You spend your time searching. Searching for the one who will fulfil that desire of complete happiness, the one who will be your match, the one who accords with being the soulmate, the one who completes you, the ying to your yang, the one who makes everything alright again. The one who will wipe away those tears of sadness and bring to you the tears of joy and elation. The one who will always be there, come hell or high water. The one who creates that world that you have always craved. The one who chases away the shadows and keeps the wolf from the door. The one who loves you for what you are and does not seek to change you. You search for the one who wants to be with you but will not complain when there is enforced absence. The one who never forgets the important milestones in your lives but never remembers the times when matters do not quite go to plan. The one who will ensure your memories live on in the raising of others. The one who will not turn from you but will lift you up and rely on you also. The one who will take your hand and hold it tight no matter what storms come your way. The one who wakes with you and smiles that special smile. The one who lays their lips against yours as the day ends and night engulfs the land. The one who knows you inside out and cherishes everything you have to offer the world. The one who understands you and wants to understand you. The one who embraces your flaws and imperfections and does not use them against you. The one who looks into your eyes and desires what they see there. The one who will not judge you, will not hold your errors against you but who will hold you as the world may collapse around you and the one who will say your name with their dying breath.

You spend your time searching for a sign. An indicator that will give you the answers. Something on which you can hang hope, that imposter, in order to solve the mystery that you are now faced with. Something that will enable you to unravel the puzzle that has emerged every day and has your mind twisted, thoughts stretched and contorted. You are searching for the truth, your slavish devotion to such a concept is honourable indeed and you must find that truth and hold it high for all to see. You must locate it and raise it up above to ensure that everybody knows of it. You must find the solution, you must identify the panacea that shall cure all these ills, for you are a fixer, a solver, a healer. You search and search for explanation, enlightenment and elucidation. You are hunting high and low for the reason to something which seems unfathomable. Your search will lead you into dead ends, frustrating cul-de-sacs and along treacherous and perilous routes where your bewilderment is only heightened. Your search for clarity amongst the confusion appears to be never-ending. You may be blessed with an indefatigable spirit which enables you to carry way beyond the endurance of others as this search continues. There are clues, but they dance away from you like an elusive will o the wisp, leaving you blundering after it, as you are led further into the quagmire of disturbing befuddlement.

You search for the antidote to the pain that engulfs you each and every day. Some salve to soothe your fevered brow, a medicine that will numb the pain and bring the cure. You search for an end to the hurt. An end to the misery that sweeps about you, its chains heavy and rusting, making you stoop and cutting you to the core. Dragging you down with its hatred, the horror and the malevolence so you fall to your knees. You crawl across the barren land, hands pricked from the thorns that grow across your path as wearied and beaten down you drive yourself on searching for a way out. You sob with frustration as your draining journey reveals that you have gone around in a circle and you stare with disbelieving eyes at your own handprints in the dust, realisation crashing into you that your endeavours have all been for naught. You search for the Holy Grail that will grant you release from this torture, the answer to every question which gnaws at your terrified mind, the oil that will calm the troubled waters allowing your passage across the emotional sea to become easier allowing you to reach the promised land. You search for the key which will unlock the huge gate that looms over you, the opening of the portal that will enable you to escape this horror which surrounds you and has become woven into the tapestry of your every day. You search and search, fooled by the charlatans that offer respite only to whisk it away at the last moment, wrenching it from your grasp. You search and search for a way out of the nightmare, idiots and clowns suggesting they have the route mapped out for you, but they know little or nothing, well-intentioned or otherwise they are not the ones who will be able to end your search. You search and search for the final destination that will finally grant you release. There are options which may bring this horror show to an end, the dropping of the final curtain but whilst you contemplate that, deep within you there is that will to overcome what torments you and to avoid failing and seeking that alternative exit. That way is not for you. You must conclude your search. You must achieve it and as that truth seeker your search continues. You wish to reach the end and it is an end which gives you the absolute truth, the clearest of answers which thus enables you to seize the power to create that which serves your needs once again. The answers that will sweep aside the darkness and enable you to step into the light once more, a champion of perseverance and a titan of determination.

So, day after day after day, you search.

Your search ends here.

The Holy Grail teaches you deliverance over ruin.

78 thoughts on “Searching

  1. Ugotit says:

    Following for later

  2. echo says:

    I don’t see this site as the Holy Grail. I see it more as the tome of knowledge that leads me to it. Using that knowledge, I can learn to be my own Holy Grail. Bring the locus of control back to myself rather than searching for it in others.

  3. Michelle says:

    When I think of “Holy Grail”…. I just think of Monty Python…
    That kinda fits also in a funny kinda way!

    1. abrokenwing says:

      …and ‘ it’s just a flesh wound ‘ ! 😁

    2. NarcMagnet says:


  4. Margaret Robertson says:

    The Quest has ended. The knowledge so valiantly fought for has been obtained, only to realize the Grail cannot heal this disorder. There is no cure. You cannot be fixed. In truth, I am not your messiah. I cannot save you and refuse to be crucified for your sake. I leave you to your evil intent, grateful for the full armor of discernment….you no longer have the ability to do harm. I am free to search out virtue and all that is noble and beautiful. Where I go you cannot follow… lack goodness, righteousness and the moral excellence required to complete the journey. I leave you mired in the blackness of your own soul.

