Poll : What Has Stopped You From Implementing No Contact?

KTN Poll - H.G Wants To Know Post Graphic


In this poll I would like to know what is it that has stopped you from implementing no contact? Once you realised what you were dealing with and you learned that the most appropriate method of proceeding was to go no contact, what stopped you?

This is not a poll about what we did to stop you, that is a separate consideration, so if it was because we kept hoovering, you live across the street from us so we see you every day, because we threatened you or blackmailed you and so forth, those are not the considerations.

You may well have implemented no contact straight away once you knew it needed to be done. If so, bravo! For most people however there was either a hesitancy for some reason before it was implemented or it has not yet happened for some reason. It is those reasons I am interested in learning about.

It is about your situation and your mind set. Were you concerned that you would have no money or no income and therefore this stopped you? Perhaps you were worried it would impact on your employment? Maybe your health or the narcissist’s health stopped you? Perhaps you just felt guilty doing it and this emotional thinking held you back or you kept convincing yourself there was the potential for improvement or change, the strangling effect of hope.

Even if that hesitancy or delay was just for a minute and then you applied no contact or whether it has repeatedly stopped you doing it, do share your situation in the poll below.

Thank you for participating.


What has prevented you from implementing no contact?

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234 thoughts on “Poll : What Has Stopped You From Implementing No Contact?

  1. Liz T says:

    Mr. Tudor…
    You ask all your followers to make a “Choice” on why we broke no contact? You hand feed us the most common reasons with exception to one that covered most all of them “Fear”. Most choices in life are rooted in the two base emotions “Fear” or “Love”. Now that would have been an interesting poll: “Why did you break “No Contact”? Out of fear or love”? With follow up explanations as to why?
    Our choices in life set in motion an inevitable ultimate outcome of either consequences or rewards. Every time I attempted “No Contact” with my narc, it was out of fear. Fear he would not be there when I needed him to emotionally or financially help me. Envy or jealousy that I was miserable being alone and he was not. Fear that no one would love me like he did at one time or make me feel as good as he did at times.
    Once I allowed myself to be convinced and conditioned that I was no longer good enough for myself or anyone else, that I could not emotionally or financially stand on my own… I would break no contact. And of course this would please him and I would get that instant “high” from him for doing so and that would last couple of days or a week… Then the reality of the situation would set back in that I was back to square one and miserable. I suppose that is where the trauma bonding would tighten it’s noose around my soul making it more difficult each time I would try to escape his grips. It’s addiction at its foundation. For most people who do not understand addiction? Here is a good example: You know you should not scratch that mosquito bite. But it itches like hell! And when you scratch it? It feels so good. You scratch it even though you know it is going to get infected, make you sick and leave a scar. But you have to scratch it. That’s addiction. That is what it is like to be under the spell of a narcissist.

  2. Oracle says:

    i wanted to relate one more thing that i am uncertain how to classify it really. Police screw up? He beat the crap out of me 4 days ago. I took a pretty good ass beating. cops came. I said hell yes i want to leave. Here is my chance I thought. I can escape. wrong! The police told me since I had no family that they would pay for a nigt at the hotel until i got into a shelter. so i packed my bag and they dropped me at the door. I was covered in blood from the glass he drug me thru on my hands and knees, and his drink he had poured on me. I stood in line while people whispered and laughed. I was already ashamed that I had been beaten, but now this. i finally get to my turn, and the front desk lady says no one booked me a room. so i hand her the card for the officer that dropped me off. She calls and gets dispatch who does not know anything about me. Now everyone is really looking strange at me. I think they thought i was dirty street person. even still that is not nice. I digress. I left and came back. Those people were awful. I tell you, for me, I think well at least i know what I am getting with him. Out there, its just another line of people who pretend to care who dont.

  3. Oracle says:

    Hope of a different outcome: I still catch myself hoping for this. That he will change.
    Wanting closure from the narcissist: i fhe would act like i was even remotely a loss to him, i could feel on equal footing. I would not feel so worthless. but of course i am defiining myself according to weather he wants me or not agian.
    Fear: I have no net. zero nothing no support system. I am terrified
    Financial constraints he controls all the money
    Self-doubt I think i am stupid. I doubt i can do it alone anymore
    In business together yup did that. dumb move
    Housing issues dont have another home
    Health issues that is improving

  4. Presque Vu says:

    I’m completely No Contact now…. thanks to HG.

    But why I let it go on and off for 3 years was because I thought he genuinely had Bipolar (he told me he had) and so I researched it to become familiar with the illness so I could help him. I justified his behaviours as part of the Bipolar. I stayed because I didn’t want to give up on him.

    I didn’t care about any smears, or revenge but I did want answers when I realised he didn’t have Bipolar but was actually a sociopathic narcissist. I never got them – the closest I got was our last conversation..

    Me: Why can’t we just have a normal relationship? Why is there always drama over the stupidest of things like where to dine, or holiday or shop?

    Him: I will NEVER have a normal relationship.

    I picked my bag up and left saying I’m done. No contact since despite the hoovers because I found HG and became educated – sense kicked in – things became clear and the fog lifted – I felt relief – a sense of calm and I knew I would never go back.

    I’m stronger for the experience, I’m still learning – still trying to reign in my emotional thinking, I’m happy and free and most importantly learned a few valuable lessons along the way for which I am eternally grateful.

    1. mai51 says:

      Your comment is from a while ago…… but totally relate. My ex said he had ADHD. Maybe he did…. maybe he knew their was something not right in his thinking…. but I read sooooo much on that disorder and made excuses for his behaviour based on that diagnosis..

      It wasn’t until he got REALLY dark, that I realised the abuse was definitely not part of ADHD and I had to face the facts he was an abuser. Of mind and body.

  5. Saskia says:

    I chose closure from the narcissist as this was a central theme to our dynamic from the start. My need for closure was reinforced by how our relationship ended – abruptly, over an argument, followed by a smear campaign to mutual friends and acquaintances and the silence that followed in the form of disengagement of several years. In hindsight, I see many facets of my narc parents and aspects of our family -dynamic replicated: as a pattern, in the back and forth, stop and go involvement with the MMR that centre around the themes of silence and absence and also the mutable roles between scapegoat and being put on a pedestal. Finding closure was not only central to engaging with him but also reflected in the way in which I established full NC twice during our dynamic – in a swift manner, with little to no explanation. I just wanted to get out and leave him – this part of my history – behind. Cutting him off (off me) via NC seemed to be the only way to establish closure where there was no possibility to solve the confusion with him. I remember how relieved I felt at first, proud about my strength and courage but with silence and over time, there came the many nagging (self) doubts, in combination with guilt over the manner in which I cut him off and I started to question my decision until my ET levels were so high again I was vulnerable to another hoover. I did not realise I already had everything I needed – both in terms of strength, awareness of red flags and introspection – to find closure on my own. Back then, I lacked the appropriate information that would strengthen my defences and guide me through this difficult time.

    Closely related was hope for a different outcome. I have realised that hope for a better result, a new day, a unique opportunity, in general, pushes me through difficult times and seems to be a part of my mindset where I feel that any person has an innate strength to overcome obstacles or issues given the right information, understanding and support. I can also see the downside of it – the engaging in fantasies and opportunities rather than facing reality – and why this was a central motivator to keep engaging with the MR. Since there were some similarities and familiarity concerning our backgrounds, I saw many aspects of myself (mirrored) in him. I felt convinced that, given the basis of communication and understanding, we could achieve “a different result” where we would not be bound by confusion and toxicity but could establish a more peaceful relation that would benefit the both of us. This mindset did not only blind me to the truth of the situation, but it also blinded me to the fact that I did not even know how to define “a different result” for us. On a more or less conscious level, I knew there was too much missing in our involvement for me to want to re-establish a formal relationship. I have often asked myself how this toxic dynamic ‘served’ me, what I got out of it – and I can see avoidance of reality, of having to put myself out there and take responsibility and action for my own life as one of several crucial aspects of why I did not follow through with the establishment of NC.

  6. Kelly B says:

    Reported him to NCIS and he smeared me. No contact with the narcissist.

  7. DEMBunny says:

    None of the above

    Morbid curiosity.
    Personal narcissistic traits.


    I, unfortunately, have children with Ol’ Narcass. .. Waiting for agreement to ha;pen in which there will be an app so that we won’t need to talk directly.

    For most things, we had been using each other’s mothers as go between. However, information would be conveniently left out (by his mother), because of what Narcass would tell her about me and how “awful” I am (He has a really bad Madonna-whore complex and oftentimes would triangulate me with her).

    Anyhow, I have to play nice for now as I am not our son’s biological mother (her rights have been removed as of October 2016), and my stbx has not allowed me to adopt. He’s been using our son as a pawn to get what he wants from me, oftentimes telling me that I’m not our son’s mother, he won’t agree to recognize me as his mother (even though I raised him the entire 9 years of our relationship), and that I won’t even get to see him.

    Ugh…. So, for now, I answer his texts and calls, and bide my time.

  9. SMH says:

    It depends on when. At various points it was self-doubt, guilt, hope for a different outcome, lacking knowledge and wanting closure (though I am the one who always left).

    Now let’s see how many periods of NC I had before I was successful (to my mind):

    1) a month after I met him – that lasted a month and I broke it out of self-doubt, hope for a different outcome and a kind of morbid fascination (that reason is missing, HG);
    2) another after he canceled on me – that also lasted for a month – he broke it but I responded – maybe call that one self-doubt;
    3) another after he stalked me on a dating site – that lasted for two and a half months – I broke it, let’s call that one ‘wanting to prove that he did not win’ (also missing HG);
    4) another after I agreed to an affair and my anxiety levels went through the roof – that lasted for 3 weeks – I broke it out of guilt;
    5) another after we mutually decided to end it – that lasted 6 months – I broke it again out of guilt.

    Lack of knowledge can be layered over all of those.

    But now that I have the knowledge, and so no more guilt and no more self-doubt:
    6) NC has lasted over a year and seems to be forever, though I occasionally still feel guilt, self doubt, hope etc.

    Lesson: If at first you don’t succeed, try and try again. It gets easier.

  10. Michelle says:

    Nothing has stopped me from NO CONTACT!!!
    I WON. I WON. I WON.
    I forever closed the door to hell, f*** you Demon, rot in the mess you have created!!!
    HG IS GOD🌹😘🤩4 REAL!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      True dat!

  11. foolme1time says:

    I don’t think I was exaggerating, although if I knew which part I’d be able to tell better? 🌻

    1. Abe Moline says:

      This is the part I think you were exaggerating: “If they believe what he tells them, then they are just as bad as he is, they are not worth your time or the space that they take up”

      1. foolme1time says:

        Aww, I understand how you took that, I’ll try to explain what I meant. This place has given me a voice that I’ve never had before. This is still very new to me, even though I have been here for awhile. I always thought as you do, in fact I remember a comment I wrote years ago to a post of HGs Victim or Volunteer. The first time I commented not only did I say I was a volunteer, I also gave myself blame for all that had happened. His comment to me at that time was “ spoken like a true empath” We all believe what they tell us, we cannot comprehend someone doing or acting this way. Did I volunteer when they were kind and showing interest in me? Of course I did, but I also believed what they were telling me because I myself was being honest. What I was trying to say was that you deserve to be with someone that thinks as you do, not someone that lies and pretends to have those same feelings. If you use your time going back to someone like that who will never change, then it is a waste of your time, a time in which you could be finding someone like you. This next part may sound like something a lady would not say, I just do not know how else to say it. For years I felt there were only two things that I was good at, fighting and fucking. My ex when I first met him, I didn’t want a relationship or love, I just wanted the intimacy and attention while he was here. I knew he would only be in my area for a short time. It was him that made it seem more then it was, he was the one that was first to say I love you and that he wanted more from our relationship, not me. When that mask fell, I had no idea what had just happened? I could go on but I’m sure it is much to long if a comment already. I hope this helped you understand what I was trying to say. I have to tell you Abe, I really do ( even though at times, we don’t understand what the other one is talking about. Lol) enjoy discussing this you, I am not use to having a mans view point and I find it quite rewarding. Thank you so very much. 😊

        1. Abe Moline says:

          FM1T, you always manage to bring out the empath in me…

          I have not met many (if any) people having endured the amount of damage that you probably had. I almost cannot comprehend when you say “I felt there were only two things that I was good at, fighting and fucking”. It is surreal to me. Nobody should ever have to feel this way, FM1T… I am so so sorry… And so so happy at the same time – that you are here, proving to the world and to yourself that this is definitely NOT TRUE!

