How Long Can You Resist



Can you hear me knocking? Open the door and let me in? I know you want to. It is only me. You know me. You know me better than anybody else. Come on, I know you are thinking about me. That is what happens. I am on your mind and in your thoughts. I am whirling around in that messed-up mind of yours. It is messed up. I didn’t do it. I didn’t do anything wrong. I never do. It was a real state before I even appeared. I just took advantage. But look, that is in the past and we don’t need to talk about the past (expect I suppose when it suits me). I know you want to hear my voice again don’t you? You miss hearing me. You miss those long conversations on the telephone that we used to have, two hours or more where there was never a lull. I know you remember them. I know you keep looking at your ‘phone hoping that it will ring and that it will be me. I know you feel a phantom buzz when you have stashed your phone on your person and you keep pulling it from your pocket and checking. You tell your friends that your mother needs to speak to you, just so they won’t groan or roll their eyes at you for wanting it to be me. I know you are itching to call me. Go on, why don’t you? You can speak to me again and it will be just like before, all of the wonderful stuff. I will reinstate it in an instant because look, I have had a lot on, I have been tired, I have been worried and so on and so forth blah blah blah. I will trot anything out because once you see me smiling at you, you won’t be listening any more.

No, you will be thinking back to that kiss as we stood in that park with the sound of the breeze through the autumnal trees. That first kiss after the days of flirting through text and call. That magical, marvellous, mesmeric kiss. The first of a million. One in a million. I know you close your eyes and stand in that park and allow yourself to be taken back to that time a year ago. That day when we both drove there and met beneath the towering trees, the September sunshine still warm and I stood there, my magnetic smile on display as you half-ran towards me and I took you in my arms and then we kissed. Imagine doing that again? Oh you have of course. A thousand times.

Send me a text. You may as well. I will answer you and I will put a kiss on the end, just to tempt you. I know your heart will surge when you see that and all thoughts of staying away from me will begin to evaporate on seeing that. Text me. Just one text. It is easy enough. I know you haven’t deleted my number despite the promises you have made to do so. You just could not bring yourself to do it.

Call me. Ring me up and tell me what a bastard I am. Go on. Unleash that anger. Let it out. How many times have you sobbed to your friends about what I did to you? What a cruel and heartless bastard I am. I do not deserve you do I? No, but I deserve being told what I have done to you. You need to get it off your chest don’t you? You should. Go on, just press that button and I will answer you and you can let rip at me. Hey, even better, why not suggest we meet up and then you can have that show down that you have always envisaged. I know you have thought through all the things you have wanted to say to me but feel that I prevented you from saying when I just disappeared and then ignored your frantic attempts to get in touch with me. Tell me how broken I left you. Tell me how your friends hate me too. Tell me how your brother is going to batter me. Go on, I know that anger is still raging through you and you need to let it out. Surely after everything you have put up with you are entitled to one last hurrah?

Make that call late at night. I know you are lying in the dark thinking about me, hands entwined around the shirt I left which still smells of my scent. You know you ought to throw it away or burn it but you just cannot do it can you? You still want that connection. You still want to be able to inhale my fragrance and somehow relish the agonised joy as your mind is flooded with my memory. It is a lonely place now that bed isn’t it? Why not send me a text and we can exchange some saucy messages? Rekindle that fire again. It will make you feel better. I might even be tempted to come and see you and take you in your bed once again and let you experience the magic that I possess. The sex was brilliant wasn’t it? I know you cannot lie about that. I have heard what you have said to people about how you hate me but the sex was off the charts. Let’s do it again. Why not? It will make you feel so much better. Just text me, ring me, message me. You just have to reach out because I know you are dying to.

You may as well flick through those pictures again and smile with regret and longing as they evoke all those momentous times from when we were happy together. So many pictures, so many smiles. Have a look at my Facebook profile again. I did not block you. I would not do that. I want you to see how I am doing. Those messages are for you by the way. I am sure that the cryptic comments that I have posted with those pictures will have been picked up on by you and considered and reflected on. Those were for you. I wanted you to know how much I am missing you and you need your daily fix of stalking my social media. Yes, there was somebody else and I know you will have seen and been distraught to know that she was now receiving my love, my perfect love. How that must have burned inside of you as you realised that somebody else was now the recipient. I knew you would but don’t worry, she isn’t a patch on you so why don’t you come and see me and we can start it all again. I know you want to.

Come and see me. Help me. You are the only one who truly knows me. You know more about me than anybody else. The others, huh, they meant nothing to me. They were aberrations but you, you are the real deal. I love you still. I always have. Just come and see me and I will prove it to you. I will make the changes you want me to do and I know you believe in me. You see the good in me don’t you, you are the one who can let it out and help me. Please help me. I just need to be fixed and you are the one with the tools to do it. There is only you. Please don’t let me down. I need you. I will change. I will be better. I promise. Just come and see me and give me the chance to show you. That is only fair isn’t it? You are a fair person, I know you are, that is why I love you so much.

Come on, just get in touch with me and all this pain can go away. There is no need for it. You just need to press those buttons, dial that number or best of all just turn up. Imagine how romantic it will be. You turning up unexpectedly (but not really) in the rain and I sweep you into my arms again and everything will be good and golden and great once again. Do it. Do it. Give me the dressing down. Come to bed with me. Kiss me again. Tell me how you feel. Offer me forgiveness. Let me know what has happened to you. Tell me. Tell me. Tell me. Do it. Do it. Get in touch. Reach out. Stop the pain. End the hurt. Bring back the joy. Resurrect us. Ignite the passion. Let love reign. Do it. You can do it. I believe in you. End this agony. Let it go. Berate me. Love me. Chastise me. Fuck me. Hate me. Contact me. Contact me. Contact me.

I can hear my ‘phone ringing.

118 thoughts on “How Long Can You Resist

  1. Presque Vu says:

    I admit it. I’m struggling. He.just.won’t stop.
    I got good at not missing him!!
    But he’s hoovering big time, and last night my eldest son said that there was a random man outside my house picking cherries from the tree across the road in the pitch black at 11:30 when his friend dropped him off. My eldest is visiting but leaves tomorrow and my other son is away with friends for the week. I’m feeling very vulnerable but the rage is building!

    I almost feel like confronting him, but I read this, he’d love the fuel.

    I keep thinking I can do this without speaking to HG, I’ve got this, I can do this, I’ve done nearly 9 months, I am strong.
    But maybe I need the consultation after all. Must keep moving forwards.

  2. tigerchelle78 says:

    Depends who it is that’s asking……

  3. Presque vu says:

    I used to lay here unable to sleep without him, just getting the days blessing that we were on fire. But hand on heart I no longer miss him, I love the peace and the still of the night far much more. Contact you I fucking won’t.

  4. Em says:

    A very good question. SMH. This is mainly known amongst the women in a kinda secret way not at director level apart from the one complaint which of course can be explained away. I can’t go into detail but to say Professional protectionism. God complex amongst his peers and they close ranks to protect the profession. The ability he has to move lizard like between many different sites and companies so no one compares notes.
    I know he’s just been ‘retired’ from one place. He blamed his colleagues. Now I know the real why.
    But it does women no favours. I wonder if the dots are being joined and time and reputation are catching him. It’s nearly time he changed direction and country again.

    1. SMH says:

      Hope so, Em, but it sounds like typical narc behavior – slithering out of situations just as things are about to implode.

      1. Em says:

        Ugh I hate him for screwing up my life. I read books on narcissism he learns a new language, a new instrument, a new hobby or skill. I can’t even read a new book. I can’t move on. I have to know more stuck. And yet he’s the one on repeat.

        1. SMH says:

          I can relate to your frustration, Em. I’ve spent many, many hours reading up on narcissism (including on this blog). I felt stuck for awhile but now I can read about narcs with interest rather than frustration, and do other things as well. I am able to concentrate again and I come here to take breaks. You will get there too.

  5. Mary says:

    Hi, Supernova DE, SMH! Mary – PhD, professor, author of books and articles. Nice to meet you both. Duly proven intellect (cognitive abilities) has nothing to do with the level a person is resistant to narcissistic abuse. I’m suspecting that intelligent females are even more susceptible to commit No Contact Suicide and to be hoovered because their mind is trained to search for “meaning”, “reason”, and interconnections. Plus highly educated women usually haven’t had enough time to get well seasoned in flirting and to get to know different male types, narcs incl.
    1. A simple (but effective) tip: I put a short sticker on my phone and a screen-saver on my computer saying “Robust No Contact”. I like the adjective “robust” HG uses. It works for me.
    2. Supernova DE, you know it’s not “Him” that you miss, it’s the dopamine level. Just look at his picture again – What a clown! I wish you could magically take a look at your upcoming bf’s picture and feel the difference.

