Understanding the Narcissist’s Fuel Matrix



All narcissists have fuel matrices and you need to understand where you fit into that fuel matrix and how that particular matrix functions as part of protecting yourself.

This Logic Bulletin takes you through :-

1. The Fuel Matrices of all sub schools of narcissist. This includes updated and expanded information about the Upper Lesser Type A and Upper Lesser Type B Narcissists, plus the Middle Mid Range Type A and Type B Narcissists.

2. What the Fuel Matrices look like, their size, the nature of the matrices and who sits in them.

3. How the relevant narcissist of each sub school relies on the individuals in the Fuel Matrix

4. What the Virtual Fuel Matrix is and how it operates.

5. How a Long Distance Appliance fits into it the narcissist fuel matrix and how that functions.

6. Detailed descriptions of each sub-school of narcissist, their behaviours and actions to increase your understanding of the different types of narcissist. This is a comprehensive expansion which will help you understand a lot more about the way different sub schools of narcissist operate.

A fascinating and educational exploration of the fuel matrix and the interaction between you and the narcissist, this is essential to know how the narcissist behaves so you can ensure your No Contact Regime is as effective as possible. It is also advanced reading for those who feel they are well-acquainted with the narcissistic dynamic from their existing reading and consultations.

This extensive Logic Bulletin is available at just US $ 10 and is a bulletin you will read several times and refer to often and can be obtained here

106 thoughts on “Understanding the Narcissist’s Fuel Matrix

  1. Alexissmith2016 says:

    THank you Twilight and WS, both very interesting.

    My interactions with greaters have not been consistently long enough to establish that. Only one, who attempted to seduce me and it was very obvious from what he said that he was aware of himself and others but no, nowhere near on HGs level.

    WS, does he know that you know what he is?

    1. Twilight says:


      What told you the Greater knew he was aware of himself and others?

      My ex explained his perspective to me, I see it now as a way for me to open up to him and explain my perspective. He had never encountered a Contagion before me. That is one of many reasons why I know he is not on HGs level of understanding, it didn’t take HG long to figure out what I was, at first I believed due to only speaking via consults or email he would never pick it up. HG impressed me with his awareness and knowledge.

      1. Alwxissmith2016 says:

        Ah no, it wasn’t rude of you at all. I was just as interested and thank you for sharing. It was only that ws had shared her situation and that he was aware and they continued to meet. I was interested.

        I did have a work colleague I was friends with who actually helped me out a lot.

        He once confided in me that he was an N. He certainly has some nefarious ways but I remain unsure whether he is or he isn’t. I feel perhaps more borderline because he can also across as genuinely very kind. I feel like he is hurting a lot, he has few friends ans is not terribly charismatic. He doesn’t really tick the boxes of an N and certainly not a greater. He is highly intelligent so perhaps a cerebral but with others it is all too obvious with him it’s like he tries so hard to prove he is one and I don’t really beleovr he is. Back to your question.

        The one who attempted to seduce me, this was post HG, therefore I countered his advances but enjoyed the experience, he once asked me ‘I know I have a conscience, do uou’. I tbink he was perplexed because he had known me to be only empathic but once he attempted to seduce me I used a fair amount of N tactics to manipulate him in return. It was rather amusing.

    2. windstorm says:

      Yes, he knows. He has spoken occasionally about the counseling he had to go through for his alcoholism where he learned to have more cognitive empathy for the rest of us. He is much less destructive than he used to be. Probably the biggest thing that made him reconsider his behavior was dropping dead when his heart stopped and having to be brought back to life and the subsequent surgery and disability. He has gained a greater appreciation (my words) of those of us who are permanent fixtures in his life and who care for him and he actually makes an effort to be less purposefully hurtful. Occasionally we discuss this.

      We often joke about his narcissism and how he is viewed by those around him. He is very open about his dealings with coworkers and others. He makes no pretense of “loving” or “caring for” anyone, but does make an effort to help those of us who are important to him. He has always been that way, since I met him when he was 17. He doesn’t do golden periods. He is what he is and is very upfront about it.

      It seems absurd to say that I value our conversations for his honesty – because he lies like he breathes! Lol! Being deceitful and tricking people is one of his primary pleasures. But he is very smart, well-educated and very logical. If it interests him, he can be counted on to focus on a question or problem, consider it logically and give an intelligent opinion. I do very much value his opinion, because he often looks at things from a very different perspective than I do and his take on a situation often surprises me.

      1. Alexissmith2016 says:

        Thank you Ws. That’s incredibly interesting that he would value your loyalty and friendship.

        I mentioned to twilight, see above comment re a work colleague of mine who confused in me that he was. I remain undecided whether he is or not but he certainly values my friendship ans we speak openly about it and when he tries anything, I laugh and remind him exactly why he is saying the things he does to me. But I remain wary that this could change at any given time.

        It’s great that you can value his opinions.

        1. windstorm says:

          To say Pretzel values my loyalty and friendship sounds inaccurate. It’s all about fuel as HG says, not me personally. Maybe more accurately he values the loyalty and friendship of people in his life for the fuel and residual benefits they can provide him. If I were to disappear he would miss the benefits I provide, but not me personally and would quickly move to fill the void. He would feel sorrow for himself, but think, “Eh, that’s life” and move on.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Absolutely accurate.

          2. windstorm says:

            Thanks, HG. One of the hardest things for me to accept was that if I disappeared off the face of the earth, he would not miss me. Despite all our years together and the family we share, all the time we’ve spent together – he would just move on without a second thought. That was hard and painful for me to accept, but it also let me heal and move on with my own life and happiness.

