Poll : Which Forms of Cold Fury Have You Experienced?

POLLHG WANTSTO KNOW

Cold fury is the manifestation of ignited fury. All schools of narcissist will utilise cold fury, however it is used most of all by the Mid Range Narcissist and least by the Lesser Narcissist. Like any manifestation of fury, it is designed to draw fuel from the victim to address the wounding that has been caused to the narcissist’s construct.

Which forms of cold fury have you experienced? Has the narcissist given you an Absent Silent Treatment and walked out on you to disappear for days or weeks (note this does not include the situation where you have been disengaged – if you could still telephone or message the narcissist and were not blocked during this AST you were not disengaged from). Perhaps you were cold-shouldered at work or a party where the narcissist engaged pleasantly with everyone else but ignored you, failing to respond to your polite questions, not looking at you and brushing off your responses (whilst of course sucking in your fuel). Did the narcissist play the Incredible Sulk and sit there pouting and sulking? Perhaps the narcissist talked about you or communicated through third parties (“Tell your mother I do not want anything for dinner.”) even though you were there in the room. You may choose all forms that have been used against you and as ever please do expand on your experiences in the comments section.

Thank you for participating.

Which forms of cold fury have you experienced?

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264 thoughts on “Poll : Which Forms of Cold Fury Have You Experienced?”

  1. I chose EVERY SINGLE ONE. And he used every single one. If my fuel was hitting stale he just upped the ante,and institute a golden period and the debilitate me by rolling through an escalating list of hateful behavior.

    It was awesome. … 13 years of absorbing his hatefulness. God I am glad I left.

  2. The ex was brilliant at waking up in the morning full of love in his black eyes, telling me how much he loved me, how happy he was. We would have days of bliss and he would remind me of the beautiful memories we would cherish. He would call and text me through out the day , telling he was counting the minutes until I came home.That dinner was on the stove and he had a special evening planned. I would rush home in excitement and anticipation…only to find an empty house and his stuff cleared out. He would disappear for weeks. Sometimes longer than a month. During that time He would ignore my texts and phone calls…except the occasional..” you are crazy you know that? You know why I left, think about it. And even if i tried to explain you wouldn’t understand so I won’t waste my breath .” I never did ever get any sort of explanation. But when he eventually came back it was always with the uttered threat ” don’t even think about bringing up the past. Don’t ask questions.dont start something , otherwise I will leave again without a second thought or backward glance. You are nothing to me until I decide you are worthy.” Man was I a schmuck… Don’t miss those days. But Hey, at least I can fully appreciate the good now:)

  3. Neither my mother nor my ex are specially passive-aggressive. I do not remember them using any of these cold fury manipulations. I just remember them each talking to a third party and ignoring me once, and this felt more like triangulation (“look I prefer to talk to her than you”). But now I see that it was kind of silent treatment
    I never associated passive aggressiveness (or cold fury) to NPD until I came to this blog and that is when I realized my older sister may be a narc too. She definitely uses silent treatments, has tantrums and sulks. Her behaviours never affected me though. She has some malice but not to the degree my mother and ex have.
    My future ex remains silent for some seconds only, but this is constant and wearing. He also used to ignore my messages. He does it less now. He does seem to have less malice than all the narcs I know.

  4. My overwhelming thought as I read through this thread is how much control they really do have over us.

    1. And how good they are at sowing confusion, MB. Very enlightening, especially to read about all of the similarities. Must be hard wired unless there is a narc playbook out there.

      1. I think they do what works on human kind and figure it out from a young age. They aren’t the only ones with similarities. Ha! They pull the strings and make us dance for them like puppets.

      2. LOL, that is true. But at least we are fully functioning humans without the narcs. They are nothing without us!

      3. “They are nothing without us” I suppose you’re correct, SMH but I’ve never felt it.

        I felt expendable: adjective
        “of little significance when compared to an overall purpose, and therefore able to be abandoned.”

        Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.

      4. We are their fuel. We would be fine without them because we can relate to each other. They would not be fine without us. Can you imagine a world of only narcs? You have to flip your thinking. As individuals, yes, we are expendable. But in the aggregate we are not. Small comfort perhaps, but makes me feel smug :).

      5. MB
        I know just what you mean. Each of us is totally expendable. It’s just people in general they can’t live without. You and I are expendable.

        I was very shocked one day when I asked my exhusband what he wanted to do in retirement. His answer was to move alone to a different state. Knowing how he depends on his large raft of fuel sources I said “what about all your friends, won’t you miss them?” He answered, “i’ll just make new friends.” When I asked, “What about all your family?” He said, “I can text or call them when I want to hear from them.”

        Now I’ll be shocked if he actually does that, because he’s a very lazy man and such a move would require a lot of personal effort. But it reinforced to me that in his mind none of us are really important to him.

        For me the way to deal with knowing that I am completely expendable is to be independent and focus on my own life, separate from my various narcs. If they leave, they leave. Odds are they will be back. Until then I’m keeping my focus on my own personal journey.

      6. Now when I am upset I ask myself … why are you upset ? Because he …
        why did he said or did that ?
        Because he is a narcissist and he is trying to get you upset … mmmm ok
        Well then / he is a narcissist and this is what they do.
        Ok / let him be the little narcissist he is …

        That is exactly one of the first sentence he told me … everything will be fine … just let me be the little narcissist I am . Crazy hein

  5. Dearest Ugotit,

    I now “getit” hehe …. thank you for the update ….. so now you can move on from “observing the mateship of the baboon” 🐒
    Good girl
    Luv Bubbles xx

  6. FOTS, it’s unbelievable how similar they all are! It certainly does make HGs job easier.

  7. It was a deadly calm, icy tone of a few words, delivered with a chilly stare… felt like I’d been freezer-burned.

  8. Another cold fury tactic ive experienced with the narc is long delays between messages. They also arent as lovey dovey as usual.
    Cold fury seems very much passive aggressive. Instead of coming out and saying you said or did this and it upset me or you didnt do this they punish and gaslight pretending everything is as usual. They are not able to communicate and thats one of the reasons they fail at relationships. Come to think of it they dont want to communicate bc they enjoy playing yje mind games and using people.

    1. Chihuahuamum,
      I noticed the same discrepancy between the message delays and lovey dovey behavior. Reply is usually immediate (within 1-2 minutes) or not at all. One time a half an hour passed and I got a reply. An occasional time 8 hours would go by but that was always a rarity. MAJORITY of the time replies were within 2 minutes or not at all. It is always all or nothing with them. There is never any in-between.

    2. Chihuahuamum, We would read it as self-sabotage due to poor communication skills. Really hard for me to get my head around but that is what I thought for the longest time. But if I am reading HG correctly, it is not self-sabotage at all. The things the narc wants are different from the things you or I might want. The narc wants chaos, the narc wants upset, the narc wants you to pull away, the narc wants you to feel like a human ping pong ball. The narc wants to communicate but in his way, not in your way.

      1. In retrospect I am somewhat confused by how my mid-ranger reacted when I got angry and upset and told him off…he gave me silent treatments every time. I get that it would be me challenging him, but also would be excellent challenge fuel due to my emotional state, you’d think he would’ve taken the opportunity to engage in the argument and have me bleeding more fuel. But nope, just went totally silent every time.

      2. Supernova DE, if I may offer insight regarding why your mid ranger would give you silent treatment in response to your challenge fuel. If I am not mistaken, you are an intimate secondary source. Narcs prefer positive fuel from secondary sources and challenge fuel from a secondary source will trigger a corrective devaluation. One of the forms in which this corrective devaluation may be issued is silent treatment. Again, this is just my insight for what it is worth.

      3. IL – I totally agree. I guess I just feel he’s foolish for not pushing it, as once I get started on a rant, I could go on and on and he could’ve got loads more fuel before starting the silent treatment LOL. It’s kind of hard to get me angry enough to blow, but once I’m there…watch out. This is true in all of my relationships throughout my life hehe

  9. I have experienced a number of these from various narcissists. My Mid Range Moron loved to ignore my messages/direct questions and then I would not hear from him for days without any explanation.

    What he would want was for me to beg him and ask what was wrong, apologize for something I had no idea I did, or for some tiny transgression that he blew up into nothing.

    When I would turn it on him and say, ‘OK, I see you’re going through some stuff, just contact me when you get things straightened out.’ I would hear from him again, sometimes telling me that I didn’t care enough to ask him what was wrong.

    I also had a Mid Range coworker do these things. He would glare silently, or just completely ignore me, enter the room and say hi to everyone but me, etc. He would also incredibly sulk.

    I am so beyond this behaviour and I really don’t have time for people who should be in diapers.

  10. This is a great poll HG! You do such a good job of keeping us engaged. Lotsa good discussion. Have you considered doing a “where do you fit into the fuel matrix” poll? Or has it been done and I missed it?

    1. If you successfully go and remain no contact, you do not exist in the matrix at all. I fuel no one but me and it feels great!

      1. Bibi
        For demonstration purposes it may be helpful because many people have family or work narcissists. During the school year, I am an NISS in the matrices of 5 parents. I am on vacation so no more IRL field work until September.

      2. You’re a teacher K! I must have missed that somehow. You said you wanted a coffee cup for your desk, but I have a desk too but I’m NOT a teacher. I would rather stab my eyes out with hot needles than teach. Somebody has to do it, though. God love you girl!

      3. MB
        You didn’t miss a thing. I have a desk because my MMRN is a business owner and he would work from home. He is gone but I still have the desk. There is no way I would teach, however, I work in the school library and 3 of the volunteers (parents) are narcissists. The others (narcs) hang out at the playground after school.

      4. K
        Odd you saying that about parent volunteers. Indy school is a middle school so we get very few parent volunteers, but now that I think about it, most of the few we’ve were probably narcs. I avoided them as much as possible because they made me uncomfortable.

      5. WS
        The majority of volunteers are on the elementary level (grades1-5) once the kids go to middle school the parents don’t volunteer as much. We recently voted in Dirty Angel Dad (D.A.D.) as co-president of the PTO.

      6. MB
        Yes, I am and I absolutely love it. Libraries are full of beautiful books, as well as, peace and quiet.

      7. You are good at it too K! You do a spectacular job for us here in the library at HGU. Your contribution is invaluable.

      8. Awwww…thank you, HG and MB!!! I am always happy to help out in the library at HGU!

  11. I have experienced all of these, but most recent narc mostly ignores text messages and once did the silent stare without acknowledging me and or anything I said. The cold in his eyes really got to me and I thought that was it, but later he explained it away with some feeble excuse.

    Thank you for your reply, HG.

    There is something I don’t quite understand. What is the purpose of acting aloof and cold after having been close and intimate? I don’t mean after an arguement or disagreement but just in general. Is it a fear of getting too attached?

    He is the one who initiates all the intimacy, bonding, and closeness and then a few days later his mannerisms will be that of a different person. He will be polite and reserved as if we had just met or barely knew one another.

  12. I choose several…but the present silent treatments never worked to gain fuel from me (I was happy to have time/quiet to myself). The absent silent treatments didn’t work either – unless I was put in an urgent situation, as a result, and he would get fuel once he returned.
    The only time that I texted to him during an absent silent treatment, as in “The narcissist walking out on you and disappearing for less than one day” was the day when he just walked out, fully dressed and clearly ready to leave, didn’t take one look at me, said three words and left…I didn’t question where he was going, even though he made it look like he was ‘exiting’ the relationship…I mobilized and escaped the situation.
    I didn’t know what the dynamic was at the time, but I texted him a bit (while escaping) making him believe that I was wondering where he went (I didn’t care at the time), that I was concerned about him (I was concerned about my own safety). Once I got to a place of safety; I had stopped texting him…later that day (he had returned) he casually texted me, from our home at the time, in a manner that sounded like he had gone out for a trip to the grocery store…wondering where I had gone.
    I never went back to live in that “home” again.

    1. Well done WhoCares. I’m glad you “escaped”.

      I like the way you emphasised “home”. It’s not a real home if you’re living with a narc and they want you under their control. A home should be where you feel safe and free to relax and be your authentic self and where those who live with you support and accept you.

      1. Thank-you WiserNow.
        Re: “home”…the irony was how much he emphasized the sanctity of the ‘home’…how important it was to protect that.
        Yeah.

      2. You’re welcome WhoCares.
        Ha! Yeah, indeed. They appear not to want “sanctity”. Instead they create situations where others are “damned if they do and damned if they don’t”. It makes me think that their perception of “sanctity” is to ruin or overturn the empathic person’s perception of sanctity. It appears that, to them, there is no power in sanctity.

