Never Mirror The Narcissist


It is often stated that you should mirror the narcissist.

That is wrong. Such an act is contrary to your interests.

Those who make such a suggestion are wrong and evidencing their lack of understanding about our kind.

Why should you never mirror us? Let’s examine some examples.

Take for example word salad. If we engage in a word salad whereby you cannot follow the logic of what we are saying, we are doing this because it enables us to draw fuel from your frustrated, hurt and annoyed responses. You are a truth seeker and therefore, not knowing what we are, you continue to try to break through this word salad and get us to make sense, get us to see sense and toss the salad aside. We do not. We continue with it as it is gaining fuel for us and ensuring that we are rejecting the relevant (perceived) attack against us so that our superiority is maintained. The chief components of our manipulations are either

  1. Gain Pure Fuel – this is where there is no challenge or wounding;
  2. Gain fuel and assert our superiority – this in instances where you are providing us with challenge fuel. We are not wounded BUT you are challenging our superiority in some way and therefore we must respond in a way which makes you back down and enables us to assert our superiority once again;
  3. Gain fuel because you have wounded us, so this fuel heals the wound.

Accordingly, in a particular interaction with you we have utilised the manipulation that is a word salad. You decide to mirror us and respond with a word salad of your own.  Let us assume that you manage to do this without providing us any fuel with it – difficult, but you may be able to achieve it. These are the consequences.

  1. You will wound us. This is because you are not providing us with any fuel and you are noticeably mirroring us which we will perceive as you mocking us. This will wound us. You may think ‘that’s good, so why not do it?’  – the following points explain why you ought not to.
  2. This will cause an ignition of fury, most likely with the Lesser or Mid Range Narcissist and possibly with the Greater also. We may well have been using the word salad manipulation in the context of a Challenge Fuel situation. There was no ignition of fury then. There is now.
  3. The ignition of fury will result in a different manipulation being used against you. You have nullified the word salad but all we do is shift to a different manipulation.
  4. The ignition of fury will mean that this alternative manipulation will be an escalation. Given the circumstances this means that you are increasing your risk of violence being used against your person or your property. All schools of narcissist may well apply that against you in that moment. The Greater may control the fury so that you are punished at a later juncture, when you are least expecting this to happen and this will occur with malice. You have just increased the pain that will follow.
  5. You have signalled to the narcissist that you are trying to manipulate the narcissist. Predictably enough, this will not sit well with us. This will mean that we will now increase our efforts to exert control over you. Since you are in devaluation already, this devaluation will continue and will be increased to ensure that you are ‘brought to heel’.
  6. Your use of word salad will be used against you – we will bring it up against you in future instances to demonstrate that you do not know what you are talking about, we will tell other people about this behaviour and smear you in that regard, we may well use it as evidence with regard to some form of manipulation against you.
  7. The Greater Narcissist will realise that you are ‘on to us’ and therefore a careful mental note will be made about that fact. This means that alternative methods of manipulation will be used against you and you will be punished for your  behaviour. You have also tipped us off.
  8. You will not be in a position to keep the mirroring up for long without providing us with fuel. Although you have wounded us, when you start providing us with fuel again, this will address the wound that you have created, thus the mirroring has proven pointless and you have also risked the points raised above. It is very hard for a person to stop themselves from giving us fuel when there is a face to face interaction. You have to control what you say, how you say it, your body language, the look in your eyes and your facial expressions. That is difficult and often you do certain things unconsciously that will provide us with fuel. Accordingly, you cannot go for long in a face to face situation without providing us with fuel.
  9. You are hampered by the fact that you are honest, decent and usually consistent in your behaviours. Compare this with our kind where we operate with no sense of remorse, no guilt and no conscience. Guilt will start to creep in to what you are doing, pity, disgust with yourself for dropping to our level and so forth and this will have an adverse impact on you and your ability to mirror us.

What about other instances of mirroring us?

If we are shouting at you and you do the same back to us, all you are doing is provide us with fuel and that suits us perfectly well. Further, we can use your fierce temper against you, for instance by suddenly switching so that we wish to shield the children from mummy’s nasty temper. This shift in manipulation to triangulation is likely to catch you off-guard so that you feel guilty for doing this, feeling a need to explain the truth to the children about what has happened and then being pinned down by your honesty and decency because you do not want to drag the children into it. We do not care if we do, needs must.

If you try to triangulate us with someone else, we see through it. We will then use that as evidence of you being flirtatious, that you are having an affair, that you are selfish and self-absorbed. We will use this to smear you, attack you with an alternative manipulation  – for instance the Lesser Narcissist may well beat you up on the basis of your wounding behaviour. The Mid Range Narcissist may also physically attack you or will go around delivering Pity Plays as he talks about the fact you behaved like a slut at the party.

If you try to engage in blame-shifting, this will not work because this just amounts to a further attack against us and therefore by repeatedly trying to place the blame at our door you will either be wounding us or issuing challenge fuel. We are configured never to accept blame (unless there is a clear benefit in doing so) and therefore our narcissism will just defend us against this in the usual fashion, accordingly the mirroring will be ineffective.

There is one slight exception to this rule against mirroring us and this relates to absent silent treatments. If you mirror our behaviour by ignoring us also because you want to cause us to get in contact with you and stop the silent treatment then all you need to do is ignore us also. You do of course run the risk of being subjected to an alternative manipulation, however the difference is that with the absent silent treatment we will not be with you when we are wounded by you failing to respond to the silent treatment. Accordingly, we are more likely to seek fuel from a different appliance and then contact you thereafter and our fury will no longer be ignited. Of course, you may want the relative calm of an absent silent treatment and if that is the case then you ought not to mirror and instead provide some messages which would provide fuel. This will maintain the absent silent treatment.

With each manipulation, if you try to mirror it, it will backfire against you because we will see through it (and dependent on the school of narcissist this will always happen, it just depends how quickly this will occur) and there will be the consequences that I have described above. This mirroring is not in your best interests. Even if you think you will achieve some kind of victory by wounding us, it will only result in a bad outcome for you thereafter because we are different creatures.

Instead of mirroring our manipulations you ought to focus on

  1. Establishing and maintaining no contact;
  2. Being able to recognise the various manipulations that we deploy;
  3. Your increased knowledge will reduce the impact of the manipulation on you;
  4. Following the methods set out in ‘Escape’ which will enable you to deal with these manipulations in a way which will benefit you and not cause you additional problems which occur if you mirror us.

Do not mirror us. Your mirror will shatter first.


123 thoughts on “Never Mirror The Narcissist

  1. kelly Mangano says:

    Based on your narcissistic rant .. you’ve probably never entered into a relationship with someone with borderline personality disorder .. or another narcissist ? I think in those cases , all bets are off .. you won’t “win” .. you can’t .. just will , along with us , drown in our own toxic soup ..

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Of course I win, I always win,

  2. s.s. says:

    it totally depends…of course the things you mentioned should not be done by a rookie but how about someone that has “watched the devil in the eyes”?
    after having two narc parents as a coping mechanism i learned from a very young age how to respond, my chose was the “fight” mode, how to beat them at their game…
    another bonus of dealing with full blown narc was how to read people even with their slightest facial change so i learned pretty fast narc weakness, which is their self esteem, don’t waste your time with reasoning or rambling about how they hurt you…when they start rambling salad mode (lol) just push and push this button untill they get crippled…
    i ended up in relationships with narc without being aware why, and i would start my mind games only when the other person would push my triggering buttons, and surprise, when my buttons are pushed i get competitive and i totally shut down my feelings, and whatever the other person tells me trying to hurt me i just simply don’t care (it became a game in those moments a game i felt the urge to win no matter what)…and since i cope with fight i start showing narc traits which normally i do not have…and the narc partner starts showing simptoms of borderline (when you strip them of their false image this is what you are left with)…insecure and begging not to leave.
    i had always a tendency to disregard whatever they say knowing it’s full of crap and paying attention to the slightest details (on a subconcious level )not to feed their ego or when they say something nasty just not to care…
    if you want to take it to another level i will give you an example of how easy it is to make them puppets…most of the narcs think they are smart and always trying to up their game with thigs they think you slipped. my ex would get really angry when i would ask him about my suspicions regarding cheating so i would get angrier and i would realise that he does not even deserve this from me and i kept in mind to tell him that this gives him away when he cheats (getting angry) it was fine him knowing that because i had a whole chapter of things that give away a liar so that next time he would not get angry so i can stay more focused on the situation..and of course it worked,it was actually funny coming up with new ideas and testing them on him, and the funniest part was him thinking “oh, I am so playing her”…they always think they are getting notes and outsmart the other person…
    i repeat, this is not for rookies who could get really hurt in the process or people that had other coping mechanisms. when you have this type of coping mechanism and fucked up parents you learn how to watch your back and become like a crap detector ninja…
    anyway…the end point is that i was doing this before i was educated about cluster that i know, i would never bother again with nc which i also encourage others not to do.

