No Contact No Nos

NO CONTACT NO NOs

No Contact is THE key to beating the narcissist.

Most people get it wrong. There are two reasons for this.

1. Not understanding the requirements of a Total No Contact Regime , and

2. The misleading effect of Emotional Thinking.

As part of the first element, the establishment and maintenance of a Total No Contact Regime means not only knowing what you MUST do for your Total No Contact Regime, but also what you MUST NOT do.

No Contact No Nos provides comprehensive information about the fundamental errors and primary risks which exist to your Total No Contact Regime so that you know what they are, how they threaten your regime and what you can do to make sure your Total No Contact Regime is properly implemented and also securely maintained.

This extremely useful and eye-opening guide tackles the weaknesses to your no contact regime in an effective and straightforward manner and is available for just US $ 5.

Obtain it here

75 thoughts on “No Contact No Nos

  1. Edie says:

    For some reason I am unable to LIKE things tonight so thank you HG. Guys I am having a rough day. A friend of his called me ‘his ex’ on IG today and I lost it. I returned with a ‘first of all you have to be in a relationship to be an ex and apparently we were not it was all a façade’ then anxiety attack and eventually I defriended and blocked his friend but not before saying “He gets nothing from me. No ex title, nothing. He mentally and emotionally raped me. I want zero connections to him. Nothing personal’ Ive known this guy for 30 years as well but when he said ‘well youre my friends ex so’ I cant explain the disdain I felt. After ALL of the pain he has caused me he doesnt get to be anything to me. Nothing. AND my ‘hoover’ I got was because of my strength text telling him how I felt and uses my courage and turns it around on him. His opening email which I have so many thats start out this way I thought it was an old one. ‘I know I broke your heart in the worst possible way and I hate myself for this…’ PLEASE! LIES!!!! HG was me telling his friend this breaking the NC? and what if he doesnt think he is a narc? I have emails from him of each stage. Im so tired of this. I moved across country thinking we would get back together. Im such an idiot. So tired of feeling this way. Im changing my phone number tomorrow and moving back home to get this f*** out of my head.

  2. Insatiable Learner says:

    Hello NarcAngel, thank you for your comments and question. You asked for an honest answer to your question. First off, I am not challenging or rejecting HG’s assertion that there is a risk of a hoover. A risk is just that a risk. Some risks are so negligible and unlikely to happen that I will do nothing about them. In this case, I consider a risk of a hoover in my situation so unlikely that I do nothing about it. So far, my assessment held. In fact, with the first narc, it has now held for 5 years. Now just to be clear, I have never been an IPPS. I have reached such complete indifference with the first narc (as HG puts it “zero impact”) that I do not have a care in the world as to whether I will ever hear or not hear from him. He simply does not exist in my world. Now with the most recent narc, I am not yet over him. I am slowly moving in that direction but he still has a strong hold over me. Now if he were to hoover, at this point in time, I would not be able to resist him. I wish it was not so. Now, here is the main reason why I think it is important that such generalizations as “narcs always hoover” not be made and corrected where possible. In the beginning, hearing and reading so many proclaim narcs always hoover gave me some hope that I would hear from the last narc. I still wanted to hear from him and wanted to engage with him. So I was clinging to the hope that he would hoover because, well, everyone says narcs always hoover. But he did not. Needless to say how painful in itself that was. Many who freshly get out of their narc relationship read over and over again that narcs always hoover, narcs always come back, you will hear from them again, etc. desperately hang on to this belief fueled by false generalizations instead of focusing on their recovery, detaching from the narc, and moving on. Do you see how emotionally and psychologically detrimental these generalizations can be for those who are still mired in emotions and disbelief that such heartless monsters as narcs exist and, especially, that they themselves were involved with one (or several)? HG likes honesty with no sugarcoating on here and he likes to correct inaccuracies to make sure readers receive accurate information they can depend on and be enlightened by. So let’s,for the sake of honesty and accuracy, declare that “narcs always come back” and “narcs always hoover” proclaimed by many participants on here are simply inaccurate generalizations that are not grounded in facts but instead extrapolations based on limited personal experience. Hope this helps you see where I am coming from. Thank you for reading!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Not everyone says narcs always hoover. I have never stated as such.

      1. Insatiable Learner says:

        HG, I did not say you said that. Please see my response to NarcAngel. I said you stated there is a risk. I said many participants on here say narcs always hoover. With that said, most of your no contact related articles have a pretty forceful undertone suggesting hoovers are almost, for all practical purposes, certain. For example, in the no contact suicide article and I paraphrase, “if you keep electronic means open, you WILL be hoovered.” You could have said , “you MAY be hoovered” or ” you are making the hoover more likely” or something along the lines of possibility but no, you chose “WILL.” Here is from the Cambridge dictionary: “One of the main uses of “will” is to refer to things in the future that we think are certain:”

        1. HG Tudor says:

          No IL, I was referring to your sentence “So I was clinging to the hope that he would hoover because, well, everyone says narcs always hoover.” Everyone would include me. I don’t say that. Thus not everyone says it. That was all.

      2. Insatiable Learner says:

        OK, HG, that’s fair. However, you did not address this part of my response. “:With that said, most of your no contact related articles have a pretty forceful undertone suggesting hoovers are almost, for all practical purposes, certain. For example, in the no contact suicide article and I paraphrase, “if you keep electronic means open, you WILL be hoovered.” You could have said , “you MAY be hoovered” or ” you are making the hoover more likely” or something along the lines of possibility but no, you chose “WILL.” Here is from the Cambridge dictionary: “One of the main uses of “will” is to refer to things in the future that we think are certain”

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I stand by comment re electronic devices. That is no contact suicide, IL.