          1. foolme1time says:

            Abe, I like when the empath in you comes out. You have a kind soul that comes out when you write, but you also write with very much logic and understanding. Do not feel sorry for me, there are so many that have gone through so much more then I ever have! This place has become so much more to me then just a place to learn about narcissists, I have learned so much from people like you and others on here, I have learned about me and the person that I am, I have learned that I do matter and the things that I say and think are important. Through HG with his patience and guidance I have learned about self worth and a strength that is inside of me that I never knew existed. I cherish this place and the people who comment here, I cherish and thank HG for all he has done for me, for giving me hope and confidence in myself to make my on choices whether they are right or wrong, to not depend on others for the answers. I have a long way to go and that is ok, some get there faster then others do, but as long as I am moving forward I am still getting there. Abe their are so many that come to this blog that are hurt, embarrassed, and confused, I want to be here for them, as so many were here for me when I first found the courage to comment. Thank you once again for your kindness and words that touch my heart. 🙃

        2. KellyD (formerly just "Kelly" but I see there's another, so like a good empath I'm giving in lol) says:

          Hi foolme, I hope you don’t mind if I jump in… you described my situation,
          … when I first met him, I didn’t want a relationship or love, I just wanted the intimacy and attention while he was here. I knew he would only be in my area for a short time.
          But then I got attached in some way through the intimacy. I think I’m a volunteer/victim now. Maybe I’m wasting everyone’s time, but t helps to read here and to vent my spleen

          1. foolme1time says:

            Kelly D, Please do not think you are wasting anyone’s time! Everyone on here is important and are stories are all unique, although some might be similar, none are ever exactly the same. You have the knowledge that you will need when the times comes, you have a place and people that will be here when you need them. I enjoy your comments and stories. Vent anytime you want to my dear, we will be here. 😘🙃

          2. KellyD. Everyone resonates with each other differently. Plus, we are free to skip any post that we do not want to read. Andm more to the point: A post that does not resonate with one person, could save another person`s life. And, I am serious about this. ~~PSE

          3. lisk says:

            Agree with you 100%, PSE.

            I am certain that this blog saves lives as well as the mental health of many.

  12. MommyPino says:

    Abe, Stay strong. Use that time away from her to build your strength and remove that addiction from her. Build your life back. Have you read HG’s book Exorcism: Purging the Narcissist from Heart and Soul? Follow it like your taking a prescribed medication from a doctor where you have to follow it as faithfully as you can to get rid of a bacterial disease in you like Tuberculosis. And if you miss the medication the bacteria inside you will develop resistance from the antibiotic so you really need to follow it. That addiction is like a bacterial infection inside you which you need to purge.
    She will not give you closure because she has nothing to gain from it. You give the closure to yourself by reading and learning of her pathology and then having acceptance of what she is and that she is not good for you. You don’t have to hate her or think that she’s evil. You can just accept that she is incapable of loving anyone including you. You can wish her well as a fellow human being but you have to let her go. You can only get YOU back if you completely let her go.
    She might hoover you but hopefully by that time your desire for that is already gone and that you are happy with your own life without her. I wish you the best.

    1. Abe Moline says:

      Thank you, MommyPino.

      I have read that book, but I think I’ll have to do it again. I must admit I probably did not follow it to a T.

      The questions from my comment – I had them a few months ago. In the meanwhile I have found my answers, or more eaxctly, for some I have the answers, for most I no longer care what the answer is.
      I don’t feel completely immune to her, and probably never will. But I’m in a totally different place now than I was back then, and hopefully I’ll keep my NC well enough to not have to test my immune system anytime soon…

      1. MommyPino says:

        I’m glad Abe that you are getting your answers. There are books and articles that when I have read a second or third time brings me new insights and understanding because I have read other articles and gained new knowledge to appreciate an information that I have overlooked when I have read it before. HG’s works US like a sack of puzzle pieces. As we pick up more pieces by reading through it, we get a new perspective that allows us to see where some of the pieces fit in. Eventually you will get to the point where you see the whole picture.

  13. MommyPino says:

    I voted for the top answer: Hope for a different outcome. But that was before I had the knowledge that they will never change because their behaviors are part of their pathology. Knowledge has removed that hope and replaced it with acceptance.

  14. winner says:

    1. The hope of a different outcome – I was really in love with him. But I recognized the devalution quite quickly and started reading. I found out about narcissism – it was about him. But still I was in love so I was hoping I am misjudging him. He was blaming me for his withdrawals and I started to blame myself and correct my behaviour to make him happier. But it didn’t work. There were short respite periods and then the devaluation once again. I sterted to see the pattern, I realized he doesn’t love me and indeed he is a narcissist. I escaped.

    2. Ego – When I escaped I was hoping he will beg me to stay. He didn’t. Instead he gave me silent treatment. It was a blow to my ego. It felt like it was him who discarded me. So I didn’t go no contact I was curious what will he do next. After a few weeks he contacted me and asked to come back. I agreed to prove myself he still wants me. My emotional thinking ruled once again.

    3. Wanting to save the face – Honeymoon lasted only a few weeks. And I knew form the very beginning it was a mistake. He didn’t want to work things out. He just wanted to prove himself I will come back to him if he asks. When I realized that I wanted to have upper hand so I told him I know what he is and that all the problems in the relationship are caused by his disorder. I cut the fuel. Soon after he discarded me. The discard was brutal and savage. Even though I knew he is a narcissist for sure the brutality of the discard shocked me. Reading about the emptiness and lack of empathy of narcissists is one thing but understanding it when this person gave you “love” months earlier is another story. The discard hurt me deeply but I didn’t want to show it. So I didn’t go no contact, I didn’t want to feel defeated especially when he told me to go no contact with him! I din’t want to do what he wants me to do. I just wanted to show him that I don’t care.

    4. Wanting revenge – soon after a period of silence he started the hoovering pretending to care, pretending to be my friend. I didn’t want him back at this point. I just wanted to hurt him. So I was pretending I am ok with the break up, I am moving on, there are no hurt feelings. He started to love bomb me once again. I sensed he wanted to start the cycle all over again. So when he started the seduction I totally ignored him and went no contact unexpedetly without any word. It gave me a massive satisfaction and a sense of revenge that finally I discarded him on my terms and that he was so stupid to believe he could have me after all the pain he caused. He finally knows who’s on top.

  15. Ms Daisy Dee says:

    Originally, I avoided ending the relationship and going NC because I was hoping things would improve. He told me early on he had anger issues that he was working on. I’m all for self-improvement, I applaud that, so I tried to be patient. Turns out, his issues ran far deeper than simple anger management, he wasn’t working on them, and they were rapidly escalating!

    For the past several months, I knew it was beyond repair but avoided NC for two reasons. One, I was afraid he might make good on his promise to sabotage my job and I didn’t have enough money saved yet to recover from a loss of income. The other reason, he was obsessive and possessive enough that I knew he would be dangerous to break up with. I needed enough evidence of his abuse to get a restraining order, so I started recording his threats and rages.

    Then I left his things on the front steps, changed the locks, and haven’t spoken to him again. I wouldn’t even look at his face, in court. He’s stalking me, but all of the local police are aware and his next attempted contact will get him arrested.

  16. Newby 1111 says:

    But seriously, didn’t know what I’d been living for 40 years until I broke away and learned that if living with a lessor narc was bad enough, I had to run smack into a predatory psychopath. Therapist no less. How convenient! They can get you to tell them all about just how to abuse you.
    So, 40 year narc? He’s got cancer so what’s another year. Not giving up a roof over my head I’ve work for.
    Psycho narc?
    I can’t shake checking up on him. Fascinated to learn from you HG how he pulled it off.
    So curiosity and researching every word to figure it out. Also, I might nail him to every breach of sacred ethics and may need all the info I gathered. I can’t forget one word or action if I am pushing back to a narc!!

  17. Newby 1111 says:

    Because I’m a narc magnet. You told me so yourself.

  18. Veronique Jones says:

    Nothing once I make my mind up for no contact that’s it they can be sitting right next to me and they won’t exist

  19. Omn says:

    I am glad I am not the only one who voted the hope of a different outcome. ET !!!! Well – today I am fighting with me because he is starting his zillion therapy and yes despite I hope still.

    But I am not naive enough to believe me and the story I am telling me- but one of the «  me » wants to believe it will change and I will be the one. Sometimes I believe I am attached to the idea – that if in reality it would go well – I would run from him.
    I did went NC last year when I was flabbergasted it I know I could wait for the right Hoover to come in . I play in the play a part too. That dance, I dance and I dance and I dance. I am dizzy … i am sure you all can relate.

  20. Persephone says:

    I picked financial constraints. At the time we separated, I had no money or income, and could not afford to hire a lawyer/solicitor to handle communication. I thought it would be as simple as giving up all our money/goods to sign divorce papers. But I could also blame guilt and lack of knowledge, as I got sucked back in as he got sicker. Nope. I cared for him for another 3 years, and even as he was dying, he was liquidating assets, and giving them away to others to leave me not only penniless and in debt, and himself appearing generous, but he was giving away and discarding any of MY personal property that I could sell or use to produce an income.

    1. Lou says:

      Persephone, have you managed to get your finances back to normal? Your letter touched me and have been thinking of you.

      1. Persephone says:

        Hi Lou.
        Still not back to normal, but I’m still alive. Living month to month, but happily alone.
        When I found a Rolex GMT Master in a bag of foreign coins in the bottom of a box in the garage a couple weeks ago, I didn’t even get my hopes up. The coins were worth nothing, and even though the Rolex could fool a lot of people, I knew it was going to be as fake as he was. I got it double checked just to be sure. It was beautiful, but if you knew where to look, you would know it wasn’t authentic.I can’t even fathom where he would have actually worn that, but I have seen to what lengths he would go for certain images, different for different people. I hope I will be that good spotting people!
        Now, if anyone wishes to purchase USD $10,000 worth of fakery, cheap, just let me know! LOL!
        I also have found several pairs of shackles and “brass knuckles” if anyone needs. WTAF?

        1. Lou says:

          Persephone, I am glad to read you’re happy and moving forward. Congratulations on your new job and training. That’s very good news. You’ll get back to normal soon.
          Thanks for the update.

      2. Persephone says:

        I forgot I wanted to thank you for asking.

        And Narc Angel and others who asked:
        I also am going for a final day long “boarding in” for a job tomorrow. It looks like as long as the gov’t will issue a specific type of license to me, I’ve got the job! But in the meantime they will pay me for 4-6 weeks for training.

        I’ve got to say, what a world of difference, to have kind friends that I know only from commenting on a blog to the before with the cruel, sabatoging and destructive “significant other” who claimed to care.

        1. NarcAngel says:


          Thank you for sharing your happy news with us! It’s so motivating to see people moving forward and excited about putting their energy into something that is positive and returns that energy. Here’s to new beginnings (raises glass).

  21. BetterwoNarc says:

    I have not contacted the narc for 9 months. BUT I still look at social. I can’t help myself and I’m not sure why. I chose hope for a different outcome, even tho I know that is not possible. Maybe someday I’ll be able to fully let go. Here’s to hoping!

  22. Nymphedora says:

    The children and only because the danish family court systems wills it so. I have no doubt and no hope of change.
    I also fear I see a lot of my x narcs traits in our oldest son and have for many years now. Only becomming much more evident now he has become a teenager. He has always been very skilled at lying and inventing grand stories. Most of which where he was portraid as the “hero, good guy, know it all” of sorts. Confronted with a lie, he would and will still not admit the truth. Not even with concrete evidence and his little brother next to him quickly confessing the truth. He has also always blameshifted, never and I do mean NEVER owning up to his own part in let’s say a conflict. There is always a “because” and usually a “because of (someone). ” Very well articulated at a young age and argumentative to the point it can become word salad. Always needing to have the last word.
    Often resorting to angry and a few times even violent outbursts when confronted with his behaviour or asked to obaid by the common rules.
    I know this may sound like a lot of teenagers or even the result of having a narc parrent, but I must admit that I fear it is not. He has always just been different, in lack of a better word.

    H.G have you already or may you at some point give your insight on sighns of narcissism in adolesence? I have read a few mentions about how you, at an early age, sort of knew you were different. In the story about the cookiejar and also one about a girl you persued at a young age. I have also searched your blog a bit, but not really knowing what the keyword should be.
    I suppose what I am looking for, is an insight of what a non narcissistic parrets should look for in their child. Today, as a grownup you have a lot of control over your behaviour, fury and manipulations, but what about as a early teenager? When ones brain i scrambeling around with hormons and other stuff, maby not knowing how to conseal it.
    How would narc children/teens differ from others do you think?

