The Support Forum Fraud


There are many online support forums that exist with regard to the issue of narcissism and narcissistic abuse.

I have previously moved amongst the shadows of these blogs, Facebook sites, Twitter pages and so forth, observing and absorbing the behaviours that I have witnessed. There are those which provide information. Others are the cathartic disclosures of victims who are seeking to warn as well as recount their own horrors alongside their journey or recovery. There are others which are there to assist people in healing from the trauma they have suffered. The quality and reliability of them varies. Amidst the proliferation of support forums lurk our kind.

There is no doubt that our kind inhabit these places. Indeed, from time to time Lesser and Mid-Range Narcissists have appeared and frequented my blog. Easy for me to spot, but less so for others. Naturally, narcissists appear at other sites and forums, commenting and interacting. Those narcissists will gain some fuel from the interaction with the people on that forum, but more specifically they will look to befriend a fellow commenter or two and take their interaction off blog and onto private messaging, the telephone, Skype and ultimately meeting in person. The Tertiary Source becomes a secondary source and the provision of fuel increases in potency, quantity and frequency. A separate article will cover that type of interaction.

The narcissist also operates on these support forums in a different capacity ; that of moderator, administrator or host.

How does this manifest?

First of all, if a Greater operates such a forum then he or she will be open about the fact, confirm what they are and explain much about the way we think and operate. These sites are extremely rare. Greaters are very rare and those which operate sites similar to mine are even rarer. However, those that do exist make it clear what the site is and who is operating it. This rarity and the common misunderstanding that all narcissists do not know what they are, leads some people to regard such sites in a mistaken manner.

Secondly, a Lesser would not operate such a forum. He or she has no idea what he or she is and being utterly devoid of empathy (including cognitive empathy), it would never occur to the Lesser to devise such a site. They have no interest in appearing as a saintly figure and they have no desire to listen to the woes of others. The Lesser will frequent the forums but they will not run them, indeed they prefer to utilise someone else’s work to enable them to boast about their own (supposed) encounters with a narcissist and then take centre stage as they brag about their life style, attack other commenters and do so with an utter lack of awareness as to their behaviour and of course, what they are.

Thirdly, it is the Mid-Ranger who poses the problem with regard to the creation and running of these forums. Why the Mid-Ranger? Again, he or she does not know what she is but these sites appeal to them because:-

  1. They are able to engage in their façade management. The Mid Range Narcissist genuinely believes that he or she is a good person, a decent person , an empathic person. It is other people who are the horrible, abusive narcissists. Not them.
  2. The site gives them an excellent vehicle to sound off about their own perceived mis-treatment. The Mid Ranger loves a good Pity Party, Compassion Conference or Sympathy Symposium and those that interact with these people buy into this.
  3. It enables them to continue a campaign against those the Mid Range Narcissist perceives as the abuser. Thus the ex-girlfriend, the parents, the boss or the once upon a time best friend, all find themselves routinely smeared and the validation that the site’s readers provides to the Mid Range Narcissist only goes to consolidate in their minds that they are a good person and that they are truly the victim.

The Mid Ranger is the narcissist who you will find operating these forums (or fora if you prefer) . Of course not all of the online support forums are operated by our kind, far from it, but there is a noticeable presence by our kind. Indeed, I have had many of my readers express their concerns and suspicions about certain sites and their provenance, based on their experiences there and what they have witnessed.

This is difficult for people to recognise. They will have some familiarity naturally with the idea of narcissism, since why else are they at a narcissist abuse support forum?! However, it is highly likely that their skills have not yet become attuned to recognising our kind and certainly not this particular wolf in sheep’s clothing.

What then are the indicators which show that a narcissist is operating the site (or is involved as a moderator or administrator)? Based on what I have witnessed at certain sites, you should be aware of the following