  13. I mostly think about the bolthole escape that became a daily routine towards the end when we were living together (which was only a month in after moving me out 13 miles from the city and paying 2K to get me out of my apartment lease). He would get home from work and I would have made a very nice warm meal for him, covered it and put it in the microwave because he would never be home when he said he would so I could never time dinner right for him. Once he did come home, he would shut himself away in the office to smoke cigarettes, text exes and new supply’s, get high, play solitaire, hang out with a female roommate he couldn’t stand over coming to bed and getting naked with me. I eventually stopped knocking on the door to ask him to come to bed and I would put my earplugs in and take an Ambien so I could get a decent nights rest and not stew about why he wasn’t coming to bed and so I wouldn’t wake up when he would rudely come to bed finally banging about doors, drawers, items on the bathroom counter, turning the television on at 3am, rough housing with the dogs, and even sometimes smoking a cigarette in the bedroom because he knew I hated smoking in the bedroom in particular.

    I also think of the many many of times that he would call me to tell me that he was on his way home and even ask me if I wanted him to pick anything up since we lived 13 miles out of the city. I wouldn’t call repeatedly like a crazy, but after he was not home in an hour or two, I would call and text him once to ask him to at least let me know he was ok. He would never answer. Ambien, I LOVE YOU!

    Once my car was in the shop and he had to take me to work for a few days in a row. The 3rd day, he never came home and wasn’t home in the morning to take me to work either. He didn’t even have the balls to call me, he had to call the roommate couple to ask them to take me to work. I called Uber, and on the way into town, I texted him, “In all that masculinity that you so proudly own, you are the biggest coward I have ever met in my life.”

    This all started the day we moved the last of my boxes into the house. I moved in on February 1st. We had been dating since July the previous year. If he would have just left me in my apartment, he could have stretched it out with much longer, I suppose I could have even unknowingly been a shelf gal or a secondary downgraded from primary. I don’t understand why he moved me out there. I escaped only a month and a half after moving in, on March 17 while he was away with new primary for the weekend. She is complete opposite of me in every way possible and has nothing on me. So bizarre.

    It’s all been a fucking head trip. No contact is still under way and going strong. I just hope he stays away like he is doing now.

      1. Hello K…that post is identical to what kind of woman he is with now. It actually makes NC easier because I am utterly disgusted. When people ask me about him, say anything about him, or ask if we dated, I say I don’t know who you are talking about. Must be another Amanda of whom you are thinking. Thank you for the encouragement!

      2. You are welcome, Amanda
        That post is very helpful and keep up the NC. BTW, I laughed after I read this:

        I say I don’t know who you are talking about. Must be another Amanda of whom you are thinking.

        Excellent gaslighting skills. I love it!

    1. Wow, Amanda. That’s awful. What a POS. When mine told me he was moving to X, I quipped, ‘I guess that means I’m moving to X too,’ because, you know, he owned me, inhabited me. To his credit, he laughed but I knew if I moved to X he would completely ignore me. They are oppositional, along with everything else. It’s part of the disorder/mentall illness. Glad NC is underway and going strong.

  14. Dear Mr Tudor,
    The one that stands out for me was when the weasel offered to drive us to a Veterans Day march … then suddenly dumped Mr Bubbles and myself to pursue a married female who was participating on behalf of her veteran father who had recently died ..the weasel bought her a coffee and totally ignored us. We were furious how he treated us ….it came right out of left field and we were definitely given the cold shoulder
    That was the last time we attended together and the friendship ceased approx 8 weeks later after much to ing and fro ing, chuck in his heart attack, sulking and silent treatments into the bargain basement as well.

    I think Dr Phil said … “earn your way out of a friendship/relationship” that’s why I helped him when he was down …. I “earnt” my exit with no regrets and can hold my head up high.

    “Brian’s” comment on a previous post about narcs being a waste of time ….. totally nailed it! Great red flag as well … if someone is taking up a lot of your time …. hot or cold fury ….. get the hell out
    Yet again .. another great poll Mr Tudor
    Thank you

    1. Dear Bubbles
      You were unceremoniously dumped for a fresher more potent source of fuel. That bastard!
      That cup of coffee he bought was part of his seduction golden period hoover. Then he triangulated her with you and your husband and deployed a present ST so he could get both negative and positive fuel at the same time.

      Then it appears he tried to use pity plays to hoover you back into the friendship. I agree; get the hell out and stay out!

      Luv
      K

      1. Dearest K,
        You explain things sooooo welll … I luv that about you (I really need explaining to) … hehe
        We didn’t know why it was happening at the time, as we had been so nice, supportive and helpful to him.

        He took her under his wing because her father he been awarded a “Queens” medal just after he died and the weasel wanted to be associated with all the notoriety… he even got himself an invite for dinner to her and her hubby’s place.

        After the novelty of the medal died down (he had his ugly mush in many piccies in our newsletter with her, along with the medals) ….so did she … now she’s gone …. maybe the weasel dug his claws in a bit too deep too early. He volunteers in the school system …. so he has an abundant guaranteed amount of fuel (along with hospitals … nurses and teachers at his disposal)…. 🤢
        He continues to “up stage” everyone. He’s a joke! 🤡
        A good lesson for us is …. “looking in, from outside the box” …we see so much more.

        Thank you lovely learned lady …. you’re such a gem 💎
        Luv Bubbles xx

      2. Thank you dear Bubbles!
        I just can’t resist another chapter of, The Adventures of Bubbles and The Weasel, and the explaining helps me learn cognitive narcissism.

        The Weasel is a crass opportunist looking for fuel and he will stoop to any level to get it, no matter how foolish it makes him look. He may be a joke or laughingstock, but it works for him and from his POV that is all that matters, however, we can have a good laugh at his expense.

        It is much better to be outside the box looking in; we can see everything.

        Luv
        K
        XOXO

      3. Dearest K,
        Thanks gorgeous ….you’re just too cute. The Adventures of….. 😂😂😂… hilarious
        Get this K. .. when he’s looking for fuel, he grows facial hair to claw his victim …. then he shaves it off after he’s got her…. then press play and repeat … what a knucklehead …. he looks ugly both ways 😂😂😂
        Luv Bubbles xx

  15. HG, do lieutenants wound you the same ? Do you give them silent treatments or just smart ass comments right back ?
    I see men / friends wound the narc ( with guy insults ) and I see him just act quiet but not really seem wounded to me …but maybe he ignores the friend soon after ?

  16. I am not really a good example because my relation ship ended very quickly when devaluation as I was too volatile. So he never did the worse he would have. I think he had to give up on me before he could play the cold fury as he would have liked. He could see that when he lit the touch paper in me I could become as crazy as him, anger management poor with him. He once said I was like him, that freaked me out.

  17. The one that got the most votes (ignoring messages), he only did once, but that is the one that got me to this site, so thank god he did it. He never ‘walked out on me’ because I was a shelf IPSS and we never ever fought about anything when we were together. But he would suddenly leave conversations, disappear for days on end, and then pick up right where we left off. He stood me up twice, which wasn’t too bad over two years, and one of the times he had the courtesy to cancel. Worse is that he would keep me on email for hours on end while he figured out whether he could pop over. When I pointed out how much of my time he was sucking up because he refused to plan anything (control issues), he sulked. I only picked up on his cold fury once but I gave it back in spades (hotly, of course). His anger so infuriated me that I told him he thought I was a fucking satellite of planet George (not his name but you get the idea). And that, my friends, was the beginning of the end…

    1. SMH
      “But he would suddenly leave conversations, disappear for days on end, and then pick up right where we left off.”

      This is what I see in your statement: sense of superiority and entitlement, lack of accountability (he can do as he pleases and there will be no explanations or apologies forthcoming), control (he is making all the moves; you are just a pawn), devaluation (ST), cold fury, compartmentalization and gas lighting.

      What’s it all for?

      Fuel.

      1. Absolutely the way I read it at certain points, K. For instance, when we first met, he wanted me when I wasn’t available and disappeared when I was available. That is why I dumped him after a month – control freak. But I went back because I did not really understand the dynamic – I thought I could handle it. There was a period where I was super anxious and made him stay in contact for a whole month. He did it and was actually very good about it – so good that after that month I felt myself losing interest. But then he suddenly reverted and I was all caught up again. Just goes to show that it’s the dance that keeps one engaged rather than the person, and that’s because of their self-esteem and intimacy issues. What hell, is all I can say…

      2. SMH
        Yup, toxic logic: hot/cold, push/pull, black/white. It is all a dance to keep us on our toes. Exactly; what the hell!?!

      3. “But he would suddenly leave conversations, disappear for days on end, and then pick up right where we left off.”

        MINE DOES THIS ALL THE TIME!!!! I will text him and he will ignore me for days or weeks. And then when we finally talk he will bring up stuff that I texted about like there was no pause. Like for example a Netflix show that we both watched. When we finally spoke a month later he randomly picked up there from the last thing I texted about that went ignored, which was that show. It is so weird. It is like I was a big book and he just stuck a bookmark on the page, put it back on the shelf to know just where to pick up wherever he left off.

        Shit, and I thought it was just me. The shelf metaphor at work again. Not only do they shelf and remove and repeat but it is almost like some sort of paperwork or “form” is filled out that way when they return it is documented where to resume.

      4. FOTS, I am hysterial with laughter here on the sofa. I swear we were/are with the same guy, but I am not sure mine reads 🙂 as I would have to write the same thing to him over and over, trying to get him to understand what it means to be human.

      5. FOTS, All of the MRNs must be cast from the same mould! How can you be in the middle of a conversation and…poof? Gone!!! A normal person would say gotta go, brb, ttyl. kiss my ass, eff off…something, anything. But nooooooo! Vanishing act. Are you still there? *crickets*

      6. LOL, MB. One of the last things I wrote to mine was: Why do you up and leave conversations without signing off? A NORMAL person would sign off. YOU ARE A PSYCHOPATH.

      7. This is so true K. All of what you say. They use people like pawns and they choose empaths in order to be able to get away with it.

        Empaths keep giving them chances because empaths are more likely to see it from everybody else’s perspective but their own. Empaths try to repair any damage to the relationship in order to keep it on an even keel.

        Narcissists don’t want an “even keel” though. Narcissists want power. And so they keep “dancing” together.

      8. WiserNow
        Empaths offer so much: tenacity, positivity, truth seeking, love, healer, agreeableness, patience and empathy. No wonder they choose us; the fuel, residual benefits and character traits are phenomenal. My IRL empath keeps letting all the neighborhood narcs hoover her back into the narcissistic cycle over and over again. She is like the town bicycle; she lets all the narcs take a turn.

        They love the dance and they love contrast.

      9. That’s so true K. I know that, as an empathic person, it’s very easy to fall into the trap of feeling sympathy for someone, even when it’s very clear they are narcissistic. I know that I, for one, need to consciously and logically work on “containing” that instinctive reaction.

        By the way, I saw the comments about you being a librarian. I can see how that’s the case. You have a talent for compiling informative details about certain things that you have gathered over time. And then you present them in a succinct and useful way for us all. Nice one K! 🙂

      10. Thank you, WiserNow!
        I try to be succinct, clear and accurate. It is a work in progress and I really enjoy interacting with you and the other bloggers.

  18. I hadn’t realised my mother applied cold fury until reading this. The stare the silence the sulk – and my ex husband stared at the TV ignored my messages and disappeared. The greater my last narc stared and stared or turned his back on me or would play the piano so he didn’t have to engage and even joked that his brother had a bolt hole from his wife and kids. A brotherhood of narcs.

  19. My experience from the last involvement with an MMN who introduced me to NPD: sulking, silent treatments from few minutes till a day, never longer than 2-3 days and always explained with some (imaginary) reason. One time ignoring me in a WhatsApp group for few hours while we all discussed an upcoming trip, so weird. Also asking a friend to say he cannot contact me for a while (maybe this was shelfing?). Never been blocked though. HG’s article “The incredible sulk” explained most of his behaviour in this matter.

    Narc my boss (CEO) who targeted me at work after I refused his advances, his cold fury occurs in between being extremely charming towards me and me challenging him in some way:
    Giving printed documents to everyone but me. Deleting my input (which he first requested) for the presentation, this is done without my knowledge beforehand, while I bragged to a colleague that my input would be used (so embarrassing). Deleting my work trip a day before I was about to go. Me hearing it from his assistant, while I was with him in a meeting that same day, he ignored me most of the day! At an work event in a group of people getting everyone a drink but me, claiming bartender forgot it. Asking everyone a question in a meeting except me or postponing my question till the end when there is no time to answer it. He then says, yes Lilly you have the most interesting questions but they require more time to be answered properly, we will leave them till the end… Being stuck in the elevator with him and another colleague for 2 hours and not saying a word to me, only glaring at me and feeding of my fear that we could die any moment. Yes it was only the second floor, but still I was scared to death. When we were rescued he said, you were not scared weren’t you, I would rescue you, you know that right? Sometimes I suspect him of arranging this “incident”, because I challenged him massively a week before. And he does many many other things. Everything is done covertly, nobody suspects anything. He is very handsome, intelligent, funny and successful and his mask is rock solid. That said I think he is an sociopath and I seem to be the only one who is on to him. Very difficult situation to deal with that is for sure.

