Do Narcissists Know What They Are Doing? The Mid Ranger


Previously I addressed whether the Lesser Narcissist knows what he or she is doing and why, but now let us examine the Mid Range Narcissist. You may well accept that the Lesser, unrefined battering ram that he or she is, just ploughs through life oblivious to the harm they cause, but surely the more cognitively blessed Mid Range narcissist is well aware of what he is doing? He plots and plans, yes? He knows precisely how to manipulate and thinks it through, scheming in advance to get the right result for him?


The Mid Range Narcissist (Lower Mid, Middle Mid and Upper Mid) has an increased level of cognitive function beyond the Lesser. The Mid Ranger also exhibits cognitive (fake) empathy, knowing enough of how he or she is expected to behave in order to fit in, to con and thus ensnare. However, despite this increased cognitive function – and the Upper Mid Range Narcissist may be highly intelligent – it is instinct that once again rules the behaviours and response of the narcissist.

The Mid Ranger does not sit in a hollowed-out volcano like some Bond villain rubbing his hands together and scheming. He or she does not think about all the ways he or she can ruin the life of the empath in the forthcoming weeks. Their narcissism operates in a way, as ever, as a self-defence mechanism to enable the Mid Ranger to function and be effective – because he or she has not developed other coping mechanisms which non-narcissists have, to navigate a path through life. The operation of this is instinctive.

Does the Mid Ranger think that he will sit and sulk so he can assert control over his long-suffering spouse and gain fuel as she begs him to speak to her? No. He instinctively sits in silence because that is the optimum response as a consequence of him having been wounded. His narcissism operates to make him issue a silent treatment. This of course draws fuel and asserts his perceived superiority over the relevant appliance, but he does not decide to give a silent treatment, he just does it. He knows that he is not speaking to her.

Does the Mid Ranger decide that she will issue a pity play to her colleagues about the way she has been passed over for promotion, thus smearing the boss and gaining sympathy fuel from those listening? No, it is her manipulative response to having been wounded by not gaining the promotion.

Does the Mid Ranger recognise that his cold put downs upset you? Yes. He sees your tears, hears the hurt in your voice and your pained expression. This provides him with fuel (although he does not recognise as such) and he feels the power flowing from the provision of such fuel. This reaction to the flow of power might be to smile or smirk at you. You may then think, “He knows what he is doing.” No, he knows his action hurts you, but he feels no guilt, no remorse, no upset at behaving this way because as ever, from the narcissistic perspective, it is entirely justified.

To understand this further, imagine there is a Mid Range Narcissist and a victim. Husband and wife. Both have been at work during the day. The narcissist called his wife twice during the afternoon but she did not answer – this wounds him. She also failed to call him back. He is wounded again. His wife, as his Intimate Partner Primary Source is painted black as a consequence of his split thinking. Thus, from his narcissistic perspective everything she says and does will be viewed through a ‘black lens’ until she becomes painted white again. A normal, healthy person would work out that her failure to answer and return the call means she is busy, perhaps in a meeting. The narcissist, governed by paranoia and the overwhelming need to control is wounded. This person is not doing what he wants, his sense of entitlement (that she should be available) is dented. He feels like he is losing control. He starts to feel powerless and is reminded of a time when he once was regularly made to feel that way. This situation must be addressed – he must assert his superiority and his blackened view of his spouse will enable him to do this.

His wife is at home first. The husband walks through the door and she greets him with

“Hello darling, what have you been doing?”

An innocuous and pleasant question, enquiring thoughtfully about her husband’s day.

The husband does not regard it that way. His narcissism demands that he asserts control and that she is punished for her transgression. He does not think

“She did not answer my call, I must punish her. She did not call me back, I must assert control.”

Those needs for control and punishment are automatic and instinctive. Her question is viewed as prying, controlling and unnecessary.

“What’s it got to do with you?” he snaps at her. His blackened view of her meaning his response is provocative and unpleasant. His wife is taken aback, her expression changes to one of hurt and the narcissist receives fuel from this.

“Sorry? What’s wrong? Why are you being like that?” she asks in a hurt tone.

These questions are challenge fuel. Her emotion gives him fuel, but because she is querying him, she is challenging him and thus (viewed by the narcissist) continues to reject control and rebel against him.

The Mid Ranger does not think

“Ah good, she is upset and confused. I know I will keep this going.” Instead, his instinctive response, which is automatic and swift in order to preserve him as his self-defence mechanism should, causes him to respond

“There’s nothing wrong with me. It’s you, always prying, asking me questions, trying to control me.”