  1. Invalidation. The subject of narcissism is both emotive and complex and therefore people have various experiences, opinions and theories. Some may simply be incorrect. Some may be based on a misunderstanding. Some however remain valid because that is the experience of the individual. The Support Forum Fraud (“SFF”) will reject out of hand the experience of the reader or commenter if it disagrees with, is at odds with or contradicts something stated by the SFF. Rather than recognising a difference of opinion, or politely explaining why the reader’s view is mistaken, the SFF will be dismissive.
  2. Aggressive. If the reader holds their ground with the SFF then they will be treated in an aggressive fashion. The reader is not insulting or provocative and merely states their view. They are treated to an aggressive response from the SFF. This is the manifestation of the MRN’s ignited fury. They will be told they know nothing, that they are being ridiculous, that the SFF knows far better and reminded that the SFF operates the forum.
  3. Labelling. The SFF will label the reader as an abuser or as a narcissist. I have seen this happen on many occasions and is a rapid dose of projection designed to put down, invalidate and insult the reader.
  4. The Labelling also has a further effect. It acts as a call to arms to other readers to launch into an attack against the hapless reader. The SFF expects their readership to gang up on this ‘narcissist’ and tell them what they are and drum them from the forum. Who are those who respond to this clarion call of the SFF? They belong to two groups  ; other narcissists and mis-guided victims. The former group of course do not know what they are. The Lessers will see it as an excellent opportunity for some verbal abuse provocation. The Mid Rangers will see it as a chance to curry favour with the host and demonstrate their own credentials as a ‘good’ person. The Mis-Guided Victims (often newbies) are still very hurt by their experience and their inexperience and current world view causes them to lash out at someone who they have mistakenly seen as a narcissist. It is an easy mistake for them to make, after all, they are still learning and the supposed guru of the host has declared this person to be a narcissist, so it must be true. There will be those, those who are more experienced and empathic who will defend the reader, recognising they are not a narcissist and that the person is entitled to express their opinion. They will be set on also and therefore this often causes others to avoid the fray to begin with.
  5. The host will engage in repeated recollections of their own horrendous treatment at the hands of the narcissist. It will be like a daily sermon as they rail against this person with a zealous enthusiasm which lasts for far too long for that of a genuine victim.
  6. The host having identified a supposed narcissist on the site will not let the matter go. If the reader remains (or is allowed to remain) on the site, they will be repeatedly branded and subjected to passive aggressive remarks. Even once gone or banished, they will be made mention of by the SFF.
  7. The SFF will also make repeated reference to their “online attackers” or their “trolls” in order to gain sympathy from readers. These supposed attackers remain vague and amorphous in identity because they often do not exist, but they are a perception of the SFF.
  8. The SFF will dole out the Pity Plays in order to gain the sympathy and support of their readers. Whilst they will repeatedly make mention of how badly they have been treated by the ‘narcissist’ they were ensnared by, they will also make such comments as “I don’t why I bother doing this at times” and “I am sick of not being appreciated” and “some of you have no idea how much effort this takes”.
  9. Waterworks. If the SFF uses videos on the site or has a YouTube presence then the crocodile, self-pitying tears will flow. Those whose tears are genuine either will not post material containing them (they do not want people to see or regard it as unprofessional) or if they do it is clear it is genuine. The SFF’s waterworks will be forced as they summon up the tears. They will switch them on and off like the flicking of the switch. Once you know what to look for, you will see them.
  10. There is a lack of originality in the material. The SFF can only pose as the supposed empathic supporter of the abused not through actual experience or emotional empathy but through mimicry. Accordingly, the material that is placed on the site will be drawn from elsewhere. Often, the lazier SFF (coupled with their sense of entitlement and lack of accountability) will steal the work of others and either not credit it to the original author or pass it off as their own.
  11. There will be passive aggressive comments made towards the commenters and readers. Again, this is not always obvious to newcomers, but those with experience will soon spot this indicator and allied with points above the picture becomes clear.
  12. Sudden blocking. A reader will find themselves blocked from the site without any explanation or understanding as to what they have done. This passive aggressive response will arise because the SFF has perceived some behaviour of the reader which is unacceptable and thus wounded, has lashed out with this cold fury by providing a Silent Treatment.

Over time, the aggregate of these behaviours will demonstrate the true nature of the person operating the site and you will then realise just who is really behind the supposed caring, empathic persona.

You may have found yourself on the receiving end of such behaviour previously. Of course, you will not experience this behaviour in the future. Why? Well, you have no reason to go anywhere else than here now, have you!?


92 thoughts on “The Support Forum Fraud

  1. Fran says:

    I wonder if the feelings if being wronged or treated aggressively I often experience come from a secret narcissism or rather because I really have been a doormat and had problems asserting myself.

    The thought of unconsciously being a narcissist scares and bugs me. These feelings of being run over constantly do create some intense anger. In turn I hate and want to beat myself up for maybe being a narcissist and the seemingly inappropriate anger.

    I probably have PTSD though which would contribute to these feelings of anger.
    I also think I sometimes wallow in self pity and the comforting of others rather than seriously trying to rise above it all. I sometimes feel there’s something deeply wrong with me but I’m not sure what it is.

    Mostly I can empathize well with others and other times I feel very disconnected and indifferent or even hostile towards others.
    I also tend to be quite hard on myself. Maybe it’s Borderline? I have to do some more research I guess…

    1. Windstorm2 says:

      Your description of yourself reminds me of myself in my 20s-30s. Makes me wonder if your parents are narcs, too. You are not a narcissist, though, if you have empathy for others. So don’t worry about that one. When we’re overwhelmed and struggling our empathy and desire to be around others can shut off temporarily. I think that’s a self-defense mechanism so we can focus on our own healing.