  5. LYNN says:

    Thank you HG we need to be smashed in the head with this and you do it so exquisitely. I commend you for your insight to help us to change our direction, that’s hard in itself, but the hardest is the healing as we walk that new direction, can you offer a program for that??
    Do you recognise a certain look from experienced victims that you try your tricks on, do you see that look in their eyes that they know what you are? does that make you retreat or take on the challenge?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Very few really recognise what they are dealing. I do not retreat.

      1. Delmara says:

        I feel like that is a chillingly true statement, that very few really recognize what they are dealing with.

        In this piece you have laid for us a challenge, but I don’t think it is the one that most people are seeing. I know for sure that I shouldn’t even be typing this. Because your challenge here, maybe your most cruel joke to yourself (most likely at our collective, in your mind, toaster-oven expense) is to stretch us and our empathy to be able to read this as much (in as much as is it possible for us) from your perspective, rather than ours which would want to see you as truly writing this to help us.

        And then if we pay attention to your language and to your likely intent that you’ve made explicit. You like to write. You’re not particularly interested, I am sure in helping what you view as us lesser appliances. But you probably do enjoy taking pride in describing the elaborate ways that you dupe us. And you probably enjoy the fact that at first reading, most of us are going to want to put our perspective into your motives. That we will color your barren emotional wasteland desert (and I am truly sorry that you are missing the emotions that truly make life worth beautiful and worth living!) with our landscapes. But you have a different agenda. And if you think about the language you use, your motives, and think about it from a perspective from someone who cannot feel and who views us as interchangable tools whose only purpose is to be manipulated and discarded. This piece becomes creepy at best, and downright terrifying at worst. If you know how to read from a literary perspective. If you know how to look for multiple meanings.

        “the will to overcome what torments you so you can keep going, but that way is not for you.”

        “The final(!) destination(!) that will grant you release”

        “The end, that will grant you absolute truth”

        “The Holy Grail, that will teach you deliverance over ruin”

        I realize I cannot be in your head, to know for sure what you meant. But you’ve made it clear that our health, healing, and well-being for our own sake for our own lives is NOT your priority. Ergo, this is symbol of your information given bringing us everlasting deliverance from you and all of those like you is comforting I am sure, but only there, likely, as a placeholder and something you can point to as “positive” as opposed to your primary meaning or intent with this piece.

        In its most mild creepy interpretation if we embrace the most terrifying and scary form of the empathy we are given, to try and feel and perceive as you would, then the deliverance you suggest would likely be the short and awful mirage of the idealization stage, since our search for truth and relationship would momentarily seem to be over (and this time, it really will work from your perspective, right? and your well-meaning appliances–do you have any idea how disgusting it feels to write that and write about us empaths like that–won’t let you down).

        In its scariest form, and much of the language you use (final ends, deliverance, release, strength to stand up and face the things but that way is not for you) seems geared towards symbolic references to death (which given the research on narcissists and psychopaths is interesting because generally symbolic/abstract stuff is not a strong suit, but there must be exceptions, right greater narc?). Either of the soul, or I’m sure I don’t have to elaborate the other possible meanings there that given your language I cannot but think that you are aware of and fully intended, that you probably had fun including knowing most would choose to remain blind or not want to see from your perspective.

        But don’t think for a second, that if we learn to channel anger appropriately, to have boundaries, and to trust carefully as trust is earned, and to hear your warnings, and to listen and run. Don’t think for a second that you destroy our empathy or make us not empaths.

        We still are, we are just healthy empaths. In fact, the way through is the very thing that you think makes us so delicious as targets, but also so weak. But it is truly our strength. If we can embrace our empathy and channel it clearly and without more fear than is due to empathize even from your bleak broken-soul perspective to try and see you clearly. To be in tune enough with our feelings and our bodies and to act on what our feelings and intuitions tell us and be aware in the moment, and keep ourselves from idealizing you.

        You will not have destroyed us. You will not have killed our empathy. We will still be empaths. We just won’t be empaths in your presence. Our light will still shine for those who need it, and who will be able to truly return the love and care that we give.

        Our “weakness” that draws you to us, is our greatest strength. But only if we can face the fear in expanding that empathy to the most inhuman and soulless, and ONLY if we can learn to extend that strength of empathy to ourselves also, so that we heed the warnings of intuition, of our feelings, and those subtle ways from the beginning that your types put us off balance to test us.

        I’ve written way more than I should (as in, a single word). But empathy, healing, understanding, healthy anger when appropriate, and all of these tempered with wisdom will help us see clearly. Will help us steer clear.

