Shell Shocked Silence


I was in a consultation with Dr E. We had been discussing the various methods by which I obtained fuel and the conversation had largely been given over to the question of the methods of obtaining negative fuel from those that I had ensnared.

“Tell me,” continued Dr E, ” about one of your favoured states to place a victim in.”

“Tough call that Dr E, I have several.”

“Select one then and tell me about it.”


“I am interested to ascertain what one the states is and in particular what you get from that.”

“Haven’t you been listening? I told you that it is the fuel that I obtain from their emotional reactions, especially the negative ones. That is what I get from these situations.”

“I recognise that but I have seen, through our consultations, that everything you do serves a multiplicity of purposes. Everything of course leads to the harvesting of your fuel but I have seen you gain other things beside your fuel.”

“Such as?”

“I have made notes but I do not want to prime you, I want you to describe the situation and then explain to me what you get from it,” pressed Dr E. I sat and regarded him for a moment. I tried to ascertain if he was getting something else from asking me about this. You see, I have worked out that Dr E is a rascal for projecting. He cannot help himself. He will suggest a methodology applicable to me when in fact what he is talking about is a methodology he wishes to apply. In this instance he was trying to get me to talk about the multiple benefits of a given scenario whereas what I knew was that he was getting more from this discussion than just receiving an answer to that question. I know your game Dr E. You think you are smarter than me but you are not. Still, I decided to indulge him. There was no need to let him know that I was on to his method.

“Okay. One of the situations that I like to create is one of a shell shocked silence.” Dr E began to write. I waited for his reaction before proceeding.

“I see. Please explain more to me.”

“Well, we have discussed at length the various manipulative methods that I apply to get fuel which bring about control and the diminution in my target’s capability to resist me. I lower their critical thinking,  maximise their isolation and increase their reliance on me. The sustained and repeated application of these techniques often leads down the road to my target being left in a state of shell shock.”

I waited as Dr E continued to make his notes. He scratched his nose and then spoke.

“Do you do anything in particular that brings about this shell shocked state?” he asked.

“It is the culmination of a variety of manipulative techniques but there needs to be a final flourish, something that will tip this person over the edge into their numbed silence.”

“Such as?” he queried.

“Well, I find that a sudden escalation of a certain act or behaviour tends to tip the balance. It might be the violent destruction of something that they love right in front of them that causes them to stand shaking unable to speak. On another occasion I may reveal that I have been engaged in an affair with someone they trusted and felt close to, say a best friend or a family member. I do recall that once I was having sex with Alex and part way through I told her ‘By God Joanne you are so much better at this than Alex’. Truth be told it is really about the build up, the campaign has to be such that any resistance and ability to fight back must be totally eroded so that when this coup de grace is applied they are just plunged into a broken silence.”

“I see but how does silence provide you with fuel?”

“Easily. It is the tortured look on their face that provides me with the fuel, the strangled sob, the look of total and utter defeat in their eyes. Those tears which trickle down their face as they look at me in a mixture of horror and disbelief. I have told you before about how a wildebeest has that strange expression on its face, something between terror and confusion as a lion eats it alive. It is the same there. Bringing about such an expression combined with this silence produces premium fuel.”

I stretch as I savour the memories which flood my mind at the mention of this technique.

“What is it about that reducing this person to such a state that appeals to you beyond this level of fuel that you obtain?” asked Dr E.

“The fact that is demonstrates that I have total hegemonic control over them.”

“Leaving you able to do what?”

“Anything I like. After all, nobody prevents me from doing what I want.”

“By rendering them into this state you remove their capacity to object to whatever you do?” he queried.

I nod.

“But surely that makes them little more than an automaton and if that is the case how can they be of use to you in such a state? I should have though that they would now be devoid of providing you with the reaction that you require?”

“But this state is a reaction in itself Dr E, it is a pinnacle of the campaign and represents triumph on my part, it exemplifies my supremacy and my power and the desolate eyes, trembling mouth and forlorn expression all amount to a reaction and a satisfying one at that.”

“I see,” said Dr E and he continued to write. I waited for him to finish the sentence in his notebook before he looked at me.

“And of course ultimately there is something else that arises from this shell shocked silence.”

“What is that?” he asked.

“Silence gives consent.”


336 thoughts on “Shell Shocked Silence

  1. Lori says:

    Oh my gosh something just occurred to me. I was canipss for quite awhile. He told his wife once about an affair when she ask him point blank.i said why did you tell her ? He said cause she asked. I said what happened after . I was going to divorce her but We worked things out after awhile.

    I ask him are you talking to someone else ? He answerred yes. I was shell shocked. That was nearly 9 months ago He did this very thing to his wife. Was this him testing me to see if I’m replacement ipps material? He hadn’t spoken to me in 6 months but is he gonna show back up and try to patch things up and if I take the bait then I’m suitable ?

    The reason I ask this is bevause this is a pattern he has had with his wife and I think maybe others but not all I think maybe just some of us that he has seriously considered replacing his wife with and would a strategy like that go on this long ? Maybe I’m getting a little far fetched witb this?

  2. Empath says:

    Hey Jenna,

    Thanks for your comments. I keep losing my place reading through these comments. I wish they loaded in chronical order. Anyway, yes after five years in it was hard. Great observation you made whether to even refer to it as a “relationship” or that they are an “ex”. I call him my psycho mainly, lol. And the relationship as an “alternative reality”.

    The false identity really made my perceptions of reality distorted because it was not just that his feelings were false…it was ALL false…beginning with his NAME! His career was false, the family members and friends were false, his HOME was false, his marital status was false, his sexual identity was false, his childhood history, his adoption, I mean everything. EVERYTHING!!! I was beginning to grasp onto his diagnosis the last year we were together so when it finally all came out I was almost relieved because I thought I was going crazy. I knew something was definitely off about him but he still was being loving and kind to me, just saw him less than he used to…so the abuse check box, borrowing money check box, those did not fit. He was generous, never asked for money, always had plenty. I shudder to think what he actually did to earn all that money he spent on me. Working as a maintenance man (his real job) was not his only source of income. I suspect he was a male escort, for men but I will never know for sure-and don’t want to know.

    What hurt me was the loss of his companionship. Because of course, he was my ideal companion. We had not made marital plans so my “future” wasn’t destroyed and I didn’t move for him or anything like that, so I was not uprooted. Just mind-f#$@ked. I got out lucky, I know. I wanted to collapse but I couldn’t, I’ve got two boys I am raising and had to keep functioning. You should have seen me trying to explain this situation to them, no one could believe it. This man had permeated my entire circle, family, friends, coworkers, etc…it was a monumental task to announce to them it was all a deliberate 5 yr long enormous hoax.

    I am on solid ground now but imagine it will be years before I recover.

    1. jenna says:

      Hi empath,

      He really lied about everything didn’t he? I’m so very sorry you had to endure that. The mmrn I knew lied too, but at least I knew his real name, his real job, and family. I wonder if HG can do an article on degrees of fakery. It seems like you are a great mom and motivated towards health in order to raise your boys well. I think you will do a great job now that narc is gone. In order to speed up your recovery, may I suggest an audio consult? I am not trying to be HG’s promoter, but I honestly do not think I would have progressed so quickly following disengagement If it were not for the audio consults. Following narc experience, I have completely changed, for the better I believe. I am trying to rewire my brain towards less narcissistic tendencies (as we all have them) by choosing empathy each and every time. So far, I do notice a difference. I am more at peace, less anxiety, less sensitive, and generally more happy. Continued healing to you empath🌷

      1. MB says:

        Jenna, I agree 100%. The audio consults are invaluable. Less expensive and more efficient than therapy. HG, when are you going to start taking mental health insurance?

      2. Empath says:

        Hi Jenna & MB,

        Thanks for your advice. I think I would freak out talking to a self aware Narcissist, even with someone so polite and articulate as H.G. appears to be. (Wink wink H.G.) I can barely handle reading this blog because I find the Narcissistic perspective so polar opposite of my own. I’m afraid I would be profane and undignified to Master Tudor. I am really here mostly out of curiosity because I love to over analyze anything that is psychologically challenging to me. Since I have police involved and children to protect I am not afraid of hoovers to draw me back in-my entire inner circle would discredit me and the police would dismiss me-and worst of all my children would disrespect me.. If I disappear one day-and I think the chances of that are low because he is nonviolent and an upper midranger IMO-all that know me will know who is responsible.

        I have realized by reading this blog that my son’s father is also a Narcissist and have basically cut off all direct contact with him. I am desperately trying to demonstrate to my children the proper way to respect and and treat women as they become men. They are the driving force behind me that keeps me moving forward. Without them I fear I would be subject to remaining in that situation forever…I think about why someone would remain and I think I do understand. If you have little value in yourself and you also are not fighting to set a strong example for your kids, your ability to pull out of the addiction and trauma bond would be nearly impossible. I absolutely give H.G. credit in that regard…he was/is a strong final affirmation for me, but must be an absolute revelation to those who have not done the research and just happen to come upon his blog or You Tube.

        I had studied hours of You Tube and never had come across his work because it is all under Narcissist and not Sociopath. In my research not all Narcissists are Sociopaths but all Sociopaths ARE Narcissists. Perhaps the term Narcissist will be the term most people search for but it wasn’t in my case. Other than being overly concerned with his looks, I did not dream that psycho I was involved with was a pathological liar or that anyone could behave in this manner. He did not behave self-centered, he was patient, kind, generous, year after year, not just the first 3 months…so the term “Narcissism” was not even on my radar. He also embraced everyone I know and loved-and wanted to be around my friends and family-not push them away. He also encouraged me about my career changes and interests and joined in. I know this was the golden period but it went on year after year…so freaking bizarre.

        I am in therapy and have asked my therapist to review Tudor’s work. I am working with a physician for pharmaceutical treatment as well. I am present for my kids and show up for work each day and do my best. I have educated myself extensively on Sociopathy from a psychological perspective, a victim perspective, and now from a Narcissist perspective. In summary, these people are disordered and are not interested in changing because they are satisfied with who they are. From the very beginning of any relationship with one they are predatory in nature and intentionally malicious. I am not sure what H.G. could explain to me other than that because I do accept it 100%. H.G. just provided the absolute proof. Which enrages me but as he says, is what the empaths need to hear-the cold hard logic. It is just so toxic to read some of your work H.G., because the behavior is so inhumane. Not just “mean”.

        I realized in time that my psycho targeted me because I had kids, he targets single moms, because we are so busy we do not have time to question and double check all of the lies that they tell. We are usually overwhelmed and that also makes us a delicious choice for fuel-to have someone be kind and supportive show up and provide just the kind of T.L.C. we need; we are even more appreciative than just a single person. Geez. That is the worst of the worst. It is hard enough to be a single parent, much less become entrapped in a Narcissist’s evil web. This guy had a beautiful voice and performed in nursing homes and embraced the residents with such compassion. It was mesmerizing to watch him give his music straight from his heart, especially for an empath and a medical professional. ALL A COMPLETE AND UTTER FARCE!!! It gives me the heebie jeebies knowing this guy is still working at yet another retirement home doing God knows what. I was able to get him fired when I found out where he worked. He truly has the ultimate cover of darkness.

        In my mind though, I only have myself to blame…although he was an excellent liar and actor, I stopped listening to my instincts when my emotions overtook my logical thinking. In hindsight and education it really is unbelievable the behaviors I readily excused because I made myself believe every word he said-there was always a “plausible explanation” provided to me for his questionable behavior. He even correlated this by having friends and family reaffirm them. He had at least 5 or 6 phone numbers of people that he worked with or he was acting as to support his persona, including a sister who I personally met.

        Some well meaning people think the psycho I was involved with may have actually slightly cared for me because he did not endear himself to my children (which would have been the killer blow if he had wanted my complete devotion) and the fact he did not steal or abuse me in a violent sort of way. From reading H.G. and from my own analysis based upon my research, it is clear he never even slightly cared, and I think the only reason he had not done those things to me is because he was going to just disappear. He likely didn’t target my kids because he was satisfied with my ensnarement without them.

        His wife caught him and he called me and confessed without revealing his identity and then disappeared. I hired a P.I. and learned his real identity otherwise I would have spent the rest of my life wondering who I had spent the last 5yrs with. It was truly surreal.

        I do intend on purchasing a few of H.G.’s books just to keep as a reference and will likely soon disengage from this blog. Writing about what happened keeps it churned up, H.G. even states this, and I do not want this poison pumping through my blood supply. I may write my story some day because of the sheer insanity of it seems to interest people; the relationship and the hoovers are equally bizarre. I sometimes think this might help me to get it out. I try to weigh in my mind if I should release it by writing, or does that willingly keep me embroiled in it? What do you think H.G.? Write or not write? Your writing is an ongoing part of your therapy to understand yourself. My writing would be an attempt to purge myself so this victim story is excised from my psyche. I enjoy writing as do you, but of course you are superior in your articulation and elequence.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Many victims may well find writing cathartic in that it enables you to express yourself when you are not able to do so to the narcissist (nor should you bother trying to for reasons I have explained elsewhere). I would certainly advocate doing so for the purposes of your own recovery but not for the purposes of publication. There are many victim accounts already out there and whilst they have a degree of value, they do not explain everything and get many elements wrong about our kind.

      3. Empath says:


        Thanks for your answer regarding writing…as part of my ongoing therapy I did write a lengthy letter to the Sociopath I was involved with the last 5yrs…not to send, but to vent. I WOULDN’T DARE give him that negative fuel. I put it off for a long time, afraid I would weep and be full of despair trying to write about all of his transgressions…and saying goodbye to the fantasy he had created in my mind. It was very much like the voyage upon the Narcissist yacht you described! (Excellent writing there H.G., loved the analogy)..uh, oh wait, but of course. Eyes rolling.

        Much to my surprise, as I began writing my letter, I did not become overcome with sorrow, I became cataclysmically enraged instead! I created a profanity-laced manifesto. It was awesome and I read it to my therapist instead of my narc. It was embarrassing to read aloud with the language I used but the circumstances definitely called for it.

        Anyway, I just wanted to say, if I do write my story up some day, I assure you I would reference your work in addition to a few others that really helped me. My therapist purchased one of your books and is enjoying it, btw. I ordered the exorcism book myself, because I’ve got more cleansing to do, especially the remnants of his essence in my home. I still feel the need to scrub down every inch of it with straight bleach, myself included, even after 8 months of NO CONTACT, I am that disgusted that I ever let this man anywhere near me, much less into my house!

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Have you read and/or did you submit A Letter to the Narcissist here on the blog?

      4. jenna says:

        Hi empath,
        I did not receive your comment in my inbox so I apologize for the delayed response.
        No need to freak out over a consult with HG. He will make you feel at ease, but of course it’s your choice.
        I am sorry your son’s father turned out to be a narc, but knowledge is power and now you know to keep him away! I am happy to read that you are trying to set a great role model for your kids. Hopefully with that kind of upbringing, they will turn out to be empaths! Your ex sounds horrible targeting single moms. I am glad you are away from him. When your therapist reads HG’s work, she will be able to understand your situation better. I asked one of my therapists to read HG’s work when I found him. I think she even commented here but not sure it was her. We need more mental health workers aware of HG’s work and every little bit counts! Your story is sad, as many stories here are, but I am glad you are here trying to heal. Continued healing to you empath🌷

  3. Indy says:

    Silence is often one of the first lessons we are taught when we are abused (either by parents, many sectors of society, religions, or those who have power over us). It is not consent, it is a survival mechanism, like the rabbit in the bush. Frozen still, quiet, and hidden.

