The Dirty Empath – Infidelity


The Empath. Regarded as a paragon of virtue with those traits of honesty, decency, compassion, love devotee, moral compass and so on. All of which make the empath and their fuel output tempting prey for us. Yet within these virtuous empathic traits sit other traits, narcissistic traits.

There are four schools of empath (Standard, Super, Co-Dependent and Contagion) . Layered on to these schools are the empathic cadres (such as Magnet, Carrier and Geyser).

Each empath within the relevant school has both empathic and narcissistic traits. Some will have a small number of strong empathic traits with few narcissistic traits which are low in strength. Some will have many empathic traits which are moderate in strength and have few or numerous narcissistic traits which are all very low in strength. Some will have many empathic traits which are strong and numerous narcissistic traits which are moderate or even quite strong. The key consideration is that, in effect, the empathic traits keep the narcissistic ones ‘in check’ and thus the empathic individuals behave in a way which is empathic with other people.

There are however two main instances when the narcissistic traits come to the fore. The first is through The Empathic Supernova which is when the empathic traits become ‘dialled down’ or eroded for a temporary time and thus the narcissistic traits come to the fore. The second instance is a permanent state of affairs and this is the class of the Dirty Empath. The individual is empathic, of that there is no doubt, they have those empathic traits, they also have narcissistic traits too, however one of those narcissistic traits remains strong and prominent throughout and sits alongside the fewer, weaker narcissistic traits and the various empathic traits of varying strength. This does not mean this person is a narcissist, not at all. It does not mean that this person is not an empath. What it means is that they are an empath but there is one (sometimes there might be more) narcissistic trait which ‘dirties’ their empathic status. Think of the empath coloured white with a black streak running through them.

This class of Dirty Empath has various streaks which appertain to the relevant narcissistic trait which prevails and this includes the streak of infidelity.

Thus where the empath is already in a romantic relationship, whether living together,boyfriend and girlfriend or married and they embark on a romantic, sexual relationship outside of that relationship, their narcissistic trait of infidelity has risen to the surface and remained there. What has caused that to happen? As ever, it is a symbiotic equation.

From the empath’s side there is something not right within their existing relationship which means that the narcissistic trait comes to the fore.

For instance, let us take the example whereby the spouse of the empath is either an empath or a normal and has become impotent and/or has no interest in sex any more. All else is well within the relationship – they care for the empath, they pull their weight around the home, they are a good parent, they have a decent job and so on. All is largely well, save for the issue of sexual relations. In such a situation, the empathic spouse has the following choices:-

  1. Recognise that all else is well within the relationship, that sex is but one facet (albeit an important one) and accept that it is better to have all of the other good elements of the relationship and therefore not seek to damage the relationship or hurt their spouse by seeking sexual interaction outside of the marriage. This is the response of an empath who has no dirty streak of the narcissistic trait of infidelity;
  2. As above save that the empath regards sex as so significant that they need it yet they do not want to hurt their spouse. Accordingly, they seek their spouse’s blessing to seek sex outside of the marriage but otherwise want nothing more external to the relationship. This is the response of an empath who has the narcissistic trait of infidelity but it is not so strong as to amount to a dirty streak;
  3. As per point one, save that the empath craves sexual interaction and knows it can only be achieved outside of the relationship. They therefore seek out sexual encounters with other people but have no desire to leave the existing relationship. This individual’s narcissistic dirty streak has risen to the fore and governed the behaviour of this particular empath.

With regard to this third element it remains relatively rare that the empath will do this unilaterally because their traits of guilt, honesty, decency and compassion will fight against the desire to accommodate the narcissistic desire of infidelity. If the narcissistic trait is very strong, the empath may still seek out these encounters and have them with normal people, an empath in a similar position to their own or find a narcissist.

What happens more often than not in this third situation is that the empath spouse has been targeted by our kind.

An empath with no narcissistic streak of infidelity (or a very low one) will resist the sexual overtures of the narcissist. They may remain as a Non Intimate Secondary Source to the narcissist. It is highly unlikely they would be targeted to begin with in any event by the narcissist.

An empath with a narcissistic streak of infidelity, which is greater than very low, will succumb to the overtures of the narcissist and find themselves engaged in an affair, breaking their wedding vows, breaching the trust of their partner and becoming sucked in to the world of the narcissist. If the narcissistic streak of infidelity is very strong, the empath may even have sought out (unconsciously) the narcissist.

Combine the narcissistic streak of infidelity in the Dirty Empath and a narcissist and infidelity is a given. How this pans out very much depends on the desires and wants of the narcissist. Please see the latter part of The Married Target as to how we are drawn to those who are married and are thus susceptible to our overtures. We may want the empath to become our IPPS and thus they are designated the role of Candidate IPSS as we love bomb them and lure them away from their spouse using our range of manipulations in the way that is described in ‘The Married Target’. It may be the case that both Dirty Empath and narcissist are content with an arrangement whereby the Dirty Empath is a Shelf IPSS and sees the narcissist intermittently and is treated as a friend with benefits, side person or mistress. Both parties are content with this. The narcissist gains in accordance with The Prime Aims and the Dirty Empath scratches that itch for sex outside of the marriage (coupled with the excitement that accords with it) but keeps their own relationship intact.

Sometimes the Dirty Empath becomes the Dirty Little Secret and is content with that arrangement also.

Note however that whether the Dirty Empath is a Candidate IPSS, Shelf IPSS or Dirty Little Secret, this is always at the behest and control of the narcissist. The Dirty Empath may willingly embrace the dynamic (unaware of course that they are with a narcissist and what their role is) as it fulfils the desires of the narcissistic trait of infidelity.

The issue arises however when the Dirty Empath wants to remain in the role of Shelf IPSS or DLS but the narcissist wants the empath to become the IPPS. Battle is joined to pull the Dirty Empath in the direction the narcissist requires with all of the drama, triangulation and heartache that follows. The problem for the Dirty Empath is that having allowed themselves to be governed by the narcissistic streak of infidelity they have already trampled over their partner and the narcissist knows this. In the same way you cannot get a little bit pregnant, you cannot be a little bit unfaithful, you either are not or you are.

