The Errors of the Ignorant – No. 6


At the outset, the sex was off the charts. You would not describe yourself as promiscuous but neither have you lived as a nun. You have had numerous, if not extensive sexual partners and you know what works for you and you know what does not and it certainly worked with us. Now, of course not all of our kind are sexual Olympians, dedicated sexperts who are well-versed in the art of orgasmic sexual congress. You can discount the Victim Narcissist from such attainment straight away. Cerebrals, well they will talk a good game and will perform reasonably well, but as soon as there is no need to maintain, then they will not, but it would not be described as earth-shattering. Not all Somatics and Elites are necessarily going to make the world move, but most do and if you have been ensnared by one of these cadres then sex was sensational.

Then it wasn’t.

There is no interest shown in having sex with you or if there is, it is perfunctory and all about our needs and yours are just ignored, which is most bewildering after the triple A performances you once received.

Sex just isn’t the same. Not at all. It has gone off the boil and then frozen. The bedroom is an icy wilderness but oddly we are now ensconced in our bolthole until late at night. Some snooping reveals an extensive porn browsing history taking in all manner of different sexual tastes. You hear us make comments about other women or men (dependent on orientation) and people who appear on television or films are given an appraisal in terms of sexual appeal and what we would like to do with them. The libido appears alive and well. Just not with you.

You raise this turn of events with a confidante and explain how once it was all nosebleed inducing orgasms, hijinks from the chandeliers and extensive couplings through the night. You then details how you are lucky if you get a kiss. You offer that there appears to be no loss of interest in sex per se from us, our browser history confirms this, but there is clearly a loss of interest in engaging in sexual congress with you. Whoever it is you have turned to nods in understanding and pronounces that the way to get things back on track is for you to broaden your sexual horizons and this will put the spark back in to the relationship.

No it will not.

When sex is removed from the equation it is not the consequence of familiarity with the same body and the same techniques deployed that might affect the sexual activity of a healthy couple. It is not the fact that one or both parties is tired, stressed, worried the children will walk in, not feeling as attractive because they have gained weight/not had chance to shower/needs to engage in some pubic topiary etc. The sex has not dwindled through this common reasons which are symptomatic of a long-lasting relationship. No, the sex has been removed because it is not a manifestation of affection or love from us, but it is a weapon.

Giving you great sex is a weapon.

Removing that great sex is a weapon.

It is done to gain fuel and to control you.

Accordingly, your devaluation has occurred because your fuel is stale/not frequent enough/not copious enough and thus sex is withdrawn to provoke a reaction from you so you give us negative fuel.

If you try harder to engage with us sexually, if you suggest different activities be it role-playing, watching porn together, using different techniques, dressing up, introducing some kinks and so forth as part of this attempt to broaden your sexual horizons and thus introduce the spark into the relationship again this is what will happen.

  1. You signal to us that our withdrawal of sexual interest has really begun to have an impact. All we will then do is decide to maintain it. So no matter how much new and desirable lingerie you wear, no matter if you have chosen to wear your ankles behind your ears rather than the Chanel, no matter how hard you try to be seductive and alluring it will be thrown in your face for the purposes of extending your devaluation and your provision of negative fuel.
  2. You will also open yourself up to the exploitation of your now more liberal attitude. We will not accept what you have suggested but instead push it further with a view to finding some kind of sexual activity which we know you do not want to engage in but your desperation to please and to try will mean that you will go along with it. Dependent on your threshold, this might mean a threesome, group sex, water sports, rough sex, humiliation games, sex in public places, sex on camera to be broadcast across the internet and much more besides. Your reluctant agreement to engage in this will be seized on and you will be subjected to a range of unpleasant sexual behaviours which we will revel in forcing you into for the purposes of drawing negative fuel from you all done with the comment “You said you wanted to try something new.”
  3. We will see this as a green light to open up further fuel lines by getting your approval to allow other people into our sexual activities, forcing you to sleep with other people as we watch, or allowing us to plough a furrow elsewhere and then tell you about it. This will all be done to enable us to gain fuel from these Intimate Partner Secondary Sources and/or Intimate Partner Tertiary Sources and to draw further negative fuel from you because of your reaction to this. You will go along with it but because of your empathic traits which cater to decency, honesty and fidelity, your reaction will vary from quiet dismay to out and out horror at what we have been doing and what we expect you to do.

Offering to broaden your sexual horizons with our kind is to open yourself up to further abuse through the maintenance of the sexual famine and/or the imposition of unpleasant and unsavoury sexual activities as a consequence of our need for fuel and also the maintenance of control over you. Sex, owing to its relationship to love and intimacy for many people of an empathic nature, means it is  weapon ripe for exploitation by us. Where you receive the erroneous advice of the ignorant it will only result in further abuse and hurt for you.

To understand in detail the attitude of the narcissist to sex, Sex and the Narcissist is a fascinating insight into the sexual dynamic between narcissist and victim.






197 thoughts on “The Errors of the Ignorant – No. 6

  1. Berenice says:

    Hello HG! I have read Caroline’s comment and it made me cry. It is brave from her that she could write about it in a clear and thoughtful way. I cannot write about my sexual experience in this way because it is very shameful. I cannot recognise myself as the person that was dealing with the narcissist. I was totally controlled at that time. I was the one that broadened her sexual horizons and admitted unbelievable things. I protested, I retracted, but I kept going back.
    And then, I realised how horrible it was (never liked it, but I understood the game that I was being played). I just started to make it more difficult for him to see me, avoiding dates and delaying them, not answering phone calls, because by then I did not want anything from him any more, not even “perfect love”, not even remorse, not even talking, not even understanding, not even friendship. Nothing. And it was it, it is still hurtful as time goes by, I am further away from that position, but I realise how he controlled me, so it hurts, it hurts to have been there. It hurts to have forgotten about me in exchange of nothing.
    But I am here, away from him, mainly because of HG. Really, thanks.

  2. ava101 says:


    1. is it actually a red flag when someone says, he has lots of friends, and then says, many of them were women, and then says, many of these women were ex-girlfriends he had stayed friends with all of them, but they are only friends now? But speaks really well of all of them, though blaming them for the break-ups?

    2. And then says that I should meet his friends, but then plans a weekend _alone_ with his ex-girlfriend who was supposedly wanting to get back together with him?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      1. Yes.

      2. Yes.

      1. ava101 says:

        Damn it!
        Thank you!!

  3. MIn says:

    Hello H.G, a question, why a somatic who considers himself very good sexually would feel that he can not satisfy a particular woman? when the woman has never expressed dissatisfaction

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Likely to be Mid Range and using it as a Pity Play.

      1. MIn says:

        Yes, in fact it is mid range, but as a game of compassion? You are like a google of narcissism, it is incredible the domain you have on the subject

  4. SMH says:

    Hmmm, sex. Maybe I am an outlier here (am I?) or maybe I am deluded. I don’t think I have talked much about sex on this blog but sex was the most sacred part of my relationship with MRN. To me it is sort of off limits for bashing him because while he did withhold occasionally, could be selfish and did objectify me, he never forced me to do anything I didn’t want to do, he didn’t humiliate me, and he wasn’t kinky beyond what I was comfortable with.

    Sex was when he was most relaxed and when we were closest. I cannot really fault that part at all. We had our best communication about and during sex, and the sex was so powerful that I think it scared him. We could not even message without both of us getting hot, no matter what we were discussing. I remember every second of every sexual encounter. So does he. He’d bring up really intimate things and I’d say yeah, that was a moment.

    That is why each time I escaped and returned he would persuade me back into the FR no matter what I wanted – a friendship, just to say hi, etc – he associated my words, the rhythm of my writing, with my body and I associated his words and rhythm with his. We admitted this to each other. Maybe that in itself is fucked up but I have never had such chemistry with anyone as I had with him and I don’t think he ever had such chemistry with anyone else either, despite what everyone might think. That part to me was excellent. Even our last encounter before my escape, when we did not sleep together, was sweet, affectionate and comfortable. We fit together perfectly. Maybe it wouldn’t have lasted but if not, we ended things at the right time.

    I do think that he had serious emotional intimacy issues, insecurities, and had not learned to be sex positive, as I have. I think the sex shamed him. I also think my attitude intimidated him and perhaps made it easier for him to paint me as the IPSS whore. But still, he was most human in bed.

    Post escape I had to separate the sex from everything else because it was so confusing to have that almost holy part of our relationship when the rest was so messed up. I couldn’t deny the sex part, so I didn’t. I just put it to one side and said it had nothing to do with the rest. It really didn’t. As I’ve said elsewhere, if we could have just stayed in bed all the time things would have been fine.

    HG, is it possible for sex to actually be the most real and loving part of the narc relationship? (sorry to use the word ‘love,’ but that’s what I felt and that’s the only time I felt it). I was never manipulated, shelved, ignored or humiliated during sex.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It is real (you did not imagine it) but it is not genuine because sex is just another form of manipulation and of course it is not love.

      1. Clarece says:

        Ugh, I still get hung up on this part with the sex not being genuine at least in the beginning. Ok, I can accept it is not love and you can do the act without feeling any kind of bonding on your part to the other person.
        However, on the flip side you state that there is affection and fondness and initially in the relationship you will think you did find The One who will be different. So how can there not be true chemistry with those positive feelings attached to the sex for you even if it is technically infatuation? Infatuation leads to love on our side and is extremely powerful.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Since it is based on deceit.

          1. Clarece says:

            But you don’t even know that it is deceit in the beginning!

          2. HG Tudor says:

            I do. Even where others do not, it is still deceit.

          3. Clarece says:


          4. SMH says:

            But HG, you yourself say that the ‘deceit’ is not conscious unless a Greater such as yourself. If it is not intentional, is it even deceit?

          5. HG Tudor says:

            Not intentional but it is a deceit all the same. Let us say someone sells you a picture which is actually a copy of an original rare piece of art. The seller believes it to be genuine as does the buyer, but it is not. You have still been deceived because it was not genuine.

          6. SMH says:

            HG, I think that is somewhat splitting hairs. I understand what you are saying – that the N doesn’t feel what I feel. It may look the same and sound the same, but it isn’t the same. To me, however, that sameness doesn’t matter. If the painting feels genuine, if the seller and buyer believe it to be genuine, it is genuine until someone comes along and proves that it isn’t. Like every other market, the art market works in large part because people believe in it. Of course the N can suddenly turn on a dime, so to speak, and the bottom falls out, but until that happens, it is genuine, and that never happened for me, at least not with sex.