  23. 19.19 says:

    Self doubt was probably the toot cause but many of the above qualified. I “maybe I’m wrong and they will change, I’m just being crazy.” “Maybe I’m wrong and I should give them another chance.” “Maybe I’m wrong and there’s something I’m missing. I should wait it out for more info.” Doubt causing hope of different outcome, doubt causing guilt, doubt causing want of closure. I kept talking to other people hoping someone could give me a solid answer as to what to do, but people kept giving me different answers, I should have trusted my intuition and not bothered getting other people’s opinion.

  24. misstasia says:

    I opted for Guilt because we have dogs together, they belong to him legally but I raised one of them for five years already and has bonded with me more. My Narc works out of town a couple of weeks at the time. I have visitation and I will help out taking care of them so NC is out of the question at the moment. Breaks my heart to leave my dog behind.

  25. nunya biz says:

    Here is my crazy thought process:
    I am only answering in relation to a particular person. I have been thinking about it because I had already in the past considered blocking the person but did not do it.

    I chose “willful blindness”.
    But I would add: hubris, procrastination, curiosity
    And then: self doubt, addiction, minimization, need for proof, self-blame

    I thought about it all day. Why didn’t I NC. The situation wasn’t a pressing urgent situation, so I just pondered it and analyzed it for awhile while doing other things because it is where my mind went.
    I had a lot of rationalizations come up.
    I have gone NC with almost every other narcissist in my life.

    So starting with: very seriously in my mind there are regular commentors on here who are coming out of traumatic things that involve kids and physical abuse and stalking and financial manipulation, etc… I’ve been involved in a very abusive relationship and I know why I am here, but I have felt like underplaying this situation with this N partly because I have never seen him angry and partly because we are not enmeshed in that sort of way. Also I am not very angry at him as I am with other N’s. He just doesn’t make me mad. Frustrated, very frustrated, but not angry as I should be like with other people.
    And I am not in love with him, he is just comfortable in a way.
    But the fact is he was a catalyst (three things happened in rapid succession) for my mental breakdown two years ago and I know that. I just blame myself for it and not him because I should be able to handle it.
    I posted the recent interaction because I am still convincing myself that this the behavior of a narcissist. I also remembered when I was thinking about it that when I was considering blocking him that I might change my mind and want to see him. I played it out in my head as a possibility and then I didn’t do it and then I forgot about it after that, so that’s why the unexpected hoover text, which would have been prevented. Even playing it out in my mind, he always does the same things, I know what things he could do, would do and how intolerable they are to me. He also has hoovered more than he normally would because I’ve said “no” to him several times and I have been satisfied with that. And that’s another reason, because I feel able to just reject, so I’m not taking the whole thing very seriously and I get curious.

    But really, in terms of my true commitment to reducing addiction and drama from my life, this indicates that I am not fully there. Because everything has been so much calmer for me and I leave that thing. I rationalize it is a small thing, but what he did in the past should be far more than enough for me to not consider it.

    1. Supernova DE says:

      what you say here:
      “I chose “willful blindness”.
      But I would add: hubris, procrastination, curiosity
      And then: self doubt, addiction, minimization, need for proof, self-blame”

      Just Yes Yes Yes! Oh the hubris, that is still part of my issue!

      1. nunya biz says:

        Yeah, SDE, I think if I wander too far that hubris always bites me in the ass.

    2. Claire says:

      You may not be there but what better place to be to get there.. No one is HG.

      1. nunya biz says:

        Thank you Claire. I am ok to be in process and I feel good about the things I have done so far. I was thinking yesterday that if HG can successfully convey 20% of anything to me that’s pretty big
        : )
        I like to post my thoughts with the assumption some of it is wrong, that’s the point. I have spent most of my life feeling off kilter and looking for a foothold on understanding, but too many questions. But I have confident parts too, and asshole parts. I like sorting things here.

        1. Claire says:

          People here are actually improving their lives which is a fresh and inspiring shift from the original venues I was meandering amongst.. Not that they didn’t want to—the skills were not there so it was just a bunch of rudimentary meager stabs at “no contact” and complaints of dating site woes. I wanted to stab my eyeballs with an ice pick. I think we are both in a better place.

          1. HG Tudor says:


          2. nunya biz says:

            That is true, Claire. If I had been, I wouldn’t have lasted long as a participant. I tend to recoil from things where the energy is off. It made me somewhat isolated, which doesn’t fully help with handling narcissists I think. Understanding some of the roots of the issue seems to make a difference, and effects my side of the interaction too. Right now I’m just glad my small workplace has zero narcs.
            Dating sites are a narc cesspool. I think HG says N’s are 16% of the population? I wonder what it is on dating sites, it has to be MUCH higher. Although I bet the percentage of female narcissists on them isn’t so extreme?

            Thank you for your supporting thoughts, Claire, I really do need them sometimes.

          3. Claire says:

            I’d be interested to hear HG’s thoughts on females hunting on the dating sites. I have heard people talking about “swiping left”—it almost feels dehumanizing in a way. It is like shopping for a warm body that looks “good enough.” My tipping point (I’ve said it before) was in regard to women getting opinions on attention from much younger men. It felt gross to me. 30 year age gap in one instance. My trainer is described as “gorgeous” (by women I work with) and I can visually see he is handsome indeed but he’s like my child. I find it disgusting. I’m not saying they aren’t entitled to it. I’m just not hanging around what is not of benefit to me. Infrequently here are these scenarios discussed and it is so infrequent it’s not an unwelcome shift in conversation because I don’t feel inundated by it. It can be fun to be a little goofy—sexual talk. Twenty times a day and maybe porn hub is a more fitting place to go. HG doesn’t have us posting pictures for compliments either—that always got under my skin. I’m sure if we sent him photos he’d tell us what cosmetic work we need though!

    3. MommyPino says:

      “Complacency is a continuous struggle we all have to fight” -Jack Nicklaus

      I think that the moment we believe we are safe is the moment we start heading back downward to where we started. It is great that his hoover made you realize that it’s not really as small of a thing as you originally thought. It’s like discovering a hole in your fence because your dog got out and ran away. But thankfully you found your dog and now you are fixing that hole in your fence.

      1. nunya biz says:

        I just adore you, MommyPino. That is a great metaphor.

        1. lisk says:

          This quote is going on the fridge, MommyPino. And on the bathroom mirror, maybe even the bedroom mirror!

          1. MommyPino says:

            Lol thank you Lisk. I’m glad that it resonates. 😊

          2. Abe Moline says:

            Haha… most importantly in the bedroom!

          3. MommyPino says:

            Abe Moline Indeed! 😂

          4. lisk says:

            Right on, Abe!

        2. MommyPino says:

          Thank you NunyaBiz! I adore you too! You’re one of the sweetest people here. 💕

          1. nunya biz says:

            Thank you MommyPino, I feel the same.

      2. nunya biz says:

        It is a hole, but the thing that has stopped me from seeing him prior to this (he’s asked and I’ve said ‘no’ even though I’m not deeply angry) is “playing the tape through”. It’s something recommended in addiction treatment actually. I wasn’t doing it intentionally as a means of stopping myself, just automatically as a decision making process and every time I play it through nothing is good for me because I am sure he’s a narcissist and while he is not “mean” and he is really pretty charming, he cannot see me how I need to be seen and I know that he is manipulating when he is talking and I just can’t feel ok about interacting on that level. It feels weird to me.

        His words are not convincing because, just like how I described the on the “Irresistible” thread the hoover interaction, he always does ONE thing that indicates he doesn’t mean what he says. He is VERY controlling over time related things. For example, what day to see me, when he is available, and when “fishing” like he was there he very specifically wanted his answer and the underlying message is false and he gives it away, I almost think on purpose. I’ve even pointed it out to him many times but he doesn’t change it. It has always and repeatedly been the undoing of our interactions. All of his hoovers have pretty much ended that same way. I know he doesn’t have an IPPS and I actually think that when he does he is intentionally monogamous for a time, though he may switch that MO in the future I have a feeling and as part of “playing the tape through” I don’t want anything to do with it whether he does or doesn’t, both options are bad for me.

        1. MommyPino says:

          NunyaBiz, I think that it’s wonderful that you have the clarity and knowledge to identify these patterns in his behavior and how it is not compatible to your vibe or energy. I want to achieve that clarity and insight as well. I think that it is important in my goal to get to my most authentic self. To not surround myself with people that sway my energy away from my center. Or to not let people that happened to be in my sphere affect my energy. I like how you observe all of these patterns from them. That is what I should start doing.

          1. nunya biz says:

            MP, I want to do what HG is doing! No chance, I guess.
            My husband is so detached, but most people find him to be very nice regardless. He is always calm, always and personable, not charismatic though. I’ve always told him I wish I was like that, just not bothered by anything. I’ve asked him why he doesn’t get affected by anything and he says “I don’t know, I just don’t.”

            By the way, regarding being affected by other people there is an empath gay man at my work. He is intense. He and I feel each other strongly, I’m not sure if he’s picked up on the what, why, or how, but he is very sensitive. I think he’s more sensitive than I am. We got stuck in a bit of a negative vortex today and I kept trying to dissipate it. I just have to be more careful, though I have been conscious about it since I met him. He does what we are talking about, he tries to manage energy influence, so I figured out he was sensitive early on. Today he ended up getting unhappy with me and like I said I tried to even it out. Part of it was he said he felt the energy before he started work, he told me it was bad energy and I think he felt it at home and he told me right after he got there, but I was partly feeling him. Then immediately after that we ended up having a series of negative energy clients, which never happens. Before he came in was a guy whose job is really bad, I won’t say what, but dealing with the worst things, then after he got there a very homophobic man who was awful and racist, etc… then a whole other thing happened where people refused to work with my empath coworker and he just went home. I felt so bad, and after his energy calmed down and he was softening toward me I asked him if he was an empath. I already knew the answer but I just wanted to see what he’d say and I wanted to tell him and he just said “yes” very fast and went back to working.
            I took the job specifically to get less shit from people though and that guy gets more shit at work.

          2. MommyPino says:

            Hi NB, Sounds like your coworker had a really bad day. I’m sorry you both got stuck in that negative vortex. I had days like that when I was working at the bank and those days really suck. I don’t understand why he would be unhappy with you though. Was he displacing the negativity to you? It can be tricky to receive all of that negative energy from people and make a conscious effort to not displace it on anyone. It’s a shame hat he encountered a prejudice person. It could also just be a narc who tried to get negative fuel from him because his sensitivity shows through. I think that it’s tricky for empaths to try to not get affected by other people. Empaths are more permeable than most people because empaths give everybody instant value. When value is given to the other person, that person can affect us. That is sometimes my issue but when I’m stuck with that I try to step aside and look at it from a point of view where I can see that it’s not really important and assign the right weight of value to it.

          3. nunya biz says:

            Yeah that’s a good observation, MP, about the value.
            That guy was so strange and someone else I mentioned it to said she heard him casually say something at the front desk on the topic of “physical assault” in a conversation which is not a day spa kind of topic, so whatever. I guess he likes to be negative.

            I think we were displacing at each other to an extent. The whole thing was weird yesterday, but I also did know he’s an empath, so I just figured his energy would calm down within an hour and then he’d feel bad and be nicer anyway. I’d already said nice things to him several times. And today we got along great and talked a little more casually, I like him. I told him a couple things I get weird and neurotic about. He’s been helpful to me a lot. Much better day, no racist weirdos.

          4. MommyPino says:

            Hi NB, I’m glad that you and him had a better day. I love that even though you had a stressful experience with him and found odd things about him such as being negative, you still looked at the bigger picture and was able to like him as a whole. About the negativity, I think that sensitive people and empaths can easily create bad habits such as dwelling on the negative energy that we get or the things that bother us (like physical assault) and then internalize them and even bring it up (to release them) in inappropriate situations. I agree that it is not a day spa kind of topic. When I worked at the bank I was living with my MRE sister and was in devaluation and there was so much negativity but as soon as I go to work it was like a clean slate and I joked with customers and talked about things that they wanted to talk about. I did more listening and they loved that. I was like a barber hearing about their day and even their problems. It’s way better than telling them about something negative that they are not interested in. It’s all about the customer. And I always found that I felt recharged by their positive vibes and go home with more strength to not let my MRE sister affect me that much. It is hard if we don’t pay attention but habits are very important and not dwelling in negativity is a good habit. I remember a customer that I am now sure is a Lesser Narc who only wanted to be helped by me. And actually I was the last teller who wanted to help her because she made most of them cry and the others do not like her. She did remind me of my matrinarc for some reason and now I know why. Because of that, oddly, I had some soft spot for her and so I always helped her and made her feel like a VIP customer. She still acted ungrateful or unimpressed although she was never mean to me. I just had mental boundaries that she is just a customer and I’m just doing my job so if ever she lashed out on me I still wouldn’t be affected. I hope that he eventually figures out a way for him to cope with his sensitivity.