    1. SMH says:

      All very good points, Mary. Thank you especially for that last one! It’s hard to imagine!

      I didn’t question at all why I was ensnared. My narc is very intelligent and also has a higher degree. I was in awe of his intelligence, actually. It s just very different from mine. He is very left brained and I am very right brained.

    2. Supernova DE says:

      I agree that my education and post doc training has led me to search extensively (and exhaustively) for “answers” and wanting to put all of his actions into neat little boxes I can explain. Though I understand from HG this is a general trait of empaths as well.

      I do know it’s the dopamine hit that I miss. Intellectually I am well aware of this. If I met narc now, I wouldn’t even give him a second thought. He is not all that charming, above average looks but no stunner, he is somewhat awkward in conversation at times, a not so great kisser, full of himself in a less than attractive way, etc. I only fell for it because he was finishing something he started from our formative years together as teenagers. Seed was planted back then, he cashed in on it now.

      He knows very well I am smarter than him haha. He knows very well that at this point in time I see through him pretty well…I know HG says that doesn’t affect Hoover Execution Criteria, but I think it will lengthen the amount of time I have before he comes back.

      I need to read more about addiction cycles and the chemistry and withdrawal patterns. I think that might help me to see that THAT is what I’m feeling, rather than romantic heartache.

      Oh yea, and lots of sex with hubby won’t hurt either hehe.

      1. SMH says:

        Supernova, I think you are in denial. Romantic heartache yet you wouldn’t give him a second thought? Missing the dopamine but will get it from your hubby? You’re smarter but he pulled one over on you and you are HERE on this blog trying to figure it out? The sooner you can accept that you are not an exception, the faster you will heal. All due respect, but everyone here is as hot and smart as you are.

      2. Supernova DE says:

        SMH I do not believe I am an exception. I actually think that the full knowledge that I am NOT an exception, NOT special, NOT different, NOT immune to the narc is what is so incredibly painful – and I think we have all felt that way in the early part of our journeys.
        I am in fact, smarter in a book smart/IQ sense – but in terms of manipulation/street smarts, he’s got me hands down.
        Yes, missing the dopamine – but husband and family and friends can distract in a loving and productive way.
        Life circumstances affect the way we act/react/interact in so many ways. I have never had an inkling to look at another man since meeting my husband, until narc harpooned me and resurrected those childhood “first lust” feelings – that is what I mean when I say I wouldn’t react the same way now if meeting him for the first time.

        We all go through ups and downs in our feelings, some days more confident (obviously how I was feeling when I wrote that post), some days not as good (which is how I feel today.)

        1. SMH says:

          Supernova DE,

          That response to you was awhile ago. I’m sorry if I was harsh but I think you realize now that it happens to ‘the best’ of us. There are lots of people here with higher degrees. There are lots of narcs with higher degrees too! Many narcs are very intelligent (right, HG?). Getting ensnared by one can happen precisely because you are attracted to his intelligence and wit, and he uses those qualities to charm you. Mine liked smart women!!

          Think of it as getting involved with someone so far out of your league that you cannot even reach his toes! As you point out, in terms of manipulation, he’s got you beat. He has a certain kind of intelligence that we empaths don’t have. Mine had both kinds of intelligence. Of course I was attracted to his smarts rather than to his manipulations. Plus our chemistry was off the charts. But the first thing I ever Googled was hot/cold because no one had ever done that to me before and I did not understand it. I am not here because he disengaged, however. He didn’t. I am here because I want to know how he manipulated someone like me, who is actually pretty secure and self-aware.

          Hope this helps you to feel better. You are in good company :-). Now back to the FB fake profiles/stalking…

  6. Jane Hall says:

    Sounds like my X
    Especially the ” I need you, only you can fix me”
    Ive been Nc for nearly 6 months.
    Had to change my phone – he was sending me texts “I am broken without you” ” I know I had my faults but I wasn’t the only one responsible” and “You are kind and loving and don’t need to fight on your own”
    Very wearing.
    Didn’t respond.

    I know that the Red apple (as in the pic of this story) is riddled with worms underneath that red exterior.

    1. Em says:

      Brilliant description.

  7. Em says:

    He tested me I’ve been working away from him 2yrs. Ended relationship 15 months ago and NC 8 months.
    I’m back at one of the places he works – there was massive tension prior to my return, emails sneaking through, lieutenants talking about him talking about me even a hand delivered letter of apology.
    The second day in my job he planted himself in front of me several times and then two days later. I kept comms to a minimum. His reputation here is terrible. But I can’t be overtly rude.
    Now week 3 nothing I think hes on holiday but no sneaked emails no presence. I thought it would intensify. So I’m missing it and wondering what happens next. Anyone?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      He is focused on another appliance. You will be hovered again in due course, your presence at work will cause repeated hoover triggers and it is highly likely that the hoover execution criteria will be met, resulting in further hoovers.

      1. Em says:

        Thanks HG. I’m scared and exhilarated at the same time. I have to keep emotional thinking and fuel under control. Fortunately his reputation is so bad (5 women won’t work with him) that I have been able to ask my deputy to interrupt us or not leave the room if he appears. This has worked quite well and I haven’t need to explain in detail. I’ve also found out there was a complaint against him thats on record for pestering a woman. She told me tearfully. So sad. At the same time I was his DLS and he had an IPPS. Yuk horrid to hear

    2. K says:

      Ok, it’s all good. Keep calm and reread:

      keep us updated on the hoovers!

      1. Em says:

        Thanks K I will. Helpful and timely link. Thank you.
        Remembering I’m the boss and he visits my department once or twice a month….hes one of many My team provide a service for.
        So far the hoovers and tests are – he’s appeared and welcomed me to my new job. Told me ‘how lucky we are to have you’ I said ‘they are’.
        I got up and left.
        I bumped into him in the corridor he wanted to stop and talk but kept walking and said I can’t stop.
        Two days later he arrived in my dept when he wasn’t planned to be there. He asked if his equipment had been ordered. I said it wasn’t a priority and I doubt I will approve it. (trying to make him feel unimportant). Brought me a half drunk cup of coffee said it was espresso. I didn’t accept. It made me angry inside as I remembered all the cheap gifts he bought me. I kept it under control but I fuelled him. He smirked. I Kept my arms crossed. He was forced to put the cup down on my desk. I told him he couldn’t bribe me. I don’t know why I said this. I sneered at the coffee said I don’t even know what’s in it Im not accepting that. I pointed out the bin. My deputy ditched it.
        I got up and left. Later my deputy commented about what a creep he is and he would be my minder.
        That was 3 weeks ago. Now nothing since. Not even a sneaked email and yet leading up to me starting work there I was getting all sorts of NC breaches. It’s like he knows where I am so I can wait. It’s almost like I’ve been shelved but I’ve escaped so it can’t be. It’s like he’s given up. But HG says he’ll be back. The quiet before the storm.
        He’s back in the department next week.
        Fortunately he has a reputation here already and a written complaint against him so at least my wariness is not seen as barking mad.
        Watch this space!!
        I’d really like to be free of him.

        1. SMH says:

          Em, why hasn’t he been fired?

        2. K says:

          You are welcome, EM!
          Serendipity is at work, because the article just come up again in rotation.
          I am glad the deputy realizes he is a creep and is willing to be your minder.

          SMH has a point with all those complaints, he should have been fired by now, although, my sister had a similar situation and it took many, many complaints before her office narcissist eventually got fired along with one of his minions.

          You are not mad and hopefully he will dig his own grave soon enough.

  8. echo says:

    How long can I resist him? How about until the contract ends. But I also recognize that’s easy to say when it’s not being tested.

  9. Omj says:

    You little narcs are so dependent … do you really think that ? Say that to yourself ? Well that is good to see we can have a lot of power … but not for long because you will want another one and another one and another one … anyway … Narcland tickets are on sale … shit … i bought them … hope It think it is another best before ticket .. shit :))

  10. M Rivera says:

    You are so right!

  11. Supernova DE says:

    Wow. Wish I had read this about eight hours ago. I broke NC today and texted him several times, my emotion increasing each time. Chock full o fuel for him. He pretended that he hadn’t read them and didn’t respond….textbook.
    Any doubt he is a narc is gone, I don’t see how a normal person could totally ignore texts asking just to talk from someone they shared three years of intimacy with and a lifetime of friendship to boot.
    I’m in agony. HG is so right, any bit of contact, even unrequited, gets the whole ET back in full force. And now I’m in tears, trying desperately not to continue to text over and over and over just to vent how I’m feeling. At this point I don’t even care about giving him fuel, just want him to respond. Anything. Acknowledge my existence.
    I do exist. I am here. I am loved. I am a good person. I don’t need you. One day I will not want you. I swear it.

