised if he has a handful of women hes involved with. The guilt act i dont buy into thats his out card to explain his disappearances and breaks from you. He can fall back on the i feel guilty we cant do this anymore card when hes involved with others. His wife is one of many im sure.
        Its a hard pill to swallow but logic says hes being dishonest and has been from day one.
        This is of course my opinion bc i dont know him but it sounds suspicious.
        Be easy on yourself it takes time to digest the truth 💓

      7. gabbanzobean says:

        Narc Affair,
        It is funny you should say that about his former ex. Good God I feel like my brain has been stuck in the clouds here and I am now piecing the narc puzzle together. The most random ridiculous things are now coming into my head of what he has said here and there over the last few months. I just remembered another one. When the 5 months of NC ended over the summer and we began having phone calls again he casually mentioned his former coworker to me. I was trying to keep things neutral and non emotional even though I was so happy we were communicating again. He asked me if there had been anyone else and I was honest and said I came close once but nope. I asked him the same and he told me no as well. (yeah right lol)…

        Anyway back to the former coworker story….he told me a how when this girl first began working with him, she hated him but then they eventually became friends. And he confided in her about his relationship with me. When I politely said “I thought you said no one in your life knew about us”, He said “yeah that was how it was but I was so guilt ridden that I ended up confiding in her because she was doing the same as me, she was cheating on her husband. With 4 other guys having multiple affairs. So we ended up bonding over that. She is the only one who knows I never even told my best friend” (his best friend is long distance and lives about 7 hours away). When I asked why he did not share such things with the best friend (a guy friend) he said “oh well after I cheated on my wife he was so disgusted with me so I’d never be able to tell him about repeating that behavior with you. But (coworker friend) and I….it was different….I trust her and I know she’d never tell my wife…”

        I had so many follow up questions I wanted to ask but I kept my mouth shut. I recall saying “oh so there is some chick out there who I do not know that now trolls my social media” and I said it half heartedly like a joke. He made a comment of “oh don’t worry, she isn’t going to reach out to you or anything like that. But she does think that you are WAY too attached to me”. Geeze how blind was I let that red flag dance over me. I bet she is in his matrix of other women too! She thinks I am too attached to him. Why does she even care? I bet he made that part up as a way to tell me that HE thinks I am too attached.

        My head has been stuck in the Narc cloud yet again.

        1. Windstorm2 says:

          Maybe it’s just me, Gabs, but that sounds eerily like what he told you about the other girl he’d had an affair with when you all first got together. I’d imagine he’s having the exact same relationship with this new girl that he’s had with you. Now he’ll keep you barely hanging on like he does the last girl and no telling how many others.

          When you are inside a bubble, you can’t see the bubble, but from the outside it’s clearly visible. From the outside of this, it sure seems like you’re just one of many on the shelf and he has a new preferred DLS.

          I’m afraid that when you are trying to analyze what all he has said to you to figure out what it means, you’re not taking into consideration that it’s highly possible that everything he has said to you were lies – at best with little bits of truth embedded to make them seem realistic. He’s a cerebral, right? So is mine. They love to play games -especially mind games. Tricking, misleading and fooling people makes them feel superior and is a major source of their fuel.

          I hate to sound harsh. But the way you described him he isn’t wealthy or powerful and he’s a cowardly midranger. Tricking and using women like you may be one of his main ways of justifying his inner feelings of superiority.

      8. narc affair says:

