Poll : Which Traits Has Your Emotional Thinking Hijacked And Used Against You?


Emotional thinking is the crafty and conniving enemy within. It operates under a cloak of apparent logic to drive you to continue some form of engagement with the narcissist and thus maintain your addition and heighten your emotional thinking further, leading to sustained interaction, the inability to move forward and furthering the pain, allied with feelings of anger, pain, misery and frustration.

Curbing your emotional thinking is essential and thus you must recognise it  before you lose insight and then reduce it through ceasing or preventing engagement through no contact.

Emotional thinking will hijack your empathic and/or narcissistic traits and use them against you. It might be by causing you to keep wanting an explanation from the narcissist as to why he or she has done what they have done (Truthseeker), it might be remaining with the narcissist because you perceive they cannot manage with out you say through a health problem (Guilt and Compassion). It might be causing you to go to war with the narcissist (Pride and/or Justice), to remaining engaging owing to the presence of children (Decency) or thinking that love means taking the rough with the smooth (Love Devotee).

Have you now realised which of your traits have been hijacked and are turned against you to cause you to continue engaging with the narcissist and thus in contravention of the First Golden Rule of Freedom? If so, identify them from the (non-exhaustive) list below (you may choose all which apply) and expand on your thoughts and experiences in the comments.

Which of these traits has your emotional thinking hijacked and used against you concerning the narcissist?

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268 thoughts on “Poll : Which Traits Has Your Emotional Thinking Hijacked And Used Against You?

  1. Violetta says:

    Your therapist had what my mentor at my recent job (we talked recently: she was there 20 years and also got sidelined) called “a bee in her bonnet.” My mentor said Dolores Umbridge was not reacting to anything about me: she was obsessed with her Color-coding exercise and her Synthesis Matrix. If I was unsure what purpose the exercises served or a student (my library science major) appeared capable of writing a perfectly acceptable dissertation without them, that meant her assignments were neither self-explanatory nor essential. My mentor has met many people like that, and she said, “It’s never about you.”

    Your therapist was not criticizing your hair or hygiene; she didn’t even notice them, wrapped up.as she was in the glories of her Brochure, which was her personal bee in the bonnet.

  2. wildviolet22 says:

    I’m went with compassion. Knowing the person long term, and having memories of him from when we were younger (looking back there probably were hints/ signs of something not being quite right, however, knowing what I know now), coupled with some grief I was dealing with over someone else, really clouded my judgment, though.

    Also, I’ve done the no contact before with a couple of boyfriends when I was in my 20s, as well as with a couple old friends from the past, where the friendships didn’t work out, and I really was hoping to keep in touch and not have it come down to that. However, the more I got to know him present day, the more I saw how tormented/ conflicted he was about relationships in general, and how self sabotage and his extreme projections / poorly managed resentments caused him to act out and burn bridges. Plus all of the information here, made me realize that for me, it’s no contact, or be slowly driven crazy with the bs, and being treated badly. So compassion from afar/ in memory, it is. :/

  3. Lorelei says:

    Kim–I’m really glad I bounced back to this thread. Isn’t it incredible that wishing to know the truth can make us look ridiculous by means of how some of us go and on and on to the point of maybe annoyance.. Decency keeps us locked in marriages that feel awful even though we don’t maybe even know they are abusive, the moral compass keeps us from capitalizing on maybe more fiscally fruitful ventures in life, whereas the narcissist can obtain wealth because of no conscious. Being a love devotee may subject us to sexually transmitted infections because we lose sense of good sense, a sense of justice can cost us a fortune in a divorce when the judge really could give two fucks who is right or wrong. Honesty can ring up a whole other dialogue of negative outcomes! Do you know that my addictive capacity for this behavior was capitalizing on guilt to keep me sick and embedded? Embedded in misery. We are really fortunate to be here and not sitting on a therapist’s couch reading a brochure on good self care. I actually went to a therapist maybe five years ago that wanted me to read on good hygiene practices and maybe doing yoga. I was dressed in a business suit with my hair done and she was suggesting that hygiene can make you feel good! I was like WTF, something isn’t right but I have no idea yet what it is! Maybe HG can write an article on how to take a shower and apply a facial mask?

  4. Abe Moline says:

    Hi, Kim e,

    It’s a very pleasant feeling to know you made a small difference in someone’s life, so… very much thank you for your words.
    I’m still around, actually I just had (again) a big bout of reading KTN and other resources, but I mostly refrain from commenting. I have actually posted one recently, you can find more details about my progress here: https://narcsite.com/2019/12/30/why-does-the-narcissist-compartmentalise-appliances-8/#comment-327604
    I am feeling much better though and I am narc free.
    I am now focused on healing myself, don’t care much about my Nx anymore. I am looking at past experiences from my childhood, and I think I found some deeply buried abandonment fears which might trigger the style of attachment I have and the addiction.
    I will detail some more about this as a reply to my comment I mentioned above, might be interesting for others too, and might be therapeutic for me.

    I hope you are also doing well. How’s it going?

    I also hope ChiMum has finally managed to implement No Contact…

    1. Kim e says:

      Hi Abe,
      Was really excited to hear from you. Glad you are doing well. Dont be too hard on yourself for issues int he past that your family inflicted on you. We are parents try to do our best but if we sit down and really think about it…that is ALL we can do…our best. Your family, whether N’s, empaths, or normals, just did whatever came natural to them. I am in no means saying it is right. I have lots of buried stuf that I do not know if I will ever bring to the surface and let go of,
      My sons turned out to be good men. Served their country voluntarily. My oldest told me one that he got his work ethic from me. He watched me and knew that as a single mom I could not make the football games because I had to work so they could have the cleets to play inthe football game. He had me bawling like a baby!!!
      OK…back on course…
      I am not doing well with my NC. My addiction is way stronger than I ever thouhgt. But I will make it.
      Take care and keep in touch. We alumni need to keep in touch

      1. Abe Moline says:

        Kim e,

        I think you are showing me the (internal) forgiveness path towards my parents, while NarcAngel (on my other discussion thread) shows me the path of receiving, counting on, accepting external help.
        These two probably go well together and I will try to always remember them.
        Thank you.

        I’ve skimmed through your long discussion with SMH and saw you have trouble with NC, but sorry, could not find how exactly you broke it. You just unblocked him, without any communication?
        For some reason, I don’t have much trouble with guilt. So I never beat myself up for breaking NC in some way. But I don’t know how to convey this attitude to others, except saying that you should move forward and just start over again, and over again, and so on, until it sticks. Always keep in mind that NC will bring you relief, clarity, balance, peace of mind, self confidence. It is guaranteed and anybody can do it. You need to be patient though.

        I wish you good luck.
        Gather your strength and pull through!

        1. Kim e says:

          Ling discussion with SMH….I have no idea what you re referring to….LOL. Poor HG has to read all this rubbish
          Yes. I unblock him but do not contact him. Not sure if he has tried to text me since I first blocked him way back in September but I get unknown calls (blocked calls). In my empath brain I think the only reason I get those is the N tried to text and figured out he was blocked and this is his way of keeping his foot in the door. And yes…that approach has worked in the past. Right now he is not blocked and I was hoovered a week ago.
          I have no problem with guilt at all regarding unblocking. I have started over agin many times and I know one of these days I will reach my limit. I guess today is not it.
          Take care Abe. Nice chatting.

          1. SMH says:

            lol Kim e. How long now have we been at this? Months and months. I thought W was blocked today!

          2. Kim e says:

            SMH. Ok. I last saw W end of August for “the dinner” and you and I were talking before that. So I am going to guess 7 months. I know the majority of the talk was on Come One Come All so whenever that was last shown.
            Looks like I missed our 6 month anniversary. If you send me flowers I will forgive you

          3. SMH says:

            Kim e, You still haven’t told me what happened. You are very good at deflecting and I won’t push you, but if you want flowers, you will have to tell me :).

          4. Kim e says:

            What happened when? You mean about Vegas?

          5. SMH says:

            Kim e, Not Vegas. I wrote that before I knew how NC had been broken. But now I know that you contacted him rather than, say, unblocking him and him contacting you.

          6. Kim e says:

            Gonna bear my soul here and hope it helps me. Sorry HG for the length this might be,

            BUT first…SMH…..what would the difference have been if I had unblocked and he contacted me as opposed to how it happened? He had been hoovering me for 3 weeks…….

            OK now on to the soul bearing.
            I live a very isolated life. Always have from the time I was small it was me in my made up world fending for myself. Many past betrayals and in 2006 I built a wall around me and let no one in unless I had walled them in with me when the bricks were laid. None of them were romantic relationships. Most of the friends I allowed in my world live out of state. Men had approached me but I would literally back away. I have a good friend that I see most weekends, talk to during the week. Everyone I work with is younger.
            I started take the train in 2015. I met 2 girls and we became friendly. One of them I felt I could count on if I had to, the other not at all. The one Denise that I felt I could count on, we still talk. She is the one that unknowingly gives me info on W like when he was looking for me when I first moved my car. She is the first one that told me about W and the new one on the train. She knew about me and W in as much as anyone else did which in effect was nothing at all. She thought we were dating, staying at each others houses, sex must be great……he is 25 years younger.
            I met W in 2017. (Sorry SHM still not ready to talk about Vegas)I did not back away nor did I move towards him. I just stood still. Fell in love,of course, but for some reason never told him. Something held me back. Fast forward to 2020…..
            The reason for me telling you this is the isolation that I guess I am guilty of creating keeps my locked in my mind with no where to go with my thoughts and no one to talk to. My days are long with really no play time. My friend that I see on weekends would never in a million lifetimes understand about me & W. She does not know he exists. Another friend that does know about W lives in NC. She was the one that got me looking into Narcissists. She hung in there with me for a while but you know…old story of “just leave…”.
            I then have you guys on KTN. I adore you all. So much kindness and support even from an ultra. But there are things I do not wish to share with so many strangers.I guess there is no one out there that really knows all about me.
            I have discovered thru this site also that my mother was a N and my last boss whom I lovingly call the cunt was a N. I am sure there were others that I did not know were N’s like a lot of the one nighters. Ironically when I was with W I would complain about the C.
            I am sure HG has heard this story numerous times. Can I tell you why I contacted W after all those months? Not really. I do look forward to seeing him, if it happens. I just felt I need to explain to you a little about me. I guess I am still that little girl looking for someone to pay attention to me…whether it is good or bad. Looking for someone to join in my world.
            I also know myself well enough that even tho I know W is bad for me, if I consult with HG now it would not do any good. Might be ET yes but like I said somewhere else here I do not like people telling me what to do. Maybe it is because I have had to figure it out on my own my whole life. I would, at this point, listen to HG agree with him and then go ahead and do what I want. Little bits and pieces of what he said would stay there yes and maybe that is what I need…little bits and pieces.
            This is very scattered I know.
            Just a little insight into Kim’s world and mind.
            Thank you both for listening. Any feed back is truly appreciated.

          7. Fool Me 1 Time says:

            Kim e,

            You would be surprise at how much HG actually knows about each of us without telling him a thing. I also don’t have to tell you that when you are ready you will contact him. Now for somethings that might surprise you a little bit. I read your comment and saw so much of myself in there, little girl buried deep inside hiding since childhood, always looking for attention and it always being from the wrong people. Closing myself off from people and building that wall. The people on here at this time are the only one’s that I have to talk to and that’s ok with me. I have no friends. My ex narcissist was 19 years younger then I was and for some unknown reason he has been the only one that took me to the lowest point in my life. I still don’t know why and I try not to think about it anymore, but at times it slips in. I have been with all ages, younger, older, and in between, everyone of them a narcissist! Kim e you’ll figure this out, in your on time and in your own way. We all do things differently because we are all different. When it is time and your ET is under control once again ( we both know it is your ET and addiction that will not allow you to listen to HG, it is not you not liking someone telling you what to do. ) you will contact HG and you will try again. It might not work at that time either, but Kim e at least you keep trying and that is what is important sweetie. Remember we are all right here and are not going anywhere. Take care of yourself Kim e and please never give up. 😘💞

          8. Kim e says:

            I tired to reply to this yesterday. The issue was every time I started reading it, i would start crying (shit tearing up now). I really don’t know what to say except thank you. You made me think using LT about my life in the past.
            Guess we are all broken, Empaths and N’s, just in different ways.