The wife is taken aback once again. She knows she is not controlling (but then she may start to doubt this of course) but she is confused. Her confusion is welcome, it makes her easier to control. Her responses keep fuelling the narcissist. The Mid Ranger however is not considering what he will say next in order to keep confusing her, he is not considering how to gain more fuel from her, he is not considering how to assert his control over her, it all happens as a matter of instinct. He knows she is upset, but it is her fault because the narcissism makes it anybody’s fault save that of the narcissist. He knows that his comments trouble her, but they are necessary because she is the aggressor.

A third party watching this scene would decide that the narcissist responded unpleasantly at the outset and thus he is the problem.

The narcissist does not and cannot see that. He thinks he is the victim. He thinks his spouse is the problem because she failed to answer his call and call him back. His narcissism makes him think she is controlling  and thus he RESPONDS to her abusive behaviour and accordingly he is not the instigator. This is why, coupled with a lack of remorse and guilt is why the Mid Range Narcissist sees nothing wrong with what he is doing because all he is doing is responding to the unreasonable behaviour of another and therefore he is in the right.

This increased cognitive awareness of the Mid Ranger also gives rise to the façade. A Lesser would have an affair and would not care who knows – the cuckolded spouse is at fault for whatever reason he chooses and anybody who dares to say anything bad about his infidelity is a moron. The Mid Range Narcissist knows that society regards infidelity as a bad thing. He does not and moreover his narcissism will give him plenty of reasons why he should commit it. However, because he has enough cognitive awareness to recognise that it is frowned upon, he will hide the affair (unless there is an overriding beneficial reason not to) which gives the appearance that he feels bad about his behaviour. Not so, he does not want his façade damaged, he does not want the aggravation of the steady home life (with its attendant fuel and residual benefits) damaged. but again he does not think in such terms, he just knows that people will frown on him for cheating on his wife, so he keeps it hidden.

It may seem that the Mid Range Narcissist does indeed feel guilty for his behaviour. That he is genuinely sorry and he will make amends. Not at all. Again, he knows enough from instinctive observation that not talking to someone for a week is hurtful and viewed as a ‘bad thing’ and will even go so far as to admit that BUT there will always be a reason or an excuse. He will say

“I know it hurts you when I do not speak to you for a week BUT if you didn’t nag me, I would not need a time out.”

He instinctively blame shifts within this moment of apparent contrition.

Some Middle Mid Rangers and Upper Mid Rangers may plan to correct the perceived wrongs they have suffered, but this remains an instinctive response. He does not think – “I know this is wrong what I am planning, but what the hell, I will do it anyway.” He knows people may regard it as wrong, but he knows that he is justified because he has been offended, hurt, wronged in some way – namely wounded or challenged – and thus his action is justified and necessary.

When the Mid Ranger lies, he does not know that he is lying. The lie is his truth because his narcissism causes it to be – his narcissism will deflect blame, apportion blame to you, revise history, deny and so forth – all part of the instinctive responses which are totally necessary for the narcissist to regain and maintain control and is as a result of the The Narcissist’s Twin Lines of Defence

When the Mid Ranger gas lights, he does not know he is doing so. He may be contradicting what he said five minutes ago but his narcissism blinds him to this, it has to so the defence mechanism remains intact and effective, and therefore he genuinely believes what he is saying is correct and moreover you are wrong and therefore you are the problem.

This is why Mid Range Narcissists believe that they are good people, indeed empathic people and that the other person (the real victim) is the problem. This is why the real victim is labelled as an abuser, a tormentor and even a narcissist and the Mid Range Narcissist truly believes this to be the case. He does not think “I know I am the problem and she is not, but I am going to mess with her head” – he really believes the victim is the trouble maker because that way his responses and actions have absolute conviction, have the best possible chance of a successful outcome (namely fuel and control) and thus the manipulation goes on and on with no prospect whatsoever for change.

99 thoughts on “Do Narcissists Know What They Are Doing? The Mid Ranger

  1. Cassidy says:

    Hg – One time my ex and I were out to dinner and we were talking about my dog barking too much and he suggested I should just kill it and I just ignored the comment and he said “you know you can push back” and I lied and said “I know I just don’t want to, it’s just a dog.” Does that mean he has awareness that he wants me to react? Would a mid ranger be able to have that awareness?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Assuming he is a narcissist (and that has to be clarified) he is provoking you into responding with such a comment and it is not a marker of awareness.

  2. Whitney says:

    Hi HG, the UMR Elite Narcissist who ensnared me is very likable.

    He practically raped me because:
    -He put his hand down my pants while pretending to be asleep.
    -He pretended he wanted me to be his wife so I’d have sex with him.
    -He got me extremely drunk.

    Since then he claims to be my friend. He messages me regularly and is extremely nice and supportive, he takes a big interest in my life. He took me on his boat for my birthday. Everyone thinks he is nice. Even my best friend who I told everything above really likes him. She thinks he just sees me as a friend.