Where the Dirty Empath has hitherto enjoyed being the Shelf IPSS or DLS, keeping this activity secret from their partner and enjoying all the other benefits of the best of both worlds, it is the narcissist who ultimately calls the tune and if he or she wants that Dirty Empath in a different role, the narcissist will strive to make it happen. If the Dirty Empath will not accord with the change of allocated role then he or she can expect their partner to be told of their infidelity and invariably the narcissist will have evidence (photos, film, documentary evidence of hotel trysts, oral testimony from Lieutenants) to use against the Dirty Empath. If the threat of release of this material does not persuade the Dirty Empath to submit to the whim of the narcissist, then it will be released. The hitherto painted white Dirty Empath will be painted black, they will be devalued prior to dis-engagement and their own existing relationship with spouse or partner will be the prime target of the narcissist for the purposes of causing its destruction and spreading misery. The need to punish the disobedient Dirty Empath and the significant fuel available (negative fuel from IPSS, negative fuel from secondary/tertiary cuckolded spouse, negative fuel from secondary/tertiary sources allied with said spouse and/or Dirty Empath, positive fuel from loyal secondary/tertiary sources to the narcissist) means that the chances of the Dirty Empath being ‘let off’ are virtually nil.

The Dirty Empath may find they can keep their own infidelity quiet for some time, remain as a DLS or Shelf IPSS and enjoy an elongated golden period with the narcissist, but they have no control over that. If it continues that way, this is purely down to the approach of the narcissist. There remains a risk that the narcissist will wish to change the dynamic and with that comes significant consequences for the playing away Dirty Empath, his or her spouse, partner and family.

Those who “give in” to their narcissistic trait (and this is usually because a narcissist has ‘sniffed out’ this Dirty Empath will eventually end up suffering.

This happens in the following circumstances :-

  1. The DE is DLS or Shelf IPSS for some time and then the narcissist wants to promote them to Candidate IPSS and then IPPS, but the DE does not want this as this will blow open their infidelity;
  2. The DE is DLS or Shelf IPSS for some time and then the narcissist decides to dis-engage against the will of the DE;
  3. The DE wants to become the IPPS of the narcissist, but the narcissist does not want this to happen;
  4. The DE wants to become the IPPS of the narcissist, achieves this, leaves their former spouse with all of the attendant heartache that causes and then enjoys a golden period with their newly acquired (but unrecognised) narcissist. Of course you know what is coming next don’t you? Yes, the DE IPPS is then devalued and dis-engaged from. Their narcissistic streak of infidelity has seen them lured from an otherwise satisfying relationship, drawn by the golden allure of the unrecognised narcissist only for that to collapse and now they find themselves alone, rejected and often hated by narcissist and the cuckolded spouse they once had.

The Dirty Empath with the narcissistic streak of infidelity who becomes ensnared by our kind is only heading for misery. They do not have the lack of remorse, lack of conscience or lack of guilt that allows us to drive ever forward. Instead they are left to rue the consequences of this narcissistic trait being intensified and exploited by our kind.

Further articles will follow concerning the various streaks of the Dirty Empath.

115 thoughts on “The Dirty Empath – Infidelity

  1. Marina Poliakoff says:

    Are you kidding me??? How many labels and sub labels do we have to put on ourselves and others in our lives? Please people, empaths, narcissists, etc. Stop trying so much to label. It doesn’t serve any purpose or do any good. Just figure out what your own truth is and try as best you can to walk that path.

  2. Michelle says:

    I don’t know what I am, only how I feel. Like there are two sides a good and bad side always fighting for dominance within me. I have always been drawn to Narcs and they have been drawn to me. I’m married nearly 14 years. I have BPD and other issues. I have intimacy issues but hubby is understanding of these. I’ve never had a relationship with Narc except the very long one with my single parent father who abused and controlled me. I actually have a good man, very patient, loving and giving. Yet the badness inside me consistently looks elsewhere not that I would ever cheat.Though I have emotionally at times. It’s very confusing and troubling. Sometimes I think of killing myself because the fighting inside is so intense, and I want to end the deep pain I feel. But I’m complex, and nobody can help me.
    Nobody gets this. Part of me is like a young innocent girl who wants to be controlled. The other part is like a strong fiesty woman who won’t let nobody control me. I am always empty. I am scared. I get by by pretending it’s not an issue or not thinking about it. I don’t know who I am….
    I am 40 years old but look younger, act younger and sound younger.

  3. Quasi says:

    Has anyone else been labelled as a dirty empath? Or relate to this?
    I have been advised that this is my label as I am married and a narcissist worked on bringing this existing streak / trait to the fore in me.
    Has anyone else come back from that? Am I heading for misery through exploitation from more narcissists as the article suggests… surely that will depend on the individual, their insight, knowledge of themselves and choices / actions? I was in a good mood about 5 mins ago …. 😂 maybe I should just stop reading !!

    1. Insatiable Learner says:

      Hello, Quasi. You are definitely not alone. I am your fellow DE. Nice to meet you.

    2. narc affair says:

      Hi quasi…i go back and forth on this term. I dont feel for me this to be a permanent trait. Its a consequence of something very deep in my relationship we struggled with. Many would say if you didnt have this trait you wouldve ended your marriage and moved on but i can say with certainty cheating was not something i craved or wanted to do. Its not something im proud of or find myself wanting to pursue.
      Maybe others do have an urge to be swayed to cheat but that was never my intent.

    3. K says:

      Don’t stop reading and don’t stress too much. I am a DEMB (dirty empath marriage breaker). You will not be headed for misery with other narcissists as long as you recognize them and do not engage. It is all good.