    1. MB says:

      You are correct Supernova, normal people don’t ignore you when you’re pouring out your heart, when you’ve done nothing to deserve being treated that way. It hurts way more to reach out with no reply, than to resist reaching out at all. At least there’s no rejection that way. I know this, yet I continue to do it too. They know it hurts. They know just a simple reply will release that knot in your stomach, your racing heart, relieve that anxiety of that unanswered text from hours/days ago. They know what you want. That’s why they won’t give it to you. Your expectations get lower and lower over time until you’re ecstatic with even one word and then they won’t even give you that. I never saw it as abuse or manipulation, but that’s exactly what it is. Just a different kind of slap in the face to let you know that you don’t matter. We deserve way more and we know it yet continue to engage. Yes, the drug is THAT addictive.

      1. Chihuahuamum says:

        Great post MB so helpful!
        I think too some narcs wont reply right away as a mind F game. They know youre hurting and thats why you reached out. So to make you even more desperate they wait a bit so that when they do reply youre even more desperate and feel theyre doing YOU the favor. Its all mind games. Look at his not replying as rejection. I dont say this to hurt you but use it as a tool to feel disgust towards him and block him. Use his ugliness to repel yourself from him. You have to block him tho bc he will reply hes just waiting a bit to maje you squirm in more discomfort. He thinks hes got you again….

        1. MB says:

          Good advice Chihuahuamum!

      2. windstorm says:

        You’re right about normal people not ignoring you. I was in my 40’s before I figured that out, because I thought narcs WERE the normal people.

        I would add, though, that every time you get ignored by a narc is not for revenge or to deliberately abuse you. A lot of midrangers will ignore you when you are in need because they just don’t want to deal with you being upset, needy, clingy, taking up their time.

        It’s an inconvenience to them. They don’t want to do it – so they don’t. Having no empathy they care only for themselves and they have better things to do right then than fool with you.

        1. MB says:

          Good to know WS. But I wonder if it ever occurred to them that when you ignore people, they become CLINGLY and NEEDY and UPSET. Ha ha

          1. windstorm says:

            That’s when mine assured me I was crazy and defective because NORMAL people didn’t get clingy, needy or upset – just messed up people like me.

            When my mother would tell me this as a child she would even look worried and concerned, like “Oh my God! My child is defective! She’ll probably never be normal! Why did this happen to me?”

          2. MB says:

            They really do live in a reality different from ours WS.

      3. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        “Normal people don’t ignore you when you’re pouring out your heart.” – MB
        Everything you posted… it took me too long to realize! Actually, I’m still trying to understand their need for control on the level they seem to require. Your words were very well-put, MB.

        1. MB says:

          Thank you BKK. It’s been very validating, although sad, to know that so many others can relate. I thought I was truly crazy until I found HG and this blog.

      4. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Chihuahuamum & Windstorm,
        I experienced both of the ways you describe… by the same narc! At times, I could tell that he was just sitting back, purposefully ignoring me, gaining some sick pleasure out of avoiding my desperate attempts to reach him whenever he’d suddenly go ‘poof’ into thin air. He seemed to enjoy not giving me what I wanted. He loved power and he craved control. He would even say, “It is all about winning.” And he would win… at all costs.

        Then at times, I sincerely felt that he went silent because he couldn’t deal with my emotions, just as you stated Windstorm. He knew he had done me wrong, and he couldn’t handle the repercussions. I also sensed that he was afraid I’d be so emotional that I’d tell others, as once he revealed to me, “I’m a horrible person; you’re going to tell – aren’t you?” It was as if he were hoping I’d give him a heads up if I did decide to go public. There were times when he seemed sincere and even humbled as he shamefully confessed, saying that he never meant to hurt me. He was trying to act as if he had little control over this need for attention… this need he didn’t fully understand. His wounding me was simple collateral damage. It wasn’t something he wished for, just a necessity. He truly seemed as if he wished my pain hadn’t occured. He went to great lengths to hide his escapades, so I do believe that a part of him hoped that all could go smoothly so that he could keep up his juggling act as long as possible.

        It was almost as if he was thinking, “It’s a shame that I have to lose this attentive source of fuel. Had she not been so damn persistent in finding out the truth, my lifestyle wouldn’t have to take this hit… but MY needs DO come first, so I gotta hide from these tears as this turmoil has put a major damper on my quests for more fuel.” But of course, he was too smooth to admit to that, so he’d become super charming to win me back, and when that didn’t work, he’d sulk into a major silent treatment.

        Yet again, when I finally pushed him and he revealed the ugly truth, in that moment, it was as if he enjoyed my pain. Then after he realized what he’d actually done, he’d scurry away into silence.

        So yes, Chihuahuamum, a “mind F game” for sure! His predictable behaviors, mixed with massive inconsistencies… that’s one of the reasons my mind stayed so fucked!

        1. MB says:

          BKK, this man you describe sounds like a textbook MRN to me. Don’t be fooled by his false contrition. It’s part of the game.

          To me, the hardest part of the entire entanglement with a narcissist is trying to reconcile the differences between what they SAY and what they DO. That’s what messes with your mind the most. Actions speak louder than words. And the words…the beautiful words, but no substance to back them up. When you try to grasp anything real, it’s like trying to hug smoke.

          1. WiserNow says:

            MB and BKK,

            I’ve been reading your conversation with Windstorm and Chihuahuamum, and I can relate to it very much.

            There must be a reason why our minds either “want” or “have” to forget the bad. I think we want to believe in their “goodness” because the alternative (that it’s all an illusion and they’re actually abusive) is either too hard to accept or isn’t how we want the relationship to be, so a part of us unconsciously rationalises the “bad” away.

            Lately, I’ve been reading about the way young children’s brains develop in relation to their attachment with their mothers. I read about a study of traumatised and abused children and a case where a little girl’s arm was broken by her mother. The little girl was told that she would be given a “new mother” who wouldn’t break her arm. The little girl said something like, “oh no! I don’t want a new mummy. I want my mummy. I was bad and that’s why my arm is broken”. The study found that small children need to sustain a close attachment with their caregivers for their own survival, and this will cause them to “rationalise” their abuse and internalise the blame in order to maintain their view that the caregiver is “good”. Their belief that the caregiver is inherently “good” allows them to maintain the attachment.

            Prior to becoming aware of how narcs operate, I would easily forget, or rationalise, or forgive, their hurtful actions from the past. I did this because I readily “believed” them when they behaved well or did things that seemed like they cared or were supportive. I thought their “good” side was the real them and the bad actions were an aberration or a reason to sympathise with them.

            These days, I make a conscious effort to “remember” the narc’s bad actions. I make a point of repeatedly and consciously going back in time and recalling the things they did or said that were hurtful or callous or selfish. I deliberately remember how it made me feel at the time and what I thought of them when they did it. I make sure I don’t forget or rationalise it away.

            I create a new narrative in my mind. I find that this helps me to keep emotional thinking at bay and keeps me from “believing” them when they seem contrite or try to do “loving” things.

          2. SMH says:

            Not to butt in, WiserNow et al, but I once made an actual list of all the reasons to go back to him and all of the reasons to NOT go back. The NOT go back list was way longer, of course, but I still went back. There is something ‘irresistable’ but I’ve never been able to put my finger on it. Must be the sex. I read somewhere that with narcs the sex is intense because they keep you in such a state of anxiety that your nerve endings are constantly exposed, so the sex is never bland. The sex then leads one to believe that there must be some really deep underlying attachment. It’s all smoke and asthma!

          3. WiserNow says:

            Yes, that’s interesting. The fact that there always seems to be something that needs to be “resolved” or isn’t quite right, means that the anxiety and our thought patterns keep turning and they become addictive. The emotional thinking never seems to relax.

            The reality is that there’s no actual attachment with them. We think that it’s real and try to make it real, however, on their behalf, it’s never truly there.

          4. SMH says:

            Wisernow, Yes, though I am somewhat on the fence about the attachment issue. I’ve seen that I can have different styles depending on the other person – it’s a relational issue — and I am guessing the narc can too. He always keeps us in a state of anxiety by being avoidant. But maybe a greater narc would make a lesser one anxious by being more avoidant, whereas a lesser one would make an empath anxious by being more avoidant, etc.

          5. windstorm says:

            My attachment styles vary depending on the relationship, too. There are definite similarities, but a lot of differences, too. I don’t gave that worry of being unloved or uncared for that formed the backbone of my relationship with my mother with anyone else.

