Your Selfish Point of View

YOUR SELFISH POINT OF VIEW

 

One of the most powerful (from my perspective) and troubling (from your perspective) is the fact that my kind and me appear to act without any regard to logic. We appear to delight in ensnaring people by pretending to be something that we are not even though it seems completely genuine. We cause people to fall completely in love with us and then apparently turn on them, lashing out at them and hurting them. Indeed, we seem to delight in causing pain and chaos to everyone around us and we show no concern at such conduct. We behave in such a hypocritical fashion, chastising you for doing something and then doing the very same thing ourselves. We say one thing and do so with utter conviction and then in the next breath say something completely contradictory yet seem not to realise what we just done.

We act with impunity, taking at will and with no concern for what anybody else may suffer as a consequence of our actions. The list is long and worrisome. Trying to fathom out why we behave in this manner leaves you bewildered, exhausted, defeated and broken. This is all of course intentional. We behave in this manner in order to wear you down, provoke reactions from you and most of all so that you provide us with our precious fuel. Our apparent disregard for logic and reason causes massive consternation to you and your kind. This is because you are ruled by order and the need to understand. It is woven into your DNA and anything which deviates from this creates a significant problem for you.

Our behaviour makes no sense to you for one simple reasons. You are looking at the way we behave through your world view. You are imposing your values and your outlook on what we do. Why should it be the case that your world view should be regarded as the only one? Why should the way you look at the world be considered as the correct way of doing so? When did you become the arbiter of all? This is the high-handed arrogance which proves the undoing of your kind. Oh you will wail to anyone who will listen at how monstrous you have been treated, how we are evil people and the spawn of Satan. You sit in so-called support forums on the internet decrying our behaviour, writing page after page about what has happened to you and how horrendous you have been treated. All about you isn’t it? Oh I can hear your howls of protest now, at how you are a good person and that you do not hurt anyone. Do you not? How then is it that you injure me with your failure to behave consistently. You call me for it yet you are just as guilty if in fact not more so. You promise me so much at the outset and then you change the way that you behave so you do not give me what you once did. I do not change. I shine and dazzle and soar, but you make it all change, why do you do it? This failure hurts me as you reduce my fuel and force me to punish you for it. You force me to seek it from other sources when I would much rather keep obtaining it from you. You call into question my abilities and criticise me notwithstanding just how that behaviour wounds me. You hold yourself our as caring and considerate yet you do me these injustices. You hide behind your mask of empathy, telling the world you are the good person, the caring person and the one that looks our others yet this is just a ruse in order to wound me and my kind after everything we have done.

Perhaps if you stopped looking at the world from your own perspective and looked at it from mine you would start to understand. You talk so often about showing compassion and your ability to put yourself in the place of other people. Why do you not do this with me? You tell me you love me. I read about how many of you declare you loved my kind and me in a way that went beyond anything you had shown before. Sometimes I wonder. If you loved us in the way you say that you do, then why can you not put yourself in our shoes and then understand what it is we have to deal with. If you did this, you would start to see that our behaviour is completely understandable. It makes absolute sense when viewed from our perspective and not yours. I see no reason why you should not try this and then you will have gained considerable insight into why we behave as we do and then, should you still deem what we do as unacceptable then you can at least understand it and take evasive action can’t you? You will not have to decry us to all who will listen whilst and I think it is only right that I make this point, you are not helping yourself by wallowing in this moaning and self-pity and surrounding yourself with others who behave in a similar fashion. Providing blow by blow accounts of what we do in order to elicit sympathy but then asking why does he do this and why does he do that, is not getting you the answer because you are asking the wrong people. Ask me instead and I will tell you; view the world through our eyes and everything will make sense. It all comes down to one small word; fuel. That is why we act as we do. That is why we do the things we do and say the things we say and once you comprehend that it is all about fuel you will be looking at the world through our eyes and finally it will all make sense. Go on try it. I dare you or would you rather sit and milk sympathy and never move forward? Don’t say I never gave you the chance.

 

 

79 thoughts on “Your Selfish Point of View

  1. WhoCares says:

    Ooh; exciting!! 😀

  2. WhoCares says:

    Sarah,

    I enjoyed your observations and questions.

    I love your suggestion below – and I have similarly wondered if, similar, to the Letter to the Narcissist series it would be helpful (in effort to educate others) to share an empath’s narrative before AND after finding HG’s work – or an empath version of his/her story and then a reinterpretation by HG. A bigger project indeed, then the Letter to the Narcissist series (you were planning a book answering the letters – yes, HG?).

    “I would love to see empath narratives recorded more formally on your blog HG. Have you ever considered the possibility of working with your long-standing readers and contributors to tell their stories and detail the impact your work has had on their recovery process? These stories have such universal appeal, they are intriguing, often salacious and undeniably impactful.”

    HG,

    “3. I have a half completed book which addresses how people became freed from narcissists through my work, although I may revisit this as a project and make some alterations based on your suggestion and also new matters which have come to my attention through the passage of time.”

    HG – Given the project you mention above – are these kinds of suggestions something you are interested in? I just think that, like Sarah, some stories have a lot of impact and if shared from beginning to end (romantic entanglement specifically & with identity protected) and re-written with illumations from you – people would better grasp how narcissistic entanglement happens so gradually over time.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I am working on expanding the concept, WhoCares I will be posting something presently.

    2. Sarah says:

      Thank you for your comment Who Cares; it is great when we feed off each other’s passion for something that has impacted our lives so significantly.

      HG’s comments about the Mass Media are really pertinent. I have noted how attuned and exceptional he is in the radio setting – quick on his feet, with a great sense of humour. I have only recently discovered ‘Thank Tudor It’s Friday’ – this would be a brilliant regular radio segment in Australia. I think the mainstream audience would be addicted here!

      The empathic perspective and success stories would be invaluable to people who have only recently exited a toxic relationship with an N. Consuming oneself in stories of growth and realisation is a healthy past time when it is your end goal also. The list of possibilities is endless – it is time for all of us to make some noise!!

      Sarah

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Thank you Sarah. I have your email also, thank you. I shall be replying to you presently.

        1. Sarah says:

          Excellent and thank you HG. I am lucky enough to be unwell; great when you are a parent and your husband is also home for Anzac Day because there is ample time for other pursuits such as promoting the work of HG Tudor.

  3. Angie says:

    True that individuals who have been with Narcissists naturally decry the narcissistic behaviors and actions and words, but a lot of people at the same time don’t partake in wanting others to understand something which inevitably cannot be really understood. Narcissists seek validation in every way, shape , and form not always with our kind. I would just be oozing love to understand the toxic logic and the narcissistic perspective, but I unfortunately or rather fortunately, can’t get my head that far up by arse,,,it’s insanity,,and anybody who feels or desires to understand such odious , reprehensible, illogically senseless and a self destructive mindset of that of a narcissist to garner fuel, would be a complete waste of time. not so much as the empathic perspective VS the Narcissistic perspective but more to the point logical VS Illogical Perspective. Clarity of healthy mindsets is always the more preferable from our perspective,,we love to understand the world we live in and have it make sense to us. I abhor and repudiate anything or anyone that is not sound of mind. Why be any different, but you learn from it and grow from it.