          3. HG Tudor says:

            Again, accurate and honest WS.

      2. Alexissmith2016 says:

        Yes value was the wrong word and fuel absolutely spot on. Thank you for pointing this out.

        Two of the Ns I know HG whose partners have died. Both say, they miss the fact that they have memories of events and they have no one to say, ‘oh, do you remember when…’

        Neither made any other comment about missing them which o found a little odd.

        They’re 100% N. What would prompt them to say such a thing?

        Is it because they miss that aspect of their source of fuel? Who would have once given them positive or negative fuel for given memories?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Pity Plays and Triangulation.

        2. windstorm says:

          “they miss the fact that they have memories of events and they have no one to say, ‘oh, do you remember when…’”

          I think that’s one of my real values to my Pretzel. I’ve been part of his life since his childhood and knew all his family. No, I don’t think it’s because they miss the fuel. I think it’s because those people from their past were living repositories of the narcs superiority over others and over adversity. Also we understand and believe their stories because we were there.

          Sad as it is, as we age we lose the ability to shine in ways we used to. We’re not as strong, as fast, as brilliant, as beautiful as we used to be. Bragging about past things no one can see, when you have no proof is often dismissed and not believed. Having witnesses to those former glories is a great source of fuel to narcs.

          As example our children and other younger people tend to dismiss much Pretzel says about his former chess prowess as just invented bragging. But I used to go to chess tournaments with him. I actually remember him winning money at tournaments. I remember him playing 6 people simultaneously at a public park, him playing people “blindfold chess” where he never got to see the chessboard. I was a witness to things no one now can see and having witnesses of their former glory is powerful for narcs.

    3. Twilight says:


      I want to apologize for jumping in on a question you asked Windstorm. It was rude.

      1. windstorm says:

        I certainly don’t think it’s rude to jump in and comment on a question! I do that often if I feel I have something to say that may be helpful. Hate to think I’m perceived as rude for that – it would really screw with my self-image!

        1. NarcAngel says:

          I don’t consider jumping in rude (evidenced by my doing it all the time), as I understand that to be one of the main draws of a blog. That everyone reads the subject matter and then throws their opinion/comment in the ring is the lifeblood. No one says you have to accept the other opinions or even adress them if you don’t want to, but at least they are there for anyone they may resonate with. It would be awful if people did not join in because they felt their comments/opinions did not fall in line with others. That would not be representative of the whole picture and foster exclusivity, and that is not what this community is all about.

          I know there are many on the perimeter who read but do not comment for whatever reason and I encourage them to join the discussions. Share whatever you are comfortable with to begin, even if it’s just to say hello. Everyone has something to contribute and it is incredibly cathartic to be able to get your thoughts out amongst those who, although may not always agree, certainly understand. We want to hear you, but more than that, we want you to feel heard. Join us.

          1. K says:

            I agree with you and WS. It is an online conversation and everyone is welcome.

      2. alexissmith2016 says:

        Twilight, apologies I thought I replied to you. Absolutely no problem at all, it certainly wasn’t rude of you. More rude of me not to have asked you both x

  2. Alexissmith2016 says:

    HG, why do you think it is that the MR, in particular the UMR is unable to see they have NPD?

    I fully accept that it is because their narcissism prevents it and it is a self defence mechanism.

    But some MRs are equally if not more intelligent than some greaters and acheive a fairly high status, for example one of your good doctors.

    What is it that occurs to cause this self defence mechanism kicking in? Whilst a greater can recognise it and they are not in the slightest bit affected by their knowledge and rather revel in it.

    Would you suspect it is genetic, difference in parenting, something else?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It is unclear what the cause of this distinction is.

      1. Alexissmith2016 says:

        Thank you for your reply HG.

        I shall continue to ponder on this. I must leave no stone unturned!

        Is it only you and those you’ve educated who realise that some Ns are unable to recognise what they are?

        I’ve not seen any other reference to this. The little that is out there, quite frankly does not seem to stand up to much.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I don’t know, I do not read the material created by others, I have no need to do so, AS2016.

      2. Alexissmith2016 says:

        You’re absolutely right, you have no need to do so. TThere is nothing more accurate.

        Although these are your writings and your terminology, do you believe other greaters understand and categorise in a similar manner. Of course not with such brilliance but would they recognise the different types of empaths and that other Ns are unaware of what they are? And recognise those, who like them are greaters, albeit not using that term?

        AS2016 will endeavour in her mission!

        1. windstorm says:

          I believe other greaters understand these things, also, but probably not often on a level like HG. I know my Pretzel recognizes other narcs and knows when they don’t understand or recognize themselves. His terminology is limited to the 3 schools and in keeping with his personality: assholes, passive/aggressive hypocrites and the highly intelligent.

          1. K says:

            Ha ha ha…that was funny! thanks for the laugh.

        2. HG Tudor says:

          Yes they would, but would do so by differing description.

      3. Alexissmith2016 says:

        Thank you again HG. Thank you Windstorm. Assholes, passive/aggressive and hypocrites – I like that hahah but rather pleased HG is here to describe the details.

        Are you still with him WS?

        1. Twilight says:


          I agree with Windstorm.
          My ex recognized others. He is not close to HGs level of not only understanding his own kind, yet empathetic/empathic/empath.

