A Stolen Love


Our victims have many things in common. Those shared traits are why they are chosen and why they become subjected to our incessant manipulations. The evidence of considerable empathic traits is of course one of the pre-requisites to gaining the attention of the narcissist. Exhibit a tendency to care, an ability to see another person’s point of view and a desire to help and you are issuing a neon-lit “Come and get me” to our kind. Your high-scoring on the empathic scale is naturally of considerable value to us. There is, however, another core principle that you all share which is irresistibly attractive to us. This is your devotion to love. You believe in love, you are advocates of the act of loving, you give love and (although not always) you want to be loved in return. Love is all you need, love conquers all and love is a many splendored thing. Love matters. You see that the world can and will be a better place if more love is exhibited. You love with a depth that is beyond many people. You truly give your all. Your love is perfect, selfless and based on a deep-seated notion that loving someone is the best and most wonderful thing one person can do for another. Such noble and laudable sentiments. Your status as a devotee to love means that you will strive to maintain that love once it has been gained. Love may give the appearance of having departed but you know, you believe, you always believe that it can be found and resurrected. That which has become dulled and blunted will be polished and returned to sharpness. That beautiful golden glow will shine again and you are the person to make it happen. You are the healer and the fixer. That which is broken shall be mended by the application of your burgeoning heart. You are a disciple of love and as such there is nothing you can do but act in accordance with the principles of loving. It is second nature to you. You are so full of love you must find ways of allowing it to manifest in the world and of course the pinnacle of doing so is to find that special someone. You want to find the one so that all of this marvellous love can find its true home. You are compelled to find your soul mate, your life partner and your best friend. Only then can your obligation to provide this amazing love be fulfilled and we thank you for being this way. On a daily basis we give thanks that you delicious and beautiful empathic individuals are committed to the promotion, promulgation and practice of love.

We come with the appearance of being that one special person who you can lay all your love upon. That person who will readily accept all of the love you have to offer and we will return it. Some of you would happily give this love in order to ensure there is an elated recipient and amazingly it would not matter to you whether that love was returned or not. Your sacrificial nature is stunning yet even more welcome. We are of course content to reflect your love in order to bring about yet more from you. We understand the transaction and we are happy to oblige because we are giving you absolutely nothing. We have come to take. We have descended on you ready to strip you of every ounce of love that you can provide. We will slurp it from you, nibble it from your straining frame and gulp it down as we devour your love. We will take it away from you time and time again. Do not be mistaken and think that you are providing this love based on a reality. You are doing so on a false premise. You have been conned into giving this love to us because we make you think we are the very thing you want when in reality we are anything but. We are fraudsters and we have come to take your love. If you knew what we truly were you would not offer your perfect love to us but we want it. We want it so much and we always take it. We make you unknown martyrs to the provision of love. We come without warning even though we appear with an explosion, all of it aimed to distract and misdirect so that we may pilfer your love. Our thieving knows no limits or bounds as we take what does not belong to us and use it for our own warped purposes. We keep on stealing your love until you are left spent and wretched, sat amidst the ruins of the relationship which once seemed impregnable and infinite and now is little more than ash streaked across blunted stone. We gorge on your love, gluttons that feed at the banqueting table as you slowly realise that the sumptuous love we appeared to return to you is in fact empty, a puff of air and without any substance. Yet this realisation comes far too late for by then the damage is done. Not only have we helped ourselves to all of your love we have, invariably ripped away and stolen your capacity for further love. Once you finally extricate yourself from our grip and eventually make sense of what has happened to you, even though it may take some considerable time, how often have your kind uttered the sentence,

“I do not think I will ever love any again, how can I after that?”

Words similar to such a question are regularly uttered by those who have been sucked into our malevolent maelstrom. We are the love thieves. We come and take the love to which we are not entitled but we are not done with that. Oh no. We rip out your heart in order to leave you so bereft that you can never love again. We steal your love. We are the love thieves of your past, your present and your future love.

682 thoughts on “A Stolen Love

  1. 70’s tunes says:

    This post sparked the lyric, “I want you, I need you, but there ain’t no way I’m ever going to love you…,” said the narc to the source. But, two out of three from a narc love thief is bad. 😉

    1. Getting There says:

      Meatloaf is awesome! I had a friend who used to want a guy to sing this to her.

    2. SMH says:

      Love your username, 70’s Tunes (because they are the best of course) and Meatloaf too!

  2. Narc noob says:

    Thanks for the heads up HG. Looks like I will need to trawl through all the comments to see more information regarding SM?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Indeed, saves me having to repeat myself.

    2. K says:

      Narc noob
      You may find this shortcut very helpful: control+F or command+F (mac)
      and type the keyword: Shieldmaiden in the search bar that appears on the upper right.

      1. Narc noob says:

        Thanks for the heads up K. 👍

        1. K says:

          My pleasure Narc noob.

    3. NarcAngel says:

      Narc Noob
      Welcome. You will learn much by reading the comments on all articles present and past. The blog has been active for some time so you can imagine many things have already been discussed and at length, so HG will refer you to those and to the books on occasion so he can attend to other things rather than rehash them. If you have questions about certain subjects try the search bar or ask commenters if they can direct you. If we can we will. Questions regarding The Shieldmaiden are peppered here and there but start with A Stolen Love and on HG’s Instagram account. Hope that helps.

      1. Narc noob says:

        Thanks NA, much obliged. Have been seeing a lot of your posts as well.

  3. Renarde says:

    Oh God – is this the thread to end all threads? I am seeing so many places where my name is tagged and much apologies if it appears I’m being ignorant – I’m not – I’m just missing them.

    To SMH

    On the question on murder. I do really believe that there is a inner hesitancy/lack of will to kill others. A moral imperative which is hardwired within us. It can be overridden IF we feel the justification is great enough.

    By the ‘prolls’, yes indeed I do mean the working classes as that is where the majority lie.

    Ruth Ellis utterly fascinates me because she was a woman who was both juxtaposed in her own time (platinum blonde, femme fatale etcs) but a woman out of her time (doing everything and anything she could to support herself and her family in a way society would frown upon).

    Ruth was a lady who took it on the chin with respect to her own punishment. She had indeed killed a man in cold blood. She took responsibility for her own actions and paid the ultimate price. She did kill him. The fact that she was driven to it and there were certainly accessories after the fact – certain males who were utterly complicit in the murder of Blakely – was not overlooked at the time by the ‘prolls’.

    I would argue that Ruth was provoked in extremis into taking the ultimate action. She just wanted the pain to end. Most women commit suicide. I wonder why she didn’t or moreover, how the men around her managed to manipulate her into being ‘the gun for hire’?

    Frankly; that is what she was.

    I wholeheartedly believe that when Ruth had that gun and shot Blakely, the balance of her mind was affected. It’s all on the web of course but in case I haven’t said it, ‘Dance with a Stranger’ is the best drama about it.

    Funnily enough, the actor playing Ruth is Miranda Richardson. I read many years later that it took her months to get over that role. I do not doubt it.

  4. Still spinning says:

    so, I’m trying to figure out if I’m crazy. I called a business to have something done and the guy came out for an estimate and then started texting me kind of asking me to go on a picnic. I rejected that -I was not interested. Couple months later he texts a hello- I am polite and go on with life. Just before the holidays he text again and I responded how I was tackling a task and it wasn’t going well. He said he was really good at that and just a few minutes away. I remember thinking wow he’s much cuter than I remember Lol. Next thing you know he’s helping me with all sorts of projects, in the course of two weeks we spent approximately nine days together he talked about the million coincidences and things we had in common he did use the word soulmate. Talked about his horrible horrible exes. He ‘knew’ the first time he saw me etc.. We had a drunken weekend together and it was heaven- Then he suddenly does not respond to my text for two days so I call and asked to stop by and talk face-to-face. We meet he tells me he struggles with depression And that he’s not into anything long term or capable of loving anyone cuz his exes were so evil. I am very confused and say to him YOU sought me out. Do you remember all the things you just said? Anyhow week or so later because we spent the evening together. But as his company was doing work on my house he would act like he didn’t even know who I was all day long . I asked him about it he got pretty mad. I felt like I was losing my mind. Then I wouldn’t see him physically for several weeks. And then a friend told me that he comes onto all his female clients. And when I asked him about that he told me i was freaking out -he had been trying to help me in all aspects of my life but I felt the need to tear him down so this would be the last text from him. ( he knows that text messaging is my communication of choice ) I said I’m sorry things didn’t work out between us but perhaps we could be friends. And during the long periods of not seeing him I kind of figured out that he was a narcissist. And I am an empath and that could destroy me. I have not heard from him again I made the mistake of casually texting him just things about life every couple of days. Now I realize. I’m an idiot. Or am I just crazy and clingy? Something I would have never considered myself to be. I thought perhaps I was imagining this because everyone else says that it goes on for years and years and is abusive. So I don’t know if I’m nuts

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I recommend you organise a consultation to obtain the best information to assist you.

      1. Renarde says:

        Do organise a consult with HG. He really is the best. Truly.

    2. Renarde says:

      Oh the old ”my exes are evil therefore I cannot commit shizzle’. Oldest line in the book.

      Invite him round, get him to check your upper fascias (gable end) then wobble his ladder. Fastest way to check if he’s aware or not. If he craps himself rapidly – he’s a middle. The rest of the schools will naturally fall into line.

      That’s £50 please 🙂

      P.S Don’t tell HG but I’m also in the game 😉

      1. Narc noob says:

        Ha ha that’s gold.

        I came here looking for info on SM but can’t see it yet.

        1. Renarde says:

          Well m’dear x As the other regulars can attest to – that thread ‘A Stolen Love’, is glitching like a Mo-Fo. For some reason, possibly the very emotive topic, we ALL piled on. So topics under discussion were;

          How BKK was going to book a ‘tour bus’ for us all to get on. Possibly with the intention of a ‘Grand US tour’. I state that NA is to be watched – cos she is a dirty fuck. (Mwah NA! x)

          I’m sure it’s this thread that HG slaps us all down and say’s ‘No fucking way, Too dangerous.’ Good avice. Which we all semi-ignored.

          We all ‘secretly’ plot against his good advice.

          How HG is a gentleman because he wears brown shoes.

          HG’s ‘Glowing Sith umbrella’. He seemed very proud of this, I note this with some concern.

          And lot’s of other stuff besides which became almost extraordinarily confusing. We were all tagging each other but unless you reply in train, which WP doesn’t allow yourself necessarily to do,- – well frankly, I can still see comments to me that I had utterly missed.

          There is, though, lot’s and lot’s about SM. You have have to wade through it all.

          Sorry. I blame the usual suspects TBK

          I myself am utterly blameless!

  5. BurntKrispyKeen says:

    Nunya Biz. my comment did make it down there. ⤵ It was very hard trying to remember what I wrote as I lost it twice. Sorry you to had to endure my hip-hop x 2 HG.

  6. BurntKrispyKeen says:

    HG, I am curious if you’ve ever experienced a crash to your WP site? I’m obviously not tech-savvy, so I’m curious as to what has happened or would happen? Have you ever lost comments on a thread?

    (How sad is this that I’m asking I.T. questions on V-Day?) Please don’t answer that last question. ☺

    1. HG Tudor says:


    2. NarcAngel says:

      Never mind WP. The Internet will crash the day he posts his photo.

      1. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        😄 Valid point, Narc Angel. And I do foresee that happening. I mean – he’s a greater narcissist. He is DYING to show us the goods.
        HG, haven’t you considered doing such while you’re still in your prime… with hair and all?

        1. SMH says:

          lol BKK. Hair and all. He could show us any picture and we wouldn’t know the difference. I always imagine him as a fat, short bald guy sitting at his basement computer pulling pictures off the internet and making everything up (kidding, HG).

          1. Renarde says:

            That’s too funny but I kinda think he isn’t? 😀

      2. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Good point, SMH! 😃
        That basement… he could still live with MatriNarc for all we know!

        I sense HG is itching to show us what he looks like. I wish I weren’t so eager to know, but I’d enjoy seeing what everyone on here looks like… so, natural curiosity – I assume? Even if HG fits your description, I must say that he does have good taste in shoes… from his hiking boots when he was swinging to A-ha’s Take on Me, to his Walking the Plank pair. Those footsteps sounded like my favorite Italian boots when I’m trotting along. HG, will you at least share if those pretty brown shoes were made in England or Italy… or wherever?

        1. HG Tudor says:


          1. SMH says:

            I never saw any of your shoes, HG. I feel cheated.

        2. SMH says:

          BKK, If we keep insisting he looks like a fat, greasy little troll he will show us what he looks like just to prove us wrong :-).

          1. Renarde says:

            I just know he will fall for that one! 🙂 x

          2. SMH says:

            here’s to hoping, Renarde!

      3. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Yep 😉 The Ole Reverse Psychology – I’m with you, SMH. There’s something to be said about a mysterious man, but I am such a visual person… just seeing a snippet is a reminder that everyone is real… that those affected by this disorder are living, breathing human beings. Seeing helps me put it all in perspective. (Damn, I wish I could play on his empathy. If only.)

      4. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Oh, and SMH … I found the shoes on Instagram. I have a thing for shoes, so I just had to ask as I could tell from the footsteps that those were quality shoes. Narc Angel and I have previously discussed putting together the pieces of the puzzle, so I would like to submit another request, Mr. Tudor. If you’ll honor such, how about a shot of the sock next time? I always said that a woman can tell plenty about a man by the necktie he wears. Socks are similar; I’m curious if you typically slide your feet into solid or print (patterned) socks? 🧦 A fan of both? Argyle perhaps? No socks at all? 👣
        (Do you recall when that was a big thing in the late eighties, early nineties… dress shoes sans the socks? It’s still a thing, actually.)
        On behalf of all curious cats, I appreciate your consideration regarding a missing piece to our puzzle. 🐈

        1. HG Tudor says:

          My socks are TM Lewin, Ralph Lauren or Hugo Boss – you may get to see some of them soon.

          1. BurntKrispyKeen says:


          2. nunya biz says:

            Oh no I have kind of a sock thing sometimes : /

          3. BurntKrispyKeen says:


          4. SMH says:

            HG, do you ever wear mismatched ones? I mean on purpose? Apparently it is a thing with the youth. My socks are all black mostly the same brand (no idea which) because I can’t be arsed to match them up. I never iron anything either. If it has to be ironed, it goes to the dry cleaners.

            I don’t think you’d like Marie Kondo, though I am guessing you are very neat and organized.

          5. HG Tudor says:

            Lord, no, SMH and neither by accident either!

          6. SMH says:

            lol. you crack me up sometimes. I can’t even imagine you wearing mismatched socks by accident. you don’t do anything by accident!

          7. HG Tudor says:

            Mind you, accidents do happen, just ask those at the bottom of the cliff!

          8. SMH says:

            But they’re all dead!

          9. Renarde says:

            Socks eh? 😉

        2. Renarde says:

          The shoes vid on IG. Yeah, some quaterwit said a ‘gentleman never wears brown shoes’. Durr….

          1. BurntKrispyKeen says:

            Hi, Renarde, fellow-brown-shoe-lover. 🙂 Even though I’ve worn so much black before that they used to call me Johnny Cash… I especially like brown shoes with jeans. That sound of the way the sole hit the ground, especially in the other video, sounds so similar to a pair of boots I have. When I perform a percussion on the sole, it has a hollow sound, so I can see how it had that high heel clickety-clack because I think the same thing when I wear my boots. Those Italians… they sure know how to make good shoes… amongst other things. 😊

          2. Renarde says:

            Indeed they do. I like pizza. Very much.

          3. Renarde says:

            LMAO! We teachers had a saying. Always wear hard soled shoes so the bastards know you are coming (not kids but the psychotic upper management). Let’s them know you are about to put some stick about.

      5. Renarde says:

        Ha ha! Yes it will!

  7. BurntKrispyKeen says:

    Yo, Nunyang Biz,
    I don’t know what it is.
    But I think they do
    have Anxiety too.

    But I’m 2 skeered 2 say
    if their worries are great.
    But let’s just see.
    Ask the H to the G?

    Any Ang–Zi–eh–Tee
    for homie HG?

    Pretty sure I just gave away that I’m a pasty white girl? Nunya Biz, I can’t say for sure if HG has anxiety like THE REST OF THE WORLD, but you all must have heard somewhere that they don’t, so maybe I should just give up on psychology and stick to rapping? But my typos have been horrible lately! Sorry about misspelling your name earlier. I was really only trying to say that I am your yin to your yang. 😄

    (Tried to post this to your comment below, but I think my anglo-rapping just about caused a crash.)

    1. nunya biz says:

      BKK sounds a little rap star too.
      I won’t try to rhyme it : D Oh thanks for making me laugh.

  8. Renarde says:

    You’re right BKK. The thread is glitching. I came on to reply to Windstorm and found your comment.

    I know I’d love the US. I’ve been twice. Here are some thoughts about the US.

    Things I love

    The people (kind, honest, straightforward and speak their minds)
    Getting a free Taco at Taco Bell when you buy a wrap (That blew my mind)
    The size of the lobsters available

    Things I didn’t like

    Turning right on a red (WTAF?)
    Not being able to walk anywhere because the distances are too great
    Sports bars – fucking weird

    Things that confused me

    Why has no-one got kettles? Why? How do Pot Noodles work?
    Paying more for an item because of tax at the till. How? How?
    Why people thought I was from Oz – those accents don’t even sound remotely alike! Are all non-Americans by default from Australia?

    You are very welcome to sit next to NA. I will sit opposite her so she can be kept under observation at all times.

    1. Mercy says:

      Renarde, this literally made me lol. I take the same route home from work everyday. Everyday I take a right at a certain intersection. On Friday they put a sign up that says “no right on red”. WTAF? Dirty bastards!!

      You don’t pay taxes when checking out?

      1. Renarde says:

        No we don’t Mercy. Price on the shelf is what you pay at the till.

      2. SMH says:

        Mercy, Taxes here are sky high (VAT at 20%) but they are built into the price. Just about everything is more expensive (at least in London) but no surprises at the till!

        1. Mercy says:

          20% would put a damper on shoe shopping…

    2. BurntKrispyKeen says:

      Ha! Great Post.
      Renarde, it is glitching like a cat that’s just been drenched. I wish I could blame the stress we’ve placed on this thread as to why my spell-check seems to prefer narcissist spelled as “narcassist.” Jeez, make one mistake and my phone is like a woman. It won’t forget anything!

      Or it c-o-u-l-d be my voice-to-text; sometimes it struggles to understand my Kentucky accent, so I hear ya, Renarde. See why I need this trip?

      Your observations on the US made me chuckle out loud. 😄 You have a seat on my party bus any time. And since you’ll be traveling the farthest, you get first dips on seating… wherever you like… as long as you keep NA in full view. Whew! It’s nice to know that we got that job covered. Thank you.

      As payment, we’ll ask WS to slide our party bus into the drive-thru at Taco Bell. We’ll ask the clerk to guess where you’re from? If the clerk say, “Renarde is from wherever Crocodile Dundee is from,” your Mexican feast will be on me. 🍅

      Looking forward to some day truly meeting y’all. ❤

      1. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        I hope that nobody answered my question because they think I’m a horrible mother for saying that. I promise that I love my kids with my whole heart. When I was young, and my parents popped my bottom, I swore that when I grew up, I would never lay a hard on my own children. Back when I went to school, the teachers could still paddle. I remember getting called to the front of the class by my teacher because I didn’t put a “period” at the end of a sentence. Actually, I did, but it was so light Mrs. Teacher couldn’t see it. She swatted my rump so hard that the kids laughed at my reaction. It was humiliating and I swore then, too, that I’d never spank my children.

        And I really much didn’t. But then there would be the occasional knee-jerk reaction when they did something dangerous… start to run into traffic or such. It was almost an instinct to swat at their little hand if it reached for the hot stove. Other than that, I could usually reason with their little minds.

        My youngest is a softy. He doesn’t wish to do anything wrong, so raising him has been a breeze. Sweetest. Kid. Ever.
        And while I love my now grown son just as much, that kid was a live-wire. He was precious, but he was a like trying to tame a wild Mustang. I remember when I bought him a fish tank when he was little. The black Molly had babies, or fry I think they’re called in the aquatic world. ❔ Anyway, I remember watching this Molly who had just given birth swim right up and eat one of the little boogers. Swallowed him whole. I was truly troubled by this. Seriously, it was awful to watch, and I couldn’t understand how any mother could eat her young? I understood wildlife and nature, but really? What kind of a mother could eat her young?

        Then he became a teenager and I understood. It was so bad there for a while, that had I known her back then, I would have considered offering him up to Mommypino for snacks.

        But we got through it, and I’m proud of the young man he is today. So it’s probably best we don’t talk about our childhood traumas. It might inspire me to go over to his house and bop him on the head just for what he put me through all those years ago.

    3. NarcAngel says:

      Just curious. What is it that is perceived I need to be watched/observed for?

      1. MB says:

        I wondered the same thing NA! You’ve got a “reputation” of being dangerous I suppose? I call it badass. I’m hoping some will rub off on me while it’s my turn to sit beside you. Between my lessons with K and the girls’ trip, there’s hope for me yet!

      2. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        “What is it that is perceived I need to be watched/observed for?” – Narc Angel

        That’s exactly what we can’t wait to find out!!!

      3. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Actually, Narc Angel… we were all “fighting” over who got to sit next to you on the party bus. For the record, I called first dibs. But being the empaths that we are, we decided to take turns. 😇

        Pretty sure what Renarde meant was… we know you’d be a helluva lot of fun. Being a bit of a rebel, we were all wondering … it doesn’t matter. Just appreciate that we all wanted a seat at the popular table. ☺

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Oh I laughed as I knew it was all in fun. I just wondered why Renarde (or anyone) felt the hairy eyeball on me was required. Was just teasing.

      4. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Well Narc Angel, hairy eyeballs or not, Renarde DOES have pretty good instincts.

        I was figuring (hoping) you knew it was all in fun. And I know it’s gonna be a long time before HG will let us all meet. But whether he hosts a Narcsite reunion, or we find ourselves actually embarking down The Bourbon Trail, I will be looking forward to seeing how you kick up those heels IRL.

        Pretty sure we were hoping you’d find a way for us all to get in trouble but without a permanent police record. That’s a fine balancing act you know, one best left for a stealthy catwoman. 🐱

        1. MB says:

          BKK and everybody, I just want to say that I’m not a bad guy. I wouldn’t hurt a fly. Just so everybody knows. I understand the rules and agree to them, but there is way more good than bad on the blog and in real life. It’s unfortunate that the rules put in place to protect us also create separation. That’s just the world we live in today unfortunately. Thank you for allowing our silliness, HG. I feel I have formed some enriching relationships here. If you get hit by a bus or decide to take down the blog, I will lose not only you, but my friends and that saddens me, so I will enjoy them while I have them!

          1. Sweetest Perfection says:

            MB, I feel the same way, although the “hit by a bus” outcome is too The Smith’s for me, I was thinking more of those weekends when HG disappears -and we know what he is doing- and I miss you all so much! We have to wait until the master opens the doors of the castle and gives us access to be able to communicate.

          2. MB says:

            SP, it was a metaphorical bus that hit HG. It could be a clincher, murder by an appliance, any number of things. I expressed myself and I was heard. That’s what counts. I don’t let fear control my life.

          3. Sweetest Perfection says:

            MB, noooo! It was a song reference! (one of my favorite songs ever btw): “and if a double decker bus/kills the both of us/ to die by your side, is such a heavenly way to die…” The Smiths.
            I was actually agreeing with you that things might happen, not necessarily tragic, and we don’t know if HG would be able to log in tomorrow so we totally depend on him to connect, that was all. But I was typing in bed so I probably didn’t express myself very well.

          4. MB says:

            SP, I don’t know that song but I will look it up now. I “got” that you were agreeing with me though. I didn’t expect to make friends here, but now that it’s happened, I have anxiety around y’all being taken away. And the ominous warning we received yesterday made me feel the need to express that I’m not a bad guy. And even though the friendships are online, I’ve “known” some of you long enough and had enough interaction to trust my own judgement of character. If I meet you in person and you kill me, HG can say I told you so. I am vigilant, but fear does not control me. Just because you are behind a screen doesn’t mean you are trying to hurt me any more than I am trying to hurt you from here behind mine. That’s it.