      When I was so broken inside and suffering, I often got angry with my family because I needed their love and support and they did not give it to me. It seemed that they just kept demanding more and more from me and didn’t care/didn’t see how I was breaking apart and needed their help.

      The reality seemed to be that we just all have our own problems that we are struggling with. And most people don’t havethe time, the level of empathy to see into others and understand their pain, or the wisdom and strength to be much help. I had to heal myself, from the inside. A good counselor helps. Staying here on this blog, reading and sharing will help. You’re on the right track researching and studying. You very well may be broken inside – I certainly was. But that’s one of the great things about being alive – we can heal. I have, you will too. ❤️

      1. Fran says:

        Windstorm2- thank you.

        Thankfully my parents are not narcs but I believe I probably inherited their traumata – my mom was raised by two narcs and my father also had a quite traumatic childhood. I also inherited the high sensitivity. I was fearful and vulnerable from an early age on which made me very receptive for more bad stuff.
        I’m blessed to have a very supporting and understanding family, though I had big difficulties with my mom when I was younger and I felt so distrustful that I too was often angry or annoyed by my parents.

  2. Antifragile says:

    If there are sites like “Narcissists Exposed” exist, where empaths share faces of narcs.. What if there are also similar sites for narcs? “NarciShare” for example. “Never run out of fuel!”. And categories – empaths presented by cities and time of seduction needed. Two days needed.. One week…

    1. Erin says:

      That’s easy to answer: it would require narcs to want to help other narcs…Due to their entitlement and selfishness, the narcs would expect to go there and see empaths to seduce, but they would not be willing to share their own in return. Hence, nobody would upload anything and the site would fail based on its own premise.
      Also, it would only “work” for greaters, as lessers and mids do not recognise themselves as empaths.

      As for the idea of !narcissists Exposed” and such—Who is to say that the people uploading are not simply narcs on a smear campaign? It’s silly

      1. Antifragile says:

        (I’m just having fun, Erin, don’t take for serious)) Of course such a project is non viable))

  3. amandaSnapChat says:

    I just blocked from a forum :'(
    I briefly questioned the admins behaviors because one mentioned that she had read a post from a person who was very anxious and not done anything about it. It was alarming in my eye that she would admit that she had read it and not taken action (not even accepted it to be posted in the community where the person could potentially get help)

    Is this a narc thing to do?

    I think I need to quit wasting time with narc related stuff.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Well I wouldn’t necessarily do anything about a post from somebody who was very anxious – I might suggest a way of countering that situation, but if I did not and someone criticised me for not doing so I would not block the critic for airing their opinion. I may set them straight as to why I adopted the stance I did but I wouldn’t block. However, I could see a Mid Range Narcissist doing so.

      1. dickforlong says:

        An encouraging aspect of THIS blog is despite extreme provocation sometimes by narcs on here the empaths often do not jump into the fray….. A direct result of your education HG. I feel narcs are trying to get reactions by their posts… Just for fuel.

        The more annoyed I am the more i try to refrain from responding.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Indeed, although there is nothing to stop you from responding in a fuel free fashion which would allow you to pat yourself on the back for your heightened knowledge.

          1. dickforlong says:

            Funny story about that…

            A narc (the mother of my live in marc’s daughter)I know on occasion would send text after text of invective. All i would hear is ping ping ping. I would call her and say “I’m so glad you texted. I’ve been meaning to call you….” talk about confused. I am teaching her daughter how to have the power in her relationship. Do not respond emotionally. That is all she wants and she WILL up the ante in an attempt to get you to engage.

  4. Fiona says:

    Thank God for empire builders because where would we be without them. I am descended from an African sugar harvester slave (West Indies)….I have benefited massively from European colonialism.

  5. Fiona says:

    “There’s a geopolitical and historical angle to psychopathy that is much more important” it’s pretty much a personality disorder – are you implying historical events of the past are narcissistic ie colonialism by any chance….

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Many of those involved in empire building are of our kind.

      1. Sarabella says:

        But the ability of your kind to build empires depends entirely on the same characteristics found in a personal victim but en masse. Dreamers, the ignorant, easily tapped into energy to triangulate (like 45 triangulating with his racism, pitting the country against the NFL, etc). Without employing those tactics, there would be no empire. It is the malignancy which builds.

    2. FH says:

      I wrote about this the other day, it’s a long piece, but here’s a bit:

      “The existing social order, such as it was, has been dissolved, with nothing to take its place. Children in family environments without boundaries with genetic predispositions to psychopathy will become psychopaths and, lacking the genes, will express codependency, C-PTSD or other maladies that make them open to serial abuse. Trauma bonding substitutes for love.