        Hi gabs….wow red flags for sure! Dont feel bad about having your head in the clouds ive been with my narc 7 yrs and i still catch my head drifting back up there from time to time but the knowledge ive gained cannot be ignored. Once you know what youre dealing with theres no going back to that naive state.
        I get the sense his comment about his coworker saying you were too attached was two fold. To make you jealous and to put it out there that you were being too clingy. The mere fact he brought her up was to put the seed of doubt in your mind that its only you on the side. He was more than likely letting you know you werent the only one. Hes on an ego trip and had to let you know hes made this connection at work. In a way bragging about how women attach to him. My narcs done this too so i see it plain as day.
        How do you feel about the fact he could have other secondaries or dls? Is it something you can accept and are ok with? I ask bc its a good question to ask yourself bc in all likelyhood thats whats going on. After coming to terms with that it really tarnishes any romantic feelings. Im still love with my narc but romantic wise thats deflated. More and more its inching towards a friendship type love. I cant even use the term friendship bc it isnt a true friendship like we have with others who can reciprocate. He does a lot to show me im important to him(his needs) but hes done some mean things to me and enjoyed it so no its not a true friendship. True friendships have trust.
        I really do think his “guilt” and we cant have sex anymore is bc he has others and he cant spread himself out enough to be there for you. His wife is the last person to be jealous of. Hes probably cheating on her left right and center.
        It takes time to adjust to the logic side of things but time helps with that. Youre seeing the cycle repeat and the red flags and its not as romantic as it once seemed.

      9. narc affair says:

        I forgot to add…you have to wonder how him and his coworker became so close she could tell him about her affairs??? To me thats a very intimate discussion and one you dont just tell anyone.

  10. Daniel says:

    Hg- If a MR moves away do they find a new IPPS?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Do you mean if they have an existing IPPS but they move away for say work reasons, would they find a new IPPS? Not necessarily immediately, but over time they would do so. It would depend on the constitution of the fuel matrix.

  11. tyu12 says:

    HG: What is the best way to deal with this situation?
    I was thinking if I was a Dirty Secrete Secondary Source, nobody knows about me. So I can 100% act like the narc never existed in my life. Is this a good strategy? or would the narc aim to prove I was lying? In of our calls he reminded me that he still had my sexy pics. Not sure if that was a threat.

    I have escaped, almost 3 months now 😀 yeeeah!!! Getting a bunch of proxy hoovers and one small hoover on social media from him, all which I have been ignoring.

    Is it normal to get proxy hoovers if I was a dirty secrete? But I feel I am almost free. I need to convince my mind that he never existed.

    This was a hard article to read :'( But excellent. Great work!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I am glad you liked the article.

      Yes, you can have any type of hoover as a DLS. You should continue to ignore the hoovers and act as if he never existed.

      1. tyu12 says:

        Thank you very very much. I had no idea that proxy hoovers did not require much energy. In my mind, they would require energy because you would need to explain to the proxy how to execute the plan, be vigilant that the plan is being executed correctly etc. But maybe if you already have weak minds in your ranks getting them to do this is easy.
        I am a bit annoyed that proxy hoovers do not need much energy because they sure do bug me. They have been a time sink. Guess why they are so effective.

        Great writing. Fantastic work. I have buying your books. Keep it up! Onward and Upward!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          That is correct. People think that there is often some ornate planning and persuasion that goes into them, but usually the Lieutenant will be spun a lie and spring into action to obtain the narcissist’s approval anyway, so there is not a lot of effort for many proxy hoovers. Thank you for reading.

  12. Insatiable Learner says:

    Hi Ladyeverlasting, even as a DLS, you will be seeing typical red flags and narcissistic behaviors, like future faking, lies, allegations of the abusive and crazy ex or current partner or both, hot and cold treatment, inconsistency, words not matching actions, over the top flattery followed by distancing, control by narc, everything on the narc’s terms, etc. Hope this helps.

    1. Thank you!

      For some reason WordPress does not alert me to replies, so it’s always nice to come back and see a question answered!

  13. K says:

    HG, how much of this is a Conscious deliberate thought process on the part of the narcissist, and how much is instinct and automatic?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Depends on the school of narcissist.

      1. K says:

        Can you elaborate?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          We are creatures of expedience, so we will tell you that you look amazing if that suits our purposes. We will say you look terrible (even one day after we said you looked amazing) again if it suits our purposes to do so. We are fluid and adapt to whatever needs to be done or said so we gain fuel and remain in control.

      2. K says:

        Also, does the narc ever tell the DLS intimate partner that he/she loves her/him? Or do they try not to give them too much so they don’t expect too much?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          The narcissist will say whatever needs to be said to get what he or she wants and if that means telling they love the DLS, we will.

  14. Many of my friends had relationships like this when we were in our twenties. They would always end up hurt by overestimating their ability to not attach to the man.

