Big Little Lies : Ed MacKenzie

Ed MacKenzie

Normal ? Standard Empath? Middle Mid Range Narcissist?

What do you think and argue your case in the comments!

What is Ed MacKenzie?

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364 Comments

  1. For the record You definitely have points and you write arguments and thoughts very clearly.

    I’m sure most readers and HG see that both You and K are Quality debaters, MommyPino,
    even if K convinced me in this particular matter.

    1. Thank you cb. To be honest, I’m not concerned about trying to convince anyone. I have said repeatedly that I respect other perspectives. I didn’t even consider this as a debate. I was just being honest and expressing why I understood Madeline for being angry at Bonnie and why I would be upset as a parent. I was blindsided by the asshole and tattletale. I was under the impression that there was mutual respect and acceptance so I was not afraid to express my opinion. In fact you can look that I even said I love you to K before I have read the other comment. Well don’t I feel foolish now. Thank you for your kind words.

      And for the record, I have never betrayed anybody’s trust nor have I exposed anyone’s secret that was shared to me. I have also said that I would only inform the parent if I’m sure that the parent is not abusive and therefore the whole possibility that K said of endangering the child is not something that I would allow either. But I guess I am automatically a bad guy because I’m pro life and refuses to take someone to Planned Parenthood. I just have to say, if my participation is asked for, I do have the right to decline if what is being asked of me is against my conscience. And also nobody who knows me in real life would ever ask me to help them get abortion because everyone who knows me knows clearly where I stand. I’m not mysterious like HG. And if someone is not sure, all that they have to do is ask me and I will tell them the truth.

      Thank you again cb. And I really don’t mind when people are Pro Choice or have had abortion. I understand that women in some countries have that right. I respect that. It’s just the mockery of what I said I stand for that has offended me. I can say that I was very careful to be respectful each time I responded, except for the knee jerk response that I sent. It’s not about winning points for me. I just got offended for being mocked.

      1. Yeah my LMR punched me in the face once “in his sleep” . He thought it was hilarious too. Good times. My LMR one time grabbed my arm right enough to leave bruises. He also “accidentally “ threw the dog’s stick (more like a friggin club) at my back. That hurt. He also found that funny. And other such “accidents”.

        My friend had a narc who would pinch her and cause damage that wasn’t too bad but didn’t show with clothing on.

        1. WokeAF
          LMRNs are prone to violence and, sometimes, I confuse them with ULNs. My MMRN’s mother would pinch his leg under the dinner table. She was very controlling and sneaky. They hide it better.

  2. I feel like I’m the only one not watching this. Can I get it on prime or do I have to have HBO?

    1. Mercy,
      I can’t watch it. I watched the first episode and it was great. When I sought out clips of additional episodes from season one and saw Perry being mobbed by the group of women, I could not take it. I was imagining the horror and fear he may have experienced. I just can’t do it right now. Besides, the actor, Alexander Skarsgard is too gorgeous to kill off. What a waste! I know he is a physical abuser, but I am strictly referring to the actor. How’s that for some shallow appreciation of physical appearance!

      1. E&L, he is yummy IMO too. I like to think he’s a good guy IRL. I’d eat him with a spoon. (There I go again…sex on the brain.)

  3. HG , don’t “normals” have some empathic traits, and even some narc traits, ?
    How does one differentiate between a normal, and an emphatic person who’s not an empath ?

    1. I struggled with this too WokeAF to begin with. So I spent my time learning about Ns first, then empaths. then eventualy the normals plus those who are narcissistic become clearer. Well that’s how it worked for me.

      they have clear boundaries so they won’t go out of their way to help you but if its not out of their way etc they’ll still give you a hand. Plus they don’t ST you like an N would.

      that’s just a couple of simple tips anywya. there is a fair bit more too it than that.

      Maybe HG could do an article on the ‘normals’ to help us distinguish. I appreciate this website is about Ns but in order for us to determine someone is not an N, it would be pretty helpful.

      1. God my grammar is shocking when I type without thinking and don’t bother to review what I’ve written (which is most of the time)! Some of my sentences don’t even make sense to me!

      2. Alexis I feel ya
        I lived in Toronto (downtown) from birth to age 31
        From age 31-44 I’ve been on a small new age /hippie/farmer island in BC , population of 10,000
        -and I swear there’s only narcs and empaths and super empaths LMAO

        The normals tend to flee rather quickly I suspect
        So I don’t have a lot of normal-case-studies that I can find IRL lol

        I can barely remember life when even I (a standard magnet) would walk past the homeless without a second thought . (Never mind taking them a sandwich or home for the night Lol!)

        1. Gosh Woke! Could you not move from there? I don’t know your particular circumstances but it doesn’t sound terribly healthy.

          Its on a completely different scale but I used to go to a place I referred to as ‘the watering hole’ some time ago now. I called it this because my N was likely a MR who thought he was a greater and he loved the PDs and this place was full of them. I’d estimate 80% PD 18% empath with at most 2% normals. He would target the empaths too, but there were a whole range of intellects at this place so he had plenty of people he could manipulate and he thrived on it!

          It was a great observational experience.

          In my work environment I come across many Ns too but there is far more of a balance between all the different personality types so its much healthier.

          Are you happy where you live Woke?

          1. Oh I’m super happy! It’s a magical place. It’s known as such. Nobody had to lock their doors, the crime rate is near zero, children never go missing, and if you’re in trouble the whole community comes to help you. Im pretty sure we aren’t quite in the same dimension as the rest of the world lol.
            But it’s a very strong-female-empath island.,. And weak male narcs love it bc of that. ESP the victim cadre bc the women, not knowing what they are, adopt them in. Then when they get tossed, another empath is ready to adopt them bc the population is low on singles between 25-50
            Mostly we all get along. We are protective of each other and our island , and I’ve inky once seen a pregnant teen in our high school in 15 years – the kids are well nurtured by a fairly emotionally evolved community- for the most part. Shit happens of course. But for example if you get called out for a rape – you’d be visited by several good ole boys who will give you a good beating and then escort you off the island .
            I love it here. Even the narcs have to lay low bc everyone knows if you fuck up too bad.

          2. Ah that sounds a bit better. I’m pleased you’re happy there WokeAF 🙂

          3. Alexis I would like to add , to my comment about the almost zero Preg rate in our high school – I’m quite defin sure there are abortions. It’s just that they are highly educated on birth control and other options, and they’re shown that’s there’s a really big life for them outside high school. I’ve only seen one full term, kept the baby pregnancy in 15 years is all. It’s got a running student body pop of 500 so that’s pretty good. It’s also super LGBTQ positive. Just in my daughters friend group I knew one female-male trans that after high school decided to stay female physically after high school, one that went through with hormones, one female that identifies as a-sexual, and one non-binary.
            It’s a good place to live 95 percent of the graduates leave the island to seek their education, or work , in other places of the province or the world, and a good portion come back in their late 20’s or 30’s to raise their own kids here.
            It’s a tourist destination so it’s expensive to live here – but I live in a cottage literally across the street from the ocean and as a single mom I can afford it here if I live without many materialistic goods. It’s worth it.
            A large portion of our pop is over retirement age , and that’s where you find more “normals” I suppose, but empathic normals even still.
            A huge portion of the women 17-60 dress and look similar to Bonnie. And behave very similarly. We have our share of rich Renatas and Gordons but they mostly live here in the summer in their vacation homes.
            We have a number of Nathan’s and lower functioning Nathans who hook up w the Bonnie’s.

  4. I didn’t think you were being provocative, MP, just something I responded to. Your opinion about M and Ed is shared by others, I’m sure. Everyone isn’t going to feel the same way.

    My reason for saying something about it is because I have for some time felt that women get more sexual pressure than men do to be “pleasing” in order to “keep a man”. I used to believe that women should provide sex and would say it out loud, so I get the opinion. I’ve changed my mind. I feel that my doing something like that is actually leaning more toward a manipulation than a healthy sex life if it becomes out of a sense of obligation rather than desire and that empaths can tend to do that. Men rarely get the same pressure to “perform” once married. And I really do think that far more pressure is put on being faithful and almost none on an ability to actually emotionally communicate, which is considered a woman’s problem to deal with if he doesn’t. And when I look at it I see them as equal issues.
    It’s just something I have a strong opinion about.

    1. Hi NunyaBiz, I wasn’t sure if my statement was provocative or not. It wasn’t my intention to be provocative and I’m glad that you said it didn’t provoke you.
      My dad’s wife I think was a MRN and her dad whom I think was an Upper MRN used to tell her that he wished that she was a boy and didn’t allow her to study to be a doctor because she was a woman and just had her enrolled in Stanford to study Home Economics (this was in the fifties I think). My dad and her first two children were girls and she wanted to keep trying until they have a boy. My third sibling was born (a boy) and she told my dad that they don’t need to have sex anymore because they already have a boy. He tried so many times to make her interested like buying her beautiful nightgowns only for her to get mad at him for disrespecting her by buying nightgowns like that. Fast forward almost twenty years my sex deprived dad met my mom, had an affair and had me. Fast forward 26 years I moved in with my dad to the US and he tells me his story and makes me promise to him that someday when I get married I should do two things: 1. always appreciate my husband’s gifts to me even if I thought that the gift was ugly or not my style, just look at his effort and desire to make me happy and 2. do not refuse sex especially when my husband has been loving towards me.
      That’s really my background story why I said it’s unfair to stay married to someone and not have sex with them. Why stay married to someone you’re not attracted enough to have sex with? I think that my dad was handsome by the way but for some reason she seemed to think that sex was dirty (according to his story). But I totally understand that there are many various reasons for married couple to not have sex together. In mine and my husband’s case, I made this very bad decision (which was highly suggested to my by my older stepdaughter was which I regret listening to) to co-sleep with our two year old. Now she owns our bed and we can only do it in the couch when both kids are asleep (we out blankets over it so the couch is clean!) and it has become very seldom and hard to find opportunities to be able to do it. We both love sex and the co-sleeping decision was really bad.
      I do agree that the pressure is more expected from women. I think that most people seem unaware of narcissist husbands who withdraw intimacy from the wife during devaluation and cheat. I think that is absolutely unfair as well. I think that it goes for both sex. But I may be completely wrong here but for couples that do not cheat, I think that biologically men seem to need sex more than the woman. It just seems for my personal marriage my husband celebrates more whenever we are going to be able to do it.