            By the way, thank you for the sweet things that you said to me in another thread. You always touch my heart. I wasn’t able to write a more personalized and lengthy reply because I had to cut the weeds while they are still green and the stickers are not sharp yet. So I will be doing yard work all week this week. We also have a visitor coming. My husband’s grand niece will visit and she is really sweet and super cute but has anxiety disorder so we want to make her first alone vacation really special so I’m making our yard look like a mini park. 😊

          5. MommyPino says:

            Hi NunyaBiz,

            I should be getting ready for our road trip tomorrow but I couldn’t resist in telling you about the nine yr old grand niece visiting us. It’s so sad but I think that she already has NPD formed although I know that they do not diagnose NPD until adulthood, I think that she’s going to be a MR in adulthood just because the patterns that I saw are very deep into the disorder already and I do not see it getting arrested because she will just go back to her mom whom I think is a Lesser after her vacation from us.

            Her mom is my husband’s only niece from his sister whom I think is a Co-D. My husband’s late brother in law was a Holy Narcissist. My husband said that they visited him here when his niece was 12 and he will never forget that my husband’s kids were all playing in the swimming pool and he was inviting his niece to go in the pool with them and he could really see on her face that she badly wanted to but her dad (the holy narc) didn’t allow her because it was Sunday and she was not supposed to play on Sundays. He wanted to raise the ‘perfect Mormon woman’ in her. Fast forward to adulthood she ended up rebelling from him and she ran away. She married this guy who has extreme anxiety disorder who couldn’t do anything because of his anxiety and her dad didn’t approve of him because he is so disabled because of his anxiety. Her holy narc dad gave her ‘tough love’ so she was pregnant and homeless and she ended up slipping on ice on the streets and was hospitalized when her Co-D mom finally said that they will help her. So that pregnancy resulted to this nine yr old girl and she has a younger sister. The Co-D mom did a lot of babysitting and spoils them but the mom seems very controlling. She bombards me with texts asking about her daughter and to talk to her. Although the texts were all very polite, the sheer amount of them makes me reminded of my own Lesser mom. Whenever I ask the girl to call her mom she has this expression that she is being asked to do a cumbersome or boring task. There is no excitement to talk to her mom. The also do not say ‘I love you’ to each other on the phone. I heard her respond to her grandma with ‘I love you too’ though but never to her mom. She also doesn’t miss her mom. Her dad has major anxiety disorder and her mom has full control of him. Last yr we went on a trip with them and both me and my husband tried to have a conversation with him in different occasions to help him get out of his shell and he just always looked at his wife (the Lesser I think) to answer me for him.

            The red flag behaviors that I saw from this child are:

            1. She talks with a fake (small and soft) voice almost all the time. When my husband jokes with her by picking on her sometimes she accidentally reacts with her real voice. It reminded me of my MRE sister’s fake British or she called it ‘Mid-Atlantic’ accent.
            2. Constant finding of ways to get attention. Constant whining about every mosquito bite and counting them to me and asking me what it means if they are turning red, purple, why it has a puss, why it had blood when she scratched it, why does she get more bites on her face than her shoulder, etc. I helped her apply the anti-itch cream and she wanted me to apply it to each of her mosquito bite slowly going over each of them and it took about 20 or more minutes of my time. The next day I just gave her the tube so she can do it herself and she had the most helpless facial expression but I just don’t have time to do that ritual with her every day!! I do brush and dry her hair but that is normal with her age but I don’t think that inspecting her bug bites for almost a half hour everyday is reasonable.
            3. Her facial expressions seem very made up and not natural or spontaneous. It’s like she’s a Disney princess. Even her laughs are so controlled and delayed.
            4. She asks the most ludicrous questions to get our attention. Like when I took her hiking and we saw an ant dragging a ladybug for a kill she looked horrified and asked me what is the ant going to do. I told her that the ant will kill the ladybug and have the it for dinner. She asked me in a fake surprises way, “Is the ant going to kill us too?” Or when our dog didn’t eat her food she asked me, “what if she never eats again like for a very very long time?” in a very exaggerated worried face.
            5. When we were out at the river with my husband he playingly pulled her to the water a little bit and since then she constantly asked him ‘Why did you pull me into the water?” every one or two minutes. Our son was busy making sand forts and our daughter was having fun running and jumping on the water at the shore and she couldn’t have fun on her own and had to constantly ask him why he pulled her into the water. He was tired of it and told her many times to leave him alone.
            6. We caught her lying so many times with her stories. I know that a lot of kids lie but there’s a pattern to her lies consistent to NPD.
            7. She pretends to not hear us a lot even though we speak in a much louder voice than her fake soft and small voice. Last night my husband asked her is she talked to her mom and she said yes. He asked her, “How is she?” And she said, “What?” And he was annoyed so he didn’t repeat himself. She asked me and I told her that he was asking how is she and she said “Who?” And for the life of me I don’t know how she wouldn’t figure out that the person he was asking about was her mom since he asked if she talked to her mom so obviously it was about her mom.
            8. She also has a lot of efforts trying to control things while using her meek and innocent sounding voice like our schedule of activities, and places to go to etc.
            9. She constantly thinks she might be sick.

            She is so amazingly needy and whiny and bossy even though her voice seems very shy or meek. She has medicine for anxiety but my husband thinks that she doesn’t have anxiety. Although he also doesn’t want to use the word narcissism. He gets turned off when I start using that word.

            I feel sad because my kids love her and I don’t plan to invite her again next year. Especially my son, he constantly goes on about how beautiful she is and how the day is beautiful because she’s beautiful. Last Monday they were playing in the pool and he came to me in the kitchen so distraught saying that she hates him because she wouldn’t play with him or talk to him. I asked her what is going on and she said that nothing she was just walking in the pool and he said that she was walking away from him and ignoring him. It sounded like he was being given a silent treatment. I explained to him that sometimes we just don’t feel like playing with anybody and just want to be alone and it’s ok. It doesn’t mean that she doesn’t like him. I asked him to go inside but he insisted on sitting at the edge of the pool to wait for her when she is ready to play with him. And he sat there for a long time and I saw her asking her is she’s ready to play with him again. It kinda reminded me of an empath narc dynamic. 😬

      3. Claire says:

        My terrier constantly finds new escape routes!

        1. nunya biz says:


        2. MommyPino says:

          Aww clever dog!

          1. Claire says:

            The fence just may be lacking in height.. Dunno.

          2. Fool Me 1 Time says:

            He would still find his way out, it doesn’t matter how high the fence is! 😂🤣

          3. Claire says:

            6’0” minimum! Period. Ironically the same requirement for men!

          4. Fool Me 1 Time says:

            Hahaha Claire! 🙃

          5. Claire says:

            Fool me! I’m 5’8” (always thought I was taller but they insisted at the doctors office) and I can’t deal with shorter men. I detest it.

          6. MommyPino says:

            Ha! Looks like Foolme also knows the background story to this. Personally I have been attracted to shorter men before but I’m only 5’3” so I have more options. 😊. But I agree that tall men are very attractive.

  26. TJ says:

    I don’t do well with cold turkey of no contact. I am going on with my life and I just now think of him with indifference. I don’t feel any need to share anything about my life with him. My late husband cam down from the heavens and grabbed the Tentacles this man had intwined in my heart and pulled them out along with his negative energies he had engulfed me with. The love I felt I truly had for him is gone. Even the few times he contacted me, the deep feelings I once had are just DEAD. I just don’t care anymore. He didn’t want to share his life as a couple as most healthy people do, then he can have his life and I really don’t care who he goes out with and who he takes as his next source because he KILLED the love I had for him. I had a true deep love with my late husband so I know what that kind of happiness feels like and he does not know how to give from the heart. So he can have his life. I had one before him and I CAN have one without him.

  27. empath007 says:


  28. WhoCares says:

    I’m at the best ‘no contact’ that I can currently achieve.

    I haven’t had any direct contact with him (other than via legal formalities and pertinent third parties) since our last legal obligation; which requires that we be in the same room – briefly. I was getting weird phone calls from unknown callers but I never pick up unless I know the caller and soon will be changing my number.
    Sadly, due to various circumstances, I’ll now be geographically closer to him.

    Recently, when heading to an appointment, I stepped out to cross a one way street – it was still early and not busy yet … an approaching car stopped with no other cars in sight. With internal anxiety I noted that, given the colour of the car and the size of our community there was a significant chance that my ex was the driver. (As a frequent pedestrian I hate this situation even under normal circumstances because of the felt obligation to cross the road since I should feel “grateful” that the driver stopped for me. I hate it because, to me, it still feels like an underlying attempt to ‘control’ and pressure me into crossing – when, in actuality there maybe other factors at play that make it an unsafe or inopportune time for me to cross; for example if I’m pausing to discuss road safety with my son).

    Anyway, it all happened very fast in my head but I weighed the options: waving the driver on, stepping back from the curb and walking away or getting out my phone and pretending to answer it etc…
    What I decided to do was just pause, confirm that the vehicle was stopped, and continue straight ahead on my way to where I was going. What I didn’t do is look at the driver or the interior of the car (dark tinted windows prevented this anyway). I choose not to turn and walk away because this could happen again, given my situation, and I want to take back control of my own life. So, it may not have even been him in that car – but I’m going to practice acting like he doesn’t even exist or have an effect on me (until I’m obligated by law)… it means that I’ll have to school my internal anxiety to these situations – but he doesn’t need to know that.

    1. FYC says:

      Hello WhoCares, Bravo! It sounds like you are reclaiming your right to act on your terms in every way. How does it feel being in your new place? I hope you are loving the peace and freedom.

      1. WhoCares says:

        Hello FYC – I’m still in transition hell. (I’m just really practiced at making myself – and the outside world – believe that I’m really good at it…internally it is a different story.)
        But I keep telling myself; it’s going to happen… it’s going to happen.
        I think “transition” is my new comfort zone, lol.
        I have been checking in here but not following any conversations closely.
        Thank-you for your words 🙂 they are always appreciated.

        1. FYC says:

          Hi WhoCares, In my experience, the more I practice something unfamiliar, the more the concept is integrated and becomes a new second nature. I hope this is true for you. Did you see my housewarming poem comment for you a while back? I lagged a bit so it appeared a few days after you took a break. It explains what I feel about your transformative change 😉

          1. WhoCares says:


            I did read it. It was the sweetest! I could barely read it; I was too emotional … That was a hard day and your poem came at the best moment possible. I think I responded to it sometime later but it may have never made it through moderation or ended up as a failed comment on my part.
            But your caring words were read and appreciated when I so needed them ❤️

  29. lisk says:


    Fear of being my own self without relying on anyone else’s approval, validation, or influence.

    Fear of trusting my own intuition and judgement.

    Fear of being a real adult.

    I was in the shower at the gym this morning, drying off with a towel, when it came to me:

    The narc is/was a symptom of my incompleteness.

    I am still not full-on No Contact (mainly due to financial ties that he “kindly” implemented–Ulterior Motives?) because I am not yet whole.

    But I am not discouraged. I am hopeful and much better off than I was seven months ago.

    Thanks to You-Know-Who and the Tudorites, I am on my way to wholeness.

    1. foolme1time says:

      Congratulations list! 🤗🙃

      1. lisk says:

        Thank you foolme1time!

    2. FYC says:

      Hello Lisk, Fear is a lie someone enforced long ago to inflict control. Keep rejecting that lie. You were always whole and complete; you just needed an honest mirror to reflect the truth. Bravo on your courage and progress in finding your truth. Our feet always move in the direction of our choosing. You are headed in the right direction and I’m so happy for you.

      1. lisk says:

        Your words are very powerful. I never realized this about fear before. You have just help me change the course of my day.

        Thank you very much for this, FYC.