      2. Delmara says:

        Also quick p.s. to that longer post, when I said that about normals and empaths, let me be clear that one is not better than the other. Normals (as you call them, where as I tend to think of them by their individual gifts and astonishingly their actual names!) have their own set of gifts which are just as meaningful and contributions to their communities that are every bit as needed and valued as those that we empaths bring!

      3. Delmara says:

        One last p.s. to edit: I realized that I left out elite when I referred to your title. That slip was not intentional and no insult was meant. Whatever your motives are or are not, you do choose to arm us with information and I do appreciate it!

        And just to throw another one out there, given the Tudor…Highness Greater (Elite!) Tudor?

  6. o,,, says:

    HG and all,
    Good read.
    thank you.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

  7. Meredith Hudson says:

    Nice! “Your search ends here”-on so many levels!

  8. EmP says:

    My search did end here. Finally it all made sense.

    Thanks HG.

  9. Findinglife11 says:

    So true. Very well written and described. Almost like you have empathy. I don’t know how you do it sometimes. 🙂 O holy Grail. 🙂

  10. MB says:

    Holy Grail is most certainly the most apt longhand for HG. His Greatness works well also. Hg as in the periodic table is a beautiful metaphor. I do not like Hurt God even a little bit!

    1. Quasi says:

      MB – In my mind I thought HG potentially stood for Higher Grade.
      Or Higher Greater
      Producing a Higher addiction rate !
      I am quite often wrong – Holy Grail rocks it too..

      1. MB says:

        C’mon Quasi! It could only be “Highest Grade” cause he’s the best!

        You’ve discovered another one. He said it stood for different things, but started out as His Greatness I saw on an old post.

      2. Caroline says:

        Higher Grade, lol…That is so adorable, Quasi. Like a Higher Grade than us? Then the rest of the narcissists? Then the rest of the eggs at the grocery store??

        Thank you for making me smile real BIG. 🙂

      3. Quasi says:

        Hi Caroline, glad to entertain lol… you also have me in stitches a lot with your awesome comments…

        I as probably everyone else, has thought what HG could stand for, higher grade or higher greater were my initial ideas when putting myself in a narcissists perspective. Trying to look at it through the potential lens of a narcissist, with omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence.
        I also do believe there is an addictive quality to the narcissist, and clearly the greater the narcissist, the greater chance of addiction.

        Do I think that narcissists are higher / greater then empaths ? No I do not.

        Do I mind that narcissists think they are better / superior to others? Not really, because being superior to others is not a motivator for me as an individual. So I care not about this point of view.

        I do not aspire to be above other people, or better then other people. I would not gain anything from this perspective. I would not feel power, I do not need to feel power over others.
        I can feel good in myself without this, I do not need to put others down and hurt them to make myself feel better.

        I can feel good in myself just knowing who I am and my value to myself and the people closest to me, the people I value the most.

        I guess this is my view of the fundamental difference between empaths and narcissists.
        What is the aim? What is the motive? What is the intent ?

        Within our interpersonal relationships we can want similar things, but our aim, our motive and our intent is at the opposite ends of the scale/ they are a polar opposite.

        It does not matter to me if someone thinks that they are superior to me, because that is what they think! this does not translate to how I view myself.

        I do not see myself as less of a person because the man I was entangled with viewed me as nothing, or as inferior.

        My emotional mind/ thinking can cause self doubt at times, about my appearance, about how I present myself, about my personality, am I too nice? Do I say sorry too much? Do i talk too much? Did they understand me?
        But this is intrinsically linked to my core beliefs and historical wounds, and not the narcissist, he just caused me to look at them again.
        But still under it all the core is good, and nothing can take that away from me. It is resolutely so, I have no creature inside, I have a light.

        Other people can see me as they will… I no longer give a ……

        1. Caroline says:


          I understand exactly what you’re saying. It’s healthy that you self-reflect/know yourself so well. Yes, narcissists will certainly project superiority — it’s nothing personal and doesn’t even need to affect us — they’re just being the best narcissists they can be, lol.

          I don’t think anyone is superior to anyone. We all have our own gifts/strengths…same goes for looks. Some will have striking blue eyes — others, warm, brown, puppy dog eyes, etc. It makes life interesting. As for intelligence, every single human being knows at least one thing someone else does not. This is my perspective.

          I don’t compare myself to other people, because I’ve just never seen any good reason to~I feel like you should be at peace (content) with your own specialness — and change the things you don’t like about yourself. I also think self-talk is really important, as in being positive and loving with what you tell yourself. I’m nice to myself! I know, what a funny thing to say, but I do think that’s important. The only negative tape that I’ve run in my head has been related to guilt, but I’m catching that a lot more since being on this site.

          My ex-BF’s superiority would come to the fore at weird times… he didn’t really direct it at me, but that actually made it worse, because I’m not just going to sit there while he (for instance) berates a waiter. So I would set him up — turn the tables on him… and I could get quite bratty. I’d give a recent (Hoover) example, but HG’s reading this, and I know he’ll be thinking: “Caroline, no wonder you’ve enraged your ex and he’s now seeking massive revenge on you. Not only did you reject him, but you insulted him on top of it. You can’t talk to a narcissist like that.”