    2. DUTG says:

      Insatiable, I understand where you are coming from. To keep this brief, I think there is some missing language when it is said ‘narcs always hoover’. The missing content is ‘when there is something in it for them’. Prior to my divorce but after he moved out, I was ‘hoovered’…the proverbial carrot being hung out in front of me, him knowing I didn’t actually want a divorce. I just couldn’t go in living with all of the turmoil and chaos. Once I actually filed and ever since, he’s not hoovered me. He replaced me. But I have an awareness that when it suits him, if his resources (fuel, money) dry up, I run the risk of being hoovered for HIS needs, not mine.

      There is an order to understanding this disorder. First, we have to recognize that a narc only has his or her own best interests at heart. That makes us realize we really do not want to be hoovered. Yes, did I want him to return recognizing his selfish and abusive ways and truly wanting to change? Did I want him to return to validate for me that I did really mean something? That our marriage was not disposable? Yes. Welcome to the emotional sea DUTG! When I wished for a Hoover and became disappointed for not getting one – trust me I was bruised by that for a long time – a wise poster helped me see I had not fully grasped the true essence of what he was.

      It took him showing me who he was in all of his nastiness and emotional brutality during the divorce process that I finally grasped what she meant. I was an IPPS and I had a hard time learning about not wanting the Hoover. I also get that it is even harder as an IPSS as I’ve been one of those too.

      1. Insatiable Learner says:

        Hello DUTG, Thank you so much for sharing your experience and your understanding. I found what you said here very helpful: ” I think there is some missing language when it is said ‘narcs always hoover’. The missing content is ‘when there is something in it for them’.
        Keeping this in mind makes embracing the truth so much easier. Thank you for that gem of wisdom!

      2. DUTG says:

        Insatiable, I rambled after saying I’d be brief 😊

    3. NarcAngel says:

      Hi Insatiable Learner

      Thank you so much for taking the time to answer a question that continued to puzzle me. I conclude that we have been looking at it from different perspectives. Yours is that there is danger in awaiting that hoover and not focusing on your recovery, where mine is that the danger is in dismissing that it is likely to happen and being caught unaware, providing fuel, and being dragged back into that dynamic. Can you see how emotionally and psycologically detrimental a setback that could be for someone who has moved on with the belief it was unlikely? That is what I understood as HGs reason to stress a greater likelihood for it to happen. As a warning and protection against it. I also see a danger in those who think that it will not happen because they went Supernova or wounded the narc. Yes it will raise the bar, but I can assure you that I have wounded my share of narcs (and I think we all know I dont mean I slapped them on the hand or voiced my disapproval eloquently lol), but both my sweet, sweet, and also bloody and thunderous fuel, has always proven worthy of another shot. It has also been confirmed by a large percentage (not limited from my view) of the commenters here that it is likely to happen. Also, in the exchange between you and DUTG I note that you include the reasoning “where there is something in it for them”. While this is true, we may not be the best judge of what THEY think is in it for them, since we fail to make sense of most of the things they deem worthy of doing. In any case, I thank you for not taking offence to my question and sharing your respectful explanation and concern, in turn giving me some insight to an alternate viewpoint.

      Imma still go with HGs warning though lol.
      NA

  3. Edie says:

    Lori I think you are correct with the shiny and new theory. I believe mine thinks the same way. HG if you can answer a question. What if we send them a pic with someone new would that stop the hoovering? Im still learning it is all new to me. Thank you!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      No, it would not.

    2. sarabella says:

      Yeah, no. They are selfish. Mine said, when I see something I want, I just go after it. He meant women. Its actually quite convenient if that woman is with someone. It becomes their handy fallback discard when they want control and positive fuel has become toxic negative fuel … “well, you just forget about me, go back to your relationship, you will be fine.” After they invested all this energy into faking that you ever meant a thing to them. You risk everything for their lives and they pull that discard. What power it is that they had the ability to possibly wreck your relationship for fun and games when they had no intention of ever being with you and only you to begin with. They try to lure you away, probably get fuel from the other partner who probably doesn’t know, get fuel from controling you and knowing you are in a no win situation (gambling if you leave your partner, will the narc then be with you)…. and then the ultimate discard… go back to your life…I am done, bored, over you.

      1. Julie says:

        Sarabella, i agree they would try and ruin a new relationship. Had it done when my greater ousted my new lesser. I find it disturbing how they dont want you yet dont want anyone else to have you either. Its a life sentence. Even if its just the thinking of them from time to time we will never be rid of them.

  4. Insatiable Learner says:

    Hi Lori,

    Sorry you are struggling today! I am going on over 6 months of no contact. I had gone 7 months no contact a year ago. This was the longest. Then sent him a happy birthday text. Did I get anything good of it? No. In the end, just more pain. More cognitive dissonance. More mind screwing. I am looking forward to crossing this new 7 months NC line and will keep going! It does get much better with time but it is not yet completely pain-free. It comes and goes but it does not linger and you start feeling happier, more relaxed, and clear-headed. You start seeing the illusion and fakery more. He starts appearing less and less appealing. Your self-respect starts growing more and more. Hang in there! Like you said, contact always = pain. This is so true. Stay away from pain! Stay NC!