  3. Super Empath says:

    I didn’t give my stupid narc the chance to disengage, put me on a shelf, or move me to whatever level!

    I told him everything I knew he had done right to his face, said we WERE DIVORCING and that my announcement was not a discussion conversation, rather a mere fact. I told him I would allow him to file, so I didn’t have to serve him at work and embarrass him. I then blocked him from my phone as I didn’t want to hear anymore lies, excuses, gaslighting, and/or manipulating tactics. Oh, as an extra precaution, I put an asterisk in front of his number just in case I accidently butt dialed him.

    I expected his stupid @ss to leave the house pretty quick (as he loves the disappearing act by checking into hotels and staying there until I had gone completely mad, then always twisted the situation around to where I was the one apologizing for something I hadn’t even done), but for whatever reason this time he didn’t leave right away.

    Believe me I cursed a lot about it, but stayed on course and was a complete ghost. When he would finally come home I would disappear into the bedroom, lock the door and would only come out after he left the house to do whatever he was up to (I didn’t care, I was just glad he was gone). He was like a dark looming cloud was surrounding him and I could feel it, sense it and it made me sick. After 25-days of that treatment, he finally left the house and then 5-days later finally filed for divorce. Idiot tried to serve me, as I knew he would, but I already had my attorney lined-up with all the paperwork to squash it, so he wouldn’t get the satisfaction/fuel and I’m sure he was even more aggravated he wasted his money.

    He hasn’t seen my face nor my heard my voice since Oct 2nd (I have zero social media accounts so not issues there). I’ve had my attorney overload his attorney with all kinds of legal paperwork, along with an upcoming deposition for the documents he forged my name on. I’m only hoping he’s choking on his own madness by now. Our first court date is coming up in 2-weeks and I’m planning on riding with my attorneys and fully intend to not notice him, look at him, or give him any satisfaction I even recognize him. I will treat him like he’s a complete stranger, he will not even get a glance.

    This narc is ‘done’ messing around with my head. I want this to be swift, quick and plan to move several states away, so I will never even accidently run into him.

    Guys you can’t beat a narc because they don’t care. Everything they tell you is a lie and for the lies they do tell, trust me there are so many more you don’t even know about. They don’t love you, they don’t care for you, I mean how can they, they actually hate themselves and are just little insecure children.

    Just save yourself and get off the hamster wheel, life shouldn’t be a constant battle ground. Your home should be your sanctuary filled with love, peace and harmony.

    To a narc a relationship is just one big mind f@ck!!

  4. analise13 says:

    Wow. HG.
    Fantastic post. Very informative.

    The image actually made me laugh.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you.

  5. abrokenwing says:

    I have a great satisfaction knowing that I still managed to defeat my ex whilst sticking to my beliefs and not going down to his level.
    Why acting like someone you despise so much for doing the very same thing? Be above it.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Major moral fibre there ABW.

      1. K says:

        Shit. Everything I do is mostly instinct and, when I am pissed, my moral compass completely disappears. I never really thought about it until I came here. I just act on my instincts without thought.

        1. Windstorm2 says:

          Ha, ha K!
          That’s the opposite of me. I think everything to death without acting on it! 😝

          1. K says:

            Lately, I have been thinking about self defense mechanisms and NPD and how they develop differently in people. Instinct dictates more of my behavior than I realized and I am more aware of it now. I can see it very clearly.

    2. Jenna says:


      What school of narc were u entangled with? Do u have any kids w the narc? I believe it depends on these two main factors, and more. Since the lessers are violent, some pple react with agression, esp if they have kids with the narc, and if he is mistreating the kids. Kids are precious, and agression against anyone who mistreats kids is a natural reaction.

      I was w a mid-ranger so i did not act w agression either. Had there been kids involved, i may have. Idk.

      1. abrokenwing says:

        Hi Jenna,

        1. Recent ex elite mid-ranger ; nex i have mentioned in my post I believe to be somatic mid- ranger base on what I learned here ( although he is also very knowledgeable).

        2. Two kids

        3 . I recognise that my experiences are not as bad as many others here . I have never experienced aggression or physical violence from the man I was seeing.

        ‘aggression against anyone who mistreats kids is a natural reaction ‘.

        The natural reaction to protect children in a situation when they are being mistreated would be calling the police and separate if possible.
        I can imagine people who are with lessers face lots of challenges but reacting with aggression to aggression ( unless this is a life threatening situation) especially with someone so unpredictable like a Lesser is in my opinion a bad idea. It’s dangerous.
        You don’t want your children to witness abusive behaviour. It’s damaging. You also avoid deliberate confrontations and attempts to provoke you. It may result in a bad outcome for you and your children.

        1. Jenna says:

          Hi abw,

          Ty for ur reply.
          It must be challenging to have the narc as ur children’s father. I admire ur strength.

          Ur points are valid. I believe, most pple wud only react if the kids are at school or away for some time. Otherwise, they wud control themselves.

          It wud b ideal if police did all they could, but unfortunately that’s not always the case. Perhaps these pple have tried contacting the police and did not have desired results.

          I do try to look at different scenarios.

          “… someone so unpredictable like a Lesser is in my opinion a bad idea. It’s dangerous.”
          So very true.

          Ur viewpoint is v sound. Ty for sharing.

  6. Sandra says:

    @ X (because no reply button)

    Your post absolutely touched me and your English is fine.

    I’ve never been discarded and my corrective devaluations have only ever been subtle and covert. In my many attempts at escape I have always pointed out that I’m nothing special and easily replaced. He has never in five years agreed to cessation but I’m aware he does try to line up a contingency source if I break free.

    Somehow he does compartmentalize me as unique. I knew this before I ever found HG Tudor. I don’t discount that he feels superior to me, but he admires me enough to seek my adulation over others and is really rather vexed by his self sabotaging behaviors that have damaged that image of him I reflected. He has seen me ruthlessly cut people out of my life for lesser offenses. Getting back in my good graces is potent fuel because it is makes him the exception.

    But where to go from there? An apology is not words fired off in an email as he sits on the toilet…an apology is changed behavior. Clearly that’s not happening.

    He knows I know something. But still he hoovers, hoping he is still Special too.

    1. Deepsigh says:

      @ X ….because no reply button….

      “That was goooooood!” Game changer….nice! In the end it really is their loss! But as the Mr. Tudor has emphasized….they can not be changed by US! Damit! Believe me if I had a magic wand that could give them everything they are missing…..I would zap each and everyone of them with a conscience and empathy and there would probably be wailing and nashing of teeth all over the world as they all fell to their knees in crying and repentance and they would run and grab the people they have hurt and beg for forgiveness and US being empaths….would welcome them with open arms! Okayyyyy I might have just gone a little far with my imagination! Lol I better tone it down!