      1. See, I guess that’s what I’m saying, and I really don’t mind if we don’t agree on it at all, but I guess I don’t think the man needs sex more. I feel like that’s an idea and not a fact. Also I think sometimes the man is closeted gay or an unadmitted voyeur/ cuckold, has a porn addiction that interferes with intimacy and has no true need for physical sex or has PE that he won’t address, has secrets or 800 other things. Could be reverse for a woman also.

      2. NunyaBiz, just to avoid possible confusion, my question on the why stay married while not having sex was not directed towards you and was a rhetorical question inspired by my dad’s story. I understand that there are issues in your marriage and one big issue is that he doesn’t give you the connection that you need as his wife. I certainly don’t blame you for not wanting sex as I know that I will be the same if I was in your situation. I cannot have sex with someone that I don’t feel I have a loving connection with even if he happens to be my husband. I know that you are not doing it to hurt or manipulate or have power over him. My dad’s wife (if his story was accurate) seemed to do it to have power over him.

        1. Aw thanks, MP. I may yet work on the issue, just taking some time, it’s been too crazy. I just know a lot of couples likely not having sex, some divorcing, some no.

  5. Either a standard or normal with a reasonable split or empathic/narc traits not terribly strong either way. Perhaps leaning more towards empath.

    I don’t feel attracted to him so he’s definitely not an N lol

  6. Season 2, EP. 5
    “This planet is inhabited by ‘nutf**ks!”

    Hahahahaha!

    We feel your pain Ed.
    You’re one of us.
    We’ve all said similar words about the Ns in our lives!

    (Not about HG.
    Obviously.)

    1. Not Ed, I meant Nathan speaking about Ed!
      Apologies to all for the error.
      (I need to eat. I can’t function with low blood sugar).

  7. Quote of The Morning: [`Knowing what we are dealing with is half the battle and using logic is the other half. Understanding really does remove the sting.` ] ~~K

  8. Standard empath. I don’t think he creates drama. He likes females has a job, and seems to go with the flow.

  9. I don’t know yet, MP, I just finished S1E5. I wonder if she will be, my mother in law is so strange, but I will definitely tell you if she is. My mother in law very much likes to talk about legal things and newspaper articles a lot. She’ll read a newspaper article from the clipping she saved out loud to my husband, he hates it. She talks about her death and how it is to be dealt with planning-wise. God forbid it’s a future fake. But she triangulated with it once and she likes to explain the will details, she told my husband in front of me that she has a particular item for each of her three children (she has four children).
    Story is that she used to work at the town hall in the tiny town they grew up in and when people arrived to do random business such as licensing or fines or property what have you’s she would innocently get them to talk about their pets. If they had pets and she had no record she would then send them violation notices for pet licenses. I’ll see if Meryl Streep is like that, lol.

  10. I was leaning towards mrn because of his victim/martyr attitude. However, he seems too normal with narcissistic and empathic traits. An mrn would have never let his wife go on about her ex all the time and pretty much run the household he wouldn’t run after her storming out to see if she was alright either.
    I am just watching the first season again to familiarize my self with characters again before I watch the second season.

  11. I only watched a few episodes yesterday . I saw him reject her in bed , I saw him giving her a silent treatment, I saw him purposely hurting her in front of another woman at lunch . Passive aggressive stuff . Mid ranger ? I would need to see more .

      1. Yeah I think he’s a normal.. I wouldn’t say his reactions are bad for what he’s been through at all.

      2. Yeh I’m watching a previous episode and he seems concerned and loving soo. I need to see more .

          1. I think he likes controlling her and watching her suffer , and the silent treatment he gives her when she is suggesting a couples retreat …and then makes fun of her along with the her daughter as his only response. This is not normal …sorry….It’s wimpy passive aggressive ..and a power play. He even says he was acting one way …and now decided to act another way …since it didn’t get the response he wanted. ( when she walked up to the he was having lunch

          2. I think that’s true, mollyb5. I see a mean streak in him that I don’t see as much in Madeline. She seems more reactive and insensitive. He seems more manipulative to me.
            What do you mean “sent accidentally”?

  12. I think Ed is a normal. In a chat with Nathan he said he was bullied and after years he wanted not to be victim anymore. It souned Ilike a threat but to it was defending or standing his grounds. All claim I am wrak but od I have to I willa defend myself but does not act violently. In my opiniom his emphatic and
    narc traits arę in balance

  13. It seems that binge watching the first season was not enough. I need to get the second one now.
    HG, have you seen the second season too?

  14. Off topic but i dont usually like beards but i think ed looks better with his beard than he did at the party.

  15. I could see how some of Ed’s behaviours read as ‘mid-ranger-ish’ but I’m leaning more towards normal because he doesn’t exhibit much jealousy regarding Madeline’s involvement in pursuits outside of the family and isn’t at all controlling about whom she sees etc., with regard to friends. I don’t think most mid-rangers could stomach that and they would lay the guilt-trip on thick for that. Although Ed does do a bit of a pity-play in addressing his needs in the relationship – I don’t think it’s over the top or unwarranted.
    He does come across as overly empathetic; so I’m saying ‘normal.’

    1. WC, You make some good points. I started out thinking normal, but his passive aggressive elements sent me over to the MMR conclusion. I would not be surprised to discover I am wrong though. I look forward to your thoughts on season 2 as well.

      1. Thank-you FYC – maybe l’ll have to pay closer attention AND see season 2 before drawing a conclusion.

    2. Hi who cares…good pt about how ed isnt jealous or controlling over madelines outside pursuits thatd definitely be a telltale red flag of npd.

      1. Thanks CM, yes he seems a bit resigned to the fact that is just how she is (involved in a lot things) but doesn’t (outwardly) appear overly bothered by it…but I haven’t seen season 2.

  16. I’m only on season one still. He sort of reminds me of my son’s father who is a Middle Midranger, but I haven’t seen too much narcissism yet to point it out as a defininant

  17. S1:E2

    Statements made by Ed to Madeline during the beach scene:
    1. For every person there’s The One. Case in point, you’re my one.
    2. You don’t really seem to adore me. (Where Is The Love? by The Black-eyed Peas)
    3. Look, I may not be the good-looking adventure ride, okay, but there is something to be said for being there, for being truthful, for somebody you can steadfastly count on. (he is the good guy, the martyr; this is the typical mid-ranger Facade and pity play in action)

    S1:E2
    Nathan and Ed meet to discuss the planned parenthood issue and
    Nathan makes a back-handed compliment regarding Ed being Mr. Sensitive and today’s standard bearer for the evolved man.

    Ed feels attacked and comes back with: Right, so you are the guy who like’s to fish and hunt and I’m Mr. Girly-Man. (defensive; he rewrite’s what Nathan says)

    Nathan: That’s not what I meant. I thought it’d be indelicate to bring it up with Maddie. That’s why I am bringing it up with you. (first line of defence: denial, Second line of defence: deflect)

    Ed: Well, that sounded like a threat, Nathan. Are you threatening me?
    (WTF!? Where’s the threat? Ed is rewriting the script)

    Ed is a MMRN and that is how I am voting.

      1. Thank you FYC
        After I read your comment, I thought: FYC made a damn good analysis! It is very clear that you are paying attention at HGU.

        1. Lol K, Thank you so much. I am learning from the best here and I’m really motivated to learn and be able to apply all of it in real life. I have appreciated your help in the process.

          1. My pleasure FYC!
            Keep up the good work. Applying it IRL makes a huge difference because you can see it all unfold, like magic, before your eyes. Sometimes, when I am dealing with a narcissist, I think: Oh shit, I just got gas lighted! Ok…. noted. Let’s move it along now.

          2. K, It really is starting to come to light. Once I became more aware of the tactics and behaviors they become more visible, and avoidable. Knowing also takes the sting out of wanting to believe they could be any different. They can’t. So it’s OOCGE for a happily ever after!

          3. FYC
            Knowing what we are dealing with is half the battle and using logic is the other half. Understanding really does remove the sting.

            Narcissists are ubiquitous and unavoidable so the goal is Zero Impact. Observe only, cease giving energy; it’s truly a wonderful place to be.

    1. K,

      I voted normal. Now I want to go back and watch it again to see what I didn’t pick up on. I had an MMRN and he was always a dick.

      1. Sophia
        During S1:E1, I thought Ed was an empath but I quickly changed my mind during S1:E2.

        Ed uses a lot of pity plays, he’s provocative, indifferent and, occasionally displays contempt. Nathan acts like a dick so I think he may be a LMRN but I have to look more closely at him.

    2. Interesting analysis, K. I did not see Ed as a narcissist but rather as an empath married to a MR narcissist. I must admit I did not quite follow everything that was said in that scene between Ed and Nathan but I interpreted Ed’s reaction to Nathan as driven by his jealousy because his wife, Madeleine, seems to triangulate him with Nathan.
      The only instance I picked up Ed was looking at other woman was when he makes a comment to Bonnie C about sweat in women and I interpreted as his libido interfering because he is sex deprived.
      I observed much more narcissistic traits in Madeleine (entitlement, control, anger, explosion) than in Ed, who seems to be a reasonable kind of insecure guy attached to his wife.
      Now, characters often change from one season to the other. I believe it is done to create a surprise sensation in the public. It may very well happen to Ed’s character during season 2, which I have not seen yet. But for me, the Ed in season 1 is not a narcissist.
      It is very interesting to see all the different perspectives.