            Equally interesting to me is the question of how other people think and feel – what they think and feel. It is the whole puzzle of the human condition. We make assumptions but we cannot truly get inside someone else’s head. Not even empaths can. And part of how we navigate relationships is sensory. It is not all conscious and intellectual. Language might be a good analogy. Ns and empaths certainly ‘speak’ different languages. But humans find ways to communicate (gesture, facial expression, tone, word, touch) even across differences in languages.

            OK, I will stop blathering and get back to work. Thank you for your responses and congrats on your BBC interview! I look forward to listening!

          7. MB says:

            But the art is still beautiful to both buyer and seller.

          8. HG Tudor says:

            So is the golden period but it still is not genuine.

          9. MB says:

            Touché. But it just feels so damn good while it lasts. It looks like love and it feels like love for a while.

        2. SMH says:

          Clarece, I am with you here. I think the issue is intimacy, so things start out with affection and fondness, and then they pull away because it’s too vulnerable and close for comfort. Mine was superb at approach/avoid, but when he was in approach mode, he was completely present and real (if not genuine, as HG would have it). Sex brought something more/different to the relationship, and it had to do with infatuation/ feelings/something genuine (yes).

          1. Clarece says:

            Yes, yes, the missing link in that chain – INTIMACY. Although it’s still so lopsided for me because we are becoming so attached to them through the continued sex and togetherness and we are exposing our intimate, vulnerable side.And for the majority of Narcs who are unaware, they in turn, think they have been intimate and attached.

          2. SMH says:

            Clarece, I think I read somewhere that there is a difference between attachment and bonding, but now I can only find it in relation to infants. Maybe it is that the N can attach but not bond whereas empaths can do both? We might mistake attachment for bonding. But still, it would mean the N can attach, just not consistently and fully, while the “genuine” part – the bonding – wasn’t there.

          3. Clarece says:

            Oh I have so much to say on the attachment vs bonding debate but need more time. I will come back to this tomorrow SMH!!

          4. SMH says:

            Thanks, Clarece. I look forward to reading you tomorrow!

          5. windstorm says:

            I think you’re right about attachment vs bonding. Attachment makes me think about HGs analogy that we are all just appliances that he attaches or bolts on. They can attach, but they can never really bond in the deeper sense.

          6. SMH says:


            Exactly. I can be avoidant and some people might even say that I do not bond but I was no match for him. He made me very anxious with his avoidant attachment style. That said, I am the one who left the relationship five times (didn’t go back the last time). That must be my anxious-avoidance speaking. I have left relationships before but never gone back. Maybe we are both avoidants but he pathologically so and me anxiously so. No idea but whatever it was, it was toxic.

      2. SMH says:

        HG, Thanks. Of course love is my ET.

        Do you mean real in the sense that it was fuel to him?
        But not genuine in the sense that there were no feelings behind it for him?

        Let me flip it around and ask it another way:
        Why was sex NOT a part of my N’s broader tactics when it is so obvious a tool in an intimate relationship?

        He could have used sex to manipulate, abuse, brutalize, but he did not. Why not?

      3. Fuel on the Shelf says:


        “I think the issue is intimacy, so things start out with affection and fondness, and then they pull away because it’s too vulnerable and close for comfort. Mine was superb at approach/avoid, but when he was in approach mode, he was completely present and real”

        This makes so much sense to me based on the current status of events at the moment. The pull away and freak out at being too close.

    2. amanda SNapchat says:

      this was very interedting to read. thanks for sharing

      1. SMH says:

        You’re welcome, Amanda. I really wondered if I was the only one when I read all the comments, but I suspect there are others here who have not experienced sex as brutality with their N.

      2. MIn says:

        My somatic was always super respectful and affectionate with me in sex, of course, I was an IPSS, however I know that with IPPS he was totally abusive

        1. SMH says:

          Ah, interesting, Min. I was also IPSS and maybe mine was abusive with IPPS. I don’t know.

      3. Caroline says:

        SMH, Min
        I’m pleased for you that you had good intimate experiences with your somatic ex-Ns.
        I’d find it extremely difficult to get over the addiction if mine was good to well done to you for your efforts at no contact.

        MB, Clarece, SMH, Windstorm, Min, amanda s, & Tappi T
        My recent ex-N was a somatic mid-ranger. I was astonished by HG’s description of him in ‘Sex and the N’, mine followed that script of how they think behave and speak.
        I was making him wait until I had a commitment, and some baseline demonstration of respect and trustworthiness on his part because I need emotional safety. I want it to be about love. I can’t feel much unless I feel safe.
        In reality, the relationship was all on his terms, and so he raped me, but I thought at the time he was going to kill me. It was terrifying, and he just got off on my terror.
        I heard a continuous monologue coming from him of how good it feels and how great his performance was, in real time. And him calling me “baby” which made it seem like he was talking about someone else. Talking to someone else, but not me. Then again, I’d dissociated somewhat from the terror. I was observing myself from a distance, and not making conscious choices to behave in certain ways, i was on autopilot.

        Afterwards he said “I can’t say I love you, that takes time”.
        1) he proved he didn’t love me, saying anything was redundant
        2) I think he knew he can’t love anyone. I think those words were a rare moment of honesty, that is why he behaves deceitfully. He doesn’t care that he can’t love, but he’ll keep it hidden from new prospects.

        The “that takes time” part was just him mimicking me; I would say to him “we’re getting to know one another, we’re building trust, and that’s a good thing; trust takes time”.
        3) it was despicable and cruel.
        I was invited to his house under false pretenses.

        I thought at first his love seems strange and over zealous, but reasoned that’s obviously what he thinks it is. I now think he knows it’s not real, doesn’t care, and it’s the next best thing to meeting his needs for human connection:
        (1) control through dangling prospect of love at vulnerable other,
        (2) hijacking the female’s brain chemistry (oxytocin) to hold her hostage in addiction,
        (3) getting her attention/admiration/words of love/touch/acts of service (whatever brings comfort, validation, and significance to the N) and delaying her leaving (after she becomes wise to the truth) through creating drama and being deliberately obscure about intentions.
        = FUEL.

        We both had said that we weren’t looking for meaningless sex, but he probably said what he thought I wanted to hear. All sex is meaningless sex to him. No connection, no bonding with, no respect for the other.

        The next script he followed was the one outlined in the article about why he won’t answer my calls (can’t remember the title exactly, don’t want to misquote it). He even told me he’d dropped his phone so it wasn’t working properly. It was his work phone and he’s a sales manager, so it’s all BS.

        (So many things trigger the memories and make me cry, and I think about it all the time, so I might as well be here working through it where others understand. Some tree branches caught me by my hair last week and I had to breathe and talk myself down from a sudden near panic attack while I untangled myself).

        1. windstorm says:

          I’m very sorry to hear that you are still so haunted by your experience, but I certainly do understand. My Moron in Munich is a somatic midranger and I might have suffered the same experiences as you if we hadn’t always stayed 5000 miles apart.

          Are you no contact with him now and safe from having to see him? Healing is a long slow process, but talking out your pain and experiences is a good beginning. It’s like cleaning out the infection. Then you can dress your wounds with no contact, and time will heal them. ❤️

        2. MB says:

          Caroline, I cannot even imagine the pain you’ve been through. I hope you pressed charges against the rapist. Even if nothing is done, at least it will be on file for when other reports about him come in so that it will be. He needs to be off the streets. I’m sorry that happened to you. You are safe here.

        3. SMH says:

          Caroline, I am sorry to read that. How recently did it happen? Are you getting real world professional help? And what MB said – press charges if you can.

          I think with all of them it is a matter of degree rather than of kind – a sort of spectrum of alienated sex, which is all tied up with control issues. They can range from serial sexual sadists/killers to completely withholding sex. Mine was way more cerebral than somatic – more likely to withhold than to use force. I thank my lucky stars as I know it could have been much worse.

          You’ve illustrated one good reason why learning the signs that a person is a narcissist is so important.

          What HG is doing here is such a service. How many women will NOT BE raped because they can detect and walk away from a narc? Thank you again, HG.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome SMH. Indeed, the brutal truth – and it is brutal – it an absolute necessity to remove the obscuring fog caused by emotional thinking. This emotional thinking seizes on all of the inaccuracies, the euphemisms, the platitudes, the diluting description that have been pumped out about our kind for a very long time. Millions upon millions of people experience the consequence of engagement with our kind – whether it is the devastation from a romantic relationship which has gone from the marvellous to the horrific, whether it is the ongoing litigation which is costing huge amounts of money, whether it is the domineering and demanding family member, whether it is the unpleasant colleague at work, whether it is the fair-weather friend who keeps borrowing money and so many other examples. People do not realise what is actually behind all of these issues and once they do, not only do they seize the power and extract themselves from such issues, they can also work to ensure they are not similarly affected again in the future. This is why my work and my only work, hard to digest as it is at times, is of such importance and effectiveness. You do not have to like me, indeed you can hate me but you will learn from me and it is the single most valuable lesson to learn.

          2. SMH says:

            Well and passionately stated, HG. I have learned so much from you, and not just about romantic relationships. I do not hate you in the least. You don’t even trigger me anymore – that is how good your teaching is.

            I am also working on not being similarly affected in the future – vetting someone I met using what you have taught me. Taking it slowly and doing it thoroughly. So far, so good. I will never again be rushed or rush into something, or let my ET get the better of me (the occasional outburst with Matrinarc excluded!!).

            Just as an aside, I was worried that strengthening my LT would somehow subtract from my ET and make me cold and clinical. But it hasn’t. I don’t feel controlling. I feel like I have control. There’s a difference.

          3. NarcAngel says:


            “Just as an aside, I was worried that strengthening my LT would somehow subtract from my ET and make me cold and clinical. But it hasn’t. I don’t feel controlling. I feel like I have control. There’s a difference.”

            YESssssssss! LT does not make you cynical. It helps you to make better informed decisions taking all things into consideration. It doesn’t mean you cannot use or will lose emotion. I think thats what people think-that they have to choose one over the other, or that they will become a droid, and that is not the case. I’m glad to see that you have found it empowering to embrace.

          4. K says:

            Damn straight NA!

          5. SMH says:

            Thanks, NarcAngel. I remember when I was here distressed about losing my ET to my LT, thinking I had to choose, that one was weak and the other strong, that one was bad and the other good. It took awhile to consciously encounter a situation in which my LT would be put to the test, but now that it has been, I see how it works and that it does work. The thing I did not see before was that empaths don’t suddenly lose their ET just because they engage their LT.