    1. Hi Lilly, That sounds awful and scary. He does seem like a sociopath to me. You are on to him because you are probably the only one he is targeting. He is isolating you from your colleagues the way a narc at home would isolate a partner from family and friends. He is either trying to punish you for resisting his advances by making you leave or he is trying to get you to turn to him. He has probably done it to other people but they are also probably gone now. I hope you can easily find another job and shatter his enormous ego into a thousand pieces (not so hard with a narc) before you leave!

      1. SMH,
        Thank you for your reply, I agree with you on everything you stated. Yes it is awful. I am not a psychologist but he shows many traits of sociopathy. I think he knows that I know and that is why he enjoys my discomfort. I don’t think that he wants a relationship with me anymore, but likes the game and is trying to intimidate me to not reveal his true colours. I am mostly frightened/irritated of the unknown and his unpredictably, that is why I keep reading HG’s work and per his advice keep low most of the time. For personal reasons I was not able to leave this job yet and he knows this as well. It is very bitter that I have to leave a self build good career because of him, but I am afraid I will need to consider this option if this does not stop. Sometimes I feel the need to confront him about it, but I will probably only provide him with fuel. I do not want to expose him, just mind my own business. I hope he gets the message.

      2. HG’s advice sounds good, Lilly. I would probably confront him, but then I am hot-headed like that and have problems with bosses anyway. I am guessing he won’t let up, though, until you break or go because those are the only ways he will win, and it’s all about winning with them. Maybe he will get distracted by someone else – as horrible it is to wish a narc on someone else. I wish you luck, in any case, and glad you can come here when you are in crisis. I am well out of my situation now but I did come here in crisis mode.

      3. Thank you SMH for your well wishes. The old me would react exactly the same way, confronting him, but now I know that depriving him of fuel has even more effect. In the mean time I am biding my time and collecting evidence against him and if needed I will bring him down.

      4. Good. That is what I did to my narc. I collected evidence for two friggin’ years and brought him down (I hope – I don’t know because I haven’t followed the aftermath of my disclosures!).

      1. K, thank you for the article, I have not read it yet. I think I need HG on my speed dial for the shit this man is doing. Sometimes I wish I could hire HG to unleash him on this guy, but one can only dream right. I did have a few consultations with HG though and will probably need more as it helped me tremendously to handle this situation.

      2. You are welcome, Lilly
        You definitely need HG on speed dial. Your work environment is too toxic and you don’t deserve that at all. It was very upsetting to read what he has done to you. I would love it if HG were available as a Sociopath-for-Hire; we can only dream.

        Your boss is a Grade A Bastard! Hopefully, the article will help you sort him out.

  20. Hi, MB. “Exchanging pleasantries like acquaintances (if you happen to get a response at all). “I hope you are well.” Who TF are you talking to?”
    What you wrote is exactly right. You are thinking what happened to all the “my love,” “my sweet,” baby,” “I miss you,” and the rest of the BS they spouted. The thing I struggle the most with is I never asked him to say any of this. He was the first to say ” I love you” and the rest. I would not have dared to bring it up first. He could have kept it at a friends’ level all along. But going from declarations of love to, like you said, acquaintances to nothing that is a big shock to the system. Thank you for validating my experience. All the best to you!

    1. Maybe it’s the stranger zone HG talks about prior to disengagement? Or just run-of-the mill shelving?

      1. Well, the last conversation was friendly and the narc promised future contact. That was several months ago and no word since. My messages have never been ignored. I have not attempted to contact him because he asked me to wait for him to contact me. So go figure what that means.

      2. I’m no expert IL, but I have done a lot of study at HGU. So applying my learning, I say it’s a textbook prior warning silent treatment/shelving done so you won’t interfere while he’s seducing another appliance. It could turn into disengagement, but not likely owing to the crumbs and your compliance by not contacting him. My crystal ball says you will be hoovered from the shelf when it’s your turn. (That is, if you’re still there when he comes back for you.)

        Does that sound right HG?

      3. Thank you, MB. I appreciate your insight. Well, he did provide an explanation when he asked to wait. He needed to work out some issues with his IPPS. It’s just now several months have passed with no word.

  21. Present silent treatment. Pretending to ignore me while watching TV together – looking at me sideways and when I look back, there’s a little smirk, a little twist of the lip. Pretending not to hear me when I speak to him directly. Looking blankly at me when I ask a direct question and then walking away. Getting short when I remind him “you didn’t answer me” and sometimes, he still doesn’t answer. Seething visibly, with no apparent reason -to make me ask what’s wrong and risk an outburst. Making little sounds of displeasure and then when I ask, ignoring that I asked, but still being visibly displeased. Giving me “hurt & innocent look #4” when I make myself coffee and don’t offer him any. Retaliation for me not doing something he feels is beneath him by not doing something I feel he should do – some housekeeping chores or managing his own affairs. Actual conversation: Him: “You seem to think it’s ok to walk past an overflowing garbage can without taking it out when you know I have to ride my bike to work!” Me: “You know what? you’re right. In my world, men take care of the garbage.” Him: Silence. Subtext: I have to be at work early and not much time to do anything before I leave and he sits home all day, waking up around 11, going in to work or the gym around 4. The outside garbage barrel is 10 feet from the door, so it wouldn’t REALLY be so much trouble for him to make 2 trips, he just DOESN’T WANT TO. Result: He went on a garbage strike for a month. I couldn’t wait it out, so… I did it.

    1. Dearest kelleygurl116,
      Your fella needs to “work out” on his balls .. and grow a pair 🏋️
      Be a “man” and take out your “wheelie” bin for goodness sake
      😂
      Luv Bubbles xx

  22. The constant ignoring (aka: “shelving”) is what gets me every time. For the last 2 weeks he has become some kind of automaton or robot. “We will talk soon okay?” I have lost count of getting that reply back. It’s almost like he set up some automatic message feature to “auto reply” to me with those words each time I reach out.

    1. Hi Gabrielle, since I’ve been following this blog, your experience sounds very much like mine. I could write most of the things you’ve been saying but usually I don’t say anything to him since I’ve learned that it makes little difference. HG’s blog has helped me immensely. Thank you for your candid posts. You sound like such a sincere and loving person, he doesn’t deserve you.

      1. I agree Nina, he doesn’t deserve Gabrielle. And same for you if you are involved in something similar. All these twisted messages and keeping you hanging. Seriously, I know that it’s all part of the “infection” but they’re not worth the waiting and hoping etc etc. They are giving you crumbs and they don’t actually care about how you truly feel. You deserve something real and authentic.

      2. Nina,
        You are very sweet, thank you. I find that there are many here in a similar boat as I am so to say. it’s funny that you say he does not deserve me. He will sometimes say that to me…

        “I do not deserve you, you are too good to me” or “You are sweet to think of me but please do not buy me a birthday gift. I do npt deserve gifts” and so on.

        At our most recent visit I heard, “This is amazing but also overwhelming” during one of our talks. I then said “you are going to tell me that you don’t deserve me aren’t you? Him: “Yeah I was. You never miss a beat do you? That is your mind, always whirring about”.

        I looked him point blank in the eye and I said “You are right, you do not deserve me. BUT…..here I am. I am here seeing you aren’t I? So I obviously feel that you deserve me. So let’s make the best of this shall we?”

  23. There is one other kind of “cold fury” too. It is quite the opposite of neglecting. If someone bombards you with messages, rings your bell every hour, urges you to see him/her because there is such an important reason and you told him/her that you do not have time and he/she looks at you innocently, you know, that is his/her way to torture you. It is another form to control you. It is some kind of stalking, but not the usual one. It is within the relationship, not after. They know, you need time to do your work, but they do not allow. They know, that you would have time for them, but not now. They force you to give them attention. And they know, that you get angry. They do not play with your fear of abandonment, they play with your fear to be absorbed. And it is all done on purpose . They hate your independency.. .

      1. HG, yes, I know, it does not fit very well. I do not really know what it is. It is similar. If you look into my mother`s eyes, when she thinks, I do not see it, you see a extreme callousness. “You will do, what I want. And I want you to be near me You cannot escape me.”

        Perhaps, HG, you think, it is not a form of cold fury, because you never experienced it that way. It is not done because of despair or anxiety, there is rage behind it. Pure ice-cold rage.

      2. Mona,

        I think I know what you mean. It is a form of anger in your parent, or a form of trying to control you. I think they can’t realise or accept that you are an independent person that can operate just as effectively with or without them.

        I think they are angry that you are not more “bound” to them or dependent on them (since they are superior…) and they want to make you feel guilty for that. By making you feel guilty, they try to make you the “cause” of the two of you “needing” to be together. It’s a manipulation, like everything else, I think. Even cold fury is a manipulation.

        Their “real” emotions are limited to anger, contempt, jealousy and wanting to win. Even so, I still think they need other people around them or some kind of human contact, because they are human and still need social contact. They need contact, however, their limited emotions are the only way they have to “create” that contact. So they use anger, contempt, attention-seeking, fury, manipulation… anything that will get the contact of others but at the same time creates a win/lose kind of dynamic.

        Also, the need for contact is, to them, seen as a weakness (and they are not weak…) so they cannot admit that they are the ones creating the contact and therefore giving you a form of “superiority” by “needing” you, because they cannot admit weakness. They need to “create” that need in the other person.

        I hope that makes sense.

      3. “Also, the need for contact is, to them, seen as a weakness (and they are not weak…) so they cannot admit that they are the ones creating the contact and therefore giving you a form of “superiority” by “needing” you, because they cannot admit weakness. They need to “create” that need in the other person.

        I hope that makes sense”

        This makes SO MUCH SENSE!!! My MMRN always feigns being “busy” to make it seem like he doesn’t need me.

        “Oh I should have time to talk tomorrow…” or “let’s try for a call tomorrow IF you want to if course…”

        They’ll never admit it but they need us as much as we need them. Well at least that’s how I feel anyway.

      4. Fuel on the Shelf,

        I think they need us too, although they show it in a twisted way. They’d never admit it in an open and authentic way, because to them that would make them “vulnerable”.

        When your narc says, “Oh I should have time to talk tomorrow…” or “let’s try for a call tomorrow IF you want to of course…” – to me it sounds like he’s signalling to you that he wants to talk to you but he can’t outright let you think that he wants to, so he makes it sound like other things are actually more important to him, i.e. …”should have time” … why call you in advance if he doesn’t know if he’ll have time or not??

        So the result is that you’re left hanging while he gets thought fuel from controlling whether you talk the next day or not. And by saying “if you want to of course”, that makes me think that HE actually wants to, but again, he can’t tell you that outright, so he projects it on to you. So now, again, he gets thought fuel from making you anticipate the call tomorrow and making you believe that it’s going to happen because YOU want it to.

        It’s all twisted mind-games and trying to play “guess what I’m really thinking” with them. It’s exhausting and takes away any real and authentic connection that they would actually benefit from.

      5. I think narcissists suffer from a severe case of FOBO. (Fear of better options). He tells you, let’s try to talk tomorrow so he has you as a safety net in case a tastier option doesn’t present itself. It seems to me it would be like watching television and not being able to enjoy the program because there’s a possibility of something on the other channels that might be even better. Narcissists are always flipping through the channels while taking for granted that they can always fall back on a few oldies but goodies. Just flip over to MBs channel, there’s always something good on there. 😂

      6. Yes, good point. It’s like they are looking at whatever option they think will give them better residual benefits at the time. They get bored easily, so a “commitment” that isn’t actually necessary for their self-centred needs, is not a priority. Why risk cutting off potential lines of fuel if you don’t really have to?

      7. WiserNow and MB
        I agree. With mine it doesn’t seem so much of making promises as a safety net, though that very well may be sometimes. Mine seem more to agree because they really do think it would be good, but then something else comes along, so they do that instead.

        Promises mean nothing and are often actually forgotten. What’s in front of them right now is what’s relevant. More of “A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush” kind of thinking.

      8. Funny enough last Friday he told me he would call on the weekend . I told him I had a commitment on Saturday ( an activity he knows i love and that we did together a lot) but was happy to chat outside of that .
        He did not call of course.
        But I did not care. I will never bring up that he did not called.

