Why You Should Not Use Online Dating


Online dating and online apps are prolific, widely-used and highly profitable for those running them.

But there is a massive cost.

And you are the ones paying it.

Listen below to learn why. You can thank me later.

Listen to Why You Should Not Use Online Dating

245 thoughts on “Why You Should Not Use Online Dating

  1. Pingback: The Narcissist Torments : Emotional Torment ⋆ NarcTopia
  2. cb says:

    I conducted a little test … 🔎📚 !!!

    Tried to only like/yes on profiles with photos of relaxed looking eyes, not focused on a point on every photo, but instead a calm look, dreamy, dwelling, not superconfident, even nervous was ok as long as the gaze wasn t fixed or stiff on every pic.

    guys I deemed are probably not narcs. I also checked the bios so that they had a positive humble tone, zero negative words. No exclamation marks.

    I mistakenly also liked a guy with a bit piercing eyes, I was a bit unsure, maybe regretted a bit right after matching.

    Out of 15 matches, the Only one who sent me a message (i never message first) was that guy, the piercing intense eyes. Something on “you have hot legs and a pretty smile 😚” i ignored.

    The narc, probably.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      A useful litmus test

    2. SMH says:

      I like this, cb. I am going to dip my toe in the online dating world again even though I am at this moment listening to HG’s audio about shark infested waters. No long online conversations, all local, quick coffee, no ensnarement, no ET. Let’s see how it goes. Anyone want to help me to write my profile? How do I keep the narcs at bay?

      1. cb says:

        Wishing you a rock n roll route to the guy SMH. 🍹

        Meanwhile maybe I’ll slide to the flesh and blood world, car shows, tech lectures, beer quiz, dart contests, guitar shows, try out some places where I might have a shot a not being majority gender …

        1. SMH says:

          thx cb. I just spent weeks not being majority gender. What I got was a married guy. That’s probably what I will get online too.

  3. cb says:

    “With Tinder Plus/Premium, you can choose to only let people you’ve already clicked Like on, to see your profile”

    This feature means it is supereasy being on dating apps without the wife/hubby finding out:

    Simply check profile pictures so that the person you’re swiping yes on doesn’t seem to be aquainted to you or your spouse.

    Yep, you’re right HG. Online we’re swimming with the sharks.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Indeed, CB.

  4. existentialteabag says:

    At least you guys get the option to have some success on dating sites. As a young teabag in a world full of large, limbed men, no one would look twice at me unless I was in a mug of boiling water and milk… and even then it’s only for a fleeting thrill, nothing serious.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You need to apply logic and realise that sometimes you just will not be somebody’s cup of tea.

      1. nunya biz says:

        Good one!

      2. SMH says:


    2. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

      Existentialteabag: You just need to balance yourself out of bit. Instead of focusing on your height, I guess that is what you are complaining about, focus on what else you have to offer a woman. Some women enjoy standing out as the prize, instead of the man standing out. And then, for balance, go to some of those sites with men that teach you pick up artistry. Not to do women dirty, but to be able to learn more of the psychology of how to reach the women, that you do have the chance with. Depending on your personality, and exactly how many women do you actually need. Learn the psychological techniques on how to mesmerize the women that you you can possibly have a chance with that you are attracted to. If you like those pretty party girls, for example, do some work in the promotion world, etc. So, you can invite them to parties and clubs and openings. If you like models, do some work with photography. Legit stuff though. Even if you parlay it as a hobby. Focus on the type of woman that you want first, and then find a way to be involved in what interests that type of woman. You do not have to be right all the time, but there is the aspect of the numbers game. You can do this. Narcissists do it all they time. They believe they have to, to survive. They research and study the female targets of their choice. When the do not succeed, they rarely give up, or bemoan past failures. In fact the feel they never fail, that the woman was faulty and caused all the failures. Just try not to destroy the women, when you hit upon some successful formulas for yourself, but those PUA, Pick Up Artist, guys know a lot of psychology of woman. So if you have not done so, start there. And, be careful what you wish for. Those women can often bite. 🙂 And you may miss the old teabag days, when you did not have so many headaches from your choice of women.

  5. Getting There says:

    I recently paid for a site thinking this would be the only way to find someone and move forward. With each contact, I thought of HG and his advice and could not find myself wanting to communicate beyond just being polite and friendly, but cautious. I just deleted my account with time still on it. Now to find a way where I don’t hear HG’s voice in warning.

  6. cb says:

    One typical feature of the Don Juan/narcissist and probably money scammer, seems to be to Pretend-to-ask-the-woman-out,
    but through lack of details (venue, what day, what time),

    covertly and steadily actually make her the pursuer, so that she is the one making the suggestions and does the planning, the work. (the investment, which is fuel for him)

    Because we all know that without those three details clear, there is no possible meeting to take place.

    OR he provides every detail in his date suggestion, but with the sacrifice that it is the same day, so she needs to quickly quickly get ready if she wants to meet him. A bit of stress and suffering there. (fuel for him)

    He makes her work more and more for the dates. But with respites and reliefs.

    1. HG Tudor says:


  7. SMH says:

    HG, I meant to post my long comment above about my colleague on the Greater Narc thread. Sorry to go off topic, everyone. This isn’t someone I met online.

  8. SMH says:


    Since I am here I might as well ask this question (long back story – sorry!). I am on a work project with about 30 people from many countries. The lead is a married colleague of mine. I see him once or twice a week for mtgs, etc. There is definite chemistry but I don’t flirt with him because I don’t flirt much and anyway, he’s married (not doing that again). Yet he comes onto me – recently to the extent that he asked to meet up when we are both travelling solo next month.

    This evening everyone on the project (including many visitors from other countries) went out to dinner following a very intensive two week workshop. Lead guy sat at a separate table with a group of people who are not part of the project (I don’t know who they were) with his back to most of us. He huddled with them all night and didn’t once introduce them to the project participants, even though we have all been working very closely for two weeks. He didn’t even go around to the tables to say hello.

    There was a blonde woman (not his wife) glued to him all night. She wasn’t young or that attractive but dressed ‘sexy’ and doing the old long hair flip, dangling hand thing at the side of his chair. At one point she turned, looked me in the eye and smiled even though I was sitting at a different table and just happened to get up to go to the loo. She did not do that to anyone else. I smiled back but I also had an aha moment. She is a fuel source and he is trying to make me another fuel source. Do you think I am correct?

    I already thought he might be a narc but I think it was confirmed tonight by the other woman and by the fact that he wasn’t courteous to all of the project participants.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I would need more information to provide a definitive answer but there does appear to be some form of triangulation.

      You are already a fuel source as you are an appliance in his fuel matrix as a colleague thus a NISS.

      1. SMH says:

        Ah of course. Thank you. That make sense. I think he is trying to nudge me from NI to I. I am one of only two women of a dozen people or so at the management level (it is a very male dominated field). The other woman is not targetable because she is married, doesn’t have a dirty streak, and works at a different location.

        Not only did he suggest we meet up in a different country where we will be for unrelated reasons, he asked to meet me in a cafe for lunch a few weeks ago when we normally meet with others in his office. That is, he has now tried to get me alone twice in the past month or so. We also have to travel together over the summer.

        Anyway, I will keep an eye on things and let you know if I need help but I think I went off him anyway because I thought he was rude to the out of town visitors.

        1. Bubbles 🍾 says:

          Dear SMH,
          Don’t ya just luv it when “leads” hit on you in the work place ?
          I had this happen to me “eons” ago
          When I rejected his advances (he knew I was in a happy relationship), things went all strained ….. I obviously wounded his ego
          You’re damned if you do and your damned if you don’t
          Tell him your a lesbian
          Problem solved 🤣
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. SMH says:

            Bubbles, That is a great idea! I might very well be a late in life lesbian anyway :-). I have thought about it – lesbians really like me – but in the end I am not attracted to women, unfortunately. I think life would be easier if I were gay. xx

          2. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dear SMH,
            Thank you kindly for your reply lovely
            Just be your luck to get tangled up with a ” lesbian narc”…haha At least you can use the “I’m lesbian” as softer option for an “out” if you get backed into a corner from your married “lead” (and not bruise his delicate head as much) …OR…in conversation, reveal you’re very religious and respect the “bonds and sanctity of marriage” ….. use both ….OR … bring up a new boyfriend you’re madly in love with ….. haha
            Gotta head em off at the pass …(he sounds persistent) I just hope he doesn’t “come the heavy” or sadly, you may be looking for a new job
            Good luck precious … please keep us posted …sorry, these situations generally never end well when walking on egg shells with arse hole bosses
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          3. SMH says:

            Ha darling Bubbles, a lesbian narc. It could only happen to me!

            You are giving me lots of good ideas. Fortunately, work guy is not malignant, not my boss and cannot fire me. In fact, he needs me on the project more than I need the project (though I love the project and so wouldn’t walk away easily).

            He reminds me a lot of MRN – similar profession, similar looks, only daughters (what is it with the only daughters thing and the men who are attracted to me? This is like the fifth one in a row, though not all were narcs or married), and probably a mid-ranger too, so at least I have some idea of how to handle things, knowing what he is after (fuel). Best course of action is to ignore.


          4. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Bubbles, that strategy could backfire though. He might use it as an excuse to propose a threesome with another lady. SMH, liking women does not make things automatically easier. I like both and there are assholes -and narcs- in every gender. Right now I’m going through a work-related situation with a woman who I suspect is a narc. Fortunately, she does not affect me much, but it has been a shocking realization. A very good friend, though, has to work with her and is suffering immensely. I’m meeting with her today to talk and try to let her know what is going on, HG is gonna get some publicity…

          5. SMH says:


            I don’t think he would dare propose anything overtly. The project is very gender sensitive so there is quite a lot of awareness about harassment and the like. He would be more likely to try to seduce me but I think he just wants the fuel in the form of attention/mild flirtation so nothing will happen. I have to say, though, that this woman the other night – the one who was not his wife – was practically throwing herself at him, so he must be encouraging it. I will be watching more closely and be professional – a professional narc detector, having learned at the knee of the Master.

            I hear you about women – I was kind of being tongue in cheek. There’s a discussion on here somewhere about female bosses. I prefer male ones. I hope you can help your friend!

          6. Sweetest Perfection says:

            SMH, yes, I read that discussion but preferred to stay out because in general statements like that I see sometimes a little of internalized oppression from many women. I prefer bosses I can work with and who see the benefit of the team and encourage its members to be the best of themselves. In my case, all the bosses that did that were women. As a boss, I was loved and respected, and I know that because even now that I’m not in the leading position -I resigned to focus on a personal project- people contact me to help them figure out situations, instead of the actual boss, who is a man. It’s not a question of gender for me, but of characters and leading skills.

          7. SMH says:


            I didn’t mean to insult anyone – least of all you :). I am sure you are a great boss – I can tell just from our conversations here.

            I actually do not have a boss – it is just a generic term to me. I’ve never had one and never been one. I’ve had ‘managers’ but not anyone who had the power to fire me or I needed to answer to.

            This project requires a great deal of collaboration and aspects of it frustrate me because lead guy (who is male quite obviously!) does not communicate well or take control, and things are too decentralized as a result. I am learning what it means to properly work as a team when I have always preferred doing things myself because I am a (self)control freak like that and my work requires it. I don’t like depending on other people (that’s my avoidant side and the side that MRN turned into extreme anxiety – he found my weakness all right).