      1. Lou
        I love the different perspectives. It forces you to think.

        Ed comes across as Mr. Nice Guy, that’s the MMRN facade at work, and he pouts (sulks) and has a “woe-is-I” aura about him. He’s the martyr.

        The scenes between Ed and Nathan spiral out of control quickly and I thought: WTF is going on between these two. I think the interaction was The Narcissist’s Twin Lines of Defence at work. Ed’s jealousy and checking out other women were Red Flags.

        Madeline looks fabulous but she has low control over her hostility, jealousy and fury so she may be a LMRN.

        1. K, I started watching season 2 last night (only first episode). So far, I have Madeleine as a MMR and Ed as a standard empath and have no idea what Nathan is. My opinion may change as I gather more information. We’ll see. But I do agree it is interesting to see how people arrive at different results and see different things.

    3. Hi k…i couldnt help but laugh at this conversation between ed and nathan 😄
      Then later nathan says to madeline…look over there at how eds looking at me i think he wants to kill me 🤣

      1. Chihuahuamum
        I laughed when Ed accused Nathan of threatening him; it just came out of left field.

        Nathan is provocative; he’s always stirring the pot. The Wig scene at Annabella’s party was bad. That was a lesser move.

        1. Hi ki….i dont remember the wig scene at annabellas party? Ill have to go back and look.
          It was hilarious watching how jealous nathan was of eds performance and vice versa lol everythings a competition between those two.
          Then the triangulation when nathan stuck his head in the car wondow to let madeline know bonnie was performing at the party and that she was really talented 😄

          1. Chihuahuamum

            S2:E4

            During Annabella’s Disco birthday party Ed is behaving like the Incredible Sulk and Nathan tries to sympathize with him but Ed tells Nathan to shut up, and Nathan responds by pulling Ed’s wig over his eyes and then the two of them get into a physical fight!

            Renata breaks it up and Ed says: He started it! (blame shift)

            Nathan says: I was just joking. (glosses it over; gas lighting)

            Then both Ed and Nathan downplay it by saying: We were just playing (gas lighting).

            No apology, no accountability, no shame, no embarrassment, they display a complete lack of empathy, insight and boundaries. It’s a child’s birthday!!!

            The Narcissist’s Twin Lines of Defence sprang up so fast, it made my head spin!

          2. K….Wow i did not see that scene! I mustve forwarded past it ill have to go back and look thx

          3. My pleasure Chihuahuamum
            You are gonna love it. Ed’s got the Incredible Sulk going on and he’s trying to draw negative fuel from Madeline. She walks away and then Ed tries to draw negative fuel from Nathan. Watch how the Twin Lines of Defence presents.

            Keep in mind that Renata has her facade up and running because she is the Hostess so her fury is capped and she is getting well fuelled by her guests at the party.

          4. My pleasure Chihuahuamum

            P.S.
            Note how neither of them apologize to Renata for the fight.

      1. I find the interactions between Nathan and Ed pretty funny. In S2E1 I loved Nathan calling Ed snide because he totally is.

  18. I voted MMRN. I struggled with this one, because Ed seems normal with narcissistic traits, but I think it is his effective facade. These are some of the factors that swayed me towards the MMRN verdict:

    Ed showed insight about MMM’s lingering feelings regarding her divorce with Nathan during their conversation, yet used his insight to annoy MMM with a seemingly passive/aggressive overt friendliness toward Bonnie in the presence of MMM, then denies and deflects when MMM calls him out on his display of ’empathy’ towards Bonnie.

    Ed talks about being bullied and makes a thinly veiled threat to Nathan, but does not carry it out. Instead he toys with Nathan passive/agressively when possible. Both Ed and Nathan seem Ns to me.

    When Ed says he and MMM are over, he does not leave, instead he stays and plays passive/agressivly with her through barbs and silent treatments to the point she asks him to stay or leave, but just do something because she is tired of the indirect actions.

    Ed is quite happy to engage in his performances as Elvis and other characters for attention. I knew a MMRN that like that too.

    Seems to me all of the above is all fuel seeking behavior.

    Lastly, and most telling for me was Ed’s creepy, lecherous staring at women–not just an accidental glance–but prolonged staring. Gross and WTF? What normal does that, much less repeatedly?

    Maybe I am reading too much into these acts, but that is what lead me to the MMRN conclusion.

    1. I agree FYC for all the reasons you listed above.
      I know we’re not voting on cadre but he is clearly cerebral.
      And I think Madeline is a geyser.

      1. Hi TW, This is so challenging. For me, I watched the series last year and am watching this season, so I already had certain impressions, but did not analyze each character. So I’m looking back for specific behavioral clues. Midrange and Normals are hard for me to quickly identify, I really had to think it over, and still don’t know if it’s accurate.

        Everyone has made great observations and we all seem to pick up on different things. I loved the point that K brought up from the therapist comment that Ed’s indifference is a betrayal. I missed that good one.

        1. FYC
          Oh, Ed thought he was so damn innocent! Whiter than white mid-ranger.
          Ha, she got him real good!

          Madeline never really answers the therapist’s question about why she cheated, because Madeline doesn’t know what she is (a narcissist) or that Ed’s fuel is stale.

          1. K, I thought Ed’s exchange with Nathan at the top of last night’s show was very telling. Mary Louise is utterly disgusting. Would like to hear your thoughts on that detective too.

          2. FYC
            Ha ha ha…that whole incident was VERY telling! The hostility between Ed and Nathan is palpable and Nathan was very aggressive at Annabella’s birthday party.

            Mary Louise is smooth and clearly in control. I absolutely hate her!

            The detective has issues. It is very clear that Perry attacked his wife and people have the right to use force to defend themselves or protect others. Sometimes, I think Law Enforcement wants us to lie down, allow ourselves to be raped and then stabbed to death. God forbid you fight back. You will be prosecuted and jailed.

            Bonnie’s appearance at the Police Station is baffling. What a mess!

          3. K, you think that Madeline is a narcissist? I have always been puzzled with some of the things that she did. Like how she treated both Ed and the guy that she had an affair with. But how about when she stopped the car and cried after Jane told her that she was raped? I have also thought that her jealousy of Bonnie is so amazingly immature although I understood her anger over Bonnie taking her daughter to Planned Parenthood without her consent. Although also, legally here in California, Bonnie is under no obligation to inform Madeline because minors can go to Planned Parenthood without their parent’s consent or knowledge and Bonnie just gave the daughter a ride, I thought that if she really was an empath she should have at least gave Madeline a courtesy call. If I was Bonnie I would actually refuse her and tell her that it’s something that she should do with her parents. My stepdaughters tried to used me for triangulation like that but I have always been conscientious of their mom and deferred to her or refused to be a part of it. That is another reason why I thought Bonnie is either a narc or a Co-D who couldn’t say No to her stepdaughter. Oh sorry my comment went all over the place. Back to Madeline, what’s your latest guess, is she a narc or an empath?

          4. MommyPino
            My latest guess: Maddie is either a MMRN or LMRN. Bonnie is still a mystery.

            When Madeline cried re: the rape, that was cognitive empathy and the mid-range facade in action. I have a female MMRN that sometimes cries in front of me. It’s a brilliant manipulation (facade and pity play). Look at me; I am a kind and caring person; be my friend/appliance (and give me fuel).

            If Abigail asked Bonnie for a ride to Planned ParentHood and wanted the trip kept secret from her mother then Bonnie is obligated to honor Abigail’s wishes. Giving Madeline a courtesy call would be a complete betrayal of trust.

            As an empath, I wouldn’t be concerned with who took my daughter to Planned Parenthood, as long as it was my daughter’s choice to do so. Madeline is abusive so I am not surprised that Abigail asked Bonnie for a ride and forcing a child to go to Planned Parenthood with an abusive parent is child abuse and I would never do that to a child. Traumatizing a child like that is completely unethical and abhorrent. I protected a narcissistic child from her narcissistic mother because the NPD child needed help. The mother was totally irrelevant.

            Abusive parents have no rights. The abused child’s rights matter and Bonnie did the right thing.

          5. I don’t think Madeline stopping the car to cry was cognitive empathy or facade. She was alone.

          6. WokeAF
            S1:E3

            Madeline pulling over in her car and crying alone is perceived by the audience as genuine compassion, sadness and caring for Jane, however, those tears are for herself. Mid-range narcissists cry the most, especially the MMRN, and that is what I think Maddie is.

          7. Hi K, I interpreted the stopping of the car and crying as genuine like WokeAF. But we will see how HG interprets the whole Madeline thing. She is very confusing to me. I think that I have posted some observations where she might be a narc or a SE and I would love a clarification from HG because that will help me with my own problems with why it’s hard for me to understand what a SE really is.

          8. MommyPino
            I think Madeline is a Dirty Angel MMRN. She has a fantastic facade; she is involved in school events and the theater and she has deployed fury (cold), pity plays and she cries.

          9. K, “Giving Madeline a courtesy call would be a complete betrayal of trust.”

            I agree.

          10. K and MB, I have a really tough time with the Planned Parenthood thing. I would never want anybody else to take my daughter to Planned Parenthood, especially without my permission. I have a completely different perspective on who is abusive. I think that supporting a child (I assume she is under 18) to auction her virginity off is abusive and much more harmful than a parent who cares and wants to be involved when it comes to their daughter’s reproductive health and choices as a child. This is a Western culture or perspective that I still have a very difficult time accepting. A doctor operating on a child’s bunion needs a parent’s permission but a child can have an abortion which is a major surgery procedure doesn’t and can be taken, encouraged or coerced by people who doesn’t necessarily love them or care about them. It is something that is very difficult for me personally. I don’t know, does that make me a narc? All that I know is that I hope that nobody tests me on that or I will definitely unleash whatever narcissistic fury I might have.