    I told him I’m not going to talk to him anymore because I have feelings for him and he said “I didn’t mean for it to be like this. I was 100% just trying to be a good friend”.

    Do you think he saw me as a friend? This is bad for my ego. I prefer to think he saw me as more than a friend. He put a lot of attention and energy into me after we had sex but he didn’t try to have sex with me again. He would come out to social events and stare and focus on me. Is that because I was his best friend there?

    I wonder what he will do now that I’m cutting him off.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      He sees you at an unconscious level as an appliance.

      1. Whitney says:

        Thanks. He listens and supports me emotionally and I don’t even ask about him. It’s all about me. I don’t know what he gets out of being friends with me.

        1. Whitney says:

          I told him he shouldn’t have had sex with me and he said “I am very very sorry”. I deleted him from Facebook and asked if I could re-add him and he said “I’m always your friend”.

        2. Empath007 says:

          “It’s all about me”… until it’s all about them. Not all of them talk a lot, the smart ones will listen

  3. Tina says:

    Thank you for writing this. I learned a lot from it that I would have never known as an empath.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

  4. Korova says:

    HI HG, is it possible that narcissist (mid-range) discards (disengages) not by disappearing or not by telling you it is over but by sabotaging and provoking you to dump him?

    For example he plans a weekend together but gives you a silent treatment before. So you get mad and tell him “I am not going anywhere with you if you are going to ignore me and act like I am nothing”. And he tells you “well ok, it is your choice” – he doesn’t say it but you know it means it will be over so he makes it your decision. If you won’t go he will tell you next day “we are not together anymore and it was your choice, bye”, if you go you will be still together but you will feel like a garbage without a dignity.

    So is it a discard? Why the narcissist wants YOU to make that decision? Is it planned? Is it a narcissistic move? What does he get from it?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      That is a disengagement because he has made the decision but blames you for it, after all, it can never be his fault.

      1. nunya biz says:

        That explains a little bit something I was wondering about.

      2. Fuel FREE on the Shelf says:

        “That is a disengagement because he has made the decision but blames you for it, after all, it can never be his fault.”

        Yep….I dealt with this constantly.

  5. Alexissmith2016 says:

    HG, a slightly dumb question, when you’re talking about somatic Ns, just to clear this up on my own head, they’re not necessarily actually good looking (although many will be) they just beleive they are, is that correct?

    1. HG Tudor says:


      1. Alexissmith2016 says:

        Thanks HG!

        It is quite hilarious! Especially when I think of the N I know who truly believes he looks like George Clooney.

        Another started going to church a few years ago and he grew his hair really long. I believe this was in an attempt to look like Jesus!

  6. Francesca Lupi says:

    When I was in the love-bombing phase, he looked like able to recognize a bad behavior or an excessive reaction when he had to judge a situation in which he wasn’t involved… So, my question is: how is it possible that he can’t judge itself with the same criterion? For example, if he look at someone who has a reaction of excessive fury for a bad reason, he was capacle to say: that’s totally wrong, that’s not correct. So, how is it possible that he never stops to reflect on his behavior and recognize that he would never forgive the same behavior from another person? He really don’t know that? Thanks if you will answer.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      The narcissism blinds him to it as part of its role as a self-defence mechanism.

  7. Fuel FREE on the Shelf says:

    “When the Mid Ranger lies, he does not know that he is lying. The lie is his truth because his narcissism causes it to be – his narcissism will deflect blame, apportion blame to you, revise history, deny and so forth –”

    Okay then why does my MRN admit that he lies?

    “I am a very good liar. Everyone always believes everything I say”

    Sounds to me like he knows he is is lying AND knows that everyone will believe him. Why admit that?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      No he isn’t.

      He is exhibiting grandiosity – “I am brilliant, I am a very good liar, everyone believes me.” He is not actually focussing on the telling of lies (because he does not actually accept that he lies) what he is doing here is claiming to be an expert manipulator (I am very good – but is he? Where’s the external evidence for that – probably none, for instance, you note that he lies) and also (“everyone” (really?) “always” (really?) believes “everything” (really?)) he thinks he is better than he is . This is not an admission about lying, it is actually about grandiosity and thinking he is superior.

      Note this is a general principle he is stating and there is no perceived downside to him because it is stated as a general principle.
      Next time if you accuse him of lying (and you should not be doing so because you should apply GOSO) about something specific to your interaction, the response will not be an admission of lying. You will receive the Twin Lines of the Narcissist’s Defence.

      1. Fuel FREE from the Shelf says:

        Thank you for clarifying HG. I’ve commented before about how he always “seems” to have an awareness as to what he’s doing and how he’s acting. I just attributed this to one of those times.