    And, yes, this is also a good reminder to those of us that are safe to not remain silent about the lessons we have learned about being abused. Speak up and speak out. Have boundaries and maintain them. Never be ashamed for doing what you had to do to SURVIVE. Victim blamers are a dime a dozen. Don’t be one, especially against yourself. I’ve moved thousands of miles and hid longer to escape. The first time I said “no” and went to walk out, I had a knife pointed at me and the door blocked. Silence kept me alive. I left in the dark. And I remained camouflaged to raise my child safely away from his father. And still, the lessons come even after we survive 1, 2, or 20 situations…mine continues on the nuances of abuse dynamics and specifically narcissistic, psychopathic, sociopathic, and other isideous abuses. I’m in my tower and have been for 2.5 years. Life still happens. Just when I thought I was safe and bolted up, the wolves come to sniff at the doors and look for cracks…at least now I see them for what they are doing…more narcissistic supply (fuel). So, onto living life….without shame. Survival before all else. Once safe, then what? Make “a life worth living”. Towers do not make a life.

    1. Twilight says:

      Hello Indy

      How have you been?

      1. Indy says:

        Hi Twilight!
        I’m good, had a lovely holiday with the family. Had a recent hoover over the past few weeks from the ex narc from a different number after not hearing from him since his last hoover attemp in 2016. It rattled me. I’m settling back again tho.

        How are you doing?

        1. Twilight says:

          Hi Indy,

          Glad to read your settling back in after your hoover.

          I am doing great! Just perfecting mixing oils and natural herbs.

    2. jenna says:

      Hi Indy,

      Nice to see you! You have come back at the time of this ‘shell shocked silence’ article just as I have! I read that you received a hoover. I hope you are safe.

      1. Indy says:

        Hi Jenna,
        How funny we both popped on at the same time! I hope you are doing well! I’m safe, no worries. Just continuingly reminded how corrrct HG is, down to tiny details, about the past ex narcissist and the nature of narcissism in general. I really thought I wouldn’t hear from him again and yet…a cluster of calls from this number…after marrying someone so quickly after I ended the relationship (we were engaged when I left), that he’d use another number I would not know. Once I realized it was him, I looked back at my call logs and he had been calling several times over the past. It triggered an emotional response in me that was hard to shake. I didn’t respond to him and I blocked tho I’m starting to see that each successful hoover has its toll (like a ptsd response of fear and anger.). Even tho I don’t respond, I’m gettong this concept of thought fuel as it did have an effect on me, even if I didn’t respond…and they know it.

        I’m safe tho. How are you?

        1. windstorm says:

          Hey, Indy!

          Always miss you. Glad you’re back, but sorry you were hoovered.

          1. Indy says:

            Hi Windstorm!

            So nice to hear from you! Ah, you know the business with hoovers…always a risk for those of us after leaving. I can only make it harder for him to hoover, though not impossible. It had been a good bit of time, so I was surprised to get the hoover attempts. It took me a little bit to calm my nerves, though I have now realized that he has moved on to another person and this is perhaps the start of her devaluation period and thus why I am hearing from him. I am sad for her, though it appears she may have left….not sure though. My next step is to not look and see what is going on, which is hard. It is so much easier for me to ignore than to stop monitoring. My weakness. Thus, I am back at the narcissist “12-step” group for a tune up.

            How are you doing?

          2. windstorm says:

            I’m doing fine. My big thing this year was I spent a month in Japan with my middle son (he was there for a year for his work). That was great, but very physically hard for me. Hope I can hold up next year to go to Alaska (last place on my bucket list!). If I’m unable to make that trip, at least I’ve flown over AK twice now! Lol!!

            My daughter’s having baby number 5 this February, so I keep the road hot from here to KS. Still volunteering at my old school and always loving being retired!!!

          3. Indy says:

            Hi Windstorm!
            Japan!! Where did you go in Japan? I spent a couple of weeks there in the southern island of Kyushu. It was transformative for me as I was young and fell in love with Japan. Alaska, wow. I have always wanted to go and I hope you get to. Indeed, you flew over!! Congratulations on your upcoming grand baby too!! So much going on, sounds amazing. Glad to hear you are doing well and living life!

          4. windstorm says:

            His apartment was in Yokohama. I would have loved to see Kyushu, but he said it was too far and would be too expensive. He did take me to Mt Fuji and he had me come in February so we could go to the snow and ice festival in Sapporo on his week off work. It was a wonderful experience, but very cold! I had a checklist of things I wanted to experience in Japan and he made sure I accomplished them all. I loved being there the weeks he worked every day, too. I got a very good experience of Japanese life.

            He is my one empathic son and always takes care of me. He upgraded my flights to business so I’d have more room and comfort. In 2016 he took me to Hawaii (bucket list since I was a child) and hopefully next year we’ll take the cruise to Alaska. Since I was about 9 I’ve wanted to see an erupting volcano and a glacier calve into the ocean. Just have the glacier left now. 😊

          5. MB says:

            WS, you need to add some stuff to that list. You ain’t checking out yet!

          6. NarcAngel says:

            He’s a good man to help you realize your goals. I bet he loves to be able to see you happy.

          7. windstorm says:

            I’m sure he does like to see me happy, but he also hates to inconvenience himself. He’s sort of passive-aggressive that way. He works long hours with lots of overtime and let’s face it, spending precious time off taking your old, half-crippled mother places is not much fun. But that he still does it anyway is a testament to what a good son he is.

          8. MB says:

            Indy, sorry to butt in but what you said about returning here really made an impression on me. I hope this place will be here for a long time to help us all in the times we need extra strength and support. It’s special. I don’t want to take it for granted so I’m expressing gratitude.

          9. Indy says:

            Hi MB,
            Yes, it is a special place here. Lots of lovely people with stories that show how strong they are for surviving and learning how to thrive afterwards or how to thrive while it is ongoing for those that cannot go no contact. HG helped me back in 2016 when I was in the process of leaving an abusive relationship. He guided me through the break up process (via several books) and guided me through the Initial Grand Hoover on the blog. (My grand hoover consisted of a blitz of calls and texts over a period of a week–about 300 messages total) HG helped me ignore them all. The folks here give tons of support. I am pretty strong though this process, I have found, requires a community of support, not just doing it alone. The people here are indeed special.

        2. jenna says:

          Hi Indy!
          I’m glad you did not respond to the hoovers and I am glad you are safe. We need to control the emotional thinking when the hoover occurs. I am doing well Indy. Thanks for asking. I am free of mmrn! It’s nice to see you!

  4. Michelle says:

    Early in my acquaintance with Narc Friend, we were discussing our childhoods and specifically how we were disciplined. Narc Friend said, “When my mother would yell at me, I knew I’d get away with things. When she was disappointed, that hurt.” At the time I thought that was really strange. As an empath I hate being yelled at; it feels like being injected with poisonous venom. But this was an early red flag. Narc Friend was getting fuel from his mother yelling at him so it empowered him. Criticism without fuel is wounding. He spelled out the whole equation for me right there.

    1. Jess says:

      Ooh that’s a good example. When she was disappointed she probably withdrew and didn’t know what to say. Makes sense…

    2. Alexissmith2016 says:

      Oh my goodness Michelle, your comment is so helpful. I absolutely hate being shouted too.

      I was working on a contract with a woman this week. At first she seemed incredibly caring and warm but she has dead eyes, I’ve observed this ‘mismatch’ in others before. On the third day some red flags started to seep through, one of them that she didn’t mind too much if her husband got angry with her, in fact she seemed to like it, but she couldn’t handle it when he was ‘disappointed’ like you say, a distinct lack of fuel.

      HG, does dead eyes always mean someone is a narcissist? I’ve interacted with a few people who have dead eyes who seemed really nice. I’m not talking about that vacant look of someone who has recently suffered at the hands of a narcissist. But rather eyes which just look like buttons, like there is nothing behind them.

      I’d also love to know the difference between narcisssits who have dead eyes and those who do not. What causes their eyes to be lifeless?

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Not necessarily, the person maybe a psychopath, who of course will be narcissistic to some degree.

      2. alexissmith2016 says:

        Thank you HG. So either way, they will be an N or a P but definitely not an empath.

        Helpful and interesting. It’s like playing a game of ‘Guess Who?’. Except instead of asking whether they’re wearing a hat or glasses, we can ask, Do they have dead eyes? Do they tell you you’re soulmates on first meet? Do they text or call you incessantly? Then you can flip them over and only the empaths are left standing.

        Well, except you of course HG, you invented the game after all so you know all the disguises and cheats.

  5. JustEmpath says:

    Wow, that was a great reading!

    HG, I think my ex used this. For example we were making love, sweet and tender and at the end he told me he likes to “” me. And then he looked at me to see my reaction. It was so inhuman, the difference between my loving warm kind feelings and his coldness. I was in shock but still I was able to tell him I don’t like when he uses this word. A month later (many manipulations in between, lowering my self worth) he did the same. Deep staring in my eyes. And I wasn’t able to react. I knew he planned it, I knew he did it to hurt me. The fact that he knew I don’t like it, the fact I knew he did it to provoke me left me speechless. I know dirty talk is not a big deal, people like it and probably I would like it too if I knew my partner loved me and didn’t do it to humiliate me but believe me – in this situatuon it felt like a rape. Pure evil.

    1. Original Overthinker says:

      Mine used to say f*ck to me also, he knew I didn’t like it.

      I am not naive or a prude, I liked fun, shag even sounds fun to me.

      In the most intimate way 2 people could be together, he did it to either provoke me as it made me feel like a dog on the street or to consciously or subconsciously cover his lack of emotion / connection.

    2. Caroline R says:

      I understood every word you said, and every one of your feelings. I’ve written similar things in my journal and in legal documents.

  6. Lori says:

    This happened to me when he told me another ipss had entered the picture. I was floored. I couldn’t speak. I should have expected it because he recounted once how he told his wife he was having an affair yep another red flag I failed to see

    1. shesaw says:

      Lori, let me guess… his wife stayed with him after she knew?

      1. Lori says:

        Yes she did. she’s still with him. I don’t hate her im not sm I jealous. This man was telling how much he wanted to be witb me with her sitting right there. He married her when she was very young. It is almost as if she is just the maid. They seem to have little relationship but who knows. I feel for her. This man admitted he has an affair early in his marriag then had another many years later. When I met him he had bedn having some online thing witb someone and he had to tell me bevause she was getting really hostile with me and I didn’t know why. He blocked said he never speak to her again that it had only been a couple of months. He said he’d do whatever not lose me. Now a few years later enter yet another woman and I’m the one getting blocked and all while this is happening he has a wife. These are just the women I know of l bet there are far more. I just believe some of us advance to canipss and some do not

  7. Jenna says:

    Hi everyone!

    I have some pending comments to reply to frm an article posted a couple of months ago, but I have to find it. I want to reply to each and every one of you that were so kind to comment on the passive hoover I received. Everything comes into my inbox without a filter so I must search for them.

    In the meantime, I MUST comment on this article. It’s the first time I am reading it. I guess I missed it when HG posted it previously. Holy smokes, THIS IS MEAN!!! I saw an interview with dahmer to get an idea of psychopaths (versus sociopaths) and I think the murderous ones like to see the victims gasping for air etc. This article reminded me of that. HG Tudor is an greater narcissistic psychopath, not sociopath. They are more evil. HG has great charm on the blog but he is being so fair with us to give us this reality. I was shivering when I read this article. He could have easily left this one out, but he did not. This is a HUGE benefit to us to not be fooled to exactly what he is. I am thankful to him for sharing this BRUTAL TRUTH! This article is the most disturbing on the blog for me! I wonder if HG would like to see his victims gasping for air while being choked? I hope not. My heart is racing as I even ask this question. I know he would not kill someone since a dead appliance is a useless appliance but I wonder if he would gain fuel from seeing that. Omg…

    Piano incident😞

    1. SMH says:

      I agree, Jenna. I am a bit shocked to read this. The scales have fallen from my eyes.

    2. NarcAngel says:

      Hi Jenna. I have thought about you and hope you are well.

      1. Jenna says:

        Hi NA!

        I think about you also and how our friendship here has blossomed😊
        Thank you for keeping me in your thoughts.

        I read the story of step narc asking the children to give away their favorite belongings, and it was sad to read. However, as always, you manage to inject humour into it by letting us know that obviously that couple did not turn up again. Lol! I wonder what was going through their minds – what a monster, these poor kids, why is she married to him etc. When other pple see narc behavior, I think they just have no clue… Thanks to HG, we have clues and more clues, and we can stay away.

        My life has been peaceful since narc discarded me (oops, disengaged sorry HG!). I don’t miss him at all. What’s there to miss? Nothing? Cos that’s what he is. Empty. He was pretty boring actually. His emptiness was evident. I wonder if only the midrangers are boring? Greaters are great talkers but it’s all borrowed I think.
        Great topic for an article HG? What would a narc talk about? The mmrn did not talk much, come to think of it. I used to talk more, and he would just add to whatever I was talking about. Or he would talk in memes borrowed frm the internet. Gross! But at the time I thought he was philosophical lol!

    3. windstorm says:

      Hey, Jenna! Good to hear from you! I was wondering about you just yesterday. Hope all is well!

      1. Jenna says:

        Hi windstorm,
        Thank you for thinking about me. Even I think about you and that is why I love this place. We think about each other and care for each other. Who is pretzel, btw? Is it your ex or your moron in munich? Lol I love his name moron in munich.

        1. Twilight says:

          Hi Jenna

          Happy to see you are doing much better.

          1. Jenna says:

            Hi Twilight,

            Thank you. I’ve missed interacting with you, but I am sure you may have sensed that, you being a contagion empath😀

          2. Twilight says:


            How was your Thanksgiving?

          3. jenna says:

            Hi Twilight!

            My thanksgiving was fun. I went to a party and had a nice time. The best part was that I wasn’t obsessing about a narc at the back of my mind, whereas earlier this yr, that was not be the case! How was your thanksgiving? Did you have turkey? 😋

            OK HG I will make this about narcissism somehow instead of a recipe exchange lol! I know that some narcs will never help in the kitchen due to their tendency to vanish whenever help is needed. But I noticed the mmrn liked to help in the kitchen because his superiority sometimes would not allow him to accept dinner made by someone else, when he is fully capable of cooking. So there are two opposite extremes here, but the underlying principle is the same – the narc chooses superiority.

          4. Twilight says:

            Hi Jenna,

            I am proud of you and how far you have come!

            My Thanksgiving was great, thank you. Spent it with family. I realize it was 9 years sense my husband died the day before. It was a strange feeling, I knew, he just wasn’t a thought anymore. This time of the year didn’t trigger me to actually think about him. I am finally free of him. Rarely do I think of the man who I dated after him (UMR), I did think about my ex, I came across some pictures I had stored in a box I was going through. Thought about the last Thanksgiving him and I spent together which led me to thinking about how HG found me, my contacting him and the consults I have had with him and his work.

          5. jenna says:

            Hi Twilight,

            Thank you for your kind words. I am happy to read that you were not triggered at this time of year. Sounds like we are both truly free!!! Thanks to HG and the lovely readers here we have progressed well! Nice to read you had a lovely holiday as well😊

          6. Jenna says:

            Idk why my gravatar is randomly changing designs. I am forest green and medium green here everyone. I am the same person. I do not put on different masks for different pple, like someone here we know! Sorry, HG, I couldn’t resist taking a jab at you!

        2. windstorm says:

          Hey Jenna
          Someone complained about me always saying “my exhusband” and wanted me to give him a nickname. NarcAngel came up with Pretzel MnM. I liked it because he’s twisted, hard and salty instead of sweet in a deceptive package (I have bought pretzel MnM’s by mistake thinking they were regular MnM’s).