          9. Fool Me 1 Time says:

            Dear Kim e you are very welcome! I was going to tell you not to cry, but we have had to hold back those emotions far to long! You go ahead and have a good cry, and when you’re finished wash your face, strap up those boot straps and start all over again! ( when you are ready. ) One step at a time, one day at a time. 💞xxx

          10. Kim e says:

            I would cry at the part about the lost lonely little girl. Broke my heart to realize it was me and that I had been abused by family members just looking for love .
            Over the weekend, I made a decision to pull away from my “family” (not my kids) as I am only good enough to be invited to showers or funerals. I am done. Feels good.
            Now to work onthe other pulling away that needs to be done. I think the origins of that are deeper and will take me really digging to get out of it. But I will.
            Thanks for the support

          11. Fool Me 1 Time says:

            You’re welcome Kim e. Don’t forget one step at a time, one day at a time. 😘💞

          12. SMH says:

            Aww Kim e, I just saw this. For some reason it did not show up properly in my email and since I was in a rush last night and earlier today, I only responded to the ones where I could see ‘SMH.’ I hope you don’t think I was ignoring you!

            I am very social, so we are somewhat different, but we both got involved with narcs and have narcs in our families, and we both feel like we have to fend for ourselves. Especially in romantic relationships, Ns want us isolated because it’s easier to manipulate us and because they want all the attention. If I told you about the endless arguments I had with exLH about this very thing, you would see. And I suspect that is why MRN’s IPPS was alone ALL the time.

            Loneliness makes one vulnerable but you don’t see W on weekends anyway, correct? Maybe feeling lonely and not being able to break completely away from him are two different issues? Or maybe you are holding yourself back by believing that if you fill the holes, you will have to give him up? Using him as a bit of a crutch? I know that I felt that way with MRN – that I was like a toddler who needed her mommy, so I would venture out into the world and then go running back to him. He didn’t need to do anything. It took that realization on my part – that he was like my security blanket – to make me deal with MY issues – separate from him – and to start questioning the nature of my attachment.

            I wonder if you could work on your things separately too. Leave W and the question of a consult to one side for now. Instead, think about how you could make your weekends busier. Could you start going to the gym on weekends instead of after work? At least so you are around people? Could you find someone to have drinks with on a Saturday night? Or have after work drinks on a Friday? Could you develop a new hobby and meet a new group of people? Do something in your community? I know some of this might sound superficial or corny but my feeling is that if you could fill up your weekends a bit, you might be able to fortify yourself better against intrusive thoughts of W and who knows, you might meet someone new!!

            I thought about this a lot – it has taken me a good hour to write it. But I keep coming to the conclusion that feeling alone and getting attached to a narc require separate solutions. I also think it is a huge step for you to start asking these questions, and of course we can continue this discussion and I will help as much as I can.


          13. Kim e says:

            No I did not think you very ignoring me.
            This is going to be a process for me. Work is a bitch right now. I dont have time for a social life during the week even if I wanted one. I really am OK on weekends as long as they are not those 3 or 4 day ones with no plans. I get bored.
            I do need to start getting out even if it is to go to the library or for a walk. So dang cold and gloomy here lately.
            Maybe I will hang out at a starbucks reading….
            I dont know.
            I am cancelling my gym membership…I think I told you already. No fear. I will get another one at a normal gym. This place was only classes……couldnt just go and work the leg machine (my fav) for hours.
            I will come up with something.
            I dont think I ever asked you what is up with married neighbor and the emails> You sure he isnt a N? Is this the same neighbor as before?
            Thanks for being there…

          14. SMH says:

            Hey Kim e, For some reason, a lot of your replies to me are buried. I think because the title of this post is too long for my email so I can’t see who the responses are to and skipped some of them. I went shopping today – really went to pick up a new pair of trainers/sneakers and ended up with two coats, sneakers, a pair of jeans, etc. I have this young gay friend who has a burnt orange fuzzy coat, so I picked up a blue one and tomorrow night we are going out on the town in our fuzzy coats.

            Neighbor guy – yes same. He started emailing me suddenly after I left. I can’t really explain but I can sense the pull push thing happening. He will tell me some pretty heavy things and then suddenly go cool and withdraw. I don’t know if he is an N or why he decided that he could/should talk to me. But I am watching. Keeping things light – responding but not initiating.

            I saw your post about doing NC on your own time. I get it but I think maybe you don’t quite see the connection between NC and lowered ET? At some point, you cross a threshold – the dry land following the emotional sea – it just goes away. It might reoccur occasionally but it really does get better. Just hard to see when you are trying to do it. Anyway, don’t worry about me and what I think. I am not judging you and I do want to hear what happens with W. Have you seen him yet?

            Hanging out at a coffee shop is a good way to kill a few hours. People watch! And glad you are not giving up on the gym altogether. Which family did you ditch and why? I thought you occasionally saw some of them who live close by?

            I must go to sleep. Had a few brutal days and then all that shopping today. Will check in tomorrow. Smooches.

          15. Kim e says:

            SMH…..LOL the fuzzy coat twins. Wish I could see. I have not shopped for clothes for me since my crusie last May. BUT I am back into my size 8 jeans….YEA ME!!!!
            What does neighbor guy talk about? Is this the same neighbor guy as in the summer?

            NC and ET…I get it. It is hard. And one of these times I will make it or I fear HG will show up at my house………….LOL

            I ditched my sister, niece. They are the ones that went to my kids wedding in October and did not even give them a CARD. I was livid. Long story but we have the same father and when he died it was like I did not exist any longer exceot for wedding, showers and funerals. My BIL’s family invites me to more functions then my own sister. I am done. the times that I occasionally saw them it was always me setting it up. I never get a How are you call at all. They can bite me.

            This whole month has lasted about 78 days. It has been brutal. Tired.
            sleeping in tomorrow (that will be until 8) hair done and then I am not sure.
            You ever hear from OM?

          16. SMH says:

            Kim e, Size eight is great! Good for you! I buy most of my clothes in 2nd hand stores and then take them back when I am tired of them. Last year I bought four coats that way.

            No word from OM. I don’t think about him so I know I did the right thing. Same neighborhood guy. He used to cc his wife and only ‘business’ emails. Now he doesn’t cc her anymore and tells me about things that have happened to him (quite serious) and I listen and try to give advice. Sometimes it’s just banter. I don’t get the feeling that he is trying to seduce me. I just think he is reaching out emotionally, which has its own dangers. I am not sure why except that I must have inadvertently tapped into something. Or maybe I am just naive.

            I am sorry your family does not reciprocate. My family has problems too but in general we mostly manage. The young ones especially get along – all the cousins are friends, which is most important. Are your sons in touch with any family apart from when there is an occasion?

            Remember I told you January would be brutal?! Hope the weather is nice for you tomorrow. Smooches.

          17. Kim e says:

            SMH. I loved 2nd hand stores. Sometimes there are great deals. Kept me in “new” clothes when I was laid off. Did wonders for the self image. I donate all of them back as then they are a tax write off
            So wait…what are some of the things that NM tells you? You were very suspicious of him before. Why even answering the emails now? Be careful. He could be a N that just approaches thing differently then your other 2. (LOL Me giving advise…LOL Kinda like the pot calling the kettle black) Just be careful.
            My sons really were never included after a certain age in any family stuff. They are older then their cousins and our worlds only came together for the holidays or deaths. Both my boys saw my younger sisters family at my nieces wedding 2 years ago and at my oldest wedding this year. Otherwise there is no type of communication. SO FUCK IT.
            January weather here was very good for January. Maybe all totaled 3 inches of snow. And not that cold. Weather nice today but I am in hermit mode so answering emails, laundry, taxes, eating, grocery shopping………blah blah blah. Kathi went for her c-scan today for the cancer check up so I decided to just hang.

          18. SMH says:

            Kim e, I answer the emails because we are friends. I was surprised that he started writing to me personally but we are also in the same profession and what has happened to him has affected his career. I told him way back that if he ever wanted to talk to me about it I would listen, so I am. I guess if the emails start drifting into topics that are too personal, it will be time to back away.

            I don’t think you should write your family off just yet since no one seems to have done anything particularly mean, did they?

            How is Kathi? I have a friend who just got the results of a scan too. She’s been hanging on for years through various chemos and immunotherapies. Is going into a new trial now because they have sort of run out of options…

            I am about to collapse but I also saw two posts from you that there has been no word from W. Typical. Don’t worry about it. Don’t block him – don’t do anything, otherwise you are giving him fuel. Reminds me of when MRN gave me an ST and it sent my ET sky high and me into a rage! It didn’t end well after I poured all that fuel over him :).

            I will have to write more about it tomorrow as I can barely keep my eyes open now. Smooches!

          19. Kim e says:

            Just makeing sure you had seen this post that was addressed to you and Abe

            “I guess HG is right, hope is the great enemy. As long as there is hope, one might want to try another shot. Once hope is lost and you know for sure that another shot won’t bring anything back, then you can quit, no matter how painful.”

            Damn you Abe for pointing this out. I have been living on hope since I unblocked and WHY? It will just be the same. After I unblocked, I had hope. And then I had that thing called guilt because I contacted him. I feel guilt because I should not have done that and now if I block again, I will wound him. He will be hurt. F that…
            I am feeling my sadness coming back. My anxiety.
            I wish there was a magic pill to end this but I guess it is called a bullet and I am going to have to bite it. (metaphorically)

            Time to get back on track. God this is gonna hurt like hell………………


          20. SMH says:

            Kim e, Why are you worried about wounding him? You can’t wound him if he is ignoring you, right? How would that work? As for hope, well, it’s okay to have hope as long as you know when to give up on it. But I’m not sure what you were hoping for other than relief from your high ET (I think that’s what you really wanted – remember, it’s the addiction talking). Did you want to be friends with W? Just have him in your life? Rekindle the FR? Have occasional interactions with him to calm your ET? Smooches! It will be okay. Wish I could give you a real hug!

          21. SMH says:

            Kim e, I see you crying at FM1T’s sweet and supportive comments and it makes me think that you are not feeling as serene as you thought – there is a lot of emotional energy just under the surface. So I just want to add that this is all a process – two steps forward and one step back – and when you think back on how much you learned about yourself – unexpectedly – it almost makes it all seem worthwhile! It is fine to have a good cry – get those waterworks going! Smooches!

          22. Kim e says:

            Taking a break at work…my normal time I am supposed to be out of here……before I start another project.
            I was very serene just emotional regarding childhood issues that FM1T and I were talking about. Tears had nothing (or maybe everything) to do with W.
            I think I got catch up in the hype, tho it is the truth, that I HAVE TO GO NC. I realize I do but if I dont do it in my time or my way,,,maybe 50 times before it sticks, it wont matter. Yes HG I know that is ET but I am an empath and that is the way I process things.
            And beleive me I have no problem crying when need be. My first reiki treatment I cried for 2 days. I cant really call it crying as the tears flowed without any help from me. Kinda freaked me out but I felt better after words.
            Gott run.

          23. SMH says:

            Oh and Kim e, Just a heads up that I have to work overly much and travel the next few days. Bad timing but if I am not here when you look for me, know that I will be back and will be thinking of you!

          24. Kim e says:

            Having to work and travel???Who came up with that crappy plan???
            Safe travels and what ever you do dont work as hard or much as I do.