          6. NarcAngel says:

            I remember you saying that you hoped “you would never become so cynical” and I thought: no, no, no – you wont! But I think its not something that one can really explain – it has to be experienced, like so many things (like telling someone to stay the course and it will get better). You didn’t lose anything – you’ve gained balance and I’m happy you feel that.

          7. SMH says:

            Yep. You remember my words better than I do but that is what I said! Thanks for your patience when I was still so unbalanced. (Seriously.)

        4. K says:

          I am very sorry that you had to go through that. Rape is horrific and we are all here for you and this is a safe place to talk about it anytime you want.

          This may be the article about why he won’t answer your calls. There is a link to: Being Mobile in it, as well.

        5. Clarece says:

          Caroline, I am so deeply sorry for what he did to you.
          To me, you experienced trauma bonding from him. He then used that to create the highs and lows in the relationship which become the addictive part and it is rooted in pleasing his needs on a whim or you are punished or given the silent treatment.
          I experienced trauma bonding with JN on two things that transpired almost back to back at the 3-4 month mark when it was still the golden period.
          Trauma bonding will long outlast the relationship and leave the victim craving comfort from the very person who hurt them…as a way to validate the pain they experienced was worth it after all.
          I don’t think I’m fully healed from me and worry that it will be one of those wounds my subconscious will try to play out with anyone new. Therefore I don’t dare try to date.
          So keep allowing yourself to stay in tune with your feelings, express them, and take time to continue healing.

        6. Jasmine says:

          Oh honey… i am so very sorry. I know how difficult it is I was raped in high school by my boyfriend and his friend. Somewhat like Dr Ford’s experience. I never told anyone (having told about my childhood molestation and brushed off). So I kept quiet about the incident.

          He was arrested the following year for raping a ten yr old girl. Since it was his second (REPORTED!) offense (unbeknownst to me, a previous gf had reported him)… this time he went to prison.

          30 yrs later and he’s still there and I still carry the guilt of not speaking up — I would have been his 2nd, had I reported him, and the little girl would have been spared.

          You did nothing wrong and I believe in you 💕💞💖

  5. Nika 💜 says:

    Mr. Tudor… no, never mind. I erased my entire comment. I am leaving this article, now. One, two, three… gone! Leaving… now!

  6. Kiki says:

    OMG , a grand Hoover already , I can’t believe it , now I’m really believing everything HG , you have predicted behaviour I couldn’t and never would have expected , and it is happening exactly like you say in No Contact ,step by step , it’s like you can read his mind and tell me exactly what ex narc will do next .Wow wow wow I’m stunned right now at your accuracy.Its like you are a psychic mind reader but I know it’s that you can predict a narcs moves like clockwork .
    HG you need to be made world renowned for your work here ,I’m a scientist and I’ve never come across anything as mind blowing as this.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you and `I agree. It is my good readers who are the key to propelling my work far and wide.

      1. lisa says:

        How can we HG? We can’t do more than your doing , website, blog, social media , youtube , books, you’ve done interviews. What’s holding back the spreading of this information is you not being able to disclose your identity

        1. HG Tudor says:

          No it is nothing to do with my identity, for instance I will be interviewed by BBC Radio 4 next week (for those who do not the channel it is a national radio station in the UK which is intelligent talk radio and drama – it is high quality) and they made it plain they do not need to know my identity. There is only one of me, there are millions of you. If each of you (and I know many do already for which I am appreciative) shared my work on social media, wrote to journalists, programme makers etc then the work would spread far further than I can do so alone.

          1. lisa says:

            I’d like to listen to that on Radio 4 next week, is it live ? do you know the time slot ? Ok well i’ll try my best to keep sharing the information, we must all continue to do that as much as we can , I think it’s so important that people have a better understanding of this .

          2. HG Tudor says:

            No it is being recorded next week. I will advise as to the date of broadcast when I know.

          3. brokenrainbow says:

            Please do keep us informed. I would love to listen to this. Have you done any other interviews that I could listen to?

          4. HG Tudor says:

            I shall. Yes, there are a number on Youtube.

          5. brokenrainbow says:

            Thank you. I shall check them out today.

          6. Lou says:

            You will be interviewed by the BBC! That is great HG!

          7. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you.

          8. Lou says:

            I hope MatriNarc is reading your comment about your interview by the BBC. Ha!

          9. MB says:

            Did your scary agent land that interview for you, HG? Jk. Congratulations! BBC! Wow!

          10. Clarece says:

            Has the blog, consults, book sales grown into more than you anticipated when you started 3 years ago? Or is on track with what you saw the potential it having?
            You’ve also said many of the books you had ready to publish that first year were actually written over several years and some had pieces taken from journals you kept before you even knew they would become books for your therapy. Where do you want all this to end for you? Do you want to stay anonymous forever and publish more books as time allows and keep providing the consults? Does it stop when the Grand Design unfolds with MatriNarc? Or do you even envision bigger things based on your success so far?
            (If you won’t do a reader interview, you have to expect these questions sometimes from me. haha)

          11. WhoCares says:

            “I will be interviewed by BBC Radio 4 next week”

            BBC! Most excellent news, HG!

          12. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you.

          13. brokenrainbow says:

            That is terrific you are being interviewed by the BBC. Congratulations!

          14. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you.

      2. evoking dahlias says:


      3. K says:

        The BBC! I can’t wait!

      4. K says:

        1. Ok, I just wrote Joe Rogan and suggested he do a podcast about you and narcsite.

        2. Ask Amy and Meredith wanted nothing to do with you; they were quite hostile in fact.

        3. I wrote the Good Doctors, Elsa Ronningstam and John Gunderson, and explained how the medical community, as a whole, has a poor understanding of NPD and suggested they explore it from the perspective of a diagnosed narcissistic psychopath, HG Tudor, and included a link to narcsite.

        If the good doctors go NC, I will let you know. In the mean time, I will work on the bulletin board.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          1. Thank you.

          2. Who?

          3. Thank you.

          1. K says:

            1. You are welcome
            2. Ha ha ha…I know right. (their advice was so bad that I cancelled the paper; I got too cranky reading it)
            3. You are welcome. Hopefully the Good Doctors will consider looking into narcsite.

      5. amanda SNapchat says:

        Congrats!! woot woot!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you.

    2. E&L says:

      Kiki, Agreed! When another channel makes reference to HG or his work, I refer back to HG’s spoken or written word, as the borrowers themselves do not accurately convey his comprehensive information.

      1. Kiki says:

        Yes HG should be famous / infamous for this work.
        I cannot comprehend how he does it .I know he is a greater narc but the detailed pinpoint accuracy he can give about the narcs twisted behaviour is for me mind blowing.
        A lot of psychologists ,psychiatrists are nothing but academic wafflers compared to HG .
        I am a critical thinker and can be sceptical but when I found this blog I knew I had come upon something totally unique and fascinating.
        Each of HG books was describing every emotion and situation ,and Predicted behaviour I thought was impossible to predict.
        I have never seen this before it’s unreal.

  7. abrokenwing says:

    I cannot relate.

    1. windstorm says:

      I can’t relate at all, either. I’m 61, only ever had one sexual partner. He was a higher-level narc and the sex was never good. He ALWAYS used sex to dominate and draw negative fuel. The only reason he ever wanted to know what I liked was to taunt me and withhold it and to belittle me for being “abnormal” and not wanting what he wanted.

      I feel like this article was written to people on some other planet.

  8. Mercy says:

    HG, what are the chances that videos and pictures will remain private? I have damaging information on him, will this help me in this case?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      This is a matter which requires more information from you and therefore should be a matter for consultation.

  9. Q says:

    My G Malignant N tried to do this with me, denying sex, first as as a tool of frustration and secondly as a tool of getting me into rough group sex via frustration. He thought he would build inside me such a sexual frustration that I would just do anything he asked for. Now, that was extremely stupid of him. This is something that works with naive women. Or maybe with women without any narcissistic or HPD traits. It didn’t work with me. It frustrated me a lot for the first 2 months and than it made me not wanting him sexually at all. I had told him that if I couldn’t have something when I want it (well, in a decent frame of time) I just stop wanting it altogether. He didn’t seem to believe me, maybe it didn’t happen to him before, maybe it had always worked with other women, I have no idea, but it certainly didn’t work with me, since I have a very short span time of being sexually interested in someone. If I dont have it when I feel like it, it just dies and I don’t want it anymore. The person stops being interesting as a sexual partener and becomes anything one can think of, anything except a sexual partner… I can even love the person, or I can be in love with him, it doesn’t matter, the attraction starts to fade and once it fades, than poof, it’s gone in no time. It just disappears. This is how he “died” for me, with him thinking he is building a huge sexual frustration. He did build it until he didn’t. If only he believed me when I had told him it is a game I never play, not because I don’t want to, but because I cannot. I either have it when I want it or it dies. After all,, it’s just sex.

    1. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:

      Team histrionic!!! woot woot!!!

      Histrionic 1 : Narcissist 0

      Not gonna lie rooting for team histrionic right now LMAO.

  10. Supernova DE says:

    With a cerebral, is avoidance of sex always devaluation? Or could it be just that, avoidance, since they don’t like it?

    Also, as a curiosity, have you ever met anyone who you thought was so physically attractive and sexy that you wanted them more than auto-eroticism? Or wait, do narcs even think about people that way? Judging their sex appeal? I’m getting myself confused…

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Avoidance is primarily owing to the rejection of intimacy but a cerebral will do so during seduction purely to achieve the seduction, thereafter in devaluation there is no need to do so and thus it both serves to enable avoidance of intimacy AND to devalue.

  11. Fuel on the Shelf says:

    Ah sexual devaluing, my current issue. I know I asked here prior about the mid range purposely being sub par at sex and then being good again as a passive aggressive tactic. Many of you told me that it was typical mid range behavior. Well I have another situation I am facing now. It is the usual contradiction of him saying “we are done having sex, we are going behave and be platonic” (but then it is all negated and we do anyway). For awhile it was just contradictory words vs. actions and I keep a “whatever” approach to it as to not play the game. If he changed his mind and wanted to indulge then fine, whatever. Lately though after he would indulge he would immediately pull away professing guilt but it was always MY fault. Sure, he took a little bit of the blame (“Oh I should have put my foot down!”) Ummm. You did. Then you negated yourself! He then says “well sex IS my weakness and if you really loved me you would have taken my feelings into consideration when I said I wanted to behave!”

    Ummm okay. Your actions negated that and I went along with it because I wanted some action. And that makes it MY fault somehow? He took about 10% of the blame and issued the other 90% to me.