            As a manager (which I am also now too but not a boss per se), I have a very light touch but I am an excellent mentor and will go to the ends of the earth for anyone who needs me. Just yesterday my assistant suddenly needed something very important with a deadline of today. I had to do it from scratch and he had it this morning, though I didn’t get home until 9 last night. I guess that makes me a saviour contagion empath – good in an emergency!

          8. Twilight says:


            Your a contagion?

          9. SMH says:

            Hi Twilight, I don’t know as I haven’t done a consult. I was partly joking!

          10. Sweetest Perfection says:

            HG is gonna get some publicity and some kudos for just posting the info about the package to deal with a narc at work! Very ad-hoc, thanks!!

          11. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dearest SMH and Sweetest Perfection,
            Thank you lovelies for replying
            I’m so glad you can see all avenue options … it definitely helps those here who are in the same position

            Sweetest Perfection, It did not even occur to me “a threesome” card trick could be played ….. boy, you certainly need to be one step ahead of these manipulators
            Best wishes to you and your friend at work, it’s so traumatising (I’ve been bullied) ….just aweful

            SMH, thank goodness you’re safe and your “lead” cannot fire you …. others may not be so fortunate
            Hahahahaha … a mid ranger, he’ll go off and ” sulk” when you give him the cold shoulder

            Light bulb suggestion … just in case …..
            you are on medication (Shingles is going around at the moment and it’s contagious) or …..you have an STD (that would shut him up for sure)
            We lovelies can have “aces up our sleeves” as well
            Hugs to you both … good luck
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          12. SMH says:

            Ha Bubbles,

            Shingles would work. No talk of STDs because no talk of my private life, however fucked up.

            It suddenly occurred to me that the woman who was hanging all over him was a former girlfriend. That is why he felt it was safe to be out in public with her (his wife would know who she was) and a million of his coworkers and that is why she acted the way she did. She didn’t strike me as someone in our profession, which is why I noticed her. She was out of place and that would also explain why he did not introduce her to anyone.

            You are right that I would not want to have a mid-ranger with any control over me in any capacity. Been there, done that!

            Thank you for making me laugh, Bubbles! xx

          13. nunya biz says:

            SP I have seen some great, skilled female bosses. Thank you for the point.

          14. Sweetest Perfection says:

            You’re welcome, nunya biz.

          15. SMH says:

            Sorry again, SP. I feel awful now – shame on me.

          16. Sweetest Perfection says:

            SMH, you don’t need to feel bad or apologize, I didn’t feel insulted at all. I just wanted to pinpoint that sometimes we women need to stop diminishing our capabilities to succeed and be efficient because we don’t need to do that to ourselves, the patriarchy has already been doing that for the whole of history. I will never assign gender stereotypes because I basically don’t believe in such a thing. Now, a different statement would have been that from your experience, so far, you happened to work better with bosses that were males, which of course could perfectly be true in your case and that’s all. I’m not offended at all, and I love chatting and exchanging ideas with you, SMH ❤️

          17. SMH says:

            You’re absolutely right, SP, in both senses. That this has been my experience and is also what I should have said.

            But I also think that we cannot deny that there are learned behaviors around gender. While there are lots of upsides to female sociality, there are downsides too – gossip, backstabbing, triangulation with other female co-workers (having favourites and the like), the tendency to take on too much and then complain about it, etc., the expectation that other women will behave similarly and when they do not, exiling them. Some men do these things too but in my experience, it is more common in women.

            Anyway, if I ever have a boss, I hope it is you! 🙂

          18. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Thank you, SMH. If you worked with me, I would definitely never ask you to use Excel. Gaaad, how I hate that sucker!

          19. SMH says:

            SP, if you did, I would lob it right back and say either I stay or Excel stays. Can’t have both of us! Hmmm I think I’ll refer to MRN as Excel now.

          20. Lou says:

            Can I have his phone number please? I suddenly find your MRN very attractive.

          21. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Lou, hahaha! How can you like Excel!? It hurts my eyes and messes up with my brain! SMH, that is a fantastic name, I say you keep it when referring to him.

          22. Lou says:

            SP, I work a lot with Excel and I don’t know what my life would be without it. I think it is a great software. I like numbers. I understand those who don’t though.

          23. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Lou, what I find annoying about it is not the numbers but the fact that, if you have to enter many rows of data separated into different categories explained in headlines, once you start scrolling down to keep on entering more data, the headlines disappear and you just see lines. That’s why I said it messes up with my eyes and brain. I have entered the wrong info into the wrong row many a time. Excel is not very good for long lists unless you print it out, have access to the global vision of the spreadsheet, and enter the numbers manually, which is so 1999, quoting Prince…😛

          24. Lou says:

            SP, you can freeze the headline cells so that you they don’t disappear when you scroll down your long lists.
            Sorry HG, I know this is off topic.

          25. HG Tudor says:

            No problem, it is important to excel at Excel.

          26. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Lol. Fortunately for me, it’s not in my field.

          27. Lou says:

            I agree with your Words and Outlook.
            You’ve made a Powerpoint, HG.

          28. HG Tudor says:

            Very good!

          29. SMH says:

            HG is the whole package – 365! 24/7 (see, I am good with numbers too)

          30. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Lou, I decided to treat Excel the same way I did the narc and went NC a while ago 🤣

          31. Lou says:

            Excel is hoovering you then, and I am its Loutenant.

          32. Sweetest Perfection says:

            That’s hilarious, Lou! You’re Excel’s flying monkey.

          33. SMH says:

            That’s the spirit, SP!

          34. Sweetest Perfection says:

            SMH, in the same spirit: if you’re not gonna make my life better, why should I keep your drama? Bye bye, Excel, err I mean, narc!

          35. SMH says:

            Excelactly, SP

          36. SMH says:

            Not off topic at all. Excel, freezing, losing track, disappearing, wrong information. Totally on point!

          37. SMH says:

            Lou, Next time I have to “fill in” an “Excel” spread—-sheet, I will turn to you for help. Promise. 🙂

            I’m going to crack up now everytime I see an Excel spreadsheet at work.

          38. Lou says:

            Actually, I thought of you and your Excel this morning when Iopened the first spreadsheet.

          39. SMH says:

            Hahaha Lou. Luckily, I did not see any “Excels” today. I only had to deal with Outlook. Grrr. They just “upgraded” our email and I had IT change mine back to the old one. Forget the spreadhseets. I can’t even handle the fancy email.

          40. Lou says:

            Ha ha SMH. Oftentimes, I don’t like upgrades either and adjust to them reluctantly.

          41. SMH says:

            I have started using it, SP. I also like Sarah Jane’s “Chewy.” But MRN is definitely more of an Excel than a Chewy (though he liked to have certain parts chewed).

          42. SMH says:

            lol Lou. If I had it, I would gladly give it to you.

          43. Lou says:

            Lol SMH. Thanks, but I don’t want your Excel’s phone number. He can go narc himself.
            And I am actually taken.

          44. SMH says:

            He can go narc himself is right! That’s what I told him!

          45. Lou says:

            Excel-lent. He can go narc himself sky high. Lol.

          46. SMH says:

            Lou, haha. The best name. A few variations popped into my head in response to Kate this morning. Ex-cel (like incel). Ex-hell. It’s perfect.

          47. Lou says:

            Lol. They are very good, SMH.

          48. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I just decided that, for similar reasons to your naming your narc Excel, I’m going to call mine Word Press from now on.

          49. SMH says:

            SP, ROFL. Works especially well for a cerebral. Bench Press for a somatic.💪

  9. ava101 says:

    Met the ex-narc in a group setting, people present who’d known him for years. Met the current ex lovers one also in real life in a group, the other through an online dating website / chatting, yes. Outcome: _exactly_ the same. Always only saw the side of him (mask, persona), he wanted me to see. In which environment would you ever get a better idea of a narc?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It is not the environment which is the key – it is the behaviours which manifest in all manner of different environments.

  10. Susurrito says:

    Please, H.G., I don’t know English and I can read your blog by automatic translation but I lose the videos … Please, could you also post the text of the videos for non-English speakers, like me?

    Your information has been my salvation, thank you from my heart.

  11. NarcAngel says:

    When I asked my sister why she was looking for a partner online she said thats how it’s done now. I said I realize that but it doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to do. She said you met yours in a bar, what’s the difference? You didn’t know him. I told her first of all I wasn’t looking, and that when you are in someone’s presence that you can at least observe how they interact with people and watch their expressions when speaking to others for any inconsistencies. That you will meet other people who will have interacted with them and have an opinion about them (and better tell what they think by their expressions when speaking about them). Also where they work, people who know their family, etc. That it wasn’t foolproof but was better to gauge in person than trying to determine what a person is like by reading words on a screen. She scoffed and said well I don’t go to bars, how would I meet someone then? I answered by going about your life? Through your work and interests? Maybe join some things? Through friends? I told her that the very fact that shes looking online tells the other person that you are not out in the world, lonely, and looking. That it makes you a target for those looking to take advantage. She scoffed and said I was old fashioned and that’s how it’s done now. I told her that her bar was too low because she was using her father as the bar, and that anyone next to him would seem better/acceptable. That she should aim higher than that to be happy. She was angry and lashed out that was not the case and that I was questioning her judgement. I told her I was questioning her history.

    Yeah. Stupid old fashioned me. I should have noted all of the online success around me. I’d say who is laughing now except that I’m not laughing. I’m starting to feel the futility of trying to effect prevention. It seems people only want to be comforted once disaster strikes, but not examine the things that onlookers see about their behaviour that might be heading them to disaster. That is viewed as criticism and apparently they would rather have that come from their lover. That people should just quietly watch the horror unfold, put their feelings aside, and then offer kind words and a hot beverage when it all falls to shit so that the victim can feel better and then fall into another trap. And people sometimes wonder why others are not receptive or understanding? Who is it that’s selfish again?

    1. jenna says:

      Hi NA,

      I find it very sweet of you to try to protect your siblings. I am wondering did step narc treat you any differently than his biological kids or did he unleash his tricks equally on all of you? I especially remember the incident where he told you all to give him your favorite toy so he could destroy it and if you tried to trick him by giving a different toy, he would already know and then he would destroy them all? Forgive me because I do not recall the story fully. Did your sister experienc similar horrendous behavior from him?

      1. NarcAngel says:

        Hi Jenna
        2 of us were his biological and 2 not. We all experienced abuse (as well as my mother of course) but my brother who was not his biological I view as suffering the worst of his evil (mentally and physically) and the one I felt most needing of protection. He would at least find good things to say about his biological 2 at times and always tied to how he was responsible. Always referring to how they got their looks or athletic achievement from him for example. He would also refer to them as ‘his’.

        1. jenna says:

          Hi NA,

          Thanks for your reply. I feel for all of you. I especially feel sad that your brother had to endure physical abuse along with mental. What a monster stepnarc was. I am glad he can no longer hurt any of you.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            Thank you. I am happy as well that you are no longer being manipulated by your ex. Things do get better don’t they?

          2. Jenna says:


            Thank you! Things get better for sure, and for me, even better than pre-narc days!! Keep at nc everyone! It gets easier!

    2. K says:

      Your sister’s response is interesting. She is quite defensive.

      “She said you met yours in a bar, what’s the difference?”
      This looks like deflection, she’s turned the tables and has you explaining your behaviour.

