The Empathic Supernova


What is the Empathic Supernova?

In order to detail this phenomenon, it is first necessary to consider when it might appear and what is behind its appearance.

The repeated application of our manipulations is deployed for the purposes of maintaining control over you. This control reinforces our notion of superiority,  omnipotence and impregnability and enables us to draw fuel from our appliances and most of all you as our primary source.

I have made mention of the Empathic Group, the group which lies to the left of the empathic-narcissistic spectrum and within this group there are three schools of the empathic individual; the Co-Dependent, the Super Empath and the Empath.

The sustained application of the many and varied manipulations produces results for us. It also takes its toll on our victims. The Co-Dependent will cling on, desperate for the self-definition which manifests as a consequence of their ensnarement with us. They will soak up the abuse, the confusion and the control until they reach a point of breakdown. The cumulative effect of the silent treatments, the gas lighting, the physical abuse, the psychological trauma, financial mistreatment and sexual degradation eventually causes the limpet-like Co-Dependent to collapse into numbness, malfunction and potential hospitalisation. They gave and gave until suddenly they fell off the cliff and their fuel provision remained impressive on Monday and by Tuesday it had stopped. No longer capable of pumping out fuel, attending to our requirements and showering us with appropriate traits and residual benefits, this failure to function invariably brings about the discard of this individual. The discarded Co-Dependent, although distraught at the loss of the narcissist which they crave, is in no position to try to bring about the resumption of the relationship and thus, whilst we focus on their replacement primary source, they are allowed a period by which they can recover and once the lights switch back on again and the fuel starts to pump, the devaluation of their replacement has begun, so we come looking and hoovering for the Co-Dependent. Unable to resist, because of the nature of the hoovering and their own vulnerability, they are hoovered back in and the narcissistic cycle continues.

Whilst third parties may try to assist the Co-Dependent to see and understand what has happened to them, their own substantial need to connect with a narcissist means it is very hard to make them take notice and stay away from us. Unless physically removed and isolated, the Co-Dependent will drift back to us. If not the original narcissist, a replacement narcissist will invariably be found.

The empathic-narcissistic spectrum is a sliding scale that represents both empathic and narcissistic traits. On the far left the empathic traits are more numerous and stronger whilst the narcissistic traits are fewer and weaker. Move to the right and the empathic traits begin to lessen in number, their effects less evident and the narcissistic traits begin to increase and become more prevalent. Eventually, as one reaches the Narcissistic Group, on the right of this spectrum, the empathic traits have disappeared and all that remain are narcissistic traits which become more numerous and stronger the further right one goes within this Narcissistic Group.

Accordingly, with the Co-Dependent, he or she will have many empathic traits and they are strong in nature. Their devotion to love, their honesty, decency, excellent listening skills, positivity etc are most evident and contribute to create a highly empathic individual. The narcissistic traits are almost invisible and the few that exist are weak. Accordingly, this prevalence of empathic traits attracts and is attracted to the prevalence of extensive and strong narcissistic traits. They locked together, complementing one another and consequently the Co-Dependent is inexorably drawn to those within the Narcissistic Group, with next to nothing in terms of their own narcissistic traits to act as some kind of repellant.

The Empath may also find themselves shutting down, but more usually they are prevented from reaching a position of complete numbing though the intervention of a third party. Sure enough the toll exacted on the Empath is considerable and has damaging consequences, but, in general, they manage to avoid more often the fate of the Co-Dependent. Instead, rather than giving and giving until shut down occurs (as is the case with the Co-Dependent) the Empath’s performance deteriorates in terms of fuel output in a more gradual fashion which means that when it dips below a threshold of acceptability for our kind, the Empath is also discarded. Not so damaged as to be unable to function, the Empath will endeavour to re-connect with our kind, having sufficient energy and ability to do so, but they will be shunned as part of this discard until it is time to hoover them. Unaware of what they have been ensnared by and with capabilities improved after a period of respite arising from the discard, the Empath is sucked back in by the narcissist and thus the narcissistic cycle continues.

The Empath however may also realise that something is wrong, or assisted by third parties and more amenable to listening, takes notice of what these third parties are telling him or her. They have a moment of ‘awakening’ and with that realise that they must remain away from our grip, however hurtful and hard it may be and thus they eventually escape, putting distance between them and our kind.

The Empath has numerous empathic traits and they are of strength but they are not on the same scale as the Co-Dependent. The Empath will have some narcissistic traits, not many and not especially strong in nature, but they will have more narcissistic traits than the Co-Dependent. Their status as an Empath (along with the fact that there are more Empaths than Co-Dependents) means that Empaths become the bread and butter target for our kind. They too are attracted to us, not with the almost hopeless vulnerability of the Co-Dependent, but they remain not only attracted to our kind but a target.

Finally, there is the Super Empath. The Super Empath is an excellent provider of fuel also and comes with a confidence and a fieriness which proves most tempting to our kind. The Super Empath sees his or her role as helping, fixing, healing and brining goodness to those around them. They have considerable energy, they are capable and their capacity for sustaining our abuses also makes them a considerably attractive prospect. The Co-Dependent can sustain considerable abuse until suddenly, like a light being extinguished, that is it. The Empath also can sustain our manipulations but their slide is slower and more gradual. The Super Empath, blessed with a vast capacity for empathy and goodness is also somebody who can sustain a lengthy campaign of abuse. There is no slide downwards with this individual like the Empath. There is no sudden collapse like the Co-Dependent. Instead the Super Empath goes in to Supernova mode.

The trait make-up of the Super Empath is different from their cousins in the Empathic Group. Whereas the Co-Dependent has strong and many empathic traits with little and low narcissistic traits and the Empath has few and fairly low narcissistic traits but more and quite strong empathic traits, the Super Empath has a different constitution.

The Super Empath has very strong and numerous empathic traits. He or she also has a number of narcissistic traits (more than the Co-Dependent and the Empath but not as many as the Narcissistic Group) and they are stronger in nature than those experienced by the Co-Dependent and the Empath.

This arrangement is not problematic. Liken the Super Empath’s narcissistic make-up to the light from a candle and their empathic make-up the light from a spotlight. The intensity of the spotlight is so bright that the candle light is barely noticed. Accordingly, the narcissistic element to the Super Empath does not appear. The Super Empath behaves in an empathic way and thus is a target for our kind.

There comes a time however when the sustained abuse and the awareness of the Super Empath reaches a critical point. Rather than switch off or slide into decline, the Super Empath will decide that enough is enough. In some instances, this means that the Super Empath will escape and follow a similar route to that of the Empath and distance themselves from the narcissist.

On other occasions they enter into Supernova mode. When this happens, the Super Empath will dim their empathic traits. This can only be dimming. The empathic traits cannot be shut off as they are wired into the empath’s dna. Moreover, this dimming can only continue for a period of time and is not permanent. The naturally strong empathic nature of the Super Empath means that it will blaze bright again.

However, when this dimming takes places, the gap between empathy and narcissism in the Super Empath lessens so that the narcissistic traits are more prevalent. They do not dominate nor do they take over, but they are allowed to ‘shine’. However, whereas in our kind the application of our narcissistic traits is unfettered since we have no empathic traits and thus these traits are directed in a malevolent, harmful and destructive manner, the Super Empath uses these unleashed narcissistic traits for ‘good’.

This means that they will fight back against our kind and remain in the relationship with us. They will shut off the fuel provision, they will engage in manipulation of us, having learned how to effect it form their accompanying journey with out kind. The Super Empath will wound and wound, striking blow upon blow against the narcissist.  It is worth pointing out that the Super Empath does not necessarily know that they are with a narcissist (they may only realise this later) but rather they know that something is very wrong in the relationship and it must no longer continue.

Thus when some people ask the question

“Can you become a narcissist from being with a narcissist?”


“Can I pick up narcissistic traits from my experience of being entangled with a narcissist?”

The answer remains no.

But, if you find that you are exhibiting such traits and you are deploying them against the narcissist, what has happened is that you are allowing your inherent narcissistic traits to have greater prominence. You keep them under control and you are not allowing them to harm or hurt innocent parties, but rather you are applying them against the narcissist in order to strike back. You always had these traits, you have not gained them by being with us, but what you have learned is how to manipulate from being with us and now you are turning those manipulations against us.

The effect against us is varied.

The Lesser Narcissist will discard immediately with a display of ignited fury as he seeks to escape the turning of the tables. He will need to get away from this empowered Super Empath and find a new primary source straight away. He wants to shrink from this blazing  supernova of power which is causing him considerable difficulty through the cessation of fuel and the wounding from repeated criticism.

The Mid-Range Narcissist will find himself in a tormented loop as he tries to assert control. He will not comprehend truly what is happening. He will not want to lose the Super Empath owing to the fuel provision, but he is finding that his ability to manipulate and the reasonable degree of calculation that he has, is being sorely tested. He will try to assert his control through passive aggressive means, even pleading with the Super Empath to stop and ‘why can’t you be good to me again’? He will roll out the pity plays and sympathy cards in order to try to achieve superiority again. However,  either the Super Empath decides to escape and leaves the Mid-Ranger in a confused and bewildered state or the Mid-Ranger slinks away and discards,unable to sustain the fight and needing a new and far more compliant primary source.

The Greater Narcissist will rail against this insurrection and fight back. He will draw on fuel from alternative sources (usually the IPSS or IPSSs he has in the wings along with fuel form those NISS who are his inner and outer circle friends). He will relish the challenge shown by the Super Empath and a real battle of wills ensues as each combatant deploys manipulation after manipulation against one another. This hammer and tongs clash of the  titans sees the Super Empath applying what they have learned, similar to the apprentice turning on his or her master, as the old hand seeks to slap down the irreverent upstart. The Super Empath may withdraw and escape, satisfied that they have made their mark and scarred the Greater. The Greater may ultimately recognise that only a stalemate (for now) can ensue and breaks off, discarding the Super Empath and focusses on the acquisition of a new primary source (or more likely the promotion of an already ensnared IPSS). The Greater however will not leave matters there. A note will be made to rejoin battle in due course and bring the Super Empath to heel.

Thus the Empathic Supernova is when the Super Empath determines that enough is enough and he or she reduces their empathic traits, allowing the narcissistic traits to come to the fore and in so doing he or she trains their sights on making life difficult, miserable and awkward for the narcissist. This is why our kind proceed with caution with the Super Empath. Their capacity for sucking up the abusive devaluation and their impressive fuel provision is tempting indeed, but reaching the critical point and causing the ignition of the Empathic Supernova can have dire consequences for our kind.

Not for me of course. I relish the challenge and the assertion of hegemonic dominance. Obviously.

271 thoughts on “The Empathic Supernova

  1. CelsiusD says:

    I discovered and read a few pages in the last days…
    Thank you HG Tudor for this blog.

    You have an enjoyable easy (grim) sense of humor.

    So you are some kind of Supernova Narcissist… “obviously” (?).

    What you said about “A note will be made to (…) bring the SE to heel.” first made me smile, then reminded me of the poem “heel” from Kate Tempest I like very much :
    And each part you killed.
    I forgot.”
    I wasn’t sure what resonated precisely with this last word.

    It could be this: Long time ago I read something about knowledge (and how handling the accumulated weight of it in order to travel light in life): Learn. Integrate the knowledge. Forget the source.

    ^^ If you should ever meet again on N’s constructed battleground, you could just accept to acknowledge it’s a (wounded, frustrated) child. Wait. The child becomes bored of trying to play battle games. …alone.
    Ns/Children don’t like boring.

    Stay light and travel fine.
    – Non-native speaker CelsiusD.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hello Celdsius D, I am an Ultra, welcome on board.

      1. Leanne says:

        What is an “ultra”? New category?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          My category, the best of the best.

          1. MB says:

            Is Ultra a school of one individual?

          2. HG Tudor says:


      2. CelsiusD says:

        Hello Tudor, Thank you for the ride, and for your answer too.
        (didn’t find yet a description of the Ultra

        I am very associative and curious, so here 2 more and last thoughts and questions to this article.

        You call this E above (I don’t like the term Empath) a Supernova E.
        Thinking in terms of celestial events or bodies, how would then you call an Ultra (HG)N?
        … I have some in mind though, but prefer to read what you think.

        The above outlined concept (yours I guess, and a very plausible one), is of an empathic-narcissistic spectrum, with the Es-Left and Ns-Right. You describe them quite complementary and reacting in a specific way to each other in their interaction.
        It would be interesting to have a chart illustrating the respective qualities and evolution, e.g. scales, stages, probable outcomes etc, of their interaction. Is there anything near a chart or illustration I can find in your blog or in your books?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You do not need a description of an Ultra, you read about me the Ultra here.

          There is no evolution between the various people on the spectrum, I have written about the spectrum from empaths on the far left of the scale to our kind on the far right. A diagram would be useful, I will have to task someone to create one. Nuit E is very artistic.

      3. CelsiusD says:

        as the « non-plus-ultra »…? Incredible… 😉 I work with people in manic crisis (bipolar for the most) – among others kind of psychotic critical events…
        This momentum and sense of grandiosity is understandably experienced as an exceptional empowering drive, and it is quite challenging sometimes not to resonate too much with so much energy and drive (when « positive »). And also here when you put it as a fact. But then yes, your blog is in fact unique as far as I could see surfing the web for information from N-peers. So… Enjoy the Ultra!

  2. Echo says:

    “There was a little girl,
    And she had a little curl
    Right in the middle of her forehead.
    When she was good
    She was very, very good,
    And when she was bad…”
    …well, you got the point 😀 This article brought answer to my main question: Why was i corrected a lot as IPSS but not discarded for a year? Dynamic of the dance just didn’t seem wright according to everything I read on this blog, neither I seemed as appropriate target. I have strong narcissist traits ( I am a good liar, manipulator,pretender, not so much decent, have no moral compass whatsoever…but don’t go in there very often,only to protect myself or others that I found worth it) but definitely am honest most of the time ’cause I don’t like to bother with that, fixer, truly listener, carer, don’t need other people’s evaluation and can very good correlate to how others feel. I thouhgt I was bipolar or something, maybe “selective empath” or “little bit of these, little bit of that empath” 😀 I danced for a year with a somatic UMR/LG (in chaos mode since IPPS suddenly escaped two years ago) hard to tell, seems somewhere in between and his fuel matrix was reduced when I met him. On one occasion he said I was “interesting social experiment” and otherwise he would be bored…I said I was gonna strip him to his essence…I subconsciously went supernova on him after five months or so ( didn’t know about narcissist back then) It was hilarious dance now I think about it 😀 I saw something was wrong but thought he is just going trough tough divorce….I always admired him for wrong reasons ( manipulation, pretending..) and gas lightning, blame shifting, silent treatments and fury (breaking stuff) somehow didn’t work on me…I go fury and use silent treatments myself.I used to wound/criticize him a lot, but he didn’t want me to go aldough he claimed from the start that he didn’t love me.Found out about narcissist by accident (read it in some magazine) tried it out for a month and then got bored and escaped without any notice and went no contact. Three weeks passed by and still no hoover. Either he is confused UMR or LG making a note 😀 Once I said “You know I’m gonna win”, he said “I don’t think so,but you can try” I didn’t even know what I was playing at the time, but I won and I will win,no more fuel here for you, sir 😀
    I think that Super empaths are usually brought up by narcissist parent/s and Supernova is subconscious method that is developed in order to survive them.I go supernova very often and very easily.My mother is victim narcissist ( I think mid ranger) and I am black sheep, my brother is golden child (not narcissist,but also has some traits different than mine).

  3. HG Tudor says:

    I shall.

  4. Narc Angel says:

    Hey K

    I saw a coffee mug the other day with the message:

    I have the patience of a Saint.
    Saint Cunty McFuckOff

    There is a significant savings if you order in bulk. Shall I bundled your order in with mine?

    1. K says:

      Narc Angel
      Abso-fucking-lutely! Ha ha ha….I will take a box of them.

    2. Perse Jumped Into The Fire says:

      Can I order my coffee mug with you Narc Angel?

      I could use the patience of a saint, even if St. Cunty McFuckOff.
      It’ll look nice next to my F*ck You, You F*ckin’ F*ck coffee mug.

      1. K says:

        Perse Jumped Into The Fire
        The coffee tastes so much better when I drink it out of my St. Cunty McFuckOff mug.

        1. Perse Jumped Into The Fire says:

          I bet it would, with some Caffe Corretto in it. LOL

          1. K says:

            Ha ha ha….you betcha!