    Of course as soon as I apologized (which is my default setting) his tone became positive with smile emojis and he said “it is okay, I forgive you but next time you need to respect my wishes okay?”

    Which wishes would that be? That you wanna have sex or that you don’t? Or it is a whole “spin the wheel and take a guess” game?

    I just replied “Whatever you prefer…”

    1. Mercy says:

      Fuel on the shelf, in a normal relationship this wouldn’t even be a conversation. Is he trying to say he doesn’t want a sexual relationship? If your together why wouldn’t he want sex? Or is he playing the “we’re just friends” game but sending you mixed relationship signals.

      My narc often did this “I care about you so much, let’s have sex every day, let’s talk 24/7, will you cook for me, rub my back, handle my household affairs”…I find out there’s a side chick “but we’re just friends”. Really!!

      1. Fuel on the Shelf says:

        The 2nd one. I am DLS/IPSS. He is determined to remain friends with me and not have sex but that stance seems to change monthly.

        1. Mercy says:

          Fuel on the shelf, that’s such a hard situation to be in. I know how bad it messes with your head.

      2. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:


        How insulting is it to be a dirty little secret!?

        I would be like ugh….

        Like are you embarrassed of me?

        Your narcissist needs a throat punch lol

    2. Kathy Mor says:

      So, it goes sorta like this.

      If you “respect his wishes” and “determination” to “behave” and have no sex with him, then he will say that if you REALLY loved him, you would want to have sex with him and would have initiated it because it should be natural for you to want him NOT MATTER WHAT. NOT MATTER WHERE. NOT MATTER WHY. So, now he is being forced to screw someone else because you neglected him, even though you respected his wishes.

      If you go ahead and “seduce” the poor innocent creature, means that you don’t respect him and that you are trying to use his precious body and all that you want is really his marvelous, beautiful, amazing, glorious and “almighty” penis. Yes, the PENIS. But you don’t truly love him because you are being a selfish whore who pays attention to underbelly wishes for your own pleasure, and chances are you are a nymph whore who would be giving head to some truck driver if he had not allowed you access to his… PENIS. You violated his wishes. You whore. So, now he has to go and have sex with his secondary or tertiary sources because again…. you are such a useless whore disrespecting him by using his beautiful penis.

      I recall this dialogue:

      ” Kathy, why are you nails red?”

      “Because last night, you told me you wanted them red.”

      Silence. Then 20 minutes later after he read his 60 million messages from the others and could not find mine, he comes back with this stupid blank question that I could punch a hole on his face:

      “Did I?”

      grrrrrrr….. cussing in my mind (what a fucking moron!) why am I even with this moron?

      I took a screened shot of his own message and sent it.” Kathy, tomorrow, I want your nails bright red, bloody red. Just plain red. Do you understand me?”

      Silence again. “Oh, I did send that text! That is right! I was so tired that I cannot remember what I ate for breakfast. But now I want them pink. Change it.”

      Typical dementia crap.

      I didn’t change. Red it stayed.

      Sometimes I feel like offering him $50 for a good night…just to humiliate him. Here is one thing you are a good at: fucking.
      Here it is $50 market price. My money. My rules. Your ass will be plugged and you will suck my toes. The rest is history.

      He would stroke in fury…. just saying….

      1. Fuel on the Shelf says:

        Kathy Mor,
        My MMRN used to say “hold on let me go re-read my texts” all the time. And “I don’t recall saying that”. LOL. They really are like children!

        I also have to laugh at the use of your words “respecting his wishes” …. he makes it sound like I raped him or something and I did no such thing! He said he did not want to but then we went to his office and he unlocked the door. He was just as game as I was. After he unlocked the door to the building, I went to use the bathroom and when I met him in his office afterward, he had built a sex fort out of pillows, so clearly he was just as eager as I was.

        Yet I am the one who did not “respect his wishes”.

        And your last paragraph? LOLOLOL that made me laugh so hard!

        1. Kathy Mor says:

          The more I remember the stupid crap, the more I want to go ballistic on him.

      2. MB says:

        Epic Kathy!

  12. brokenrainbow says:

    I just finished reading this book. This fascinated me and answered questions I had. I have a couple of questions though. My ex could go for hours and usually delayed his orgasm or never had one. He said he was into tantric sex which he is why he rarely came. To be honest I had no complaints about our sex life but I am wondering if the reason he did not orgasm is because there was no emotional connection? Could that be true or am I missing something? You say in the book that your kind has many sex partners and your kind is promiscuous. Is it conceivable the number of sex partners could be quite high? I know it is subjective but possibly over one hundred partners? Also the withdrawal of sex was very interesting. We did not have sex for a period of time as he said he was too depressed and was sick. He was sick for awhile though. I never pressured him for sex and made it clear when he was interested to let me know. Could that have been a deliberate and manipulative withdrawal from sex with me? Sorry for all the questions. Thanks.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I would need more information, especially related to his school and cadre and therefore recommend an email consultation (possibly narc detector also) to give you accurate answers.

      1. brokenrainbow says:

        Thank you HG. I will organize a consultation as soon as I can.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I look forward to you doing so.

  13. some chick says:

    We had more phone sex then actual intercourse! That was a huge disappointment 😒 You’d think he could talk about his “issues”, but when I finally learned, I just ended up feeling responsible somehow.
    I lost desire for him after that. I think he could tell. Would that cause a narcissist injury? He started a huge fight after he noticed. I tend to wear my emotions on my sleeve. It was horrible, out was out first fight and i ended up in the hospital.
    — ironically, I didn’t lose interest from his medical problem (little blue pills took care of that) I lost desire for him because he wasn’t honest with me and his attitude about it was “off”.

    1. some chick says:

      This spellchecker sucks. “IT was OUR first fight”

      1. Nika 💜 says:

        Some Chick,

        I know, it changes words on me all the time! And, many times the words it changes to is not even a word.

  14. Tammy says:

    I had my own ( mental) orgasm this afternoon and went parasailing in the pouring rain.
    I think if we want to be happy and healthy, giving ourselves the love we deserve, then we got this!

    1. Mercy says:

      Love this!

    2. Nika 💜 says:


  15. Mercy says:

    You really got me on this one HG. I’m shaking and short of breath. It’s easy to trick yourself into thinking that the things you did were your own decisions. Maybe they were my decisions but they were decisions made based lies. It wasn’t the thrill of new and exciting things for him. It was the thrill of owning me.

    I bought the book sex and the narcissist a year ago. I can’t bring myself to read it. The shame and disappointment in myself is too great to face.

    1. Sarah says:

      Hello lovely Mercy,
      Sex and the Narcissist is my favourite book that HG has written, the content will set you free (I promise). Please read it, you have nothing to fear and everything to gain.
      Hope all is going well with NC.
      Sarah xo

      1. Mercy says:

        Thank you Sarah. I will read this!

    2. Rachel says:

      Mercy, I think I understand what you’re talking about. I recognize the shame, and I read Sex and the Narcissist. Instead of feeling embarrased when reading, I felt a huge relieve! Almost all victims experienced more or less the same, and we did everything with the best intentions, believing we were in a loving repationship. Nothing to be ashamed about. HG literally described things the exact way my narc would behave with me. Also in this article, because he once told me it would turn him on to watch me fuck someone else. I don’t know how far I would’ve gone to impress him and feel special..
      Read the book, it’s good to realise this is narcissist routine. Nothing special. (Again, I do understand the shame, it’s a delicate subject)

      1. Mercy says:

        Rachel, thanks for your response. I didn’t realize this subject really bothered me until I read this article and experienced my reaction. In my mind I thought I made these decisions I can live with it. But to read the motives of the narcissist (even though I already worked it out) made me so angry. There is a element of trust that you have to have in your partner in order do these things for them. I trusted him when making decisions. That trust was based on lies. If this was something that we experienced mutually I would have no regrets.

        I plan to read. After this article I realize this is something I need to work through.

  16. Nika - Survival 💜 says:

    I have A LOT to say about this, so I am not going to say anything, at all… because there is just too much for me to say.

    1. Nika - Survival 💜 says:

      I cannot even ping it to my Pinterest Board or else whenever I see it, I will be tempted to say everything I want to say. So, I am simply going to leave this article, and the picture… and just go… or else… When I count to three, in my mind, I will then leave… leaving…now…

  17. Kathy says:

    This behavior seems calculated. So, would a middle range or lesser do anything similar? I would assume a lower range is too stupid and instinct driven to hold off on their own orgasm by with-holding sex..

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Yes, by instinct, albeit as you identify the Lesser is more likely to satiate his physical need and instead devalue in some other way during the sexual act.

      1. Fuel on the Shelf says:

        I sort of agree with this. MMRN “devalued” me (I think) by giving sub par sex one time when it was always WAY better. After that one instance (I told him I was dissatisfied) he stepped back up the next time. His rationale was he was not really in the mood and he was tired. Oh and he was trying to “behave and be a good boy”.

    2. evoking dahlias says:

      Mine would usually say something devaluing just before we were to have sex or earlier the same day. Almost every time.
      He never withheld it, he pushed for more and said he could go on 24 hours if i wanted to.
      Sometimes he would slap my bum really hard, which destroyed any chance of me having an orgasm. I don’t think he knew this though.

  18. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:

    I’ve never had someone withdraw sex because I’m usually the one doing that lol. If they did it to me I’d be just fine. I would either leave or get it somewhere else. As for exploiting the liberal attitude – yeah I learned from that one but even then I had SOME boundaries (thank god). I definitely haven’t and won’t let that happen ever again. I learn SOMETIMES lmao.

    1. Pale Horse says:

      Dr. HQ, I am a Psy.D as well. Nice to meet you.

      1. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:

        Pale horse! That’s awesome! Where are you from??!!

      2. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:

        Pale horse,

        How did you wind up here??! What’s your story?

        1. Pale Horse says:

          I was disengaged with three months into internship. 10 year relationship. 5 dating. 5 married. She believed I was cheating on her with a colleague. I was not. However, she had a colleague in the queue. We had moved for my internship. She started a new job. She casually brought up meeting her IPPS. So innocuous at the time I thought nothing of it. That of course until the FB relationship broadcast months later. I found this blog by chance or maybe it found me. It has been most helpful. HG is spot on in his insights. From her machinations to my reactions to such. She left me high and dry. Fortunately, some very caring people kept me afloat.

          1. windstorm says:

            Dr PH
            I’m very glad you had those caring people in your life.

      3. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:

        Pale horse,

        What is/are your specialty area(s)?

        1. Pale Horse says:

          DRHQ, forensic assessment and treatment. Both inpatient and outpatient.

