Never Again

I have lost count of the times that I have been told “never again”. I have heard it said by other people who have met my kind even more often. I am entirely relaxed when I hear this phrase because I know that although your intentions are to never go through that dance again with me or one of my kind, it will happen. We may be gone for some time but we will return and when we do we will resurrect all those wonderful memories as we seek to Hoover you back into our reality. The emotional attachment that we create is so great that even though you looked in the mirror every morning and mouthed “Never again” to yourself you will struggle to resist. You cannot help but wonder if this time it will be different. You do not want to say no for fear of someone else receiving our amazing and scintillating love. You want it. You learned the lessons and as the introspective empath that you are (as well as suitably conditioned by us) you will blame certain things on yourself. You will convince yourself, because you want to taste that mesmerising kiss once again, that we have changed and that this time it will be different. Why should someone else get to experience that wonderful love? That is not fair. You put up with the rough and the smooth. You have earned your stripes so it is only right that you get to have us again isn’t it? That is what you want. When we first departed and you saw (for we wanted you to see) that we had found someone new it ripped you apart. Notwithstanding the full horror of your dance with us you hated the fact that someone else now basked in our glorious light. You wanted to warn them not because you cared about that person but because you wanted us back. You wanted us to yourselves. You felt a sense of unfairness that she was now with us. You would lie awake wondering if I was saying the same things to her as I had said to you. You wondered how she would respond to that blazing, heavenly love that you once relished. Would I be the same for her as I was to you? You kept telling yourself that it was only a matter of time before she befell the same fate that you endured, yet the postings and pictures told a different story. You began to worry. Had I changed? Had I become a better person after you? Was she somehow able to please me in a way that you could not? You had to know. You had sworn never again but now you wanted me back. You wanted her to go away and free me to be yours again so that you could apply your learned lessons and everything would be wonderful again. She did not deserve me did she? But you did. You made such sacrifices. You opened your heart to me despite the daggers I drove into it. You served your time and you are entitled to your reward. Not this Jane-come-lately. You want to give us that chance to prove we can do it. You want to show you brought benign influence to bear. You want to prove that the beast can be brought to heel in the most compassionate manner. You might say never again but you do not truly mean it. Not in your heart of hearts.

By contrast when we say “Never again” we most definitely mean it. Never again will your life be the same after meeting us. Never again will you feel able to trust anybody after being subjected to our acid reign. Never again will you be able to smell certain scents, hear certain songs and see certain places without breaking down in tears. Never again will you love someone in the way that you loved us. Never again will you want somebody as much and in such an intense way as you wanted us. Never again will you be able to feel calm and relaxed since for too long you have been subjected to a heightened state of anxiety. Never again will you experience that euphoria you once had with us. So when you declare never again it is never truly meant, but what you fail to realise is just how many things will never again be the same for you.

148 thoughts on “Never Again

  1. littlebit says:

    Whocares – My narc is a guitarist and the first thing I noticed about him were his hands. I never thought seeing hairy fingers would turn me on, but as I watched him play and felt how in the zone he was I was transfixed. He is very talented. I do miss seeing him play.

    1. WhoCares says:


      Oh, yes…I can imagine the added attraction factor of a narc who can seductively strum a guitar…and I’m not even musically inclined…

  2. Morning sun says:

    – Never again will your life be the same after meeting us.
    Thank god for that, I was a real idiot. :))

    – Never again will you feel able to trust anybody after being subjected to our acid reign.
    True to an extent. I’m certainly never again going to trust blindly in someone, but this is really just common sense that I didn’t have before. As for never trusting at all? To be honest, I don’t have that much trust in humanity to begin with… so apart from the few people who have proven themselves to me over the years/decades, I expect anything from anyone. But that doesn’t mean I live in fear of it – it just doesn’t particularly shock me, is all.

    – Never again will you be able to smell certain scents, hear certain songs and see certain places without breaking down in tears.
    You really have too much trust in our delicate sensiblities, you know. But it’s a lovely picture, a love martyr quietly suffering for their ideals.

    – Never again will you love someone in the way that you loved us.
    I should hope not! Just thinking about loving someone that way again gives grosses me out.

    – Never again will you want somebody as much and in such an intense way as you wanted us.
    See above.

    – Never again will you be able to feel calm and relaxed since for too long you have been subjected to a heightened state of anxiety.
    Nah, I’m a resilient little bugger. But it’s nice to be idealised this way, as a forlorn tragic lover…. maybe if I get myself a garland and go sit by lake and act all gloomy, I could pull it off? Nah, too lazy.

    – Never again will you experience that euphoria you once had with us.
    I should hope not. Honestly, plunging into that kind of mental/emotional insanity is just unsavoury.

    1. Chablita says:

      Well said, Morning sun!

      1. Tappi Tikarrass says:

        I agree chablita
        Morning sun does have a way with words!
        Feisty, sassy

      2. Morning sun says:

        Thank you, Chablita and Tappi.

        I just enjoy the brilliant mind-bending challenges that HG poses with his articles, they bring out my playful side. Responding to them helps me work things out in my mind, too, and if it holds some value for others (whether in content or as entertainment), I’m glad.

  3. lisa says:

    The last sentence , things will never be the same is so true. I even view the world differently now that I know about these types of personality disorders, I see characters in movies differently and just people in general and I view my life and myself differently. It’s actually all for the better because I now know what I have to work on within myself. I just wish i’d known all of this years ago but then again HG’s blog wasn’t around years ago and I would imagine information on this type of thing was just not there either. Once you know, there really are no excuses if we continue with these situations.

  4. Kel says:

    My WordPress is sucking this weekend, I’m not able to LIKE anything.

  5. Mona says:

    And if he would know, how happy I am without him, he would be furious. That would destroy his illusion. It is one of the reasons why they use violence against the ex. The envy that someone is able to be happy without them. How can that happen?

  6. Mona says:

    He was not the first man and he will not be the last man in my life. He was the only narc. I will not fall in love again blindly. Yes, your kind destroyed a lot of natural trust in me. It is a shame.
    Yes, he will say the same words to her. Yes, he will visit the same places. Yes, he will do all the same with her what he did with me.
    And no, he will not discard her . He is too old now, will need her money and he is fat now. So, tell me, what should I miss?
    I am glad that I escaped and do not have to pay the bill for the rest of my life.
    I thought that today, when I looked in my garden. I was happy.

    1. Tappi Tikarrass says:

      Good to hear Mona
      When I was in my garden today, I had similar thoughts!

  7. Michelle says:

    The narc says “never again” when they disengage with you, except that’s when they don’t mean it . . .

  8. Kel says:

    Ironic, Joel Osteen preached this morning If you’re full of yourself, pretending, wearing masks, then you don’t have room for God. When I was absorbed with my narc, I didn’t have room for God either. My morning prayers would even drift off to thoughts about my narc.

    2 Timothy 3:2 In the last days, men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I make room for God, I let him offload to me every Tuesday afternoon, he says my audio consultations are outstanding value.

      1. Kel says:

        You’re incorrigible, Lol, God loves you even more than we do! 😊

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Of course he does.

      2. Kel says:

        Omg!! You took a selfie!! Nice closeup.

        1. Clarece says:

          He just needs to move the next selfie slightly to the right for a nice headshot!

          1. MB says:

            It will be the eyebrows that tell the tale. Ha ha

      3. NarcAngel says:

        Is that the hand of God?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          a god.

          1. MB says:

            I’m glad we inspired you with picture day. I’m shocked you shared that much with us. Is it a sign we will be seeing more of you, Sir?

          2. HG Tudor says:

            You are not going to find out much from an image of a wax hand.

          3. MB says:

            “Wax hand”. Ha ha. I think not.

          4. MB says:

            Just let me have my fantasies for a while please.

      4. 1jaded1 says:

        This reply is funny, even if it isn’t meant to be. You changed your gravatar to a gripping hand, hmmm.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Always important to get a grip.

      5. Kel says:

        I’m surprised ladies, did no one notice his masculine neck with the collar and his broad shoulders?

        1. MB says:

          Kel, Girl, don’t even get me started…

      6. Kel says:

        You’re so funny with your hand, I just had to do it too.

        HG, are you left handed?

        1. HG Tudor says:


        2. MB says:

          Kel, I usually am the ring leader of mischief in real life. I get a run for my money here though! Most of us enjoy a little mischief around Narcsite!

      7. Kel says:

        Oops, Never mind, my hand shows up like it’s on the left too, but it’s my right hand.