      9. WiserNow
        Very good explanation. Certainly described my mother and several bitter old people I know.

      10. Thank you Windstorm. I think I’m starting to read between the lines of what they say and do more now. It might be a case of my own emotional thinking being reduced too.

        The more I read and think about insecure attachment and the effect it has, the more it starts to make sense in some ways. I read something that described dismissive-avoidant children as being more likely to provoke anger and annoyance in those around them rather than warmth and affection. So, that being the case, it’s a maladaptive way of coping with insecure attachment that actually reinforces and perpetuates the maladaptation.

        When you think about it (that is, when you’re no longer swamped by emotional thinking), it’s really quite sad … yes, I know, I’m a die-hard empath 🙄 … The disorder both disallows their own “positive” emotions and alienates them from other people’s positive emotions, which could have been a way to “correct” their own emotions in the developmental stages of their brain.

        I’m not sure if this explains more sadistic and highly abusive sociopathic or psychopathic behaviour though, because that seems to me more biological than developmental, but then again, who knows?

      11. WiserNow,
        I think it’s always sad to see someone close to us sabotaging their own potential wellbeing with their bad behavior. Even when that person has hurt us.

      12. Windstorm,
        Yes, it is sad to see. Especially when you can see the person’s good points and not just their bad ones.

        Being real people made of flesh and blood, they can’t keep everything hidden behind a facade or illusion all the time, so of course, the truth is evident. They are great at some things, but like you say, their behaviour is self-sabotaging.

      13. Wiser Now,
        Yes. I agree completely! The last few months he has been a constant user of these “IF” statements like “yes we may talk IF you want to”…. “yes we may have a visit IF you want to”. And finally “I would love to call you IF you like that sort of thing”

        LOL. If I like that sort of thing!!! Which I find utterly HILARIOUS as he KNOWS how much I love our phone time.

        One time I called him “Captain IF”. (he has a fixation with all things superhero related). I became sarcastic and said “Hey there Captain IF….the self loathing superhero who surreptitiously seeks reassurance in a single bound!”

        He went silent and said. “Oh I give up. I have nothing to say to that”

        Me: “It was a joke”
        Him: “Okay then well I understand then. I DO want to talk to you and I DO want to see you, you know!”

        They really are like children sometimes.

      14. “So the result is that you’re left hanging while he gets thought fuel from controlling whether you talk the next day or not. And by saying “if you want to of course”, that makes me think that HE actually wants to, but again, he can’t tell you that outright, so he projects it on to you.”

        Good grief yes! He is the KING of projection. Not that he will ever admit it though. again LOL.

        One time (LOL how everything mentioned here triggers a story) but one time I accused him of projecting. He texted back “Ooooooh that is not gonna work on me sweet girl, I am IMPERVIOUS to psychological analysis”.

        Okay then!

      15. MB – I loooove and agree with what you say about FOBO!! I have a little notebook where I copy down comments or quotes from HG’s posts that strike me, so that when I have a weak moment of ET I can go there and gain some fortitude, your comment just got copied in!

        Why be someone’s stop gap until something better or with fresher more potent fuel comes along…no thanks!

      16. Supernova DE, thank you! I’m honored to be in the same notebook with HG.

    1. Mona
      Some victims fear abandonment and others fear being engulfed. Once your narcissist figures out your particular buttons then he will push those. The next target will be different.

      1. Jess and HG, thank you to both of you. It is not only engulfment, it is more than that. Engulfment is only part of it. There is a conscious will behind to hurt me. Yes, Jess, she looks for the buttons to push. “If I cannot make you unhappy through abandonment, then I will make you unhappy through presence all the time.” It is always a form of punishment.

    2. Mona – the subject of ‘cold fury’ aside – I appreciated reading your post because it is very similar to my experience with my mother (when I was unsure about her being a narc). The same dynamic of control, seeking attention, “knowing” you need time to work (or whatever it is you need to give your focus to).

      “They know, that you would have time for them, but not now. They force you to give them attention. And they know, that you get angry. They do not play with your fear of abandonment, they play with your fear to be absorbed. And it is all done on purpose . They hate your independency…”

      I do not see this, in the case of my mother, as an example of cold fury. In my situation, these behaviours of hers stood out all the more because given what I was going through at the time (when she was recently back in my life), she *should* have been able to put herself in my shoes and suspend her personal needs (or need for control) at least temporarily – but she could not. And when I pointed out her inability to empathize and prioritize; she would get defensive and try to convince me that she was trying “to help”…in *her* way.
      And when I pointed out that she was still putting her needs first, she would still try to turn the tables.
      In my case, she was not purposely playing on my fear of being absorbed – she was low on fuel and could only get emotional attention from me by continuing the same behaviours precisely because she would get attention in the form of me telling/explaining to her why I needed to focus and give my attention to the things that (hell, yes) had priority over her. So, then her need for fuel still came out in other things she would attempt to draw my attention to (seemingly benign and superficial means to redirect my attention to her.) It was not cold fury…but just a fuel grab.

      And, in my situation, it helped to flush out her narcissism.

      An example of cold fury (I think), in my mother’s case, would be during an instance where I pointed out the transparency of her behaviours and, in reaction, she rushed off into her bedroom and closed the door.

  24. Forgot to include my narc. Ive experienced cold fury in the way of shelving intimately. Hes never given an absent silent treatment but he has changed the dynamics of our intimacy. He will go strong for awhile then like a switch cold. Its been very confusing and upsetting. Ive become numb to it where i let him decide what itll be but in the process ive lost a degree of attraction and desire.

    1. CM,
      When you say he shelved intimacy, do you mean he cuts off sexual contact? Does he state this outright or do you have to figure it out by way of receiving rejection from him?
      Just curious, hope you don’t mind me asking. My narc did this same thing to me as a devaluation tactic, along with the worst cold shouldering I’d ever experienced right before he finally blocked me.

      1. Hi supernova DE….yes hes in a roundabout way removed himself intimately. He knows im not the type to beg for sex based on what ive told him so he doesnt initiate when im shelved and the few times i tried he gave me the subtle cold shoulder. He would joke about sexual things and flirt a lot and during shelving this ceases. Its like going from lovers to friends. Terribly upsetting.
        During the shelving hes made comments about women who want sex too much or characters that were rejected by their spouses as if it were funny. He knew this would hurt me bc ultimately thats been my situation.
        Id end up never talking sex or initiating and leaving it entirely up to him. Its become so awkward now when he does. He thinks its ok but i find it so odd. Talk about a sexual deflater. Thats their mentality they find nothing wrong with picking you off the shelf then placing you back. Were dolls to them except some dolls morph into bride of chuckie 😁

  25. Cold fury ive experienced so many times but didnt fully understand it until recently.
    My mother based on her mood at the time will inflict cold fury. It doesnt even need to be the result of wounding on my part. I can usually tell when shes in a mood bc she gives me a present silent treatment. How she does this is ignores me when im talking to her and starts up conversations with other people. I find it very embarressing and have come away feeling very low about myself almost ashamed like theres something wrong with me. Its taken me a long time but i now see it as a form of silent treatment used to punish me. To deal with it now if i sense shes in a mood i dont converse with her and let her initiate conversation with me.
    She also gaslights as a form of cold fury. If i recount a memory she will say it didnt happen or happened differently belittling me. I stand up for myself now and say no i was there you werent and it happened. The gaslighting has been a very frusterating one to deal with. Its definitely intentional and meant to diminish and to start conflict. Basically to be a pain in the ass.

    I had an acquantance id met thru my sons sports and she turned out to be a carbon copy of my mother. She also did the whole present silent treatment and i was very hurt by it then very angry.
    Its deeply hurtful to ignore someone while they are there and not respond to them when they talk to you as if you are invisible. Its meant to make you feel like a big zero. Very mean tactic. Also its meant to turn others away from you as well like what you have to say is of little importance.The best way to deal with it is to ignore them and let them get over their pissy moods. Dont try to start conversations at all let them initiate and at that point grey rock and keep it to a minimum. This is how ive found it to cope with this.
    Growing up when my mum was angry she would slam cupboard doors and give silent treatments.
    Cold fury sucks 🙁

  26. These were used the most by my MMRN.
    1. Being glared at
    2. Being stared at silently

    2015 was the year of “The Hatred” and that is when I got the most cold fury. Usually, I ignored it or walked away. Sometimes, he actually shook with rage, like a volcano ready to explode.

    The Turkey Dance really pissed him off. I would wobble around the kitchen like a turkey flapping my wings and singing this song.

    “Gobble, gobble, gobble
    My name is (insert MMRN’s name)
    I am the biggest turkey, you ever did see.
    Nothing but a big, fat, loser, just flapping my wings.
    Gobble, gobble, gobble.”

    (Repeat)

      1. Chihuahuamum
        Ha ha ha…payback’s a bitch. He did a crazy dance the year before telling me I was crazy and needed meds. He got so mad when I did the turkey dance but it was totally worth it.

      1. tigerchelle78
        Ha ha ha…I found it very satisfying to make fun of him during that year. He was such an easy target.

      1. Thanks, MB! I booked a flight to New Mexico and stayed with my sister for three weeks. He had no idea that I had left until he asked my oldest daughter where I was.

    1. No, I was not on that forum. I only answer questions on my own platforms and in spoken interviews (so you know it is me because you will recognise my voice). You will never find me answering or commenting on someone else’s forum.

  27. I’m dealing with a new narc a week ago he got mad at me and refused to speak to me on messenger but keeps talking about me in a group were both in and making comments to me and about me calling me out by name even posting about how much I hurt him when its me he hurt

    1. Dear Ugotit,
      I’m just curious … you say you’re dealing with a “new narc” ….. why is he in your life? When a person talks about you behind your back in a negative way, they are showing their true colours.
      He’s a baboon …. the local natives consider these creatures pests and vermin ….. he must go … once a baboon, always a baboon.
      I hope your next posting of him reports you gave him a banana and told him to “rack off hairy legs”.😂
      🐵🙈🙉🙊
      Luv
      Bubbles xx

      1. I’m just observing with amusement now he finally messaged me and is posting everywhere he found the love of his life I don’t care about him there’s no emotional investment

    2. I have a new narc too, but it’s more out of curiosity and a desire to unravel my attachment to ex-narcy and family-issues, than romantic feelings, which i don’t think i can have for them anymore. New narc is Eastern European, handsome —said he was diagnosed with npd after i asked. After we met he sent me a text saying i had very “breakable legs”.

      Not sure how curious i really am.

      1. Iroll, curiousity killed the cat. I had another narc during the time with my narc too, but narc 2 was a different kind of narc and I kept it ‘just friends.’ He was so much fun that I didn’t want to give him up!!

      2. What does that mean iroll? “Breakable legs”!?!? You better use them to run, now!

      3. SMH, that seems to be what’s happening here. He’s seductive yet cold— it’s not as sexual as with ex-narcy, but funny, scary and a bit intriguing. He was diagnosed npd-aspd and is on meds to prevent himself from ‘going over the edge’. I don’t know what happened before.

        He called me tonight and we talked for hours. Ex-narcy would never have done that in a million years. It’s intense but unreal, so walking away is just a matter of not feeding the energy.

        After trying to dissect and dismantle everything i said with cutting charm and a rough cynicism—he said “i love you” quietly but dramatically, right before he ended the chat. I laughed incredulously and he made a macho joke about how he will think of me vs other women, and then hung up.

        He said he was joking about breaking my legs, he just wanted to push my boundaries to get to my ‘real emotions’. I figured he was trying to shock me —thrill-seeking, getting away with pushing boundaries as extremely as possible.

      4. Iroll, My narc 2 sounds similar. I think we are attracted to the danger. We are not normal either. I know for myself that I am a bit of a risk taker and like edgy. I too get bored with ‘normal.’ Narc 2 sent mixed messages. He did not exactly blow hot and cold but he would confuse my role – friend, sister, lover. He had a harem and would do a lot of what people post about here, including what you are describing. He was much more networked, outgoing and expressive than main narc. He was also extremely wealthy and generous, while main narc was ‘safe’ (facade) and stingy with both emotions and material things. I think I was oversensitized because of main narc, but I also knew I did not want to get intimately involved with another ‘project.’ Narc 2 suddenly died last week. Heart attack in sleep after a night spent partying (coke/painkillers). How do I feel about it? I will miss him but at the same time I have this odd sense of freedom knowing that I won’t be replacing main narc with narc 2…

      5. SMH – wow, he stormed into your life and went out with a sudden bang!

        I like intensity, weirdness and difference, because life is weird and i can’t relate to normals. The side i can’t deal with and what antisocials ~only~ deal with, or need—to feel alive, is constant edge-pushing, risks, danger, or extreme driving work while sacrificing emotional needs (which they can only relate to like a drug addiction anyway), all of which makes them very tough. But tough like kids, in a way, because it’s only external toughness to numb their pain or escape boredom, chaotic and not grounded in real feelings and choices about what actually matters.!!! Talking to them about it is like entering a maze of contraditions, because they ‘think’ but don’t feel.