          1. MB says:

            Awww WS, I didn’t complain. He just needed a colorful name to go along with his colorful persona on the blog. Pretzel MnM is perfect!

          2. jenna says:

            Haha! Leave it to NA to come up with the perfect name! I got confused because MnM can also be an acronym for ‘Moron in Munich’😝

    4. K says:

      Hello Jenna and Happy Thanksgiving! Good to see you!

      1. jenna says:

        Hi K!

        Thank you and good to see you too! Hope you had a nice thanksgiving as well!

    5. K says:

      This is the article about the passive hoover.

      HG is a psychopath and he is vey dangerous. I wouldn’t go near him with a 10-foot pole.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        You big fib, you know you want to hug His Royal Tudeness!

      2. K says:

        Ha ha ha….are you nuts! However, I am very grateful for you, so maybe a hug can be arranged for HIs Royal Tudeness in the context of me being a NITS in seduction.

        1. MB says:

          K, I don’t know if you can still be considered a tertiary source. It seems there’s been enough engagement to promote you to NISS. HG, what say you?

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Tertiary, irrespective of this K’s contribution as Official Archivist is recognised and appreciated. I am sure K is perfectly content to remain a tertiary source with respect to me.

          2. K says:

            I am satisfied with NITS.

            I am content with the occasional short blast of seduction (no golden period for the tertiary source) and, hopefully, no malice from a malign hoover.

          3. jenna says:

            MB and K,

            You guys are so cute – MB suggesting NISS haha! You know that HG requires fuel of great potency to be considered as secondary source right? Fuel is the rule. The rule is fuel. All for what? Fuel. A four letter word beginning with ‘F’ Fuel …

            Hg, certainly you can have degrees of tertiary sources, yes? Like your regular readers may provide a litte more potent low quality fuel than a passer by on the site?

          4. HG Tudor says:

            You are confusing quantity, fequency and quality. All tertiary sources have the same potency, but dependent on the form of interaction, the quantity of fuel and frequency will vary.

          5. jenna says:

            Oh my, time for me to brush up at Tudor University! Thanks HG.

          6. K says:

            I think you should join the HGT cheerleading squad and write a cheer for fuel. The uniforms are black and white (split thinking) and, when you join, it is forever.

          7. jenna says:

            I would love to be in the cheerleading squad! Love the black and white split thinking uniforms and especially love that it’s forever!😁

      3. jenna says:


        You just saved me from so much searching! Thank you K!

        HG, a hug? How is it that you could even write that word without feeling nauseous lol?!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I wore gloves when I typed it.

          1. jenna says:

            Gloves lol? Vinyl, nitrile, or the finest quality leather?

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Empath skin.

          3. jenna says:

            Ewww like in ‘silence of the lambs.’ Clarece is safe!

          4. Clarece says:

            Haha Jenna. Yes. I’m safe and have managed to somehow avoid the naughty step thru the holiday weekend!

          5. jenna says:

            * Gloves, lol!
            (should have been an exclamation mark)

        2. K says:

          You are welcome Jenna!
          And, I had a wonderful Thanksgiving, thank you.

  8. Mag says:

    Yes… you said Everything HG. Of course it s awful. But the more I know the more I can recongnize now narc people. Fantastic. As super empath your work teaches me how to recognize them. It has help me to heal. To grow and to become stronger. At the moment as you know all these manipulative things dont hurt you so much. It doesnt have many effect on me. Thank you. I was missing of that knowledge.

  9. J says:

    he cut me off…made his son (who adores me) return all my belongings. blocked my number…last week…after 24 years of his emotional abuse and neglect…after he terrified my injured cat by letting two large dogs enter the bedroom at his house where he was recovering from said injury…after my cat & I evacuated from the recent california fires…after i became so unhinged that i punched him in the neck 9 times. and yet i am so fucking stupid all i can do is cry for my loss of someone who never really loved me…someone who every time we fought & i left…would cry about how i was his only friend & his best friend & how he loved me…or did he. he gets to keep the dog. and i think that hurts the most. that and i don’t even think he is hurting. i hate you…all of you!

    1. J says:

      i should clarify something…he let the dogs in for attention because he was all alone downstairs…his son was with me (not my son…his from an ex.) after cleaning up the blood pouring from my face from my cat scratching me…he laughed and said “your cat is a freak…i did nothing wrong…i just wanted us all to be together.” he knew…he absolutely fucking knew what he was doing and yet refused to apologize for it…yet demanded i sign a written letter of apology for hitting him after in my own rage. sorry…i just need to say this out loud to no one and yet everyone.

      1. K says:

        Give me his name and address and I will have The Jackal take him out.

        1. J says:

          K…Much love! I typed it then deleted it…i just may type it one day if I can’t get my soul back.

          1. K says:

            Stay here and you will get your soul back. I got mine back on
            All Souls’s Day, 2017.

            And, I forged a new heart out of various alloys, wrapped it in barbed wire and spritzed it with Narc-Be-Gone. If a narc comes anywhere near my heart, I will beat him with it.

      2. Caroline R says:

        We hear you J. We recognise that tidal wave of frustration. Welcome to HG’s Mental Health Facility For the Trampled On.

        1. J says:

          Thank you Caroline R. It feels foreign to be heard. It’s awkward and yet comforting.

  10. Tammy says:

    HG, then would no contact give a type of consent?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      To what?

    2. Tammy says:

      To keep me on the shelf after I’ve forgotten about him. Then be hoovered again? After all it’s till death do us part.

  11. Fuel on the Shelf says:

    Would it wound a mid Ranger if we said someone else’s name in the throes of passion? In the same manner you depict in your article? 🤔

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Yes or it would be challenge fuel.

      1. Fuel on the Shelf says:

        How in the hell is that challenge fuel and not pure wounding?!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Because you said saying the name in the throes of passion – the throes of passion are emotion directed towards the narcissist. Saying a different name is the challenge.

      2. Fuel on the Shelf says:

        Rather….how is there any way that could be INTERPRETED as challenge fuel? It just doesn’t make sense that it’s not pure wounding.

      3. Lori says:

        Dont do it fuel on the shelf

      4. Fuel on the Shelf says:

        Why not?

      5. Lori says:


        You are dealing with a dangerous person. I know you don’t think mr polite piano man is capable of evil biolence but he is I promise you and you don’t know what may throw him into a narcissistic rage

        They all have poor impulse control

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Not all, many do, but not all.

  12. Veronique Jones says:

    Wow do you get slapped often ?
    That is a despicable thing to do to someone

  13. sunniva says:

    ….and Alex replied:

    «It’s Richard from the office I picture when I close my eyes»

  14. windstorm says:

    I have read this article when it has been posted over the years. After reading the other comments here, I went back and reread it wondering how I’d missed the “evil.”

    Maybe the reason it didn’t have that effect on me is that I lived many of my decades with someone acting that way to me. I think I’ve just accepted it as what narcissists do. There is no telling how many of my prized possessions have been shredded, broken, stomped on, chopped with an ax, given away or burned in front of me. By my mother, my father, my husband, or some other family member. The final straw was when my husband chopped up my prized, heirloom piano with an ax, right inside the house. Something broke inside me then that has never healed.

    That’s one reason why I live alone far away from family in a house full of loaded weapons. I am no longer able to put up with that particular narc form of dominance. A lifetime of living with that type of behavior has warped me to the point that if anyone of them did that to me again, I would just pull out a gun and shoot them. I might regret it afterwards, but at the time I’d be thinking, “By God, you’ll never hurt someone else like this!”

    I have told them all this as a warning. That something is broken inside me and if they push me this way I will snap and shoot them. They all assure me that I am crazy. I don’t disagree. But I do know that in the 14 years that I’ve lived up here, not one of them has come up here and tried to dominate me in this way.

    1. NarcAngel says:

      I kid you not, I was thinking about that piano incident the other day while reading one of your posts. It has stuck with me.

      1. windstorm says:

        God knows the piano incident has stuck with me! If we’d been at home alone I know I would have killed him. I just couldn’t shoot him in front of the children.

        I’ll never forget standing in the bedroom, gun in one hand and cartridges in the other, the sound of the piano “screaming” – every wire going off each time he hit it with the ax. And then the silhouette of one of the little boys in the doorway looking at me holding the gun.

        It’s like PTSD. I can go right back there in my mind and experience it all again in detail even though it was nearly 30 years ago! It took 10 years before I could think about it without my blood pressure going so high I could hear my blood pumping in my ears.

        On a more positive side, I still have the cast iron harp that was inside the piano with all the wires attached, up here at my cabin and can strum my fingers across them and remember how it sounded (being cast iron he couldn’t destroy it).

        I know you and K understand what I was trying to say. Goodness knows how much of your stuff you’ve watched destroyed over the years. I never thought if it as evil, though. It’s hard to think of so many family members as “evil.” It was just a show of dominance that people (narcs) did to feel better about themselves. All narcs do this abusive dominance. At least all the narcs that I know. They used to ridicule me for getting so shook up about it. How I wasn’t “normal.” Ha, ha! They were right about that. I wasn’t normal for a narc!

        Thank you for being my friend – crazy, broken, yet perpetually hopeful recluse that I am! ❤️

        1. NarcAngel says:

          I understand your memory and reaction completely. I can recall with clarity my parents having a couple over to play cards. StepNarc went to play a record (haha -thats how long ago) and the player wouldnt work. He went into a rage accusing us kids of breaking it (even though we were forbidden to touch it). He ordered us to go bring our (top 3 I think it was) most valued possessions to him to be destroyed so we would know how it felt. Told us he knew which ones were our favs and if we tried to deceive him by bringing anything else he would destroy ALL of our things. He was quite proud and thought he was demonstrating good parenting and his impressive control to the couple who sat horrified. I watched the woman motion for her husband to do something and she was on the verge of tears. The husband tried to calm him and distract him with jokes and a drink but he would not be deterred. The woman then stood up distressed and announced they had to go. It got worse after that but I’ll spare the details. Needless to say, that couple never came back. His demonic grin and and the sounds of the younger ones crying is what is etched.

          1. windstorm says:

            You had it much worse than me. Thank God I’ve never had to deal with lessers. Mama mainly burned my things when I was not there, then let me know later – either acting totally surprised that I minded or dismissing it as me being irrational. I about died when I came home one day and she had burned my entire stuffed animal collection. Sometimes she would throw things away or give them away to someone else, but always when I was not at home.

            My husband was different. He would rip up clothing, stomp on breakable things and destroy things as a punishment- always with me present and watching. A lot like how HG described. One time when he was having a tirade about how the kitchen was never clean enough, he insisted that every item – dish, pan, tool – that I didn’t use at least once a month had to be thrown away. I had to throw them out myself and if he thought I kept anything that wasn’t used every month, then he would come through and throw it all away.

            All of my special holiday pans and dishes had to go. All my different shaped cake pans and barbecue things, the ice cream maker – you can imagine.

            What really hurt the most was the big electric griddle his mother had given me that I used to make pancakes for all of us. He said I hadn’t used it that month, so I had to throw it away. That was a bitter loss for me when I was frying anything for all 5 of us. I cried over losing that griddle and mourned it for years.

            Whew! I don’t want to think about this anymore! I need to go outside and sit in the sunlight and listen to my wind chimes. I don’t care how cold it is. I’ll wrap up! I need to recharge my inner peace!! 🕉

          2. MB says:

            Unbelievable Windstorm! I know that was painful for you, but thank you for sharing it. It is helpful for our learning. Enjoy your quiet time.

          3. windstorm says:

            Thanks! Happy Thanksgiving!🦃

        2. WhoCares says:


          After having recently seen your sweet face I have a hard time envisioning you like this:

          “A lifetime of living with that type of behavior has warped me to the point that if anyone of them did that to me again, I would just pull out a gun and shoot them. I might regret it afterwards, but at the time I’d be thinking, “By God, you’ll never hurt someone else like this!”

          However, I *can* identify with how they can drive us so far to the point where such behaviour (from our perspective) seems fully justified. It also makes me sad that that is now a residual part of your past entanglements…because it seems unnatural…what it is that they manage to bring out in us…I feel it too, at times, that deep smoldering anger that wells up at thoughts of past abusive behaviours…I don’t give in to mine but sometimes I’m hard-pressed to find ways to constructively channel it.

          I’m sorry you had many cherished items destroyed in your presence.

      2. K says:

        I want to zap your StepNarc back to life à la Dr. Frankenstein Style just so I can torture him slowly to death.

        if you ever shoot and kill anyone, I will help with the clean up and body dump.

        1. Mercy says:

          NA, WS, K

          Thanks for sharing. I know you guys have been here forever but I haven’t heard your whole stories. Just pieces through comments. I just want to say that I would also volunteer my services if you need help with torture or body clean up. I’m great with bleach (I rarely splatter). Twilight was talking about throat punching. I’m sure she would offer her services as well if they’re needed.

          1. K says:

            Excellent, consider yourself part of the A-team.

          2. Mercy says:

            K, yes!! 😜

        2. NarcAngel says:

          Here is a meme I like that you may also enjoy.

          I’m the kind of friend that will help you hide a dead body, but if you betray me, just remember: I know how to hide a dead body.

          1. K says:

            Ha ha ha…noted!

          2. windstorm says:

            That’s a good one!

        3. windstorm says:

          Thanks K! So you’re my “shovel friend.” That’s what Pretzel calls the friend you can call in a panic at 2am and say, “I need you to get here as fast as you can. Don’t tell anyone! And bring a shovel!”

          1. K says:

            My pleasure WS.
            I will be your “shovel friend”. In the book, Fried Green Tomatoes at The Whistle Stop Cafe, one of the characters (Frank the wife beater) was killed, barbecued and fed to the detectives who were investigating the murder. I really enjoyed the story.

      3. Caroline R says:

        You are one of my favourite people. Being your friend is a pleasure.

        1. windstorm says:

          Thank you, Caroline R! You’re my good friend, too! We are all so fortunate that HG let’s us bond here on the blog!

          Thank you, HG!! I know you don’t celebrate it, but Happy Thanksgiving to you. May you continue to have more and more to be thankful for!

          1. HG Tudor says:

            I am obliged.

      4. Caroline R says:

        You poor little lambs. Reading what you wrote, I have a tight feeling of rising fear in my gut. StepN was a f**king bully.
        I hate it that you were trapped in that situation.

        I’m reminded of my N-Mum telling me her lesser N-dad spitefully smashed a little porcelain egg cup with a chocolate egg in it that he was going to give her for Easter. She grew up poor, so it was a big deal to have a new pretty thing. He did it right in front of her. Then he pissed off down the pub to get wasted.

        He accused us kids of drinking his brandy one time, utterly ridiculous. It was him of course. He was the alcoholic, and we were the little kids. We were punished but not so offensively as you little ones were. Hardly at all, by comparison.

      5. Caroline R says:

        WS and NA
        If I’d lived through and survived the crap that you have, people would drive past my house now and say (shaking their heads) ” that’s where Caroline lives. She can’t have anything sharp in the house since that time she finally snapped and stabbed some people repeatedly”…

        1. windstorm says:

          Caroline R
          That cracked me up!! 😝
          No telling what my neighbors say about me as they drive by! Sure it contains “that crazy old woman.”

      6. Caroline R says:

        I’m good at digging holes, so with regard to K’s comment, just let me know how many you need.

        1. K says:

          Caroline R
          Perfect, you can be part of the A-Team too.

          Word of advice: don’t ever betray NarcAngel she knows how to hide dead bodies.