        2. windstorm says:

          I left my Pretzel in 2004, divorced him in 2007 and have lived on my own since I left him. We have always maintained contact because of our families and jointly owned properties. We talk maybe 5 times a week on the phone and do something together 2-3 times a week, like dinner or a movie. He’s coming up here this evening to watch a couple “Death in Paradise” episodes on DVD.

          We both enjoy each other’s company as long as we don’t have to be together too long. For me that’s about 6-8 hours. Maximum we can stand each other non-stop is 3 days. By that point he will begin to draw negative fuel and I will have zero tolerance left to put up with him.

    2. wissh says:

      That’s a great question. I’ve wondered how the brilliant UMRN narcex can possibly not know at least that something’s not right with him.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        He may realise something is not right, but the narcissism will never allow him to realise that it is him – the narcissism will blame something else (which is actually part of him) but the narcissism makes him see it as something separate in order to maintain a lack of accountability and to maintain control.

  3. Supernova DE says:

    Can you comment on how the mid-ranger views his own sexual attractions to potential partners? I understand that a Greater may have some basic physical attraction, but also has understanding that a “good” sexual partner for them is one who provides the best responses/fuel. How does the mid ranger understand this within himself?

    Thank you, and nice legs btw…I’m totally jealous of whatever tropical place this picture was taken in!!!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you for the compliment.

      The Mid-Ranger will typically be passive aggressive with regard to their concept of their own sexual attraction. They will believe they are attractive (in a physical sense when Somatic or Elite and based on intelligence/character when Cerebral) but will make comments such as
      “My bottom isn’t bad, it could just do with being a little firmer/higher.” Thus they want the recipient to say “Oh no you have a lovely backside.” which of course is what the narcissist really thinks but makes the passive aggressive/pity play comments to draw fuel and validation.

      1. Alexissmith2016 says:

        It is quite unbelievable how deluded they are about their looks.

        A MMR I know who dips between being depressed And victim to being completely manic genuinely believes he looks like George clooney, in his words, ‘if only i could lose a bit of weight and I’d be rocking that look again’.

        He doesn’t, he could never, not even with all the plastic surgery money could buy.

  4. SuperEmpath says:

    The victim cadre is by far the weirdest narcissist I have ever been entangled with. He won’t meet in person and complains about having low energy all of the time or his illnesses and/or symptoms – well … then go see a doctor then and stop whining about it! That would be common sense which he lacks.

    I have been entangled with a cerebral, an elite, and maybe somatic narcissists (all mid rangers) as an IPSS – never an IPPS. But even still, the victim narc is just very strange!

    1. K says:

      He may be content with your online engagement and wants to keep it that way (control), also, he may not be a looker. He whines about his illnesses (real or not) for fuel-your emotional attention-so he will not be going to the doctor any time soon, if ever. He is just going to keep complaining so he can generate a response.

      Most of what they do is shaped for the purposes of achieving what they require. From our POV it seems like they lack common sense but from their POV they are getting what is necessary for their survival; fuel.

    2. wissh says:

      During my narc detector consult, HG said that some narcs can get all their fuel needs met online, apparently like mine, a cerebral UMRN.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        I figured narcs could get their needs met online but I didn’t know before being here that an empath could.

        1. Supernova DE says:

          True statement. But I think an empath can’t have ALL their needs met online – its too distant and impersonal. They also need proximate supply (ie friends family partner) for the hand holding, hugs, tone of voice, real intimacy. Just my perspective, and speaking from my own personal experience.

          1. MB says:

            Agreed Supernova DE, although I’m not sure I experience true intimacy with my partner. I’m exploring that now, but it got very painful and I had to give it a break. I do know that I need human interaction and a lot of laughter for my mental health. Online sex IS safe sex.

          2. NarcAngel says:

            It’s not safe to your mental health.

          3. MB says:

            NA, will you be my sister?

          4. NarcAngel says:

            I already am.

          5. MB says:

            Awww, NA! Let me know when we can have a slumber party and some raunchy girl talk.

          6. windstorm says:

            Mine too, both of you.

          7. MB says:

            Yes, Windstorm! You’re my sweet big sister too. There is a beautiful dynamic here. A bond among us all that is unique. This is a special place for women and men alike. I treasure my interaction here and consider you all my friends.

            And Tigerchelle, I’m sorry you’re having a bad day. Sometimes we all need to vent. Get that anger out. I hope tomorrow will be better.

          8. MB says:

            Or at least let me come up there for a slumber party?

          9. Supernova DE says:

            I agree, at least not when the online sex is with a narc.

            I know what you are saying. It is difficult to start delving into that stuff, especially in the beginning. I was able to do it because my therapist gave me small weekly “assignments” to do. Are you in therapy?

          10. MB says:

            Supernova DE, no I’m not currently in therapy. I’ve tried a few therapists for a short time but apparently haven’t found a good one. I don’t feel like they really cared about helping me. I know I have a lot of work to do, but if I’m being honest, I don’t want to do it. I’m doing fine without dragging up a bunch of shit and then proceeding to drown in it. Every time I start to do some real work, it just hurts and I stop. I’m an avoider and I’m ok with that still for now.

          11. windstorm says:

            Maybe not ALL, but it sure comes close!

        2. K says:

          Ha ha ha…no shit, huh!

        3. windstorm says:

          Ha, ha! Me either!

      2. K says:

        I wish they all could so they would leave us alone.

    3. Caroline R says:

      Interesting observations about the victim cadre.
      They don’t want to be fixed or healed as it takes away their livelihood. I realised my sister trades on this and all efforts or offers to help in a way that would produce change…HG said it well that they’ll wriggle out of it faster than the hand is reflexively pulled away from the hot stove. Or words to that effect.