          Except I kinda can… so I sorta do. Lol Okay…I’ll put it on my list of things I need to change about myself (self-control)… for next year.

      4. Quasi says:

        In my opinion Caroline you are completely on point… be your own wonderful self, only look to change the things for you and who you want to be! The joy of this is that we can evolve and change because we can see the parts of ourselves that need some attention, and act upon this !
        I really rather like your perspective, and approach. Your rocking it! I’m sure I will continue to enjoy reading your coments and the good natured humour that you express. Thank you Caroline.

        1. Caroline says:

          Awwww, SO SWEET. Thank you, for being so giving, Quasi.:-)

          Doesn’t HG’s hair look especially nice today? (Ahem…so he knows we’re still talking about him – that narcissism thing)…

          Oh..wait. Forget I mentioned his hair. We don’t want to re-live the HG hair dialog again…oh gawd no! Lol

      5. Quasi says:

        Hey Caroline,

        You are so funny I love it!

        I have not really contemplated HG’s hair, and I don’t think I was reading the blog when there was a hair dialogue. Or I just missed that.
        The thing I have found myself drawn to is the belief that he is older then me. I’m in my late 30’s and I have always pictured HG as being 53-54, ( apologies to the moderator if I have aged you!! ) and for some reason I really like the idea of that. It’s funny how the mind works, but I like the idea of him being older, it may be a dominance thing or an authoritarian thing… but hey, the strange workings of the mind.

        I don’t think we have to worry too much about making sure we talk about HG, he is probably not bothered either way.
        I’m not too sure HG is too fussed about praise or admiration from me individually.
        I can imagine it’s like looking into a pot of hundreds and thousands sprinkles and trying to pick out one, when we are all the same. Tertiary and only written word.

        I think I may have just called myself a sprinkle! Lol

        Anyway, I really do rather like banter with you Caroline, you make me smile..

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Huh, you have aged me!

          1. Caroline-the-playful says:

            I think you’re 28, HG. I think you’ll be 28 next year too!

            *Now* will you tell which empath I am??


        2. Caroline says:

          🙂 Agree~he’s a good sport… though I try to watch my inner tease brat…a bit.;-)

        3. MB says:

          My guess when I first heard him was 52, so I’m right there with you from the sound of his voice. But from reading and the hints dropped here and there, it’s more like 43 since he hasn’t had his birthday yet this year when he will be 44. But he won’t tell, it’s part of his mysterious allure.

          You’re are a perfect little sprinkle!

      6. Quasi says:

        Sorry boss! I’m sure your much younger. I just liked the idea of you at that age …. I will have to Wait a while for that imagery to be true I guess ..

      7. Quasi says:

        Thanks MB,

        It was more then the voice, i was also guesstimating with reference to certain things he said on Q&A’s and interviews. The main one I based it on was an answer regarding the internet and evolving technologies which aided the scope / net for the narcissist.

        To be honest my maths is rubbish so I’m sure I’m way out. Hey 10 years isn’t too bad!!! Lol.

        I have a feeling I may not be a perfect tertiary sprinkle, but a painted black little sprinkle, clearly recognisable in the pot of sprinkles …. the one who has aged him 10 years lol….. oh dear I may have some grovelling to do…. although another perspective could be that I’m going to like HG, and read his works for another 10 plus years at least…. looking at the positive! And from the imagery HG is going to look very good in 10 years too… wow grovelling is tough … I’m spent ..

      8. Quasi says:

        Hi MB,

        I have recalculated, I was definitely way off… but I’m still coming up with a slightly higher number of 46!
        I think I’m just going to go with your advise on age, you have read so much more then I have, and have been interacting on the blog for longer also..

        It’s a strange thing trying to build an image of someone I have not met and will not ever meet. But also someone who I have shared so much information about myself with. I guess I wanted to humanise and put a picture to the person. It was just my imagery of him, and it was a very positive one, that I like very much so.

        I do not suppose it really matters anyway, I just liked to think he was older then me, regardless of how much older he actually is.

        It has been an illuminating experience joining the blog, I have quite literally shared everything about me, my situation and some of the weirdest workings of my mind. But it has helped me so much to do this and understand myself better in the process. I’m so happy that I started to comment on the blog, I have found it incredibly healing, and have loved interacting with all the bloggers, amazing empaths!

        Thank you for being so kind MB, you have been so lovely to me, and I really have found you to be a wonderful and comforting support. X

      9. Catherine Parr R says:

        My guess is that Mr. Tudor is between 45 and 49 years old. If I had to narrow the numbers down I’d say 46/47. In case I am wrong and he hit 50 already then it was last year that he did so.


        1. HG Tudor says:

          The cheek.

          1. Windstorm says:

            Ha, ha! You said once that I’m older than Matrinarc. That lets out 50. She’d have been only 10!

    2. Chihuahuamum says:

      HG is definitely between the ages of 47-50 closer to 50. Depeche mode and duran duran are mentioned. One girlfriend was really into duran duran “years ago” so thats about 47-50. Im guessing at 48 years old 😁

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Behave yourself!