  7. JenniferJ says:

    Thank you HG, for once again giving us helpful practical advice.
    Since becoming aware of what narcissists are, and how and why they use their manipulation tactics, I’m finding them easier to detect. I also find that they are EVERYWHERE. It is literally impossible to have “no contact” with them in general. They could be a boss or colleague at work, the person you sit next to on the train, a fellow member of a sporting or social club, an acquaintance or relative you need to interact with, a neighbour, etc … and the list goes on. In my case it is also my mother and sister.
    I have accepted that I have no choice but to engage with narcissists in various situations, so rather than adopt a combatitive mindset, I find it more helpful to keep developing immunity from their tactics. If I detect that a work colleague is triangulating for example, I will either ignore, play along and make a mental note, or adapt my behaviour as necessary to avoid the mindgames. Many times, I have found that narcissists will “test” you to see how much they can get away with or how far they can push or control you. In most cases, it requires a combination of awareness, gray rock and unemotional push-back to resist these tests. While I don’t try to mirror the narcissist, I will sometimes deliberately give fuel in certain situations when this would help me to either avoid further manipulation or appease the “fury” and steer things towards a more mutually beneficial outcome. I guess I have had many years practice with my close family members to know that “fighting back” doesn’t end well.
    Whatever the case may be, dealing with these people is a lot like dealing with spoilt and selfish children. You really do have to keep calm and mindful and stay “above” the situation, which is easier said than done, but possible with greater awareness.
    In many cases, empaths have the upper hand as long as they are aware and don’t succumb to the emotional warfare. Most narcissists are low on real intuitive sensitivity, self-regulation and creativity. They don’t seem to have much capacity for self-improvement through psychological inner questioning or mindful behaviour. An empath can use these “weaknesses” of a narcissist to protect him or herself when “no contact” isn’t possible.

  8. Medusa says:

    HG, you ask someone else above because he has not blocked it … it’s not better to simply ignore it, I have the feeling that the blockade gives a negative fuel, is that correct? I think that in the blockade, the subliminal message that is transmitted is that the narci has so much power that we will not resist its messages if we do not block it, what do you think?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I understand your thinking but

      1. Blocking wounds the narcissist ; and
      2. More importantly, you are completely shutting down that avenue by which a hoover can occur. If you cannot receive the hoover/the message then your emotional thinking has nothing to latch onto. If you receive the message and it is sat there, your emotional thinking attaches to it and increases the risk you will do something contrary to your interests.

      I understand you state your resolve now that you will not look or respond and I believe you as your logic now is being heeded and applied. However, when it happens, your emotional thinking rises and may cause a different outcome. Why risk that?

      1. gabbanzobean says:

        If the narcissist is ignoring us, why would blocking him cause wounding? He has 2,000 friends on Facebook, he probably would not even notice. I am not trying to make excuses nor do I mean to challenge you but I just do not understand how us blocking you (if you were to even notice) would wound you? Especially if you are shelving/ignoring us? Do you know what I mean?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Entitlement. You are telling us we cannot do something – you are not allowed to do this. This of course assumes the narcissist notices. If you are being ignored, we will not see it and therefore there will be no wounding.

  9. geyserempath says:

    Narc Affair: Thank you so much for the hugs, I really appreciate it and hugs back to you as well. No worries, as nothing you said came across as hurtful as I am sure my fuel potency got stale for him. I am happy for you that you are off the shelf currently…just be careful because he will hurt you again. It’s all a dance and we are either on or off the dancecard. At least I know what I am dealing with now. I can’t forget him, but these articles help to ground me and come back to reality regarding my emotions. I am very thankful I found HG and all of you who are very supportive and helpful and loving. THANK YOU!!!

    1. narc affair says:

      Hi geyserempath…ty for your reply and youre right i need to be very careful. My being off the shelf definitely isnt a celebration or something im proud of bc i know im being used and it doesnt feel good in that respect. Its a cycle and will always be a cycle until i jump off the merry go round.
      I was reading your reply to deepsigh about emotional emails and my narcs carbon copy where when id reach the end of my rope and disengage, via an email usually, hed reply back with all the love and supportive words along with reassurances but it always went back to the same or something new.
      Your new situation where hes not replying now is a huge fear of mine but it can definitely happen. Do you think he disengaged ans not told you? Im really sorry youre having to deal with the feelings surrounding this. Its very hurtful and upsetting. Do you think youll block him at any point? Maybe blocking would alleviate the pressures and disappointments of him not contacting you? All the best 💓

      1. geyserempath says:

        Narc Affair: HG just finished a brilliant article entitled “The IPSS: Shelved or Disengaged” and if I read that correctly, I am shelved not disengaged from as I am not blocked on phone, email, or on social media. If I email him regarding an opinion or ribbing him on his football team, he will reply. His replies are always fun spirited, include a winky face or smiley face, just no longer signs off with my pet name. I meet him every Saturday for a beer and his conversation is pleasant and funny. Recently the “benefits” have been cut off, and he hasn’t called me (he used to call every week and then it became once a week for a few weeks in a row, now no calls for 2 months), the ignoring on FB, loss of pet name, heralds to me the introduction of a new shiny Candidate IPSS. FB is an issue for me because even when he was involved with several NISSs on there, he still liked my stuff, now suddenly nothing. Control issue? Perhaps because he knows his validation means a lot to me and in the past when FB was brought up (when he started befriending lots of strange women), he scoffed and trivialized it because he knew I was jealous. Perhaps I am being punished, but feel it is more to do with him being busy with NISSs there and pursuing the NISS coworker who might be a new Candidate IPSS. I cannot block him. I don’t want him as a boyfriend, I just want to be treated as well as he seems to treat his other NISSs.
        I wish you only success in whatever you want from your N. We are all here for you as you work your way through this. Warm HUGS!!

      2. X says:

        It is true, that some narcissists can be very smart especially the Greater Elite kind, but please don’t underestimate a particular kind of Empaths – always one step ahead, as can sense “it” all, and usually are right with their intuition; just sitting there quietly and watching/and “feeling” it, memorizing/making (sad) mental notes. However, the Greater kind is “emotionally” (no surprise) much stronger, and the Empath has to learn to control the heart and use the smart brain instead. It is a sad “game” not worth playing, and even the narcissist of the smartest kind, will one day meet this special and unbelievable smart Empath/the game changer, and deep, deep down, yes, the narcissists who meet/and then have lost this game changer will regret it but will never admit it. But once the years and/or months pass by, it becomes harder even for them to lie to themselves. Because they are highly intelligent, they know. And this has nothing to do with fuel – as I said, some are too smart not to know what they have lost. It shows in the respect they finally have for this Empath, and knowing they have lost someone special, the “complete package” and that life passes by and it doesn’t matter how many more women they continue to seduce, these smart narcissists will be miserable and live/and most likely die alone – and it doesn’t matter how hard they try, they will never forget this one-in-a-lifetime Empath. Even the smartest narcissist, is no match for this particular kind of Empath. But then, who cares? No one is the winner. At the end, both have lost.

        (Please excuse my English, and no reply needed. As I said. It is sad. All of this. Nothing more. Nothing less).

      3. narc affair says:

        Hi geyserempath…ty thats so sweet! We all are on our own journeys and its great to be sounding boards for each other and support.
        I had seen that blog and will go read it! I didnt realise you were still meeting up with your narc. The difficult thing about being shelved is the position it puts you in. You either go along with it and feel horrible(living in limbo) or you confront it and risk loosing them or being even more devalued.
        In july i confronted my narc on our decreased intimacy and said id prefer to be just friends and i understood if he felt different bc relationships can change. I made it clear if we became only friends i didnt want any sexual talk, flirting etc bc it was too painful and confusing. Either we were lovers or we werent no back and forth. He assured me he still felt the same and gave a few reasons why it seemed different and a lot centered around me being on vacation and not being around as much but we still couldve been sexual online. Even when i was home we werent as much and i could sense the change. This has been going on now for about a year to two years. I suspect hes hooked up with an ex bc he had brought this woman up in a conversation which narcs love to tell on themselves. After i confronted him in july things went back to the way they were but around mid sept and oct the intimacy decreased again and i ignored it the best i could. Around november it picked up again. Its so hard to know whats going on behind the scenes and if we knew wed know why were being shelved and the changes to the relationship etc.
        We are appliances and are being used bottom line. It sucks. Its confusing until you focus on the fact youre part of a fuel matrix and youre one of probably many your narcs involved with. I keep reminding myself of this and it makes sense his flip flopping personality.
        The fact youd brought up the befriending of women on fb maybe he took that as a sign of controlling him and infriging on his freedom if youre nonintimate, idk. Maybe he felt you wanted more and by dropping the pet name he was establishing that he didnt want that? Its so many guessing games with these types. Thats pretty harsh ignoring you on fb and not something someone who cares about you would do.
        Can you take a break from facebook? I know its difficult to do but not seeing his likes or comments and looking at his fb is definitely painful.