    4. Quasi says:

      Well howdy fellow DE’s. Thanks for responding, it’s good to know your there. Narc affair- I remain married, but similarly to you cheating on my husband was not my intent, i did not seek it. I actively worked to convince the narcissist for many months that I could be a great friend and rejected him in that way. I have written about my descent into IPSS a little bit in one of my responses in letter 9 I think… care for him and not particularly lust or want ( generally very bad selfish decision making on my part) changed my position.
      No worries k I’m not stressed…. the emoji was a laughing one … his little face is just squished… thanks ladies x

      1. K says:

        My pleasure, Quasi

    5. Supernova DE says:

      Another dirty empath here. Sometimes I worry that I am the narc since I feel I mirrored his interests in the beginning and fueled the flirtatious nature of our “friendship” instead of the other way around. I also worry because I got a lot of accusations of wanting to end our marriages for each other, though I never wanted that and never said anything of the sort. I fear that was projection that he wanted me as IPPS and that I am doomed to malign hoovers.
      At least we are in it together ladies!

    6. nunya biz says:

      I have been philosophically contemplating what it is to not be “a narcissist” but to do narcissistic behaviors, which I have done many many many many times.
      We all do.
      My question is “why”. So there are reasons. And there is “healthy narcissism” which I may even want to increase, I want to decrease the narcissism I think is unhealthy.

      Anyway, quasi, you have some things you need I assume : ).

  4. Challenger says:

    Whoa. This article is my life for the last three years. My narc (childhood love interest/one who got away) re-entered my life through social media at a slightly rocky time in my marriage and life. I made it very easy for him. Only online dealings and quite long distance, so easy to be shelved and DLS. Initially it didn’t bother me, it was a fine arrangement. But eventually (likely in golden seduction period when he was attending to others) I began to get irritated with some of his testing behaviors, his inconsistency, and his inability to care anymore if I was also sexually satisfied. Of course my complaints gave him challenge fuel and he always responded with silent treatments. My confusion lies in a few different points:
    1. HG in these scenarios where the relationship is almost purely sexual, does the narc feel sexual attraction to the particular victim, or is it all generic?
    2. He has always been able to tell me he’s sorry. Which seems out of line with a narc in general.
    3. I have indicated I was not interested anymore multiple times, and there has never been preventative hoovers, why would that be?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      1. See Sex and the Narcissist.
      2. Sorry is false contrition with a narcissist – see Angels With Dirty Faces.
      3. He either does not believe you will act on not being interested (which is supported if you have said it multiple times – unless you mean you say it, leave and then return and then say it again on a separate occasion) or he has plenty of other options and therefore is relaxed about you leaving because he knows you will return/be hoovered back (possibly supported by you having said it multiple times)

      1. Supernova DE says:

        Thank you! I have read Sex and the Narcissist since asking this and I found it helpful so thanks for that also!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Jolly good.

  5. Nan says:

    One of my narcs favorite lines is ‘we are cut from the same cloth, we are both highly sexually evolved, no one does what we do, we are special and more special together’ I always felt bad for cheating, but it never stopped me. I wallowed in filth with my lover but no, i am not like him. But I keep reading this article and it makes me sick to see myself in truth.

  6. Thisisit says:

    Ok, HG
    Isn’t this situation total end by narcissist?
    No more hoovering
    No more golden period
    He hate DE

    “The DE wants to become the IPPS of the narcissist, achieves this, leaves their former spouse with all of the attendant heartache that causes and then enjoys a golden period with their newly acquired (but unrecognised) narcissist. Of course you know what is coming next don’t you? Yes, the DE IPPS is then devalued and dis-engaged from. Their narcissistic streak of infidelity has seen them lured from an otherwise satisfying relationship, drawn by the golden allure of the unrecognised narcissist only for that to collapse and now they find themselves alone, rejected and often hated by narcissist and the cuckolded spouse they once had.”

  7. On my Journey says:

    Reading “ Chained” this weekend was a response to so many of my questions . Why I am attracted by narcisstist and feel secure in their madness, why do I want more, why the intimacy I am brininging in freaks them out and brings devaluation, why I “ understand” them – their demons… etc I never quite felt right in the empath defininitin but totally recognizes myself in the Co-dependent one. This really completes the material I have from my twelve steps program. I also understand why my Marc calls me his security. He deeply knows that a real escape is highly improbable althoUgh I escape once in awhile when I get too confused or sick to get some health and energy self care only to come back to feed the beast. I am not judging me anymore – understanding and accepting is first steps I believe.

  8. miniduck says:

    Hello HG
    I am trying to understand co dependent empath.
    Can codependent empath be a partial narc as he or she gets her fuel through her or his narc? I understand that codependent have low self esteem but if he or she is a kid a narc, then he or she gets fulfillment only through a narc who behaves or looks like her or his narc parent. He or she might find normal person boring or not a good provider of the fuel they are addicted to.
    They think low about themselves but they aim higher as they love the false self of a narc whom they love and admire, that they could not achieve themselves. They want to remain in the fantasy world of a narc together with them.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Everybody has narcissistic traits, so a co-dependent will have some, typically they are few in number and weak in nature. “partial narc” is misleading, you are either a narcissist or you are not, you may be NARCISSISTIC but not a narcissist. Such a distinction is important. I recommend you read the book ‘Chained” that will provide you with many answers.

      1. EmP says:

        One question HG.
        Would the reverse apply?
        Could a narcissist ever be EMPATHETIC? Or would the supposed empathetic behaviour be a manifestation of cognitive empathy?
        I have seen narcissistic women act very affectionate with their children…kissing them and cuddling them and that puzzles me.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          It will be learned cognitive empathy. I could do it here but I do not because it would confuse people and of course I do not feel or mean it.

      2. miniduck says:

        Thanks HG
        I will do that next month. I am looking forward to read most of your books.
        When i read other writers i get confused. Thus i have stopped reading them. I must admit that you write better than Sam Vaknin. Everytime i read him, i slept over the book.

      3. Carol M says:

        Sam Vaknin is obnoxious! I tried reading one of his books and there I was again, studying half heartedly Physics only to be able to graduate and go to college read my beloved XIX Literature.

  9. W says:

    Mine is texting me now from a romantic weekend away w/ his wife. He knows I’m trying to pull away and is freaking out but attempting to control so he doesn’t come off as angry. LOL
    What a stupid moronic situation I’ve been in. Thanks to posts like these I’ve found the clarity I needed to finally pull the plug on this. Now to fashion up my 3rd , and hopefully final, escape attempt.