  5. DUTG says:

    Victims of narcs are robbed of any sense of justice. If someone had murdered our loved one, or if we’d been raped, and the offender was found guilty in a court of law, we’d at least get the option of making a victim impact statement during the sentencing phase. All too often it is actually the victims of narcs who are judged and put on a trial of sorts, having to defend themselves against a smear campaign, defending themselves to those who they previously thought to be in their corner before the narc influenced them in someway. It’s truly the worst thing to have encountered in life, being a victim of a narc. Only fellow victims will ever understand.

    1. DUTG yes it seems so now Yet this is only the beginning where the victim even gets the effects of ridicule by those who prefer to add to the suffering those who encounter the narc suffer just as in the the new primary source who smiles in her position does not see that noxious gas the smoke of the Love Bomb has Clouded her perception the monkeys all bouncing up and down the little capped monkeys running back and forth to deliver the Narc his or her goods does not realize more , than us they will suffer as the narc describes his or her suffering at our mean cruel merciless disrespect of them they ooze with pity and swear to deliver us the deadly blow for hurting the Narc,its all very well and fine we are disguised in abuser apparel and the narc in a victim’s Yes many people will Help the Narc hurt us More This is the Mummers dance Truth_things are not as they appear to be and a LIE things appear to be as they should not be_we can either agonize over this remain vigilant Truth Manifests itself_Lies dissolve into nothing they are illusions to convince those who will that things are a certain way they eventually show forth not to be and the lie desolves into nothing an illusion that imitates reality what happens in the world of the narcissist and those who fall prey to one is no different the narc presents an illusion that causes many to either accept as true or the victims know only too well is not the narc goes to elaborate effort to convince everyone that he or she is one thing in fact is another also goes to elaborate effort to at the same time convince everyon that the victim is the false and they the narc is true victim when in fact this is false thee victim is not involved on this level and is not operating wi a hidden agenda the narc is this gives te narc advantage in all respects by the time a victim realizes they are such much of the scheme is accomplished and even then the victim knows they are being treated badly by what or why is still not known so it advances the narc has a stage already set complete with role players none of this staging is afforded the victim there is no solid footing for the victim no defense had the victim been wise to the narc agenda there would be no victim no success the narc succeeds by injustice and has perpetrated an healthy defence before the victim knows anything so of course the victim gets litte or no justice thats the name of the game you are not scheming to destroy them they have you cornered before you realize what is happening and you either agree to support this narcagenda or you refuse which is precisely how you become the bad guy it is the narcs game you did not agree to play you where chosen to play you do not have choices it is not about you_It is about them their will their way in their mind thats all their is you are only alive to the narc in so far as you function for them thats the way it is no you just them and customized with you as as an extension of them if you cease to function they replace you if you begin to cause injury by flying apart they ave other appliances to rush to their aid to shut you down how can justice come to you appliances that mal function are worthless nuisances not victims of injustice if you muster a revolt you will be dismantled and crushed cast into the trash Justice doesn’t enter this game you are a faulty appliance that is trouble to the narc unfair to themyou do not work as you should that is fraud you were chosen to operate in acertain way for a certain reason if you do not you have cheated the narc robbed them of their right its not sane and if you struggle with this you will lose sanity your you can not exact justice where it does not exist i oder to get justice they must accept fault or be seen in fault by a superior there are none but the narc they are it no one else If you do not believe in God you are over before you begin if you Realize God bide your time you will understand the narcs end when you see the end of their Superior it is ws over before they began The only Hope for them is Realization Something is wrong The only hope for You Is escape Ruin is not the issue What can you lose that is worth giving yourself to keep unless you realize that and you have a room with a view I accept ruin Can’t argue that I don’t Care what results if I have Breath I am not a win or lose person to me its not a Game its who I am I couldn’t escape if I wanted I was Not made to Function according To Lies and I am not their appliance I am Resisting the Whole Regime Body Mind and Soul and thats that Because I know its end I am not Serving that Side and I get my drive from that knowledge this or that narc is not my foe they are the monkeys from a source that is destroying them from within mine was taken in it I cant help that ,I know the solution, It is not Me but It also Is not them and they are not in control JUSTICE is coming and you will see it if you choose to I am moving past this crap its only an illusion to confuse You from the real enemy they are victims just like us but worse they believe it I don’t the narc you I know what is using them and it needs a body to move it has made an agreement with them angry hurt souls they agree and it provides them a certain level of temporary goods and a sense of power but it LIES to them they to us I don;t Hear It I hear the TRUTH My advice Is This We either Crumble to pieces Because we were treated wrong or we get over it and go through it until we are relieved the real hard part is seeing someone you loved be eaten alive I am Going on because of that and because I hate What Is underneath the Torment I am ok With Its not about Me I am not convinced its about them either Its just Part of the scene and People Are used as pawns in it to destroy However many they can Grab escape is this move past once you know what you are dealing with how it operates share your experience with someone else who is stuck help them get free and you will help yourself as the result if people call you crazy so what if they say its all Bs So what! You Know You are not here To get validation from other people if you are living your validated reason enough we get stuck feeling sorry for ourself it is bad it hurts but it will paralyze you if you stay there Get outside Yourself Lose yourself You will find Yourself again don’t absorb lies seek the Truth You will find it if you reach for it if somebody leaves your life because of this or that reason let them go you are better off without extra baggage and be careful who you let in people are not to be given trust they earn it over a course of time if their words don;t match their actions leave them figure out by theirself you do not need to involve yourself in their confusion because you willl not help them and they will keep you from your own business you are attached to nobody else but to the extent you agree and they agree if that becomes chaos let loose of them quickly move on your way if you matter they will get it an come back with different manners if not fare well you are walking with others on your own way some briefy some for awhile help those who let you but they also will be helping themself they will no be sitting while you do yours and theirs you serve others but are not their property your help others and accept their help do not let them drag you down and hold you in place neither do you hang on them like your life jacket you got one so do they help them find theirs if they need that do not give yours away unless you have 2 if you need help ask but if they do not help don’t bother them if they want to much say no the ones who really need help don’t ask for what is not essential and they remember who cared people that ask large favors and do not work to help you grant them are using you _We all know how to use others and we all know types we easily could We do not all chose to do it to benefit ourselves just because we can we do not see kindness as weakness we see it as a rare and special it is a strength compassion is a gift empathy is also they already know what you need it is hard to fool them unless they let you why do you want to Injustice is grievous But it is a fact of our day it does not go unpunished I assure you But Ask yourself why you need to see it know that and complaining about it is more attention than it deserves we do not fix others we show them how to fix themselves if they need ideas it is up to them to apply advice it is not personal if they do not follow it it is their business. living right is its own reward it doesn’t need a stage or advertising we do not have to wear our hearts on our sleeves thats why we have them inside maybe everyone is not mean’t to see how much we really care if someone breaks your boundaries they will break other things as well we would not need to Super Nova if we did not give people our permission to hurt us we are part to blame we put an extra guard on empathy it is a resource to be used when others really need that we know that already why do we squander resources as if they were common people can use us up this way then some of us grow dim and burn out just because you Super Nova replenish what is used does not mean you can give others free fill -ups when we super nova we eat up little stars that get in our way how sad that is they were very bright and we destroy them as well as the debris in our path we temporatily become worse than those who caused the explosion We can do better work with steady light then shatter parts we have nothing over other stars we were gifted we did not earn this and it can be come dangerous to us and those anywhere near it It is not a Superior being that has this ability it is a dense heavy mass We need to learn to travel light not leave destruction everywhere P.S_ H.G The Mugs Are not that humorous I personally do not even bother to read them and there is no fuel if I do Just saying lady Narcs Get Super Nova very quickly They Do not even need to be near me I do not Care If I take them out in my path They really are no Loss just hard and brittle no precious metal or too little to spend looking for it gravity pulls them out of orbit and they can break with a truth very easy they really don’t look good in noose s we already know they hang them selves before we serve injury they do not make you look better they are iron bolts and lack the social graces the men of higher ranges seem to wear nicely ladies are very easy to spot not so for the men who love them Reece Witherspoon is coming in my path a definite collision course good day!

    2. AliceInWonderland says:

      I think it is already a good thing to know I am not the only one with this fate and that I could not have changed the outcome of the battle in family court since most people in power have NPD and prefer their own kind.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        They don’t prefer their own kind.

        1. Renarde says:

          Now you might say that HG. I couldnt possibly comment!

  6. Julie says:

    TIL I pulled a Supernova to escape. Cool 🙂

  7. Narc Angel says:

    This is absolutely the place to get it all out uncensored and to feel safe in doing so amongst those who understand. Im not suggesting that change-let it fly. I do, and have taken heat for it on occasion. I guess I just dont think about others in those terms. I doesnt come naturally to me to label someone with something that is beyond their control such as their looks or their inherited economic situation in the same way that I do not call people who cannot walk a cripple or who have learning disabilities a retard. We are all beautiful to someone.

    Oh……except for narcs. Narcs are heinous. Haha.

    1. sarabella says:

      It doesn’t come naturally to me either. And because it reminds me of my mother and her brutal criticisms, I hated to be that way. And that is why I often rarely judged people this way. MUCH to my disadvantage. I wish I had given myself much more permission in life to judge others and be that way. I would have maybe avoided a whole lot of bad situations with people had I looked at what someone really had to offer and who someone really was and called a spade a spade.

      And of course, you have to know, that I was on the receiving end of most people judging me and something about me my whole entire life and them telling me I wasn’t perfect enough to love, either by their actions (being overlooked) or by people outright telling me. Which that narc DID to me at 14 and again, 35 years later. That’s some effed up sh*t.

      So I know well how horrid it is that someone should be judged or described or treated a way because yeah, we are all beautiful to someone and loveable to someone. But I used to feel that because I wasn’t perfect, it meant I wasnt’ allowed to judge or be picky or whatever. And that made me very vulnerable to a whole host of awful personality types. Like who am I to judge, or be picky becuase society has told me that people with injuries are not loveable. Right?

      In the case of how I described that girl, I am not using it to deny or withhold anything from her. My opinion of her, someone who doesn’t even know about me (by name cause I know he used me to triangulate with her in a conversation he hinted at once and I am sure it was with her), my judgement doesn’t harm her life or affect her life in anyway.

      When I judged the narc, his hold over me lessened. When I judged him in certain ways, he stopped being so desireable to me. So it has its place in self-defense.

      1. JenniferJ says:

        I think it’s natural to feel angry and judgemental and less “charitable” than you normally would be when you’re working through all the hurts and deceptions you were subjected to. It doesn’t mean you are like that deep down about everyone or that you will feel the same way in a month or a year’s time. All of us judge to some extent. We’re human and it’s what we do. Maybe it sounds harsh, but it has its place in the bigger scheme of figuring things out. Like K said, even her poor cat was in the firing line and being called a cunt lol 😀

        1. K says:

          Ha ha ha…thanks for the laugh, JenniferJ!
          I was so mad I couldn’t see straight. On a happy note, the cat seems fine and I don’t think she is suffering from any PTSD. You are correct; we are all just trying to figure it out and, sometimes, we lash out at innocent people (or cats) and that is understandable given the circumstances.

      2. Carrie Arends says:

        We can assess a persons actions with out judging the person on most levels but if a person chronically lies that is a Liar in my opinion not all people who lie are liars but they lean heavy on my distrust lever if it is frequent the fruit tells us exactly what type of tree we do not get certain fruit and not have a specific variety of fruit tree certain fruits expect to confuse us in identification of their kind it is essential they be identified in order to avoid the fruit that is not judgemental that is basic if you meet a rotten fig it will be the first to label you judgmental this only seems logical if it wants to market rotten figs as peaches if I am marketing deception I would be annoyed to be identified by name_if I am bananas and thats what I am marketing even if you call me lemon it would not bother me as the truth will be revealed in the banana by everyone who is served banana that I in fact am not lemon. therefore judge me lemon to your hearts content your judgement would not offend me in the least judgement is the most offensive to those who are correctly identified but marketing a fruit if deception

      3. Renarde says:


        A beautifully thought out post. Your intelligence is doing you credit

        Keep on reading and keep on learning.

        We’re always here.

    2. Carrie Ann khaddour says:

      Narc Angel _ is what it is _Hate using that term it is so ignorant and implies You just don’t Care but in this precept it fits We may call a hand grenade IT But That she Blows just like a hand grenade Narcs a in Movie Stars Know It They Do not Care what We think as long as It is Socially Trending to be IT_They have Narc Cocktails going about them in endless supply rarely do they loose a tail feather_A person Is crippled Not a Cripple _People Suffer Narcissistic Disorder for the most Part Say Thank you how gracious of you to notice ,Not that I thought you so inept as to neglect superiority and magnificence when you see it ,_the poor lot is the Lesser Narc Wilbur the Pig who thinks he is a porcine god_Swooning in a pond of his own Crap_Such Imbeciles who are beside themselves these are painful riddles I feel Pity To super Nova on such But I also wield a a lead baseball bat of course in a velvet glove I have seen my share of these And They will Ruin Empathy in a short brief oh you poor thing Before You pull Katana on these Pity is out of line Empathy is for nought and Compassion is THE TRUTH HURTS and Super Nova is PAY BACK is You Know What!

  8. Bibi says:

    I agree with you Sarabella. I haven’t seen any comments here that are worthy of feeling guilt over. It’s one thing to harass someone in real life or start some smear campaign, but another thing entirely to get your thoughts out here, where they will be welcomed.

    I admit to judging people’s actions. I had a Lesser narc discard me (never dated him, he just did the flirt thing and then was gone) in favour of someone who had no education, multiple kids by multiple dads, is rather plain looking, and received 2 DUIs in 2017. She has no license, no job and lives with the narc’s dad with 3 kids.

    I am sure their house smells like shit and apple juice.

    I laugh because he paraded how great she was on FB. Oh, yes this is true love. It was clown shoes ridiculous. They are both trash. When you have 3 young kids to care for and you are going out getting drunk and driving and being sent to jail, you are trash.

    Is it judgemental of me to say this? You bet. Can she get herself out of it, make herself better? Sure, if she wants. But it’s not my problem nor do I really give a shit. I pity her young kids because they don’t deserve to have such a shitty mom and a shitty mom’s boyfriend.

    I won’t feign empathy. I am going to call something for what it is, and I won’t apologize for that.

    “And for someone so somatic, so vain, so superficial, so shallow, I was glad to see it all for what it is.”

    Perfectly on point.

    1. sarabella says:

      Bibi, thanks.

      I think the reaction is normal. And like you said, I never attacked the girl I knew about or smeared her. I attacked them here or in my head as part of my arguement against HIS TRIANGULATION and to defuse it. But what was the alternative? To be hurt that he chose some poor, over weight, uneducated, cellulose ridden child (he is 54, she was 16 when he started in on her and only made his “relationship” to her public when she hit 18) over me? No way. Of course I am going to mock his choice to down grade. You bet.

      I am going to call out his choice for what it was because it showed me that his choice was irrelevant really. He was just a loser and likely, was just sucking the life out of a nobody cause there is no way in hell was he ever going to marry that child, wake up to her every day, proudly call her his wife. He was using her. And because I eventually knew that, I warned her. I warned her that he was abusive, and was going to try to pimp her out. By that, I meant get her to accept his perverted life while he used her. I was never mean to her or called her anything.

      But that doesn’t change what HE was doing and what a choice he made. And not that someone poor, unfortunate and uneducated isn’t deserving of love, but there was just no way he was ever going to marry that girl or love her. It was about HIM that I laughed at it all.

      I used the situation to help step on his head and above him. Enjoy your ride, your life, I told him. I hope its great and you should have gone to that poor girl for money, not me. It was a way to slap him in the face for using me, too. Its a way to reject the hurt and him at the same time. Who wants a man who could stoop that low, anyway? The girl deserved someone her age, someone who really might care for her. She tried so desperately to market herself online after she hung out with him. I sometimes wonder if he made her feel that desperate or if she always was.

      Bitterness, anger, hurt, and being perplexed are what drives these words at times, until you get on top of the dynamic to understand why he would ever chose that poor girl. She actually is just a sad poor girl who bought his lies. In her case, she isn’t shitty herself. Desperate, vulnerable, and likely to never get anything she wants in life. Which is exactly what he likes I heard, so he can exploit and control these girls. But none are girls you proudly take him to mama. No, way. And when I allowed that to sink in, I realize how much he had lost in his life by all these sad choices he has made. Even if he is compelled to be this way. His loss of me was greater in the end than mine of him. That’s what it all showed me when I allowed myself to be so ‘cruel’ in my analysis of her. I didn’t judge her before God, serve her a life sentence, but yea, I judged her and him. And its a good thing. I think many empaths don’t judge enough and I am glad I allowed myself to. It was all part of my training. He lost. He lost big time with me twice in life.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        “She actually is just a sad poor girl who bought his lies. In her case, she isn’t shitty herself. Desperate, vulnerable, and likely to never get anything she wants in life.”