          5. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I would never hurt a fly (take this literally, I don’t even kill mosquitos). I love you MB, and I value all of you so much, and no, I don’t wanna lose this group either. I understand your anxiety, this is the only place where I can open up without fear of being judged or of not being understood. I remember the first time I read comments of other DE and I cried, it was the first time I didn’t feel like a filthy, disgusting human being (ironically that occurred at the same time I discovered I was a dirty empath ha!). So yes, I need everyone here and I hope HG is eternal and never shuts this down.

          6. MB says:

            SP, don’t hold my killing of mosquitoes against me! Damn blood suckers! I only kill the ones that light and begin their feasting though. I love you too and many others here. DEs unite! HG shall be immortal. (In accordance with his status as a god.)

            This all probably seems foreign to him. You see no need for anxiety around us losing touch do you, HG?

          7. HG Tudor says:

            Losing touch with me? Not going to happen. I am ever present, naturally!

          8. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Not to mention that sociopaths or psychopaths don’t feel anxiety, am I correct? It must be nice to live without that, I’m anxiety goddess.

      5. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        I share your sentiments, MB. ❤

      6. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        I understand what you are saying, Sweetest Perfection. When Persephoneascending first responded to my early rants, I cried like a baby. I had kept so much secret, so once I started posting, I couldn’t stop. I had no idea that HG was the Wizard Behind the Curtain posting my middle-of-the-night thoughts. I will never forget Perse for reaching out to me in the way that she did. It was the most cleansing experience to have finally felt “heard.”

        Like you ladies, I very much appreciate the opportunity to utilize HG’s platform. (Who say narcissists won’t share the stage? They don’t know HG Tudor!)
        There are some incredible people who interact here. So it’s such a dreadful thought… to think about something happening to HG… for many reasons as well as MB’s added insight of (had he not enlisted a contingency plan) where would we all end up? I am guilty of taking this for granted. That “this” will always be here… to pop in for my realignment, available to seek the wisdom I need to stay on course.

        So I feel bad that I’m a bit of a rule-breaker (part of my widening narcissistic streak) because I do understand The Rules, and I respect the reasons why they are set forth. It gives me comfort in knowing we have the protection of Big Daddy… because people really would prey upon us here if word got out that folks were meeting up and such.

        (Although I’m still disappointed that Pops put the squash on my trip, I do appreciate his protective nature. Besides, I think when we’re all old, a reunion is still a possibility.) I better stop, or else I’ll be ordered to the step. Maybe I just should hide out in my room. 🚪
        [But I hear ya sister, on the keys to the castle plan. Maybe once HG ties the knot with Shieldmaiden… when he tells us no, we can ask her next? It’s worked for my kids on a few occasions. 😟]

        I am being serious now. If you were to have children HG, with everything you’ve been through, would you be the type of father to give them a spanking?

        It’s such a controversial topic, so you may not wish to answer. I rarely spanked my own children, but my parents had no problem in warming my ass whenever they thought I stepped out of line.

      7. nunya biz says:

        “Not to mention that sociopaths or psychopaths don’t feel anxiety, am I correct? ”

        Today goes down as the day I was diagnosed as whatever the opposite of a sociopath/psychopath is.
        Oh wait, probably empathy, lol.
        I’ll just go with “has issues”.

      8. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Oh. My. Gosh. Another typo. I meant to say never lay a hand* on my children. Please do not read that as it came through.

      9. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        We have this thread so full, that the comments are going everywhere. I was referring to my post that got put on top… hand* on not hard on. Jeez. That could get Child Protective Services all worked up.

      10. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Hi, Nanyang Biz… I don’t know; I would think that they WOULD feel a certain amount of anxiety… through panic over loss of fuel, perhaps a bit of worry over being caught… but I guess some are robotic enough that it’s not much of a concern. ❓

        But a greater/elite like HG, I would guess that he experiences generalized anxiety, perhaps manifesting more as a *drive* to succeed as that understandable fear of something slipping through his fingers or being taken away stirs within his head. But I feel that they take that anxiety and utilize its energy to drive them even closer to acheiving success. (Actually., I think certain narcissists are excellent at utilizing many different energies to gain their needed fuel.)

        I suppose they like to “deny” feeling something so trivial as anxeity… an entity that us commoners also feel, but (whispering) I actually think they feel tons of anxiety. Shhh. Please don’t tell I said so.

        You made me laugh out loud, Nanyang Biz, as I agree … we’ll have whatever they’re NOT having!
        (Now I sit here, hunkered down, waiting for the dispute as I remove all of my jewelry.

      11. nunya biz says:

        BKK, you are cracking me up with your posts this morning. Which is very good because I woke up cranky and it is helping.

        I wondered if narcissists experience anxiety and I would think they do and that’s part of why they act out sometimes? And I experience it and it causes reactions so I never thought anxiety negates the possibility of me being an N per se. But I do have that worry that I’ve made a mistake or done something wrong that I assume that N’s have less or none? I want to go with less.
        But socio/psychopath? I don’t think they have much or any anxiety right?

        I’m changing my name to “Nanyang Biz”, it sounds like a rap star.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Well we know at the very least that HG and his kind are safe from the effects of emotional eating.

      12. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Ha! So, Narc Angel, you don’t think HG spent Valentine’s at home with a glass of milk and a bag of Oreos?

      13. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Yo, Nunyang Biz,
        I don’t know what it is.
        But I think they do
        have Anxiety too.

        But I’m 2 skeered 2 say
        if their worries are great.
        But if he’d say we’d see…

        Any Ang-zi-it-tee
        for homie HG?

        Did I just give away that I’m a pasty white girl? Nunya Biz, I can’t say for sure if HG has anxiety like THE REST OF THE WORLD, but you all must have heard somewhere that they don’t, so maybe I should just give up on psychology and stick to rapping? But my typos have been horrible lately! Sorry about misspelling your name. I was only trying to say that I am your yin to your yang. 😄

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Haha. Round of applause everyone for D.J Jazzy Donut.

      14. nunya biz says:

        Just got done with some more emotional eating. Which is somewhat counter-balanced by the emotional exercising, which is apparently also a thing.

      15. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Oh, Nunya Biz… I understand emotional eating. It had to be an empath who planted the first cacao bean. I’ve relied on chocolate so many times, but it’s good that you are also releasing some of those exercise endorphins. Now, if I could just get as addicted to exercise as I am chocolate! But I do think it helps my mood to hit the gym, so I do … even though Narc Angel just mentioning a donut makes me want one. 🍩
        So while we on the subject, Narc Angel, how is it HG is maintaining his build with all that delicious looking food he and SM are eating?

        1. nunya biz says:

          Ya, BKK, I was just having a conversation with the stock boy about the taffy I usually buy, it’s marked down to get rid of it and I told him that I like to have it because I can chew on it for awhile when I want candy and he made a comment that indicated that he thought I was eating the taffy INSTEAD of chocolate and was like


          No, with chocolate, with.

          But yeah I need the gym for sure, better for my mood than chocolate even.

      16. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Nunya Biz … 😄 on your story.
        I like taffy as well… Banana Laffy Taffy is hard to beat, but the cinnamon and licorice salt water taffy is nice, too. Oh, and peppermint and orange & cream taffy or … well, sometimes a girl just needs a little sugar.

        1. MB says:

          BKK, I don’t understand this taffy thing. This is something we DO NOT have in common. Banana Laffy Taffy 🤮 Give me chocolate girl!

          1. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I’m a chocolate person too, even if I hardly ever eat anything sweet. This reminds me of a time I was in London and the narc too and I ended up crying profusely because of the way he treated me. My best friend didn’t say a thing, she just put two Cadbury chocolate bars in front of me and called it a day. I love Cadbury’s.

          2. BurntKrispyKeen says:

            That made me smile, Sweetest Perfection. No words needed with a true friend.
            Her sweet gesture was … well, perfection. 🙂
            I enjoy the creaminess of Cadbury, but I love many brands of chocolate. It’s a gift from above.

          3. BurntKrispyKeen says:

            Well, it is good to have some diversity within our club, MB. But I, too, am a fellow chocolate lover! I prefer dark chocolate over milk chocolate, but I will not discriminate on the shade; I find it all delightful. 😋 On our way to NYC, we’ll have to stop off in Chicago at the Ghirardelli Ice Cream shop and get a sea salt caramel sundae or a hot fudge sundae. 🍧
            That’ll make us forget about our narcissists … or at least give us 30 minutes of pure joy.

          4. MB says:

            BKK, I also prefer dark chocolate. More yum for the calories. Dark chocolate is a health food IMO. As is red wine! This trip just gets more fun by the day. 😊

          5. SMH says:

            Well, MB, BKK, etc, I didn’t think I’d be in NYC in April but it happens that I have a job interview and will be flying in from London. HG, shall I look for you on the plane? Virgin Upper Class? Wear something distinctive! Please the rest of you come to JFK to greet us with balloons and chocolates! We’ll hire a Mercedes and I’ll drive us to midtown for our Narcsite reunion!

          6. MB says:

            SMH, that sounds like a splendid plan as long as I get a turn behind the wheel of the Mercedes too. You handle the tricky bits.

            We could have balloons and chocolates and glittery posters with “HG Tudor” in lights and the man would walk right on by. We’d never even know it was him. So I’ll start working on my “SMH” sign instead.

          7. SMH says:

            Cracking me up, MB. HG will just have to miss out.

      17. nunya biz says:

        I think that pineapple would be a good taffy flavor.

        1. BurntKrispyKeen says:

          Nunya Biz, that’s an interesting flavor for taffy. I enjoy fresh pineapple so I’d be willing to give that a try.🍍
          Earlier today, I popped into Rural King to check on their vegetable garden seeds. I intentionally walked by their salt water taffy on the way. I picked up a bag of nothing but banana. I told myself, “Girl, put it down; you don’t need it!” So I placed the bag back on the shelf. I always squeeze a few pieces through the plastic. A few seemed too hard, so that helped me to resist temptation. Besides, if I ever run into my narc again, I want to have a moment like I’m wishing for Sweetest Perfection… when she attends that work event and glides past her narc revealing how well she can pull off a Kentucky Bourbon Trail outfit. 😛😘
          But I did buy some dark chocolate covered almonds. 😣 So maybe it will be awhile before I have to bump into the ole boy. 😳
          How are things progressing, Nunya Biz with your decisions regarding your husband?

    4. windstorm says:

      Turning right on red is on your not like list?!? That’s the best advancement in traffic laws in my lifetime!

      1. HG Tudor says:

        I concur. It also irks me when there is a sign “no right turn on red” – that’s total pants.

        1. MB says:

          So that was YOU blowing your horn at me! Did you see me frantically pointing to the sign? That’s why I wasn’t turning!

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Ha ha – keep on trucking MB!

        2. SMH says:

          No right on red anywhere in NYC, just in case you go and decide you want to drive around. Pedestrians there own the crosswalks (and often get hit by cars anyway).

          1. HG Tudor says:

            I’m obliged for that information. I would advise readers to stay off the crosswalks (pedestrian crossings) during April.

          2. MB says:

            I wouldn’t drive in NYC for any man’s money! Besides, I’ve heard the cabs are quite the adventure. I would opt for that. I’ve never been there but would like to go. Nobody I know wants to go with. BKK? What do you think? After the KBT? Next trip is NYC?

          3. SMH says:

            MB, You can visit me in NYC anytime! Plus it’s a really fun place to drive!

          4. MB says:

            SMH, you are the first person ever to say to me that driving in NYC is fun! It WOULD be nice to have a local tour guide.

          5. SMH says:

            You’re going to be tootling around NYC in a car in April? It’s my favorite place to drive! I love it! If you time the lights correctly, you can make it all the way up any of the avenues without stopping. But NYC drivers are very aggressive and quick, and they lean on their horns, so be careful.

        3. Narc noob says:

          “That’s total pants” ha ha, never heard that expression before.


      2. Lou says:

        I agree with you, WS.

      3. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        HG, besides our traffic laws, what was one of the things you most enjoyed during your visit to my country?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          The Tampa area travel updates at 5am.

      4. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Ah HG, a fan of the bay. Based on your Gravatar, I’m not surprised that The Sunshine State speaks to you. 🌞 Who doesn’t love the beach, but could you tolerate Disney World? Ever been?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          No Disney World for me although I did sort of embrace it when I tracked down the Star Wars Trading Post and picked up some gifts. I was particularly pleased with my sith umbrella which lit up red along the shaft of the umbrella.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            Well who doesn’t love a shaft all lit up and red?

          2. HG Tudor says:

            30 minutes later than I thought you would be with that response!

          3. NarcAngel says:


            That’s because for 30 minutes I was distracted by a shaft all lit up and red.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            Ha ha, touche!

      5. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Tudor/Narc Angel… you two are cracking me up. 😂 I needed that laugh… and visual.

      6. Renarde says:

        Jesus. HG and his shaft of the Sith (glowing). What a treat the SM has in store.

        Will she be allowed to touch it HG?

      7. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        MB, I love NYC, so YES… whenever the party bus gets cleared for takeoff, we can go there too. You’d love it – so much to do! I have driven in NYC, and what SMH is saying about the pedestrians is accurate. As soon as you try to advance your vehicle once the light turns green, swarms of people are still walking.

        Of course, it’s worse in certain areas, but the oblivious pedestrians make it MB, I love NYC, so YES… whenever the party bus gets cleared for takeoff, we can go there too. You’d love it – so much to do! I have driven in NYC, and what SMH is saying about the pedestrians is accurate. As soon as you try to advance your vehicle once the light turns green, swarms of people are still walking.

        Of course, it’s worse in certain areas, but the oblivious pedestrians make itnot coming, we’ll need a third angel. Whaddya say, Charlie?
        I vote SMH since she could show us the ropes; plus can you imagine, MB, the conversations that would come from the front section with SMH riding shotgun?!

        1. MB says:

          BKK, I’m always up for a fun adventure! And don’t worry, I have a lifetime supply of sedatives if necessary for your driving. I would love to visit NYC, but that’s one place I don’t want to go alone. I would probably end up in a bad neighborhood and trust the first guy to offer directions straight to his torture chamber of doom! Maybe we’ll be cleared for takeoff in April. Dinner with HG for one of our evenings? Epic!

          Ps. BKK, I don’t know what you’re on…but can I get some when we board the bus?

      8. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        OK. That was weird.
        It duplicated my comment and left part of it out.

      9. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        What I was trying to say MB…
        The driving there can get crazy. My dad used to tell me that I drive my car like a NYC Taxi cab. 🚕 So if Windstorm ever backs out on driving responsibilities, and I have to behind the wheel… well, we might have to stop beforehand and get you a craft beer … with a sedative.
        🍺 + 🍬
        I don’t know how that previous comment got so jacked up, but I was hoping that since HG is visiting in April, he’d let us ride in the backseat? We could map out the city for our Big Apple trip while he conducts whatever ominous business Greaters … and then thinking about THAT REALLY got my curiosity stirred so… I was asking if the batmobile came in a four-seat family version? 😈😇😇😇 I was trying to say that if Shieldmaiden couldn’t make it, we’d need a fourth Angel. And that’s when I thought of SMH riding shotgun… so we’d be entertained by her and HG’s debating. “Whaddya say Charlie” was just a question to Big Daddy? But.. my comment got ripped to shreds making its way through Cyber Space. It just doesn’t read the way it was originally supposed to, so I’m gonna sulk into a bit of a silent treatment and give this thread a rest… because “Stolen Love” has got to be just about ready to pop. 💥
        (But one more thing: I’m so old, MB, that we used to play Charlie’s Angels on the playground during recess at school. Everybody wanted to be Farrah. I really don’t understand how blondes have all the fun? But I do think we’d make a good Kelly & Sabrina. Just saying.)

        1. windstorm says:

          Made me laugh! I’M So old, my playground years were long gone before Charlie’s Angels made an appearance!

          1. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Windstorm, now that you mention, did it ever occur to you guys that HG is like Charlie, whose face we’ll never see, and we are his empath angels?

          2. windstorm says:

            Sweetest Perfection
            Ha, ha! I was and am a feminist. I never watched Charlie’s Angels. I found it offensive. You all can be HG’s angels – I’ll pass 😄

          3. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Windstorm, I am a very strong feminist too. By the time the show was on TV, however, I was very little. All I remember about the show is that there are three beautiful women (or was it 4?) who obey and adore some dude whom they have never seen, so …

          4. windstorm says:

            There’s just something about the words “obey and adore”…..

          5. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Hahaha windstorm, I know, but in a way, we do!

          6. NarcAngel says:

            Exactly with the women obeying and adoring Charlie. It’s been in our face all along and conditioning us to believe it’s not only normal but noble lol.

          7. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Imagine that! Normal, noble, and 55!

          8. WhoCares says:

            Sweetest Perfection,

            Re: Charlie’s Angels and this…

            “women…who obey and adore some dude whom they have never seen, so…”

            This made me giggle this morning, thank-you.

          9. MB says:

            SP, and then he posts a call to arms! Priceless!

          10. Sweetest Perfection says:

            MB, I did write a new review, can you believe? I’m so easy.

        2. SMH says:

          BKK, I’m not riding shotgun. No way. If I am in a car with HG, I am in the driver’s seat, especially in NYC!

      10. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Oh, my Goodness, MB… did you notice my Freudian slip? I said FOURTH angel.
        I had this:
        But instead of saying we’d need a third angel, I said fourth.
        I’m too afraid to say what I think that might mean? Awww. 🐇

      11. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Ha! MB, I promise that I wasn’t talking really fast over and over in a manic fit in that duplicated text above. I stand firm that we have this thread so full that there’s a glitch in the system… OR, it could be that I hit copy and paste and screwed up the post. ❔ But I promise I’m not on anything! 😉 (Just the love of a narc-free life. 💃) Though as many times as I have spelt Nunya Biz’s name wrong, I can see how one might question my soberness.
        But YES … Doesn’t dinner in NYC sound lovely!? We’ll stick together, so if anyone does take you to the torture chamber, they’ll have two karate-chopping Angels to worry about. 👠💪 But just in case Charlie gets busy popping in and out New York Catholic Churches… if he fails to send in backup, go ahead and bring some extra sedatives so that we can numb ourselves until we feel no pain.
        Who says empaths don’t have contingency plans!

        1. MB says:

          BKK, you’re a riot!

      12. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        I agree, Sweetest Perfection; whether we want to admit it or not, there are some eerrie similarities. It will crack me up if HG’s real name is Charles.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          It is not.

          1. K says:

            Is your real name Harry?

          2. HG Tudor says:


          3. SMH says:

            Henry? Maybe Henry the Eighth?

          4. Renarde says:

            I always thought Henry too. I’m just trying to work out what the G stands for unless it’s God of course!

          5. SMH says:

            Likely Great or Greater, Renarde, though a quick Google search shows me that Henry IV of France (House of Bourbon rather than English House of Tudor) was actually the Good King or Henry the Great. I suspect HG is Henry the Greater (narcissist) Tudor.

          6. FYC says:

            I believe HG said in a previous post comment that it stands for His Greatness. Since there are approximately 6000 living decedents of the House of Tudor, I wonder if HG is of that lineage?

      13. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Windstorm, we also had two boys in our class that called themselves Starsky and Hutch. Would you be willing to play Huggy Bear? (Kidding – but have you ever worn one of those 1970’s furry Sonny Bono vests? Confession: I own one. 😮)
        I miss all of those corny 1970’s shows. As a kid, I also watched Love Boat; Marcus Welby, MD; Fantasy Island; Planet of the Apes; Get Smart; Man from U.N.C.L.E.; Wonder Woman; Bewitched; Emergency and more, but I had the biggest crush on The Six Million Dollar Man. (Lee Majors is holding up well.)
        See – we’ll eventually find a role for everyone. 😄
        I’ll have to look and see if all those shows are from the same network, as only one of the three channels came in crystal clear. I tended to watch that station more, when I wasn’t being made to work in the garden or tend to the hogs… or whatever.
        Thanks to everyone for allowing me to indulge in a bit of silliness; I’ll take any narc-distraction that I can get.

        1. windstorm says:

          Never watched Starsky n Hutch. And nope. Don’t even remember furry vests. Of the programs you mentioned, I only watched Bewitched and Get Smart. I only really liked science fiction, fantasy or cartoons. Absolutely nothing remotely like real life. I was a big Bugs Bunny and Star Trek fan.

      14. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Ms. Windstorm, I typed “spelt” instead of “spelled.” Would that get me kicked out of an American English class? I think the Brits are rubbing off on me.

        1. windstorm says:

          Ha, ha! Well I was a science teacher, but I’d say in middle school, language arts teachers would probably just be happy to be able to read your handwriting!

      15. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Well, Windstorm, who doesn’t like The Bugs and Captain Kirk? I watched those shows too. I might now have a better idea of the type of gentleman you’re drawn to, because if you think about it, those two characters have plenty of similarities. ☺ (P.S. You made me LOL on the handwriting comment. I’d say there’s a lot of truth in that.)

        SMH, I hear your concerns, and I have no doubt that you’d be skilled-behind-the-wheel, especially considering all of your practiced NYC driving. HG, what would it take to sweet talk a Greater into the passenger seat? If MB and I remain in the backseat and use our indoor voices… keeping any giggling to a minimal roar, would you be able to allow a seasoned debater drive you through her city?

        I saw on Instagram that you waste little time in getting from point A to point B, so is that control hard to relinquish? HG, do you typically always have to be the one behind the wheel?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I usually am, but I have no objection to being driven from time to time. Allows me to have my hands free.

          1. MB says:

            What’s this?!? “Speak your brains!” 😂

            I just want to drive the Mercedes! Fast! You can be in the passenger seat if you want, HG. But your hands might not be free. Probably be hanging on white knuckling.

          2. windstorm says:

            But I never cared for Captain Kirk. I was way more drawn to Mister Spock and the Vulcans.
            But Bugs Bunny – yes, he was a big favorite.

          3. Renarde says:

            Good gracious HG! Whatever for???

          4. BurntKrispyKeen says:

            Renarde, I know what you meant above about this thread! I kept trying to scroll down the other day, just to find out if someone had asked what activity HG had in mind for those free-hands of his? But my phone was having trouble downloading the comments. One of MB’s posts was literally showing up one letter per line, so I couldn’t make it down this far. The curiosity was hard on this cat. The thread is working better now, but I don’t see an answer to your question. But like Narc Angel said, we’re a patient bunch. 😳

            MB, I’ll be happy to stay in the backseat while you and SMH trade spaces. I mean… how can it not be a sign that this trip is destiny since SMH will now be in NYC in April? Plus, I already have vacation days scheduled off work in April, for KY Spring Break. So, count me in; I can be there. 😁

            Windstorm, I like Spock as well. I remember when Leonard Nimoy passed away a few years back. It was sad, as I always thought of him as a cool guy in a weird kind of way. He had more talents than most people realized.
            I never could get my fingers to do the Vulcan Salute. (But I can’t roll my tongue either. So I’m thinking that there must be some special finger-split-gene that I lack.)
            HG, when your hands are free from the steering wheel, are you able to throw up a proper Vulcan salutation?

          5. HG Tudor says:

            No nor can I roll my tongue.

          6. SMH says:

            BKK, I cannot see where to respond to your comment about your Kentucky vacation but I can read the comment and I am in. Hope MB is too. HG, could you start a special thread called Trip to the Big Apple? 🙂

          7. BurntKrispyKeen says:

            HG Tudor – no Vulcan-Finger-Split nor a tongue roller, huh?
            Yep – I just KNEW we were related! (Now I feel all icky for some of my inner thoughts that I will now keep private. 🥺)
            My sister completed a 23 and Me DNA test. It broke down in order of something like:
            Native American
            Yes – we are mutts; pretty sure I’m diluted down enough that my thoughts won’t get me arrested. But they also claim that all blue-eyed folks have a common ancestor. Now that there is unsettling enough for me!