        Oh and he said he started attending therapy. I’m not even going to get into that one. 🤦🏻‍♀️

      2. shesaw says:

        HG, what Fuel FREE on the Shelf quoted, triggered me too.
        I find it harder and harder to believe that they don’t know that they lie. A lie detector often makes it evident that at least the body of the narcissist ‘knows’ he/she is lying: they show in body language if they lie. (F.i. there are vids on YouTube about the confession of Chris Watts, and of Ted Bundy – which point out that their body language + their way of formulating their answers show that they are lying.)

        Do you have any ideas on what is happening there? How is it possible that their body ‘knows’ and shows that they are lying when they are not aware that they lie? How come that Chris Watts responds to the investigators in a way that typically proves that he is lying – while he doesn’t know that he is doing it?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You should not place any stock in lie detector tests or supposed body language experts with regard to spotting tells about lying.

      3. SMH says:

        It’s like a two year old being caught with his hand in the cookie jar.

    2. Getting There says:

      Congratulations on the change of name, Fuel Free on the Shelf! I am sorry for the pain you are feeling! It is hard, but you can get through it! I hope you continue to give yourself the love and care and patience needed to get through the emotional sea and be on the dry land.

    3. Gina says:

      When my nex knew I was about to leave he sat me and our 2 adult kids down and apologized for all of his lying. Only at this point I had worked him out and he knew it and he knew I was going to leave. As I listened to him I realized he wasn’t exactly saying what he was lying about, there were no specifics. It was just again another manipulation, this time more likely to get the kids pulled over to his side. He would also never admit to his true feelings, so if I would say why are you angry? It would always be I’m not angry. I don’t know if it’s like this with all mid rangers but nothing with him was ever direct. It helped me a lot to try and figure out how what he was doing was benefiting him. Things usually got more clear when I did that. Now that I’ve been No contact for about 6 months If he does something then I hear about it I just tell myself it’s because he’s a narcissist that’s why.

  8. SMH says:

    HG, If MRN said (only once) that he felt guilty because of IPPS, he was really saying he was afraid of the facade cracking?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Triangulation and likely pity play.

      1. SMH says:

        So the guilt comment was for fuel extraction. I get it. It was said during our only argument so that fits. I did pity him and was scared for myself, but pulled away to let him sort it out, so I guess he did not get as much fuel as he wanted.

        1. SMH,
          I have had a similar thing happen more times than I can keep track of. Guilt and shame and fear his wife would leave him, blah blah blahddy blahddy blah. I know I have said it before but they really are all in the same.

          1. SMH says:

            FOTS, Mine only mentioned it once because I think to him it was a weakness, so even if he had true feelings of guilt he wouldn’t have said anything. Also, his wife had already left him once a few years before we met (I think – not convinced of anything he told me but from what I could put together, that part was true) and he did not seem to be afraid that it would happen again. He simply kept everything very tightly compartmentalized.

            When we were speculating about an affair (several months after he told me about IPPS and after one of my multiple escapes) I said that he would feel guilty, he would take it out on me, and it would be a train wreck. I was right though I am not convinced that his guilt had anything to do with it!!

            How is it going with PB? I see you are free and I hope that means what I think it means!

          2. Fuel FREE on the Shelf says:

            “How is it going with PB? I see you are free and I hope that means what I think it means!”

            From now on can PB = Peanut Butter and not Piano Boy? LOL.

            But yes it means what you think it does. I miss him horribly and it hurts to breathe most days. I’ve even gone so far as to deactivate all of my social media so I do not feel compelled to check on him. I do not have the strength to block him. I know how I am and I know I will check, so I deactivated. I will eventually be back, no idea when. It’s definitely not easy “disconnecting” myself but it’s what I need right now. I still pop up here and there on this blog though. I need it now more than ever.

            I will spare the full story of what lead me to try and “detach” (for now) but will simply state that it’s been about about a month of silence, initiated by me. And it’s been complete and utter hell. But hey, I went about 5 months before, my all time record….maybe this time I can beat that and make it to forever.

          3. SMH says:

            FFOTS, I know the feeling of it hurting to breathe and I hope you can do it. Good for you for deactivating your social media.

            I still wonder what that attachment is all about (for me). For instance, a sudden yearning for MRN hit me tonight – I have this playlist that I put together during my time with him, though he never listened to music. It was calming when we were in the FR and at first I thought it must be making me miss him. But actually, I now think that it occasionally makes me anxious because it makes me FEEL like I am back with him. Weird, huh? As soon as I turned it off, I was better.

            Anyway, I am cheering you on! Tomorrow is another day. I hope you have some distractions.