        My point exactly and the reason it makes no sense to apply derogatory remarks towards the successive victims. Saying the new victim is fat, stupid, or in any way less than, is only ones perception of them and doesnt make it true. It just helps one to elevate themselves and justify by comparison-but you can do that without tearing another victim (as we all once were) down. That might be a better yardstick to gauge if youre actually “winning”.

      2. Sarabella says:


        People are entitled to do what they need to do as it harms no one directly here. And because I am fairly certain most people here would not act that way under not so painful and horrific situations, then all the power to them if they just for a while drop the nice girl and come out roaring. HG and his kind target us because they know we likely won’t be that way. And if victims find it safer to direct their rage here that way, maybe because to do it directly to a narc is too risky or terrifying, why shouldn’t they? Who is it harming? I have watched so many women often never heal in life because they never get angry outwards. They turn it all inwards which is what HG and his kind anticipate. So if its clumsy, not the best, maybe misdirected but gives people a way to vent their confused, betrayed anger, and it helps them to find their angry backbone which can help them find their broken boundaries, then why not? Sure, in the grand scheme of things, it caries a short term return. And eventually, there needs to be other ways to cope and to find a way towards separation, healing, self-esteem and all but the reaction is entirely understandable given some of the horrific experiences people have been through and with which they are trying to cope.

        1. NarcAngel says:


          You seem almost determined not to understand the point of “roaring” at the abuser but not the victim. Im not even sure if you were honest with yourself if you actually believe your argument at this point or are just focused on opposing me. I get that from some and its fine-sharpen your claws.

          You mentioned in one of your comments calling a spade a spade. Heres a spade: The only evidence I see in a year that you have even begun to start healing (much less won) is that you are here and I hope that you stay until you are.

          Perceptions. See how that works?

          You are indeed entitled to “do what you need to do” so have at it. I was just trying to understand your concept of benefit in labelling victims. I wont interact with you further because it appears to affect your experience here and I wish you well.

      3. Bibi says:

        Life is not merely guided by perception. There is an objective reality. If you are 500 pounds, you are fat. If you are continually doing stupid things, you are stupid. Recognizing someone as such is not derogatory. It also doesn’t make you a ‘better person’ to pretend that these realities don’t exist.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Everything is about perception. How you perceive that you see, hear etc is the interpretation that your brain feeds you. What is actually there could be different. For instance, do you remember that white/gold or blue/black dress picture? People were looking at the same thing and had different perceptions, in this case colour. It then blurs even further when one enters the realm of opinion and value-judgment. You make reference to doing stupid things, Bibi, but how does one determine that it is stupid. Certainly, you may regard the behaviour as stupid, someone else may agree with you, someone else may not.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            Exactly. Fat to whom? Stupid to whom? All one persons perception but not that of another.

            Bibi: Remember when your perception was that your narc friend was a good friend and a nice guy? Howd that perception pan out?

          2. H. says:

            Trying to put people into a perceived “healing” box is an good example. What works for one person may not work for another.

            How each of us chose to put the pieces back together will vary from person to person.

            My favorite aunt taught me “there are no wise men” (or women)

      4. Somewhere over the rainbow says:

        Just something I observed (strictly on the “perception” subject):

        I was told “you have to drop weight” and “you have to gain some weight” by two men seeing me having same weight, same time of the year. One was the narc, the other my now husband. One was “seeing” me as a “porn star” (in his obsessed mind) but I’m a normal woman, I was spending time in school and at work, not having “implants” as I wasn’t preparing for a future in sex industry; the other one was thinking he wanted a child and a life with me and wanted me to be healthy.

      5. Sarabella says:

        What I won wasn’t a direct parralel to healing.Whoever claimed that? And I haven’t been back here in months and months and HG can attest to that. I only came because I was deeply triggered by my mother. Not from him. And yes it hits wounds.

        You are determined to not hear that I never roared at any of his victims. I roared here in hurt and anger against what he did and if his victims were brought up, it was to understand the pattern and nothing more. HG himself described the deliberate choice to chose women less then someone he wants to deliberately, and why he does it. It was always in the vein of that writing.

        I am not interested in being schooled by you on how judgements harm and are perception and interfere with healing. God, my entire story is about physical judgemensts people make and made against me. I know more about it than I ever have cared to know. It is the core of this story.

        I don’t want to stay here. I come as I need to now and need to remind myself of the dynamic. Nothing more.

        1. H. says:

          That’s her thing……ignore it and do what works for you. ” There are no wise men”….only yourself to answer to.

      6. sarabella says:


        You just NAILED one of the great dysfunctions of some of the other healing sites on narcissism. How many people decided that they were entitled to call out how long someone has taken on their healing. How wrong it was when they remained stuck. So many assumptions that were made that people weren’t changing slowly on the inside even if the outside appeared to not change. So many wrong things people were doing. Other than the ultimate goal of NC, who are people to decide where someone is at? I haven’t been here in about 4 months. So that was pretty snarky and out of line.

        I spent the day today writing an 11 page letter of the entire timeline of the narc. Cool, calm, fully aware of everything that happened. No emotion. The effect of his gaslighting are all but gone and I had no uncertainties, no hesitations about any of that time line. I was tempted to post it on my old closed Facebook page. A page with 60 mutual old ‘friends’ from 35 years ago. A letter to finalize the entire story for me. I have been deeply triggered the past 24 hours from my mother, and by some old emotions and thoughts. And I was almost in danger of posting it and breaking my 11 month absence and silence.

        Thank you for what you said as you helped to snap me out of some of the returned rage and fog. And thanks to Bibi, too, for backing me.

        Contrary to what some people might think, I never ever spoke badly to any of his victims. I always knew it was about him. But I was entitled to laugh at his choices if they were that deliberate as HG choses his victims to hurt and recover supply, especially after any deep wounding he had and was using someone to fix himself. The poor girl was nothing but a rebound supply control for him. Not ever someone he would marry, call his own, and love and cherish, Like had treated ME. So I was her and she was me. That was never lost to me. But we all were her as he had the chance to be with many attractive women, have his trophy beauty girlfriend and wife, and he never could even hang on to them. Somatic narc to his core and he ended up with such a low level of desperate humanity. I found it funny, actually, once the shock wore off. Less hurtful but funny when HG explained why this happens. So it was never about ME and always about HIM. But I did get to mock him for his poor choices, as a way to laugh at him and wound him. I deserved that, God I deserved that for the LIES he told about ME and MY appearance!! The guy with the tiny penis and looks like a concentration camp survivor with serious erectile dysfunction shamed me for my injury and that I would grow old one day? Yeah, I met him on his superficial level of beauty and went for his juggler. Whatever it took at the time for me. I took it to him, not to any of those poor girls.

        And the hurt? I would have accepted all of it in him. All of it, his poor physique, his erectile dysfunction, I had love him that much. Fool that I was. Because everyone does deserve love, even with all the problems of the bodies we live in. He just didn’t want my love. So I didn’t need some bullshit schooling about perception and love and judgement of people and their looks and how that must mean I wasn’t healed and still hanging around. Ah, no thank you. My entire story was about MY LOOKS and how he could NOT accept me! So yeah, like I know nothing about knowing that just because someone looks a certain way, doesn’t mean they don’t deserve respect, love, care, or are not loveable?? Really?

        Thank you H! You just nailed it so well. And a burden lifted off of my chest.

    2. Bibi says:

      HG, perception is most definitely not everything. I don’t subscribe to that, as I find it extremely solipsistic to think that anyone’s ‘reality’ makes it so.

      This is why schizophrenics are in mental institutions. Because their ‘perception’ is fucked.

      Your dress comparison is on par with wine. Yes, eyesight and tastes differ due to physical compositions. So what I might perceive as as a great wine, you might think is gutter swill. Fair enough. I can’t argue with your tastebuds.

      But when you are 500 pounds, you are fat. No amount of perception will change that.

      Narc Angel chose slim, sexy, beautiful Michelle Pfeiffer in a cat suit as her image over someone fat and unattractive. There is a reason Michelle was hired for the role and not Rosie O’Donnell.

      Sure, are there some out there who might perceive Rosie as more attractive? Maybe. But in that case, it comes down to facial symmetry. Granted, I will concede that the majority opinion does not necessarily make something so, but again, facial symmetry, slimness, etc. Even infants recognize it.

      There are people who think the earth is flat. They are stupid because they choose to overlook scientific evidence. That they ‘perceive’ it is otherwise is irrelevant to the reality at hand. It is not flat.

      They think they are smart. So what. Are all opinions equal? Should I care what a paramecium thinks of me? Let’s not vaccinate kids because Jenny McCarthy says so.

      No, we do not live in this little solipsistic bubble universe where anything can be anything else on a whim as long as someone perceives it so. The earth existed long before humans, and long before narcissists.

      When a Lesser punches you in the mouth and you are bleeding, holding your teeth, that is not perception.

      Again, I acknowledge perception exists, esp. in human relationships, which is why narcs succeed in fucking with us so, but that does not negate objective reality as something real and tangible. Gravity is real. Liquid nitrogen will burn.

      To say it is cold is perception. To say it burns and will lead you to lose a limb should you soak yourself in it is reality. Therein lies the difference.

      All in good spirit, HG.

      1. NarcAngel says:


        Was directed to this article by another comment and just noticed your comment (which I previously was not notified of). I was not even aware that was Michelle Pfieffer. I simply searched for masked faces (not bodies). I just happened to like this one and thought it easy to spot. So the perception that I chose it because she is slim and sexy is a good example of your perception at work because it was not the case.

        1. K says:

          When I see your gravatar, I think of an ass-kicking-super-heroine fighting for the underdog.

        2. Twilight says:

          Narc Angel

          Cat woman may walk along the edge but in the end she does the right thing.

          It suits you.

  9. Insatiable Learner says:

    HG, when I read people post about how great they are, how much better they are than other supply of their narc, what all their qualities and characteristics are, talents, etc., is this more often than not an empath trying to build back up their diminished self-esteem and self-soothe in this way or a narcissist using this forum to self-promote?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Most of the time it is an empathic victim who is looking to rebuild self-esteem but also is genuinely perplexed as to why the narcissist has selected someone who appears less ‘of a catch’ than them.

      1. Insatiable Learner says:

        Thanks so much, HG! I appreciate it. I dare say your insight, awareness, and perceptiveness are truly remarkable. God help me but I genuinely like you. I know you have heard this many times before but I still wanted to say it. I know you say you are different in real life but the way you are here, I would really love to have you as a friend to seek insight and wisdom from and, of course, in return, I would promise to provide reliable, plentiful, and potent positive fuel. 🙂

      2. Bibi says:

        It’s not about the catch but all about the snatch.

        What were you saying about that copyright thing? There you go. The title to your next article. You’re welcome.

        Yuk. Yuk. Yuk.

    2. Narc Angel says:

      Its natural to compare I suppose, and one thing to think it to oneself, but quite another to verbalize or advertize it in the way that it is sometimes displayed here. The names and descriptions used are usually very telling. One could say or ask about the successor perhaps not being his perceived usual type but that is usually not the case. Words like ugly, fat, slutty and descriptions such as: shes not as intelligent or as wealthy as I am are used and speak more to the person using them. I usually think they are hurt and lashing out and I understand, but how would they like for their daughter to be described as such just for being targeted and unaware? I always think that the person using such descriptions is still well involved and far from healing no matter how much they claim to be or it simply wouldnt matter or occur to them to be thinking about his victims in this way.

      1. Insatiable Learner says:

        This is excellent analysis, NarcAngel, and I agree, especially, on the part about thinking to oneself and advertising it here. I always enjoy reading your comments and I find your reasoning logical, fair, and balanced. Thank you!

      2. geyserempath says:

        Narc Angel – Your comment was spot on!
        “I always think that the person using such descriptions is still well involved and far from healing no matter how much they claim to be or it simply wouldnt matter or occur to them to be thinking about his victims in this way.“ I am guilty of comparing myself to the new victim on this forum and as HG said I was genuinely perplexed as to his choice and I was wounded. I am not proud of my statements at all. You are completely correct in your assessment that I was still well involved with him and you are also correct that my energies are far better spent focusing on my total escape. You are very wise and I thank you for your insight.

      3. DUTG says:

        I get dismayed when I see someone say that their fuel is better than the successor as that is not a good thing. The best fuel for us is an empty tank in regards to them. The well is dry Mr. Narc. There is nothing left in Little Red Riding Hood’s basket, plus you have already eaten my grandmother.

        But we all come here at different places in the journey, and God knows with grief you can feel you are making great progress and the next day you are in a heap on the floor. I remember telling a counselor that I felt everyone was pushing my buttons. I could get very sensitive to remarks in in life and on the narc forum. This wise counselor said, sometimes after trauma, our buttons are SUPER sized. If we keep that in mind, and use our empath strengths like patience and understanding, we will not turn on each other in here.

        We just have to keep on keeping on. It is what sets us apart. I used to like the analogy of a robot on wheels with one of the wheels pinned to the floor. It just keeps going round and round and round in the same spot. That is the narc, but not us. We progress even though it seems two steps forward three steps back sometimes. We will not let anyone die on narc hill. We are fellow soldiers in this battle. We are boots on the ground, and HG provides the intel!

      4. sarabella says:

        I don’t entirely agree. This is probably the one place a victim feels freer to lash out in their anger in a relatively safe way. If I ever used words to describe his last victim, uneducated and fat, I chose those words because words not unsimilar were used by him to describe me in his discard of me. It is part of a mental excercise for me to break the power his words had because by describing his last victim that way, as it was the truth, because it allowed me to put on the table the fact that his words about me were irrelevant in themselves held against the fact that he WANTED to hurt to control me. His words really meant nothing. His intent is what mattered. He has no standards, really, as evidenced by his other choices. So the puprpose of his words became clearer when I saw his other poor victims. His rejections and criticisms didn’t mean a thing if he turned around and ran around with some girl who was not much to admire. And in real life, I am a defender of women and rarely if ever describe people like that.

        I do here because this is the one place I get to STOP being so caring and empathic and understanding. The very things that got in my way of running fast and far when he started his games. I get to PRACTICE being cold-hearted here in a way I can’t in other areas of my life. And I did warn her, so while I saw her being used, saw she had all these qualities that weren’t so superficially desirable, I did feel sorry for as his next victim.

        By franktly assessing his other victims, it helps me to asses his true character and WHY he did what he did because he will pick and chose what he can, the weakness and vulnerabilities in his victims, to hurt and control them. And because he is a somatic narc, I was glad I got to become a bitch enough to throw it back in his face that he likes fat ugly girls. It was agasint HIM, not the poor girls, that I used such words. Just like I threw back in his face his liking prostitutes. And seducing little 15 year old children. All victims of this patriarcal fucked up world that puts more money and power in the authority of “men”, even fucked up men like him. They are all victims, but I needed to point out to him how he is victimizing all of them. Me, them, because he is a nobody with no standards, with now morality, with no core.

        It doesn’t build up my self-esteem to trash them. It returned my self-esteem to trash HIS choices because he will do anyone, it seems in the end. And for someone so somatic, so vain, so superficial, so shallow, I was glad to see it all for what it is. He ultimately is the gutter trash, not me or them. Sort of like the addict that will crawl through ash trays looking for a burnt up joint or desperately drink medicine looking for some faint alchohol buzz. Thats him. What a catch he was (not) but how he fooled me that he was.

        1. K says:

          I think people are trying to sort things out and make sense of it all. When I was going through Hell with my MMRN these were my favorite names: stupid-fat-cunt, loser, fat slob, smelly twat, faggot, homo, skank, fucktard and turkey. Nobody escaped my wrath, I think I even called the poor cat a cunt a few times and she was innocent.

          1. Narc Angel says:

            C’mon K!!! The cat? Unforgiveable.

            I understand all of those feelings and names towards the ABUSER.

          2. K says:

            Ha ha ha…I just lost my shit Narc Angel. Poor kitty! She didn’t do a damn thing wrong. All those names were directed at my MMRN, his boyfriend, his narc family, my narc family and I forgot this one: Cunty Biffles. I called all his girlfriends that. What can I say; I was on the war path.

          3. K says:

            Hopefully this copy and paste worked. I felt like the angry volcano in Moana. Hell hath no fury like an empath scorned.


          4. NarcAngel says:


            Well I must say that is quite a selfie, and possibly a concern for National Security. I do love your highlights.

          5. K says:

            Ha ha ha….thank you Narc Angel, those highlights flatter my angry eyes very well, and on a positive note, I have mellowed since being here. BTW your comment to DUTG re: new takes on some old standbys for the All Narc Network was an absolute riot!

          6. Narc Angel says:

            I too have mellowed since being here (ignore that racous laughter).