      “She scoffed and said well I don’t go to bars, how would I meet someone then?”
      More deflection and a pity play. She is the victim and you need to offer the solutions to fix her problem.

      “She scoffed and said I was old fashioned and that’s how it’s done now.”
      I see contempt in this statement.

      “She was angry and lashed out that was not the case and that I was questioning her judgement.”
      She took umbrage at your questioning, perhaps it was an affront to her notion of superiority.

      She seems very narc-ish. It seems as if people like to create their own drama(s) and then expect others to rush in and provide succor.

      A woman met a man in my town on Tinder and he invited her over to his place for dinner. Turns out he served her human remains. The police are keeping it on the down low (to flush him out, I think) because he faked his email, name and used a stolen credit card to rent an AirBNB and then promptly disappeared.

      I am old fashioned like you. To hell with online dating.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        I had my sister as a standard empath but started to see Co-d elements some time ago (before her Mid Mr Meh came along). I think that might account for some of her behaviour. I’m paying attention but not playing to their shenanigans.

        1. K says:

          Standard empath with Co-d traits makes complete sense. It was interesting to see how she used narc shenanigans in that interaction. It makes you think: Who the fuck is the narc now?! WTF.

          And I didn’t realize that “healthy” individuals can project, too. Human behaviour is fascinating.

        2. Twilight says:

          Narc Angel

          Are you familiar with peptides?

          This is a chemical release that is actually responsible for different emotions we feel. As children as we learn “different” emotions our bodies associated specific peptides with an emotion. Just like a drug addict becomes addicted to their drug of choice and needs larger doses to feel the feel good sensation, so does our body become addicted to specific peptides.

          Empathetic/empathic ……emotion is the master logic is the servant

          Narcissist……logic is the master emotion is the servant.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            Peptides was my favourite flavour of Chiclets! Or maybe it was Pepsin……

            Kidding. Either way – there’s no balance and it’s fucked up.

          2. K says:

            I was reading a little bit about string theory, black holes and entropy (disorder/chaos).

            Black holes (voids) hide (mask) information and in ordinary physics entropy is a measure of missing information, therefore, it makes sense to attribute entropy (disorder) to a black hole (the void).

            The polar opposite of entropy is balance.

            Think: Black Hole: The Narcissistic Hoover

            The narcissist has no balance, nor the empath, so we attract each other to find the balance.

            That is why logic is so important to the empath, it keeps her/him balanced and safe.

          3. Twilight says:

            Narc Angel

            I am dying over here!!!!!

            Thanks I needed that after the day I had yesterday.

          4. K says:

            That makes complete sense, thank you Twilight, I found that very helpful.

          5. FYC says:

            Twilight & K, I really enjoyed your peptide and entropy comments. Very interesting. Thank you.

          6. K says:

            Thank you FYC!
            The comments here make you think and help with perspective.

          7. FYC says:

            Hello K, So true, in more ways than one! Thanks again.

          8. Renarde says:


            I kind of see where you are heading with your entropy argument and indeed you are correct that entropy is a measure of disorder in a given ‘closed’ system.

            However, black holes are not ‘information voids’. Far from it. They actually contain lots of information.

            One of the problems which Cosmologists have issues with are – How did the Universe begin? And of course, how will it end?

            The ending is now pretty much understood. The Universe will end in ‘Heat Death’. That is, all the energy that was present at the Big Bang MUST be present at the end. To this end, the universe is essentially attempting to become homogeneous – to smooth out all the energy in the system itself. Presently, the system is ‘lumpy’ – if you google CMBR there is a great map of the known universe showing where these lumpy bits are. It is a measure of the temperature of the Universe itself. Understanding in great detail what the temperature of the universe is and what the density actually is – again ‘lumpiness’ – reveals which model, open, closed or rebound will occur.

            This is an area which Hawking became extensively involved in. He reasoned that for complete order, black holes must evaporate otherwise there is still information locked within and thus how can that be? He postulated a way this could happen – Hawking radiation. But yes; BH’s are rammed full of information.

            Personally, I have never liked string theory. I think that General Relativity is the closest we have and that isn’t fully understood. As in, it’s incomplete.

            My lecturer on my MSc Astrophysics breezed merrily over Dark Energy and Dark Matter. Their thinking is that a more complete understanding of GR will lead to the removal of the DM/DE models.

            The Universe is ‘open’. Heat death will occur when T and p are in full equilibrium (Google the Friedman equations). Then there will be NO entropy, S in the system itself so then S becomes a measure not or disorder but of order.

            Physicists say S tends to 1 and chemists say S tends to zero (I think that’s the right way round without googling it). Either way, we are right and the chemists (naturally) are wrong. I can forgive them that; it’s the fucking biologists I can’t stand.


            Twilight – that IS interesting on peptides though. Very intriguing.

          9. K says:

            You nailed it! And I am not a fan of String Theory either. The universe is expanding (think of a water drop landing on a table top and spreading apart) to disperse energy as efficiently as it can until it reaches equilibrium/balance ending in heat death.

            Blackholes are full of information that cannot be directly observed but only inferred by how it interacts with the visible light around it. I am still learning about Hawking’s blackhole theory and I am a fan of Neil deGrasse Tyson.

          10. Renarde says:


            The narcissist has no balance, nor the empath, so we attract each other to find the balance.

            Now – I STRONGLY agree with this statement. I think this is what makes the N-E bond so utterly compelling.

            Which is why what HG is attempting with SM is utterly fascinating. If we are agreed that the N-E bond must (or almost always) end badly with the de-valument of the E, then Wow! What could be possible for the Ns that are self-aware?

            I had a very intresting conversation recently where I argued that now that we have long since mapped the human genome, what if that particular gene which is the ‘seed’ that HG writes about could be removed, completely? End NPD totally.

            Ahh my friend says, but what would the greater implications for society be without Ns – no great writing, inventions, leadership etc? I had to agree – I think if we could remove that ‘seed gene’ we might de-evolve society itself.

          11. K says:

            Exactly, what would be the implications for society without narcs? I have thought of that and still continue to ponder that conundrum.

    3. Bubbles 🍾 says:

      Dear NarcAngel,
      Mr Bubbles n I are going thru similar, as we speak, watching our dear friend being manipulated by his narc brother’s lieutenants, over “hearsay” about his brother (our friend knows his brothers a narc)
      We have just “had words” over it and now everything is very tense
      It seems prevention definitely doesn’t work
      We are sitting on the sidelines watching it all about to explode
      Why is it that narcs win over us …..with their lies, bad behaviour and smearing compared to good kind honest people who are always there and have your back ?
      Our friend’s brother has treated Mr Bubbles and myself appallingly…. yet … here we are again, being disregarded in favour of the bully brother
      Then our friend will expect us to be there when it all turns sour again
      I truly sympathise NarcAngel, I know exactly how you are feeling right know ….. helpless, frustrated, hurt and I’m somewhat angry as well
      Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      1. NarcAngel says:

        Sorry to hear that you are dealing with that also. Boggles the mind that people can be too sensitive/defensive to listen to an opinion that although may not be welcome, may be constructive and have some validity, (and from those who wish them no harm), but gobble up without hesitation the pretty and ego feeding lies of those who have yet to prove themselves. Whatever. I will be deaf to the inevitable calls of CLEAN UP ON AISLE THREE! I will simply point them to the mop.

        1. Bubbles 🍾 says:

          Dearest NarcAngel,
          Thank you for your reply lovely
          You are sooooo right
          Sounds like your sister may need a bigger mop
          I might suggest our friend go out and buy himself a fan 🤣
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

    4. Mercy says:

      NA, I know it seems like she views your opinions as criticism but that may not be the case. I think she’s hanging onto hope and she wants you to tell her that she should. She wants your approval. Just like you can’t tell a narcissist to stop abusing, you can’t tell an empath to stop hoping when they are thinking with their emotions. Don’t take it personal. Maybe with your guidance, this will be the experience that finally makes her aware and causes her to start thinking logically.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        Hi Mercy
        I should clarify that the discussion with my sister was in the past when she was looking for partners online and there was more than one that ended badly. She is now ensnared by a Mid Victim (met online). Living with him and engaged to be married next year (I’m glad for the long engagement). We’ll see what happens in the mean time, but even if she does start to see, I predict she will steam ahead. She’ll show us attitude.

        1. Mercy says:

          NA, haha a sister of yours having attitude? No way 😃. Online dating is full of predators. During my entanglement with BS I set the rule that if he wasn’t going to claim me as GF then I was allowed to date, thus my online dating experience. I went on several dates but none made it to a second date. I did meet one guy that I now call a friend. He was the only one with good intentions but we didn’t click as a couple. He said it best when he said the group of people online are all just fucking each other.

          The women are just as bad as the men. After becoming aware of BS and all of his women, I witnessed the process from his side. Some women were very aggressive. Less than a days conversation and they would meet, hook up then disappear. I understand a woman has sexual needs too but doesn’t there have to be some kind of attraction, even if it is just a hook up. How can you be attracted to someone you’ve never met and barely talked to.

          In my opinion online dating is a bunch of people with low self esteem looking for a quick pick-me-up. The problem is there are some that are not playing this game that get caught up and become victims of predators like your sister.

          1. K says:

            Some of those women may be narcissists and the somatics are very promiscuous. Online dating is rife with Narcissists looking for fuel.

            Sex = fuel.

          2. Mercy says:

            K, I agree that some of them are narcissist too. The amount women that put it out there just blows my mind though. Sex has been used by women to reel men in for ages but this goes beyond that. I can’t imagine all are narcissist. I really do think that low self esteem, no respect for themselves and setting the bar low is the root of it in some cases. That’s why so many are sitting targets for the narcissist.

          3. nunya biz says:

            I don’t think a desire for “casual” sex is always indicative of narcissism or of low self-esteem.

            Not meaning to disagree with your opinions at all, only to add another one, just with the intention of female sexual freedom of choice in light of history, etc… and some people do deliberately pursue purely recreational sex. Also many people have varying circumstances or perspectives that might not fall within others’ context of predictable and socially normative behavior. For example there are women on here who maintain sexually based relationships with men who are not treating them exceptionally well (I have) and I can see why they are doing it. Another woman might consider that doing that without the rest of the relationship or continuing it is preferable and be conscious about that.

            I certainly think it CAN indicate low self esteem or narcissism, so I don’t mean to negate what anyone is saying and it’s a valid point, imo.

          4. Mercy says:

            Nunya Biz, Im sorry I am just seeing your comment. I appreciate you bringing this up because that is where my confusion is and maybe you can help me understand. I get the meaning of female sexual freedom and I support it. I’ve always had the understanding the sex for a woman is more emotional. Not just emotions shared between couples but emotions in general. I understand a woman out with the girls, meeting a guy, hitting it off then going home together. It’s is her decision and as long as she’s not hurting anyone she should be able to feel the enjoyment of a man she’s attracted to. I understand FWB. My perfect man would be someone I can share some experiences with, enjoy sex and convo with but does not live with me, does not share my finances, does not expect dinner made every night. I want freedom with benefits. 

            What I don’t understand, and I want to, is women that meet a man on dating sites and share nude pics within the first 5 min of convo. A married woman that will meet an unattractive man at a park and give him oral sex. A female bartender that will go out to the back shed with a customer and have sex with him while his wife is in the bar with her friends. Then this man shares her info with his friend and she hooks up with the friend the next night. These are real examples and I cant help but wonder if the women’s sexual freedom envelope is being pushed a little bit here, or if this is becoming morally acceptable. 