      2. EmP says:

        I say early 40s

      3. MB says:

        He wrote that he was “an eighties baby” which is what throws me off the most. (Maybe he is talking about his teenage years?) He likes us guessing and has said as much. It’s a fun game for me too. The mystery just adds to his allure.

      4. Insatiable Learner says:

        Is this true, HG? I hope so. How hot! I have always had a thing for older men. 🙂

      5. Catherine Parr R says:

        The two bands are familiar to me in name only from my older cousins. That data was not enough to factor in and I used other ways to guess. Was I hot or cold in my age estimation?


      6. Chihuahuamum says:

        Bingo 🤣

      7. NarcMagnet says:

        If I may, I believe he will be 35 (or is it 36?) this year. On September 9th if I do remember correctly….

        1. Clarece says:

          I say 49 and still fine.
          With his number of girlfriends in adulthood post University, 2 fiances and a marriage lasting 4 years following a divorce to go through (that has been written about here for us to know);
          His time to devote to writing his books, this blog and perform audio consults, showing professionally he is at a level where he can carve out the time and is not someone still establishing himself as many 30 year olds still are in this day;
          His timeline of his younger sister’s relationship with her marriage and then ultimate divorce from a narcissist he describes in “Chained” which can be different but it still covers a span of at least 10 years there;
          Average relationships span about 18 months to two years;
          He was in therapy for about 2 years prior to the blog starting;

          I just don’t believe all that above can be packed into someone being 35 years old.

  11. Lori says:

    But the deliverance only comes to the extent that one accepts that the other person is a narcissist and is incurable which is really really tough for the Codependent “fixer” which is exactly why a Narcs victim of choice is the Codependent however it can be done

    1. Caroline says:


      This aspect is interesting to me, re: what you say about co-dependents. It’s made me reflect.

      I’m the opposite. I have no problem accepting that someone is a narcissist when the evidence is there…and there’s no part of me that is tempted to try to “fix” a narcissist — I don’t think I can. I do have a problem with feeling I can make them feel better, however… just not fix anything.

      Just curious — did you grow up trying to fix problems (between people/about people) within your household? I ask because I grew up feeling it was my job to make everyone feel better (in a comforting/inspirational/encourager way)…I can’t say anyone in my family put that on me. I just always felt inclined to do it.

      1. Lori says:

        I did not come from a home where there was any substance abuse of abuse of any kind but somewhere I learned that if you fixed things you were valuable. I think that may have come from my Mom who was always that’s great honey that you are number BUT now you have to stay there. I don’t think my Mom meant harm by those comments but simply that’s behavior she learned. Kids don’t come with instruction manuals what harms one may not harm another

        Making them want to feel better is people pleasing fixing type behavior. If it’s in one instance then you likely aren’t Codepebdent but if you see a pattern in your life you likely are. If you continually attract Narcs you could be as well. Codependency is a pattern of behavior

        1. Caroline says:

          I only got entangled with one narcissist, at an early age… but he found me to be more of a challenge than he anticipated. I’m very independent-minded. I like to soothe/calm/inspire people, and I have a high motivation to look out for underdogs and children…but I’m not overly concerned about what other people think — I’m much more focused on if I’m doing the right thing(s). I take care as much as I can of what/how I say things because I want to, as my own standard of sensitivity…I don’t want to unnecessarily hurt anyone’s feelings… but I won’t skirt issues to placate anyone.

          Thanks for sharing~Interesting!

      2. Lori says:

        There’s a difference between cognitively knowing someone is a narcissist and truly accepting they are an incurable Narcissist. People who continue to interact fix or attempt to soothe them have not fully accepted what they are. Once you have truly accepted what they are you have no more desire to do that as you know it is pointless and have installed boundaries to protect yourself from their abuse. If you have not done that you are still holding on to hope. We have all done it and they bank on your hopefulness but it is when you do what is counterintuitive and abandon all hope is when you become free

        If there’s one thing I’ve learned in dealing with Narcs it’s to do what it counter intuitive and you will find freedom and victory in it but it is hard to do and they know this. That’s is why they chose you

        1. Caroline says:

          Oh, sorry…I didn’t know if you were talking to me. No, I dumped my ex-BF narc a long time ago. He came back to Hoover me last year, during his divorce, and I’m NC. I’m certainly not soothing him, believe me, lol. He’s in revenge mode with me because I wouldn’t see him again, and I’m fairly scared of him, because of the way he’s reacted. I was just talking about my original family…I always tried to make them feel better when they were down or upset with each other. I’m just trying to reflect on the type of empath I am… just self-reflecting on that aspect.

      3. Clarece says:

        I was the family “peacemaker”. Layer in Catholic guilt conditioning where you’re always confessing for sinning for something. There’s one recipie for life long co-dependent. Lol
        With other resources I’ve read, I know I have co-dependent tendencies. I’ve just never got that caught up in what am. I was a victim. Now I’m a survivor.