          6. SMH says:

            Windstorm, I once said to him, ‘I don’t know why I am so anxious. It is not as if my mother abandoned me.’ Of course he didn’t know what I was talking about. All the psychological stuff went right over his head. He didn’t think like that at all.

          7. windstorm says:

            Yeah, my exhusband isn’t like that at all. He understands all the nuances and interactions between people much better than I do. If I made a comment like that to him when we were married, he’d have just laughed at me. If I made it now he’d probably share his own insights. Often these insights just make me feel blind and stupid, but sometimes i can offer him a perspective he hadn’t considered since he has only cognitive empathy.

          8. SMH says:

            Your ex must be a greater!

          9. windstorm says:

            Yep. Seems to be. He certainly knows what he is and has since he was a young man. Thankfully he has mellowed some with age and is rarely deliberately very hurtful to family and close friends.

            A few years ago his heart stopped, but he was in a court house, just 20 feet from a paramedic and 5 minutes from a hospital. They brought him back with electroshock and he ended up having a quintuple bypass. That was truly a life changing event for him. He seems to much more value many things/people he took for granted before.

          10. SMH says:

            That’s interesting, Windstorm, because anytime there was an event – a terror attack or something else that touched home – I would expect mine to suddenly value people and not risk everything with me (IPSS). Only once did he get scared because of something with a family member. At that point, we mutually agreed to call it quits (we were arguing too much anyway). But he still came back (I refused at that point).

            I was with raised eyebrows all the time – really? Even THAT did not persuade him to change?? Really? It still isn’t over?? Maybe he needs to have a heart attack too…

          11. windstorm says:

            Mine never cares about people he doesn’t know. If a tragedy involves someone he knows, he’ll get angry and clam up (probably containing his fury). If it involves people he doesn’t know but could escalate to a world problem, he studies it and will discuss it, but dispassionately. Something like that team of boys trapped for weeks in the cave on the news, he’s like “yadda, yadda , yadda” and very dismissive.

            I don’t think anything happening to someone else will spur them to change. It has to be something traumatic happening to them. And then they probably have to be smart enough to know what they are, or how would they know what to change?

          12. SMH says:

            Windstorm, Yours probably clams up because it isn’t about him and it requires him to emote or to at least pay lip service to someone else. The only reason mine got scared about the family member was because he could imagine it happening to him. It had nothing to do with whether anyone was hurt. And then of course it didn’t last long because as you point out, he did not know how to change.

            Otherwise, he too was very dismissive. He did get mildly upset when Trump was elected, but that was the only time he ever even mentioned a world event to me.

          13. windstorm says:

            Mine didn’t just clam up, he gets angry when family tragedy occurs. I think it’s more because it does impact him in that he HAS to deal with it and deal with emotional people and he doesn’t like to feel forced to do anything. Its more that here’s another distasteful, difficult thing required by facade management that’s not providing him with fuel.

            Mine is mainly dismissive about events that don’t affect him or events that draw others attention but provide him with no fuel. Those boys trapped in the cave is a great example. The only comment I got out of him about it was about the logistics of the rescue by the navy seals.

            He is very concerned about all things political and to do with trade. Anything he believes is important to the US and our future stability. He is very analytical and logical. Studying events and their possible ramifications is one of his main ways to stave off boredom. That is his arch nemesis – boredom. He always has to be doing/thinking about something. He has the lowest boredom threshold of anyone I know!

          14. SMH says:

            Ah, WS, makes sense that he would be dismissive or irritated because attention was taken off of him. Maybe that’s what mine was doing too. It was part of being in the bubble where it was just me and him (with me attending to him, of course).

          15. NarcAngel says:

            Well he does have a lot of time on his hands being naked and not having to worry about what outfits to wear. I imagine when you get an invitation to something you will attend together where the dress code is casual attire, it must put the fear in you. On the other hand, you say you also enjoy nudity at home. I hope you have leather furniture so that when I stop by I will be able to quickly identify your “spot” on the sofa lol.

          16. K says:

            If I remember correctly your father was a greater but I don’t remember what your mother was. Was she a greater or mid-ranger?

          17. windstorm says:

            Midrange somatic. Probably middle midrange. Add it to your file. 😝

          18. K says:

            Thank you, I just added it to my notes in Word!

          19. SMH says:

            You have FILES on us AND you talk about us behind our backs, K? 🙂

          20. MB says:

            Great post WN! It’s the empathic sin of rejecting negativity. We don’t want to accept that people do bad things so we turn our heads, explain it away, focus on the positive.

            It makes perfect sense that a child that has bonded with a caregiver would rationalize and hold on for the sake of survival. Are we THAT attached to the narcissist? Is his ability to bolt us onto him as powerful as that of a mother? Explains a lot!

            “These days, I make a conscious effort to “remember” the narc’s bad actions”: A great strategy if you must think of them at all.

          21. WiserNow says:

            Thanks MB. It’s quite amazing that the empathic traits that can be great strengths can also be used in devastating ways against us. It shows there’s a good side and a bad side to most things.

            Personally, I think there’s a lot of truth in the theory of attachment. The attachment style a baby develops with his/her mother (or primary caregiver) predicts the attachment style it will have with other close people all it’s life, unless steps are taken to change it. The person “recreates” the same dynamic in future.

          22. MB says:

            WN, it makes me wonder what the effect of the attachment style I had as a baby has on the attachment style MY children had/have with me?

      5. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        MB… You are correct. HG diagnosed him as an MRN… potentially an Upper due to his extensive ability to charm. But I only know him as a lower dick, so whatever fits, right? Just coming to accept him as a narcissist was the biggest help. And like you, I have HG to thank for that… and all of you for your kind words and support.

        I tried to hug that smoke so many times that I think I now have asthma. Thinking of my narcissist’s deceptive ways still makes me gasp for air. As you mentioned, it’s the trying to make sense of their sweet words versus the sour reality of their actions that strains the brain. Mine even told me that once, when he was professing his great love. He said it would be his actions, not his words, that will show me.

        He showed me more than my eyes ever wanted to see. 😨

        1. MB says:

          BKK, another thing I don’t get. You share all your wishes, hopes, dreams, and fantasies with them. They actually have the power to grant those wishes for you, like your own personal genie in the bottle. They talk about it, like it’s going to happen, like it will come true but then it never does. Leaving you with disappointment over and over again. It would be so easy to make you happy, yet they don’t. If I could make wishes come true, especially by simply giving my time and attention, I would do it as much as I could!

        2. windstorm says:

          “I tried to hug that smoke so many times that I think I now have asthma.”

          Great line! 👍

      6. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        I know! I was so good to him, MB. He took parts of me that I rarely offer. I feel as if I gave him just about everything.

        It seems so simple to us, though. Just give us a little and we’ll be happy. Just stay faithful, and you’ll have our loyalty for life.

        But we become stale. Always trying to prove their worth, to themselves and to anyone who will notice, they eventually can’t get enough from one. They don’t fully accept themselves. Once they have our validation, it’s as if they need such from another source to be able to believe it.

        I learned the hard way with mine; one woman will never be enough. He’s an attention-seeking manwhore. Yet, a part of me still cares so much, that all I want to do is help him. So, the sickness is mine. I see that. 😔

        1. MB says:

          Yes BKK, the sickness is ours too. I certainly agree!

      7. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Thanks Windstorm, but you’ve shared some pretty snazzy lines yourself. I’ve enjoyed reading some of your older comments and exchanges with HG.

        I wish that I had time to read everything on this blog. Take away all of the heartache and pain, and there’s plenty of entertainment to be found here. 😄

      8. K says:

        This line made me laugh: I thought narcs WERE the normal people.

        Ha ha ha…narcs (disordered behaviour) were my normal, too!

      9. K says:

        They ignore (devalue) you for fuel, control, reinforcement of their need for superiority and self-worth, ergo, clingy, needy and upset equals fuel and control. It is instinct and it gives them exactly what they need. There’s no way in Hell they will shut down their fuel supply.

        1. MB says:

          Thought fuel only lasts for so long though, K.

          1. K says:

            True, but fuel is fuel. Also, the narcissist is banking on the possibility that the empath will try to reach out and get back in touch; closure denied, so the door is left wide open for a hoover.

          2. MB says:

            K, their patience astounds me. I am a “make things happen” kind of girl. There’s no waiting around to see. Ain’t nobody got time for that! It seems counterintuitive that THEY would have that kind of patience.

            HG, Speaking of leaving the door open, I’ve found myself wondering what the trigger was that made you hoover after 12 years?

      10. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        WiserNow, you offered excellent insight into how our childhood dictates the manner of our adult interactions. Your studies on attachment brings to mind my own childhood as I attempt to explain away how I could have possibly allowed a man to treat me in such disparaging ways.

