What the Narcissist Really Thinks When Help Is Needed





It is a well-recognised trait of ours that we do not feel empathy. We know how to showempathy. You and others have exhibited this on many occasions so we understand the facial expression to adopt, the tilt of the head, the appropriate body language such as a hand on the arm or an arm around the shoulders. We have listened most carefully so we understand the phrases to trot out,

“I’m sorry to hear that.”

“Is there anything I can do to help; it must feel terrible.”

“I understand where you are coming from, believe me and just tell me how I can help you.”

“I know how you feel.”

“I would feel upset too if this had happened to me.”

I have watched people like you in action as they exhibit their empathic nature and I have scoured the internet as well to gather a few choice phrases there also. Put all of this together and our kind is able to exhibit a convincing display of empathy which will fool almost everyone. You will see this false empathy exhibited during seduction when we want to show you how we are a kind, caring and sympathetic person so you will feel drawn to us even more. We know the correct recipients of this false empathy as well, the sick, the elderly, the stray cat, the homeless, the earthquake victim, the child with the distended stomach because he has not eaten for days, the earnest looking villagers crowded around a newly sunk well and so on. Yes, I know all of those who need some empathic reactions and I will provide them in front of you so you are all the more attracted to me. So that I fit in.

It is, of course, all for show. I do not feel it. Not at all. Not one iota, speck or scintilla of empathy. Show me a report of some tragedy and my eyes will glide across the text as I register what has happened. Inside I feel nothing. There is no response. I do not feel sorry for the people involved in the aftermath of the hurricane. I do not imagine what it must be like for them and how they must feel. Certainly I am intelligent enough to know how they must feel but I do not put myself in their shoes. I do not imagine what it must be like for them. There is no pulling at my heart strings, a feeling of upset, despondency or even anger at the injustice they may have suffered. Of course as you seek my response from alerting me to this latest disaster I will form a furrowed brow, shake my head and issue some suitable words to make you think that I care. That is of course if I want your positive reaction whereby you look on approvingly at my supposed compassion. If I no longer seek positive fuel from you then I will use it as an opportunity to provoke you.

“And?” is usually a good starting point for drawing a reaction from an empathic individual to something terrible.

“What do you mean and? These people are homeless and injured. They live on a small island and have no power and no clean water.”

“What do you expect me to do about it? They shouldn’t live there then.”

“What? Do you really mean that?”

“Yes. Their choice. They have to deal with it.”

This will invariably provoke a stunned silence or protestations. You may follow me as I walk away asking me how can I not feel for these people. You may express anger or outrage and naturally this is what I want you to do. The fact is I feel nothing. If I see a charity appeal on television I am unmoved. I have nothing in common with the people who are requesting help. I cannot identify with how they must feel in any way. It is a total disconnection.

The situation is different with those who I interact with and especially those who are an intimate partner when I am devaluing you. If you are ill and wanting some support and those three dreaded words “tender loving care” I do not feel nothing. I feel an overwhelming sense of disgust and revulsion. How have I come to couple with someone so pathetic and weak? Why did I agree to live with someone who is sneezing, coughing and rasping? They are trying to infect me aren’t they? Trying to bring me down to their level. I know what their plan is and I will not be duped. I see no reason why I should waste my time and energy dealing with somebody like this. It is a drain on my resources and there is little or no fuel to be had. Moreover, the sense of disgust drives me to get away from you. I cannot stand to see such weakness, such illness and such infirmity. I must escape it and thus I will disappear, sometimes with an excuse and often without in order to avoid this horrific scene.

When you are upset, perhaps over a bad day at work or an argument with a friend and you tearfully explain what is troubling you, expect to be met with a shrug. What do you expect me to do about it? It is your problem, not mine. Sort it out yourself. If you persist pleading with me to listen and to help you then I become irritated at your commandeering my time in this manner. Do you not realise I have much to do myself? I cannot forgo my own machinations and fuel gathering to play agony aunt to your whinging and whining. Your pathetic concerns annoy me and you will can expect me to berate you in order to further your misery so I at least draw some negative fuel from your upset. That way the situation is not one which will be completely written off. If your upset is even greater following the loss of your job or a bereavement, we will show no regard for your feelings and indeed exploit your misery during our devaluation. We will take this opportunity when you are vulnerable to extract further fuel. That is what matters to us. We feel the need for fuel. We do not feel any compassion or warmth towards you and indeed your selfishness in concentrating on yourself when you should be attending to us infuriates us. We will suggest that you never bothered much with that family member when they were alive so why are you now getting upset when they have passed away? You cry about your sacking and we suggest that you deserved it because you were not working hard enough. We will extract that negative fuel from your tears, your hurt, your frustration and your anger and once that has been obtained we will leave you to it. We have got what we want and there are other things, notably other people we can better spend our time with, rather than remaining with you and being subjected to your self-centred pity. We know you find such an approach heartless and abhorrent but there is no hope for anything else. We do not feel compassion or sympathy. There is no need for us to fake it because we can draw negative fuel, we do not need to make you like us or admire us and provide positive fuel. This is how we have been created. This is the cold comfort that you will always receive from us whenever you have a moment of need, upset or anguish. Deal with it.



  1. HG,

    I’ve been reading some of the comments about mids seeking consultation from you.

    Of course we’re all now questioning ourselves again but I noted your response that you did not want an influx of, am I one?

    I’m interested to understand what would prompt a mid to seek answers?

    Is it because they were in the infatuation stage with another N and they weren’t yet ready for the relationship to change?

      1. HG, when these mid-rangers who consulted with you claimed they had been abused, were they projecting most of the time?

        1. There is projection but also when the victim argues back, tries to assert boundaries etc as a consequence of the narcissist’s behaviour, the narcissist sees that as abusive behaviour.

          1. Yes, my MRN basically accused me of being abusive during my post-escape supernova – at one point he said I insulted him and at another something like ‘if someone is mean to you, you wouldn’t want to spend time with them.’ I can see now how long suffering the poor baby was! 🙂

      2. Thank you for clarifying, HG. So then is it fair to say that any attempt by the victim to bring the narc’s misbehavior to his attention would be viewed by the narc as the victim abusing the narc?

      3. HG, you wrote, “It depends on how it is done (confronting the narc about his bad behavior).” I understand when it is done with fuel, it will be challenge fuel and if done without fuel, it will wound. How can it then be done where the narc will not see it as abuse? Just to be clear, I am not planning to act upon this. This is educational only. Thank you!

          1. It is very hard to ask a question in a calm manner because once you get to the point where you need to ask questions, you are tearing your hair out and are a knot of anxiety. Also, I tried many times to calmly explain to MRN what was problematic about his behavior. He only listened once, and that was because I had just escaped again and he was hoovering me back in. He maintained until he was sure he had me hooked again and then he reverted. There was no possibility of negotiating while actually in the FR…

          2. GOSO. Only possibility. Bang, bang, bang into thick heads…that is what you are doing here HG. We all chatter on – what about this? what about that? It is all pointless in a way but as truth seekers and empaths we leave no stone unturned. We must drive you bonkers!!

      4. Hmmm I’m slightly confused following IL’s question HG.

        So what o the difference between challenge fuel and abuse(fighting back)?

        1. There is no difference. The narcissist may regard (but not always) your challenge fuel as a form of abuse towards him or her – it depends on the narcissist.

          A Mid Range Narcissist is likely to regard your angry questioning of him as you being controlling and thus a form of abuse – it is also challenge fuel.
          A Greater would not consider your angry questioning of him to be abuse, it, however, is still challenge fuel.

          Mid Rangers are the ones most likely to play the ‘abuse’ card as they are the ones who use pity and sympathy for fuel the most.

          1. This makes perfect sense now HG. Thank you for taking the trouble to answer in such detail.

      1. A mid range I assume! Certainly not in your calibre HG!

        This explains so much, his personality is exactly like my sister.

  2. HG

    So we know you are repulsed by weakness but what about when you see one of your supplies either ipps or ipss current or past getting stronger physically and emotionally during devaluation or post discard. How does that make you feel?

  3. Yeah Katie. He is trying to keep you on the shelf. He did it to confuse you for sure. ” Oh he must care to go through all this trouble”, then leave you right where you were before without even a “HI, Bye or Kiss my ass”. Had it done to me before but a little different situation. She was in a situation and called me after a silent treatment / discard knowing I would jump to help her and show her I cared. He is going to come back sniffing looking to cash in that great favor he did for you. Sure everyone at work was told how great he is, by him of course and how he couldn’t just leave you there all pathetic with a kid, and how you got no one else to bother to help only him. Great guy to the rescue I am!. If you can do it pay him back if you have not already. Send the message, thanks for your help that time we are even. Will not be able to throw it in your face when that time comes to cash in that favor. Wait for it, its coming.

    1. Hey, RJ! Well, the interesting part of this, is that I actually have way to contact him, to return the money. He very harshly discarded me for his much “better” replacement. 14 years younger than him. And my N, happens to be a married man already. Hes seemed to be over me for a while, even though he said the opposite. I think he was interested in keeping me as a backup to the new girl, but I wasnt interested in that type of situation. People keep saying, he will come back around. I feel very differently. I have yet to see anyone write anything, anywhere, about a Narc hoovering them again after they were disengaged. Not one story about that. I am a very attractive female, and he is not a very attractive Male. He has confidence, but, none of my girlfriends ever found him attractive at all. In fact, they all wondered how he got so lucky! But, I feel as though, after a year and a half, hes had his fill. He last spoke to me 2 weeks ago, as though hed never met me. Cold. Cruel. And that was that. We have each other blocked and I am ok with him being gone, and leaving me alone. I struggle some days with jealousy over the new toy. I wonder if she will be, or is, everything I’m not. Everyone says, she will be just the same as you. But, my self esteem feels differently. No one ever tells stories of them not working out with the new toy. No one ever says, yeah, it crashed and burned the same way he did with me. So, I struggle with these thoughts and feelings. A lot.