    1. Lori says:

      Thank you. I know the drill. In not new to this. I have extensive knowledge on this? but let this be a lesson that knowledge doesn’t translate to being healed and certainly doesn’t mean it won’t happen again. What it is is awareness. What you do with your awareness is a whole other issue.

      1. Insatiable Learner says:

        Hi Lori, you are absolutely right. Awareness is necessary but insufficient. It’s what you do with it that matters. Hope you are feeling better today.

    2. SMH says:

      I have to laugh, ruefully, because I went six months no contact last year, send a message – just wanting to touch base and apologize for something. It has taken four months to dis-engage again. That happened today but I have ALREADY broken NC because there were a few more things I wanted to say! If I could just stop TALKING, NC would be easier! Hahaha. Hoping this time it’s for good or at least easier, since I did survive those six months. Besides, I think I’ve been replaced (he’s married and I suspect he has a new affair partner, if there weren’t many of us this whole time – I really have no idea).

      1. Lori says:

        Same thing happened to me new ipss. Thanks for reminding me that one contact takes weeks or months to bounce back from.

        When you say disengage we’re you talking to him regularly after the 6 months?

        1. SMH says:

          Lori, As soon as I contacted him – mind you, I did it just as a friend – he wanted to revive the relationship (an affair). But I did not commit. Instead, I closely watched his behavior over the next two weeks and made damned sure that I stayed calm, light and positive. He emailed constantly but as soon as I innocently initiated contact he began to withdraw. I then clearly saw why I felt like a human ping pong ball. I told him I did not want to have an affair any longer and that I did not want to be in contact, even as friends, unless his marriage ended.

          He ignored my wishes and sent pity hoovers over the next three weeks. I was supportive and tried to be friends. But I made the mistake of teasing him, and got weeks of silent treatment, which made me furious. I found this site when I was Googling ‘why doesn’t he answer my text messages.’ I was pretty sure he was a narc but it all fell into place. HG describes him to a T.

          About a month ago, after 3 weeks of silence (stalemate, basically), I felt his ever presence and saw that he had stalked me online (which he denied). I decided I needed to cut the cord, which meant having him delete our thousands of emails with me watching because I don’t trust him. It took loads of communication and mental energy but today he did it.

          So it took four months to escape again, and we were in contact most of that time, though did not see each other from January until today.

          As far as the new IPSS goes, I briefly saw a name in his email inbox. Since his email is secret and doesn’t use his real name, I am sure she is a new fuel source. Because I ‘escaped’ (ended the relationship) in January, I can hardly care much. I told him then that I was sure he would find a new affair partner – that I didn’t respect it but that it wasn’t my life. (Understand that I was deceived and had not set out to have an affair.) I don’t think I am easily replaced but as HG has pointed out, the narc’s behavior is largely unconscious. He needs the fuel, I withdrew fuel. He found another source. He has his co-dependent wife as well.

          This time, by the way, I did not insist on no contact but we decided to only see each other in person (as friends) because we had terrible communication problems in writing. He has not deleted me from his phone contacts, nor have I blocked him on email or in any other way. But I am mentally much more prepared because of those six months NC, which were tough.

          My feeling — and I know that HG will disagree – is that complete NC might not always be the best path. It is sometimes easier to work on letting go – to mentally disengage – and not worry about it instead of fighting NC at every waking moment. I do understand the difference but for my narc I imagine it is more of a blow to know that I don’t have problems staying connected. Might be famous last words but he is moving, has a wife, and I hope to soon be dating someone who has been on the back burner for a few years because first I was married and then I met the narc.

          Ironically, the narc wouldn’t give me his phone number for most of our relationship. He finally gave it to me in January and I only used it in the past week for messaging. I was petrified but he has not batted an eye. In fact, now he talks about calling me!! I don’t think it will happen but if it does I will handle it. I did have very strong feelings for him but I feel a difference now. I am not so sad to ‘lose’ him because I finally realize that I didn’t have much to begin with. He had more. The loss is his.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            SMH

            Just an observation and not intended as criticism, but are you sure you want to be done with him? There appear to be many examples in your post where your actions belie your words, and I wonder if your emotional thinking is ramping up so subtlety that you have not noticed. You of course need not answer me, but I thought you might ask yourself honestly.

          2. SMH says:

            NarcAngel,

            I am not in the least offended by the question. I am rarely ever done with anyone! I have my problems too – one of them is serial monogamy. I was just out of a marriage and not ready for a ‘real’ relationship when I met him. But I did not anticipate the lack of human warmth and engagement. The lack of fun. What is the point of a casual relationship if it is not fun? We had/have very intense chemistry which made everything extra confusing, but now I realize that is a completely unrelated issue.

            It took me two years to get to this point so it has not been easy, I have struggled with NC over those years, and the last month has been one of the most stressful because transitions are hard. That is the period I have been posting about here. Over the past few years he has hoovered me many times, but that was before I was aware of what he was doing and called him out.

            Could he reel me back? Probably not. I see and know too much, thanks in part to this site. I am an emotional thinker but not co-dependent, not full of love and understanding. I don’t need someone to define me and I can be quite selfish too. I am not nice when I feel backed into a corner or disrespected. I can also be quite avoidant with an anxious attacher, but he doesn’t attach so there is no need to push him away.