      5. Bibi says:

        Poor kitty!

      6. abrokenwing says:

        You are guilty of being mean towards other or potential victims of your narcissist.
        Therefore, taking into consideration your emotional state at the time of committing a crime you are ordered to
        1.write 5000 times and using Harry Potter’s quill ( the ink disappears while writing) ‘ I will not talk badly about the other victims ‘
        2 . More importantly- read more of HG Tudor books and other material available.

        Hopefully this will increase your understanding of dynamic between narcissists and their victims and make you feel more solidarity with other victims of narcissistic abuse regardless of their looks, social status and other qualities they may or may not poses.

        1. Narc Angel says:


          Is this meant in general or directed at someone specifically?

          1. abrokenwing says:

            In general.
            I agree with your observations Narc Angel.

  10. ava101 says:

    Actually … that’s interesting. Before reading here, I thought my mother was some form of co-dependent, but I was also very confused, as her behaviour is not conform to that in every regard.
    She does have some form of dependent personality disorder, but also not clear, if it’s not just an act, because she CAN do stuff independently if she chooses to.
    So … after consulting with master HG, it became clear that she is a narcissist indeed. I’ve watched and testet her behaviours ever since, and it is very clear.
    But I would term her a form of inverted narc for lack of a better description of her. She does make herself dependent on others and used to be a slave to my father, while exerting some control over my narc-father (and us of course) at the same time. When my father died, she was … kind of disorientated and the energy seemed gone, kind of deflated … but it came back astonishingly quick and she found new energy sources, and also uses her children, of course.
    One thing is for sure, though, she does not have empathy, she uses others and draws energy. But she is not your regular narc and noone from the outside would ever guess.
    Therefore, she is totally dependent on others, she is kind of inverted, and covert in the sense that it is not obvious at all.

    I do agree that some co-dependents appear to be kind of self-centered and not showing much real empathy, but I’ve never been with one, so I don’t really know. It seems though that it would be less egoistical to be self-reliant and not needing others, and then empathy in a non-attached way would be possible. But empathy to gain something from it … I don’t know.
    Just thoughts, I don’t really know, I find it confusing.

    1. DUTG says:

      I agree it gets very confusing. The constant defenses for me are establishing boundaries, paying attention to that intuitive feeling and saying no without guilt. The manipulations seem to be their constants regardless of the label. A distinction I’ve seen is that the emotions of some seem to be authentic, they truly fear being alone, not being able to survive on their own for things, etc. Their actions are based on being in their perceived survival mode in life, like they grew up in the Depression and have to hoard everything. And my emotional response is sympathy to an extent. I guess the same is true for narcs in that they are in survival mode too, but they don’t possess emotions and have the added bonus of sociopathic where they inflict it all for sport and that just pisses me off because it is calculated vs. reactive. I’m no expert though. These are just my thoughts too.

    2. ava101 says:

      Hello DUTG,

      thank you, yes, I understand. Absolutely true what you say about boundaries, intuitive feelings, and saying no without guilt. I’m still working on that, too, I am still making accuses for the behaviour of others all the time while not listening to my gut feeling. I got a lot better at feeling not guilty but still think endlessly about situations.
      How do you know if the emotions are authentic, how can you tell? And narcs also have fear of being alone …

      Interesting about the survival mode. My grandmother hoarded EVERYTHING after the war, my mother did, too … but strangely enough, my mother has simply stopped now and had no regrets at all throwing away stuff with idealistic values, or stuff with memories (especially the things that had some worth for me) … while she keeps the weirdest things ….

      Yes, survival mode is one thing, but knowing that one hurts other people another. 🙁

      I am done with sympathy for people who see no reason at all to look inside and at least look at their problems and make some effort.
      But HG said that some narcs (mid range) are reactive, too. Didn’t you, HG?
      That drives me crazy.

      But either way, they don’t care about how they affect others.
      My mother did a lot of things where one would think it was by accident, or just thoughtless, or short-sighted, but I don’t want to make excuses anymore, and she is not stupid at all.

      I guess with most people it’s about self preservation or survival of some sort …

  11. Bibi says:

    The 1st time I stumbled upon narcissism as something more than just the shallow, societal definition was reading about the ‘covert narcissist’. This was before your blog, so I was reading what sounded like a run of the mill Mid Ranger.

    Reading about the covert narcissist (even though the term is broad brushing) was my 1st ah ha moment, because up until that point I thought he suffered from ‘extreme passive aggression.’ I was not aware of any disorder.

    It was the 1st realization that indicated that I might not be bat shit crazy after all. (At least not for that, LOL.)

    And I find myself really at odds with the codependent type (the confusingly named ‘Inverted Narcissist’) I described above.

    They will do nothing about improving their lives or making any changes and instead will wait for things to happen to them (most likely a guy comes into their life and decides for them).

    But they will try to gain sympathy, but then when you give advice that involves taking action, making a change, or how to improve with a series of actual steps, they always find an excuse not to do it.

    I find that person very repellent, and I think the laziness/lack of action has a lot to do with it (the individuals I’ve known have never been able to hold even a part time job for more than a few weeks, as example).

    I’ve known victim narcissists/Lessers who do the same I find them equally repellent.

  12. geyserempath says:

    HG – Fair enough…I didn’t even know that was an option. I feel another consultation is in order soon as the prior have been beneficial.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Indeed it is, that’s the best forum for addressing that particular question given the need for more information and conveying my determination.

      1. Jasmine says:

        Hg, would you tell us if we are a narcissist?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          If you wanted to know and asked me the question, yes I would. Other than that there would be no point in telling the person.

          1. Jasmine says:

            Cool. Thank you.

      2. Bibi says:

        I do wonder, however. Would a narcissist really be here to uncover answers and seek advice? After a time, you’d think they’d begin to complain about something or esp. resent you, HG. because you’re the focus.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          The Lesser will indeed start to resent and they will keep talking about themselves and picking fights with other readers. A Mid Ranger would be more minded to curry favour with me but if they felt they were not getting appropriate attention there would be a shift in their behaviour and one would see passive aggressive comments being made (they also have a tendency to e-mail me so their facade on the blog is not disturbed but they can still attempt to draw a reaction from me ‘behind the scenes’ by complaining I am ignoring them for instance). The majority of readers are not narcissists, but there are a few who come by every so often. They will start of seeking answers because they do not realise what they are and they have either
          1. Been ensnared by a narcissist (as N v N action does happen) ; or
          2. Think they have been ensnared but they have not, because of their projection etc.
          Think about the Mid Rangers who run support sites – they do not realise what they are, they think they are empathic, they think they are helping people but as described in the article The Support Forum Fraud, the signs eventually show.

      3. narc affair says:

        If you were a narcissist you wouldnt ask that question. A greater would know they were and still wouldnt ask that question bc they dont care. Many take pride in their narcissism its viewed as a strength to them.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Correct, the others would not know and therefore would not ask.

  13. SarcNarc says:

    Hi HG,
    Thank you from here to today’s Super Blood Blue Moon for describing my recurring modus operandi. My situation might be a little different though, with his narcissism coming as a bonus with another genius-promising and not well managed disorder, detected by nobody else but his dedicated wife (AND lately, also from being intentionally hyped up, although using natural methods, hands all clean). Luckily enough, my own personality is oh so rare, some psychology folks say, with a significant paradoxical constituent, naturally built-in people-reading skills, and paired with bulls*it and micro-expressions detector. I might consider becoming the new Paul Ekman some day. Add my genuine (as in being “the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you Yourself”), abysmal sarcasm resources, and we get a nice and round Empathic Supernova when all of the systems go off at once. There’s another term for it in the psychology dictionaries and it goes “XXXX wrath”, which may lead to the popular “door slam” (an equivalent of your “discard”). And to make the challenge more interesting, Mr. Fate dealt me an Ace, which I have no way of discarding and now I can only imagine how the narcissistic discard method might not be the first and easiest of options for someone whose family members don’t happen to be members of the bar family as well, especially now that I know of the supernova phenomenon effects. One can only guess, even when they don’t mean to abuse it (and wouldn’t be allowed to just for the sake of some sick revenge). What’s been a boon can turn raccoon.

    Also, I have an equally long experience at fighting narcissism to his at embodying it – I started at the age of 3, count a few successful wins, and could never be sold much BS without eventually throwing it back at the vendor. I really wanted to make a deal with this one but then it gave me body ailments cos when things don’t add up they don’t and I learned to never forget that. I’m a linguist on top of all that, so those clever evasion tactics don’t get past me with the expected efficiency rate.

    While being (increasingly more:) aware of the level of the challenge, I still accept it with its consequences. Reasons are my own and reasoned. How well, we shall see. Want to wish me anything with that?

    And now you have gently pushed another, if imaginary, Ace card up my sleeve: come to discard/ door slam time, I can always console myself with the wild thought of hopping on a plane, not getting killed by terrorists and cheerfully seeking HG out to see if any of us can be bothered with a challenge. Imaginary triangulation, who would have thought.

    More seriously, I’d like to make requests, if you will. One request is for your take on (my favorite, his detested) sarcasm and how it is played out in your mind (I think you have a small sample of it in my comments if you need real-life inspiration or I can always dig out more from memory or as it comes – if you’d be willing to take your time with it.) I don’t mean failed attempts at being sarcastic just for the sake of it and not used for stating “how things just are and get over it” or sardonic comments meant to wound out of malice and for no purpose.

    Another thing I am interested in is, how you would want to be addressed/ spoken to/ explained things, which you normally try to disregard as criticism (and I mean in terms of language, I know the golden rule of praise, but that’s actually valid for the majority of men, even neurotypicals). I’m just asking and I thank you as always, H.G.!

    1. SarcNarc says:

      P.S. By fighting narcissists I just mean ocassionally getting them to see the wrong in their ways, I’m not out for any blood, quite the opposite actually. But I have my triggers and they pay out sometimes. Sometimess less.
      What’s more, I often associate with people exhibiting low to mid spectrum of narcissism or sociopathy, and I admit I like them alot energetically. I differentiate whom to associate with according to the intentions/ agendas I recognize. Might be totally subjective but I’d say mostly good and fun people!

  14. Medusa says:

    I read all the answers that you gave to the questions HG, brilliant! … in the brief interaction that we have with you in your blog, do you have the wit to realize the type of victim that we are? … is it evident in some cases?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you. I form views, yes.

      1. Insatiable Learner says:

        Sorry for making this about me, HG, but may I inquire if you have formed any views about me based on our interactions? Thank you so much!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I do on nearly all who comment.

      2. geyserempath says:

        Oh, HG – I would like to know your views on me…and I am betting others here would like to know as well…

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Of course you would. I do not express my views on the blog about how I regard people in terms of their classification. I do so through consultation, if the question is asked and I have sufficient information.

          1. Jasmine says:

            Just make sure you remember to ask! I was so nervous, I forgot 🤣

      3. Somewhere over the rainbow says:

        Our Great(er)…T(eacher)! Isn’t this somehow like giving “mental” grades (a teacher exchanging ideas with his students and seeing if they’ve well done their “homeworks”)?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          To some extent.

      4. Sarabella says:

        HG, how often do you see a disconnect between what someone says about themselves (as they learn, too and heal) and who they really seem to be?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Interesting point Sarabella. I do see this happen and whilst I have not kept a record of incidences so I can provide some statistics, it is not the majority situation. I would say it occurs around the 15-20% mark.

      5. raine turner says:

        Well, my land mines are all in place- now just need to sit and stay away from him (again) and watch and wait. I hope I find out what happens but if not oh well. I will wait at least one month before I contact you again for help—- IF I need help!

      6. Caroline says:

        Hey, HG…

        I know that you know that I know you know that I know.

        (There’s always one Lucy Ball in every group… you’re welcome!).

    2. raine turner says:

      Oh boy! I would HATE to find out what he thinks of me— other than silly, cra…cra… crazy woman!

      1. Jasmine says:

        lol.. funny raine! Except it could help us identify an approaching narc.

  15. Medusa says:

    I read all the answers I gave to the questions, HG brilliant !!!! … in the brief interaction we have with you in your blog, do you have the wit to be able to realize the type of victim we are? … is it evident in some cases?

  16. Kiki says:

    Recently I read that co-dependents are also one form of narcissism. Even though they are opposite of narc. I got confused when it was said that co-dependents lack empathy and they just want to be mistreated and given pain. He called them inverted narcissists/covert narc. How can co-dependent be a narc and not an empath? Or this applies on few only and not all co-dependents.

    I don’t agree here. What do you think HG?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hello Kiki,

      I also do not agree.

      There was reference to the co-dependent being a covert or inverted narcissist which is incorrect. It also stated co-dependents lack empathy, which is incorrect.
      It also referred to narcissists being co-dependent or counter co-dependent which if, by its explanation is the case, then the narcissist that is co-dependent must be covert or inverted which does not make sense.

      Co-dependents are not narcissists. They will have some narcissistic traits which are usually limited and weak to moderate. The co-dependent victim has an overwhelming need to be with a narcissist and gains validation, essentially by being such a giver to someone who is such a taker. The co-dependent victim has significant empathic traits ranging from moderate to very strong in nature. The co-dependent feels they cannot survive without being with a narcissist (although they usually do not realise this person is a narcissist).

      Whilst it can be argued that the narcissist is co-dependent because of our need for fuel, it confuses understanding to use such a word to apply to the narcissist. It is better state we have a reliance on the victim for the prime aims. Indeed, the relationship of victim and narcissist is symbiotic and where it is co-dependent victim and narcissist, the co-dependent craves at an intense level the involvement with a narcissist (along with other factors too which is too expansive to address here.)

      I do not like the phrase covert narcissist and do not use it because it is too broad brush. Covert behaviour can be found in both Mid Range and Greater Narcissists but they are different beasts.
      I do not use inverted narcissist either. This suggests the person is a narcissist (because the word is used) but they are not because the person this phrase describes is someone who has empathy but is very much bound to the narcissist and feels validation by being involved with a narcissist or narcissists. I expand on the co-dependent victim, how a person becomes this way, the traits involved and what they can do and how they are regarded by the narcissist in my book ‘Chained’ which if you have not done so already I recommend to you as you will find it both very interesting and helpful.

      1. Insatiable Learner says:

        Indeed, I have read “Chained” and it is an excellent book on the subject. Highly recommend it!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you.

      2. Bibi says:

        I agree about the inverted narcissist and have found the term misleading, even if I do understand what is being said.

        I have known codependents who are just that–dependent on their narcissist for an identity. They will change their interests to match the narcissist, have low motivation, (little to no job skills) excess people pleasers and seem to use their abuse/misery as a form of identity.

        They NEED an abuser (or think they do) because without one, they would be forced to focus on themselves, which terrifies them.

        The idea of ‘inverted narcissists’ are meant to be thought as codependents to the extreme, but I agree the term is greatly misleading.

        HG I also agree about the covert/overt use. Way too broad a brush. It’s like trying to classify someone according to how and when their mask slips. It doesn’t really matter, given they ALL have masks.

        This is why I have found your rankings, HG, most helpful, which involves more of a cognitive function/level of awareness.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you. Your observations in your second and third paragraphs are accurate.

      3. Kiki says:

        Thanks a lot HG
        I will read the book. At present i am reading fuel. I believe that these books will help my kids also. My daughter is aware of that her father is a narc With additional alcohol and borderline disorder. She behaves in a diplomatical way when she is with him.

        Do your old Appliances know about your blog?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you for reading.

          No, they do not, or if they do they are keeping quiet about knowing.

      4. Catherine says:

        Me too. I highly recommend « Chained ». I found it to be interestingly describing me in both my parental situation and the grown up relationship with the narcissist. It was some well needed truth about myself I needed to read.

      5. Star says:

        Very on point explanation HG! I read something along those lines as well as some point in time ( about co dependant being an inverted narcissist ) it’s information as such that can make a victim become even more traumatized, and slow the healing process. Thank you so much for your perspective!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are welcome.

  17. Narc Angel says:

    Very good Bekah.

  18. Mara says:

    Although the supernova reaction sounds interesting and plausible, I’m not sure I understand why it is necessarily limited to Super empaths, and does not apply to some regular empaths. It strikes me as counterintuitive even that only the most empathic would engage in that reaction, but perhaps I’m missing something.

    1. Bekah B says:

      You know, I agree with you, Mara, and I believe I understand where you’re coming from.. In this article, I think the main point HG is trying to illustrate is a Super Empath has very intense empathic traits, but after having continued abuse and devaluation levied against them at the hands of the narcissist, instead of completely breaking down in a moment’s notice and needing extended time to recover, like a co-dependent; or gradually withdrawing and possibly becoming “depressed” or “worn out” and feeling a need to isolate themselves for a short time period, like a standard empath; the Super Empath does not do either of these things, but rather stays in the relationship (if not temporarily disengaged from) and stands up to the narcissist and allows their own narcissistic traits that already exist to come to the forefront in order to fight against that devaluation..