      1. Katie
        Keep reading. There are many who know and have spoke of the new toy not working out. Also many who identify what number they were in his chain which attests to the fact that those before them never worked out. There are those that stay with the Primary but they are never faithful to them and she gets the worst devaluation. She will fare no better than you. It is an addiction for narcs too and there is no hope for change.

        P.S Fuck paying him back for the tire. You owe him nothing, but you owe it to yourself to be free of someone who makes you feel like he did. No contact is his payment.

      2. Katie
        Your comment has horrified me! I don’t think you’ve read enough and gotten enough info. Ive been disengaged from numerous narcs and then had them come back. So have many other people here. And ive seen many instances of a narc leaving someone for another person, then lose interest and come back to the original partner – sometimes many times!

        Ive also read other people’s experiences of this here on the blog. Narcs do leave and they do come back, sometimes after years. Even if they acted deliriously happy with their new partner. It will go sour for that person, too, always – even if they pretend otherwise. And the narc will be on the prowl again, and where better to look than where they found fuel before?

      3. Katie
        WS is correct; after my father’s third divorce, he came back and hoovered my mother until he died (they were both narcs). You do not have to contact your ex to pay him back. NA is right; you owe him nothing and you should go NC.

        1. K, I have steadily remained no contact. I havent even flinched. Havent had to stave off the urges that I did have before. I am strong on that front. Completely. I stay in my lane, 100 %. I’ve taken the rejection as best I can/could. Ive retreated, and I wont give him anything to talk about further. He wanted me gone so badly? I’m gone. Just started counseling, and a support group. Doing everything I can to get back on track. Just keep wishing for the day to arrive, where hes not a jabbing knife in my chest upon waking up. It’s a deeply painful feeling, that the things and moments that meant so much to me–literally mean nothing to him. It will take time to fully stomach that, and accept it. Even though I realize its reality.

          1. Katie
            It is going to take a while for that jabbing pain to subside. All those intoxicating memories and tender moments were skillfully woven into the tapestry of seduction, creating ever presence to prevent you from moving forward and his ghostly tendrils won’t let go so easily as you struggle for release during this cerebral tug-of-war.

            He tossed those magical memories aside like they meant nothing, leaving you derelict in the aftermath. Keep up the counseling and support group; time, no contact and accurate information are the keys to freedom.

      4. I can tell you stories about it not working out with the others. My first narc I was with 5 years and we pretty much lived and worked together. This guy was unbelievably good looking. Yep after a long 5 years I was discarded. He hoovered me twice post discard then I met someone else fast forward 10 plus years and there he was claiming what a horrible mistake he had made and that he had always loved me blah blah.

        This guy never married. I’m an just one of countless relationships he’s had and they never work out

        Narc#2 married supposedly unhappily gonna get a divorce blah blah and yeah there have been several before me but oh no I was different guess what? I’ve been replaced just the one before me was replaced with me

      5. Katie,
        Here’s the thing, just when you think they are gone for good, they come back. Then they disappear, only to come back again.When you are finally over them and in a good place in heart and mind…that’s when they really move in for the kill. My experience anyway. They JUST DONT DIE. Eventually you will get to a place where you wish they would never hoover.And yeah why worry about paying him back anyway? I’m sure he took more of his share in ways from u.

      6. Katie,

        Unless they’re a Nomad, like HG then they Hoover if the HEC is met. My Narc hovered me 4 times in less than 2 years, he re-established the formal relationship 3 times as IPPS and IPSS (I was originally his IPPS). It’s always their choice unless you go No Contact. Eventually the pain and longing subsides, the love diminishes as none of it was real; it was all fakery and subterfuge. The best I can do now is wish him well, when and if I think of him. He didn’t deserve me then and he certainly doesn’t deserve my thoughts or time now…

    2. Windstorm, I didnt mean to terrify you. I, like everyone else on this blog, am just going through the highs, lows, ups, downs–that I assume everyone does in healing from this. Some days I feel on top of the world, that I’m getting past it. Some days, I dont want to bathe or leave the house. I try my hardest not to focus on the past, or what was. I want to find my peace again. I truly do. I am not speaking to anyone about him, I am not entering any of his “spheres,” as far as I can tell. Except MAYBE the one in his head. I dont even really think I’m entering that one, to be honest. I dont think this man would even flinch if I died. That’s how much I feel he hates me. And I never did anything. Anything.

      1. Katie
        Your comment caught me off guard and scared me for you. They really do ditch you, then show up again, maybe years later, often multiple times. And it’s just make believe or illusion that they are ever happier with someone else. Keep reading here. You’ll find other people’s stories that demonstrate this, too.

        The bottom line is that you can never really trust anything they say – good or bad. You have to analyze their words/actions for what did they have to gain for saying/doing them? They have a reason for saying that they’re thru with you or that the new person is better than you, but it’s not the truth. It’s either pretend for themselves or a way to manipulate you.

        And I agree with NarcAngel. You keep that money. You owe him nothing.

  4. From the paragraph beginning with (and?) to the paragraph ending with it sums up my ex-N completely. Every one of those phrases has exited her sleazy mouth at one time or another.

  5. The number of times I’ve heard “deal with it,” hah. Need relative silence because you’ve got a raging migraine, the third you’ve had in this week alone? The absolute fuck you do, they need to practice playing their electric guitar. Yes, now, of course now, why would they be playing it otherwise, hm?

    (No shade to musician-folk, I am a musician-folk, when the itch to play strikes you’ve gotta get while the getting is good, just… be mindful if someone’s got a migraine. For the love of waffles and digital tuning. If you choose not to be, know you’re henceforth cursed to a life of slippy tuning on your favorite instrument…)

  6. Victim-N sister’s standard response to an empathy-requiring situation (when facade is important) is “goodness me”. When the facade isn’t required she will laugh spitefully in your face. In her children’s faces.
    She and co-dep husband will fondly remember such times with “we wet ourselves laughing at your (insert illness/misfortune here)”.

    She’d only actually listen if it was information she could later use against you.Then you’d have her full attention.

    1. Caroline
      “She and co-dep husband will fondly remember such times with “we wet ourselves laughing at your (insert illness/misfortune here)”.”

      I absolutely can’t stand people like that and avoid them like the plague.

  7. This intolerant and harsh response by N-mother’s father towards his son cut deep into his little heart.
    My uncle was bullied at primary school for having a speech impediment, and would come home crying.
    N-grandfather would growl harshly “be a man!”, at the sensitive little lad. There was no explanation of what that was or meant. That was the extent of his fake empathy.
    Little lad grew up to marry an emotionally disconnected woman, & drank himself into an early grave.

    N-grandfather of course got no empathy from his own N-mother, so he didn’t know what it looked like to copy it.
    I have photos of her as a young woman, and you could get freezer burn just from the chilling look in her eyes. I never understood it until now.

    I remember my grandma telling me about her great grandma’s advice about her daughter’s choice of husband: “those cold blue eyes will be your ruin”.
    I bet that proved to be true.

  8. A few years ago I was at risk of losing my job which would have been thoroughly devastating to my life. After “listening” to my fears and anxiety, my N’s only reply was, “Do you know what I was planning on doing tonight, I was going to go for a ride on my bike, now it’s too late”. I made no reply to his comment. A few minutes later the N stated, “You know I love you”. Whaaat? Does he really expect me to believe he loves me?

      1. Yes Caroline, there’s nothing like the depressive loneliness of being with a narcissist. Their profound cruel emptiness is so much worst than going through life alone.

    1. Donna
      You should have taken the seat off of his bike, put a light on it, and encouraged that asshat to ride a marathon.

      1. That would have been funny NarcAngel, but the ‘bike’ he speaks of is actually a motorcycle, he does nothing that would require exercise, (and it shows).

  9. For goodness sake! Absolutely ridiculous and irritating. Inhumane and dispicable.🏴
    Best to turn away from such a deadpan fiasco.
    Urgh 🏴

    I think a good non emotional petulant remark I would say to that now is:
    ” You’re dissmissed” and show a ‘you are beneath me’ expression and a sarcastic smirk to show how laughable. (Though it is far from funny!)

    Thats What I would do.

    Then go off and help whoever… and be with the decent people that the world is full of.
    Yes they are still out there.

    It is a case of rejecting all this malarky completely. Getting rid of it.
    Cast it out.

    No decent person deserves to encounter this absolute travesty of a personality.
    Cruelty and unkindness… it just stinks.

    The End.

  10. See, I struggle with this. I was in a period of silent treatment and had been blocked by my now ex, about a month ago. I had my daughter in the car, and a tire blew. I called a couple of friends, and no one was available to get to us. One of my girlfriends reached out to my ex, and he promptly left work, came to my house, took the blown tire, brought it to the ship, paid for a new one, and had me go to the shop and have the new one put on. Continued to have me blocked, no contact again for over a week after. Talk about confusing. Didnt want sex, couldnt have received a thank you, even if he wanted it. Because he had me blocked. But, I dont view this as compassionless. He knew I didnt have the money to fix it. He didnt have to leave work, or waste his energy. I just dont know. This is too confusing. Too many damn games at play. And indont waste my life with game play.