        1. MB says:

          Ha ha Kel! HG is ambidextrous if that’s what you were wondering. It’s a “mirror” image. (Of course!)

      8. Kel says:

        HG, Ha Ha (WP won’t let me Like ☹️)

      9. Tappi Tikarrass says:

        Good morning Kel. You have a lovely shaped hand. Stylish nails too.

      10. Kel says:

        Thank you Tappi! That’s nice to hear 😊

      11. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Agree, Tappi T…. lovely hand, Kel.

      12. Kel says:

        Thank you BurntKrispyKeen! So kind of you! I was just having fun with a hand pic day along with MB. I switched my avatar to something I truly love- coffee!

      13. Morning sun says:

        “I make room for God, I let him offload to me every Tuesday afternoon, he says my audio consultations are outstanding value.”

        I didn’t know you counselled narcissists too, HG.

    2. Melissa says:

      Love this! Funny, when i was absorbed by my husband all my prayers revolved around him. Also on how to help me be more loving. To not let the roots of anger and resentment grow. Then one day God told me to get out of His way. That I couldn’t be the one to change him. That my narc was His responsibility. I gladly accepted that request and slowly let go and let God. Of course he’s not open to the change! My eyes were opened and HG has been a HUGE part of that for me. I love seeing the magicians tricks!

      1. mommypino says:

        I love what you said Melissa, “One day God told you to get out of His way.” I have seen articles by HG pointing out to the narcissistic traits of empaths to fix or heal people and not giving up because our ego basically wouldn’t allow us to give up on someone. The path to freedom is by surrendering to God and having humility. We can love unconditionally while acknowledging that we are not meant to be in someone’s life and just wishing them well while living our lives to the fullest.

      2. ava101 says:

        Those are really wise words. I mean it.

      3. mommypino says:

        Thank you ava101.

      4. Caroline R says:

        Kel, Melissa, Mommypino
        This is something close to our hearts, and I am interested in reading your thoughts about it. How do we navigate life with deliberately hurtful people, and how do we do forgiveness, and ‘love your enemy’ , and not be cynical or bitter. One time my sister was trying to draw me into one more round of nonsense and drama, I felt a strong impression of someone saying to me “you don’t have to do anything; just sit quietly”.
        I sent her a letter saying “I don’t see any reason to explain myself to you, and so I wont be meeting with you any time in the future”
        That was the beginning of no contact for me.

      5. kel says:

        Hi Caroline R,
        Narcissists are blind to themselves. We have to be bigger than them, and not take offense. I still love my mother despite all the bad things she’s done. She’s a good person with an evil streak, and she pushes everyone’s buttons. I ‘love’ my boss I’ve known for 8 years, but I don’t like him, I’ve become mechanical and unemotional from HG’s teachings. But he was a good thing in my life as I learned a lot about me from this experience, just wish it hadn’t taken so long to find out.

      6. kel says:

        Oops, Side note Caroline- I don’t see my mother very often, she lives in another state. If I was around her, it would be impossible to keep my cool as she’s excellent at making all of us lose our tempers. But from afar and just on the phone, we have a great relationship. Not that she can’t take a stab through the phone lines once in awhile, but it’s much easier to deal with.

      7. mommypino says:

        Sorry Caroline, I didn’t see your question until now. I think from my experience, removing myself from their presence works best because no matter how disciplined and positive I try to be, they keep trying to ruin my happy disposition. Just like how your sister triggers you, my mom is the best at trigerring me. She lives in a different country so it is easier to stay away from her.

        I used to get so angry at the memories of what she did to me. I asked her at Skype one time if she really loved me, why did she subject me to constant vituperation when I have actually been a really good kid. And she always said that she doesn’t remember it happening. One time she finally fessed up and said, “I was just trying to get you mad.” And it didn’t make sense to me at all. What would she gain in trying to get me mad? Now that I have been educated from this blog I already know and understand the reasons behind her destructive behavior. So like Kel, I am looking at it objectively now. She has a disorder and I am thankful that I am not like her. Experiencing joy and happiness is such a gift that I wouldn’t want to lose.

        So you did the best thing when you wrote her that letter. And I believe in the power of prayers and unconditional love. We can still love them unconditionally without trying to be a part of their lives. We wish them healing for whatever has cause them to be that way but we don’t have to be the one who fixed or healed them. As time goes on, and with your sister’s inability to create fresh wounds because you stayed away from her, the forgiveness and acceptance that that is just who she is will naturally come to your heart.

      8. Caroline says:

        Kel and Mommypino,
        thank you both for your thoughts and time. I think it is a special thing that we have met up here, and can support each other and understand each others’ perspective and beliefs.
        To the adorable little girl in the sundress: you deserved to be loved, valued and protected. I’m sorry that your mom lacked the ability to have you feel that all the time. She probably didn’t know what it felt like first hand, just as my mum didn’t. Your little ones are fortunate to have you to love and treasure them.

      9. inspire2bu says:

        Caroline R, Your question of “How do we navigate life with deliberately hurtful people, and how do we do forgiveness, and ‘love your enemy’ , and not be cynical or bitter”…My answer would be its ones personal choice. If faith is a huge part of your life as it is mine, I talk to God all the time regarding having a hateful heart towards my narc(my husband) If I’m hateful it shows in all areas of my life. I won’t let him steal my joy. He may at times and leave me quite wounded but I’m learning with HG’s help, and knowledge is power!! I desire to have God’s heart and love others and am a loving and good example for my children(someone need too!) Forgiving, thankfully doesn’t mean continuing to allow the abuse or feel we deserve it. We are to draw boundaries. It’s what healthy people do. I have been reading Romans 12 on a regular basis. (I think our kind empaths/codependents need to be careful reading this chapter as we are already controlled by shame and guilt. Always needing to give more of ourselves than necessary. God despises those who hurt/abuse His children. He doesn’t call us to be doormats.) In verse 9 it says, ‘hate what is evil, love what is good.’ Also verse 17 says ‘do not repay evil for evil’ and verse 19 says, ‘do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “it is mine to avenge, I will repay, ” says the Lord.’ I may not live to see God’s revenge(I keep telling God I would love to see him punished) but I am thankful and faithful he will be

        I take this chapter and verses as a guideline. Kill them with kindness. Forgiveness is not for the one who has hurt you. It is to free your own heart from the burden of hatred. That eats at us more than them. And I’m learning hatred fuels them. If you give them zero emotion them they gather no fuel. So my advice… go to the throne and unload before you unload any emotion on your narc.

      10. Caroline R says:

        Thank you for taking the time to reply at length. I only just checked this thread again and found your reply. I appreciate your thoughts and encouragement.
        Peaceful Christmas wishes to you.

    3. NarcAngel says:

      Well if people are made to believe they are in the last of days, it’s no wonder.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        Replying to myself to see what gives with this yellow avatar abomination.

        1. windstorm says:

          Yellow Avatar? Is WordPress having one of those days? It keeps kicking me out and making me sign in again.

      2. Kel says:

        No one is Made to believe anything NA, except maybe when a narc is slithering their forked tongue putting ideas and doubts in people’s minds. Last days could last a long time

    4. ava101 says:

      When have men ever not been lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy?

      1. Kel says:

        ava101, It’s funny, if you watch one of the early shows of Dick Clark’s American Bandstand, the kids dancing when the cameras moved to them were bashful about it and didn’t look at the cameras, but by the 80’s, the disco dancers were fighting for the limelight, showing off their dance moves, getting in front of the cameras. I’d say sometime between the 50’s and the 80’s things changed a lot. People used to have manners, didn’t have to lock their houses or car doors, kids could play off anywhere safely. It’s just that there’s a huge population of narcissists now.

      2. Tappi Tikarrass says:

        Touché ava101
        Since the end of the matriarchy which I estimate at about 6000 years ago!

      3. ava101 says:

        Exactly, Tappi, I was about to add something similar, but I didn’t want to get into that line of discussions. 🙂

      4. Tappi Tikarrass says:

        Go on ava101, share your thoughts on matriarchy or rather the lack of that system these days, I dare you!
        No, no pressure, just being facetious.
        You’re more diplomatic than I am!

      5. ava101 says:

        Ah, I said it before Tappi …. neither the Law of Maat, nor the times of Ishtar would have tolerated that ….