      My friend (a self-assured intelligent nurse) used to attract these complete wasters. They gave her crumbs in return. They were utter jerks with no balls.
      She’d lend them money, and she’d have them staying at her house, and she’d have sex with them, as they were long-term boyfriends. They’d have so many excuses for why they couldn’t move out yet, couldn’t pay her back, couldn’t find work, etc.

      I’m reminded of a beggar I saw in the middle of the CBD in Kuala Lumpur one time. I asked my friend (a Malaysian native) “why doesn’t he go to hospital to have those open wounds on his legs healed ?”. Her reply was that he had no way of making money otherwise. He’s a professional beggar.
      There’s the victim-N right there.

      It was an unforgettable visual, as it wouldn’t happen in Australia. The paramedics would have already arrived to take him to hospital.

  5. Supernova DE says:

    1. When I address a silent treatment with “I know you’re mad at me…” and the response is “I’m not mad…followed by excuse for not responding”, is that gaslighting? Or does a mid ranger not understand their behavior to that degree?

    2. When a mid rangers fury ignites, do they know why (ie criticized, ignored, threatened)? Or is it purely instinct “she is wrong/treacherous and I must respond”?

    Thank you.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      1. It is deflection or it may be projection (dependent on what is said). It may also amount to gas lighting but the MR narcissist does not know he is gas lighting you because his lies are his truth owing to the narcissistic perspective.

      2. Instinct.

  6. Jessica C. says:

    If I may ask a question – would a Greater ever stoop to acting like a mid ranger temporarily with pity plays and affable/respectful demeanor, if they felt it was the best way to seduce a certain victim? Then later reveal himself?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It is possible but stomach-churningly disgusting to have to stoop so low.

      1. Clarece says:

        Really? Oh my. This poses a fantastic “would you rather” question.
        HG, would you rather – have to pretend to like James Corden and watch daily carpool karaoke videos with a new supply who loves them?
        Stoop “stomach-churningly disgustingly” low and act like a mid-ranger for a new supply source?

        Both for 90 days.

  7. Supernova DE says:

    1. Do you think a mid ranger is capable of recognizing they are “narcissistic” in their traits, while unable to accept NPD (because that would mean there is something “wrong” with their behavior)?
    2. Do you think an UMRN is capable of understanding and accepting NPD as a diagnosis?
    Thank you.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      1. Yes.
      2. No.

      1. wissh says:

        HG regarding your response to Supernova

        2. If he’s as brilliant as he supposedly is, why wouldn’t he be capable of understanding and accepting NPD as a dx?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Because the self defence mechanism that is narcissism cannot allow that to happen.

        2. SMH says:


          Mine could not (MRN, cerebral, very, very smart). Post-escape I told him he was a psychopath and then that for a long time I thought he had Asperger’s but he did not – it was a personality disorder. He didn’t react to the psychopath thing at all but to the Asperger’s he said ‘I might,’ and to the personality disorder, he said ‘we all have personality disorders.’ He then blamed me for being mean to him (deflecting, blame-shifting).

          He does, however, know there is something wrong with him. I am not the first to tell him that he seems to have multiple personalities and I am not the first to ‘hate’ him (his words, not mine). He also knows that he has limited emotional range and does not understand other people’s emotions – he told me this several times. He also told me when we met that he only ‘skims the surface.’ He knows (and he did warn me, just as HG says). He just does not know what it is and would not be able to accept it for the reasons HG gives. His narcissistic defense mechanism does not permit him to accept the diagnosis.

  8. SMH says:

    MMRN all the way. Wish I could tell him that he is just an average narc. It would wound him.

    1. wissh says:


      Thank you for that. How interesting, within the first few dates with narcex I told my friends about him, all the wonders of sex in the golden period, (after being widowed 2 years) and i specifically said that there seems to be something a bit off about him, and I speculated that he might have Asperger’s. 🙄 I later discussed this with my therapist also. How strange that I stayed another year and purposefully overlooked so much craziness.

      1. SMH says:


        I talked to my therapist about it too (and also stayed way beyond when I should have left!). I wrote it all out – why I thought MRN had Aspergers. Part of it was that he seemed to ‘miss’ a lot of what I wrote. He once said a message was like ‘Chinese characters’ to him. He did not seem to really understand figurative language, or he acted like he did not. There were other things that pointed to Aspergers but the two conditions have a lot of similarities – lack of empathy being the main one, as I am sure you know.

        But Aspies don’t manipulate (triangulate, give STs, etc) and they try to adapt their behavior so as not to cause discomfort to other people. Plus if I wrote, say, a very long email to MRN and there was a line or two directly about him, he would always find that line and only respond to that. If I wrote something demanding, he would ignore it or say that he did not understand it/me. He was very verbal, and when he wanted to – for instance when he was trying to persuade me back into the relationship – he could write up a storm. Or when we were in the ‘groove,’ he was very on top of things. It was his choice to put in as little effort as he could possibly get away with when he wanted to.

        I suppose he could have co-morbid conditions. One of his daughters is apparently ‘off’ and has problems with interpersonal relationships too. She is very science/math oriented, just like MRN. So there may be something to the Aspergers. But then maybe Aspergers IS NPD in disguise. I don’t think anyone knows.