        The little girl you used as an example breaks my heart, yet mama will always be mama, especially in the eyes of a child. I enjoy, WiserNow, how you often introduce thought-provoking topics. ☺ And I have enjoyed reading MB’s exchanges with y’all here.

        The trauma we all have experienced, the toxic bonds… all of it undoubtedly plays its roll in narcissism. I believe nature AND nurture are at the root cause. I guess this makes my hope of finding a cure even more difficult. 😐

        SMH, your response on the addictive qualities of their “skills” is equally interesting. I can see how anxiety has its roll as I recall a study where men went on adventurous, daring dates… and there was another study of men who had a fear of heights. When these particular men spoke to a woman on a swinging bridge, they found her more attractive… as did the men who went bungee jumping or such on their first dates.

        So this makes perfect sense to me, SMH… especially on how my mofo was able to make me “short of air” in that department, too! He certainly put forth the effort (out of a sense of pride) but there had to be more to it for me to have gone back!? I thought I was giving him another chance out of the kindness of my heart. But now I know it was just exposed nerve endings that made me return to his dirty parts! Whew – I knew there had to be something to explain my lapse in judgment. Thank you, SMH. I actually feel better about my nymphomaniac self! 😄

        Windstorm, mine would get bored easily too. I never could grasp that. He is a hard worker at his job… has many hobbies… drummer in a band, chemistry lover, surfer, scuba diver, fast motorcycles/cars aficionado, live theater/amature thespian, snappy dancer, a self-proclaimed foodie… blah, blah, blah. Yet this man can get bored!

        I’d say, “Wipe down a baseboard or organize your sock drawer. I’ll come over and show you how to make the most out of your space.” I now know that boredom came whenever he was alone, without immediate access to fuel.

        I’m rarely bored. There’s too much to do, to see, to hear, to taste, to smell… to touch. 😉

        As much as that man broke my heart, I am starting to see that I never really admired him… not as much as I thought. Why? Because I wouldn’t want to be him.

    2. Chihuahuamum says:

      Hi supernova DE….dont beat yourself up over breaking no contact its part of the journey sometimes. Jump back on the no contact wagon before you can see any replies from him. Is there a way to stay really busy and be around others for a few days? It sounds like youre in withdrawals. The reality is setting in and you want the pain to go away. It will with time. So many on here have worked thru the withdrawals. Its temporary. When you feel like contacting him try to distract yourself and stay busy. Being around people works too. Also write down all the nasty things hes done to you and read it at your weak moments. Vent on here. He will never give you closure only more lies. Best of luck (((hugs)))

    3. Quasi says:

      Hey supernova…. stop and breathe lovely..
      Trying to think about what to do next, pick up your phone and delete all of the messages to him in your outbox, then think it’s done! there is no gains in beating yourself up, know that this was one decision at one point in time. Every time we listen to our ET it can hurt like hell, we feel it like a dagger when they choose to ignore, to them it is a game, a game of power and control…. do not give him any more of your power! If you need to rage and express get some paper and something to write with and write it all out – everything your feeling literally let it out of your head and on to paper..ask yourself questions and see what comes to mind automatically- you may surprise yourself! keep it safe or if you don’t want it, rip it up , or burn it!

      If your able to express your emotions do, cry, punch a pillow ( imagine his head is there 😂) but don’t touch your phone again…
      if you don’t block emotions and let them do what they need to do they will subside. Emotions are so important- they tell us things our intellect can not.. what you are experiencing right now will be a teacher to you in the months to come, it will be your proof, your evidence that He is what he is and there is no gains in contacting him.

      His words are an illusion even if he choose to respond to you.

      Breathe supernova, be kind to yourself. And know that you are not the first or last person to break no contact, and you can start again, nothing is wasted when you learn from it.

      Try and shift the focus away from him and why he is being hurtful, back to you and how amazing you are and that he doesn’t deserve your words or your time/ attention.
      The pain may be raw today, but if you process it and learn from it, you will be stronger, and braver ! Tomorrow will be different lovely!

      His tomorrow’s will be very similar to what he has lived already. Recycle – repeat.

      Take care supernova .. it will change again .. it won’t stay like this. X

    4. Jess says:

      You learn after breaking No Contact that its nothing but “All aboard the ET train on the express Rt. to Narctown” If they happen to show you the Golden Periiod it is only brief making you long for it even more. The pain is as unbearable as being unseen/ignored and your resolve breaks down.

      A suggestion! Write down a list of his greatest offenses. What effected you the most? Read this list during your ET moments. The hurt will replace longing and you will see the situation more logically. Logic protects you from harm and can be a comfort moving forward.

      You have to find what works for you. I feel ridiculous giving advice. I drank to much and unblocked the narcissist from FB just last week!!!!! Had to wait two days to reblock him. I know better than to do these things. It’s been 7 months NC but ET still won’t shut the fuck up. When it comes to the narcissist emotions utterly betray you.

      Good 🍀 staying strong and forgive yourself for the setback. “Every passing day is another chance to turn it all around. “

    5. Supernova DE says:

      Thank you all for your kind words. I wasn’t anticipating so much support, was just trying to release my emotions but I so appreciate it.

      Both times I have broken NC have come at the six week mark of starting over. I’ll be more vigilant moving forward. I’ve been going between feeling awful and overconfident these past two weeks and this is the culmination. Added to that the July 4 Holiday was triggering because of specific things related to my narc, and I had a few days off work and was bored leading to too much time to think.

      I’m not really beating myself up, to be honest I knew I would do this at some point, I needed this test. It’s actually just that I think this is my moment for devastation of the illusion…I don’t think I really believed it 100% before. I am an incredibly intelligent person, I won’t say my occupation here but there are no higher degrees to hold than the ones I do, and I disappoint myself in not being able to fully intellectualize this. I understand this to be my empathic nature and the addiction of course.

      I absolutely knew without a doubt that he wouldn’t answer, yet I did it anyway. I’ve never felt I was an addictive person, but wow this has me falling to my knees. I also knew that I should make my message compliant, seek absolution, beg, indicate I would come to heel…but I couldn’t. I used my usual detached and reasonable tone at first. He trained me to be that way, seems weird for a narc to encourage you to be detached and less emotional, but he insisted on it. I complied 99% of the time, maybe that’s why I got so much cold fury, not enough emotion showed on my part, too much neutrality.

      His manipulations were so odd at times. For example, the first time we talked about meeting in person he waffled back and forth so much on if he wanted to have sex I thought he was morally conflicted. I remained neutral saying “Whatever you think is best for you.” And when we finally saw each other, I shut down his physical advances trying to protect him from himself. I thought he’d freak out after! He tried to withdraw immediately. Six week silent treatment followed. I was MORE THAN willing to go through with it, but he messed it up for himself…just don’t get it. These are the things that made me doubt.

      1. SMH says:

        Supernova, Don’t beat yourself up. I also have the highest degree, as is the case with many people here. We come here because it is an intelligent place to be. I do also have an addictive personality — I have lived other lives — so I partly blame myself.

        I never thought I was much of an empath, though definitely more than he is! I was confused about why he targeted me. Maybe we challenge their sense of themselves as the smartest person on earth. (They target other people for other reasons – not better or worse, just different.) I also thought mine was morally conflicted (darned empathy poking through) but I was wrong. It was all for fuel, as is the fact that yours does not respond to your messages.

        I broke NC a lot too, though I was almost always the one who left. I would miss him, think I was fine and could be ‘friends.’ He would get his claws back in and the whole thing would start again. Each round of NC was incredibly hard, each time I would be really shocked that he would want me back, each time we would discuss how to make it work, and each time the exact same pattern would repeat. LOL. You’d think I would learn that tigers do not change their stripes…

        It was not until I had done 6 months NC, partly with the help of what everyone suggests – writing it all out – that I mostly broke the addiction.

        After those 6 months, I also broke NC, but he was unable to convince me to return. Still it took 4 more months to disengage, which is when I found this site.

        I got through it mostly on my own because I knew it was an addiction, and having been an addict, I knew what to do (though actually doing it was not easy). It was much the same as when I was 17 and banished to the other side of the world for a year. When I returned, someone tried to tempt me but my brain had reset, I had reengaged with the world, and I refused.

        Read about addictions and how to break them. In fact, this site is basically Narc(otics) Anonymous :-). Your narc is an opioid. The knowledge that he is out there will tempt you. I come here to reinforce NC with the help of so many smart and supportive people who have been through the same thing.

        HG sets the tone of the blog and raises the bar quite high. It engages curious people who like a puzzle. So I also come here to learn because part of me finds it fascinating (and often amusing). Use it to learn, use your research skills, use your intellect to examine your own responses too.