            I’ve told him what he needs to do and how he needs to be if he wants to be with me. He is unable or unwilling to meet those criteria, which include transparency, full presence, and leaving his marriage. I am also partially protected by the fact that he is moving back home (we are both expats but he is Canadian and I am American).

            I don’t anticipate ever knowing that we are done. I do anticipate getting beyond it. Just from the massive email erasure yesterday I feel much lighter. Plus he is hurt and doesn’t want more body blows from my mouthy mouth.

            I think it all depends on the sort of narc one is dealing with and the sort of person one is. I think it is just as risky and unhealthy to play the victim as it is to succumb to the narc’s every whim. I could go full NC but I don’t feel the need. I know exactly why I got involved with him, what it means in terms of my own emotional development, and where my priorities are now. It is not all his fault.

          3. NarcAngel says:

            SMH
            Thank you for expanding.

          4. SMH says:

            NarcAngel, I’ve been thinking about what you wrote and what I wrote in response. I think I will go NC because one of the problems has been online stalking. One of the ways we are still connected encourages it (WhatsApp), and I do think about it. I just don’t want to do it in a heightened emotional state because he’ll think it’s revenge and that will be more fuel. I’ll wait a few weeks and then disappear him.

            I have a question for HG (or anyone really) – what do you think about telling the IPPS? She is a ‘normal’ co-dependent. My main reason is that he puts her at risk because he resists using protection.

          5. HG Tudor says:

            You can try but I would not advocate it because

            1. She is not your battle;
            2. She is unlikely to respond owing to her own heightened ET and the position of her ensnarement;
            3. You are in effect still engaging with the narcissist (by talking about him, thinking about him and his current IPPS) thus breaching your own NC and impacting on your own ET; and
            4. It may have repercussions for you form the narcissist by way of malign hoover.

            Hard as it is to reign in your saviour traits, you need to look to your own defences and then later, from distance, perhaps look to assist.

          6. NarcAngel says:

            SMH

            What HG said. Im a Saviour and I wouldnt do that.

          7. SMH says:

            NarcAngel, I don’t think I am a Savior. I think that’s my excuse but I worry that I am being vindictive and really want to symbolically kill him, which is why I have stopped myself before. Everything I have read about it (and my own therapist) says to tell – that she has the right to make her own choices based on transparency. I have told him this – I am just the flip side of what he does to her. Shouldn’t I have known up front who he was and that he was married? Maybe I would have made the same choices but those would have been under my control. Shouldn’t she know who he is and that he is having affairs? Maybe she will choose to stay but at least the choice will be under her control. It is one of the thorniest moral dilemmas I have ever had…

          8. NarcAngel says:

            SMH
            Only you can answer honestly to yourself (not me) if its actually the case that you want to tell her because if youre not going to have him neither will she, or to get back at him. No one likes to think that is the reason-they like to think its the more noble cause of concern. Devils advocate-let me ask you this: When you found out he was married did you drop him immediately, not engage further sexually, and tell her? No? Why was this not a dilemma then? If she is told, Im sure he will tell her that you were the only other, the same as you thought she was the only other and it didnt stop you from continuing. From the outside then it appears that you only want to tell her now that you are exiting the relationship. I had a married woman tell me (years later) that she did not appreciate her husbands mistress telling her. She knew but could ignore it, until she was faced with it and was required to address it. She stayed and it made her feel weak. She spoke with contempt about the woman who she perceived ruined things but not her husband. I think the partner knows more often than you think they do. I cant believe your therapist would suggest that, but then shes not the one delivering the news is she?
            I am not, and could not, judge you on having an affair, but I wont lie-your reason for telling her seems like it might be less than concern. Shes a big girl and that is her husband. She may see what she wants to see. Is it up to you to force her to?

          9. SMH says:

            OK thanks. I get all that and there is no rush. I’ve come close before, thinking it was the only way to free myself (he knows this). She did kick him out for cheating before me, so I know she doesn’t accept it as part of her bargain. But she must not realize *what* he is because she asked to reconcile and dragged him to counseling. He went while carrying on with me (I did not know this at the time). He goes through the motions to keep that part of his life stable. I do feel for her…but I will hold off.

      2. SMH says:

        NarcAngel, But I could have had him. I escaped the relationship. He did not discard me. Never has (shelved me, yes, devalued me, yes, triangulated, yes, but never discarded). I never asked him to leave his wife. Your objections are what people usually call ‘mistress malice’ but that is not the case here. There might be malice but it is not mistress malice.

        Let’s just say that I did not know if was an affair for a year, and then I finally left six months later, though he tried to draw me back a few months ago. I have left him half a dozen times. He has never left me. Now I think I have made the final break, helped by the fact that he is moving.

        I am not innocent and I don’t purport to be, but the final loose end for me was those emails, and I think that partly stopped me from contacting her. I don’t mind if she knows who I am, if she wants to, but I don’t want her or anyone else to have access to my intimate thoughts or to my virtual life with him.

        She kicked him out once before for an affair. So it’s not as if she is willing to live with it. It is also not unlikely that she would find out anyway. There are very few degrees of separation between us. It could be anyone who tells her. I would do it anonymously in a way that could not be traced back to me. To be honest, I think she is just as much at fault because she enables his predatory behavior through her own stupidity and need to mainatin a facade and a lifestyle. Still, I don’t think she deserves an STI or the humiliation…

        1. Narc Angel says:

          SMH

          I could respond further, but I get the feeling it would be appreciated about as much as his wife would appreciate your concern for her. So I will just say thank you for the conversation and good luck going forward.