      Much the same can be said for a polity whose boundaries have been dissolved. The psychopathic leader, an ersatz father or mother figure, will break promises, take away what little you have, send your children to die in far away lands, and you will love them for it. You abuse me because you love me, abuse me so I may love you.”

  6. FH says:

    I literally just got ejected from the only FB group I had joined. What you describe – lots of “he did this, I did that” and the same “Go NC” advice. I tried to raise the tone of the conversation a bit with my posts, and they gave me the boot.

    I am past the part where I recount the story. I want this to become an intellectual pursuit – the story is so much bigger than tales of broken hearts. There’s a geopolitical and historical angle to psychopathy that is much more important.

    1. HG Tudor says:


  7. Fiona says:

    Trump is a breath of fresh air – he has caused a lot of high profile liberals to self-destruct. The Trump train is a much needed slap in the face for the lefty/liberal brigade who have pushed some really sick immoral & detrimental fringe social justice causes to be accepted (in some cases celebrated) by our mainstream society. The guy has single handedly widened the Overton Window bringing some much needed opinions and very legitimate viewpoints into the public arena.Unfortunately over recent decades the Overton Window was massively narrowed and so anyone expressing views that didn’t sync up with the Liberal Leftist narrative, ran the very real risk of being socially undermined – ultimately leading to a lowered (demeaned) status in the community,perceived as a ‘bad’ person who had no right to voice an opinion. Trump has changed that like a boss. Gotta love the Donald.

    1. Sarabella says:

      Fiona, you know nothing about malignant narcissism if you can spew all of that.

      1. Erin says:

        Ok now I do question fiona being a narcissist, or at least not an empath!

  8. horseyak says:

    I’m wondering if House of Mirrors was one of the forums in question. I am not expecting you to answer, but if you would like to, I would like to know. This blog was particularly nasty to folks who did not agree with the host’s every observation.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hello Horseyak, no it wasn’t, I hadn’t heard of that forum.

      1. horseyak says:

        Thank you!

  9. Just Me says:

    HG, yep… Bill too. Long ago, I saw the larger picture, but remained blind to my own situation. Turkey in the oven, wine glass in hand, and a toast to you… for helping me connect the dots in my own life.

  10. Fiona says:

    I support Trump – I’m English not American but I wholeheartedly approve of him trying to rid his country of immigrants. I also admire the way he stands up the the ultra liberal mainstream media He speaks with an authentic voice and is not beholden to the corporations who increasingly seek to control our everyday lives. The only thing I disapprove of is his habitual kowtowing to Israeli interests.

    1. Witch says:

      I too think America should be rid of white people who are not native, they don’t belong there!

    2. Bibi says:

      Fiona, live in the US for a year and you won’t support him. He doesn’t care about his people. Insurance here is a mess, not to mention his new Internet hoopla that would censor. He abuses nearly everyone he works with. He can’t hold a professional demeanor to save his life. The man is a complete incompetent.

      1. Fiona says:

        If you want an example of a disingenuous incompetent US president you should take a close look at Obama who is easily the worst leader the USA has ever known. Donald Trump is not perfect by any means but he stands up to the Left and their habitual denigration of white people – victimocracy. Encouraging people to organize themselves into victim groups is incredibly sick & dysfunctional. Trump is standing up to that….good on him and long may it continue.

    3. Sarabella says:

      Fiona, there is nothing authentic about 45. He is a corporation so that is a funny thing to say, that he is not a part of the very thing he pretends to be against. He is the rich, entitled narcisssim elite. Every word salad, gaslighting noise that comes out of his mouth is profoundly disturbing. Not to mention his own confession to being a sexual criminal.

  11. NP says:

    OM.G How true…

  12. Just Me says:

    Out of curiosity, doesn’t anyone else see that Hillary is a narcissist as well? They all are… and they run the world.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Both Hillary and Bill are narcissists.

      1. Mess says:

        As are Trump and most politicians as well as many powerful figures in the world of business and a large number of celebrities …

  13. Witch says:

    I can’t reply to your comment directly.
    You have valid points in regards to mothers being more likely to have custody of children (as it should be, in fact most normal fathers do not want full time custody and 24/7 responsiblity over the children) and why that is particularly dangerous in regards in female narcs.

    However, I would not say female narcissists are MORE dangerous over all. I would argue that usually the wider society/culture cultivates male narcissism and that male narcissists are more likely to have a higher victim count because he is usually not bound to house.
    And as you say because family court often fails to recognise the impact of emotional abuse as it’s difficult to provide evidence of it, narc fathers are granted regular access to the children.