        1. FYC says:

          You are most welcome, Lisk. I have experienced so many epiphanies on this site. HG has created an amazing resource and experience for us all.

          1. foolme1time says:

            I keep telling you FYC how awesome you are! Your words are truly powerful and heart touching at the same time. 😘

          2. FYC says:

            Thank you sweet FM1T.😘 They begin in the mind, but come from the heart. Maybe that is why you feel my intent.

          3. Fool Me 1 Time says:

            That’s exactly what it is dear FYC. Never stop being you. 😘🥰

          4. FYC says:

            Thank you, FM1T, big hugs🥰 You are a wonderful person (even when you don’t feel like it)!😘

  30. Findinglife11 says:

    Totally drop him like a hot potato if i could. But 4 kids!

  31. Joanne says:

    Fear of him retaliating by going to my husband and revealing our affair. I am 18 days NC now. I still fear he could do this but given the speed of our affair he doesn’t have much to hang me on. Most of the texts were initiated on his side, and the commentary added from my side was agreement to what he said. So even if he had been stockpiling screen shot conversations, he’d only make himself look ridiculous in the process. I suppose he could edit the texts in a way to delete his comments, but without them the conversations wouldn’t make much sense. In any case, I can’t live like this anymore. Even though we hadn’t been in contact for weeks, seeing his social posts pop up was enough to get my anxiety up and the thoughts going and I had to put an end to it, so now he is blocked.

    1. Sweetest Perfection says:

      Hooray, way to go Joanne!!!! I’m so happy you finally did it! Diss that motherfucker!

    2. foolme1time says:

      Yeah!! Good for you!👏👏😘🙃

    3. MommyPino says:

      Good for you Joanne!!! 🙌

    4. blackunicorn123 says:

      Good for you Joanne! 👊💪

      1. empath007 says:

        Good job Joanne!! Keep reading on here and you will get through your ET.

        To the married ladies on this thread. I was hoping I could give some encouragement to you all.

        As to your personal situations. I’d leave the expert work to HG. He knows far better how your narcs will react to things then I would. To achieve GOSO and all of those things.

        I just want say that I understand your situations. And I would encourage you to take the power back into your own hands. And not let the nArcissits run the narrative.

        You all ended up realizing there is a lot of value in your marriages and the grass on the other side is certainly not greener… and if it was it’s becUase it was fertilized with Bullshit.

        Just don’t let the nArcissits hang the affairs over your head and black mail you… you are in far more control then you think… own your own power. Your husbands love you and your lives together far more then you think… I promise you.

        Whatever that looks like for each of you… HG can help you through that. But just know you are NOT powerless and this mistake does not have to define you or the rest of your lives!

        All the best to you all!

        1. blackunicorn123 says:

          Thank you E007 xxx

          1. empath007 says:

            You’re welcome. Team up with your husband. You will be far more powerful together. I speak from experience.

            You don’t need to pay karma for the mistake you made. You really don’t. Does the narc ever pay karma?? Even if they do they wouldn’t recognize it and your narc doesn’t feel bad he is purposely still trying to control you. And is infecting your husband and ultimately… in the end… the narc will tell your husband the story to punish you… they are patient fuckers… the fact it hasn’t happened yet does not mean it won’t.

            I get that I’m a stranger on the internet. But don’t live in fear. Do not let him run the narrative. You make sure that information gets told to your husband by … you.

            It might be scary but the alternatives are much scarier.

          2. blackunicorn123 says:

            E007, thank you. I appreciate your support. 🤗 xx

      2. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

        Dear Black Unicorn. I do not like this dangerous guy, if you can not tell. Also, you can say to your husband, if this guy starts trouble, that one time this dangerous `friend` told you a story about a friend of his that took a married man away from his wife. Your dangerous `friend` then laughed and wondered if he could ever take a Bromance that far. You can say that you thought it was an odd story, and thought nothing of it until he started befriending your husband, but you decided you rather your husband enjoy the friendship than to think bad about this person, without any evidence.

        1. blackunicorn123 says:

          Thanks for your suggestion PSE! I will see what I can do….it’s tricky, because if there is a shift in my husbands attitude my narc will pick up on it, and will naturally think I am behind it. Thank you for trying to help, I am very grateful.

  32. Chihuahuamum says:

    I ask myself this everyday. Id say its a mix for me but fear is at the forefront. Me, myself and i prevent me from going no contact. I fear emotional pain and extreme lonliness as well as heartbreak. I can identify with how a narcissist avoids the creature bc i feel that way about facing life without the narc. Maybe the creatures the same or similiar and is really ourselves. I fear not having that one constant in my life that person to share with who has always been there. I want to stress that my narc abuse has not been as severe as others and therein may be the reason for my no contact. Maybe ive adapted to it as well but i think its when you hit rock bottom and the abuse is intolerable that you are more serious about no contact. Also in my situation im a secondary and have never lived with my narc. I think when you live with them and face lifes realities it brings the facade to a head and the ugliness pops open.
    For me its been fear of life without him and to dive deeper into this is something i need to do. I need to untangle this fear and face it.
    I also would really miss the narc bc i do enjoy him in my life aside from the npd. Weve grown entwined like tree roots and i cant envision no contact. I do hope no one reads my post as encouraging to stay with a narc bc it is not the right thing to do but this is my situation right now.

  33. Kathleen says:

    I selected hope of a different outcome And overtime my desired outcome has changed from imagining I could have a normal relationship to kind of a fascination now with the pathology.
    When I was in the entanglement I was hoping for change and the return of the golden period.
    Now I still have had some contact but there is a new IP PS. I guess I find it a little fascinating to toy with it. It has given me satisfaction and validation to know that my ex will engage with me even though she has moved in with the new IP PS. It proves to me that we are appliances and fuel sources. Last weekend… I got a phone call with a hangup in middle of the day Saturday. The X has not called or texted me in over four months so I have a hard time believing that was a butt dial or an accident. I take it as my own fuel. I did not respond. I think OK if you’re fishing try another lure…And cast again. My ex used to use this trick when I would try to go no contact during the “relationship”- Call me and then either say -I didn’t call – Or I would call back and there would be no answer. Either way I would end up re-engaging even though I could see it was a game I was kind of trapped in a cycle.

    PS HG… I think we all love your quizzes! Maybe you should put out a summary with the top three responses for all of your quizzes you given. We love being your lab rats

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you Kathleen, I will be using the outcome of polls in future work.

  34. Whitney says:


  35. scareemaree says:

    365/24/7… sometimes we have no choice. You are a dark force, a spiral, but yet you are an ordinary person. My spirit is strong, resilient and though we may be eternally entwined we have never truly been together. Ugly secrets have a way of coming through your pores. You will never be clean.

  36. KellyD says:

    Is willful blindness when you know the truth but you choose not to act on it? I mean I know what he is, thanks to HG and this community, and I know what I should do, and indeed I want to do the right thing for myself, but I’m held back. Fear, I guess. Because we will cross paths on our commute and if I end it he will turn to ice, I believe, and the thought of seeing him like that… ugh. Also, there are still moments that are good and fun. For the most part, it’s not a good relationship and it doesn’t serve me well, but I still hang in. Is the friendship part not real? Sometimes it feels real and sometimes if feels hurtful. I know it’s not a romantic relationship that can last, so I’m not concerned with future faking. Yet, sex makes me more emotionally connected. I really don’t need him in any way. It’s complicated. It’s basic. It’s fun. It’s heartbreaking.

  37. candacemarie1212 says:

    I picked hope of a different out come. I’m not sure if that is the correct choice but it seemed close. I did block him on social media but I didn’t block his phone number at first. I wanted him to text me just so I could tell him I didn’t want to talk to him anymore. Eventually he did end up texting me but the out come was in his favor. I never got the final word like I hoped.

  38. Isabella says:

    Self doubting about if I’m wrong about someone and hoping I’m wrong.

    1. foolme1time says:

      I also had the same questions running in my mind, is he really a narcissist or am I wrong? I found out for sure by purchasing HGs narc detector consult. I now know for sure he is a narcissist. It’s the only way you will know for sure and stop questioning yourself. I hope you find peace. 🌻

      1. Claire says:

        The only thing I haven’t doubted is this. I have been frustrated though by appearing nuts because he probably is still golden with low hanging fruit. It’s like what the hell.

        1. foolme1time says:

          I know it’s hard to do, just let it go. If they believe what he tells them, then they are just as bad as he is, they are not worth your time or the space that they take up. Fuck them all!

          1. Abe Moline says:

            FM1T, I hope you realize you’re exaggerating a bit here 🙂

            For example, in my case, she has a husband and a son. While about the husband I don’t care much (because he is an adult and supposed to be able to take care of himself, and he’s quite aware of her cheating on him), that child is innocent. I know him and I grew quite attached to him. There is not one time I think about the child that my heart does not break a bit… Being aware that it is impossible for me to do anything about it (because of NC and of the whole situation, actually) brings some solace.

          2. Claire says:

            I’ve also given myself permission not to feel bad for his girlfriend. Why? She lacks a moral compass and is a bad example to impressionable children. Her lack of boundaries and acceptance of his lack of boundaries will forever impact their perspective on adult relations. A day will never come where my kids observe an overnight in the same fashion with a man. Period. Maybe I’m a prude (not away from their site) but I am better than her for my children. It’s embarrassing and I would be much happier with someone of higher appearing grace/class. This panic pick is so ridiculous.

          3. foolme1time says:

            You don’t have to feel sorry for her. The only thing you have to do is take care of you! Just as you, she had no idea what he is and I’m sure it will not be to long before she finds out. Take care of your children and yourself. Your children will not forget as they get older, what you have instilled in them! 😘🙃

  39. Sweetest Perfection says:

    I broke it because I ran into him at the same professional event. He was right in front of my face, I didn’t seek for an encounter. I simply said hey. After that, I kept my NC routine so I don’t even think about this encounter. Now, turning the question upside down: “What made you continue with the implementation of NC?” You, your blog, and the people in the blog.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      HG approves.

    2. NarcAngel says:

      Great outlook.

      1. Sweetest Perfection says:

        Yes, NA. Thanks to the great people here.

  40. Better Call HG says:

    I selected wilful blindness since that seemed to be the closest answer to caving to emotional thinking. Before I knew she was a narc and that I had been shelved, my efforts to win her back went no where because she told me she found the one for her. She suggested grabbing a beer to catch-up, but I declined since I knew I couldn’t handle it.

    Shortly after that, I found out she was engaged and deleted her number and unfriended her on social media.

    A couple months after she got married, she started following me on Instagram. I didn’t follow her back or contact her, but I didn’t block her either. She hasn’t liked/commented on any pictures, but I know I haven’t blocked her because my emotional thinking wants to create a potential hoover trigger.

    When it comes to emotional thinking, I feel like I’m a character in Lord of the Rings trying to resist the One Ring. I know what I need to do, but I won’t.

    1. Supernova DE says:

      Better Call,
      I’ve been there, done that. Been there again, done it again. Having the background social media possibilities feeds the ET (though subtle and you think you have it under control…), but if you look closely it also creates a subtle anxiety in you, knowing the hoover could come at any time. At least it did for me in the past.
      Hope you get to full NC soon!! It will take as long as it will take, for me it took some malign stuff to fully turn my brain off.

      1. Better Call HG says:

        Thanks Supernova! You are spot on about the subtle anxiety. I’ve caught myself checking to see if she’s liked a post or if she’s unfollowed me, and I know that’s only feeding the addiction. Congrats on going full NC!

  41. Abe Moline says:

    I’m not sure where I fit.
    Maybe the “closure” response fits best.
    But I did not want her to give me reasons for the breakup, for her behavior, or appologies or something like that. I understood immediately she would not provide any.
    It was mostly closure from myself, not from her, that I wanted… My own answers to my questions.

    This is the type of questions I had:
    How would she react now if she encountered the new-me, now that I am aware of what she is?
    Will I be able to handle her?
    Will I be able to hurt her like she deserves?
    Is she really a narcissist?
    Am I the narcissist?
    Will I be hoovered?
    How long will it take before getting hoovered?

    I guess that deep down it was in fact the addiction, the longing for being in contact with her, the jealousy of her refusing to talk to me, the anger about having been taken for a fool, the regret and shame of not realizing this sooner, and, again, the pain of missing her so so badly…

    1. nunya biz says:

      Abe, did you read “Where’s my hoover?” Reading that again recently I thought it was interesting how I read it more in terms of addiction than I had in the past.