            I remember in grade school all of my baffled friends trying to “teach” me to roll my tongue. I was so frustrated that I went home and practiced. I truly thought something was wrong with me… until high school, when our Psychology teacher taught us that there’s a gene involved. 😛 I asked for apologies on the spot. (Pretty sure I have the narci-gene, too.) I just KNEW there was a reason I could easily connect with your writings, HG … Ole Cuz. 😊

            If this puts me on the Tudor Christmas list: I wear a size US 7 shoe, collect hand-woven baskets, love anything chocolate… can always use a new garden tool… but I would be just as appreciative of a new Tudor paperback. 📚 And I’ll have no problem sitting next to MatriNarc at a formal dinner. I can even help to keep any odd uncles entertained/occupied at our upcoming family gathering. 😇 (I’m just thankful that I didn’t get the hairy legs.)

          8. BurntKrispyKeen says:

            Hi, SMH … I have so many trips planned for us! We’re even going to go yard-sale-ing in Canada. Just stay tuned for the itinerary. I’m thinking that we might as well take the Mercedes/batmobile north after our Big Apple trip, although we’ll need to hitch a trailer if NA’s collector of mementos has as much stuff as I’m hoping. I’m not above digging through some junk to find a treasure.

            We just have to wait for the rules to be revised. Since I’m related to HG, perhaps he’ll make the provision soon enough that I’m not folding up my walker and getting a boost on my diapered rear, just to plop into one of those tiny carriages… because a horse-drawn ride through Central Park sure would be nice for a bunch of overworked empaths.
            I don’t want to give a new definition to the “jiggle” of Charlie’s Angels, so I sure hope this happens while I still have SOME control over my bits and pieces. 👵

          9. BurntKrispyKeen says:

            Oh… and it’s not that I don’t l-o-v-e hairy legs. 💟 I do, actually. I just don’t want to have to pack a separate bag of razors, as I’m already afraid that I might start to get those unwanted chin hairs or something by the time we all get to travel. Since I’m trip-coordinator, I don’t need anything else to worry about.

            Now, you pull off the hairy legs well, HG … not that I’m saying so in an incestuous way.
            Just a simple observation.
            Can’t help but notice.
            You do kinda have them out there, for everyone to see.
            I’d have to type with one eye closed not to look.

            Besides, we’d have to be distant cousins, right?

          10. BurntKrispyKeen says:

            One more thing… Modern science now states that genetics aren’t entirely responsible for tongue-rolling as once believed. But I personally have never been able to “learn” to do it… although I can roll my r’s when I practice my pobre español. 🤪
            I contend that there’s nothing a flat tongue can’t do as well as a rolled tongue. I will stop it there, Renarde, as I know this is a family show.

          11. BurntKrispyKeen says:

            Por favor disculpeme, mi español es muy pobre. (I can say that.)

  9. BurntKrispyKeen says:

    Mommypino, I thought about listing several macro-movers who show empathic traits while exhibiting strong leadership skills, but like you implied, we can’t say for certain the true nature of any of these public leaders. Narcasism is best understood up close and personal. We are all too aware of how they conduct themselves under a well-orchestrated persona. Like K says, never forget the facade.

    So I assumed that my list of strong empathic leaders would be demolished as HG, or someone, would proclaim, “No, that highly successful commander plays for MY team – Sorry, you empaths can’t claim ’em.” And it’s true, Renarde – most successful leaders showcase strong narcissistic characteristics. But for me, the best leaders showcase both… specific qualities of narcissism that drives success balanced by the genuine compassion of an empathic soul.
    They do exist, up and down the ladder.

    I think Windstorm brings up a valid point in that perspectives viewed from those living in the UK and US vary a bit. How neat, SMH, that you get to look from both angles! Being a freedom-loving American has certainly skewed my perception in my adamant belief that “everyone” is capable. I’m sure, Renarde, that much of my “hope-loving-language” is because of just that. Still, I enjoyed the ways in how you challenged me. Trust me – freedom of speech is what I thrive on… greatly value, so I love it when intelligent women express themselves.

    I have grown up with success stories all around me. My generation teethed on that stuff. Freedom, the pursuit of happines… that American dream was bred into us. At one of my companies/clients, their president began his career sweeping the floors there. He now makes over $800,000 a year running the local operation. Of course, there are many CEOs/leaders making millions who began their careers in a similar fashion. Making tough decisions along the way, from Rags to Ritches. No way do I believe that they are all narcassists.

    Renarde, since my now lost-in-the-mix facetious comments started this particular debate… by my trying to defend SMH’s stance in her Tudor debate… I’m thinking we already have this thread pretty full. It’s starting to glitch on me and I’ve “lost” a few of my comments in cyberspace.

    So I say that we fuck this shit sky high and pause for a moment… to allow me to invite y’all over for an outing on The Kentucky Bourbon Trail. By the time we get to the last distillery, we’ll all be in agreement over… somethin’ at least.

    If the wise Windstorm doesn’t drink, perhaps she can be our DD with K riding shotgun to help WS with driving directions? We can call K “Alexa” to help conceal her identity. With this many ladies, I can hear us now, “Alexa, where is the nearest restroom?”

    So what do you say Foxy Renarde? I think you’d like it over here. Twilight, you in? SMH can entertain us with more debate ideas. Besides, we need an excuse to celebrate WhoCares new adventure.

    If you ladies will be okay with it, we can ask Mommypino to bring the snacks. I like pork rinds! (And the very best egg rolls I have ever eaten were made by a co-worker of mine who grew up in the Phillipines. I have no doubt that Momny-P will bring delicious, protein-filled treats. ☺

    We’ll have to watch MB though, I bet she can really sprinkle that glitter once she’s had a shot or two of the good stuff. I’ll just bring a broom. The clean-up will be worth it to see her cute-little-self in action.

    So what do y’all say? Everyone else is invited too, but I get to sit next to Narc Angel, okay?

    1. MB says:

      BKK, yasss I’m in! But you’ll have to take turns with me sitting beside Narc Angel. I looked it up. 14 Distilleries in 8 days starting in Louisville. Sounds like a whole bunch of fun! I’m not too far away and I’m always down for a good road trip with some wild n crazy empaths!

      1. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        😄 It’s a deal, MB.
        We’ll have to have Renarde bring back a bottle for HG to commemorate his roll in inspiring our girls’ trip.

        And I do believe that we WILL meet… that at some point, society will feel free enough to discuss narcissism so that the need to conceal our identities becomes insignificant.

        I see in our future that HG will someday have Narcsite reunions, and we’ll all get to meet and greet and talk and hug… with a time limit on hugs for HG. 🕛

        Good times are ahead, MB. 🎉

    2. WhoCares says:

      BKK – Hell yeah! To all of that.

      And ‘bourbon trail’? Perfect.

      Cause after reading Renarde’s comment about sports bars – I was like, yes.They are weird. We have them in Canada too – and they are fucking weird.

      Plus, I haven’t been to a decent bar (of any variety) in a dog’s age!

      1. MB says:

        WC & Renard, How are Sports Bars weird? I guess I drank the koolaid (rather the blue cheese dressing) because those are my hunting grounds for the best wings and beer! You can fuck the sports sky high though.

        1. WhoCares says:

          Hahaha MB,

          It doesn’t have to be bourbon – I’d happily join you for wings and beer (as long as it’s not that watered down version of what Americans call beer – I know, I know – those are fighting words, but it is true!)

          As for Sports Bars (I agree with you on the sports part), I don’t know why Renarde finds them weird but they are. I mean what are they trying to be – a bar? …A communal sports watching lounge? …A family restaurant? Some of them try to be all three while being entirely devoid of any warmth or character.

          The last two good bar experiences that I’ve have had were years ago…a small Irish pub in Toronto that was soon to close (like in the week that my ex and I found it) which had an intimate atmosphere and a rich, beautiful old wood interior.

          And the other one was a gay bar on Drag Night – I’m heterosexual but I went with my cousin who had co-workers who frequented this particular bar. I had the best time – and I didn’t even drink! I was pregnant at the time (only I had not yet told my cousin) but still really enjoyed it because I could relax and dance and not feel ‘targeted’ lol. Everyone there just wanted to have fun…

          My cousin thought it was a bit odd that I didn’t want to drink that night – but I covered by saying that I wanted to have my first gay bar experience sober!

          1. MB says:

            WC, I’m not fond of watered down American beer either 🤮. It does need to be cold though and not too hoppy. Bitter beer isn’t my thing. I’ve heard (maybe incorrectly) that Germans like their beer room temperature. I won’t knock it til I’ve tried it though. We have The. Best. Beer (IMO) brewed not too far from where I live. The brewmaster lived and studied with beer makers in Germany. Unfiltered, unpasteurized, no preservatives Bavarian Lager. It can’t be distributed very far because it has to stay refrigerated. It’s soooo good. The health food of beers. They have a tour of the brewery once a week with all you can drink for an hour afterwards. Red Oak is da bomb! Oh, and I like the flats best. If you like the drumettes better, you’re welcome to them. If not, we’ll order all flats with extra blue cheese!

            BKK, see if there’s gay bar we can include in our tour. That sounded like fun.

          2. WhoCares says:


            Your favourite Bavarian Lager sounds like a perfect combination of old school beer-making and the modern trend of craft beer-making!

            I’m finding myself getting soooo thirsty suddenly….

            I’m not fussy on flats vs. drumettes – so there will be plenty of each to go around…I’m not a vegetarian but I’m only good for a few wings with a generous helping of fresh carrot and celery sticks with blue cheese dip – in addition to the lager! (Have to save calories somewhere – ha!)

            And as for choice of bar – I’d bet it would be a blast regardless of type: sports bar, gay bar…mosh pit – whatever – it would be fun as long as it’s in the company of you gals!!!

          3. MB says:

            WC, you would not believe how good it is! The brewmaster explains on the tour how it is really good for you, too! All kinds of yummy active cultures. And, just so you know, all food and drink is zero calories on the girls trip! It’s a law!

      2. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        I know, WhoCares…. Renarde’s post made me laugh out loud. I was at Applebee’s a bit late one night, trying to grab a meal with my son. They had the music cranked up while families were still trying to dine. The patrons at the bar were looking pretty sparse, yet there were several TVs running the sports highlights from earlier games.

        The music was so loud; I gently asked our server if she could turn it down? She said that after nine, they’re supposed to play it at a high volume to help create more of a bar atmosphere. Jeez! You can’t be a family restaurant, sports bar and a disco all crammed into the same small space!

        Still, I have been known to watch a few games at a local sports bar, so what can I say?

        Correct me if I’m wrong WhoCares, but were you referring to “decent/fun” bars in general or did I hear you actually say that you’re past due for a night out to paint the town red? 🎯 If so, I think you might have just stumbled upon a perfect painting partner. 😊

        1. WhoCares says:


          See! That’s a perfect example; so you do know what I mean about sports bars…but I’d like Renarde’s take as well.

          And, oh dear…

          “did I hear you actually say that you’re past due for a night out to paint the town red? If so, I think you mighy have just stumbled upon a perfect painting partner.”

          BKK, you certainly read between the lines there – didn’t you?! I’m not even sure where I last left my paintbrush…but *that* sounds like a lovely plan.

      3. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Hehe, MB 😃 Isn’t it fun whenever you can just throw in a Tudor-saying. It makes you sound so cool. ❄

        I’ll take my bourbon over beer, but I love some good wings! 🍗

        We’ll have to show Renarde and WhoCares a few quality sports bars that are actually fun. Plus, they should make for good empathic Hunting Grounds as literal Sitting Targets will be everywhere… almost as good as at Lowe’s or Home Depot. We’ll just have to over look their beer bellies. 🍺 They always worse when they’re sitting down.

        Still, I’m ready!

      4. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Ha! “I wanted to have my first gay bar experience sober!” – WhoCares
        Words to live by.
        (I bet that was fun!)

        1. WhoCares says:

          Omg BKK, I read that while having breakfast with my son…I was giggling out loud so hard, he was demanding to know what’s funny!?!
          I can’t even…

          (It *WAS* fun!)

        2. WhoCares says:

          An aside to HG – thank-you for moderating our silliness!

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Not a problem.

      5. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Oh, and you didn’t offend me, WhoCares. I don’t drink beer. But all of the Americans I know who travel abroad do love European beer, telling me that the Germans have the best.

        1. WhoCares says:


          Yes! German beer is the best!!…and some microbrewery craft beers.

      6. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Okay, I hear you, WhoCares!
        Here in Kentucky, we do have several microbreweries as well as vineyards, surprisingly enough.
        Let’s just say that I will have no trouble finding a variety of libation for anybody on the party bus. 🍸🍺🍷🍹

        Y’all are gettin’ me excited. 😄

      7. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        And no worries… pack light. I’ll supply the paintbrushes. 🙆

      8. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Very thoughtful of you, WhoCares…
        Yes – thank you, HG. You are most gracious. I know of not a place where a host interacts with his followers in the manner that you do. (❤)

        I’d send a kiss of appreciation your way, but I don’t want to risk upsetting Shieldmaiden. But really, what would it hurt since my smooch should lose potency as the gesture makes its way across the pond? 💋 Besides HG, I’m pretty sure that you and I are related… So to keep my Kentucky reputation in check, that kiss BETTER land on a forhead or cheek… not the southern cheek as Ive already planted plenty there.

        (Hey, a girls gotta do what a girls gotta do. It ain’t always easy scootin’ your way off the naughty step.)
        Kidding. We will be sending home a bottle for you, HG, via Renarde. Since this trip is one for the girls, we’ll experiment this route first. If the bourbon outing finds us overwhelmed with too much empathetic energy and we all end up sitting around crying, we’re definitely going to ask you come on the next trip… to moderate and ground us, if you’d be up for the challenge? ☺

        Seriously – Thank you, HG, for all that you do for us.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are welcome and thank you for your kind sentiments.

      9. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        MB, pretty sure we can find a gay bar in Louisville. But if we start there, we might never make it on The Trail!

        It sounds like a blast, so I’m all for spontaneity. Who knows where we could end up. Atlanta or the Carolinas… where will we find Red Oak beer?

        1. MB says:

          BKK, Red Oak Brewery is located at the big ol’crossroads called Whitsett, North Carolina. It is like manna from heaven brewed by the Angels themselves. Oh yeah, and it’s right next to the Flying J so we can grab a burger and get right back on the road!

      10. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        MB – I feel your excitement! You and WhoCares seem to be quite the connoisseurs of microbrewed beers. I’m impressed. I could definitely learn a thing or two from you ladies.
        I really like North Carolina… and truck-stop burgers. 🍔 I think we’ll all get along just fine. 😊

    3. mommypino says:

      Thank you for the invite BKK. I have always been wanting to visit South. I would love to oblige with the pork rinds and lumpia. However I would be lying if I say that I am not anxious about nobody wanting to sit by me out of fear of being fried.

      1. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        HaHa! 😂😂😂

      2. MB says:

        I’m not afraid Mommypino. I’ll sit between you and NA. I’m quite the little peacekeeper. *throws sparkly confetti* Party bus…rolling out!

    4. SMH says:

      lol BKK, I am all debated out but I will happily sit in a corner, drink and eat pork rinds.

      1. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        There’s no shame in time alone with pork rinds, SMH.

        At one of my class reunions, a classmate wandered off into a corner. She was drinking Tequila shots. Several of us found ourselves engrossed as she’d lick a bit of salt just before she took each shot. Of course, the guys enjoyed watching her salt-consuming technique. She was completely oblivious to the dancing around her or that my friends and I were standing there captivated by her Party of One. Pretty sure she had the best time of anybody that night.

        I’ll be looking forward to this SMH. ☺

        1. SMH says:

          hahaha party of one. I can lick salt with the best of them – or alone!

      2. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        I have no doubt, SMH.
        I have no doubt. 😆

  10. marinathemermaid3 says:

    Wow you people really like to hear yourselves talk!

    1. BurntKrispyKeen says:

      Ha! Marinathemermaid3, you should attend the Kentucky Bourbon Trail event to experience it in person. 😨 I won’t be offended if you bring earplugs.

    2. mommypino says:

      That’s what my husband tells me all the time. You sound just like him. Are you my husband? Spying on me here? 😳

      1. SMH says:

        lol mommypino. My ExH would have said the same. I talk for a living so there you go. Yes, I do like to hear myself talk. No shame in it at all.

        1. Renarde says:

          Quite so, SMH.

      2. mommypino says:

        Lol SMH, unfortunately for me, I don’t have a good excuse; I’m just a housewife. I just really have a tendency to have the weirdest ideas all the time and I tell my hubby about it and it is torture for him lol. But he says that to me in jest. He still listens because he doesn’t have a choice. 😂🤣

        1. SMH says:

          You are cute, mommypino, and I am sure your husband loves it!

    3. Renarde says:

      There are a lot and I mean a lot of very intelligent people on here who are debating extremely intresting ideas that are falling naturally out of the concept of ‘awareness’.

      Why don’t you contribute? Or should we just keep on taking about HG’s sexy legs?

      1. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        You know, Renarde, thinking about those legs is kind of a good diversion tactic.
        HG, you should provide us with more visual aids so that we can practice our distraction techniques… to help us get our minds off our lowly-mid-rangers.

        I mean.. what’s a new body part a week gonna hurt, HG, when you know it’s helping us to heal?

        (Besides, I really don’t know what a red shaft looks like?)
        Please? ☔

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Some of his body parts may even require 2 or 3 weeks of subsequent exposure to get the whole picture or to properly and fully absorb. No matter – we’re a patient lot.

        2. Renarde says:

          Red shaft !?! [Gulps]

          Oh you is a BAD BKK! I know EXACTLY where your mind is going with body parts! The only stipulation is that I would formally request that HG does NOT bring up that fucking Hand of Glory avatar again. Creepy McCreep.

      2. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Narc Angel, you made me giggle out loud. 😄 But yes, ma’am – we are a patient group indeed… a bit voyeuristic but nonetheless patient.
        You know, Narc Angel, HG did make mention once about some sort of warmth coming up in February. I couldn’t tell if it was to be a tropical vacation or intense flames inspired by V-Day, but both are capable of scorching, right?
        So we’re good.

        I’m w-a-i-t-i-n-g…. patiently, of course.

      3. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        I know.
        Trust me, Renarde, I’ve been on the naughty step enough to know.
        Actually, I thought about asking Narc Angel if I could borrow her naughty stool cushion, but she uses it quite a bit, so I hate to ask.
        You might not have seen the Narc Angel/Tudor exchange up above, so take a stroll to the top and find where I asked HG if he’s ever been to Disney World, and then read their exchange.
        I just don’t want you to think that NA and I are complete perverts or anything. And it should be noted, Renarde, that Narc Angel and I ARE very patient. We like to think it’s a North American thing.

        So I’m just sitting here waiting.

        Patiently waiting.

        Oh, come on, hurry up… even empaths get bored looking at the same thing. If it’s not “done” just yet, we don’t have to have full-on red, we’ll take it pink.

        Kidding… Just kidding, HG.
        Sorta. And while Renarde cracked me up over the hand, I actually thought you took that image down rather fast. I miss the ole hand.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          It was not removed fast. I put it up and then I took it down – there was no timescale associated with it from my side.

        2. Renarde says:

          I HAVE misses something here!! Off to look!

        3. NarcAngel says:

          Two things:
          1. You think he gave me a cushion??!!!
          2. I am a complete pervert.

      4. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Narc Angel, I just now fully caught on to what you were saying. (Like most of my body parts, this brain ain’t what it used to be. Duh!) I was thinking “sun exposure” … for the perfect shade of Star Wars red. 😡

        You meant: Don’t you dare take those pictures down after only one week. We need to marinate in the puzzle a bit to get proper placement of the pieces and all… or somethin’ like that. 😉 So yeah – I’m on board now, NA. We don’t want to be teased with just a glance, HG. Our empathic brains take longer to process certain images, ya know… because we have certain emotions attached to ’em, ya know.

        You’re so generous with your time, HG, that we were only thinking…. well, I’m just saying that you don’t have to stop there if you feel like giving more.
        (Just don’t tell Shieldmaiden we asked; and when you marry her, please delete about half of my posts. Deal?)
        I’m just kidding again.
        Know it’s just natural curiosity of what you look like – We are NOT interested in seeing much more than a glimpse of your face… though I’m sure your Star Wars umbrella is adorable.
        We don’t really want to see its glowing red shaft.

        (Now, I noticed you wear a big watch HG. When that big bolt comes out of the sky, will I need to remove all of my jewelry to reduce conduction time? ⚡ I just want to be prepared.)

      5. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        To clarify:
        So, just how many lies do I get to tell before I need to duck for cover? For the record, I wasn’t expecting “the bolt” to come out of the sky just because of the picture in question.

        But if that IS the normal progression of events once such image has been released, then I would like to officially change my stance. I really do need to learn more about glowing shafts.

      6. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Oh, Gawd… I’m just gonna have to give in and go out with one of those guys I’m not very attracted to… just to get this out of my system… before I completely embarrass myself here.

        Seriously, HG, when you get married… two things: I expect an invite to the wedding, and part of your gift will be a list of my posts to delete. Trust me… It will be one of the best wedding gifts you’ll ever receive. (Though I have a suspicion clean-up else where will be of greater concern. 😮)

        But to ease my mind, I will help you clean up the site so that it’s squeaky clean by the time you return from your honeymoon.

        See, Narc Angel… I was right when I said Renarde has good instincts.
        I is a bad BKK. 🙈🙉🙊

        1. Renarde says:

          BAAADDD BKK!

      7. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        “BKK – Two things:
        1. You think he gave me a cushion??!!!
        2. I am a complete pervert.” – Narc Angel

        Narc Angel, I love you. ❤
        Need I say more!
        I am working from home today, but I can’t seem to pull myself off Narcsite. This is w-a-a-a-y more fun than work!

        Renarde, I needed that scolding. I really did. I’m just an old woman, but I’m at that age. Well, you know… there’s a reason men peak around 18 – 20 years-old and we women hit that mark later. I think it’s so we don’t hurt ’em (at least one partner is biologically slowed down) and it’s God’s funny little joke for what they out us through in thrir youth… they’re winding down as we’re winding up!

        I haven’t officially dated since my narc encounter/divorce and I’m afraid it’s showing up here. So there’s another reason to add to the “pros” of HG’s rules. I am not usually this forward IRL. It’s so much easier hiding behind my purple wreath. (Not that I’m not nasty IRL, but you know what I mean.)

        Renarde, my sister tells me that I need one of those little (well hopefully not too little) tools that your narcissist is jealous of. I don’t have one. In your opinion, is my BAD bad enough that I should seek one out immediately?

  11. Louise says:

    Oh this thread is awesome 🤪. I don’t have time to read it all through properly right now. But, I have an initial thought. Regarding the managing of relationships between Ns and Es. That there most definitely is the capacity for a N to adapt in order to gain their fuel. If they could take the major step of revealing themselves. If there was a recognised and safe way to do so? Who knows? It could happen at some point in our evolution. 🤭🤣

    1. Renarde says:

      Most Ns will just never do that. They can never be aware and are thus doomed to keep on pinging off the edges. Evermore. There are ways for an E to facilitate better behaviour from an N but I think it depends where you sit in the matrix. I also am careful that a tiger remains a tiger and needs to be treated with respect (unless you’re a MMR in which case, let the games begin! Useless cunts).

      I think all Ns are very adaptive by their nature.

    2. BurntKrispyKeen says:

      Hi, Louise… I agree with you, and I enjoy your optimism. 😊 Sure, I understand what Renarde is saying that most narcissists will never change, but if we just nonchalantly accept that, then we’re just giving narcissists a free pass to do as they please. They’ve been on that free ride long enough!

      Now, in no way am I trying to marginalize the significance of NPD as being a real and serious disorder. I’ve got the scars to prove just how severe this disorder is! But we humans are incredibly capable beings. And even though I believe in a Creator, we humans most certainly evolve. We adjust, we adapt and we adopt better ways once we’ve been taught.

      “That there most definitely is the capacity for a N to adapt in order to gain their fuel. If they could take the major step of revealing themselves. If there was a recognised and safe way to do so? Who knows? It could happen at some point in our evolution.” – Louise

      Yes. Yes. Yes, Louise! My heart has to believe this. My brain knows it to be true.