          NA

          1. SMH says:

            NarcAngel, I hope you’re not offended because I’ve actually appreciated this conversation with you. Lots of food for thought. I’m not sure where you are coming from but I don’t feel that strongly about it either way. For me, time heals wounds and I am sure this too will pass. If I didn’t do it when I was in the thick of it and super angry, I probably won’t do it now, if for no other reason than what HG said – that I am continuing to engage with the narc by even thinking about it. He is right. Even time spent on this board is time spent ‘with’ the narc. But I stay because it helped me through the last step in my escape (and I pat myself on the back for the email purge because it was an awful lot of mental work and tears and frustration to get it done) and I find the discussions super interesting – that we could all have such similar experiences with such odd people 🙂

          2. Narc Angel says:

            SMH
            No. I was not offended at all.

  5. Kensey says:

    All I can say is I’m building a new self that protects my old self.
    Bring it.

    1. LYNN says:

      yes we are never the same again but we are wise and won’t get caught again. I wish you well friend that you have a really happy narc free life going ahead xx

    2. NarcAngel says:

      In response to Kenseys comment:

      It strikes me that those words could have been spoken by HG also when constructing the facade.

    3. sarabella says:

      It may seem like a facade. But here is where an empath may differ from a narc. I may inside, still long for what was never real. If I am honest about it, acknowledge its there, be honest about missing him, loving him, even as I see what a horrible person he is (which is why I went back and forth with him, even making him crazy… telling him I love him, and then I dislike him the next moment because I saw the lost kid in him once for one brief moment and then his narcissismt took over so I can react to both parts of him and thus the I love you, I can’t stand you the next), and there will never be a friendship or loving relationship between he and I, I still can create a facade/boundaries/fake it until you make it shield and still keep him out of my life. I think the narcissist has lost touch with the love, all the genuine needs inside and the longing and has become the facade. He has become the mask. The important part is to not forget why the facade or sheild has been created.

      1. SMH says:

        Sarabella, I agree that the narc has lost touch with love. The narc doesn’t bond or attach, so the narc cannot love. It is difficult for a normal person to accept. But you can love someone and not be able to be with them. Love does not conquer all.

  6. LYNN says:

    I am one of those that feels absolutely sure this time that I will never be hoovered again. He blocked me because I called him out. Everything I had learned via U tube about the conditioned I mirrored with examples of his behaviour, I did it incessantly until he text STOP STOP in the end he blocked me after saying please leave me with our happy memories with a beautiful women, that’s rich when he had previously told me that when he had told me I was the love of his life that it had all been a lie.
    This I reminded him of.
    I think maybe calling them out is the best way to stop them hoovering as they know if they do then the calling out will happen again. Although inside I would want to go back with him despite everything which I know means I am psychologically a mess I know if wont happen because I know I would not be able to stop telling him what I know and what he is and call him out in the most harsh ways because I want him to see if he doesn’t and for him to know I’m on to him, I would still tell him I still feel love for him for the good times though and wish he could have been normal.
    What do you think HG do you think Calling out a Narc will stop the hoovering, will it frighten them away. I think hes a middle Narc so would he know deep down its true about him and would that make him afraid of hearing the truth or enjoy arguing over it. I know he hated it before?
    If he does hoover I will let you know straight away but I’m so sure he wont. your advice please everyone, particularly HG
    my responses will be slow over next few days as I am going away for a few days.

    Lynn

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Wrong.

      1. The Mid Ranger does not accept and cannot accept the “calling out”.
      2. The hatred you describe may have been a response to :-
      (a) wounding ; or
      (b) The need to exert superiority owing to a Challenge Fuel situation
      it depends on how you executed the “calling out”.
      3. The impact of this “calling out” is only ONE factor amongst many others of the Hoover Execution Criteria and therefore it could be overridden by other factors.
      4. The impact of “calling out” fades over time.

      It is an error to assume that there will never be a hoover. It is an error to assume that “calling out” guarantees there will no hoover. Yes, it may well result in the HEC not being achieved for some time, but it is not a guarantee.

      1. Julie says:

        I told mine it was much easier pulling a lighting bolt out of a dogs ass than getting an apology from a narcissist … they come back.

      2. Kathryn says:

        I was so certain of the same- that my narc will not hoover, HG. Your response surprises me. I too called out my narc- telling his adult daughter that he was heartless and I would no longer allow it. (I had been his primary source for the past year) I unfriended and ceased contact with him at that point…to which he sent me a message stating that he would contact police if I ever contacted him or his family again. Claimed that I need help, that I am extremely jealous of the new woman in his life. It is an awkward situation though as we – as well as the new woman- are all coworkers. We do not speak to eachother. I had a mtg with superiors, nervous that he will put my job into jeopardy. It has been a month, of golden silence.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          A month is not long at all.

          1. W says:

            A month is nothing in the grand scheme of things. My narcoholic sends out a Hoover by proxy every six weeks or so.
            My UMR just hoovered for the first time (that I know of)…since NC , …was almost 2 months .

      3. Lori says:

        You are correct HG. I thought Mid Range would never ever contact me again after out final blow up

        4 months later … he called to congratulate me on my promotion. We never resumed the formal relationship and went our separate ways. Fast forward 13 years and the invention of Facebook and there he was..