            Are these examples of recreational sex?

          5. SMH says:

            I also want freedom with benefits, Mercy. You described it perfectly. I want mutual affection/respect, my independence and my separate finances. I am very monogamous and loyal but I don’t want to live with anyone or ever be married again.

            I am not one for recreational or casual sex at all so I do not understand women like the ones you describe. I don’t do sex for sex’s sake. I don’t even get horny unless there is someone to get horny about (no abstract horniness here!!).

          6. nunya biz says:

            Oh, that’s a great explanation of your questions and opinion, Mercy. That’s what I was wondering, the specifics of your pondering.

            I think sometimes women “try” things not understanding the pitfalls, so I’d say some are women experimenting and deciding what they like or are looking for something. Some are people trying to get sexual needs fulfilled without complications. Some are narcissists.
            Like a woman who would seduce a married man in front of the spouse, I’ve seen that where a woman is clearly flirting with bad intent with my husband at a party (being intentionally deceptive in front of me) or I’ve seen it with another couple. I identify those women as predatory narcissists. I would see that differently from a woman who is legitimately attracted and not attempting to be predatory and deceptive.
            I am not attracted to married men. I have recently become inadvertently attracted to a married man (it is very unusual for me), but I would never pursue something like that and would avoid it. Someone would have to make real room for a relationship with me. BUT I feel I have life experience to support that expectation.

            I have developed a strong opinion about what I like and don’t like in a man and it doesn’t always require what people would see as a “deep” emotional connection, but an emotional connection is required. I guess I see it as about a woman making a real choice, whatever that turns into, rather than being a slave to something else? Like for example what if someone decides to engage in group sex. I would see a difference between someone being very discerning about the circumstance and someone seeking fuel or being predatory or opportunistic? I just also feel certain that there can be a healthy, fun and scintillating orgy. But regardless I see all sexual acts as expressions of love and self in some way and that is why I think it’s important to be wary of narcissists and follow the advice about online dating. Motives are an issue. Emotional care, respect, collaboration. I guess I think it’s complicated.
            I also know there are things I just can’t resist realistically.

            Umm…for myself….
            I think I feel the same as you on an ideal type of relationship. I have had other types besides because my ideal isn’t there, but what I want is a comfortable, loving relationship that isn’t controlling like you say. Perhaps grows into something more intense and meaningful over time and a very strong bond develops. I had something somewhat like that, but I think it would more fall into some of what HG describes in his Dirty Empath article about being IPSS and I couldn’t continue, though he returns periodically and starts all over with the seduction. It is difficult because he is attractive and intelligent and logically it should work. My emotions say that if someone is “managing” a relationship with me then I cannot give my love, I really think they are getting way too good of a deal there.

          7. nunya biz says:

            I guess Mercy, I think it is an interesting question and I’ve thought about it a lot, and everyone seems to have a different opinion. I’ve noticed a lot of double standards in my life. And some are perpetrated by me.

            One thing I noticed is that narcissistic women having sex bothers me sometimes. Not always, but it seems self-centered of me that I should see an empath as a better choice. But if I’m honest I do. And I also see other empathetic women as a better choice, so it’s not just about me, it’s about what I relate to and see as important.
            Simultaneously I often see emphatic women having sex with a narcissistic man is relate-able. And I wondered why that is? I think it has to do with some subconscious responses to gender roles. I’m not sure.

            I also think that my opinion about differentiating things you are mentioning comes back to intent and choice. But I would allow a huge curve for learning in people who are not judgmental about sex morally. Also my opinion toward the sexuality of narcissistic men is changing. BUT I have seen on occasion very high level somatic traits and forget it. Some people just ooze hot.

          8. Mercy says:

            Nunya Biz, you make good points. Trying, experimenting, learning, those things I can understand. I think you said it best “real choice”. Are women making the decisions without influence and guilt?

            As far as our ideal type of relationship, I think that makes us a perfect target for a narcissist. When I look back in my previous relationship, I know this was the case. I liked the convenience of having the companionship along with being able to keep my Independence. Turns out my Independence was shelved fuel and the companionship was manipulation and lies. You say a relationship like that logically should work and I agree but not with a narcissist.

            I’ve never been judgmental about these things. My ex narc would often smear women and ask my opinion on what I thought if their sexuality. I would tell him what he wanted to hear but in the end my answers became my own. It doesn’t affect me so I don’t care. I don’t go around asking women their sexual history so I can decide if I want to be their friend.

            In the end my curiosity isnt about judgement, its more about trying to understand how online dating became online shopping for a narcissist. A few clicks of the keyboard and they can have fuel in their shopping basket.

          9. SMH says:

            Mercy, I never said this to MRN but I often thought that he did not LIKE women. That is, that he didn’t appreciate women at all. I tend to like men who like women or who are like women – emo and artsy/creative types. MRN was not that at all. Totally alien creature to me but I think that’s what fascinated me. I was also alien to him and so ditto the weird fascination. We both kept trying to fit the other into the boxes we were familiar with. I cannot blame him for everything. Square pegs and round holes the both of us.

          10. Mercy says:

            SMH, I use to tell BS that I wish he didn’t hate women. It’s not that they don’t like women, it’s that they only like the fuel that’s provided.

          11. SMH says:

            Mercy, Yeah I think in that case it’s that they don’t “see” anyone as a person so they don’t appreciate women because they don’t appreciate anyone, right? It’s as HG says – sex is just a very potent fuel source so maybe we feel it more than the narc’s NI sources.

          12. nunya biz says:

            Mercy, very well said.

            I think that the problem comes back to narcissism (again). It does make me upset, to be honest, how online dating has evolved to support narcissism. I was thinking about how women acting in ways that are of disservice to themselves, or might be seen as low self-esteem, are sometimes unaware of boundaries or of issues or most importantly unaware of narcissists possibly due to being raised (or not raised) by one and not being aware of what being targeted means and the learning curve on what is sexually appropriate and good for oneself can be wide depending on upbringing. I’ve thought about this before with the esteem question and how it works in the narcissistic relationship. I think sometimes the entire problem can be traced back to a simple logic failure (or many if a bad childhood). And once that logic is sorted out the esteem issue is easier to address, thus sometimes making not really an esteem issue at all. The problem is the narcissist.

            If sex is to be looked at as degrading or a transaction, then it is. If sex is to be looked at as generous, respectful and joyful, then it is. And I’m not talking about role-play.

            And what really sucks about that the most is that my sex drive, my love, my sexual freedom and CHOICE is beautiful and a gift. To the narcissist it is not seen for what it is. That is a real fucking shame. And I’ve seen the difference, I know what is possible, narcissists are the ruiners of love.

            Which is how I feel about what you said
            “You say a relationship like that logically should work and I agree but not with a narcissist.”
            It is the narcissist that makes it a problem and I WHOLLY agree that it makes us the perfect target for a narcissist. The IRONY that the things that are most reasonable and wonderful and generous about me are sometimes the things that make it harder.

            SMH, I just wanted to mention…recreational sex can still involve a person to get horny about, otherwise it’s masturbation. I wouldn’t call the two things mutually exclusive. I completely understand your preferences though.

            I think education about narcissism should inform freedom of choice, it’s just disappointing, but this article is accurate. As far as judgment, Mercy, I don’t either I am very not judgmental, BUT as HG says *excessive* promiscuity is a red flag for narcissism. I think all red flags are relevant as a part of the whole picture. I’d notice as part of a whole picture but only for self-protection reasons, not judgment reasons at all because I do not care one bit, not even a little, and narc traits don’t always = narc (I have several).

          13. SMH says:

            Nunya Biz,

            Yes, I get that. I am just unable to do it, though I did sleep with MRN only having met him once (very unlike me). I didn’t even sleep with a guy I was involved with all last fall!!

            With MRN it was because I told him this very warped story about a dead cat and he laughed. Most people would have been appalled. I wish I had been more careful but it felt very natural, like I knew him (that mirroring thing) and anyway, he’s a narc so it didn’t make any difference in the long run.

            All I want is to have fun in a committed relationship with someone I like. Wahhh. It is the narcissist that makes that sort of thing a problem.

          14. nunya biz says:

            SMH, it is the narcissist that makes it a problem.
            And as far as the dead cat thing, I’ve had people I’ve mentioned a death to respond inappropriately as well, that bothers me a lot. Sometimes I think empathy had gone out the window. I agree, the mirroring thing makes things feel natural.

            Also I become less able to enjoy sexual relationships anyway, which I’ve said on here before, the understanding of motivations and the lack of ability to love bothers me deeply. Regardless of depth of relationship and commitment I really can’t untangle sex and feelings from each other and I’ve come to terms with that. It is always an emotional experience for me.

          15. SMH says:

            Nunya Biz,

            I can’t untangle sex from emotions either and have also accepted that. I don’t want to untangle those two things.

            I thought the dead cat story was funny too. I just didn’t think a normal person would laugh so it was sort of a test. When he laughed, I fell for him because I am warped like that too. He also said at that point that the safest bet for letting a flat was a woman over 50 with cats (the implication being that the cats were substitutes for men, she wouldn’t have a social life so no parties, no damage etc). That was a red flag too but it was pretty funny, accurate and I just checked it and put it away. The next red flag came that same meeting when he referred to one of his kids as ‘nothing special.’ That one bothered me – I didn’t laugh. All the red flags began to add up and that was only the second time we saw each other. I did escape soon after for the first out of five or six times, but not for another few weeks yet.

            I agree with your point to Mercy about men competing with each other online. I think a lot of toxicity is about men competing with each other and women competing with each other. We are the hardest on our own kind.

          16. nunya biz says:

            And also, Mercy, regarding online dating and fuel in your shopping basket I think things are compounded by the fact that there are groups of men who tell other men that they are not worthwhile or successful unless they can attract and bed large numbers of women, which requires a dampening of empathy and emotional exploration in itself. It’s ALWAYS been the case that men get back pats for sex while women do not, but it seems that in conjunction with online dating being so ubiquitous that it’s gets over the top and bordering men being abusive toward other men.

          17. nunya biz says:

            Ugh, ew SMH, I don’t mind a morbid sense of humor at all, I can be weird, but yeah it’s that third one that bothers me about the kid. Wow. I am utterly incapable of feeling that way.

            I have dated several men who don’t “like” women as you say. I’m sure they don’t think that’s the case, but they don’t know what that feels like to us, I can see it, so strange to excuse that. But eh, I’ve seen men who are more feminine and not sexist be N, though avoiding ones who are misogynist (even subconsciously) should be a no-brainer for me. I think it’s that “alien” thing you say, like I get fascinated with their weirdness sometimes.

            I have a weird aversion to female-female competition. I avoid it like the plague, which I think is why I automatically avoid female somatics (they seem more directly competitive). Even subtle hints of it drive me crazy and I’ve known that for a very very long time and always wondered why (now I know I s’pose). I don’t like most competition though since it seems to me it’s always mostly based on false constructs so I feel frustrated about it. I enjoy seeing sports competitions, etc… though (with good sportsmanship).

          18. Mercy says:

            Nunya Biz & SMH, I keep thinking about what HG said in “narcissism and it’s creation”. 1 in 6 people are narcissist. As if are dating options aren’t bad enough. Ugh!!

          19. SMH says:

            lol Mercy. Narcs can be fun! Just don’t sleep with them!