        Also, being involved with an Aspie is no picnic either. There are websites devoted to the hell of being married to one. I just visited a friend’s exH, whom we both suspect is an Aspie. She never discussed it when she was married to him but he is self-absorbed, cold and clinical, superior, and other things that I never noticed before I became attuned to these conditions. My friend left him years ago but she still takes care of him because he is much older and close to the end. He has never accepted that she left him even though she has lived with someone else for years now. He talks about ‘our’ properties as if they bought them together and when she visits, he never refers to the time that she is gone. Very weird.

        I don’t remember HG actually writing about it but on one of these posts there is a discussion about Aspergers and NPD. I think Caroline was part of it, as was I. Maybe K (our resident librarian) can find the right link? Or if you put Aspergers into the search bar at the top maybe those comments will come up? I will look for you and see if I can find it.

      2. SMH says:

        Here is the link, Wissh (little Google trick K taught me)


    2. wissh says:

      So many interesting similarities, sometimes it’s hard not to ask where someone lives thinking they must surely be the same narc.
      HG did a narc detector for me and determined narcex is UMRN, cerebral. You said yours is “very, very smart”. Mine is also, he has a genius IQ and is a math brain, my first attraction to him was his brain before we ever met in person, but there’s no doubt there’s something very off about him, and I’ve come to understand it’s because he doesn’t really have any emotions, other than ones he feigns. Very little sense of humor and NONE AT ALL about himself. Like yours, he often also didn’t understand my letters, maybe not recognizing sarcasm, snarkiness, and nuances. I don’t know. I won’t even bother going into what he told me of his background because he’s such a proficient liar that I no longer know if ANYTHING he ever told me was true.

      1. SMH says:

        LOL, Wissh.

        A lot of us have wondered if we were with the same person. Mine was also very left-brained (also why the confusion with Asperger’s – extreme male brain). He is a scientist who moved into another profession. Someone else on here has one of those too. Perhaps there is a connection between the Aspergers/left-brained/genius types and NPD.

        Mine had problems with metaphors, clauses, etc. but he did have a very good sense of humor – rapid fire and ironic. That was one thing that kept us together. We laughed about a lot of the same things and cracked each other up. We could banter for hours. I even fell for him because he laughed at a story I told him. It was a test. Most people would have been horrified, but he laughed. We were warped in very similar ways and opposites in just about every other way. It was definitely weird.

        MRN and I share three countries between us. We met in one, where we both lived, and are citizens of the other two (he now lives in his country). Where did you meet yours? In the US? Which state? I pretty much know all of MRN’s haunts (work and otherwise).

    3. Wissh says:


      THANK YOU! Couldn’t find another reply link. I will check out your link when I get back later. Narcex currently lives in Michigan. He spent many years in Wash, DC. Like yours, completely math and science left brain, he’s a computer geek, systems analyst, software, programmer, whatever. 🙄

      1. SMH says:


        I swear it is their wiring and nothing can be done for them. Mine wasn’t emotionless but he did have a very flat affect/limited range except for the humor and the occasional cold rage. He was aware of his emotional limitations both respect to himself and to others but as someone here posted, you can’t teach a colorblind person to see colors.

        A lot of us have had a similar type to ours and they are not the same person. Mine is Canadian. He has lived in the U.S. but never in DC or MI. I’ve established with others that theirs isn’t mine either, though there is always the possibility that two people here had the same narc.

  9. Q says:

    I finally got my official Cluster B diagnoses: HPD with NPD overlapping and a secondary ( thank god now finally cured) codependency. 🙂
    Me very happy now that I know exactly where I stand. Now it makes sense. All the player vs player dynamic, the mutual frustration game, mutual fuel, mutual avoidance, his amazement of what he called “your surprising and amazing game techinque that keeps bringing me to extasy, over and over. How, were did you learn this” “Idiot, I didn’t have to learn it, this is how my brain is wired. If I want something, this is how my brain works. It’s just that you, idiot, you think you are so damn smart and you, idiot, are so much used to play your game on people who are dumber. You were an idiot who thought a woman cannot be intelligent. You were an idiot who assumed I am dumb just because I am histrionic. You lost your battle with me because you underrated me from the beginning on basis of my looks and my emotions. And you got your spanking, spanking, little boy. Back to your place. Go back to playing your game with inferior creatures, not with ME, with me you disempowered” .

    We were constantly mirroring and luring eachother, none of us having the final upper hand. Hell and bliss!
    Now it’s really over, because I feel and know I have won! Now I can fully move on and enjoy watch him spinning in the infernal circle of his demented life, forever trapped there, with me at a safe distance. No more emotional attachement to him. My HPD got over.
    I love this!
    HG, thanks, your blog, as well as Sam Vakinin’s were of big help in idetifying what’ wrong with him and, most importantly, with ME.
    Now I know I am in now way an Empath. I know I was not designed to be a codependent, but aquairred it latter in life due to family circumstaces and I really feel goood with my HPD npd personality. I can use it to succeed in life turning the downs in tools for my carreer. I loooove this!

    1. Lori says:

      So wait you were diagnosed HPD NPD and Codepebdent? First time I have ever seen that one. It’s is often cluster b s overlap. What is it you feel you weed cured from?

      I can say from my perspective of a diagnosed Codepebdent it’s pretty hard to overcome it. As far as I am aware Narcissism is not curable ? What type of therapy do you feel cured you?

      I will say this I agree with the fuel thing. I believe Codepebdents have the fuel thing like Narcs. Codepebdents feel quite powerful when they see they have made someone completely dependent on them. The Codepebdent needs to be needed and another person or groups dependence on them give them a complete sense of power

      1. Clarece says:

        Hi Lori,
        “The Codepebdent needs to be needed and another person or groups dependence on them give them a complete sense of power.”