        1. Caroline says:

          Hi, Clarece~guilt has been my Achilles Heel, and I’m not even Catholic. But I’m Lutheran, so close enough. 😉 This last Hoovering from him has really helped any leftover unwarranted guilt. What the heck do I have to feel guilty for? He’s a maniac! I did my best in that relationship, a ways backs too. So, The End!

          1. Clarece says:

            Hi Caroline! I’m sorry for the late response. I just returned from a vacation. I read your comment while traveling but had limited time. Yes Lutheran, is very similar to Catholics except no praying to the Saints and no confession. So you get a break there not having to be absolved by a mediator to God. lol I’ve often thought as an adult why was I made to feel not worthy enough to pray to God directly about my “sins” but no, I had to have a priest hear them, absolve them and dole out a penance for them? It can create an atmosphere if you are growing up in a strict Catholic household, where you are constantly worried how others perceive you and if you are doing right by others to the point of putting them above yourself. Always fixing…and if you are not, you are being selfish if you are thinking of yourself first for a change.

          2. Caroline says:

            Thanks, Clarece~I hope you’re refreshed from your vacation.:-) I’m planning a big vacation for this fall. I can’t wait! Oh, and no worries, ever, on replying to me. I don’t even expect it.

            Thank you also, for your thoughts… yes, I would not have done very well with the Catholic faith. I always feel that the Big Guy is always willing and available to hear from me directly (not referring to HG, LOL!). There was no confessional, but there’s a lot of “I’M SORRY” within the Lutheran faith… kinda like you never feel you’re doing enough… just my experience.

            I love reading your comments when you defend HG… you’re like his big sister. I’m like his teasing little sister, but I feel I understand some aspects about him and have great empathy for him as well. I respect and appreciate all he has done, in establishing this site…I also fully understand that there’s a small group of you who have been here (at the onset) of the site. I know and appreciate that’s special!:-)

            I wish you much joy and peace, my empathic sister… which is kinda ironic, because it’s a rather Lutheran thing to say. 😉 XO!

          3. Clarece says:

            You deserve much peace and joy in your life too Caroline. Thank you for such kind words. I’m kind of in a slump today. My trip was awesome and now it’s just back to the boring work grind among other things, so that was really nice to hear.
            Glad my sentiments come through towards HG. I may not tell him enough I do hold him in high regard for all of his help. I think he knows though. ❤

          4. Caroline says:

            Aw, I understand. Just start planning your next vacation, Clarece… you can be in a gondola in Italy — or standing on gorgeous green hill in Ireland — in your mind. 😉

            I started my day off by stepping in poison oak (don’t ask!)~~so your day was likely much better, lol

      4. Lori says:

        Not to rag on Catholicism as I quite like it but I can see where Catholicism could produce codependency. Catholicism has shame intertwined in it and Codependency is shame based.

        My mother was a Catholic and I believe some of my codependency originated with her though o don’t believe her to be the sole cause. I think a number of factors came together that induced my codependency

      5. windstorm says:

        Your thinking sounds a lot like mine. I have no problem accepting that someone is a narcissist either and i never want to fix anyone. I have always so hated people trying to “fix” me that I could never try to do that to someone else. We all have the God-given right to be “wrong”, in my opinion. And I couldn’t count the number of times that how I choose to live my life seems wrong to someone else!

        I think that’s why I can accept narcissists and still interact with them, without harm to myself. I see them clearly, expect nothing from them and don’t try to change them. They’re just another potentially harmful part of the environment that one must be watchful around, like road hazards and coyotes.

        I do feel much pleasure from brightening people’s days, especially people I don’t know and may never see again. But like you said, I do it because I want to, not that I feel I should. Sort of like picking up litter on the sidewalk and throwing it away. It is a way for me to make the environment a little more pleasant for everyone.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          I think that is the key to being able to interact with narcissists. You have to accept that you cannot change them or feel the need to do so, and they especially dont want us to change lol, so it should be a win win. Their thinking however inevitably causes them to believe that we have changed when in reality it is only their attitude towards us and treatment of us that has.

          1. Windstorm says:

            I agree. And when they see that we accept them, but aren’t fooled by them, I think they back off on abusing us because they instinctively know that we’ll just walk away if they push us too hard. No fuel that way.

            But just to reinforce- that’s narcs we don’t think emotionally about. To have any kind of safe relationship with a narc you have to honestly not give a damn if they walk out of your life today and you never see/hear from them again.

            I sort of view my narcs like HG says they view us. They’re my narcs till they die no matter where they are on the planet. If they surface, then I’ll talk to them, go out to dinner, etc., but until then “eh.” Sort of like they’re on the shelf for me until they enter one of my spheres of influence. Lol!

          2. NarcAngel says:

            True. You bring up a good point that I failed to mention: That it cannot work in a romantic/intimate situation.