    1. Steve Foo says:

      Well stated Angie, my thoughts exactly.

  4. mommypino says:

    Excellent article. It describes really well my experience in reading your work. It’s not that I haven’t tried to put myself in their (the narcissists’) shoes, I have done that so many times. It was actually a big reason why my entanglement with them lasted for that long and why I have given so much and endured so much bad treatment from them, because I thought that I was putting myself in their shoes. But I was reading them with my perspective and my reality. I could not even fathom a narcissistic perspective where when I explain to them in detail why their actions were hurtful, they feel no remorse or sympathy for me. Their lack of that was puzzling and frustrating and I try to understand them by thinking what circumstances would I behave that way? And I just could never figure it out. Thank you for the lens that your work has provided. So now I just accept them for what they are. I just stay away when I see red flags. Acceptance for our differences help me have closure. It is different from forgiveness which they never asked for and harder to give. For them acceptance works perfectly fine.

    1. Maddox says:

      Hi mp. I wanted to comment on an what you say here and answer something you asked me in another thread. When i 1st read this post I didn’t have kind thoughts. I felt like Mr. Tudor was being glib and messing with the empaths head. But after sitting and carefully considering his words. I reflected on acceptance as you say but also the mask we empaths may wear. The mask where we feel sorry for ourselves and get drug down by that. We seek validation here but he also points out we give blow by blows and maybe enjoy the attention. I can’t say i enjoy it not it’s nice to know others feel the way i do. I think he’s saying shit or get off the pot. Lol crude. Apologies. I am going to quit feeling sorry for myself. I’m sick of it. I want to be happy.
      You asked if i was an only child. Indeed yes i was my mother’s only.

      1. mommypino says:

        Hi Maddox,

        I am an only child of my mom too and I have three half siblings from my dad but I didn’t grow up with them.

        HG does have a style of writing that can be provocative (I noticed) to some readers. He is giving an accurate depiction of the mindset of a narcissist and that mindset is so different from ours, it’s a very conceited, entitled, selfish mindset with no sympathy or guilt and that is the mindset of the narcissists that we had in our lives. He is unmasking all of them to us with his writings. You will notice also in some of his articles the differences in the mindsets of the Lessers, Mid-Range and Greaters which helped me understand why my matrinarc (a Lesser) reacted or acted differently than my half sister (a Mid-Ranger). They both act on instincts but my half-sister has much better cognitive abilities and thus behaved differently than my mom. I have read that the prefrontal cortex part of the brain helps control our temper. For the most part, that part of the brain is malleable and can be improved. The Lessers like my mom doesn’t have a very good or effective function in that part of the brain so she is not able to hide or control her fury while my half-sister being smart does have a better functioning in her prefrontal cortex and this she is not eruptive with her fury and often just resorted to silent treatments, veiled insults and triangulation.
        The more we understand their real mindsets, the more we are able to tone down our emotional thinking which sabotages our ability to stay away from narcissists.

        1. K says:

          Exactly, mommypino.

        2. Maddox says:

          Thank you well said. I had to duck when i disagreed with hg’s point of view and was honest in telling him i am suspicious of any narc. I will always question but i think it’s important that we do. Reclaim our voice so to speak. I’ve noticed with my narc and I see Mr. t
          Tudor speak of it, that nothing is every moderate or in the middle. For example as i pointed out when others came to Mr. Tudors defence, just because i don’t agree with one thing he says doesn’t mean i feel that way about all his views. I’m allowed to disagree. I appreciate your kind explanation on your view of this post. It alleviated some of my anxiety. I’m currently living thru my partner pushing his false reality on me insisting i accept it. This had that feel to it. I am very direct and not always tactful. I’m angry. It probably shows. As it stands i respect Mr Tudor and have and will continue recommend him. Thank you again for being a kind voice when i needed one.
          M

          1. mommypino says:

            You’re very welcome Maddox! I think this is the only place where a narc allows us to vent our spleen and disagree with him. I have seen a lot of passionate disagreements here and I was even part of some. I have never seen HG Tudor issue and ad hominem attack against anyone who disagrees with him but I have seen him debate with them on issues. We are always welcome here to disagree as long as we don’t call each other names or go below the belt. We all have different communication styles and they are all welcome here. I’m looking forward to seeing more posts from you. I’m so happy that I made you feel better somehow. And it is ok to be angry after all that you have gone through. It is a normal human emotion. 💕💕

  5. evilmuskhat says:

    HG, in all honesty, do you accept that one who is content with oneself, accepts what they themselves are and doesn’t need validation from the emotional responses of others, is in fact a stronger being than any narcissist?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Not necessarily. Some people have low standards of contentment for themselves, fine for them, but that is not indicative in itself of being stronger than a narcissist.

    2. Narc noob says:

      I think I see where you are going and I would agree.

      For a N though I would think that control over contentment would be their measuring tool for what is considered a “stronger” being.

  6. Lou says:

    I like the image you chose for this post.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you.

  7. Sarah says:

    Your lens has become our shield HG.

    I have spent much time pondering the narcissistic perspective as a result of your insights. I can see that it makes so much sense and is extremely effective in the modern world. Our innovation and technologies are all about conserving energy. There is a focus on creating celebrity in the absence of real talent. There is shameless self promotion, exploitation and a lack of self respect and boundaries broadcasted far and wide on our airwaves and television sets everyday. There are rewards for narcissistic behaviour everywhere you turn – attention (fuel) is the natural consequence of these behaviours, so far as I can see.

    I would argue that an understanding of the narcissistic perspective should be universal in today’s society. Narcissism has become a public health issue and an epidemic. You are a leader in the early intervention and prevention of this type of harm within our community. Narcissism is root cause of so many issues, substance use, family violence, mental health, criminal activity, bullying – the list goes on.

    Do you think that a government investment in research addressing the early identification of traits and behaviours in children and adolescents may be an effective means of tackling narcissism? What investment (if any) should we make in addressing this issue on a larger scale?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Yours is a very sensible proposal because as you identify it is our behaviours which are the root of many of the problems you detail.

      However, it is not about identifying the traits in children because
      1. That would be very difficult to do; and
      2. In many instances, would be pointless because
      a. The traits may be narcissistic but not narcissism and therefore there might be some form of unnecessary intervention (leaving aside how on earth that is applied – it is not like taking pills for instance) ; or
      b. The narcissist has already been formed and therefore it is too late.