        Is it for a sense of power though? Or is it for a feeling of purpose for their existence? I tend to think more for purpose which is why you can get so much care and consideration because they do feel full emotional range with empathy. But just an opinion.

      2. Lori says:

        It’s both. I have to say when I know I control a person or a situation, I do in fact feel quite powerful.

        HG will likely disagree but I find many similarities between the Codepebdent and the Narcissist. The main difference is empathy one has to too much the other none but both use it or their lack there of to control others

        That’s my take as a formally diagnosed Codepebdent

      3. Q says:

        Adlerian therapy and I think it is working nice.

    2. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:

      Hey Q,

      As a histrionic do you notice that you attract more somatic narcissists or the ones that are a mix of both (elite)? I can’t imagine you getting involved with a cerebral. I don’t mean that in the way of I think you lack intelligence – I think you would just pop up on the two other types radar more than the cerebral. I would imagine you wouldn’t be as effective seducing them and manipulating them and I don’t think you would be entertained by them so you wouldn’t have an interest or give a shit. lol

      There is some research out there I came across that said something to the effect of like most histrionic’s don’t even have a high sex drive. What do you think of that statement?

      From one tease to another…I say this with all the kindness and love in the world..be careful how you use that charm people will get the wrong idea and/or it could get you in a dangerous situation….

      1. Q says:

        It is a bit complicated, I will elaborate later. But: I come from a Cluster B family (4th generation). My husband is a cerebral middranger, my father a lesser, my brother a midranger. My Dirty Pleasure is/was a very interesting dark triad, imagine him like a factotum of narcissism, machiavelism and sadism. 🙂 I never go for somatic types, and I don’t particularly attract them, I usually fall for tormented complicated intellects.. Looks don’t impress me much, they just have to have that dark inner kick. The guys that are attracted to me nottice me first for my appeareance and histrionic stamina, think I am an easy histrionic pray and when they think they figuerred me out they discover my mind and my toughness and they become addicted to the combo. :)))) The more they know me, the more they like me and finally they are appalled/addicted to what they consider as a “women who shouldn’t be that smart”. I am not inventing things, it is what happens. If a guy is not very very smart, I am not interested. Normal guys are scarred of me 🙂
        The more I get into therapy the more I get rid of my codependency. I have huge loyalty for my clan, I am codependent only to people that matter to me and to get in that inner circle is a thing. Once you’e in, you’re in forever. One you’re out, you’re out forever. 🙂 The codependency + HPD + NPD make things very complicated for me. It hurts sometimes. I do have ethics and feelings, I do have empathy, but a different kind of empathy and it is not general for the whole world. It is also limited. It is not easy. Not at all. I will never be a good person. I will never be a normal person, nor will I ever be attracted to normal people. I will have to live with that. My first step is to get rod completely of codependency and then to work out the ration HPD/NPD to something bearable.
        Sorry, English is not my native tongue.

    3. Lori says:

      i gotta say you are the first cured one I know of. I’ll have to look that up

      1. Lori says:

        OH wait I see you are not cured perhaps I misunderstood.

      2. Q says:

        I do not think I am entirely cured of my codependency, but things have advanced a lot and I am much happier. I don’t think I will ever be cured of my HPD, and truth be said, I don’t really feel like I ever want it cured, because there’s where my strenght come from. I just want it tamed. My HPD is what makes me special. The NPD, on the other hand… that is my inner core, I have to find a way to live with it without hurting people and without hurting myself in the process. The HPD NPD combination is a bit difficult to handle, though. It gives ample empathy/cold empathy resources and they somehow tend to flow disorganised. I usually start my relationships in a HPD mood and after the initial flame, the NPD takes control. If the person I am involved with is granted inner circle status, I will never hurt them on purpose, I am not machiavelian, it gives me no pleasure in controling people I like or care about, I dislike inflicting pain except when I feel they deserve it. But insult me, step on my tail, just try to make me feel less than what I KNOW I am, just try to take advantage of me and I promise the devil will show up. And it cannot be stopped once it’s out. I guess it happens because I am a woman, not a man. Women are more emotional than men, even when NPD, so I guess our narcissism has to be and feel a bit different. From people I do not feel anything for, I get simple fuel from regular interactions (it feels good), from people I am attracted to, I get all kinds of fuel, positive or negative (social interactions are full of fuel situations and I enjoy it, I need it, I couldn’t feel complete without it. If the social-fuel is not present, it’s like something extremely important is missing). The more I am attracted sexually or mentally to someone the more fuel I need, but it has to be worthy, otherwise the interraction becomes pointless and my interest in the relationship dies. I don’t care for little things, like getting involved in something or with someone just to tick the box of doing it. When it’s about romance or major life things, it’s go big or go home. In the go big cathegory, the HPD is the lure and the NPD leads the game. I dislike the word supply. A supply can be a nice gentleman who gives a compliment, but not someone I work with, a member of my family or a romantic partner, they are different to me and other rules apply. Since from my great great father’s time, everybody in my family has been a sort of NPD and I married to a NPD, I have practically grown up among them, with them, they are what normal is to other people. I do not know another way of normal and when I tried what nons call normality, it felt extremely boring. That;s why, just like thieves who develop a code of conduct, I do have my own code of empathy and conduct towards my inner cirlcle. When it’s among us, let’s play nicely together, let’s not play eachother. Bro, don’t play narc with me, you are not my supply, I am not yours, I can play narc to you until we both drop dead. Daddy dear, same thing, Same to you, hubby. Lover, please, I thought you are smarter. You couldn’t really possibly think I am just an easy pray, that’s an insult, and it will cost you dearly.