        But of course, I suppose there have also been narcissistic people. But there might be a difference in how it manifests today and what is tolerated. I do think that a patriarchic world made some behaviours somewhat “acceptable”. I had also posted before: just imagine to have been the wife of a narcissistic psychopath in those times …

      6. Tappi Tikarrass says:

        Thanks for repeating yourself for me ava101

        I must do more reading on Egypt and Mesopotamia….. I had to google Maat and Ishtar. Awesome find in Egypt recently… amazing they’re still finding unopened tombs in such a well known and well dug (archaeologically speaking) area.

    5. Caroline R says:

      Kel that’s interesting. There’s something written about the increase in gaslighting and cognitive dissonance, and that it’s going to be difficult to think clearly because of the BS. This is my paraphrase, but we’ll see how it plays out.

    6. Tappi Tikarrass says:

      Hi Kel
      Where did your lovely hand go?
      Nicer than the coffee cup! Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy coffee. In a cup!

      1. Tappi Tikarrass says:

        On closer inspection, I think it’s tea in that cup. The kettle in the background make me speculate this.
        Not to worry, a cup of tea is how I start my day!
        Coffee is usually drunk around 9am
        I like it both ways. My beverages, not humans

    7. Caroline says:

      Kel, do you belong at Lakewood? I like the podcasts.

  9. littlebit says:

    My narc is calling. His number is blocked but he’s tried to call half a dozen times over 2 days this week, after a month of no contact. I don’t know what set off this frantic flurry and I keep telling myself there is nothing he can need to talk about now that will make any difference as he hasn’t changed in the time I’ve been no contact. He. Hasn’t. Changed. Hold on to that thought when being hoovered.
    My phone autorejects his calls and I knew nothing of them until I saw the call log days later. I am pleased that my first thought was, “what the f*** does he want? I thought he’d given up!” And not anything about unblocking to find out what he wanted. I was annoyed, not desperate to speak to him.
    Of course, I’ve had a resurgence of the urge to contact him, I’ve been bursting into tears of anguish, feeling a desperate longing to hear his voice, replaying the good memories. I’ve been telling myself all sorts in an attempt to justify just one text to check he’s Ok, blah blah blah. No. He. Hasn’t. Changed. He merely misses my fuel. Never again. I need to keep telling myself, convincing myself. Never again.

    1. Supernova DE says:

      I’m feeling the same way today. I have been doing so well, but the ET was swirling earlier and saying, “It wasn’t so bad, he’s just busy, he can’t talk to you all the time.” and “It’s fine, just use for some fun on the side, and let the rest go.” Well, isn’t it funny that those have been my thoughts every time I let him hoover me in the past – I’m angry at myself for slipping. I’m stronger this time, I won’t contact him myself, but I’m feeling like I’m at risk of unblocking (as a way of passively putting myself in his spheres) or looking at his social media, or photos of him etc.

      Three steps forward, now a few back – is this what to expect for the conceivable future?! I’m not a very patient person haha, one of the things that cause me major problems with the shelf.

      1. littlebit says:

        I’ve had that thought, of unblocking but not contacting him so I can receive his texts and see what he says. I won’t reply, I tell myself. I won’t answer if he calls. But I will, I know I will, because I’ve done it before. If you unlock the door he can just come back in whenever he wants.

    2. Cindy says:

      Hi littlebit,
      Been going through the same thoughts and feelings. Last week I went no contact (again). I keep saying to myself, “never going to change, never going to change”. I can never be with him again, never be his friend. I broke NC last time because a mutual friend was killed. Narc was on his best behavior, and I even asked him if he wanted to have sex once in a while, but not restart the formal relationship. I’m so pathetic, and grief can make one so vulnerable. I believe he was glad our friend died…more fuel for him.
      I’m so glad his mask started to slip before he slipped into me. It only took a minor, stupid, selfish statement from him to hurl me back into reality. I picked a fight with him so he would turn me black and put me back on the shelf.
      He’s been fucking other women with his teeny tiny roll of dimes he calls a penis, and of course lied about it. So glad HG’s voice of reason has become cemented in my head. I heard it loud and clear and got out before any real damage was done. The break from him this time was quick, and a lot less painful. Keep telling myself, “not going to change, not going to change.”

      1. littlebit says:

        I tried the friends with benefits thing with my narc, all it did was give him even more permission to treat me like crap and exclude me from his life further. It was always amazing when we were in bed, and I miss that intense passion so much – it was the only thing we got right. And, unlike your narc, mine had a rather large penis. Not the biggest I’ve ever seen, but almost. It was beautiful looking, smelling, tasting, it was perfection. I’ve never said that about a penis before, but it was. I think I miss that thing more than the rest of him!

        1. MB says:

          Littlebit, “I think I miss that thing more than the rest of him!” 😳 Comment of the day right there!

  10. mommypino says:

    I love the last paragraph. I would never want to experience that. I know how destructive my mom has been to my life. I will never again (and I truly mean this in my heart of hearts) let a narcissist derail my life.

  11. Vera says:

    HG, I think you should consider the time spent in the relationship and the narcissist type. Investigating and catching the narcissist can help. It is a painful process but the reward shall come in the form of the realisation that it was all counterfeit and that nothing can be done. After deconstructing and exposing (not to the world necessary, but to oneself) the deeds and words of the narcissist, one cannot feel nostalgia anymore. Once the “what if” is eliminated and you look the cruel truth in the eyes how can you look back? Easier said than done though, the process is extremely painful and dispelling the mirage is against our nature. But I believe in self education and change – provided there are some cognitive abilities at hand and the willingness to do the hard work.

    1. Tappi Tikarrass says:

      Well said Vera
      Thank goodness HG exists to provide us with the truth and thus insight.

  12. Veronique Jones says:

    That is true I cannot say never again because the amount of times I’ve given second third and fourth chances This is why I’m following you I hope to learn enough about your kind to avoid them completely because I never want to be involved with another narcissist

  13. Sarah says:

    More home truths with HG…..

    The intensity of seduction in the golden period is life changing as is ever presence. Never again have I felt that captivated, yet never again have I felt that hurt or betrayed.

    Hushed endurance of having a heart which has been tainted in this way is a small price to pay for escape and freedom.

    1. Tamara Beij says:

      You are so right Sarah!
      That’s a real small price for having freedom, feeling lucky and without stress and set healthy boundaries so you can really open your heart for someone who is sincer to love you:-)

      1. Sarah says:

        Thanks Tamara.
        Yes, the more I read here, the greater my realisation that I dodged a bullet with my name on it…..I am grateful and I need no more compensation than that!

  14. Leslie says:

    They will be and are so much better

  15. Tappi Tikarrass says:

    Surely someone has commented before….
    Never say never again!!!

    Anyone who has truly absorbed your work will not feel how you describe above because they are now aware of how fake the whole situation was. How fake the narcissist was.
    HG, you have generously displayed your devils toolkit and general craft to any who are interested. At some point, the illusion will shatter.

    The heartbreak doesn’t last forever.
    Nothing lasts forever, not even the pain of loss.

    1. Melissa says:

      Tappi, good perspective. I guess that’s why I say NEVER AGAIN! I see mine differently. I know none of it was real. His smile isn’t even genuine. Because I now know the monster he is, I truly don’t reflect on what it once was. There is nothing I miss or want back from him. NOTHING! The ONLY part that makes me sad is the fact that my children don’t have a say. They won’t have the WHOLE family unit. But…. that’s the narcs fault not mine!

      1. Tappi Tikarrass says:

        Thanks Melissa and I feel the same towards mine. I don’t miss or long or pine or wish. For a good 12 months whenever I thought of him, my first thoughts were ‘cunt, I hate you, I hope you die’ or words to that effect! It was horrible being filled with so much anger. I admit I can have a blue tongue and a blue sense of humour but the foul language thoughts and words were too much, even for me.

        Yes, your children won’t have the whole family unit but they’ll have your love and support to compensate for his lack.

    2. ava101 says:

      Where are you from, Tappi?

      1. Tappi Tikarrass says:

        I come from a land down under ava101

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Can you hear, can you hear the thunder?

      2. Caroline R says:

        Hi ava101
        I’m not sure whether you saw my comment on a previous post, but I wanted to ask you about your sister, and what was the final straw for you to go no contact with her? I don’t mean to upset you by asking.

      3. Tappi Tikarrass says:

        you better run, you better take cover HG 😉

        1. HG Tudor says:

          No chance, I know a man from Brussels!

      4. Tappi Tikarrass says:

        Hehehe HG
        Are you trying to tempt me?
        Because I come from the land of plenty?

      5. ava101 says:

        Ah, cool!