        It can be like having a swashbuckling Peter Pan who comes to you with a dagger instead of roses. Which is fun sometimes. Especially if you’re the Tinkerbelle type, ‘different’. Not your usual Wendy.

        But never get too close to the bullshit, i agree.

        Narc-2 said he respected me, but he hoped that once he got to ‘me’ – the mystery of whatever makes me yummy to him (or what i can do for him), he won’t lose that respect. But we both laughed knowing that he’s an innate jerk and he shows that too by being the one to demand contact and then ending it abruptly.

        He did also share the pain behind his behaviour—not being in control of himself and not knowing who he was all the time, making destructive choices, fearing failure to the point of denying it at all costs. Being in therapy for him, “felt like dying”, apparently realising all this was excruciating pain. It doesn’t change him, but he had to learn to take a less destructive path. So he can ‘behave’, but he’s still playing his game.

        He said it’s “a waste” to love him. He also said that he could be afraid of me because i might pity him—he knows i pitied narc-1, and said i shouldn’t have even been with narc-1 because of how messed up narc-1 was… but it was hard to see behind all the manipulation and rejection at the time. Narc-2 helped me to see what i really knew but wasn’t fully accepting because of my own emotional needs. So, it was a good conversation.

        Narc-1 was more sullen, gloomy and miserly – second is gregarious and more introspective. Maybe more feminine? Both are handsome as hell and have a flamboyant masculinity.

        Not going to date narc-2 though, although it could be fun, like being with a boy who wants to put you in a tree and beat you with thorny sticks as an immature form of making out, i don’t really have time for that at the moment. I’m not committing to anyone for a while either. Self-liberation is a good feeling.

        I do have better boundaries from hanging with the low-empaths, they have overall shown me how things ‘also’ work, more than my narky family.

        Just don’t play with the fire or dive headfirst into a shallow pool. But they do have insights to share, and it feels really good to be in a safe bed at night. Apparently (according to narc-2), that’s cheating 😉

      6. Iroll, I really enjoyed reading that even though i should be going to sleep! Your narc 2 sounds like my narc 2. One of the last things mine said to me – a few months before he passed away because we are in different countries right now – was that he had not felt whole since we had seen each other the previous year when he was visiting the country I am now in (I know, confusing, but we were neighbours (also went to same HS and Uni but did not know each other until about 10 years ago) part of the year and the other part of the year I was away). He also said he appreciated that I would take the time for him. Sounds like when yours says it is a ‘waste’ to love him or that he respects you. It’s flattery, which I guess is yet another form of manipulation. And maybe we go from cold narc to hot narc? Both are exciting in their own way precisely because they are extremes. But I too would have continued to self-liberate (I did from narc 1) had narc 2 not gone out with a sudden bang…

      7. SMH

        “And maybe we go from cold narc to hot narc?”

        Interesting! It certainly seems to be the case, like trying to fix the unbalance, repair the internal-support system. It’s still manipulation —yes. Time is the danger because it can wear you down, the familiarity of the person weakens one’s boundaries and then you get more entangled in the dynamic.

        One thing this has taught me is to fully separate from my narky family, they weren’t good for me and i wasn’t seeing them clearly.

        Thanks so much for sharing and the feedback ^ ^

      8. Iroll, yes, that is why I don’t mind that narc 2 went out with a bang. I’m not happy about it, and he left behind a lot of people who cared for him, but he took up a lot of my mental space and did the same push/pull, triangulation, leaving conversations, not responding to messages, etc as narc 1, which is manipulative. The difference was that no emotions or intimacy were involved with narc 2, and he was a hoot.

        I really only have one family narc, and that is my mother (how not). She can also be fun and has a lot of friends (kind of like my narc 2) but has problems with her offspring, though she does not acknowledge it. Still I don’t think my childhood primed me for all of these narcs. Anyway, whatever did, I am now back to my normal bitchy self and liking it.

    1. Lessers ignore you forever, it is in fact, all they ever do. All feeling and self-reflection is repressed and shut down to a minimal form of existence, they’re hollow shells. Pitiable.

      Once when i was with my somatic-lesser he refused to look at me the whole time because he was angry about me leaving him without his permission the previous time and inevitably, this time too. Because i had a life outside of him. He wasn’t acting like a ‘victim’ to get sympathy, he was sulking in a hostile-aggressive way, trying to make me feel worthless or show himself how worthless i was to him, aka devaluation.

      He recently sent me a ticket to go see him—without even saying anything.

      He could also ignore me while having sex, so i wasn’t eager for a repeat experience.

  28. I have been ignored for weeks/months/years even by friends who are narcs, Sometimes blocked, sometimes not. Some of them never block you. You know that these ones will hoover you at some point in the future. I’ve experienced them leaving/abandoning me in person and not coming back for hours/days. I’ve experienced physical violence, hitting me, punching me, pushing me, hands around my neck, pulling my hair. I’ve experienced emotional and mental, where you feel frozen, and you can’t move. I’ve experienced shouting and banging doors, etc. Sulking, silent treatments, cold shouldering, pretending you are not there and talking about you even though you are in the same room, triangulation (though that’s not cold fury I don’t think), in fact I don’t actually know much I haven’t faced. Destroying possessions, disabling my car, getting me arrested. I don’t know if these are part of it. My father and other family members did pretty much all of them.

    1. Hi tigerchelle…so sorry you went thru all that. Youve been thru a tremendous amount of abuse. Recognizing it is that start to healing 💓

      1. Hi Chihuahuamum ,

        Thanks for your comment. Trust me that’s nothing! It is only a glimpse of what I have lived through. Many of us have been through so much pain. But we are all still here. Just shows, that narcs may hurt us, but they cannot break you. No matter how powerful they “think” they are. We are the powerful ones. We actually put them to shame!

  29. Being ignored for weeks/months on end, no response at all, not blocked but not knowing if the messages were read either. No confirmation things were over, while helpless to resolve anything. just simply ceased to exist. It was absolutely the worst punishment he could have given me and he knew that. It broke my mind and spirit, but it was also the final trigger that eventually got me seeking answers.

    1. Hi echo…im sorry that happened to you. I think too it can be the final straw and help to finally move on. I know for me i couldnt tolerate that bc of my fear of abandonment. Thats a terrible thing to do to someone.

    2. Echo, mine would do similar things, though he only ignored me once and never disappeared for more than a few weeks. What he did do, though, was make me nervous about contacting him because his responses would be so curt, so I never did. I think I went months without initiating contact at all. The longest he ever disappeared was for 3 weeks and we were in different countries, but I cannot tell you how many times I thought it was over. This was all before I knew what he was. It is terribly abusive to abandon someone over and over, and make them feel like they don’t exist (that’s what the shelf is for, I now understand). I’m glad you finally got some answers.

      1. I didn’t feel like it was a shelving. We had an argument over his triangulation and I told him to go fuck himself. I immediately apologized but it fell on deaf ears. No amount of apologies, pleading, or anything else would get him to respond, either mean or nice. He wouldn’t tell me it was over and he wouldn’t talk to me to work things out either. I straight up told him it was torture. There were no comfort crumbs. I beat myself up for months over my “mistake” and my smart mouth.

        I assume that was disengagement rather than shelving and that’s just fine. It hurt then, but now I don’t care if I ever see or hear from him. People will continue to realize they’re better off without him, and that’s the really sad part.

      2. Echo, I also wounded/insulted mine (post escape). It was kind of funny because I said many horrible things to him at various points in our relationship and he never reacted to any of it. But the one time I teased him you would have thought I had shot him. I did apologize but I also told him his reaction was completely out of proportion to the offense. It seems to me that telling your narc to go fuck himself over triangulation is relatively mild. It is just an excuse for him to mess with you. Do not give it anymore thought. You did not do anything to push him away. He just took the opportunity to get more fuel via your apologies.

      3. Thank you SMH. That is validating to hear. And you’re totally right, it is very abusive for a person to be abandoned over and over. I sent him emails and texts/kiks, but I was also nervous about anything more than that. He always was very strict about phone calls and I would never show up in person. That’s way too much of a privacy invasion.

      4. Echo, I would never show up in person or call either, but more because he was so secretive at first and then he turned out to be married (still not sure if he was even separated when we met – that’s how sly he was). He only gave me his phone number six months ago because I told him I wouldn’t get back with him unless he did, and then I declined to get back with him anyway :). We always saw each other in the same place and never went anywhere. It was oddly comforting to me, though, as it became part of my routine and we got very good at subliminal communication. It was as if I was existing in a different dimension. Sometimes it would even give me euphoric highs (seriously even though there were no drugs involved). Was one of the weirdest experiences of my life but that is the part that makes me fear his reappearance.

        Anyway, I realize that everyone is not like me and that I have also been where you are, feeling kicked and abandoned over and over, feeling powerless. It takes time to get past it and even then it is two steps forward, one step back. But just realize you are not alone and most of us have had similar experiences. It wasn’t you. It was him.

    3. The only lesson to learn here is hard: if someone goes from seducing or being in a relationship —to pretending you’re a stranger, get away from them fast.

      Yes, that’s an abuser and they never cared about you, or anyone, they can’t care about themselves—they’re toxic.

      It’s necessary to develop a strong self-preservation mode. That’s what i’m working on here at this blog.

  30. Is ignoring messages always a manifestation of cold fury? Could it just be shelving? No comfort crumbs for you! (in Chinese accent, Soup Nazi style)

      1. It feels like ignoring, HG, because it feels like your existence is denied. The narc once needed you, wanted you, shared with you, confided in you, etc. and then it is all gone as if you ceased existing.

      2. I know, right IL? It’s like they don’t know you anymore. Exchanging pleasantries like acquaintances (if you happen to get a response at all). “I hope you are well.” Who TF are you talking to?

      3. Can shelving be a form of cold fury tho? Basically putting you on the shelf as a form of devalument or corrective measure. Very passive aggressive.

      4. You would be given a silent treatment as a corrective devaluation. If you respond favourably to that, the ST would end but you may still be on the shelf, albeit painted white. If you do not respond favourably to it, the ST remains in place which FEELS like shelving to the victim, but it actually isn’t because it is a silent treatment.

      5. I appreciate the fact that you give us answers HG. But shelving FEELS like ignoring to me. I know you said there is a difference? Well I continue to struggle with differentiating.

      6. HG ….But …it’s because there needs to be a wounding to the narcissist , right? Something has wounded him ….and any supply can wound him , or mainly the primary supply ?

      7. A narcissist can be wounded by any appliance, but the extent of the wounding will vary dependent on the position of the appliance in the fuel matrix.

      8. I am going to re-read that Shelf IPSS article again. I know you say that the being ignored is not really being ignored and it is a symptom of being on the shelf. But it still feels like one in the same to me.

        Will there be more articles to come about shelving? I hope so. Shelving and corrective devals. That is where I am at in narc land right now.

      9. FOTS
        I’m curious if you are willing to share. How long have you been in this “relationship”? Do you have somebody else or just waiting for him? You don’t have to answer if you don’t want to of course. I know these situations can drag on and on and wondered how long it has been. Hugs!
        MB

      10. MB,
        I do not mind answering. Almost 2 1/2 years in. I am a DLS though and I know it will never be more. A long distance DLS at that. I only see him 3-4 times a year. I go back and forth with wanting it to be more but also knowing my place. At our most recent reunion 3 weeks ago I asked him point blank “what are we?” And he said “we are friends but also lovers”. The last few months had been eggshells over correcting devals and on/off shelving. I got a bunch of apologies for past behavior, I was re-friended on social media and all of the bullshit of the last few months was pretty much “wiped clean”. I still get the ghosting and the comfort crumbs which kind of sucks. I find the less I pester the more pleasant he is but there are times when I need more of him and tend to pester more than usual. Each visit with him since I have read this blog has made so many things make sense in terms of studying and analyzing him. I am still having a hard time letting go and don’t want to. You asked so I am being honest. I know there are a few here in similar situation (not DLS but similar feelings as me and still have not cut ties). How about you? What is your story?