  5. Lorelei says:

    I’m here on this thread because K sent me, but I have an illegal copy of Anthony Hopkins AA lead. I see you are a fan. It actually felt wrong to be given this item some years back, no doubt a narcissist recorded his more intimate life details to share but I did listen to it. He’s an interesting man.

  6. Kim e says:

    I wish you were still here to see that this reply has helped me immensely. Baby steps. One minute at a time. Thank you
    Hope all is well in you little corner of the world and narc free🎉😃

  7. foolme1time says:

    Can we go back to food please?! Oh wait! I guess to some we are still discussing food!! 🤣🤣🤣🙃

  8. Bubbles 🍾 says:

    Dear Mr Tudor,
    Mine would be truth seeker, honesty, strong moral compass, decency and heal n fix
    My life began “hijacked” ….my mum chose our surname from the phone book
    Another excellent poll with fabulous comments
    Luv Bubbles xx 😘

  9. fox says:

    Desire to heal and fix ranks pretty high with me, but I have learned to recognize a lost cause and set boundaries. I try to spend my healing powers on people worthy and capable of benefitting from them. I never have it in my heart to hate anyone with mental illness, no matter how much hurt they may have caused me, but I know to keep a healthy distance and protect myself, or walk away if I need. I cannot be helpful to others if I don’t help myself first.

  10. Lori says:

    Without a doubt the desire to heal or fix but that’s every Codependent’s Achilles. And I wonder why I keep “running into” wounded people dysfunctional people. Oh I’m not “running into “ anyone. I’ve realized that I seek these people out. It’s not happening by chance. I’m unconsciously looking for these people. They aren’t hard to find. They are everywhere. The difference is healthy people don’t get wrapped up with then time and time again. A codependent does because these people seem familiar and comfortable.

  11. Chihuahuamum says:

    I chose honesty, love devotee and infidelity.
    My emotional thinking and areas within myself ive not dealt with have highjacked who i am in so many ways.
    I never thought id be who i am in regards to my honesty bc i am a very honest person yet have been very dishonest within my marriage. I feel ongoing guilt and feel a lot of shame and altho the relationship is more becoming a friendship there is still the fact weve shared intimacy. It goes against everything i believe in. Having witnessed infidelity with my parents i always vowed never to do so. The fact is nothings black and white in life. Ive quickly learned to not judge people even…narcissists. i try not to judge but rather understand but sometimes understanding isnt fully possible either.
    I take full responsibility for my choices. I can see where they stem from being in a marriage with someone not as compatible in areas but very compatible in others. Having codependancy traits and fearing certain things. I admire the ones who have the strength and courage to do whats right and to face their fears and travel the road alone. Great admiration and respect for so many on here and out there who have done so.
    At one time i wouldve said love devotee when all was fairytales and true love but that is no longer the case and truth be told i much prefer it this way than have my head in the clouds and blind. It may sound cynical but i do think you can find true love but not have it blinded by unrealistic expectation or built up notions of what it “should” be. I realise my narc is not at all what i had him built up in my mind but ive also changed as well. Hes no longer my knight and shining armour but rather someone i latched onto who had similiar needs but coming from different reasons.
    My emotional thinking has evolved over the years and is more from a place of part codependancy and part genuinely enjoying this person in my life aside from their npd and not wanting to lose that. On the same token i want to rebuild my marriage and do whats right but the two are not possible together.

    1. Fool Me 1 Time says:

      Chihuahuamum what a beautiful soul you have. What you have just written has touched me very deeply. In fact the first paragraph I could have written myself. You have always been one on here that has written intelligently and logically. I have always enjoyed your comments. As far as respect goes, you have always had mine. Thank you for sharing this us.

    2. Lori says:

      I used to think I genuinely enjoyed the Narc, and then I think did I really? Probably not. I enjoyed a person who was not real. He was completely made up to seduce me. The real him is was the anger rage and nastiness I’ve seem. The rest was a mask which wasn’t him at all

      1. Supernova DE says:

        I agree with this completely. I mean of course we enjoy “who they are” during GP. But…I often wonder if I could remember those convos clearly from back then, would I see backhanded compliments and veiled barbs? Yes, I probably would, I was just too high on ET to notice them then.
        If Lessers give a bronze period, then MRNs give a slightly better silver one. If you look closely, they’re still jerks and the fakeness that cloaks them is obvious.

        1. Lori says:

          I have had both a mid ranger and a lesser. The mid ranger very seductive and romantic. He could speak of and fake emotions even tears easily. The lesser could not. It was very much a struggle for him even during seduction but he forced hinsekd to do it to seal the deal. It is true that the Lesser golden period is just about keeping the rage at bay

          I often think I’m never gonna get over this shit and to some extent I think you never do. I think what happens is with enough time of no contact you just begin to forget them and after time even a reminder has less effect but I don’t think you get offed what they did

          1. Supernova DE says:

            What were their cadres? Somatic?
            The cerebral MMRN could do some emotions, and fake some attachment to me, and certainly faked sexual desire in the beginning.
            The somatic mid ranger I encountered was sooo much better at this, much more classically charming etc.

          2. Lori says:

            The mid rangers are so much more charming. My Lesser was not charming. He was-brut that I just mid took for sexy masculinity

    3. Chihuahuamum says:

      Fool me 1 time…ty so much for reaching out your comment really touched me deeply 💓 even tho ive never met you or others here i feel a sense of closeness bc we all share so much in one way or another. I also enjoy your posts very much and wish you the best!!

    4. Abe Moline says:

      “sometimes understanding isnt fully possible either.”

      So much power in these words. Once you get this, and not only get this, but also accept it with all your heart, then it just makes you see the world completely differently. There are simply things which happen for no reason, or there are reasons but we’ll never find out, or we’ll never be able to validate their truth. Sometimes there are reasons, we know them, but still can’t comprehend them.

      Every little step of No Contact is getting back power and control over your own being and consciousness. Avoid physical contact – bam, your self esteem grows! Block messaging, calls – wow, wonderful feeling! No longer stalk online – cool, who’s now the master of her/his own will?
      Accept there are things you don’t and will never understand… this is advanced shit already. Apply everywhere (not only narcs) and you’re a different person!

      Just try No Contact. You might get to enjoy it greatly. Just try! 🙂

  12. Amanda says:

    I find myself going over and over conversations and questioning my choice of words. “Did I unwittingly say something to offend him?”… rereading texts and rechecking facts… it’s pure madness. Crazy making. He’s slowly turning me into the “crazy person” he portrays me as when he’s gaslighting.

    1. SMH says:

      Amanda, Mine turned me into such a crazy person that I scared him at one point. Seriously. He told me this. It was difficult to sort out because indeed I CAN be crazy – I do crazy really well. But post escape I made clear that it was his doing, his fault, his responsibility, and that I had done nothing wrong. Nada. Neither have you.

    2. amanda SNapchat says:

      escape. you are not crazy. you are not that person

  13. Sniglet says:

    Mine would be honesty with one narc. He wanted to see my contacts on my phone which I showed him bc he promised he would reveal his phone contacts. After showing mine he didn’t show me his. He was dishonest. Then he used the names of the contacts against me saying he couldn’t believe I was in contact with x y z – as if he was jealous – which I think was an act conducive to an argue. Since I thought it was all a bs reason for an argument I decided within minutes to show him my ex’s very recent emails and so I could enjoy some real jealousy. The argument stopped and he gave me the silent treatment – which I didn’t give a shit about.

  14. Bibi says:

    My Lesser father made me feel incredible guilt when I had to move away with my mom and stepdad. I remember being overwhelmed with this guilt and he made sure I felt it. I fell into a deep depression as a 12 yr old.

    Instead of saying, ‘Everything will be ok and nothing will change.’ He said, ‘Everything is going to be different now.’

    When I had to move he said to my best friend, ‘I guess Bibi doesn’t love us anymore.’

    Who does that to a young child? Then after I moved he mailed me a cassette tape of him talking and laughing with my friends–basically a ‘you’re not here so we’re having a party anyway.’

    It was this emotional torment which eventually drove me away and I refused to speak to him throughout most of high school because he always made me feel so lousy afterwards.

    Then when I look back on what he did to my mom, I can’t forgive him for that. If you want to drive away your child, this is what you do.

    1. SMH says:

      Bibi, That’s horrible. Do you have a relationship with him now? How do you manage that? A shitty narc parent is way more damaging than a shitty narc lover. After all, for many of us, a parent gets the whole thing rolling.

      1. Bibi says:

        No, SMH, I do not have any relationship with him. I cut contact essentially in the mid 90s. Funny how I just knew instinctively that I had to do it.

        It is sad in how he managed to drive so many away. I am thinking of creating a ‘Letter to the Narc’ about him for the site, but it will likely take me a while to ponder it over, as it brings up old feelings.

        My dad’s side of the family was very messed up. I don’t have any contact with any of them.

        1. SMH says:

          Bibi, It’s weird – neither of my parents ever did anything that low but I do see a sadistic streak in your father that I recognize from my mother (also a narc) – a need to humiliate, especially when I was young like that. My rebellion started when I was 12.

          I don’t know if a Letter to the N will help you to heal but maybe the feedback will – with other people here telling you their stories. At least you will know that you are not alone.

  15. Alexissmith2016 says:

    Desire to heal and love devotee.

    But truth seeking to the nth degree! To the point where I need to know absolutely everything there is to know. But I never asked questions. I don’t know why? Maybe because I somehow knew I wouldn’t get the truth and that even if they were capable of telling the truth, perhaps I sensed they did not know what the truth was themselves. It’s so difficult to recall how I felt before all of this knowledge became available. Because it’s almost as though nothing can really hurt anymore, all of their behaviour can be explained away.

    But with this site, I can seek every answer I have no need or desire at all to seek any answers from them because the answers are all here.

    HG, I’m so looking forward to reading some new articles.

  16. Narc noob says:

    Honesty, Pride, Truth seeker, Compassion, and Justice (not in that order, but all these)

    Do the above ET traits selected correlate somehow with the type of empath cadre, HG? Meaning, one school might lean more toward love devotee rather than justice. Hmm, no, perhaps that’s my magical thinking – now I hear myself think. 😂

    1. HG Tudor says:


      1. Narc noob says:

        Excellent! Thanks for your feedback. Ok I’m more intrigued now. Do I find this information in Sitting Target?

        My question earlier “Do the above ET traits selected correlate somehow with the type of empath cadre” which you answered “correct”.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you for repeating the question.

          No, I have not written about it.

          1. Narc noob says:

            HG, I wonder why my NN picture has changed? I liked the other one above better.

            Have you written about the correlation with empath traits to empath cadre, yet?

            Can you reveal, for example, what your last few victim, SME top 3 traits are?

  17. Sweetest Perfection says:

    Love devotee, love devotee. I must be the Madame Bovary of this century.

    1. Bibi says:

      Love the literary reference. Literature is filled with women killing themselves or suffering endlessly or handing over their happiness on account of narc men.

      Anna Karenina
      Miss Julie

      We need to be more Nora from A Doll’s House–that is, after her realization.

      1. Sweetest Perfection says:

        Bibi, true. But I feel a little bit more like Molly Bloom these days…

      2. SMH says:

        Bibi, I just attended a special screening of the 1973 film of A Doll’s House. I had never seen in before. Interesting how feminist Ibsen was even back in the late 19th century. Nora is an inspiring character.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          An interesting play/film and anything with Anthony Hopkins is worth watching just for him anyway.

          1. Alexissmith2016 says:

            I’m intrigued, what is it you like about AH?

          2. HG Tudor says:

            The pauses.

          3. Fool Me 1 Time says:

            HG he is a wonderful actor and there is something about him that is very drawing to me.

          4. NarcAngel says:

            I adore AH. I feel he elevates everything he’s in. In Silence Of The Lambs I commented that I didn’t see what was wrong with him and I quite liked his demeanor (as in the character Lecter) to the horror of my company. Then when he took the guards face off they looked at me and I offered: Well THAT was a bit unfortunate lol.