        Love that song.

      6. ava101 says:

        Caroline R:

        I went no contact this fall when she just went too far and attacked me by her actions.

        I didn’t have much contact with her over the years anyways, but that was always because of her behaviour, like… putting herself into the center, not caring AT ALL that I was very ill, ignoring gifts while complaining she never got any, not visiting when I was in a new city but coming there for a concert, thinking it ok for her son not to say “thank you” when getting a gift, never helping with anything in the past decades, not caring about what I had told her about abuse by one ex, slapping me, carrying home some of my father’s belongings after his death without bothering to ask us, feeling entitled to get other of his things, etc.

        She also, together with my narc parents, got my grandparents to change their will very shortly before their death when they were very ill, so my father got left everything, while before my grandfather had wished to give the money to his 3 grandchildren (he knows of ….) equally. She then got a huge sum from that money to build a new house, my mother still lives in.

        So, a year ago she ignored my e-mails about helping HER with a minor health issue, when she had the information she had wanted, completely ignoring my major health issues, never even asking once again, how I was, not e-mail for christmas, not coming over to my mother’s house for christmas, when I had travelled there, etc.

        But she then complained that I had decided to move to a different country, emotionally blackmailing me, about, who was to care for our mother, etc.

        But I went ‘real’ no contact about 2 months ago, when I would have had a court date (I am suing my ex-landlord), she had agreed to be a witness before, we had talked about that in person. About a week before the date, she wrote a letter to the court directly (not to my lawyer, or me, never even informing me, I got the message from the court) that she would prefer not to be there as a witness, as a) she had a pottery class that afternoon, b) she couldn’t say anything about that matter (making it sound like I had lied) and c) I had left the country without her knowing where I was.
        She made it sound, like I had fled for some reason without anyone having my contact details. She doesn’t have my address, but she has any other contact details, I have the same phone number, same e-mail, etc.
        So, the lawyer of the ex-landlord of course reacted to all this, etc. … and I have no witness, as I hadn’t asked loads of other people when she had agreed.

      7. Caroline R says:

        Oh Ava,
        What a huge amount of heartache for you!
        My sister has done similar things, I recognise the nastiness.
        I’m so sorry that you have all that stress with your ex landlord, and all the BS of your sister.
        Mine has undermined me constantly, and a few years ago I realised the great damage trying to have a relationship with her was doing to me. It affected all my female friendships.
        This week I realised new depths of her twisted ugliness and destructive spite towards me, and I’m going to have to take legal steps to undo the damage.
        Ava, you don’t deserve all that crap.
        I imagine you have been a loving and supportive sister to her, and when you need her, she kicks you and leaves.

      8. Caroline R says:

        The giving of presents or not is one of her favourite mind games to play with me. I’ve never been able to get a straight answer from her about it, but since I’ve been here at narcsite, I realise I’m not dealing with a normal, loving, rational person but someone empty, hell- bent on controlling me.

      9. ava101 says:

        Caroline R,

        thank you!! for your kind words and understanding! Well, the list is endless …

        I am really sorry for that destructiveness in your life, too. 🙁 It is hard to recognize, because we want of course a loving relationship with our sister, and also, we are used to their behaviours. Noone ever said that my sister’s behaviour wasn’t okay when I grew up, so I learned to accept it as normal. Maybe it was similar for you? I even suffered consequences from her actions at school and how she had treated a friend, when the brother of that friend was in my class … they made me accountable for the way she was … and also assumed I was the same. 🙁 And I didn’t even understand back then.
        When you need legal assistance, things must be pretty bad … which steps are you taking? I hope, you will see it through, have the strength for it.
        So you have certainly reason enough to stay no contact. I hope, you can do that, and also feel okay with it. I hope the very best for you. We don’t really expect our sisters to be this way, so excuse almost anything, I suppose.
        It is sad, I know, I long to have a real sister, when I physically do have 3 … … Maybe that even requires a mourning process? I don’t know … … But I am glad you have asked these questions, because I had totally suppressed what she had just done 2 months ago, while I would have needed support the most.
        I had also always wished for a brother, instead ;D I suppose I kind of imagined he would be rescuing me like a fairy tale prince, standing up for me … (Knowing my luck, I am now sure, he would have been a narc brother from hell, too).

        I also trust women even less than men and sadly unconsciously tend to having problems to respect them, because of how I was raised … after growing up with my narc mother, this narc sister and one other sister who is God knows what … And an absent narc father. … My friendships also seem to have been sabotaged by my mother, I never had a lasting friendship as a child with another girl.
        Yes, a weird thing with the presents … expecting stuff, ignoring stuff, still clinging to it … the other way round – she has given me ONE personal present in my whole life, as far as I remember.

        This sister is 7 years older than me, and I used to adore her as a child. Even though she physically pushed me away, was always bullying and domineering, entitled to everything, alway yelling at me, etc., but I didn’t realize then, because she was so much older, and because that matched the overall tone in my family (desastrous to me and my confidence) … I distanced myself for the first time when I was about 15 and had asked her for advice on my first not-so-serious boyfriend, and her advice was reaaaally strange and about her, not me (in hindsight: very egocentric AND just sick).
        The worst things I remember are her hammering with her fists on the head of my other sister while my parents were on holiday and ignoring us the rest of the time (I was about 8, she was supposed to look after us); … her saying that the mother of my little half sister should have aborted her; her telling my first serious boyfriend when I was about 18, that I had grown up in a too comfortable and protective (…) environment and would have needed my parents to spank me more, etc., siding with him (he was abusive, too) putting me down.

        However, I went away for a year when I was 16, and she moved out and away, and she never! bothered then about me / the family, and was really horrible when I visited her. (I was good enough to accompany her to the disco when her boyfriend had broken up with her, then she ignored me again). When I was a student, she came visit me for the FIRST time, since I had moved out after 3 or 4 years … and then she made it all about herself, because she was pregnant, and then it was ALWAYS about her because she had a child and I hadn’t. Whatever! I tried to give her or her son, she put it down.
        Now she is searching for something else to occupy her time, etc., and she wanted to do a travel blog two years ago, so I set the whole thing up for her, helped her, coached her … even while I was pretty ill. Hardly a thank you then, only complaints, trying to get me to write her blog for her for free, and then just abandoning the whole thing when she noticed that it was a lot of work, and no cash machine. But of course also not respecting my expertise, unless I would have worked for her for free.
        [In typical narc fashion, she’s been doing that for years now, changing occupations, and then not caring about the consequences and just letting it let go – having a toy store; a book store; a craft shop; …. always trying to get me to do stuff for her, …]

        So, here I am wondering why I am feeling depressed, …

      10. ava101 says:

        Caroline R,
        if I am not mistaken, there is an article somewhere here about gifts …

      11. ava101 says:

        Caroline R:
        I just had to think of a lady who did systemic family constellations, have you heard of that? I had two with her, over 10 years ago.
        So, she was doing a lot of harm, because she was interpretating and pushing me into a direction she wanted.
        She kept telling me, how her own sister gave her so much strength, and how they had resolved family issues together.
        She also criticized how I had positioned my parents – both completely looking out of the picture. The person representing me said, she felt really incredibly cold.
        However, the point is: siblings (and parents ….) are supposed to give you strength, to have you back, to stand next to you or behind you, empower you.
        When that is missing and you get all that abuse and crazy making instead, of course there is a factor missing in your life.
        But I don’t think one can force it.
        I had a systemic constellation hour later, with someone from a different school, he let my picture after few modifications fixed, standing there like it was, and he told me, it was better for me to see that picture and accept it, as it was, and not force a change.
        That helped me so much more, because it showed, how I was never in the center of my own life, and how my father always completely looked away from the whole picture.
        What I want to say is that, yes, of course we want that bond with our sister, and to have that strength from it, and not draining us, but sometimes we just can’t change it, and have to let it go.
        To see those family constellations can also help to see what isn’t really our burden.
        That part kind of helped me not to speak to my mother anymore, because sometimes I feel pity for her, but then again I think, she was always only fixed on my father as her main energy source, not bothering about us, and it is HER responsibility to cope with the consequences, we cannot carry the burden forever for other family members.
        That’s kind of what even HG does I believe. …
        We can take the experience, but get kind of cleansed of it (yes, I am working on that still, myself). Because that all drains so much energy … So remember your strong family roots, or you wouldn’t be alive today.
        When I think about the impact of growing up with a family like that, when I read (like I just did) about the effects of childhood abuse and of course later abuse (emotional abuse, etc.), … I wonder about how much strength we already have proven, we just need to learn not to let it used by our family, when those families don’t provide the strength and security, they are supposed to. It is bad enough that we never had that support, so I think we must stop even wasting our energy in that direction, where it dissolves into nothing.