        2. windstorm says:

          Caroline R

      7. Kelly says:

        My mother wasn’t so dramatic, she was quiet, like a stealth bomber aircraft. I loved Barbie’s and had a huge collection. When I grew older, they were boxed up in the basement. Every once in a while I’d go down and look at them, maybe redress a doll, and put it back. If my mother caught me doing it she would ridicule me in front of other people. Her big thing was always shaming me. She gave away my whole Barbie collection one day without even asking me, while I was at school, and then told me about it afterwards. And we had a piano too that I loved and I was the only one who played it. I wanted it to move with me one day, but she sold it after I moved out without ever saying anything to me.

        Despite everything she’s done, which includes stealing away my first born, almost killing me when I was a kid, sending me to live in another state at my grandparents to go to first grade early, I still love her. I see the good in her, I know the bad in her, now I understand her and why she was that way. She’s the one who is blind to it. I’m grateful I’m not a narcissist.

        I haven’t explored if my ex-husband, who has passed, was a narcissist, but he did destroy things that were mine. He threw a handmade quilt I loved in the washing machine and tore it, let the first piece of furniture I ever bought fall off the truck and bust, and when I was very pregnant I had to stand between him with a hunting knife in his hand and our two new puppies to keep him from killing them because he got jealous over them.

        Do narcissists really believe they were put on Earth to weed out the bad from the good for God? If so, they need look no further than their own mirrors.

      8. Kel says:

        HG, in my post above (that remains in moderation), I concede that you are a Michael archangel commanding the empath troups on the narc battlefield, weeding the bad from the good for God.

        1. Twilight says:


          What made you think of HG in such terms?

      9. Kel says:

        From the article, “The Emotional Battle Part Three”. I love that article and realized from it that HG has patiently guided each one of us through the discovery of narcissism to the recovery from it. He’s honestly the real safety raft that got us through rocky waters to dry land. Where would we be right now without him?

        He commented once that he believes he is here to weed the bad from the good for God. I have to give him credit, he’s done so much good for so many. He’s not a goody two shoes angel- he’s a salty battlefield angel, he’s a little dirty but he’s mighty and good.

        1. Twilight says:


          Thank you.

          I understand why you see him this way.

    2. MB says:

      WS, the piano incident 😥 Such cruelty. You’re not crazy for wanting to shoot the abuser. I cannot even imagine living with a person capable of that kind of act. And to think, I harbor resentment toward my husband for not cutting the cord after I had just pushed out a bowling ball sized baby. Your experiences put things in perspective. I feel very lucky not to have experienced abuse. I wish you had not. I’m glad you had enough and ended it. I don’t blame you for being armed. Go you!

      1. windstorm says:

        Thank you, MB. You are very sweet. It’s a shame that any of us has to suffer abuse. At least all of mine is long in the past!

        1. MB says:

          WS, I don’t know how you don’t have too much resentment toward him to even look at him. You have a forgiving heart and that is healthy for you.

          1. windstorm says:

            These things happened decades ago. I left him in 2004 to move up here. That’s a lot of time and we have both changed in many ways. I call my home my oasis of peace and tranquility. It is also my sanctuary. I have spent the last 14 years in personal growth and personal success.

            It’s like HG said. It’s all about control. I have come into my own power. Pretzel MnM doesn’t control me anymore. I control myself and my environment. But like the saying – the price of freedom is eternal vigilance – I have to constantly assert my boundaries. I have to lay down my law in my home and in my car, repeatedly and unequivocally. If I let him have an inch, he’d take a mile. That’s just his nature.

            It’s a lot like keeping a large snake as a pet. No matter how much you may enjoy it and come to care for it. It will always be a snake and you can’t ever let yourself forget that.

          2. MB says:

            Well said Windstorm, I’ve thought a lot about the piano incident since yesterday when reading your account and I have a question. What set him off? What caused him to destroy the piano with an ax? From what I’ve read, it would have to be fury to cause such an act. And for that fury to have lasted the amount of time and energy it would take to destroy and entire piano…that is some serious fury indeed.

          3. windstorm says:

            There was no fury involved in his destroying the piano. We had argued over the piano our entire relationship. I had inherited it before I met him and he’d always hated it – probably because I loved it so. That morning we’d had another big row about it. He was adamant that it had to get out of the house. I finally broke down and said, “Ok, you can move it out of the house.” I assumed he’d put it in one of our 3 barns.

            I was sitting on the sofa when he walked quietly thru carrying an ax and went into the game room. The sound of each hit was horrific and incredibly loud. I ran into the game room in shock and horror, screaming. He looked at me calmly and spoke slowly, like I was a complete moron and that chopping a piano up inside the house was totally normal, “You said that I could move it out of the house. How did you expect me to get it outside? It’s too heavy for me to lift.”

            Definitely no fury on his part. My best guess is it was meant as one of those psychological terrorizings that he occasionally enjoyed. Probably in punishment for all the years of defying him about the piano.

            Of course he could have had some guys come help him load it in a wagon and move it to a barn. I tried to get that out (I was in shock and could hardly talk) and his response was he wanted to get it out today and didn’t want to wait on getting others to help him. By then of course, it was too late. He began chopping on the key board, so the piano was ruined by the time I’d run in there.

            Our children were all early elementary school aged then and while I sat in shock, trembling on the sofa, I heard him say, “Come on everybody! Help me carry pieces of Mommy’s piano outside and we’ll have a bonfire!” They were excited and threw all the pieces right off the porch and set fire to it.

            I spent about three weeks trying to figure out why he did this. I came up with three possibilities: Did he not know how traumatic it would be for me? Did he know and just not care? Or did he know and do it purposely to hurt me? When I considered these three options, I realized that it didn’t make any difference. The bottom line was he could not possibly love me and care about my feelings and never would (we’d been together 16-18 years by that point).

          4. MB says:

            WS. I’m sorry you lived that. That was more cruel than the black eye ever could be. Incapable of love is a sad state. I almost feel sorry for him, but not quite.
            wish I had not caused you pain by bringing the experience to the fore. My apologies.

          5. windstorm says:

            Don’t ever apologize for asking a question. It’s important to share our experiences here. That’s what keeps us from feeling alone, misunderstood and abnormal. 😊

          6. NarcAngel says:

            That strikes me as calculating. Waiting on all of those arguments until you gave him “permission” (in his mind) by saying he could move it outside and then being able to blame you for it. He should be giving thanks today that you controlled yourself for your children (but of course that would never cross his mind). I’m sorry this discussion has summoned bad memories and I hope that you have been able to release them in your quiet and solitude there. You’re not just a Survivor but a Thriver and my kind of crazy. Dont ever change.

            Your friend

          7. windstorm says:

            Thanks NarcAngel. Your presence here on the blog always means a lot to me.
            Your crazy friend

          8. Clarece says:

            WS! I’m heartbroken reading about the piano story. No lie, that was some deep rooted contempt he held for your piano all those years and then using the kids to act like it was a game and partake in destroying all of it by fire. In the front yard as a spectacle on top of it.
            Yeah, a part of your soul did die that day. I get it.
            Now as adults, do any of your kids remember or reflect differently on how he handled that and how it really affected you?
            Happy Thanksgiving Friend. Big hugs to you!

          9. SMH says:

            Windstorm, After I left Lesser, I did the same thing. I got my own place and barricaded the doors. I was so happy coming home every night and not having to deal with him. I too was abused growing up – smacked around a lot by my father beginning when I was very young. That is probably at the root of everything. My mother was also abused – her mother threw all of her stuff into the backyard and burned it. She became a narc. I sometimes wonder what a ‘functional’ family looks like. It’s so hard to put all of the pieces together and see the bigger picture. One does what one needs to do as a matter of self-preservation.

          10. windstorm says:

            True. I often wonder how anyone grows up normal. Does “normal” even exist?

            You have a great Thanksgiving!

          11. SMH says:

            You too, Windstorm. Hope you enjoyed it alone or with others.

            I have no idea if normal exists. My exL’s family was way worse than mine – his father abandoned them when my ex was 12 and they were homeless for a few years. Dad reappeared in his 70s and made my ex take care of him until he died. There was no one exL hated more than his father. I suspect this was also the case for MRN but he never spoke to me about his parents – only about his siblings. He said his sister was a control freak (huh? I said – I thought YOU were the control freak) and his brother got caught in a 4 year affair (huh? I said, I thought you were the one having affairs). Pathologies everywhere.

            In any case, I managed to be around my parents for a few hours today. Easier when the rest of the family is there. When they leave, we all talk about my mother and what a narc she is. She is almost 90 and gets worse the older she gets. I just want her to stf up.

      2. Jenna says:

        You have suffered a great deal frm family narcs, yet you did not develop narcissism yourself. Of those children who have narc parents, some become narcs and some do not. I applaud the ones who do not.

        I am starting to believe in the theory of free will and how we are responsible for our own actions. Perhaps the brain gets wired towards narcissism depending on the choices one takes. For example, whn little HG saw his uncle’s power, he thought ‘cool’ if I remember correctly, and wanted that for himself. I imagine little windstorm had never thought of powerful behavior as ‘cool’ and rejected it every time.

        1. windstorm says:

          I think it was my natural empathy that kept me from becoming a narc. Being a contagion, I have always felt the emotions of everyone around me. This meant that it was painful for me to be hurtful to someone else, since I would feel their pain. I watched the adults in my life ignoring others feelings and deliberately hurting myself and others for their own amusement. I didn’t understand it, but I knew I never wanted to be like them. I decided that for whatever reason, God had made me different and I just had to make the best of it.

          1. jenna says:

            Hi windstorm,

            “… I never wanted to be like them. I decided that for whatever reason… ”

            This is the part that interests me. Some pple choose certain defence mechsnisms in childhood but at some point, when we become self aware, I do believe we make conscious decisions. I have read stories here of pple becoming narcs without any childhood abuse. This is a topic that interests me. I do take into account genetic predisposition, but I largely am starting to believe it is based more upon free will and am leaning towards ‘humanistic psychology’ that generally states that we are born good and have the tendency towards morality and self actualization.

          2. windstorm says:

            I agree with you. We can never totally escape our biology, and our past can hinder us and make change difficult. But as adults we can choose our own path. We choose whether to let our past limit us or to push on beyond it.

        2. Clarece says:

          Hi Jenna! Good to hear from you! Happy Thanksgiving.
          I believe too, with Little HG seeing Uncle Pete’s behavior as “cool” is because that was one person he’d see MatriNarc actually acquiesce around and right there is quite a feat that even his own Father could not do. So naturally emulating Uncle Pete would appear a good survival technique.

      3. jenna says:

        Hi Clarece!

        Thank you and happy thanksgiving to you too!
        Yes, you are correct. The dynamics between matrinarc and HG’s uncle would definitely play a part. It’s interesting isn’t it? I often find myself thinking about the origins of this disorder. Glad to read that you are 5 months NC! I always enjoy my interactions with you here. Thank you.

    3. K says:

      I understand. Something breaks (your heart, your soul) and the damage is irreparable and we would rather be all alone than ever put up with that controlling/dominating behaviour ever again. Embrace your anti-social self. I don’t blame you one bit.

      1. windstorm says:

        Thanks K. I know you understand. All abuse marks us and changes us, but long-term abuse, especially when we’re young, warps and scars us. We can “recover” and heal, but the scars and warping never leave us.

        1. K says:

          The scars and warped wiring can never be unwoven.

          1. Mercy says:

            Yes but scars give you character and character is beautiful.

          2. K says:

            Yes, those scars give us character and that is what makes us beautiful.

          3. shesaw says:

            K, I admire you to confirm that

          4. K says:

            Thank you shesaw!

      2. ava101 says:

        Don’t say it’s irreparable. 🙁

        1. K says:

          Caroline R hit the nail on the head, it’s the death blow in the relationship and once the trust is gone, it’s game over.

          It is like event horizon; there is just no going back.

      3. ava101 says:

        Though that is exactly how I feel.

      4. Caroline R says:

        I agree. I realised with my N-sister some years back that there comes a point where there can be a death blow delivered to the relationship. Especially when they don’t do anything to feed it, but are continually undermining it.
        The spite fast-tracks that point for me. My tolerance of it is very low. Low? I should say it’s non-existent.
        Once the trust is gone, it’s game over.
        I just can’t make myself care anymore.

        1. K says:

          Caroline R
          Yup, once the trust is gone then all you feel is apathy and nothing can ever reverse that feeling.

          My attitude is: It’s over, Bye Felicia. Then I walk away.

      5. ava101 says:

        The neurothings can be rewired.
        But at the moment, I do feel the same, yes.
        I meet guys … probably also only narcs, I don’t know … because I get panic attacks and blow up immediately.
        Trust …. haha. Nice word …

      6. ava101 says:

        I have one scar on my wrist, when on of my ex-narcs was so cruel at night, that I hurt myself with a knive, just not to feel it emotionally anymore, inside only. (I am neither in the habit of hurting myself, nor did I want to cut my wrist ….).
        That is my reminder now. But I found myself standing on the street with my last “lover” anyways, hurting myself by putting my fingernails deep into my skin for the same reason. But I also went completely!! dissociated, and numb. Like, removing myself from the situation, so I didn’t have to feel what was happening.
        The shellshocked silence maybe, HG loves so much …. …..
        … not sure, HG, if you realize HOW deep that ICE cold feeling runs and gets saved in every cell of the body, and the neuro-pathways forever.

      7. ava101 says:


        I will never speak to my sister again. Enough is enough, and no, there is not trust whatsoever.

        Haven’t spoken to my family since christmas. I just don’t want to hear it all anymore. I suppose 0 Tolerance is exactly what I am feeling.

        Unfortunately, I still have too much hope when getting to know new people.

    4. ava101 says:

      I remember, too, you telling us about that the first time. 🙁 Really soo, soo horrible. Totally normal reaction (yours), all of it. And I feel with you and understand your living up there.

      But a random thought also entered my mind … of all the things … my father / mother never did that (though I just now wondered about one or two things that vanished from my stuff ….. hmmm), my father also only hit me “just” once.
      It’s funny, how this all repeats, all our patterns, what we have experienced before, because what I did experience with my parents, also that ONE slap from my father, has repeated over and over again.
      But no ex-boyfriend of mine ever did anything like that. But the exact things my father did do … How strange.
      If anyone had ever done anything as what you have told us, I don’t know what I had done ….

      Anyways, I have lost a part of my empathy, someone behaved like a dominant narc and a tick towards me, when visiting, and I threw him out, in not so good conditions for him. And I just didn’t care. I wasn’t like that a while ago, but now I have watched myself several times to be able to – when someone is behaving in THAT dominant way, and not respecting what I say – I have no feelings/sympathy left for them. It’s gone. And I certainly don’t need any more drama in my life, especially not spun by them.

      the record player incident could have been my father, only, he would just behave like a small boy, banging doors, etc., shouting, yes, threatening, yes, but not destroying my things. How aweful … … But that is close to my original trauma, him shouting because someone had been (in his head) at his things, we were never allowed to touch anything, either.

      1. windstorm says:

        Thank you very much. I know what you mean about feeling that you have lost part of your empathy. I think it’s more like losing your tolerance for abuse. That’s how it is for me, at least.

        My children tell me that I have become too intolerant and that I overreact when someone inadvertently does something hurtful to me. I can see this, but it’s like I don’t have a choice anymore.

        It’s like how if you get stung by a whole lot of bees, some people can develop an allergy to bee stings. Then just one bee sting can cause a massive allergic reaction. Their system has become so sensitive to bee venom that it just can’t tolerate it any more.

        I’m that way with certain types of narc abuse. It’s like I’ve become allergic and have to get away from it. I literally can not choose to put up with it anymore.

      2. ava101 says:

        yes, exactly. I understand fully. I am the same way.
        People keep telling me, I am overreacting … well, I have had enough for the rest of my life, so why not react strongly … there is a reason, we are this way, and we don’t have to tolerate the slightest hint of abuse.