          5. Bibi says:

            My fave AH performance is as Oliver Stone’s Nixon. The film is quite Shakespearean in how it portrays tragedy in the classic sense–the idea of a great man falling from grace.

            Not into his Hannibal character, however.

          6. Alexissmith2016 says:

            I feel like one of the good doctors now but I’ll ask anyway.

            What is it you like about the pauses HG?

          7. HG Tudor says:

            The power.

          8. Fool Me 1 Time says:

            But of course!

          9. SMH says:

            Absolutely. Claire would agree!

          10. Chihuahuamum says:

            I adore anthony hopkins! Love him in so many movies. Silence of the lambs, hannibal, howards end, another which he never married and is in a relationship with a woman who dies of cancer(cant remember title but good), legends of the fall. Hes actually in real life a very quiet reclusive sort and very choosey which roles he accepts. Hes the type of actor who is super talented and doesnt get cornered into one type of role. He can play a psycho in one role and a completely opposite type of character in another.

          11. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Legends of the Fall. Drool. And not precisely because of Sir Anthony Hopkins…

          12. HG Tudor says:

            Yes, Julia Ormond looked inviting.

          13. Sweetest Perfection says:

            HG, you can keep her. I will go with that sweet guy with the long hair, what was his name …???

          14. Claire says:

            He’s a long standing AA member. I have his AA lead on audio. ( totally against AA rules)—long story. My friend sent it to me years ago.

          15. Chihuahuamum says:

            Shadowlands was the AH movie i was thinking of. A tearjerker so grab your kleenex box!

          16. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dear Mr Tudor,
            We just watched him in “The Human Stain” on Netflix …. (about racism and political correctness )….not big on Nicole Kidman
            Did you know he composed his own waltz….”And the waltz goes on”
            Another “extraordinary” Welshman …. haha
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

        2. Bibi says:

          It is interesting to see how ahead of his time he was. Ibsen was the empath and Strindberg the narcissist.

          1. SMH says:

            Yes, and how little progress we have made.

        3. Alexissmith2016 says:

          The power – makes sense.

          Is AH one too?

          1. HG Tudor says:


          2. alexissmith2016 says:


    2. Saskia says:

      Do you regard Madame Bovary as a love devotee in the sense of being the embodiment of a ‚love conquers all‘ narrative? Or, as HG puts it, ‚taking the rough with the smooth’? Your reference caught my interest because I realised that my perception of her character (traits) and the unfolding narrative has shifted over the years, hence my interest in your opinion if you care to share.

  18. lisk says:

    “Truthseeker” still seems to rank number one as of this writing.

    I wonder if this top ranking has anything to do with the fact that many of us grew up in homes where we were lied to or where things were better left unsaid–where we had to rely on our senses (hence our “sensitivity”) and our intuition. We saw and heard and smelled the truth but could not speak it. And often the truth was not validated by anyone else.

    So many of us have lived in a world of fuzziness. We could not stand it. We still cannot stand it. We want to get to the bottom of things so that we can control the chaos of our situations and surroundings, so that we can “make sense” of it all. And that’s why we need and want and seek the truth.

    And that’s why end up here with HG. His truth helps us. He validates. He verifies. He clarifies. He makes sense of it all.

    And we say, “FINALLY!”

    P.S. Most likely, narcs grew up in these same homes with us, for the most part. Their adaptation to “fuzziness” clearly involves a different take on getting control of the chaos.

    1. Supernova DE says:

      I love what you have written here, it resonates deeply with me! In my house growing up we did not talk about emotions, you weren’t really allowed to have them (unless they were positive and reflected well on my parents).

      The fuzziness you describe can be a big hurdle, and I have felt this in my life. Each time I discover another layer of WHY I am the way I am (ie. I have attachment issues and can see why based on how my mother treated me, or I figure out another narc/co-d dynamic in my family or early relationships etc) it gives me so much peace.

      I’m not crazy, I’m not deficient, there are others like me, these things have a name I can attach to them, and I am not alone.

      1. Lori says:

        Do you think your Codeoendent

        1. Supernova DE says:

          I’m still not sure. For the purposes of here and the way HG designates a co-d, no I don’t think that I am. I have my own identity, I don’t need someone else to show me who I am etc.

          I do, however, have some co-d type behavior patterns. Perhaps these are learned behaviors from my mother though? I don’t know. Ultimately, it doesn’t matter to me as long as I am improving myself.

          Why do you ask?

          1. Lori says:

            Just curious. Some of the things you have written indicate sons tendencies and fact that you have a series of these dynamics I. Your family would certainly predispose you for that. The one fhu g that stood out to me was your sense of boredom. That is something I struggle with s great deal. So if resonated with. Some of the “boredom” I must admit is emptiness. I do have a sense of emptiness that I tend to full with with people and things that are bad for but I also do if with thjngs that are good for me such as working out but I tend to over do things. I lack balance with some things and I realize I do then n an attemot to film the emptiness. When the narc (discarded or shelved or whatever the case may be) me I felt a deep emptiness in fact I still feel it

            I’m not suggesting you are codependent. Only a professional can determine that. I’ve just seen some similarities in our behaviors and I am a diagnosed Codependent

          2. Supernova DE says:

            I have often thought you and I are quite alike. I personally think co-dependency is a very fluid murky set of characteristics and behaviors in all but the most extreme of cases (which I think is what HG describes in CHAINED. Not knowing who they are unless they are giving to someone, need to borrow the façade/construct, can’t make decisions, etc.)
            Otherwise, I think co-dependency is a set of behavioral and emotional patterns. I think they can come and go, and are on a scale of severity. I think it would be very difficult for a mental health professional to “diagnose” codependency vs identifying a standard empath who has been ground down by long periods of narc abuse. Because over time, we show our narc traits more and fall deeper into the ET rabbit hole. This state of affairs could very easily come off as co-dependency when it isn’t. In fact, I think ANY EMPATH who has been with a narc for a long period and goes to a therapist distressed is likely to be labeled co-dependent.
            But again, I think it is just a word, not a negative label. We all have different hurdles to overcome to beat our addictions to narcs.

            Have you done empath detector with HG? I’d be very curious his opinion of you vs what therapists have told you.

    2. alexissmith2016 says:

      I agree with everything you’ve said Lisk.There was no love in my house. My father through no fault of his own as in he waasn’t a cluster B but there were other problems.

      But also, its possibly a little skewed because those of us who are truthseekers end up searching for information and hopefully here. We are compelled to know more than other empaths who don’t seek it out..

      II have a dear friend who has clearly been entangled with an N. I did try and explain to him once (this was early on, soon after I’d worked it out). He said he literally did not want to know.

      Since then I’ve learned to support people differently, some of them do end up here too.

      But I guess if you’re actively searching for answers. It makes sense that truth seeking is going to be a very strong trait for those of us on this site.

  19. Twisted Heart says:

    I still find myself wanting to know if any of it was real to him and therefore he had to reject it (truth seeker?) I also have this need to let him know that I understand and accept him, not as a partner but as a human being and that his existence matters.(Compassion/Tolerance) Then there’s hope that if he had some insight he could learn to manage it so people stop getting hurt.
    And the sex of course😔

  20. Veronique Jones says:

    Abandonment issues I look for the good in every one I believe that they can heal and change I never stop loving someone I look for signs of the person I fell for I convinced myself that they love me feeling something is better than not even if it is painful

    1. Oracle says:

      I am exactly the same but trying to stop that cycle with my narc. It’s very hard.

      1. Abe Moline says:

        I went through Love devotee at first (and until late in the relationship), then Truthseeker, trying to prove I was right in various matters while also trying to accept her point of view. Needless to say, she was always right, my opinion never mattered. After being half disengaged, half escaping, I got Jealous with her new (actually also previous) IPSS. Now I got rid of this feeling, I only have to deal with my own Pride – I guess frustration of having to stay GOSO while I think I’m good enough to face her and deal with her is some sort of pride… Luckily, I am aware I’m not that good yet (if ever) it’s just ET, and I’m determined to stay away. When I get rid of Pride, I’ll be healed I guess, and capable of complete indifference towards her, which what I set for myself as ultimate goal in this affair.

        I’ve made big steps, this blog was invaluable, and staying out is definitely fastest route! But not there yet…

        Sometimes I think… are we trading one addiction (of narc/s) for another (of this blog and community)? Sometimes I just want to be able at some point to GOSO from both, while keeping my confidence and happiness… 🙂

        1. SMH says:

          Abe Moline, I used to feel that way about the blog too – that it was just a substition. But now I can pretty much come and go without thinking about it too much – it’s not a compulsion anymore. It’s just something I do to relax and because I like the people I interact with on here. I am just saying that you shouldn’t worry about it. Use it if you need it and when you don’t need it anymore, you won’t have trouble leaving or dipping in and out.

        2. NarcAngel says:

          Abe Moline
          I’ve mentioned previous that this blog can be considered Narc Methadone. If it helps, think of it as trading one addiction for one that will eventually wean you free. Baby steps, and this is a great place to take your first steps. The best guidance from HG and many hands to catch you if you stumble.

          1. Claire says:

            Excellent analogy. I need a lot of Methadone. I was in a room of seemingly normal humans tonight and kept thinking, “How in the world do these people have sex?” Seriously. Gross. Disappointingly I think.

          2. I agree with your analogy NA. I do come on here regularly (very regularly) and at first it was like methadone for me too.

            Now I still read obsessively, yes. But, before I found out about narcland, I read obsessively only about one other subject matter and for many, many years. Prior to that it was a different one.

            I think I get hyperfocussed and need to learn everything there is to know about something I’m interested in. But for many people, yes it will be a case of weaning themselves off the site.

            HG has such a breadth of knowledge about many things which I previously had no interest in. But being able to apply some of those other day to day/ issues to narcissism has also helped broaden my general knowledge base too.

            I see it as a healthy obsession. No different than if you practiced medicine or wanted to become a world class athlete. I don’t see myself in that league by any means. But I very much enjoy the learning which takes place. And it has massively helped me manage those people around me, I don’t have their natural manipulation skills, but applied knowledge helps hugely.

            It is also a great place for others to gain support from those who truly understand. Something I have very much valued.

          3. NarcAngel says:

            An excellent summary. HG is unrivalled in creating a site that is so much more than just a blog about narcissism. It not only provides the very best in education on the subject, but also fosters a sense of community and encourages personal development in many ways through the exchanges of all those within it. You may come for the information, answers, and solutions, which are abundantly provided, but many end up staying because there is so much more.

          4. nunya biz says:

            At least since I have arrived I have given up alcohol and coffee.

        3. Oracle says:

          well i think the blog is a better addiction at least. Your story sounds very much like mine, but i find many here that share very similiar stories. I guess that is the point. 🙂 I am glad your finding your way.

        4. Kiki says:


          It is okay to be a bit addicted here for awhile .The only problem I could see is if you don’t go complete No Contact with the narc whilst reading the blog.


          1. Oracle says:

            I hope i get the courage. Baby steps for me. I’m a coward and weak. However, each day i improve with the peers i have here and reading mr. Tudors entries. I’m finding out that i might be crazy but I’m not the narc for starters. Now it’s financial….and the biggest pull is a child we shared. He’s gone now which bonded us tighter. Suicide is a tricky animal to greive let alone while dealing with a narc. I’m learning to think different. A overhaul if you will. I’ll get there. Are you doing well with no contact? Was it scary? Hard?

          2. SMH says:

            Oracle, Very sorry about your child. That is devastating.

  21. mommypino says:

    I forgot to add that the truthseeker really got me engaging in wars because of the provocative and untrue things that they have said about me. It also offended my sense of pride.