      12. K says:

        Here is the link to the article about gifts.

      13. Caroline says:

        I very much appreciate all the thought you’ve put into answering me, and I sense that there was a great tsunami of frustration and pain from years of experiences that made you feel unloved and never good enough, and certainly not safe.
        Whenever you need to share things, please feel free to do that with me. The things you’ve said resonate with me, and you seem to understand so much of my life behind the scenes too, amazingly. Your dynamic with your older sister bullying you reminds me of my sister-in-law’s family. She and I bonded very early on sharing our experiences with our sisters.
        I have recently read ‘Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers’ and found it made things fall into place, about so many things, the impact on female friendships, for example, etc. These things have a huge impact on the female psyche; we are made for connection, and need to be accepted, understood and to feel safe and listened to. We need it like air. To have emotional violence from other females is deeply damaging.
        I have been trying subconsciously to work out issues with my mother and sister in all of my friendships. I have been a N-magnet for smothering, controlling, octopus-like women in my friendship relationships.
        I had a metaphorical dream once just before one of them ended in flames (they all end in high drama).
        In the dream I was trying to have a snake as a pet. I was always on guard in case it bit me, and I had zero enjoyment from all the effort I put in. It was a “what am I here for again?” moment, that always come about in N-relationships.

        Did I read that English isn’t your first language? You express yourself very well if that’s the case. I used to speak fluent French, but have lost it due to lack of practise.

      14. ava101 says:

        Thank you, K!

      15. ava101 says:

        Hi Caroline R,

        – The anger: I have thrown a complete set of china on the wall, a used one that my sister had given to me, as she always liked to dump her used stuff on me, if I wanted it or not … so I found good use for that gift of hers….. ;D

        – I am grateful that you had asked about my sister, because I really think I had stored it all away in a dark corner of my mind too much. I was walking at the beach yesterday, crying and shouting in anger (I was all by myself there, so ….).

        – You are quite right about the rest.

        – What frustrated me the most, is, that my whole family (well, only my narc mother & sisters left, plus their husbands) still acts as if everything had been sooo wonderful and normal and protected all my childhood. I was made to think that I was the one with the wrong perception. I remember lying in my bed when I was 8 years old crying for no reason …. but there was a reason. :/
        And yes, the aweful effect is that I am blind to people putting me down and themselves in the center, etc., because I am sooo used to it.

        – That is very nice with your sister-in-law! So she is kind of normal and you can talk with her?? That is fantastic!

        – >”I have recently read ‘Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers’ and found it made things fall into place, about so many things, the impact on female friendships, for example, etc. These things have a huge impact on the female psyche; we are made for connection, and need to be accepted, understood and to feel safe and listened to. We need it like air. To have emotional violence from other females is deeply damaging.”

        That is a very interesting line of thought.
        I had felt from my early 20ies that I needed a more … female-centric spirituality and was very drawn to ideas such as put down in the works by Marion Zimmer Bradley … I knew then that I had needed a more … nurturing mother, but never knew exactly why or understood the dynamic. I also never felt strong enough to become a mother myself. 🙁
        My mother is a passive aggressive mid range kind of narc, but not your usual one, either, it’s a bit twisted. E. g. she never wore make-up and never made me a version of herself.

        – “I have been trying subconsciously to work out issues with my mother and sister in all of my friendships. I have been a N-magnet for smothering, controlling, octopus-like women in my friendship relationships.”

        Ah, no … I am so sorry. 🙁
        Yes, the subconscious patterns are very strong, they repeat themselves over and over again. It’s so unfair.
        Octupus-like … ;D
        Yes, me, too, …. false best friends, etc.

        – Cool dream. 🙂 I had dreams about HG, where women and even Goddesses played a role. ;D Maybe I should rethink my interpretation in regard to the female narcs in my life …

        – No, English is my 2nd language. Thank you. Your French will come back to you. 🙂 Mine was still well enough to order some coffee and food. ;D I was trying to become Irish, but people said I had a very strong accent, that I wouldn’t sound very Irish. 🙁 🙁 But I’m not living there at the moment. So, yes, I get by …

    3. Caroline R says:

      Hi Tappi T,
      I hope things are going well for you.

      1. Tappi Tikarrass says:

        Hi Caroline R
        Lovely of you to think of me. I’m not too bad. Alright even. The anger is abating, thank fuck (haha)

        Such a sharing and articulate one arent I?

      2. Tappi Tikarrass says:

        Caroline R
        Are you the same Caroline that I had a quick chat about Vikings with? I’m getting excited. The latest season will broadcast in Oz next week.

      3. Caroline R says:

        Yes, it’s the same Caroline. The Caroline who was here before me has a green snowflake stamp, and I’m royal blue, but in an attempt to reduce confusion I thought I’d add the R.
        I saw the ad for Vikings too. Did you see any Superwog episodes at all? His dad is such a Lesser rageaholic.
        Where in Australia are you?

      4. Tappi Tikarrass says:

        Thanks for clarifying CR….. Australian yourself Caroline? Or at least living in Oz. For some reason I thought you were British.

        Oh yes, I’ve watched superwog. I’ve been watching them on YouTube for a few years. Wog dad is SO lesser. I also have a wog narc dad but I haven’t been able to place him in the right school yet. My dads fury was mostly cold but when it was hot it was horrifyingly memorable. 99% of the time he was cool and calm. I’ll consult with HG to ascertain cause I can’t decide where he fits.

        Back to superwog, I’m so happy for them and their success. They’re smart boys with albeit filthy minds. They also live in the same area of the city I live in (That’ll give you an idea of where I am in Aust). They were interviewed on radio national recently if you’re interested in listening to them out of character.

        Maybe we CAN set up a narcoholics group!

        I’ve been reading with interest the sister talk between yourself and a few others….. my sister is a Mid-ranger, MREN like my ex I guesstimate. Again, my consult will confirm yea or nay…. it will be a Christmas gift to myself.
        I didn’t want to push in but thank you to all who have shared their recent sister stories. Ava101s story was sad to read but oh so common and predictable. In my most angry moments I fantasise about being a narc slayer and using my gilded sword on any I encounter.

      5. Caroline says:

        Tappi T,
        come to my psychologist, she encourages us to get in touch with our anger because it’s usually toxically suppressed. I have generalised N-Tourettes now. Who knows if it will ever heal? I’m a bit concerned I might swear in front of little ears at my brother’s house though, so I must practise some restraint, and being my usual calm, dignified self.

        Auntie Carrie might have to eat her Christmas dinner outside otherwise, banished.

      6. ava101 says:

        Please, Tappi, come with your sword and rescue me from my family. ;D
        And please say anything you like …. I have never thought much about my sister, I had more just avoided her (both of them) …
        But maybe I should be more aware. So far, it had been enough to think about my parents. ;D It was just now, when I couldn’t believe her most recent actions, that it hit me. I didn’t want to believe the past 2 years (really, 2 already, here on the blog??) that 80% of my family are narcs, like … how is that possible? Like ALL of the people I grew up with wore masks, like being surrounded by aliens in truth.
        I do have my spiritual sisters.

        I love to watch Married at First Sight AUS. 😉 Sooo many narcs … haha. Can’t wait for the next season to start.

        I’m sooo sorry to hear about your sister …. had you known, like … were you aware that she had some kind of personality disorder for long? I only knew that my sisters are a bit … strange and horrible. 😉
        How did you deal with it?
        Ah you don’t deserve that, either.

        I like your nick so much, I have thought about renaming myself to tappi101.

      7. Tappi Tikarrass says:

        Aunty Carrie I must share this N-Tourette’s story with you.

        I inadvertently said the unthinkable. In a car whilst driving. In front of my niece (8or so at the time). A big fat man in a huge white SUV comes out of nowhere. ‘Cunt’ is my response. My niece asks ‘Aunty, whats a cunt?’
        Luckily my brother is an easygoing guy. He was chuckling as I was ashamedly relaying the days events to him. Actually my brother is gorgeous. An empath married to a mid-range narcissist I’m sorry to report.
        Hope mine heals soon!

      8. Tappi Tikarrass says:

        Hey Tappi101
        Your family sounds draining and avoiding the Ns is a perfectly logical thing to do.What’s the point engaging? it’s always toxic, often boring, often provocative.