      Energies would be better spent on enabling normal and healthy people to recognise our kind at an early juncture, protect themselves and stay away from our kind. The lack of understanding (and extent of misunderstanding) remains huge and that is why I urge so many readers to use their good offices to share my work and also to push it with regard to other channels of mass media.

      1. Better Call HG says:

        HG, one of my struggles in spreading your works is that from my experience normal people simply don’t get it. I know the fact that I am no where near as an effective communicator as you hurts my ability to spread the message, but I think normal people just assume that narcissism is someone who has a large ego. Concepts such as fuel, fury, smearing, triangulation, etc. are lost on them.

        Thanks to your works, I’ve been able to recognize so many narcissistic traits among former acquaintances or when people are chatting about how so and so’s significant other is doing x, y, and z, but I can’t get people to recognize that as part of the narcissistic dynamic. Normal people might recognize a behavior as odd, but they explain it away (I’ve heard the excuse that someone must be bipolar on multiple occasions) or they give the narc a benefit of the doubt (oh, they just don’t know what they want).

        I will keep trying, but you’re the best hope we have to spread knowledge and awareness.

      2. Sarah says:

        HG you make a most helpful distinction between narcissistic traits and NPD. Thank you for your thoughts on early intervention with children and also the barriers for us to overcome re: the misunderstandings and ignorance with regard to narcissism in general. There is a formidable task at hand for those of us who believe in the importance of this.

        I cannot discount the usefulness of all people developing some narcissistic traits, particularly when building a career or working to influence others. On a personal level, I am grateful I have a balance of both empathic and narcissistic traits as it provides relational flexibility and versatility.

        Do you think it is primarily the success that many people have within the realm of narcissism that makes it so difficult for normals without relevant experience to understand the disorder? I question whether if we are to appeal to the mainstream audience and attract the attention of the masses, perhaps we need to advocate for a narrative in film from both the narcissistic and victim perspective? I am sure Louis Theroux could make it credible from a public health perspective. I think I have my next project to write to him with this.

        I would love to see empath narratives recorded more formally on your blog HG. Have you ever considered the possibility of working with your long-standing readers and contributors to tell their stories and detail the impact your work has had on their recovery process? These stories have such universal appeal, they are intriguing, often salacious and undeniably impactful.

        I am an ambassador for your work and share it often and wherever necessary. I believe the amount of advice and intelligence you willingly provide to us pro-bono is phenomenal.

        With thanks,
        Sarah

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Hello Sarah,

          Thank you for taking the time to provide your constructive and thoughtful observations and suggestions.

          1. Why do normal/empaths struggle to understand NPD?

          a. Their own perspective is so different from ours, they do not realise this (lack of access to the right information), it is a hard concept to grasp for some (in itself AND owing to the fact that ET does not want people to understand and apply the knowledge).

          b. The impact of ET overall is designed to prevent not only understanding but to prevent its application;

          c. So much of the behaviour becomes ‘normalised’ by society and those who fail to identify what it actually is AND the use of euphemistic relationship jargon which muddies the waters (to our benefit of course).

          2. Thank you for being an ambassador for my work. That is appreciated and is hugely important. The more people place constructive reviews from my work, share my work and engage with other platforms in the media to spread knowledge of my work, the more that will be achieved. I am an Army of One and therefore my readers, viewers and clients are hugely important in building and spreading that knowledge (which also, incidentally, is why I do not manipulate my readers, viewers and clients – it would be foolish to do so).

          3. I have a half completed book which addresses how people became freed from narcissists through my work, although I may revisit this as a project and make some alterations based on your suggestion and also new matters which have come to my attention through the passage of time.

          1. PR says:

            HG, how much focused publicity do you ultimately seek in this area (given your desire to remain anonymous)? What is your end goal? Where would you like to be ‘seen’ and heard? What are your aspirations in expanding your reach? What elements of effectiveness do you desire (reach, frequency, authority, saturation, etc,)? How far are you willing to take your platform and expert status? Your answers will help us help you.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            As much as possible to spread my work and its effect.
            To be the number one resource for this information.
            Everywhere that I am needed, especially in the arena of supposed relationship advice – mainstream media needs to know about my work, the charlatans who give out dangerous and ineffective relationship advice on chat shows, in magazines, online etc need to be toppled and replaced.
            I will take it wide, far and deep and can do so considerably whilst maintaining anonymity. As this reach extends there will come a point where I will consider the removal of anonymity to achieve more, but the first stages need to be accomplished on this march to global domination and saturation.

          3. Sarah says:

            HG, thank you for your very considered response to my comment.

            The evidence base with regard to the positive impact of your education on others is substantial. Your effort and level of engagement on the blog exceeds all expectations (I am a person with high expectations). I am very excited to read your aforementioned book and tender your success in Australia.

            Excellent point for all readers with regard to engagement with mass media to promote your work. I think there is a huge market for your approach in Australia – we are largely uneducated re: NPD here.

            You are indeed a very efficient Army of One; however the work also sits with us – as someone who you have helped immeasurably, I have a debt to repay to you also.

            Sarah

          4. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you. It is massively important for people to act as ambassadors for my work for a multitude of reasons and I do appreciate people advocating my work to others and seeking to have it aired through mainstream media also.

        2. NarcAngel says:

          Sarah

          Great comment and question.

  8. Evelyn Baker says:

    My mother is not the author of my life…anymore.

    1. WhoCares says:

      Evelyn,

      Rewriting your own story is lovely, isn’t?

  9. Bekah B says:

    My mid-range narc never expressed [to me anyway] that my point of view was selfish–only that it was hard to wrap his own mind around.. However, on multiple occasions, he did give me the opportunity to hear him out about how he operated, as it concerned multiple sources of fuel.. At the end of his spiels, I would tell him that I understood what he was saying and how he could operate as he does.. But then he would say something along the lines of: “if you really understood, you wouldn’t complain (or get jealous) when you see how I operate in action”.. Although I was given the insight by him and expressed to him that I truly did understand, even without his explanation, he would put me and all of my open-mindedness down.. He always had to play himself out to be a “victim”, “misunderstood”, or having something done towards him out of malice, when that never was the case.. Smh and tsk tsk..

  10. Steve Foo says:

    A PoMo narc hey? Ha, ha, hilarious! Your unsubtle urges are simply the result of a neglected upbringing, and as sad as that is (for you), you ultimately will be treated by the people you let down in exactly the same way as you have treated them. If only you had the brain plasticity to learn lessons from your therapists, you may have gotten to experience the full gamut of emotions the world had to offer. Instead you rail against the world like a screaming baby. So go ahead, blame mummy.