      3. shesaw says:

        Ava, WS, NA, Caroline, K, SMH, HG,
        Your childhood stories are beyond words. So incredibly inhumane. I will burn candles for you all tonight, as little sources of light and warmth.

        1. K says:

          Awww… after I read your comment, I felt all warm and fuzzy inside (that is what love feels like to me) and it is a wonderful feeling, thank you.

          1. MB says:

            K, love…and wine. Wine makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside too.

          2. K says:

            Good Time Brownies do the trick, too.

          3. MB says:

            K, I watched ‘The Dressmaker’ last night with Kate Winslet. She baked some brownies for the neighbor that had arthritis pain. I thought of you!

          4. Indy says:

            Brownies? Boy, I did jump back on the blog at the right time LOL

            HG, I promise, no baking recipes!

          5. NarcAngel says:

            Hey Indy!
            All the more reason to move to Canada now.

          6. Indy says:

            Hi NarcAngel!
            Like I needed a reason? Between the climate change and the devils lettuce, it will be like jammin in Jamaica in a couple years 😂 How’ve you been?

          7. K says:

            Ha ha ha…MB is referring to brownies that are made with The Devil’s Lettuce (weed) and have been dubbed: Good Time Brownies.

          8. Indy says:

            Hi K,
            Yesss, thus my excitement about brownie talk 😂How are you doing?

          9. K says:

            Hello Indy
            I am happy to see that you (and jenna) were hoovered back. I am doing well, thank you and how are you?

          10. MB says:

            K and Indy, maybe we can have them (brownies) at our Narcsite convention. You know…to break the ice.

          11. K says:

            It is a great idea, however, the “warm and fuzzy” effect of the brownie lulls me to sleep.

          12. MB says:

            K, I wouldn’t know. I thought the treat just made you relax and not be so jittery which would be helpful when in the presence of HG.

          13. K says:

            No worries! My curiosity would override the jitters.

          14. MB says:

            K, my curiosity intensifies the jitters for me!

          15. Indy says:

            This is for MB as I could not reply under her message. Oh, brownies do dull the anxiety though do not eat too much or you can be knocked out asleep. Of course, depending on the “type” of magic in the brownie. LOL

          16. shesaw says:

            Ow K, I am happy you felt that wonderful feeling. If I ever walk into your library, let’s celebrate it!

          17. K says:

            Damn straight! We will celebrate in the nonfiction-comedy section and have a few laughs.

          18. shesaw says:

            Lol K, what about the non-fiction non-comedy section and have a lot of laughs! I like contrast.

          19. K says:

            Contrast is great! I will meet you there.

        2. SMH says:

          Aww, thanks Shesaw. Maybe I am in denial but I actually don’t think of my experience as being so bad, though it did stop me from ever laying a finger on my own kid.

          I recently had a conversation with one of my sister’s friends who told me that when we were growing up she found refuge at our house, where my sister would cover up the bruises her father gave her with makeup. I had no idea. The last time this friend’s father hit her, she was almost 50.

          I was never in an abusive relationship before Lesser came along, so I don’t think I am primed for narcs. I know why Lesser and MRN happened in very close succession, but neither reason is related to my childhood. Again, maybe I am in denial but I don’t think so. I am pretty clearheaded now that the fog has lifted.

          1. shesaw says:

            SMH, sorry, didn’t want to talk you into a bad childhood! Happy to hear I took it too heavy. Still wishing you light and warmth😉

          2. SMH says:

            LOL, thanks again Shesaw. Same to you! It was bad in some ways but it was good in others.

        3. shesaw says:

          … sorry I could not mention everyone, but I did light one extra for all here!

      4. Caroline R says:

        I’ve been thinking a lot about the things you’ve shared, and want to thank you for doing that.
        The self harm disclosure made me feel for you. That’s a desperate act of a squashed person.

        The whole conversation here is soooooo complex, and there’s so much I’d like to discuss further with everyone here. Unfortunately this isn’t the optimal forum, because these aspects of our lives are those most fundamental to us, just as much as breathing and sleeping.
        The trying to navigate a way to survive, and live, and have meaning, and integrity, are behavioural responses and choices that are so deeply connected to the person we first recognise as ‘self’ (at about age 2, when we start saying “no”) and are a direct reflection of the culture familial (whatever form that takes, even orphanage) and what happens to us there that calibrates our internal indicator for ‘normal’.

        I don’t celebrate Thanksgiving being Australian, but I am very thankful to have the company of everyone here. You are all precious.
        I have some conflicted feelings with HG, as I’d avoid him in real life, but in this forum, his narcsite kingdom, I am very thankful for him, and he’s still my fellow child-of-a-N, so I understand and care. Not that he wants it. It is how it is.

      5. ava101 says:

        Thank you so much, shesaw and Caroline R!

        Caroline, that is a long time ago, and it now reminds me to keep boundaries (I am very very bad at that, still); and the internal scars.
        But e. g., I had one date last week with a guy, who might be a narc, I don’t know, but I do know that his behaviour towards me is not good for me. I instantly feel inbalanced, confused, going in circles … So, a reminder, not to go on with that, not to try further, is a good thing now.

        Of course, neither should never have been necessary in the first place, but yes, that is how I was formed in childhood.

        Yes, it is very complex, and yes, it is exactly one of my main problems, that I don’t know, how “normal” should look like.

        that is one of the sweetest things anyone has ever said to me, as a response. 🙂
        Thank you!

        It is a very good thing that I (we all) can come here to chat with others who understand, when in a confusing situation or when in pain. It keeps me away from the drama and from engaging with people who are not good for me.

        1. shesaw says:

          Ava, I do wish you a lot more sweetness. We need the care and love of others to heal.

    5. SMH says:

      Windstorm, That is horrifying and sad but it is perfectly understandable that you would self-isolate and protect yourself. I hope you have some sort of supportive community nearby.

      I once threatened Lesser (not MRN, the one I mostly write about here) with a very sharp pair of scissors for stonewalling. I had him cornered and had I had a gun, I probably would have shot him. I left him soon after that.

      HG, something I do not think you have written about – all of your empaths break down in tears or go silent or turn off the fuel spigot. If they get angry/upset, it’s a challenge that you enjoy. Have any of them ever gotten to the point where the narcissistic abuse has caused them to be physically violent with you? Have you thought about this possibility? Occasionally there is a story about a woman who kills her partner rather than the more usual other way around, and almost invariably she has been subject to years of abuse.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        A few have tried to slap or punch, they do not get far. None would be so stupid to try anything more than that but I recognise that certain victims will do so and end up killing their abuser. I recall a precedent setting case in the UK involving a lady called Sara Thornton (there was a television serialisation of the events called ‘Killing Me Softy’) She had an alcoholic and abusive husband who regularly beat her up. Thornton stabbed him to death as he slept drunk on the sofa one evening as a consequence of the sustained abuse she suffered. She admitted killing him but claimed it was an accident during an argument. She was convicted of murder and sentenced to life imprisonment.

        Her situation, that of a battered wife driven to take matters into her own hands, became something of a cause celebre for domestic violence campaigners. She appealed and did so on the basis of dissociation. This worked and her conviction was reduced to manslaughter and she was released on the basis of time served. It was a different case because she did not kill in the heat of an assault but afterwards and effectively in a pre-meditated manner, but the impact of her sustained exposure to physical violence was recognised as a ground for reduced responsibility in the commission of the killing.

        1. SMH says:

          HG, I did see that film, now that you mention it, though I was not in the UK for the real life version. I do remember a recent case in France of a woman who was released from prison after serving time for killing her abusive husband, and another in the UK I just read about.

          You know it takes a lot of obvious and direct abuse to push an empath towards violence. If a few of your partners have tried to slap or punch you, you must have really gone out of your way to torture them. I sit at a distance thinking that your keen intelligence means you would find clever ways to abuse indirectly. But I am wrong.

          Can you elaborate on the details? What caused those partners to lash out? Were you physically violent with them? And how would you classify an empath who resorts to physical violence? Any sort of empath or a particular sort?

          1. HG Tudor says:

            No, I was not physically violent with them, that is beneath me.

            One reacted to being humiliated, another out of frustration when she sought to argue with me and found herself intellectually outmatched and then rather lazily resorted to the fist to try and make her point – she failed but gave me a useful piece of ammunition, the other was as a consequence of her misplaced belief that I was being flirtatious in front of her. The one who was humiliated was pushed hard and therefore the response was expected. The other two were not pushed as hard and frankly, let themselves down. Any empath could resort to physical violence in certain situations – I will be posting an article in due course concerning the Empath at the Cliff Edge which explores this in greater detail but also distinguishes between this behaviour and that of a Super Empath too – it is an instructive article.

          2. Twilight says:


            Interesting, I have notice that the time I have been pushed to anything Physical was with my husband, and this was after years of being with him, with the UMR and Greater never happened it was a battle of wills and an exchange of words or silence. Do you think this could be due to the school I belong to? I was never physical before him and have not been sense.

          3. HG Tudor says:

            More than likely.

          4. windstorm says:

            I’m looking forward to the article about the empath on the cliff edge. I think we all can find ourselves there, and some mistake that this makes them a super-empath. To quote one of my mother’s insulting sayings, “Even the worm will turn.”

          5. SMH says:

            HG, Thanks for explaining. Again I am happy to know that physical violence is not a part of your repetoire.

            I am curious to read that article and understand the differences in empaths’ reactions, but I think those must also depend on the type of narc because the narc behavior is different even if the goals are the same. I therefore reacted very differently to Lesser and to MRN.

            In any case, I have been unsure about whether or not I am an SE. Maybe the article will shed some light on it.

      2. windstorm says:

        Thank you. I guess my supportive community would be the teachers I work with at my school. Other than that I stay pretty isolated. But I am an incredibly introverted person. Being around any people – even my children and grandchildren- is very stressful for me, so isolation is a comforting thing.

        I could be wrong, but I imagine HG would respond to an empath’s physical violence much like my husband – pay it back tenfold. My Pretzel MnM is not at all a violent man, but he always reciprocates way worse than he received. He can go ape-shit crazy scary and can put the fear in anyone who crosses him.

        He has the ability common to many narcs to project a total lack of fear of any consequences that is very intimidating. The one time I slapped him, he cold-cocked me to the floor and I had a black eye for about a week. I never tried that again.

        1. MB says:

          WS, all this makes me so mad!!! I just want to smash that pretzel to bits for hurting you!

        2. SMH says:

          Windstorm, I think of resorting to violence as a weakness. Empaths do it in desperation when we get pushed pretty far but when narcs do it, I think of that narc as a Lesser because of his lack of control. I am therefore beginning to think of HG as weak – not as the puppet master or wizard behind the curtain that I thought he was. I don’t think of him as responding to an empath’s violence but rather as provoking it, perhaps by being violent himself. I am not sure.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            You thinking is incorrect. I have never used physical violence against a woman. I have restrained them in a couple of instances – i.e. keeping their hands/arms still or holding them against me until they calm down, but I do not use physical violence – it is beneath me.

          2. K says:

            Well, that’s some nice fuel if you caused the upset.

          3. Clarece says:

            “Keeping their hands/arms still or holding them against me until they calm down, but I do not use physical violence “.
            I have come back to this response of yours about 10 times today. I’m not quite sure yet why it has my mind churning.
            I have always appreciated that you’ve expressly stated you are not violent. With women and children.
            To drive a person, especially a non-violent one, to such an emotional flurry to explode in such a primal way to lash out physically, bringing them to that point, and then to hold them, close to you, contained, until they calm down is such a stark contrast.
            Many abusers would not do that. They may continue the altercation letting it get more physical. Others, at that point, may use that as their escape hatch to then up and leave the scene blaming the victim has gone absolutely delusional and now dangerous.
            You say you are always controlling the situation. And you are. But I also see this response, strangely, as you creating what your memory knows and is familiar with, from your childhood. The only way you can stand any “closeness” is if the chaos is surrounding it. I know you think Little HG is dead inside you, but I don’t believe that when I read this.
            Anyways, on this Thanksgiving, thank you for being a mentor and guide and helping me recover from some very large wounds over the last few years. JN did text last Thanksgiving later in the evening. So far, sz o good today, and I’ve been NC for 5 months, and most of this year.
            Thank you also to so many readers who have encouraged and been supportive towards me. It’s helped so much feeling validated and heard.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome.

          5. MB says:

            Clarece, “Keeping their hands/arms still or holding them against me”. This comment has been churning in my mind too. Probably not for the same reasons it has yours though.

          6. SMH says:

            Me too, MB, now that you and Clarece have both highlighted it. To me, holding someone down/back like that could be understood as violent – it is responding with physical force to someone who is weaker, and overwhelming them.

            I am willing to be argued out of that position but if someone did that to me instead of, say, protecting themselves by blocking me or moving out of range, I’d say they were being aggressive if not directly violent.

            It’s like that doctored videotape of that CNN reporter. If you look at the tape properly he simply drops his hand to keep the intern from taking the mic but the WH tried to spin it as if he had grabbed the intern herself. Obviously people perceive a difference in those two things, which is what I am referencing above.

          7. MB says:

            SMH, it sounded more like a bear hug than violence. Kind of like putting a thunder shirt on your dog to calm her. I have to say that I’m pleasantly surprised. I thought surely HG would have been physically violent when he was younger even if he is not now.

          8. HG Tudor says:

            Not with women.

          9. MB says:

            Right…the stinging nettles!

          10. Clarece says:

            I like that analogy, MB, of the thunder shirt for a dog providing a forced stillness to induce calming down.
            What’s hard to gauge though is if after getting the negative fuel HG provoked to get, is he really trying to calm her down for her best interests too or just him? He got the rush of power thru the exchange. Is this how his subconscious can sanction closeness? Or, she’s clearly being devalued to cause such an emotional row to begin with. Maybe it is a form if violence to be so contained if you haven’t worked out all the feelings?
            Have the doctors ever explored talking with you, HG, when your fights with significant others got this heated?

          11. HG Tudor says:

            We have discussed all manner of situations when the fury has risen.

          12. SMH says:

            Still feels aggressive to me, MB.

          13. MB says:

            His reaction was in response to an aggressor. I can only imagine how he was treating them at the time to make them want to strike him, but physical violence is physical violence no matter who the perpetrator is. Women don’t get a free pass.

          14. WhoCares says:


            I haven’t read all of this thread but your comment got me thinking back to when I first escaped from my narc and I reached out for help from social services… (which initially I didn’t feel like I qualified for because there was no ‘physical violence’ in the abuse). In talking with intake workers and others, I became acutely aware of how one-sided certain services are. I recall one person’s comment as she was taking notes: “Let’s see what kind of *man* we are dealing with here…”

            …and another’s: “Please be aware that if we call your cellphone and hear a male voice that (for your safety) we will not leave a message.”

            Aside from the subjective reality that I was dealing with a male abuser – my objective reaction to the system and such comments was deeply disturbing…I could not help thinking to myself; why is it always assumed that abusers are male? What if the situation were reversed – would they say to a guy “If we call your cellphone and hear a *female* voice (for your own safety) we will not leave a message…”? It made me ultra aware that there are no (or very few) services for for men in abuse situations…it also made me very sad.