        It does not matter what has been said or done. It simply doesn’t. They are addicted to the feeling they get when they suck you in one more time. I actually think they prefer a good bit of time to lapse because then you become bright shiny and new all over as if you are meeting for the first time again only better because they have all this faux intimacy from the past they can draw on. They like “the one that got away” and you finding your way back to each other drama.

        It’s all bullshit but they love it

        I think that’s part of the irritation they feel when you continue to contact post discard. They think how the fuck am I supposed to like strawberry ice cream ever again if you keep feeding it to me. Please go away so I can enjoy my chocolate at present but soon crave strawberry.

        They will come back no matter the circumstance of departure. Maybe not every single time but 90 percent or more of the time

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Indeed I am Lori and thank you for your honesty in confirming the situation you experienced.

      4. Agnes says:

        Lynn, HG is right. I can tell you that my MR was hoovering me for months almost every week. And when he tried last time (a nice text with some compliments) I didn’t respond to it and blocked him on social media. His response? He didn’t try to reach to me anymore – he just blocked me back. I believe he did it to punish me for ignoring and blocking him (reaction to woundind and trying to exert superiority). It’s been over a month and no hoover from him, finally I found my peace. I am still blocked, he is still blocked. Since I blocked him he doubled his efforts to seduce others to gain fuel he no longer gains from me. But I believe that when I unblock him or go see him in person, he would start the hoovering cycle once again. So block him and don’t look back. If you open the doors and he will need your fuel, he will find his way to come to you once again.

      5. Lori says:

        Today is better. When you aren’t feeling well and I wasn’t yesterday it makes it worse. One day at time

        I just tell myself, I will not contact today. I worry about each day as it comes? but honestly the discomfort I feel is still better than being mind fucked and accepting crumbs daily

      6. SMH says:

        Lori (not sure I am posting this in the right place), regarding their return after you think it MUST be over – that happened to me so many times! I used to find it shocking. Not anymore. In the past, I’ve called him a control freak, a sexual abuser, a liar and a cheat, I demanded he pay for my therapy, and on and on and on. It was not until I said he was a man-baby (meant affectionately and in jest when I was at work and he wanted attention) and later, in all seriousness and anger, a psychopath, a bully and a stalker, that he appeared to get midly offended (well, he found the man-baby thing more offensive than the psychopath thing). You have to find the weaknesses. I’m not saying mine won’t come back (he’s not gone since I did not go NC) but what we think is calling out is not what they think is calling out untill you find the ego cracks, and twist the knife in really deep. Mine was flattered to be called controlling, a liar and a cheat! Ha.

      7. LYNN says:

        Thank u HG

    2. sarabella says:

      That reminds me of when he begged me to stop as well. Begged me a few times now that I think of it. Begged me to settle down but I had slid far with my own narc traits. I could look at a few points in our “relationship” and say, if It hadn’t progressed as far as it did, then yes, he would hoover me. I always knew it wasn’t over only I misunderstood always why that was true and what was feeding that reality. But it went far. Very, very far in insults and attacks. I gave back as hard as he did. It was supernova on steroids. So it will be a long time before it wears off. He will probably be dead by then.

      1. Lori says:

        2 weeks in again and I’m struggling some today. I know this man is no good for me or anyone else. Contact will do no good and continue the pain. He cannot love me or anyone else. He is living breathing but not capable of love no matter what the outward appearance is

        Contact = pain

        I can do this.

        1. sarabella says:

          I felt a shift in my situation when I really started to understand how incapable of love (as a verb) my narc was. No one who is trying to crawl into so many women’s pants is ever capable of anything of depth and passion.

      2. Lori says:

        Insults are nothing. Narc 1 and I had many physical altercations including the end of the relationship. I won’t even get into that here. I thought surely this guy would never have the balls to even look at me let alone speak to me.

        WRONG

        I get home from work one day 4 months later and there he is on my answering machine congratulating me on my promotion and how proud he was of me. WTF?

        Then a hoover right before I married then again after a death in my family thenb again 13 years later

        You ladies that are new to Narcissism really have not yet seen what they are capable of. That part is just beginning

        1. sarabella says:

          I am not new to it. I grew up with it. Not all narcisssists resort to physical violence. I am pretty sure HG said he stops at that, really risky criminal activities, because if he landed in jail, he wouldn’t be able to continue his fuel foraging. He also said that he can experience wounding and it can lead to him blackening a victim for some time and there is no hover risks unail it fades. He really needs to write more about Super Nova dynamics.

          I remarked a few times to myself that had the narc and I been closer, we would have hurt each other physically. The battles were that intense. I always knew that even as intense and they were, we were not donr with each other. Until I said finally I am just done. That’s not a good life or love.

    3. Lori says:

      HG I appreciate your work. I should be a damn pro at this since I have had it happen multiple times, but being a Codependent I will continually be susceptible. Even cognitively knowing all I know, it still a real struggle for me. If I am honest I crave the challenge of these people

      I see repeatedly here people saying oh he won’t hoover I know he won’t and I even think it sometimes too with the last one because he says he never goes back BUT THEY DO. It ended in the most horrific way with my first Narc Mr. Mid Ranger. With any other normal that would have been the end without question? but nope 4 months later there he was again then fast forward 13 years and with that kind of lapse in time, he was able to re idealize me all over again. He was completely infatuated all over again.