        Once you fully realise how prevalent the condition is in all its schools and cadres, and HGs blog hastens that process, its shocking and mind blowing and takes time to process. So your reactions are perfectly normal.
        I realised my sister is a narc a few years ago. When I first started learning about narcissism several years ago for my ex, I quickly came to identify the familial narcs…they are more grandiose than my ex was- with me anyways, so easier to identify. He was grandiose amongst friends especially and some his own family and tried to hide that aspect of himself from me. He knows I despise arrogant, braggart type men.

        Sorry, back to my sister. I realised what she was and even called her one during an argument. She is very self aware and very vain. Oh and did I forget manipulative? She is a master manipulator and would make a great ‘influencer’. We have been pretty much no contact for few years now. She lives 1000s of kms away so that has made it very easy for me.

        Her betrayal of trust and trying to put a wedge between me and my children were the last straw. She uses social media to keep all her familial fuel lines going. My children now realise what she is and this has created a great dilemma for them. I feel for them. I’ve told them that if they want to maintain contact that’s fine by me but they must not relay any info about me to her. I’ve reminded them that she can be wily and cunning and try in a roundabout way to glean info, so perhaps best not to talk about me at all with her.

        Ava101, it sounds as though your family was predominently narc. I was lucky, my family had a better balance of narc-empath. When the balance tipped in favour to the narc side, due to death or self imposed exile, that’s when the entire family system gradually eroded. The narcs were able to get away with things they wouldn’t have been able to if the balancing empaths were still around.

        It was gradual and painful to witness. And experience.

        Goodness this is a long post, thanks if you’re still reading it! I want to share one more thing. Reading other people’s, predominantly womens, experiences has really helped to put my own narc experiences into perspective. I feel really lucky to not have been subjected to the level of horror that others have. But I feel very angry for them. Reading how others are protective of each other after they’ve shared stories is so fucking endearing to the people involved. Enough already…

        Ava101 if you like Aussie married at first sight, go check the link below, it’s the superwog take on the show. I have to confess, I haven’t watched it. The tv show not the superwog skit!

      9. Tappi Tikarrass says:

        The never ending response from Tappi
        Re renaming yourself, I’m actually considering renaming myself. I love the name too, don’t get me wrong; the alliteration of it as well as the woman who was a member!
        But… the name is a reminder of my ex. He used to tappi tikarrass me in playful moments. If you google the name these days, it says cork that arse but that has been misinterpreted by Atlantic English users to mean plug. It’s referring to when someone uses their palm to strike their palm face downwards, like a whip, not palm to bottom or something into said bottom.

        I took on the psuedonym before reading exorcism. Now, I’m tossing up whether to toss it out. I’m thinking of ‘crystalline’. It’s describes what happened to my perception of narcissism after discovering and digesting HGs work and it’s still in theme, so to speak. And I love a particular version of that song, from the album bastards. I’ll put a link for it below. Gets me going every time. Lifts my mood every time.

        Hope you enjoy, let me know!

        One last thing, your command of written English is excellent, as CR mentioned recently

      10. ava101 says:

        Hi Tappi,
        Yes, I like that, Tappi101. But I had no idea where that nick came from. ;D
        Crystalline is very nice, too. I had named my first coaching offer “crystal coaching”, until somone said, it sounded like “crystel meth” (probably the ex-narc). So I get totally what you mean by it. It’s nice.
        Somone once told me I would get to total emotional clarity in this life (still waiting for that), and I think the realizations about narcissism help a lot in that.
        I like the track you’ve linked a lot.  I’ve always like turkish versions of pop songs.
        Ahahah (like the people here write, when say want to say “hahaha”)!
        So, I finally know what Superwog is, a brilliant show, thanks for the link!  They nailed it. 😉
        You know, in the American version of Married at First Sight, the “experts” might at least say something like “there a deeper underlying problems”, but in the AUS version, they act as if the narcissism and the really inacceptable behaviour was a normal thing to watch … but it is interesting to watch, so.
        Well, everybody has their own unique narc experience … yes, I also think, compared to some, I have had it easy. Fucked up my mind and my perception nonetheless.
        Yes, I don’t know what’s up with my family, but you are right, after my grandfather had died, his balancing influence was missed deeply by myself, and I felt like I had lost the only loving person in my family. I don’t have another empath role model in my family. I don’t know if my other sister is a narc or just messed up, too, but there is no way to have a normal conversation or activity with her. I only know that she and her husband mirror the relationship of my parents, like it seemed externally.
        Self-imposed exile: yes, I did that, and as I said, my eldest sister went beserk. She has lost her scapegoat, etc., they all seemed desperate not to loose me for the role I was playing for them.
        That is very sad about your sister, too.  So here we go again, with the trust issue & narc sisters. When a sister should be the most trustworthy person of all. Good that you can talk with your children, and make them understand. It’s better with the distance.
        “Once you fully realise how prevalent the condition is in all its schools and cadres” – Yes, it’s incredible and so frustrating.
        I actually find that funny that your ex tried to hide his sense of grandiosity from you. 
        My ex never was able to appear as a humble person, he would burst out laughing and then make a comment about how great he was in fact.
        Yes, so many of us did have narcs in the family first, and have developed patterns accordingly, and have been “primed”. 

        I am very proud of myself today, because I had forced myself to go out yesterday, to a vegan meet-up for the second time and I spoke to several really nice women who can safely be said to be between normal and empath. I will try to befriend and trust one or two of them, who don’t remind me of my sisters at all, but of my first best friend.

        (Same meeting where I had watched the couple where the guy is clearly a narc – but thanks to HG it has become so much easier to spot that kind of narc that hangs around that kind of empaths, people who want to do some good … he wasn’t listening to the lady who spoke about her book, nor does he participate in the activism events themselves).
        Please write more, I don’t mind at all. 

        I really wish we could all meet in real life, to be supportive of each other, as our sisters should have been.

        My little half sister once called my father out, telling him, that he should be proud of me, getting me through university myself, etc. (nooo reaction from him, but ignoring me even more). While my eldest sister still accuses me of having gone to university, claiming, it was my fault that she didn’t go (riiiiight … when she is 7 yrs older and made her own decisions …. ).
        [Either way, she never even asked about my life, let alone be there for me, and she never understood that I was working the whole time. Funny thing is, she started 1 year ago to do what she had wanted to do with a college degree: teach art classes to young children. Guess what happened …. yes, she called in sick after 2 or 3 weeks and then quit soon after that.]

        1. NarcAngel says:

          It sounds like your sister is extremely jealous of you and has shame. She likely didn’t go to University because she knew she would not be successful, just like her attempt to teach art. It sounds like she bores easy and can not force herself to stay engaged. She may also have shame because being your older sister she feels entitled to be the successful one and to be the example but she is not. So you must be brought down (in her eyes). It’s nothing to do with you really, it’s her deep shame and jealousy, and you are being made to pay for her failures.
          Thats what I got from the outside looking in.

      11. Tappi Tikarrass says:

        Hey ava101

        May I ask where you live these days? A rough idea is more than fine.

        Thank you for sharing some of your sister stories. I have many of them too. I could go on for pages and pages.

        I can hear your disappointment and sadness as I read.You’re 200% right. You have to let them go, let them all go. Let anyone go who doesn’t have your best interests at heart.

        I’m glad to hear that you get yourself out there and try to meet new, more like-minded people. It would be great for all of us to meet each other… even FaceTime/Skype.
        I hope you meet at least one or two wonderful people that you can build fun, authentic and mutually respectful friendships with. Quality not quantity is what I’m trying to say.

        Respect to you for being a vegan. I’m not much of a meat eater, never have been, though Id struggle giving up dairy and eggs! Weak!

        Back to sister talk; the competitiveness, the jealousy, the smearing. So unnecessary. When I realised the full extent of her betrayals and machinations, it hurt so much. Like you, I believed that sisters should stick by each other, provide unconditional love and support. I was raised that way too. But I had to let it go. I had to reexamine the belief- that my sister loves me and wants what’s best for me- and replace it. I have yet to fully deal with that narc relationship, personally… internally.

        At least I don’t get guilt tripped by other family members to reconcile- well not anymore- because that would be annoying and cut further people out of my life. Besides, they know I have every right and reason to cut her out of my life.