      1. Abe Moline says:


        Yes, I read it before, and I re-read it now.
        Thank you for the suggestion.

        The hoover still hasn’t happened as of yet, but maybe I did not notice it (we have some mutual acquaintances) although I become extremely aware (and poker face) when someone mentions her.

        1. nunya biz says:

          Yes, I liked the part where you might not know, so true, and also where maybe you didn’t leave a chance because you kept talking, because I did that with one person. Specifically because I subconsciously knew they’d hoover eventually and fuck that I was evil in hell angry and now or never motherfucker. Plus hurt.
          I don’t want that hoover.

          But I liked it recently in terms of clarifying my motivations.

    2. foolme1time says:

      Do you know whether you were disengaged from or shelved? I guess either way she will be back at some point to hoover you back in. I can tell by what you just wrote at the end of your comment that you cared about her very much. I hope you can stay strong when she does come back once again, you are so much better then that and deserve so much better.

      1. Abe Moline says:

        I have been shelved for a while, before we broke up. It was more like a forced downgrade to NIPSS, because she made it clear we’re not going to be intimate anymore.
        In the end, I’m a bit unsure what exactly it was. I call this a disengagement/escape kind of deal. I don’t think it’s really important either.

        The break up was via messaging, something like:
        I was insisting on her telling me why should we communicate anymore if she is not even interested in having me as a friend, what is her purpose in that. Over the course of one hour or so, she managed to avoid answering this straightforward question.
        In the end, she said “Well, Abe, this does not seem to work for you, let’s end it here”.
        I said “Ok, I was afraid of this outcome, but since it’s obviously too much for you and I’m not worthy of you analyzing yourself a bit and giving me an answer, that’s what it will be”.
        We still had some more discussions the following days (which I initiated), but in the end I started a period of a few weeks of total silence. That’s when I found out about narcissism.
        I sent her a few more messages, very neutral ones, because I was curious of her reply (and probably wanted my well-deserved hoover). But she did not reply.
        Then I stopped messaging completely. A few more weeks later, I blocked her.
        I have no idea if she has blocked me back or not, last time I checked she did not. Now… I don’t know anymore. Probably not.

        I guess, according to HG’s algorithm, I was not disengaged, since she has not blocked me. However, I also did not pester her in any way, so there was really no need to block me.
        She had around 2 months when she could have contacted me, I even wrote her in this period, but she did not, so I had no comfort crumbs either.

        It is true I really cared about her a lot, she was good at the game indeed. But I hope she won’t ever be back…

        Thank you for your encouragement and kind words, FM1T. Take care! 🙂

        1. foolme1time says:

          You are welcome Abe, please take care also. 🙃

    3. FYC says:

      Abe, I do not think you are the narcissist. We all have narcissistic traits, but this does not mean we are narcissists. From what I have learned here, narcissists do not develop attachments. Narcissists also don’t have genuine concern for a child’s experience (the N experiences their children as extensions of themself and the child’s own feelings are irrelevant if they are not supporting/feeding the N).

      From a psychological and neurochemical standpoint, love is designed to bring people together; attachment is designed to keep people together. Breaking a psychological attachment is a painful experience for anyone. Combine that with the N love bombing, intermittent reinforcement, and cold discard and you have a traumatic disengagement indeed.

      Abe, I am sorry you are suffering. I hope you know you are not addicted to her. If prevailing theory holds, you loved how you felt for a time with her and these feelings sparked hopes. She did not match these hopes so they remain unresolved. Provide your own conclusion now that you know the truth. Forgive yourself for not recognizing her for what she is sooner. Forgive yourself for being human.

      Revenge is useless and driven by ego. Derive your satisfaction from being the good man you are, rather than reducing yourself to revenge. I like this quote: “Revenge is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.” I wish you the very best in your healing.

  42. mai51 says:

    HG, I think your parameters are too narrow, whilst paradoxically too broad.

    I couldn’t implement true no contact, because I was addicted, trauma bonded, ignorant to what he truly was, ashamed, conditioned, broken, and still in love.

    I voted “wilful blindness”, because, of course I knew what he was….. I’d been entangled before…. just a different cadre, so I chose to see the patterns differently, for selfish reasons, and also for self preservation.

    I have been truly, completely and utterly no contact only for 4 weeks…. even after your consultation, and reading your books, and having help from other blogs and so forth…. it has taken this long, I am sad to say.

    It wasn’t until I found out he was engaged to his new IPPS that I was able to do this….

    And part of me thinks that frequenting your site so often, and so voraciously, is still, in a sense, contact…..because although it makes me think, and understand the ensnarement, it also keeps him alive in this understanding….

    Do you agree?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      No, your ET thinks that using this site is counter-productive in order to pull you away from the logic of reading here.

      1. mai51 says:

        That was a time lengthy reply lol…

        Actually, your site used to trigger me…. quite a bit tbh….. but I always realised that your truths would be helpful, factual and reasoned…. so I continued to read.

        Lately, and perhaps it’s bc my LT has taken over (thanks to your site), or the realism has taken over (he actually was a loser with a nice penis) or, the fact that I’m dating a wonderful, successful and stable guy ( this has played the biggest part)…. but my power is back, and I attribute to you HG…. I can’t thank you enough.


        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are welcome.

  43. Rebecca Sager says:

    I tried to escape my narc 2 weeks after I turned 18. Not sure it’s the same for Europe but in USA it’s the legal age of adulthood so I could not be classified as a run away or crazy and made to return to the fold.

    Unfortunately at the time I had no idea what I was dealing with. I still wanted my family but refused to let her run my life. Looking back at things I can see she only took an interest in me afterwards if it benefitted her somehow. I can see the silent treatment she deployed along with the smear campaign and even heard about a moment her facade cracked. She never tried overtly controlling my life again but made plenty of attempts at subterfuge.

    That’s not to say things wouldn’t have gotten bad again. At one point I had to move back into her house. I’m sure she had some punishment planned but she never got to implement it because I quickly moved out again. Something told me it was a matter of time until she pulled things. She tried sabotaging that move out and failed leaving her to just do silent treatments and snide comments.

    Bit of karma or payback though my husband and I became an option for when people in the family had problems. Instead of going to her for loans/advice they come to us. Since I learned what she is and informed others she has lost control over her golden child, 2 other appliances, and had to endure an event of family (my dad’s side) singing my praises (I was not there and heard about it later). Pretty sure she hates my existence more than anything now.

  44. blackunicorn123 says:

    The option applicable to me is not on there and I can only assume it is quite rare. As explained on another post, my narc has ensnared my husband as a friend so I cannot instigate a complete NC.

    1. Caroline-is-fine says:

      Oh geez… I’ve not seen your other post. If you don’t mind answering, does your husband consider him a close friend? Would your husband discuss personal aspects (about you/your own marriage relationship) with him? I can only imagine the stress this causes you. 🙁

      1. blackunicorn123 says:

        Hi Caroline, I don’t mind at all. Yes, my husband considers him a close friend, and yes, I believe he probably does discuss things with him. I try hard to be Grey Rock about my personal life, but I’m aware my husband probably does tell him things – either through his own volition or by crafty probing from the narc. It’s a no-win situation for me at the moment, but it is what it is, and I have to accept it and work through it on a day to day basis.

        1. Caroline-is-fine says:

          Wow, that’s a lot to contend with, BU123…I really feel for you… day-by-day — I understand. I’m sure it feels threatening any way you look at it, but do you feel the narc is being directly threatening (hanging it over your head to tell), or do you feel like he’s trying to get things started back up with you? Or both, & sundry other things, being a narc… sigh. (Again, no need to answer, only if it helps you to talk it out).

          1. blackunicorn123 says:

            Hi Caroline – I feel it is a bit of both, because he does allude to him “not telling” quite a bit, sometimes out of nowhere – why say that, except to remind me he could?! Plus, he does hoover about once every two months or so. I used to track it to keep myself sane and pretend I had some control. Now, it’s just part of my life, sadly.

          2. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Ugh. I’m so sorry… my wish would be that your husband knew/forgave you & neither one of you had to ever see him again… but I understand that you have to do what you feel is best. Big hug to you.

          3. blackunicorn123 says:

            Thanks Caroline xx

          4. Sweetest Perfection says:

            To terrorize you. What a piece of shit. He knows you are worried he would do that and he knows just the mentioning of it, even if it is within a negative sentence, will trigger your fear. I would start acting like I don’t give a shit. If anything I did right with my asshole was to never show fear of him or of anything. I remember he told me once to delete all his pics and he said I did delete your I don’t want them to come back at you. And I answered: if they do, I did look great didn’t I? I don’t care I love my body. (Obvs I would care but I’m not gonna let him know that!).

          5. blackunicorn123 says:

            Hi SP, yes, it is to terrorise me, I have no doubt. I know it’s a manipulation, and I do see it in that context, but there is a part of me that wouldn’t put it past him. He’s actually very insecure behind his mask, but he’s also very petty and vengeful and I just wouldn’t want to try him on it. I feel it in my gut. He would accept the challenge and then some! So I’m playing the fool to fool the fool. I’ve also kept his messages to me, to show his hoovering over the last three years, because I’m nervous he’s kept mine from when we were “together”. He says he’s deleted them, but I don’t believe him. I also want to show he is far from innocent, and that he hasn’t let it go and could be seen as still chasing me (to people who don’t know narc behaviour). It will be too late for me, but I’m not letting him walk away clean.

          6. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Also Bku, if you talk to him via email or any other written manner, keep all of his messages mentioning that. You can sue him for harassment or extortion or both if something happens.

          7. blackunicorn123 says:

            Thanks SP xx

          8. Sweetest Perfection says:

            You’re welcome, BKU. I want you to know that I do keep messages for the same reason and have felt anxiety for the same reason. If we need to hire a lawyer we can go 50/50 if you want 😉

          9. HG Tudor says:

            Ballwashing bastards! Hire me – less expensive and more effective

          10. Claire says:

            Yes yes—although there is a special attention factor I get..

          11. Sweetest Perfection says:

            But you use PayPal and it’s convoluted.

          12. HG Tudor says:

            PayPal convoluted? Sheesh!

          13. Sweetest Perfection says:

            It is in my situation. I’ve never heard ballwashing bastard before, but coming from you I’m sure it’s a nice thing, thank you HG, likewise!

          14. Claire says:

            I like Venmo. I love the public comments people post—“for the sex” etc.. Certainly many are more creative—“body burial..”

          15. blackunicorn123 says:

            HG – you’d be WAY more effective. I would love to be a fly on the wall if you ever challenged him as my advocate.

          16. HG Tudor says:

            Fucking A!

          17. Lou says:

            HG, is there a solution to SP’s and BU’s situation where the narc has ensnared the husband as a close friend?

          18. HG Tudor says:


          19. Lou says:

            SP, BU, have you consulted With HG?
            If not, maybe you should.

          20. Claire says:

            He occasionally has to throw lotion down to the prisoners but generally the distraction is tolerable.

          21. blackunicorn123 says:

            HG, if I wanted to talk to you about this again, would it be the normal consultation route?

          22. HG Tudor says:

            Yes it would BU123

          23. blackunicorn123 says:

            Thank you for your prompt reply.

          24. Fool Mw 1 Time says:


            Please consult with HG again. He is the only one that understands you and the narcissist. He can help you with this, I know that he can!

          25. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Ditto that!:D

          26. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I’ll do that too and will follow your advice on the prepaid Visa card, FM1T. Btw, last night while my husband and I were hanging out with friends, we took the Eneagram personality test of which I had never heard anything. I took two slightly different ones. In both of them I ended up with the personality of number 3, “the achiever,” which is described as a total narc. I didn’t get surprised by the word achiever because I am like that, or by the description that said that this type needs constant external validation through success because that’s what my childhood has been and how I feel. But the fact that it is described as narcissistic made me worry!!!! Am I a MRN in denial?