          11. MommyPino
            Ha ha ha….you are not a narc, however, there are many abusive parents out there and they have absolutely no say in their child’s sex life or reproductive rights. The control belongs to the child not the abusive parent.

            If I remember correctly, no one supported Abby’s bid to auction off her virginity and she is college aged so she is an adult. Maddie is abusive and that is why Abby is living with her dad and Bonnie. Also, Nathan is Abby’s dad, too. Abby can go to her father if she chooses but she chose the safest person she knew; Bonnie.

            Teenagers have the right to control their own bodies and get birth control and they should be allowed to get abortions without parental consent.

            Also, keep in mind NPD parents do not love their children so it would be abusive and coercive to involve them.

          12. MP and K, this is a prime example of a difference in perspectives. Perspective is driven by so many factors. A lot of moving parts in there to consider. It’s very interesting to observe.

          13. K and MP the thing that sways me the most away from empath is the way she treats her daughter. She just tells her what to do without real tools for autonomous decision making.

          14. nunya biz
            Madeline is controlling and provocative. She was adamant that Abby was going to go to college. If Abby doesn’t want to go, then that is her choice. She may even change her mind in the next couple of years.

            But Maddie lives in the now and it’s all about control and fuel.

          15. NunyaBiz, great point. That would probably sway me more than the Planned Parenthood outrage. I think that her daughter is screaming for attention from her, just like her husband. I would be nuts to find out that my daughter wants to auction her virginity off, I would be disappointed if she doesn’t want to go to college but the college thing is still her choice. I will try to explain my point of view to her and hopefully it will be enough to change her mind. If it’s not, I will have to accept the fact that she has her own life. But the suctioning the virginity off is non negotiable to me. I will most likely find some way to stop it, by hook or by crook, even the possibility of using legal means. It is something that I believe she will regret and as a child it is my job to protect her.

          16. K, coming into season 2 I’m starting to see more MMR, why doesn’t she care about Bonnie? And the college thing in S2E1 is pretty lame on her part. And I’m starting to see Bonnie as more super. If I was her I’d be mad Madeline lied to the cops first too, that made sense to me. Like she took the choice away and being unable to talk to my husband about it for that reason would really piss me off, that’s stuff where I feel like being honest is the only way out, I mostly hate “lies of morality” it’s a trap usually because choices are always removed no matter what route is taken. The anger stuff I most related to so far was when Jane pushed Renata at the school and when Bonnie pushed Perry. I’ll see if I change my mind about MMM again.

            Ha, I have to tell MP that so far Mary Louise has some similarities to my mother in law. God, ha, you should see some of the appearance similarities. Passive aggressive, I thought ML was funny in the realtor office with Madeline with the trickity tricky double down trick.

          17. nunya biz
            Madeline dislikes Bonnie, because she is seen as eroding her parental control, and Maddie is jealous of Bonnie’s relationship with both Nathan and Abby; competition. The college situation was nuts. Maddie was like a pit bull.

            It’s very common for narcissists to rewrite the story, even to the police, that’s control. They need to control the story line and everyone’s role in it so they take over like a steamroller but they won’t take accountability for anything. I understand the defensive behaviour on both sides.

            Mary Louise is as cool as a cucumber! Passive aggressive to the nth degree!

          18. I saw that as Mmm being salty about her history was Nathan bc he’s a narc , or just a jerk- and basically abandoned his kid then jumps in to play Super Dad suddenly . The resentment at Bonnie is bc he’s in the golden period w her still, or at least matured enough to be a spouse and father- and Mmm and Abby never got that treatment.
            If my teen suddenly was confiding in her narcissistic fathers younger spouse and getting birth control etc- I’d be very hurt too. Angry even.

          19. WokeAF
            Put yourself in your teenaged daughter’s shoes and look at form her perspective. The anger and hurt usually goes away after you do that.

            And parents should ask themselves: Why didn’t s(he) trust me or feel comfortable talking to me about sex? As parent’s do we send mixed messages or are we uncomfortable talking about sex to our children.

            There are myriad reasons why children don’t talk to their parents about birth control. It’s not about the parent; it is about the child. Parents are irrelevant.

          20. Don’t be condescending. As if an empath doesn’t put herself in their children’s shoes lmao GTFOH

            Dude the hurt and anger DID go away for MMM , and quite quickly . As a super , her narc traits would be much higher anyhow . She asked for a courtesy call .

            Have you ever co parented w a narc?
            Or a highly narc-y person?
            It’s maddening . ESPECIALLY when they show up outta nowhere after years and want to play Super dad. Super step mom. After you’ve put the years in as the ONLY parent thru ups and downs for theiR ENTIRE LIFE (for Madeline)

            Yes it’s all about the kids of COURSE and MMM comes to that conclusion quickly and does her very best to let her girl go – give her space – go live w Sudden Super Dad and half his age Super Step Mom – is ok about the birth control , does what’s best for the kid.

            She has a human emotional reaction but she DOES reflect on things.

          21. WokeAF
            Yes, I have co-parented with an ULN and his MMRN wife.

            Children have the right to get birth control WITHOUT their parents knowledge, permission or a courtesy call. Period. And it the parent doesn’t like it, too bad.

          22. My only point is that a well meaning parent can fuck up , esp in this (MM’s) situation , without them being a narcissist. That’s all

          23. Even tho you and so agree on this

            You CAN see that this is an OPINION. Right?

          24. As empaths, we must remember to keep our narcissistic trait of superiority in check.

            Right-fighters are blinded by this.

            Bc we have knowledge on narcs and such,it’s easy to get a boost from adamantly sharing our knowledge in the name of justice and educating others.

            I do it too – and have to check myself bc it annoys the fuck outta me when others do it to me so – yeah , just sayin

          25. WokeAF
            Doctor-patient confidentiality applies to minors and teenagers can be seen by their pediatricians, without their parents present, to discuss and receive birth control and this also applies in the case of attorney-client privilege.

            I recognize children as whole objects who have rights, feelings, and needs just like I do and I respect their rights.

            When warranted, my sense of superiority comes to the fore and, to be honest, I thoroughly enjoy it.

          26. K, it is something that I personally find conflicting. My husband can not operate on a child’s bunion without a parent’s permission but a child can have an abortion which is a major surgery without the parent’s knowledge. What if the abortion ends up with complications? Hopefully they will never encounter a Dr. Gosnell. Abortion is not always a safe procedure.

          27. MommyPino
            The vast majority of abortions that are performed in the US are safe.

            My girlfriend got pregnant, when we were in high school, and both her parents were abusive LMRNs and she wanted an abortion. She didn’t know what to do, so she hid her pregnancy. By the time she asked me for help, she was five months along. I got her a fake ID, helped her schedule the appointment, pretended I was her mother and called her in sick for school, while another friend drove her to and from the appointments.

            It was a two day procedure that could have been avoided had she had access to birth control or a first trimester abortion.

          28. WokeAF
            Standard Empath, Carrier (Cadre). There are 62 narcissists in my family (mostly lessers) and I grew up with roughly half the total and my twin brother is a narcissist. It was a very abusive environment. Mostly, I focused on survival.

          29. Good god
            Amazing you survived
            That’s horrific

            I’m a magnet standard
            So learning what the others here are helps me understand the different cadres

            I’d have pegged you as a saviour, so now I’m confused. But! Onward and upward ! Lol

          30. WokeAF
            It was horrific and I don’t miss any of them. We can have elements from the other cadres and schools. I agree; it can be very confusing.

            I have made a note of your School and Cadre to help me understand, too. NarcAngel is a Saviour Super Empath if that helps.

          31. K
            I have been confirmed as a Super Empath by HG. The Saviour part has not been confirmed -that was only my feeling (and not a good one) after reading that article. I must consult further on that.

          32. NarcAngel
            Oops! Noted and thanks for letting me know. Ha ha ha…I don’t want to spread rumors on narcsite.

          33. For example on my point about MMM
            -when my daughter was 17 she cane to me to get her on birth control and I did it immediately. I also gave her a quick refresher talk on std’s, lots of hugs and let her know to come to me for anything else. Of course, she was with a lovely boyfriend who’s she’s still with at age 22 – and still not pregnant – and college educated.
            I had her at 22 with no college education. So I get where MMM is coming from on that front also.
            Now, had she gone to her absent narcissistic fathers new 20 something yr old girlfriend to get birth control because she wanted to auction off her virginity – I MIGHT HAVE sone kinda feelings about that.
            Remember, in the end, MMM just requested a courtesy call on big issues
            And supported Abby going to love with her dad – said she was a mature intelligent girl and bound maths her own decisions it something like that. She also backed off on the college thing.
            She defin was being too pushy on her daughter, but it came from a place of love and protection .not narcissism .

          34. WokeAF
            You are a fantastic mother. Safe, nonjudgmental, loving, caring, decent and you didn’t try to talk your daughter out of it (not controlling). You supported your daughter and allowed her to have control over her body. I wish all mothers were like you.

            But you are looking at it from your POV. Try looking at it from Abby’s POV.

            Teenagers will instinctively go to whomever they think is safe and Abby clearly thought Bonnie was the safest person. Both Madeline and Nathan are NPDed and neither of them are capable of love and Maddie is abusive and controlling, which is exactly why Abby left her mother’s home.

            Abby has the right to get BC without her mother’s knowledge/permission and Bonnie is obligated to honor Abby’s rights to do.

            Instead of putting herself in Abby’s shoes, Maddie felt a lack of control/wounding and lashed out at Bonnie for fuel and to assert control and superiority. (Bonnie took the heat; Nathan was a coward who conveniently stayed out of it and he never stuck up for Bonnie)

            Abusive parents don’t have rights or get courtesy calls. They are irrelevant and should be prosecuted and sent to prison for child abuse.