        I’m glad you enjoyed crystalline…. the original version is a little hard to listen to. Apparently it’s timing is synchronous to the chemical structure of growing crystals. I love that bjork (like Prince) even imagine things like that and then manifest them. Both those artists are/were truly avant guarde…. when they get it right, it’s 200% right, but when they occasionally get it wrong……. meh.

        Mainstream Australian culture is quite narcissistic…. and chauvinistic. I’m impressed you picked that up. There is a pervasive domestic violence problem here. It really once was the lucky country. Not anymore.

        Sending you strength, determination and a big dose of JOY xx

      12. ava101 says:

        Hello NarcAngel,
        Thank you!

        Never considered “shame” on her part. Jealousy: yes, maybe. But about the money for her.
        Bored, yes, I agree. That, and not wanting to put in any work. Then blaming others.

      13. ava101 says:

        Ola, Tappi,

        at the moment I live in Portugal. But will change countries again, next year. I have for now rented a beautiful, too big house in the countryside, with orange and lemon trees and all. But it is too far away from the city. And scary.
        [The other day, the door from outside to the cellar was open when I came home, and I had firmly locked it from the inside … that was very scary .. had also heard strange noises that day. So, turned out, the noises were the father of the landlady who uses the garage here, and I am sure he lied about the cellar door, because his answers were a) hardly reacting to potential breakin, b) deflecting by pointing out the one of the hinges wasn’t fixed, which had nothing to do with the lock.  only learned to observe such things since I am on the blog, seriously. So, I also didn’t like the idea that he was walking through the house … but the landlady found the key for the inside door to the cellar finally.]

        Yeah, I wish you could all come visit. ;D There would be room enough for you all.

        >sister stories. I could go on for pages and pages.

        Yes, I am sure. Feel free to share some of them.

        Sad thing is that my mother supported her for the most time. …
        Yes, I was listening to a song yesterday about letting go, though the meaning was a bit different. I have a 0 tolerance policy in my life, about people who don’t have my best interest at heart. That is why it got a bit empty … and well, I often notice a bit too late.

        I was going out there again, before, overcoming my newly aquired social phobia (thanks to the ex narc), but I still have the talent to attract the one narc in a room with 100 people … If it wasn’t for HG’s explanations on those dirty faced narcs, esp. those who like to act as if they were good people and like to hang around those places where helpful empaths go, I couldn’t deal with it at all. But I haven’t been wrong about some people in my life who turned out to be really nice and empathetic.

        >… even FaceTime/Skype.
        Yeah, that would be cool.

        Can’t we do a group chat, HG?

        >I hope you meet at least one or two wonderful people
        Working on it. 😉

        > dairy and eggs!
        Haha. Ah, you just need to visualize clearly where they are coming from … and what they are for …. ;P

        >When I realised the full extent
        :/ So sorry to hear that. 🙁 Fully understand. And everything that comes with it. And yes, the moment of the full realisation … that is quite something.

        It is true that my mother tried to guilt trip me again and again. … “She is your sister …”, “Why don’t you do something together”, “Why don’t you play with your nephew”, … etc. While she herself never saw HER side of the family, and managed to isolate us from them … like … I DO have cousins, etc., but hardly know them at all.

        >I have yet to fully deal with that narc relationship, personally… internally.

        🙁 Yes, so much harm. And regret. And mourning actually. Is she older or younger?

        > Apparently it’s timing is synchronous to the chemical structure of growing crystals.
        … and crystals need to grow for a very, very long time.

        My first narc love adored Prince and used to dress like him, incl. the curls, etc. ;D

        “Sometimes it snows in April … sometimes I feel so bad ….”

        Hm … I’ve heard a lot about Australia, social and political problems, what is going on there and esp. the harsh regulations and control over your country … and I regret to say that I won’t visit it any time soon, as much as I would love to hold a Koala … we do have Eucalyptus trees here …

        But I am a great fan of the Melbourne shuffle and hardstyle. ;D
        I like the Australian DJ Tetrameth a lot, and have read a lot of good about the Rainbow Serpent Festival in the words of my favourite DJ who is a strooooong empath (my role model, though also in the hands of a narc lady, it seems to me personally).

        Only semi serious about this one, but like it for the bounce:

        >Sending you strength, determination and a big dose of JOY xx

        To you, too. 🙂

        Determination is the right word … I love the scene in Dangerous Liaisons where Michelle Pfeiffer lies down and just dies …

        1. HG Tudor says:

          That was me in the cellar, I wanted some wine.

        2. MB says:

          Ava101, I had suggested a webex or gotomeeting. I’ve been on tons of those calls. It would be so cool to hear everyone. HG can do a presentation with slides and such and then have a Q & A session where we can raise our virtual hands. Nobody would see anybody but we could interact as a group. (Or maybe this would be a great forum for Clarece’s HG interview.) 🤞

      14. ava101 says:

        Hey Tappi,

        so, about anger. … esp. also in regard to my sister, I have been kicking stones in the woods, etc., I’ve tried redical forgiveness (not getting there yet ;D ) — but I also like to DANCE!!
        So that is my physical therapy.
        Unfortunately, here in Portugal, events start !! like at midnight earliest, when I went to see my fav DJ 2 weeks ago he started at 5 in the morning!

        Well, and this kind of music is also good for my brain chemistry.
        (Seriously, I have read about the effect, it is the same reason why people coming down from drugs often need this kind of music).

      15. ava101 says:

        Ah ha ha, HG!

        There really is wine … totally full of dust … but it didn’t look really appealing … ;D Also some bottles upstairs … If you could see this house … there really is room for us all at a huge wooden table, all really old, oil paintings of monks at the walls (really!), and a huuuge open fire place, I’ve burnt half a tree trunk in.

        It could be sooo romantic, just the two of us …

      16. Tappi Tikarrass says:

        Dear ava101
        Hopefully you haven’t turned off notifications for this post….
        I hope you can accept my apologies for disappearing and not replying to your response below. December was ridiculously busy. I had one child move out and another move in, so, in conjunction with work and the Christmas festivities, I had no time to visit here. I use my dumb smartphone mainly as a telephone, (shock horror) so that doesn’t help with the delay.

        I haven’t even had time to read any of HGs posts! As you surely know, I now have quite a bit of catch-up reading to do.

        I hope the seasons break was relaxing for you with liberal doses of fun.

        I’ve made a teeny mix tape just for you, as a way to compensate for my rude disappearance….. just a few songs for you to enjoy and also to answer some of your questions!
        I’ve made mixtapes since I was a child, with my first cassette player. Music plays a huge role in my life and in my emotional expression. As Aldous Huxley has stated…. Apart from silence, the closest thing that comes to expressing the inexpressible is music. Or words to that effect….

        The playlist below contains songs that are relevant to the narcissistic experience and I’m sure you’ll be able to notice the uncanny references to what Prof Tudor has written and described. The Aussie hip hop ones relate to my view on Oz and Australian politics in general. For me, sharing these with you is a personal, intimate act and I hope you enjoy them as much as I do. As you seem to be a music aficionado, please listen to all with good headphones or speakers. Otherwise the full experience is lost. Most of the music I like is Bass heavy, low fi and not suited for small devices like smart phones and tablets.

        While I remember, I must confess, I HATE anything to do with that movie Frozen…. it embodies everything wrong with our world to me. I won’t bore you with my monologue….. I didn’t listen to the whole song.

        Enjoy dear ava101

        Disclosure- F for you

        Yaeji- Feel it out

        Janelle Monae- I like that

        The Herd-77%

        The Tongue- Australian Dreaming

        Rainbow Chan- Let me

        Jorga Smith-on my mind

        I have always loved and used music and dance as therapy, since childhood. Like you. I’m sure many out there have.

        I am embarrassed to identify as Australian these days, it’s that conservative and repressive here ATM. I think I’d fit in VERY well in Portugal!

        I hadn’t heard of the DJ you mentioned but my son has. I fantasise about having a rave with some of the peeps on this blog… what fun it would be…. and cathartic. Gen X much Tappi?? Ha!!

        Happy New Year ava101
        And anyone else reading.

        One final note: dear HG, I’m embarrased to say that it wasn’t until recently listening to some depeche mode on YouTube, that I noticed how many references to their lyrics your writings contain….
        eg…. ‘Never again is what you said the time before’…..
        I can’t listen to Exciter anymore, I’m sure you can guess why.