  10. Noname says:

    The manipulation (mirroring, gaslighting, silent treatment, etc.) is an unhonest way to get what you want, because you can’t get it in an honest way.

    It is always a sign that something is really WRONG with a whole situation.

    Moreover, the mental games with a Narc always lead to nowhere, so no need to waste a time on them at all. There are a lot of interesting thing in this life to concentrate on.

  11. geyserempath says:

    Deep sigh: Thank you for the advice. When you wrote:

    emailing him only makes it worse and they enjoy that they are hurting you….and you are giving them fuel and it will only prolong the behavior…and make you look desperate which they love…

    You are so right and yes, the failure of them to respond hurts more. I will not email him.

    1. Deepsigh says:

      Your welcome! Sorry you are going through this…I honestly know how you feel because I have suffered so much from sending him heartfelt emails with no reply…so many times and it makes you feel invisable as if you do not exist! That’s the worst feeling! And honestly the email thing is a complete trap and once you start it….it can get very addictive and before you know it….you are emailing this man every thought you ever have….I wish I had never started it and to this day…I still battle with not sending him an email….NO LIE! It’s addictive! And I promise you….they read and cherish every drop of your misery…he will read your email…he just won’t respond….he takes and loves to take…but he will not give! It’s like doing something you are so tempted to do and then you feel so awful afterwards and wished you had not done it! I should have NEVER sent him all of those emails that he never responded too…but guess what? It’s too late….to late after you hit send! I truly feel for you and I know how you are feeling! Your not alone! Hang in there!

      1. gabbanzobean says:

        I too am guilty of sending heartfelt emotional emails. I also get no reply but I know he reads them. Ugggghhhhh. 🙁

        1. Deepsigh says:

          Yes I’m sorry you are and have experienced that….it’s really the most degrading thing…it’s like I was a glutton for punishment….and I just could not imagine that a human being could be so stubborn and in so much control of himself in not responding….and so many times in the past before we stopped communication….he would say to me….don’t stop sending me messages….he would say….I read all of your messages…..and I’m like huh? Well that’s funny because he never responded to them….! 😡 and when he did decide to call me which was entirely his choice and on his terms….he would say….yeah! I always read your messages….and he almost had like a gleeful sound in his voice as if it thrilled him that I was sending him emails! Like he got off on it! And everything would be ok and we would be communicating again by telephone because his choice and preference was to always call me….and then he would do or say or act in a way that upset me and I would confront him about it and how upset I was and tell him I’m not going to take his %#*+^%! And then he would give a sentence or two to deny his behavior and say I was wrong and then I would go into further confrontation and then…….SILENCE!!!!! And I would still be so angry I would send him emails and yeah…..! That’s why we never fought or argued because anytime I got upset and told him……a couple of denials and I wouldn’t accept it and ……SILENCE!!!!!!! He was not going to be confronted with his behavior at all!!!!! And once when I was trying to have a phone conversation about his behavior and something he said that got to me….and I was really telling him and all of a sudden he says!!!! Stop!!! Hold on !!! My head is dizzy!!! I gotta catch my myself feel as though I’m about to pass out! I was like….really!!! Are you okay and I was telling him to sit down on the ground and trying to help him through it and then he said….okay it’s better….and after that I was totally derailed and worried about him and forgot about being upset and then even ended up apologizing to him for upsetting him so bad that he got dizzy!!!!! Omg!!!! Serious manipulation!!! He did that another time too…when I was going to have a talk with him about the things I feared about him….and I messaged him telling him as much and I said after this conversation this will either make or break us…..and suddenly after not answering the phone after 3 calls….he picks up and says….hey….I can’t talk I have to get ready to fly to my folks cause my mom is in the hospital!!!!! And I was like wth! And he was like….did you hear me! My mom is having emergency surgery!!!! Yeah anyways!!! I have never met a person so avoidant of discussing issues or being confronted about his behavior! It’s like he feared to discuss his behavior or odd things he would say and do!!! He absolutely would not be confronted!!!!! Ugh! So yeah I sent swarms of emails of which I know he read and ignored on purpose! 🤦🏻‍♀️

          1. gabbanzobean says:

            Deep Sigh,
            They really operate from the same textbook I am starting to believe!

            It has gotten to the point where I just do not think I can believe anything he says. Like… is all lies! All of it! Lies. He could say “I stopped for a coffee at Starbucks this morning” and it is probably a lie.

            My favorite story that came to mind after he said he was going to call me but blew me off and did not call me was, “Well, my mother took my daughter to McDonald’s and there was an active shooter situation and the McDonald’s was on lockdown. They were very distraught and I had to go pick them up”.

            He likes to make shit up. I was DLS and met none of his friends. He used to say I would though. He said “I will tell everyone I knew you from way back when we were kids”.

            Me: “But you didn’t….won’t your friends know you made that up?”

            Him: “That depends on which friends we hang out with….”

            Oh I could write novels. LOL.

            But yeah back to the emails….I stopped sending him stuff. I even stopped the texts. My replies are minimal now, just like his.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Could write?!

            There should be no replies at all and he should be blocked. Why have you not done it?

          3. gabbanzobean says:

            Yes. “Could write”. I meant it in the past tense, not the present tense, as he ignores me.

            And to answer your question without typing some encyclopedic novel I will just say similar reasons why Jenna has not done it either.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            Perhaps I should kickstart your no contact for you.

          5. gabbanzobean says:

            How would you do that? Drive to his church and set his piano on fire? Sarcasm aside I really want to pursue your audio consult but I am a bit financially strapped at the moment. Can Jenna and I split the price for one? (insert thinking face emoji here)

          6. HG Tudor says:

            I am amenable to such a suggestion. You will have to see if your chum wishes to.

          7. gabbanzobean says:

            Amenable to setting his piano on fire? Or Jenna and I sharing a consult? Or both?

          8. HG Tudor says:


          9. gabbanzobean says:

            🤔 Well we know it’s $100 US for the audio consult.
            How much would it cost for setting the piano on fire?
            Then there’s the expenses in regard to travel related logistics too.

            Wouldnt the piano burning wound him or just give him fuel? Or do you not get fuel if we destroy something you love? Wait a minute you don’t love anything.

            OK I am confusing myself again.

            Have people hired you for Narc revenge?

            I will wait for Jenna‘s reply and sharing the consult fee.

          10. Narc Angel says:


            You Jenna and Garbanzobean

            Theres a 3-way I didnt want in my head but there it is.

          11. HG Tudor says:

            Not a thruway NA but a game of two halves. That should assist you!

          12. gabbanzobean says:

            Narc Angel,
            The thought sounds arousing yet repulsing. I am considering joining a monastery at this point. The fuel has been all fucked out of me already.

            I forget who it was….was it you or Narc Affair (too many NAs, LOL) that referred to me as super tanker of fuel? I am on empty these days.

          13. K says:

            You are a delectable narc treat; a yummy fuel cookie. Remember empaths are self-fueling.

          14. gabbanzobean says:

            I suppose you are right. At the moment I feel so tapped out of fuel though. I guess mister piano recital got sick of sugar cookies and wanted a chocolate chip ones instead. (replaced ice cream analogy with cookie analogy)

          15. K says:

            I do not think you are stale because you are an IPSS. You are still a fresh fuel cookie. I like the infamous ice cream/cookie analogy. I am a black and white/half moon cookie.

          16. gabbanzobean says:

            I feel like I am stale. And I do not get it. I was DLS but I was a long distance DLS. I really think he just got pissed off that I wanted more than he felt like giving.

            And the last girl before me, my predecessor, the one he claimed that he almost left his wife for. He said he got caught with her and he then had an “epiphany”, realized how much he loved his wife (eye roll) and ended it with the other girl, only to later tell me he still kept in touch because he “owed” her….I am willing to bet that she was exactly in the situation I was in with wanting more. The only difference was she was local and saw him way more often than I did.