      Struggling a bit today but I know this person isn’t good for me and contact always ends in pain. ALWAYS

      1. Insatiable Learner says:

        Hi Lori, my first encounter with a narc (very brief) was 5 years ago. No hoover. The most recent narc. No Hoover in 7 months. Then I reached out. Now it has again been almost 7 months. No Hoover. I will not reach out. Neither will he. So second narc, no hoover. They do not always hoover! Why am I so sure? Please see above. Experientia est optima magistra!

        1. Julie says:

          Insatiable learner… never say never! Mine went about 10 years! HG himself ,the grand master has even stated he has hoovered after 12 years…never underestimate them. Mine would STILL be hoovering had I not had a no contact in place by our employer. You are never safe.

        2. NarcAngel says:

          Insatiable Learner

          I have wondered this about many commenters but perhaps you can answer this question honestly for me:

          Why is it so important for you to proclaim, and for us believe, that you will never be hoovered? Is it solely to disprove HGs claim that you are always at risk for one? He is the subject matter expert here and your name is Insatiable Learner but it appears that you do not accept the lesson given, and thats fine, as you do not have to accept everything offered, but this he offers for our own protection. To arm us with the knowledge that it is LIKELY, and to be prepared in the LIKELY event that it happens, so that we are not caught flat-footed and respond in a way that causes us further grief and involvement. It is not a challenge but rather a case of forewarned is forearmed. Unless of course you are looking for assurance repeatedly that you will be hoovered – then it makes complete sense why you would do so, and that is exactly how it appears, because if you really believed it there would be no need to keep declaring it. It would be like someone warning: that dog will bite you, and you repeatedly saying no he wont. It doesnt matter what either believes – its ultimately up to the dog, but I sure appreciate the warning.

      2. Insatiable Learner says:

        Hi Julie, I appreciate the word of caution. If one of them hoovered 10 years later, I would go, “Excuse me. Do I know you”? Well, chances are I would just ignore. I mean come on, after 10 years?

        1. Julie says:

          Yep…10.

        2. sarabella says:

          That’s how I am now. And I did this with someone once, too. It was a gross purely sexual situation and eventually, I broke away. Moved on. 2 years later, he blew me away sending me an email. Said he wanted to apologize. I said I wasn’t interested in hearing it. I made peace, moved on. He was angry that I wouldn’t meet with him to apologize. I saw him a few times as we worked in the same large organization but not the same departments. I just looked at him and wondered, “What ever did I see in you you little weak rat?” And that was that… no thanks…

          If this narc should ever reach out, and based on what the guy did above, I told this last narc, do not even THINK of emailing me an apology in a while for what you did to me again, but if he should think of doing it now, I would be “Huh? Who is this rat that came out of the sewer?” in my head. I would not reply. I am really sorry he wasn’t who I wanted him to be… so badly to be sorrry for what he did to the 14 year old girl, but now I know why he did it then, why he did it again and why he would again. I never got over it, won’t ever completely, but I got through it, and I am on with my life at last. The young girl in me will always want to love him. Its just up to me to keep her in check and console her and keep him away from my life forever.

          1. Julie says:

            Sarabella… well said. Stay away. As I like to say “what dosent kill me makes me stronger”. Its funny cuz I think the same wAy, “wtffff did I ever see in that asshole” . I used to be so meek and now Im a force to be recokened with. Idk if thats good or bad but I got tired of narcs walking all over me lol

      3. Lori says:

        It is extremely rare that they do not. 7 months Is nothing in their world. 5 years is nothing in their world. I was hooverec 13 years later.

        I realize some of y’all won’t believe it but is very rare they don’t especially if you were ipps or an ipss that they were very taken with i e major fuel or seen as a prize by others.

        I remember the shrink saying Lori I would bet my practice this guy shows back up. I said oh no he’s engaged to someone else now. Shrink: “he’s not getting married Lori. He said that to hurt you” me: oh no he really is. Shrink : “there will be no marriage and this guy will come back” Guess what there was no wedding and he did come back briefly

        Narc 1 told my friend some 25 years ago “She’s mine and I will come back for her when I’m ready” and he did. These hoovers have happened over 25 years

        13 YEARS BETWEEN HOOVERS AND 25 YEARS OF HOOVERING. THESE PEOPLE ARE UNBELIEVABLE

      4. Edie says:

        Mine has been on and off for 30 years and the hoover that got me was after a 9 year time lapse. He was married. I was married. Its a horrible story and I had been mentally and emotionally broken until about a week ago. PS. The discard was i June. My replacement started in April (of course I didnt know) and the discard was entirely my fault or so I believed until a last piece of the puzzle was introduced and I realized and saw (thankfully to God) the person he truly is. Anyway… long story longer. He hoovered two weeks ago and I am standing strong. I honestly cant see how he can get to me because he is blocked on everything AND his friends! Hopefully this does it. My whole point was and I completely got off track (adult a.d.d.) the song Jar of Hearts really helps me when I am struggling. She must be talking about a narc because she nails it. Anyway I thought I would just pass on the information. These are the lyrics just fyi.

        I know I can’t take one more step towards you
        ‘Cause all that’s waiting is regret
        Don’t you know I’m not your ghost anymore
        You lost the love I loved the most

        I learned to live, half alive
        And now you want me one more time

        Who do you think you are?
        Runnin’ ’round leaving scars
        Collecting your jar of hearts
        And tearing love apart
        You’re gonna catch a cold
        From the ice inside your soul
        So don’t come back for me
        Who do you think you are?