    1. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

      mommypino. I may have been truth seeker, but I was already on this site before much of that was needed. HG already said, to not bother, so to speak. One of my better timings in life.

  22. mommypino says:

    With my stepdaughters, the terrible cycle started with my sense of decency: wanting to have a harmonious relationship with the daughters of my husband and be a positive presence. Then they have rejected that from the beginning with rudeness which I have tolerated because I thought that they are having a hard time accepting it because of our age gap so I was as understanding and turned the other cheek several times in the beginning. Also because my husband told me that their mom has been toxic to them so when they realize that I am not a threat and get to know me they will eventually turn around (wanting to fix and heal). A few months more, after our first out of state vacation together, their rudeness exacerbated into crossing my boundaries like reading my cellphone (I only had a flip phone at that time) and saying provocative comments under the guise of just being honest so I started fighting back but in more subtle and manipulative ways. I still avoided doing anything that I cannot take back so my fighting back were more just standing my ground. Through these subtle wars and efforts to stand my ground and demand for respect, there was a lot of competition in almost everything and so my jealousy and pride played a role with the way I kept engaging with them. However, they became even worse so the subtlety in my approach was gone and it became a war between us (because I wanted justice so I fought back really hard) where my husband who was just my boyfriend then (the true victim) was caught in the middle and was the one who was really exhausted from all of us. Then my guilt and compassion because of how we all made my husband feel made me reconcile with the two stepdaughters and my honesty made me believe that since I am sincere in turning a new leaf, they will be too. Then the cycle continues again with decency where I did things for them in the efforts to improve our relationship such as tutoring to pass the DMV test, tutoring Economics that she was failing so she can graduate high school, helping her with the beauty pageant and even buying the gown that she wanted because it was more expensive than what her dad was willing to pay, driving her around because the AC of her car is not working, encouraging her when she whines, making the decorations for the bridal and baby showers, being their photographer when they have events, etc. And all of these happened within the multiple cycles of my toxic engagement with them. It was similar with my MRE sister.

    1. Joanne says:

      This is so much to take on. You must really love your husband to be able to work through all of these things with your stepdaughters. Do you think these issues also may have weakened your defenses when it came to the handyman?

      1. mommypino says:

        Hi Joanne, yes, it has contributed a lot to the strain in our marriage that made me even more vulnerable. One reason that I think I might have at least partial co-D in me is because after all of this toxic dynamic with my stepdaughters that lasted for a little bit over ten years before the handyman showed up, I was not deeply happy but I was also just ok with it and thought that it’s just part of life bthat I have to deal with. It was like the handyman shook the glitter globe that is my life and woke me up to expect more from my marriage and my husband. I was trying my best to not connect with the handyman because I was trying to do the right thing. It was the weirdest experience because it was like my heart and all of my empathy was completely taken by the handyman from my husband and I was functioning only in cognitive empathy towards my husband and clinging hard with that cognitive empathy to stop myself from trying to contact the handyman after he left and admitting to him that actually I did fell for him but I cannot because I’m married. I guess that was the truthseeker and honesty driving me to want to do that admission to the handyman as well. But I knew (through only cognitive empathy for my husband) that the mere admittance to him of that would be a betrayal against my husband so I prevented myself from doing that even though I wanted it so badly like a vampire craving for blood. It really felt as if that guy stole my heart so completely and so fast. I was having a hard time falling in love with my husband again on my own efforts so I shook our own marriage up, told him that I’m not happy and told him of all of my resentments and threatened divorce. He of course didn’t want it and promised to do better and so far he was able to win my heart again. That was my indirect way of asking my husband for help in taking back my heart from the handyman. I told my husband about the the things that the handyman did and I was about to tell him that I had a big crush on the handyman but my husband has cut me off and it gave me a feeling that he didn’t want to hear that from me. When the handyman left, my husband could tell that something was going on inside me because I was acting strange and not eating normally.

        1. mommypino says:

          Also Joanne, now that I am out of the fog completely, I now find it creepy that the handyman was actually observing my interactions with my husband and then wears this smirk. He was observing everything.

          1. Joanne says:

            The strange thing to me, is that in the moment, I would probably find that flattering. Ugh. But in retrospect, creepy for sure. I guess when someone has an agenda they are on constant reconnaissance.

        2. Joanne says:

          I can relate to this on an unreal level…. I think we may have touched on this in a different comment thread some time ago, on how our hearts seem to be redirected toward the narc, even though we know they are so unworthy. And despite our attempts to reclaim them and direct them where they need to go, it seems almost impossible. I like your glitter globe analogy. It sounds like your husband needed a relationship wake up call and it’s fortunate you saw it as that, rather than give in to the escape that the handyman offered (the way I did 🙁 ) I also give you a lot of credit for your honesty. Telling your husband about your feelings for the handyman gave him the opportunity to really respond appropriately, knowing the gravity of the situation (potential infidelity, divorce etc). Thereby also saving you from contacting the handyman! I’m glad you were able to reclaim and redirect your heart. And thank God for cognitive empathy when all else fails.

          In my case, there was really nothing wrong in my relationship. We were a little disconnected just by way of work travel, kids, just life in general. I was tired (thus vulnerable) at the time the narc made his move but I can’t even blame it on relationship issues. I have managed to redirect my heart and empathy back to my husband now but I would be lying if I said I didn’t feel some tugging at times, but more from an intimacy standpoint (aka still fantasize about the narc). And this makes zero sense considering my actual and few intimate moments with him were weird. I think that part is dictated by my pride in wanting him to keep wanting me.

          1. mommypino says:

            “I think that part is dictated by my pride in wanting him to keep wanting me.”

            I think that’s it Joanne, it’s not really that they are all that attractive or wonderful, it’s the feeling that they made us feel that we long for. When the narc acted like we were the most irresistible woman that he has ever laid eyes upon, even though creepy, it was amazingly flattering and maybe I should add the trait vanity because it definitely fed into that vanity that I have. And that E.T. really distorts reality. I have been describing the handyman here as extremely handsome like an angel and the most handsome American I have ever seen. Well out of curiosity I looked at his Facebook a few days ago which I haven’t done for so many months and when I looked at his picture, yeah he is attractive, but I have definitely seen other more handsome men here in the US. It’s just that I was never interested in them. But he’s definitely not all that. Not nearly as much as what my E.T. made him to be in my mind.

            I’m so happy that we both healed. I feel that we are almost batchmates here at the blog because I was just a newbie here when I saw your first post. I remember the first post from you that I saw and you have definitely come a long way. I’m so happy for you and so thankful that you got help here.

          2. Joanne says:

            Exactly! The way they made us *feel* is what made them so special. And so much of that was driven by ET, and the desire itself to feel it. The person I built him up to be in my mind was so much better than the real him. And I agree, he is definitely cute, but by no means drop dead gorgeous or anything out of the ordinary. He’s rather average but again, that ET just has a way of magnifying all of the good while minimizing the bad. Also in my case, he was the boy that all the girls liked in school. He was always the cutest, and he knew that. Now that I think of it, he was practically triangulating us all at varying times in the 2nd grade! Meeting up with him months ago (decades later) I initially felt a mix of disappointment and relief that he seemed so average. His aging face and greying hair, his plain, boring style of clothing. I was relieved at first that he wasn’t such a show-stopper that I’d fall for him, but by the end of this meeting he became the most interesting, intriguing, attractive man I’d laid eyes on in a long time, and it only grew from there. ET be damned…..

            I’m so grateful to be in your company and that of the other women in here – especially those who’ve had a similar situation with a narc infiltrating their marriage. It feels so good to exchange stories and know that I’m not alone or crazy. Thank you for sharing and allowing me to do the same 😘😘

        3. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

          mommypino: I think some people can stir us up. The mid ranger is much younger than I am. So he stirred up my maternal instincts also, and he did it instinctively and in a calculating manner. Saying he did not feel well or was hungry or whatever. Or he would sulk. He knew I like dance, so he would dance around me when no one would see him and play his music since he knew I liked music, but without a preference. He was always playing a variety of different music. Plus, he had a nice body, and would stretch and all that when he talked to me. And sprawl around. Why? I have no idea why he did it. He had long eyelashes as he stared at me when talking.. He forced me to keep noticing him, when I was not even trying to. He wore me down after about a year. He liked sports and played basketball and he was tall, about six feet 2 or so, in his shoes. He has a masculine voice. He just never quit with me. And he did all this before people and they could not tell. Finally, he told me that I loved him. And I thought, okay, I love him, He hypnotized me. And then I started to text him syrupy stuff when I went out drinking. I crossed the line, and could not think of any other man. I could see how he reacted whenever I came into a room. He was happy. One time his DLS was at the job, and I walked into the room and she became upset, because she could see the same thing that I see. He would light up. He had a few tells. So, I could see that I had an effect on him. And his construct, whenever I was around was great. People even told me that he acted like a different whenever I was around. Even his lieutenants did not like when I was out, and they had to deal with him without me. He was snide with them when I was not around. They would say, he is grumpy when you are out. It is all so bad. I gave 3 years of myself as a NIPSS. So, I did not even have the intimacy you all loved so much, that I hear about on here. all the time I finally asked myself, what am I doing???? I start feeling ill, without being sick. Unbelievable.

          1. mommypino says:

            Hi PrincessSuperEmpath, I can totally understand you because I never had a golden intimacy from the narc either and yet I got so obsessed with him. If it was that difficult for me to get over him despite not having that amazing intimacy that Somatics are famous for, I would have totally doomed if I did. Sometimes I wonder if my husband think or thought that something happened between me and the narc handyman. I have a feeling that if I did have intimacy with the narc my husband would still forgive me. A part of me wanted to clarify to him that it was just a crush and I was just overreacting in some weird way but when I tried to tell him that I had a crush on the handyman he evaded it like he didn’t want to hear it. But I think that now that I have moved on my husband has moved on as well and is seriously trying to make our marriage stronger. I think that you and I have a propensity to be attracted to narcs. Empaths tend to. It’s really fortunate for us that we have HG to arm us with knowledge about that and how to identify narcissists.

          2. SMH says:

            Interesting, PSE. Really made me think, especially about work narc, for whom I seem to be NIPSS and with whose DLS I might have also had an encounter. She looked me right in the eye and smiled, even though I had no idea who she was (but was watching her of course because that’s what I do). Your warning is to not hand your own magnetism/light over to some witless performance artist who sucks it all out so he can have it for himself.

    2. Claire says:

      Oh gosh, you went above and beyond and then some.. I relate though—doing too much hoping for a positive outcome and it was never to be a positive outcome.

      1. mommypino says:

        If I had only known that there are certain people with zero or minimal feelings of empathy, love and remorse I wouldn’t have wasted all of those time on them. I could have learned a new language or how to make quilts with that time instead! I didn’t know what I was dealing with.

        1. Claire says:

          I know! I would not go as far as quilt making but yes there are better pursuits! I did pick up some Spanish from a Columbian narcissist I dated. I think he got kicked out of Columbia to be honest and that is not a joke.

          1. mommypino says:

            Lol we should chat in Spanish to practice some day. I know a little bit of Spanish. My MRE sister used to correct my English grammar in a very condescending way, (not in a constructive way that HG sometimes corrects grammar here) and it was one of her ways to show superiority over me. She was learning Spanish because she was going to work in Ecuador so I got Rosetta Stone to learn Spanish and every time she mispronounced a word in Spanish I corrected her in a similar manner that she corrected me in English. She was clearly annoyed and stopped showing off her Spanish to us. 😁

          2. NarcAngel says:

            Surely Babbel would be more appropriate for a Narc than Rosetta Stone?

          3. mommypino says:

            Lol they sure love to Babbel. 😂

          4. Claire says:

            Funny how condescending narcissists are of grammar. My dad was very rude to my sister -in-laws Tagalog inspired English. Frankly, he was a total pompous ass. I just can’t believe how normal it seemed.. I recall knowing he was rude but it never occurred to me as nutball behavior. I was acclimated to it. The Spanish was fun for awhile. He was delicious but a disaster. I am essentially shaking my head in remembrance.