          20. SMH says:

            Nunya Biz,

            I am very competitive in some ways but I do not compete with other women for a man’s attention.

            MRN suddenly sprung IPPS and another fuel source on me after I had been away for five months (he kept me e-tethered the whole time). I jokingly said ‘which one should I worry about?’ and he said ‘which one are you worried about?’ I said neither – I don’t compete with other women. He then asked me what I meant! I was so stunned that he didn’t understand.

            I bowed out, wished him well, and he directly hoovered me three weeks later. I bowed out again but two months later, we were back in the FR (for a week, then I escaped again but three weeks later we resumed the FR ).

            I never wanted to be IPPS in part because I don’t compete with other women and obviously IPPS had priority (the other fuel source disappeared), so I was pretty non-competitive even with IPPS.

            The hating or not appreciating or not being able to have fun with women – doesn’t have to be a narc, though I think Vaknin says all male narcs are misogynists. Would you agree with that, HG?

          21. nunya biz says:

            Mercy, plus they’re the best ones at faking stuff.

          22. nunya biz says:

            SMH, that’s how I feel. If someone sets up such a competition then I’m out. Actually, often at the first display of blatant selfishness or narcissism I can be out anyway.
            The healthy narcissism form of competition is good, like aiming to win a contest or gain promotion or something. I tend not to do that much, I’m more usually one to aim to do the best job possible at what I’m doing without direct objective.
            But you know what? Lol, I just now remembered while typing this that I won TWO creative contests in grade school and for BOTH of them, years apart, my father told me that someone who was judging the contest must have liked me and sort of dismissed what I did. That’s odd because I remember him being complimentary a lot about my abilities at other times.
            Ugh…tangent, but that was an interesting puzzle piece.
            Now I’m irritated.

            But anyway, yeah, women competing for a man drives me a little crazy. As far as relationships go I think love should be the focus and it should be obvious who someone loves, protects, feels connected to, supports, independently of other people- so the entire concept of romantic competition doesn’t make sense to me. If I like someone, I like them how I like them completely independently of other people. Of course my entire household was always set up like some kind of who fucks over who system apparently. Sheesh.

          23. nunya biz says:

            And by the way, SMH, I think I have real resistance to IPPS position because of my tendency to match up with N’s and because I have a real view of how that can turn out AND because I have resistance to female-female jockeying for position (I won’t), so it’s a built in safety in triangulating situation that I won’t go there pretty much. I’ll just hurl myself on a sword if I have to. I would either have to KNOW someone is loves me because I know or I would have to be very slow at it until I know.

          24. SMH says:

            “As far as relationships go I think love should be the focus and it should be obvious who someone loves, protects, feels connected to, supports, independently of other people- so the entire concept of romantic competition doesn’t make sense to me. If I like someone, I like them how I like them completely independently of other people.”

            I totally agree, Nunya Biz. If someone is trying to triangulate you then it is not love or even like. It is a form of abuse.

            For me it is simply a waste of energy to fight with another woman over a man anyway, so I can’t be triangulated either. I don’t want my romantic relationships to suck up all of my energy, which is one reason being with MRN was so hard on me – he did triangulate me with everything BUT other women because I let him know that I would walk away.

            Of course back then I did not understand the whole concept of triangulation – I just knew that I wasn’t interested in competing with another woman – but now I do understand that triagulating can be with anything. If I’d known back then, I would have been much more demanding and maybe saved myself a lot of grief.

            Rules, rules. When I escaped I told him he cannot contact me unless he can stand on his own two feet (as I put it) and is out of his marriage. I also told him that he would never TOUCH me again without proving that he was capable of sustained affection (can’t remember how I put it – but something like that). And even then it would be BOTH of our decisions about what we wanted.

            I KNOW none of this will happen, so I am pretty secure in the knowledge that he won’t be knocking at my door anytime soon or probably ever. If he does, I have my rules.

          25. ava101 says:

            The ex-narc is a misogynist, my narc father was, and I think many of them are and simply use women and extract energy, support, financial benefits, and so on. Also with other ex-boyfriends with narc traits, I had to listen to a lot of anti-female stuff.

            I had just had a small discussion elsewhere about why women still earn less than men, and remembered my math teacher in 11th grade, who certainly qualifies as a narc. He told us women in his class to bring our knitting kit, so we had to do something in class, while we wouldn’t understand the subject anyways. My grades dropped like 70 %. Take a wild guess if my narc parents cared? Narc father didn’t care at all (after all, HE was the math genious in the family, though never even reached that level I had at that time), narc mother used it against me, of course.

          26. nunya biz says:

            Lol, well I guess I’m rooting for the dude to fail, SMH.

  12. Presque Vu says:

    Thank you for this HG!
    I appreciate all you do to protect us!

  13. Leolita says:

    Just watched the Netflix series «Dirty John», what do you call this one, is he a greater ?
    He is so far from my ex narc (must consult you in that regard), that it almost made me think he is not a narcissist after all, but I guess the difference between a lower mid ranger and a greater could be significant / huge?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      The difference is indeed substantial.

      1. Leolita says:

        Ok, so he might be a greater, dirty John?
        And Hey, what happened to my picture? 😉

        1. K says:

          The more I think about it, Dirty John may be a malignant MMRN who thought he was a psychopath.

          1. Leolita says:

            That makes sense. Or maybe he was a sociopath and a (MMR?) narcissist.

          2. K says:

            He had been a nurse anesthetist but was fired for stealing painkillers so I feel confident that he was a Middle Midrange Narcissist but he was very sloppy so I think he was just a malignant MMRN who thought he was a smooth and cunning psychopath.

            He tried to kill Terra but she ended up killing him. Very Sloppy.

          3. Leolita says:

            But do they think they are psychopaths? HG, what do you say?

          4. HG Tudor says:

            Do who think they are psychopaths? (I can’t see your previous comments in the moderation pane).

          5. K says:

            You may find this exchange helpful.

            JANUARY 14, 2019 AT 14:09

            Just to clarify, and make sure I understood this exchange: Mid-Rangers can not realize that they are narcissists but *think* they are psychopaths?

            If yes, is this in anyway related to the ‘reality gap’ that they can exhibit?

            HG Tudor
            JANUARY 14, 2019 AT 16:09
            Correct and yes it is.


          6. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dearest K,
            Mr Bubbles n I, have just now finished watching “Dirty John” The Truth, the “real life” events !😱

            It was interesting to watch it all fall into play, step by step, coinciding with everything Mr Tudor has described in his teachings with complete and utter accuracy
            Thank you Mr Tudor
            Moral of the story …..DONT date on line 🚩
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          7. FYC says:

            John was a nurse anesthetist (who cheated in school) and not an MD anesthetist. His license was stripped. My impression of him, due to his hair trigger temper, yet ability to charm, was a sociopath, LMR.

            Sociopath because he took pleasure from causing pain and destruction, but lacking in high cognitive function to be a psychopath. He also cycled through people and operated alone (consistent with sociopath) versus having a well developed structure of lieutenants.

          8. K says:

            I wasn’t sure on the level (within the school) but LMRN with ASP traits makes sense.

          9. FYC says:

            Sorry, I replied too quickly and missed K’s later comment where she already covered John’s profession.

            Leolita, my understanding from reading a few articles is that only high functioning psychopaths and sociopaths are self aware and even those may not be aware of their condition. I should further note that it is apparent psychiatrists, psychologists and other psychology researchers do not agree on a unified view of these conditions.

          10. FYC says:

            Hi K, I’m am really new to this and not yet good at figuring out the gradients and could be very wrong. Some people here are quite good at it.

            I thought this was an interesting chart on traits: https://pro.psychcentral.com/recovery-expert/2018/04/whats-the-difference-between-a-narcissist-sociopath-and-borderline/

            I’m not sure of narc type, but think the guy on “You” seems more like a psychopath because of higher cognitive function and much greater plotting and patience and cold versus hot malice. Maybe a UMRN or greater? Your thoughts?

            Here’s a link on the differences between sociopath and psychopath: https://psychcentral.com/blog/differences-between-a-psychopath-vs-sociopath/

  14. Bubbles 🍾 says:

    Dear Mr Tudor,
    I was most impressed with your explanations and advice
    We see time and time again women getting caught up in “loved up” scam situations from Nigerian men
    I know Russia and Eastern Europe are ripe as well
    The phishing emails are looking so authentic, it’s easier to get sucked in and I believe businesses are being caught in their professional sophistication methods as well

    “Loneliness” is obviously the biggest contributing factor, however trying to make a quick buck on the “if it sounds to good to be true” scheme is also fraught with danger
    The net is extremely dangerous indeed
    TV is catering to narcs with their “Married at First Sight” type shows …. I think they’re all “professional narcs” (it’s all about ratings n money)
    It does allow us to look at their red flag behaviour, which is a bonus for us empaths
    I think the “old fasioned ways” are best, meeting thru a friend
    If all else fails …. learn to love yourself more or get a pet

    I really liked your ending, it speaks for itself and you couldnt get any clearer ….” so take down that profile, don’t continue to online date because of the narcissists awaiting …and they will …they will get you ”

    Bravo Mr Tudor, another winner
    Thank you
    Luv Bubbles xx 😘

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you, I am pleased you found it useful.

      1. Bubbles 🍾 says:

        Dear Mr Tudor,
        Absolutely…. “all” your advice and information is extremely “useful” and relatable, even though I have no need to “date” nor would I ever again
        We know a lot of young people, thru our kids, who are on Tinder and other dating sites (I’ve just read, they are doing one “specifically” for the “over 50’s)
        From reports and statistics , apparently the highest STD’s are those in their 60’s n 70’s, (children leave home, bored with each other, fallen out of love) and want to “live” life
        Sadly, they’re forgetting the “condoms” because their mindset is…. they’ve all been married to one partner for so long, they’re safe …..more like Russian roulette out there!
        Thank you for forewarning us of the ever increasing current dangers
        Luv Bubbles xx 😘

  15. Better Call HG says:

    Spot on HG! Almost all of my online dating experiences have involved narcs. The scary part is that that the narcs are allowed to operate with relative impunity with online dating because people are ignorant about the narc’s true nature. Things such as “ghosting” and “breadcrumbing” are now seen as common and acceptable instead of the red flags that they are.

    I was very fortunate that I came across your works and am now in a position where I can more easily recognize these types of behaviors and get out before my emotional thinking heightens the risk of ensnarement. I hope others will be as fortunate and that your works will continue to spread and gain a larger audience because this is information that everyone needs to know.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Your observations are entirely accurate.

  16. SMH says:

    This is really good, HG, but I have had mostly decent experiences dating online. Most are just one date because the chemistry is not there, but a few of them have been three or four dates. The scariest experience I had in the past two years was someone I met on the tube!!

    MRN and I met online but only exchanged a few messages before we met in person. During our first meet up, only 45 minutes because he had to get to the airport (we met up near my flat so he did not inconvenience me) he told me where his kids went to school. Big slip up because he did not know that mine went to the same school and that I am also an alum. I told him of course because I thought he was being transparent (this all feeds into my confusion about why he chose to pursue me). But when he was away I looked through all the online yearbooks, to which I had access as an alum, and no one matched the surname he gave me, so I knew he was lying from the get go but I did not tell him. I just played along. The third time we met up, he slipped up about his first name and told me about an event he had to attend that evening, and that is how I found out first and last names. In the long run, of course he ensnared me, but why would someone take such a risk for a SIPSS? Because he thinks he’s superhuman?