    1. Katie, I could see mine doing something like this too as I would get glimpses of someone who is able to care but in a very masculine way, caring by doing something ‘rational/mechanical’ rather than by saying something ’emotional/from the heart.’ Also, because your daughter was in the car, it might have triggered something in him that you alone would not trigger. I think they like being needed in particular ways, but the fear of being vulnerable is so strong – something normal people cannot even imagine – that their actions in this regard are very limited. Hope this makes sense.

      1. Hi HG
        Do you mind me asking, is the fear of being vulnerable a form of PTSD for a N, in terms of intensity of feeling and being overwhelmingly compelling in driving behaviour?
        For example I who don’t like heights who rather jump off a bridge than lie down sedated on an operating table at the mercy of a surgeon (torture nightmares).

        1. Some may suggest that it is, vulnerability equates to being powerless and both must be avoided, hence our defence mechanism of narcissism activates.

          1. HG, is it accompanied by a deficit of trust in other people? Not just that they will disappoint you but that they will actively undermine you? Stab you in the back?

            It boggles the mind that the defense mechanism is so strong but the only time I really wounded my narc was when I inadvertently teased him about wanting my attention (pointed out a vulnerability – a need). I almost felt like beating myself up but I know I can’t walk on eggshells all the time with someone so thin-skinned underneath the armoured exterior.

          2. Indeed the paranoia is always there. How extensive it is depends on how fuelled we are.

          3. Ah, I see. Thank you. If you are low on fuel you will be more vulnerable and therefore more defensive. I get it. It isn’t really that different from ‘normal’ people – the more we are surrounded by those who support us, the more things bounce off of us. That helps to explain why narcs try to isolate their victims – kind of like making them low on fuel so the narc becomes the centre of their universe. Mine caught me at a particularly low fuel time, which I did understand when it happened and which is why I tried to keep it light (a ‘fling’), but now I see how he slotted right in.

      2. SMH
        Don’t forget THC! “We are programmed to receive.”

        This HG quote is located on Provocation: “We only give to receive.”

        It isn’t cynicism; it is logic. He doesn’t care, however, Katie got her tire fixed and she shouldn’t feel obligated to him. That is her residual benefit and she should just GOSO and go NC.

        1. But K, this gets back to the question of what it means to ‘care.’ As I said, I don’t think anyone is entirely altruistic. People do things out of the ‘goodness of their heart’ in order to receive something in return all the time.

          Something has changed for me over the past few days. As I become more comfortable with the rightness of my emotional thinking, I become less compelled by the narc, who I now just think of as a broken appliance 🙂 rather than as an evil person. Maybe it is because I blocked him and he is not in my face at the moment. But I almost broke NC a few days ago and wrote to him, and today it hasn’t even crossed my mind.

          I can accept that narcs take advantage of ET but my first instinct was therefore to push all of that ET away in order to be able to think like a narc and ‘win.’ In a way this blog paints ET as ‘bad’ and ‘weak.’ Anyone who engages in it is ‘corrected.’ But an empath who is interpreting everything through a narc lens is building a defense mechanism. It is only sustainable for so long and I don’t want to be defensive about the way I think anymore. Everything is not black or white. There are shades of grey, including with narcs.

          I am happier being what is normal for me and understanding human behavior the way I have always understood it. I’ve barely ever gone wrong before. Maybe I am done here. I don’t know.

          1. SMH
            ET isn’t bad or weak, it is more about being aware of it and how it impacts our thinking. When dealing with narcissists it is very important to understand their mindset so we can protect ourselves and, like you, I don’t want to be defensive for the rest of my life either.

            Narcissists are wired to behave in a very specific way and as long as we are aware of it and have no expectations, then it is all good.

            You will know when you are ready to leave, I think it happens gradually for most people and then you can come back and visit occasionally.

            I still have ET and hope but I trust my LT the most.

          2. Thanks, K. I agreed it is not bad or weak. It is actually a strength and I trust it as much as my LT. It is more human and I trust humans more than narcs.

            I think a lot of us cannot even know if our person was a narc. I mean here we are learning how to deal with narcs, without even being sure that we are! A lot of people get hurt for various reasons in intimate relationships without the other person being a narc. They used to be called assholes.

            I know mine was ‘different’ and weird in a way that I have never experienced before, and I’ve been with all sorts. But sometimes I wonder if I am ‘making’ him a narc. Know what I mean? I prefer to think of him as having a different way of being in the world and not have to learn a new way of thinking so that I can defend myself. Honestly, there aren’t that many people with full blown narcissism and I don’t want to be suspicious of everyone I meet.

            That said, I still enjoy popping in and finding out more. I’m just looking at it as a research project now rather than something so personal to me.

          3. You are welcome SMH
            Empathy and emotions are wonderful and can help facilitate communication in many beneficial ways and this blog is a sublime example of that in action.

            Many of the people on narcsite are fairly certain that their exes, friends or family members are narcissists based on the iterative pattern of abusive behaviour over time. Narcissists are ubiquitous and there are a total of 62 pathological narcissists in my family alone; sadly, I am outnumbered.

            Keep popping in so you can learn and remember, life is short so enjoy it while you can.

          4. K
            Ha, ha, ha! I should have known you would have counted them all! I have no idea how many I have in my family but it seems like about one out of two. I don’t want to get close enough or think about them in enough detail to be sure!

          5. WS
            Ha ha ha…I had a list of cousins, aunts, uncles and grandparents, after 62 I was so tired I just stopped. Four generations are represented in that count. It is no surprise that I turned my empathy off!

          6. I had to laugh too, K and Windstorm. I didn’t even know what a real narc was until recently. I probably have people in my life with narcissistic qualities (some irritating, some pathetic). We call those people ‘attention-seekers’ or ‘self-absorbed.’ But no one who is disordered like my narc. I really felt like I was dealing with someone with a mental illness.

          7. SMH and WS
            It is so unreal that it is amusing. I thought everyone was crazy or weird then, when I got older, I just thought it was all the drugs and alcohol that made them nuts. Now I realize that they are all narcissists.

          8. K
            I think it’s great that as a child you thought they all were weird and crazy. I always believed they were normal and I was crazy. I’m glad you had such confidence.

          9. SMH
            To be very clear, all of my alcoholic/drug addicted family members are, indeed, pathological narcissists. Sadly, people like to shift blame towards drugs and alcohol as an explanation/excuse for what is clearly disordered behaviour, however, I don’t reside in la-la land and I am not delusional. Any half-wit can recognize an iterative pattern of disordered behaviour over a substantial period of time, IMO.

          10. KK (K?) Nice to hear from you. Yes! It takes time to see the patterns, which is why this site is so helpful for those of us blinded or with no experience. Yesterday I was telling a friend ‘the end’ of the story – the escape, the hoovers, the wounding, the supernova explosion and she’s like ‘oh a psychopath’ (she didn’t mean me!). She would likely have spotted it immediately. Me? Nope. I have had a few alcoholics in my life but even those are hard for me to spot.

            I am off to Beantown tomorrow, by the way. I hope you are well!

          11. SMH
            There is another K on here, hence, the name change. I spent two decades with my disordered family members and realized very quickly when I found narcsite that I was dealing with a family full of narcissists, not your average alcoholic or drug addict.

            Enjoy your trip to Boston! I hope people are friendly and polite.

          12. Aha, KK. I did think the two Ks had really different voices. It kind of scared me there for awhile – split personality!

            I figured things out about my mother from this site too but she is fairly benign – just annoying. I can’t imagine having more than one narc in my life or even one narc anymore. But there are plenty of toxic people out there – they come in all shapes and sizes even if they are not narcs, so good life skills in general from this site. I am looking forward to Boston.

          13. SMH, K, and KK, I was getting all concerned about our librarian K partaking of the MJ right before back to school. I almost said something. But I talked myself out of it. I’m glad I did. Would’ve made a fool of myself! Ha ha. Wouldn’t be the first time.

          14. MB
            Ha, ha! As a retired teacher that was my first thought, too! I wondered to myself that her school must not have mandatory drug testing.

            One year I was “randomly” drug tested 4 times! – they only tested 4 times that year. It was the year after I’d left my exhusband and I was happier than I’d ever been. They swore it was completely random, but come on! 😄

          15. WS, I’m in HR and I hate it when somebody like you gets picked multiple times! I feel like it’s a “waste” and other people would be more valid to pick. They’re getting bu with it while we’re wasting our $ testing little miss innocents!

          16. MB
            Wasting government dollars! That’s what all government bureaucracy is supposed to do, isn’t it? Whenever a teacher complains about us having to do something time consuming and stupid, i always remind them, “Remember, we work for the government.”

          17. For the love of whatever you hold dear…its your RESPONSIBILITY to waste money when working for the Government. If you dont spend the money in that fiscal you dont get that funding in the next and keep the huge Ponzi scheme afloat. You can fall down drunk at work, grope people, scrap huge projects and start over only to do the same thing……but NEVER EVER fuck with their pots of money by economizing. Its the 4th rule right after
            1. Lie
            2. Deny
            3. Act surprised

          18. WS
            After you left your husband, you were high on life!

            MJ is legal in MA and they do not drug test teachers, however, I have to pass a criminal back ground check every three years.

          19. KK
            Alcohol isn’t even legal everywhere in Kentucky! No hope for MJ (although unofficially it is our largest cash crop). We just have to pass the criminal background check once when we’re hired.