  23. lisk says:

    3 for me: Truthseeker, Jealousy, Guilt

    I would have never thought that Guilt would be a *thing* for me. He really set me up well for that one in the beginning, telling me his woe-is-me stories about how, since his divorce, the women that he had been dating would leave him after two or three months, and he had know idea why, especially since he was such a nice guy. “Yes, it seems that the nicer I am to women, the sooner they leave me.”

    “Oh!,” I thought to myself along these lines: “I’m not going to leave him. I’m going to allow him to be nice to me, and I will withstand the nice guy. I’m going to show that he is worthy of long-term love and that I am capable of giving it. I will stand by him.”

    What a bunch of horseshit.

    1. lisk says:

      . . . in other words, if ever I had an inkling of being turned off or wanting to leave him, i felt too guilty to leave because of the promise I made to myself to stick with him through thick and thin, etc.

      1. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

        Lisk. Contracts are often deemed unenforceable, when fraud, hidden substantive data, and extreme complexity, etc. is involved, beyond what a reasonable person could or would anticipate. You promised something that was beyond your understanding and capacity to fulfill. It happens. Thus, The Tudorites have come to a decision: The Court of the Excellency of HG Tudor has settled upon a unanimous verdict: [~~~~~ALL RISE! Lisk: Your promise to yourself has been deemed Null And Void. Go forth and seize the power. Advisory: This court advises you to refrain, or at least to be very wary of making promises to yourself and to others in the future. So be it. You are free to go, Lisk. This court is adjourned. Jury Dimissed.~~~~~~~]

        1. Narc noob says:

          Nicely written PSE, I concur!

          1. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            Narc noob: PSE approves.

    2. Oracle says:

      Ii sk on i felt the guilt you speak of in the 1st couple of years. When i had more self esteem. Now his reality has distorted mine so much that sometimes i start to believe that i am a horrible person and he is a great guy. I think he is right. I’m imagining it. He isn’t doing anything wrong. So now i feel guilt but because i feel bad he has to put up with me so i strive to be a better partner and stay believing i owe it to him.

  24. Oracle says:

    What would fear be classified under. I was once the director of a nation wide company. We lost our boy and i declined. I allowed the gradual progression of controlling everything. I had checked out and frankly for a time didn’t want to deal with reality. He owns a company that i help him run. But he made sure everything is in his name. Nothing in mine. He has all the cars in his name everything. I am afraid. I have gotten myself in this mess now i am afraid to walk away. How will i support myself? Where will i live. Am i even capable of taking care of myself anymore? Pathetic i know but the truth. You add crippling PTSD that has resulted in agoraphobia AND claustrophobia, (i know. Figure that one out but it’s true) which he triggers often knowingly, I’m a ball of nothing but scared shitless. The foul language applied here. Apologies.
    The others that applied to me were guilt, truth seeker, (which is maddening), strong moral compass, compassion, guilt, love devotee, desire to fix.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Those fears would arise from the corruption of Pride and Decency.

  25. empath007 says:

    BEFORE I knew what he was.. Truth seeker, sex, love devotee and Pride were my four biggest contributors to going back. Our final meeting before I went no contact, he admitted to me what he was…. And with that… I received what I had wanted for so long, the Truth.

    I feel a lot of resolution having had the truth be said from his own mouth. he later denied it, but it was too late I had already dug deep in research.

    We have many friends in common and are both invited to a lot of the same events, I have been avoiding them because I feel it is too soon to run into him, but also do not want to stop my own social life just because of him… So maybe the anxiety that we will likely see each other again one day sooner then later keeps me a bit anxious and contributes to emotional thinking that is still occurring regularly.

  26. Bekah B says:

    Truthseeker; The desire to heal and fix; Compassion; Honesty; Pride..

  27. jessrnny says:

    Truth seeker is the need to know? Then jealous/ pride for sure. Stranger mode is insulting.. How can they not want to be good to me…. I’m so fabulous.

  28. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

    Dearest HG: These are strange days to be Love Devotees. Sort, of like having the wrong emotionally needs for the countries and decades that one is living in. HG: In some ways, you are more equipped for this modernity of `western civilization` than many. Disclaimer: Buyers/Believers of Love: BEWARE!. Check over product carefully. No Refunds or Exchanges. No guarantees offered. No warranties. No insurance policies accepted. No coupons issued to discount your investment. Engage at your own risk: No satisfaction implied. Product presented: As Is. And suspect. If you encounter any problems with the product, understand that there is no number to call and there is no address to write, and there is no social media platform and no customer service representatives for you to contact. You Are On Your Own. There is not receipt. Even This message will now be disconnected in 5 seconds…. Good Bye.

  29. Joanne says:

    I chose every one of these with the exception of jealousy. I am not jealous of his life, or anything he has. I know that my life and what I have are far superior. I am also not jealous of any of his new appliances because I know what they are getting from him. Even if their golden period lasts longer than mine – I know for a fact it will not include romantic dates at trendy restaurants and gifts and trips or anything remotely like that. Those things are not his style anyway. At best they’ll get the love bombing in the form of the constant contact/24 hour texting, flowery words of affection and compliments, awkward intimacy, etc. They can have it.

    1. lisk says:

      “awkward intimacy” How interesting that you mention that, Joanne!

      I used to think my Narc Ex’s “awkward intimacy” was charming and endearing.

      Turns out I tolerated way too much incompetence on the intimacy front because I thought he was cute and awkward and, I guess, in a sense, pitiful.

      How disgusting of me to go for someone who I found pitiful on any level.

      Never goin’ back again.

      1. Joanne says:

        It was charming and endearing to me as well. Of course, we only had a couple encounters. I interpreted it as him being nervous. Silly me. The last encounter being the most awkward, I now realize was completely passionless. At one point he was stroking my hair off my face and while that gesture should have felt soothing and sweet – it seemed manufactured, insincere even then. I now know it was just him acting out a role.

        I’m never goin’ back either!!

        1. Sweetest Perfection says:

          Joanne, mine did the same thing and I felt the same!!! Mine acted quite robotic most of the time, I even remember not understanding the conflicting messages between what he said and his body language.

          1. SMH says:

            SupernovaDE, Joanne, SP and lisk, that is funny to me because the only time MRN was normal was when we were physically close. Not awkward at all. If we could have just stayed in bed all the time, things would have been fine. I don’t feel anything as I am writing this because I barely remember and I’ve been with someone else since him, but that part of our relationship is kind of sacred to me and always will be. It might not have meant anything, but it sure felt like we were made to fit together.

          2. Sweetest Perfection says:

            SMH, so I assume yours didn’t suffer from premature ejaculation?

          3. SMH says:

            lol SP. No way. He had his insecurities but I cannot fault his fuel provision. He functioned quite well as an appliance.

          4. Sweetest Perfection says:

            SMH, lol! That’s a great way to put it. My appliance was broken. Nice to look at, but useless.

          5. SMH says:

            Works for them, SP, why not for us?

          6. Claire says:

            What is it with this premature ejaculation bullshit. Just a worthless of time. Not worth taking off underwear for. I mean that too.

          7. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Taking off underwear? Who said I did have time to do that? Hahahaaaa. Funny if you think that he alerted me from the first day we made out that I’d rather not waste any time trying to give him any pleasure because he preferred to give not to receive (huh?) and that he never came (huh?). Two minutes into foreplay and going going, gone! And then he said, kind of angry: YOU made me come! And then, he kept repeating days after this: this has never happened with anyone. I never come! It was frankly a very weird experience. I have the suspicion he meant to say: I never come with another person, just by watching myself in the mirror because I’m in love with my six-pack. What a weirdo.

          8. Claire says:

            These losers must extend the defense mechanism into the bedroom in regard to performance evaluation. Seems kinda easy to know when I suck at something and when I don’t.. They must really think they are better/do better etc..

          9. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Claire, I know right? A normal dude would feel kind of embarrassed, apologetic even, and try to repeat the performance maybe. He didn’t! He actually thought it was absolutely amazing I made him come and brought it out on several occasions as something miraculous. I didn’t say anything because I was under his spell, but I remember thinking to myself: this is not what he promised in those sexting exchanges! However, it has been a fabulous entertainment conversation with my friends. And with you.

          10. Claire says:

            Sweetest perfection—there is so much fun in criticizing a poor sexual performance with friends. It is indeed fabulous entertainment. I bet your fellow was really proud of himself. I also think men are not nearly as critical as women because the conversations we have are so cut throat.

          11. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Claire, I must say I do this here because the narc deserves it for treating me like a disposable piece of meat, but I don’t usually kiss and tell. It is ironic though that he acts as if he were the super porn star, when the real performance ended in a sad minute and a half.

          12. Claire says:

            Ah do it wherever.. It hilariously funny. I certainly appreciate it. At work the other day we were discussing how often we look at our vaginas in a mirror. My threshold for foul conversation is quite high.

          13. HG Tudor says:

            The troubling fact is Claire you all work in a store which sells mirrors. How’s business?

          14. Claire says:

            Funny story.. A girl I know was exchanging erotic texts with another girl.. The one girl took a picture and sent it—although—a small piece of residual toilet paper was stuck somewhere! We died. There is value in checking the vagina HG. (Also value in double checking pictures) Also, if you don’t wax and you shave instead you have to check and make sure the shave job is perfect in case business is good. Who wants to go down on a girl where there is a stray hair?

          15. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I’m sorry to interfere in this private conversation between you and HG, but as private parts is concerned, NOBODY has ever complained about any level of waxing/shaving/wilderness yet. NOT EVEN the narc. I remember not shaving or waxing on purpose on the first dates to force me to avoid having sex so fast (it may or may not have worked to be honest, depending on the chemistry). I think we are more self-aware than they actually are.

          16. Claire says:

            I’m so glad you are indeed the highlight of the conversation! Nothing like making sure the vagina is well groomed—or not. He was actually into impeccable grooming and we didn’t share a bathroom ever. It was a very sterile arrangement!

          17. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Claire, seriously!? No sex in the shower? But that’s fun!

          18. Supernova DE says:

            Agree!! Also its great for period sex…easy cleanup!

          19. Fool Me 1 Time says:

            Sp, So much fun indeed! 😉

          20. Claire says:

            No—I hate water sex. Always have.

          21. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Claire, I hate water sex if my body is submerged in water for physical effects that I’m not going to describe. But those effects don’t happen if the water is running. Of course, the shower needs to be big enough for two people, otherwise, you take the risk of getting stuck inside and having to call the firefighters to rescue you.

          22. Claire says:

            Haha! I know precisely when my aversion began. In a hotel room a very long time ago—irrelevant story. Nothing traumatic just annoying. I have seen very interesting sexual antics become medical over my years so it can happen. Nothing you aren’t able to google certainly but people can be interesting.

          23. NarcAngel says:

            Re: Shower sex

            Unless he’s going to spray Scrubbing Bubbles out of his ass directly after he sprays out of the front to clean the shower after, and drive me directly to the hairdresser (and pays) he can forget it. On the other hand – if you do engage in it, do not miss out on the opportunity to turn around to him after your done, in full Joker face due to streaming mascara, and say: Why so serious babe?

          24. Fool Me 1 Time says:

            Oh NA you have no idea how much I needed that laugh today! Thank you for always coming through! 😘🙃

          25. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Hahaha! This comment was my “welcome back to America” moment, NA! I guess the whole crew is wondering what I laughed at.

          26. foolme1time says:

            I thought mirrors were your business HG?😝

          27. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Claire, it’s easier to take selfies now.

          28. SMH says:

            Oh god, SP, what a weirdo is right.