            This is all what he told me. But seeing as how they all lie I am sure it went down way different. He probably deemed her way more stale since he interacted with her more AND she probably pushed more for more of a relationship than I was able to (being long distance).

            This is just my own interpretation of things since I will never know the truth unless I reach out to his wife OR the predecessor. I have access to their social media and can easily reach out to either of them. I go back and forth with it all the time.

            Anyway this has gotten quite long on a tangent. Yikes. LOL. Thanks for reading.

          17. K says:

            I understand that stale feeling; it feels terrible and I am sorry that you feel that way. It could be a corrective devaluation or disengagement. Narcs do not like push back. When is your consult with HG? Maybe he can help clarify the situation for you.

          18. gabbanzobean says:

            I had an email consult. And was told correcting Devaluation. That makes sense as I have not been blocked and I get a few occasional crumbs of comfort. For the most part I’m being ignored, a.k.a. shelved.


          19. K says:

            I had a feeling it was a C.D. and he was using an ST. Are you going to go no contact?

          20. K says:

            oops, a DLS.

          21. Deepsigh says:

            Wow! Lock down at Mc Donald’s….hahahahahaha! Sorry but when I read that…I literally busted out laughing!!!! Oh my gosh! They really are somewhat like children lol….it’s too bad we can’t spark them and put them in the naughty corner for being bad bad boys! Lol sorry just a little humor to lighten up this dark ass subject….but yes I must find that handbook they operate by and I must burn it! Ugh!!!!!! Yeah and like once I was with mine from the past….and he got upset because I told him….NO!!! And he had commanded me to do something…and I didn’t want to…so I told him NO! And he got this look on his face and he got super quiet and looking very sad and pouty and wouldn’t even look at me or talk to me and acted like he was in a daze all the while I kept patting him on the back and saying….you know you look really cute when you do this!!! And I could not stop smiling….like I don’t think he liked hat very much at all…but it was still in the golden period and so he held back….but you would have thought I shot his best friend or his dog! Anyways

          22. gabbanzobean says:

            Deep Sigh,
            Oh the stories of shit he has said would make you laugh, scratch your head quizzically and then make you roll your eyes and laugh some more. But yes, a lock down. In the McDonald’s.

            My 2nd favorite was when I called him once after a few months and he picked up the phone not knowing who it was. He then said his phone broke and he lost all his numbers. But here is the kicker. He lost all of the numbers he added to his phone AFTER February 2016. Which was the month that he started pursuing me! Oh the timing of the lost numbers!

            I could write a narc novel of the stuff he has said. Chapter 1 would be contradictions. Chapter 2 could be his psych analysis of me. Yes he was am amateur therapist. Chapter 3 could be how everything I said became sexual. Everything. The man was such a sexual fiend.
            Chapter 4 could be his excessive use of large vocabulary. Now do not get me wrong, I do love intelligence but some of the stuff he said….his theatrics were so over the top.

            Oh and he called me “kiddo”. I am 5 1/2 years YOUNGER. He also used variations to such as “kid”, “champ”, “sport”, “my child of the corn” and “darling girl”.

            Had enough yet? We seriously should sit over the fire, roast some marshmallows, and swap narc stories until the sun comes up.

            I hope some of that made you chuckle. I have way more hilarious narc moments. But good God do I also miss that piano recital turd. (I call him Piano recital because he plays piano for the church….hides behind his bullshit religious facade of Mr. Good Guy). I attribute him to a child playing in a piano recital. Jenna coined the nickname. Heh heh heh.

          23. Deepsigh says:

            OMG!!!!!! YOu are cracking me up! For real rolling here! That’s funny!!!!!! And you know what is even funnier ………they actually think we believe them!!!!!!! No that’s some good stuff right there! And I know as much as we hate to miss them and as bad as they truly are and perverted mine was too! But not in a funny way however! Actually pretty damn scary!!!!! I won’t elaborate as to not change the comical tone! But yeah we miss them! DAMIT!!!!!!!!!!! Maybe it is us that are the crazy ones! Like dear ol Patcy Cline would sing…..crazy…..crazy for feeling so lonely…..I’m crazy…..crazy for feeling so blueeeee…..and I’m crazy for lovinnnnnn YOUuuuuuuui! 🤪

          24. gabbanzobean says:

            Deep sigh,
            Perfectly appropriate song for a perfectly appropriate situation!!! Crazy indeed. I love that emoji. 🤪

            Well mine was definitely a sexual pervert….he was a cowardly mid ranger; not really scary. A majority of the time it was silent treatments and guilty pity plays.

          25. Deepsigh says:

            Yeah! Mine wasn’t of the funny variety @ all! @ all!!! But that being said he never hurt me….I escaped before that happened….he did speak of wanting to hurt me however! Yeah I believe he was of the Greater variety….very sullen and pretty intense! I thought i was intense before I met him….but his is way more intense! By the end of the relationship he went from the golden period of I love you! To I Fucking love you! Yeah stuff got pretty over my head and into some dark territory! I heeded his warning as he issued them verbally several times and I believed him! I wasn’t willing to gamble to call his bluff! Another line was….you know I don’t understand how I can love you and want to hurt you at the same time! Of course when he said this we were laying on the bed close together and I was so stunned that I couldn’t even process what had just been said to me! He didn’t do anything and I just laid there looking at him unable to speak or even think! I wasn’t sure what the hell I was getting myself into! I escaped the relationship….however I did miss him and email him to death and all of that….but it was I who ultimately broke up with him the very weekend he said that to me! He also got me a 300 dollar Tiffany bracelet which I loved and adored and I got him a gold one! We both kept our gifts we gave each other but….I broke it off with him that weekend! He did ask me back and asked me to forgive him as he had forgiven me of many wrongs! Well I finally responded to him and I tried to feel okay about him again….but I couldn’t let it go…I kept on pushing it and I wouldn’t meet him again….but then it still felt like a discard because he treated me that way and that is why I broke it off! I was still devastated and missed him because of the golden period! Yeah it was a mess! He did speak of the beast and how he would have to let it out and sit himself down on the bed and let the beast take over! Yeah my mind just kept going to an episode of 48 hrs and crime shows like that! I wasn’t sure what he was capable of so yeah….I even asked him if he was trying to run me off….he said nooooo way! And I was like hmmm….cause if you are you can just tell me and I’m gone….you don’t have to act like a serial killer and scare the hell out of me….I would totally leave you alone for less promise! But he denied that he was trying to run me away! But wth did he expect! I wasn’t willing to take that gamble!

          26. Deepsigh says:

            Yeah….he also told me over the phone one time after I broke up with him but still missed him and we talked….out of the blue….he said….my name and then he said….you know someday I’m going to beat you! Again it was non relating to what we were even talking about! It was so random and out of context….he just blurted it out! Again I was stunned and couldn’t really comprehend what he had just said until we were done talking and we hung up and all night I kept thinking about what he said and it didn’t feel real! And I sent him an email telling him a lot of stuff and then then Silence on his end! And yeah communication stopped as he would not address what he had said to me on the phone the night before!

      2. geyserempath says:

        Deep sigh: It sounds like you really do know what I am going through and you are right. I have emailed emotional emails before. One time I broke off the relationship and he emailed immediately telling me he still wanted to see me and I mistook that for his feelings for me. Since then every time he has played a new move in the game I have responded and gotten no reply as though I didn’t exist and he never received my email. He would just carry on like nothing happened. I know he was reading them. I am not going to email him and I appreciate your advice and best wishes. I will hang in there and I wish you the very best with your N, too..

      3. Sniglet says:

        NarcAngel – that is one image I didn’t want in my head either.

        Ha ha ha @ HG and his 2 halves. 1/2 + 1/2 + 1 Tudor = ?

      4. Jenna says:

        Hg, gabs, sniglet, narcangel,

        I missed all of these comments for some reason.

        Dw, u may take that thought out of ur mind as i do not engage in threesomes. Plus, i am not of hg’s caliber. He wud never choose me as i give in too easily, not challenging enuf.