    It also may take over a decade or more before a female victim separates from a Narc (if she ever does) which means the children have already been exposed to domestic abuse perpetrated by their father for a significant period of time. Also do not underestimate the male narcs ability to manipulate the children against their mother.

    Furthermore when males go full blown psycho they can go as far as to murder people and have sex with the corpse. I would argue that the level of potential sadism with males on the anti social spectrum out ways that of females overall.

    I believe female narcs are just as danergous as males narcs, but I don’t believe they are MORE dangerous overall.

  14. Antifragile says:


    And this: “Of course, you will not experience this behaviour in the future. Why? Well, you have no reason to go anywhere else than here now, have you!?” Absolutely true!

    For me all the other information resources were abandoned altogether when somebody there dropped a video somewhere in comments… the video about six hoovers. At that point my long “Knowing the Narcissist” video journey to having all the answers started!..
    HG is the best.
    I finally found the answer to the last question I had – question which I even addressed personally to Sam Vaknin hoping he knows – what does stalking means? Sam probably was not a stalker himself; that topic wasn’t in his book, and same his answer was very general.
    But I knew my superhuman was engaged in stalking of one of his previous Primaries for three years (until now). The reason was an enigma for me, but now it is no more – with an understanding that relations with narcissist last until the last breath.
    No more questions, no more hanging ends and recurrent thoughts.
    Thank you, HG. Absolutely priceless work you do!

    The main problem in the groups, to my mind, – they operate on the very limited knowledge basis of ‘normal’ man thinking. Same as normal expectations from a narcissist hurt, normal thinking has no explanatory potential. All the “why?” are left on their places.
    And they go circles of idle talk around their life stories.
    ‘Let’s hate together now!’
    Does it help to understand?
    To move on?
    To go from emotions to thinking?..
    Yes they create the opportunity to talk out the pain, the emotions, to be understood and gain some psychiatric definitions about dearest arsehole – better than nothing, but evolution limits in such a places are evident.


    What I think can be a good idea – is to inform people in all that communities (including language communities) from time to time, to keep newbies coming from there to the best place. To increase the knowledge about the narcsite this way.

    Maybe to form “Tudor’s Angels” league for global enlightenment. To inform the world.

    1. Erin says:

      I must be very fortunate, because at my worst point I just curled up into the deeper recesses of myself and did not seek help from forums etc. I only started looking specifically into narcissism recently, and really only to help out a fellow target. It was all very interesting but this is the first blog I actually started following and commenting on. I am glad I was not subject to the treatment some other victims appear to have received on such pages!
      Honestly, though, a part of me is very curious to go “hunting”, to see if I can spot any frauds…It would be quite fun, in a way!

      Confession time: I don’t think I’m an empath, I’m too lazy and selfish. I’m probably just normal…I really hope I’m not a narcissist, but I can’t rule it out.

      1. Erin says:

        I wish I could edit comments! That last part was linked to Fiona’s post.

    2. dickforlong says:

      I see other forums as an opportunity to be led here. Which is what happened for me.

      I was most annoyed with the encouraged laundry list of transgressions. I don’t want to read – and then I said and then he said and he did and I did – detailed accounts of every word spoken and transgression exacted. It didn’t help me. And there was a distinct lack of strength and healing. I also see the hilarious side to some painful years of living with narcs. Most contributors treated my sense of humor as my dismissing them or making light of their situation.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Indeed. People are welcome to share their experiences because to do so is cathartic too many. Further, if that is done to seek an understanding of what has happened so one can learn from it and avoid it, such disclosure makes sense. I have seen in other places that they just become electronic journals of “he did this, then that” each and every day alongside general narc bashing – repeatedly engaging in these two behaviours extensively is to go around in circles and make no progress. It is to the credit of the vast majority who post here that they do not engage in such behaviours.

      2. Sarabella says:

        In fairness, this is more noticeable in the beginning stages and then also on bad forums. But in the beginning and if the narc is still in one’s life, it seems that that behavior is the only way to deal with the CD and gaslighting. It is a way to try to organize reality and to get to the truth while in the meantime, you are being called crazy and pushed all over the place. I did it as a way to cling to what I knew to be what he happened while he was trying to reorganize the truth. It was important and a crucial step for me. So much that in one of the very last times we spoke, he tried to change reality again and I swiftly said, “stop lying! ” Before, I would have gotten confused and then gone to a forum to write out the sequence of events while I tried to convince myself of what I knew was true was true.

      3. dickforlong says:


        Lest you think me too well… I have indeed done the laundry list… To the point of getting on my own nerves. But I want to understand why??? all I saw on the sites was a like response and no understanding. SOMETIMES almost like they were competing with one another.