      4. Dr. Harleen Quinzel, PsyD says:

        Pale horse,

        Omg! Hello there new friend!

        How exciting….my favorite area.

        Where are you from? How old are you?

        1. Pale Horse says:

          44. I was a non traditional student. CT.

        2. Pale Horse says:

          What state was your grad program in? How old are you? What is your specialty area? What do you want our time together to be about? (Said tongue-in-cheek clinician to clinician but feel free to answer accordingly if you wish)

        3. Pale Horse says:

          Also, do you look like Harleen Quinzel? We are off to a fast pace here Doc. We are going to have to set some boundaries so we don’t hurt each other or cause any collateral damage along the way.

          1. SMH says:

            Pale Horse, I feel like you are my kid and I am watching a slo mo car crash. Please be alert while crossing the road.

      5. Pale horse,

        Enjoy this clip…

        My present to you tonight lmao..

        I’m dying…

      6. All that was proven in that clip is that we have to restore mental health services.

        So… thanks Kanye.

      7. Dr. Harleen Quinzel, PsyD says:

        Dr PH,

        You aren’t my client and I’m not not yours lol. Why would we hurt each other silly? I love making new friends lol!

        Hmm… do I look like Harley Quinn? Well, it depends.

        In some versions she has dark hair and others versions she’s a blonde.

        So the answer would be yes and no? Lol

        Which version do you like better?

      8. Dr. PH,

        I’m 31 and from NY. Oh, CT? You aren’t that far lol!

      9. Dr. PH,

        My specialty area would ADHD and EF as well as LD and disruptive behavior disorders. I’m def proficient in cluster b personality disorders.

        Are you flirting with me Dr. PH? Lol 😏😉

        Sounds like you wanna play doctor lmao.

    2. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:

      If you were a fan of saved by the bell you will appreciate this lmao…

      When you realize the first tv crush you had was def disordered af.

  19. Supernova DE says:

    UUUUUGH, I did this one to myself, with no outside help at all!

    Oddly, when I first figured out he was a narc, I was convinced he was somatic based on his over the top sexual interest during seduction. God, the words he could use to get me going….shudder (good shudder haha)
    But, cerebral that he is, he repeatedly declined to meet to consummate things and eventually it devolved into a few clinical sexts ending with, “Oh, I came already, I’ll ttyl.” or pictures sent of him using his vibrator or penis pump…I did not find those remotely exciting or even attractive. Who wants to use a penis pump instead of fuck a real woman??!! Haha
    And I just kept upping my game trying to keep his interest, or get any sign of his lust again. The last time he shelved me (before our huge blowup), he did so immediately following me sending a particularly interesting video…he never even responded, I never knew if he even watched it. Talk about hurtful. If that’s not devaluation, I don’t know what is.

    1. Clarece says:

      Hi Supernova DE! I greatly commiserate with your scenario. The rejection from lack of response or caveman response is beyond demoralizing. They are already removing intimacy and not wanting to close the deal in real life. I would view video messaging or Skype calls (because of long distance) as foreplay, then learned from HG, that is the isolated act and no need to be continued. Ouch!
      SuperNova you referred to yours as a Cerebral because of him switching to electronic means of being intimate. I thought since there is still such a heavy emphasis on sex in general, especially with the control and voyeurism aspect, that made JN somatic? HG, is he actually cerebral? At the end of the day, he’s a toxic narc, but I may have mislabeled him all this time, which is a bit comical to me.

    2. MB says:

      Supernova DE, Was there ever any actual physical intimacy with Mr. Penis Pump or only words?

      1. Supernova DE says:

        Due to long distance not much. Have crossed paths on occasion when both out of town for work at the same time. Also when we were teenagers. He never could give me a window of time I felt comfortable with. In retrospect if I had been cool with having him for two hours, then parting, it would have happened. But it’s a big risk and I felt like if I was going to go there with someone, I wanted it to be with someone who felt the same and could commit to giving me an entire weekend. If that was the case, then they would also be proving they were into it for the connection as well as the sex. He couldn’t do that. So it was always making out and foreplay, and I’d never go all the way. Also, the more I think about it, I don’t think he actually wanted sex. I’m the one who wanted that. He used it to bind me and keep me and then to devalue me by withdrawing and talking about things that pushed my boundaries etc. And he is quite happy to take advantage of me from afar with pics and sexts due to the intimacy issues.

        1. MB says:

          Supernova DE, you’re absolutely correct. It’s not the sex they want, it’s your reaction to what they do (or don’t do as the case may be). That’s why they make such unselfish lovers. Their pleasure is not derived in the traditional ways associated with sex. (They can get that by masturbation and do it better than you can anyway.) They are more interested in what THEY do to YOU than what YOU do to THEM. Their pleasure comes from your reactions to them.

          To use HG’s analogy, if they could get the same reactions by feeding your their fresh baked chocolate cake, they would be the best bakers on the planet. I do have to admit, I’ve had a particular dessert from a local restaurant that IS better than sex. It’s been a long time since I had it too. I need to find that baker!

          1. Supernova DE says:

            Yes exactly. If mine could keep me in the golden period and just give me occasional sexual satisfaction, I’d be all good. But he likes to devalue me very much. I still can’t figure out why. HG says I’m not a super empath (I agree) so not sure what his problem is. I know now that him going cold sexually has nothing to do with me, so that’s been quite helpful, as I just wanted to feel desired.

          2. MB says:

            Supernova DE, from what I’ve read, devaluation is a given when in the dance with a narcissist and it is not dependent on the type of empath you are. Being a Super Empath or not should have no bearing on whether or not you are devalued. (HG?) We all want to be desired and that intermittent reinforcement keeps us hooked waiting for the hit. They know what they’re doing and are quite good at it. I hope you are able to shake Mr. PP for good this time.

          3. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            I seem to only get constant corrective devaluations.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            Repeated, not constant.

          5. Supernova DE says:

            Ah, but it FEELS constant at times. I feel like I get multiple in each conversation…I really tick him off it seems. Haha
            I suspect dealing with MMRNs is the worst regarding this, as HG says they are so incredibly sensitive to criticism. I feel like sometimes I criticize him by just saying something smart that he didn’t think of first, or a minor teasing comment, or applying sarcasm, or a comment that is a see through….I can’t help it, even when I’m trying not to do it!

          6. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            Yep. It really does feel constant! My MMRN definitely hates criticism. He knows when it is coming because he will “warn” me. “Say what you must but PLEASE do not be rude about it!”

          7. E&L says:

            @FUEL, it is these nuanced revelations that make HG’s work so very important and valuable for those who want to achieve freedom and heal. For example, “repeated” speaks to the reprieve from the devaluation vs. “constant” devaluation, which would rapidly extinguish all your “fuel” at once. Another technicality that has been so helpful for me is the notion that “they” behave in this manner, therefore, “they” are a narc vs. “they are a narc, therefore, they operate from the phantom playbook. There exists no playbook, narcs do not wear signs, and I do not require some diagnostic label to realize a toxic person. I may run across many shitty people in this stroll through life, but from this blog, I am now better equipped to recognize early on that I suck at dodgeball, I do not want to play, I will get off the court, and take a walk by myself. I am slow, but not stupid, just slow. That’s why I will walk and not run. Thanks to you all, I have learned so much! An old dog can learn new tricks! Now, I must nap!

          8. Supernova DE says:

            At least he gives you the pretense about caring how you feel! Mine is not even that polite, at least not anymore….unless he feels I’m about to walk, then he’ll change his tune (eyeroll).
            It is very difficult for me to tell what is the typical mind games to gain more control and what is devaluation, as I feel everything he says is a game of sorts.
            I know HG says IPSS don’t have “devaluation periods”, it’s just corrective, but sometimes I’m not convinced.
            I should eventually do an audio consult with HG to talk it out, if I can ever figure out a time to make that work.

          9. HG Tudor says:

            People often regard being placed on the shelf as ‘a devaluation period’ because they are not getting any interaction with the narcissist, but that is not necessarily the case. You may receive repeated corrective devaluations one after the other, but you do not get an extended period of devaluation like the IPPS because of the very nature of the interaction with the IPSS.

          10. Supernova DE says:

            Thank you for clarifying HG, and I do agree, shelving feels like devaluation.
            I am also referring to times where he hoovers me from the shelf with a devaluing comment (usually triangulation) such as “This porn is good, want to join me?” or something like that.
            Or he sets up his hoover to be hurtful. For example, last evening he texted, “Why don’t you just come and visit me” very late when he knew I was sleeping. I respond this morning, he then says, “Sorry, that comment was made after a few beers, I feel kinda bad suggesting it.” Meaning he put the possibility of seeing him in my head on purpose just so he could retract it today.

            Those instances seem like they have forethought and that I am painted black from the start, rather than doing something to bring it on.

          11. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            I dealt with similar bullshit when making plans.

            “I am THIS close to deciding to see you tonight”.

            Ummm, okay I thought we were confirmed already.


            Shelving really does feel like devaluation in a way. I still struggle to understand the difference.

            He actually said “this porn is good, want to join me?” to you??!!! Holy shit. I know my MRN enjoys porn as he mentioned it once but he has never triangulated me with it.

          12. Supernova DE says:

            Oh, I got lots of stuff like that, yes.

            “Can I get a pic? If not that’s cool, I’ll just go find some porn.”
            “MILF was a good category for today.”
            “I really like pics like this…….I just googled that by the way, I don’t know her.”
            “……..him: haha just joking around”

            I can say with certainty that he has watched porn and/or texted someone else at the same time as sexting/picture exchanging with me also. That in particular pretty much sucks.

            Again, writing out his antics has killed the urge to contact him…I should keep doing that here!!

          13. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            Interesting. Lately Piano boy has been odd about the acceptance of naughty media from me. If I send something he has a canned generic reply of “you’re amazing” or “I am gonna go cum for you now” and then he will just disappear. Then there are times when whatever I send goes into oblivion with no acknowledgement whatsofuckingever. I stopped sending stuff, he does not ask and he does not seem to care anymore.

          14. Supernova DE says:

            Yes, I’ve had that too, in terms of varying interest. But it makes sense. Interest when hoovering or ensuring you are content to stay to inhale more toxic smoke. Then interest gone when you are choking on the smoke and gasping for air.

            For me, this is a crux, and he well knows it. It is also when I start to recede due to my own failing interest. If I need to beg for your attention when I’m willingly showing you my body and flat out telling you I want you….you don’t deserve to be in the same room as me, let alone fuck me. BUT, it has taken some time to get to that point, I used to flagellate myself a bit more over it.