          29. Abe Moline says:

            Claire, thank you, never would have guessed about this mirror thing for women 😀… But, on second thought, it probably makes sense… For, as a man, it’s just easier, no need to use an additional device to take a look… Surely using a mirror makes the whole experience more memorable and mentionable… 😀

            On a somewhat more serious note, since you mentioned it, stupid foul jokes were a sort of major attraction for me towards my N, and a big source of fun. Does this also happened in your case?

            HG, if I may, one other question related to this thread – can you please shed some light about female narc (MR) sexual behavior? Specifically, you mentioned in your Narcissist: Seduction book that Ashleigh was very quick to get her multiple (extremely wet) orgasms. Is this just faking or do they actually get them? Just curious… Asking for a friend, of course…

          30. HG Tudor says:

            Some fake, others get them – either way it is still part of the manipulation.

          31. Claire says:

            Ashleigh must have been very naughty. I don’t recall the name from any reading. As far as stupid jokes.. I have actually never talked this way around significant others. Some people actually think I have class haha. **Think.

          32. SMH says:

            Abe Moline, They were a big source of fun in my case too – the stupid foul jokes between me and narc. We were very open and direct with each other, and could riff for hours. I am very reticent here, though. I rarely say anything about sex. Why? I dunno. That part of my relationship with narc was actually good and I have sort of roped it off.

          33. Abe Moline says:

            Claire, you can check out The Disorder Series books if you want to find out who’s Ashleigh. Quite an interesting read, and shows some of HGs artistic side, since it’s a novel of sorts, quite different style from his other books. Although, if you also read this blog or the other books, you can feel that he’s also trying to make a (teaching) point here and there along the road.

            SMH, sex was also good with my narc, although when looking at it without emotion, I think it was not quite as great as I believed at that time.
            In retrospective, I also discovered two related warning signs I ignored back then. One of them was seing the black eyes at some point during intercourse. I felt afraid for a short while, but quickly dismissed it, and laughed about it with her – you seemed like a damn witch, I said. But I never forgot it.
            The second was when she messaged me about how I managed to “wake up her demons”. Typically, she did not explain exactly what those demons looked like, what she meant by this, but it was in the context of a sex-related discussion so I guessed that it has to be about sexual desire (which flattered me, of course).

            I also try to keep the narc sex-related memories bottled, but I think there’s also value in logically analyzing them so I can let go. Feels good to have the power to let go, brings back self esteem.

          34. SMH says:

            Abe Moline, Yikes. Sounds intense but if it helps you then it’s good to analyze it. Somehow I cannot be analytical about that part of my relationship, maybe because it was the most normal – the mind fuckery didn’t happen in bed – and because I was IPSS, so my emotional expectations were not super high. There were red flags of course (resisting condoms, for instance) but I’ve worked through all of that by analyzing his other behaviors.

          35. Claire says:

            Thanks Abe! I read the sex book HG wrote–I think I’m good stopping there though–it was important but I don’t want to have to stomach more sexual seduction he writes about. I occasionally consult and I don’t like thinking about it. HG feels more professor like—I don’t want to know if he can flip off a woman’s bra with one fell swoop. Yuck. Just yuck.

          36. Fool Me 1 Time says:

            Claire my sentiments exactly. 😳

    2. blackunicorn123 says:

      Joanne – ditto.

    3. Supernova DE says:

      I like your mindset on this Joanne. I still at times find myself wishing I was the IPSS he thought was worth keeping around.
      But it’s a good logic building exercise to think about what those IPSS are getting – low level sexual effort, him not giving a shit if they have an orgasm too, probably he’s faking having orgasms over the phone with them cause he’s cerebral, if he does f— them for real I doubt its any good, he absolutely doesn’t do romance, not even during the seduction phase, shelvings shelvings shelvings. When I remind myself of all that, what’s left to be envious of!!!

      1. Joanne says:

        I do wish the same at times, to remain an IPSS. At this point I’ve no idea if I’m on the back of the shelf or disengaged from, or what. But having made the points above, I think the only reason for that wish is my narc trait of “pride” being offended that he no longer wants to play with me. Logic reminds me that he has nothing worthwhile to offer yet my pride (and ET?) still wants him to come checking for me.

        1. Supernova DE says:

          Agree. If my pride wasn’t so strong, I would be in much better shape with the ET too.

        2. Lori says:

          If you have not been blocked everywhere and I mean everywhere if there is any channel that the two of you once used left open then you are on the shelf. If you have been disobedient you are likely on the shelf painted black. If you are obedient you are likely white and may or may not get comfort crumbs

          1. Joanne says:

            Thanks Lori. I would assume my position to be “back of the shelf” since there have been no crumbs in 2+ weeks which is long for him 🙄

  30. SMH says:

    HG, do some of these indicate narc traits and other ones empathic traits? If so, I think I came down pretty evenly empath and narc. I didn’t tick infidelity because I wasn’t the one who was cheating but I did tick pride and justice, both of which were tied to truth seeking, which I also ticked along with the desire to heal or fix. I hesitated about honesty and in the end did not tick it because I don’t think I was entirely honest with myself or with him until the very, very end. I wanted to be and thought I was but if I am honest with myself now about honesty, the dynamic did not encourage it.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Yes, some are empathic traits and others narcissistic traits and are non-exhaustive.

      1. SMH says:

        Thought so, HG. I felt it. The narc ones came out when I went supernova.

  31. NarcAngel says:

    Truthseeker is a bitch and not only with narcissists. Needing it and not being able to accept half-assed explanations, lies, or denial as a response keeps you engaged in many situations just to get to the bottom of it and have what you know to be the truth come out. Not just in intimate relationships either. Also Justice/revenge was an issue very early on. The feeling that they would have to pay/be wounded for thinking themselves so omnipotent and others as weak. To be made to understand how they made others feel by exploiting their vulnerabilities. I still have no issue doing that if provoked, but I don’t seek it out and now know it is only temporary and cannot result in any real change through any recognition on their part (I was not aware that most of them acted instinctively and had no idea what they were and therefore thought change was possible). I also acknowledge that I was using them as a form of therapy for myself (one that I would advise against for others) and thought: Why not? They can dish it out, so they can take it to make me feel better. Although I don’t have the same outlook as I once did (regarding revenge) I have no guilt about it either.

    1. Claire says:

      The knowledge of how instinctively they behave is freeing NA. It’s easier to regard as such, the plotting and rubbing hands together makes their behavior harder to digest if perceived that way. Knowing how rudimentary they are makes the allure of curiosity/thought and even attraction less and less. I have a friend obsessed with how she feels she has been plotted against.. I finally told her she has to stop or stay sick and suggested she consult the blog. I know HG says to not be prescriptive but she’s drowning herself by drinking emotional poison and her kids are sick of it too. She acknowledges this fact and she certainly belongs here but I won’t tell her yet again and again because it’s as if she wants to stay stuck??

      1. foolme1time says:

        Claire I believe the odds of changing a normal person as you said into something a bit more exciting and adventurous ( with the right person) is much higher and better for your self worth and happiness, then it is to stumble knowingly into the web of a narcissist who only sees you ( if your lucky, that is) as a toaster, or perhaps even a garbage disposal! 😘

        1. Claire says:

          I know I know.. I know. Haha. Thanks for the buzz kill on life HG. Eat broccoli and then maybe cauliflower once in awhile.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Never cauliflower. Awful.

          2. Claire says:

            HG—I not only adore you but after my morning in court I may start sending you creepy love letters! The mister is appearing to be what he is.. I got everything I wanted today—at least for temporary things. Now this can change upon further nonsense here and there but.. Asparagus is good—but with olive oil and sea salt!

          3. Lou says:

            I respectfully disagree. Cauliflower cream soup is yummy.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            If you say so.

          5. Lou says:

            I am surprised you don’t like cauliflower, HG. All that sulfur should bring you sweet home memories.
            You should try it, now that you live in Norway.

          6. HG Tudor says:

            Ha ha very good.

            I do not live in Norway.

          7. Sweetest Perfection says:

            That’s really funny, Lou. I am sure HG would love cauliflower if SM said she loved cauliflower.

          8. HG Tudor says:

            No I wouldn’t. It is outflanked by carrots.

          9. Sweetest Perfection says:


          10. SMH says:

            Ha funny, HG. I just posted elsewhere that I hate carrots, and peas, especially of the mushy variety. But I am a fan of the whole cabbage family.

          11. SMH says:

            Oh come now, HG, no cauliflower cheese in your life? Best thing ever.

          12. HG Tudor says:

            Horrific SMH.

          13. Fool Me 1 Time says:

            Oh it’s great HG! It’s even better mixed with a besciamella sauce! Yum yum! 🙃

          14. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Béchamel. YUMYUMYUM.

          15. Claire says:

            Bescismella sauce? I have to look this up.

          16. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Claire, It’s béchamel, called besciamella in Italian and bechamel in Spanish though it’s originally French. It’s a roux white sauce. I love it to death, and I don’t understand lasagna without it. I’m stopping here because HG doesn’t allow talking about recipes.

          17. HG Tudor says:

            Most wise.

          18. Claire says:

            Can you make me some and sent it through narc site somehow?

          19. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Claire, absolutely! I’ll send it through NarcUPS.

          20. NarcAngel says:

            Previously if your latest focus (for lack of a better title) loved…..(anything but insert cauliflower here for example), you have stated that so too would you express appreciation for it. Did that change early on this time with SM? Were you more comfortable with stating your different preferences and not having to mirror?

          21. HG Tudor says:

            Yes, although many preferences aligned anyway, but there are differences and the desire to mirror was reduced. I may have done so instinctively in some instances, I did experience the initial temptation to consciously mirror but I resisted doing so and it evidently did not prove necessary owing to other factors.

          22. NarcAngel says:

            That is very interesting and encouraging to hear. Thank you for your consideration and response to my question.

          23. Fool Me 1 Time says:

            HG that is very encouraging to hear indeed! I am so happy that this is working out the way you have planned it to. With all that you do for so many ( regardless of your past) you deserve this happiness and peace that you are finding with SM! It is also encouraging for me to know that perhaps there is hope ( sorry) for me after all.

          24. Claire says:

            Wow. Wonderful to read HG. It truly is. I know you say you don’t do happy but I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment here—you absolutely deserve peace and happiness in whatever way you define it. If you have been as much of a pill as you claim in the past you have to be absolved by just the sheer amount of work you do here. Who is keeping score anyway? Really? I have hurt people as well. Interestingly I find that I don’t need someone to be happy. I’m actually happier than I’ve been in a long while. I don’t need someone to provide (is it residual benefits?—the lexicon is still new to me) and I’m better off right now alone although certainly I tease a lot. I feel bad that you cannot really function well alone if I have indeed interpreted this correctly.

          25. SMH says:

            Add chopped tuh-mah-tohs, a good cheddar and lots of seasoning. Tell me you don’t like tomatoes either…

          26. HG Tudor says:

            Only vine tomatoes. But I can adore all other tomatoes if necessary.

          27. SMH says:

            Hahahaha. Especially cherries if needs must.

          28. Bibi says:

            I love cauliflower!

          29. Fool Me 1 Time says:

            Bibi it looks like HG might be the only one that doesn’t! Lol

          30. Kim e says:

            Fool Me 1 Time. I am with HG in the cauliflower issue. That and Brussels Sprouts are both awful

          31. Claire says:

            I like green beans!

          32. SMH says:

            I hate peas and carrots.

          33. HG Tudor says:

            They speak highly though of you SMH!

          34. SMH says:

            hahaha. sounds like a no, no narc veggies nursery rhyme.

            “If you hate your peas and carrots will they hate you? If you hate your peas and carrots will they hate you? If you hate your peas and carrots, never let them know or they will haunt you in your dreams and refuse to let you go.”

            Tell me that did not make you laugh. I made it up – now let’s hear one from you for cauliflower.