          4. Fuel FREE from the Shelf says:

            Thank you SMH! I actually had several play lists with songs about our relationship. Last week I finally deleted them all. It wasn’t easy. And I still have them memorized unfortunately but hopefully in time I’ll forget. Hopefully. 😕 I’ll eventually be back on social media; but for now I don’t really want to feel compelled to check his fake phony bullshit life. I know I will, that’s why I deactivated everything for now. The struggle is real.

          5. Twilight says:


            You got this One step at a time.
            I am glad to see you moving forward.

        2. Sophia says:


          He got what he wanted. He got your pity and you left him alone so he wasn’t going to get wounded by being held accountable for anything. He was off to get fuel somewhere else. It’s sad and it’s hurtful. I’m sorry.

          1. SMH says:

            Hi Sophia,

            Thanks for your thoughts and support. The guilt part wasn’t really hurtful. I said, aha, well why didn’t you tell me that? It is something I had warned him about. It was more the distancing at that moment (he had distanced a million times before).

            We then had a big argument due to something he said. It turned out to be the beginning of a long and drawn out end but not because of the guilt, not because of the distancing and not because it was what he wanted. It was what I wanted.

            Had he felt actual guilt, I could understand that better than wanting pity fuel, which he only got a drop of because I fought back – probably my reaction to being scared at the cold fury I saw in him for the very first time (he apologized shortly after in a half-assed sort of way). This was our first and only major argument until post-escape. It scared the shit out of me but it also partly broke the spell.

            I think he was the ping-pong or anchor type that HG has written about, though he tended more towards ping pong and never cast me aside. When I made my final escape (6 months after that argument), I was hoovered in a big way with IPPS in situ. He wanted his ping pong table!!!

  9. E. B. says:

    Hello HG,
    Last Monday Ms. Bonchay sent an email about this year’s WNAAD Telesummit on June 1st. Have they already asked you to take part in it?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      No, they have not asked. If I recall correctly, they did not seek out the relevant participants until May in 2017 and April 2018.

      1. E. B. says:

        The ‘2019 Panel of Speakers’ has not been published on their site yet. They have not asked which guests we would like to hear.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Tudorites, you know what to do! Thank you EB.

          1. Wissh says:

            Actually, those of us following less than a year, do not know. Or maybe it’s just me. What should we do?

          2. E. B. says:

            Hi Wissh, I have just replied to Joanne on this same thread. I posted their email address and also a link to their web site to **Register** to get free access to the interviews.

          3. WhoCares says:

            I emailed WNAAD earlier today as well, with the hope that they extend you an invitation to participate this year. I’d love to hear you speak at the WNAAD summit again.
            I think it’s one of the best ways to introduce your work to new people who are affected by narcissistic abuse.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you. I received an e-mail yesterday asking me to participate as a speaker again.

          5. WhoCares says:


        2. NarcAngel says:

          I contacted WNAAD through their website to say that I had registered with anticipation of HG Tudor being on the panel. That I appreciate what the other participants have to offer, but that nothing to date has been as interesting and enlightening, while also being entertaining, as that of the works of HG Tudor. That if they really want people to understand narcissism, he is vital to the panel and their continuing success.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you NA, I appreciate that and you are of course correct.

          2. NarcAngel says:

            My pleasure and I know.

          3. kathy0720 says:

            Ever so humble!

          4. E. B. says:

            Hi NA,
            I was not able to register until today. As I noticed they did not publish the new panel of speakers, I decided to ask HG him first. I am going to email WNAAD too.
            I totally agree with you that he is vital to the panel. There is a lot of misinformation about narcissism. I believe that therapists, self-proclaimed experts and other professionals in the field will learn more from the horse’s mouth than from other people’s perceptions, which may not be correct.

    2. Joanne says:

      I was not aware of this event. I will write in and request that HG is featured on the agenda!

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Thank you for doing so.

        1. Twisted Heart says:

          I sent this last night and Bree just replied🤗

          Will HG Tudor be part of the panel this year? His insight on narcissistic abuse is parallel to none. It would be a disservice to all victims if he wasn’t a part of this major event. He has helped me and so many others find real healing from NA. His writing is brilliant and he is a great speaker. Having the perspective of a self aware narcissist helps you to understand the whole dynamic between narcissist and victim. All the pieces will finally click and you can move forward knowing it was never your fault and that the narcissist can never change. Please consider adding him to the program this year.

          Thanks for writing. I’m glad you have found his insights helpful. We have a lot of wonderful guests planned for this year and we hope H.G. will be one of them.

          Yayyyyyyy HG!!!
          Haha! I can’t believe I’m a Narcissist’s Fan Girl…actually yes I can.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you for writing in and yes, I have been asked to appear again.