            Of course he senses my distance and comes back around to being interested again and off we go on the dance. Trouble is (for him at least), with all the seeing through I can do these days thanks to HG, it’s a big of an uphill battle for him, and getting steeper all the time.

            He laughed at me recently when I told him I expect reciprocity and that I won’t beg for sexual attention, that I’ll wait til he feels inclined. HE LAUGHED. It was like a smack in the face saying, “look how he thinks you’ll never walk, look how he doesn’t care about how you feel, look how he doesn’t actually want your body, look at the disrespect.”

            That’s a lot for a simple “Haha” text to tell me, but I have no one to thank more than HG for his articles, answers to my questions here, and consults. All you loveys help too.

            I’m feeling pretty empowered. A few things have really cut through the ET this week, and I’m ready to be done. Just me and my husband, raising my kids, normal non narc sex based on respect and love and REAL desire.

          15. Supernova DE says:

            Shoot I don’t think that went through correctly, I meant:

            “I really like pics like this…sends pic of vagina…I just googled that by the way, I don’t know her.”
            “sends several random porn pics of women……..him: haha just joking around.”

            I should add that I can tell from reading others comments here that he is particularly avoidant of the intimacy surrounding sex, even for a cerebral narc. Porn is HUGE in his life, and I sometimes don’t think he realizes that he is triangulating me, its just how he is. I think this is one of the reasons he keeps me around, I am a tolerable sexual interaction given the physical distance between us.

          16. Supernova DE says:

            HG –
            Oh wait. Now I think I got it. Last night I ended our previous text conversation because I was tired and wanted to sleep, I don’t think he was ready to be done interacting…perhaps because I didn’t put his needs first I got the devaluation….??
            Ugh, he’s so sneaky with it!

          17. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            Correction noted, Sir Tudor.

          18. MB says:

            “Repeated, not constant.” That one really does get your boxers in a bunch! When I read her comment, I winced.

          19. Supernova DE says:

            Yes of course I realize we all get devalued. I think in the beginning I thought I was a super which explained to me why I got SO MUCH devaluation, if he felt I was railing against him all the time. But I don’t know, as a secondary source, I should have gotten positive treatment….perhaps I did and the coldness of shelving felt like devaluation to me…but damn it certainly felt like he played a lot of head games.

            I absolutely LOVE the nickname you’ve given him (Mr. Penis Pump, Mr. PP)!!!!! That will help me quite a bit moving forward so I thank you dearly haha.

            I am a carrier standard just like you, and I think that’s why i can relate so much to all you’ve said about loving the steadiness of your marriage, but feeling repressed and having sacrificed adventure in favor of shouldering the load. Fantasy land awaits…there’s just narcs in the water right? (Wink). Xoxo

          20. MB says:

            Supernova DE, I feel our situations ARE very similar. We are DE seesters! I’m glad you like the Mr. PP nickname. I call mine AW for Ass Wipe. He told me in the beginning that he really is an ass wipe and I didn’t know him. (HG wrote an article about these admissions.) The name stuck but only in my mind. (I’d never call him that to his face.) I’m too nice for that. Plus, I like to maintain the image of the compliant little appliance sitting up here on the shelf patiently waiting my turn. Making waves doesn’t suit my purposes. He tastes much better sweet and warm. (Straight from the toaster!)

          21. Supernova DE says:

            I know why you are still in contact with your mid ranger. Excitement, sexual stimulation, adventure, etc.
            Would you mind telling me if you ever feel he affects you negatively? Your confidence? Or confusing you? Distracting you? Does it hurt you to wait on the shelf and have no say in when?
            I am too strong willed, I have felt hurt by all of those things. I need more control than he allows me.

          22. MB says:

            S DE, my confidence improved greatly from the get go and remains such. It feels good to be desired and complimented. The way I dress and carry myself is different than before. I am also waaay more confident in the sheets, which is quite appreciated by my husband. Our sex life is better than it has ever been.

            Since finding HG, I’m no longer confused by any of his behavior. It has removed a lot of the mysteriousness that I found alluring however.

            Distracting me? It’s welcome excitement from the mundane. Bring it on.

            Waiting on the shelf? I text during work hours whenever I want to. Sometimes I get no reply which stings, but I know why. He rarely texts me first and never after hours, I assume in respect of my situation. We’ve never discussed “rules” in that regard. I enjoy providing fuel when it’s needed/wanted and I don’t want to be a burden or a pest. I never mention his failure to answer. If I ask a question and don’t get an answer, I consider it corrective. (Off limits) I get the hint so I don’t need to have more stern corrections which would be a deal breaker for me. I don’t play that game. I’ve been trained over 6 years to be a good girl. Iwas more strong willed and wanted to control the situation before HG, but I now know I don’t want any more with him than this. That hasn’t always been the case. There was a time that I begged God to bring him back to me for good and make him mine. Thank you God for your unanswered prayers!

            I have very little knowledge of his REAL life and he lives 800 miles away. We’ve never been physically intimate, but I didn’t meet him online. We knew each other from work before we both moved on from there and he went back to CA. I started as NISS. He kissed me once, leaving for CA the next day and that’s when I became an intimate appliance. Before that, it was just a crush on my part/unrequited love so to speak. He never pursued me or love bombed me. That was me. I was smitten from the moment I laid eyes on him. He talks about meeting, but that’s all it is. Nothing ever gets planned. It’s all future faking and I know that now so that doesn’t bother me either. No cooties that way. Bring on fantasyland baby!

            I don’t say all of this to make it sound like it’s all sunshine and rainbows because it’s an addiction and I know that. He’s a bad habit. I guess it’s akin to those that smoke, enjoy it, and have no desire to quit. As far as Narcs go, he’s a pussy cat. Pun intended ha ha. I don’t love him any more than I do any other friend and I don’t want more. I’m content for now. If and when that changes, I’ll go no contact. I know how.

          23. Supernova DE says:

            Wow, we are like the same person haha. I also feel my confidence, sex appeal, sexual adventurousness have all improved since messing with narc. My sex life with hubs is as good as ever now too, from a combination of factors but fantasyland with narc contributes – I will always be grateful to him for that no matter what else occurs.

            My problem with him is that I can’t stand to be ignored, and I need control. I will always push (or used to before I knew what was going on), when he wouldn’t text me back etc. This led to many corrective devaluations and then I’d push some more because I didn’t like his shitty behavior…more corrective devaluations…etc. etc. round and round we go.

            The other issue is that he continually likes to talk about how he knows I want more but he can’t give it, “I know, it is normal for you to want the top spot, the most coveted position in my life.” But then I’d respond like, “Well no, I don’t want the top spot, that’s for your wife….” Cue wounded devaluing behavior. He assumes I want more when I don’t, or he wants me to fight for him, and I won’t. Again, this leads to devaluations, and I push again based on his shitty behavior, and then more devaluations round and round we go again.

            If I back off and don’t react or push, I can tell he gets bored and just stops contacting me. He likes the drama, though of course denies that tooth and nail.

            Yours sounds different, and maybe its more realistic to just do occasional fantasyland with a narc like yours. He doesn’t rely on you for much fuel. I think mine is different, when I am off the shelf he wants lots of fuel so he pulls more games. When I am on the shelf I am dead to him, with only one word comfort crumbs…and I can’t tolerate that.

          24. MB says:

            Supernova DE, we are certainly in similar situations! I don’t do drama and I certainly don’t do ugly. He tried a CD once and I didn’t contact him for 4 months after we hung up the phone from it. Cold turkey. Maybe he likes me warm and sweet too. I take it when it happens and go to fantasyland when it doesn’t.

          25. Supernova DE says:

            I really wish I had that kind of strength. Going NC and pushing the block buttons will be the hardest thing for me, and I’ve little confidence I can stick to it long term. I’m determined to try though.

          26. MB says:

            It won’t be easy Supernova DE. And, make no mistake; I’m not strong! I blocked for a few months when I read my first HG book in February. I didn’t have any reason other than that HG told me it was the thing to do and I got really scared from some of the things I read. I was a complete mess! Withdrawal city. Xanax galore! Make no mistake, I’m addicted to him and weak when it comes to breaking the habit. There’s no better way to break my addiction than to yell at me and belittle me. I ain’t signing up for that shit. In that way, I AM strong. Don’t mess with me and don’t mess with my babies or my subordinates and we will get along just fine. Ha ha 😊

          27. MB says:

            Supernova DE, I’ve been thinking about you. Hope you are well.

          28. Supernova DE says:

            Thank you so much. I’ve been better. I seem to be back in the push and pull. I haven’t been reaching out much but when I do, all I get is the cold persona. On the shelf once again I guess, and everything I do and say seems to wound and get me a manipulation of some kind.
            Seems clear the cycle continues no matter what I do (which of course I knew already). I’m feeling down in general (nothing to do with narc), and I just need to muster the strength to go NC. But I haven’t much energy for anything the past week.

  20. pascaleshealingjourney says:

    Oh yeah, they certainly use sex as a weapon. He told me once: “if you’re a good girl and you don’t complain this week, I will give you sex on Sunday. ” Note the use of the verb give. He was certainly in control! The hoover sex was the best sex we had but then he would start triangulating straight after – post coital triangulation!!

    1. Fuel on the Shelf says:


      Good grief the hoover sex. It left me in TEARS! Tears of RELIEF!


    2. Fuel on the Shelf says:


      Not just the hoover sex. Hoover PHONE TIME too.

      “Now if you calm down and leave me alone we can have a phone call later, how does that sound?”

      1. pascaleshealingjourney says:


        1. Fuel on the Shelf says:

          Yep! But I hungrily devoured that phone call. 😐

          1. pascaleshealingjourney says:

            I know. I remember those days…😣

          2. Kathy Mor says:

            That’s what I bring to the forefront of my mind: the feeling of constant need I found myself in while I was with him. It totally negates the pleasure I felt. Not worth.
            I have it all or none at all.
            So none it is.

    3. Kathy Mor says:

      Holy shit! Were we dating the same narc????????????
      That sounds just like my narc. “You were a good girl and kept your hands to yourself. I will give you cock Sunday. Be ready.”

      1. pascaleshealingjourney says:

        They all sound the them!

    4. Caroline says:

      ‘post coital triangulation’,that made me laugh! It sounds like a twisted version of Twister.

      1. Caroline says:

        And nobody wants to play that game.

      2. pascaleshealingjourney says:

        It is very twisted indeed!