      11. Your honesty is refreshing FOTS. You have to be brave in front of HG and everybody here to admit you don’t want to cut ties. It is what it is and believe me, I get it. It’s easy to say GOSO when you are in danger, but not so easy when it’s a situation like this. It sounds like HGs work has helped you get a better handle on the fact that it will never be more. Just don’t let him keep you from living your own life.

        My story? There’s the B.H.G. story and the A.H.G. story. I prefer the latter…Narc supplements are like Doritos. I binge on them for the taste, not the nutrition.

      12. But ignoring can be a part of shelving? No answer without pushing for it and then benign crumbs of crumbs at last…then more ignoring. Pause button?

      13. If you are on the shelf and painted white you will not be ignored. You may not hear immediately from the narcissist (which you may perceive as being ignored because you have heightened demands for contact and begin to press too much).

      14. “If you are on the shelf and painted white you will not be ignored. You may not hear immediately from the narcissist (which you may perceive as being ignored because you have heightened demands for contact and begin to press too much).”

        Yeah this is pretty much where I am at. Heightened demands for contact with comfort crumbs.

      15. Thank you for not ignoring my question HG! No, really thank you. You’re the best. I like how you say “Heightened demands” ha! like possibly wanting to text more than one word per day? How about texting me first for once? I don’t want a kidney for Christ’s sake. Your “crumb” examples in the crumb article are feasts. Feasts! No, I learned my lesson about pushing a long time ago.

      16. This WP app is touchy. Not sure if my last reply was finished. Just in case it looks weird 😜

      17. HG, how does one respond favourably to a corrective devaluation in the form of a silent treatment? Can you please explain.

      18. It may be apologising, contacting the narcissist to do something together, providing positive fuel or a residual benefit. Bear in mind however

        1. You can never guarantee causing the narcissist to respond favourably; and
        2. The person is a narcissist so GOSO

        so don’t start trying to take steps in the hope of reducing the impact of CDs!

      19. Ty HG for your reply. Aside from the tactic of ignoring could shelving be a form of cold fury on its own? For instance if wounded they try to teach you a lesson by partially disengaging via a shelfing while engaging with their other sources.
        Theyre not flat out ignoring you but theyre partially removing themselves/changing the dynamics to show you how much you miss them and drive home the point they dont need you as much as you thought. That they arent engaging with you as much bc of what you did.

      20. Chihuahuamum, This is how I understand shelving (you are the sugar, he is the shelver – correct me if I am wrong, HG): it is like being finished with, say, the bag of sugar for now, so you put it back in the cupboard. You are not angry at the bag of sugar, you don’t need the bag of sugar, you are not ignoring the bag of sugar. You simply don’t think about the bag of sugar sitting there all on its lonesome in the dark cupboard. It is just there, waiting for when you need to refill the sugar dispenser you keep on the table. Could be in a week, could be in a month. Depends on how much sugar you need in your day to day life and whether you are getting it somewhere else.

      21. Thank you, HG. I was just coming back because something occurred to me. Mine would shelve me all the time (IPSS). But once he said, ‘I do think about you.’ I said ‘I know you do.’ I do think he did and I was aware of it. Is shelving really as thoughtless as it sounds? Or is it a deliberately manipulative tactic? The answer is probably here somewhere but I thought I’d put this with my sugar comment.

      22. It is not deliberately manipulative. It is putting one toy down and picking up another. It is the victim who PERCEVIES it as manipulative because they do not understand why it is happening, but to the narcissist it is NOT an act of manipulation, even if it seems that way.

      23. Thank God for small miracles! The shelving itself isn’t manipulation, but the crumbs ARE. Correct?

      24. Gotcha. So all the times I accused him of being manipulative and he denied it, it was really just the two of us inhabiting different planets. The sheer impossibility of having a ‘relationship’ with a narc – one in which two people ‘relate’ – is much clearer to me now, as is my confusion about whether he was obtuse or deliberately mean. Now I feel guilty!!

      25. Narcs treating other people like objects (the bag of sugar) must be part of the complex that includes mind-blindness – the inability to put oneself in another’s shoes. I am still of two minds (haha) about whether it is evil or not, but when you explain something to someone who is perfectly capable of grasping a logical argument (how would you feel if X, you don’t like it when X happens, so why would I?) and they continue to do the same thing, it definitely feels deliberate.

      26. SMH
        This is great because I understand both sides. We are objects and the narcissist is simply focused on another appliance. It is just the way he operates and it isn’t personal or manipulative; it is practical. It makes sense.

        This is an excellent lesson on shelving and CDs.

      27. I don’t know, K. I think we have divided opinions here and I am of two minds myself. But as I said elsewhere, when you tell someone they are doing something that hurts you that is simple to change and they continue to do it, isn’t that deliberately hurtful? Because they want to hurt you because it is fuel? HG does also say that narcs don’t want a calm and peaceful relationship because that isn’t enough fuel, so it makes sense that they would find your weaknesses and continue to pound at them. I was an IPSS who didn’t want anything more. Maybe mine went out of his way to drive me crazy because his ego was bruised that I wasn’t fighting for him and providing fuel. That is a logical interpretation too.

      28. SMH
        I am definitely on your side, if you can, try to look at it from their POV. Narcissists are wired to be solipsistic so we are invalidated; we don’t exist and their needs are paramount. Don’t forget; you are an object and your job is to function when he picks you up.

        You tell him that being ignored hurts and he gets fuel from that, also, he isn’t accountable to you; he can do as he pleases (superiority and control). He isn’t going to change because that would shut off the flow of fuel and jeopardize his survival. It would be like self-sabotage.

        From our POV it hurts like hell and it is deliberate; from his POV it is necessary and instinct. They are programmed to find your weaknesses and draw fuel.

      29. I totally get that, K, and I know you are on my side. Thanks! Mine was somewhat accountable to me because I was an IPSS and he dragged me into it. He demonstrated that he was capable of modifying his behavior when it suited him. He told a few whopper lies, so he is capable of deliberation. He plots and schemes. It is not all instinct. It is human creativity and agency at work. If he can engineer things to serve his purposes, he can modify them for mine. After all, he had to please a boss to make a decent living. He had to trick his IPPS into staying. He might not want to concede ground, but he is capable of it…that is all I am saying. He was not an automoton, even if I do think of him as a robot :-).

      30. My pleasure, SMH
        There is no doubt about it, calculation and planning is used by higher functioning narcissists, however, the narcissist isn’t engineered to serve anyone’s purpose but his own. He is self-serving. Those lies are his truths and, when he appears to modify his behavior (conceding ground), it is just another manipulation to keep his sources in place and the fuel lines open.

        His job and his boss is part of his facade. All secondary sources are usually kept in seduction permanently. Fury is capped and positive fuel is flowing so any perceived criticism is mitigated by all that positive fuel. Also, to maintain the facade he must display “good behavior” and that is all instinct; thoughtless. He is whiter than white and that is what his boss experiences.

        He can’t let his IPPS go until he has a suitable replacement so he “tricked her” by using a respite hoover to draw her back in or keep her in situ. That is instinct.

        He is human but most of what he does is shaped for the purposes of achieving what he requires and that is the Prime Aims and chief amongst them is fuel.

        He cannot modify his behavior for you because he just isn’t capable of doing so.

      31. Thanks for your thoughtful and articulate response, K. It makes my head spin. It seems counter-productive of the narc to make someone he says he wants (me) so irritated and crazy that the person pushes him away. You would think that if a narc wanted/needed fuel he would be serving himself better by focusing on maintaining positive fuel provisions. I understand about negative fuel and all of that, and I also understand about alternate sources, but a normal person has much smaller reserves of negative fuel than positive fuel. So again it all seems counter-productive, which is basically what I told him – that he had it all ass backwards.

        He showed me on many occasions that he was capable of behaving differently. I saw this during the period when I was deciding whether to return to him (I didn’t). I watched him closely as we interacted and I waited it out. Sure enough, within 10 days his normal behavioral pattern reemerged. That is when I cut the cord…I also saw another side of him post escape when he spent a month hoovering me. He was acting in a way he never had before (this was my ‘alt-wife’ period with him) and talking to me about things he had never talked to me about. It was still narc-ish (all about him) but his vocabulary certainly expanded. I guess he was just not capable of sustaining any of it but he certainly was capable of modifying his behavior, at least temporarily. This brings me back to my previous points about deliberately hurtful actions for control vs unthinking ones. I am still on the fence about it!!

      32. You are welcome SMH
        I completely understand. Their behavior definitely seems counterproductive from out POV.

        His behavior changes are most likely manipulations to hoover you back and the other modifications you noticed may have been used to get either positive or negative fuel. Contrast is very important.

        If you have already read these articles, when you have time, reread them again. Repetition is very helpful and eventually it all starts to make sense.

        https://narcsite.com/2016/10/24/toxic-logic/https://narcsite.com/2017/07/14/contrariwise-4/

      33. SMH
        Great analogy! I like to imagine all those neglected bags of sugar drawing hordes of ants and the narcs getting a nasty shock when they finally get around to opening those cupboard doors again!

      34. LOL Windstorm. But he would just replace them with new ones, we know that.

      35. SMH
        Maybe, but have you ever had ants infest a cabinet? It’s a monumental mess to clean up and then a constant threat they will return. Maybe it’s more a rural problem where ants are everywhere. I’ve had everything in a cabinet from mice, snakes, lizards, spiders – but nothing tops ants for mess and quickness in contaminating everything.

        I’ll still enjoy my mental image of the narc seeing thousands of ants all over the sugar and then the horror of realizing they had spread to everything else in the cabinet. Ha, ha! Let him try putting another open bag of sugar in there again!

      36. Very good, SMH!

        “Sugar, ah honey honey
        You are my candy girl
        And you got me wanting you”

      37. SMH
        You would be surprised at how well compartmentalization works and your sugar analogy was an awesome way to explain it.

      38. Oh I am not suprised at all K (my words were to the song lyrics). I was astonished at the way mine could compartmentalize. I just did not know what it was for the longest time. The first thing I ever looked up was hot and cold. No one had ever treated me that way. Live and learn!!

      39. Very interesting conversation about shelfing. I liked your explanation SMH, it makes sense.

      40. I’m not 100% convinced that it is accurate, Lilly, because, you know, feelings! Emotions! Empathy! But as HG agrees, I guess it is accurate. Still hard to convince myself that someone could objectify someone else to such an extent that they really are out of sight, out of mind.

      41. Chihuahuamum,
        I may have not understood, but I thought shelving was different from corrective devaluation because in shelving they have sort of forgotten we even exist. They are so totally focused on their other “toys” we are not even in their mind. That’s why if we text them, they will often reply because we have brought ourselves back into their notice. Whereas in corrective devaluation, they don’t reply to texts.

        In shelving they’re not trying to teach us anything. They’re just not thinking about us.

      42. Chihuahuamum,
        Ha, ha! Guess my last comment seems totally off the wall! Don’t know how I got onto “corrective devaluation”, but just exchange that term with cold fury and the answer is the same. In shelving they’re not trying to punish us or express anything, they’ve just temporarily forgotten us.

      43. HG
        Can jealousy, that my child is doing better than Your child in School or sports, etc. make a Narc injured and he/she can sulk for sometime to show his anger or hurt ego. And then come back when jealousy has settled down with time or diversion. I noticed that he would not answer me for a day or two when I would tell him about my kids achievements. After that I stopped telling him about them. Just to start the communication again, I would send him a joke and then he would respond back as if nothing has happened.

      44. Ty HG, smh and windstorm…i get what youre saying and can see how itd apply but where its felt intentional and like a punishment is the fact the shelving would coincide with a rocky patch in the relationship and he would bring up things id confided in him related that he knew would be hurtful so hed be indirectly sending the message he knew exactly what he was doing. A few times i called him out on it and disengaged from him and said to him friendship only may be a better option. Once i did the apologies and acting like he wasnt aware of what he was doing and that he wanted to be like we were again would commence aka the mini golden period restart of narc cycle.
        Im not entirely convinced the shelving was just solely due to boredom but i do agree he was probably busy with someone else. He knew what he was doing and he knew how to hurt me most based on me confiding certain things to him. I felt it was an intentional passive aggressive punishment on his part for me confronting him on certain occasions. Its hard to say tho maybe it was a combination of the two.
        His indirectly saying things to show me he was deliberately shelving me i take as a smug way to say im im control of you emotionally. He wasnt tho bc id only take it so long then start to walk.

      45. I’m not entirely convinced either, Chihuahuamum. If you explain to someone that they are doing something hurtful, yet they keep on doing it, at some point it has to be deliberate. But that is why I suddenly realized that mine had a mental illness (and this was post-escape, when I too was trying to be ‘friends’). I think my attraction to him took a nosedive that day…you need to get some distance if you can.