        Sorry this is so long but your pleas spoke to me. I hope it helps!

      2. Supernova DE says:

        Question for those following this string: If your narc denied your existence as I describe post discard, how did they explain this away when they hoovered?!

        1. Quasi says:

          Hi supernova, I have seen my narcissist a couple of times since disengagement/ corrective hoover gone wrong ?. . on one occasion he placed himself a foot away from me to be intimidating and get whatever fuel he could! He has not said a word to me! But I imagine that if he attempted a direct hoover at some stage he would pretend like nothing has happened, and just start a conversation, deflecting and revelling in any fuel he can get from any protestations… although he will not experience this from me as I will be walking away from him..

        2. windstorm says:

          My experience seems just like HG describes with his spheres of influence. If you don’t show up in one, it’s like you don’t exist for them. They literally don’t even think of you. It’s like you don’t exist. Like a lost toy to a two year old. They just play with the other toys until they happen to see you or something brings you back into their mind.

          When this happens and they see you, hear about you or they see/hear something that makes them think about you, then BOOM you’re important again. That makes perfect sense to them and they see nothing wrong with having not thought about you for however long it’s been. Just like the toddler who found her previous favorite toy under the bed.

          When you try to contact them, but they ignore you and won’t respond, no matter how desperate you become – well, think of that two year old again. Say she had a favorite doll that she carried around everywhere. She couldn’t sleep without it.

          Then she got a new doll that had different hair and clothes and maybe even its own little stroller. Suddenly the old doll’s laying on the floor totally ignored and she’s carrying the new doll everywhere. It doesn’t matter that the old doll is there laying on the floor in plain sight. The toddler never even notices it. She will even step on it as she’s pushing the new doll in her stroller.

          Then after a while, the stroller’s broken and the new doll’s lost under a pile of other toys, when the toddler comes across the old doll under the bed… see where this is going.

          That’s how narc thinking and hoovering seems to me. I guess I’m just used to it. I don’t let it bother me, no more than how my granddaughters play with their toys bothers me.

          1. SMH says:

            Windstorm, good points. It’s important not to imagine that the narc has been ‘missing’ you when he reappears. It’s just that his attention suddenly shifted back to you.

            Supernova DE, the narc will just deny if you confront him with that. He’ll think up something or he will toss some word salad at you or change the subject or not answer the question.

          2. Supernova DE says:

            This analogy is awesome WS. And of course I KNOW all of that from reading so much that HG has written. But…I mistakenly still thought I was different I guess. I see now that even though I’ve been reading here for a few months I didn’t really believe it all applied to me. I think I had myself convinced that because I’ve known him since we were kids that I was different to him…and I thought that I was too “good” to have fallen for all this BS. Maybe I didn’t want to believe I was capable of being so deceived. HG writes that it’s easy and preferable to find someone they have past ties to to harpoon….that is me and narc, for sure. I was too selfish and narcissistic in my youth to fall for it. Becoming a mother and probably other life circumstances made me vulnerable now. I need to do the work to try and figure out what in my marriage made me susceptible to this affair.

            And YES I have three daughters under 8, I’ve seen them trample the dolls…yikes. It makes me sick, and I’m trying to find my anger to help propel me forward. How dare he view all I gave him so dispassionately?! I reminded him many times how lucky he was to have someone as beautiful, smart, caring, sexy, horny (sorry TMI haha), on the side in his married life. Of course, none of that matters to him, it’s just FUEL.

          3. windstorm says:

            Glad you liked the analogy! I have three granddaughters that have been born since I’ve been here on this blog. Watching them as I read HG’s articles, it is uncanny how much toddler behavior resembles narc behavior.

          4. SMH says:

            It is just fuel, Supernova. And it is hard for us to get our heads around because to us it seems pretty pointless.

        3. Clarece says:

          Hi Supernova,

          As simple as “I thought it would feel good to let some negativity go.”
          Then when I countered that, I get the response, “I’m not looking to cause a confrontation. All I’ve done is apologize. Just please stop bashing me.”
          So it always flips that I’m the crazy one and he is somehow the victim.

        4. MB says:

          Gone for two years with no explanation. It was a complete vanishing act. Here one day, poof the next. Utterly bewildering. Then sent a LinkedIn message out of the blue one day. Never wanted to discuss the absence. “No use talking about the past, let’s just move forward.” Picked right back up like it was the next week. There were no allowances for the possibility of my hurt feelings, wanting an explanation, or even that he should’ve felt like an ass wipe. Just business as usual. Compartmentalization at its best.

      3. shesaw says:

        Hi Supernova DE, re “Question for those following this string: If your narc denied your existence as I describe post discard, how did they explain this away when they hoovered?!”

        He would complain about how I hurted him or made him feel so alone (I expressed a boundary, told him No, and that made him leave). So he made it like I was the ‘beast’ that he was afraid of and he was the one that had the guts to come back and forgive me. LOL.
        He knew my Achilles heel – I couldn’t hurt him, I would do anything to make him feel loved. I am sure he used that to win me back.

        On the other hand I believe he is a vulnerable narc and he proceeds with utter caution when he hoovers. Sometimes I hate my own persuasion when I don’t respond to him (there’s my Achilles heel again – I so hate to hurt him… Life is hard for someone who gives in to attachment 😉 )

      4. Jess says:

        Supernova in response to your question. The narcissist wants fuel from you and how he views you always depends on his fuel matrix. He could try to restart the relationship or might drop in just to see where your head (heart) is at. HG details what to expect from each school and it varies based on their level of function. In order for him to restart the relationship he will have to reidealize you in his own head and rethink his devaluation in a way that maintians his superiority and makes it his choice (control). Random example. “I know she was a crazy/controlling person and all she did was get on my case but she must really love me….I’ll give her a chance.” Basically, he sees you as white again, he smells blood in the water and his teeth are ready to sink into you. Depending on his school he may not be aware of this.

    6. Dragonfly2 says:

      We need you here! I know how hard it is but narcs don’t care when they are done with you. I get it. I ran into my ex 13 days ago accidently at a parking lot. I couldn’t resist yelling ‘sociopath’ him. He wouldn’t look at me. Then I went home kicking myself in the ass, why can’t I just shut up?

      Then I laid in bed despondent for 3 full days. Not eating. He is my addiction. Finally a friend came over and took me on a mini-holiday for 3 days. She saved me as I feel better. However, I wanted to text him sooooo badly. Withdrawals are bad.

      I thought of every way I might possibly get him to meet me, hold me, talk to me, like we use to!

      Sometimes one step forward, two steps back, 3 steps forward . . .

      Men will kiss your ass but women will save it. Be good to yourself today. Make someone laugh. I try to make at least one person laugh every day. It works for me.

      1. windstorm says:


        “Men will kiss your ass, but women will save it.”

        Love that line! Making people smile or laugh is very good therapy – for us and for them!

    7. BurntKrispyKeen says:

      Hang in there, Supernova DE… You. Will. Get. There!

      I am ashamed to admit to how many times I broke no contact. Those narcissists are addictive little stinkers. Just like HG observed, I have been in the position to where a pathetic one-word-response gave enough satisfaction to make me smile and relieve that burning pain of rejection… at least for a bit. I was soooo desperate that I clung to whatever crumbs my narcissist tossed my way.

      It sickens me now. But like any addiction, the more times we try to break-free and then fail… the closer we actually get to succeeding. With effort, it eventually sticks.

      For me, the “no contact” best served to clear my head, to work on me and to see that I can, and will, be just fine without him. And if you give ’em enough of your silence, when they do try to come back, they will sense your strength. It rattles them. And it’s fun.

      Reading here helps tremendously. Posting gets it off of your chest, and hearing what others have endured helps us to see how we are not alone. Oh the stories we all could tell!

      I had resisted seeing mine for fourteen months, although we would speak or text intermittently. He would go silent for so long, that I would worry I’d never hear from him again. It was during those periods that I decided to utilize his silence… to grow stronger. When he’d eventually reach out, wanting to see me, I declined. It wasn’t easy – still isn’t. But I started to see that I could survive without his compliments, his touch, his illusions of care and concern. I accepted that what he actually brought into my life was despair, not the long-forgotten promises of a lifetime of love.

      Their flattery is only fluff to hide their destruction. Since the fourteen months of avoiding seeing him, I have seen him twice now, as recently as last night at an outdoor concert. It gets easier, Supernova DE. Just keep thinking of the ways you want to be treated, knowing that if he truly is a narcissist, he is sadly UNABLE to fulfill your needs. (The smart narcissists know this and will admit to their shortcomings when it serves them to do so.) But YOU deserve to have your needs met… to feel loved, respected and honored.