            I was in a conversation with two other teachers Friday and I brought up when our lawyer told us all one year in an assembly on opening day, that we could be fired if we were online in a pic with an alcoholic beverage in our hand. I meant it as an example of extreme stupidity and intolerance. They both totally agreed with being fired for that because it “was just common sense.” 😑

          20. WS
            Christ, alcohol isn’t legal everywhere in the Bluegrass state!?! Opportunity is knocking! Let’s open up a SpeakEasy. I will run the whores and the numbers, you can be in charge of security, since you have a gun and know how shoot, maybe NA and MB can cover the graft, poker tables and the moonshine/liquor. JK!!!

            What teachers do on their off-time is none of my business, however, when my kids were in high school they could access their teacher’s FB and saw provocatively dressed staff, clearly buzzed, surrounded by alcoholic beverages. I didn’t think that was wise but nobody was fired over it.

          21. I agree KK. There’s lots of opportunity in Kentucky. But remember, they don’t take well to strangers in those parts.

          22. I read Deliverance MB, and the scene with Ned Beatty bent over a fallen tree has been seared into my memory…squeal like a pig!

          23. NA
            Ha ha ha…I am sure them hillbillies would love my purty mouth and my other purty parts. Paddle faster, I hear banjos!

          24. KK
            Hey, don’t run down the hillbillies! Just stay on the main roads and don’t be out after dark. 😄

          25. WS
            Warning heeded! I am a Yankee and I know enough to keep my purty mouth shut and keep driving.

          26. Windstorm, you’ve been a great sport through all of this Deliverance talk today! Although it wasn’t set in your neck of the woods, all of us that live in podunkville are painted with the brush of Deliverance. I cringe when I watch Moonshiners. Some of the show is filmed in the mountains of North Carolina and that’s not the image I want the world to see of my home state. We are not all like Tickle and Jim Tom, (who was so difficult to understand they actually used subtitles!)

          27. MB
            Thanks. Unfortunately I have all too much understanding. With me having taught 25 years in a very poor, rural school system and my exhusband a county prosecutor in a neighboring county, I understand those movies all too well.

          28. MB
            WS’s comment summoned up the memory of Deliverance and the Hatfield and McCoys, no worries, I know not all of you Tar Heelers are hillbillies. Have you read A Time to Kill by John Grisham?

            If you saw the Departed, The Fighter, Black Mass or The Town there is a lot of truth in those movies and I cringe, too, but most Bostonians are quite civilized and, sadly, the Boston accent is fading and organized crime is more high tech now and less violent.

          29. NA
            Christ, Marky Mark and that crew! I think they may be highly narcissistic or narcissists. I am going to recommend The Glass Castle and Deliverance to my Book Group. That will freak out the ladies!

          30. KK, sorry to read that your childhood was so awful. There is a special place in hell for people who abuse children.

            I don’t know why I never hear of The Glass Castle since memoir is my favorite genre. Do you know Mary Karr’s The Liar’s Club? All Souls (?) also stuck with me, as did Frank McCourt. Just Kids is lovely too.

            Sorry I missed you in Boston but I didn’t see a response – I figured HG held the comment back so we could not meet up!!

          31. Thank you for your kind words SMH

            If there is a Hell, I hope they all go there and roast.

            No worries, there is always a next time. I never heard of The Glass Castle until MB mentioned it and I have read All Souls and Angela’s Ashes and ‘Tis by FMc. I will check out The Liar’s Club and I will recommend that for my Book Club, as well. The books have been really lame as of late.

          32. KK, I started A Time to Kill and didn’t stick with it long enough to get hooked. I still have it on my kindle. YOUR Boston accent isn’t fading, surely?

          33. MB
            The movie wasn’t bad and it had a great cast. My accent is as thick as pea soup, sometimes I have to tone it down so people can understand me.

          34. Kk
            And your “paddle faster” made me shiver! No where more dangerous than out on the river!

          35. WS
            In the novel by James Dickey I remember the men trying to get away from the hillbillies in the canoe. It is an excellent book about survival, if you get a chance read it; it isn’t long and the suspense is epic.

          36. KK

            Oh that cracked me up! You actually think I would voluntarily read something full of suspense where people are fleeing for their lives!! Remember what kind of empath I am? 😝😝😝

          37. WS
            Don’t underestimate yourself. I read what you wrote on“THE NARCISSIST’S SOCIAL MEDIA LAWS – NO. 3”

            Embrace your dark side! It is a classic thriller.

          38. KK
            “Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.”
            – Yoda

          39. WS
            “In a dark place we find ourselves, and a little more knowledge lights our way.”- Yoda

          40. KK and NA, y’all so crazy! Purty much all I know of Deliverance are the lines you’ve quoted and the dueling banjos. I have attached a link of said creepy scene for your listening pleasure. You’re welcome.


          41. MB
            That is classic tale of survival; and James Dicky played a bit part. Google wikipedia and read about it. The book is in the 100.

          42. KK, the only reason to watch Deliverance is so you can get all the references to it. Kind of like Rocky Horror Picture Show.

          43. KK, That banjo dude creeps me out, but I’m glad you enjoyed it. Did you get a chance to watch The Glass Castle yet? The Woody Harrelson movie on Amazon. I assumed you haven’t had a chance yet since you haven’t mentioned it.

          44. Love dueling banjos. A bit of info about banjo dude, across the pond here, people refere to them as pumpkin heads due to family inbreeding, sister and brother, and so on.
            Deliverance freaked me the fuck out, period.

          45. MB
            Halfway through. It is good and I like Woody H, but It is difficult to watch. I feel so bad for the children and I wish I could jump into the movie and teach them how to fight back.

          46. KK
            I read The Glass Castle years ago. Wasnt aware theyd made it a movie. I remember thinking while reading: I understand this but who else is going to believe it? Turns out a lot.

          47. NA, I’m going to read the book. I read online that it is better than the movie. It always is. At the end of the movie there are some interview clips from the author (main character) where she declares that her father was bipolar. From what I’ve read, that diagnosis can be a catchall for things not widely understood.

          48. MB
            I finished The Glass Castle last night and I am leaning towards NPD and I think his wife was disordered, too. I might read the book. If you haven’t already, YouTube: making of Summer Storm by Joel P West. It was an “Ode” inspired by a poem that Rex wrote when he was in school (he won the contest) and BTW I think his mother molested him.

          49. K, yes his mother absolutely abused him in every way possible. She was a nasty bitch. A lesser narcissist herself. Rex was a very intelligent man. I’m not surprised that he won that contest. It’s a shame they couldn’t find a copy of it. I think he did the best he could by his family, but “it’s hard to breathe when you’re drowning in shit.”

            I’m not sure what was up with the wife. Maybe there will be more clues to that in the book.

          50. MB
            When I saw Erma try to molest Brian, my instinct was to take the bitch out. After that scene, I was so fucking mad that I thought it was best I take a break from the movie.

          51. K, it distressed me to see her hit her grandchildren in the head at the dinner table and their parents not do anything.

          52. MB
            Yup, that pissed me off too, that is why I think both parents were disordered. If someone hit one of my kids like that, I would have beaten her to death. Rage and violence are two of my narc traits and that is instinct. Completely thoughtless.

          53. KK, keep watching. It’s turns out ok. I hope your childhood wasn’t that way. I couldn’t help but think of you when I watched it.

          54. MB
            Although we were not itinerant, my home life was very unstable and I grew up in absolute terror and constant violence and my fear was so acute that I spent a good part of my early childhood freezing in place and pissing myself. The violence was horrific.

          55. KK, that is absolutely horrible! I don’t know how you can ever get past that and have any semblance of sanity, much less be the smart, sassy mama you are today. You are a princess warrior. One of many that hang out here at narcsite. I’m sorry you lived that. I don’t know why God gives children to people that don’t deserve them.

          56. MB
            My parents were fucking monsters and never should of had children, ever. They were so dangerous that I knew to stay away from them and, by the age of nine, I was on the streets were it was safe and I think that is how I kept my sanity. Also, they completely ignored me so I raised myself and that is probably why I am so sassy.

          57. MB
            The last time I indulged in MJ was the night of the Oscars. I had a yummy brownie then passed out, missing the entire event, and woke up to James Corden. WTF! That was one epic brownie. There have been plenty of times I have made a fool of myself, no worries! Just laugh about it later (self-fueling).

          58. Ha ha ha…when I woke up to JC, I thought: Oh shit! That’s the dude that HG doesn’t like and I immediately shut off the TV and went right to bed, minimizing any deleterious effects.

            Thankfully, no therapy was needed.

          59. All Brits hate him, KK. No idea why but probably because he is successful. I’ve never watched him on TV (Late Night or whatever) but I’ve seen clips of Carpool Karaoke. Loved that one with Paul McCartney.

          60. SMH
            I like The Beatles so I watched it for about 10 minutes last night and then switched channels. I don’t watch late night TV much so I am neutral on the subject of JC, but americans do love a British accent.

          61. HG

            Kk was high AF. It wasnt James Corden but rather Stay Puft from Ghostbusters.

          62. HG, why do Brits hate James Corden? And is ‘helmet’ the equivalent of asshat (or arsehat) or bellend?

          63. Helmer is the equivalent of bellend.

            He is disliked because he lacks talent, is self-absorbed, has a stupid laugh, piggybacks the abilities of others and seems to be fucking everywhere at times.

          64. “Bellend” didn’t make it any clearer. We don’t use that here either. But I did a lookup. Here, it’s a “dick head”. So much clearer now. For the record, I’ve got nothing against the guy. I am entertained at the multitude of ways HG insults him, however!

          65. SMH, funny video. We get a well rounded education here at Tudor U! Enjoy your trip. I’m sure one of the friendly Boston locals will help you out, right K?