    HG you’d likely get a laugh out of my situation now if you could see it playing out. Dude is NOT going to be happy. But I’m sure he’ll have a replacement in place soon enough, if he doesn’t already.
    tho he’d be lucky if he found one that didn’t try to blow his life up. That’s if he doesn’t blow it up himself.

    Ugh. Funny , but only from a distance.

  10. Linda says:

    Can someone a super empath and a dirty empath ?

    1. HG Tudor says:


      1. NarcAngel says:

        Faster than a speeding bullet in attending to others needs.

        More powerful than a locomotive in Supernova mode.

        Able to leap over emotion and seize logic to affect a GOSO campaign once introduced to HG Tudors works and Academy of Learning.

        Look! …up in the sky. Its a bird alright, its NOT at all plain, its the Super Dirty Empath. Welcomed visitor to the Narc who comes bearing powers and abilities beyond those of his deserving.

        Super Dirty Empath, so caught up in her power to temporarily affect the course of mighty emotion in a Narc and bend the steel of societal rules, all while disguised as mild mannered, and engaging in a neverending battle for Truth, Honesty, and Decency, that she forgets to take her cape to the dry cleaners.

        Behold the Super Dirty Empath!

      2. Lisa says:

        Omg I wondered this! Because I have many times thought I was a Narc or a borderline! These shits are so attracted to me and sometimes even though I’m hurt find myself wanting to play the game. It’s like a chess game. I find myself most sad when he did engages from the game: HG isn’t that indicative of Super Nova? The Narc didn’t quite trust me ? Is the Narc distrustful of the Super Nova? It’s alomost as if he thought I was of his kind

  11. Bobbi says:

    I’m a dirty, dirty empath
    I should be spanked…

    Any takers?

    1. Carol M says:

      Why, a Lesser would certainly be willing to! I do not recommend it, though.

      1. Bobbi says:

        I have an ex who is a lesser. He was just a pathetic, immature, sicko. I prefer a higher class of narc anyways. You can actually have an intelligent conversation with one.

  12. Nan says:

    A lonely, bored and horny married woman with time on her hands… He saw me coming a mile away. I have been incredibly selfish and so very foolish. Ugh. Disgusted w myself this morning. However, here’s to two NC wknds in a row!

    1. Carol M says:

      Yes, we all saw it coming, it is Madame Bovary from Gustave Flaubert, Eugenia Grandet from Horoné de Balzac and Anna Karenina from Liev Tolstoi. If it happens so much in Literature it is very likely to happen one thousand times more in real life. Don’t be disgusted with yourself, you are XIX Century Literature material!

  13. Star says:

    Mmm well I suppose I do have a steak of dirty empath myself. I did cheat on my ex narc. Several times in fact. It was quite out of character for me but I did enjoy it. He would leave/ and or devalue me for weeks at a time and without warning, and I would be on a rampage to fill that void. It was my own insecurities tho that fuelled me. It was a way of trying to feel powerful when my whole world felt like it was crashing in on itself. But still I felt a lot of shame for acting that way, and at the time hated myself for it. But another part of me liked the fact that it was one thing that he couldn’t control about me. The consequences I received from him tho, almost made it not worth it.

    1. Jess says:

      I took a lot of trauma on myself for cheating also. It felt good at the time but the effect on him made it so that I did suffer greatly. Plus, I’ve read that narcissists feel validated when they neglect you enough to make you cheat. Since it is out of character for us, when we cheat, the narcissist knows he got to us. Wounded our self esteem so badly that we needed to validate elsewhere just to maintain our self worth. It doesn’t work in the end. My uncle (narcissist) used to say “sounded like a good idea at the time!”

      1. Lala says:

        And if you really want to show the world what a low life utter piece of shit a narcissist is then stay loyal and keep your legs closed because it will invalidate the bully abuser who thought they’d be able to explain away all their abuse if they got you to cheat so they could fake justify their actions.

        He has been cheating on me for 11 months now and the abuse and neglect and cruelty has gotten to unforgivably wrong and criminal because I’m not a bad person and would never have the urge to be, whether I’m starved for affection or broken in spirit….. Which is why I’m wearing 2 black eyes, a busted lip and strangulation bruises all under my chin, along with all the back bruises from him sitting on my chest and locking my arms down with his knees and telling me he was going to kill me because I refused to be fake and play pretend like he was Mr Wonderful after everything he has done to me because I won’t reward his mistreatment, abuse or cheating and I won’t say anything nice to a cheater who deserves nothing from me.

  14. On Amy Journey says:

    HG isn’t some borderline traits in there ?
    It is a cluster B personality disorder too. Maybe it is because of the work dirty – that I have that borderline image.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      There might be.

      1. Lisa says:

        This is interesting because I read that nothing keeps a narcissist interested like a borderline and it seems to me that the DE has many borderline like traits. Is there one type of empath or supply that keeps the Narc engaged more than another ? I’m curious about this

        1. HG Tudor says:

          It depends on the school of narcissist, Lisa. It is correct that borderlines are of interest to narcissists, however, as ever, other commentators do not have the full picture and therefore provide a single-strand narrative for our behaviour, when there are many different strands, but then, how would they know – they are not me are they? The desirability of a borderline varies dependent on the school of narcissist.

      2. Lisa says:

        HG what about the Borderline would a Narc be drawn to ? Is the drama?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          They provide significant quantities of fuel and are easy to seduce, although for some narcissists controlling them can be problematic.

      3. Yolo says:

        Might.. but not necessary. Borderline’s may be impulsive and have similar traits but we will use logic although it may not be reasonable thinking. Emotional thinking can cause more damage when dealing with narcs.

        The personality disorder can almost mimic those of a narc because of the mood swings ,and changes in personality traits presents a challenge.

    2. narc affair says:

      I could see how certain narcissists would gravitate towards a borderline bc theyd like the fact they are insecure and have low boundaries. Also they can be very reactive which can be fuel that certain narcs desire. The impulsivity of a borderline would be exciting to some narcissists. Like narcissists theres different types and severities of borderlines.
      Same with empaths not all narcissists appeal to an empath. Some empaths love the loud outwardly nature or a lesser and some fall for more covert quiet type narcissists.