      The Super Empath is more likely to very instinctively go “toe-to-toe” with the narcissist, deploying the appropriate manipulations against them in order to neutralize the effects of manipulations and devaluation the narcissist imposes.. More than likely, Super Empaths stay in the relationship with the narcissist because they truly love them and care and have the strong, burning desire to heal and help them (indicative of the carrier and savior sub-divisions of the empathic groups, according to HG), but Super Empaths also don’t like to be devalued and hurt, so they try to defend themselves and show the narcissist it is very possible for them to receive the same treatment they dish out.. (Of course, Super Empathic manipulations do not have an effect on the narcissist.. It is purely demonstration..) Super Empaths can either stay, or be instinctively compelled to leave the relationship and escape because they feel within themselves the urge to retaliate and that makes them feel uncomfortable because it goes against their strong sense of empathy..

      Thus, I really like this article describing supernova events.. It’s my opinion ANY person can engage in manipulation, whether it is learned and then applied, or comes instinctively to the person.. Supernova events are classified as such by our dear HG because they occur in the deeply feeling and highly empathetic people such as ourselves, and that, indeed, is counterintuitive and rare.. I believe any empath can have these supernova events occur.. But again, it is only relevant if in an engagement with the narcissist and to do so for ‘good’..

      ‘Good’: Trying to show the narcissist they are not the only one who can be the way they are and do the things they do.. We super empaths are, in fact, better because are born with empathy and narcissism and can display these traits at will..


      1. Mara says:

        Thank you for your thoughts on this, Bekah B.
        Much appreciated. 🙂

      2. Jess says:

        I disagree. Super empaths can make a narcissist feel like a codependent. We do wound them deeply. They don’t like it when you use their manipulations against them. They are deeply afraid of abandonment and other things. We leave our mark. But…the best thing is to leave and ignore. We miss them but we scar them the greatest.

    2. Somewhere over the rainbow says:

      Dear Mara,

      There’s no need for classifications, this is not an emphatic thing. It’s “emphatic” like maths towards students to say so.

      We can always educate and empower ourselves to act in our best interest (dealing with narcs) only by having healthy boundaries. We don’t have to “jump” in a relationship before testing the other for our trust. Prince Charming exists only in love movies and books. He’s not the real deal!

      Normals are not “Super Empaths”, still they won’t put up with narcs BS for long. The only difference is they won’t emotionally engage the way empaths do, thus there’s no fuel (or fun) and narcs drop them like hot potatoes.

      My guess is that being “normal” is the best thing, it keeps one out of troubles (no heartache -empaths, no headache-narcissists).

      1. HG Tudor says:


      2. Mara says:

        Somewhere over the rainbow

        “There’s no need for classifications, this is not an emphatic thing. It’s “emphatic” like maths towards students to say so.”

        Thank you but I fail to see why you are saying this to me since 1) I’m not the one who is proposing these classifications, 2) my comment was a response to the article’s classifications and my attempt to understand them, including the idea that apparently only super empaths have supernovas, 3) as far as I know, most people here classify as narcissists one or more people they have encountered and find use in doing so. For example, realizing that my friend displayed the behaviors of a narcissist and classifying him accordingly was a big game changer for me, for the better.

        That said, I recognize that people are complex and classifications have limitations but in my view well thought-out classifications can serve as behavior guides and have some use, however limited they may be.

        In fact, making the distinction between “normals” and “empaths” like you’re doing based on HG’s work is in itself a classification. Yes, I’m aware that there are “normals” but my comment was referring only to empaths and super empaths, per the article.

      3. Bibi says:

        I still believe one can be a ‘trained empath’ to where one has learned the tactics, has done enough self-work that the narc’s behaviour disgusts, and also drop like a normal would.

        Not every narc will work on every empath. I am sure that if any of us could swap narcissists with one another, we’d all be like…’ew!’

        Now that’s a new TV show for Trump, once he is out of office: Narc Swap.

        1. Narc Angel says:


          Haha. Good idea, but most of them dont know what they are and the rest would never allow themselves to be viewed as ‘swapped’ (that would be for the great unwashed as per HG). I could see presiding over the All Narc Network with shows such as Appliance Garage (Wooed, Chewed, and Recycled), Empath Carousel (an amusing little ride of a show that takes contestants to unprecedented heights of dizziness and and delusion), and Word Salad (where a panel of Empaths struggle to decipher a narc tirade within an impossible timeline and judged by a Narc so that there is never a winner and the network is not obligated to pay out any prizes).

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Wooed, Chewed and Recycled is very good. That now belongs to me.

          2. Narc Angel says:

            Haha. Of course it does. There are no witnesses to the contrary.

            ** Mouths: magical thinking while spinning my finger around my ear to the other empaths in the room **

          3. HG Tudor says:

            Absolutely my dear Narc Angel – see the Copyright section in the menu bar.

          4. Narc Angel says:


            Haha yes-I’m familiar with the house rules and you’re quite welcome.

          5. HG Tudor says:


          6. K says:

            I just read the copyright section. The only reason I took notes was for classroom purposes and because my memory sucked. My notes are ONLY used here BTW.

          7. HG Tudor says:

            That’s not a problem K.

          8. K says:

            Phew! I didn’t want to be banished from the realm. Thank you.

          9. HG Tudor says:

            Thats not going to happen K.

          10. K says:

            Excellent HG. I am really starting to connect the dots now, and I am ready to begin post grad work.

      4. Somewhere over the rainbow says:


        I sent my message to you because I saw your comment and I thought my opinion might be helpful. All I tried to say is I agree with your point and also that classifications are not an empathic “tool”. They divide empaths from narcissists (helped people go NC, GOSO…witch is a good thing) but classifications also have the “ability” to turn empaths against empaths.

      5. Mara says:


        “I sent my message to you because I saw your comment and I thought my opinion might be helpful. All I tried to say is I agree with your point and also that classifications are not an empathic “tool”. They divide empaths from narcissists (helped people go NC, GOSO…witch is a good thing) but classifications also have the “ability” to turn empaths against empaths.”

        Thank you. I’m not sure what you mean by saying that classifications are not an empathic “tool” as I respectfully suggest that 1) therapists and other healers, some of which are likely empaths, work with classifications on a regular basis as part of their job; 2) HG’s writing, which many empaths here regard as a helpful tool for them, is largely based on making classifications of all kinds; 3) what people do with classifications is their* responsibility. Classifications in themselves have no ability to do anything, much less “turn empaths against empaths”, a statement which, again, I don’t understand.

        In any case, I think we can agree that classifications have their value and it is up to individuals to not misuse them to the detriment of themselves or others.

      6. Somewhere over the rainbow says:


        Yes, we agree!


      7. DUTG says:

        Bibi and Narc Angel, very funny stuff! How about twisted versions of game shows like The Narc is Right’ or ‘Jeopardy’ or ‘Who Wants to be an IPPS’???!!!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Don’t you mean ‘The Narc is Always Right’?

        2. Narc Angel says:


          Speaking of twisted, heres some new takes on some old standbys for the All Narc Network:

          Sorry (Not Sorry)
          Connect Three (Triangulation Edition)
          Chutes and Pedestals
          My Operation (Victim Edition)
          Nothings Taboo

          1. Jasmine says:

            “Sorry not sorry” lol. Love those narc angel! Xx

      8. DUTG says:

        Oh the countless ‘Narc Narc’ jokes…’Narc narc.” ‘Who’s there?’ I’m so on board with the All Narc Network, all day, all night, in stereo lol. Maybe James Corden can be a host (wink wink)!

        1. HG Tudor says:


          1. Jasmine says:

            careful ! The beast is growling

      9. sarabella says:


        I believe so, too. Being highly empathic and intuitive is fine and all, but like all beings, we need to evolve, too. And we need to learn that life is brutal and inherently unfair and that empathy and love can only go so far in life. We must learn psychologcial self-defense. Emotional self-defense. My dauther is just like me. I am frightened for her but I have been teaching her that she to learn to turn off her empathy to control her power. And an empathic and intuitive reality is very powerful, but it is also a great weakness and she must learn to embrace it when needed and turn it off as needed. Then she will be whole. Then I will be whole. Then empaths will be safer.

        Any personatlity or character traits that exists very far to one spectrum can become very negative. Whether is narcissism on the far extreme side or empathy. Any extremeness is to me a symptom of great imbalance even when the personality traits seem so positive like a caring empath.

        I hope there will be more one day, but there are some blogs and writings out there about empaths becoming ‘trained’. I learned alot from them. But as its come up elsewhere in these comments to this post, people hold against empaths when they do become the opposite of how people think of empaths. I think its destructive to a empath learning to train herself to walk both sides of this experience, both the loving and compassionate side and the side of being able to slice through people quickly as needed.

        An example… I set my narc up as I wast testing out what I had learned here. I had wanted to see if I could apply HG’s techniques myself. I found I could. I had learned enough about how this works to do this: I set him up to ask me for help. He had asked me for it before, but really, he never asked me directly, he had manipulated help out of me and money. So I set him up to ask it directly. And when he did, I slammed him, “Why ever would I help you? You couldn’t even treat me well.” I was more specific and he raged off but not blocking. But do you know how HARD that was for me? Even when I last saw, he really needs help on something, a webpage in English and English is not his first language but he writes it well but its still so full of horrible mistakes. It has taken much out of me to not use that as a reason to reconnect with him. To help him. Show him compassion. To care for him as I have wanted to by fixing his site. I had even done re-writes and then I delete them. But this has gone against every fiber of what my soul wants to do. And that is training to me. Train myself to feel what I feel, but do nothing. Oh, he would take my help, but give nothing back. And I would just feel depleted. And that is a fact and that fact is what trains me to not ever reach out to help. HG said somewhere, we can’t not be empathic. Maybe. But maybe we can learn to feel these ways with people, but do nothing. No action. No reaction. Just learn to feel it all and not act on it. That is where I am at in my own self-training.

        1. Jasmine says:

          Please excuse my interrupting, but I don’t understand the logic here. Why set him up and then purposely be cruel? What did you take away from that?

          1. sarabella says:

            I wanted to see how manipulation worked if what HG descibed was possible for anyone to do. To see if he was even telling the truth. To see how easy it was to do or not. It was that simple an explaination. I did it twice and that was that. I got no enjoyment out of it long term other than a big wow, so that is how it all worked. I had a surge of power and saw how addictive it could get. I saw what you needed to do to get someone to behave as you wanted. It was a chilling moment for me. I was deeply sad after. And then I never did it again.

    3. sarabella says:

      I asked myself that question and after reading more here and there, this is what I concluded. A co-dependent, empath and super empath in my guess, not a rule, all had some level of abuse, neglect or trauma of some kind in their life. Like HG’s sister became a co-dependent, he became a narc. Two responses likely adopted due also to gender. But both experienced the same household, they just responded and survived differently. Personality, genetics, gender all playing some role in how they evolved.

      I bet it has something to do with what a codependent, empath or super empath experienced and when and how they responded as children. I have always been a scrapper from my response to medical trauma. It was later that significant other abuse, neglect and trauma created other parts to my personality to survive. But I always had that scrapper fighter in me and this is what fueled my super nova reaction. If I were mostly co-dependent, I would collapse before fight like I did because co-dependency is alot about total dependence. I have been more than an empath because my life experiences have been extreme. At times, I probably did become more narcissistic just to cope with the family abuse and humiliation and shame dumped on me. But my early trauma had already set me aside to be different than most people. I was full self-aware at 3 but self-awareness doesn’t really happen until much later, usually I think more like 6 or so increasing as the child ages. I was fully aware I was different by 6 and could already read people, hear their thoughts, had strange clairvoyant experiences over time. But I had also learned to fight for myself early on, too. TO depend on no one and nothing. WE moved a whole lot.

      So I think the answer to your question is in what part of someone’s life experiences made them one of those three and how much was genetic and innate, they were likely going to have evolved that way anyway. I have been told my whole like I am different, not like other people. have a beautiful aura, and a light. And very beautiful but that sense of self-beauty within me was damaged badly and is what a narc sees. But I am powerful. I have also been told that I am tough, true grit, fiercely independent. Hence, why I would be more likely to go into a supernova empath mode and for a prolonged time, too. I had to learn to stop it (see all the posts here where I mention it) and to stop blowing like a volcano and that he was badly wounded and we were done.

      This doesn’t really answer your question, but I think it does in a way.

      1. Mara says:

        Thank you for your thoughts, Sarabella

  19. Sarabella says:

    His last words to me were, “We are good why can’t you just chill, why do you want to fight, go back to that old chapter?” Why? Cause he should never have done what he did and I will never forget or forgive. He said if I can’t chill then that’s that. OK, then, THAT IS THAT. Challenge accepted.

    1. Bekah B says:

      Love this, Sarabella.. He sounds like my narc.. He said, “Can we just be kids again? Before we got dependent on our mental abilities and were just taking things for what they were..”

      Kids, alright.. Lol! He acknowledged I was being a bit more mindful with him, rather than blindly emotional.. And he didn’t like it.. Congrats to you for accepting the challenge and not turning back!

      1. geyserempath says:

        Sarabella and Bekah B: Wow…sounds like mine, too. After a year of him calling me every Friday night (he couldn’t call more frequently, because “we aren’t twenty anymore”), and seeing him every Saturday for dinner and overnights (only on Saturdays) , I pressed for a commitment or at least a FB status change. I also finally called him out on friending all these women he didn’t know on FB. He told me “what I propose is we take a step back, take a weekend off, and get together out somewhere to have a drink and chat and kinda go back to how it was when we just enjoyed getting together because we had fun together and liked being around each other for it was more fun when before we had to be this power couple that the whole world had to know about.” Now I had met all his family, and friends…so what was the big deal? There are times when I go back to wondering if he was just a nice, normal guy that I pushed too far. But that is not logical thinking.

      2. Bekah B says:


        Wow, it is uncanny how these narcissistic people say very similar things.. Mine, too, tried to create a circular conversation about changing our FB relationship status.. He said he didn’t understand why he had to make other people aware we were together.. Narcissists can say the slightest thing to make you really and truly consider their perspective and then begin to question your own.. That’s the main thing I didn’t like about being in this dynamic: Identity Erosion through the creation of excessive self-doubt..

      3. Mercy says:

        Haha mine said he liked me better when I believed the lie.

      4. sarabella says:

        The kids part will always hurt. He has learned about ‘inner child’ and adult person to people, and when he was luring me to visit, after setting me up to let my guard down, he said he wanted to make sure that “Little Sarabella” could handle it. LIttle Sarabella who he rejected on purpose first time, he had to have known wasn’t going to handle what he did again. Especially as he had told LIES about what had happened in his heart around me a long time ago. He wanted to ‘enjoy’ Little Sarabella, but Big Sarabella needed to take care of Little Sarabella (when he crushed her again). Evil, evil person. So when Little Sarabella poured out her hear to him, he just went, I, big Evil Liar, can’t take this infatuation even though he was begging for it before. Oh, he wanted the kids part again. And he didn’t like when mindful raging supernova Big Sarabella came out to slit his throat.

        Keep walking away. No undoing the past now. There are no do-overs in life.

  20. Sarabella says:

    So me. I played him back on levels once I got some of how he manipulated. Then, yes, satisfied I made my mark, blamed him for all of it, stopped all efforts to communicate. I was done. Tired, worn out, to saddened by it all. We had an EPIC battle and then I finally put my sword down and walked. Still sad about it. But it was over and time to erase him, too.

  21. Sunniva says:

    So you have to be a SE to reach the SN mode.
    Are the other links between school and cadre like this? Meaning; do you find all the different cadres within all of the three empathic schools?

  22. Liris CrIstina says:

    My fascination & addiction to my NARC began three years ago, he is 20 years my junior & quite the cunning, charming & elusive young man not to mention an exceptional lover at that. Up until April of last year I was under his spell & found it very hard to detach myself from him. I HAVE NEVER MET ANYONE LIKE HIM IN MY ENTIRE LIFE, I wasn’t even sure his kind had a name till last October whereas I was constantly looking for answers as to why I found it so very difficult to resist him & stay away from him. The whole hoovering thing has left me so scared he was always crossing boundaries i.e. showing up at my house announced & claiming me like i was his propert,y like I was a possession to him! I am a SuperNova Empatch & quite narcissistic myself & it wasn’t till i completely eradicated him from my life & went NO CONTACT, including changing my cell phone number that I have been able to successfully escape from his psychological & sexual hold on me! There are certain women that are convinced that they can convert a Narc or change their sadistic, evil ways, but in my humble opinion their attempt will be futile because the Narc always knows your weaknesses & uses them against you every chance you allow them to infect you, they’re like a disease of which their is NO CURE for other than complete & total removal from your life…. Bury them & give them a proper burial…. They deserve it…..