        How abt hg, gabs, and narcangel?

        Or hg, gabs, and sniglet?

        That’s a more tantalizing combo!

      5. gabbanzobean says:

        I have not gone NC (least not yet) but I have drastically reduced the amount of reaching out to him that I used to do. He has thrown me one conversational crumb since our ugly argument (which was on Halloween, where I shared with him that I knew of his profiles on sex/fetish/hook up websites). His crumb was “Happy Thanksgiving maybe we will talk after the holiday” (I bet other people got a copy and paste of such too). Maybe has always meant no with him anyway.

        I deactivated my FB so I do not feel compelled to check on him. (it was the only way). He still follows me on Instagram but he has not posted there in many months, he is on FB more. I have not blocked or unfollowed him on Instagram. Those are the only 2 social media sites I am (was) on.

        I stopped sending him emails. I stopped texting. I did try to call him (twice)….once at the start of the month and again before Thanksgiving. He did not answer either time but the second time was when I got the holiday conversational crumb.

        That is currently where I am at. So yeah it was a few weeks of an ST with ignoring. And one “maybe we will talk” crumb. So yes not disengaged as HG said I would be blocked and told “it is over go away”. I was not blocked nor was I told it is over. I was repeatedly told “our sexual relationship” is over but that was a lie since every time he said that it was negated the next time I saw him. So yeah…on the shelf basically.

        1. K says:

          Excellent work. Emotional thinking is very difficult and I struggle with it, too. Do not beat yourself up over it and you are not pathetic or a whore. LoveSex is a very, very powerful addiction. I still struggle with it after nine months of being here. Keep posting and reading; it will help you navigate the emotional sea. The logic here is excellent and will help you get better. It takes time but you will get there eventually.

      6. gabbanzobean says:

        Deep Sigh.
        I never got any gifts other than an occasional dinner or tickets to see his show (he is a musician). He knew his time was what I valued the most and he definitely used that to his advantage. He would always email, text and call me on the phone. Phone calls for HOURS. And then he took it all away and told me I was “too emotionally dependent on him”. He also said he was “starting to become dependent as well” and that it needed to stop.

      7. gabbanzobean says:

        LOL with your ideas and suggestions for three-ways. Thanks for the laugh but I have already had all the fuel fucked out of me already; I am tapped out. Although it piano turd came knocking I am so pathetic I would let him have me again. As much as I hate to whore myself I really need a distraction. I need someone else to get under. LOL.

        1. Jenna says:

          Gabs, lol!

  12. Jenna says:

    I think i experienced this on the blog itself two days earlier with a highly intelligent greater narcissist who shall remain nameless. Like voldemort, he is the one who must not be named (joking!)

    If he disagrees with ur point, it is best to change ur view quickly, or u will regret it. U will be distressed and utterly confused, as i was, not understanding what points i was missing. Perhaps i genuinely lacked understanding. He made sure i knew it, and knew it well. I was exhausted until i completely gave up. It was a frightening experience for me.

    NEVER proceed in a back and forth with a greater.

    My cowardly mid ranger wud have just become silent lol! Or nex wud have texted ‘stop, this ends here’.

    Greaters frighten me to death and beyond. I feel bad for anyone who was with a greater!


  13. Bubbles🍾 says:

    Dear Mr Tudor,

    Your article is excellent advice.

    Don’t narc the narc.

    Ps … Mr Tudor, have you ever met your match?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you Bubbles. No.

  14. Todd says:

    HG, since Charles is a narc and Diana was borderline it seems likely that their sons would be something as well. Do you think William and/or Harry are narcs?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      A valid question, however do not omit the influence of Tiggy Legge-Bourke (now Tiggy Pettifer).

  15. Sandra says:

    I went nine weeks strict N/C escape and ignored his claims of remorse for lies of omission that he said he could have handled better (lol). I was scared of smears and retribution the whole time.

    I caved in week 9 but noticed once I acknowledged him and healed his wound that that was all he wanted.

    Either I’m shelved now or he’s giving me an absent silent treatment to one up me.

    Strangely, this less hostile No Contact suits me better. He’ll roll back around (today is his unacknowledged birthday) saying he was wondering if something has happened to me and he’s been busy but thinks of me often.

    I’m still difficult to contact or run into. I will never reinstate social media. I don’t know what he’s up to but I know what he’s capable of and that is enough.

  16. K says:

    Lesser empath v MMRN: if my daughter wasn’t in the house I would have beat him to death. That was during summer 2014 before I went fuel free. And I would have enjoyed it, too. Fuck him.

    1. K says:

      2015-The Hatred (fuel free)

      This is what I did: triangulation, silent treatments, both absent and present, and when he was at work I threw his shit in my trunk (clothes, CD’s, Shoes, etc.) and donated it, and when he asked where his stuff was I said, “I don’t know.” Narc 1st line of defence: denial.

      It was all instinct. Fuck him.

      Summer of 2014 was a scream fest. Heated empath fury v pussy MMRN fury. He could not handle the heat and he drove away like the yellow-bellied mother fucker he was. Blame shift me? No fucking way! Fuck him, fuck his narc mother, fuck his narc niece and his fucking narc sister.

      Thanks for the fury dad, it came in handy.

      1. Jenna says:


  17. Medusa says:

    HG, many times the anger made me think of revenge, when calm returned to my heart, I thought I could not hurt a person I love even if that person hurts me … there is a very nice phrase that I always appeal to, “Do not become the one who hurt you”

  18. gabbanzobean says:

    This reminded of something that my church piano recital narc said to me once when I tried to “analyze” him in the ways he used to analyze me. Not mirroring per se but me “turning the tables” on him. He says to me, “Ooooh, that is not going to work on me, my darling girl. I am impervious to psychological analysis”

    (insert eye roll)

    Mr. Piano at Church.

    1. Jenna says:

      “… my darling girl” 😒

      1. gabbanzobean says:

        He called everyone “darling”…. well females most likely anyway. 🙄

  19. Deepsigh says:

    Sorry to be so long winded…but I do have something else to add to my previous comment and that is…..I believe my biggest down fall to the first Greater narcissist was that…I admired him so much and I was able to recognize his level of intelligence….he was very successful and very intelligent….in fact when I first met him….I couldn’t believe that someone like him would want me so much and give me so much attention and be so supportive and able to diffuse any emotional state I found myself in….honestly he was everything I have ever wanted in a man….of course at the time I was not aware of the darkness that was underneath….but I will say no other man I have ever met….tapped into my being quite like he did….he tapped into my dreams….he could actually give me all the things I had ever thought I wanted….it was amazing….and that is what made it so hard for me to get over him….once I wounded him as I did….that’s when it all started going down hill and his true self began to imerge and I was devastated beyond any devastation I have ever felt! I will also say when I met him….I was the happiest I had ever been in my life!!!! Cloud nine high!!!!!! Never been that high ever!!!!! So yeah man!!!!!!!!!!!

  20. DebbieWolf says:

    Thanks for this article.
    I really like these types of pieces with the practical instructions.
    This is so helpful.

  21. Narc Angel says:

    An excellent and very clear elaboration on a tactic I questioned previous. Well done.