    3. Carol M says:

      I have read in another blog that narcs and bordelines are very attracted to each other because they lack a ‘core’ and have deep identity issues, sharing a trauma bond. I have not an opinion about it just yet, but it seems coherent.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        “I have read in another blog” – heretic! Burn her!

        1. K says:

          Carol M cheated on HG! That makes her a DE.

        2. Carol M says:

          Why, Your Majesty, researching other sources only increases the value of this blog in comparinson. I am aware the Narcissistic Relationship is forever, I am but a Tertiary Source, I became another HG girl and I will not go astray. C’est tout, that’s all folks.

      2. narc affair says:

        Uh oh youzzz in trouble carol 😂😉😄

      3. Carol M says:

        Heretic – from the Greek. αἱρετικός – hairetikós, from the noun αἵρεσις – haíresis “division’, from the verb αἱρεῖσθαι- haireísthai “to decide, to pick, to prefer”, originally worn to define people given to belong to different Philosophy Schools, as to say, people allowed to chose. So I am allowed to pick this blog above all else!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Good answer !

        2. Lala says:

          Don’t be an ass kissing follower and let faceless control freaks online control where you learn and how you learn. That’s brainwashing and subtly obvious joke bullying to keep you seduced by H.G. Tudors eloquent writing abilities and that only helps narcissists keep their enablers and leaves the real victims without the support they need and deserve.

          1. Carol M says:

            Thank You Lala, however, I’d rather chose whom to be bullied by myself, lol!

      4. MVHS Class of 86 says:

        Are ‘borderlines’ borderline narcissists? Trying to follow the lingo. Sorry.

  15. Empress1 says:

    HG- excellent post. Wondering, my narc and I have split up- as you know. Would he consider me a ‘dirty empath’—for seeing someone new however I am not intimate with this new guy— just friends. …… My ex knows me and yes, knows I am too honest– he has asked me if I have ‘been with’ this new guy and I, of course, said no— it is the truth.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      A Dirty Empath is either in a relationship and has an extra-relationship or is in a relationship or single and has a relationship with someone who is already in a relationship. Former is DE – Infidelity, latter is DE – Marriage (R/ship) Breaker.

      If you are in a relationship with one person and he is not in a relationship, you are not a dirty empath. Your narcissist may well paint you black however for your treachery.

      1. On Amy Journey says:

        So HG- dirty empath only applies when you are in a relation – in this case with the Narc?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          The Dirty Empath applies to many different situations dependent on the relevant narcissistic streak which creates the ‘dirt’.

          The DE – Infidelity only applies when you are in a relationship with somebody else already (who may or may not be a narcissist) and you are ensnared in an extra-relationship affair.

      2. K says:

        Damn, I forgot. I am a DEMB.

      3. Nuit Étoilée says:

        Hg, you say the Dirty Empath narcissistic traits are a permanent state of affairs – you’re saying – once a cheat always a cheat? But you also cite that someth not right in the relationship of the empath is what had brought the infidelity trait to the fore – don’t you think it is possible for someone who has lived and learned from the lesson of being a dirty empath that she (or he) could ensure not to make the same mistake again?

        I think perhaps you are citing your own capacities of seduction against which apparently no woman has resisted, but under normal circumstances, I certainly think many men & women can learn to resist whereas they may have succumbed in the past. (You’ll say that’s my misplaced faith in hope talking)

  16. Paying The Price says:

    I am/was paying the price of being the Dirty Empath that was the Dirty Little Secret … He was a teenage boyfriend and a comment on a mutual friend’s facebook page sparked it.

    I’d not had sex with my husband for 2 years at that point and could count on one hand the number of times in the previous 5 years.

    I felt rejected, I had been loyal for 18 years. I tried to talk about the problem in all the emotions, supportive, empathy, anger, frustration, all brushed under the carpet.

    I was / am depressed, along he came.

    At first a friend request, I ignored as no interest in a past friend, following day. A private message about how i made him laugh, I’m not rude so I replied. And there it started.

    I was in control at first and tried to end before it started.

    Oh my, the Golden Period, the messages, the mirroring, the walks, the fun, the romance. The talk’s, his dead marriage (his sex on “special occasions”).

    I thought I had met my person. When he discarded me for the first time, I was bereft and realised I loved him.

    If only I didn’t allow the first hoover. I had no idea of who or what he was. He had told be things that made me think he was damaged and guess who was going to love him through it.

    After 20 months of pretty much Hell including my husband finding out. I was discarded and decided enough was enough.

    3 weeks later, he was waiting for me at the end of my road. He had Cancer, he wanted me in his life, I made him feel alive, loved, wanted.

    My World stopped and I was there for him 100%. HIs wife wasn’t particularly or not empathic like me.

    I was discarded when treatment became to bad and He never wanted to see me again. I was devastated didn’t know if he was going to live or die.

    I had to function for my husband and daughter, I think I did have a breakdown.

    He contacted me 3 months later I was the first person he wanted to see when he could leave the house.

    If I couldn’t forgive him during Cancer treatment when could I? His treatment of me became worse.

    He has spilt up with his wife “she wasn’t there for him” We continued to meet have sex and he was then vile. I used to answer back more pull him up on his crap, he didn’t like it.

    Mid November he told me he can’t do it anymore i piss him off too much. His words “He still fancies me and wants to f*ck and kiss me”.

    FInal insult I hate the term f*ck seems to me so degrading. I say shag or sex.

    Now over 3 months longest ever time of no contact and I truly believe it is over. He drove.past me yesterday and acted like I don’t exist.

    I have pretty much cried for the last 24 hours that I meant so little. I want it to be over as would always be the same.

    Narcsite is my reference point, always wanted to believe he isn’t a Narcissist. However, with HG’s help I know he is.

    He probably has someone else, I hope he has in a way and I want to see them. As devastating as that will be and the final arrow through the Heart. I will know that it wasn’t real, as he has moved on so quickly.

    And to my final points (sorry!)

    We believe in Love and the ultimate show of love to us is the intimacy between 2 people, the fun, joy, passion, the connection and it is devastating when we realised it isn’t real / true for them.