          2. Twisted Heart says:

            Oh you have participated before? I was under the impression that they did not ask you. Oops that email might have been a little heavy handed then. Haha! Oh well. I’m glad they asked you again.

      2. E. B. says:

        To Joanne and everyone,

        WNAAD Telesummit/ Bree Bonchay, LCSW
        E-mail: infownaad at

        Register if you wish to have free access to the interviews. There is ‘Register’ button on “”

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you EB.

          1. E. B. says:

            My pleasure, HG.

        2. FYC says:

          E.B., Thank you for the name and email address.

          I sent an email explaining I just learned of WNAAD’s existence through and would like to know if HG Tudor will be a speaker this year. I further explained my opinion that HG has done more for victims of narcissistic abuse than any other source or years of therapy. I noted I would be interested in registering if HG is a speaker this year and would appreciate a confirmation of the same.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you FYC

          2. Twilight says:


            I believe when your readers send in their request to hear you this year it will be saying much after the BS trigger warning last year which IMO was due to those who are jealous and using “he is a narcissist” because they fear the truth your work actually brings to the masses.

          3. FYC says:

            You are most welcome, HG

          4. FYC says:


            I was unaware of this event last year, but a warning label is a mistake on their part. HG identifies himself clearly in everything I have seen or listened to. Adding a warning does not serve its intended purpose and is leading and likely to trigger defenses that would block the truth of what HG imparts. Every speaking engagement includes the participants credentials, so no disclaimer is needed. Perhaps you could enlighten them as former attendee?

          5. Twilight says:


            I made my thoughts clear last year.

            I believe it was done out of jealousy of others towards HG and how accurate his work and had no true bearing on his views needing a trigger warning before hand and to cover their tails from anyone making a stink. I don’t think Bree and at the moment I can not remember the other name idea yet others pushing for it. HG is accurate and i believe is taking from others work on the subject due to the way the message is being delivered.

        3. Joanne says:

          Thanks EB!

        4. Wissh says:

          Thank you EB
          I see HG has already been contacted. I just registered, thanks for your help.

    3. mommypino says:

      E.B. Thank you for the info. I will write a request as well.

  10. Whitney says:

    HG you said my ex is a LMR somatic Narc and I’m a Standard carrier/geyser empath but now I think he has Borderline personality disorder and I’m a narcissist 😖
    I have a lot of traits of a mid range Narc like I think I was a victim, I’m likeable, I think I’m empathetic.
    He said I have Borderline personality disorder so maybe that’s what he has.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      1. He is a narcissist.
      2. You are an empath – you do not have BPD.

      Feel free to consult if you have further questions/require additional reassurance. The doubt you are experiencing is as a consequence of emotional thinking impacting on your logic.

      1. Whitney says:

        Thank you so much HG. I think you are an empath when I interact with you.
        Thank you ava101 he did make me think there was plenty wrong with me. I’ll look up C-PTSD.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Well there’s some more emotional thinking there, Whitney!

          1. Whitney says:

            See how kind and helpful you are!

    2. ava101 says:

      Whitney, the hot and cold and the drama that follows some narcs’ behaviour can seem that way. But when he tells you that you have such a personality it’s deflection, and downputting, and manipulation. He has managed to confuse you and make you think something is wrong with you, hasn’t he … so, that is the way of a narc, not of someone with BPD.
      If (??) you have any kind of C-PTSD, after your relationship, some of the symptoms can appear similar to some of the symptoms of C-PTSD, but are not the same.

    3. Sarah says:

      Hi Whitney,

      I am sorry to hear of your self doubt and competing thoughts with regard to your personality traits.

      You most likely feel like a victim because you are. You have been involved with a narcissist who is trying to diagnose you with a Personality Disorder. Yikes!

      You will be doing just fine when he no longer has your ear. Right now you are in his sphere of control but don’t let that influence your feelings about yourself. Whatever you do, know that you are just fine as you are and it is the presence of the N making you question yourself.

      I hope you find freedom in your thoughts and from him very soon.


      1. Whitney says:

        Thank you Sarah reading that made me happy and hopeful 💖

      2. Whitney,
        You are not alone. My MRN used to diagnose me all the time. He acted like a therapist. He had me believing shit. Now apparently HE is the one who is in therapy. Lies lies lies. All of it.

    4. SMH says:


      My MRN said that my anxiety (which he caused) scared him and so made it sound like the reason things fell apart was because of me, though even after that comment he tried to get me back into the FR. They don’t care if there is something wrong with you anyway (which there isn’t).