          27. Fool Me 1 Time says:


            If that would be the truth, someone on here would have noticed it by now. Just asking that question tells me you are not! There is only one person that I listen to, that is HG! He has never steered me wrong one time. If I were you, I’d take the empath consult, it helped me so much in understanding myself and some of the things I do. I want you to know that I don’t say this to kiss up to HG, or because I’m a Tudorite. As some may think. SP I’m telling you because I have spent my life questioning so many things including myself, HG has helped me understand all of it. The empath consult was the most important consult for me of any that I have had, consulting with him afterwards with questions about the results, was the best move I could have made! He answered them all! He has given me not hope, but knowledgeable that I can use to finally live the life I deserve to live! I thought I had lost all of my emotions until I wrote this to you today with tears pouring down my face. Sweetest live the life you are suppose to live! 😘

          28. Sweetest Perfection says:

            FM1T, I know what I am. I used a fake account and took the test but I can’t use it again for reasons that are difficult to explain. I’m not a narc, I’m a standard Empath. But the results last night kept me thinking what kind of Empath am I so obsessed about external validation and success??? Then I realized that childhood trauma can ruin you and make you either one extreme or the other. My parents’ lack of praise and my family’s disfunction made me very self-demanding and ambitious, but it didn’t make me heartless. I do feel empathy and I’m changing my career thanks to the info I read in that test. I’m trying to live the life I am supposed to thanks to HG’s help in knowing my true personality. And like you, I also cried when I found out. 😘

          29. Fool Me 1 Time says:


            I just cannot say enough about how much HG and his consults have changed my life. Early this morning I discovered what it is I’m suppose to be doing. I always thought it but was never quite sure, I was always filled with fear and doubt, that is no longer so! I only discovered it because of this place, all of you, and the most important one of all, HG! I will never be able to thank him enough for leading me to the path, I now know I must take.
            Congratulations Sweetie you’re going to be just fine!! 👏👏😘

          30. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I’m happy you too found your path, FM1T! I was just listening to HG on Telesummit. Good job, HG! I have taken notes of everything you said. I love how clearly you explain everything and how insightful you are. My favorite part and hardest to admit is the reality of wanting to feed our addiction. All in all, a very logical and direct interview, and you own the best motto of all of them: ONCE YOU KNOW, YOU GO. Congrats!

          31. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you SP, I am pleased you found it useful.

          32. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Everything you say I always find it useful, HG. But this time in particular, as I suspect I’ve been smeared to mutual friends and colleagues, I was paying a lot of attention. I specifically loved when you made clear that common narcs do not respond to this description of the Machiavellian calculating devil that is plotting how to destroy our lives, but they act as a defense mechanism to retain control at the present moment. And of course the best piece of advice: if you react to the smear campaign, it’s like scratching. The best thing to do is to ignore. Btw, I noticed they gave a warning during your introduction again! Haha. I also listened to that doctor on psychopathy I mentioned in another comment. I wonder how you can become an expert in your area when most of the questions they will ask you are gonna be answered with “of course we don’t know that.” If you don’t, what are you doing research on? Just my opinion…

          33. SMH says:

            Can I get that link anywhere? Anyone know?

          34. Fool Me 1 Time says:

            Thank you. Yes I have found the path that I am to follow and have been working on my plan to not only get on that path but to follow it through until the end and beyond.

            One of the hardest things for me to accept was the addiction. HG has written about it and we have discussed it through consults also, however he could have talked until he was blue in the face but until I accepted it as the truth it wasn’t going to help me. When I here the warnings that go up before he speaks it makes me angry, if they would only listen for just a few minutes they would realize how amazing he truly is. The knowledge that we obtain from him is so much more then just learning about narcissism. I have learned about myself just as much, as if not more then I have about narcissist. He gives us a voice that many (including myself) have never had before. Right now that voice has gotten off track! Lol. By continuing to read and listen to HG (like yesterday’s interview) keeps the knowledge that I have gained from him fresh and always at the forefront. Addiction is something we will have to stay aware of for the rest of are lives. 🙃

          35. Sweetest Perfection says:

            FM1T I totally agree with you, I don’t know if I value more the info I got about narcissists or the one I learned about myself, now I understand why I receive everything so intensely and why some people used to tell me that I don’t react in a normal manner but I’m always so full of drama and high energy. It is what it is! I’m having a lot of ET today so it’s not being easy. I got a hoover yesterday and aghhhhh I wanna die. It was by proxy -totally unexpected since I haven’t seen this person in a while-. As always the narc is playing with “secret language” that no one else but he and I know what it means and it got in my soul a little. But I shook it off and pretended not to know anything. The addiction is still there. Fuck.

          36. Fool Me 1 Time says:

            I understand the addiction, I am sorry you’re having a tough day with ET! Ugh! You got through the Hoover and you’re on here now, so far so good! It will pass, it always does. Think of your exciting new future and the life ahead of you without the drama. SP if these hoovers continue,
            please consult with HG, you know he can tell you how to fix this! Stay strong Sweetie, you got this!! 😘😘🙃

          37. SMH says:

            Sorry that happened, SP. Makes me glad that MRN and I do not know anyone in common. Funny about the secret language (funny as in weird). We had one too. I wonder if that is a weapon in the narc arsenal to make us feel special, even though they probably have the same secret language with others too.

          38. Sweetest Perfection says:

            It totally is, SMH. HG explained very well in an article on social media and the narc (one of my favorite ones) how they drop little “bombs” of words or references that they know you recognize although they may seem innocuous to the rest.

          39. SMH says:

            SP, Yes, but do they drop the same little bombs with all of their fuel sources? It’s nothing special or secret if they do (and I am sure HG will say that they do). I guess if it works once they figure it will work again, and it does.

          40. Claire says:

            HG specifically addresses this type of test, although I cannot recall the buzz word to look up the comment. Basically these tests are horse shit. I took one once and exceeded the narcissist range before answering all the questions. I didn’t range as a narcissist from the empath test at all. If I recall HG suggested a narcissist wouldn’t answer the questions honestly out of an inability to be self critical I presume—also several other reasons they are worthless. Now, if you are strangling kittens you may have an issue. I have never had the hair on my neck stand up from your posts, although only recently have I started to identify readers regularly. From what I see and remember you seem reflective, intuitive, thoughtful, etc. Yes, there are several people on here that I have questions about but I just ignore it mostly. You aren’t on that radar and the empath test is only $100. It was worth some peace of mind. I spend $100 just walking in Target for a half hour with less satisfaction.

          41. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Omg Target is a trap! Hahaha thank you Claire, I just explained I did take the test already and thank goodness I was not a narc. And I would NEVER strangle kittens, I love animals more than I love certain people. I do want to do the narc detector on my narc though because I did get surprised by my Empath cadre, although it totally makes sense now. So far I’ve been thinking my narc is somatic because of his fabulous body and his online vanity, but he is also very intellectual so I must be wrong. I need to take it. I just pray I’m not mistaken on the MRN part and he is not a Greater because that would scare the shit out of me.

          42. Claire says:

            Sorry I misinterpreted that.. I see now. Target is bad but Ulta is horrible. You need to get in on the L’ange sale. I told HG all about it. I’m so giddy for the boxes to arrive! Nothing better than boxes! I never did a narc detector but there is no need. It’s clear as clear can be—he’s quite impaired and entrenched in it. Middle mid to the T on HG’s YouTube presentation/writings. All mid range behaviors are him, he should be the caption on this site—his face in the dictionary for narcissist..
            I know I don’t know much—but I do know one greater for absolutely certain. Internist I work with. I adore him—and I need to quit hugging him because he’s becoming quite fond of me. Of course I’m drawn to him—charming, pompous.. HG said I’m not appealing to a greater based on traits/maybe because he thinks I’m intellectually sub par—but that can’t be an absolute and I know I’m not wrong. He sails around like a shark and I know he knows exactly how he operates. I also know things about him. Many things. But he hugs like a champ and always caves for me.. Progress not perfection. I have never identified anyone else as a greater—I am certain he is self aware. Not like HG self aware but he knows what he is in whatever way they do.

          43. SMH says:

            SP, I recently came up as a narc on a test too – can’t remember what it was. Someone mentioned it here and I took it online. I am apparently a happy narc. I do have a lot of narc traits so it doesn’t surprise me but I know I do not have a personality disorder and neither do you! It is healthy to have some narcissistic traits just as it is healthy to have high self-esteem. Now I’m going to take the test you mentioned. Will get back to you on that 🙂

          44. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Yes, SMH, let me now what you get.

          45. SMH says:

            Well, SP, it described me almost to a T. Dislikes authority, fears being controlled, advocates for others, dreams big, struggles to be emotionally honest, optimistic, forms connections with others, shares freely, impatient, insensitive to other’s feelings (not always but I often am).

          46. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Omg, SMH, you are a narcissist! Lol.

          47. SMH says:

            lol SP. I have narcissistic traits but am not a narcissist. You too! haha.

          48. Sweetest Perfection says:

            SMH, I know!!! I got relieved when HG sent the results saying I was an Empath. But I also was scared of being a normal. Being a normal is like being a human character in The Lord of the Rings, sort of like meh…

          49. SMH says:

            SP, I am not sure what a normal is but it sounds boring and I think I would rather be a narc!

          50. blackunicorn123 says:

            Thanks FM1T. I think I probably should. Talking here about my situation has made me realise just how messed up it is. I can’t talk about it in irl and things have crept up on me I suppose. Thank you!! 🤗 xx

          51. Fool Me 1 Time says:


            I fully understand how things creep up and time goes by. 😘

          52. Claire says:

            Oh and the attention factor I was referring to was the narcissist atty—not you! Is is ok to capitalize on this?! It’s just all the extra special stuff is nice..

          53. blackunicorn123 says:

            Deal!!!! 😂

          54. nunya biz says:

            What is it with narcs where you have to “play the fool to fool the fool?” I realize I’ve done this. Not to that extreme, of course, blackunicorn. But now I realize this is very odd. I bring it up because it is incredibly tedious and I think there should be a name for it or something (HG?).
            It is no way to live, so I feel for that. But I do think it is related to some narcissism facade thing? For example, my work client was constantly trying to manipulate me in conversation and I needed to keep it professional. And I wasn’t ready or willing to terminate him as a client so I had to keep blowing off the manipulative tactics, pretend I didn’t see them. He was kind of foolish about it and thought he wasn’t transparent I think, which made the whole thing more tedious for me until I lost my patience.
            There are also examples of narcs at work and romantic interactions where this happens. I’ve had what I feel like is a separate, unspoken interaction happening that I wonder if others can pick up on. I’m wondering, it seems like this would happen with any type of healthy flirtation, but like an N can go to a whole other level of forcing and drawing things out.

            By the way, there is a plot of this sort of thing on the show Nurse Jackie, where her secret lover finds out she’s married and intentionally befriends her husband. Really tenuous.

          55. nunya biz says:

            *picturing HG in a Target*

            I loved the empath detector. Might do narc detector again soon or something else I have questions about.

          56. HG Tudor says:

            I look forward to assisting you further Nunya.

        2. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

          Dear Black Unicorn. I left you a message yesterday, but my computer glitched, and I guess it did not go through. I remember saying that your story is unbelievable. That you can not trust this person. That I hope you have a plan B, in case this person spews the truth out when you least expect it. Or is dropping clues like water drop torture to your husband. I can not imagine what a plan B would be, but I think it would have to deal with the worse case scenario. I know that HG is a GEN and has heard it all from all his consults, and his own experience, and the court system and is not surprised with anything that these other narcissists will try to pull. I would consult on a plan B against this guy, and even think about what could happen in the marriage and plan for that as well, if you can not gaslight effectively with your husband, if this guy starts laying subtle hints to your husband. Also, husbands can plot as well. They can start hiding and moving assets and collecting data as well, and act on it a few years later while acting now as if nothing is going on in their mind. Men are raised to be logical and practical that way. They do not rush to show their cards, like many women do. I am not making a value judgement. It is just a heads up. So, I said some other things on the other post, but I guess it was lost. If ever I was in a situation where I was practically a hostage to this dystopian person, I would run screaming to HG, and hope he is not on vacation or incommunicado at the time. HG is so intellectual and clever and smart and he takes pride in outsmarting these dangerous clowns. I am sure you have a plan B, but I do feel alarmed and I am posted to you a message, again. Perhaps you have consulted already on this. There is safety in a multitude of counsel, says a wise proverb.

          1. lisk says:

            “Also, husbands can plot as well….They do not rush to show their cards….”

            I never even thought of that aspect.

            I hope there is a solution to this that saves the marriage.