    I compartmentalised my marriage where I am the dutiful Wife. My Husband is loved and cared for and I am a good Mum, my daughter has a lot of my attention and time.

    He was my lover and as stupid as it sounds I was monogamous to him and still am.

    I will never have another affair and is a bit rubbish at 46 to know your sex life is over. I could go out for a shag. However, it isn’t me, I would hate it and myself for it.

    We want the Love connection

    Dam you for making us think it was real.

    1. NarcAngel says:

      Not that it would matter to me, but I wonder if he even has cancer or that is just another manipulation. Yes they will go that far.

  17. Tears of Jupiter says:

    Hey hg . I need your help .I could totaly relate to this article and I can identify myself as a dirty empath in the midst of an online realtionship with a woman who i feel has characterustics of a covert narcist . after the love bombing she wanted to move in fast which I resisted and my devaluation started there . I came to the net confused and beleaguered searching for reasons for her mood swings and rage attacks.finally I called it quits but stil couldn’t break away .after goin through Ur site I see most of the tactics she used on me the triangulation the blame shifting the projection .I made the mistake of bringing it up and now she has made me thinkin that im the covert narcist who ensnared the way from wat she has told me her mom is an npd and her husband he sounds like a greater narc .in very confused. Am I a narcist myself portraying myself as a dirty empath? . Did I actuaky ensnare her ? Is she just an unhealthy codependebt (due ti yrs of narc abuse from her mom and husband ) or a covert narc ?I have seen her speakin with empathy about people so it confuses me . I don’t kno wat to believe or trust .my gut instincts say I have never manipulated anybody in my life but im doubting everything now .

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hello TofJ given the need for more information and consideration, your situation is best addressed through consultation.

  18. Insatiable Learner says:

    HG, you often write about exposure of a narcissist as one of the bases for devaluation or disengagement. If the appliance (shelf DLS) sent a gift to the narc and his IPPS with his permission for their baby as a friend of his and that caused the IPPS to question the narc about who this person is, whether this person is into the narc, or seeing the narc, and he had to explain she was a longtime friend and nothing was happening between them which is true, would this qualify as the exposure you are talking about? Just trying to understand what would and would not. Thank you!

  19. Mary says:

    Oh No! I am a Dirty Empath and now I am suffering. I deserve it.

    1. narc affair says:

      Hi mary…ive felt the same way 🙁

    2. Gracie Mac says:

      Mary; you’re not suffering alone. Believe me. But don’t degrade or belittle yourself; by thinking you deserve it. I occasionally go through this line of self- flaggilation when I am feeling sorry for myself; and that’s okay (for a LITTLE while)….but then we have to redirect and correct our false line of thinking. It all a normal part of the vacillating healing process. We’re going to eventually be alright. Look at all of the support we have via this forum!!!
      Thanks to HG!!!

    3. Carol M says:

      You Do Not deserve it. There is a reason the narc dynamic includes in its vocabulary words as ‘prey’, ‘ensnared’, ’embeded’, “seduced”.
      Focus on your healing!

      1. Chuckie says:

        Do not forget “target”.

  20. On My Journey says:

    I finally have an identity and understand my cheating context and also how I can make peace with my Narc side.

    I cheated on the last 3 Narc ( out of 4) . Always as a retaliation for not making me IPPS !! Now I know better.

    The number 3 , when I told him I cheated , he left and gave me the silence treatment for 8 months. We got back together and he ghosted 2 years later after having found a new IPSS. I was so wounded.

    Now I understand and I guess I did not cheated on number 4- although I flirted.

    Piece by peace

    1. W says:

      My guess is the “silent treatment” was a shelving if it lasted 8 months, and he barely thought about you. Would I be right, HG?

      1. HG Tudor says:


      2. On My Journey says:

        Oh you are good . Even after all this time I still can’t put my head together that he was not thinking about me. I had an abortion Under promise he would leave his wife. We travel the world – it is only now that I réalisé he was a narc. My son was so upset at him that he would sit at our table, have family time ( with my parents , siblings, friends … ) and disapeared.

        I was so wounded and maybe still am by his ghosting just before Christmas.

        After 3 years – although I would never take him back, I am still thinking of revenge.

        At the time I could have gone to his business head quarter and force him to talk to me – but I did not wanted to do it because his kids work there and I did not wanted to hurt them.

        He is the narc I believed – really- that we were in that love story above and over the moon.

        The one I have now – I never let myself slide in the I love you shit- I would have never believed it but yet, I am entangled and ensnared. Crazy.

        So thank you for your observation, it is helpful

    2. Lisa says:

      On my journey. Ghosted? Did he block you everywhere?

  21. Wounded says:

    Gracie Mac from one dirty empath to another you are not alone. I fell too, but thankfully my marriage is much stronger. One of the hardest articles to read was about mirroring. I had to take a stone cold look at what was lacking that caused me to fall. Hard to stomach but worth it.

    1. Gracie Mac says:

      Very true! But although my hubby and I have been together for an eternity, we’re in it for the long haul. We love each other, no doubt. However, the problem is that I fell in love with my Narc. I pray daily that my romantic interest in my hubby will return, but so far, no go. The fact that hubby has an ED problem is what lead me to be attracted to the Narc in the first place. Strange, huh? I never had an actual physical relationship with my Narc, but “sex” with him was better than none with my hubby!

  22. SuperXena says:

    *…as the catalyst of the grief process after death, the death of the illusion with the narcissist by learning, knowing and facing the truth of what it was .*

  23. A Wakened says:

    Holy Empath! I think I’ve seen this played out in reality shows on the ID channel! Crazy stuff; Makes so much sense!

    1. Lala says:

      I’m not an ID channel but you are correct in that fake relationships that are said to not be real would therefore be romance scams which is the equivalent to date rape, as a person can not give informed consent to a sexual relationship if they are not told certain facts beforehand, such as current sexual activity (other than you), whether protection was used, and whether they are taking a relationship with you for personal gain….meaning literally if there is any reason other than personal sexual gratification like a place to stay, a hot meal, a maid, a money mooch, to break a chicks spirit or etc that isn’t primarily sexually motivated can be classified as a sexual assault due to lack of informed consent.