            It bothers me more if I begin to think about what my father must have endured in relationship with my mother…I never understood my father’s admittance to the ‘teenager me’ (when things were escalating between him and my mother): “I have never hit a woman in my life but your mother makes me sooo…” (He never finished his words, but I could feel the anguish in his voice.) I somehow realized that he was at the end of his rope and while I didn’t want my parents to separate I knew they needed a ‘break’ apart; so I helped plan for my dad to find a place to stay…

            I guess part of what I’m trying communicate is that while I don’t condone physical violence….some them really do drive you to it – or nearly to it…especially mid-rangers…I saw it in my narc…and in my mother. And I’m sure there are plenty of situations where after years of putting up with emotional and psychological abuse-after-abuse, the victim finally lashes out physically and comes out looking like perpetrator. I also really feel for men in narcissistic abuse situations who, more than their female counterparts, believe they have no where to turn to or that no one would understand.

            I realize I may be slightly off topic but I just needed to express that in reaction to your comment, MB.

          15. SMH says:

            Not giving her a free pass but he had other options such as walking away. There is a strength imbalance and she did not have a weapon.

          16. windstorm says:

            I commented earlier, but think it was lost. If it comes thru as a duplicate, I apologize.

            I think of restraining hugs as aggressive also. It is possible for non-narcs to do them in a caring and supportive way, but narcs do not. I have been restrained this way in multiple scenarios by multiple narcs and it was always humiliating and offensive (usually when I wanted to intervene to stop narc bullying). I could feel the desire to control and demean me mixed with conceit and contempt. It is a way to dominate another and is fundamentally insulting.

            Yes, violence should be stopped, but like you said, there is a big strength difference. Backing up, talking, leaving are much better options when someone weaker than you is out of control. To forcibly hold someone’s arms to their sides and render them powerless is an act of domination and I believe an act of psychological abuse.

          17. SMH says:

            Well put, Windstorm. I agree with everything you wrote. It also strikes me that it is infantilizing to restrain anyone but a child under certain circumstances (for instance, a toddler having a terrible twos moment). I once told MRN that he treated both me and IPPS as if we were children. He never laid a finger on me in an aggressive way but his behavior reflected that mentality.

          18. K says:

            I couldn’t agree with you more.

          19. MB says:

            K, WS, WC, SMH, you ladies know way more than I do about abuse and I am so sorry for what you’ve had to endure. I guess I was just thinking that if I had to choose between getting punched, kicked, choked or being put in a bear hug, I’ll take the bear hug all day long!

          20. NarcAngel says:

            Another forceful and abusive way of restraint that they can use is excessive tickling. Under the guise of them playing around, you can be restrained quite tightly while you thrash and beg for it to stop. Held and supposedly tickled until you can actually become physically sick. Then when released, if there are any onlookers and you are visibly upset, it is put down to you being too sensitive and them not realizing you weren’t having fun when the intent was not fun to begin with. If you are sick you are treated with disgust and blamed for not being any fun.

          21. windstorm says:

            I had an uncle that did that. He’d hold me down and tickle me. Pretzel tried it, too, but I got loud and violent, even in public eventually (after 17 yrs old or so).

            I also can not stand when they hold you down and make you hit yourself with your own fist. Same thing, “you can’t take a joke” or “you’re too sensitive” if you fight back. Eventually I got so angry and vindictive he quit. I’d throw a fit and keep on throwing it for days if I had to and refuse to let him touch me. And I didn’t give a damn what anyone else thought!

            OMG! One of my trigger statements is, “Well it shouldn’t have hurt,”.like I’m simehow defective fir feeling pain! It is almost overpowering to pull out a gun when that is said to me, anymore!

            My oldest son was bad about juggling important breakables of mine in front of me. Then when he dropped one he’d say, “well, I didn’t mean to break it.” Thank God he finally grew out of that stage. I give my DIL credit for fixing that.

          22. MB says:

            Yes NA! I didn’t think about that. Tickling IS torture! I saw on one of my real crime evil lives here shows that the abuser knew she couldn’t stand to have her feet tickled. He called the kids in there and he made them tickle her feet while he stood and laughed like it was a joke. That is abusing her AND the children!

          23. NarcAngel says:

            I should have stated this was when I was very young and on more than one occasion. He seldom played with us in any fashion (and when he did it was always as a monster) so it should have registered to anyone watching as strange. I knew then it was not for fun but creepy and struggled to explain it. I can now see that he was displaying his dominance and control, getting his reactions/fuel, and then blaming me for the reason that he didn’t interact much (to my mother or anyone watching) when (in his mind) I overreacted. It was never just a brief episode or in passing-always to the point of almost making me/us physically sick. I am furious when I see people do this and interject because I see it as a veiled act of aggression, albeit it is very seldom.

          24. MB says:

            NA, I’m not ticklish which is weird since I’m a HSP. Another form of dominance would have to be used on me. I know what you mean by the aggressive tickling. I had that done to me as a child a few times (when I was more ticklish). There is a sense of being helpless and at the mercy of the tickler and not able to breathe. It is cruelty disguised as “fun”. Just like those that startle me and then say I can’t take a joke when I get mad.

          25. SMH says:

            MB, I too would prefer a bear hug to being smacked!!

            I know more about abuse now, but all of my learning has been in the past few years. The thing about abuse is that often you do not realize when it is happening, especially if it is psychological. That’s one reason people stay in abusive relationships for such a long time. And of course it used to be fine and accepted to smack children, who do not know they are being abused.

          26. MB says:

            It all boils down to fear and intimidation. There are so many ways to control.

          27. K says:

            Although, she didn’t get punched, slapped, choked, etc., it is still abuse. When a situation is orchestrated to cause an individual to lose control and then s(he) is restrained with a “hug”, that is gas lighting.

            It is a setup; she looks like the abuser/crazy one and the other person appears to be the victim when it is really the other way around.

          28. MB says:

            True SMH. True.

          29. SMH says:

            Good to know, HG.

          30. tigerchelle78 says:

            I feel so many different things. First I feel like its horrible, evil, and so I have that view of this situation as I’ve explained further up the comments.

            Then when Mr Tudor talks of holding or restraining someone… husband has had to do that with me several times until I calm down. Usually to stop me from hurting myself.
            So this evokes in me a feeling of love, and even protection. I think I like being restrained as I’ve had other boyfriends in past do that too….haha!

            Anyway the fact that Mr Tudor says he is not physically violent to women, children and animals, doesn’t seem very psychopathic to me. I don’t know why, but for me, a psychopath would even enjoy hurting others. But it seems he seems to enjoy hurting mentally, emotionally and psychologically rather than physically.

          31. windstorm says:

            I’m not disagreeing with you, but I believe most of the world thinks of committing acts of violence on others as a sign of strength. When a greater narcissist reacts in violence it’s not the same as a lesser. It is calculated, tied to psychological manipulation and usually veiled by gaslighting. It’s not usually the result of a lack of control, although it is possible to surprise them into violence.

            I do agree that while they may be responding to an empath’s violence, that violence only happened because they had provoked it – most likely over and over until she reached her breaking point. But I think they view that as challenging their control and feel obligated to stomp down any insurrection, no matter how justified.

      3. ava101 says:

        Nothing makes me more mad than being held on the spot, because I am raging …

      4. flutterbymorpho says:

        Thank you for asking this.

        1. SMH says:

          You are welcome, FBM. I am curious – it is another phase in my understanding – but it also makes for good discussion. If we can learn how to disengage, we can learn how to not resort to violence ourselves.

      5. ava101 says:

        Very well explained, about the restraint, K! Thank you. Exactly.
        Same with shouting.

        And so mid range.

        1. K says:

          My pleasure ava101
          When someone wants to rage, I say let them. Lord knows, we have had to deal with narc rage.

      6. ava101 says:

        About what is so bad about being held on the spot:

        my ex-ex-ex-boyfriend is a master passive aggressive mid range narc, and kind of intelligent, like a true cerebral narc. He is the one whose ring I had thrown onto the street, and he is most like my mother of all my ex-boyfriends (like her narc behaviour).

        He was pretty cold emotionally, not into cuddling, etc.
        He said some really horrible things to me, all in a smooth, calm, innocent voice, and always blaming me, like:
        – I had been so demanding in bed that he had gotten nightmares
        – We wouldn’t have to have fights, it was all my own doing, and mine only, if I would only not make a problem out of things, and just not start complaining all the time.
        – Leaving me alone to go to a history lecture, when I was ill, telling me, I had wanted to make him do things
        – Posing as super helpful, unless I REALLY needed help, and when he did something, it was taking really, really long or was totally the wrong thing, etc.
        – Telling me, he had thought what it was about me, and in comparison to his ex, etc., and he just didn’t want to spend time with me.
        – I hadn’t wanted children anyways with HIM, when we had never once talked about it, but I had told him about my past
        – Putting me down all the time, never acknowledging anything, such as, treating me like an uneducated help, while I had the exact same university degree he had, but he acted as if neither my university education nor my work experience etc. even existed.

        –> —>
        So, in this calm, passive aggressive way he had, with no emotion, being distanced, cold, etc. one day again, like, not giving me ANYTHING, …. completely! negatiing! any thoughts, emotions, needs, … I had …. I lost it after his provocations and I went to his desk drawer, and got out the letters I had written to him (good old times ….), and tore them all up. His reaction: NONE. I was crying, and everything, because the past hours, he hadn’t shown any sign of emotion, interest, etc. But he made me hurt so much, that I felt that all my love I had put into these letters shouldn’t be there, anymore.
        So, he first watched with no reaction at all, and then he just held my wrists in his hands.
        And THAT was the worst.
        Because he nihilated my reactions, my emotions, anything I had to say, my upset, and he took my freedom to move, along with my freedom to speak …. It wasn’t a NORMAL reaction from his part, as much as the hours before that: he had no reaction whatsoever on an emotional level, let alone empathy. He should have shown some emotion, reaction, and he should have (all that time) cared about what had upset me in the first place. My needs, my words, my feelings, my wants, …. nothing existed. And then I couldn’t even move around anymore. It’s not like I had attacked him or his belongings.

        Together with:

        He then got a friend to come console me, when he had let me flee into the bathroom, where I was once again sitting with scissors, wishing I could hurt myself (not doing anything then), just sitting there shivering.

        He told the friend that
        – I had flipped out
        – I had shouted at him while he had been calm, etc.
        – I had overreacted, gone crazy, and so on
        – he didn’t know what to do with me, acting crazy there in the bathroom.
        – It was all my blame and he had only tried to keep me save and do the right thing by holding me on the spot. …

        1. K says:

          You were invalidated and erasing/rewriting what happened is often much worse than the actual abuse itself. You were denied a voice and then he painted you as the crazy one, while making himself look like the poor, beleaguered victim.

          Gaslighting at its finest. I am so sorry you went through that. It was heartbreaking to read.

      7. lori says:

        This happened witb narc 1 who wax a mid ranger he was generally not violent and more of a Csssanovs type but there were occasions where arguments got out of hand and turned physical. He never “hit” me but The was pushing shoving and hair pulling but one time I remember it was bad and he just stopped put his head in his hands then he came toward me and I was so scare that I ran from him. He ran after to me and said I’m not going to hurt you we can’t do this anymore

        They are all capable of frightening physical rage

    6. WiserNow says:


      I’m sorry you experienced all that and had your possessions destroyed and taken away. I can understand why you live alone and armed. You’re not crazy. You are very sane in my opinion. Your comments here are consistently some of the most sane, grounded and level-headed and it’s reassuring and enlightening to read them.

      I sometimes think our “empathy muscle” just gets tired from over-use and from not being given the respect and understanding it deserves. When you say that something inside you broke, I think that the hope that keeps returning to fight another day just changes into a realisation that fighting will not help and will only make us expend more energy and will hurt us in the long run. So it’s a kind of giving up in preference for self-preservation and survival.

      I don’t think you’re broken Windstorm, I think you discovered your own inner streak of healthy narcissism. I mean that in the most encouraging, respectful and well-meaning way.

      1. windstorm says:

        Thank you so much, WiserNow. Your words mean a lot to me! I took a screen shot of your comment so I’d always have it in my phone.

        I think you’re probably right about my feeling that something broke inside me. It probably was hope – hope that things could get better, hope that he actually loved me. I remember at the time realizing that he could not possibly actually love me and never would. From that point on our relationship changed. I stayed with him for another 10 years or so, but my love and trust were gone. It was all about survival, and making the best of what options I felt I had.

        “it’s a kind of giving up in preference for self-preservation and survival.”

        That is exactly what it was.

        1. saskia says:

          WS, I agree so much with what WiserNow and other commenters have already written.

          I’m generally not the most emotional person when it comes to expressing sentiments, and I don’t mean this as an expression of mere pity, but it was heartbreaking to read about the piano incident, you keeping the cast iron plate and explaining that something broke inside you.

          I completely get what you’ve written about your feelings, and I understand your reaction. I feel that what you and your children had to witness was an extreme violation of your boundaries and trust, a brutish invasion of your personal space and, apparently, of so much that was near and dear to you. I thought that the act of using an axe to destroy a person’s belongings is like the ultimate attempt of annihilation – it’s brutal and threatening.

          There is only so much you – or anyone else in a similar situation – can take before you reach your breaking point. You don’t sound ‘crazy’ at all but very strong, grounded and empathic – you even emphasise that, after all that happened, you never thought of those people as evil. Chapeau for your attitude.

          I get the impression that most empathic people despise feelings that are regarded as overly wrong or bad from the empathic perspective but then again – it can be healthy and, WN mentioned that word above, sane to allow oneself to have and to feel those feelings. They are a part of a wide range of emotions that are part of human nature. How on earth should you not feel the urge to fight back and defend what is yours and yes, survive, ‘at all costs’ after what happened?

          1. windstorm says:

            Thank you very much for your comment and understanding. We’ve all suffered much abuse, but we can all come thru it and find a way to have a happy, fulfilling life.

            I see my keeping that piano harp, repainted and decorated, in a prominent place in my home as a symbol of my inner strength. It’s a constant reminder that when horrible things happen, I will not cringe and hide and pretend they didn’t happen. I will adapt and move forward and stay true to myself.

            And it also feeds my vanity that I am unique – I’m the only person I know who has an antique piano harp displayed in her home! 😄

          2. saskia says:

            I really like what you did and now associate with that piano harp he couldn’t destroy WS – that’s unique for sure.

        2. WiserNow says:

          You’re very welcome Windstorm 🙂 Thanks for taking a screenshot of my comment. That is lovely of you and I’m very glad if my words helped you in some way.

          I don’t know how anyone would take any kind of satisfaction from destroying a beautiful object, even if it had no value or importance to anyone else. So, I can’t even imagine how anyone could do it to a beautiful piano when they fully know it’s importance to someone they live with and supposedly love. I enjoy music too, so knowing it was a musical instrument just adds to the disbelief. It’s beyond comprehension. I feel sadness for the piano even though it’s a material object, and I feel great sympathy for you that your husband did that and you had to live through it and also hide the pain and hurt for the sake of your children. You deserved much, much better.

          Hate is a strong word, but I can understand how that brutal and sadistic action could make you absolutely hate your former husband, and I think you would be justified in doing so. The fact that you don’t hate him and have shown restraint and forgiveness is fully to your credit. You are one very strong lady and you are all class.

          There’s a mysterious and beautiful poetic symmetry in the way the inner cast iron harp of the piano survived and couldn’t be destroyed. The inner heart of the piano where the music originated is like your heart or your inner cast-iron kernel of empathic strength that lives on. It can’t be destroyed and it’s still there for you to make music with and to enjoy 🙂

  15. Getting There says:

    HG, does this work on all types of empaths? What would have happened if, instead of giving you the reaction she did, Alex laughed at you or told you off? I understand it would be fuel but it wouldn’t be the shell shock silence. Would you give up on trying to get to this with her or would you try to figure out another method to get this from her?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Challenge Fuel – it would be necessary to assert superiority through an alternative response.