      46. SMH,
        “If you explain to someone that they are doing something hurtful, yet they keep on doing it, at some point it has to be deliberate.”

        I agree that it is deliberate, but not deliberately meant to be hurtful. Over the years there have often been things my narcs were doing – with no intention of hurting me – but they hurt me all the same. When I would explain how what they were doing was hurting me, they would look at me like I was crazy, think about it for a few seconds and say something like, “That’s just stupid. This doesn’t hurt you. If it does, then there’s just something wrong with you.” There’s no telling how many times I’ve heard, “Well it shouldn’t have hurt.” It’s like if they cant understand it, it’s not real.

      47. Windstorm, I can see your perspective but I’m undecided. What yours says sounds like gaslighting to me. I don’t think any of these guys could ever have been with another woman without hearing the same things. Mine used to say ‘I don’t want to upset/hurt you with X behavior.’ And I would be like, well don’t then, you dumb fuck. I would explain over and over how to make things simple – how to be happy, how to have fun. He obviously knew that his behavior was upsetting. I am not that different from his IPPS. I am not that different from any other woman he has ever been with. He knows what he does. He might not know why he does it, but it doesn’t take a genius to stop doing something that upsets someone you are supposed to be supporting and who is supporting you. Maybe they cannot help themselves so it is somewhere in between deliberatetely hurtful and not…it is like what a toddler does.

      48. SMH
        What you are describing sounds very different from what I was thinking. You may be describing gaslighting. The examples I was thinking of I absolutely knew they were not meant to hurt me. They were not aimed at me. The narcs would even be surprised when I’d get upset. Definitely not the same as narc manipulations.

        Narcs gaslight and do all kinds of deliberate, hurtful things. My point was that sometimes what they do may be hurtful and they just don’t believe us when we say it is, because they don’t understand why it hurts us. They just dismiss it as us being ridiculous.

      49. I know exactly what you mean by this, WS! There’s no malice with it… they just look at you like you’re some precious kitten who tied yourself up in your own ball of yarn.

      50. Yes, Caroline!
        You’ve hit on the important difference – there’s no malice with it! They just honest to God don’t care or don’t understand how you feel so they give it no significance. That’s why they may do it over and over. They want to do whatever it is and to them your upset is just silly. But there is no malice involved!

      51. Hi Windstorm, Yes, some things were completely innocent – if downright weird :-). His quirkiness didn’t bother me. The behavioral patterns that caused anxiety did. He’d talk me down and disarm me with something that made borderline sense until the next time. I’ve forgotten about it now but it was a constant cycle. He was somewhat aware of his emotional limitations but my point was more that if you say that something bothers you, it is not up to them to insist that you are overreacting or being ridiculous. It doesn’t matter if they understand where you are coming from or not. Denying or questioning your reality by accusing you of being ridiculous is gaslighting.

        Say a friend was perpetually late and I mentioned that I was bothered because I had other things to do, so they made me late for everything else, yet they told me I was being ridiculous because they tell time by the sun and not by the clock, which is just a social construct anyway. Well, bye bye friend. It’s not that I mind if they tell time by the sun. It’s not even that I disagree with the concept of clocks as social constructs. But I do mind that they are utterly DISMISSIVE of the fact that I use clocks!!

      52. SMH
        I like your late friend example. They neither understand nor care about your upset at being late. They’re not being late deliberately to get you angry and gain fuel, they are just totally dismissive of your feelings.

        I don’t consider this gaslighting. They’re not trying to make you feel crazy. They’re not trying to confuse you. They just don’t care, or possibly don’t even understand how you feel. What you think is just totally unimportant to them.

      53. Hi Windstorm, You are right. I thought after I posted it that it wasn’t gaslighting. I’d never even heard the term gaslighting until a year or so ago and I’ve had a problem understanding it. I know where it comes from, I’ve seen examples, I’ve read about it, but I don’t completely get it and I’ve no idea if my narc was capable of it because it seems that it would take an awful lot of self-control and plotting. He was capable of plotting to a certain degree, but I’m not sure how much of his behavior was deliberate or meant to make me feel crazy as opposed to just being the way he was in the world.

      54. SMH
        Dont feel bad that you dont have first-hand knowledge about gaslighting! That’s definitely a good thing!

        My exhusband gaslights a lot. It used to be more malicious and he wouldn’t admit to it when we were young, and it could make my life a living hell. Nowadays he does it just for fun – like playing a game. (That is at least with me it’s like a game. He probably still uses it maliciously at work and with people who don’t know him as well.)

        He loves mind games, but what he loves most is to be appreciated for winning them. That’s one of my functions in our relationship, to see thru his machinations of myself and others and let him know (usually after initially being fooled of course). I have a look I give him or I’ll outright ask him if he’s done whatever I suspect, and he will look at me and smile.

        That’s totally changed the dynamic for me. It’s no longer confidence-shattering abuse, but just him playing his silly games. But then I don’t live with him and I stay painted white in his mind. If we have to be together 24/7 for more than about 3 days it’s starts to get ugly fast. Lol!

      55. Yeah, Windstorm, mine was not malicious that way. The problems related more to his behavior than to anything he said. We would match wits but only around certain topics. He was very bright but in very specific ways. I think he felt intellectually inferior to me. Anyway, I am glad you can match wits and see another side of it now. Don’t spend more than 3 days with your ex!

      56. WS and SMH
        I was gas lighted my entire childhood and I had no idea what was going on. I thought everyone was nuts. Now that I am here I am learning all the ways you can get gas lighted.

      57. WS
        I read on Exposed-5 further ways to flush out the narc that your daughter is expecting baby no. 5 in February. Congratulations! She is going to be one busy Mama! Are you planning to visit and help out?

      58. K
        I’m sure I’ll be there in February and probably stay a couple of weeks. She doesn’t need me as much anymore. She has a chain system going on. Her oldest just turned 6 and 4 and she’s trained them to watch the younger ones and to fetch things for her. Of course it’s still useful with a newborn to have an extra adult – especially if they don’t sleep well. We’ll see.

      59. WS
        I am happy to read that she has an efficient chain system, however, it is nice to know that you will be visiting because all new mothers need some help and lack of sleep is never a good thing.

      60. K
        True. I may not be very mobile, but I can sit and rock a baby, keep the dishes washed let them have some breaks. 😊

      61. WS
        And that makes all the difference in the world! You are a mother who loves her daughter and that is a beautiful thing.

      62. “Mine would shelve me all the time (IPSS). But once he said, ‘I do think about you.’ I said ‘I know you do.’ I do think he did and I was aware of it.”

        SMH….I can totally relate to this. I hear the same stuff from my MRN and I am an IPSS (DLS but long distance).

      63. Mine was an mid-ranger and long distance much of the time too, FOTS, though I was not a DLS (if I understand that correctly). I live in two countries and would leave for months on end. He travelled a lot so he’d be gone more often than not.

        From what I’ve read of what you’ve written, maybe it was/is the same guy! (Only half kidding here.)

        When yours says he is ‘busy’ he is triangulating – setting you up to compete for his attention. He is trying to get you worked up. That doesn’t mean he has no affection for you but their needs are different from ours.

        I would have happily stayed with mine even l-d (he’s moved now) and even as an IPSS had he been more normal, but I got tired of being played all the time. It was only post-escape, however, that I found this site and suddenly saw him for what he was.

      64. Hi smh…theres continuing to do it bc it suits their needs and theres deliberate to hurt you while carrying on with another source. Its like hitting two birds with one stone. He can punish me with a form of shelving while grooming and investing energy in other sources. Enjoying the newness while taking a break from aspects of our relationship.
        The reason i say this is hes brought up hurtful things to me while ive been shelved to let me know hes aware of what hes doing. Its also a form of gaslighting. Making you stew over where theyre at. Mind games.
        I dont think shelving it entirely cold fury bc it is used as a way of recycling and keeping sources fresh but i do think it can be used as a form of passive aggressive punishment.
        My narcs never ignored me flat out or been absent but he has shelved me intimately and poked fun about it indirectly. Thats deliberate and the fact its coincided with conflict or rocky patches in the relationship makes me think hes done it to get back at me.
        The jokes on him tho bc now hes hot and heavy again and im not as into him as i used to be. The only reason i stay is the friendship/companion element. I fake being into it when that ship sailed during his on and off again shelving.
        Narcs destroy.

      65. Yep / and i am having fun and spending my shelving energy for other man.

      66. I think you’re right, Chihuahuamum. I just told Windstorm I thought it was gaslighting before I saw your comment. There were a lot of things mine did too that were obviously deliberate (some not so much) because I had asked him not to do them, and he isn’t dumb. I escaped and then tried to be friends but it was impossible because he was out to punish me one way or another.

        Mine also lied for months after we met so that is how I know he is perfectly capable of some really messed up and quite deliberate behavior. He also continued to lie to the IPPS for two years. Just doing to me the flip side of what he was doing to her. I told him I didn’t feel special :-)! Specially abused or specially shelved or specially admired. He treated everyone the same way.

      67. This string on shelving vs cold fury is very interesting and triggering me today.

        My narc did much more of this behavior once he knew how much it bothered me. We once had a conversation about our parents and I confided that I have abandonment issues (thanks to narc mom) that I’d worked on in therapy. This was prior to any real devaluation in our relationship. That very same day I royally ignited his fury and on came the silent treatments, cold shoulders, obviously being vague to try and make me stew about his state of mind (“does he still want me?” “is he still attracted to me?” “is he talking to ten other women instead of me?”), prior warning silent treatments etc.

        His classic move was to make it obvious that he had been on our preferred messaging app but not read my message. Me: “Who is he texting instead of texting me back!!” Of course, I rarely let on to him that I was obsessing like that, but its soooo very uncharacteristic of me to be so insecure, its sickening what he did to me over time. I told him once near the end when I was getting so sick of it, “You’re the only person in the world who can make me feel insecure, pretty impressive since I’m not an insecure person. I’m over it.” I guess that was probably like winning to him…and the last warning bell in my head that he is NO GOOD.

        I struggle with whether he is a typical MMRN/UMRN or a Greater who just knew the cold would work better on me than heat. I’d much rather have a drag out fight with shouting and insults than being ignored, he knew this.

        My NC is becoming tenuous, I miss him despite all the bullshit and the bad vibes. I was long distance, I can’t imagine what this would feel like in person as long standing IPPS….relying on my narcissistic trait of pride to see me through.

        When he hoovers, and I think he will before too long because he is smart enough to realize that if he waits too long I’ll be checked out, I have no idea how I will respond. Some days I convince myself that now that I know all about this, I’ll be able to avoid so much hurt and obsession over every little word and gesture. Then other days I come back to knowing I don’t matter, I was disposable, he is not really sexually attracted to me, etc. and it makes me nauseated to think that I still kinda want to go back. Just being honest with myself here, sometimes it helps.

        See how I just called him NO GOOD, then two paragraphs later I’m talking about giving in to the hoover….eye roll

      68. Hi supernova… your narc sounds a lot like mine and i too confided in him certain abandonment issues. Hes used that tool many times but he also knows if he pushes that area too far id walk away permanently. Thats where hes kept me hooked in the fact hes always been there and has never disappeared. This is a weakness on my part and an area i need to work on. Being ok alone. Being self sufficient. Very much the weaknesses also of narcs and basically codependancy on both victim and narc.
        Dont be hard on yourself youve illustrated logical thinking(hes no good) vs emotional thinking(i miss him and may want to go back). Its important to see youre super vulnerable bc of the emotional thinking still being there and have rock solid no contact in place. Aside from living on a deserted island no contact lol you should be proud youve gone no contact bc that step is super difficult to many! Pat yourself on the back and take it one day at a time. If you have weak moments distract and stay super busy!!! All the best 🤗

      69. I healed my fear of abandonment with hypnosis therapy. It really worked / so much that now the concept of abandonment is estranged to me. I can’t conceptualise that one can abandon another one .
        So the downside is that guys I am seeing now think I do t care enough about them .
        Before I was doing all those things not because I loved them – but because I was fearing they would abandon me. Now I don’t do much.

        That did not took care of the infection with actual narc – I am not afraid he will abandon me – I am intoxicated by him and want more of more and more alll the time . Although I have not acted that way since I broke NC. I have kept my remote position and he is not pushing to deshelve or take me back .

        Now I need to plan detox – but I still want to drink his fuel. Shit. Pathetic .