  22. Deepsigh says:

    Wow! Well thank you for this article! Very insightful and you are right you guys definitely have a leg up on us in your behaviors, such as no conscience or empathy. So yeah we could never beat you in that department even if we tried. Because that is just not who we are. And yes the fury you speak of that is unleashed is pretty scary. And who wants to be set up for revenge at an unknown time from the greater of you. And the possibly bodily injury from the lesser or mid range. Personally I would rather deal with a Greater narcissist then a lesser or mid as they do seem to be more prone to their showing of fury. I believe I have been in relationships with one man that would be considered a Greater. Then also in a relationship with a lesser and a mid range. And the difference I noticed was that the Greater wouldn’t show his emotions at the time, he would just sit with a look on his face and silent. He had more control over his showing of emotions such as jealousy and anger. But it always came out later in a well calculated mind game and I did get punished. Below the belt they are. But I noticed the lesser and the mid range were way more forth coming in the moment with their anger and showed their wounding immediately. However I’m not saying I prefer to be in a relationship with any narcissist. But just that the Greater do seem to have way more control of their display of what is going on inside of them. As I hate to scream and yell and fight. I hate to be yelled at as well. But anyways yeah I definitely see the difference in the Greater, the Mid and the Lesser. And to be honest I don’t know which ones are worse. In fact I would often wonder if the person I was with at the time was even a narcissist because of the difference in their behaviors. Like when I would compare them in my mind and wonder if they were a narcissist, I would think well their behavior wasn’t like the first narcissist I was with so maybe hey are not a narcissist. But yet there were so many other signs they were and then I read your articles speaking of three different levels of the narcissist and then it made sense to me. Yes they are a narcissist, but just another level. Interesting! Because I was with three in relationships and briefly dated one and they were all different. I will say that out of all of them, it is the Greater that I fell in deep love with and that wounded me the worst! I have still not gotten over him! I still miss him and he never once raised his voice at me or lost his cool. He was so well controlled in his behavior and he was extremely intelligent. However he is not good for me and I know that. But he is the one who basically went through all of my barriers and busted all of my boundaries! And he is the one I still think about. However he is the one that was the first Narcissist and he was a Greater and so there after I was able to protect my heart from the lesser ones to follow because I had already been wounded so deeply and this caused me to read tons of books about this stuff and educate myself as the Greater never gave me answers and I needed to understand! Honestly with the Greater there was never any arguing and no drama really…he was very calm! He also had a way of calming me down like no other person I have ever met! He could totally diffuse my emotional state within minutes of talking to him!! And I was a high strung person and he just calmed me like no other and everything he said made so much sense to me! Yeah I hate to admit that I did admire him and his abilities with me….of course there was a dark side I dealt with but yeah anyways!

  23. S says:

    HG, side note but I’m really curious on your opinion on Princess Diana and Prince Charles? Was she a super empath married to a narc?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      He is a narcissist. She was not a super empath.

      1. S says:

        What was she?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          A borderline, S.

      2. Agnes says:

        HG, so if he is a narcissist how come his long relationship with Camilla works out? I don’t believe in the golden period that lasts so many years, so I believe he must devalue, manipulate, and abuse, it’s a narcissist’ nature.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You have answered your own question.

    2. narc affair says:

      Im curious to see what you think of meghan markle HG. Do you think shes a narc? I cant imagine anyone not being a narcissist or highly narcissistic in the royal family.
      I find it interesting prince harry chose someone whose older by 3 yrs(36), divorced, catholic, American and an actress. I like her but shes not what most wouldve thought would be his choice. I do hope it works out for them they seem a sweet couple.

      1. narc affair says:

        I take that back…we are talking harry here aside from being royal hes always been a bit wild and not conformed to the royal steriotype.

      2. HG Tudor says:

        I do not know enough about her to form an accurate assessment.

      3. narc affair says:

        Ty for your reply HG. I dont know much about her either. Itll be interesting to see and get to know her. She seems to have a lot of worldly causes and is eager to do good.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          All I know is she is divorced and in ‘Suits’ and I only know the latter because it was mentioned in a spoof programme about the royals.

  24. Bibi says:

    Perfect timing for this. I mentioned how I suspected a coworker of mine is an upper mid ranger cerebral. Yesterday he was very disrespectful towards me in a very passive aggressive way. Now I am convinced this is what he is.

    Long story short, he has mostly been giving me the silent treatment on and off. Never says hi or chats with me like he used to, though he does this avoidance under the guise of being ‘busy’. He has plenty of time to speak with other coworkers, however.

    And so I overheard him speaking with another coworker about places to hike, which I happened to have visited. Narcissist went on pontificating about all the hiking specifics and the species of birds and bugs, blah blah blah.

    I took this as an opportunity to chime in, since I had good information to offer, I get along very well with the coworker to whom he was speaking, and I also saw it as an opportunity to be friendly with the narcissist, since we do have to work together.

    He completely dismissed my comments, I couldn’t even get a word in, and when I did, he undercut them like what I was saying was silly trivia.

    His modis operandi is condescension. He needs to be the smartest guy in the room. Unless you’re someone who can benefit him.

    While they were speaking, I was getting ready to leave and by chance something of mine broke. Not on purpose, it just broke. I laughed and said something like, ‘What a piece of crap.’

    His response: ‘You always need to be the center of attention.’

    Says the guy who has been pontificating for the past quarter hour.

    I was irritated by his dismissive nature once again, but didn’t show him that. I just walked off and had to go outside to just get some air.

    I don’t know what I have done to become devalued other than I’ve just been very stingy with my fuel. I don’t give him any.

    He used to give me compliments and now he makes digs. He does this to others too–those he deems ‘beneath’ him.

    I wish I had it in me to take a dig back at him and throw it in his face, but he is more manipulative, has more clout, etc. and I would lose. Also, I can’t hide my hurt feelings.

    I don’t want to personalize this, but I am not made of brick. It makes me wonder if I threaten his ego in someway.

    1. narc affair says:

      Hi bibi…ive worked with many like this and they seem to want to impress those they feel arent overly nice to them and they feel are deemed important to impress. If i were you id just ignore him and he will consider you worthy to impress again. Even the mums at my kids school this goes on. The ones i found started to snub me i didnt go out of my way to talk to and they noticed and started to be friendly again. Its so twisted but it stems from low self esteem. Anyone too nice to them they lose respect for bc deep down they dont feel good about themselves and seek approval from those that dont give approval as readily which to them is more valuable. Probably going back to their childhood.
      Id not snub him but i wouldnt go out of my way to engage with him for awhile until he sees you have self worth and dont need his hellos and chit chat. Be friendly but chat with others in the workplace so he sees you dont give a hoot hes no longer valuing you that will make you valuable again and he will devalue someone else.

    2. narc affair says:

      Bibi..i meant to mention my mothers this way too. When im overly nice to her she will treat me like crud but when i step back and dont try to please her or be accomidating or overly friendly shes better to me. Its so f’ed up but ive noticed this about narcissists.

      1. Windstorm2 says:

        Narc Affair
        I have noticed it too. It probably is tied to their poor self esteem. I had thought of it as when they feel sure of us and begin to take us for granted then they begin to treat us worse because they feel that they can. When we show that we don’t care and go on with our lives, then the midrangers will begin treating us better. Unless we’ve repeatedly wounded them purposely. Then I’ve found they stay hateful.

      2. narc affair says:

        Hi windstorm…thats exactly what ive noticed. In one of the blogs fuel potency was mentioned and thats the term i was looking for. If you come off overpleasing they lose respect and your fuel is worth nothing thats when you become the scapegoat for their condescending jokes as bibi pointed out. There always has to be an odd man out in the narc dynamic.

      3. Bibi says:

        Thank you for your comments, narc affair. Those I have been speaking to have been telling me to keep my distance and ignore him. Basically grey rock. It’s just annoying.

  25. narc affair says:

    Awesome blog! Basically if you wrestle with a pig expect to get very dirty. You cant outbeat a master at their game.
    I have personally experienced this in a silent treatment type scenerio with my narc. Hes never really given me a silent treatment per say but ive disengaged from him and not in a silent treatment way but to get a break from the abuse and ive noticed he will contact me much quicker if he sees im still on my social media as usual or unaffected by us taking a break from each other. I think it maybe makes him uneasy im not destitute and feeling super low. When i try hard to smooth things over he will make it more difficult.
    With my narc mother if i mirror her silent treatments eventually she contacts me and is sweet as pie.
    One thing ive noticed with borderlines tho is its the reverse of narcissists. If you mirror their silent treatment it makes them very erratic and insecure. Many will lash out and be upset the other person doesnt care that theyre giving them a silent treatment.
    Mirroring with a narc never works bc the whole point of the relationship is theres one sane person to keep it going. If you go down to their level itll be in essence two narcissists and a two narc relationship self destructs.