  23. Wanda Lee says:

    Having Identified myself as a super empath, I don’t believe I will be hoovered, because I inflicted pain and caused my Greater Narsissist an injury. That was quite awhile ago as I’ve previously stated. In doing this purposely, I wanted to be absolutely sure that he would never return in my life for any reason. I think I was too much for him to ever deal with again.
    Am I only fooling myself; or am I right to believe he’s gone for good?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Do not be complacent Wanda, there always remains a risk.

  24. Somewhere over the rainbow says:

    Confronting the narc (using both yours and his “weapons”) helps you only when still in a relationship (emotional thinking). As soon as you’ll use the logic, you’re out of that toxic entanglement. I taught myself, while still in relationship and after that, away from him, to discipline my emotions and I did that (to a certain/possible extent) as I wanted to have his cool logic (not the narcissistic one, the intellectual one). That was far harder than having a relationship with him. I believe he was my “life” teacher and he did his “job” by making me stronger (he knew all the way I’ll grow stronger from every confrontation with him, that’s why he didn’t hoover me in years and no, he won’t, he fears getting wounded -he did it twice and it was 2-0 for me, but…he let me understand I am welcome whenever I “please, keeping in mind what he can give me and what he can’t” and if he’s with someone else, I should be very discreet – one of my top traits and he knows it – I would never make a public scene, go to the other one or stalk him. Of course I won’t accept that “offer”, but he took good care for me to know, even if I know the real him (he is aware of that). He “felt” free being himself with me, he told me he’s relieved he shouldn’t lie or pretend anymore near me, something consuming his energy). No, I don’t fear narcissists but I won’t confront them on purpose (because I know I have nothing to gain or to prove)! If possible, I’ll elegantly ignore them, if not possible, I know what buttons to push!
    I’m not tempted to go back, not for a second. But knowing his fury is worse than him just thinking he still has me…Oh, and no keeping in touch or friends! If he ever hoovers, I’ll ignore.

    The one hoovering me now is a lesser, younger than I am. We never met, never touched, only some talking (friendly talking, no sexual pictures, he tried to obtain them, conditioning our talking on that but I never did it, it goes against my principles) and he wanted our talks to end-maybe he found a real source and I said “of course” and end it. Time after, he begins texting from various numbers, asking for “a response”.

    After getting to know very well an upper MR in real life and a Greater (you) from this site, one can easily see a lesser (he wants to manipulate without having self discipline or wanting to sort things out in his life…he only complains and criticises all day long, that’s plain boring). His own aim is marrying a rich girl but rich girls usually have narc dads and they don’t want a lesser in their families; now, he is still young and handsome, but not keeping the good mental and physical shape the MR -who could be his father but who’s very efficient and not so self indulging- keeps.

    1. Jasmine says:

      I agree on lessons… it’s the only way I can see these -things- like the narc- that happen in life. I believe it’s healthy to take that attitude. As long as you heal and protect yourself as well!

      And you are right. Rich girls have narc *parents that don’t want lessors in the family! (I have a matrinarc, empath dad) They keep a tight reign on things. 🙃 I just go with the flow

      1. Somewhere over the rainbow says:


        Of course I protect myself, I couldn’t stand a narc near me for long even If I try. When I was a little girl, I walked with a cactus spin in my foot some distance before my parents gave me credit for saying the truth. I compare narcs to cactus spins- you want them out (even if you know it will hurt anyway). Still, you can’t live with them, sooner or later you have to remove them from your life and the sooner, the better.

        The longest I could resist in a relationship with a narc without breaking up was…3 months and I perceived those months as years. I can’t believe what I’ve been through in such a short time…yes, it was “war” ( “a real battle of wills ensues as each combatant deploys manipulation after manipulation against one another. This hammer and tongs clash of the titans…”). It was an “IQ, manipulations, silent treatments, mental power struggle” kind of fight, not a “physical” one.

        That “cactus spin” hurt like hell, but taught me a lifelong lesson. 😉

      2. sarabella says:


        Yes, to the last paragraph.Epic battle of wills and angry spiting words back and forth. He pretended to not be an instigator, that it was all me, but after learning here the ways they provoke, I began to see it all and realized he also had a choice. Not provoke but to love. And that last wasn’t ever going to happen. We fought like mad and I even once told him, if we were in the same room, we would resolve it by fucking like mad (if he could, but his tiny penis and all! poor guy, that was before I knew that truth), or, we would have started to physically hurt each other. He verbally threatened me that way via text, I later told him if he had ever even tried it in real life, I would have killed him.

        So the fighting was mostly psychological, verbal and emotional, even emotional for him within the capacity of his feelings. I learned to provoke his rage and wound him as I wanted to, when I wanted to.

        Would I do it that way again if I knew what I know? No. But it has served me in other areas of my life. I now have a firm wall up with narc mother who just hoovered me yesterday. I boxed up all the guilt and ignore it and use that fight streak he taught me to better my life. I trigger so much less in life. He told me so many times to learn to control myself, to watch my tongue. Only until I was done smashing him, did I learn those lessons and I control myself now and watch my tongue and in other ways in life, too. I get so much less hung up on trivial emotional things and shrug much off as not my circus, not my monkey. He taught me that. But it was a lesson learned the hard way, I must admit. I never knew I had so much rage in me that I finally let out. And he got it from the 14 year old girl he badly hurt AND from the adult woman.

        In all this, I had a black panther come to me in my dreams a few times. If you believe in animal totems, its one of the most powerful animals there is and is rare to come to people. This was not long after my visit to him when I dreamped of devil snakes. That panther helped me to learn to fight, to stalk him psychologically, to be crafty and to one up him.

        And then I just got tired one day. We were done. I knew I got back what he had stolen, and then it was time for me to just stop. It was hurting my life to by staying in such a nuclear warrior mode. So I just stopped. Threw in my last words that i was the wrong person to have ever hurt by his by his games as he had hurt me so badly before and then that was it. No communication going on 11 months now and I feel better. But I have my moments, so I come back here for my re-inoculation as to why I must never break my contact with him. Ever. I come back mostly when I am going through another mini grieving cycle and feel I might just forget and in a bad moment, send something. But it would only be a moment and it will pass but reopening that door would be really bad.

      3. Somewhere over the rainbow says:


        NC is the real prove we’ve learned those lessons! Rational thinking, never forget! 😉

    2. Bekah B says:

      I love it, Somewhere Over The Rainbow! Awesome! Congratulations on not having sustained an extended relationship with a narc because of the struggle and your intolerance of it.. You’re absolutely right.. It is like a mental power struggle and battle of the wills.. It is so time consuming and draining of my empathy that could be shining bright instead..

      1. Somewhere over the rainbow says:

        Bekah B,

        I wish all people here had my “tolerance” to narcs. I’m really sad because some of the narcs took years from empaths lives…but I still believe it is never too late to learn and get free.

        I lost more professionally because of narcs but I won’t give up. Just taking the time to raise my boy and after he’ll become independent and strong enough I’ll devote myself to professional purposes (this will also be a way to “train” my mind away from him, I don’t want to control or “ghost” him, maybe giving some advices now and then, but I’ll always leave the choices up to him-about his life and I’ll be there for him when he needs me. I’m not raising him for me but for him. I only want him “to bloom” into
        a good man). That’s mostly why I’m here, on this blog…I want to find out how to raise a normal boy. I have my share of narcissistic traits and I don’t want them to negatively influence my child (he also has narcissistic traits as far as I can see or at least a strong resistance to boundaries, raising him is not an easy task). I love him so much I’m able to defend him even against my “monsters” if that makes any sense. I appreciate HG’s help on that, too. I read about raising children and learn as much as I can.

  25. Jess says:

    This is my favorite video of yours. It is empowering and always makes me cry. It’s hard for an empathic person to worrry that they might be the narcissist. This made so many things clear.
    The ULN gave me 20 stitches over 9 years..he couldn’t control his rage. My LGN knew to stay away from me, giving me space. I withdrew when angry instead of “let’s sit and talk.” This drove him nuts.. he got no fuel. The MMR would stranger mode and silent treatment or sulk…constantly. After him I felt like I was losing my mind. He had me spinning. He was not as cruel and was “special”. This is when I figured out what narcissists are and that I had been at war for the last 30 years. The nature of the betrayal is still hard to think about. Instinctively and with no effort or remorse silent treatments were used against them. I was able to lie, triangulate them, treat them like strangers, etc. I loved all three of them and didn’t want to do these things but was hurt deeply. Nothing made me more high then being witth my narcissists and it was a hard crash when I was knocked to the ground.
    We lose in the end. We feel.

    1. DUTG says:

      “We lose in the end. We feel.” Great words, so true. To truly win is to accept that we can never win in this entanglement because of how we are made and because of how they are made. Better to put our energies elsewhere. Take a walk. Feel the warmth of the sun. Plant a garden. Smile at a child. Get life back with things that produce real joy. Staying entangled feels dirty and dark and foggy. So nice to step off of the ride and stop spinning.

    2. K says:

      “We lose in the end. We feel.”

      Very well put, and accurate.

    3. Somewhere over the rainbow says:

      Dear Jess,

      We don’t lose, we LEARN! We gain more access to our rational side, we LEARN to better control ourselves in the most difficult situations (generally speaking: family, work, relationships). We become wiser with each passing day and experience because we are open to change, having infinite possibilities, using more of our brain is something achievable but learning real, not cognitive empathy…we all know how “we should behave”, but crying for someone else when no one sees you and you won’t get something out of doing it, this is another story…

      1. sarabella says:

        I have always been bothered by this “never fight a narc, you will always lose”. Something in that has always been so wrong. Sort of how HG claims we are never discarded for good and how that one got going.

        Aside from violent sociopaths, I lost only when I caved and didn’t fight. But we didn’t have a geographic proximity.

        I won when I fought back. I won when I learned how afraid I was to love and he became the teacher and I used him and the situation to encourage more love in my heart and life. I won when I forced him to pay me back money he tried to walk off with. I won when I went after him so badly, he finally said he couldn’t take the stress anymore. I assume it was true. I won when I found out what he is really about sooner than later and started to fight to get out. He could have played me on for years but my intuition had been going crazy and I didn’t entirely ignore it. I won when I go to reverse all the put downs he used to control and hurt me. I won when I got to find out why he is in part a narc and a somatic one. That tiny penis is the driving force of all of his evil. I won when he didn’t ruin my marriage and in fact, sex is better than ever and its solid and I am content. I won when I see he is still alone except for all the supply he juggles. I won when I warned some poor girl and their whatever fell apart and he now barely boasts on social media. Which was my intent, to curb his posting bragging shots of false relationships with young beautiful women. He hasn’t done that since I reached out to one of his victims to warn her. I won when I am well off and he is just a dirt poor nobody and I made sure he heard that from me. I won so, so many things.

        I just didn’t win him. But whatever I guess.

    4. Jasmine says:

      I’m sorry Jess. *hugs I know how you feel.. my narc was violent too.

    5. Raine says:

      Thank you! For another trick I can use now— withdraw— and NOT want to talk— while he is very busy hoovering me! Thank you!!!!

    6. Bekah B says:


      Goodness.. Your reply brought me to tears.. I’m so sorry.. I can relate when you say some of your best times and highs were while with these narcissists.. It is a very hard crash back down to the ground when you’re left to put back together the pieces of your heart that does, indeed, feel.. Please try to consider it as a gain of knowledge about these type of fascinating people (narcissists), rather than a loss.. Be proud of your capacity to be deeply feeling and also to display mild narcissistic traits.. You’re a winner!

  26. Bekah B says:

    7. Smearing – (But for a POSITIVE cause) To smear means to slander and it implies lying is involved.. In this case, I did not lie.. I actually exposed him and told the truth to his superior about him using bank accounts fraudulently.. This tainted his name and reputation in that organization.. But instead of smearing it through mud and gunk, I did so through soap and water.. I cleaned up the lies he told and the truth was revealed..

  27. Bekah B says:

    6. Triangulation – Towards the end, when it got really bad, I used to pretend to be calling from another one of his sources’ phone number and call yet another source he was with at that time!This would make him upset with that fake phone number source and have him to believe she was spying on him.. My hands were totally clean.. Lol (so bad, i know)

    1. geyserempath says:

      Well done, Bekah B! I hope to get to the point of doing what you did and then ending it and going NC.

      1. Bekah B says:

        You will, Geyser.. Hang in there and stay strong!! *hugs*

      2. Raine says:

        I am being hoovered now— and I am playing the phone game with him…… He knows another man is interested in me– (I have not and will not sleep with this other man—- so my supernova traits are showing) but it is fun to watch his face when my phone buzzes in my purse– and I say “no matter- probably my son” and I make no effort to take my phone out of my purse! His ex-wife did call last night and he made a point of showing me who it was– then turned his phone off—–

  28. Bekah B says:

    5. Mirroring – I did this, but innocently.. Aside from being a narcissist, he is still an individual with certain little quirks about him.. Just by knowing him for so long and being around him often, I picked up on some of these things and would do them too.. He would point them out all the time and say he couldn’t have anything of his own.. Lol.. He displayed playful agitation.. But deep down I believe he may have been proud to see me becoming an extension of himself..

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You do realise that all of these steps are causing you to continue to engage with narcissist in some form? Some of them are appropriate for a short time in the context of an ongoing entanglement, for instance imposing your own silent treatment rather than providing fuel, but doing this feeds your emotional thinking, continues to cause your engagement (even though you think you are ‘winning’) when what you should be doing is getting out and staying out. A sustained campaign whilst entangled or close to escape or disengagement is the product of emotional thinking – it is different if this occurs after 6 months of solid no contact as logic then prevails.

      1. Bekah B says:

        Yes, HG, I do realize that all of the steps listed here are indicative of being engaged with the narcissist.. But I can assure you, they are all past tense.. These are the things I did when I returned to my narcissist after being hoovered multiple times throughout the years.. And as Somewhere Over The Rainbow mentioned, these things were only of use while in the relationship/engagement.. Currently, I am coupling my newfound knowledge of manipulation tactics and narcissistic traits described here in your lovely articles with my introspection of how I behaved in my relationship, (especially towards the end of it), and just labeling some of the things I did while with him.. Again, these were highly instinctive–I didn’t quite realize what I was doing until after reading this article and many other articles about manipulation and other narcissistic traits.. And I’m definitely not a narcissist! I also may not be a full-blown super empath, but I do identify with having experienced several empathic supernovas..

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you for the clarification and it is evident you did have supernovas from what you have described.

      2. Insatiable Learner says:

        HG, I wish 6 months was all it took for the logic to prevail. Alas! I have not seen the narc since almost two years ago. I did not contact him for 7 months at some point when I finally sent him a happy birthday text and he briefly and benignly responded. Then i talked to him again by text and phone 3 months later for a few days all initiated by me. All benign communication until he asked for some space for him and his primary to work on some personal issues with a promise of future contact. It has now been nearly 4 months since then. I am feeling better and stronger but the emotions are still quite strong and the pain is still palpable. I have been binge reading and watching videos on NPD all this time. Why is it taking me so long?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Yes, six months is a guideline, a smaller number of people may achieve utilising logic a month or two earlier and a larger number may take longer.
          You may not have seen the narcissist in two years but as you admit there has been intermittent communication with him and this :-

          1. Rekindles the emotional infection rather than keeping it a low level;
          2. Allows your emotional thinking to surge and if you do not get it under control, it remains high. You may not have any communication with the narcissist but you will have been talking about him to people and thinking about him and the situation and thus feeding the infection.

          Thus it takes some people longer because that is the way they are ‘built’ but moreover it is because you have breached no contact and not got the emotional thinking under control and purged the emotional infection effectively. You are making progress however.

      3. Insatiable Learner says:

        Thanks so much, HG! I really appreciate your invaluable insight! What hurts the most is high much unearned trust i put in this man and how much benefit of the doubt I have extended to him, being there for him all the time and never asking for anything in return, never really calling him on his behavior, thinking he cared about me, he was at least a friend, only to then be confronted with how used, manipulated, lied to, and betrayed I was.

      4. Bekah B says:

        And thank you too, HG..