          35. Ok . I think we generally agree on parenting but we just seeing differently when it comes to MMM

            Certainly a leaning experience, this homework!

            I look forward to HG’s answers .

          36. WokeAF
            Ha ha ha….I am looking forward to HG’s answers, too, and, although we disagree about MMM, it’s fun trying to figure everyone out.

          37. So Madeline started the lies to the police about Perry’s death? I have not seen that episode. Why did Bonnie allow it if she is a SE though? Why didn’t she correct Madeline right there? This is just me asking as I have not seen it and I’m trying to understand. This is one of the reasons I voted that Bonnie is a Co D because I thought that if honesty is very important to me I would have not have been a part of the false story to the police and then feel guilty about it. I would have told the police what really happened right there. Of course now I realize that that is not what a Co D is because a Co D is someone addicted to a dynamic with a narcissist in a very masochistic way. Lying to the police about what she did is a major boundary violation and I don’t understand why a SE would allow that.

          38. MP, I’m not sure, I can only express my opinion and perceptions on it, but I understand your reaction about those sexual choice things to be an emotional response, out of fear and love. That makes sense to me because we can feel pain about our children getting outside influence that might not be what’s best. But the truth is your children are influenced by you up until that point and so may never need to look outside the home in those areas.
            Or they might.

            But the way I see it is that what scares me all to death is that my job is primarily to teach my kids to make choices without me BEFORE they move out of the house. I think your kids are much younger than mine, so your perspective might be different. I’m feeling a major time crunch on this issue. I have literally 3 more years to teach my son how to make adult decisions on his own. I am terrified if I did it well enough or not. I will still be able to help him after that IF/WHEN HE LETS ME. And if he doesn’t move out of state or to fucking mars for all the say I have. My daughter I have six years. So when I talk to her about sex I talk to her about making sure she has an authentic connection with someone. I point at other kids playing who’s who’s boyfriend/girlfriend or girlfriend/girlfriend (yes they are doing that in sixth grade) and asking her if it looks like fake “practice’ to her. I don’t tell her when to do it, how or who with. I tell her what to observe and to think about how she feels about it. I don’t think the rest is up to me 100% so I mostly explain and pray.

            The law says they can walk into PP and get birth control in most places whether I like it or not provided they have a ride. Why? Because kids having kids. And if she’s old enough to have sex and get pregnant, she’s old enough to utilize the laws regarding abortion, that’s how biology works. I am not allowed to make that choice for her, though I can make a miserable as hell time trying. I don’t want to go there, so I just keep talking. And if you keep talking when they’re twelve, they might actually have some ok ideas in their head when they are 16. But like I said, I feel my primary role is to teach her how to choose, not what to choose.

          39. NB, I have a different parenting style. It’s very important for me to lay the foundation for their values and I want to make it very strong in a way that they would choose to embrace those values as their own. It doesn’t matter to me if it’s considered by some as very narcissistic parenting. There are some things that I want them to hold very sacred to their very essence. There are things that I believe to be infinitely true. I didn’t see the special project as a teenage drama. If it is my kid, things like that would concern me very much. Mostly it would concern me that they would come up with such an idea and think that it is feasible in the slightest. I don’t want other people encroaching on my parenting of my child. I would hate for my kids to go to someone else instead of me for things like that. I don’t believe that anybody else care about them and love them as much as me and my husband. Of course I plan on establishing such a strong relationship with them that they would naturally choose to confide in me for important things like that instead of other people. But I’m also aware that there are things and influences that are outside of our control and doesn’t serve their best interests and I am fearful of that. It is a chance that I can minimize but will never be able to eliminate. Well anyways my kids are just babies, 2 yr old daughter and 5 yr old boy so I still have plenty of time to prepare. Although right now I don’t feel that I should talk about sex with them yet. They are so pure and innocent right now and I love this stage. Right now I’m just modeling respectful and wholesome loving kisses and hugs with them a lot.

          40. Also NunyaBiz, I think that you and I are coming from different perspectives on Planned Parenthood and it is affecting our responses. It is something that I respect. I am personally not a fan of that outfit for a lot of reasons not related to HG’s blog so I will just refrain from writing them. The thought of my minor child having sex is very difficult for me. Also I grew up in a country where parents have much more control over their kids makes me fearful of my new environment and parenting in this culture that I didn’t grow up in. I grew up in a very family oriented culture and parents are very much respected and deferred to by the children. It is one of those things that I don’t see anything wrong with except in cases of narcissistic parenting. It’s something that I am having a hard time shedding off and probably also very unwilling to let go of.

          41. Oh, and MP as far as the show…
            I didn’t think Bonnie supported the auction at all. She just knew that it was a normal teenage drama issue and she wasn’t informed enough to think properly about it. So she stayed calm and didn’t control her, she explained a logical reason why it wouldn’t work without shaming her. I thought it was really good. Honestly I probably just would have puked like Madeline. That was one of the best scenes.

            And btw, regarding the first time sex issue, if my daughter does end up with the wrong kind of boy and he’s mean to her you have to agree to come bail me out of jail, ok.
            : )

          42. I didn’t indicate my political perspectives on planned parenthood at all, only what is legal. I also thought M’s daughter’s project was misguided and would talk to her about it for a year because she is confused. I also don’t want anyone encroaching on my parenting either, I really would lose my mind and I’ve said it many times on the blog. I am extremely selfish in that way and it is ironically one of the reasons I don’t get a divorce even though I refuse sex (for now). And I won’t as long as the decision is mine, not all decisions are mine, which is where the subject gets hairy and what the discussion is about.

            I’m not sure why I’m being read wrong. But the difference in how we hear others speak was actually what I was interested in when I brought it up. It’s been interesting to see everyone perceive each character in completely different ways while watching the same thing.

          43. Nunya Biz
            It is interesting isn’t it? So many different interpretations while looking at the same thing as you say. It’s no wonder then that we don’t always hear or see things the same with each other here. I think it highlights the differences between the empath schools and cadres.

          44. HG, this has been a brilliant exercise in the demonstration of perspective. We talk about it on the blog often, but with the BLL polls, we see it in action.

          45. NunyaBiz, “I’m not sure why I’m being read wrong.”. Well that’s probably because I wasn’t doing a very good job trying to understand you better. I think I may have been more on the selfish side expressing how I feel or what I believe even though it may not have matched what you wrote. I apologize for that. I made an assumption regarding the Planned Parenthood. But I also wanted to express where I was coming from which I think strongly influenced how I perceived that scene in the movie. I was trying to say that my personal bias regarding that outfit may have made my reaction towards Bonnie stronger and why I related to Madeline more. I do agree that it is interesting how empaths come in all various colors even though we share the main traits. And it is evident in our comments and perspectives.

          46. “If I remember correctly, no one supported Abby’s bid to auction off her virginity and she is college aged so she is an adult.”

            That is the thing I was addressing with my comment, I didn’t see Bonnie support the decision at all, if I recall she was the only one who stopped it. The decision to do the project was made by an adult not even related to her who was raised almost entirely by someone else to make such a misguided decision. She stopped it even though she didn’t have any responsibility to do so.

            I thiiiiink I am voting M as a narcissist now, but I’m still not sure about Ed. And I was putting Nathan as a narcissistic normal, but I’m still on the fence about that one too. Like WokeAF is saying, I’d attributed some of M’s behavior to having been disappointed by Nathan being a narcissist and screwing them over, and that would be very disappointing because I would feel loss for myself and my daughter. Also, I relate to just being misguided on the whole as to the point of everything in life and really my mind’s only gotten better sorted to be less narcissistic in some areas by reading HG, though I think I have strong empathy and always have- I can’t quite figure out how to discern the difference, so my questions are in that area.

          47. Yes, NA, it is wild. It’s kind of what I was looking to uncover because I feel like a lot of life is walking through, navigating and responding to these different perspectives. Sometimes while trying to protect self or someone else. I can’t always sort it.

          48. MP, I like the MM character, and relate to some of her for sure. I really would have wanted to puke my way through that dinner.
            I wish i was Zoe Kravitz in real life. My husband lately likes to joke gaslight me, which i actually sometimes find amusing in between cussing him and he very seriously told me that Bonnie was the character hes most similar too.
            As if he has any groove.

          49. NunyaBiz, Actually to be honest I skipped a lot of the scenes to be able to finish all of the aired episodes before my trip so I may have missed some of the important scenes. I thought that the daughter was in high school, I may have skipped the part that said she is in college. When I come home I will have to rewatch it, especially go back to all of the Celeste and Perry’s sex scenes that I fast forwarded 😜. I didn’t recall Bonnie stopping the special project, I thought that she seemed indifferent but I do credit her for informing the dad. If it was me I would have done the same thing as I think that it is important for the parents to know but I would never say anything that might give the appearance to the daughter that I see anything positive about it like when Bonnie said at the dinner that it’s for a good cause. Madeline puking was indeed funny! The whole dinner was weird not just because of the special project but the whole thing about it.
            I think that reading different perspectives on the planned Parenthood issue is very helpful to me. Before this I think if my SD would ask me to take her there I would just decline and tell her that it’s something that would be better for her to do with her parents just because if I was in her parent’s shoes I would hope that the same consideration would be done for me even though I know that the child has a legal right to go there. However after reading about the other point of view, I would now ask the child first why she chose to ask me and not her parent and if I find out that there is real abuse I will consider taking her but if it’s just rebellion I would still decline and advise that it is something best done with her parents.
            It’s funny that your husband thinks he’s like Bonnie. I do remember my MRE sister used to relate to the nicest characters in movies even though she was definitely far from the character’s traits. They really have a skewed perception of themselves. Especially if they are Mid-Rangers I think.