    1. FYC says:

      Hey Steve, Where is the evidence of the lack of brain plasticity? I believe this post is demonstrating a provocative defense of a narcissist’s choice, not a normal’s or empath’s choice. Narcissism is not a matter of intellect or plasticity. It is matter of the cause and effect of abuse on the developing mind of a human resulting in the creation of a defense mechanism for survival. Apply compassion. We empaths are not the only ones who suffered from narcissistic abuse–oddly enough, the narcissist did also. It is sadly a generational effect.

      I loathe abuse of any kind. I do not understand it and do not condone it. Research shows egoism is not at the core of narcissism; it is only part of the narcissistic construct born out of abuse and trauma as a defense mechanism. If that were not the case, it would be difficult, if not impossible to approach understanding.

      Seems to me with education and enlightenment, one can have compassion for the narcissist while steering clear to avoid any fallout. We can also benefit from knowing how crucial it is to offer proper attunement and healthy love to a developing child, especially from years 0-10. If a curriculum were developed for teaching in school and broadly disseminated, imagine what that level of awareness could do? HG’s works give us both education and enlightenment and the tools to avoid narcissistic abuse. Look past the bravado. There is plenty of good to learn here.

      1. Steve Foo says:

        Hey FYC,

        You’re right, and I immediately felt bad after venting my spleen here. You may have noticed I was using a little of HG’s own advice against himself (ha, ha etc). And I honestly thought he probably wouldn’t post the comment (you surprised me there HG). What I was trying to point out, and yes angrily, is that I think he was using sophistry by appealing to our (in his eyes) over developed sense of fairness. In the same way as postmodernists claim there are many valid truths, and certain presidents make claims that there are many fine people amongst a clan of white supremacists, I wanted to make a clear statement that no, narcissists are not simply another personality type that we as a society should tolerate and accept. That they don’t deserve to be given the “everyone to their own” or “fair and balanced treatment” that empaths can be so easily manipulated by. Yes we can understand the world from their viewpoint, and HG has been very helpful here. But never forget he is NPD and he has got his own selfish NPD reasons for doing it. So, just because we understand their point of view, doesn’t mean we accept it. The truth of the matter is that the NPD viewpoint is irrational, damaging to society, abusive to individuals, and the more people that understand it the better.

        The lack of brain plasticity comment was a dig at HG, challenging him to develop the neural circuits the rest of us have, that he was denied by an abusive mother. That is to emphasise the fact that we’ve got something that he hasn’t and he is missing out on some good stuff. You have to know that NPDs are currently unable to change. It’s not a mental illness. You may also have read that in recent years science has made advances in bringing back brain functionality that had previously been though of as permanently lost, or underdeveloped. Read “The Brain that Changes Itself” by Norman Doidge. It’s here that I think we could eventually find the key that could allow NPDs back into the rational world. No more word salad, gaslighting, pathological lying, instead real “love”. It simply seems sad to write them off as social parasites to be avoided.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I have never said that people have to accept our kind, but you need to understand why we act as we do in order to achieve your own freedom.

          1. Chihuahuamum says:

            I was just talking about this with a friend. I think acceptance is freedom. Accepting there are narcs and npd is on the rise is a reality. You dont have to accept staying with one but you should accept that theyre out there and more than likely you will work with one or several. Thats where learning about npd is imperitive to survival out there. Playing the game but trying to hold onto your morals and integrity. What i mean by playing the game is knowjng how to talk to a narc and protect yourself around a narc the best you can. Not going in circles trying to figure out everything they do but understanding its bc of npd.
            I work with one and i accept i have to try and coexist with them. They think i believe in their facade and think theyre great but i know exactly what they are. I dont get angry or upset bc i realise they have a personality disorder and i have no control over their perspective and try to do my own thing. Its not easy but knowledge is power and so is acceptance. Npd is on the rise and i really see empaths as minoroties so we have to accept and arm ourselves.

        2. FYC says:

          Hey Steve, I feel for your frustration. Your angry emotions are clear. Unfortunately, your anger is skewing your logic and leading you to put forward a tenuous premise and reach a faulty conclusion. (As an aside, are you aware anger is the ego’s attempt at regaining a sense of control?)

          I have never seen HG describe ‘our’ sense of fairness as over developed. Further, I have never seen him attempt to play on that sense of fairness. If I had, I would call him on it as I have called you to consider a more logical argument.

          You claim empaths are so easily manipulated by a ‘fair and balanced approach’. Where is the evidence of this? Have you considered that at least some empaths were fully cognizant that their narcissist’s behavior was not healthy or in alignment with their own (to say the least), but believed that their love or logic could heal or help the narcissist to come around to a different way of thinking and being? I am one of those empaths. I have familial narcissists. I have tried to love, heal and logically change their experience so that they can know unconditional love and be free of fear and the need for absolute control. I failed. Yet I still have unconditional love and compassion for them. I also limit my exposure to them. I have also been romantically entangled with narcissists (before I knew what they were) and suffered from the experience. Yet even after experiencing that, I still have compassion for them. I do not accept or condone their behavior nor want them in my life, but I wish them well.

          I am curious, Steve, who would be qualified to be the grand arbiter of who deserves a fair and balanced treatment and who does not?Are you aware all humans have narcissistic traits? Do you know the difference between a narcissist and a sociopath or psychopath? Do you understand the origins of psychological defenses? I’m guessing you do not fully. Along the same lines, who determines when a person or group is a social parasite? I’m pretty sure politicians from both sides of the isle are doing exactly as you suggest, and how does this move us forward in any productive way? I would suggest the need to dismiss others as unworthy of understanding or compassion is highly narcissistic need.

          While I share in your fascination of relatively new areas of brain research and neural plasticity, I do not share your inference that narcissists lack what ‘we’ have. Research has shown that this is not the case. While fMRI scans show that sociopaths brains are stimulated differently than the brains of normal individuals, I have not seen any research that states their neural network is physically different. Please direct me to such a study if it exists. Along your argument lines, it would follow that neurons were depleted in statistically significant numbers due to the abuse/trauma a narcissist experienced during his/her developmental years. Yet current research shows that no such difference exists (as was inaccurately assumed in the late 90’s). Further, I am unaware of research that posits new neural networks can effectively change a person’s personality and psychological defenses. Again, please direct me to any research that does so; I would be very interested in this. (If you are interested in a scientific meta analysis of the last 40 years of research on brain plasticity, you may enjoy this: “Adult Neuroplasticity: More Than 40 Years of Research” by Eberhard Fuchs and Gabriele Flügge.)

          Steve, I am no expert on any of these topics. But I love to learn and acquire knowledge and I try to do so without bias. I believe knowledge and understanding lead to enlightenment. Enlightenment leads to greater choices for effectively addressing positive growth and change. I am very grateful for HG’s truth imparted. I thrive on understanding.

          In summation, narcissists are not a personality type full stop. Narcissists are humans and should be treated as such.