      We are discovering so much about brain plasticity. The human genome is complex, dynamic and very exciting in regards to the possibilities of just how much “control” we have over making the best out of nature’s generosity.

      This fairly recent gene discovery is fascinating to me. We all have this one particular gene that, when “turned on” … can help our brains build more neurons and synapses. Wow, right?! This gene can be activated thorough periods of fasting and exercise. How exciting is this! Who couldn’t use more neurons and synapses?

      How many of you remember being taught that “humans only have so many brain cells and when they die off, that’s it?” I was much younger the first time I was taught that so-called fact. And even then, in my young mind, I thought that sounded like bullshit. It just didn’t make sense to me. So I refused to believe it.

      Now, of course, we realize that our capabilites are greater than once accepted. So I have to hold onto the hope that our possibilities are endless. Without this hope (hope paired with great effort) we wouldn’t be where we are today. With continued creative planning and scientific interventions, we can and will become better… at least those who are willing to try.

      And yes… I realize that’s the key, Renarde. They have to be aware enough to be willing, but it can happen. (I’m not blinded by my hope. 👀 In my eyes, my narcassist remains an asshole. 💩 😡 But if he’d stop getting his way through being an asshole, like Louise implied, he would find improved ways to obtain fuel that didn’t destroy the source.) They’re crafty little bastards. They can and will adjust (somewhat) when forced to. We just need to force their hand a bit… No Contact – I got it, but more can be done! I’m mainly referring to hope for future generations. I want a better world. 🌏

  12. mommypino says:

    “People do things largely because they are afraid of the repercussions of NOT doing their job. Most toe the party line. Yes, there are genuine honest and decent people out there but they are in the minority. Most people just do ‘enough’.”

    Unfortunately I would agree with you on that. But it doesn’t take away from the fact that empaths contribute so much because they don’t just do ‘enough’, they go out of their way. Just imagine how horrible it would have been if all of the doctors and nurses are like what you described. When my dad was hospitalized I noticed that so much. The doctors and nurses who obviously didn’t care and would just give him the shots and check his vitals and leave. Compared to the empathic nurse who joked with him and us and noticed that his feet were cold so she went out to look for socks and put the socks on him and tucked him in so lovingly even though it was just her job.

    I did not understand your comment about me putting my faith on the wrong people.

    Also, I don’t understand why my examples of historical figures are irrelevant. I was commenting in your assertion that Ns are running society in the macro level and these people have affected change in the macro level. They were not elected leaders but they were leaders nonetheless with how they inspired people in the macro level and were able to inspire ‘movement’ in the macro level.

    Another example of a macro level leader was the empath former president of the Philippines Cory Aquino. She was the first female president of the Philippines. She has succeeded a Greater narcissist dictator Ferdinand Marcos who had her husband assassinated for challenging him. She was a total empath, I think a Standard empath. She ran against dictator Marcos and she was cheated and she inspired the People Power revolution without blood shed and she was able to oust Marcos out of power. I think that with the right circumstances and right motivation, empaths can make such dynamic and huge difference and they can be great leaders on the macro stage.

    1. Renarde says:

      Empaths are drawn to vocational professions and of course they make a difference. But that isn’t on a macro level.It’s possible, though highly improbable that an Empath could make it to the top job. However, they are still only one person and most developed government have a group of people – in the UK the cabinet – around them. A party leader is really controlled by the party itself. It must be otherwise how would they get legislation passed? Party leaders are largely figureheads who are under the dictats of whatever way ‘the party’ wants to go. This is why many are now questioning the usual two party system. Especially when places such as NZ appear to run rainbow coalitions.

      The only exception that it standing out to me of an Empath in power is QE2 and of course she was born into it. Of course, the Queen has no political power but she can advise and she does have enormous presence on the world stage.

      The UK is about to sail into some very choppy waters because she cannot live forever. When she goes the nation will be sent into a tailspin, not just with her death but the crowning of Charles. God help us.

      1. mommypino says:


        I just gave an example of an Empath that became a president of a nation, Cory Aquino. She was there in the macro stage even though her country was not as powerful as the UK. And just like what I have said before, we have no idea how many empaths are already world leaders and running society in the macro level because we don’t know each of them to a great extent that we can diagnose them. We just don’t have reliable statistics to be able to say that. There might be a lot of empaths running society in the macro level but it is not very obvious because they are exhibiting high narcissistic traits in order to get in power and stay in power because they truly believe that that power will allow or allows them to create a difference for the greater good. They could be sheeps hiding in wolves’ clothing. 😉

        “Loving how you’ve conflated Trump with other other developing or dictatorial nations! Speaks volumes!

        Ah, Trump would love to be a dictator. But he’s not.

        I’m taking your point on the higher functioning ones but that does rather imply a sliding scale. Of course we know that it’s not. There is a clear boundary between being aware and not being aware. It is important to be precise, I think.”

        I’m not trying to debate on whether Trump is good or not. It’s a matter of opinion. I was just commenting on the original statement that you made that Ns are running society. So I said that Ns are probably overrepresented in politics but they are the higher functioning ones. Then you said that the Greaters are, the mid rangers would like to think that they are but they’re not. Then I said that I know some Upper Lessers as well that run countries, Trump, Duterte of the Philippines, and other presidents of developing or dictatorial countries. I just wanted to point out that we also have a lot of Upper Lessers running society in the macro level. I was not saying that they are doing a good job. I was commenting about the presence of their representation in the macro level as well.

        NA – How did you know that I love pork rinds? 😂

        Who Cares. – Pork rinds would be really good to eat with lentil soup. 😉

        1. Renarde says:

          It’s a good example but again, still begs the question is she really in charge?

          Maybe I need to be more specific and say ‘not in charge’ of which there can obviously be levels but who is in ultimate charge?

          1. mommypino says:

            Hi Renarde,

            I was trying to imply that she had great power running her nation when I described the way the Philippine government runs. I just didn’t do a better job at being direct with saying it. She had more power with being in charge of her country than Trump has in his country because the Philippine government is centralized. The state governments in the US excercise so much autonomy that the federal government doesn’t really affect it as much as it would like to. She didn’t have to deal with any of that because her government is centralized. She also had more power in her country than the prime minister of England has because she can only be ousted through impeachment at the legislature branch or through people power revolution which only happens when it gets really really bad. She dictates to her party what their vision is and the politicians at the legislative branch try to help her attain their goals. Of course though, at the world stage the US president and the UK prime minister has more power in affecting things in the global area because their countries are more powerful.

            Anyway, thank you Renarde for the discussion and for putting up with my typos and wrong grammar. I’ll just keep milking the English is my second language excuse. Also my autocorrect is off because it messes up with me when I type in a different language. I thoroughly enjoyed reading your ideas and I agree with a lot of them but I just prefer to live in my bubble where there are sheeps hiding in wolves’ clothing lol. 😂

          2. Renarde says:

            Oh no worries! I love a good autocorrect fail – I’m sure we all remember with great fondness the recent ‘hole-gate’ thread. BTW, until you just told me, I would never have guessed that English wasn’t your first language.

            I really don’t know enough about the Philippines situation to comment. I had thought though (possibly erroneously) that it was as corrupt as fuck. But I could stand corrected on that one.

            I don;t blame you on wanting to be inside the bubble, I don’t blame you at all…

          3. windstorm says:

            I used to have that problem with the autocorrect, but now I download a separate keyboard for each language. That way as long as I use the appropriate keyboard, the autocorrect is for the right language. Don’t know if that will work for you.

          4. mommypino says:

            Thank you Windstorm. I am not aware of that. Is that an app for iPhone?

          5. windstorm says:

            No. It’s in your setting. You can choose keyboards, like you can choose languages.

          6. mommypino says:

            Thank you so much Windstorm! I just figured it out. So helpful! 😊

        2. Renarde says:

          I’m with you on not debating Trump though…

        3. WhoCares says:


          “Pork rinds would be really good to eat with lentil soup.”

          And re: Empaths at the macro level of society…
          “They could be sheeps hiding in wolves’ clothing. 😉”
          I like that possibility.

          1. mommypino says:

            Thank you WhoCares. 😊

      2. mommypino says:

        “It’s possible, though highly improbable that an Empath could make it to the top job. However, they are still only one person and most developed government have a group of people – in the UK the cabinet – around them. A party leader is really controlled by the party itself. It must be otherwise how would they get legislation passed? Party leaders are largely figureheads who are under the dictats of whatever way ‘the party’ wants to go. This is why many are now questioning the usual two party system. Especially when places such as NZ appear to run rainbow coalitions.”

        The Philippines have designed their form of government from the US model because the US colonized the Philippines after the US-Spanish war. We are a small country so we didn’t have federal and state governments, we have it more centralized. We have the executive, legislature and judiciary branches as well for checks and balance so the President nor the legislature does not possess complete power. It’s not a parliamentary system like in the UK. People in the Phils. elect their president democratically through elections. Like in the US, the presidential candidate belongs to a party because they share the same vision but the party doesn’t tell the president what to do and the party cannot oust the president. President can only be ousted through impeachment or a revolution.

      3. mommypino says:


        you’re right about it being as corrupt as fuck in the Philippines. The president that Cory Aquino replaced was a Greater narc I believe. When he was in law school he assassinated his dad’s political opponent (he was a sharp shooter). He went to jail for it and inside the jail, he studied for his bar exams and topped the bar exams while he was in jail. The idiotic president at that time gave him a presidential pardon because he said that this guy is too smart and the country needs his talents (and also because his politician dad lobbied for the pardon). He got out of jail and got in politics. Married a former beauty queen Imelda (infamous for her shoe collection). When he became president, he wanted to be a dictator so he orchestrated assassinations, bombings, ambushes, and all kinds of violence through out the country. He blamed all of it to a socialist rebel group. He convinced the legislative branch to declare Martial Law that gave him absolute power. The senators and congressmen supported him because a lot of them have been ambushed or bombed, some of them were killed. When he got Martial Law, he controlled the media, everything, it was almost like North Korea. He stayed in power for 20 years or so. There were elections but he always cheated easily so he kept on winning. Cory Aquino’s husband spoke against him and even went to the US to go to universities and tell American students about Marcos. When he came back to the Philippines, he was assassinated as he was stepping out of the airplane. And Cory Aquino ran against Marcos and she lost because he cheated her and people was just so fed up they went on the streets and marched. It was the People Power revolution and it was so unique because there was no blood shed. Just people marching on the streets to the presidential palace with their rosaries. This info is not mainstream history info but there was an interview where somebody that was there in the palace at that time said that representatives from the US were meeting with Marcos inside the presidential palace and they told him that Reagan said that if there will be bloodshed, the US will turn against him and they will provide military support to the generals who deflected and joine the People Power. He was offered by the US a secret escape to Hawaii if he will leave peacefully and not kill anyone.

        But it’s still as corrupt as fuck. We now have a Lesser narc Duterte who encourages killing drug addicts and pushers and other criminals vigilante style to fix the crime problems. But he has all kinds of fans.

  13. Kellie Mccoey says:

    Haha, in the US we say I don’t mean to be rude but…. we are gonna be.

    1. mommypino says:

      My narcish stepdaughters here in California love to use the “don’t get offended but…”. So I’m not just subjected to character assassination, I’m also told how I should feel ahead of time.

  14. Kellie Mccoey says:

    You’re not supposed to hurt people. That’s the only moral code that transcends. Period .

  15. BurntKrispyKeen says:

    Oh, and sorry about misspelling Shieldmaiden.* I almost typed Iron Maiden, so I guess that would have been worse? But my grammatical faux pas did start a bit of hope… that you’ll avoid “The Evil That Men Do” so she doesn’t “Run to the Hills.”

    So if you need any advice on this, HG, you can book a consultation with me, taking into consideration Central Standard Time. I will be happy to do that for you… reveal the needed requirements to make this relationship most successful… from the female perspective, of course. 😊

    For her, I hope the folks at church don’t ask “what’s a Shieldmaiden” when I add her to the prayer list.

    I’m only teasing. You know that I’m a hopeless romantic full of hope. And I’m aware that this will only be what you give it be.
    Give wisely, my advisor… my friend. ❤

    Sincerely… I wish you the best here, HG.

  16. BurntKrispyKeen says:

    I was eating breakfast in Nashville when I heard the most disgusting sound. I looked behind me to find an adorable Japanese couple. She was reading the newspaper as his lips were pressed against his spoon. He was sucking up the remaining milk from his cereal bowl. I had honestly never heard such a vulgar sound while dining out, yet I knew this horrible slurp was considered polite within the Japanese culture. I smiled at them both and turned around, suddenly unbothered by the noise.

    HG is right. Perception is everything.

    SMH is right, too! I’ve often wondered what this world would be like without someone to care for the sick… or to care in general? Certainly SMH relayed it well. Empathic people adhere to a standard that is vital for our cohesive existence.

    I happen to believe in a higher power. Many narcissists claim to be agnostic if not atheist, yet they masterfully utilize the probability that the rest of us will “do the right thing.” Without our compliance to the codes, they aren’t nearly as effective. We need each other… sure. Yet I contend that the narcissist needs the empath more so. Empaths could peacefully survive, assigning those with special skills and unique talents to the betterment of the group. No worry about somebody saying they added wood to the fire but instead be found taking a nap. Nope, not in Care-meglio-ville.

    Narcissists would likely all kill each other without our enforcement of peace and order. Plus, the gas stations would quickly run out of fuel without an empathic, endless supply. They’d be stuck in their tracks, stealing and cheating until all resources were extinguished. Yikes!
    We sure are needed, SMH.
    Regardless to whom sets forth “the rules,” basic human decency (my perspective of decency, HG 😉) surely helps this world run more smoothly. I have said it before… my dream is for us to find a way to maximize the talents of BOTH the empath and the narcissist… especially since I’m inherently attracted to narcs.. and their accents. So I have to believe in an improved coexistence… without all of the pain. And it can be done!

    I understand this disorder better now (thank you, HG) but I still refuse to believe that the narcissist isn’t capable of change… at least to some degree. At times, I’ve certainly had to go against my empathic nature to survive, or else this world would have devoured me years ago. So I hope to someday see a discussion on this (brace for it HG) … on this Hope for Change. Perhaps this Shieldmadion will inspire something? (I am not up to par on this new lady interest and would greatly appreciate a heads up from our favorite resident librarian on where to learn more? 💗)

    Speaking of school, after reading through all of these comments, I feel as though I should earn an honorary degree! The HG/SMH debate was fantastic and the exchange between MB and WS was heartwarming. Deep stuff folks. Many of the other comments here are also thought-provoking.

    (Side note: Though “we” might have deserved it when our own governor called us soft for cancelling school… in my neck of the woods, I do not know of ANY first-cousin marriages. Just sayin’ – Though I do realize it’s a thing. I felt compelled to let y’all know that it’s not entirely like that everywhere. Besides, pretty sure we learned it from The Royals – long ago. Still, it is NOT something that I personally see as a frequent occurrence. Gosh, I hope that’s not because I am personally involved and just don’t know it! 😮)

    Regardless, I still feel like I earned a degree in this comment section. So I’m hoping there will be a reception after the graduation ceremony. If so, can we have BBQ ribs and potato soup? I’m now okay with any slurping sounds those items might inspire. 😊
    Again, thanks to all for the education. ❤

    1. WhoCares says:


      Great post – and I agree with all this:

      “I have said it before… my dream is for us to find a way to maximize the talents of BOTH the empath and the narcissist…especially since I’m inherently attracted to narcs.. and their accents. So I have to believe in an improved coexistence… without all of the pain.”

      Personally, I don’t have much hope in the realm of romantic entanglements (and I agree with HG that it is dangerous for some to cling to hope in that arena). But even in the depths of my devaluation I could see glimpses of prosocial behaviour by my narc – but he couldn’t sustain them because due to chronic fuel shortages he had no choice but to try provoke negative fuel.

      It would take a very unique situation for it to work in an intimate relationship…but overall as narcissists’ behaviour becomes more transparent and less tolerable – they will be forced to endeavor to become more prosocial in how they interact with other members of society.

      And yes, on a personal note – damn narcs and their accents!!!

      1. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Thank you, Who Cares. I understand your view, as it is the romantic involvement with a narcissist that was most devastating for me. Of course, having a narcissist as a parent would likely be the most damaging. (I am blessed to have escaped that dynamic, so I hope that I didn’t belittle the horrors of those who had to grow up with narcasism by saying that. But there is something about being entangled with one romantically that rips your heart out like nothing else.)

        I was able to reasonably manage other narcissists throughout my life…. a narcissist for a boss, a sister-in-law with very selfish ways, and a friend with a huge narcissistic streak (though she is actually probably more histrionic). Combined, they were easier to manage than the one romantic narcissist who turned my world upside-down.

        But it is fascinating how narcissists adjust their behaviors… how they’ll do to one, something they wouldn’t dare try on another. While this disorder is multifaceted, deeply-layered and misunderstood, I do believe that narcissists are like everybody else in that they’ll do whatever they can get away with. So much of temper tantrums/violent outbursts, etc. is a learned behavior. When people get away with something, they tend to do it again.

        I also believe more would be prosocial, as you say, if the consequences to their negative behaviors were greater. I want to believe that if we all stick together (especially empaths) and not allow them to do as they please, more would adhere… realize the benefits of catching more flies with honey.

        Who Cares, that was a great point you shared with me. I realize that change for any of us is a rare occurrence. But I have to believe it is possible.

        They might be wired differently, but they’re brains aren’t concrete… though they are hard-headed. Ha! 😃 But as we learn more and more about the plasticity of the brain… I have to hold onto hope. I had done a little research on the way a so-called sociopath’s brain “lights-up” under scans, and interestingly enough, some so-called normal people have brains that exhibited the same patterns. One was a professor who, while viewed as a bit distant/aloof, didn’t exhibit sociopathic behaviors… even though his brain scan did.

        So while I do believe that their brains ARE different, I think much of their behaviors comes from a deep-seated primal fear. (And that’s a whole other discussion.) But if they want to do better, they will. Because they can. They own that power.

        I ajways enjoy reading your posts, Who Cares. So thank you for responding to me. I know that few people believe in my hope.

        Narcissism isn’t a choice, but what one does with it is.

        1. WhoCares says:


          Yes, agreed: the romantic entanglement was the most devastating for me as well. And through it I learned that my mother is a narcissist; so I guess I could lay blame there and say it was most devastating because it set me up to interact with my narc down the road – but that isn’t truly how I feel. And although I can’t speak for others; I don’t feel that my experience was belittled in anyway by your comment. Also, I recognize that some would take the stance that there is absolutely no way one can work with a narcissist – at any level. The fact is we interact with them all the time in various ways.

          I would agree with you in saying that it is fascinating how narcissists adjust their behaviours…and will try to see what negative behaviours they can get away with (of course! especially if negative fuel is the most delicious.)
          We surely know that they are good at being ‘bad.’ Wouldn’t it be fascinating to see narcissists adjust their behaviours in a positive way? During the worst of my devaluation I recall my narc, surprising even himself (because he was forced to engage in prosocial behaviours), by the things he was doing and learning and he would say, in disbelief, reflecting on the activity at hand: “You know I’ve never done this for myself or anyone!” And so, while you couldn’t call it a rekindling of the golden period, he would still get a positive response from me acknowledging the truth of what he was saying.

          I think you’re right about the consequences to their behaviour – if they were more severe it would impact their behaviour – because, of course, they are often quite aware of how breaking the law or transgressing certain social boundaries will damage their facade. But in reflecting on my own narc: if the rewards for prosocial behaviour were also made to outweigh the hit of receiving negative fuel (my narc wasn’t even getting much negative fuel because I had nearly emotionally shut down) then they’ll take what they can get…all mine could get from me at the time was some positive reinforcement for prosocial tasks..

          So while ‘punishing’ them for bad behaviour sounds like a plan – negative attention for behaviours is just as favourable to them as positive attention – in fact, more favourable. Knowing what we know here from HG’s teachings it would be better to somehow only give positive fuel and starve them of negative fuel.

          Regarding plasticity of the brain – yes, I have been reading up on that and it is fascinating stuff!

          I really enjoy your posts as well BKK! And – cheers to hope where we can find it 🙂

        2. WhoCares says:

          I just wanted to note that in my earlier comment to BKK – I was not in anyway suggesting that someone should experiment with eliminating negative fuel and only giving positive fuel within their entanglement…noooo.
          My observations with regard to my narc were from a situation that was akin to being in enforced isolation with my narc. It was not a good situation overall and I would *not* recommend it to anyone…I’m just able to objectively reflect back on it now.

      2. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        I understood how you meant that, WhoCares, in regard to positive/negative fuel. Unfortunately, I gave plenty of both. My narcissist was the most charming individual… such a gentleman. He would get angry but controlled it well. He never laid a harmful hand on me. I never saw him get physically violent, but I always sensed that he could.

        In regards to fuel, he was all over the map there. Sure, he’d take negative fuel all day long over being ignored. But if I was wounding him with my words… when I spewed that negative/challenge fuel with projectile force, he’d shut down and go silent… like a typical mid-ranger.

        He tried very hard to keep his liaisons secret from me, but as I discovered more, he’d bounce from being upset, trying to downplay my discovery, to soaking up my pain with an excitement that he struggled to hide.

        It was as if I could see my tears fill his empty soul.

        Once I started to realize his secrets, he’d bounce all over the place from sheer anger at my discovery to… the very next minute… simple glee at seeing how much I cared. If I discovered that he had visited his ex-girlfriend/attorney, he’d portray it as “all business.” If I cried because I searched to discover that he had spent time with her, he’d passionately kiss me, telling me that I was the only woman he wanted… the one… that she was only helping him with legal matters, nothing more. He claimed that he would NEVER consider going back to her as she made him miserable.

        He loved tears and grovelling, of course, but personal insults seemed to truly hurt him. IDK – it was odd, WhoCares. Sometimes he’d relish in a verbal lashing like I’d expect a greater would. Other times, he’d retreat. When he sent me his email exchanges between 30 plus women, I told him that I was relieved to know that my assumptions were right… that he was indeed a narcissistic sociopath. He replied, “Oh, honey.”

        When I told him that what usually happens in these cases is the women befriend each other and then turn on the man. I asked him what he would do if we women decided to all get together? He replied, “It would have to be a big room.”

        Yet, he’d retreat and whimper like a whipped pup if I insulted him or found a way to belittle his perceived superiority, especially if he was returning to attempt a hoover. I can’t remember what HG calls them, but he gave those little “test hoovers.” Then, he’d chuckle the next time a conflict occurred as if he was totally unbothered by anything I did or said, telling me that I could never make him jealous. But I could tell by his tiny microexpressions that he could indeed become jealous. Those millisecond glitches in that stone-cold face told me so.

        When his mask finally fell to the floor, he confessed that “people are just objects to be used,” I told him that I already knew his stance. He proclaimed that he was only trying to protect me from himself. He asked if I believed that he was capable of harming another… of causing death? I told him, “Potentially, yes.”
        He replied, “Smart girl.”

        I made so many mistakes, WhoCares.
        But I knew that there was no winning with him, because he’d never be authentic enough to show his vulnerabilities to me. I finally realized that we would never be able to grow.. to learn to trust… to ever share genuine love. Because he would never allow it. He was too busy trying to win a battle that only he was fighting.

        So sad.

        1. WhoCares says:


          Thank-you for telling me some of your story regarding your entanglement; I recall only reading bits and pieces here and there that you shared.

          Ah, infidelities…I’m sorry you endured that. Now I suspect that my narc must have unfaithful but he would have had to work it into his work/study/online habits etc. but there was no overt sign of it that I could see at the time. But he excels at being very secretive and compartmentalizing things. Now some things come to light that reveal he was cheating but I now that I understand how narcissism manifests itself I no longer care. (In fact, towards the end of our relationship I suspected him of doing so despite having no proof and I truly didn’t care because I had mostly withdrawn all physical attention and emotional resources from him.) I know that I could likely consult with HG and put all the pieces of the puzzle together but I don’t need to – it is enough to know that it’s likely – and the reason is: because he is a narcissist. I won’t waste any further time and money on figuring him out.