          50. I don’t know, I’m on the fence again.
            But K, I can say that I don’t agree with the concept of Maddie’s character going to prison for child abuse. Defo “no” for me.

          51. P.S.

            nunya biz
            You don’t have to agree with me at all and, in some ways, I am on the fence, too. It isn’t feasible to remove all children from their abusive homes but how much child abuse do we accept as a society.

            Do we allow emotional violence but punish those who sexually/physically abuse children. It is a conundrum. Also, EV creates NPD children. It’s a mess.

          52. Oh yes, K, well said about emotional violence. I hope you don’t mind me waffling all over your comments, I suppose I am focused on yours because I find them interesting and actually they are the most persuasive to me. I appreciate your patience with me I am like this frequently on some topics. I believe my uncertainty in a few areas is appealing to certain N’s probably : ).
            But some areas I am certain.

            But thank you for your response it helps me understand where you are coming from. I do like when you remark on my differing opinion because it actually helps me think more about it, so please do.

          53. My pleasure nunya biz
            And thank you! I don’t think you are waffling; I think you are making an effort to think it through and it’s ok the be conflicted/ambivalent; I go back and forth, too. We are trying to make sense of it all and different perspectives can influence that. Logic is persuasive and it won’t steer you wrong.

            Self-doubt is one of our sins and that allows the narcissist to maintain their control over us.

            As long as you don’t mind, I will continue to comment on your comments. Please feel free to disagree with me and you don’t have to sugar-coat anything. Be fearless, speak up and don’t apologize.

            I have bucket loads of patience (usually) because I spent a lifetime dealing with narcissists and I patiently tried to figure them out to no avail.

          54. You are right, MP, the wrong person or boy can be persuasive, scares me. I find it difficult to manage balance with social media, messaging and sheltering, it is a challenge.
            I really hope she looks to me as a trustworthy guide. My boss has a very good relationship with her daughter, it heartens me.

          55. NA I had you pegged as a magnet or carrier. At the time of my consultation with HG, my saviour tendencies are well in check- I used to jump in wearing the cape often as a younger woman- but age and wisdom tuned that right down. I also played the role of carrier with my kids dad to a degree in my younger years.
            Since my forties, I’ve settled comfortably into my dominant cadre of magnet, with any carrier tendencies only applicable to my role as single mom.
            As far as I can figure myself out at least.

          56. WokeAF
            That may well be the case. It’s hard to peg it down because you can identify with more than one, but one will be predominant. I think it is helpful to know so you can apply the information given better, to recognize how you are identified by Ns, and why you react/respond differently than other empaths might to certain things (like conversations here for one). An unbiased consultation with HG to confirm my cadre is necessary.

        2. K, yes, glad you have bucket loads of patience : )
          I am glad you respond, sometimes your response changes my mind!
          You mentioned that BLL doesn’t adequately represent the damage, violence, etc.. that makes sense in terms of explaining what you are seeing in the characters then. Maybe like it is a “MMR Light” version, and I that is probably what I am struggling with, what with everything being fictional. Thank you for explaining.

          I saw you had said something about CBT and parenting classes. It got me thinking. I found CBT very helpful for altering some habitual and reactive behaviors. I wonder if it is beneficial for NPD people. My guess is it would be but would maybe need to be more intensive. HG says he has found some benefit in pro-social behaviors through therapy I think. It is amazing to me when something works, even a little. Regular talk therapy has never helped me. Maybe let me discuss and get some things out, but that’s it. Usually I find therapists to be at least somewhat narcissistic, so I usually feel they are telling me things they would never tell themselves (i.e. objectifying me, infantalizing me, patronizing, etc…)
          CBT takes that aspect of things out of it, it is behavior focused. I think if my mother had any input or assistance it could have helped me, but the wrong assistance would do nothing or exacerbate things. But god, just simple repeated statements encouraging cognitive empathy, like “does your child regularly feel bad?” as a point of thought might be helpful. Like, hello, your child feeling bad is not an endgoal in itself because they “deserve” it.

          For the MMR parents I’ve seen around (I have known several), I don’t see anything prosecutable *for the most part*. What I mostly see is confusing circle talk at their kids about values. Contradictory statements. Encouraging/modeling attention seeking behaviors, modeling their own world view of triangulation and scapegoating, etc… Trying to encourage dominance over introspection. And of course rule by negative reinforcement often times. One of the mothers has absolutely no idea what she is and I thought she had asperger’s for years. She seems to unconsciously favor one child over the other and bad mouths the father who finally got out. I’ve never known her at all to act violently and is otherwise a “Pillar of Good Behavior”. I think her husband punched a hole in the wall once though before he left.

          1. NunyaBiz and K, I do agree that the verbal abuse can affect the child very much and now that it was brought up, there might be those special reasons where I would consider helping the child without he parent’s knowledge. But I would have to investigate first and ask questions before I would get myself involved in something that in my opinion is sacred or important enough that is best experienced by the child with the parent/s. For example my mom used to call me a whore whenever I was not compliant or disagreed with her and she made me feel guilty or shamed whenever she’s able to tell that I have a crush on someone saying that I wanted to have sex already. I had what I now have think was a yeast infection when I was in high school and I think that I may have gotten it from the filthy outhouse bathroom that we shared with other people when we lived in the slums. At that time I didn’t know what it was that I had and was scared that it may be something that would permanently damage my ability to get pregnant. I hid it from my mom because I was worried that she would accuse me of having sex and being a whore so I just prayed for it to go away. It eventually did but it was really scary and I wish that I had someone to guide and help me through that at that time since my own parent was not mentally capable of that. But in cases where there is no abuse and the parents do love the child I would decline. And even if there is abuse, if I was asked to take a child to have an abortion I would decline because of my personal beliefs and I would even give my perspective on abortion and give other options. They have a right to get birth control and abortion but I also have the right to decline if something is against my own values. It is also possible that a child with loving parents who is in love with someone who is a bad influence and wants them to have sex will ask someone else to take them to have birth controls without their parent’s knowledge so that she or he can have sex without their parents’ knowledge. The problem with that is that birth control doesn’t always work, there’s a lot of user error situations especially if the person using it is an immature child. It can also be like a Pandora’s box opening up all kinds of risks for them once they are sexually active and secretive about it.

          2. MommyPino
            I understand where you, WokeAF and NunyaBiz are coming from and, in an ideal world, all children would feel safe enough to go to their parents to discuss BC and sex.

            But the world isn’t ideal and you gave us a good example of that re: your yeast infection and how your mother would react to it.

            Stick to your beliefs and values because they are important to you, but, ultimately, this was about what Abby wanted and everyone else was irrelevant. Abby is a separate being, who can make her own choices, and Bonnie was obligated to respect Abby’s wishes.

          3. Thank you K. But I disagree. Bonnie is not obligated to take Abby to Planned Parenthood. We don’t lose our free agency to do what is authentic to us because we acknowledge another person’s legal rights.

          4. MommyPino
            When Abby asked Bonnie for a ride to PP, Bonnie agreed to take her, therefore, she is obligated to respect Abby’s wishes for privacy. Anything different would be a complete betrayal of trust.

            The only individual that matters, in this scenario, is Abby; the parents are irrelevant.

          5. Dude – you helped a friend get an abortion at FIVE MONTHS. Now we could go into the rights of THAT child (fetus)..which at that point had not only a heartbeat, but a brain that could process the pain of physical annihilation.
            Was THAT child’s parent (your friend) perhaps irrelevant at that point?

            It’s all perspective.

            Can you not accept that you have a perspective , that differs from some other people’s?
            MMM cannot seem to accept that HER perspective on how to parent is different from other ppl’s. Does that make her a narc?

          6. WokeAF
            Of course I can accept that my perspective is different from others and I certainly hope that others can accept my perspective, as well. Neither is wrong, just different.

            I live in the US and Roe v Wade: The Constitutional Right to Access Safe, Legal Abortion was passed in 1973.

            The pregnant teen was my friend (we were both under the age of 18); I was not friends or friendly with her abusive parents and I didn’t know the father of the baby very well, but he didn’t want the baby and vanished after she told him about the pregnancy.

            The baby was killed with a saline solution, I think, then his head was crushed and he was dismembered and removed form her uterus piece by piece.

            MMM’s controlling and abusive behaviour is what makes her a narcissist and that’s why Abby left. MMM only has herself to blame.

            Abusive parents are completely irrelevant.

          7. Ok this is really educational for me, thank you for explaining your perspective ,
            And HG has determined you Standard, carrier cadre?
            Im really studying the cadres of empaths

          8. My pleasure WokeAF
            I did ask if she would consider giving the baby up for adoption because she was so far along but she didn’t want to because she was afraid of her parents.

            I am a Standard Empath Carrier and DEMB. If you search the schools you can go through the threads and this Poll may help you too.

            https://narcsite.com/2019/01/18/poll-what-are-you/

          9. Oh just to be clear:,I’m pro choice , I think – I mean I had an abortion and glad I did – would’ve been THREE kids with the baby daddy . Ugh. Three for him to abandon instead of two lol
            I don’t have any morals that I’m aware of that aren’t totally fluid . I’m a DLS so that’s pretty obvious I guess
            I’m pretty a-moral actually . Don’t subscribe to right or wrong other than my inner drives
            I don’t subscribe to “shoulds” and was engaging bc I’m trying to decipher some things.
            The differences between the schools and cadres etc

            I appreciate the lively debate

          10. K, Bonnie is also not obligated to not disclose to Abby’s parents that she took her to Planned Parenthood. Planned Parenthood is legally obligated to not disclose information to the parents without the child’s consent but Bonnie or any person that takes the child do not have a legal obligation. Whether that would be a betrayal of trust is a matter of personal opinion. I don’t do black or white and always consider several other factors present. If the child has loving parents and the child is about to make a decision that needs to be guided by the people that know and love the child most, I will be able to rationalize that perceived betrayal as being done for the child’s best interest.