      Post escape I told MRN that he had a personality disorder and he responded that everyone has a personality disorder (narc defense) and why should he want to be around someone who was mean to him. I had already left and was indeed being mean to him to the point of telling him that he was a psychopath for whom other people did not exist. This was prompted by a silent treatment following an inadvertent wounding.

      If you try to sort this all out, as I did over and over, even to the point of apologizing for something that I did because of something he did (etc), you will be caught up in the narc’s mental shenanigans and word salad, so let it go and you be the best judge. If you think you are a narc then you are not one.

      1. Whitney says:

        Hi SMH, do you know what type of empath you are?
        I was also anxious from my Narc abusing me so he said I was high strung, erratic, and gave him anxiety. Multiple people say I am calm and it confuses me, because he so often said I was anxious. He would shake his leg uncontrollably, scratch scabs on himself, and huff and puff.

        Another mid-range Narc who ensnared me also had anxiety, a nervous tick. I wonder if these nervous physical behaviours are common in midrange Narcs. Because they are holding so much rage under the surface.

        Thank you for sharing SMH you should so obviously stay away from him, so it reinforces that I need to stay away too.
        I also told him he’s psychopathic many times and he laughed about it. I told him he lacks empathy and he said yes many people have told me. Then I asked if he feels empathy for certain people and he said ‘it depends how useful they are to me’.

        1. Kelly says:

          Hi. Your comments ring true to the tune of my Narc and me. He says I’m too sensitive and everything is about me if I call him out on his silent treatment. I was away for a week and he was texting and calling and saying how much he missed me. When I came home he was sweet for 2 days and then back to his cold, silent bs. I care about him but I can’t sit in the silence. It makes me boil and I do react emotionally which I’m sure he LOVES although he says he hates it. I’ve always been, and people have always told me, I am a calm, cool, chill person. He tells me I’m weird and moody. Smh.

        2. SMH says:

          Hi Whitney,

          I don’t know because I’ve never had a consult about it. I like to think I am a Super Empath but I base that on HG’s posts about SEs and the fact that I had a supernova explosion, so I cannot say it is the case for sure. But what I will say is that before I was an SE, I was a co-dependent. I know HG says that the classifications don’t change, so I will say I FELT like a co-dependent and that is where the anxiety came from. I am not normally anxious and MRN even said at one point ‘I thought you were more secure,’ or something like that, and I said I AM and YOU ARE GOING TO PAY FOR MY THERAPY. lol.

          I think MRN had a lot of anxiety (and rage, as you say) beneath his very calm exterior, but it only ever showed occasionally. Maybe he was unloading his insecurities and anxieties onto me and maybe yours is doing the same to you.

          Mine never said he lacked empathy but I never asked him. He did say all the time that he didn’t understand other people’s emotions and that he had very few himself. He did get angry when I told him he was a psychopath (well, I did that over email) and defensive when I told him he had a personality disorder (done in person).

          You do need to stay away – no easy task. I am 10 months NC now (almost 11, actually). I am occasionally tempted to break NC but my ET is under much better control than it was when I found this site after I escaped but before I went NC.

          Are you still ensnared?

        3. ava101 says:

          “scared of your anxiety” that’s a good one … Invalidation.
          Interesting with the leg shaking, my Most recent ex narc-in-my-life also did that. He Takes meds for anxiety. Said He was scared of me. Because of unpredictability.
          Etc, the Word salad and turning everything around went further.
          I’ve Heard that with BPD before (that I Had it), luckily in a pretty dumb way, but yes, it makes you doubt yourself, deflects and makes you the guilty one.

    5. nunya biz says:

      I just love this blog : )

    6. Korova says:

      Please Whitney, do not doubt in yourself and do not listen a narcissist when he tells you what you are (HG is the exception ofc). The “BPD accusation” is a typical mid ranger’s trick when he feels you question his behaviour, demand answears, resist manipulation. For my M-R I used to be a person with BPD and sometines a sociopath. Pure projection to make you blame yourself and hide his faults. Do not listen to him, do not believe anything he tells you, these are all lies, a manipulation and the abuse that can lead to PTSD.

      Narcissist are like mythological sirens – dangerous creatures, who lure nearby sailors with their enchanting music and singing voices to shipwreck on the rocky coast of their island. DO NOT LISTEN TO THEM.

      1. Ema says:

        My MRN also made me believe I was mental and need professional help. At some point in our relationship I was indeed going insane, suicidal and I started therapy. The first time I went to my therapist I told her I have BPD and it ruins my relationship, but later on she concluded that I do not have BPD and that there is something really wrong with my partner and he needs help more than I do. She even said once that he was a sadist.
        By the way, it is very interesting that since I started therapy, our relationship got worse, because my therapist taught me how not to overreact to his absurd behavior and I believe it was driving him mad that I almost stopped providing fuel and his provocations and manipulations did not work to the same extent as before.