  21. lisa says:

    I believe male narcissists are women haters as well, they are masoginists as well as the other 100 things they are

    1. Scout says:

      Correct Lisa, narcs are definitely misogynists. My narc used to tell me how he loved women, and he did; he loved to hate them. Once the phoney ‘love’ had evaporated, he resorted to abusive behaviour. They behave like feral dogs; aggressive, sex-mad fiends.

      1. Nina says:

        Yes, they talk a good talk and pretend to be the nicest guys. It’s true too during the love bombing, incredible gentleman, polite, responsive, and attentive. Wow, what good fortune to meet such a perfect man. Then the devaluation starts, and where did the fellow come from? Where was he hiding all along and what did you do with that nice guy? Please bring him back!!

  22. renatadavies says:

    I would like to congratulate H G Tudor for his work. I will do this as many times as necessary. I see myself in all the games reported here and thanks to you and these posts, thanks to everyone’s comments, I can have the strength to keep the contact zero and understand that I was in the hands of a creature without the slightest feeling or compassion. This creature of darkness saw me suffer and laugh at me. I would bleed, I would cry, I would scream with a broken soul and he would look at me with such a cold look …. He had absolute pleasure in me to suffer while I only loved him and did everything to see him happy. Today I know, that would never be possible. This man made me feel like crap, he used sex as money, and he never gave me what I wanted. If I touched him he would react with disgust … it was horrible! H G, could you also talk about the “narcissistic look”? I’ve seen the abyss in your eyes many times. He said that my eyes were as black as the eyes of a demon, but today I know it was not … he had clear green eyes but when we fought the pupil it became all black. A cold, black look like the eyes of a shark. He would look at me with those demon eyes and say, “I want you to die with the worst cancer.” I can not understand why he hated me so much without me ever doing anything bad to him. Sad myth all this … If it was not for this blog I do not know what would become of me. I was not deal with a HUMAN. This i know.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you. Please see The Stare.

      1. renatadavies says:

        I will. A day without your posts are a wasted day for me 🙂

    2. Kathy Mor says:

      My narc has blue eyes and his eyes would turn black like that. His pupils dilated to the max… during sex and took him to the next level and when he was mad at me… hehehe… he never wished me to die a horrible death. In fact he was afraid of me dying because I told him I will haunt him after I am dead, which I will, be him dead or alive I will drag him into my personal hell. Lol! My mouth waters as I type this. Yum! He has no fucking clue who he messed with. 🙂

      1. Fuel on the Shelf says:

        Kathy Mor….
        I have been sort of doing little experiments when it comes to Piano boy’s eyes. During our intimacy his eyes definitely look blacker and his pupils dilate. I notice this while casually glancing at his eyes at random points throughout. I also notice he tends to keep his eyes open a lot of the time while he is either kissing or intimate with me. The last time we were intimate together I decided to focus on looking at him more than I usually do. And I did not see the dilation or the darker black look. He also closed his eyes some of the time too.

        No other point to this except it jogged a thought in my memory and I wanted to share.

        1. Kathy Mor says:

          They watch our reactions to what they are doing. That’s why the eyes open… the pupils? Pure adrenaline. The thoughts….

          1. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            Kathy Mor,
            Yeah I figured that was why. Makes sense I guess. What does not make sense however were the times when I noticed that his eyes were closed while kissing me. And then there were also times where I did not see the dilation.

          2. Kathy Mor says:

            Maintenance. He was just maintaining, not building up. So he just put enough energy to respond back to you. That’s all.

          3. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            Interesting. So essentially I am interpreting what you are saying is that it is part “maintaining” (the occasional closing of the eyes mixed in with the loving eye contact) and then also part “adrenaline/fuel seeking” (the eyes wide open, black, etc.) ? Did I get that right?

            And sadly, yes, the last few times I was intimate with him I was paying more attention to these variations to see what was happening.

          4. Kathy Mor says:

            When I say “maintenance” I mean… he is just doing it because it is what he is supposed to do. You hug him, he hugs you back.
            For instance my narcissist would have those “love” looks not because he loved me. Those loving eye contacts were a response to my reaction to what he was doing: I had pleasure, I enjoyed it, so I approved HIM. So that was his source of pleasure: the approval. Therefore, I must like him. Love him. It is not genuine love or pleasure that a normal guy would feel for sharing the moment.

            It is very easy to misinterpret what they do because it is exactly the same to what we do. Besides he may enjoy the physical contact but it is not personal. It is like enjoying a massage given by a complete stranger. So don’t get hooked up because it is never about you. It is all about him. How good your reaction makes him feel, be it positive or negative.

          5. Fuel on the Shelf says:


            How the hell am I supposed to tell the difference?

            And your comment…

            “So that was his source of pleasure: the approval.”

            THIS really struck me. I also watch his expressions and how HE reacts to everything I am doing too! I do it because I want to make him feel good. I guess I am seeking approval in the same manner?

            How come whenever I start commenting on this type of stuff and I hear things being shared about what they do and why they do it, why does it always make me feel like I am the one who is the narc?

          6. Kathy Mor says:

            I can speak only for myself…
            the way I understand the difference is that there is no difference. The ends are all the same. Not matter what reaction he shows, it is about him. Fuel. If he got fuel or if he didn’t get the fuel he expected. That’s the reaction.
            It is not about love or affection all ‘‘this other stuff” that normal people feel. Nope. It is about his fuel.
            If your guy is truly a narcissist, you have to keep in mind that it is ALWAYS ALL about him, even when you don’t understand how and why, when and what. Somewhere, somehow, someway whatever you did gave him fuel or not. It can be obvious, it can be subtle, it can be big or little. It doesn’t matter. So, to know the difference is irrelevant. He is using you and others to get fuel.

            Believe me. I watched my narc too. Every reaction. Every nuance of his voice. Every pause in his breath. His pulse. His scents. Every change of temperature on his skin, his body. His taste. Every little tiny bit of energy didn’t go unnoticed. The changes in his energy level from high energy level to low energy level. His reactions. His facial expressions.
            My connection with him was such that I could physically feel the magnetism between the two of us. As soon as our hands touched lightly I could feel this electrical buzzing going through my entire body. It made me feel warm and “together”. As we held our hands longer, our energies blended together like a perfect match. I would relax with him like I didn’t with anyone before but deep inside, I had an uncomfortable sensation that something was not what it seemed to be. I felt as if he was grooming me to something else.
            We would melt into each other and one thing that always puzzled me was the fact that I never wanted to leave. If so, why did he always seem to want to leave?

            Can you see yourself here, Fuel of the Shelf?

            The thoughts running clearly in the back of my mind and I kept putting them away.

            At those moments, my narc was soft, warm, cozy….. ABSORBING. I felt as if he was sucking me into himself. The sensation was REAL and I thought that it was “love” because of the nature of our relationship. However, everything else happening around that “feeling” was everything but love. But that feeling could only be love, right?
            Wrong. I had NO clue what a narcissist was. No clue. I hadn’t the slightest idea that this is what they do; that this is what they are looking for. But I also could clearly see that it was like being sucked into a black hole because it doesn’t matter how much you give, it will never be enough. Once it enters him, it disappears. It is like eating cotton candy. It looks good, soft. The colors are beautiful, they make the child crave it. But once the cotton touches the tongue, it is gone! That’s how my energy felt to him. It fed him for a while but then it wasn’t enough any longer.

            I mentioned this before and I will repeat here because it was the most bizarre experience I ever had. I hope this helps some to understand this exchange of energy better because it is REAL, palpable. One time I met my narc for coffee. It was a nice autumn Sunday morning. The sun was warm, the air cold. Contrast. The weather was beautiful and yet I had this feeling of death. I remember stopping as I walked to him wondering if I had sensed something from some of those people around. No response. I elevated my energy level to sense better. No response. So I looked at him. He stared at me attentive like a wolf.
            We were at Starbucks. He asked me what I had sensed?
            I said… nothing.
            He knew of my psychic senses. He had had experience enough that he knew I didn’t bullshit. Why would I?
            But that day I didn’t answer his questions. Instead I switched my focus back into him, but on the back of my mind I was guarded. Something was wrong. But what?

            We were drinking coffee and inadvertently I put my right arm close to his left arm and immediately the hair on my arm stood up as in electrostatic energy. I looked down quietly and I had goosebumps right in the area where our arms were touching! Not the entire arm. Just on that little area. Then I felt as if he was sucking my energy into himself! I FELT his arm pulling it off from me like an invisible “Hoover” sucking it in. I was shocked! I stared at him. I couldn’t help. He got scared probably because my face was not very friendly. I asked if he was doing well. He asked me why I was asking that question. I said: because you are starving of energy. Because you look tired, beaten, weak as if you have not slept in a week!

            I almost said wasted and malnourished but I held my tongue. I knew him enough to know how far I could go saying things without “wounding” him.

            I paid attention to his arm. Of course he said he had been missing me and wanted to see me… that he has been so busy… all that bs crap.
            Anyways, it became obvious to me that he was depleted, had no one to give him fuel, his family just drains and what they give back is not quality fuel because they aren’t Empaths. So he came to me. STARVING. Literally like a puppy with his tail between his legs!

            He thanked me for meeting him for coffee. I kindly quietly removed my arm away because I felt violated… and very tired. Tired. I didn’t understand know why but i didn’t want him to touch me.
            Well he felt it immediately. He followed me to my car. Without asking he jumped in. Then he jumped on me physically. Oh yes. He is somatic to the tenth power and to stop him from grabbing me and literally tearing my clothes off and taking me right there was like fighting a tiger. The more I resisted, the more he wanted it. He tried everything in his arsenal to get me under. I had no clue wtf was going on.
            Finally he hurt me physically and I began crying. He stopped but there was no remorse. Nothing. He was cold stoned looking at me. Then suddenly He grabbed me again even stronger and I screamed in pain. My legs were bruising and I don’t bruise easily. He torn off my panties and said… if I want to, I can take you right here, right now. I don’t give a fuck to police. Do you understand it?
            I said yes I do!
            So he would stop it. He didn’t. Then grabbed me harder and bite my shoulder. I screamed again and I was ready to seriously hurt him when he slowed down a bit and said that he was not ready to let me go. That he would never be ready to let me go. That I was not going anywhere because he would kill me. He asked me if I understood him. I said yes. But he said: no you don’t. You don’t know who I am, Kathy.
            And you are mine, all mine. You are mine and you will always be mine. And he attached me again…. until it became sexual. He drove me away to his place. He never humiliated me. He just … he would lose control and if I didn’t scream he would hurt me. He couldn’t control it sometimes. I always had bite marks, bruises. The fact that my body was in shape drove him even crazier. It was like a wild beast feasting.