    This happened again last autumn with someone I also met online (I did not get ensnared because I was more aware and the chem wasn’t really there). He also had narc traits and was clearly using a fake name/fake email. The second time we met, he told me his full name, and there he was, all over the Internet ( blogs, has a public FB, we have friends in common, etc). I even found his address, landline, and name of his partner and their kid. Is it narc behavior not only to lie but to think you are so infallible that you won’t get caught?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Glad you found it interesting, you evidently are able to avoid/reject at an early stage by moving to the date promptly before ET subsumes you and some of these individuals will not be narcissists.
      Remember most narcissists do not know they are lying or that the being misleading is justified owing to the other person’s perceived poor/antagonistic behaviour towards the narcissist.

      1. SMH says:

        Yes, I don’t tend to chat long before meeting up with someone (or cutting them off). But I have to say that I have gotten much better at sorting the wheat from the chaff now that I have you (though I haven’t actually online dated in months now – no time.)

        I do still forget that narcissists don’t even realize they are lying and cover it up when they are called out.

        1. Presque Vu says:

          Surely it cannot be that bad?
          I personally know of family and friends who have found their husband/wife.

          I also have friends who date and enjoy it.

          Tinder is not for me but what about the paid sites like MATCH and E Harmony? Subscription sites? Plenty of fish I’ve heard horror stories about!

          What about speed dating, I’ve heard loads of positives.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            I am not saying there are not success stories HOWEVER it is teeming with our kind and your kind are highly likely to get ensnared and suffer as a consequence. Our kind are prevalent on Match and E-Harmony.

            I recorded this with regard to narcissism however online dating is not a natural way to meet someone anyway and it creates unrealistic expectations in a false environment meaning more letdowns than success, leaving aside the existence of our kind.

            Speed dating is similarly flawed – not as bad as online – but far from healthy.

          2. Mercy says:

            Presque Vu, it’s bad bad bad. It’s like shopping at a thrift store. You have to sort through all the junk to find a treasure. The sorting is exhausting.

          3. ava101 says:

            HG, when you say, online dating is not a natural way to meet someone anyways — which safe environment do you suggest then?

            As I have mentioned before, I met the ex narc through a group, I knew people who had known him for years … in a setting where I would never have expected a personality like his (I would now, of course). In online dating, I can at least think about how the guy presents himself, and also have written evidence so to speak, what he tells me. Like the current ex-narc-fling told me different facts in the first chats than he did 4 weeks later in person. Had I only met him … I wouldn’t have remembered, and also couldn’t have compared his real self with how he presented himself. I also like to pay attention to how they present themselves on pictures. So … 95% of guys get sorted out anyways (yes, I know, I still managed to pick the narc out of the remaining 5 %, — because he was the only guy worth talking to … well, at that time, anyways.)

          4. HG Tudor says:

            No environment is safe, some are safer than others, but you make your situation safer through Date Defender techniques.

      2. kathy0720 says:

        What do you mean they don’t know they are lying? I know they feel it’s justified but they have to know they aren’t being honest??

        1. HG Tudor says:

          No, they do not.

          1. kathy0720 says:

            I even know if I’m being dishonest! Of course I generally feel a hundred ways wrong and guilty for it!

          2. kathy0720 says:

            R Kelly just stated he is innocent. Came across my news feed. He truly believes he is not culpable? Amazing. Like I would know if I had sex with teen boys I was guilty. It’s the craziest thing HG.

      3. Leolita says:

        What? They dont even know they are lying?? Omg… so confronting will never het us anywhere, ever. how can someone not know they’re telling a lie??

        1. HG Tudor says:

          When it is their truth.

          1. Leo Lita says:

            I see; the truth is subjective to a narcissist…… This is almost funny. That’s not how it is! You know that, right, HG? You know what truth means? Do you agree that not telling is the same as lying, or is this how you also see things, in the heat of the moment?

          2. windstorm says:

            Leo Lita

            Dictionary.com – “Lying: the telling of lies, or false statements; untruthfulness:“

            Not telling someone something is not the same as lying. If I don’t tell someone I went to the movie today, I did not lie to them. I am a very private person. I tend to keep my thoughts, opinions and actions to myself, especially if I think they will be disagreeable to others. No one is required to tell everything they do or think to anyone else.

            Now you can make a case that if you are hiding something from someone else that you are being deceptive, but that’s not the same as lying. Lying is a more deliberate act involving words.

          3. SMH says:

            Windstorm, I think whether deception is the same is lying is a thorny question. We all mislead. We do it every day. But when you are deceptive about things central to a relationship with another person, a relationship that is by necessity based on intimacy and trust, and you maintain the deception even when you know you are misleading the other person (or maybe you don’t know, in the case of a narc), that is lying to my mind. Your whole life is a lie in that case.

            There is a really good web site called “The Truth About Deception” all about the strategies people use to deceive, especially in the context of relationships. It is how I decided that everyone has the right to transparency, including IPPS (and I told MRN this – part of my extreme honesty in light of his extreme deception). I was so confused because no one had ever lied to me before! I had to do Internet searches about lying and all it meant! Anyway, it’s a very interesting website on a complex ethical issue if anyone wants to check it out.

          4. windstorm says:

            “I was so confused because no one had ever lied to me before!”

            I’m trying to wrap my mind around this concept. I don’t think it’s possible. I can’t even imagine it. I’ve been surrounded by lying people all my life. Not just in my family, but at school, my friends, people in authority. Not to mention all the people who would say lies and actually believe them themselves. Lies were everywhere. And I don’t just mean “white lies”. Makes me wonder if other people grew up never being lied to.

          5. SMH says:

            Windstorm, I meant in an intimate relationship. I’ve never had anyone cheat on me (no idea if MRN did but I don’t think so except with IPPS, and in that scenario of course he was cheating on her with me) or lie about their name or marital status, or anything like that. It’s probably the types of men I’ve been involved with – not narcs and so very different from MRN.

          6. K says:

            I am with you on this one WS.

        2. K says:

          It is really weird but, from their altered perspective, it is the truth. It is part of their self-defense mechanism.

          1. Leo Lita says:

            I understand now…. almost like confronting them on these things is beyond them, we are simply too smart for them 😆 cause we are able to fuction outside our self – defense and in the real world… they are not, apparently.

          2. K says:

            Leo Lita
            The empath isn’t necessarily smarter than the narcissist. We are just wired with a different reality/perspective than the narcissist.

            To be clear, they do lie but they won’t accept responsibility because their narcissism won’t allow it. The narcissist maintains the lie in order to preserve fuel and control. I am not sure if you have already read this article but the link below is about how and why the narcissists lies.


          3. NarcAngel says:

            After Gayle King interviewed R. Kelly, she was getting into her vehicle and someone asked if she thought Kelly was telling her the truth. She replied: I think he was telling me HIS truth. I smiled.

        3. SMH says:

          Leolita, It is shocking but here is an example: I once pointed out to my narc that he lied to me (about his name and his marital status) and continued to lie to his wife. His response: ‘how am I lying to my wife?’ I was incredulous (this was before I knew what he was and had found this site) and I responded with just a drip of sarcasm, ‘oh right, we had nooky on Thursday and today is Sunday so of course you are not lying to your wife.’ He would own lies that he had SAID (lies of commission) but not lies that were unsaid (lies of omission). Since his wife hadn’t asked if he was cheating on her, he didn’t have to actually say a lie. That is how they survive. It is a code of dishonor.

          1. Leo Lita says:

            Omg…. but this makes sense. My ex narc also thought it was not lying to just don’t tell. I told him «not telling something is lying’s younger sister» (sounds better in Norwegian I am sure), and he never seemed to agree on that. Now I understand why. Thank you for clearifying! 😊

          2. SMH says:

            Leo Lita,

            I like that phrase “not telling is lying’s younger sister.” It works well in English too! It never occurred to me that omission and comission were different. It took a psychologist friend of mine to point it out (she knew all about MRN and would walk me through a lot of it).

            He also lied by omission to me a lot. For instance, at first I thought he told me he had two daughters and a son but when he had three daughters (I still think he told me he had a son). He let me mention his son and daughters without correcting me. There were many things like that but mostly having to do with his family situation.

            He travelled a lot and would tell me he was going to X place. It wasn’t until I found his public Instagram that I could confirm that he was truthful about that. The places would all match up.

            It was very confusing and I chose to believe him most of the time because it took too much effort on my part to “catch” him in his lies, but I never ever forgave him for his initial lies, and I punished him for it at the end by telling IPPS that her husband was a predator.

          3. Leolita says:

            Windstorm, what you are saying, that not telling is not lying, goes against what the others here are explaining. I guess you have misunderstood, and should read about lies of omission, which seems to be just that (not telling). Of course I am not referring to whether you tell all details – but more that when you deliberately hide information that is important for the existance and foundation of the whole relationship. For example if you do not mention that you went go the movies and then had sex with soneone, while you have promised to be honest about these things. That would definately be the same as witholding important information – and is a form of lying: no matter what your dictionary says

          4. windstorm says:

            Leo lita
            I have read the definition of “lying by omission” and believe I understand what the others are talking about. Lying by omission is not limited to major things that affect primary relationships. Lying by omission includes whenever you don’t tell the whole story to anyone, whenever you leave out details that might make you look bad, or that embarrass you or you are ashamed of, or that you believe might hurt someone else. I’d imagine all of us lie by omission. Who has not failed to say something that might embarrass them or other people?

            Since lying by omission is so widespread and practiced by all virtually daily, I consider it separate from regular lying: deliberately answering incorrectly to a direct question. After all, that’s why it has a separate name – “lying by omission”. And most people acknowledge a difference between the two.

            In my opinion, if you do not ask a question and the narc doesn’t say anything, he has not “lied” to you. No matter how deceived you may be about his actions.

          5. Leo Lita says:

            Maybe HG could clarify whether lying by omission is lying?

          6. HG Tudor says:

            It is when you do it. It is not when we do it.

          7. Leolita says:

            The truth will set you free, but not HG. (I am a poet, too!)

          8. SMH says:

            Good one, HG.

      4. nunya biz says:

        “Remember most narcissists do not know they are lying or that the being misleading is justified owing to the other person’s perceived poor/antagonistic behaviour towards the narcissist.”

        It seems that misogyny comes into play particularly here.

  17. NarcAngel says:

    Entirely accurate to the progression of my sister’s ensnarement. By the time she met him (and that was quick) she was already addicted to him and one meeting had her blind to anything strange about him or his circumstances that we advised caution about. He caught onto me quickly as her protector and started making jokes (planting seeds) about me being off. When they moved in together I advised they see a lawyer to protect them both (I really didn’t care about him of course and she had come into some money). She said that was smart and would comply. He fixed all of that by proposing marriage so of course now she sees no need as all assets (I don’t see much on his side) are joint. My sister asked me to be in the wedding party and I told her that I was honoured but would rather attend as a guest (and also then be available to look after my mother who is almost immobile). She was ok with that until the next week when she showed up at my mother’s. She told my mother that my soon to be BiL said he wasn’t shocked I would decline to be in the wedding because when my sister was outside at Christmas having a smoke, I apparently said horrible things about her and mocked the wedding. That never hapoened and my mother told her that she did not hear that and that furthermore I would not do that to my sister. My sister spat at her that HE wouldn’t lie. My sister has not spoken to me directly about any of it and I am continuing to be smeared. So be it. If she wants to believe a bit of cock over someone who has spent their life protecting her, then she is welcome to him and everything that comes with it.