        I hear you’re asking all around
        If I am anywhere to be found
        But I have grown too strong
        To ever fall back in your arms

        I’ve learned to live, half alive
        And now you want me one more time

        Who do you think you are?
        Runnin’ ’round leaving scars
        Collecting your jar of hearts
        And tearing love apart
        You’re gonna catch a cold
        From the ice inside your soul
        So don’t come back for me
        Who do you think you are?

        It took so long just to feel alright
        Remember how to put back the light in my eyes
        I wish I had missed the first time that we kissed
        ‘Cause you broke all your promises
        And now you’re back
        You don’t get to get me back

        Who do you think you are?
        Runnin’ ’round leaving scars
        Collecting your jar of hearts
        And tearing love apart
        You’re gonna catch a cold
        From the ice inside your soul
        Don’t come back for me
        Don’t come back at all

        Who do you think you are?
        Runnin’ ’round leaving scars
        Collecting your jar of hearts
        Tearing love apart
        You’re gonna catch a cold
        From the ice inside your soul
        Don’t come back for me
        Don’t come back at all

        Who do you think you are?
        Who do you think you are?
        Who do you think you are?

      5. sarabella says:

        I was 14 first time around. He then played his games with me 3.5 decades later. Much later than HG’s 12 years. But he didn’t actually hoover me. I was there, among 60 other mutual childhood friends. All FB’s fault that we reconnected. I then met some of the Hoover criteria. Though he claimed to have looked for me all that time, you know, old soul friends and lover (gag), he sometimes reached out once we reconnected all that time later, but he still never put any energy into bridging some relationship with me, even a narc fueled one. It wasn’t until I texted him one day, wondering… And then it begane, the insanity and hell. But he never actively put energy into ‘coming after me’ until I texted him. So this is why I say he won’t ever hoover me. He actually doesn’t have the pattern of it with me. But IF, IF, I were to text him, he absolutely WOULD reply. I knew it yesterday. That is what I felt. But he himself, will not ever come after me without some prompting by me. He has painted me much too black, on too many levels, a nice deep ivory black, for he to have any interest in hoovering me.

      6. Lori says:

        I think if we are all honest we Initially want the hoover because we see it as validation by someone who invalidated us but that’s not what it is. It’s a parasite wanting its next meal.

        I think saying he will never hoover for many is a way of coping with the pain that they haven’t. They make you feel as though you didn’t exist but you have to realize that’s their pain that they are having you wear for them. These people are children who felt they never existed and felt so much shame that they built a construct to never feel it again. They create situations whereby someone else will experience the shame for them

        1. sarabella says:

          yes, he and I both had something for us to be deeply shamed for by society. He hinted at something about his problems once, before I found out what it was. It does make total sense. He knew I felt shame and he felt it in his own life, and so we just traded back and forth at some point. Who gets to hold that bag of shame? I honestly don’t think I ever wanted to be hoovered. I always felt it was in my power to stop my attacks and let him back in. He tried to sweet talk me on something once. He left me a voicemail once, seemed to genuinely want me to stay and be his friend. I wanted to hear it. I wanted him back in my life. I wanted him, not physically and for real as we won’t ever see each other again, but I wanted the online him back again. But I had a choice in that moment. And I just couldn’t. I couldn’t let down my attack. I couldn’t trust and knew I could never trust what he made me feel and how I felt ever again. He had begged me to trust him and failed me again. Lesson was learned.

  7. W says:

    Very a propos. After months of serenity, I’d forgotten what this toxicity and estrangement from Self feels,like.

    Two hoovers in 24 hours. Lol.
    Ive informed both that NC is reinstated .

    I guess I’ll feel ok again a couple of days.

    And it was really an excellent lesson! How awesome I was feeling, compared to how sick I felt after breaking NC when they hoovered.

    It’s amazing how we detox! Just deciding I’m done, implementing GOSO, going full NC….it was only a few weeks before I felt more whole and serene and happy than I had in YEARS.
    Then a quick malign dose from one and a benign dose from the other, and I actually feel physically ill!

    Crazzzzzy. Wtf ARE these guys?

    1. Edie says:

      I honestly feel like its an addiction of sorts. Does that seem possible? Yesterday I was on top of the world and tonight Im on this site so I dont break my NC. He hoovered two weeks ago because I showed strength after 9 months. He of course didnt contact me because the last stupi thing I said to him last August was ‘i’ll always love you’. This people arent people. They are monsters. Who does this? They mentally and emotionally rape us and are completely able to sleep at night. Stay strong you arent alone!

  8. Julie says:

    When i started working where I work is when I met my narc. He was married at the time and I got to know him and he asked me over one day to watch a movie. I was young & naieve and thought we were just friends. NOT. He was on me like white on rice and I told him I had to go and I left. After that he didnt talk to me for about 10 years! Then one morning I was driving to work and he pulled up beside me and just started waving and beeping his horn. Then when I got to work he was messaging me from his squad car and bombarding me with conversation. Then the rest is history. I often think how strange it was how he had just pulled up beside me like that and if it was planned. Knowing what I know now it really makes me wonder now…

    HG… would this be a “grand hoover”? Your thoughts if you can?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      No, these are follow up hoovers.

      1. Edie says:

        Do you have a list of what all of the terms mean HG? Also can I download ur books from Amazon?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          See Grimoire of Narcissism. Yes, you can.

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