          You’re right: it is sad. And I made so many mistakes as well…at least we have the capability to learn from them, right BKK?

      3. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        WhoCares, if you don’t mind my asking… what in particular about your romantic entanglement with your narcissist helped you to learn/discover that your mother was also one?

        1. WhoCares says:

          That’s kind of a long story but I will try to shorten it. I always thought my mom was the way she was due to the circumstances of her life – and health. I had always had a tense relationship with her in some regards but lived my own life (often out of town from her) so it was something I couldn’t see until I started making the connections between similarities in my narc’s behaviour and her behaviours.

          When I was trying to pick up the pieces of my life following the end of the formal relationship with my ex, I made a choice that put me in close contact with her (I recall that I felt like I had ‘gone from the frying pan into the fire’ but ignored the feeling because I was so stressed and didn’t believe I had a lot of options given the fallout of my entanglement.) But what happened was like an instant repeat of what I just come out of: I was getting the exact same messages from her that I got from my narc (when things were not going right). Essentially that everything was all my fault, I was to blame for things not working – and that I needed to do more. I realized that only these two people in my life were the ones making me feel this way – when *I* knew and *others* around me knew that the reality was that I was working my *ass* off to set things right. There were other red flags but I was too worn down to see them. But one day I put my suspicions to the test and I could see that I was right…so I went no contact and consulted with HG later to confirm that she is a narcissist. I still didn’t believe it (I had to email HG to again tell me her school and cadre because of my disbelief). And I know that others would not believe me because her facade, from a certain perspective, is so awesome.
          I would even entertain maintaining extremely limited contact with her because I still care – but I realized that I am much too damaged to endure any attempts on her part to provoke negative fuel. I am still no contact with her but have ways of finding about her health etc., and would step in if she absolutely had no one else.
          But, honestly, she’ll get better quality fuel from using the fact that her daughter doesn’t speak to her and garnering whatever sympathy she can get from that by choosing to tell other people whatever she wants about me because I really do not care. So really, I am doing her a favour.

          Sorry about the lengthy response BKK!

      4. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Oh, no need to apologize to ME, WhoCares, regarding a lengthy response! At one time, I was fearful that HG was going to start charging me rent. 💰 Sometimes I take up way more real estate than necessary to get my point across. So know that you do way better there than I do.

        I like your style, WhoCares and have long felt that you and I were kindred spirits. Expressing ourselves… well, it’s what we empaths do. I love the way you take the time to explain such in a way that reads easily and is always, I might add, well-written. 💖

        Anyway, back on point…. I can only imagine what you went through and how difficult that discovery must have been. When HG confirmed my suspicions, that my narcissist was indeed a narcissist… I was relieved but at the same time, I hated to hear it! I knew what it meant.

        I knew that little bit of *hope* I was so desperately holding onto to would have to be tucked away. That was a hard adjustment for someone like me to let go of hope. Actually, I didnt let “go” of it entirely… just put it on the proverbial shelf where there would be plenty of random empathic IPSSs to look after it for me.

        Now, it seems to me as if you have long been a strong, independent woman. I’m sorry that you have had to endure two up-close-and-personal narcissists in your life. But I can’t say that they took from you what you think they did. I think they helped to mold you into this, wise, well-balanced, eloquent woman. At least that’s I how see it. (And I have already established in other posts that I find my perspective to be spot-on, so I’m pretty sure you can hang your hat on my assessment. 😆)

        Thank you for sharing, WhoCares. 😊

        1. WhoCares says:

          Dear BurntKrispyKeen,

          I like your style too!

          Thank-you for taking the time to write that; you have no idea the weight your words carry at this particular time…when I first started reading the blog your comments were some of the main ones that drew me in to want to join the conversation. I have found your perspective one that I admire – and often share.

          “That was a hard adjustment for someone like me to let go of hope. Actually, I didnt let “go” of it entirely… just put it on the proverbial shelf where there would be plenty of random empathic IPSSs to look after it for me.”

          This made me chuckle – it is a good thing that we can still find things to feel hope over – even if we have to suspend it for a while and in spite of having our hopes dashed to the ground – it is, in part, what makes us the resilient empaths that we are.

          Your words are very timely; I so needed to hear them…I’m currently at a juncture where a real opportunity to improve my situation has presented itself (in the midst of life also throwing more than one curve ball) and I’m terrified. I don’t have a really good track record for ‘starting over’ and I’m not sure what energy I’ll have let if this doesn’t work…I literally feel like I’m back on the road that lead me to first escaping my narc and thoughts of “I hope I don’t die trying.” I don’t mean literal death but I’m terrified of committing to something in the event that I let people down – because (thanks to my narcs having ingrained this so deep) ‘letting people down’ is worse than death. At least if you’re dead, you have a good excuse for letting people down!

          Despite my fears, I still went ahead and put forth my best bid for this opportunity – because if I didn’t at least try, I would be letting myself down. (It’s an opportunity to use my writing skills as well – so I’ll take that compliment!)

          Thank-you for your words BKK, I greatly appreciate your contributions here. <3

          1. FYC says:

            Hello WhoCares, Did you pursue this opportunity? Are you pleased thus far?

          2. WhoCares says:

            Hello FYC,

            Thank-you for asking!
            I pursued it to the point where I put forth a proposal to the parties involved – so that my intentions were made clear from the start. It, unfortunately, did not happen for a variety of reasons. But, in the end, I think it was a good thing because it was a role I would have been willing to take on because it fits my current needs and skill sets – however, financially, it would not be the most lucrative venture for me (maybe with time this would have improved but it is uncertain to me if it’s worth the risk.) One positive thing: the fact I held to my stipulations in my business proposal – in addition to not being too emotionally invested in the outcome – resulted in flushing out the fact that the person who fulfilled this position previously (a narcissist) and gave it up, would have attempted to engineer it so I felt the need to ‘partner’ with him in this business role. I would have been willing to mentor in the short-term with him, because I have worked with him in other roles and respect his skills – plus, as narcissists go I can see through his manipulations and kind of ‘like’ him…but no way in heck do I want to be chained to a narcissist in a small business!!
            I at least avoided that type of ‘adventure’ with my ex…

            So: disaster averted!!! I attribute that directly to my learning here about how narcissists operate and how I operate in response as the empath that I am.

            That business role currently stands unfilled…so it may present itself again but in the meantime life has given me other obstacles to deal with!
            Thanks again FYC for asking, and sorry for the ‘vagueness’ of describing what happened…I was excited about it at first but really believe now that I dodged a bullet! Besides; there will be new adventures on the horizon I’m sure…

          3. FYC says:

            Hi WhoCares, Bravo! Brilliant instincts and insight. A much better opportunity will come soon. Vagueness is expected and appreciated; anonymity is far more important for your safety. Best wishes on your future!

          4. WhoCares says:

            Thank-you very much FVC.

          5. WhoCares says:


            Just an addendum: the person who previously held this business role (and had abandoned it to explore going back to school; a choice that “fell through” for him) has now broadcasted, by email, that he intends to resume this role, himself, in a few months time. (In the meantime he has lost his previous, most excellently located, place of business and will have to run it out of his home.)

            I know that he had proclaimed his intent because I was invited to attend a meeting where the future of this “position” will be discussed openly and he knows of my interest in it… and perhaps the interests of others.

            It is so blatantly transparent that I’m having to quell my need to laugh out loud about it. He is like a hound, jealously guarding a bone that may be coveted by another – and even though he chooses not to consume the bone; he’ll be damned if he lets anyone else get their paws on it.

            People wonder why we are so grateful to HG…why we *appear* to ‘faun’ over him…well, if you witnessed the application of your learning here in your day to day life – or, as a result, you have even been able to accurately predict the outcome of interacting with certain narcissists beforehand…well, the proof is in the pudding.

          6. WhoCares says:

            Whoops…”faun” over…Freudian slip.


          7. FYC says:

            Hi WhoCares, Sorry I missed your updated reply and hence the delayed response. Bravo on working out your situation! I think you called it perfectly and made the right decision.

            I can very much appreciate your experience regarding real world application of HG’s teachings and the resultant enlightenment, wisdom and gratitude. The value is limitless and priceless.

            Every question I had regarding the narcissists I have encountered in life has been answered by HG in a way that psychological theory and therapy can not. Standard theory and therapy will likely never achieve appreciable success unless a rare individual such as HG begins to publish within that area. No one else has demonstrated his combination of self/other awareness, personal insight, transparency, intelligence and communication skills regarding narcissism. Nor has anyone else created such a comprehensive model of narcissists. Even if HG were to enter that arena, he would likely be critisized and rejected by ‘peers’ out of jealousy and the rather narcissistic need to be ‘right’ and maintain a desired position as a preeminent scholar.

            Of course that earned praise above will be considered as fawning or worship (ridiculous) by some people, but when opined as such it always reveals more about the person making the comment. This site is not a fan club or a cult. It is a rare font of knowledge and invaluable advice. Those who appreciate it for what it is prosper greatly.

            Thanks for letting me get that off my chest. Knowledge transforms ignorance into enlightenment.

          8. K says:

            I couldn’t agree with you more.

          9. WhoCares says:

            Thank-you for your reply FYC, don’t worry about the delay. I’m so behind on replying to people myself; it happens. Either I don’t see a notification, or get busy in real life…sometimes I just put off replying because I want to reply in a way that honours the other person’s comment (and I’m not in the frame of mind to do so in the immediate moment) – I’m perfectionistically procrastinating (say that 5 times fast) that way…working on it though!

            “Every question I had regarding the narcissists I have encountered in life has been answered by HG in a way that in a way that psychological theory and therapy cannot. Standard theory and therapy will likely never achieve appreciable success unless a rare individual such as HG begins to publish within that area.”

            Agreed. And even when some professionals (that I’ve shared HG’s work with) see the value of it, they don’t know how to apply it. A therapist that I know is afraid to share it in group support settings because the narcissists that may be ‘lurking’ will use it to their advantage to ‘manipulate’ better; I said no, no, no – that’s not how it works.

            Regarding real world application of HG’s work: that is where I have seen the absolute value of what I’ve learned here – and, out of necessity, I’ve had to become a fast learner.

            And on your comment about the supposed cult/fan club observations of others – everything you said!!

      5. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Ooohh… I have a feeling that you are about to embark on a very exciting adventure! 😊 That fear… that self-doubt is actually a good thing. We all share that, but it’s how we allow it to manifest that most matters.

        A lady of your character will utilize that fear as a driving force to succeed. I have no doubt of this, WhoCares.

        Your communication style is lovely; your writing skills are a gift.

        Girl, you got this! Knock it out of the park and do keep us posted on how far it goes. Best wishes to you, WhoCares! ❤

        1. WhoCares says:


          You’re right; it could be an adventure! And sometimes I think I could really use *less* adventure…but in many ways the timing is right (or as right as it’s ever going to be) and I feel like I’m in more control of how this adventure pans out 😉

          Thank-you for your well wishes!

          By the way, I haven’t been able to keep up on many threads – but I loved your story of Ruby! Very insightful into her nature – and yours <3

      6. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        P.S. Thank you for your kind words, WhoCares. You warmed my heart. ❤

    2. K says:

      These threads cover the new dynamic and check out HG’s instagram, as well. There are 467 comments on bridging the gap and 146 on ice cold with Alex.

      Use control+F or command+F (mac) and type: new dynamic into the search bar on the upper right and then use the keyword: ShieldMaiden.
      That should make it easier for you to find the relevant comments.


      Use keyword: new dynamic on this thread (106 comments).

      1. MB says:

        K, I haven’t seen your knitted mittens around on IG. I’ve been keeping my eyes peeled for you!

        1. K says:

          Ha ha ha…I am so focused on learning cognitive narcissism that I am neglecting the IG. Maybe I will make an appearance in the near future.

          1. MB says:

            I won’t give up on you K! I’m gonna keep looking!

          2. K says:

            Ok, I am on IG and I have already answered a question for -eurobek-.

          3. MB says:

            K, you are the 🐝s knees!

          4. K says:

            Ha ha ha…IG will keep me current.

          5. MB says:

            K, and connected too!

      2. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Thank you, ma’am. Please know that your instruction is much appreciated. I will definitely check out those links.

        Before I was able to have your above guidance, I did see where MB commented on two wine glasses. So I went to Instagram. I’m not on social media, so I was pleased to see that I was able to read the comments as an outside observer.

        I must say – it was a bit of a guilty pleasure… peeking in on a new romance as it unfolds. Instagram is pretty cool. I felt like Gladys Kravitz without having to hide behind the curtains.

        I must add, Shieldmaiden seems like a lovely lady… noticeable even through the tiny snippets shared. (Or maybe I just sense such, knowing HG wouldn’t be so excited if she weren’t someone special.) But what guy wouldn’t be excited over a leggy Norwegian blonde?

        I have so many thoughts twirling in my head about this budding romance, especially knowing this union is unfolding between an empath and a greater. But my posts are long enough as is, so I’ll spare you.

        Again, thank you for your help K. This type of service makes me wish you were available IRL. ❤

        1. K says:

          My pleasure BurntKrispyKeen
          IRL is so much better. Nothing beats a cuppa and a good conversation in real time. I think HG is infatuated over the leggy Norwegian blonde’s special fuel output, as well as, her character traits and residual benefits.

          It will very interesting to see how the romance all unfolds.

      3. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        I agree, K… There is no doubt that Shieldmaiden is impressing him with more than just her physical attributes.
        While I think that HG still intends to adamantly protect his identity, I’m pretty certain that I feel a little itch… of HG wanting to pop out…
        Hello World!

        Perhaps if he ever does, it will inspire the rest of us… and we can just have a good old-fashioned reunion, conversing over that warm cup of coffee (or hot tea for me)…. or better yet, a get-together with a little bourbon sipping. 🍻
        I would love to meet y’all IRL. 💖

        HG, in part, is it hard to not want to share with Shieldmaiden this empire that you’ve built? I mean… when you see her books, is it hard to suppress the desire of wanting to say, “Well, darling, I’m quite the accomplished author myself?”

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I assume you mean when I see The Shieldmaiden’s library of books (as she is not a writer at least not in terms of profession, she does write and does so most eloquently) do I want to tell her that I am an author? Absolutely, I have to bite my tongue, especially when I see a copy of ‘Fuel’ tucked between Wuthering Heights and the Count of Monte Cristo.

          1. Twilight says:

            Seriously HG, she has a copy of Fuel within her collection?
            If so she knows “of you” yet “knows not she is with you”.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            No, it was a joke.

          3. K says:

            Ha ha ha…I read all three of those books and they are excellent!

          4. HG Tudor says:

            Mine is the best naturally.

          5. K says:

            Ha ha ha… absolutely the best!

          6. Twilight says:

            I got that after I finished reading the thread this morning

      4. Sarah says:

        HG, were you the first person to use the term “Fuel” as opposed to narcissistic supply?

        I ask because I have heard it referenced by many others including psychiatric professionals.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Yes, I was. It is of course entirely gratifying to have others use my lexicon, so long as they do not claim to have devised the lexicon themselves.

          1. A383 says:

            But HG, if you ever do reveal yourself, is it likely that the psychiatric community around the world will adopt your terms such as fuel, Greaters etc.

            How do you see it going re your legacy if they dismiss it as a ‘dumbing down’ of the established terminology such as narcissistic supply etc.

            Also, did you know that Sam Vaknin describes his intimate partners as secondary supply and random people as primary supply, which is the exact opposite to you (never really made much sense to me and that was prior to finding your work).


          2. HG Tudor says:

            1. I do not know, but they should.

            2. Their loss. More people realise that that particular community does not understand as well as it thinks it does and also fails to use effective methods to communicate to people who need help.

            3. I did not know and that makes no sense but I am unconcerned by it.

          3. SMH says:

            I read that too in Vaknin’s work. It made sense to me at the time – the idea was that the secondary source was not the ‘exciting’ fuel source but the steady one in the background all the time (IPPS). The primary sources (IPSS’s and the like) were the ones that gave the best fuel and they were rotated in and out while the secondary one stayed put.

            I am not saying this to flatter you HG. I am saying it because it is true – while Vaknin’s model seemed to fit my experience back then, I had yet to really engage with MRN with the added IPPS (because I did not yet know she existed). Not only do your terminologies make more sense but you really bring to life the actual dynamics that have completely changed the way I was thinking about sources.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you SMH

          5. SMH says:

            You’re welcome, HG. Thank you!

      5. Whitney says:

        Not only the lexicon, but the concept of ‘fuel’ is completely unique, and it is ‘fuel’ that underpins Narcissistic behaviour. HG is the world’s leading pioneer and expert on Narcissism.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I agree and thank you.

      6. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Ha! 😄 HG, pardon the expression, but I bet you’d shit a brick sideways if you saw one of your books in her collection. 💩

        But seriously, when I saw that stack of books, I sensed that she’d be the type of lady impressed by your delivery… your gift of conveyance. Let’s just say that I’m sure she finds herself “transported” when you pepper her with your verbal blandishments. So, I had already imagined how many times you’ve had to bite that silver tongue of yours!

        No doubt… it is taking extreme control for a greater to resist the urge to brag about accomplishments in an area he is trying to keep hidden. I have so many thoughts here, HG. There are so many layers to peel back. In all due respect, do you think you’re ready?

        Ready for what it takes?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Ha ha, I would not shit a brick sideways if I saw one of my works in The Shieldmaiden’s collection, it would entertain me.

          It takes a degree of control to not reveal my accomplishments, however, I am blessed owing to the fact that I have plenty of other accomplishments that I can tell her about and show her, I have many strings to my bow.

      7. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Oh, and HG… I had once heard that the term “with due respect” can be taken wrong by the Brits. I’m not sure if that is correct, so I switched to “in due respect,” hoping that you would know that I was trying to relay my question in a respectable manner, considering the delicate nature of this new dynamic.

        Am I making any sense here? Do the folks from the UK find that phrase facetious or insulting, or was I misinformed?

        Or, better yet… overthinking like a typical empath??? 😨

        1. HG Tudor says:

          In Britain if you say ‘with respect’ or ‘with due respect’ it generally means ‘I am about to say something you will not like/be insulting.”

          1. MB says:

            In the South, you can negate the scathing remark with “Bless your heart”

          2. HG Tudor says:

            I like to opt for “you can fuck that shit sky high”

          3. MB says:

            I like that saying too HG!

          4. NarcAngel says:

            I’ve always taken ‘bless your heart’ as a passive aggressive ‘you’re too stupid to respond to’ (with a mental pat to the top of the head). Is that correct?

          5. MB says:

            Yes NA. “Bless your heart” or “Bless his heart or hers” is very much passive-aggressive. That’s why I said a scathing remark can be negated by using the phrase. It doesn’t really. It can also be used in a condescending way. I don’t use the phrase except jokingly.

          6. K says:

            I agree; I prefer the more aggressive response: Fuck you and your mother.

          7. Sweetest Perfection says:

            K, I like your style.

          8. MB says:

            SP, K has agreed to let me shadow her sometime and teach me some badassery!

          9. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Bless her heart. 😂 JK, I’m trying to learn some passive aggressiveness instead.

          10. K says:

            Whenever your ready, let me know. Badassery 101 is fun.

          11. MB says:

            K, I’mmmmm ready! I’mmmmm ready! As Spongebob says.

          12. Sweetest Perfection says:

            MB, I think the first lesson in badassery K is gonna give you will be to quit quoting Spongebob lol.

          13. MB says:

            SP, 😂😂😂 Anybody that lives at Bikini Bottom has got to be badass, yes?

          14. K says:

            Sweetest Perfection
            Ha ha ha…yeah, quoting Sponge Bob might not be a good idea when you are in the Bad Lands trying to look tough.

          15. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Ha ha, I can picture a sketchy bar in the middle of nowhere in the South full of bikers and thugs and cutie pie MB quoting Sponge Bob. I’m sure they would love her empathic cuteness, but not sounding very badass to me. MB, you are adorable, you don’t need to change to badass!

          16. MB says:

            SP, I guess I have a long way to go in the badassery department! Hopefully K is up for the challenge.

          17. K says:

            Perfect, we will start with How to Lose the Guilt in Three Easy Steps and How to Be a Wise-ass before proceeding to Moral Flexibility and Rule Breaking.

          18. MB says:

            K, I’ve already started on the Moral Flexibility 😜 If you can teach me how to lose the guilt, I’ll pay good money!

          19. K says:

            Perfect, I don’t have time to debate morality. And my lessons are free, we will start with compartmentalization and work our way up from there.

          20. MB says:

            K, I’m packing now. Badass Boot Camp or bust!

          21. K says:

            Ha ha ha…pack some brass knuckles (we won’t be using them; it’s just for show). We will use piloerection to appear intimidating and aggressive.
            Fake it till you make it.

          22. MB says:

            K, “piloerection” 😳 I think I’m going to enjoy this! Ha ha

          23. K says:

            ha ha ha…you will most certainly have fun piloerecting!

          24. K says:

            Sweetest Perfection
            Ha ha ha….thanks for the laugh! I am either straight up fuel or challenge fuel.

          25. windstorm says:

            Yep. You’ve nailed “bless your heart.” And “bless his/her heart” is the same

      8. QQ says:

        Have any of your former or current sources suspected you as the author of this site? Or does anyone outside of the good doctors and family know but still maintain your secret? If not, your secretive skills on such a large scale are truly amazing.

        1. HG Tudor says:


      9. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        I have no doubt, HG, that you have plenty of accomplishments in which to impress the new lady.

      10. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        K, your IS handle is cute/clever.

        1. K says:

          Ha ha ha…thanks! K was denied and someone already had theletterafterj so I had to settle for theletterbeforel.

    3. Renarde says:

      Narcissists would likely all kill each other without our enforcement of peace and order.

      Question. Whom do you think is actually running society? Clue; it’s not the Es and nor are they about maintaining the balance either. The most Es can do is to smooth it out at the edges and restore some parity but usually only at a micro-level and not at a macro one.

      This is why HG’s asserting NPD is at 1:6 is so VERY significant.

      1. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        With all due respect (😉) I disagree, Renarde. Of course, I was trying to make a point in a facetious manner… trying to make my imaginary village better than Fuletania… or wherever HG was going to put us non-blondes.

        Obviously, I agree with you, Renarde, in the fact that many narcissists are very talented and capable. And since we all have narcissistic qualities, I wouldn’t be surprised if HG’s estimation of NP @ 1:6 isn’t close to accurate. Absolutely, we all benefit from CERTAIN narcissistic characteristics.

        I wouldn’t be here seeking HG’s advice if I didn’t respect him. But I do disagree with the statement that “the most Es can do is to smooth it out at the edges and restore some parity but usually only at a micro-level and not at a macro one.” – Renarde

        I know MANY empathic men and women who are quite skilled and successful, who exhibit strong leadership in micro and macro aspects of life. I sense many of those talented folks are followers of this blog. I truly “see” such strength and intelligence in these men and women… in my profession, in my personal life, and most certainly here at Narcsite.

        I “love” all people, Renarde. So if my tongue-in-cheek addition to the SMH/Tudor debate insulted you… all I can say is… bless your heart… I sure didn’t mean it that way.

        1. Renarde says:

          Hey there. No, not offended at all (those days are long gone that I would vent openly) and I relish the opportunity to really get to the heart of what’s going on.

          It strikes me that there is a very good opportunity for an intelligent debate here which I would like the opportunity to carry on?

          I need to define what I mean by ‘micro’ and ‘macro’ and I’ll start with macro first. Macro is the ability to set policy at a national and global level. These are laws, rules, policies and procedures that bind us all to the ‘straight and narrow’. For example, a recent case in the media had an extremely strong medical case attested to by numerous Drs, have his disability claim refused. It hit the headlines. What on earth is actually happening? It’s meddling.

          I place myself (as an ex scientist and engineer and more importantly an educator) as an empath who has worked for decades as a professional.
          You do indeed see normals and some emps in positions of ‘micro’ power. they can effect change but only on a restricted, local level. That is not ‘real’ power; it’s the smoothing out effect. or to put it another way; the parable of the three wise monkeys.
          Again, I want to be clear on the 1:6 stat. It is my perception that this is not about traits, it’s about people who are suffering from NPD. That is very sigificant as it means ~17% hold no affective empathy.