          “Wisdom, compassion, and courage are the three universally recognized moral qualities of men.”–Confucius

  11. K says:

    It makes complete sense to me.

    1. WiserNow says:

      K,

      It only makes sense to me if I think of narcissists as mentally disordered people who are trapped in a loop of unhealthy and destructive, but self-serving power-seeking.

      Otherwise, their behaviour doesn’t make sense at all. The problem is they appear to be “normal”, even intelligent and capable, until you really get to know them. Their “disorder” isn’t easily detectable and they know how to blend in with healthy people very well, so that it becomes very difficult to differentiate who is normal and who is the narcissist.

      When I read this article, I initially thought it sounded like HG was projecting. Projecting is another weapon in a narc’s toolbox. He’s saying that empathic people have “high-handed arrogance” and that “I shine and dazzle and soar, but you make it all change”. Really?! Who makes it all change? From what I’ve experienced, the narcs are consistently arrogant and they are the ones who need to be contradictory for the contrast in fuel.

      I think back to the relationships I had with narcissists and the relationships couldn’t flourish or progress in a healthy way even when I tried in every possible way to “understand” the narcissist.

      If they seek sympathy and you give them genuine sympathy, they use that to gain power over you and then see you as easier to manipulate. If they ask you to help them in any way and you do help them because you care about them, they will exploit your good intentions and will not reciprocate. If you give them the love they seem to need, your “fuel” becomes stale and you are devalued and discarded.

      In “real life” none of it makes sense to a normal and healthy person, because ultimately, it doesn’t make sense.

      1. K says:

        WiserNow
        If you look at it from the narcissistic perspective, it makes perfect sense. They have a different way of looking at relationships than we do and their idea of a healthy relationship is categorically different than our idea of a healthy relationship.

        Before you found narcsite, there was no way you could possibly ever “understand” your narcissists so your relationships couldn’t progress or flourish in a healthy way (for you), however, from the narcissistic POV, your confusion, upset, frustration and efforts to “understand”, stay in situ and work things out were all fuel so it worked for the narcissist. It really is a clash of personalities.

        The empath thinks: the N is wrong, pathetic, weak, abusive, a user and a loser. I am the victim in all this; he is the aggressor.

        The narcissist thinks: the E is wrong, pathetic, weak, abusive, a user and a loser. I am the victim in all this; she is the aggressor.

        They are wired to be contradictory and hypocritical, gaslight, project, dupe, exploit, future fake, cheat, manipulate and lie because they need fuel and they need it regularly.

        It is imperative that they blend in (facade) that is how they get what they need (fuel) to survive. That is all instinct and they are completely unaware that they are doing it.

        The self-defence mechanism is brilliant if you think about it.

        1. WiserNow says:

          K,

          I can see what you’re saying and I understand your point of view, however, I still disagree. I don’t believe their self-defence mechanism is brilliant, especially when considered in a wider social context.

          Your comment made me think of their self-defence mechanism in a multifaceted way and in a variety of contexts.

          Firstly, let’s say we take a scientific, logical approach and look at a narcissist as a living individual species on it’s own without looking at how it relates to or affects anything else around it – sort of like looking at one single organism under a microscope. Sure, from this perspective the narcissist’s facade, the predatory outlook, the manipulations and instinctive need for power can look like evolutionary strengths. The narcissistic traits can appear to be geared towards better survival prospects.

          But we could also say the same things about cancer cells, or toxic snakes, or prolific weeds, or killer viruses. In isolation, all of these things would look like brilliantly evolved species that had superior defence mechanisms that gave them greater survival prospects.

          Again, with a completely scientific and logical outlook, if we take these individual species with so-called ‘superior’ defence mechanisms and then integrate them with other species that have less aggressive self-defence mechanisms, what will happen?

          The ‘aggressors’ with the superior defence mechanisms will pose a threat to, or start to destroy, the less aggressive species. In order for the overall group to survive in mutually beneficial progress, the aggressors will have to be contained or controlled or evaded in some way. Left uncontrolled or unevaded, the aggressors will destroy their own environment, habitat, social group, or food supply, etc. By using their self-defence mechanisms, they will create an enviroment that is harmful even to themselves.

          So, when their ‘superior’ defence-mechanism is considered in a wider context over a longer period of time, it becomes a case of ‘too much’. It’s too destructive to be ultimately beneficial.

          I hope that makes sense.

          1. K says:

            Thank you WiserNow
            That does make sense and the negative impact of NPD should not be overlooked or downplayed.

            If you take a step back and look at it logically, these individual species with so-called “superior” defence mechanisms (narcissists) have been integrated and interacting with apaths, empaths, psychopaths, Co-Ds and other narcissists since time immemorial and the modern world, as we know it, is a result of that integration and interaction. Narcissists have always been around and they are here to stay and they have had many positive impacts on society that shouldn’t be dismissed either and Steve Jobs and Apple is just one example.

            The brain wires the self-defence mechanism into itself as a consequence of genetics and environment. It is a machine, it is efficient and direct and it allows the individual to survive in his/her reality and that is brilliant.

            Predation is part of evolution and snakes play a key role in the food chain by maintaining a balanced and healthy eco system. They are both predators and prey and without them we would probably have a series rodent problem.

          2. WiserNow says:

            You’re welcome K, and thank you also for this very interesting conversation. I think you’re great and I appreciate your presence here on the blog very much. Your comments are always interesting, insightful, humorous or helpful, so I want to stress that I’m not arguing with you or contradicting your views.

            Actually, you are helping me to broaden my own views and to see things with greater clarity. I can understand both your view and my own.

            I agree with you that predation is part of evolution and that each kind of species (whether human or not) has a key role in maintaining a healthy eco system. I think that when one particular kind of species begins to dominate others (and therefore creates an imbalance in the system), there are natural forces that occur in order to bring the whole system back into balance again. Narcissists and other personality types have been in existence since forever, so they have a place and a role just as all other ‘types’ do.

            A couple of things stand out for me in this thread. One is the emotional judgement that all humans use with words. Words lead us to believe certain thoughts or connotations that make us think things are either good or bad, superior or inferior, brilliant or destructive, for example. When you look at things very logically, these emotional judgements and connotations start to become empty or even unfair. In and of themselves, all organisms and species exist because nature made it so. Nature is not judgemental or biased, it simply enables or creates things to evolve in order to survive and reproduce if possible.

            Having said that, even judgement or emotional belief is necessary though, and nature made that the case too. If humans believe an action is ‘bad’, they will either avoid doing that action or will judge someone else for doing it, so I think there is a fundamental basis or ‘need’ to judge or become emotional.

            The second thing that comes to mind springs from my own experience with my narcissistic mother. When I was a child and teenager, my mother ruled the roost. Her views dominated everyone in my nuclear family (ie Mum, Dad, two kids). She had no rivals or competitive threats from any of us and her wishes were not challenged.