      1. Getting There says:

        Thank you, HG!
        Would all schools and cadres of empaths react with shell shock silence? While I am not a Super Empath, what I thought I understood of them is that they would not take that kind of situation lying down.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Not necessarily and a super empath may also (but is less likely than other schools) to react with shell shocked silence.

          1. Twilight says:

            I would have punched you in the throat. Then had a discussion with said friend or family member.

            I am guilty of having a temper when caught off guard and the right button is pushed.

        2. Mercy says:

          Getting There, Poor Alex took it lying down

      2. MB says:

        Poor Alex!

      3. Getting There says:

        Thank you, HG!

      4. K says:

        ha ha ha….a throat punch…I love you. I get really mad, too, and I punched my MMRN once.

        1. Twilight says:


          I have to be aware or I will absorb what anger is around me, things become interesting then. I am beginning to understand why some have “enjoyed” provoking me.

          1. K says:

            Me too! I am trying to be aware so I don’t get provoked and it is VERY difficult. I prefer being anti-social right now. It is just easier.

      5. Getting There says:

        Mercy, I feel bad for her!
        I would like to think the rest of the story went like: Alex had her moment of shell shock silence. While HG is basking in his “I am all powerful,” she said “eff this” and pushed HG away from her. She maintains the silence he provoked as she grabs her stuff; continues to say nothing; as HG is trying to wrap a towel around himself (or puts on something), she opens the door and walks out; and then she implements full no contact HG-style.
        I doubt that is how it went.
        I just hope she received healing for her emotional and mental wounds; and hopefully she has found someone who truly loves and respects her and shows her every day.

        1. Mercy says:

          Getting There, haha i like your ending. If it was me I think I would have been angry enough to take advantage of his vulnerable position and grab a handful of his sensitive parts to inflict a little pain.

          My Narc knows my anger is unpredictable so I don’t think this is something he’d do to me.

        2. Mercy says:

          Getting There, I also hope Alex is doing well. I have to think of the women in HGs examples as characters in order to read some of them. I try not to personalize them because it distracts me from the meaning of the article. Sorry if my humor came off as insensitive.

      6. Me says:

        Hi HG, what is Challenge Fuel? Would you please clarify?

        Met a person who turn out to be a narc. It was a sex based ‘bond’, no feelings were present from my side at no point nor the other side, it was purely sexual attraction. Discard and following hoovering came in due time.
        I let this individial know I don’t want to continue with our encounters as these only happens when this person wishes hence not further interested, encouraged this person to meet others and I used block tactics.
        From your point of view, do you think my emotionless message will stop this narc from contacting me again?
        This narc has other supplies of course .
        Actually. I wouldn’t mind continuing this sex based bond, condition would when I want it. Narc is indomitable, so chances are…. (you opinion here)
        Thank you for reading.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          It is the provision of an emotional response occasioned by the act or omission of the narcissist, but challenges the perceived superiority of the narcissist. For example, asking angrily where the narcissist has been when he wanders in at 2am smelling of perfume and booze. The anger is fuel, the question seeks to challenge the sense of entitlement of the narcissist to do what he wants and also challenges his lack of accountability, by trying to make him accountable. This is not acceptable and therefore whilst there is no wounding (because fuel is provided) the challenge is seen as a rebellious act and must be quashed and superiority asserted once more.

      7. Getting There says:

        Hello, Mercy!
        I’m sorry I didn’t realize you were joking; I can be slow on reading jokes sometimes. I don’t think it insensitive. I’m sorry that I gave you that impression.
        I like to try to walk away and think but when I let my anger be known, I get very loud and verbal. My body language matches my mood. I am sure it is a fuel feast.
        LOL I like your addition to the end, as well as Twilight’s. I did think that HG left himself very vulnerable for a potential Emergency Room visit; I have heard of certain parts breaking.

    2. Jess says:

      Thank you. I wanted to ask this.

  16. Original Overthinker says:

    I am shell shocked from an event in the Summer.

    The ultimate finale in Summer has pretty much destroyed me with no signs of me healing.

    He won and he knew it, not from him gaininng consent, (it is over, nothing can be salvaged, unless his own consent is he can do whatever he wants with no regard).

    It was from my desimation and he loved every fuel filled second. As I crumbled physically and mentally. Those dead eyes were sadiscally alive, it was as if he watched my emotional my life ebb away he then sucked it up and spat it out like he did with me.

    Silenced, shell shocked, no fuel, too weak to provide any.

    I hope one day to be the Phoenix who rises from the Ashes.

    I need to heal, repair and learn to live and love life again.

    1. Lori says:

      You will come back from this. You’ll never be as you were before but you will recover. It takes a good long time of no contact either by your choice or theirs but you do get better.

      He didn’t win. He’s a Narcissust something no one would choose to be. He was so terribly damaged that he had to invent a false self to deal with fhs pain so that he wouldn’t feel that pain ever again. Many of them are quite aware that they are lacking in empathy and emotion. After the first 20 failed relationships they start figuring out fbsg arent like everyone else. Both of mine now older www aware that something is not right with them emotionally. Now with age, they have become aware. They know. Are they happy sometimes. When one told me he could just disconnect from someone and be over it in days I ask him to teach me that and he says he would never want me to be like that. He said “trust me you don’t want to be like this but it works for me “

      That’s not winning

      1. Original Overthinker says:

        Thank you… Want so much my peace and happiness again … x x

    2. Caroline R says:

      Original Overthinker
      You’re safe here with us.
      I’ve seen a similar sadistic triumphant smugness as you described so well on the face of three different people, and each time I was rendered speechless and crushed, and unable to process any of it. I was physically overpowered in each case, so it’s either fight, flight or freeze. Freezing is a legitimate survival tactic.

      Having somewhere to go with the feelings now is important, as is being with others who understand. Healing is happening, but you’ll never be the same person that you were before. That’s ok.
      You fit in here with us.

  17. flutterbymorpho says:

    Pure evil ! One would have to be some kind of evil twisted c*@t to look into another’s (human or animal)tearful, bewildered, fearful, sad eyes like that and not be moved..let alone cause that and get off on it. Let alone cause it & reduce a living soul to to be broken, on purpose!.. that is absolutely disgustingly sick! Warped, deranged and all for for what.. a temporary fix of fuel.. cruelty beyond belief!. 🙁 well it’s not any measure of power or superiority to do that to the kindest, gentle , meek targets at all! To pick on and control those that you perceive weaker. .what kind of challenge is that? What kind of trophy badge is that? It’s an unfair ‘hunt’.. nothing to be proud of. Go pick on another psychopath and at least have a fair match… empty f*#¥I g cowards!

  18. Louise Speechley says:

    Destroyed to the point where you are unable to defend yourself, is NOT consent.

    1. Empath says:

      It is criminal.

  19. Empath says:

    That is just sick H.G.

    If reading that does not empower people on this blog to get the hell out of their narcissistic relationships then what will? Am I wrong to think many people reading your content have no intention of getting out of their situations, but only trying to understand their situations? To commiserate with other people in narcissistic relationships?

    This one post provides all you need to know. It defies all that is the beauty of our human experience.

    Your darkness is astounding H.G. and difficult to stomach, but I am empowered by reading it. And slightly frightened and infuriated. Horrified. I feel such sorrow for your victims-just as I do for all the past and future victims of my own narc. What you describe I can feel. How on earth that specific reaction from a victim brings you such pleasure, even with all of the information I now know regarding your kind, is still unfathomable. I pray for these innocent people who have been hurt by your kind. I don’t think of myself as religious, yet tend to be spiritual and feel a connection to those victimized, especially children and animals, just like a good empath should, right?

    I think the work you are doing here has a purpose but it will likely not ever be mainstream as I do not think the general public could handle it. I definitely could not read a word of this had I not experienced a sociopathic relationship first hand and sought to understand it better. As part of your ongoing therapy it is fascinating from a psychological perspective. I also want to understand the darkness to sustain and enhance my own inner light.-that light that your kind threaten.

    I do believe the masses need to be aware of your kind-but if you seek becoming a successful author perhaps you should soften anything you consider submitting to any well-respected publications. Then if people want to explore the true darkness your kind represents, this raw content could be offered with alternative availability.

    You should also participate in research on sociopathy since you are self aware (if you are not just fooling all of us). Being an intriguing subject of research by Psychiatric or Neurologic practioners/researchers could perhaps provide you with some decent fuel. I am not surprised if that is part of your ongoing therapy already. The “good doctors” you see are not trying to dominate you or manipulate you in any way, they are trying to understand your rational and therefore assist you in adjusting the behaviors you are seeking to adjust-or being “forced” to adjust or maybe just tone down. You seem to embrace it one minute and then be paranoid the next minute, like they are trying to pull one over on you or threaten your existence somehow. Their agenda is to help you. How I would love to be a fly on the wall! I hope they read of all the articles you write about these visits as well. I couldn’t imagine they would be fully aware of all of this you describe in this post is going on in your head while in therapy. Or maybe they do,

    I believe your kind provide the contrast the rest of us need to cherish all the goodness, love, and kindness we give and receive in our lives. It has taken me quite some time to reason out a purpose for your existence. Maybe you could market yourself with that angle-“I am a reason you should appreciate human connection” and then go into the educational aspect of your work. An article like this one would be unacceptable to readers who may have some interest in your kind as it is so highly offensive. I could see how a therapist or mental health researcher would find it intriguing-but not an average person.

    My legacy will be the opposite of yours.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I appreciate your opinion and yes, it is necessary to ensure people understand the brutal truth so they do indeed take the necessary steps to protect themselves. There is no scope for being complacent and this is why I do provide articles such as these periodically – I strike a balance with reminding people of the brutal truth alongside the other elements of insight and practical assistance. There is no revelry in explaining this – it is the delivery of cold, hard fact designed to assist you in building cold, hard logic. As you mentioned, offering an alternative, there is, my work is not riddled with the ‘dark side’ of the behaviours (I accept that it would be gratuitous and cloud the message – something the doctors discussed with me) but once cannot ignore their existence either.

      1. MB says:

        Warning: rose-colored comment ahead.

        In all fairness to HG, (and this would not apply to other Narcs) This is an older post. I would like to believe that he has made progress toward being more pro social since then. As ever, he will correct my inaccuracy if necessary. I do realize that whether or not HG has made progress has no bearing on GOSO and our learning. (It just makes me feel better.)

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Valid observation. Do keep in mind that some articles also refer to events a long time ago as well.

          1. MB says:

            Thank you for the reassurance HG. I know it doesn’t bother you to be perceived as pure evil, but it does bother me.

      2. NarcAngel says:

        I am glad that you include articles such as this. Though it may be difficult, a dose of hard reality is often needed in that people can often, and over time, become charmed with your humour and intelligence. Lulled into a complacency or familiarity that can dull or soften the memory of the heinous acts and behaviour that is companion to them. It runs paralell to, and can be a wake-up call to how we can become ensnared in our personal lives by unconsciously narrowing our focus to positivity and the investment of others as we tend to do. Though they may be difficult for some, they are valuable to having a complete understanding on the subject of narcissism. I applaud you for proving a varied and complete curriculum that not only educates and engages, but takes into consideration your confidence in the intelligence of your readers to accept all aspects, which are key to their success.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you NA and indeed this is required. No reader will ever fall foul of my dark side, there is no need for that to occur, but it is all part of the education that is provided here to be reminded of what people are dealing with so that they maintain their defences and continue to learn to the very best of their ability, from he of the very best ability.

          1. MB says:

            “from he of the very best ability.” Yes, this.

          2. Twilight says:


            I have witnessed and felt the “evil” your kind can do to another, those memories are not pleasant. Not one of them was ever able to “touch” people in the way you do, I am speaking of your work here. I do hope you find a reason one day for yourself to change, yet thankful you are who you are, or many would still be struggling in the muck of confusion, despair, desperation and depression.

            Yesterday was 9 years I have been free from my husband, today I have many things to be thankful for…..your at the Top of that list HG.

            To those who celebrate Thanksgiving…..Happy Thanksgiving!

          3. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome and congratulations on your continued freedom.

          4. Twilight says:

            Thank you HG.

          5. K says:

            Happy Thanksgiving to you and all yanks who celebrate it!

          6. Twilight says:


            Thank you! Happy Thanksgiving to you!

      3. Empath says:

        I agree H.G., I did overlook that perspective, not all of your articles are nearly as dark or offensive as is this. This one was absolutely horrifying though-and not the only one, same with the You Tubes.

        As an empath, I can visualize this scene exactly in my head as you describe it, I can see the expression of this person as you stun them with your grand finale in the implosion of the golden period (that you intentionally created and now subsequently destroyed). That level of raw expression from the beast inside you makes it difficult to appreciate your excellent writing. It makes me want to go see a priest. It makes me feel nauseated. It makes me feel like I need to take a very long, steaming hot shower to wash away the grotesque feeling it gave me. Gag.

        But, one cannot deny, it does indeed provide the reader with COLD HARD LOGIC to get the hell away from you people. I am on the logic train, believe me-and I was oh so madly in love with the illusion.

        It kind of reminds me of the behavior studies of sadistic serial killers by the FBI. These criminals often kill and humiliate women due to the domination, shame, and absence of love they endured by their abusive mothers in childhood. They target women because it was a woman that caused them so much pain. What your article describes H.G. is almost exactly like that except it is on an emotional level instead of a physical level. Fascinating. And quite disturbing as I know it was your narcissistic mother that likely triggered and modeled this behavior for you (as you have written about her role regarding your own narcissistic, sociopathic outcome).

        That in of itself, makes me feel pity for you. But the rest of us who are loving and kind, did not do this to you. So we should not be the targets of this kind of abuse; it is illogical to express your trauma as an adult by raging such harm upon others. Innocent others. It may be impossible for a person who experienced a traumatic childhood to not have some glaring emotional issues as an adult, but therapy and healthy coping mechanisms are worth pursuing versus lashing out at the very people who could love you and want to love you with no hidden agenda to harm you or betray you. Most of us authentically want to give love and receive love in return-and it seems this is beyond your conceptual understanding because it was buried by the betrayal of your mother’s love. The absence of your mother’s love. And the genetic component had to contribute to this as well.

        My sociopath had none of these conditions in his life. He grew up in a middle class family with 3 other siblings who are all normal. He had a dominant mother but she was not abusive-for some unknown reason he became sociopathic.

        When my golden period was in place I would tell my sociopath I would love him even without all of the attention. In fact, it made me very uncomfortable because it was definitely one-sided. I have two children and could never even begin to return the attention or support he offered to me, I was quite embarrassed by it and would ask him to please stop. People do not need a “golden period” to love someone. They need honesty, respect and responsibility from a partner, some common interests, some common viewpoints. The emotional sabotage your kind puts upon the rest of us unsuspecting victims is undeserved, just as it was undeserved towards you in your childhood. I am not the mother-of-the-year type myself. I was seventh out of eight kids with what some would consider a very cold mother at times who told us often we were all mistakes. But the way it affected me was for me to remind my own kids that I planned both of them and that I love both of them beyond measure. My love for my kids is what kept me from all of the harm the sociopath could have done to me-many boundaries could not be crossed even though I was pressured because I protected my children, our living situation and my assets were not affected and never would have been. I know I was lucky in that sense because I was blinded by love, no doubt. I am definitely not the ideal mother, but my kids damn sure know that they are loved unconditionally, and they are fed, clothed, housed and supported to the best of my abilities.

        But I digress. I do agree H.G. that not all of your content is this severe but I felt motivated to say something because it sickened me so. Your wit and writing skills at times has made me forget what I am “dealing with” as you say. LOL, we readers have a “golden period” of clever, intriguing, educational posts and then we have a “discard” of the entertainment aspect as you go completely dark, raw, and uninhibited.