      We are addicted to the excitement they brought us when they were pretending to adore us. Mine wanted to cherish me the way “a man is supposed to love a woman.” (Apparently, we read different romance novels and grew up watching contrasting fairy-tale chick flicks.) If they really loved us in the way they so adamantly proclaimed, they wouldn’t be able to shit all over us and then play in the mess.

      Best wishes as you try stay focused on you and your needs.

      (I keep telling myself… any man who can ignore me for that long isn’t deserving of my acknowledgement whenever he pops back in to seek my attention. So for whatever reason your narcissist is hiding, SNDE, he doesn’t deserve your precious love. And he might just be avoiding you because he knows this, too.)

      1. Supernova DE says:

        “I keep telling myself… any man who can ignore me for that long isn’t deserving of my acknowledgement whenever he pops back in to seek my attention. “—-THIS!!!!

        I actually said this to him once “I just don’t think someone who supposedly cares for me could realistically go two or three weeks without at least texting me “
        Him – “well I can. But I’m not dating you, and you’re not dating me.”
        Yep. We weren’t dating. Having affairs with these mother f***ers is so dangerous. For this exact reason. You’re supposed to be emotionally focused elsewhere. And mostly I was. But he was also cultivating that addiction in me the whole time. By the time I realized I was hooked, the damage was done.

        I both fear and hope that I’ll not hear from him again. I still want to be “worthy” and “appealing”, though I do realize that to him those terms would be applied to my fuel, not ME as a person.

        He projected so much on me about wanting to leave our marriages, now I see it as projection. But at the time I thought “why is he accusing me of wanting him to leave his wife or give me some big commitment?!! I don’t want that!” And I didn’t. Never had even a moments thought to leave my home for him. I wanted to help him make his marriage better as a friend. Maybe that invoked fury? Rejection?

        I’m turned around now that I’m delving into details in my head.

        1. SMH says:

          Supernova, I didn’t want mine to leave his wife either (IPSS, not DLS). I think it burned him not because he wanted to be with me but because he wanted the fuel that would have ensued had I ‘fought’ for him, so he had to get it by being extra special fucked up.

          1. Supernova DE says:

            Thank you SMH, it helps to know others have gotten the same vibe.

            I think a lot of my doubt has come from him not being a master manipulator. When I started learning from HG, I got a picture in my head of someone so charming, sophisticated, roaming in elite circles, knowing they BELONG in those circles, easily able to get the empath to do just what they want, knowing five steps ahead how to orchestrate for the best fuel….and I think they exist (HG), but those are the greaters.

            Far more likely that my man was a mid-ranger. Which explains his blundering attempts at times, his lackluster seduction, his ineptitude at getting me to do just what he wanted, seemingly not being able to plan ahead and mess up the fuel he could’ve received from me, his tortured soul act (“I just don’t have my life all figured out.”), his like for associating in blue collar circles rather than intellectual ones (his judgmental words not mine), his jealousy regarding my intellect and income. Does that sound right? Anyone?

          2. windstorm says:

            Sounds logical to me. Plus there are a whole lot more midrangers out there.

            Even among the greaters, there seems to be a lot of variety, though. I think it also depends a lot on the culture where they live. Greater narcs grow up fitting into their culture in order to take maximum advantage. They all know how to plan 5 steps ahead and easily manipulate people, but they may not be charming, sophisticated or have elite circles to run in. I think that pretty well requires a large urban area.

          3. SMH says:

            Yes, Supernova DE. It’s important to remember that HG writes from the Greater’s perspective. Some of his posts don’t seem to describe my narc very well but that’s because he was a mid-ranger and not as calculating or organized as HG. There are levels of mid-ranger, though, and sometimes I think mine was an upper mid-ranger, just from what HG writes. If you really want to know the exact cadre of your narc, I guess you should consult directly with HG.

      2. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        SNDE, SMH & WS… I am forever trying to wrap my head around narcissism. I truly think that it is a subject which I am not meant to fully grasp… and I can finally say, thankfully so. ☺ But I certainly still feel that sensation of wanting to make sense out of something that seems, quite frankly, senseless.

        As you previously mentioned, it is both our logical and empathic traits which prompt the yearning for an explanation. Our wounded hearts fuel our desire to learn, understand and heal. Our overwhelmed brains need to make sense of the lies, even if we sensed the deception all along.

        Yet, as our brains accept what we need to avoid to prevent further pain, our hearts desire to revisit any interaction that resembles the period in which everything was sweet and pain-free. It’s a vicious cycle that takes most anyone numerous tries before finding the break in the circle.

        At least there’s comfort in knowing that HG has provided an excellent opportunity to learn. The knowledge and support here is truly amazing. And each time I visit, I try to remember to say a prayer of thanks that a man (with a pleasant voice) has made himself available, willing to expose the secrets his kind, unknowingly or desperately, tries to hide.

        While a narcissist usually tries to hide his escapades, once we are aware of another, he simply can’t resist triangulation. It sounds as though you have encountered this, too, within your situation, maybe even from the get-go. Yes – they want us to “fight” for them, over them and with them. It’s a constant game of push and pull, even if you didn’t volunteer to play.

        I am amazed at the many ways in how they proclaim their love. The reasons they want us seem to flow from their tongues like a trickling faucet. They have little shame in begging, in groveling, proving that they desperately need our presence in their lives.

        Yet, as soon as they know that they have completely ensnared us, the catch of the day is suddenly not as catchy.

        I think mine reveled in the rejection as much as he did the seduction. Some of them seem to fervently feed off of a challenge, as “easy” fuel must not be quite as fulfilling or fun. Actually, I think that mine pushed me away just to see if he could pull me back. Evidently, that gives them a tremendous sense of power, especially if they can bag us once more after a dose of mistreatment.

        Our fuel gets stale, as they often need external validation from more than one source. So they toss us again, ignoring us as if we’ve done nothing for them. Then out of nowhere, as Jack Nicholson’s character says… “I’m baaaack.”
        (But not back for us – back to refuel.)

        I really don’t get much about their so-called logical thinking. But I do somewhat understand their insatiable needs… that they simply need what they need… and that we are just providers of such needs; however, I contend that there are more pleasant ways for them to fill their fuel tanks without wrecking us.

        Mine exhibited similar behaviors to what’s been described here. And yes… if you’re curious, HG can help you ascertain which type has infiltrated your life. But just accepting a narcissist for a narcissist is a tremendous help.

        Mine certainly loved to dress in the stereotypical flashy clothes. He still appreciates a unique sense of style in a woman. He can be seen in a tightly knotted tie, even when the occasion calls for more casual attire. He loves to be seen with the upper echelon. I think that he needs to know that he can rub elbows with anyone, anywhere, anytime.

        He also can easily fit in with the regular rung. I found myself thinking that he enjoyes hanging out with the hounds because he needs to be top dog. His alpha ways required that he had regular interactions with those who could be deemed “beneath” him. He loved to tell me how no one else does this or how he’s the only who does that. Oh, the bragging! Once I started to get past the memories of the incredible golden period, I saw that he’s not all that golden.

        As charming as he could be, I had to accept such as a short-lived persona. That’s been very difficult for me as I can’t help but believe that there’s some genuine goodness inside his empty soul. And I’m almost certain that there is… but it’s not enough for me.

        Thank you all for helping to remind me of that… by sharing your stories, offering your insights and expressing how you feel.

        Best wishes towards feeling better… soon!

  12. geyserempath says:

    HG. I stumbled upon a video by Christina Perri entitled “Jar of Hearts” and it made me think of the Narcissist and his victims..this time, the victim conquered.

    1. BurntKrispyKeen says:

      I like that song too, Geyserempath. Back when I was speaking to my narcissist (also during when I was starting to catch on to his disgraceful ways) I sent him a quirky, short video. (Not what you’re thinking! 😜) During my presentation, I ensured that Jar of Hearts was “coincidentally” playing in the background. I even had to rewind it on my satellite radio so the “right” parts would be playing at the right time. (“You’re gonna catch a cold from the ice inside your soul.” I needed several re-takes to get it right.) As casual as I tried to make the background music seem, he had to make mention that “it’s not the kind of music” he listens to!

      I have a list of songs that make me think of narcissists, or even just players in general. Before I was educated on how much fuel I was giving, I sent many video links. Madonna’s/Baby Face’s ‘Take a Bow’ was one of the last ones. I wish I could take them all back. I sent that man countless songs.

      That was our thing…. though it started out with exchanges of sweet love songs. Once the dynamics changed, songs, even some of the lesser known songs, have said so much of how I’m feeling. Beth Hart, Grace Potter and Paloma Faith have several good ones. The list goes on….