          How can society effectively stand by and utterly ignore monumental abuses of power. Ref: Various Catholic Church scandals, endemic corruption in the highest levels of government (Chilcot, Iraq 2 and the ‘Dodgy Dossier’). Hell, even Trump getting into power. I postulate this; society itself displays utterly avoidant behaviours. That’s human nature itself. I do it. I know I do it. We all do it so a certain extent.

          Most Ns can never be aware of their own true nature. Genuinely perceiving themselves to be ‘decent’. They hold micro and sometimes macro positons of power within the system itself. The system is all of us of course with set models of behaviour so that the system always rights itselfs. or as I wonder; folds back in on itself. Just like a MMR will do as they desperately try to prove to their conscience that they are ‘good people’ Most do a very good job of hiding it from themselves and from other external observers.

          It’s the Greaters we should be worying about because some of them are operating as ’eminence grises’ and wielding the true power behind the throne. Utterly unencumbered by empathy and being not only content with this but deploying manipulations with a long term plan and methodology, it’s they would should be concerning us. Distraction.

          Alas with your last phrase, that you love all? I hope that my SEM credentials are fully attested to now (good god, that’s an open invitation!) that as one E to another, I cannot agree with you. I am free to love who I please. It’s not a yoke around my neck.
          I truly belive in the concept of unconditional love but when it becomes clear that I am being abused, that my precious gift is scorned than I can and will withdraw. Some of that love will linger but it becomes very hard to love your own abuser when it becomes so blatantly obvious. Love indeed can be condiotnal on behaviours. To love blindly is not a great place to be in. Love can and sometimes will die. I do know that I hold unconditional love for my children and that will never die.
          I can feel and empathise with NPD sufferers but it doesn’t mean to say that I am required to help or heal them in any way.
          I think this is a really important point as it helps with our own healing.

          Fundamentally, this is why ‘conscious raising’ is so important. It’s already happening thank God. Hopefully, it will continue.

      2. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        I understand your original post better now, Renarde. Thank you for taking the time to explain in such detail. You offered many valid situations where our world has been affected by this abuse of power. Know that I stand with you in your concerns.

        I still see empaths as having a greater role in the betterment of this world, however, even on a corporate, law-making level. But you are correct. If I’m understanding you right… in that most highly empathic individuals don’t have the guts for the nitty-gritty dirty work that’s often required… I agree.
        It just ain’t our thing.
        But it can be.

        On only a minimal-micro-level, I had an encounter that represents this dog-eat-dog world. Last summer, my neighbors were riding bikes down my winding, country road with their family dog tagging along. To make a long story short, the neighbor’s dog came all the way up my driveway in effort to continue to bark at my dog. My poor dog, Ruby, kept sitting down, turning her back as if to say, “I dont want to fight you.” The neighbor’s dog wouldn’t back up, coming deeper into my yard

        I ordered my dog onto the porch. When the neighbor’s dog got close to my porch, Ruby stood her ground. So… the little bitch came up onto my porch and tried to bite my dog. Then it was game on! It was like in the movie, The Matrix. Ruby and the bitch went up into the air and locked-up tight. The neighbors were screaming for me to get my dog. Their kids were all crying. The neighbor took my broom and started hitting my dog, but Ruby was too focused to notice. My neighbors were frantic, turning on my water hose to spray the dogs, which was ineffective, completely unnoticed by the brawling animals. Teeth seemed to be everywhere and blood was a slingin’. Out of everyone in the yard, who was the one brave enough to get in between two fighting dogs?

        Me… the emotional empath.
        And let me add that it took a bit of courage as I thought my odds of avoiding a few bites would be slim to none. But I calmly walked up to the baring-teeth canines and broke up the fight. I got bloody in the process, but the job got done.

        Of course, once freed…. they were right back at it again. And let me add that this girl-fight was more intense than any two males I’ve ever seen. I wanted to let the dogs fight it out a bit, as I knew that once my dog had the aggressive dog pinned down… in the death hold, with teeth tightly around her neck, that it would earn Ruby a bit of respect. (“Don’t come up my long driveway and attack me on my porch with my owner standing right there!”) But everybody was screaming and crying. The little kids were obviously being traumatized, so I got in there again… did the job that nobody else wanted to do. And I like to think that I did it with the precision of a narcissist. Thank. You. Very. Much. 😆😞

        Definitely not a macro-example… but I believe that everyone is capable of stepping up to the plate. Of course, narcissists WOULD survive without us. I was only teasing in my previous post. Back when we humans were trying to establish civilization, I’d say most of our ancestors were high on the narcissistic scale… probably a 1:2 ratio then… We sorta had to be to survive, to a certain extinct.

        I have more to say on the “love” topic too, but I gotta get back to work. Still, I will get back with you, Renarde. It was interesting reading your post, and I look forward to learning more about your views.

        Until I can return, have a good day (or evening if that suits your current time zone). Take Care…

        1. Renarde says:

          If I’m understanding you right… in that most highly empathic individuals don’t have the guts for the nitty-gritty dirty work that’s often required… I agree.

          Possibly a combination of not having the stomach for it and also being mired down in their personal lives because they are being abused. A lot of Es will have children, I’d suspect as a ratio it’s higher than the normals group itself. That is just speculation but it’s an intriguing one, no? Out of that, one can also draw more conclusions as to why an E would be reluctant to get involved.

          Can everyone step up to the plate? I don’t think so, sadly. Not everyone. I think a certain school would find it really hard actually. Let’s ponder which school that might be…

          Looking forward to hearing your views on love there.

          1. Twilight says:


            “Can everyone step up to the plate? I don’t think so, sadly. Not everyone. I think a certain school would find it really hard actually. Let’s ponder which school that might be…”

            Which school do you believe would find it really hard?

          2. Renarde says:

            I think it would be the Middle’s Twilight.

      3. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Oh, and I realized that you were actually referring to NPD (the disorder) in your ratio – 1:6 / 16.6666… %. My “N” must have been auto-kicked out of there as I see that I only listed NP. I didn’t mean to just assume narcasism or high narcissistic traits in general… because God only knows how high that percentage is?!

        TTYL ☺

        1. Renarde says:

          100% as everyone hold’s the traits.

      4. mommypino says:


        I think that it is an oversimplification to say the Ns are running our society and the most Es can do is to smooth it out at the edges at a micro-level. We can’t forget that majority of people are actually Normals, some are highly narcissistic and those narcissistic traits that are still on the healthy side that helped get them to leadership roles. Ns are probably overrepresented in the macro level of politics but that doesn’t mean that they are running society. Society will not function if we do not have honest law enforcers, teachers, doctors etc. who really care. Trump may be my president and he is a narcissist but he only affects my life marginally. I mostly depend on other members of my society to have a good quality of life. I depend on the nurse and pediatrician who take care of my kids; the empathic day care owner who watches my kids some days of the week, etc. Also, the Ns in politics are the higher functioning one, a lot of Ns are so debilitated with their personality disorder that they end up living lives that are basically just wasted.
        Also we cannot say with full certainty that empaths do not make an impact in the macro level as we do not personally know a lot of these historical figures or leaders to be able to really asses whether they are empaths or not. Rosa Parks, Gandhi, Malala etc. have narcissistic traits that are high enough for them to believe that what they did matters significantly (at least to themselves before people saw what they did) but are we to say that the narcissistic trait was high enough to be NPD? I don’t think so.

        1. Renarde says:

          We can’t forget that majority of people are actually Normals, some are highly narcissistic and those narcissistic traits that are still on the healthy side that helped get them to leadership roles.

          They have N traits but they still have affective empathy which will create ET and reign in malignant behaviours. This will effectively ‘cap’ them in their career at some point.

          Ns are probably overrepresented in the macro level of politics but that doesn’t mean that they are running society.

          They aren’t: the Greaters are. Middles just think they are. A difference.

          Society will not function if we do not have honest law enforcers, teachers, doctors etc. who really care.

          This is a dangerous concept. People do things largely because they are afraid of the repercussions of NOT doing their job. Most toe the party line. Yes, there are genuine honest and decent people out there but they are in the minority. Most people just do ‘enough’.

          Trump may be my president and he is a narcissist but he only affects my life marginally.

          Yeah…Good luck with that one!

          I mostly depend on other members of my society to have a good quality of life. I depend on the nurse and pediatrician who take care of my kids; the empathic day care owner who watches my kids some days of the week, etc.

          I’d say, there is a great risk of putting your faith in the wrong people.

          Also, the Ns in politics are the higher functioning one

          Agreed by the very definition of the concept.

          Also we cannot say with full certainty that empaths do not make an impact in the macro level as we do not personally know a lot of these historical figures or leaders to be able to really asses whether they are empaths or not. Rosa Parks, Gandhi, Malala etc. have narcissistic traits that are high enough for them to believe that what they did matters significantly (at least to themselves before people saw what they did) but are we to say that the narcissistic trait was high enough to be NPD? I don’t think so.

          I think it’s irrelevant if those figures reference are N, norm or E. This are displaying the concept of affective empathy even if they do not possess it.

          There was a discussion on here that was fascinating about what we perceive morality as. I don’t want to rehash it. Largely, most of the time, society does what it expected of it rather than doing it because it’s the right thing to do.

          This concept nearly broke me, which is probably why I didn’t chip in even though I wanted to. That there are so many people out there who are simply in it for as much as they can get and everyone else can go fuck themselves. It was like nails down a blackboard as it jarred utterly with my own perception of doing the right thing, using a moral compass, being decent, helping others with no thought for oneself. Justice.

          Took me months to get that one. In the end, I realised the way to end this cognitive dissonance, remove this prison I was in, was to simply to walk out of the door and accept it as fact. Strangely, the door had been open all along…

          1. K says:

            It is all about the facade, the ultimate manipulation that allows these people to function in places of power. It is fucking brilliant.

          2. Renarde says:

            It is brilliant but enlightenment can be blinding.

          3. K says:

            Enlightenment is blinding, however, very few people are enlightened so they are completely fooled by the facade.

            The BTK killer was a family man, went to church, was a scout leader and worked full time at ADT Security Services. People were shocked when he was arrested for murdering ten people. I think he will be portrayed on the next season of Mindhunter (netflix).

          4. Renarde says:

            The damage to my eyes is slowly being repaired. Tricksy though, that one!

            I utterly take our point on BTK and of course it’s all just going on under the surface. Bundys’ another one. UK had Dennis Neilson of course and the Yorkshire Ripper evaded capture for years.

      5. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Renarde, I might not be the best person for you to debate! Sometimes I don’t even make sense to myself! I meant to say that I left the “D” out of NPD not the “N” and I should have stated … to a certain extent* not extinct. Not sure if that was autocorrect or some sort of Freudian slip as I do wonder if our “ways” will eventually cause our own extinction? I just wish I could put my typos on the endangered species list. (Pretty sure my multi-tasking ways don’t help to improve that matter.)

        And I know it probably seemed like I went way off course with my doggy story. 🐕 You’re probably thinking, “That’ll be the last time I question that rambling chick on anything she says!” 😯

        But I had a point in mind. I really did… Even a docile dog who doesn’t wish to fight will easily engage once the circumstances are right. I think that’s the possibility of both the empath and the narcissist… that we are capable to behave outside of our ordinary when needed. So despite my inability to successfully relay my sarcastic tendencies through text, I really wasn’t trying to come off as E vs. N and we’re gonna stomp their…
        Well, maybe I was a little. 😔
        But how I truly feel is… an exclusive society of both would likely survive just fine without the other. We both would adapt and adopt new behaviors accordingly. The world just wouldn’t be as effective or exciting without the mix.

        [I have a lot of thoughts about love and will address that when I can focus more as it’s been a long, busy day. But I certainly understand your views there and respect the healthy way you approach matters of the heart. So please give me an extension on that discussion? ☺]

      6. mommypino says:

        Hi Renarde,

        You have raised a lot of interesting points, and I agree with some of them.

        “They have N traits but they still have affective empathy which will create ET and reign in malignant behaviours. This will effectively ‘cap’ them in their career at some point.”

        I am having a hard time agreeing with you on this one. I will agree on the part that narcissists have an edge in politics over empaths because they are unique that their disorder actually uses negative attention to fuel them whereas negative attention/press/criticisms would be problematic or painful for empaths and cause them to disengage. But I believe that there are empaths who could be so invested and passionate about something that they believe is more important than themselves, a greater good, that will make them choose to sacrifice themselves and stay and keep fighting. And if it is meant to be, meaning the circumstances are just perfect, that empathy could succeed and get into power in the macro stage.

        To a certain extent, empathy can cap or put limitations into what we are willing to do. Myself for example, since I am now relating almost everything to narcissism, I was imagining if I was at the wagon train expedition of the Donner party, if I would be willing to eat the remains of my loved ones to survive. My answer is no. I would rather starve and die. The dignity of the remains of my loved ones are too important for me, more important than my own survival. So in that hypothetical instance, the empathy or ET has limited my ability to survive. It doesn’t mean that I will not survive. I will probably try hard to find other ways to eat and maybe I will make it. But my chances are reduced. But I can see myself killing someone who would try to harm my loved ones in order to protect them. I don’t think that I would even think twice. I might even fry that person after killing that person and me and my loved ones can eat him. In that instance, my empathy is suspended because in my mind, killing is necessary for the greater good.

        My father for example, I believe that he was an empathy, he was a sniper during WW2 and he killed a lot of Nazis when they were defending Italy. He actually pointed his gun and killed as many as he could. He killed a Nazi sniper as well who was shooting at them. He said that they had to go through a dark tunnel full of dead bodies and they were literally stepping on the dead bodies. When they came out he realized that one of them was missing so he went back and found this 18 yr old soldier just crying and looked like he lost his mind so my dad carried him out of that tunnel. I think those were moments were an empath was able to suspend E.T. and commit acts that were not empathic in order for the greater good to prevail.

        I just don’t believe that there is a limitation to what a person can achieve when that person really puts his mind and heart to it. But again, this is probably just my E.T. talking.

        I think I have other thoughts that I want to add but I need to go.

        Also, I would like to ask, what is ‘conscious raising’?

        1. Renarde says:

          Thank you for you comment.

          But I’m going to disagree. Any area in the workplace is part of the system itself. The system always folds back to protect itself; kind of like a hive mind. This is part of the reason that why a few years ago, positive discrimination was all the rage. Get quotas for minorities such as non-whites/women etcs. Don’t want to debate the right’s and wrongs of PD here though.

          I think there are two things here; what we wish the world to be – a Utopian paradise where a beggar on the streets has the same chance of becoming President as an Ivy League graduate and what the reality of the system is. The notion that with a little bit of hard work and application, we can achieve anything is one that FDR was largely responsible for in the depression of the ’30s. It also illustrates perhaps the difference in thinking between the US and the UK.

          The limitation is not what we can perceive we can do in our heads it’s what others’ allow us to do. Someone is always in control.

          Empaths whilst by our nature are very easily mannipulated will often bite back and hard against another who tries to make them cross their morale code. There are exceptions to this which are perfectly illustrated in the Empath poll with DE/DLS’s coming out in extraordinarily high numbers.

          Political office is rarely about how ethically sound someone is but how unethically sound someone is. Or to put it another way, how easy it is to blackmail someone. If you can blackmail them; you control their sorry arses.

          It’s really quite difficult to get an Empath to do something which would warrant being a blackmail risk so that too will be a driver in if they are selected to run for office. There are also other factors such as the ‘Old Boys Network’ which are at play.

          That’s why it is so hard for Empaths to get into these top areas and affect real change. Even if they could, they would literally be the ‘lone sheep’.

          Sorry for typo on conscious raising, should be ‘consciousness raising’. This is things such as #metoo – big ideas which spread at grassroots level. So an example is of course this site where it’s being screamed out that 1 in 6 people are narcs.

          1. windstorm says:

            I understand your argument and see much truth in it. I do wonder, however, how the culture difference here in the US affects it. I suspect, although I could be wrong, that Americans are more oppositional by nature than the British. That we are often more distrusting of government and any leaders or bosses. And that we cling very stubbornly to our own beliefs and ways of life, with little regard to others opinions. That is certainly how people are where I live. Narcs may be in power and making the rules, but we are the ones who chose whether or not to follow them. And very often we chose not.

          2. Renarde says:

            I take your point on that there may well be differences between the US and the UK mentalities.

            I’m not sure I am following the ‘very often we don’t follow the rules’ as there would be anarchy? Surely?

          3. windstorm says:

            As to the comment that very often we don’t follow the rules, I was referring to the common practice of viewing laws more like guidelines – suggestions more than actual rules. While many people may abide by all laws of which they are aware, I doubt the majority do. Certainly not here where I live.

            For instance, I would consider myself a very law abiding person. The maximum speed limit on most roads here is 55 mph. I routinely drive up to 70-72 in many places. In my county, the sheriff isn’t going to risk alienating registered voters by giving speeding tickets.
            Bootlegging alcohol (purchasing alcohol is illegal here) is left alone. Illegal cock fighting goes on, illegal drug sales, illegal gambling of all kinds. Basically we do what we want in our county and thumb our nose at laws that come from Frankfort (our state capital).

            Further many states resent federal laws and rules from Washington. They may be enforced, but if they can be evaded, they will be by many. “What does the government in Washington know about what’s best for our situation anyway?” is often the point of view. And it is a true one, because the United States is so large and diverse, with so many totally different mini cultures and geographical differences. A law that works well in Miami, Florida may be totally stupid in rural Nebraska. And if it is, I guarantee you that many Nebraskans will ignore that law, if possible.

            I guess the bottom line is this: 1. Do you believe this law is important? Or 2. Do you believe something really bad will happen to you if you break this law?
            If you answer yes to either of those, then you will probably follow the law, but if you don’t? Why follow rules/laws that are stupid and have no real consequence if you break them? That doesn’t make sense to a lot of people.

            Does this result in anarchy? I don’t think so. Maybe you would. I do believe it results in a lot of independence, personal freedom and personal responsibility.

          4. Renarde says:

            Dear Windstorm

            Thank you for your clarification on your own culture. I honestly hadn’t thought that ideology had become so entrenched. What you describe is un-good and I’m sure you can see that? I do not mean this to sound as if I’m judging, I’m not but I am asking you to step outside of the narrative and consider a few differing scenarios.

            Fact of the matter is, a lot of laws are actually quite sensible when you get down to brass tacks. Most reasonable people accept the rule of law because it makes sense.

            Take speeding. I have been known to have got the odd ticket -all discharged (I hasten to add) because I learned my lesson; it was dangerous.

            When I got caught; I was annoyed because my speeding fines were very much 34/35 in a 30 zone. All of them. I was annoyed with myself. But actually it was a really important lesson. The chances of life or death to a pedestrian who is hit by a car between 30 and 40 mph are life changing. Hit them at above 50 mph and they are fucked. Usually.

            That such a little difference, 1 mph could mean probably living but with permanent and critical damage is a very sobering thought indeed.

            If we apply this to your situation, where people are arbitrarily obeying laws because they know the Sheriff is bent; then you my friend, are teetering.

            Habeas corpus has long since been able to be applied. You are a whiskers’ width away from disaloution. Frightening.

            Anarchy is bubbling under the surface. If we cannot trust the people to enforce the will of the proletariat then we are really fucked.

            A vacuum always sucks in. Who will be sucked into the vortex next? I’m sure we have been here before….


          5. windstorm says:

            No, I really don’t see a problem. And anarchy may well be bubbling under the surface. But that’s just the nature of a country that is populated by people and their descendants who left their home countries because they were dissatisfied with their government. It is only natural that these people will retain and teach their children to constantly question the government and defy it when needed.

            “If we cannot trust the people to enforce the will of the proletariat then we are really fucked.”

            I think we differ here on “will of the proletariat.” We dont necessarily see laws as expressing the will of all workers. Many laws are knee-jerk reactions resultant from a catastrophic event or result from an irrational or narrow-minded faction of congress who gained power long enough to enact them. And then there are the many laws who’s purpose no longer exists or address a problem not present in all areas.

            Back to the speeding laws. Your example of one mph making a life-changing difference in an accident may well be true in a highly urban area where many people are pedestrians. I, however, live in a very rural area where I can drive the roads everyday for months and never see a single pedestrian. I daily drive for many miles at a stretch and never see another car. Was the speed limit law created for such driving conditions- no. Blindly following laws that don’t apply to one’s current situation serves no one.

            Americans don’t really see the government as a benevolent representation of the people’s best interest. We see the government as a powerful force that must be constantly watched and monitored to keep it in line.

            “ Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom.” The government can never just be trusted implicitly, because it is composed of ordinary people like you and me. Ordinary people make mistakes, they misunderstand situations, they don’t always foresee consequences – and since that’s who makes up the government, it’s subject to these same shortcomings. Blindly following anyone or their rules and laws is quite frankly – unAmerican.

          6. MB says:

            WS, you said it beautifully. America is the land of the FREE and the home of the BRAVE! 🇺🇸

          7. WhoCares says:


            This was so well articulated.

          8. windstorm says:

            Thank you, WhoCares! I think we just think very differently here in America than people do in other countries. Our system may scandalize them, but theirs would probably scandalize us, too! I can’t imagine living somewhere I was expected to blindly follow someone else’s rules. Skepticism and individual thought are far too ingrained in my character.

          9. WhoCares says:


            “Skepticism and individual thought are far too ingrained in my character.”

            It’s definitely part of the Canadian identity too – we’re just happy to let our neighbors to the south have more attention for being that way 😉

          10. Renarde says:

            Many laws are knee-jerk reactions resultant from a catastrophic event or result from an irrational or narrow-minded faction of congress who gained power long enough to enact them.

            Yeah – we see that too. Some of the legislation (both real and proposed) coming out of the states is dreadful and shameful. Then again, you also are can be extremely progressive.

            As to speeding, the 30/40 mph zone is true wherever you are (unless the laws of physics have changed). I do take your point that the geography between the US and the UK is utterly different. However, the logical conclusion to your argument is that if I’m not being watched, it’s OK to break that law. Actually, ethically, it isn’t OK. Why bother having them in the first place?

            Problem with having a law enforcer, let’s call him Sheriff Bob in place who is not only bent as a nine bob note everyone knows he’s bent as well, is that Bob is following a different moral and ethical code.

            Bob likes doughnuts.

            Bob has a nephew called Cleetis. Cleetis is a LVN and one day, the target he had been drooling over for about a week goes missing. Everyone suspects Cleetis. Cleetis is indeed guilty.

            Cleetis buys off Bob with a couple of dozen Krispy Kremes. Bob frigs the murder investigation (why should he care, he’s been getting away with shonky shit for all of his life). Everyone knows, the town is heartbroken and there is not justice for the girl or her family.

            The town willfully turned a blind eye to the breaking of laws when it was in their best interests. Now that it isn’t; their uproar.

            Do you see my point? I’m sure that pretty much everyone has broken a law from time to time and most of us don’t get caught. That’s not the issue, it’s tolerating the corrupt ones in office. This is three wise monkeys and is part of how people who abuse get away with it.

          11. windstorm says:

            Corrupt politicians can be voted out. If the people in Sheriff Bob’s county don’t like his actions, they can and will vote him out. In such a case as you describe, the family would hit the news media. KY State Police will be called in.

            But for minor law breaking that the majority of people in the county don’t mind, it is ignored. But that’s the point. The majority of the people don’t mind. We run off general opinion. While 35mph may statistically seem safest, if anyone drove that slow on the open road, they would be a traffic hazard. Even people driving the speed limit are driving hazards, because people behind them get so frustrated and angry. Everyone will be passing them, some dangerously because of their frustration and more accidents will happen.

            Corrupt people in office are tolerated because the majority of what they do is what the majority of the people in their district want done. If that changes and people no longer want them, they are voted out.

          12. Renarde says:

            Corrupt people in office are tolerated because the majority of what they do is what the majority of the people in their district want done. If that changes and people no longer want them, they are voted out.,/em>

            I largely agree with this except it’s another example of the system folding back in on itself. What if the nest one is just as bad. And so on.