    1. WhoCares says:


      I’m sorry; that’s got to hurt:

      “If she wants to believe a bit of cock over someone who has spent their life protecting her, then she is welcome to him and everything that comes with it.”

      And it would be really hard to sit back watch happen…it is absolutely frustrating knowing what we know here but not being able to help those that we care about, simply because they can’t see what we see.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        Not sure which is harder. Thinking as a child that your experience and feeling of isolation was an anomaly, or realizing as an adult that we are legion.

        1. WhoCares says:

          I don’t know NarcAngel – sometimes even with the power of knowledge it still feels isolating – at least to me. I’m just trying to solve my own basic problems…and I hear others around me asking “Why is he doing that?” “Why would she do such a thing?”…and I feel like that monkey with its hands over its ears because the knowledge is very isolating and I want to be that monkey or I just want to run away…
          Sorry; I’m griping because I’m feeling sorry for myself right now. But I do understand what you’re saying.

        2. santaann1964 says:

          Wow that’s a powerful statement!

    2. Bubbles 🍾 says:

      Dear NarcAngel,
      Sorry to hear about your plight precious one
      It’s amazing how a man’s appendage has the power to keep a woman hooked by her “short n curlies”…..ooops, slips, everyone waxes these days
      Stay strong beautiful and hopefully you’ll be there to catch her when she falls
      Luv Bubbles xx 😘

    3. Mercy says:

      NarcAngel, this story just made me sick. As soon as you said he proposed I thought “there goes the assets”. It’s unfortunate you’re being treated this way especially when you are the one that will be lifting her from the ground when devaluation starts. She doesn’t see this, you know that from reading all of our experiences. I know it has to be hard watching someone you’ve protected your whole life go through this. She will have to learn the hard way and you’ll be the rock she needs when she finally sees him for what he is. Unfortunately it’s going to be a painful journey for her.

    4. FYC says:

      Hi Narc Angel, I’m not sure of your area specific laws, but generally property owned by a spouse prior to marriage is separate property *unless* commingled in a bank account, joint property purchase or other joint purchase after marriage. Not sure how commingling during cohabitation muddies the legal waters. Perhaps you could suggest she simply keep her separate property in her own separate account? She can always decide to make a withdrawal to share, but if he tries to take advantage, at least what is left would be protected. She is lucky to have a sister that cares. Hope this helps.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        Thank you for your reply and advice. I did previously suggest that to her and she appeared to consider that sound advice and said she would pursue it. All that has changed now with the engagement as she sees it irrelevant since they will be married (sigh). I fear it wouldn’t matter much anyway as he is currently getting her to see his ‘logic’ in things she never had interest in before (building a home in the woods etc). He already has her doing renovations and work to his home for eventual sale to realize this ‘dream’ together. What is frustrating is that he is no magician believe me (although I’m sure he likes to thinks so) she is just desperately blind and easily manipulated due to lack of self esteem. It’s like watching a car wreck.

        1. FYC says:

          I’m sorry to hear that. You are spot on, and actually, it is far more relevant now. It is hard to see your sister make a huge mistake. My sister made a similar mistake (but I knew nothing of narcissism at the time and just thought he was a controlling jerk) and they divorced. She brought a lot into the relationship, commingled funds and took quite a loss as a result. I hope your sister reconsiders.

          I saw a program about a narc who used online dating and aliases to gain access to women’s assets. He promised marriage (or got married), then discarded them when they caught on (for some it took years) and moved on to the next victim he already lined up. He was eventually arrested for fraud and stolen valor after amassing and spending over $20M in stolen assets from his victims.

          Do you think his desire for a house in the woods is a control tactic to isolate her from others? From your description I am sufficiently concerned.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            Yes I do think he is trying to isolate her. He is an only child and his mother is elderly (father passed) and has expressed that he has no use for populated areas once he is retired (in next 5 yrs I believe) as he is an avid outdoorsman. He often goes off hunting and fishing for periods of time without her (I can only imagine what for) in remote areas (she has been with him on some trips but he makes many alone) He has filled her head with romantic notions of them building a log house in the woods together so they need not be apart. When I pointed out that despite his being older, having no young children, and a good paying job for years that he has not done any work around his house (it is in great need of repair despite him espousing that he is handy) it was not well received. An example: In the bathroom the tile and drywall has been in pieces for years. A complete shambles. My sister purchased a mirror for over the sink and asked him to attach it to the wall. She went in one morning to find a small hand mirror taped to the wall so he could shave. Quite above where it would be of any use to my sister as she is shorter. The mirror she purchased remains on the floor. She has purchased him expensive tools to aid in the completion of jobs that remain unfinished. She is in love with his potential (in her mind) and the dream he has supplied and she is buying it. He is already isolating her from family by alleging things that were said but that are untrue and causing her to withdraw.

          2. WhoCares says:

            NarcAngel – I agree with FYC…it’s hard for me to focus on your exchange, actually, over the alarm bells in my head: DON’T BUILD A HOME IN THE WOODS WITH A NARC!

          3. FYC says:

            The program was “Seduced by Evil” on oxygen network about David Alldred. Worth watching.

          4. FYC says:

            Sorry, during my search for the program I noticed I got the total loss number wrong, reports vary but it was closer to sub USD $500k, not sure of actual total.

          5. FYC says:

            NarcAngel, Wow! SO many red flags! I understand your concerns completely. I hope she sees the light before it’s too late. I feel sick about it and I don’t even know her.

  18. Jenna says:


    Do you think Nick Jonas is a narc? He got married after dating his wife for only a few months. After being educated here, I know that is a red flag.

    How are you and SM doing? Are you on cloud 9 in the golden period? Are you very happy? Well, you don’t do happy, but do you feel elated? Would that be the correct word to use?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      1. I do not know enough about him to make an accurate assessment.

      2. We are excellent well, thank you for asking.

      1. Jenna says:

        You’re very welcome, Sir!

  19. kathy0720 says:

    Oh I forgot to tell you I cracked up over the reference to the lessers hiding their trailers. (I think you said something like that!) If I ever wake up next to a toothless lesser in a yucky single wide I’m going to jump off a bridge. At that point I’m done.

  20. nfl3 says:

    Ahhh your voice, always gets me!!! Excellent advice, and so true about self-flagellation.

    Have had similar experiences with Facebook and Instagram. Friends of friends, even strangers, and people from the past. Only post photos of scenery and kittens now.

    Current narc uses a photo that is decades old on his work profile.

    I will share this with all my friends that use online dating.

    Thank you, you have a way of explaining that makes it so clear.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome, I am pleased you found it helpful.

  21. kathy0720 says:

    Excellent. I am not doing online dating, but I’m friends with many who do and there is a lot of confusion about it expressed by certain encounters/behaviors. (Things you discussed.) I’ve been witness to some success stories of course, but it’s not worth my time or level of tolerance. I posted this in a divorce group I am in on FB. As always, so glad to have your honesty! By the way—- I’m seeing more and more of your kind. The education of and employment of logical thinking is developing. Of course the lessers aren’t too hard to spot, especially with their easily accessible online domestic violence and menacing histories! But I’m seeing mid-range stuff I never wouldn’t been in tune to before and of course those types are my social circle.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you for sharing my work.

      1. kathy0720 says:

        No thank you for giving me peace. Your work speaks for itself.

  22. Sarah says:

    H G, you could make me unconsciously remove my panties whilst reciting the phone book

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I will add that to my CV.

      1. Sarah Jane says:

        Your sense of humour is so attractive.

    2. NarcAngel says:

      You should see all the panties I have to kick out of the way on my journey to the naughty stool!

      1. foolme1time says:

        NA I told you commando is the way to go! Then you don’t have all of those panties to kick out of your way! Apparently HG has not established such a rule for the naughty step?! 🙃

        1. mommypino says:

          My MRE sister didn’t wear underwear. She told me that it just gets in the way.

          1. kathy0720 says:

            It just depends on the company for the evening! Sometimes a little lace is nice to show off! Ha!

    3. foolme1time says:


    4. candacemarie1212 says:

      I agree H G’s voice is amazing 😀

    5. santaann1964 says:

      Hysterical! But in a way true. Fascinating isn’t it?

      1. Sarah Jane says:

        Oh yes *the nodding Churchill dog*

  23. 69Revolver says:

    Nah, that’s ok. I’ll go ahead and thank you now. Thank you.

    In the past, you made sure we knew this fact. I haven’t forgotten.

    1. HG Tudor says:


  24. Sarah says:

    Very informative, Mr Tudor – I could listen to your voice all day.

    I met my narc online years ago. Met him once. He went a bit cold turkey on me when I wanted a relationship, but is now wanting to come to my house again. And wanting to come ‘regularly’, without me meeting anyone on his 70 mile apart side.

    Guess I’m the DLS.

  25. mommypino says:

    Excellent article! I agree with everything in that article. I have to say though that it is almost a cruel design of nature that a lot of empaths are introverts and are more comfortable in talking to someone online first than meeting them in person right away. Even the extrovert empaths are more introverted than most extroverts. For example I have read that ENFPs and ENTPs are the most introverted extroverts. So because of that, a lot of empaths also rely on online dating to find their match.
    I never used online dating when I was single because I was new in this country and the thought of me meeting a stranger that I met online was scary. I was just lucky that I met my husband at my work if not I probably would have been an old maid because I didn’t have a wide social circle. And actually, I would not even have ended up with my husband if not for my MRE sister. She realized that I had the biggest crush on him because I wouldn’t stop talking about him and pushed me to ask him out. I could never do it, every time I tried to open my mouth I couldn’t say the words. So she decided to call him in his office and ask him out for me. It turns out that he also had a big crush on me but couldn’t ask me out because I was too young for him. So we ended up being in a relationship which served my sister well because as soon as he invited me to live with him I moved out of our deceased dad’s house which I was sharing with my sister at that time. She was able to keep that beautiful house for herself and I was able to find a way to get out of my toxic dynamic with my sister. So actually if not for my narcissist sister, I probably would have been still single.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      That is a good point about being more comfortable online.

    2. Lou says:

      That’s kind of a funny story, Mommypino. May I ask how did you react to your sister asking your now husband out for you and how did that first date go for you (since you’re an introverted person)? Wasn’t it difficult for you to go to a date you didn’t ask or weren’t asked directly?

      1. mommypino says:

        Lou, she did it against my will lol. I just told her the story of him giving me his cellphone number because I told him that I got lost going to a local state park. She tried to grab his number from me but I didn’t let her. So she looked him up at the phone book and called his home. He said at first he thought that he was in trouble for flirting with me that she would tell him to leave me alone. I was mortified and tried to grab the phone from her but we were in her codependent bestfriend’s house and he told me to calm down and trust her. We have been interacting for almost five months at the bank before this for almost every day. Every body at the bank knew there was some chemistry because he went to the bank at least once a day, a lot of times even three times a day and he always went to my window. He wouldn’t let the other tellers help him. One time I was in a grumpy mood my bank manager told him that she’s glad he came because I’m grumpy today. I wasn’t shy exchanging banters with him but I just didn’t have the guts to turn a platonic relationship into a romantic. The first date was great, we clicked right away. 😊

        1. Lou says:

          So your now husband gave you his phone number in case you got lost (going to a state park)?!
          That is a very sweet and very good (and evident) excuse to give someone your phone number!
          Although I do believe he was just trying to be nice to you.
          Well, I guess that’s one thing you can thank your narc sister for.
          I am trying to think if there’s something I can thank my narcissister for…

          Nope, nothing comes to my mind right now.