      5. Raine says:

        Okay, so I am still too raw to be playing this game? HG- you and I have communicated by email- over Christmas—- and now he is hoovering me intensely—- I am letting him so I can gather ‘fuel and facts” I am playing the game but in my mind– I am cool, detached and very focused on what I am doing.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Viewed objectively you remain in/close to the ‘war zone’ and therefore this continued engagement is both being driven by emotional thinking and is running a high risk of adverse repercussions and/or ensnarement again. Emotional thinking is cunning – when you are in the ensnarement or it is a recent escape/disengagement (less than 6 months) it makes you think that you can handle the narcissist, that you are in control, that you know what you are doing etc and therefore it is causing you to enter the lion’s den once again. At this time you remain too susceptible to emotional thinking overflowing, you have not had long enough to purge the emotional infection and to build logic defences and therefore it will go wrong in some way. You think it won’t but that is your emotional thinking dictating you – you have to have had that ‘firebreak’ from the engagement with the narcissist and the reduction in emotional thinking and the emotional infection and the only way that happens is for a period of time to pass – usually 6 months plus.

    2. Catherine says:

      That’s interesting with the time frame. I started to feel after about three months that something in me shifted ever so slightly. Before that everything seems dark and blurry with emotions running high. I started to read, acquire knowledge from you HG and to understand a bit of what I’d been through. At least my logical thinking had an awakening of some sorts. After about five months I had a setback when I broke No Contact after Christmas and then thought I’d had to start all over again which wasn’t the actual case. Now six months on I feel that I’ve left the worst grief and and even anger behind me. I’ve come to learn so much about myself through this devastating process and I’m proud of where I am at. I still get emotional from time to time, it creeps up on me almost unexpectedly when my guard is down but what I’ve learnt is to breathe deeply and just replace the emotions with logic; removing myself through reason from the pain and it works!!!

      1. geyserempath says:

        Catherine – Good for you for moving on and healing! Keep that up.

      2. Catherine says:

        Thank you geyserempath! I wish the same for you!

  29. Bekah B says:

    4. Present Silent Treatments – I’ve engaged in a couple of these to where he felt led to ask me what is wrong.. There was something he did to hurt me in order to cause these, though.. I wasn’t doing them just for the hell of it and to put forth negative fuel.. It was more like shutting down and no longer providing any fuel for him.. I also would do silent treatments through texting, where I would deliberately not reply to his messages if, again, I knew of him doing something wrong in our relationship.. He didn’t think I knew about it and would ask me what was wrong.. I’d just ignore him..

    1. narc affair says:

      Ive done present silent treatments as well but ive never fully ignored him more being quieter than normal so again…he asks whats wrong. This i see as a narc trait.
      Ive also not gotten back to his messages for a few hours bc im upset and didnt want to give him my time.

  30. Bekah B says:

    3. Blame-shifting – I can recall numerous times we had discussions where I would blame shift occurrences either back to him or extraneous factors.. I’m a person who is much too focused on specific topics and subjects to have engaged in word salad or circular conversations.. That would have been confusing for me.. Lol.. But he did use those tactics on me and eventually I became privy to them and learned how to drive the topic back home, successfully..

    1. shawn singh says:

      Bekah, Nicely done.

      1. Bekah B says:

        Thank you, Shawn Singh.. 😉

    2. narc affair says:

      Hi bekah…what youve listed here ive also done with the exception of confronting any of his sources which i have no interest in doing. Im certain my narc has other supply sources and i harbour no bad thoughts towards them bc theyre just like me. Also itd do no good anyways bc he would keep seeing them. You cant control a narcissist. Ive never considered myself a superempath.
      A lot of the traits you mention can be borderline traits as well not to say you have bpd. Empaths can have strong narc traits too as pointed out in the superempath classification.
      Ive mirrored my narc in things he says or becoming interested in his hobbies and taking them as my own to create more of a bond. Thats not to say i havent enjoyed it in the process. One might say im taking an interest in him and i think thats a good quality. Mirroring too in the way ive picked up quirks or sayings of his and adopted them. This has not at times been intentional but more from the time spent with him.
      Criticism…ive done this intentionally and even triangulated him but its always been done in retaliation. I never set out to do this to gain attention or fuel. Its done bc hes been devaluing me and i retaliate to put a stop to it.
      Blame shifting…i cant say ive done this that i can think of off hand. Im pretty good at admitting when im at fault. Sometimes ive been guilty of not being as understanding in certain situations if ive felt insecure or lied to.
      Silent treatment…yes guilty. Ive learned this well from my mum. With my narc i do take a break from him for a day or two if hes done something hurtful. Its part to let him know im upset but also bc i need space.

      1. Bekah B says:

        Hi Narc Affair,

        Thanks for your reply.. Hmmm.. I did not consider BPD.. Since reading your reply I have researched this disorder.. I agree with you, 100%, when you mention picking up little traits and quirks just as a result of having spent extended time with the person.. I guess that’s normal, in any relationship.. (Of course, not to the narcissist.. They steal character traits to add to the arsenal of their façade..) I see your criticism was intentional and in retaliation of being devalued.. Usually I realized I criticized my narc when he gave me a certain look, like the one described above, or if he disappeared on me for a few days after discussing with him something I felt he did was wrong and how it hurt me.. When he would devalue me, take advantage of me, etc., I always found myself explaining to him in detail what he did and how it was wrong.. Of course he feels he is never wrong, so this was criticism to him.. Silent treatments: Yes.. Engaging in them because you were hurt.. I did the same, after a while.. In the early years, I got on my soap box and had those lengthy explanation campaigns I just mentioned.. After a while, I just shut down, realizing it was pointless to express my feelings because he wasn’t going to get it and would not change.. I found if he did not hear from me for a minimum of three days, he would definitely reach out and question my absence.. I would just tell him some made up story, after a while.. That reminds me.. I did not mention lying.. A classic narcissistic trait.. But EVERYONE lies, from time to time..

        1. Narc Angel says:

          It could be argued that Empaths lie almost as much as Narcs do-only its to themselves.

          1. Twilight says:

            Narc Angel

            I couldn’t agree more

          2. K says:

            Ditto that.

      2. narc affair says:

        Hi bekah…ty for your reply. So much of how you describe your relationship is how it is in mine. Ive done the lengthy explanation of what he did and why it hurt me but now im more selective. In the first few yrs i didnt know what a narcissist was or that he was one and id let all emotion take over and tell him my innermost thoughts and insecurities. Id tell him why he had hurt me in detail. Now i still will tell him but im selective in what i tell him bc some of it he will enjoy and this would reinforce the behaviour.
        For instance now i dont admit to insecurities as much with other women bc it is an ego boost and he will enjoy that and want it more. No now i disengage and then in as much a neutral way as possible say its disrespectful and i dont deserve that. I stick up for myself in an assertive way which throws him totally off. It probably pisses him off too but in the end it throws our earlier dynamic off and makes him question if his power and influence are fading. Im careful how i come across to him bc i dont want to reinforce an unwanted behaviour based on fuel he would enjoy. I also dont want to equip him with ammunition.
        In a nutshell i cant be 100% myself. With an emotionally healthy person you can tell them how you feel without holding back but with a narcissist its like being with a child in some respects you have to be mindful of what you say and do.

    3. SuperXena says:

      Hello Bekah B,
      I have read many of your interesting comments here and you certainly put a lot of effort and energy on counteracting your ex narc’s manipulations .

      First I thought you were still engaged and consciously mirroring him but then I understood that your counteractions were instinctive as a response of something that he did to hurt you and that you have moved on?

      If I understand right: is this like some kind of mental exercise for you now for understanding your instinctive behaviours helped by the information provided here?

      I can relate to many of your instinctive behaviours, not exactly the same as yours but definitely on the same line and not deploying them deliberately but instinctively.

      I am curious: did you escape him or did he dis-engage?
      If you escape him, when did you reach the point of :” here but not anymore”?
      For me the turning point came when I felt I was feeling worn out, exhausted: that was when I decided to escape. It was an instinctive survival response.
      When was your turning point?

      In my opinion ( and of own experience) even though our narcissistic traits make us strong and stay, there is a tipping point where you wear yourself out trying to resist their manipulations and abusive behaviour.
      In fact , the battle with them is empathy v.s. no empathy and actually there is no winning match for us . It will be game over for us empathic persons. The only way of winning is deciding not to enter the battle in the first place or if you are in it just leave it.

      1. Bekah B says:

        Hello SuperXena,

        Thanks so much for your reply..

        I have known my narcissist for a total of 11.5 years now, but we became (permanently) entangled within the past three years when I became pregnant and subsequently gave birth to our daughter.. She will be 2 yrs old in May.. We have had many ups and downs throughout this time, but yes, you are correct in stating that the relationship is now over..

        Strangely, I escaped and he disengaged, all at the same time.. My point of no return came when he betrayed my trust and stole money out of my bank account.. He lied and tried to make it seem like I consented to him withdrawing the money that he did the last time, since I allowed him to do so twice before, but I had proof that he lied to someone directly involved in this and they needed to escalate my claim against him and he was subsequently punished for his actions.. In my heart and mind, I feel I escaped because I decided to no longer deal with him because of this event.. Once he found out I reported him, he emailed me and let me know he was the one that was leaving me.. Nevertheless, our relationship is over now because I cannot trust him with my resources.. It was bad enough dealing with the lies and other women.. But when he stole from me, I knew that he truly did not value having me in his life as a source of assistance any longer.. I felt my presence in his life was no longer required, but instead of passively backing out as I had done in incidents before, this time I did what I had to do to display to him it was not okay for him to steal money from me like that.. I did not do it out of spite, as he has told everyone I have done.. I did it to finally stand up for myself after all of the many things he has put me through throughout these three years..

        I agree when you say the battle is empathy vs. no empathy.. We are surely destined to always lose in that battle if we are truly empathetic people.. I guess me making my comments in this article are just a way of demonstrating and describing manipulation tactics a truly empathic person, as myself, can engage in.. Again, these are the things I did while with him and I’m just kind of reflecting on them.. They did happen rather instinctively once I realized he was very capable of and more than likely deliberately manipulating me every chance he got.. It is like something “clicks” once you realize the person you’re with is manipulative and self-serving.. You realize you must do all that you can to sustain, survive, and overcome all that they do to bring you down.. It is a very draining process of trying to have the “one-up” or to prepare for the inevitable negative backlash that they craft.. So it’s definitely a combination of becoming so weary and downright tired of the games to the point that you seek escape just as an instinctive survival move.. Even though my emotional thinking gets me often, at the end of every day, I know I made the best decision and the correct moves to distance myself heavily from him, whether through escape or disengagement..

        1. SuperXena says:

          Hello Bekah B,

          Thank you for your answer.
          You made the right decision not only for you but for your little daughter. You will give her the invaluable opportunity to be raised within a healthier environment.
          What he did to you was very low and cowardly denying it was even worse: lack of accountability indeed .

          As I told you, I can absolutely relate with you with many of your reactions that describe the phenomenon called here as Supernova.
          I found your description very interesting.

          I understand why you described your reactions here being a very good example of how this supernova mode can manifest itself and why/when it is triggered. It was an instinctive survival move for me as well as it was for you.

          For me reading ,understanding and learning here about this mode and understanding more about myself was an incredible reinforcement to make my decision to escape him even stronger. I hope it works for you that way as well.
          Best wishes for you and your little daughter!

  31. Bekah B says:

    2. Wounding/Exposure – I once caught my narc in the middle of the night with another woman in her car.. I pulled my car in front of hers so she couldn’t drive away.. I got out and stood at her passenger door, waiting for him to emerge.. In my hand, I had a bag packed with all of his things and calmly handed it to him.. I didn’t say a word and provided absolutely no fuel during this encounter.. I didn’t speak to him for the next 22 days..

  32. Bekah B says:

    Now for the negative stuff *evil smirk*:

    1. Criticism – I once recall mentioning the attractiveness of some male celebrity and watched how my narc stopped what he was doing to look me in my face after I said that.. He seemed taken aback, like he couldn’t believe I could be attracted to another man.. I could feel the slight fury rising in his chest..

    1. 69revolver says:


  33. Mara says:

    This is interesting although I’m honestly not sure where I fit between a codependent, empath, and super empath. I have asked myself if I may have narcissistic traits so this spectrum answers my concerns.

    My guess is that I’m not a narcissist because that kind would never ask themselves that question in any serious way, unless they were a Greater (And I definitely can’t be a Greater 😉 ).

    Although the narcissist I got entangled with says I was oh, “so difficult to deal with” and I suspect my narcissistic traits kicked in at times, I don’t see myself pulling any Supernovas so I’m probably just a regular empath. 🙂

    1. Bibi says:

      I have pulled a few supernovas.

      1. 69revolver says:

        And?? What happened?? Details!

    2. Jasmine says:

      I’m in the same boat. I don’t know which of these categories I fit in, or the types. I see myself in all of them.. contagion, magnet, carrier, etc.
      It doesn’t really matter, I suppose. Either way, we have targets on our backs. Unless they change their approach, depending on type, we still need to be aware of the red flags.

      As for the supernova event, I don’t know that either! Lol. I’ve certainly had explosive moments, that surprise me and anyone around me, and Ive escaped every time, but i don’t go out of my way to be vindictive towards my partner. I even tried to turn the tables on my serial cheater, but couldn’t go through with it. 🙃
      So.. count me in the unknown category!

      1. Mara says:


        Yeah, I don’t see myself being vindictive either and I’m really glad that, despite all the harm he inflicted, he did not cause in me the harm of reducing myself to his toxic level. My revenge is that he no longer has the privilege of being my friend. 😉

        1. Jasmine says:

          ❤❤ love that. I think I’m on the right path for healing too. Time will tell! XO

      2. Mara says:

        Although I had explosive moments myself, hence partly why I was so “difficult”, I guess.

        1. Jasmine says:

          That’s a good thing though.

      3. Bekah B says:

        “It doesn’t really matter, I suppose. Either way, we have targets on our backs. Unless they change their approach, depending on type, we still need to be aware of the red flags.”

        I agree with you, Jasmine..

        Vindictive is a very strong word.. Its literal definition is in reference to revenge, which is acting to cause hurt to someone or something because of an injury suffered at that person or thing’s hands.. Thus, if you engaged in manipulation or other tactics against the narcissist to hurt them because they hurt you, it is considered revenge and hence, you could be considered vindictive.. But if your intention was not to harm, but rather stand up for yourself and display you have capabilities to do the things they do, too, so they had better tread lightly…… Well then…… You may have had an empathic supernova!

        1. Jasmine says:

          Thank you Bekah, I do know what vindictive means and no offense intended!.. I was applying it to my own life and situations.
          My 1st husband is a lying, cheating psychopath. Most likely a somatic middle greater (I know there are few greaters, but between his fame, lifestyle, and complete lack of empathy for the manipulations he employs.. it fits) Anyhoo, when I found out how many woman he was sleeping with, and that he was making me crazy with all the gaslighting!!!.. I purposely went out and tried to retaliate. So, I tried to be vindictive, and couldn’t do it.
          No revenge fuck for me

          1. Bekah B says:

            Lol.. I see.. I could never even do anything like that, the way I am wired.. I just tried to stoop to the mental level and play mind games with him..

          2. H. says:

            I hate to think of it like that…but the revenge was sweet. I did feel a bit guilty…silly me.

  34. Raine says:

    I agree—- much better NOT to be IPPS– I am going SuperNova and the best acting job I have ever done! May take a few months and I also may never find out— but fun playing the games and leaving the land mines for him to walk over

  35. JenniferJ says:

    I find this post very interesting. The effects can be quite different depending on the particular mix of both empathic and narcissistic traits along the empathic-narcissistic spectrum.

    I wonder if this means that a narcissist may also display some minor levels or degrees of empathy depending on where they sit at the narcissistic end of the spectrum?

    Just as there is a “supernova” when it comes to empathy, could there be a similar personality type when it comes to narcissism?

    What are your thoughts HG?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      A narcisisst has no empathy (may have cognitive empathy but that is just used to manipulate). We have ignited fury.

      1. Hurt&Confused (but it's becoming clearer) says:

        I think this is where i disagree with you,HG. I think people with NPD and/or ASPD have low levels of empathy. But it is there. They just actively work to keep any empathic traits “hidden”, as dealing with emotions in a healthy way is something they have not learned and are not willing to learn. That’s why they engage in these maladaptive behaviours. Why do the hard work when you can take the easy way out? Right?
        IMHO, it’s a case of nature and nurture interacting and creating these personality disorders. As for those who can be categorised as subclinical narcissists, they seem to have more autonomy, yet they also choose to switch off their empathy, and prefer to use manipulation tactics. It’s easier.
        Just as I am able to stop myself turning into a raging monster when someone hurts me. It’s tempting, oh so tempting to “Hulk” out on these people, but I exert control. I work on it all the time. There is always an element of choice. Always.