            From the outside, and considered on a ‘macro’ level in a logical way, our ‘family unit’ survived at that time in the larger society quite well. We had resources, we were unified (because we each had a valid reason to stay that way) and we prospered in terms of how society viewed being ‘prosperous’ was supposed to look at the time. So, in that scenario, my mother’s narcissistic personality was a benefit, though on a ‘micro’ level it was doing damage and causing harm, some of which would not be evident until later.

            Fast forward a couple of decades and my mother still wants to dominate and rule the roost, even though her children are young adults and making their own lives. My mother now views her children as either ‘appliances’ or ‘rivals’ to either control or compete with. She still wants the ‘family unit’ to remain unchanged with her at the helm, even though by doing so she threatens to alienate and antagonise the very people who she depends on.

            In turn, the emotional control she has held since the beginning has taken its toll on all members of the family, especially the children. They have not evolved in the most advanced way and have not had easy relationships or prosperous situations. My mother’s selfishness and control has helped her own prosperity but hampered and seriously damaged the prosperity of other close family members.

            Finally, I just want to add something about Steve Jobs and Apple computers. This is a general view that relates to other situations and not just Steve Jobs. I think Steve Jobs is not solely responsible for ‘creating’ Apple computers or making them so popular. Yes, he was the CEO, but if you look at the creative genius and technical skills that went into the actual inventing and making of Apple products, I’d say he had a whole big team of nameless and uncredited creative and skilled people and I’d be willing to bet that some of those people were empaths too. Narcissists generally (HG is a rare exception!) are too lazy and too self-absorbed to spend the time and effort to create new inventions and think of technical improvements. So I think it’s unfair to credit Steve Jobs alone for the amazing technical advances made by Apple.

            K,
            These are my views and I’m not saying they’re right while other views are wrong. I can see your perspective and your views as well. Maybe it’s from experience, but I have a negative view of narcissists. HG and what he’s doing with this blog is an exception to the rule, but I think seeing narcissists in the same light that we see HG can be very misleading. That’s my take. Thank you again for this very interesting conversation 🙂

          3. K says:

            My pleasure WiserNow
            Your views are not wrong at all and I agree with what you wrote. No doubt about it, there are serious negative consequences associated with NPD and families have been destroyed by narcissistic parents or siblings and it is unacceptable and shouldn’t be tolerated. There are a slew of NPD parents, whose children attend school with my daughter, that should be jailed for child abuse. Part of the problem is the complete and utter lack of knowledge about NPD, how to identify it and properly address it and I blame the APA for that.

            However, in order for me to truly understand NPD, I am trying to be as neutral as possible. By using unbiased judgment and detachment, I can override my worldview and really grasp the narcissistic perspective and move forward in a logical and compassionate manner.

            This much I know is true:
            1. Narcissists do not know what they are.
            2. This was done to them as children; they did not choose this.
            3. They did not deserve this and they are blameless.
            4. They cannot be fixed/changed.

            So, I am focussing my energy on understanding so I can then focus my energy on spreading the word about narcsite and helping others.

            Steve Jobs didn’t work alone his friend, Steve Wozniak, was a major contributor in the development of the original Apple Macintosh and there were many others who contributed, too, however, Jobs was an innovative genius who changed the tech world and that was because of his narcissism.

            For me, it isn’t so much about a positive or negative view of NPD it is more about looking at the whole picture and that is what I am attempting to do.

          4. WiserNow says:

            I understand K, and I’m also very motivated to learn about and understand them with compassion and an open mind.

            I also agree that the four points you have listed are true.

            Keeping in mind what we have discussed and also the fact that narcissism is causing many problems in society, large and small, that leave victims with a dire need for psychological help, do you still believe the self-defence mechanism of narcissists is brilliant? (Please don’t feel the need to answer that, by the way. It’s a rhetorical question ;-))

            I don’t know about you, but I don’t see it as brilliant at all. It does provide some benefits, but along the way, it also has terrible costs.

          5. K says:

            WiserNow
            The brilliance lies in the brains ability to wire an individual to survive his/her reality, however, the consequence(s) of that wiring is, in many ways, horrific.

            It’s survival. It reminds me of malaria and sickle cell. The sickle cell mutation protects against the parasite (good) but it does have negative consequences like sickle cell anemia (not so good).

            NPD (cluster Bs) is an enormous problem and therapists, the legal system, domestic violence organizations and the medical profession has no idea what they are dealing with and that needs to be remedied and, in many cases, good psychological help is cost prohibitive and that excludes many victims from getting help.

            If you sit back and really think about it, nobody gave these children the book: Word Salad for Dummies, it just comes naturally to them. Although it may seem perverse, I am amazed by that.

          6. Steve Foo says:

            Hi K and WiserNow,

            This is a really interesting thread. You could write a paper on the subject with a title like “An Evolutionary Psychology Interpretation of Narcissism in Society”. In fact a quick google shows there is indeed a field named Evolutionary Psychology. One way we can understand the existence of people with NPD in our society is to recognise that although in the short term they’re a royal pain in the butt, in the longer term they may help society as a whole become stronger and healthier as we evolve mechanisms to recognise and combat the parasitic infection. A sort of co-evolution you could say. The AI field of generative adversarial networks (GAN) also comes to mind.

            So thanks HG for making us stronger and wiser!

            Personally I’m hoping that sooner or later advances will be made in the field of brain plasticity to the extent that we can re-wire the missing circuits in the NPD brain in such a way that they could rejoin civilized society. Particularly for the lower forms that cross over into outright criminal behaviour.

          7. K says:

            Thank you, Steve Foo
            Exactly, although they are a royal pain in the butt (from our POV) there is a reason for psychopaths and NPDs and the benefits that they bring should not be ignored.

            I prefer the higher functioning, non-violent cluster Bs over the lower cognitive functioning ones any day.

          8. FYC says:

            Hello Steve Foo, Interesting comment. Given my cursory understanding of the subject, if your assumption is correct, you are basing your opinion on a static generator (HG has transferred all he knows) and a progressive generator (we continue to process and adjust to the generator). Is this the general idea?

            I’m thinking both are likely to be progressive and dynamic. Both would adapt to new data. This would create a model where the discriminator changes its behavior, and so does the generator and therefore the process would be ever continuing. It’s a lot to wrap your head around.

            Also I would think it would be more helpful to focus on the elimination of causation (how do we stop the cycle of abuse generationally to eliminate the abuse that is a clear and predictive factor of NPD and APD) so that it becomes a non factor. Eliminate the input of corrupt data, you abort the skewed result. Would very much appreciate your thoughts on this.