        It pretty much ended with stay strong girlfriend and go NC.

        Admittedly I visited very few sites and contributed to none.

        I appreciate contributor experiences and have seen myself in their honesty. HG’s response makes all the difference. He gives the understanding and the why. It turns this site into one that facilitates healing. I trust him most BECAUSE he is not invested in my ability to use the tools he provides and because he is the narc.

  15. Bibi says:

    Very useful info!

    I find Mid-Rangers extremely difficult to identify. Unless I am very close to them I remain on the fence half the time. Plus, I don’t like to just assume everyone with a haughty pretense is a narcissist.

    There is one individual I follow and I have wondered if she is a narc. Some of the shallow observations I have are that she is always dressed in designer clothes, hair done, makeup, lots of expensive jewelry. She also has a lot of photos of herself in expensive restaurants and pics of herself on trips, on boats, etc.

    She mentioned the fancy car she drives at one point and what her earnings were per year and that she used to drive an even more expensive car than the one she has now.

    These might not be an issue–just someone insecure trying to ‘prove’ her worth via materialism, except she is also a die-hard Trump supporter and if anyone criticizes him she will delete you from her group.

    I just find it ironic that someone with a blog on narcissism would not see that this Orange Orangutan in Office is very much one himself.

    I don’t want to jump the gun and immediately assume, but part of why I still follow her is because I am just curious if she’s gonna snap.

    I could be very wrong, however. I don’t presume to know anyone without real world interaction.

    Yet it is curious.

    1. Antifragile says:

      “die-hard Trump supporter” – interesting, I see a tendency that narcs like each others ideas and support.
      Trump is an example. My narc supported him.

      1. Mess says:

        My recent narc is very intelligent. He hates Trump, and in one Facebook post even referred to him as a narcissist. I don’t think my narc is aware of what terms like narcissist really or fully mean. I think that might be cultural as mental health isn’t discussed as openly in his culture, plus English isn’t his first language. I think he knows it is something not looked on favorably. I don’t know what he thinks it means, but I am pretty sure he doesn’t realize that he and Trump are way more alike than he knows.

      2. Bibi says:

        There are many liberal narcs. Harvey Weinstein gave donations to the Democratic party. My gay guy narc was to the far Left, but this was to show what a ”good person’ he was. He regularly used to say how Trump was a ‘horrible man.’

        I also knew a somatic who was a die-hard liberal, in support of minority groups and women, etc. but he used women like dishrags as he got them pregnant and cheated on all of them.

    2. narc affair says:

      My narcs the same hes got rid of anyone or anything that is anti trump. I dont bother telling him how much i hate trump bc its his opinion but i fkn hate trump. I cannot wait til hes no longer prez. That being said i refuse to get in conflict over trump with anyone. Each to their own. I do find my narcs narciness comes out whenever he talks about him.

      1. Windstorm2 says:

        Narc Affair
        There are many liberal narcs who hate Trump. It seems to me from the narcs i know, that the smarter narcs tend to be very disdainful and dismissive of other narcs, while the lessers and lower midrange are more likely to think highly of them.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Largely I think that it is accurate.

      2. narc affair says:

        Hi windstorm…im sure theres many liberal narcs as well. Im not sure how to classify my narc bc he doesnt seem to fit into any one area. Hes definitely not an elite but i do wonder about a lesser greater bc hes very aware of what hes doing and has hinted at it. Hes even brought up the topic of narcissism. Its very confusing. Hes notba midranger bc he does not do pity parties at all.
        He told me he wont be watching the nfl today bc of the national anthem incident.

      3. Windstorm2 says:

        Narc Affair
        That what I think mine is as well – a lesser greater.

      4. Dimitrios Gazis says:

        Isn’t Hillary the very definition of a Mid-Range? Not being political here.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Wait and see.

  16. One of the best things I got out of one of the narc support groups on Facebook was that I stumbled upon HG’s blog when someone posted about him. I’ve since stopped frequenting that support forum (for many of the reasons stated in the article above) but stayed here.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      HG approves. I like the way you told this.

      1. Thank you

    2. Susan Kay says:


  17. narc affair says:

    Boy oh boy can i relate to this…
    Ive learned the hard way that just bc someone presents as a “victim” doesnt mean they are. They can be a victim narc who isnt aware they are or a greater presenting as a victim. I think most cases its an individual that isnt aware they are a midrange victim narc and bounce from relationship to relationship oblivious to the fact they are the common denominator why their relationships are failing. You can come across these individuals on any support type forum.
    I met someone like this and have learned the hard way. At the beginning we had a lot in common having suffered narc abuse. I opened up to her and she was supportive and did offer some good advice but something started to be evident as time went on and that was her wanting to become a ” renowned narc life coach”. At the time i thought thats great to want to help people but it was becoming more and more clear it was more of a business standpoint than one of support. Slowly i could see her narc traits come out and i started to detach. After not talking for a week i found myself blocked on social media with no explanation. Who does that to somebody? Someone with issues thats who. It hurt me but it was also an ah ha moment where time was the telling factor. Im glad to be free of such a person but it makes me so very leary as to who i confide in in the future. A lot of these so called coaches are people not yet healed and in need of counselling themselves. They have no credentials either. Beware!