    1. geyserempath says:

      Thank you, Narc Affair. How insightful. My narc (MLV) hasn’t called for 2 months, ignores me on FB, and “benefits” have stopped. I don’t know what I have done to irk him, but the FB thing is really killing me and he knows it. I am trying to act like it doesn’t bother me and continue on social media as usual, but I so want to email him and tell him how much it hurts.

      1. Deepsigh says:

        Not sure who’s comment this was about being upset from silent treatment and wanting to contact him to let him know how hurt you are….but from my experience about that….as I have done it too many times to mention….I would say from my experience that emailing him only makes it worse and they enjoy that they are hurting you….and you are giving them fuel and it will only prolong the behavior…and make you look desperate which they love….and the email thing can go on forever….and you find yourself in a never ending cycle of emails….and every time you send a heartfelt email you feel awful afterwards….because every time you do and they don not respond is another jab in your heart! And another opportunity for them to ignore you! It’s sucks!

      2. narc affair says:

        Hi geyserempath…first off sending hugs bc i know how painful this type of rejection must feel. You feel so strongly and he doesnt. It hurts bad and you mull over in your mind what you did wrong and how to change it. HG has mentioned many times in blogs that our place in the fuel matrix really matters as to how a narcissist will respond. It sounds like hes placed you on a shelf and maybe you did nothing wrong other than your fuel potency isnt as potent as someone elses. I hope that doesnt come across in a hurtful way bc i too have been shelved on and off. Im presently off the shelf and it feels great but i know its only bc someone else in his matrix hes gotten bored with.
        Your narc will definitely return at some point but its that whole see saw thing. One minute youre showered with intimacy and attention the next youre dropped like a hot potato. It messes so badly with the mind and self image. The fact hes ignored you on fb and youve not heard from him in 2 months wow What is he really giving you to keep you hanging on? You deserve so much more! Even if he does unshelf you youll be shelved again and it hurts not knowing when the next unshelving will be. Then when you are unshelfed you cant enjoy it bc you know deep down its utter bs and it wont last.
        Hope youre able to move on and forget about this guy hes not worthy of your love or attention.

  26. E. B. says:

    So true. Fortunately, I decided not to follow the mirroring advice given by other people years ago before I knew about this blog. The violent couple of Lessers (his aggressive wife may have actually a BPD but it does not make any difference in this case) would have attacked me physically and I am not exaggerating.

    As you explained, “it is very hard for a person to stop themselves from giving us fuel when there is a face to face interaction. You have to control what you say, how you say it, your body language, the look in your eyes and your facial expressions. That is difficult and often you do certain things unconsciously that will provide us with fuel. Accordingly, you cannot go for long in a face to face situation without providing us with fuel.”

    Exactly. Let’s not forget that some narcissists will argue for ***hours***, if necessary. They will not stop unless we do it first. It takes a lot of energy to do that and I am not speaking about time.

    I also do not agree with the advice given by other people about shouting at the narcissist as a way of frightening them. Another Error of the Ignorant. I think that people who are giving this advice have not met certain types of narcissists yet. They may know one or two shy MRNs and it may have worked so now they believe this will be effective with all narcissists, as if people with a NPD were all the same. This is far from the truth. Your approach about classifying narcissists into different schools and cadres is more helpful and accurate. This has to be considered before taking any further step.

    1. Windstorm2 says:

      The whole idea of shouting at a narcissist was very shocking to me! I dont think that would ever benefit you. Even if it were a shy midranger or a child narc, I’d think it would just create fury then they would plot revenge and make you pay over a long period.

      1. E. B. says:

        I would never do it. Not only is this disrespectful but also, as you said, it would ignite their fury and we would only make things worse than before. I think that many people who write books and give advice on narcissism have no idea what it is like to be the target of vindictive narcissists.

        1. Deepsigh says:

          I have to say… are so right! Coming from a person who had been researching narcissist and such…..they really must not know. And I have never read any truly helpful advice at all besides from this author and blog! The others I read give the worst advice excluding the no contact advice, but they have no real answers of substance. They only highlight the behavior and many of them are just as clueless as the people who read them. However I will say this blog has been very insightful regarding these matters.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Damn right Deepsigh.

          2. E. B. says:

            It is true that those people have no idea what they are writing or talking about. “The Error of the Ignorant” articles speak about this kind of wrong advice.
            I have heard about *not* going no contact. Instead of letting people find a place they can feel safe and protect themselves, they are telling them that it is possible to work on themselves and to control the narcissist at the same time. They do not seem to know that narcissists do not respect any boundaries. People are also encouraged to test if someone is a narcissist or not (just for fun?) but it is not mentioned that doing so they will end up igniting the narcissist’s fury **unnecessarily**. Just imagine trying those things on your boss, people may end up losing their job, ruining their careers or being the recipient of character assassination and losing many social contacts for no reason. It is frustrating to see people getting excited about it and thinking they are smarter than narcissists and will have power and control over them.

          3. HG Tudor says:

            Very well put.

          4. E. B. says:

            Thank you.

  27. Tatjana Ostojic says:

    What is it about narcissists that they seem like such nice people, alluring and successful? They always say the right things, they always seem they are very wise, etc… What is it about them that makes them magneticly attractive? What makes it difficult to be forgotten even when we are aware we suffered because of them? I’ve read plenty on the subject, but some things I still cannot understand nor define.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      This is an expansive answer and you are best placed continuing to read my blog and books as the answers are there.

    2. Narc Angel says:


      They mirror you and you fall in love with yourself. You are chosen-it is never random. To find out why you are chosen you should read sitting target.

      1. Tatjana Ostojic says:

        That’s very interesting. Am I a narcissist if I fall in love with myself? Sitting target… I’m on it.

        1. Narc Angel says:

          Sex and the Narcissist is also a must for those in intimate relationships.

          1. Tatjana Ostojic says:

            Is that a book or an article? I’m not involved with a narcissist anymore,but I’m very interested in the subject.

    3. Narc Angel says:


      They are both books available on amazon.

    4. Amber says:

      for me, i can only say that i need a companion warrior, and that I’ve never met an empath that’s usually strong enough to do the work necessary. if he’s out there, i assume he’s married because I’m not a strong enough empath to get the right guy. lol! so I’m attracted to alpha males who are usually narcs, and not even that, apparently I’ll chase off lesser narcs once i sense weakness (only in an interpersonal relationship, not in regular life).

      so for me it’s not the mirroring, etc, it’s the exquisite leadership skills, people management, their inability to let emotions drain them like happens to me every few hours, their incredible intelligence that borders on supernatural antenna for what others are thinking, etc.

      in fact, whether they believe they’re evil or not, they often can read very astutely what the right thing is to do in a situation simply because they study it so much. they may not feel inclined to do it themselves lol but they give great advice (as mr. tudor does for us in this case), and they can merge with greatness and positive energy when they want to… many could be the saviors of this world if they wanted but because they are uncomfortable of positive energy, due to their spiritual issues, they will jump off track and hurt someone just to feel secure. it’s pretty funny! they’re cute! like tiny demons sometimes haha … gotta love them! ❤

      1. Tatjana Ostojic says:

        I’m a pretty strong empath, and seemingly always attracted to alpha males as well, who often times tend to be narcissists. Oh,well…

    5. Lorraine Vance says:

      Because their personalities are false. Their brains are wired much differently.

  28. Windstorm2 says:

    When I was engaged I would occasionally try this when my future husband had done something hurtful. He always retaliated with something much, much worse. It was like beginning a war.

    When I would complain about that not being fair, he would say that it was necessary.
    If I said that I was just getting even because of what he had done, he’d say that wars aren’t won by getting even.
    If I said that this isn’t a war, his response would be then why are you fighting me?
    If I said how would you feel if I treated you the way you treat me, he would say that he’d have never picked someone like himself. He picked someone like me. That I was the one who picked him so why was I complaining when he acted the way he felt was necessary?

  29. Chet says:

    How would this play out between an aware super empath and a lesser narcissist?

    Also, I watched an interesting documentary about King Henry the 8th. His last name was Tudor too, but more interestingly his narcissism actually allowed some very interesting things to happen in England. Otherwise, he devastated many people.

    Thanks for sharing your perspective with the world, here is the knowledge which could set us free for real…

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