        1. WhoCares says:


          “At some point in our relationship I was indeed going insane, suicidal and I started therapy.”

          I’m sorry he drove you to that point during the relationship but glad that your therapist was able to help you manage your response to his behaviours.

          “I believe it was driving him mad that I almost stopped providing fuel and his provocations and manipulations did not work to the same extent as before.”

          I experienced something similar; I was no longer responding the same way to my narcissist and it brought out the ‘extra crazy’ in him in effort to try to provoke a response…it also helped to expose him to others because he was losing control of the mask.

          It especially helped me to see him for what he was (and that I was not the one who was losing my mind; despite feeling that way) and I secretly prepare to leave.

        2. Tappi Tikarrass says:

          Good to know that you have a decent therapist Ema. Unfortunately they’re few and far between.

          It took me a while, but I found a good one eventually. The medical profession attracts its fair share of narcissists due to the prestige and income potential of the profession.

          1. Lou says:

            TT, I don’t know if they are all narcs, but I agree with you that the medical professions attract people who are after the high income and prestige. They are often people with no vocation and therefore mediocre professionals.

        3. ava101 says:

          Wow, ema, how good to hear that there are therapists Out there who know what they are doing!

          1. Ema says:

            Yes, indeed. My therapist told me my ex is a narcissist, before I found this blog.
            She also foresaw many of his actions after we split. The hoovers, the pity parties, the aggression…
            I’ve spoken to her many times about this blog, but unfortunately she doesn’t have enough free time to check out some of HG’s materials.
            I can honestly admit that this blog and my therapist saved my life. I remember when I first came here and started reading, I was at the lowest point of my life, and all the encouraging posts how with time you will feel better, and the devastating emotions will abate, seemed so unreachable and I couldn’t even imagine that one day I will wake up and it will not hurt like HELL and that some days I will even feel happy!
            It gets better, it really does!

        4. Korova says:

          I understand you perfectly. It sounds so MRN. How did it end? Did you escape or did he discard because of low fuel?

          1. Ema says:

            I escaped, but now it’s hoover time for him and 8 months later, he tried to suck me back in. Didn’t succeed, fortunately 🙂

          2. SMH says:

            Sounds like what mine did Ema. I escaped, six months later he tried to suck me back in, he wasn’t successful and then he tried for the next few months to ‘flip the script,’ as I put it to him and try to regain control. I should have been NC at that point but I let him ignore my still wobbly boundaries (and hadn’t yet found this site). In the end he succeeded not in getting me back into the FR but in getting tons of negative fuel from me and that was the most hellish part of our relationship. Don’t do what I did and try to be ‘friends’ with him!

    7. Twisted Heart says:

      I’m contemplating doing the narc detector. There’s no doubt that he is a narc but is there any value in knowing what kind he is besides just curiousity?

      Does it help in the healing process? I think it might because I spend a lot of time trying to prove to myself that he knows what he’s doing therefore he stays in my mind a lot. Or is it even worth knowing? I might benefit more from the one on one consultation but I want to save that for more desperate times. Also if we do the consultation one day, HG would have a better understanding of this specific dynamic.

      Empaths, has knowing what type of N you are dealing with helped you overcome it anyway?

      HG, does the narc detector detect psychopathy?is there a difference? Can all schools of narcs be psychopaths? In my twisted way of thinking, it would be “ok” if he was a narcissist because that is a defence mechanism but a psychopath is just born that way, no?

      1. HG Tudor says:

        The Narc Detector consultation will address your questions posed in your comment and arms you with information which you can link with further information in articles, books and additional consultations so you know what to expect from the narcissist to establish and maintain your no contact regime and also the acquisition of knowledge and understanding is crucial in not only achieving recovery but expediting it.

      2. Whitney says:

        Hi Twisted Heart, the Narc Detector was the best thing I have ever done. It cleared my confusions after 2 years of being abused. It absolutely helps in the healing process. It is extremely validating, especially if you suffer from confusion or emotional thinking. It is very specific and insightful and it details all specific manipulation tactics and exactly why the person is a narcissist, using specific evidence. I thought it was cheap for how specific, detailed, and lengthy it is, and because it was worth my life!

        After you get the Narc detector you should get the Empath detector and start focusing on your special and wonderful qualities and why you were targeted by a narcissist. The Empath detector helps turn something terrible into a positive journey of discovering yourself 🙂

        1. Twisted Heart says:

          Thank you Whitney,
          I actually started with the Empath Detector. Once I understood my own empathic traits I could see what was driving my emotional thinking. Now I am just waiting for The Narc Detector so i will be able to put all the pieces together very soon.
          I can’t wait for this to be a distant memory.

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