    Another experience was on a forum i still frequent. Its a great forum but ive sensed there could be narc activity behind the scenes. A couple times ive tried to set up off forum support chat and my posts have been deleted with no explanation. I cant figure out why and asked with no answer. The only reason i can figure is insecurity that im taking away members which was definitely not my intent. It was disappointing bc i hold that forum in high regard and was quite surprised by that.

    Beware… just bc its a support group you have to remember theres a mix of people and some can be unknowing narcs, different stages of healing and angry, bad advice being given and more importantly just be careful who you trust.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      All valid points, thanks NA.

    2. Mess says:

      What about people in admin positions in such groups, who contact you via inbox, and who throw out references to your energy all the time and accuse you of negative energy if they don’t like it when you politely disagree with the advice they are giving you even when you didn’t ask for it. Some self proclaimed empaths do that. It makes me wonder about them. It seems like such a manipulative thing to say – and passive aggressive since no one can produce their energy for inspection and evaluation.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Such behaviour is a red flag.

  18. Fiona says:

    I have a few empath traits but I have realized that I am also a narcissist

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Then you are not a narcissist.

      1. Fiona says:

        I am a psychologist told me I scored high on narcissism after doing the diagnostic tests. I have empath traits because my unstable mother fashioned me into a need meeting object where I had to function as a therapist and prop her up – my heart was never in it though I only did it as a survival strategy.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You may have scored high on narcissism but if you have empathic traits also you are not a narcissist. You are probably highly narcissistic.

      2. Fiona says:

        Dear HG…have you written about how being highly narcissistic is different from being a narcissist. Can you post the link to the article. Thank you.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I haven’t, but the key distinguishing factor is that such an individual will have some empathic traits.

    2. Mona says:

      Fiona, sometimes empathic people “adopt” the behaviour of their parents, because they do not know another way. They learnt it, but it is not natural. They do it unaware. For example I had to learn how to apologise in a right way as an adult. All the time before I copied the kind of apologies that my mother used. I used all the narcissistic phrases: “I apologise, if you feel hurt.” instead of “I apologise that I hurt you.” I really wanted to apologise, but I did not recognise, that my apology was narcissistic. Maybe you show a lot of narcissistic behaviour, but as long as you doubt about your own behaviour, you are not a full blown narcissist. Maybe you have a lot of narcissistic traits but there are still the other ones…and maybe there are more empathic traits than the therapist could identify.

  19. cc says:


  20. gabbanzobean says:

    “The Mid Range Narcissist genuinely believes that he or she is a good person, a decent person , an empathic person.”

    I know the article in question is about support forums but this quote above, word for word is EXACTLY how my mid ranger thinks and acts!!!

    “It is my empathy that prevents me from blocking you, dismissing you, and never talking to you again”

    (insert eye roll here)

    1. Catherine says:

      I recognise this Gab, the pity play and the victim mentality of my ex. I think he must’ve been a Mid-Ranger as well. Our relationship ended with him physically abusing me and a few days later he sent me a text message that still astounds me:

      “Things are as they are between us now. I told you before what would happen if you go behind my back. I don’t judge you. You chose this.”

      That’s first of all a threat, he hit me and I deserved it. But he’s not to blame, he’s not judging me in any way, he’s innocent and a victim and I am to blame for acting out of my free will. Needless to say, I never went behind his back.

      And the more I reread old messages which looked friendly enough on the surface I saw these same patterns beneath, threats and not being accountable for them. Texting with him was like a bloody mine field. No wonder my stomach hurt all the time.

  21. Fiona says:

    Mark Smith the Family Tree guy blocked me because I made comment about his constant pity seeking and his insistence on being perceived as a helpless/innocent babe in the woods.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are not the only person to have observed that.