            Also, some states still require permission from at least one parent for a child to have an abortion at Planned Parenthood. Although the show was set in Monterey, we base our discussion using California laws. And Abby didn’t get an abortion, she went there for birth control.

          11. MommyPino
            Correct, no one is legally obligated to inform Madeline, however, once Bonnie agreed to drive Abby, she had a moral obligation and a duty to protect Abby’s right to free agency and privacy, anything else would be unethical and an abuse of trust. It’s not in the child’s best interest to be betrayed and there’s always the possibility of detrimental consequences.

            A minor can petition a judge, if she does not want to get parental permission (judicial bypass).

            Loving parents are completely irrelevant. They have absolutely no say, no rights and they do not matter. In this scenario, the only person that mattered was Abby.

          12. where can we access this list of moral obligations?
            Is it only USA or global? If global, if the moral obligation conflicts with that country’s law, what do we do then ?

          13. WokeAF
            Morality varies for each individual.

            Imagine if you desperately needed help and confided in me, with the expectation of privacy, and then I ran around like an asshole telling someone about your secret and outing you, possibly putting you in danger, embarrassing you or making matters exponentially worse.

            You probably wouldn’t like that, would you, and you certainly wouldn’t trust me anymore.

            In my world, my friends can trust me with anything and they all know that. I am not a tattletale.

          14. NarcAngel
            Ha ha ha…damn skippy! I have several ideas in the works; it’s all covered and I will take it to the grave.

          15. Thank you for that link
            Hg had said that supers were rare, so I was wondering why there are so many supers

            Gravitate to this site I imagine lol

          16. My pleasure WokeAF!
            Supers and Greaters are rare so I am thinking that Bonnie and Jane may be Standard Empaths.

          17. Agreed I’ve got Jane also pegged as a standard but I have a weird feeling somethings coming up re her.

          18. WokeAF
            Exactly, I have to wait till the season is over to before I make my final votes on Bonnie, Jane and Gordon.

          19. K, morality indeed varies for individuals. You might think I am a tattletale asshole. That is up to you. I would think that anyone who would take my child without my knowledge to Planned Parenthood is a moronic asshole. So there!

          20. Mommypino, (& anyone else who enjoys deep thoughts & comedy)
            on the topic of rights, morals, etc; This link takes you to a 4 minute bit by the legendary George Carlin. It impacted me so greatly as a young adult – never saw life the same again. Enjoy 😉

            https://youtu.be/m9-R8T1SuG4

          21. WokeAF
            Thanks for the clip. I forgot how much he provoked thought while making me laugh. Rights are made up sums it up perfectly.

          22. K, we have a totally different perspective, that’s all. And I’m not trying to convince you to change yours. I understand your perspective.

            If a child comes to me for help to get an abortion or birth control and I decide to encourage the child to include at least a parent in the decision making, I believe that the parents are not abusive and it is for the child’s best interest. Things like that should be discussed as a FAMILY. I am not her family. I do care about people and have general love for fellow humans and real love for friends and relatives but I have to be honest, my love for them is not as strong or as deep as my love for my family. So to reverse that reality, my love and concern for a friend doesn’t even come close to how much my friend’s parent/s love and care about her. It is something that I strongly believe inside me that families should be strong and honored and be given autonomy and respect. I would never know a friend as much as a loving parent who raised her knows my friend. They will be the best people to discuss decisions like that to make sure that my friend doesn’t make irreversible actions because she didn’t get guidance from the people who knows her the best and understands her core as a person. Sometimes a child who was lovingly raised by parents would keep a secret like that from her parents because of fear of disappointing them only to find out that if they told their parents the truth their parents will accept their mistake and will move mountains to be there for them and help them. And most importantly we are talking about CHILDREN here. Oftentimes even adults need guidance, how much more a child? If a child comes to me for that and I declined to take her to Planned Parenthood and informa the parent/s, I would not do that unless I believe that based on the circumstances it is for the child’s best interest. The betrayal of trust is a last resort but it remains an option if that means I will save the child from a lifetime of regret.

            And I understand that you say it is about the child and everybody else is irrelevant. But when a child asks me to do something, it also becomes to be about me. And I will never partake in what I believe to be a murder of an innocent baby. And this is not to judge anyone else who has partaken or done abortion. I respect the different outlooks. But for me I have my own outlook and belief and I will never compromise that to help someone else. In my opinion there are two children in this situation that must be considered so it’s not all about the pregnant child. But I don’t want to debate abortion since I think that it’s pointless to argue about it. We are all entitled to our own beliefs and principles. And I repeat that I don’t judge others who believe differently.

          23. MommyPino
            We have different perspectives and neither is wrong.

            When I advocate for individuals, I have a duty of care and that means that I must protect and respect their rights for privacy.

            Teenagers are perfectly capable of making decisions on their own and they do not need their parents involved at all unless they want them involved. They are separate individuals with thoughts, ideas, wants and needs that are independent of their parents.

          24. Thank you K. We really do have different perspectives. And I’m happy that we have mutual respect. We will obviously do differently if faced in a similar circumstance but we both believe that we are acting for what is best for the teen.

            My perspective is that these are huge decisions for anyone to make, moreover a child. It is best for these types of decisions to be made with guidance from people who has more experience, knowledge about life and who the child is as a person and cares deeply about the child. Going back to me when I had what I’m guessing to be a yeast infection (I’m sorry if I’m grossing people out), if I was more mature at that time, I would have asked for one of my teachers or aunts to help me see a doctor. I have never seen a doctor to tell me what it really was so for so many years I was worried and unsure if it was indeed yeast infection or chlamydia. I just based those guesses from the books that I have read. But for so many years I was worried that if it was chlamydia it may have affected my ability to get pregnant. So many years where I feared that I will never be a mom just because I didn’t see a doctor. It was a decision that I made in my teen years which was unwise. That is just one. Even adults make decisions that they regret. That is all for my point of view. I love you K and thanks for the discussion. 💕

          25. K, I saw your other response to WokeAF and responded to it. I wanted to add more but I couldn’t find it anymore.

            I think that it’s one thing to accept other people’s perspectives that are different from yours. But when you say that you accept it and at the same time call them names then it makes your acceptance nothing but lip service and hypocritical.

            What WokeAF rhetorical question about moral obligations say is that morality does indeed vary per individual. Whenever you told me what my moral obligation is if faced in the situation that Bonnie faced, you are imposing YOUR moral code upon me. And I respectfully declined each time politely expressing why I would do differently. But for you to say that you accept it and at the same time call names is very insulting and petty. We can do better than calling each other names. We can discuss in a respectful manner. But when I’m called a name I do respond. I have to say O am disappointed and upset and also at the people who supported that. Disgusting honestly.

          26. MommyPino
            You are imposing your moral code on Bonnie and judging her for it.

            Abby has the right to get BC without Maddie’s consent or knowledge, Abby lives with her father and Bonnie and she asked Bonnie for a ride to PP. It really is that simple.

            If my teen daughter had asked my ULN’s wife (she’s an MMRN) to take her to PP for BC or an abortion, I would not be mad at all because it was my daughter’s decision to make, not mine. I am irrelevant.

          27. And also K, I would rather burn a bridge, have a friend be mad at me for what was perceived as a betrayal than let that friend make a mistake of her life. You don’t think that there are people who regret having abortion? Then you’re in denial! And if my difference of opinion to you and your friends here means that you cannot genuinely respect me aside from lip service, then I don’t want to talk to you anymore. You don’t have the right to tell people what their moral obligations are. A tattletale asshole if you so conveniently labeled me, but unlike you I really respect other people’s opinions without the need to call them names.

          28. MommyPino
            Be fearless, speak your mind and never apologize; life too short to do anything different.

            My friend never regretted having the abortion, we are still friends today and the only three people who know about it are me, my friend and the driver.

            BTW, I never called you a tattletale asshole.

          29. My pleasure nunya biz
            And thank you, I hope my comments are a good influence! Your comments help me with perspective, as well. We enjoy reciprocity here.

            BLL is fantastic but it glosses over some of the abuse or the ramifications of it. Not in the case of Perry and Celeste and I think Amabella’s anxiety is an accurate representation of abuse.

            It’s a little difficult with Bonnie because we don’t really see Nathan devalue her badly, however, he’s triangulating her with Madeline (playdates, BC & PP) and he blamed Bonnie for “The Auctioning of the Virginity” stunt.

            In an ideal world, NPD parents should attend therapy/CBT which may help mitigate the abuse that they inflict on their children and children could attend therapy to help them counter their NPD parents. Showing and teaching empathy in kindergarten might help. IDK. it’s a mess.

            Most mid-rangers are not violent; they usually slap their children/spouses. Slapping is mid-ranger; punching is lesser. Emotional violence is very bad but it isn’t addressed enough in the courts and people dismiss it or don’t understand how bad it is.

            There is a mid-range family that has produced three NPD children and one lonely empath. All the children are young adults and one of them drives while intoxicated and that is the result of EV.

          30. K, that is sad for the one lonely empath. Very sad. Being surrounded sucks, and I understand you should know.

            I think the parenting/cbt class idea is interesting and really imo, having gone through it, is that even MITIGATING the behavior somewhat would have been a relief to me. I also think empathy teachings would fit in kindergarten. I believe both of my children have a good deal of empathy. I have worried about my son because he gets so stubborn when he’s cranky sometimes it’s like a stonewall, but I just picked him up from camp and the boy leading him took the time to emphasize “He should come back. He’s a good kid.”
            And I’ve been told that by any teachers who seem to be aware (some are not and just see some external things and kids get pigeonholed/ignored). He may end up being staff at the camp next year in charge of some boys, he seems interested to do it and it will fulfill his high school volunteer hours requirement.
            Thanks for listening. I’m glad you are a passionate advocate.