          9. Steve Foo says:

            Hi FYC,

            Sounds like you know more about ML than I do. But yes I agree both are going to be dynamic, ie co-evolution. To break the cycle it would seem like there are two options. One would be to identify and intervene when very young children are in danger of becoming cluster B due to inadequate parenting, something that would be nigh on impossible in practice. The second would be some way to enable the person with NPD to learn neurotypical thought patterns. If you’ve read the ideas presented in “The Brain that Changes Itself” by Norman Doidge there is hope that one day this might be a possibility.

            And now that I think about it, a longer term program of societal change that makes it harder for parents to damage the children in their care could help. We’d need some way of making sure that the children in the society have exposure to better emotional role models, not only that being provided by their retarded NPD parent. This would be the anthropological approach. We probably already do something like this when a child is identified as being at risk from a drug addicted parent, in the future NPD may be looked at in the same light. We can dream!

          10. WiserNow says:

            Steve Foo,

            I agree with you that narcissists “teach” us to be stronger and wiser, and that is a good thing, even though the learning process is a royal pain in the butt.

            Following on from your comments, I think societal change is possible and it’s not necessarily a farsighted dream. Blogs like this one and many others create awareness and that, in turn, leads to slow but progressive change in thought processes, behaviours and actions.

            Awareness and knowledge is a powerful thing, especially on a societal level. Change can be effected if people are provided with factual evidence and practical insight that improves their lives.

            Sixty odd years ago, for example, cigarettes were considered socially acceptable and even desirable. People smoked cigarettes in their homes, workplaces, restaurants, and in every social situation you could think of.

            With concerted efforts to educate the public about the health dangers of smoking and secondary smoke, the practice decreased all around the world. With governmental controls and legislation in place to ban advertising, restrict public smoking areas and restrict access to buying cigarettes, the practice of smoking is now generally known to be unhealthy and cigarettes are far less desirable. All of the current beliefs about smoking are the opposite of what they once were. It took a fairly long time, but it was possible.

            I think that awareness about mental health in general and NPD is currently growing in a similar way, along with positive changes. Once people see the positive aspects of change, they are more likely to want and even demand change.

          11. FYC says:

            Steve, Intervention for a child would be too late in the process. The defense mechanism that is narcissism, as well as the genetic allele that is triggered occurs at the earliest stage of development and attachment (most estimate 0-6 years of age). NPD is a defense mechanism developed for means of literal survival in the developing mind. Further, narcissistic behavior by the child is not always apparent even at an older age. There is no definitive, scientific test for NPD to date.

            Parental intervention also presents problems, including:
            1) Who would be able to impartially and accurately identify narcissism in a prospective parent? If such a means existed, would it be corrupted?
            2) How can one prove narcissistic abuse by a parent when they are experts at facade management?
            3) To what degree do we want to invite external arbiters of our life choices?

            I think the answer may lie in providing young people with a practical understanding of human behavior necessary for successful relationships. If we educate people at an age when their minds are able to comprehend complex subjects, perhaps high school, we can help children become aware of their attachment styles, self worth, behaviors toward self and other, etc. Perhaps this knowledge and awareness could lead to healthier choices. Likewise, we could educate young people on known behaviors that lead to painful relationships and are accurately predictive of divorce.

            This would not change NPD, but it might go a long way in helping young people make better choices.

  12. Missy says:

    For me….this is the best one you’ve written so far. It really shows the face of both sides. Thanks H.G.

  13. ava101 says:

    With the ex-narc, before knowing what he is, I could feel his pain, had a vision of an inner waste land, could sense emptiness, and so on, and the need to hide that, and also the tug to get reactions from me, and to get attention, his amusement, and so on. I could see that he had no empathy. As in … well, how do you feel that something is NOT there…
    But I cannot evoke emotions within myself that match the delight at hurting others, or non-caring, How does one feel with that kind of goal orientedness without caring for any downsides, when one has never experienced that before?

    So, yes, with imaginativeness, cognitive empathy, … I can, but I cannot match within myself the need for that kind of fuel, simply, because I do not possess the neurons for that and the brain wired that way.
    To experience the same as another person, one must probably have the ability to do so, and my brain IS different. Probably the same problem as the other way round.
    Also, it’s a survival program, not really emotions, an inner state.. or is it? Because I CAN feel for the NEED to get fuel, but not for the strategies in how it is gained, and the lack of remorse, because to even imagine to be wired that way, is almost impossible.

    I’m also not sure how far understanding for another person reaches, if it is completely contraire to ones own interests and survival.
    But we became empaths to detect the needs of another person, including narc parents, in the first place, no?
    I can even emphasize with predatory methods to ensnare a victim, but not with abusing her, because there is no echo of that within me — to gain something to the cost of another being on purpose; and empathy for the victim is stronger maybe. Empathy for the cause of it all is there in abundance and can be felt … but not for the wilful acts of a grown person lacking responsibility and remorse. How does one feel for the need to hurt another being?!
    One also needs a reference point in oneself, a similar experience as reference, … or one just feels bad inside …

    One of my limits is to understand how a mid ranger doesn’t know what he’s doing. How do you have empathy for unawareness and complete carelessness? And I don’t know how it feels to go for one’s goals, no matter what, and not caring at all for the chaos and the damage left all around. Should I be really able to sense how that feels, especially when it is a LACK of feelings? I don’t think so. I don’t possess mirror neurons for that, that’s a fact.

    I have read that even a psychopath can get a bad gut feeling about other psychopaths, is that true, HG??
    And, HG, do you have cognitive empathy for other narcissistic psychopaths?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      1. I can use cognitive empathy should I choose to do so – for anybody.
      2. I do not get bad gut feelings – unless I have eaten something dodgy which is extremely rare.
      3. The MR cognitive empathy is generated instinctively by the narcissism – he does not think about it, it just happens.

      I recommend you organise a consultation to help you get over this issue you are experiencing with understanding that the Mid Range narcissist does not plot, they act through instinct. He is unaware of what is really driving him.