      Which is why honesty is the best policy and manipulation will make a rapist out of an ego.

  24. Lisa says:

    I dont know and perhaps HG can add to this, but I feel like a narc likely feels most comfortable with a dirty empath. The dirty empath codependent is very similar to narc. Their core wounds are the same only the dirty empaths true self remained in tact hence the empathy. It has been my experience that there is a magnetic draw between these two because each sees themselves in the other. The narc sees their “good self” in the dirty empath and the dirty empath sees their “narc self ” in narc. So often these two feel like two halves make a whole but in reality they do not

  25. Dirty Lou says:

    Yep, I do have this narcissistic streak.

  26. Gracie Mac says:

    OMG!!! OMG!!! OMG!!! I didn’t know I “existed!” I didn’t know I had an “identity”, a “persona”, a “title!” So, I haven’t gone totally insane!!! WOW!!! I feel so embarrassed! I feel like everyone looking at me will “see” me for what I really am!
    As embarrassed as I am; I’m relieved to know I’m not the only existing dysfunctional cheating empath!!! It gives me a chance to reflect on my previous unfaithful status. Although my “affair” has been over for quite sometime now; this article helped me understand my “role” in my Narcs life. I told my husband about it out of a sense of obligation; and the hope that it would help me end the affair. He was shocked to say the least; however, he eventually forgave me, and we remain in the holy state of matrimony.
    Several unresolved issues remain, however. Mine was an online affair. I fell in love with my “captor” and constantly mourn the agonizing loss relentlessly! I want, love, and need this man; and I don’t want to!
    I’d never heard of such situations and possibilities until I “met” this man (who lives half a world away!). However; the uniqueness of my particular situation makes me feel freakish, odd, and totally alone! I feel like I must have some kind of unidentified mental dysfunction/illness myself!!! I am AND am not glad it’s over! I’m so conflicted, addicted, restricted, and mentally afflicted; that I feel like I’m just existing (living), but not alive.
    Things I know are 1) I never want to experience this kind of association again! 2) I never want to feel this kind of agony ever again! 3) I never want to be verbally abused and integrated like this ever again. 4) I never want to love someone to this insane extent again! 5) I never want to be enslaved this way again. 6) I want to renew my love and relationship with my husband of 40 years. (YES!!!! Not only am I a stupid infatuated fool; but a stupid OLD fool to add insult to injury; who should have known better than to get caught up in such an adolescent fantasy!). Oh my; and so many lessons I’ve learned and actions I regret having engaged in are too numerous to count!
    Not having a real support system to turn to while undergoing this nightmare, has been unbearable as well. So, I appreciate being able to express myself and air my dirty laundry via this forum. As always; thank you one and all who read my rambling raves; and care to offer suggestions, support, encouragement and scolding when needed.This forum has afforded invaluable assistance in dealing with this pitiful, pathetic situation. I always welcome the input.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It is the best, that is why. You are most welcome.

    2. Lisa says:

      There are many online support groups. For me the online thing while it was real it wasn’t real if you know what I mean. Technology makes it feel real but it wasn’t. That’s how I look at it. They are online predators. Online really works for them because it’s not really sex they are looking for its attention. Online affiorda them huge amounts of attention with little effort. Online they don’t have the effort and maintence associated with being proximate

      1. Gracie Mac says:

        Lisa; thanks for that insightful post! You’re so right about the advantages for the Narc of online “associations.” I think it’s a very “smart” and cowardly way for them to get their “jollies.” They can disappear, and leave the prey to deal with their misery and sufferings alone; without having to be bothered/see the emotional upheaval they KNOW they have caused.
        I’ve often been left wishing I could physically (not via Skype!) confront that insensitive rat!!!

    3. K says:

      Gracie Mac
      From one Dirty Empath to another, I love when people air their dirty laundry, ramble, rave and rant. Keep it coming!

      1. Gracie Mac says:

        Thanks to HG first of all for developing this forum. It is allowing me to express my grief, anger, and all of the other grieving process stages.
        K, I appreciate being among other Dirty Empaths such as myself. Thanks for the invitation to continue to “express” myself, not be judged for doing so, and to be “accepted” into a fold of others who have and/or had similar experiences/feelings.
        I’m looking forward to reading, learning, and occasionally commenting on other comments on my continued journey towards recovery. Again, thanks to all for your contributions and “healing” advice, comments, inputs, and insights!

        1. K says:

          My pleasure, Gracie Mac!

      2. Lisa says:

        Gracie I hate to tell you this will likely happen again. I had the same thing happen. I thought it was isolated to that and while it is you keep trying to solve the trauma hence you will likely attract another Narc. One came my way in the form of NISS who quickly wanted me as IPSS.

      3. Lisa says:

        Oh sorry Gracie I meant that reply for Sarabella

  27. KRG says:

    Lisa, where art thou?

    I think we will identify with one of the Dirty Empath strands in the near future.

    1. Lisa says:

      What do you mean?

      1. KRG says:

        I meant maybe we aren’t Super Empaths but Dirty ones?

  28. Redhair says:

    In my case my partner even don’t know the existence of the narcissist guy. Will never know specially because is over. I was left in misery for the first month. Now I feel a weight left my shoulders.Now I feel comfortable, protected by my partner, loved by him. And I am pregnant what is beautiful.

  29. Jayburn says:

    Speaking as a former Dirty Empath, I think it is far more injurious to the narcissist for the empath to have a non-sexual emotional affair, as opposed to a merely physical one. This signals greatly to the narc that they have lost control and that their window to the empath is closed while another window that they have no knowledge or jurisdiction over has been opened. Needless to say, once the truth is revealed, hell hath no fury…

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Not necessarily, the narcissist may choose not to have a sexual affair. Not all narcissists want to engage in sexual activity (see Victim and Cerebral Cadres).

      1. Jayburn says:

        Since leaving this comment, I had an insight – the narcissist with whom I was having the affair may have been (unknowingly) carrying out the dirty work for the ex-wife (also a narcissist) as I was quickly reduced to a mental shambles in a few months. This is certainly something which the ex would have welcomed and perhaps only the loss of their own control over my situation caused outrage – but not entirely.