          1. mommypino says:

            Lou, it was just a fortunate coincidence for me. At that time my sister was beginning to date this wealthy guy who owned a local bank here (which he sold to a bank chain) so she needed our house for herself to be able to entertain guests and do what she wants any time and any way she wanted. I was in the way and she didn’t need my fuel anymore because of him. It was pure coincidence but she never did anything for me out of pure benevolence.

          2. Lou says:

            MP, I didn’t think your sister had phoned your now husband because she had your best interests at heart. I actually thought she had done it because you both were at her friend’s house and she had wanted to make fun of your situation and your crush on your now husband in front of her friend. But now I understand better why she did it. Thanks for sharing that.
            Sorry for the delayed reply. I just got to go through the comments!

          3. mommypino says:

            Thank you Lou, no worries on the delayed reply. Thank you for your replies and for reading my story. 😊

          4. Lou says:

            MP, just wanted to say the following about my narcissister. She has not been nice towards me most of my life (starting from our early teenage years), but she was ok when we were little kids. She used to organize very nice games to play together and I must say she was quite intelligent and creative at doing it.
            I actually do not have hard feelings towards her because I witnessed the terrible abuse she suffered from our mother. I know why she became the passive aggressive MR narc she has become and I understand her reactions towards me. However, I do keep my distance from her because I do need to protect myself from her abuse.
            I am not writing this in relation with anything you wrote about your sister (I know you didn’t grow up together and thus your story is different). I am just writing it because I want to be fairer towards my sister. That’s all.

          5. mommypino says:

            Lou, that is sad. It must be harder for you because you grew up together. My half brother was not aware that our sister was a narc but he avoided her and our oldest sister. When I just got here they seemed like they have a good relationship. But one Christmas Eve our MRE sister got his wife so angry that I actually saw her screening and crying while jumping on their guest bedroom bed and my half brother told our MRE sister to leave them alone and closed the door. Apparently she has always been toxic and passive aggressive towards our sister in law but that night was the last straw. The reason for that big fight was really petty, our MRE sister got mad that our brother and his wife visited us by surprise because she said that they should have called and let us know in advance that they will be coming so she was giving them a silent treatment. Then the morning of Christmas Eve our MRE sister told all of us in our bedrooms that Santa came and we need to look at the fireplace and we saw that she stole one sock from each of us while we were sleeping and filled it up with candies. We all thought that it was cool and proceeded to the breakfast room to eat. Apparently that offended her because we were not ecstatic enough with all of the efforts that she did. We didn’t even look at the stuff inside our socks. So I felt bad for our MRE sister because I felt that it was our fault that we could have been more appreciative because she did something extraordinarily thoughtful. But she was doing this sulking and pouting and smart ass responses when we would talk to her the whole day. We had a pleasant exchange gift and Christmas Eve dinner but all of a sudden they started arguing which I didn’t really hear how it developed. But apparently our MRE sister didn’t like that they only got us gift cards and not a real present while she thoughtfully shopped for each of us. I was thankful that I got her a present so she didn’t get mad at me. And then Christmas morning before my brother and SIL left, they told me the instances when our MRE sister was not nice to them through the years. Apparently my brother couldn’t stand both of his sister whenever he visited that he would just always spend his days at the library to avoid them. But I could tell that he still loves our MRE sister although he was thankful that when she became homeless I was the one who took her in because he said that he didn’t want her. I also love her and I vacillate between memories that make me cherish her and memories that piss me off. She was amazingly creative and fun as well and an example was what she did with our socks that morning. I loved having picnics with her where we had these adorable baskets and quilts and we were so picture perfect. But she was really mean when she was in the mood for it. So I don’t fully hate her, it’s more like a mixed emotion for me.

          6. mommypino says:

            Sorry I forgot to write because I got too sidetracked with my back story, I think it must be really hard for you because you grew up with your sister and have a much stronger bond with her. When my MRE sister died and we threw away her ashes to the ocean (we didn’t scatter it because my brother didn’t want to get caught because he thought it might not be legal so he just hurled the bag of her ashes when no one was looking, Munich SIL and I were the lookouts.), I saw in my brother’s eyes and face that he was more hurt by her death than me. I remember when he visited us before the big fight they always talked about their childhood together. So I bet that it must have hurt him so much that his relationships with both his sisters were broken.

          7. Lou says:

            Mommypino, I didn’t know your sister had passed away. Sorry, I missed that.
            Your story about her sulking because, in her opinion, you weren’t appreciative enough of her gesture reminded me of my narcissister. That’s the kind of thing she does. She loves giving us her traditional Christmas Sulk (we usually celebrate it in her house) because we didn’t thank her enough or appreciated all her efforts so that we could have a nice Christmas celebration. It is pathetic but it actually and secretly amuses me.
            She can be very nice and very mean to me. I just let her be whatever she wants to be with me. I am used to her passive aggressiveness.
            This being said, I would certainly be very saddened by her passing away. Somehow I have more sympathy for her than for other narcs in my life.

          8. mommypino says:

            HI Lou, Thank you. It is a weird dynamic between me and my half siblings. I grew up in another country knowing that I have half siblings and that I was a love child and that my dad was married as early as I could remember. That I thank my matrinarc for treating me like an adult to tell me about the situation in a non emotional manner so there was no drama or transition for me regarding that. It was just a given fact. But I have always been wanting to know about them and cared about them and loved the idea that I do have siblings. My dad protected their identities from my matrinarc so I didn’t even know how they looked like or what their names were. But my feelings towards them have always been positive. They didn’t know that I existed because dad didn’t let his family know that he had an affair with my mom. When his wife passed away he wanted to be with me so badly but waited for them to grieve for about two years before telling them about me and working to help me get my citizenship. Only my non narcissist brother took it in stride although of course he was shocked and I’m sure not excited about it. The oldest sister (probably a Lesser) disowned our dad and our two other siblings who refused to disown our dad when she told them to. My MRE sister didn’t disown dad and met me and pretended to help me in front of dad and others but undermined me privately. The first day that I met her I caught her rolling her eyes at me when she didn’t think that I was looking even though she got me a garnet necklace where me, my dad and SIL were so impressed by her nice gesture and generosity. But it seemed like it has always been all for show. I think that I have been painted black before I even met her but she just tried her best to hide it. We had fun moments but those moments were more like showing me how much more cultured and superior she was compared to me and would also inject her mom’s memory and made me feel guilty about it as much as she could. Although it didn’t stop me from enjoying them. She had a way of making everything beautiful. We had the prettiest picnics, the best Halloween-decorated house in our street etc. She was so particular about setting the table because her mom went to Stanford to study Home Economics and was an expert at that. It was almost like we could host the Queen of England with how proper and beautiful everything was. And she credited her mom always. So when she died, I still didn’t know hat she was a narc, I mourned for someone who has made an impact in my life. But I’m not sure if I can say that I truly loved her. I think I did love her but not as much as my husband and my kids and my brother or matrinarc. My matrinarc verbally and physically abused me but there’s no question that I love her. My brother on the other hand, I can tell that he truly loved our sister but he was caught between her and my SIL. When we were going to dump her ashes to the ocean, our brother started asking us about what we remember about her and we all said that she was very intelligent and fun and then all of a sudden I realized that my SIL and I were already talking about our bad experiences and my brother was just quiet. So we both stopped. I think that it is sad for him that someone that he loved from childhood became that difficult and self-destructive.

          9. Lou says:

            Hi MP. It is very interesting to read about your story and your relationship with your half siblings. Thanks for sharing it.
            I did not know one could go to Stanford to study home economics! My narc sister has a masters in biochemistry but I think she should have studied home economics instead; it would have served her better in her present life. LOL. I would be in BIG trouble if she could read what I just wrote. She would give me a silent treatment for at least one year. I am just kidding though.
            As I said, in general, I actually have sympathy for her. My Darth Mother is another story though.
            Thanks again for sharing MP.

          10. mommypino says:

            Hi Lou, it was in the late 40s or late 50s when she went to Standford. She actually wanted to go there to be a doctor but her dad told her that she shouldn’t because she was just a woman. So she went there to learn how to cook, make quilts and do needlework. I suspect that he was a narc. He was a professor there.
            That’s funny that you have a nickname for your matrinarc. I think that you’re Louskywalker on IG. I enjoy reading your comments there. I actually learned the term ACoN from you last year. It sounds like your narc sister is so amazingly smart. Anyway, I have written so much stuff here that I would never want all of the people that I talked about to know. Thank goodness we are anonymous here. Thank you for reading my stories. I would love to know about yours when you’re in the mood to tell and I’ll keep an eye for your posts.

          11. SMH says:

            Mommypino, Thank goodness we are anonymous here is right! You can say that again!

        2. Lou says:

          Mommypino, so your now husband gave you his phone number in case you got lost going somewhere?!
          That’s a sweet and very evident excuse to give someone your phone number!
          Although I do believe he was also trying to be nice to you.
          It’s not always easy to take the first step and ask someone out or go on a date, so at least you have that to thank your narc sister.
          I am trying to think if there’s something I can thank my narcissister for but nothing comes to mind….
          I will think about it.

      2. mommypino says:

        Lou, also speaking of rewriting history, my MRE sister rewrote that and told my husband that I asked her to call him and ask him out for me. It didn’t matter that there was a witness when it happened.

      3. mommypino says:

        I just realized my original story said my sister called him in his office. I was trying to make the story short but actually she called him in his office first which she got from a phone book, then she listened to his recording giving his home phone for his patients who really need him so she called his home. His youngest daughter answered and took a message and her phone number. He called my sister back and he thought that he was in trouble. Then my sister asked him to call me and ask me out. It was a quite complicated and long story which I tried to shorten lol.

        1. Lou says:

          I think my reply to Mommypino got lost in its way to Narcsite.
          Man, I have to rewrite the whole thing again!

        2. Lou says:

          Oh, I think my first message to MP probably did make it through. Sorry for the double message.

  26. MB says:

    Just listened. Good information as always HG. New recordings always make me feel like a kid at Christmas when I open them. They are a gift!

  27. Empower Empaths says:

    How do we get rid of this “addiction” to the Narcs?! Is this even possible?! Perhaps just the knowledge of the red flags etc….🤔😭

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You cannot, but you can manage it effectively through the application of my work.

      1. Kristin says:

        I am questioning my reality and wondering if my ex is a narc. Would you be willing to help me? I am not sure if I’m the narc or him. As he claims I’m evil among other horrible things. All the while I’m in a million pieces. I love him so much and thought he was borderline all these years until he completely destroyed me emotionally and broke up with me a week before my father died. I keep wanting to see the person who loved me so much again. I’m scared of what he will do next as he is seething in anger towards me but says the reason why he left me is because I treated him as an “appliance” and have anger issues. I have never even thought of the term appliance to describe another person before!! I’m so lost. Is it me like he says???? He also got arrested for a DV against me and says I planned it all out and baited him so he would lose control. He acted insane with the police maced 3 times and tased 3 times. He is now on probation and blames me for ruining his life. Theres so much more. I don’t know if you take private emails. I’m so lost.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You should organise a consultation, please see the menu bar.

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