          66. Justin Hawkins. You have to be a into glam, which I am. I’ve seen them live twice.

          67. Oh, you mean Brits are jealous that Corden is popular in America, making oodles of money, and came up with Carpool Karaoke? 🙂

          68. I think he is, though I have no proof. I’ve only ever seen clips of Carpool Karaoke. Loved the Paul McCartney Liverpool one.

          69. He must be popular here in the US. Even I’ve heard of him and seen several of his carpool karaoke bits. And that’s saying something because I’m in bed by 9 and basically live under a rock.

          70. HG – I think your comments here *contribute* towards his popularity…I’ve never heard so much about James Corden as I have HERE. Seriously. I don’t have cable and I didn’t know he was popular anywhere. Other than one tiny movie role (pre-Narcsite) I have seen, I had never heard of the guy.

            Just goes to show, even negative press will get you far…

          71. Haha – too true, KK.

            (By the way; there are now two of you named ‘K’ – is that correct? Hence the change to ‘KK’? Just wanted to confirm…)

          72. Tammy
            Ha ha ha…well, there you go; JC who? I watched the dueling banjos again yesterday and it is a great scene, and MB is right; the banjo dude is creepy. If you get a chance read, the book. The suspense is fantastic.

          73. KK and Tammy, I’ve never heard of pumpkin heads. Tammy’s never heard of JC! Him being cast in the movie as a product of inbreeding was smart. I would’ve missed that reference myself.

          74. K, the movie was enough for me when I was a kid. I even think it’s based on a true story, lol. That’s the part of the world I lived in for 6 months. My neighbors name was Avery and his daughters name was Averina. His wife was about 600 pounds…im not kidding…poor thing. And beer was plenty. And go figure, a local church would bring out snakes. If they bit you, you’re going to hell, if you live, heaven.
            Then there was me, couch surfing at that point in my life like I am now. And go figure I worked at a Mexican restaurant next to the graveyard.
            The thing that freaked me out was the ku Klux Klan had a parade. That was it for me. I promptly went back to California.

          75. Tammy
            The book made quite an impact at the time (1970) and if you haven’t read it, give it a whirl; I think you will like it. Sounds like you were in NarcLand: snake handlers, copious amounts of beer, the KKK and a 600-pound wife are all indicative of disordered personalities. GOSO was the right choice.

            It must have been a pretty rural area.

          76. I’ve never indulged KK. I’ve always been afraid I might like it ha ha! You’re feeling brave tonight mentioning JC.

          77. MB
            You would love it! I am not a regular user but I dabble occasionally. It is great for sleep or anxiety and I know my growers very well so I don’t have to worry about fentanyl.

            Ha ha ha…I try not to mention JC but I had to share the moment because it was a little comical.

          78. KK “You would love it.” Precisely why I’m not trying it. I learned my lesson with wine. I used to say, “fermented is just another word for rotten.” Alcoholic beverages were disgusting to me. I couldn’t even stand the smell. A wine tasting when I was 38 changed my opinion. I could’ve done without it, but noooo. I opened Pandora’s box at age 38!

          79. I think the School Board should be testing to see who needs MORE drugs and supplying them. I dont know how teachers do it, leaving their own baggage at the door, entering a room full of budding personality disorders (that guarantees at least one or two HGs or NAs), and tries to actually penetrate the skulls sat before them with some knowledge while trying to survive WITHOUT pharmaceuticals. Then theres the parents to deal with.……

            Of course theres always that one kid they say that makes it all worth while.

            I’ll get her in dodgeball lol.

          80. HG! I love the way you describe yourself, and I’m envious at how well you know yourself to do so.

          81. NarcAngel
            “A roomful of budding personality disorders.”
            Ha, ha! And we have six roomful of them a day! I’ll have to remember to share that one tomorrow at school! 😝😝

          82. Some of the parents are hideous, NA. There was an older (read: worn out bar fly) mother who was wearing short-shorts, platform shoes and a halter top (all of her rolls, ripples and tats were showing) who got into a loud verbal altercation with the principal in the parking lot. She made it onto my narc list.

          83. Absolutely NA! God love the teachers. Somebody has to do it. It’s a calling. And I respect those that serve.

          84. NarcAngel
            Told my colleagues your “roomful of budding personality disorders.” They said to tell you many are “fully developed and in bloom.” 😄

          85. LOL, MB. So I am not the only one to notice. I also didn’t say anything because if the other K was not our K, she would have been confused, and if she was, she might have been insulted.

          86. Ha ha SMH, nothing wrong with partaking of the devil’s lettuce if that’s your thing. No judgement here. I was just concerned about the librarian being pulled for a random right here at back to school time!

          87. SMH
            You and me both. I am trying to be very cautious about RSVPing on the thread: Questioning Me, because there are so many damn Ks.

            I completely agree with you; toxic people come in all shapes and sizes and they can very difficult to figure out. My IRL empath is either a CoD or a BPD and her behaviour became so toxic that I implemented NC, blocked and deleted all her phone numbers. Eventually it become’s second nature. Keep up the reading.

            The view of the skyline from Fort Point Channel or The Charles River is beautiful. Enjoy the trip! Sometimes, I go to FPC on Friday nights, maybe we can rendezvous by the Boston Tea Party and throw some tea into the harbor.

          88. What is with the Ks, KK? I just hope no one decides to take ‘KKK’!

            Yes, I love the harbor and throwing some tea into it with you would be awesome. I will be in Cambridge and leaving Thursday on a crazy northeast loop but if you can do it before then, let me know!

            I thought my narc friend was an empath. She is still my friend but now my expectations are quite a bit lower and I just take the fun stuff and leave the rest. But that’s easier to do with a friend than with a lover and she’s not disordered, just some personality traits.

            I am about to read Red Flags as I wade into dating again. Narc really shook my confidence in my ability to read people.

          89. SMH
            They used to call me KKK when I was in school. The Cambridge side has the best skyline view from the Charles. Let me know when you are in the city.

            When my “empath” gaslighted, projected and blame shifted me I got really mad and thought: You are NO empath; you are mental! And immediately I went NC.

            She was also paranoid, manipulative and obsessed quite a bit. WTF! I am leaning towards BPD.

          90. Thank you, WS
            Yup, I was confident that everyone was either a lunatic or an idiot and I thought I was the smart one.

          91. MB
            Yup! My family is rather large. Post WWII and the baby boom. It was nuts and I thought everyone was mental, except for me, I was “normal” of course.

          92. SMH
            I feel I should preface this by saying that I am saying this in a completely neutral voice and as a point of discussion so there is no misunderstanding of any aggression.

            Its not the fuelling up in the moment that is the concern. If a little fuel paid that act (Katie’s situation with the car) in full it would be one thing, but it is likely part of a larger snare. To a narc grey=crack, and a crack is all they need to slither in a tendril. The empath thinks: oh look he did care. He has changed. He did that one favor and expected nothing in return. This opens the crack further to possible discussion and contact and soon the empath is back on the hamster wheel. Everyones situation is different. Perhaps as IPSS and with your personality/mindset you can walk away and keep no contact, (I can do that also) but not everyone is in that position/situation and therefore the grey areas are dangerous. You said recently that you thought of him and almost contacted him but did not (good). That was after being out of contact with him for some time. Can you imagine how strong the pull might be for someone who has been in direct contact and has had something that appears kind done for them? Narcs know that and use it. That is why no contact it is presented in black and white, and yes, ultimately people do make up their own minds. There are many who can attest to the fact that having given a narc a second (or third or fourth) chance had terrible consequences, but I have never read one that evidenced that the narc changed or cared. I understand that people desperately want that to be true because it would mean that they mattered to the narc. Sadly that does not appear to be the case.

            Btw-I am not cynical about everything lol. Despite what you may think, I am not hard to be around. I go about my life and treat people as they treat me unless or until my antennae goes up. Then I pay careful attention and respond appropriately for me. It does not have to rule your life. Healthy people understand and respect that if a person displays some cynicism (not the standard and ongoing Negative Nelly) they are just establishing/maintaining their boundaries and are not threatened by it. Some cynicism is required here due to the subject matter, and to help people to question and use logic where emotion has previously failed them, but no one is suggesting that we should become so cynical that it takes over our lives. We just learn to move on and pay attention to our boundaries.

          93. NA,

            I fully understand that people are at different stages of the process and have different personalities and entanglements, but I saw the issue as being about care/need/compassion – not about whether Katie’s narc had changed. I assumed that she knew what he was since he was her ex. I did not read her post as being hopeful or as wanting to give him another chance. Maybe like me she is just trying to figure out the weird and contradictory behaviors. She has a right to do that. Hell, I’ve been on here for months trying to figure out every little thing. But I am more interested now in the disorder than I am in my narc as a person – he is just my example. I think the FB creeping did it for me. It’s just too asinine and childish. We have had much longer periods of NC, so something has shifted for me. It might be the case that others here too are curious rather than fighting demons. Maybe you know Katie because she has been here before. I do not.

            As for cynicism, people let it take over their lives because they’ve had so many disappointments, mostly in love but also in other areas, such as career. It’s not pleasant to be around (bitter ain’t fun).

          94. SMH
            Okay. I guess we are misunderstanding each other. I thought it was your wanting not to be cynical and to maintain a grey area that allowed for you to view that Katie’s narc may have acted because he cared and that belief may endanger you or others in thinking there can be contact without getting back into the cycle again. I did not read Katies post as hopeful but rather yours. There is another post by Katie that shows how he treated her post ‘help’. I’ll be 100% honest and tell you that as time goes on, it appears to me that the language and reasoning in your posts allowing for more understanding of your narc and his behaviours may be unconsciously allowing your emotional thinking to pave the way for contact again. You did say you had the urge to contact him recently, so the desire is still there despite what you now know. I saw the same pattern in another posters comments but did not say anything. She returned later to the blog and admitted that her resolve had slid slowly as time went on and she had a bad time after engaging again. I hope Im wrong in your case, especially in light of the fact that you expressed possible STIs and exposing him to his wife. Only you know how you truly feel.