      1. Indy says:

        I can second that statement! The amount of pity seeking and excessive playing victim speaks loudly. Not someone I’d recommend. Not stable enough to keep his own issues out of his work. Lots of transference going on in that forum. Besides, his wife plagerized HG! 🙄

  22. J says:

    HG, this why I’m very antisocial when it comes to forums and social media. There’s something you’ve been missing, and in my experiences it’s very important.
    It’s the female victim narcissist. They’re always low functioning. They may have Real physical ailments, but they milk it to the ends of the earth. Sometimes (most times) they cause these ailments through their own neglect and desire for attention.
    They all play helpless expecting everything done for them. They use their helplessness to take advantage and abuse the ones around them. They can beat their children without a second thought, but mostly their abuse is emotional. They guilt men into being their caretakers and emotionally starve them.
    When the men finally pack up the kids and try to get the hell out, these men are suddenly labeled abusive and the narcissist plays her victim hood to the T.
    I always assume about 1/2 the women crying about being left by the narcissist male are actually narcissists themselves. You never know online!
    The female of your kind are way more damaging and dangerous than the men. They are different, too.
    Something to look into, maybe?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you for your observations. It is accurate to state that there are those who claim to be the victim of a narcissist, when they are the narcissist themselves and I have observed this on numerous occasions, although suggesting is around 50% is rather high. I would not suggest that the female or male narcissist is more dangerous than the other, both are dangerous.

      1. J says:

        I lean high on the numbers, because an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
        I believe the women are more dangerous, because they are usually the root cause to these children growing up with personality disorders.
        I love your writings, and there’s a lot of things left unsaid everywhere about the women.

        Having my dogs and my horse killed as a child just to torture me. Knowing she killed her own narcissist mother for the money. My step monster.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thanks for sharing your observations J, I suspect forthcoming works will address some of these matters.

    2. Witch says:

      Damn, well you look at statistics, a history book, global news, everything and your honest conclusion is that the females are MORE dangerous in any kind…
      Okay then…

      1. Witch,

        I think Js comment was to point out the female narc is more dangerous because females are generally the caretakers of children.

        Even courts will give weight to the female in custody cases more often then the male.

        The female will accuse the male of being the abusive one, and will even coach the children to recall “abusive” behavior on the fathers part. In most jurisdictions, mental and emotional abuse are not even considered, period.

        This leaves the narc female free to use and abuse the children, and use them as pawns in their control/abuse of the father.

        One philosophy site that I go on is about 97% male, and abusive women is a topic that comes up a lot. The host of the site does say do not have sex with anyone you wouldn’t want to parent your child. However, if you don’t know what a narcissist is, you may become entangled while you are in the golden period, and then bound to a narc female because of the children.

        I can’t think of a way to make a narcissist without at least one parent actively abusing while the other parent protects the child ineffectively or not at all.

        The female parent is able to do the most damage, as she will have charge and control over the child or children for the most time. The mother is also charged biologically with proper bonding, soothing and protection. If the mother does not bond with the child, or abandons the child, frustrating and terrifying him when this is the time he should be the center of the mothers world, and to become confident in establishing a separate identity, the damage that causes will manifest in some type of personality disorder. Of course, this will be just the beginning of the abuse and/or neglect.

        While an adult maybe damaged by interacting with a narcissist, they will have resources a child will not be able to call upon. A child WILL BE DAMAGED, and has NO RESOURCES of his own to protect himself, he is completely at the mercy of the narc.

        When it comes to children, the female narcissist is by far the most dangerous.

        I hope I have expanded on Js subject enough for you to see where they are coming from. I would consider J an ACON from the examples of the treatment meted out, even if from a stepmother, so I really can understand why J would be so concerned.
        It is neither unreasonable nor sexist.
        It is something I’m concerned about, too.


      2. Brian says:

        persephone you understand the issues very well!

      3. Windstorm2 says:

        I agree with what you say about narc mothers. I would just add that I know narcissists who neither of their parents were narcs. Both parents were loving and kind and did their best, still one of their children became a narc. There is definitely a genetic component. It’s not always the result of abuse.

  23. Catherine says:

    No, no, no! I’ll stay here. I do find your blog honest, even if that’s a trait not readily associated with narcissists. The articles are helpful and logically informative. Above all HG I love your writing, that’s what gets me every time. You have a way with words that is tantalising and evocative at the same time, and in every walk of life the written word for me speaks louder than.. well.. any other words. You’re doing a great job, and your blog is also a marvellous forum for us, for the survivors or victims of abuse and I find comfort in reading and interacting with people here. I haven’t even been at other forums like these. I did do a stupid consultation once before I found this site, but that’s all. I’m here and I’m in therapy. That’s a enough for me.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

    2. Fiona says:

      Malignant narcissism is a psychological syndrome comprising an extreme mix of narcissism, antisocial personality disorder, aggression, and sadism. Narcissistic personality disorder is found in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV-TR), while malignant narcissism is not.

      This explains it Narcissism that is malignant and narcissism that is benign. Everyone has narcissistic traits not those with a disorder have a disease of it.

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