        Are you absolutely SURE you do not get any fuel from writing this blog???

        1. HG Tudor says:

          As I stated, your observations and opinion are valid. I have explained I gain a small amount of fuel from the blog, I have always stated that, but it is not significant and it is not the reason I do it.

      4. Trocadero says:

        HG, I am still puzzled while trying to apply this to a Mid-Ranger context. you’re a Greater thus doing this kind of horrible things being pretty much aware of the ‘why’ and the end result you want to accomplish in acting so. No matter how obnoxious it may seem to say that I understand the dynamics by the sole fact that you know what you are doing, and why, and what are the consequences for the opposite part in that interaction, I still cannot grasp how a Mid-ranger could do it and at the same time keep believing he is a good person,that he is doing nothing wrong? I’m not even close to understand this School. For the Lesser and Greater it’s much more easy to grasp..or maybe this kind of pure evil cannot be done by a Mid-Ranger? Cannot believe that one would act like this ‘instinct’,I really cannot!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          It is a detailed explanation Trocadero but revolves around the necessity of the self-defence mechanism, as a defence and an absolute one, not allowing the narcissist to see anything other than his or her perspective. It is about shifting from thinking your perspective is the only one or the only right one, to recognising that the narcissist has a different perspective and has to have that otherwise the self-defence mechanism will not work. If you want me to explain this in greater detail to aid your understanding, do organise a consultation.

          1. MB says:

            HG, but your narcissism does not blind you to the perspective of others. How is it that you are provided with a self-defense mechanism? How do you protect yourself? Do you find that the more you learn, the less need you have?

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Mine is a blend of instinct and calculation because we Greaters have the skill set to achieve the self-defence mechanism that is required, hence that allows awareness and noting a different perspective. My self-defence mechanism relies on (amongst other matters) a lack of emotional empathy, a lack of remorse, a lack of guilt.

          3. MB says:

            Thank you for answering that HG. You are fascinating.

      5. Mercy says:

        HG, I agree some of you articles are dark and hard to read. When I first found this site it was like I was a child and you were the boogie man hidden in the closet. I was disturbed by what I read but I couldn’t stop because I identified with what was said. In my search for answers so many sites failed me. They are predictable and frustrating. Most other sites come from the prospective of a victim and although they mean well, I already know what it’s like to be a victim. I lived it. I needed more and your well rounded articles taught me to see my position from a new prospective, not as a victim. 

        It’s an ugly truth that we as empaths have to face but we live in a world where narcissist walk amongst us and pray on those that are unaware. Just as a mother may not want to know about the abuse a child down the road has suffered by the hands of a predator, she must face the reality that the predator exist so she can arm and protect her own child.

        I often refer to your writings as tough love (yes I know you don’t love). Whatever your motive is, it has no bearing on the fact that what you have written has kicked my ass out if victim status. You’ve guided me to turn the light on in the closet and see that the boogie man is just a shadow. It’s still frightening when the light is off but im capable of working through that fear with logical thinking.

        So the short of it, please don’t stop with the dark stuff. I, WE, need to always remember.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you Mercy and I recognise your constructive approach to my work.

        2. MB says:

          Mercy, he did state to the Canadians, “I love you all.” Ha ha.

          1. Mercy says:

            MB, now I’m just jealous!!

      6. mommypino says:

        I like that these articles were posted after the romantic pick-up lines articles that we may encounter someday. It gives a really good contrast and a clear reminder of the horror that might be awaiting after those sweet wonderful words and amazing dates.

      7. kel says:

        Just peaked in here for a second. Happy Thanksgiving to everyone in the US & since Santa ushered it in, in the Macy’s Thanksgiving Parade, Merry Christmas now too!

        1. Twilight says:


          Hope your Thanksgiving was fabulous!

    2. Jenna says:

      Hi empath,

      I understand your sentiments because I was equally appalled by the behavior described in this article. However, I do think HG’s work will go mainstream! In fact, I believe it already has.

      People are just clueless as to what narcisssism is and end up on the wrong sites- such as relationship forums offering advice for pple with ’emotionally unavailable’ partners. Those are the youtube videos I used to watch. When I followed the advice given there, there were no results. In fact, it was met with fury lol! So I continued my search and finally landed here, my final destination, and received all the answers I required. It took over a year to reach this site though – different search words, persistence in changing my search words for an answer to be out there. If the pple on those relationship forums knew abt narcissism, they would come running to the blog. The relationship advice given by the so called experts are exactly the same as the ‘errors of the ignorant’ series HG has here.

      HG, perhaps a poll on how we landed here, what key words we used in our search, and how long did it take to land here? HG did not have youtube videos when I came here. That’s why it took me awhile to find this site. Thank god I found him.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Good idea, I shall make it so.

        1. MB says:

          Make it so #1!

      2. jenna says:

        Wow! Thank you for the consideration!

      3. jenna says:

        I would like to add that I did not just look to the internet for answers. I also had therapists. I switched to a very well reputed therapist half way through my entanglement, since I was not progressing with my then current therapist. The new therapist charged $165/hr and she did not take insurance, but it was fine with me because I needed help. Well, needless to say I did not receive the help I was looking for. Only when I landed here did I start to receive help and progress. HG literally saved my life (I was suicidal due to the mmrn).

      4. K says:

        Sam Vaknin led me to HG, go figure.

      5. Empath says:

        Thank you Jenna….yes, it took me almost a year too. I was looking for the term sociopath not narcissist-my ex did not fit the self-centered description of a Narcissist when I first started trying to figure out some of his bizarre behavior. When I was looking around I came upon the term sociopath, and the check list (Robert Hare). I still couldn’t apply the terminology because my ex was super generous, had a good job and waited on me hand and foot, but some of the boxes could be checked. My discard was beginning… I just started seeing him less often…it had not ended. As soon as I discovered his false identity though, I also learned he cheated, he was married, and had a crappy job and a history of not keeping a job…THEN it was apparent! He checked ALL the boxes!!!

        The survey topic was interesting you suggested too. I DID find some excellent material regarding Sociopathy before H.G., but as far as delivering the cold hard logic, H.G. delivers, hands down. Sandra L. Brown’s work is very good, as is Martha Stout’s (I personally needed science to accept the madness I was dealing with, not just upset victim writers). Although a few of those helped me too, such as Chump Lady and Donna Anderson. But H.G., as much as his work creeps me out, sickens me, and infuriates me…if a victim is teetering on the edge of denial or God-forbid, considering reconciliation, H.G. provides the blunt force trauma of narc-speak to destroy all of thier delusional misconceptions!

        I angrily admit I would have felt empowered sooner had I found his work earlier. I got out anyway, but was afloat in the “emotional sea” longer than I had to be. My very experienced therapist has never heard a situation as bizarre as mine so I told her to read some of H.G.’s stuff so she would grasp the level of disorder that I had dealt with. My ex was an upper mid ranger IMO.

        I am grateful for H.G., I have said it many times, but I do rage inside for Narc victims, for all of us that are intentionally harmed by these types. No human being should be considered expendable, much less be considered “an appliance”. As much as I needed to hear it, it does make me want to kick his ass.

        (Sorry H.G. It is a love hate kind of thing.)

        The hardest lesson I had to learn to accept was that people like this walk amongst us; can blend into society. Many innocent people naively believe this level of pathology can only be found in prisons.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Quite alright.

      6. jenna says:

        Hi empath,

        Thank you for sharing that. You are correct that many people would believe this pathology is found only in prisons, yet they walk amongst us. Go away narcs! It’s scary but at least we have the tools to avoid them now. I am sorry your ex was such a fake (married). It must have been horrible when you found out. The mmrn I knew (I do not want to say ‘ex’ or ‘that i had a relationship with’ because one cannot really call it a relationship come to think of it) hid many things and when I found out (not through him), I literally collapsed. But that’s all in the past. I won’t dwell on it. I still enjoy coming here, chatting with my friends, and bugging HG!

      7. jenna says:


        Through Sam what’s his name lol?!!

        1. K says:

          I know, right! Sam who??? He just happened to pop up first.

          1. jenna says:

            ‘Sam who’ lol I’m laughing so much!

      8. Bibi says:

        Great idea! How we found HG.

        HG, I was sifting about for a while before finding you. I first found Dr. Sam but your Mid Ranger description nailed it to a tee!

        So much backwards information from well intentioned people, however clueless.

        I also find it fascinating to watch how your writing has not only evolved but thrived over these years.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you.

    3. SMH says:


      Not sure I am replying to you in the right place but I do mean to respond to this: ‘Am I wrong to think many people reading your content have no intention of getting out of their situations, but only trying to understand their situations? To commiserate with other people in narcissistic relationships?’

      I found HG’s blog during my escape from a narcissistic relationship. I have used it as I believe it is intended – both to help me to understand what I was dealing with and to keep me from breaking NC. Both have worked for me, at least so far, and I believe they have worked for many others on here too.

      People come here in different stages of abuse and recovery, and having been in different sorts of relationships, but HG cannot make any of us DO anything. He can only provide the tools and information we need to learn. It is like going to the gym. You can pay for your membership – you can even pay for a trainer – but if you don’t do the work you won’t get fit.

      I don’t think HG needs to soften anything to go mainstream. We here on this blog ARE average people. There is nothing super human about any of us except that we have landed in the right spot. We might be shocked by some things, amused by others, but we recognize it all as part of the learning experience.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Well put.

        1. SMH says:


      2. Empath says:

        Hi SMH,

        Thanks for your reply. I was reading some of the comments and came to the realization that some people on here are willingly staying in their narcisst/victim relationships…and was stunned. Even though H.G. is spewing forth all of these stone-cold truths about what they are dealing with! I want to encourage them to have some dignity and not allow ANYONE to treat them this way! They are worth more than that and if they only do the work required to bolster their self esteem they would bail immediately! The purpose of our lives is not to be someone’s appliance-each of us have a greater calling beyond simply remaining a victim of the disordered. I am just so sad to realize as I read along that some of these beautiful people accept their situation; even with the knowledge that is gained through reading H.G.’s work. Writing that is glaringly clear that GOSO is the only solution. I didn’t mean it to shame anyone-but to encourage them. I felt exasperated knowing anyone would tolerate this behavior.

        I believed initially the only people that would show up here are the discarded and the ones who escaped…not the ones that are trying to manage their narcs. I didn’t mean to offend however, everyone has different reactions and circumstances of course in their response to a narcissistic relationship. I just want to encourage self preservation and self worth. Perhaps some people can maintain these relationships fully knowing their “status” and keep their emotions out of it and I am simply naive.

        I feel frustrated that anyone provides fuel to sustain these kind, because they are being conned and wasting their precious, limited time on this planet.

        Maybe the mainstream is ready for this body of work, but I can’t imagine it. Unless you have experienced it first hand, the average Joe cannot conceptualize it. People do need to be aware but I am not sure they would buy that this level of pathology exists within someone whom appears perfectly normal. Others believe they would never be taken in because they would pick up on it before they were drawn in. Of course, both of these viewpoints are incorrect.

        H.G., are you submitting any of your writing to online publications? Huffington Post or Elephant Journal are two that come to mind.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I have not done so. I take the view that it is more effective for my readers to make the recommendation.

        2. SMH says:


          I don’t disagree with you but surely you can see that it is a very tough addiction to break. I tried four times before I escaped. Yes there are a few people here who are unable to do it, but most of the ones I am familiar with from my 7 months here are out. No one wants to be an appliance and I don’t see any passive unthinking people on here.

          As far as mainstream readers, look at all the violence and mayhem people watch on TV and in the cinema! In any case, I think those drawn to writings about narcissists and other personality disordered individuals have had some experience with them. I know I wouldn’t be here reading had that not been the case for me. Self-selected audience no matter the outlet. Plus HG has over 12 million hits. There is a lot of interest.

  20. MB says:

    This was difficult to read. I don’t like the evil HG. I like the intelligent and witty HG. I am an ostrich with my head in the sand. I commit one of the empathic sins. That of rejecting negativity. Everyday I put on my rose colored glasses and go about my life. If forced to see something negative, I am deeply affected and force it out of my consciousness as quickly as I can. Stuff it down as deep as possible. Please make it go away.

    1. Bibi says:

      I understand your points MB but as Mercy expressed above, these ‘dark’ articles are essential to plowing through the emotional thinking and understanding what we’re dealing with, not just in terms of HG but his kind.

      Only wanting to see the positive and ignoring the negatives only invites more opportunities for these types to prey on. I know that for me, I am not shy when expressing my doubts about someone–and I have even been called ‘cynical’ plenty of times, but I don’t care.

      The dark articles can be hard to take, but I know for me they are a comfort, in an odd way. They keep me from longing for what I know is not good for me.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Well put.

      2. MB says:

        Bibi, well said! I agree that the dark articles are necessary for our learning. But, as ever, I’m a sinner by rejecting negativity. It all bubbles to the surface eventually because it cannot be unseen. I stuff it as long as I can but I know it ends up hurting me in the end.

    2. tigerchelle78 says:

      MB this is who he they are, as in evil I believe. Not to say they are not intelligent and witty as well. But this is closer to the real him in my opinion. If your gut tells you it feels awful, there is a reason for that. We have a conscience unlike them.

  21. Kel says:

    You do see the parallels between you and Satan, right?

    HG, will you write a Christmas narc tale? The Grinch?

    I purchased your Narc Tales from Halloween, but haven’t read it yet, unbelievably! I’ll make a point to read it tonight.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you for purchasing it, you will enjoy it.

  22. tigerchelle78 says:

    I feel a bit shell shocked after reading that….

    I wonder if a narc would get same power if their victim just switched off, went numb, and dissociated….

    1. Empath says:

      I think the contrast in the feelings from the victim would still provide them some fuel, but not as much as a devastated pile of emotional rubble. IMO

      1. tigerchelle78 says:

        The only thing I disagree with is that silence means consent, as I can imagine rapists and murderers convincing themselves of the same thing as they perhaps hold a gun or knife to them with intent to use it if they make a sound. The mere threat and terror, would silence a person.

        Silence can mean so many things. A person in shock, will often not speak. You can be so frightened and fearful of a person or situation that you can’t speak.
        There is one thing for sure though, and that is only the weak would get power from such a thing.

        But I agree that although hard to read, it is necessary for darker articles like this, for everyone to see what this kind is like. It is better they find out here by reading, and feeling uncomfortable, sickened, and even shocked, than by being fooled and entering into such a relationship and in some cases even risk their life being with such an individual.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Well Sir Thomas More tried to use it as an argument and it didn’t do him much good.

          1. tigerchelle78 says:

            Sir Thomas More was not beheaded for his silence, in fact he was quite loquacious before his head was taken off, and that was because he disagreed with Henry VIII, for whom decapitation seemed to be the answer to everything.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            You have misunderstood. Sir Thomas More argued that his silence with regard to the King’s issue amounted to consent – his argument failed.

        2. windstorm says:

          That’s a typical narc statement that silence gives consent. Whenever I hear someone say that it sets alarms off in my mind.

      2. ava101 says:

        In those times it was a wide spread survival strategy not to say anything in public, let alone publish written words, from Spinoza to anyone else, they had to fear for their heads, if they didn’t comply.

        Yeah, but it’s good to remember to speak up for ourselves. How often did I hear “But you didn’t say anything”.
        And we had talked before about that kind for manipulation, to get us to shut up, along the lines of “it is your fault that we argue and the evening is ruined, why do you have to make a drama out of everything.”
        And oh, did I have some horrible fights with a continuous switch within minutes or even seconds from “why don’t you shut up”, “why do you have to argue”, and “why don’t you answer me”, “say something”, …

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