          95. NA, I think I’ve lost the plot here. I don’t think I am changing except to normalize, so what seems like change on this blog is actually me being me, which is nice since I like myself the way I am meant to be. I have the blog to thank for that. I didn’t come here looking to change who I am. I came looking for answers so I could be normal again (not defensive and angry). When I arrived here I wanted to know everything to apply it to him but he was still in my life (it was post-escape but pre completely cutting the cord with the email purge I made him do). Now it is more of a thing that happened and the issues are more abstract to me. We live in different countries now anyway, so he does not take up so much of my physical or mental space anymore. I think what I am saying is that I’d rather be the way I am and take my lumps and bumps. Not immediately thinking the worst of people is part of that. If someone says that X did something horrible, that is one thing. But that is not what Katie said in her first post, which is the one I responded to.

          96. I agree with you SMH… I have always used and advocated for the use of Emotional and rational/ logical mind in combination. Repressed emotions do not help in the longer term. Emotions are there for a reason- they tell us something if we feel able to listen. we need to try and develop a way of hearing them, understanding them as best we can and expressing/ releasing them..

            Logical thinking is great and very much required to balance out ET. However does not stop you feeling, the emotions are still there, what you ignore can just get bigger and More difficult to deal with.

            Logical / rational mind is key in helping us decide how we choose to react/ respond to ET (again if we stop breathe and listen to it before we react! )

            SMH – do what feels right for you, like with any information and advise, you hear it and pick out what you think may work for you and try it, and leave what you do not believe to Be relevant for you. Your gut instincts are probably spot on too..

            I too have felt that Logical thinking is promoted more so here, and there is clear reason for This, and for a lot of people it is an immediate need to stabilise NC, or GOSO.

            I Am of the opinion that once there is a level of stability in NC then addessing emotional mind and hearing it Is fundamental to healing. How can we heal what we do not feel or hear. This is just my opinion though.
            I always used them in combination, however I was not in a primary role for him and only a short entanglement, so this was fine for me and helped me heal quicker.

            I always look out for your comments here SMH , they make so much sense to me and have helped me a great deal in my time here… our conversations were pivotal for me .. you also help many others with your support and advise. I just wanted to thank you for this.. Qx

          97. Thanks Quasi,

            Glad to see that someone understands what I am trying to say!! I should have known it would be you as your posts are always thoughtful and balanced.

            To me it is exactly about stabilizing. One comes here to get weapons for the battle, kindly provided by HG. Once one has wounded, sparred, gotten out, or whatever, one’s mind can rest a bit as the emotional thinking calms and one’s self gets reintegrated.

            I think what happens with narcs is that the ET goes all haywire, so we look for a different way of thinking and a way to explain it, but it often seems that people want to complete purge themselves of ET and live defensively because the narc has turned it into a weakness and no one wants to be thought of as weak. We hate ourselves for succumbing to the manipulations and letting our ET get out of hand.

            Healing is a battle but it does entail normalizing, and for us normal means letting ET motivate a lot of what we do and yes, trust your gut again. There is no reason to change our whole personalities just because of one person we meet in our adult lives. It’s impossible to do anyway. I was not primary for mine either. No idea how IPPS tolerates it, to be honest! I have recently had some questions about co-dependency because of that curiosity.

            I feel we are on the same page about a lot of things, so thank you again, Quasi, for your comments. I just shifted countries and have some family things to attend to, so have a big of adjusting to do, narc or no narc!! You seem to be doing well – I do hope so. xx

          98. Hi SMH,

            Again totally agree with you ..
            Weakness as with most so say negative terms is subjective and as such based in individual perspective.
            I do not see being aware of your emotions and feeling them as weakness, as it can actually take A lot of strength to be able to do so rather the repress then.

            I hope that the move has been ok, and you settle in to your new home and life .

          99. “I too have felt that Logical thinking is promoted more so here, and there is clear reason for This, and for a lot of people it is an immediate need to stabilise NC, or GOSO.”

            Completely agree. The discussion started over whether or not Katie’s narc did what he did out of an act of caring. The ‘cynicism’ and need for logical thinking I expressed in my response to Katie was in relation to dealing with narcs in general because failing to do that can have negative consequences in becoming entangled again and she expressed confusion. To question any motive they might have in performing such an act is only caution on one’s side. If a person comes up with none then fine, but alternatives can be offered and considered surely? This is in relation to dealing with narcs only because they have proven themselves untrustworthy, abusive, and with ulterior motive repeatedly over time. I would not be that skeptical with anyone else and I do not enter into other relationships or interactions with people with cynicism, but with both emotional and logical thinking which is balanced. Narcs are not balanced. As I said previously-being cynical (I know it as cautious) does not have to take over all facets of one’s life, but it sure is helpful in removing abuse and protecting themselves from those who would potentially do them harm under the guise of “caring”. I offered that response to Katie not to be mean but to present other possible motives he (being a narc) may have. Accepting them or discarding them is up to her as always, but I feel better decisions can be made when all the cards are on the table. I wanted to explain because a few have recently expressed feeling negativity on the site (I think more to do with their feelings about revisiting their own situation), and I wanted it to be clear that was not the case or intention in this situation or in others where it may appear as such.

          100. Hello Narc Angel,
            I understand.

            My response to SMH was linked to her coment to K, it just appeared a way down the thread. I was not commenting on the whole thread of conversation or even to Katie’s original post as you had all given her great advise already.
            I was responding to just this –

            “I can accept that narcs take advantage of ET but my first instinct was therefore to push all of that ET away in order to be able to think like a narc and ‘win.’ In a way this blog paints ET as ‘bad’ and ‘weak.’ Anyone who engages in it is ‘corrected.’ But an empath who is interpreting everything through a narc lens is building a defense mechanism. It is only sustainable for so long and I don’t want to be defensive about the way I think anymore. Everything is not black or white. There are shades of grey, including with narcs.”

            I agreed with SMH in that use of only logical mind long term is in itself a defence mechanism, and that combining logic and emotional mind Is important to being whole and healing.
            As always I advocate a combination when the person Is in a stable place In NC.

          101. Man o man, it’s good to get this site back! Everyone just disappeared for about a week, or at least it seemed that way! Thought I’d jump in and say thank you for saying the Emath is not weak, etc… even though it seems like that at first.
            I’ve been about 8 months no contact. And yesterday I put my red cloak on and went looking for him. I found out he moved back to long island…And really, it’s none of my business where he is or what he’s doing. We’re like oil and water mixed. And if I found him, what would I have done.
            Thank you, HG, and all here finding our way because of logical thinking. I was lucky to not be able to contact him. Now to walk the perimeter of my heart and mind and mend the chinks in my armor.
            Without you guy’s, I’m lost!

          102. Hey Tammy,

            Your doing so amazingly well, 8 months no contact is awesome.
            I have also had the moments of wondering how he is etc- I know where he is as we still live in the same town and I have been in his presence/ eye line since disengagement.
            But those moments I have thought of him can be reasonsed away with logical thinking as they are just thoughts.

            Mending the chinks in the armour sounds like a good plan, also working on what’s within the armour too. But for this you have time and you have support – always..
            it has started to rain here again, the thought of flying to Hawaii to have that gin and tonic on the beach sounds very appealing right now.. maybe one day lol..

            Keep looking up Tammy and know you can do what you aim to achieve, remembering that if you and the narcissist are oil and water mixed you can separate. Take care Tammy, and be kind to you.

          103. Huge cyber hugs!!!!
            I’m just glad you’re here!!!
            And next time you’re out for a drink, or even a home recipe, have a blue Hawaiian!
            I wish I had my own place to invite everyone over, but I’m couch surfing at the moment. But as soon as I can get my own place, you’re more than welcome to come relax at the beach with me😊

          104. Quasi, I just thought of something, in all honesty, I think I need to go back to square one, and say it’s been only a few days now instead of months. I did in fact find him, or info about him. Even though I never spoke to him.
            The last few weeks have been rough. I fell victim to my thoughts, wound up in the hospital, got out, no friend’s to help. You guys where gone, so I did the no contact suicide thing.
            It’s just bullshit in my own head, hard to explain.
            I even got on Facebook, more suicide, did another narc site and slammed for a comment I made. I’m here to put in the work. If I trigger anyone, it’s not my fault because they’re issues are their own. Just like if someone triggered me.
            I’m a mess. Too many gun and tonics tonight.
            I know I must sound like a loon. I’m learning that’s ok.
            And the hospital wouldn’t let me have access to my phone. Assholes!!! I think that’s why I did a supernova. Best place to do it? And I should have some cheese with my whine, lol

          105. Tammy,

            There is no divine right path to take when you are healing. You will be up down, upside down and sideways.. you looking for him means nothing now as he was not found.. the residual damage of this is in your mind alone and the self inflicted wounds that we cause our minds are tricky to heal but they can be healed.

            If saying to yourself right “ new day one, new start” feels right then do it… success is not measured in how quickly you heal or the length of time you have been in no contact for .. success is measured in keeping on trying and working towards some of the deeper healing your heart needs. There is no timescale for this- it is bespoke to you.. because only you are you! No other bugger gets to tell you.