        2. Caroline says:

          Totally relate to what you’re saying here… and I really do get how you’ve made peace in your understanding of narcissism and your ability to work within that realm without it harming you~and wanting to be and being giving — with eyes wide open. You’re a gem. 🙂

          This has nothing to do with anything… but I was just thinking today how I’ve always dealt with men (really, anyone) when they seem upset/out of sorts…I give people space, and am just quiet — I don’t ask them 5 times what’s bothering them. It’s rare if I ask once…I figure people will tell me if/when they want to share, if it helps them to (plus, I hate to sound sexist, but I figure men don’t even know what’s bugging them right away anyhow)… Funny though, because I’m thinking that many times, my ex-BF probably wanted me to come traipsing after him, imploring him to tell me what was wrong whenever he acted out of sorts.

          I think I was just the wrong empath for him, in many ways! 😉

          1. Windstorm says:

            Ha, ha! That made me laugh! The mental image of a broody midranger sulking wanting you to chase after him asking what was wrong!

            I agree in that often both men and women don’t know for sure what’s wrong when they are irritated or upset. People so often lie to themselves and don’t want to admit to unpleasant truths.
            I usually will ask one time, then just be quiet and supportive. With men I often bring up another subject that I know they are interested in to take their mind off whatever’s bothering them. That usually works.
            My exhusband’s philosophy on problems is that if you ignore them long enough, they will go away. I know it sounds stupid, but it’s surprising how often it works!

          2. Caroline says:

            Wimdstorm~Hey, that’s my philosophy too! I’m ignoring my narcissist! I’ll let ya know if he finally goes away, lol

            Hmmm, I’m confused, because this narcissist does like that type of attention… but he’s also super smart and ticks off (descriptively) so much specifically of a Greater. And dang — he’s much scarier (vindictive) when not given what he wants than I could have thought.

            I’ll think of him as an UMR for now. A vengeful one.

          3. Windstorm says:

            Definitely stay away from the vengeful ones! I’ve been very fortunate to never get close to one of those. My exhusband is a greater, but he’s a cerebral and far too lazy to be actively vengeful unless you’re right there with him and it’s easy.
            He sort of thinks of us all like lab rats and he’s too far above us to bother with the effort of vengeance. 😄

            Be wary thinking if they go away that they’ll stay away. After I initially cut off my Moron in Munich, he didn’t hoover for about 35 years! Laughing at their absurdities and unemotional, brutal honesty has always been effective for me to stop unwanted hoovers. But then, again, I’ve never gotten entangled with a violent or vengeful one – thanks be to God! The only threatening lessers I’ve ever encountered were “disencentivized” by the men in my family.

          4. Caroline says:

            All wise counsel, Windstorm. We’re many hours apart, so that’s a plus…I have a feeling that he’s going to turn up again, but I’ve made some good (security-related) changes. I shouldn’t have told him off, after the last thing he did to me, but I was SO upset, and I’m kinda… um…spirited.(Wasn’t that a kind way to describe myself? Lol)

            But my anger is fuel. I know it’s true. So no matter what happens next, I shall say nothing.

      6. Chihuahuamum says:

        Hi lori…im from catholic religion but i dont take the teachings as set in stone. I cringe at some who are religious bc they can be narcissistic and it ruins the perception of those that believe. Its people that give religions out there a bad name.
        I do get what youre saying and i do agree that some of the teachings can set up people to be potential victims or scenerios of codependancy.

      7. Lori says:


        I gues I would ask why you would want to imteract with them. I can understand if they are that occasional acquaintance. Narcs are fun to be around if they are just acquaintances but anyone that gets at all close to them whether friend or intimate partner they are going to use and abuse. It’s what they do. I mean sometimes we have to cause they are a boss or a parent. If they are interacting with you, it’s because you are giving fuel otherwise they have no use for you.

        1. Windstorm says:

          I don’t mind giving positive fuel. I’m good at it and we all enjoy doing things we’re good at. I understand your question, though. If I met a new narc today, I would never try to start any type of relationship with him/her. I don’t need the hassle of any more. My narcs are all family or friends of over 40 years acquaintance.

          It would be impossible to eliminate the narcs from my extended family because all the non-narcs are either married to them or their children. Two of my own children are narcs. That’s just the family God gave me. Like all extended families, we tolerate and put up with each other. I put up with their dark narc humor and they put up with my weirdness.

          And there are benefits to me. The narcs I interact with most often are highly intelligent, well-educated people I enjoy talking to. My exhusband has been an important, constant presence in my life for 45 years this December. He’s the father of my children, the grandfather of my grandchildren, the only man I was ever intimate with. We actually enjoy each other’s company and conversation, and doing things together. Plus we have each been such an important fixture in each other’s lives for so long that we couldn’t really erase the other by this point. No he doesn’t love me or care about me like en empath would, but we are valuable to each other.

          You’re right that narcs will always occasionally hurt me, but I’ve learned how to keep them from hurting me badly or often. I have my own home and life in a separate county from any of them. When I choose to be with them and they try to draw negative fuel, I leave and return to my own oasis of peace and tranquillity. It did take years to teach them this, but they all know it now and respect my boundaries (since it’s in their own self-interest to keep my positive fuel).