            After that he became the most controlling person I ever met in my whole life, going psychotic on the phone if I didn’t text him back within 5 minutes. He wanted to know where I was at all times, clinging to me.

            But I could sense the coldness behind his words, the lack of trust. He could have locked me up in a cage in the middle of the desert that he would think I was cheating on him with someone.

            I just didn’t understand what it was. I couldn’t make sense out of his emotional outbursts, the fury, the neediness, the fear of abandonment. I could only see the injure child in him screaming, a wound so deep that doesn’t heal. I was the medicine to that and he clung to me like I was his life.

            If I have met HG years ago and had learned the name of that, I would have left him at the appropriate time when he was calmer. But I didn’t understand what was going on so I stayed trying to help him. I saw similarities between him and my ex guy but I didn’t connect the dots. It was obvious to me.

            Usually when I get this close to someone, especially physically touching someone, I receive some sorta of extra sensorial input. I go as far as to say that all of us receive input from people who we relate to and by touching someone is one of those forms. Some of us pay attention to how the touch feels and what comes to our mind. Some of us are oblivious to this and brush off any perceptions away.
            Well, I am one of those who pay attention. And I pay attention to the images that come to my mind.

            The things I saw about my narc were never good. It was always painful, dark, sick, and I always tried to make better… I didn’t attribute the bad to his own doing…. to the narcissism which is his coping mechanism. The fear is so concrete that you can’t break through it. That’s why to talk about Karma with them is like bs. They don’t believe it and they don’t want to because if they do, then they know they are going to get it. It makes no sense. If you boil down to the real root of this is fear. Fear of getting hurt again. So, there is this whole presentation that they put to the world, that they are big, powerful, almighty. The fury that kills and destroys. The hate. All this hides the pain, the fear, the wounded little boy abandoned, abused.
            As humans we can do nothing to help. We just co-exist. We brush against each other. We roll in bed. We hurt. We heal. We live on.

            Do not matter what, at this point is fuel that he looks for. He may not be HG that understands his own nature. He may be like my narc who just goes from one to another leaving a trail of destruction behind while honestly believing that he is entitled to have his needs met not matter what. It is about fuel… until it won’t be any longer. But that is not our call to make…

            since you are still seeing your narc, start paying more attention to what you feel, to the very subtle sensations, thoughts. A lot of answers are there. Narcissists are fascinating. Just too dangerous to my type. I know I can’t resist them yet. I am well aware of my weaknesses. So I come here. I go to HG and his readings…

            And I attract needy people just because… I don’t know why. I really have no clue. I was at the beach yesterday… with my son. I parked the car miles away from everyone. Everybody that came to that area HAD TO come and talk to me. I was trying to relax alone and I could see people staring at me and then moving closer and closer and began small talk. I was irritated but polite enough to not kill them so irritated I was. And they kept telling me all kinds of weird stuff, personal stuff. I am like: does it look like I am a nurse? Why are people telling me this? Why do they bother to walk to me to talk? WTH is this?
            Finally had enough and left. But it is like all the time so I think I send off vibes? I have people chasing me at stores asking me about clothes! WTH is that?
            So I don’t know. I think we send off certain vibes that attract certain types of people. Again, it doesn’t matter. It is about fuel.
            Thank you for listening to my thoughts… this is the ONLY place I can talk and people understand me…

          7. Jasmine says:

            Kathy Mor,

            Oh yes, I understand you well and if I wasn’t trying to type this out in my phone, I’d elaborate But this really stood out to me:

            “”My connection with him was such that I could physically feel the magnetism between the two of us. As soon as our hands touched lightly I could feel this electrical buzzing going through my entire body. It made me feel warm and “together”. As we held our hands longer, our energies blended together like a perfect match. I would relax with him like I didn’t with anyone before but deep inside, I had an uncomfortable sensation that something was not what it seemed to be. “”

            It felt electrifying when the nex would touch me. Even with the other psychotics and sociopaths previously tainting my world in dark drab colors.. this one was different.

            I suppose that’s why this whole mess had thrown me for a leap. Or perhaps it was my own fault for trusting him so completely. Even trusting him with my life.

            #epicfail Apparently I’m his for life. I got the “if I can’t have you, no one can” line too

          8. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            Kathy Mor,
            A large part of this really triggered and struck me and you are/were definitely not alone in the sensations you have experienced from him. I am about ready to pass TF out but I will reply more tomorrow.

          9. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            Okay Kathy Mor, I have re-read your reply a few times and I am ready to finally share my thoughts…

            What you have pretty much described has been exactly what I have experienced with Piano boy, with exception to him forcing himself on me. He has never done that before. If anything he has been the extreme opposite (aka: a total gentleman) in summation of your middle paragraphs. But a vast majority of the rest of what you have written I have also experienced (along with some slight variations of course).

            In regard to the sexual assault you describe and your narc being forceful against you….are you/were you IPPS? IPSS? DLS? Was he mid-range? Piano boy is mid range and I am a DLS so I wonder if that matters here, why I never experienced the sexual assault like behavior. As in, would I be hidden from such a dark side if one did exist within him? Maybe he saved that for his wife or it just was not his thing? His personality has always been rather mellow no matter what is going on. His attitude towards sex is that it is his weakness, his vice. There are times when he needs to indulge and there are times when he does not care to at all (and if he does indulge me during that time it tends to be “sub par”).
            He is either “OMG I want you so bad I cannot resist” or “Bleh, I am not in the mood because what we are are doing is wrong!”. And even when he is in the “OMG I want you” state of mind he has never forced himself on me. He usually follows MY lead before getting into it. In fact he will often repeatedly ask “are you okay? Is this okay? Are you sure? Am I hurting you?” stuff like that. Almost like he does not trust that I want him and want to indulge with him.

            So unfortunately a few of your middle paragraphs did not match up to what I have experienced.

            However a large majority of what you wrote in your first several paragraphs DOES resonate. Such as….

            “My connection with him was such that I could physically feel the magnetism between the two of us. As soon as our hands touched lightly I could feel this electrical buzzing going through my entire body. It made me feel warm and “together”. As we held our hands longer, our energies blended together like a perfect match.”


            “We would melt into each other and one thing that always puzzled me was the fact that I never wanted to leave. If so, why did he always seem to want to leave?”

            “Can you see yourself here, Fuel of the Shelf?” ~Yes, see below,

            I felt/feel the magnetism CONSTANTLY when I am with Piano boy. I feel it when he touches my hand, when he hugs me, kisses me and when we are intimate together. I could be standing across the room or he could be sitting next to me in my car and I could still feel it in the air….the electricity. I also feel it when I hear his voice on the phone too. My body feels electrically charged when I am intimate with him. I can never get enough. I love the way he smells, the way he tastes, he is practically a syringe of heroin to me, although I have a fear of needles so I would choose him. And (sorry TMI) never has anyone made me so wet where I am leaking down my legs. This happens from him holding me and cradling my face in his hands. Of course he enjoys all of it and eats it up (figuratively and literally). It is utterly INSANE.

            “I looked down quietly and I had goosebumps right in the area where our arms were touching! Not the entire arm. Just on that little area.”

            I have felt this too but to me I feel it in my entire body. To me it feels powerful, intoxicating, euphoric as I explained above. Like I need to physically “merge” with him immediately. He gives me goosebumps and butterflies. I have gone 4 times with him in one evening before. 4 times!

            I think a drug addict in withdrawal probably has it easier than me at this point. I swear if I ever see him again I need to say “Dinner only tonight, please. I can pick up a syringe of heroin on the way home rather than indulge with you!” I wonder how that would go (if he was in the “OMG I want you mood”) since I have never said no to him.

            And I never wanted to leave either but he always did. He always did and he would always tell me I am “getting too close”.

            “Of course he said he had been missing me and wanted to see me… that he has been so busy… all that bs crap.”

            I have heard all of this too. I am tired. I had a bad day today. I have been busy. We had this convo while he was sitting in the car next to me. I touched his leg and said “I could think of a few ways to cheer you up…” He says “Oh not tonight, I am so tired”. I did not force the situation but I did tell him how much I wanted him. We ended up driving to his office and going at it there. And believe me he was anything BUT tired for that.

            He has made several comments during our intimacy which at at the time I attributed to him just sounding romantic. “I need to be connected to you”. That is an odd way of saying such is it not? I have heard “I want to be inside you” but using the term “connected”….what am I? some kind of electrical outlet? Plug yourself in (literally) and here is the light bulb turning on in the lamp? That is the context that I now relate that to.

            Two other comments were “I feel like your soul is touching my soul” and “When I am with you I feel like I have the endurance where I am running a marathon yet I feel high at the same time”. Such an odd thing to say.

            “But he said: no you don’t. You don’t know who I am, Kathy.”

            This triggered a comment Piano boy made to me once where he said “The version of me you have drummed up in your head is not real. You tell me that I am (insert list of things you say here) but I am not those things anywhere else but inside your head”

            I guess that is indirectly saying that I do not know who he is?

            I always keep saying I have not seen the darkness. Is has to be there though right? Even if I cannot see it?

            Am I still seeing him? I have no idea. He has not said he wants a break but he got upset and told me I am getting too close and he is getting uncomfortable. He keeps whining about his guilt and shame and his wife is about to give birth to their 2nd kid any day now. I am definitely on the shelf.

            Your last paragraph about people coming to you and talking to you. That happens to me ALL THE TIME. I hate it too. I try to be friendly but it makes me SO UNCOMFORTABLE. Total strangers. On the beach. In the store. In line somewhere. On the train or plane. The clothing stores too!! I get that all the time. No one things I work there but I am asked how stuff looks and what I think about XYZ article of clothing. It makes me uncomfortable to be rude and dismiss the conversation.

            Hey it is nice to know I am not alone in that regard.

            The stuff about your narc forcing himself on you sexually was frightening to read and I am so sorry that happened to you. Is that type of behavior dependent upon the type or narc? Everything else I have read and shared here always goes back to the notion that they operate from the “same book”. That is the one thing from your situation that I was not able to relate to (thankfully) but of course I still wonder if his wife is subjected to that.

      2. renatadavies says:

        Yes! the pupil just become so big. I was wondering if he was into cocaine or something. Then the big green eyes become all black, like a black spell or black magic or some demon possessing his body to kill me. If i die first of him i will hunt him until see him crazy eating shit in some hospital. I will make him suffer for years using his own memories of selfish and cruelity. I promisse that.

        1. Kathy Mor says:

          That is my promise to mine. I will fucking haunt him after he dies. He is mine to do as I wish and I promise you… I want a whole lot! Lol!

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