          35. Claire says:

            My favorite reference to peas and carrots was from Forrest Gump! (Jenny and Forrest were like peas and carrots as kids)

          36. FYC says:


            “Yes, although many preferences aligned anyway, but there are differences and the desire to mirror was reduced. I may have done so instinctively in some instances, I did experience the initial temptation to consciously mirror but I resisted doing so and it evidently did not prove necessary owing to other factors.”

            Sounds like the new dynamic is going very well! Happy to see that you know your differences are not an issue for the SM. Have you been okay with her differences as well?

          37. HG Tudor says:


          38. WhoCares says:


            “Never cauliflower. Awful.”

            Cauliflower that is oven-roasted to perfection – like when the edges are caramelized and slightly crispy – is like CANDY.

          39. HG Tudor says:


          40. NarcAngel says:

            Cooked that way is delicious but let’s be real – it still results in making one a gasbag and should be avoided when first dating/making an impression. Blue Angels and blowing across the room from pressure applied suddenly and in the wrong area is generally frowned upon in the golden period. During devaluation by all means – blow his head off.

          41. Sweetest Perfection says:

            NA, it’s not that gassy if you chop the stem off and only eat the head. That sounds awful. Forget it.

          42. Bibi says:

            At my job they recently held a crawfish boil wherein you add corn cobs, red potatoes and grilled cauliflower. All spiced to perfection. Eating that and then cooling the mouth burn with a cold bottle of Dos Equis.

            Funny all this veggie talk. I hate Lima beans. Someone on this very site recommend I try cauliflower pizza and I did and it was great!

          43. HG Tudor says:

            Here endeth the culinary contributions.

          44. Claire says:

            I just saw this. Oops

          45. SMH says:

            HG, you mean you don’t want to know what I had for dinner tonight? It wasn’t peas and carrots. Last night I had duck. Tried some fungus thing too.

          46. Claire says:

            I have never had crawfish! I can’t get past the visual but are they really worth trying? I think as long as we aren’t talking about baking we are following the rules! Lima beans aren’t heaven on earth—but I can do it certainly. Is cauliflower pizza a low carb concoction? If so I want guided to the best outcome of preparing it.

          47. HG Tudor says:

            Keep the Culinary Corner up Claire and never mind the lima beans, it will be the fava beans treatment!!

          48. FYC says:

            “Have you been okay with her differences as well?

            HG Tudor on May 4, 2019 :



          49. Bibi says:

            Fuck the fava beans. That performance has done more damage for those trying to understand psychopathy. Such a silly, trite, overdone performance.

            AH was scarier and more convincing as Nixon. Lambs is a cartoon.

            Anyway, HG will not be starting a culinary blog anytime soon.

            As for crawfish, I am not a super-fan, so don’t trust me. There are some who would die for it. As example, I find shrimp disgusting. So I am not the one to listen to. Many love it, however.

            I am so sad right now. Drinking wine on a Saturday and so very sad.

            Tee hee Sad, sad, sad, Listening to Louis Armstrong. Anyone else here a fan?

          50. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Bibi, I love Louis Amstrong but not on a sad day! Whenever you are sad, come here and we’ll talk shit about our respective narcs and make fun of them! Don’t be sad.

          51. Claire says:

            I love the idea of drinking wine but I actually turned down a lunch wine event with co-workers so I could actually sleep today. It was a glorious 5 hours of uninterrupted rest. Louis Armstrong would make me happy in the right context but it’s Black Eyes Peas right now. Seeing Momma Mia at an amphitheater sorta place tonight though!

          52. HG Tudor says:

            There you go again.

          53. Sweetest Perfection says:

            She just can’t get enough 😂

          54. Claire says:

            I love that song! I was actually invited to a cook out too but it started at 3 and it’s 4 and I’m not hungry. If I went I could photograph the preparations.

          55. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Claire, go and have fun! I love that song too, of course.

    2. nunya biz says:

      Relatable, NA.

  32. Petra says:

    I suppose decency is the closet. Right now as I’m engaged in the divorce process any contact with him is to glean information to his detriment

  33. Madeline says:

    All the above and a little more and most important for me faith and hope I don’t even want to talk about it.

    1. NarcAngel says:


      Hi Madeline. Just know that if and when you are ready to talk about it there are many here who share your thoughts. You don’t have to keep it bottled up.

    2. foolme1time says:

      Madeline at this time you do not want to talk about it because it is obviously still very new and raw. We understand that, but more important then that, is that we understand you and what you have been through. As NA has written, when you are ready, we will listen. I hope you have found a place here as we did so that you can begin to heal.

  34. Kiki says:

    When I feel down or lonely I start thinking I miss my ex narc and the emotional thinking emerges.
    Sometimes I feel very down that I am an attractive ,decent woman and I’m left single after a series of bad relationships.
    I haven’t met anyone new since ex narc ,I wish I did ,it’s like he cursed my love life .
    No I’m not going to get all bitter and twisted about it .
    Would just like to feel a mans love instead of being used .
    I think I’ve closed myself off from a lot of people though .


    1. Supernova DE says:

      I feel the same when I get down, or most often it happens to me when I am bored.
      I can’t listen to music anymore, I could find him in any set of lyrics easily. Only audiobooks for me, to keep my brain from wandering off during the empty moments.

  35. RG says:

    Pride- I’m ashamed to admit! Who the hell was that low life that I was not even attracted to physically managed to bring me to my knees! And now he has been unveiled as a grotesque lying cheat why does he still consume my thoughts 🤬 It angers me. I’m stronger than this!

    1. Claire says:

      RG—omg I feel this way too. He was an arrogant prick and he sucked. He was attractive but the veneer wasn’t enough to silence the rest and I let him do the same.. I

      1. lisk says:

        I third that!

  36. baileykaren2011 says:

    Pride and/or Justice…nothing else. When I was with him I gained 35 pounds due to stress. I lost my self esteem and the spring in my step. I have been working on me the last ten weeks. I am ready to start going places I know he goes…the gym, local grocery store, restaurants, etc. I am ready for him to see me looking better without him. I have nothing to say to him and nothing I want to hear from him. I just want him to know that my life is better without him. He did not break me. He does not have that power.

    1. lisk says:


      While I understand your desire to “show him” that he didn’t get to you, it seems like you might be inviting him in for a hoover. In other words, to go back to all the places he goes does not seem very GOSO to me.

      1. Lisk, I’m not actively seeking him out. He future faked me into buying a house within 15 minutes of the one he talked her into buying. We both have Y memberships and our little town has one Walmart! I have been scheduling my life so I wouldn’t run into them, but I’m thinking that if they don’t want to see me they can change their routine. I am back and stronger than ever. He needs to have to see it and deal with it.

  37. Christopher Jackson says:

    Always wanting to know because I guess I feel like I’m standing up for myself not letting her get away with it only to be met with a silent treatment…and get a false apology after everything settles. For the whole cycle to start over again. In the love department way to easy to wanna please her and it doesnt get reciprocated. The guilt is like hg said I wear guilt and always being honest all the time when all they do is lie and pull you around in circles.

    1. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

      Christopher: How long were you together? One day, if I decide to find a boyfriend, I will surely keep an open mind about any man that suffered from a narcissistic woman. He should not be too difficult to please in many arenas, after going through all that. A normal woman could remind him that one can embrace one`s partner while battling the world, instead of embracing the world, while battling one`s partner. It does happen, even if it sounds weird right now. There are normal women out there, so just because you retreat from one battle, it does not mean you can not win the `war`. Do not give all your hopes and dreams to that one basket, that may be forever passed around. She does and she does not know what she does. Both.

      1. lisk says:

        ” embracing the world, while battling one`s partner” —Wow! That’s exactly it. That’s exactly what Narcs do.

        1. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

          lisk. Sure. Narcissists usually and often hurt the ones that love them the most so much that it is one of the odd features of the pathos. `He/she really hurt me,` is what most people that are entangled with them say a lot. So, of course they hurt the ones they love for effect/fuel, because no one else cares, so others would not provide the fuel benefits. And, Narcissists need fuel to survive. If someone says that Narcissists play games too much, the games are still, at end, a method of survival. Narcissists intentionally hurt those that love them, because it is a more potent form of negative fuel, from what I am understanding…. excuse me if I am wrong about this. Others (normals and empaths) intentionally hurt the ones they love, I think, because at times (1) their narcissistic traits are activated, but also for (2) rehabilitative or teaching purposes only. Like when a parent spanks a child for running into the street. Because the spanking is the only action that the child in question respects, at times. That is hurting the child, the spanking, to rehabilitate or teach the child. Not to actually put emotionally punitive hurt into the heart of the child, because of an offense. Narcissists and Empaths and Normals hurt their loved ones, but there is often more malice from the Narcissist, and it is done more often , whether or not the Narcissist intends to hurt someone for punitive or rehabilitate or teaching purposes. Malice is usually involved because whatever happened that brought out the full narcissism above and beyond the trait, has never been avenged or revenged by Justice. This creates malice. Malice is a latent Ever Presence, therefore within the punishments from the Narcissist. So the Narcissist is hyper justice oriented. You offend, you will pay. Because, no one paid for what was done to the Narcissist at the time it was needed, and in time to prevent the full pathos to take the stage. No Justice. Justice was absent to the perpetrator/s. And because no one prevented the hurt done to the narcissist at that time, the Narcissist becomes his own power. His own god. A god of constant Justice. And now a god that decides what is wrong and what is right and what punishment is in order, whether or not the intimate partner agrees, disagrees or even understands the reason for the punishment. Who can question god? However since mercy and forgiveness is part of being a god, and since the Narcissist did not receive mercy and forgiveness from the perpetrators, The Narcissist, as his own god, has little or no mercy nor forgiveness, for offenders. A rare Ultra Greater Elite Narcissist could ponder mercy and forgiveness. And even understand these virtues cognitively or mimic these virtues, if they somehow benefit his Ultimate goals. The others can not. An example of a Narcissist hurting the ones he loves, being his own god, is an article that really helped me, is HG Tudors`s article on the: `The Narcissist Vs the Shelf IPPS.` I found the godlike activity utterly remarkable and clearly explained in a way that even a layman could understand. However, I am still a baby in learning and understanding all of this. I hope my errors are pointed out.

        2. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

          lisk. They battle the partner because the partner can offend the Narcissist and does offend and disrespect at times the Narcissist. Where others can brush it off more, the Narcissist will not, because of what happened that developed the trait. Therefore, the partner is the enemy even though the offenses/disrespect from the partner is often unintentional. The Narcissist needs fuel to survive. The fuel that comes mainly from other people. The partner in question has potent fuel for the Narcissist in question, thus the Narcissist choses this person to be partner, so that he can survive. However, the Narcissist is incredibly highly sensitivity to injustice and dis-respect towards himself. The Partner is bound to the Narcissist, but is unable to not offend the narcissist, and in fact does so intentionally at times and unintentionally at times. The Narcissist will not subject himself to a death of 1000 cuts or offenses from this partner, so he constantly punishes the partner for offenses, in order to survive. Because, the Narcissist is nourished by both positive and negative fuel. Positive when needed, and negative when the Narcissist is offended or needs fuel elsewhere because the partner`s fuel is insufficient either through staleness, or potency or offense and such as HG Tudor lists for us. The Partner must be punished for fueling failures, to restore justice as the Narcissist continues to survive by staying sufficiently fueled by whatever people can do the job wittingly or unwittingly. No Justice, No Peace. So far, No Peace.

  38. S says:

    I would go down in flames consistently via two routes. Wanting closure, to know why, to know if he cared, etc (Truthseeker) and I also had to let go of the idea that what he thought of me mattered. I had his opinion on a pedestal and I had to let that go. And realize the only person’s opinion that mattered about me was MINE.

    1. Joanne says:

      I can completely relate. Those were/are the 2 biggest hurdles for me as well.

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