          13. windstorm says:

            Then you vote him out and try another. It’s certainly not a perfect system, to be sure. It is very obnoxious to be stuck with an incompetent idiot until his term expires. I’m on a 12 hr car drive and can’t look it up, but didn’t Churchill have a good quote about democracy being a terrible flawed system except that it was better than all the other systems?

            Enjoyed talking with you. Hope you have a good day. I need to focus on the road.

          14. MB says:

            WS, watch out for those pedestrians!

          15. windstorm says:

            Ha, ha. It’s deer I have to watch out for. That’s who’s likely to be in my road!

          16. Lou says:

            I love that quote from Churchill.

          17. K says:

            Exactly different perspectives AND moral flexibility, now who wants to go to a cock fight?

          18. SMH says:

            Windstorm, I agree about the differences. The other difference – maybe connected – is that the US political system is extremely decentralized, which perhaps goes with the ethos of individualism that is much more prominent there than in the UK, where the system is very centralized (I live in both places). In the UK I am seen as very oppositional but really feel that I am just a normal American. I have problems because people do not understand my manner (very direct) or my way of being (do not ask me to do something that is a waste of my friggin’ time) and get annoyed when I question things. But I don’t care because I am American and couldn’t give two shits what anyone thinks 🙂

          19. windstorm says:

            Ha, ha, SMH! I know what you mean. Personal freedom is everything!

          20. K says:

            Ha ha ha…that’s the spirit SMH!

        2. NarcAngel says:

          Is anyone else concerned about Mommypino’s obsession with cannabalism? All I know is – I wouldn’t eat the pork rinds at her house, and those lamp shades might not be parchment……

          1. WhoCares says:

            NA – you slay me!

            Wait – I wonder if I taste good with lentils..?


          2. MB says:

            WC, I’m safe. Nobody wants that pesky glitter in their teeth! #somebodygetmethefloss

          3. WhoCares says:

            Hahaha MB – you’re so right re: glitter in the teeth…glitter-free food would be the first preference – see; you have special defenses and didn’t even know it! Glitter Power!

          4. NarcAngel says:

            You probably taste OF lentils. Will you instruct that your ashes be scattered (over soup) at Tim Hortons?

          5. WhoCares says:

            Hahaha NA,

            People already wonder what Timmy’s puts in their coffee to make it so ‘addictive’… now they’ll be wondering…’What’s that new seasoning in your lentil soup…it’s…different.’

      7. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Mommypino, I agree with much of what you said. I appreciate the “help” as you did a fine job of relaying the argument for leaders who make tough decisions while also exhibiting empathic qualities.

        I had many of your same thoughs, Mommypino…. but I could sense that if I threw out point after point, that Renarde would break it down, Tudor-style, and would likely disagree…. Tudor-style. ☺

        So I opted to tell a story, my wannabe parable, if you will, hoping my point of how we all can show strength and aggression when provoked (Ruby) would stir up a little empathic respect. While a sensitive soul might not start a fight, beware that she might be more than capable of ending it. (Ruby vs. Bitch. Please know I’m referring to a real bitch – 🐕)

        I was also trying to show how blubbering empaths can pull their shit together and often be the most calm, clear-headed one in the group (Me 🏆😊… at least that one summer day).

        Now Renarde, please don’t take my statement above wrong. I love the way you are very analytical. I love (❤) thinkers and your intelligence is apparant. I appreciate the manner in which you express your opinions. It reminds me so much of the way HG spouts off his thoughts… numbering his concise, direct answers. (I need to earn a thing or two about that style.)

        Renarde, we both already established that we agree that we all have narcissistic traits. When I said “only God knows” how high that number would be, I was thinking of those high on the narcissistic scale… basically narcissists shy of the disorder.

        But if we truly are at roughly 17% NPD (got the “D” in there that time, Renarde ☺) then it is hard for me to assume that 83% of society is just passing through the motions, waiting for instruction from the all-powerful Narcs.

        (I just now heard the scrapping sound all the way over here… of HG’s eyeballs rolling inside his head as he mutters to himself that he has a school full of empaths who do just that! And we do. We depend on his instruction as HG is needed, but please bear with me as I try to make my point.)

        Like Mommypino implied… how do we know which leaders exhibit which traits… between normals and the remaining empaths as on any given day, we might show one trait more than the other? Renarde, you say that it doesn’t matter as showing any empathy would basically group us together. I think that makes the point of the 83% even more solid… that “they/us” by sheer force of numbers, are having a huge impact on society, even on a “macro” level. As Mommy-P stated…. I don’t think that just because an individual isn’t a president or a king… it doesn’t mean their impact isn’t huge. Actually, it’s often a grassroots movement that move things the most.

        What I’m trying to say is… we ALL matter. (Not that you were trying to say we don’t, Renarde.) But keep in mind that so much about these disorders are based upon the subject that got this whole debate started… PERCEPTION.

        Basically, all humans can experience anxiety, but what makes it a disorder for some… a medical diagnosis requiring therapy or medication? In part, it’s how it manifests… how it affects our activities of daily living… how it is perceived by the individual who is affected, and more often, how it affects those who have to “live” with the affected individual?! Our opinions vary so greatly because that’s what perception does…

        It makes me say that I feel “right” since my perception is exactly as I see it. 👀😄

        And K is right… don’t forget the facade…

        Of course narcissists want us to think that THEY are the best leaders… They are, after all, highly narcissistic! 😃

        1. Renarde says:

          But if we truly are at roughly 17% NPD (got the “D” in there that time, Renarde ☺) then it is hard for me to assume that 83% of society is just passing through the motions, waiting for instruction from the all-powerful Narcs.

          There it is. Precisely. All of us are under control. It’s everywhere. Can we say, with any certainty, that our own thoughts are actually our own and are not manifestations of someone else’s desires?

          For example, take two manipulations, the love bomb and the gaslight. You know that the initial premise of these is actually really quite clumsy, both are so so obvious. They work because the aim is in accordance with the Es desires. They want it to be true so they belive it to be so.

          All of us on here are by definition ‘weaponised’. So, how many of us have had a conversation with a narc, let’s say one of a high cognitive function. Ever noticed how sometimes this ‘shift’ a conversation into an area they have control over or maybe turn the conversation onto another topic. Not all are skilled at this but some are and it happens very very subtly indeed. If you are not watching for it you might well miss it.

          Yes, we are in the majority but 17% is an extremely sizable minority. THIS is the illusion itself; that democracy works (it doesn’t the system is already loaded). People really want to believe that the vote matters. It doesn’t, never has. The government always get’s in. Who is the government? Why, it’s the civil service.

      8. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Perspective* not perception… not that it doesn’t also apply.

        See Renarde, I warned you I’m not very good at this.

      9. mommypino says:

        “MP- Ns are probably overrepresented in the macro level of politics but that doesn’t mean that they are running society.

        R- They aren’t: the Greaters are. Middles just think they are. A difference.”

        I said Ns because I was reacting to your statement that Ns are running society, but I really meant the higher functioning ones. In fact I did say that the Ns in politics are the higher functioning ones. Although we also have Upper Lessers that reach the top such as Trump and the current president of the Philippines and also other countries in other developing or dictatorial nations.

        1. Renarde says:

          Loving how you’ve conflated Trump with other other developing or dictatorial nations! Speaks volumes!

          Ah, Trump would love to be a dictator. But he’s not.

          I’m taking your point on the higher functioning ones but that does rather imply a sliding scale. Of course we know that it’s not. There is a clear boundary between being aware and not being aware. It is important to be precise, I think.

      10. nunya biz says:

        I want to read over this entire discussion as I’ve only caught pieces, but I really wanted to say I agree with your post about rules, WS. I tend to rebel against anything that smacks of dogma instinctively, though it can sneak by me, and I hate rules that are merely paternalistic and restrict my freedom to fuck up.

      11. nunya biz says:

        “For example, take two manipulations, the love bomb and the gaslight. You know that the initial premise of these is actually really quite clumsy, both are so so obvious. They work because the aim is in accordance with the Es desires. They want it to be true so they belive it to be so.”

        Yes, BUT…
        Huge but, and something I’ve frequently contemplated as it is the very source of my fatal error…

        It IS so.
        In it’s own way. This is where I think the difference must be understood by everyone, every person, everywhere.

        They do it because they do “like” you, want you around, want to be near you. They need you. HG also talks about “jealousy”.
        The need to devalue is inevitable due to a completely different mechanism of prioritization revolving around control. So your needs cannot be met while theirs can.

        My mistake has always been being convinced of the underlying “fact” that even though they might be “doing it wrong” or “making mistakes” they are doing so because they are clearly interested in being there and care enough about me to try to be around which is somewhat true, I’m not a fool for thinking so, and which since I am not a narcissist, can be satisfying to me because I’m not an ego-maniac and I don’t wish to hurt anyone really. Once I’m attached they can then go on to increase the hurtful actions that don’t at all interfere with their needs being met and I end up paying while it makes perfect sense to them that as an object I would fall in line. And then anything I do to stop myself from being hurt, having my will, needs and desires ignored, is called out by them as selfish for my interfering with their needs being met.

        I’ve thought about it because I definitely think people behaving co-dependently have some defense in saying that they weren’t simply/only projecting, there really is some truth in believing that attention and love bombing indicate desire and “care”. We just really have to understand that they are focusing on things for entirely different reasons and it can only end badly because we do care differently in ways that are tied to not being selfish and objectifying, we believe that ultimately what’s best for someone else is important.

        Just thinking, I think it is somewhat related to how laws are decided and implemented, etc as well.
        Of course I certainly don’t support cock-fighting : P.

  17. WhoCares says:


    I think you can argue a lot things are right or wrong depending on the perspective. But the only examples I can think of to illustrate this are too emotionally charged.

    I laughed at your confirmation that ethics where you are would sound exactly like MB’s description! I live in a fairly religious community – although nothing like the bible belt I’m sure – and I do not share my personal views widely where I live.

    Also, I probably shouldn’t have laughed so hard at MB’s red neck comment because I live amongst many who might fit that description…

    1. MB says:

      WC and WS, nothing wrong with a redneck! They are some of the best and nicest people I know. Just don’t take them to the theater with you! They will get you thrown out for being uncouth.

      1. WhoCares says:


        I try not to judge a book by it’s cover. And where I am you may well find someone who looks like a red neck in attendance at the theater (it’s quite an eclectic community) and they are better behaved and more appreciative than some who consider themselves ‘cultured.’

  18. Nika says:

    I will always, and forever, love again.

  19. Mary says:

    With my online narc, I always knew it wasn’t a classic, healthy love. However, to me, it felt like a form of love. Very twisted, hot, sometimes even demeaning love, but also I felt accepted and wanted and desired. I loved how he made me feel, until I realized I was feeling bad and devalued and humiliated more than good. The highs were so far apart. During sexting, he used to throw in little things like “I want to ruin you for any other man.” This was hot because I wanted a lover who was that attentive and memorable. However, since ghosting him my sex drive has shut down. There was a brief window last year where it returned as my husband started WANTING sex and seemed to be raging less. When the raging got bad again at our dog, I realized that nothing has changed at all, and now sex repulses me. How messed up is that? I know HG’s post is about love, but this is part of the equation of intimate love.


  20. Joanne says:

    All interesting viewpoints on morality here…I feel like I am back in my university philosophy class!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Well at least everyone has refrained from calling someone else a Kant.

  21. Honey Bee says:

    HG Tudor
    January 23, 2019 at 11:41

    Time to play some Hadaway!

    I remember some other music and bands you’ve made a reference to, like Amanda and her crush on Simon le Bon from Duran Duran.
    If I had to make an educated guess I’d say you were born around 1970. How far off am I? Will he tell?

    1. Alma Jazzmin says:

      Perfect sound track for the narc: “Shine on your crazy diamond” by Pink Floyd.

      1. Alma Jazzmin says:

        And from the narc point of view: Feel by Robbie Williams… Maybe?

  22. marinathemermaid3 says:

    I have to say I am truly disappointed in the responses from the “empaths”. Is that all LOVE is to you, infatuation and fairytale romance? Wait, let me guess. Most of you are under the age of 30?

    1. Bubbles 🍾 says:

      Dearest marinathemermaid3,
      Mr Bubbles n I have known each other for over 50 years… happily married…. we “liked” each other first
      We’re basically retired, although Mr Bubbles dabbles in his work,… he luvs what he does and I care for my nearly 90 yo mum
      For us….” respect ” is paramount and a sense of humour
      Love is just a word
      It’s how you treat your partner that shows how much you care
      Respect for privacy, support, encouragement, building each other up not tearing them down, listening, being happy for them, no jealousy, sharing interests, similar values n morals, compatibility and we compliment each other in very positive ways and we always have “time” for each other
      We also agree to disagree, respectfully
      Even after half a century …. we still look forward to seeing each other when one walks thru the door
      Luv Bubbles xx 😘

  23. Mercy says:

    My love was never stolen because I never loved him. I never fully trusted him. Not even in the beginning.

    1. SMH says:


      What is love anyway? I am not sure that I know, despite what I wrote above. Sometimes I think I did love him and sometimes I think that if I do think I loved him then I don’t know what love is! I think he wanted me to love him because he once asked me if I had loved someone from my past I then spent 17 years not speaking to. I said I did not love that person. It was just infatuation.

      The closest I ever got to saying anything about it to MRN was that I thought we were in love with each other and then modifying that to say that I thought we were in love with THINGS about each other (this was in my more naive period). I have no idea if it was love or not on my end. I don’t think I am a love devotee but I am a fix it devotee.

      This post made me think of Lucinda Williams’ Steal Your Love, which always makes me think of MRN. ‘Did they lay down a law and lock up your heart – I’m gonna have to steal your love.’

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Time to play some Hadaway!

        1. SMH says:

          No idea what Hadaway means. Is it a person? A composer? A food?

          1. HG Tudor says:

            A pop star who had a hit with ‘What is love?’

          2. SMH says:

            Worth listening to?

          3. HG Tudor says:

            Hell yeah SMH we could throw some shapes and have a Moral Dance Off! Are you in?

          4. SMH says:

            You know I am in

          5. HG Tudor says:

            Ha ha.

      2. Mercy says:

        SMH, don’t get me started on “what is love”. Apparently I have strong opinions and didn’t even know. Ive been in 3 serious relationships. The first, my kids dad who is a lesser. I did not love him. I stayed because I was young and had three small children and thought I needed his help. Turns out I did better on my own. My second relationship was not with a narcissist. It was love but more of a friendship. Just something safe and comfortable. My third you know about. I remember sitting in my car in my driveway and getting a sweet text from him. I thought to myself “I love him”. I quickly squashed that thought. “you do not love this man”. How can you love someone that you cant trust? When every day you’re with him you wonder if it will be the last. Even before I knew about the other women, I didn’t trust him.

        “Sometimes I think I did love him and sometimes I think that if I do think I loved him then I don’t know what love it”. Love isn’t that complicated. It shouldn’t be a riddle. You shouldn’t have to guess and wonder. He was selfish by deceiving you into thinking you were the only one. Your feeling were based on lies. He never considered what his lies would do to you. He never considered your feelings at all.

        “Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth”

        Now I’m quoting the Bible. My father would be so proud…haha I have to get off this subject.

        Maybe we need to blame love so that we don’t have to face the uncomfortable truth that we were thoroughly mind fuck!

        1. SMH says:

          Ah Mercy,

          If I told you about all of my serious relationships you might be shocked. I am pretty sure I am a true serial monogamist but I only figured this out when I was with MRN. I can be in love/infatuated but transitioning to real love is another thing altogether. I think love is very complicated and I also think I value freedom and honesty over everything else. Maybe now I only purely love my kid (now kids).

          I was honest with MRN and he was not honest with me, but we are both fucked up, just in different ways. I don’t blame him for everything. A lot of people do ‘safe and comfortable’ but I don’t (for long) and it seems that you don’t either. That is okay. You didn’t do anything wrong by taking a risk and neither did I. The trick is to survive the fallout.

          Anyway, this is what I think today! Who knows what tomorrow will bring :).


          1. Mercy says:

            SMH, I love your attitude and I don’t you could shock me with your relationship stories.

            Speaking of love/infatuation I had a very cute guy randomly message me on Facebook last night. My first thought was “hmm I wonder what’s wrong with you” and I ignored. What is my problem?? I can’t get past the road block!

          2. SMH says:

            Mercy, Every step is a step in the right direction unless he was completely random. Was he a fake? I had someone try to friend me and message me. He was a friend of a friend and he had already gone through all my photos that he could see. He said something about it in his message and I was totally weirded out! But then he wasn’t cute! Go for it just for the practice.

          3. Mercy says:

            SMH, nope he wasn’t fake, we have a lot of mutual friends, but yes random. I like the idea of practice though. What holds me back is that BS used fb to get his women. His favorite was the Happy Birthday private message.

          4. SMH says:

            Mercy, Maybe even more reason to practice – so you stop associating BS with Facebook?

      3. marinathemermaid3 says:

        LOVE is not romantic infatuation.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          LOVE is an idea or concept. People have wildy different ideas and concepts. To pretend to be able to define it as something agreeable to everyone is beyond narcissistic – it’s delusional.

          1. Mercy says:

            Haha I agree NarcAngle and this is something I have learned right here in the last couple days through discussion. Love is defined by our own self.

      4. Sweetest Perfection says:

        HG, “baby don’t hurt me, don’t hurt me, no more…” I think it’s time we show this people some good music ha ha ha!!! https://g.co/kgs/FXwnaM

      5. Bibi says:

        If I could have one wish for this blog, it would be for WordPress to stop being such an asshole in how it ranks the comments. Cripes I wanted to respond to SMH but then I lost it, found it, then didn’t know where to interject. Oy.

        Anyway, I agree with what you say, SMH. When you wrote this: “It also reminds me of the lies my narc did tell me, including about his name, and the secretive way in which he behaved. I felt buried and suffocated and tired of being treated like a child.”

        I was amazed to see you also had a narc do a fake name! Now, going back to perspective, the Mid Ranger never thought he did anything wrong and tried to pass it off as his: ‘It’s my mother’s maiden name,’ etc. even though no one knew him by that name. He was a pathological liar. That’s not perspective but fact. He just flat out made shit up.

        He was SO secretive about everything. I never knew what was up, then when I would withdraw b/c I would call him out on his BS he accused me of ‘abandoning him.’ I could not win.

        He went on about my intellect and talent in the beginning but by the end he was speaking to me like I was a moron child. (Not moon child, but moron child. Haha.)

        1. SMH says:


          Sometimes I cannot find the reply thing either but if I put the person’s moniker in the message they usually find it. I often search on ‘SMH’ to find things (though some people write SMH because they really are shaking their heads).

          A few of us have had narcs lie about their names. It’s complicated how I figured out who mine was but I did. He didn’t lie about much else as far as I know, except about being divorced (just a small thing).

          I sent him an email with his real name to his fake emal, so I would have proof of who was behind the fake email – this was early on and I was already plotting and collecting evidence before I even knew there was an IPPS. He didn’t react at all except to apologize. He had a plausible excuse.

          I asked him if he wanted to know how I figured it out and he said no! Maybe because it would have wounded him.

          Once I pointed out that he was lying to both me and to IPPS and treating both of us like children and he said ‘how am I lying to my wife?’ Talk about deluded. To him, lies of ommission were not lies. Only lies of commission were lies.

          I would leave him all the time too (5 times to be precise) but he would hoover directly or indirectly until I broke NC.

          But we also had very good rapport – he is very, very smart, calm, excellent sense of humour, never criticized my personal qualities and our chemistry was off the charts, so there is that!!

          I had a trigger today and almost broke NC after 9 months…

  24. Joanne says:

    How do I get my heart back when the one who stole it no longer exists? How do I get back on track when I feel I can’t even direct my own heart where to go? Today is sad day 🙁

    1. 69Revolver says:

      It will mend. Your heart will knit itself back. Just like a cut on your body, over time it regenerates and the area is fresh and new.
      Your heart will be new. No, not the old heart but, do you really want it back considering what he’s done to it? You get to make the regrowth with what YOU want. Fill your heart with love, compassion and resilience. It will grow back even mightier than it was before!

      1. Joanne says:

        Thank you, 69Revolver. It’s just taking so long 🙁 Of course, I should probably stop picking the scab…

    2. marinathemermaid3 says:

      Love is all around you. Love the one you’re with.

      1. Joanne says:

        Marinathemermaid3, that’s exactly what I’m trying to do. Trying to love my husband and redirect my affections and loyalty and everything important back to him. But it’s as if there’s no heart IN me now. Or it’s at least not working properly to be able to give love to the one who I should.

      2. mommypino says:

        Joanne, I went through that feeling at first. Mine’s actually more embarrassing because I didn’t even have a relationship with the narc, it was just crush. I didn’t even get a golden whoopie from the narc. And yet my loyalty and devotion to my husband all of a sudden shifted to this narc. It was like my heart was stolen. So I tried to look at my husband the way I saw him when I had the biggest crush on him and it wasn’t working. Then I started realizing that i have had quite a bit of burried down resentments with my husband. So I started confronting him about those, we had fights and I demanded that I wanted couple’s therapy and even threatened with the “D” word. His alpha personality used to invalidate my complains that I was just too sensitive but the “D” word scared him so he listened and now he has changed and we’re back to our own version of our Golden Period. We are so happy and in love again. Maybe you need to look into your marriage and see if there was something hat was missing before the narc came. And maybe you can work on that with your husband.

        1. Joanne says:

          I can completely understand your situation with your narc, even if it was only a crush. These feelings are so powerful. I would never expect something that lasted 2 months would have me this spun up. It seems completely ridiculous. And your description on how your loyalty and devotion shifted is just how I feel. Even though it’s over, I feel like that is where my feelings remain (in some bizarre way). It’s good that you were able to identify issues within your marriage that led you in this direction – at least you could repair it. Outside of the normal, little, irritating things a spouse can do, mine does nothing wrong. He is an amazing guy who treats me well. I certainly was not looking for this narc’s attention (or anyone’s attention) but once it was there it was so hard to look away. I’m trying to force myself out of this haze and start appreciating what I have once again before it’s too late. I’m hopeful things will get better once I’ve moved on from the narc. I hate that our marital connection just feels broken now and I’m going through the motions.

      3. mommypino says:


        It’s so true about how powerful that narcy pull is. And I was not looking or even thinking about an affair either but the narc was so persistent and brazen with his flirtations that it was so hard for me to not develop any feelings for him.

        My husband is an amazing guys as well and he treats me well too. But we had a few issues that didn’t get resolved and got burried inside. Trying to bring up conflicts with my husband was also my way of making him up his game. I needed to be completely happy with our marriage and my connection with him felt broken like exactly what you described. My husband had no idea that I was making him compete against the narc inside my mind. Thankfully he did the things that I told him I needed him to do and he was able to win my heart back again.