            It does not matter how many starts, stops and loop the loops you do.
            The point is your courageous and resilient and damn strong to have trodden the path you have done thus far… and you can keep going, the point is that when you have been knocked down, you have picked yourself off the floor and dusted yourself off and said “let’s go again”… you are a fighter and you will win..

            You know what is in your mind, when thoughts come to you stop and breath and ask yourself is this opinion or fact- what evidence is there to suggest this is true – this will help shift through the thoughts and rationalise some that seem to want self destruct.. don’t give them a chance to take root..

            I do not believe you are triggering anyone lovely and you don’t sound like a loon, you sound like you are resolved to kick some ass …. do it Tammy ..
            Take heart, have faith in you and start again.. Qx

          106. Quasi!!! Thanks a zillion!!!
            We’ve had quite a bit of earthquakes here, although the volcano has stopped. It reminds me also there’s side effects for each of us dealing with our lives, including HG.
            It’s just bullshit.
            But, grateful for Everyone here. Seriously.
            It keeps me sober… from the churning of the emotional sea of shit. Even though I have my days…a lot coming up, going through some extra heavy therapy. I will be so grateful when it all evens out. Lol, I’m praying it does! I’ve been told it does, can, and will.
            Sometimes I feel thrown off.
            But I’m glad you’re here, Quazi!!! And everyone else too.
            I know I must sound like a fruit salad most of the time saying that all of the time. None the less, it’s true.
            Big hugs!!!!

          107. Tammy, please tell me you didn’t literally go looking for him! You don’t need that loser, girl. He’s somebody else’s abuser now.

            I miss the blog when HG is away too. Ain’t no sunshine when he’s gone. Welcome back, Sir!

          108. Yes, I did literally do the unhealthy thing. Im still pissed off at myself.
            But when I saw HG posted when I woke up, it’s like a blood transfusion and feeling happier. Lol, I think that’s as close as I personally get to understanding fuel?!

          109. No need to be pissed off at yourself Tammy. You’re human and recovering from trauma! Be kind to you.

            I, like you, get a sense of calm when HG is present. He keeps the chaos at bay somehow. I feel safe knowing he’s watching over us. When he’s gone for very long a tiny anxiousness creeps in. Weird.

          110. Tammy, We all break, our minds wander, and we miss HG when he suddenly disappears (hmmm, just like my own narc). Glad you did not find your narc – but I’m thinking it might not be such a bad thing that you tried and could not do it. Maybe that will give you some closure now. And I agree with Quasi. 8 months is fantastic! I have never managed to go that long (the longest ever for me was six months).

          111. SMH, thanks for the encouragement!!!
            And yes, 8 months of the emotional sea. And it sucks!!! And no matter how long it’s been for each of us, we need to congratulate ourselves!!!

          112. Quasi and Narc Angel, Thank you for expanding on this issue. I think part of the problem is that participants are at all different stages and have varying numbers of narcs in different positions in their lives. Ideally, I would like to get to the point where I can be in contact with my narc and not get the ‘feels’ – be indifferent about some things but caring about others, and that entails understanding as much as I can about him as well as the difference between logical and emotional thinking in a more abstract sense. I had a string of losses immediately after my last encounter with the narc. Those included a sibling, a best friend from high school, and someone I was dating on and off – all within three weeks of each other. It has made me see things a bit differently – that life is too short to be on the outs with people who have made you who you are, even if they hurt you. When I met narc, he was seeing a best friend through cancer. I realize that I never asked him about it. Am I too self-absorbed or uncaring? I don’t think so but maybe I am. No one is perfect and if he has a mental illness, well, I can cut him some slack. It doesn’t mean I will break NC but it doesn’t mean he is only an evil manipulative abuser either.

          113. SMH,
            I’m so sorry for your losses, and the heartache that this kind of layered grief can cause.
            From when I came to narcsite, I have to say that this comment has affected me more then any other, not only because of its authenticity, but I can feel your compassion. – that is strength.

            Your words about the narcissist who helped shape you are similar to how I felt about mine, as experiencing him ultimately made me a better and more real version of me, as you say -even though it hurt.

            SMH you are an Amazing person, who will find your own way, a way that feels right to you.
            You present to me as incredibly strong, authentic and compassionate. You will definitely find your way. Qxx

            ( please excuse the gushy post but when someone affects me they affect me.. this is the result … lol)

          114. Aww, thank you Quasi from the bottom of my stone cold heart :-). Your response is making ME tear up. It all happened so quickly. I was the main caregiver for my sibling in a different country – flew there and back within weeks of last seeing MR – and I have an extra youngster to parent now – two kids instead of one. But I have a pretty good support network and as a bonus I got to shut down exH (a lesser who also thinks everything is about him!).

            MR doesn’t know because we have not been in touch and I worry about his uncaring or non-reaction or his awkward attempts at empathy. But I have thought that my supernova outburst had something to do with the pressure I was under because of my sibling. When MR wouldn’t comply with a simple request, the knives came out.

            I once promised him that I’d be more direct and not bottle things up because these explosions follow. I did try but I did not tell him the main issue. This is why I find myself apologizing all the time. I don’t think it’s fair to blame someone when they don’t know the full story and one has not examined one’s own part. If they have a shitty reaction, well, all is fair. But if they are in the dark…

            I think I told you or K that around the same time I cut off a narc friend. We have now made our peace because I realize the limits. I see what she brings to my life and I appreciate it. Not all friends/lovers/family members are meant to be everything to you…It isn’t worth it to stress too much about one fucked up person who you know is incapable of being present. You just try to understand the limits and take them for what they are or reject them.


          115. Hey SMH,

            Your heart is far from stone cold .. please recognise and give yourself some credit in how you have processed your situation, and how you managed the rollercoaster you have been on.

            Your ability to reflect and identify your role and responsibilities is fantastic, and helps you to accept and move on. Your ability to accept the narcissists in your life for who they are, acknowledging they will not change is also all you can do if they are to remain in your world in some capacity.
            Part of the heartache comes through wanting them to be someone they cannot be, and they do not meet our expectations in this, because they can not be that husband, partner, parent , friend in the way we view those roles.

            SMH, even if you were completely open and honest with him, he would have still seen the information you present to him from his perspective and not yours. So if he knows the full story or not his reaction will be his own and may still be shitty… I agree with you that talking to him about your loses will be awkward and potentially just upsetting for you because he can not fake the empathy and responses that you would hope for When you advise of grief/loss, it will only upset you as it Will not compute for him.

            I think taking on your siblings child to care for is honourable, and that they are lucky to have you as a guide and support ongoing.
            We made a will only to ensure there is a legal guardianship set up for our children, we wanted to make sure that they would be cared for by people of our choosing.. my brother and his wife. I’m sure your sibling took comfort knowing that you would be taking care of their child.

            Take care SMH, and just Keep on keeping on lovely…

          116. Quasi,

            I think I didn’t tell him because deep down I worried that I would be disappointed by his response. I was angry at him that he wasn’t the kind of person I could tell. But still, he asked me to be more direct and I should have given him a chance. I’ve dropped bombshells on him before (lots of them because I have lots of them!) and his responses have mostly been engaged. It’s his actions that undo everything – shelving with no warning is the equivalent of a sucker punch.

            In any case, for empaths, thinking about other people and what they need goes a long way towards figuring out what matters in life, as you know from planning for your kids. I wish I could have made some sort of difference for narc, but it was a mountain too steep to climb… I’m not beating myself up about it. xx

          117. SMH,

            Deep down we know they can not be who we want them to be, because it is our want and not their want. Your gut knew that his response would be disappointing because your experiences with him had already given you evidence for this.

            You can question what you should have done or could have done differently? that is totally normal, but this could lead to a further question of “would that have made a difference?” I think your gut would tell you – no it would not have made a difference, not longer term anyway.

            You have absolutely hit the nail on the head with actions being the true message, words can be powerful, but if there is no real meaning behind them, nothing is felt, then you can think differently about them.

            His actions such as sudden shelving is what should be heard – hearing the messages in what is acted out is very important.

            So for shelving the action is telling you that you are able to be put to one side and you are expected to sit in wait because you are their possession, you should not have an opinion about being on a shelf, you should be happy, ready for action and provision of admiration and affirmation when they call… that is your function.. You are not bad, they want to know you are there just sitting and waiting.
            Shelving is subservience, it is their control and power over conditioning your actions. Shelving is training to behave how they want you to behave.
            It is a sucker punch as it is a control, a control that you have not actioned or agreed with.

            Know your value to know that your worth more.. and that you would not choose this again, not now you know what it means. This helps to strengthen NC resolve.

            I guess the question now is what difference can you make for you, and the other people in your world who can be present and real. No mountains to climb, or a sea to cross, no parting of waves, no ridiculous expectations of servitude!

            Oh just to be.. and be real


          118. Quasi, Don’t you know it!!

            For a long time I did not see the pattern because I leave the country every year for five or six months.

            In any case, all the deaths happened outside of the FR. I never ever mix friend/lover categories and I should not have tried to be friends. Let this be a lesson to me!


          119. Quasi, I just had a really bad run in with a cousin whose behavior has been completely inexcusable. I bit her head off. It made me realize that people do this sort of thing all the time. That’s why there are so many advice columns. Lots of people are just as inappropriate and non-responsive as narcs. Not an excuse. Just an observation.

          120. Hi SMH,

            I hope your ok after the run in.
            There are indeed a lot of arseholes out there aswell as narcissists. That is a reason why people can struggle to establish if they have been dealing with a narcissist or not. Although when you know more it’s easier to differentiate, but that can be said about most things.