        I’m spending New Year’s Eve on my own. A first. Lots of fun so far!!!
        Love to you ava101
        Sawatdee pii mai thunk khon xx

  16. ifonlymommy says:

    You are so turned on by yourself right now aren’t you? Ha. Once you’ve been introduced, chased, seduced, abused, discarded, rebuilt and now wise to the patterns, you cannot miss the signs. Now, reaching this point may mean you make a choice to partake in some passionate experiences for research and/or pleasure. I *am* an adult. But never again will I be tricked into believing lies. I’m too wise to the game. Believe it or not I’m walking on air. I never thought I could feel so free. Haha. I also know that you think I’m full of shit but I’m not. I’d beat you at you game.

    1. Tamara Beij says:


  17. Melissa says:

    HG, may I ask? What if the emotional attachment is completely gone? What if we can’t stand the site of you anymore and hate any kind of interaction with you? That’s where I am with my husband. My 3 children are why I am still here. I know he will make my life and theirs hell (I knew already and your writings on divorce validated what I knew) I have told him we are done, but he acts as though the words never left my lips. He continues to pretend I’m happy with him. Most of your writings refer to US not being able to truly forget you, let go of you or move on without you. And, even if we do we still pine after you. (I feel its the opposite with him. It’s he who can’t let go). That is so not the case for me. I will never regret walking away from him. I can’t wait for my escape. I’ll never be free as we have the children. My heart or emotions shall NEVER want him back.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Your hatred will manifest as negative fuel and therefore we get something we want.

  18. Amanda Snapchat says:

    I think it helps a lot to understand that it is a competition. The narc wants you to never again be the same. You want to never again be with them. Who is strongest? Once you realize it is a competition you will play with your life. Never again will he enter. Never again. Then us, the empaths, win.
    Good writing HG. I think your wriuting helped me to see it is a competition. I have to fight therefore with my life. I WILL WIN.

    1. tigerchelle78 says:

      I used to see it as a competition too, and I know that kind of feeling, but that’s how they want you to see it, because then its like a game and they love a competition and game, because they can bring all sorts of things out of their toolkit to make it a worthy competition and for you to keep engaging, and playing. They want you to think you are going to win. But our emotional thinking will cause us to stumble at some point, because we will want to win.

      Think of it as if we are no longer in a game or competition anymore. We simply won’t and do not play. The competition was over the day we showed them they are no longer important enough for us to even consider.

      What competition?!

  19. J says:

    The absolute most sadistic thing i have ever read written about me. But i need to know…is he happier without me after our 24 years together? Because thinking he is…so makes me want to die.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      1. He does not feel happiness.
      2. He will give the appearance of being happy however as a consequence of the infatuation with another and to provoke you.

      1. J says:

        I screenshot your reply and made it my phone background to remind me of this. It has replaced the picture of him and i shall I forget what evil lurks. Thank you.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are welcome.

      2. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        It is all such a tough reality to handle…
        Even with nice hands… by the way.

        1. WhoCares says:

          Nice catch BKK! I didn’t notice HG’s pic change at first (I use the WP app and in the comments I can’t always see profile images…)

          HG – is that one of the busy hands that moderates this blog?!
          (And if so, may I ask what you’re holding?)

          1. HG Tudor says:

            One of them.

            The Controller of Lives.

          2. windstorm says:

            Ha, ha, HG! I don’t want to think how many lives are controlled and manipulated with it!

          3. WhoCares says:

            Thank-you for answering.

            “The Controller of Lives”…sounds so mysterious…is that like the ‘Shusher’ in the movie ‘Home’?

          4. HG Tudor says:

            I have not seen that film.

          5. WhoCares says:

            It was a joke…Captain Smek (played by Steve Martin) is ruler of the race of ‘Boov’ , by virtue of holding/wielding the “Shusher”…

      3. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        I am “speaking to” a fellow who has brachydactyly. He doesn’t know it, but he does. Just saying… I let it affect me.

        Wait a minute… Kind of would like to see the digit on the other side of that phone.

        1. MB says:

          BKK, you made me look that up. I compare Narcs to dragons and that certainly sounded like some kind of prehistoric, dinosaur, dragon type of affliction.

          1. WhoCares says:

            MB & BKK,

            I’m not sure about ‘brachydactyly’ but you can definitely see fine blond hairs on the back of the hand, catching the light, that would identify the person as a natural blond…

      4. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Thank you, WhoCares… That hand pretty much pulled me in as soon as he revealed.

        I think you are correct, WC. HG has shared, at some point, that he is blue-eyed (azure) and hinted at being blonde… or at least HAVING hair.

        And WS, I thought the same thing! Just how MANY lives have been affected by that little device and the big hand that holds it?

        Ha, MB… that condtion does sound like a pre-historic dinosaur. The guy that I know has a very normal hand, but his thumb is affected. It’s hard for me to not stare. But I try. I belive that the very attractive Megan Fox has the same condition as some of her images have been photoshopped… or maybe some jealous rival just claims such…?

        Regardless, HG appears to have very capable hands. 👐 But are we surprised?

        1. WhoCares says:

          BKK – may I ask, do you have a thing for hands? Cause I’ll be the first to say that I do – my narc’s hands were one of the first things that I noticed about him. Damn those beautiful hands.

      5. Kathy Mor says:

        Thank you HG. That brought me back into perspective

      6. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        I do, WhoCares! 👋
        Like you, I was drawn to my narcissist’s hands… and his voice.

        (Perhaps that was because during seduction, I was trying to focus on his fine qualities since there were so many others that fell short. 😄) I was a sucker for the deep-toned, well-spoken words that eloquently flowed from his mouth… until I realized that he was loaded with more than a handful of shit. 💩

        But his hands did get to me. They were a bit small but nice. He was good with his hands, so that definitely hit the spot. I bet, WhoCares, that the image of the beautiful mitts of your narcissist pops into your head at random. Happens to me often. Maybe it is because you and I have a bit of a fetish there?

        However, it might be for me, in part, because my own hands aren’t exactly the ones I’d like to be sporting. I feel as if they look like something an empathic T-Rex would be waving around… trying to save the world instead of eat it.

        I’m probably being too hard on myself though as I have had complements… but I wish I had longer fingers. Let’s just say that if I could trade paws with Kel, I am ready to make the switch.

        Still, I’m learning to try to be appreciative of my aging yet still-functioning body parts. So I remind myself that with these hands, I held my babies; I planted trees in my orchard that now bear fruit; I tiled my best friend’s bathroom and made her smile at the results. I was slow at it, but these hands painted a murual on a nursery wall that made a young mother glow.

        I might have the paws of a twelve-year-old, but they’ve shaken the hands of others who inspired me in ways I’ll never forget. I’ve held another’s dying hand, and with these same hands, I’ve saved lives.

        So, fist bump 👊 to all the ordinary yet capable hands out there. And for those of us who have a peculiar weakness for certain body parts, it’s A-OK. 👌

        1. WhoCares says:


          “I bet, WhoCares, that the image of the beautiful mitts of your narcissist pops into your head at random. Happens to me often. Maybe it is because you and I have a bit of a fetish there?”

          That’s an affirmative. In fact, if a man has fine, long fingers, meaty paws – or he bites his nails – I’m totally turned off, no matter how good-looking he is. Somewhere in between is nice…strong yet dexterous hands with the ability to do intricate tasks…

          And this is a lovely tribute to your own hands…

          “…I remind myself that with these hands, I held my babies; I planted trees in my orchard that now bear fruit; I tiled my best friend’s bathroom and made her smile at the results. I was slow at it, but these hands painted a murual on a nursery wall that made a young mother glow.

          I might have the paws of a twelve-year-old, but they’ve shaken the hands of others who inspired me in ways I’ll never forget. I’ve held another’s dying hand, and with these same hands, I’ve saved lives.”

          Yours sound like very capable (if a little underappreciated) hands that have genuinely and gently touched the lives of many.

      7. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        You are so sweet, WhoCares. ❤

        I can relate to your description of hand turn-offs! Hands represent so much about a person. Other than what comes from within, I rank hands as a very important assessment feature… right up there with an individual’s eyes.

        Do you think HG will ever give us that piece of the puzzle… a cropped shot of one of his baby-blues? Anyway, peepers and hands can definitely make or break the deal. I feel like such a voyeur, but I’d love to see a close-up picture of your narcissist’s hands. Do you have one?

        Your description of them made me so curious… but now I am starting to feel like Mrs. Roper.
        So just kidding on the picture.
        I should stop; it’s hard enough to heal from narcisstic abuse. I don’t want to be searching the Internet next for a Hand-Pervert Anonymous Support Group. 😓

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