          2. blackunicorn123 says:

            Hi PSE, thank you for sending through again, because I did not receive your first message. Thank you too for your concern, I am very touched. You raise some really good points – my husband is VERY good at playing the longer game and I could imagine him laying his own traps and Plan Bs, whilst carrying on as normal. I do worry about that, and whether narc is subtly smearing me to him.
            My only defence is to smear him back, he’s just separated from his IPPS, but they have a child together who I know he will use as a battleground. I can let her know he was sniffing around me the entire time of their relationship, which may give her strength to fight his machinations. The only downside to that is it hurts her and the child. I don’t have many options really.
            I have thought about what I would do if it all blows up, in terms of creating a new life. I am as prepared as I can be.
            It all boils down to the fact I cannot trust this person, as you have pointed out. I can’t. So I will always be on alert and have background anxiety.
            Thank you again PSE, I am grateful for your thoughts and concern 🤗

          3. Fool Me 1 Time says:

            You have many on here that care and think of you often. 😘💞

          4. blackunicorn123 says:

            Thank you FM1T…back at ya!! Xx

          5. Dear Black Unicorn. For your plan B, you will have to allow HG to help you bring all your Narcissist traits to the forefront. This is War. You will have to hold down a lie, if you have to. Make sure for your consult you bring everything you know about this dangerous person. Name, address, birth date, license plate, ss#, his resume, linked in profile, facebook page, careers, etc, if you can find it, or get it from him under some helpful guise, etc. Also, what intimate info. on you that you will have to counter, such as if you have a secret tattoo, or anything different about your body, etc., any locations you were at, together, and you need an excuse for everything he may say to your husband all worked out! Even if, one day soon, you have to walk out `accidentally` partially dress when he is with your husband at your house, so that your husband knows he he has seen a lot of your body. He loses his old evidence at that point. Including what you know about his IPPS, and if he believes someone exposed him to her. Because he mentioned that to you, that he thinks someone outed him to her secretly, even if he did not say that to you. And therefore he is retaliating. A lot is fair in War, even lying about him, and he has declared War on you by ensnaring your husband. You have to paint him as insane, a psycho, a con, a liar, and vindictive. And that he told you a couple of years ago, that his secret was that he was crazy, but you laughed it off. But now, you remember he said that and now you are his target. You have to have a story ready for all of his potential damage to you. For example, he knew about your tattoo, because you discussed it in front of him with someone else ( a female), because you were not concerned, because you thought he was gay, or you were surprised that he was standing next to the 2 of you, etc. And, of late, that he thought that you called his IPPS he told you, because he thought you were the only one who knew about his activities, but you swore to him, it was not you, and he said if he found out it were you, he would take you down, and he said has done it before, and he laughed and you forgot about that, but you see he is a psycho now, and he never was joking about that. Regarding your Husband: Many men absolutely will not accept infidelity. Life is not a fairy tale of love, hugs and forgiveness. Regarding Infidelity: The law is on their side. Society is on their side. Religion is on their side, and you can not make anyone forgive you. This dangerous guy does not deserve all this from you. You have to outsmart him with a well thought out Plan B. So please get as many facts together as you can so that HG can create a full battle plan for you. You have to tell him everything, even `embarrassing things`, for the best plan to be created, and the sooner you work on the plan, the better in this situation. And implant the plan deep into your mind. HG is an Intellectual Warrior. The best kind!

          6. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Holy shit, PSE! HG and you could rule the world!

          7. SMH says:

            Wow, PSE. That is truly some brilliant advice right there. I would never be able to come up with a quarter of that.

    2. lisk says:

      Yes, I read about that and can almost feel your stuck-ness, BU123.

      Have you ever thought of just plain opening up to your husband and admitting to the affair?

      I understand it wouldn’t be pretty. It could disempower your narcx, I am pretty sure (HG may disagree). It could also destroy your marriage, of course. Or it could set your marriage on a better course if it is not already ruined by this hell you are going through.

      One way or another, it seems like something has to give.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        By executing the threat yourself this would remove its power from the narcissist, of course there is a collateral consequence. You would be better served by imposing no contact and on the basis that the narcissist is Mid Range remembering the logic applicable to threats issued by Mid Range Narcissists which I have explained previously.

    3. Chihuahuamum says:

      Hi blackunicorn…that sounds stalkerish and like a form of blackmail.

      1. blackunicorn123 says:

        Hi Chihuahuamum – yes, and that is what it feels like too. I feel trapped. It’s not pleasant and I really struggled with it for the first couple of years, but I’m resigned to it now. HG is right, death seems to be the only way to get rid of him (hopefully his and not mine or my husbands). It’s like a permanent shadow over my life.

        1. Sweetest Perfection says:

          Bku, I have also fantasized with a car accident, you are not alone…you, me, the queen of England…

          1. blackunicorn123 says:

            Maybe if we all wish hard enough..?!!

        2. Claire says:

          A large shadow! I hope for death too, although I’m sure I’ll be the first to go. It always seems to work that way. His cholesterol and blood pressure were ever so slightly elevated though—I could bank on some disease process perhaps..

          1. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Claire mine should be dead of cirrhosis of the liver and/or any STD right now, one can only hope.

          2. Claire says:

            Cirrhosis is awful, just awful. Especially when they go into a DIC state. Bleeding from all orifices. Ugh. It is slow and miserable though so there is that!

          3. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I don’t actually wish that to anyone, I mentioned it because narc drinks way too much.

          4. Claire says:

            Sweetest—It’s a horrible death. I had a patient once that struck me as profound and the vision has always stayed with me. I’ve forgotten many things over the years but never her. Early 30’s—alcoholic death. It was awful. I wouldn’t wish it logically because I wouldn’t want my kids to have this vision of their dad. Not because I care about him though.

          5. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I don’t want a slow death for him because knowing myself, I would want to help him, his IPPS, their pets, and everyone in between. Car accident. Quick and without attachments. Unless the pets or wife are traveling with him. Mmm. This is getting too complicated.

          6. Claire says:

            It’s ok that it’s complicated! Can a tsunami affect one person from a puddle of water at the foot of their driveway?

          7. blackunicorn123 says:

            Haha, a nice sloooooowwwww death!!

          8. Claire says:

            I’m glad I’m not the only one with such thoughts! Beaten just till the point of survival!

          9. blackunicorn123 says:

            Claire – You were beaten, or you feel beaten? Either way, it’s awful.

          10. Claire says:

            Not a true beating. No was never beaten.

          11. blackunicorn123 says:

            Claire, I’m glad you weren’t x

          12. Claire says:

            Kinda wish I had been. I would have sensed it was time to go..

        3. empath007 says:

          Do you ever wish you would have told your husband Black Unicorn?

          Chances are he would side with you and not the narc friend. But if this has been going on for a few years… that could make it much trickier I suppose. Sounds like an awful circumstance to be in because the narc is now infecting your husbands thoughts as well. Do you fear he will expose the affair to him to punish you?

          1. blackunicorn123 says:

            Hi E007 – I did consider telling him once, at the beginning, when the guilt was consuming me…and before I knew my narc was a narc. I considered it again once I did know he was a narc, because I didn’t want the threat hanging over me….but, what stopped me both times is the knowledge my marriage wouldn’t survive my confession, so to deal with it, I view it as my karma, the price I’ve had to pay for doing what I did.
            Yes, I do have a fear that if I piss him off (real or imagined) that he will retaliate with this. I try to be as bland and as Grey Rock as I can around him, to the point I won’t let my husband kiss me hello or hug me, when narc is around, in case he gets “jealous”. It’s pathetic really, but better safe than sorry.

          2. lisk says:

            I do understand how you’re stuck, BU123.

            But when you say something like this,”the knowledge my marriage wouldn’t survive my confession,” I find it more difficult to sympathize or even empathize with you. Instead, I feel for your husband.

            You are the only one with this “knowledge” (which seems very unfair), so basically your marriage is a lie.

            Why wish to survive a lie?

          3. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Lisk, I’m in the same situation and I cannot answer for Black unicorn, but I’m gonna answer from my own point of view. The fact that I cheated on my husband doesn’t mean I don’t love him. The narc took advantage of a very fragile situation (the death of someone I deeply loved) to become my “special friend” and convince me that he loved me, and I believed I loved him too. I was foggy and confused. I ended things very fast, like BKU. But the reason why I don’t tell my husband is because I was cheated on in the past and the pain is excruciating, not to mention the level of distrust -understandably- and very few couples survive that. I want to keep my marriage because I love my husband and I consider myself a human being that commits errors like everyone else. I am giving myself the opportunity to move on. And I’m not gonna allow anyone to judge me for that. The narc never told his wife he cheats on her and I am not gonna be the sacrificial lamb that loses everything while he continues to pretend to be happy. In this blog, I have definitely learned to accept other views and to be open, because life is not a straight line for everyone.

          4. lisk says:

            Thank you for your response, Sweetest Perfection.

            I can definitely understand from your point of view. And I can see why you would want to do all you can to protect your husband from the pain that you have felt in the past and to protect your marriage.

            In a way, my point of view is also coming from a painful place where I have been cheated on in the past, all the while knowing/intuiting what was going on but never being able to prove it completely (I was able to prove only certain aspects of the cheating). I wish I would have been able to know then so that I could have full knowledge and make a decision based on ALL the information that existed at the time.

            What I am hearing both you and BU123 say is that it is “my” marriage, not “our” marriage. There *is* a fog on your marriages, and your husbands maybe know, maybe intuit. However, you might also be cheating yourselves, because you’re really not even getting your real husbands.

            My guess is that you may think I am being judgmental. Perhaps. Ultimately, I am coming from that empathic place where the empath wants to know and to understand.

            I also see myself here as analyzing and logically assessing these particular situations where the husband is in the land of unknowing.

            I conclude that narcissism can really fuck things up on so many levels.

          5. blackunicorn123 says:

            Hi Lisk – I would have to give a similar answer to SP. I was also taken advantage of and I’m not proud of it. I don’t want to tell him for the same reasons as SP. I made a huge mistake, why should he suffer for that? I’m paying the price now, not him, and I would prefer that to hurting him.

  45. brynnstar says:

    Went with financial constraints here, like that was my most practical concern, but. The primary reason I failed over and over at implementing no contact is simply that I loved him. I hated the thought of abandoning someone I truly and deeply loved. It took years and three failed attempts to get out for that reason, and if I’m being honest I really only ever was able to get started on no contact in earnest after I had been replaced.

    I guess that arguably fits under guilt, like it’s understandable one might feel guilty for leaving someone they love or loved. But. It feels distinct to me.

  46. Mila says:

    It’s. Combination of the child together, giving her a father and not having her hate me for pushing him
    Away. It’s also self doubt and fear of him seeking more revenge through the legal system like he has already done so my thought is that if I try and maintain an amicable
    Situation then I can try and keep him
    Neural but as you know this is not possible.

    1. Nymphedora says:

      Mila, you are not alone. Trying to keep the status quo by keeping the situation amicable. If not for anything else, then to show the children that one parret can manage to be normal, civil and without conflict.
      My narc is a big fan of trying to use the system through manipulation. I always expect the next letter from the legal system calling me to yet another court appointment. May be a couple of years between, by it always comes. I use to fear them, but don’t really anymore. Just annoyd that I once again have to send my time preparing with lawyers and such. Trying once again to explain the true nature of my x.
      You know, this last christmas I temporarely split up with my current husband. We had been totaly renovating a house for at whole year, and the stress had gotten to us, but that’s not the point. We wen’t to live with friends for a whole, while figuring everything out.
      Pr. law I had to inform my x narc, that we had switched adresses so I did in a purely informative text. This was only a few months after I had shot down his lattest court attack.
      You know what he did……… He wrote me the most cotton candy sweet message about how sorry he was to hear about our breakup, if there was anything he could do for me, how he meant it as I was the mother of our children bla bla bla.
      Knowing full well what he is, I simply replied “no thanks. Nothing is set in Stone yet.” Those two texts, that was my whole conversation with him.
      Two days after that, he apparently put on his Facebook that he planned to commit suicide. The police were called, he turned them away. A few days after that he apparently called a friend, again stating the same. The friend called the police and again he turned them away.
      We are not Facebook friends, nor do we share any, I made shure of that.
      Only reason I know all this, is because the police made a rapport to childprotectionservices, as they knew he had children and come januar I got called in to be informed.
      Them: “Are you aware…….” Me: “That my x husband is crazy? Yes I am well aware.” Them: “You seem to have a handle on it.” Me: “Well, does anyone ever. But I try my best…..”

      Sorry for the long post, but I just sort of find the whole thing both tragic and funny. That a hoower of that magnitude just sort of fell apart for him, because it all depended on his belive that I was somehow reading his facebook and would what…… come to his rescue??

      I have offcourse not spoken a word to him since the cotton candy text, but am told that he is currently showing a lot of fury towards me and refuses to be in the same room as me in regards to the kids.

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