            For both it will always boil down to avoiding the need to be in their presence or interact with them where possible. Especially if they have a proclivity to being negative, and generally unpleasant company.

            I can’t remember where I read this story so unfortunately I can not quote it or credit it properly, but I liked it.

            Essentially a lady was having a dinner party and a guest was being obnoxious, rude and generally unpleasant, a toxic person regardless of being a narcissist or not, maybe just an arsehole on the lower end of the sensitivity/empathy scale, just high in disagreeableness as personality trait.

            With grace and dignity this lady asked the person to leave the property, without hesitation, or thought that it would upset, or cause a disruption to the diner party, or that this “friend “ could or would make issues for her.

            Simply this lady was clear with her boundaries and what she would and would not tolerate in her presence.

            When she explained this she spoke of how coal miners would take a canary into the mines when they worked. As the workers were less aware or sensitive to change in the air quality when working in the pits.

            The canary would sing and do as they do normally but when there was an increase in toxic gasses such as carbon monoxide or methane they would show signs of distress, this was an early warning sign to the miners to get out as the air toxicity had increased and was dangerous. The canary would be effected before a person would be, so it was a early warning system for them.

            This lady advised that we all have a little bird that sings in our soul, and we need to listen to it and pay attention. When we are around people who are toxic, the bird will not be heard, when your bird stops singing, it’s a warning sign.

            I liked this metaphor, it is a nice way of advising us to listen to the gut instincts, this applies to anyone that causes a reaction.

            It also promotes having clear boundaries of what will and won’t be tolerated, and not allowing people’s toxicity to effect us.


          121. Nice analogy. I think I’ll amend it to my soul singing like a songbird when things are going well and stopping when things get difficult. Coal-mining part is too close to home for me.

            Do you know the poem “Hope” by Emily Dickinson?

            “Hope” is the thing with feathers –
            That perches in the soul –
            And sings the tune without the words –
            And never stops – at all –

            And sweetest – in the Gale – is heard –
            And sore must be the storm –
            That could abash the little Bird
            That kept so many warm –

            I’ve heard it in the chillest land –
            And on the strangest Sea –
            Yet – never – in Extremity,
            It asked a crumb – of me.”

          122. Hi windstorm,

            I did not know this poem.
            Thank you for sharing it – I feel warmed and heartened to now know it.
            It’s beautiful.

          123. Lovely, Windstorm. I did not know it either but it speaks to the optimism that I think is so important for moving forward and healing. Thankfully, I wake up every morning optimistic. As I was on my way out today, my building superintendent kissed my hand and we both laughed. When I am alone, I can’t let him into my apartment to fix anything because he comes onto me, but he’s a nice guy with a good sense of humor, and I can appreciate him anyway. I thanked him for being a gentleman and had a nice day.

          124. WS, I love the poem too. My favorite part is that the bird never asked a crumb. As you know, us empaths subscribe to selflessness. Only animals and mothers are capable of this type of true selflessness. (Most mothers I should say.) I’m sad for the ones that didn’t have that experience.

          125. Yes, Quasi, that little bird and listening to one’s gut, which I did with narc at first – dumped him after a month. The first of many dumps!

            I think cousin learned her lesson, at least with me, and she did apologize. I ended up saying that if my uncle were alive he would tell her to do what she had to do. If she failed, at least she had tried.

            Some people are really so self-conscious or something that it presents as a form of self-absorption – it is a form of self-absorption. I am self-absorbed in other ways but not in this particular way.

            It is indeed why one struggles to identify what is wrong with someone who is a narcissist. Very wise observation, Quasi. There are all sorts of reasons for particular behaviors but they don’t all lead to the same conclusion. It is one reason why this site is so helpful – HG picks apart the most ‘normal’ of things (eating dinner, going for a drive, celebrating a birthday, daily communication) and shows how what should be very straightforward – maybe boring, maybe not – always lead to a crisis in narc world. Plus, there is a very clear logic to the way the pieces fit together. Helps to separate the person with the personality quirk from the one with the personality disorder. x

          126. Quasi, I could feel that. You are a true giver.
            Something tells me that you need some time just for you. You deserve that.

          127. I agree Tammy. Quasi is a gem. I would like to add that her children won the mommy lottery!

          128. You guys are playing havoc on my emotional mind… yes there is gin in the system too…..
            My heart thanks you for everything.. big love xx

      3. Katie he did it to keep you confused. The more confused you are the deeper the hook. He’s got someone else but he’s not too sure about her yet so he must keep you hooked as back up “just In case”. He also did as facade management with your friend

    2. Katie
      Well he gets to tell everyone how he rescued you, and more importantly your child (good for the facade), he may also put the spin on it that you called him (enforcing to others that you wont let him go), it forced you to see him again and he hopes those feelings for him will all come flooding back (everpresence). He will also tuck that away to use on you and hold over your head in future (hoover). Thats just off the top of my head. Thats all logic. Dont let your emotional thinking cause you to start looking for the goodness and caring for you in him because there is none. Its all for facade and his own agenda.

      1. Yes. Exactly. I had that exact response from friends. That he only did it to look like the good guy, who “saved the day.” But, hey, it was $200 I didnt have to spend!

      2. You’re good at this, NA. You must have had a lot of narcs in your life. I hope I keep seeing the grey areas and am never forced to become so cynical. No one is completely altruistic, right? HG is helping and doing good here, for instance, even if is for his own agenda. For the facade? Maybe. Rescuing people? Yes. And good at healing a lot of people too. Maybe Katie’s ex really did care. I don’t think we or she can know and that is part of the confusion that narcs are good at sowing. To me that is the worst part – the confusion. Do they or don’t they care? Do they want to help or not? Therein lies the problem and I think Katie would do best to see that the confusion IS the answer. Her ex might have been fueling up but he still took care of her and her daughter.

      3. SMH

        They know between right and wrong. They know about caring but they do not feel it. They can be perfectly aware that someone is in a bad situation but they don’t feel it. If they can help and look like a hero they will do it it’s just it doesn’t elicited a feeling or emotion in them.

        This guy helped her because it worked for him to. He gets to look the the good guy especially when he’s smearing her.

        They are completely aware of right and wrong good and evil they just don’t feel it. He can ve cognitively aware that she needed help that doesn’t mean he had an emotion associated with it

      1. No, not at all. She just knew he would help, and I was in a bind. However, he did this, left, and didnt speak to me for days. Still kept me blocked. After doing something “nice.” He didnt tey to sleep with me, or even speak to me. Then he disengaged the week after. Smeared the new toy in my face. Told me he was seeing her, and detailed their sex life, showed me her picture. And of course, shes beautiful. I have been no contact since, as there is nothing left to say or do. I started counseling yesterday, and I plan to put this behind me. As much as I can.

        1. Good for you, Katie. I’ve often gone back to counseling and it is very helpful because it’s also good to see these things from a ‘normal’ psychologist’s perspective. The confusion IS the game, so all you can figure out is you. Maybe HG’s post Don’t Know What You Want will be helpful.

      2. Oh Katie I’m so sorry. The cruelty of these assholes is unbelievable. Is this guy married? And he has replaced you with a new ipss?

        I don’t want to hurt you anymore but his helping you had little to do with you. It was about maintaining the good guy facade with your friend and others so that when you start telling the truth about him you won’t be believed

        Just trust that he doesn’t give a rats ass about her either and she will suffer the same fate as you. I promise you it will happen

      3. Lori, thank you. I know. In my heart of hearts, I know. It’s not much, but, it’s been 22 days, and I have done nothing, but hunker down at home and work. Back and forth. I’ve gone out of my way to avoid him, even changing my morning coffee spot. He is is still popping up at the bar we spent time at together, but I have ensured I’m never there. He was there last night, according to close friends of mine who bartend there. He has tried smearing me, but, luckily, most people in the small town, know how he is. Except for the new “victim.” And, yes, he was married in June. The last 2 days have tested my will. I’ve broken down in tears. For hours. A common theme in my head, is “I was in less pain with him, than I am without.” While, that may be true, on some level, its sick and twisted that I should allow a thought like that to cross my mind. But, it does. Nonetheless. I have retreated, completely. I do wonder if hes noticed. I do wonder why hes prowling around our “spot” without his new supply. I wonder a lot of things. Constantly. I feel that this site is the only place that provides me any comfort, or relief. I want to be on the other side of this. I dont want this person in my mind any longer.

        1. Aww Katie, such pain. You will get there. I too went through a long period of self-imposed isolation and mine also popped up during that time, which I found/find confusing. What helped me was taking some responsibility and apologizing for things I had done, even if I was only talking to myself (I did apologize to him for some things). It didn’t cure me but it did help me to get to the point where I could see NC was the only way because he makes me crazy. Last night I saw a picture of him – one I had seen a million times – and I got super anxious and fearful. I suddenly realized that I was in fact in less pain without him, at least right now. It’s still early days for you. Is there someplace you could go for awhile to change your environment? That might help to get him out of your head.

      4. Katie

        The only real thing that you absolutely need to know is that he is a Narcissist which renders him unable to love or care for anyone no matter how smart of gorgeous or rich they are, it is impossible. You see you may not know who the person was before you but there was one and let’s not forget the poor wife whose husband is parading around ipss’s. Can you imagine what her life is like ?

        I have been thru this twice now once as an ipps and once as an ipss and I can only tell you that it will go away in time if you stay away but I realize it’s much easier said than done. Time and no contact is the only thing that heals this and eventually it does heal. I promise you and 22 days is a long time so good for you !

        You can trust that this new woman will suffer the exact same thing you are suffering. I guarantee it

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