      Your post reminded me of how important music has been for me during this healing process. So thank you for sharing, GE. 😊

      1. Jess says:

        I had such an affinity for Chris Cornell’s voice. My Nex and I often played music at the bar. One night I played this song and the MR became unhinged. He accused me of trying to “tell him something.” I had no idea what he was talking about until I focused on the lyrics. It wasn’t intended but I stumbled upon the Empath’s Anthem.

        Audioslave “I Am the Highway”

        Pearls and swine bereft of me
        Long and weary my road has been
        I was lost in the cities
        Alone in the hills
        No sorrow or pity for leaving I feel
        I am not your rolling wheels
        I am the Highway
        I am not your carpet ride
        I am the sky

        Friends and liars don’t wait for me
        ‘Cause I’ll get on all by myself
        I put millions of miles
        Under my heels
        And still too close to you, I feel
        I am not your rolling wheels
        I am the highway
        I am not your carpet ride
        I am the sky
        I am not your blowing wind
        I am the lightning
        I am not your autumn moon
        I am the night, the night

      2. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Powerful song, Jess. I am just returning from a show of three local bands and a firework display, so I’m still feeling the effects of the power of music. From YouTube, I pulled “I Am The Highway” up to listen. Thank you for the reminder. Isn’t it intriguing how a song can say so much… be interpreted in many ways…. while also frustrating a narc?!

        When I saw Frampton recently, he paid a tribute to Chris by playing Black Hole Sun. Peter’s talent as a guitarist doesn’t always get the credit it deserves. Guns N’ Roses paid the same tribute a bit back at a show I saw. Of course, Slash can flat out shred it as well.

        It certainly seems that many fellow musicians were touched by Chris and his music. Such a tragedy. Like you, I was drawn to his voice. Think I’m gonna hop for a bit and listen to your song again. Thanks for sharing, Jess. ☺

      3. Jess says: are most welcome. Chris’s voice was deep and expressive like no other. He brings the pain to the surface that my positivity doesn’t let me feel. I will rationalize and tuck it away…but it’s still there. I listen to this song when I’m feeling powerless or lonely as a reminder that it’s better to on my own than with a toxic person. Every little bit helps…

  13. Maite says:

    Lol… that sense of grandiosity is really over-inflated. You’re not all that. The years are rolling on relentlessly, you’ll get yours

  14. Quasi says:

    Oh my … this is a very, very clever article .. The narcissist speaking via emotional thinking amalgamated with ever presence, well that is how it reads to me anyway …. any which way, damn!!! Tis good ya!! ( I will just attempt to reduce my heart rate with some controlled breathing- bear with)

    1. Maite says:

      HG is awesome in the writing dept, seems like he could do with a moderator to remove the delusional bits. Bit more fantasy in his works than reality

      1. Quasi says:

        But isn’t that exactly what emotional thinking is when it comes to the narcissist- a fantasy? I find this writing style very effective in delivering Meaning and understanding- but it will always be about perspective !

      2. SuperXena says:


        I am not really following you: what do you mean by delusional pats? Can you give an example of one of the delusional parts you refer to?

        I think this post depicts very effectively the dynamic of the narcissist-empath . The addiction that is created, how it is created and most of all the impact on the person entangled with the narcissist and how the narcissist sees this dynamic under his perspective but not necessarily according to your perspective.
        I just pick up some statements from each paragraph to illustrate what I mean:

        Paragraph 1.

        “I am on your mind and in your thoughts. I am whirling around in that messed-up mind of yours. It is messed up. I didn’t do it. I didn’t do anything wrong. I never do. It was a real state before I even appeared. I just took advantage.”

        Depicts how the addiction manifests itself.
        Deflecting, lack of accountability and blame shifting.

        Paragraph 2.
        “No, you will be thinking back to that kiss as we stood in that park with the sound of the breeze through the autumnal trees. That first kiss after the days of flirting through text and call. That magical, marvellous, mesmeric kiss. The first of a million.”

        Depicts how the seduction was made and describes how the golden period was .

        “You can speak to me again and it will be just like before, all of the wonderful stuff. I will reinstate it in an instant because look, I have had a lot on…”

        Reinstallation of a golden period.

        Paragraph 3.
        “. I know you haven’t deleted my number despite the promises you have made to do so. You just could not bring yourself to do it.”

        How the narcissist relies on the (everlasting) hope of the victim that things will perhaps work out this time.
        How the hoover is made possible ( not deleting the phone) by giving them the benefit of the doubt and leaving some doors open.

        Paragraph 4.
        “I know you have thought through all the things you have wanted to say to me but feel that I prevented you from saying when I just disappeared and then ignored your frantic attempts to get in touch with me. Tell me how broken I left you. Tell me how your friends hate me too. Tell me how your brother is going to batter me.
        Depicts the devaluation process, the extraction of negative fuel ,the silent treatment ,the importance to the narcissist of either been loved or hated but never ignored.

        Paragraph 5.
        “…hands entwined around the shirt I left which still smells of my scent. You know you ought to throw it away or burn it but you just cannot do it can you? You still want that connection. “

        Describes how the Ever presence was installed.
        Once again , the narcissist is relying on the effectiveness of the installed ever-presence.

        Paragraph 6.
        “Have a look at my Facebook profile again. I did not block you. I would not do that. I want you to see how I am doing. Those messages are for you by the way. I am sure that the cryptic comments that I have posted with those pictures will have been picked up on by you and considered and reflected on. “

        Describes how and why he hoovers you through social media by trying to make you jealous provoking /triggering a reaction from you.

        Paragraph 7.
        “Come and see me. Help me. You are the only one who truly knows me. You know more about me than anybody else.”

        How the narcissist manipulates using the need of the victim to heal others and trying to make the victim feel special.

        “ will make the changes you want me to do and I know you believe in me. You see the good in me don’t you, you are the one who can let it out and help me. Please help me. I just need to be fixed and you are the one with the tools to do it. There is only you. Please don’t let me down. I need you. I will change. I will be better”

        Future faking, manipulative phrases ,false promises of changing ( “emergency” hoover to draw the victim back)

        Paragraph 8.
        Describes the narcissist’s addiction to fuel ( not necessarily “your”) fuel.
        “Berate me. Love me. Chastise me. Fuck me. Hate me. Contact me. Contact me. Contact me.”
        Denotes that ignoring them wounds them. They do not care if you love , hate ,berate (etc) them as long as they get any emotional reaction from you.

        So, which parts do you find delusional? Every paragraph describes thoroughly this dynamic narcissist-empath and I am sure one can find many more examples contained in this post to illustrate this dynamic.I just picked up a few.

        Perhaps if you read the book Exorcism (this book explains how the seduction, golden period ever-presence etc. are installed ) you will better understand the purpose of this particular blog.
        Knowing how and why the narcissists hooks a “victim” well, at least you can try not to be hooked again by him or by any other narcissist.
        After all: Isn’t it the main purpose of all this?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Forensic response, HG approves.

          1. SuperXena says:

            Thank you HG. You have been the teacher.

      3. Quasi says:

        Superxena you are awesome ! X

        1. SuperXena says:

          Thank you Quasi for your kind words.
          Best wishes!

        2. SuperXena says:

          BTW your pic reminds me about Salvador Dali. It evokes some sort of surrealism.
          I am almost sure you have seen Dali’s masterpieces?
          One of my favourites is ( speaking about narcissism) “Metamorphosis of Narcissus”

          1. Quasi says:

            Thanks superxena… yes I love Dali.. but the picture I am using at the moment is I believe a Beth hoeckel piece, she is amazing – if you like surrealism you will love her work. One of my favourite bands the future islands use her artwork a lot on their album covers ! This picture was on a favourite singles album 2014. I got the newest singles collection today with another of her pieces as the artwork- a headless lady in clouds .. I like your reference to narcissus, I was chuckling to myself the other day as I clocked for the first time that my favourite “going out” perfume is “narciso” by narciso Rodriguez… clearly that is why he was drawn to me, had nothing to do with my empathic traits … lol.. ( luckily it is not the one I no longer wear, thankfully as I love it)

          2. SuperXena says:

            Thank you for the suggestion Quasi.I looked at Beth hoeckel’s work and it is amazing.
            P.S. Don’ t wear that perfume anymore.

          3. Quasi says:

            It’s nearly run out superxena so Fate may have already decided that one for me..

          4. mollyb5 says:

            That’s my favorite perfume too !

      4. Em says:

        It all happened to me.

    2. Jess says:

      Exactly. Every word of this puts the ET on high alert. I’m not used to it anymore. I need a shower…

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