    2. Empress1 says:

      oooh! Interesting, I have left my narc, but seeing an amazing man -a good man (but no intimacy- I am just not attracted to him that way and he wants to spoil me so I NEVER end up with a narc again) Narc knows about this man — spoiling me and I would have thought narc would have no problem with this— perhaps I am wrong? Hmmmm….. maybe this adds to my SuperNova?

  30. Ruth says:

    Have you yet written at any length about the contagion empath? I am wondering if I have missed it.
    I do find it very amusing that when you cheat it’s “just what you must do”… but when the empath does it, they are “dirty”…LOL

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I have Ruth, but I have not published the material yet. It will come in due course.

      1. Ruth says:

        Thank you. I will pay close attention for it, so as not to have to bother you again.

  31. Lisa says:

    Impending misery. This is exactly why I will no longer be engaging with the Narc. Narc not blocked because blocking will raise many flags with common friends. Narc has shelfed me. Narc has told me there is another ipss which is fine. If Narc contacts me, I am happy to be polite as I don’t want any problems with the Narc

    Do you see a problem with this type of NC HG? This scares me too much and I am done with any type of romantic involvement

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Indeed I do.

      1. Lisa says:

        Why? I am done with this Narc. Done. There is no possible good outcome here. None. but I figure if I don’t rock the boat i may never hear from him again or maybe I get a hoover which I handle politely but with neutrality. If I block this guy, hes gonna get mad and my guess is the smearing will commence. I’d like to avoid that as we are very intertwined with friends. He said he wants to be friends. Can I not accommodate that ? I have no intention whatsoever of ever being romantically involved again . None. There is no possibility of a good outcome and I no this, but can’t. I just maybe escape annihilation?After all, he has told me there is someone else so perhaps the ocassional hello and that’s it and everyone is happy? Why can that not work ? Honestly I’d block him if I didn’t know for certain it would raise a bunch of red flags to many people

      2. Sarabella says:

        And an empath who is discarded fully 35 years prior and who is targeted again, but the empath was so hurt first time, she doesn’t actually remember the hurt or unil after she is lured in. Tells husband about her long lost first love. But she know something is wrong, fights to get away, wounds Narc badly, he goes into ulirreversible need to punish emoath, empath is ripped apart by grief that he was o my playing the long lost love of her life, and that’s the greatest cause of the profound hurt. The stiring up of deep old adolescent wounds of rejection. Greater really than the present reality because the empath was fighting to get away be for she knew exactly why but knew she was in danger so displayed very conflicted behavior to narc, I love you one moment, go rot in hell the next until it all erupted into one great massive supernova mode. Empath still grieves for the loss of a childhood hurt girl. Narc offered many times “friendship”, to keep something going. Empath said no thank you, you either lovr me fully and openly and there is only me, or I don’t want you. I deserve what you took from me decades ago. Narc and empath in raging fights parted ways.

        I have a great sexual relationship with husband but when it started with narc, things were dry. I repaired the sex with husband as part of breaking away from the emotional hurt from narc and because though narc is somatic, he sucked as a lover. Emoath knew not only was she never going to be loved as she deserved, narc would never make her sexually feel loved and cherished.

        Narc is gone. I randomly miss his attention but it was all a lie. I only have left to heal the loss of what I thought he was finally giving me and it was worse this time than as a young girl.

        I don’t think I am a dirty empath. I have no interest in sexual relations with any other man. I had just wanted the old childhood first crush and love of my life to this time, really love me. He still couldnt. The rejection of the dream, the reminders of my very painful teenage years that this made me relive, hurts more than his repeated rejection if that makes sense because I really know that he could never lovr anyone and never did. I k ow this is the reason he is an old, desperate somatic narc who has no primary and only a bucket full of random kinds of supply

        I could see how I would almost fit here, but I don’t think I so, except for in one small way. But if I hadn’t known somewhere in my unconscious that I already had loved him, I don’t think this would have ever happened oe that I ccould be lured in by some strange narc’s golden period seduction games.

        The only scenario missing in this, is for those of us targeted by the narc after decades. 🙁

      3. Lisa says:

        Sarabella, I hate to tell you this will likely happen again. I had the same thing happen. I thought it was isolated to that and while it is you keep trying to solve the trauma hence you will likely attract another Narc. One came my way in the form of NISS who quickly wanted me as IPSS.

  32. W says:

    I just realized – my last lovership with a raging alcoholic – with harsh abusive and narc tendencies (maybe just from alcoholism) ….I supernova’d his butt then got sober and left
    Ugh. I think I’ve been in supernova mode for years
    WHY what was the appeal? Too tiring and scary

  33. W says:

    I feel like a little kid that got on the roller coaster and is now almost at the top of the hill and regretting their choice immensely .
    .. I can’t even deal with READING it

    1. Skc8130 says:

      I have the same feelings when I read these posts.
      I hope w get better.

      1. Melissa says:

        God Bless You*……KEEP READING

      2. SuperXena says:

        Hello Skc8130’and W,

        You will get better. This is exactly how these articles are supposed to work: as the catalyst of the grief process after death, the death of the illusion with the narcissist.It comes in different stages:

        SHOCK & DENIAL
        PAIN & GUILT
        ACCEPTANCE & HOPE( on yourself)

        Just keep on learning!

  34. W says:

    Halfway thru and I think I’m going to have a panic attack
    AND confused beyond belief

    1. NarcAngel says:

      Hang in there and read it in small bits if you have to, but read it all and keep on reading the articles. If its affecting you then you need to be here and reading. If you are confused ask questions.

      1. Lala says:

        There’s no point in reading any of this other than to screenshot as evidence that someone knowingly abused me on purpose almost identically to the blogs posted here, as if this were an instruction manual on how to be a cheating, abusive, misogynistic chauvinist pig with an air of immunity from repercussion

        But literally absolutely zero was learned or will ever be learned from negative mistreatment.

        It doesn’t make anyone stronger. They don’t get more independent. They aren’t more resilient. It just creates trauma.

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