          My narcs know my limits of what I will tolerate and not to go past them. I sometimes think of myself as a huge, self-refilling fuel tank with a half-broken pump. As long as they are careful, I’ll pump out endless fuel, but if they push too hard, the pump will break all the way and there will be no more fuel. My narcs are smart with highly motivated self-interest. They’re careful with the pump.

      8. Lilly says:

        I really liked your comment about interacting with the narcissist. What I could read from your comment it sounds like you possess self confidence and strong boundaries and that may be the key of interacting with the narcissist. Sometimes you can not go all the way NC, like in my case at the moment where I have to interact with my N boss, who is crossing some serious limits in he’s behaviour towards me. Also there are narcissist everywhere and you can not keep avoiding them, these people will not vanish from this planet just because we wish they would. Yes in some cases they will try to manipulate, provoke or cross your boundaries but as long you recognise this and don’t let it get to you, it is the best way to deal with them. Now that I am aware of these people I am too trying to stay true to myself but at the same time knowing when to put a halt to their behaviour towards me. I was never a fixer myself and don’t believe you can change other people, but you can certainly change some of the dynamic in your interaction with the narcissist and other manipulative people. Thank you for your comment, it really sounded empowering.

        1. Windstorm says:

          Glad I said something you found useful. You’re right, we can’t just avoid all the narcs because they’re everywhere. We just need to be sure we don’t try to have intimate relationships with any of them!

          As I’ve aged I’ve developed some boundaries. When I grew up and in my youth, I didn’t even know there was such a thing as personal boundaries. That’s definitely not something i was taught at home. It was a shock when I went to college to learn that boundaries existed. Lol!

          My best tactic to prevent narc abuse is probably avoidance. I can spot them quickly and then have as little interaction with them as possible and keep myself painted white to them when I can’t avoid them. This has always worked well with men narcs, but it’s not as effective with women. Women narcs tend to dislike me and the feeling is mutual. I think women narcs see me as a threat to them, where the men have enough confidence to see me as harmless.

          Good luck with your narc boss. Your comment about him worries me. He shouldn’t be crossing lines with you that you don’t want crossed. At least you have the law on your side. Make it clear to him when you are uncomfortable about something. Also both document and date everything he does that you feel is inappropriate and tell a trusted friend about it. If you know someone in law enforcement or the legal profession, I’d ask their opinion – just as a friend. I would also casually let other workers know that I kept this documentation and had consulted others about it. It will get back to him and if he has any sense, he should back off. Of course, he may not have any sense, but these steps should help protect you and provide you support. Secrecy is to the narcs advantage, not to yours.
          I’ll be thinking about you and praying for you. ❤️

      9. Lori says:


        Your kids? Wow that’s rough well I can certainly understand. Your kids are your kids no matter how toxic.

        Me? I like Narcs I find them charismatic and fun as long as they stay acquaintances. Beyond that, I’m not going to be their supply unless I absolutely have to. No matter how much positive fuel you give it’s never enough and they will crave the taste of your negative fuel. It’s just not worth it for me

        1. Windstorm says:

          I agree. There are lots of negatives in dealing with narcs, but it’s really all I know. I was talking to one of my narc friends who lives in NYC earlier today and she was horrified to learn that there are no fire hydrants out in my county. She said, “how does the fire department get the water to fight fires?” Easy answer – there’s no fire department either.

          She couldn’t wrap her mind around that. I told her, “all we have is one tanker truck at a building and if there’s a fire they call a list of volunteers who leave their regular jobs or homes, go pick up the tanker truck and do what they can with the water they bring with them.” She was horrified, but I’d never really thought about it. That’s just normal to me. You don’t miss what you’ve never had. I have no idea what growing up/ living without narcs would be like, so I don’t miss it.

    2. Lori says:


      No not directed at you. I’m speaking in generalities. I see many on here that cognitively know they are dealing with a narc, but have not accepted it including myself, but I am almost there. Accepting what they are and that there if no hope is a process not an event. It takes some a tremendous amount of pain and abuse to get there others accept it pretty quickly. If you are Codependent, it will take longer. Everyone is different

      1. Caroline says:

        Oh, thanks, Lori… no offense taken. I just can’t always see (on my device) if a comment is directly to me… so sometimes I may answer when it wasn’t mine — and sometimes I may not answer when I should! 😉

    3. NarcMagnet says:

      I would much rather guess under than over as far as H(is) G(reatness) is concerned and say 37-38.
      Narcs are well known for numerous overlapping relationships, and since no matter how hard you may to create some kind of timeline from his books he doesn’t leave enough crumbs to actually give that much away. I can appreciate the lengths he goes to for such privacy.
      Although, I really must apologize for getting “mon lige et sauveur” birthday off by a few days. Apparently it is September 1st.

  12. Lori says:

    Truth. Even though I have been to therapy you answered some things that a therapist just can’t answer well because, they aren’t a narcissist.

    1. Findinglife11 says:

      So true also

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