        You will eventually get out of that haze as long as you keep No Contact. And the articles here were very helpful to me in losing my appetite and attraction to the narc. Also do more intimate stuff with your husband. Little things like holding hands more often and going out to dates more often or going on a vacation together helps strengthen your bond back. Also maybe look at your old family photographs together will brong back happy memories with your husband. Hopefully some of these can help. 💕

    3. Alma Jazzmin says:

      I have got through many stages. I have been feeling better lately trying to imagine that he is happy with his new life as I try to be with mine because I loved him and I wish him well as I always did. When I focus on his bad aspects I feel hopeless and untrusting because there is no way of getting closure when you concentrate on having been betrayed as the wound will keep bleeding because of the need of getting answers about the motivations behind his actions when they were more or less provoked by his instinct. My feelings for him were pure and very profound, I didn’t failed, he did (from my perspective) but not because he is evil but because of his mental disorder that is totally out of his control. I’m glad I got the opportunity to experience the depths of my emotions, the positive and the negative ones. I scaped though so that means I was conscious of what he was and of leaving him was better/healthier for me before I left. Acceptance of the situation is the key because it is a fact that to have a healthy relationship with a narc is not possible and therefore it is better to let them go.
      I hope you feel better today! 🤗

      1. Joanne says:

        AJ, thank you so much for sharing this perspective! I really struggle with those feelings of hopelessness and lack of closure. It is very difficult at times not to focus on the betrayal, as this narc is someone I’ve known since I was a child. I keep circling back to “how could he target ME, shouldn’t I have been off limits owing to us having this childhood history together?” But your point is so valid – his motivations were provoked by instinct, and when I pull together everything I’ve learned here, this is what I can summarize:

        1. He is a MRN
        2. He targeted me based on the empathic qualities I’ve shown him over time (plus the added “benefit” of me being married thus easy prey)
        3. When he began his pursuit, he truly believed I was “the one” / he believed all the things he was telling me IN THOSE MOMENTS
        4. When I failed to provide consistent potent fuel, his attention went elsewhere/shifted to another source in his matrix
        5. When confronted on why he changed, he honestly didn’t feel that he changed OR was to blame
        6. As a MRN he fully believes he is a good person, did not do me any wrong
        7. He has a disorder that will prevent him from having a normal/healthy relationship with me and anyone else, and it is beyond his control

        It’s interesting to me that you say you’re glad to have experienced the depth of your emotions. I feel this too, in that I ask myself if I would do this all over again if I could, and the answer should be a resounding “NO,” but I go back and forth. In my case, things ended before they really began, so as hurt as I feel, I did not go through the full cycle (was shelved without devaluation, etc). He was never DIRECTLY cruel to me. He just kind of…withdrew, turned off his firehouse of affection overnight… So when I think back to those high highs, I sometimes feel like, yes, I would definitely do this all again. I’ve never felt so high before. I was lovesick – didn’t need to eat, drink, sleep. All I needed was him. The last time I saw him, I left him feeling every cell in my body buzzing for hours, and we were hardly intimate! Of course, the low was a hell unlike anything I’d experienced either. But it’s been an interesting exploration of my own psychology, emotions and life in general. Not to mention all that I’ve learned about narcissism in general. It was/is an experience like none other.

        I’m happy to hear you’re able to wish him well. Such a huge key in coming to acceptance. Just reading your comment made me feel lighter… I am going to screenshot and save it to look back on when I need a reset on my logical thinking (which is often) <3

      2. Alma Jazzmin says:

        Believe me, I know what you are talking about, Joanne because my experience was pretty much the same as yours in essence. I agree with your points but I think there is a tricky part on point 3 that keeps you deceiving yourself. Yes, he believed his feelings during the golden period were true but yet he chose you because you were already on a relationship and knew he would not need to invest on you or even need to get “serious”. It is pretty cynical and very demonstrative of his real self.
        I also relate with the way you describe your feelings during the golden period, they were surreal so unbelievable that I recall telling my self that it couldn’t be true and still I stayed.
        That you knew him from your childhood only makes more sense of why you ended having a relationship with him at the moment that suited him best. It is painful to accept, I know how horrible it is to detach oneself from that special person. Our mistake as emphatic people is to try to neglect our feelings because it’s like denying our nature. It’s definitely better to accept our love and, at the same time, the reality of needing to stay away for our own good.
        I saw his wound from the very beginning and I even told him I was going to take care of him until he felt recovered. Now I know it was a mistake but my wishes for him to feel good are still genuine.
        Give you time. I’m sure you will heal. You are wiser already 😉

        1. Joanne says:

          AJ, you are definitely right on my #3. As much as he future faked us being married someday, our kids being “best friends” and so on, he started this knowing exactly what my situation was and I can’t overlook that. And as for you telling your narc you’d take care of him — I had that same thought toward mine. Just wanting to soothe and help him and love his pain away. I never had the opportunity to actually say it to him but I would have. Mistake or not, whether they deserve it or not, I think it’s just part of our nature to need to be true to ourselves. Thank you again ❤️

      3. Alma Jazzmin says:

        “What is life? A madness.
        What is life? An illusion, a shadow, a story.
        And the greatest good is little enough; for all life is a dream, and dreams themselves are only dreams.”

        Pedro Calderón de la Barca, Life is a Dream

  25. SMH says:

    This speaks to me. I once told him in a positive way at a point where it was meant to be over (it wasn’t) that I would never be able to be with anyone else – that I would never allow another man to touch me (we did not utter the word love until the very end). At the time, I believed it. I was completely sincere. But it turned out not to be true because within months of my final escape a year after this I met someone else and I allowed him to touch me and I even fell a little bit in love with him. There is a future. Love replenishes itself.

  26. lisk says:

    “I do not think I will ever love any again, how can I after that?”

    I do think I can love again, but I will love differently. I will love someone out of want, not out of need.

  27. marinathemermaid3 says:

    Wrong wrong and wrong!!! I can’t seem to let this go! How completely wrong your perception of LOVE is! The more I learn about your kind, and that involves being one of your “victims “(although I don’t really subscribe to that viewpoint because none of us are ever truly victims in this life. That viewpoint just gives your kind seemingly more power), the more Love I have for you and the more i want to find a way to heal you. There is no draining of unconditional Love. It is unconditional. It has no need for fuel. It feeds itself. It is self perpetuating. It is the glue that binds everyone together. My ex narc didn’t like it at all when I told him what truly loving him meant. It meant that I didn’t need anything from him. That I was just happy to know he existed. There is no way anyone can drain that. The supply is limitless.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      There is no right or wrong. This is a perception which is right for us. It is not your perception so you label it as wrong, you are entitled to do so, but that does not make it wrong in itself because there is no grand arbiter that states ‘this is right’ and ‘that is wrong’.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        Maybe this should be one of the Narcissistic Truths:

        My perspective is that your perspective is wrong from our perspective.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Yes it should, thank you.

      2. marinathemermaid3 says:

        I disagree. There is a right and wrong. There is a moral code that most people live by. I’m not talking about romantic love,which I think is just an illusion, a mirroring if you will. But there is a “do unto others ” code that most decent people live by.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          No. The moral code is based on perspective. My moral code is based on my perspective and differs from yours because you have a different perspective. There is no objective test of right or wrong, only a majority view which arises from certain agreement between a majority who share a similar perspective because they have evolved in a similar way. The majority impose the moral code which a legal system is then based on. It arises from the imposition of majority intent – there is no objective standard against which the majority’s viewpoint can be measured.

          Let us say in a fictional country Fuelatania there is a law whereby anybody with green hair has to go and live on the island of Ostracise. That law arose from the relevant statute, enacted through a democratic system of voting by relevant representatives. Those representatives were elected through a democratic election process and the governing party had this policy as part of its manifesto. The majority of the country wanted this policy because they find green-haired people strange and untrustworthy (are they strange and untrustworthy – well they are to the majority who perceive them that way). Thus a moral code that green haired people are untrustworthy has arisen. The legal framework is based on this moral code and thus becomes the law and off to the island goes anybody with green hair. Nobody protests about this because they see it as an appropriate response to protect the population as a whole (who are either blue or purple haired) and the green hairers can’t protest as they are shipped off at birth and stuck on an island and disenfranchised. You would probably think such a law to be unfair, discriminatory and wrong based on your perspective but the majority of Fueltania see it as a good thing and following democracy it becomes law representing the prevailing will and the moral code.

          Thus there is no inherent good or bad thing, it is all about persepctive.

          1. SMH says:

            There are morally correct and incorrect things if we accept the proposition that society has to perpetuate itself. We don’t all live on mountain tops. If everyone kills everyone else, well there goes society. If everyone lies to everyone else all the time, well there goes social cohesion. If people do not share, many will do without and die. There are other near universal morals – incest for one is universally prohibited between parents and children and usually between siblings. There are things that one therefore rightfully expects from another individual – safety (not to be murdered) and honesty (not to be lied to). Narcs provide neither. Therefore they can be morally condemned. Yes, you are bad person, HG. It is not that your perspective is different. It is that you do not adhere to basic moral principles that allow healthy social relationships to develop. Those relationships are the building blocks of society. If everyone acted like you, the world would be a sorry place. Well, the world is a sorry place because a lot of people do act like you.

            Don’t get me wrong – I like you. But I find your loosey goosey morality problematic. Just because the majority decided democratically that condemning green haired people to an island is morally right, that doesn’t make it morally right. It is one thing to understand why people act the way they do. It is quite another thing to accept their actions. One can understand why people behave a certain way without condoning or excusing the behavior because it falls under a different moral code. I understand why honor killings happen. That doesn’t mean I think they are morally justifiable just because X society decides that they are.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Thankyou SMH I know you advance your observations having given them consideration and you don’t need to caveat your comment with regard to liking me, but I acknowledge the sentiment.

            My position is that the majority view (form a roughly shared perspective) forms the moral framework and from that follows rules, laws etc. Thus the concept of ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ is generated from this.

            You have not explained in what you have written what the basis for your moral code comes from. You state that I do not adhere to basic moral principles that allow healthy and social relationships to develop – what are those principles and how are they generated? They come from a prevailing majority view – they are not a universally accepted fact in the universe but instead they arise from the way humans have evolved and their majority view creates what is deemed as right and wrong. Your reference to me again fails to acknowledge differing perspectives. You automatically assume my behaviour is ‘bad’ and it is not ‘healthy’ – bit for who? Bad for the victim – agreed. Bad for me? No. Healthy for the victim? No. Healthy for me? Yes. Do you see – just because you do not approve because of your perspective you fall into the trap (as empaths do) of assuming your perspective is the only one which can be deemed right. No, it is right for you, but not for me – why, because my perspective is different.

            You state that incest is universally prohibited between parents and children and between siblings (I am sure WS will explain how this does not always apply in Kentucky – couldn’t resist WS!!) – yes because the evolution of humans and their perspective deemds that to be a ‘bad’ thing. You could go to another planet where incest is not outlawed because they have evolved differently and they could be amazed and stunned that on earth sexual familial relations are outlawed. In that society on another planet, their society may well function with incest being acceptable and not morally (or legally) unacceptable. Might problems arise from that – possibly, there may be certain advantages that occur in that society because of it.

            You say the world is a sorry place because of a lot of people do act like you. Again you are asserting this standpoint from your perspective. Yes it seems sorry to you because people are hurt, upset, financially ruined, manipulated and so forth. However, there are also a lot of our kind who are not in a sorry place because of being a narcisisst (I accept this does not apply to all narcisissts) but many of our kind wield power, influence, go where they wish, create and build, succeed and win in sport, drama, industry, academia, become wealthy. Do they see their world as sorry? Of course not. Why? becuase of perspective. You would say well they may be well-off, have a big house, influence politics etc but they are morally bankrupt but again that is your perspective, not ours.

            It is an interesting debate and I appreciate your constructive input.

          3. windstorm says:

            Incest is all too common here. Sort of like cock fighting – against the law but still going on out of sight. Everyone does not see it as necessarily bad.

            Reminded me of a story. Years ago a social studies teacher was having all her students research and draw out their family tree. One girl came up to me and said, “look Ms Windstorm! My family tree comes back together at the top!”
            I am not making that up. I looked and it did. 😳

          4. MB says:

            God love the teachers Windstorm!

          5. SMH says:

            Lol, Windstorm. Actually, first cousin marriage is quite common throughout the world. It is not illegal in the US, though most people would find it yucky. Did you read about that MAGA hat wearing Catholic kid confronting that native American guy? Apparently, right before that a bunch of Black Hebrew Israelites (whatever those are) were insulting the Catholic kids who are from Kentucky, calling them ‘dumb ass crackers’ and ‘incest kids.’

          6. windstorm says:

            You don’t have to tell me about how common first cousin marriage is. It’s been really common in rural counties here. Some communities nearly everyone there has the same last name.

            Yeah the thing with the Catholic kids has been in the news a lot.
            “Dumb ass crackers”! Shows how dumb he is. Crackers are from Florida or Georgia. It’s always sad to me whenever someone tries to make themselves feel better by trying to pull others down.

          7. SMH says:

            Windstorm, lol. Crackers are from Georgia or Florida.

          8. windstorm says:

            Just to be clear, that wasn’t an insult to Floridians and Georgians. They call themselves crackers. It’s a good thing.

          9. Mercy says:

            I’m enjoying this debate. I want to point out that empaths are debating moral code when next door “dirty empath infidelity” is winning the poll…I’m just gonna leave that there.

          10. HG Tudor says:


          11. SMH says:

            Not really. Infidelity is quite common everywhere. It is more a question of what is acceptable/accepted in a given society.

          12. NarcAngel says:

            Hahaha. Beautiful.

          13. SMH says:

            Mercy, I explained in my ongoing debate with HG that in fact there are not that many moral universals. What we call cheating is actually quite common throughout the world and the definition of fidelity varies. Multiple wives, French mistresses, la casa chica, all common. I wouldn’t identify fidelity in intimate relationships as a moral universal. However, I would identify honesty as one!

          14. Mercy says:

            SMH, I think that brings us back full circle to what HG says. Morals are ones prospective. Don’t get me wrong, I’m in the side of moral code. I may cheat but that doesn’t mean I think it’s morally right. To error is human. I meant what I said that I was enjoying the debate. Both made valid points and both written perfectly. I accept HGs prospective but that doesn’t mean I agree. This is one of those situations where logic cannot sway my opinion.

          15. HG Tudor says:

            Perspective, not prospective.

          16. Mercy says:

            And I was just thinking every time I see a “W” notification on my phone I feel like a Winner…Thanks HG, I wish I could blame spell check.

          17. SMH says:

            Professor Tudor, If you spend all of your time correcting spelling mistakes and the like we will never get to our lessons. But I am impressed to see that you read everything so carefully. I do not know how you do it.

          18. HG Tudor says:

            In fairness, I generally do not do so even when I see typos and wrong words used but since that appeared twice and might be misunderstood (after all many readers do not have English as a first language although often you would never know owing to the impeccable standard demonstrated). I largely refrain from such corrections because I know typos and autocorrect can occur.

          19. Mercy says:

            HG just to be clear, English is my first language. I just suck at spelling! You will be happy to know I will never spell it wrong again.

          20. SMH says:

            Mercy, Maybe it is semantics and HG’s use of the word ‘moral.’ I fully accept that there are different perspectives. i just do not believe that a perspective or a different reality is automatically right just because it exists.

          21. HG Tudor says:

            Again, there is no such thing as objectively right. it is subjective. What is right or good for me, may not be right or good for you.

          22. SMH says:

            HG, In general I would agree but again you are confusing two kinds of relativism. Moral rightness is objective. Perspectival rightness is subjective. You are describing the latter, not the former, and we do gain a lot here from your insights into the narc tribe.

            There are not many things that are objectively right, but that doesn’t mean they do not exist or are not important. One objectively right thing is honesty – that is, not deceiving someone for your own ends. You do not lie to us and that is one reason why we gain so much from your insights. What you do here is a good thing, in great part because you do not deceive or obfuscate or dissemble. But you are dishonest with Shieldmaiden. If she were one of us, your advice to her would be to GOSO, right?

            You are now in a bind because you know what you are so you do not have the excuse of a Lesser or a Mid-ranger. If you change so much that you are no longer a narc and can maintain that relationship, it would weaken your position as a spokesperson for NPD. You would no longer be a Greater. If you do not change, you are continuing to be dishonest with Shieldmaiden. You are violating a moral code as well as building a relationship based on lies. You are therefore in a hypocritical position. If I were you, I would tell her what you are and what you do. In other words, I would be honest and not keep her in the dark. Let her in and let her make her own decisions and come along for the ride if she wants to. Do you have any plans to come clean?

          23. HG Tudor says:

            No. Honesty is not linked to an objective standard either. The Mid Range narcissist believes he IS honest because of his perspective. The victim believes the narcissist is not honest because of his or her perspective. The MR narcissist does not see it as a lie owing to a differing perspective, the victim does, because of a differing perspective. It is the same as asking ‘ what is the colour red’ – to one person their red may well be another’s green and to another their version of blue – there is no way to objectively determine that because it is based on perspective caused by the interpretation of the brain.

          24. SMH says:

            Again I would argue that you are confusing two things. Just because the narc believes that he is not lying does not mean that he is not lying. Yes it is important for us to understand that the narc believes he is not lying. But he is nevertheless lying even if he believes that he isn’t.

            Just because someone sees a red wall when the wall is blue doesn’t mean that the wall is actually in reality red, even if the person sees it as red (or believes that what is objectively blue is what most of us call red). Visual perception does indeed vary (though most people would agree on the colour) but there is something called a spectrophotometer (I just looked it up!!) that does indeed objectively measure color. Colorimetry is the science of objective color measurement.

            Perception and perspective do matter of course, and they are crucial to understanding someone else’s worldview and behavior. But that does not negate the fact that some things are true and real and other things are not. Let’s take as an example witchcraft. Plenty of people in the world believe in witchcraft of one sort or another, and they act accordingly – including killing those they believe to be witches (or child snatchers or whatever). If one wants to understand why some people behave in certain ways, one might need to understand their witchcraft belief system. But that doesn’t mean witchcraft objectively exists outside of that belief system. It might, but it doesn’t necessarily follow that it does.

            If you are getting tired of this discussion, just let me know. My position will not change. I am simply trying to clarify a few issues that I think might be misleading.

          25. Renarde says:

            It isnt, is it? Bloody hell. (Still not judging!)

          26. SMH says:

            HG, I appreciate your input too. I think we disagree on where the moral framework comes from. I think it comes from the necessity of living in groups – people are fundamentally social and just about everything they do involves sociality and its maintenance – group cohesion.

            I also think you are confusing moral or ethical relativism with cultural relativism. The latter, yes, it is necessary to take a relativistic perspective to understand that people do things differently in different places for their own historical and cultural reasons. Maybe it works for them (some of them – I doubt women killed for reasons of honour acquiesce at the moment of their death) and it is important to understand why people do things the way they do, which is what you are teaching us here and which I very much appreciate. It is like reading about an exotic tribe called narcs.

            Moral relativism is a completely different animal. As I said, just because a culture engages in honour killings or banishes green haired people to an island does not make it okay. We can understand it from their perspective but we do not have to – and should not – condone it. In other words, I do believe there are a few moral absolutes. This does not keep me from understanding other people’s perspectives but in the end I do feel able to say what is right and what is wrong, universally, which is why I struggled so much about whether to tell IPPS (I can relate all of this to my own behavior as well – I don’t claim to be morally superior – only to think about these things a lot). I am not judgmental because I don’t believe in this regard that there are that many things that are universally right or wrong. Most things fall into a grey area – not good or bad. Not everything matters that much or is easily categorized. But maybe if you substitute gay people or a minority religion for your green haired people it will make more sense. Just because a majority of a society votes to banish gay people to an island, that does not make it morally acceptable.

            You’d better get your correct shoes on unless you plan to do the two left feet dance!

          27. MB says:

            SMH, that was awesome lady! 👏👏👏

          28. SMH says:

            Why thank you, MB. I do think HG is confusing two things. Yes he is teaching us a different perspective – a different belief system, a different way of doing things – and those teachings are very valuable, including for understanding our own dirty streaks. But that doesn’t make narc clulture morally acceptable.

          29. HG Tudor says:

            Not morally acceptable to you, but morally acceptable to me – again you keep thinking that there is an objective moral standard – there is not. There is only one arising from a subjective one, which is subjective to a majority and thus it prevails.

            Consider this. I am choosing something which is about what is considered good/acceptable/polite behaviour which is on the same wavelength as morals.

            If you go to watch a play at the theatre, do you talk to your friend who has joined you at your usual conversational volume or whisper or stay silent? Do you get up and down when you want to use the bathroom, buy a snack, make a call or do you remain in your seat until the intermission? Do you join in with the singing (if there is any) or remain silent? Do you call out towards the actors at any point or just watch? I should imagine you sit quietly, remain in your seat and observe. If you talked you would get shushed, if you kept getting up and down you would attract tuts and mutters, if you sang loudly you might be shushed and glared at, if you called out at the actors you would attract disdain and properly be asked to leave and even ejected. The perceived and accepted standard of behaviour at a theatre when watching a play is to sit quietly and unobtrusively and to do otherwise is seen as bad behaviour. Why? That is what the majority have deemed to be acceptable.

            Go back a hundred years or more and at a theatre you would experience the audience to talk to one another in a normal conversational manner, frequently and without whispering, the audience would move around as they pleased, they would shout out at the actors, sing heartily and they would even be sat on the same stage as the actors. Nobody complained. Why? This was the prevailing majority view and was deemed acceptable..

            Humans attended as the audience. One set of behaviours was perfectly fine but has become unacceptable – why? Not because there is any objective behaviour or moral standard to theatre attendance but because it is shaped by what is deemed as acceptable by the majority because of what they perceive as acceptable. The fluidity of that acceptability reinforces there is no objective moral or behavioural standard, it is shaped by the majority and their perception.

          30. MB says:

            You’re not supposed to sing along? Oops!

          31. SMH says:

            You can if it is Rocky Horror Picture Show!

          32. SMH says:

            HG, Again, you are confusing two things: cultural relativism (your theatre example) with moral relativism. The majority sets the standard for acceptable/appropriate and taken for granted behavior, but they do not set the standard for what is morally right or wrong because morality is based on a different set of criteria – the survival of social groups as a whole and over the long term. Survival is impossible if the majority decides that it’s okay for everyone to, say, murder each other. The Holocaust and the Rwandan genocides were not okay just because the majority decided that they were. Apartheid was not okay just because the majority said it was. Yes we want to understand why these things happen, but we do not condone them. They are objectively wrong. Again, moral absolutes are few but they do exist and they have nothing to do with how people behave in a theatre (unless they are about to assassinate Lincoln). That behavior is a cultural issue and the past is a foreign country.

          33. HG Tudor says:

            If it is based on the survival of social groups that does not work, because our form of survival (based on this differing perspective) is different to yours – we survive (we are still here) and you survive (your ‘group’ is still here) so if both sets remain, how can one form of survival be deemed morally superior to the other? That does not work,

          34. SMH says:

            I’m not trying to make a case for the moral superiority of one group or another. I am simply saying that some behaviors run counter to the survival of the human race and that is why they are universally condemned. You yourself have said that two narcs do not make a good pair. What if everyone were a narc? How would you ever procreate? How would you raise children together? You wouldn’t be able to stand each other. (Somewhat tongue in cheek but I could extend it to argue that narc behavior is actually counter-productive in a social sense.)

            But really let’s look at this a bit more because you do bring up an interesting point. We are all still here. Why are we all still here? Because we all live in societies that place checks on people’s behavior. You have said that you have killed someone but most people have no killed anyone. Maybe they would do if killing people were not universally condemned, maybe we would all have to think all the time about being pushed onto the tube tracks just because people feel that they can kill whoever they want whenever they want. Even most narcs don’t do that. Even most narcs have brakes. Why? Because society puts a lot of pressure even on narcs to behave in ways that are socially acceptable. That is why you are in treatment, after all. You are a member of society too. There is always pressure from other people – the people around you, the wider culture, to behave in ways that accord with what is deemed acceptable, as your theatre example showed very clearly. Embedded in that social pressure is the imperative to not kill (which I am using as my example). But that imperative to not take another life (there are exceptions as I have explained with my honor killings example, though that doesn’t take into account the perspectives of the victims of honor killings who probably do not want to be killed) is universal and therefore objectively wrong. There are not too many moral universals as I said at the beginning of all of this. I just think your argument that everything is subjective and nothing is right or wrong, is wrong-headed. Most things are indeed subjectively right or wrong, but not everything is.

          35. SMH says:

            HG, I just want to emphasize that what you do here is very valuable and I am not trying to destroy your arguments. I just think it is a disservice to lead people on this blog to believe that ‘nothing is right or wrong.’ There are right things and wrong things in life, but that does not detract from what you are doing here. I just wish you would shift your vocabulary a bit so as not to confuse moral behavior with cultural behavior. The two are not entirely equivalent. There is some overlap – what is considered moral in one place might not be in another, but there are also aspects of morality that are outside of any particular set of behaviors/ beliefs in any given place. We do want to understand narc codes and we do understand that the narc has a very different belief system and set of needs than the empath, but that does not make both perspectives ‘correct’ in a moral sense. It just means that they are different.

          36. HG Tudor says:

            No, you do not understand. There is a right and a wrong, but it depends