  10. wounded says:

    Absolutely UMR. The steely gaze, playing of people against each other, the shocking revelations of his Casanova behavior, black sheep. And very, very manipulative.

  11. Orginal Overthinker says:

    Definitely elements of the 3 Mid Range strands in him.

    Strongest element – Lesser Mid Range

    Works with women, now seeing one of them secretly.

    Gains sympathy as has had Cancer so gets away with being moody (always was) has victim tendacies.

    He definitely doesn’t know what he is, when he was recovering he was trying to change or at least he was aware of something not quite right with personality. He said to me he had relationship problems with his wife, kids, parent’s, brother and the common denominator was him. I didn’t know he was a Narc then, thought damaged, unloved maybe with sociopathic tendencies.

    Know all this now (thank you) have the logical thinking, not helping with my hurt and emotional wounds. Looking forward to the recovery of that and then freedom. X x

  12. Presque Vu says:

    Interesting read.
    I feel even more stupid now because I put up with a LMRN – what the actual fuck was I thinking!!!!

  13. Renarde says:

    Thank you HG for this excellent writing as always as it helps very much with my own family situation. I was wavering on PatriNarc, you see. I was wondering if he was a lesser because his fury was incredible once ignited. It’s all there though; a MMR. I specifically liked;

    This person is intelligent and is likely to have a good job.

    Before he retired, absolutely. Intelligent too but underachieved, massively. I expect through sheer laziness.

    … the MMRN is an envious individual and is always looking to gain the advantage from covert and secretive means.

    He would describe himself as ‘cunning’. I found him to be extremly envious of my own academic/professional achievements though, which he would often belittle and denigrate to my face. In fact, he did this one too many times over the decades and that was one of the aspects over which I finally went NC.

    He is cowardly but will never countenance being called as such.

    Absolutely. I could NEVER imagine PN in a fight with another man.

    He is the archetypal architect of the silent treatment in all its forms

    Oh good God yes. His absolute favourite was getting into the car and pretending to leave us all. This would last aprox. 1 to 2 hours before he would slink back in as if nothing had happened. It was very damaging growing up with this kind of behaviour being meted out. It led absolutely to my own fear of abandonment which was then reinforced by Ns who like to use it in messaging comms. It was only YOUR work HG and how to counter the AST which finally freed me from it’s tyranny. If people want to leave you, let them.

    If it does appear, it will be shouting, spitting and slapping.

    Also a big ‘thrower’ and ‘breaker’ of things too. He did enjoy slapping a lot though…

    The MMRN will have an IPSS at the appropriate time. He is capable of securing the attentions of two IPSSs through a combination of intelligence and manipulation.

    When I became weaponised in Nov last year, one of the hardest and most disturbing aspects to all of this was that PN must have been keeping a mistress. I’m pretty sure she came from the workplace but after retirement, he was finding them on the web as well. I have no doubt whatsoever he kept in touch with his old workplace IPSS’s though.

    Should a tertiary source wound him, he is less likely to lash out at that tertiary source and instead more likely to triangulate the individual through the raising of a complaint to the relevant person.

    Heard tales of this often when growing up and ALWAYS concerning the workplace. We would then be regaled with these tales which enforced his calmness under pressure and all round superiority. PN was also incredibly easy to wind up. A fact which my brother and I would do from time to time when he became utterly objectionable with his supercilious nature. An almost complete inability to laugh at himself and his own behaviours.

    Another aspect to the MMR is repetition. Lacking the ability to ‘free think’, the same old phrases would be trotted out again and again and again. Like a broken record. Therefore, they can also be tedious. There is only so many times that you can be asked, ‘Did you hear Richard Burton recite ‘Under the MilkWood’ and the answer always be ‘No’. So much so, I refuse to listen to it. It was almost as if THAT was his own nod to the greats of British literature and therefore he was ‘educated’. I had suspected his limited capability to display little interest in the Arts so from time to time, I would show him this book, or that book I was reading and ask him, ‘read this?’. Answer, always a no. He was a prolific reader though. Usually crap SciFi. He hated Asimov though as he felt he was ‘being talked down to’. The only classics in the house actually now that I recall were two Bronte books and the complete works of Dickens (which he had never read and belonged to my grandfather anyway who at least had read them all.)

    In fact this is another strand to the MMR but maybe it not universal, I don’t know enough of them, maybe you have thoughts on this HG? He would lecture to me on a topic which was way over my head. This happened all the time growing up. He would take a sheet of paper and I would be expected to sit there, silently, whilst he would ‘pontificate’ on and on. I knew from an early age that just because I did not understand it cognitively was not a failing on my part. But it did make me feel very uneasy and on more than one occasion, I asked Mum to reign him in as it was making me ‘feel bad’. This would only last so long before normal service would be resumed. He never did this with my brother though. Always me.

    Then of course, it was used against me. Even now, to this day. If I assert a boundary, calmly and quietly, I am ‘lecturing him’. He then lashes out with accusations that I am a ‘school marm’. I just ignore it. He so predictable in his ‘fuel grabs’..

    The word ‘ponderous’ was used in the writing. Couldn’t agree more. Our secret nickname for him was ‘Barlow’ after Ken Barlow from Coronation Street. A MMR if ever there was!

    Great work,as always HG.