    I can’t imagine that all the men in these scenarios were narcissists, so how would a DLS be able to tell the difference between a sex only relationship and a narcissistic relationship?

    It doesn’t sound like there’s a massive devaluation or any sort of discard.

    I feel like I should already know this from reading so many of your books and your blog. Apologies if I haven’t been keeping up!

    1. ng27 says:

      Forgive me for jumping in, but the relationship is not primarily about sex, it’s about fuel and control

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Absolutely right.

      2. Insatiable Learner says:

        HG, so if this kind of relationship is about fuel and control, why does the narc place the DLS who is loyal to him, under his control, and gushes with fuel on the shelf instead of regularly engaging with her? And I do not mean meeting up, I am just talking about communicating. Many thanks!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Because he sees no need to regularly engage with her since this would damage other elements which are central to the existence of the narcissist.

  15. NC says:

    How do you feel when a DLS quits seeing you and goes NC? Unfazed? Do you just find a new DLS?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      They don’t.

      1. 12345 says:

        You got that right. I was a DLS and the problem is that I didn’t see him enough to get the full devaluation that I know he’s capable of. Then seemingly out of nowhere he’s gone. Just gone. I wasn’t going to quit seeing him. I was determined to stay on the hamster wheel in the hopes that I would be good enough for him someday. He knew that way before I did.

  16. Insatiable Learner says:

    Hi HG, is it a problem in the narc’s opinion that the DLS loves the narc as opposed to it all being just about sex? Thank you!

    1. HG Tudor says:


      1. Windstorm2 says:

        HG, would it be a problem if she didn’t love the narc and was just using him for sex? Would he see that as criticism?

        1. HG Tudor says:


      2. ava101 says:


  17. Erin says:

    HG, can a golden period last indefinitely? Would it be possible for a narc to keep the illusion living with someone for more than 5 years or would devaluation start before that?
    My devaluation with my ex Greater narc started after about a year, a year and a half, but I don’t know if that is a long or short time by narc standards!

    Also, would it be fair to say that a DLS, dumping/going no contact with a narc, could inflict an even bigger criticism than an IPPS doing so, because in the narc’s eyes the DLS is already inferior to begin with? I mean, if the narc didn’t think the DLS worthy of being in their circles, surely being rejected by them must sting all the more…What do you think?

    As ever, thank you for your insightful and helpful posts, I look forward to them.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I assume you mean by reference to the DLS. There could be a golden period with a DLS for 5 years, yes but it would nee unusual.

      The IPPS would wound the narcissist by escaping to a greater degree than the DLS because a DLS is an IPSS and therefore ranks lower than the IPPS.

      You are welcome.

      1. Erin says:

        Thank you for the reply, HG, you are always succinct but exhaustive.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are welcome. Makes a change to be described as exhaustive as opposed to exhausting.

  18. ava101 says:

    HG? If an empath meets a dominant somatic narc with possibly a slight sadistic streak from time to time to play – how long do you think he would respect boundaries and keep doing nothing she doesn’t want? Or is a Dirty Little Secret Source always in a bronze period?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      For as long as the fuel suits his needs and/or the DLS is compliant.

      1. ava101 says:

        So it could be safe for a long time? But shift at any time? Do you think there are warning signs beforehand?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Possibly, but it is not wise to entertain the risk. Yes, it could shift at any time and there would not be warning signs.

  19. ANK says:

    “Unfortunately for you, you do not fit in with the image we wish to convey to the world. You do not fit with what we wish to show. If we ever saw you, by chance, when we are out with our facade, be that family, friends or colleagues, we would ignore you and pretend we did not know you. Of course, later that day we would lay on the charm to excuse our behaviour because we do not want to let you go either. You are a brilliant stick on emergency fuel patch. You provide fuel and you remain hanging on, waiting for the day that you hopefully emerge blinking into the light of the golden period for the primary source.

    That is never going to happen. Not that we will admit it to you.

    Stay in that dark corner and wait for our call.

    You are a dirty little secret.”

    Yep that’s what I concluded I was before and continued to be when he got his new IPPS.