      2. Nina says:

        So when they express their sympathies and prayers etc after a bereavement, they are just faking it? I fail to understand.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          It is not done because there is any emotional empathy for the bereaved but rather because doing this is a learned response which is executed because

          1. It will draw fuel;
          2. It maintains the facade of being a decent and concerned person;
          3. It may be part of triangulation (“I though you hated him and you’ve sent flowers and a card expressing your deepest sympathies.”

          Some narcissists would not do it because they see no need to (invariably a Lesser) or decide not to because the deceased is painted black and provides an opportunity for ruffling feathers and drawing fuel or it may be a wounded response because the deceased and their family are gaining attention so the narcissist has to bring attention back on to them by not showing their respects or making an incendiary remark.

      3. Nina says:

        Thank you for your explaining that so well,
        HG. There was an time in the past, while mourning the loss of someone dear to me, that I expressed to the narc that I was in a mental fog. His response was “why”. I explained to him that I was grieving. However, he made a huge effort to publicly express his condolences to the family members, and how the deceased had been so wonderful to him, and so forth.

      4. JenniferJ says:

        Thanks for your answer HG. It’s interesting that you mention ignited fury. Are you saying there is some kind of correlation between ignited fury in a narc and empathy in a non-narc?

        The way I understand your reply is that a narc responds to everything as though it relates solely as either praise or criticism of them. They don’t see other people as having the ability to exist without being connected to them or an extension of themselves or their thought processes. So instead of having empathy for people or matters that are external to them, they have ignited fury instead.

        Is that what you’re alluding to, or am I reading too much into it and totally off the track?

      5. JenniferJ says:

        Thanks for your reply HG. It’s interesting that you mention ignited fury. Is that because you are making some kind of correlation between ignited fury for a narc and empathy for a non-narc?

        The way I interpret your response is that a narc relates to people and things only in how they reflect on him/her rather than existing in their own right. Therefore, rather than feel empathy or understanding for others, the narc reacts to external people or matters in a self-centred way, as though they are either praise or criticism. So, ignited fury is their reaction, where a non-narc may feel empathy instead.

        Is that what you’re alluding to, or am I reading too much into your reply?

        (PS. My comment may appear twice because it didn’t appear to submit properly the first time.)

  36. Flora says:

    Hahaha. I always love your articles but this one resonated more than anything I’ve ever read here. I realise I’m a Super Empath. The narc in my life is a Lesser. He pushed me too far. He’s acting like he’s afraid of me now. I’ve discarded him, but I might Hoover him later for my own amusement.

  37. DUTG says:

    Do not underestimate your opponent. Do not overestimate your abilitiy to play at his level. Always bear in mind your strengths – kindness, goodness, compassion, forgiveness – are ‘no match’ in this battle. He will change up the rules and even change up the game every single time. Don’t spend your fuel trying to win. You are already defeated from the start. Walk away forever and don’t look back. He’s always one step ahead because he lacks decency and sees no reason to change his core. Why would he? He’s not after the same ‘higher goods’ as us. His aim is to survive by sucking your life force by whatever means possible. Unlike us as we have that light source within. Know that!

    1. shawn singh says:

      DUTG, I agree with your reply. However, we are NEVER defeated. For LOVE conquers all. Even to those who attempt to do harm.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        No it doesn’t and that thought process is part of being a love devotee and is part of the reason why we target you and you are ensnared.

      2. DUTG says:

        I too believe LOVE conquers all – LOVE that is from God. My human-strength love is no match, so I leave that work to God, in the afterlife. I pray for them to find the peace that eludes them and causes them to destroy. But I do so from afar.

      3. Bibi says:

        Love doesn’t conquer cancer, AIDS, world hunger, homelessness, a bullet going into your spine, being crippled, poverty, having a shitty job with a boss who mentally tortures you, stupidity, laziness, etc., etc., etc.

        This is just naive, Hallmark Card thinking. I have never bought into this shit and I have still been targeted. Seriously, if I sat around believing this I would be so depressed all the time because I would be putting my energy and value into some construct of an emotion rather than investing in my talents.

        Seriously, you could change ‘love’ for ‘money’ and to a narcissist, it would be every bit as true.

        Money conquers all.
        Power conquers all.
        Status conquers all.

        Those 3 statements sadly carry far more truth to them than ‘love’ ever will. Look at the current US administration, as example.

        The only thing that truly conquers all is death.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Well put.

          Oh and add Japanese Knotweed too.

        2. Jasmine says:

          I don’t know… I’ve had all that crap and others. I feel better believing in love being all. Nitty necessarily conquering, but just being what life is about. That makes me NOT depressed. It is the absence of love, the darkness, the hatred,… that -to me- is depressing It is a void

    2. Mercy says:

      Well said DUTG. We can play the game but the game has no winners. It ends up being a battle of endurance and the narcissisist can play forever because their life IS the game.

      I’ve had my share of supernova episodes and in the moment it felt good to blow his mind with his own game. I don’t survive on negative fuel though so it never feels like a win like it would to them.

      And always always always once the smoke clears and everything goes back to normal he changes the rules and we start all over.

      No winners ever

      1. DUTG says:

        “No winners ever” – so true. The fuel tank is always bleeding. It’s exhausting for all. The only way to ‘win’ is to step off the merry go round.

      2. Bekah B says:

        I love this reply, Mercy.. I can relate 100%.. I never felt victorious after doing these things.. And I didn’t even realize these things could be considered narcissistic, until I read this article and all other articles on this site.. I am just connecting the dots and realizing I’ve had empathic supernovas.. Most of these actions from me were not done intentionally to harm, but rather to cause cessation in him of my positive fuel.. Otherwise, I probably would have been completely taken advantage of, (more than I was), like a naive dummy.. I just got “smart” after a while.. Not really nasty, hurtful, or evil.. The rules were always changed to make it look like I was the offender, though, and these sudden rule changes made me consider my actions and most often made me feel guilty.. No winners, ever, that’s for sure..

      3. Sarabella says:

        No winners, but the Super Empath needs to learn to fight it. Or it will repeat over and over in life with another. Guaranteed. I will never regret ignoring the advise to not fight. I won. Not him. I won my pride back and KNOWING I can fight. Once you let them go, you fight and go for the juggler and take back everything they stole. Its that simple. But if you don’t let go of them, the fight will never be complete. You will lose more than gain, for sure because at some point in the fight, you will back down in subtle ways and they will sense and know it. When you see you have nothing left to lose, you will win. (Not applicable to physically violent narcs and psychopaths)

    3. blackunicorn123 says:

      Totally agree.

      1. Mercy says:

        Sarabella – I wish so much I could be where you are right now. I am so angry at him for wasting 6 years of my life. The anger overwhelms me sometimes and I want revenge. So i fight. And I’m good at the fight but there is never satisfaction. I keep thinking if I could just get the win then I can leave in peace. It never happens and the years keep ticking by

        It boils my blood to think that when I’m gone he will be fine and I will be left broken. I want to break him. This man stole my soul. He he took away everything innocent in me and I want him to pay. I can’t move past the anger.

        Im at the point that I can no longer blame him. I know what he is and I know the game. I am not in denial but yet I stay to try and win a losing game

      2. Sarabella says:

        Mercy, He broke my 14 year old heart when he was 17. And he targeted me 35 years later, deliberately exploited the old history. Nothing about this has been easy. I still want him destroyed. Don’t get me wrong. But I go through phases. But the fight was within me to not own a thing of his toxicity and to finally dump it back in his lap. And to accept that when I did that, there was no hope ever that we could even be friends. And it wouldn’t have happened because I love him and always did. But that will always make it doubly lopsided. I will never matter to him the way I needed to. I still hurt but I have boxed it up and only take it out at times. Its not computing me 24/7 like it used to.

      3. Sarabella says:

        That would be consuming, not computing !

  38. Jasmine says:

    Obviously 😜

  39. Bc says:

    HG also what are traits that the super empath displays and mind games does the super empath play back?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      See the article ‘The Super Empath’.

  40. Bc says:

    HG can you please elaborate on this part “Their capacity for sucking up the abusive devaluation and their impressive fuel provision is tempting indeed, but reaching the critical point and causing the ignition of the Empathic Supernova can have dire consequences for our kind.”

    What are the consequence effects? Will this super nova make most greaters stay or go?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      The consequences are no contact. The supernova would make a Greater fight.

  41. Bekah B says:

    And the “manipulations” do not necessarily have to be negative.. Here are two positive ones I instinctively engaged in with my narc:

    1. He has high energy levels–Very bubbly, lively, and comical.. Even in the wee hours of late nights/early mornings, I would match this level with him.. I would still be as highly energized as him and talk about all the things he wanted to talk about and do all the things we wanted to do, with such enthusiasm, even if I was worn out from working my full time job all day.. It came very naturally.. I would never show I was bored with him and I never really was.. What this did was actually condition HIM to expect me to be at my best, because in the times I wasn’t like this, he definitely questioned me and asked me what was wrong..

    2. During sex, I would tell him in his ear all of the things he wanted to hear about himself and his prowess.. Not only in that matter, but just about him in general.. How smart he was, how talented he was with his music, etc.. I know this fueled him immensely and set the standard for his expectations.. Again, this came naturally to me..

    These two things are comparable to the manipulations of mirroring and love-bombing.. I matched the energy my narc gave me and complimented him on the things he did best while he was doing something that he really did best.. *wink wink* (tmi lol! 🙈) These actions from me were not deliberate and forced, at all.. They were genuine and came naturally from my heart because I really did love being with my narc.. I did these things throughout our relationship..

    1. Bc says:

      But wouldn’t this just be positive fuel and not manipulation?

      1. Bekah B says:


        Yes and no. In the beginning, it was pure positive fuel and, for the most part, he did receive these same things and others throughout our relationship with good intentions.. But there were times when I would be tired or angry with him, internally, and did not feel like being chipper with him.. There were times when I did not want to have sex or wasn’t “in the mood”.. Yet, I maintained “my façade” and showed him what he wanted to see..

      2. shawn singh says:

        Bc, I don’t see this as positive fuel, negative fuel or manipulation. I see it as having self-esteem (for self). Also the key word in Bekah’s reply is condition.

    2. shawn singh says:

      Bekah, I enjoyed your reply and so agree with your tactics!

  42. Sandra says:

    Having latent narcissistic traits seems like it would lessen or counter the traumatic impact but it does not.

    I don’t want promoted to fucking IPSS or even my golden period as DLS back.

    My resentment at having my kindness used against me burns. The implication that I am stupid burns. The idea that he thinks he has gotten away with it burns.

    So. I remain 85% inaccessible. Successful contact only means I am wonderfully promising of positive fuel but my covert nicks wound and confuse.

    I’m taking back my control but I remain poisoned and at risk.

    Not so super, is it?

    1. Sandra says:

      correction: I don’t want to be promoted to fucking IPPS, (not IPSS…I already am)

    2. JenniferJ says:

      I understand how you feel resentful and angry that you were manipulated Sandra, and I know that the experience is a very difficult and traumatic one. I felt the same, and still do a lot of the time.

      I can relate to the continued resentment and the feeling of being “poisoned”. However, I am starting to see my own input into these negative feelings. Perhaps it is your own empathic traits of honesty, kindness and decency that lead you to feel that what you experienced was so awful that it has “poisoned” you. I don’t think it has “poisoned” you. I think it has taught you a valuable lesson instead. It has expanded your awareness and made you stronger for the next time a narcissist tries to manipulate you.

      If you gradually change your perspective (even slightly), the feelings that “burn” may subside and you may continue to take back your control with the feeling of being empowered rather than resentful or poisoned. The feelings of resentment and anger steal your joy and hold you back from moving forward.

      It’s a gradual change in your own perception and it takes time, but it does eventually make you “super” :))

      1. Sandra says:

        Thank you, Jennifer, for the gentle encouragement and validation in a time when I’m berating myself for obstinacy.

        I just need this justice boner to subside and my empathy to return.

        I keep reading here and dodging him til then.

      2. Sarabella says:

        I hear what you are saying but it’s a delicate balance because they do poison. They steal a whole lot from you. The sense of violation goes so deep. And its a balance between feeling the reality and not blaming the victim. Not that you are, I know it’s not what you intend, but it can feel that way. I had a friend tell me the narc was psychologically abusing me but then turn around and laugh that did I think I was the only person in life who has been played? Well, that was a mixed message.

        I also had people tell me why hadn’t moved on after a year. I didn’t know I had a time limit to heal and they had no idea the depth this had gone for me. They didn’t want those details.

        I feel that they are soul thieves. And if you know anything about soul recovery, it doesn’t just pop back intact when the narc is gone. Little bits come back when they are ready and until then, feeling soulless or having a fragmented soul for an empath is a horrifyingly painful experience. Until there is a deep sense of safety, an empath’s soul stays scattered or missing, and this is why the poison persists and the resentment remains. Without the soul, empathy and that deep intuition doesn’t come back. We don’t like being turned into soulless narcs which is sort of what it can feel like at the height of a supernova empathic state.

        Mine is mostly back but I go through moments of grief or worse, feeling I am back and can be my old loving self, maybe he and I would be ok to talk. I project my returned sense of safety into him in my head and think it could be different. That is very dangerous because it won’t happen. Sometimes I have to bring the anger and resentment back just to keep me from ever reaching out again. Pretty lousy defense strategy and prolongs the ick.

  43. Patricia says:

    So spot on! He said “Can you just be nice to me again?” Awww poor baby! It is so satisfying to turn the tables on them after all the hell and manipulation they put us through.

    1. Flora says:

      Yes it is so satisfying 🙂

      1. K says:

        This Wednesday is a lunar trifecta: an eclipse, a blue moon and a supermoon. There will be no full moon in February and March will have another blue moon. Two blue moons in the same year occur about 4x a century.

        Potential super empath in the making:

        My daughter stood up to midrange 7-year-old female at recess. The MRN tattled on my daughter (stool pigeon). A teacher confronted my daughter and tried to force her to play with the MRN. My daughter said, “No! I do not have to play with her. I have the right to say, NO!” My daughter kept repeating herself and the teacher threatened consequences. So my 7-year-old said, “If you give me consequences, my mother will come here and she will care of it.”

        Damn straight I will.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          More astronomical news with K next week as she probes Uranus.

          1. K says:

            Well, I have been fantasizing lately about probing Uranus, HG.

            My daughter taught a classmate this line:
            “I wasn’t listening; can you repeat what you said please?”

            Then my daughter watched her use the line repeatedly on a ULN (girl) and the ULN angrily stomped off. The classmate told my daughter, “It worked. Thank you.”

            That was epic!

          2. HG Tudor says:

            As long as you aren’t thinking about the narcissist, you find whatever distraction works for you.

            Polite wounding in effect at school it appears.

          3. K says:

            Ha ha ha…my lady fingers are feeling restless. Thanks for the laugh.

            Polite wounding, absolutely. She understands more about NPD than the school psychologist and she wants to help her classmates who are being targeted. She is brilliant and she knows to keep you a secret from her dad.

      2. Twilight says:


        Don’t forget the eclipse that is suppose to happen in March to

        School jumping sounds fun….

        1. K says:

          Damn, I missed that, Twilight! Enjoy the Super Blue Blood Moon. School jumping, bail jumping, it’s all good.

          1. Twilight says:


            Ha ha I will be up in the am to see the first one.

            I am sorry for what you went through with your husband K, I could care less of a persons “preferences” but grooming a child….
            You and your daughter are better off without him

        2. K says:

          Thank you, Twilight
          The whole thing was really weird and I told my MMRN that he groomed the child like a pedophile and his behavior was completely unacceptable. You are right; we are better off without him.

  44. Oh my….I had secretly wondered if I had become Narcissistic! I could lie to him, cheat on him, go to to toe with the verbal abuse and never shed a tear. No emotion. None. I don’t usually share this because I know I was good to him for far too long and I refuse to accept blame for finally bringing the pain to my Mid Range Narcissist He called me the fucking devil and said I was evil. I guess he didn’t like his reflection huh? I suddenly feel the need for a cape with the letters SE 🙂 love love love this piece of info!!

  45. Bekah B says:

    Yes!! I was waiting for this to be reposted.. 🙂 I read this the last time it was posted in October of 2017 and each of the comments that followed.. A lot of people made mention of becoming angry with the narcissist and deliberately acting in revenge towards them.. I do feel that this would be a demonstration of narcissistic traits coming to the foreground.. However, I think it really would be characteristic of having an empathic supernova and possibly thus being considered a Super Empath if you repeatedly and instinctively performed the classic manipulations and machinations the narcissist used on you, on them, just because every time you were around that narcissist, you were led by an energy to do so.. Like you literally could not help it.. And when I say instinctive, I do mean in a moment’s notice.. Without thinking, at all.. Ever so covert.. Ever so subtle.. And ever so effective.. Do you agree, HG?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I do.

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