  14. J.G says:

    Hello, H.G. Tudor.
    I really liked this post. I have been fortunate and I consider myself privileged to have been able to cross the mirror like Alice, and look from the other side. It all started with the silent treatment that I applied to my current partner. This treatment only lasted 4 days, but in those four days, I went into narcissistic mode, my mind did not stop thinking and asking me questions regarding the inconsiderate behavior of my partner. It was in the silence of the treatment that another perspective was opened to me.
    I think to understand the narcissist you must be a pseudo narcissist for a few hours or days. If it’s done, you can see and come to see that his behavior is rational from his perspective.
    Although everything has to be said we will never be able to become narcissistic because we have our empathic traits, fully developed emotional traits, etc.
    Even so, I can say that for me, who went through the mirror, from the narcissist’s perspective is totally rational and logical.
    I already wrote it for him, in a comment that was not finally moderated.
    I don’t know if other victims have ever crossed the mirror but in my experience I think it is very positive and liberating, because you see and understand that in part we also have our share of guilt, not having known, understood and correctly supplied the fuel correctly. That we also did damage and in this game there is no victim and executioner. As mentioned in that comment.
    When you see that this is so you also free yourself in this process.
    Victim vs. Victim. is not possible.
    Executioner vs. Executioner is not possible.
    After the process you come to the following conclusion and reflection.
    “When the guilt is everyone’s, the guilt is no one’s…”
    Concepción Arenal. Spanish writer and journalist 1820-1893

    1. J.G says:

      Maybe my comments start with a bit of a head start. Well, my experience with my narcissist was my first love when I was 18 today 43.
      And I’ve been applying zero contact for more than a long decade. And this is my great advantage in relation to other victims.
      Some people may think that zero contact is not effective and is taken lightly and should not be so.
      Really like everything costs at first, but if you are determined finally get out. In my time there was nothing of internet and media and much less works and aids as good as those of H.G Tudor, who teach you and shows you the thread with which to get out of the labyrinth.
      That’s why I leave you this reflection that comes as a ring to the finger, although the original speaks of the Devil, I have changed for narcissist.

      “The demon (narcissist) is like a rabid dog tied to the chain; he cannot hurt anyone beyond what the chain allows him. So stay away. If you get too close, it will catch you.”
      – Pietrelcina Pío

    2. Sarah Jane says:

      I like that quote, J.G.

      Interesting thoughts.

  15. veronicajones1969 says:

    HG do you arm narcissists with tools they don’t have as well as empathetic people and why

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I do not VJ.

      1. veronicajones1969 says:

        Thank you 🙏

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are welcome.

  16. ava101 says:

    Have you entered a new level in your life, HG?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I reached a new level on Pac Man last night if that is what you mean?!

      1. Sarah Jane says:

        Gobbling those pellets.

        Reached level 256 yet, Mr Tudor? The map on that level glitches out and you’ll get a killscreen.

  17. Francesca Lupi says:

    It’s very, very hard to emphatize with the narc-mind. For example, I’m pretty sure I didn’t change my behavior, I’m pretty sure I introduced myself as what I actually am and I remained simply myself during the relationship. I clearly remember I said unequivocally my convictions to him so I can’t be accused of having promised something that I didn’t do. I think there’s no possibilities to be a acceptable partner for a narc. Not for a long time. You said that too. You don’t want to eat every day the same ice cream.

    1. Mercy says:

      Francesca, our promises in the beginning are null and void because we were never aware of the contract

    2. Accept Tornent says:

      Chuck said to fate
      Check and mate
      Giggled the escape

    3. Accept Tornent says:

      Cream feeling has a cents as well

    4. Claire says:

      It is hard to empathize but I admit having sadness for what created my ex’s disposition. Even early in the marriage he was constantly seeking and trying to get his dad to pay heed to him—his dad abandoned them when they were young. It was pathetic to watch and I didn’t even know what I was dealing with or how bad it would get.

      1. Francesca Lupi says:

        Claire: yes, me too. I was very sad for him because I knew a lot of episodes of his unhappy childhood. No doubt about that. I could emphatize with that kind of experiences, I’m not talking about that. When you think about an abandoned child you could recognize something you could feel too. I tell you more: the same fact I was prey of a feeling of tenderness for that “problematic little boy” has turned into a trap for me: my compassion for that child prevented me from realizing the narcissistic adult I was facing. That’s a dangerous trap. I hope I explained myself well…

        1. Claire says:

          You absolutely did explain beautifully—I never thought otherwise. I just recall watching him try and try to get that approval and it always made me sad. It’s still sad when I’m in a more melancholy sort of mood.
          Generally though I’m furious because he has a sadistic streak and it impacted my oldest daughter—so more often I’m more inclined to just be angry. I’m hoping a point of nothingness occurs. Not sure if that happens though.

  18. life outside says:

    I found him there
    In the dark windowless room,
    A young boy
    Left alone so long
    He became feral.
    So consumed with fear
    That he will be abandoned;
    So consumed with fury—
    Absolutely certain that he will be.
    I found him and picked him up
    Held him in my arms
    Cried with him
    Did not let his scratches and kicks
    Drive me off.
    But I could not wake him.
    I could not make him see
    That I am here!
    His madness tried to kill me.
    Though I retreated to a safe
    Distance and prayed,
    My love remains there
    In that dark loneliness with
    Him,
    Where he has been abandoned by
    You.
    He won’t see, has never been
    Allowed to use his eyes,
    But I have not left.
    I won’t leave.
    May it cost me my life
    And my own sanity
    I will not leave him.

    You left him there to
    Spare yourself the pain he feels.
    You keep him in the dark
    So he won’t see how you
    Are abusing his life
    Refusing to allow him to be loved
    Refusing to allow him
    Light or freedom or
    Growth.
    You heap upon him in his
    Dark room the humanity
    You have broken
    And laugh your soulless laugh
    And wind up to do it again.

    But you and he are one.
    You do not do this to others,
    You do it to yourself.
    The harm you cause that brings
    Our tears and pain is harm done to
    Yourself. Your tears delayed,
    Your pain delayed.
    You think you are free,
    But you are the one in the dark room.
    That is why you
    Cannot see.

    That my love for him is love for you.
    It is not ignorant or uninformed-
    I know what you are.
    When you poke holes in the ship,
    I patch them up.
    When you flood us, I get the buckets.
    When you sink the ship,
    I walk on water.
    I am what he prayed for, the angel,
    The lover, the soul’s longing,
    The healer.
    Another will not come,
    So I must not fail.
    Wake up.
    I am here.
    Stop wrestling with angels.

    1. Maddox says:

      I wrote something earily similiar ..its beatiful

      1. WhoCares says:

        Agreed, Maddox.
        It is a beautiful poem by life outside.

        I’m especially touched by this:

        “When you poke holes in the ship,
        I patch them up.
        When you flood us, I get the buckets.
        When you sink the ship,
        I walk on water.”

        Thank-you for sharing, life outside.

        1. life outside says:

          Thank you.

          There is a way of looking at people with your eyes closed and seeing who they really are. I was able to do that with my narc, and I saw that he is here for a vary fierce purpose, and he himself has wings. He descends from Heaven like lightning. As of now, though, he is still running the programs. He does not know what he is. I could not convince him. It will be done, though, as God has marked him by his involvement with me. I have failed with him, but God will not.

          1. WhoCares says:

            life outside,

            “There is a way of looking at people with your eyes closed and seeing who they really are.”

            Yes, I understand you.
            With mine, I knew he was broken but I still wanted to love him. But then it would have only been to my detriment. So I set him free; by setting myself free.

            Best to you ♡

  19. nunya biz says:

    Well if they actually SAID “fuel” it would make more sense. But they think they want something else.

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