    I always felt that he would not want to make me a proper partner and he kind of admitted that when he came out with the reason as to why we would not work – different cultural background. Not much of an excuse, but the best he could think of at the time I guess.

    He hasn’t ignored me in public, but it has been a hello only. Followed by texts laying on the charm, and most recently a call and apologies, with a weight-of-the-world voice on, trying to make me feel sorry for him.

    1. ng27 says:

      I’ve been wondering how you are doing.

      1. ANK says:

        Hi NG27.

        I replied you to you under the Dirty Little secret article from February 12.

        Don’t know if you have read that, but just to summarise I had a birthday hoover. Stupidly ended up sleeping with him, had a few texts and then didn’t hear from at all.

        I resisted any urge to contact him and was doing ok, despite feeling angry at him, until saw his IPPS couple of weeks ago which made me fel crap and to cap that I she was walking up to his office building when I was there for work stuff. He came out of the building, saw me which I guess stopped him from kissing her, as i don;t think he wants me to know who his IPPS is. He said a hello. I ignored him. He called later that evening to say sorry he had treated my like shit, that he was a shit, etc. things were tough for him, work was stressful etc etc.

        And then I saw them both again the following day. He must have seen me first because he was walking behind her.

        Seeing them together has send me for a backwards spin. That feeling of being kicked in the guts is back together with anxiety. Spent all weekend just lying on the couch, not able to eat, with thoughts of them together going round in my head.

        Wish he would just take early retirement and go far away. He doesn’t need the money.

        How about you NG27, what; happening with you.

    2. ng27 says:

      Hi Ank!!!
      I’m replying to your birthday story…not easy to answer directly to that for some reason I apologize.

      I’m so sorry to hear about your set back, but I one hundred percent understand. I just hate that you are forced into actually seeing him face to face that must be awful. I can conjure up the physical reaction it gives you by reading your story, I know that feeling all too well.

      I’m doing ok. I’ve plunged myself into my job. I don’t go out much. I’m not dating. No interest. And if one more of my friends says, I just can’t understand why you aren’t seeing anyone, I may scream!!!

      I saw him unexpectedly back in early August. I looked up at a restaurant I had just entered, and he was staring at me from across the room. Black eyes. No reaction in his face. I tried to hide that I started shaking but I’m sure he could tell. I left bc there were no tables available, thank God.

      That set me back. Hard. I would have acknowledged him had he even nodded or smiled. But nothing. Like I don’t and never existed.

      It’s been nine months of NC, I don’t count that blip because I didn’t plan it.

      I still don’t sleep well. And I miss what I thought we had.

      I hope your days get better and better! I hope you can stay clear of him. The farther away the healthier for you.

      Wish we could get together and have lunch to swap more war stories.


      1. ANK says:

        Hi Ng27

        Thank you.

        9 months of NC and you were still shaking when you saw him. The effect is so deep!

        I hope you are spending time with a few good friends at least. I hope you are not too alone.

        After all the anxiety and panic at the weekend I was glad to get back to work. Plenty of anxiety attacks at work still. Only this evening have I felt calm.

        If it had only been him I think I might not have felt so bad. It was the fact that the IPPS was with him that sent me spiralling into a panic pit.

        Are you from the UK?

  20. Pinkfire says:

    HG, is it possible to be demoted from IPPS to DLS? Thank you.

    1. HG Tudor says:


      1. Sarah says:

        How? When an IPPS knows all his ‘friends’ and is much more involved in his normal life?
        A DLS is just that. A secret.
        If she’s demoted, the narc has much more to lose if she decides to reveal his nature, no?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Not necessarily.

  21. ava101 says:

    HG, what would you do if you met a woman with all the qualities you are looking for, who is truly wonderful, but whose clothing style you wouldn’t find acceptable?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Send her to a stylist.

      1. ava101 says:

        So, anything that can be fixed, even though you are not exactly thrilled about it, is no reason to not consider her as IPPS?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          If the empathic, class and special traits are there, the dress sense becomes a minor issue and one which is perfectly capable of being remedied. Show me someone who would refuse some time with a stylist and you will show me a liar.

      2. ava101 says:

        Thank you, HG, you are helping my thought process a lot! 🙂

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