      70. That’s really interesting, about the hypnosis, OMJ. I’ve actually wondered how hypnosis would work on a *narcissist* before… probably wouldn’t, as they’d just tell themselves, “I’m so above this.” lol

        What would you say makes you feel so “intoxicated” with your narcissist? Can you pinpoint, or just an overall feeling? I’ve always found the narcissist extremely interesting, no doubt about it (even when he’s being a maniac, he’s not a boring maniac)…

        Actually, now that I think about it, it’s pretty weird how they’re never boring. It’s not like we’re on a continual hang-gliding experience with them – not like they’re entertaining us 24/7. Why the heck are they never boring? I can’t recall a single time I felt bored with the narcissist.

      71. Caroline
        Never bored with your narcissist?!? Not even when you’re sitting in a present silent treatment for hours? Or when you’d like to go do something with him and all he does is sit playing with his computer or iPhone? When you’re ready for bed but he’s glued for hours watching some old movie? Ha, ha, I’m just teasing.

        I know what you mean, and maybe if you never actually lived with them that could be true, because they can really be very interesting and a lot of fun in their never ending quest for fuel. But if you’re around them enough, you see how boring they can be.

        As to the hypnosis – my mother in law hassled my FIL (a greater narc) to quit smoking for years. He tried everything under the sun to quit, but nothing ever worked. He tried hypnosis, too, but it didn’t work at all on him. The guy couldn’t hypnotize him at all. Just made my FIL laugh!

      72. LOL, WS…he never did those things in your first paragraph, but I never lived with him (was just his GF for 3 years), so that probably explains it!

        He told one of my girlfriends that he was “addicted” to me (she thought that was just fabulous — huh?? Ugh, I knew that wasn’t good). I told her I found him “fascinating.” That was 2.5 years into the relationship…All kinds of messed up.

        Boredom would have nuked the whole thing. Where’s the boring boredom of boringness when you need it?

      73. The real professional of hypnosis won’t work on personality disorder. Some use EMDR ( eye movement) tonwork on trauma. I have done it and it has helped for my childhood trauma.
        Hypnosis requires trust – so the narc don’t have that and they would probably use it to manipulate.
        Behaviorale therapy seems to work the most on personality disorders . Although I am not a specialist .
        My infection is energetic – that flow – that elevtricity- the thrill – the drug – feeling alive.
        I know I can live well without it – but when I am close to it – It is like a magnet.

      74. Caroline
        Hey, I’m out with my exhusband and I asked him why he thought hypnotism didn’t work with narcs. His opinion is that hypnotism only works (if it works at all) with people who have layered personalities and who actually want it to work. In his opinion, narcs are neither. He thinks narcs personalities are much simpler and less nuanced than other people. He also is very skeptical that hypnosis really works with anyone. He equated it with snake oil salesmen. – Thought I’d share his opinion.

      75. Trust and certain types of individuals works well in hypnosis and with the right therapist . Mine was master Neurolinguistic programmation and master Hypnosis. He used both techniques . He trains opera singer and performers as well.

        It did really work with me / but I am very nerdy and dedicated when I do a therapy and i am a good subject – I have trust .

        Narcs have disorder personalities – that cannot be healed and any serious hypnosis specialists won’t even try or go there .

      76. Interesting… very interesting. Thanks for asking, WS!

        I was hypnotized as a child, to help a police department with a license plate number. The thing I remember the most about that was a lead-up question I was asked. I was told to answer a string of questions with just a “yes” or “no” answer.

        So when I was asked, “Are you afraid of deep waters?”, it got weird, because I was so relaxed (a warm, easy feeling) — yet felt inwardly conflicted… I especially loved swimming and the ocean…but I kept picturing deep, dark water, so I was thinking: “I really love the ocean… but you can drown in it, and the darkest part is scary… so I can’t answer.”

        I remember opening my mouth 3-4 times to answer, but then stopping because I couldn’t choose “yes” or “no.” I was told: “It’s okay, honey. You don’t have to answer. We’ll move on.”

        I remember thinking I had to figure out the absolute truth to the water question, or I wouldn’t be able to help about the license plate, but I also couldn’t fight moving on to the next question because I was so “flowy.”

        So I always think of hypnosis as “go with the flow.” You’re alert, but it feels like you’re floating easily along. In my case, as a child, it was effective.

      77. Chihuahuamum,
        Thanks for your encouragement! We seem to have some similarities in our situations and background mindset. I’m also married with kids and Narc is an affair partner. I know yours has been longstanding and I managed to stay in it for three years.

        I also agree with some of your comments here that shelving can be like a form of punishment. I typically received a solid shelving after getting the stranger zone weirdness for a time. I eventually started to see this pattern and would balk against it. So when he would start acting strange, I would preventatively say something like “If you’re about to cut contact, think seriously about it, because if you do, I’m gone forever.” He typically softened his approach after that, but of course punished me later since he hated me trying to control and threatening to leave. This last time I just really made him mad by essentially saying I was leaving because I couldn’t sit around knowing he was looking for other affair partners (he was back on Ashley Madison, or so he said). Then wounded repeatedly with neutral comments when he gave me some crumbs…leading to him blocking me without warning.

        I can also relate to what you say about wanting the friendship and companionship aspect. Ultimately, that is what I miss, just talking and joking around and whatnot. Not gonna lie I liked the sex, but after the initial seduction/binding process he never really gave me the good stuff again haha. I can see what you mean about the sexual aspect being less than thrilling after knowing all we can learn here.

        Due to my childhood issues, the ability of this man to walk away from me, never speak to me, never see my body again, without explanation or any care whatsoever is somewhat devastating.I can logically say that its the disorder, but emotionally its a different story.

        I feel differently than some here because I do think I know some real things about him and got some real statements and he let me see under the mask many times. But I also knew him very well when we were young before he would have finessed his techniques….I could tell a lot of times when he was posturing due to this. He seemed to both relish this as well as hate it at the same time.

      78. I really hope wordpress one day makes it so you can reply directly to any comment.

        Hi supernova DE….its eerie how similiar our situations are! Yes the companionship and friendship are what keep me hanging on. I do realise in my case its very codependant. I do have friends but its different with him. Hes been there day in and day out for 8 yrs. It scares me to say that bc it makes me realise how far gone i am. It does help reading other victims stories and knowing if they are resiliant and able to mourn the loss of what was once than i can.
        I agree there are parts to my narc as well that are genuine and real. I know this to be true. Every narc is different and the abuse differing severities.
        We are still sexual but after experiencing the shelving intimately on and off its burst the attraction bubble bc that part feels more like a tool than the exciting two way attraction it once was or thought was. I feel hes attracted to me but that the sex is more a hook and gratification when he wants it and not about both of us. He does try to satisfy me but it still feels fake.
        If we never had sex again id still want him in my life. It sounds ridiculous but despite his narcissistic ways i see the side of him that i enjoy. The chats we have. Sharing what ive bought or done that day. Our laughs. Its not all put on and if it is he deserves an academy award! I enjoy his company. I just dont enjoy the mind games. Ive found theyve diminished quite a bit the last few years but his mask slips still and i see ugliness under how he provokes people or his political beliefs. I try to change the subject. I never agree bc thatd be giving up who i am and ive done that enough over the years.
        The shelving isnt a full shelf just more or less intimate well go a couple wks without talking or being intimate then he will be back into it. I think in the past its been to punish me but i do think its also bc hes got someone else and trying to do a balancing act and conserving energy.
        Im at the point im ok if its only friendship. Id be sad to lose that bc its become a big part of my life.
        On the flip side im trying to reconnect with my hubby in the friendship dept. By being involved with my narc its taken away from our bond. There were problems before and thats what made me vulnerable to the affair. I wont blame it all on the marriage tho bc i now know more about myself and can see how damaged i was before i married coming from a childhood of narcissism.
        You sound like a strong woman hold onto your belief in your strength and take it hour by hour if you have to. Youll get there!

      79. Hi Chihuahuamum! You get the option to reply to any comment if you have all new posts and comments sent to your email that you use associated with your WP account. To activate, you go under Manage Settings and hit the toggle switch to have all new comments notified to you “instantly” to your email. It’s where I’ve always followed the blog and can reply to any individual. Maybe that will help? 😊

      80. Hi clarece…ty for that info. Ive not used my wordpress acct. Other than for here. Ill log on and try it out 🙂

      81. I use the WordPress app on my iPhone. You can set up notifications. Yes, you get the bell and you can reply to any comment you wish. I’m sure they have an app for Android too if you don’t have iPhone.

  31. I have experienced all of these, but not from the same narcissist. My exhusband always came home and never sulked, but he’s done all the others. My mother did all of them except not come home. And all three of the teenage narcs I’ve had in my care have not come home, one for multiple days.

    1. Hi can I put another slant on the conversations here and ask:
      Are any of you now, since your narc experiences, seeing a non Narc and if so how does it make you feel?
      Do you feel relieved at the normality or bored.
      Are you caught in such such a victim mindset that you cannot enjoy peaceful happiness as you should?
      Do you think you might put off a normal potential partner by being unable to resist talking about your past experiences?
      We seem to need to keep talking about our past experiences and I wonder why?
      Are you currently in a normal relationship but need to talk about your ex Narc to either heal or help others? certainly that’s a way to feel it was worth our suffering that we can learn and help others.
      Do you feel privileged now to have the love of a decent person?
      I’m with a new guy now and he’s lovely but still I feel agitation about my ex Narc and it drives me mad. I hate him now for the pain he caused me with the lies and cruelty, so I can’t surely love him and all I want to do is be able to talk about him and feel nothing but there is always that sense of longing, be it mild, that wont go away and I fear it never will.
      Not sure if I should just come off this site to try to put him out my mind.
      I thought the best thing was to keep working through it and eventually the desensitizing would give way to indifference but not the case yet.
      Much less painful but still bouts of hatred and crying for what I thought I’d had.
      Can any of you offer any advice or similar experiences, I hope your experiences of the recovery journey are better than mine, I feel such a prat at times as many of you I have read have have had it much tougher than me I know I lack strength.

      1. Wow, Lynn that’s a lot of questions! I’ll try to answer
        1. Never dated anyone other than my exhusband
        2. I very much enjoy peaceful happiness most every day. I enjoy and am relieved by normality. Normal people don’t bore me, but I am far away happiest alone in nature. I do not have a victim mindset.
        3. I was too burned by my 30 year marriage to ever risk giving that type of power over me to another man. If I had have tried another relationship I’d have certainly told him about my past. I think that would only be honest in the interest of full disclosure. My past has scarred me permanently in many ways and it would not be fair to hide that from a partner, in my opinion.
        4. If we spent years in a harmful relationship/relationships we can be permanently scarred. I find it is helpful to talk to caring others about my past. It helps me know that it wasnt just me being inferior or crazy.
        5. I do feel privileged now to have the love and friendship of several very dear friends and my children.
        6. I wouldn’t be talking repeatedly about your past pain with your new guy. You may overwhelm him. Talk to a therapist or friends who have had similar experiences.
        7. I agree that the best thing is probably to keep working thru it. I don’t know how long since you left your narc, but in my experience it takes 2-4 years to get beyond the anger and pain of even a fairly short relationship. It took me a full 10 years after I left my exhusband before I could think about specific really hurtful things he did and not be able to hear the blood pounding in my ears from my blood pressure shooting up.

        My advice is to stay here reading and learning. Find a good therapist who understands narcissism and begin some cognitive therapies to help you focus on yourself and your own healing.
        Good luck, dear. I’ll be praying for you and sending you positive energy. Don’t give up. It will get better! ⚡️⚡️⚡️❤️⚡️⚡️⚡️

      2. Lynn, I tried seeing other men during my narc years but the only one who sustained my interest was another narc, so I hear you. How much time did you leave between narc and normal? Maybe you need to take a break to get past the narc and settle yourself back down. I don’t know how it’s done other than just waiting it out because it takes time to get over an addiction, be satisfied without the drug, and enjoy normal again. That is what I am doing now and I slowly find myself regaining interest in ‘regular’ people, regular activities, a regular schedule and the things I used to enjoy pre-narc. My life is really quite rich without the narc but it did take awhile to get that life back. Sorry I cannot offer more, but I hope this helps.

      3. I asked that question already will be happy to se the answers . I ditched all the new narcs quite rapidely. Now the nice guy – I meet them but I can’t let go and bond with them – I have a big barrier / there is one tonight who was nicely texting and inviting me for tomorrow and I canceled – I canceled another one yesterday – I think I need to stop dating but then I am afraid to be too close to my narc.
        I am I am vulnerable to him / so I use other guys to distance myself / but then after 2-3 dates – if I have not ditched them because they are Narcs – I get bored .
        Grrrrrrr apparently we need to date. About 30 to meet me right guy … I love to be alone – more and more – so I don’t know why the hell i am dating … so confused … by me … :)))

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