  14. Spiritual Warrior says:

    Dear Mr. T any thoughts or comments of the Doctor and his Girlfriend from Newport Beach of their drugging raping video taping victims of women. Him doing it for years. Psychopath? And her the girlfriend, Why? How did he find a women who would join him in this sickening crime? Why would she do this to women? This has been greatly puzzling to me. Thank you

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Mr T ain’t got no time for those crazy fools! Mr T don’t know those suckers!
      (Wrong Mr T it would appear!)

      1. Presque Vu says:

        Pahahaha! I ain’t getting on no plane Hannibal!

      2. Madam Gee says:

        LOL…Good one Mr Tudor, but methinks it may have gone over most people’s heads. Mr T from the A-Team was my crush in the 80’s.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I’m obliged.

      3. Orginal Overthinker says:

        Think more of Faceman… Mmmmm x

      4. Caroline R says:

        Ha ha ha ha!

    2. Renarde says:

      Ohh, I’m not sure that’s what really what went on. Judging by their mugshots, it is the guy who appears the most worried. She looks as cool as a cucumber. Both Ns, I would say.

    3. Q says:

      Spiritual Warrior, you’d be surprised to see how many cases like this one are. My narc’s best friend (geeeeeee, I absolutely hate this “my narc” phrase, it somehow suggests the narc and me are still having some kind of connection), so,the GN’s best friend, a psycho narc schizoid subtype of his own, does something very similar and his wife is helping him in finding, brainwashing and than taping women just like in this case. The wife has been reprogrammed herself 15 years ago, to the point that now she talks in the dialect the schizoid preffers and physically became an Annie Lenox clone, just because hubby loves Annie and he can’t have her. They even make money of what they tape, posting the videos on porn pay sites. And I’m talking about someone who works in a NASA project, not a jersey jerk. I’ve been friends with this people, ate together, drank together, they were charming, cultivated, intelligent, friendly. I was practically surrounded by them, dancing with the devill….. so, I don’t think I’ll ever be surprised again in my life finding out incredible things about people who appear to be regular or nice or candid.

    4. K says:

      Spiritual Warrior
      Why? Fuel, control, sense of entitlement and superiority, lack of accountability, conscience, remorse or guilt. I think they are both narcissists and he may be a psychopath, as well.

      How did he find her? Easily enough, narcissists are ubiquitous.

  15. Mini duck says:

    I am confused between emotionally unavailable person and a narcissist. Only difference between them is that one has empathy but can be selfish or jackass or a player type. But how are we going to know if they are just emotionally unavailable and treating women in relationship as a crap?
    Is it how they deal with non intimate partners and society? But a narc can also fake empathy and good manners. Why is everyone justifying and defending emotionally unavailable men saying that they are not malign, only distant? None of them will tell us why are they behaving like they do. Then why can’t we just call both types as narcs?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You consult with me.

  16. Newby 1111 says:

    I find myself nodding my head and saying, “Uh-huh” a lot when reading your posts. This one in particular, won the nods and topped the uh-huhs.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Are you Elvis in disguise?

      1. Newby 1111 says:

        Oh, I wear many disguises Mr. H.G.Elvis is not one of them. Ooooooh, now I’m all shook up.

      2. Caroline R says:

        Ha ha!

        1. Clarece says:

          I don’t think Elvis’ legs would look that good at this point in time. lol

    2. Chihuahuamum says:

      Elvis is alive 🤣 now im all shook up!

  17. Michelle says:

    I am pretty sure I’ve encountered nearly every level of narcissist in my life. My ex was a Lesser for sure — had a very hard time covering his inner rage. The last time I ever saw him, he became so enraged when I looked at him wrong that he had to leave a party to avoid becoming violent in public. That was years ago and I hope I never lay eyes on him again. It is the exception that he has a non-family primary source.

    My current entanglement is almost certainly with an UMRN. He had at least two IPSSs. I knew one of the other ones because we literally met the narc in the same room on the same day, but really this just provided a triangulation opportunity. She was quite surprised and jealous to find out about my close relationship with him, but I bet she’d be even more shocked to find out about the IPPS. I haven’t bothered to tell her because she wouldn’t believe me anyway; she has been set up to be intensely jealous of me and would think I was trying to trick her. She connected to me on social media for the sole purpose of keeping an eye on me. She is missing the forest for the trees, unfortunately.

    The fact that the casanova behavior would be a surprise is definitely true. This guy kept talking about wishing he could find “the right girl” and he didn’t seem like a player. He seemed — like all narcs I’ve known — like someone who would really appreciate a girl who would love him and take care of him, and then proved shockingly disinterested in maintaining the relationship itself, even as a friendship. He lives on another continent and refused to rearrange any of his routine plans to see me, even though it was the only opportunity in the foreseeable future. I had to accommodate him, of course.

  18. Ugotit says:

    I’m glad I’m not a narcissist I find it exhausting to be friendly and peppy and upbeat with every tom dick Harry and Susan I see everyday I recently realized all the narcissists I know go out of their way to be friendly to mere acquatinces (sp) just so they can maintain their facade, mean while I’m a good person inside but the majority of people who don’t know me we think I’m a bitch cuz I never smile or say hello unless someone says it first , I recently had a narc ( not The narc ) cuz he’s gone out of the picture forever literally have a meltdown cuz I called him a liar cuz he is one he literally went out of his way to convince how nice he is until.i apologized for calling him a liar even though he is one , only then could he relax , it was actually so sad to watch he literally couldn’t bear the thought of me calling him what he was I took my words back just so he would stop blubbering like a baby over it

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