        1. Nunya Biz: You can not lose all of your mind watching this show. You have to save at least some of your mind for our next Event, Chernobyl, remember? 🙂

          1. PSE, I don’t think I can stomach Chernobyl! This is my most intense level. Like a Nurse Jackie type drama or similar. But yeah, hearing everyone’s reasonable explanations is making my head spin, I just don’t know.

        2. Nunya Biz. Just make your observations first, to HG`s questions, without reading others` comments. That is what I did. And do not read the others, at all, if it bothers you. But your voice is important, if you can participate, in these Assessment Events: Just like when the detectives interview people that witness a situation, the detectives actually prefer that you did not talk to others first. The detectives even isolate witnesses as much as they can, because the detectives want the individual witnesses` unadulterated memories about the event, first and foremost. And after which , witnesses can talk with each other, and only if they choose to. And for the same reason, juries are even sequestered at times. So that they are not contaminated by outside influence, so to speak. So, HG is like the lead Detective. And he wants our individual assessments of these characters, for the best analysis, of what is being learned. So, I respect your decision of course, and the discomfort, but I just wanted to help you with some other ways to go about it, and to remind you that you need not read anything at all that is not helpful to you. And, yes.: I am being selfish as well. I like your postings. 🙂

          1. Ha, yes, PSE, thank you. Very nice comment I appreciate that a lot. I get involved with the characters, that’s why I don’t know about Chernobyl. Thank you for thinking about it : )

          1. PrincessSuperEmpath
            At first, I thought he was an empath; he’s not bad, however, he pisses and moans a lot.

          2. K. Hmmm….the evidence is building up…..I still perceive you do not like Ed. Lots of unflattering descriptions of him…should I list them? 1) You give him the following recommendations: His body language was somewhat predatory/off, like a peeper or a panty-sniffer. Also:
            2) At first, I thought he was an empath; he’s not bad, however, he pisses and moans a lot. Well, K. I dunno. I do not see the love. Maybe it`s just me.

          3. PrincessSuperEmpath
            Ed’s tolerable and I don’t hate him, however, he reminds me of a Debbie Downer. Now, Perry and Mary Louise, they are ghastly and I hate them both!!!

        1. MB: Agreed.. All men check out women, some just hide it better, but Ed is never topped off. He probably looks at women so much and so intently that his eyes are bloodshot, and that is probably the reason for his need of the Visine that his wife mentioned.

          1. PSE, I will be shocked if HG says Ed is a narcissist.

            I don’t care if my husband checks out other women. As far just enjoying the view. Hell, sometimes I’ll say, “did you see those?!?”

          2. PrincessSuperEmpath
            It was the way he checked out women that made me notice it. His body language was somewhat predatory/off, like a peeper or a panty-sniffer.

          3. I agree, MB, that sort of thing doesn’t bother me and I discuss my attractions on TV etc as well, as a matter of openness, not triangulation, I resent the idea that some think marriage equals death of perception. I agree with K on the peeper thing though and when something’s up something’s up. I’ve seen women innocently flirt with my husband or do it with almost a vendetta.

            I’m more emotionally involved with this character because he reminds me of my husband. It’s really easy to miss certain behaviors that can degrade things insidiously over time. My husband used to “peep” ME. Quite a lot and in many strange ways. But he would never directly let me know or tell me what he liked about me, I would just catch him and ask why he doesn’t show it. Seems like no big deal, but I consider it extremely harmful. I would tell him we’re already married and he’s allowed to “like” me.

            Of course the character and my husband are two different things, so who knows where this is going!

          4. NB, exactly! I’m married, not dead! And Hubby is very much alive too and quite the breast man 🤣

          5. Hubby is satisfied with my endowment, but that doesn’t stop him from looking at the scenery. N was obsessed with mine. As far as I’m concerned, you’ve seen one set, you’ve seen them all. (But I’m not steeped in testosterone!)

          6. Hi nunya biz…my hubby i catch watching me and tbh it gives me mixed feelings. Its nice feeling attractive but i also feel anger and sadness bc he doesnt know how to show or say how he feels in regard to this. Sexually hes very messed up. I love him dearly but if he wouldve been open years ago and told me he was attracted to me or expressed himself things would be so much different between us.
            I do find some of the sex scenes triggering in different ways. Triggering in regards to my hubby and also the narc. It triggered sadness bc these couples shared a passion(not perry and celeste) and ive never had that with my hubby. Triggering with the narc in that our sex is passionate and amazing but its wrapped up in npd and lacks any true love or substance.
            When i see a married couple like ed and madeline im envious bc they could have something really amazing!

          7. To be perfectly clear, I have no issue with people looking per se, and I have never had any jealousy issues. With see it’s the creepy stalker way Ed was staring from the shadows (not looking) and how he reacted to being caught.

          8. FYC, I knew what you meant. There can be normal looking and then there’s CREEPY looking. Definitely two different things!

          9. MB
            Exactly, there is big difference between normal looking and creepy looking.

          10. That’s a good thing, MB, because my editing was awful.😜 I started to write something longer, but I deleted the superfluous, but missed some. It should have said, “It’s the creepy, stalker way Ed…”

          11. CM I can only speak from my experience and perspectives and I would love an HG input on that sort of thing, but to me it is objectification. The way I view it is that I am empath and attract narcs who have low emotional range generally, cannot genuinely connect emotionally and rely on me for it while taking credit and do weird shit like silent treatments and projecting. Objectification can be painful I feel. HG says I have not insignificant contagion qualities and to me the chasm has felt like a vast dark sea of pain. I’ve remedied some of that pain with self love and autonomy and mediating my guilt for things beyond my control.
            Some of the sex stuff triggers me also, in both positive and negative ways.

          12. Hi Fyc….i jad mentioned early on in one scene ed looked at madelines eldest daughter in a creepy way when she was on the balcony but i thought maybe i read too much into it and he was showing concern trying to figure out what was going on in her life. Idk it seemed creepy but hard to know.

        2. MB: I look at HG Tudor`s assessment of Ed in this manner: 1) If HG says he is not a Narcissist. Then I was correct. 2) If HG says he is a Narcissist, then I am not surprised, because I like Ed. And, I will be reminded to always be resisting. Reminders are good. 🙂 3) If HG says Ed is Normal, then Normals are more tolerant than I realized, and that is a good thing. If HG says he is an Empath, then I am glad, because, again, I like Ed, and I am right, and he is not dangerous for me. So I am enthusiastically awaiting HG`s assessment of Ed.

          1. PSE, that is a great way to look at the exercise. I like Ed too.

            Note for those seeing Ed’s reaction to her affair as narcish: My husband is a normal. He had an affair 20 years ago. We worked hard and stayed together. HOWEVER: He told me at that time (and has maintained since) that he would not be able to do the same if the shoe had been on the other foot. He didn’t comprehend how I could accept it and move forward with the relationship although he admitted he was glad that I did. (That doesn’t make him a narc. That makes him human.)

          2. MB: I believe your husband. Many men will not tolerate infidelity from their women. As forgetful as many men portray themselves to be, their woman being unfaithful, will be an endless video track in their minds` memory. So, if one wants to hurt a man for whatever reason, yet still stay with the man after the vengeance is done, find some other way than being unfaithful, I would suggest, the next time around, if it is too late this time around. Hide his socks or something for a day or so!

          3. PSE, interestingly enough, I’ve never had the desire to get revenge against him for his affair. Besides, if I ever had an affair and he found out the identity of my partner, I would be concerned for their well being as well as mine. It would not be something I would do purposely to hurt him. It would be due to my own selfish DE streak. I wouldn’t feel guilty for being unfaithful, but I would be quite remorseful if he was hurt because of it.

      1. K. Now, Ed is a Debbie Downer, as well?l: I perceive that if I keep mentioning Ed to you, the charges against him will lengthen. 1) You give him the following recommendations: His body language was somewhat predatory/off, like a peeper or a panty-sniffer. Also:
        2) At first, I thought he was an empath; he’s not bad, however, he pisses and moans a lot. And now, a new one: he is a potential 3) Debbie Downer. K, I am so glad you do not dislike him, as yu say, because, if you did, the poor guy would never see the light of day. 🙂

        1. PrincessSuperEmpath
          Ed is fine with me; I don’t mind him at all. I knew two male MMRNs that sulked all the time and I got along with them quite well in the past, I just never understood why they seemed so down all the time. Now I understand them and I never hated them. It was Pity Play central.

          1. K. 2 Sulkers at once ? How did you manage it. Hahaha! My goodness. We deserve some medals to pin on our shoulders, that we can peruse on each other, and ask each other about. LOL!!!

          2. PrincessSuperEmpath
            ha ha ha…purple hearts for getting our asses kicked by narcissists during The War. We would be covered by them.

    2. FYC, Great point on Ed staring at women especially at Bonnie. I don’t know how Bonnie is able to tolerate that. If a guy does that to me ny involuntary reaction is turn my back against him. I had a doctor do that to me during the surgery center’s Christmas party and before I realized it my back was already slightly turned against him although I was still nodding and giving pat answers to the things that he was saying, my body was slowly walking away from him and getting ready to say goodbye in a polite way and with a polite smile.
      Also, my only point of reference for guys is really just my husband and he doesn’t stare at women. There was a time though in Vegas when there was a tall, blonde and gorgeous woman wearing almost nothing but tassels on her beautiful fake boobs and bikini that sparkles with beads standing on the street to be paid to have people take pictures with her turned my husband’s head involuntarily. It made me a little jealous but I understood that he couldn’t control it because she also turned my head and made my mouth open 😲 and I’m not even bisexual!
      Although I think that MB raised and excellent point about Ed being sex deprived. It did strike me as Ed acting like a dog in heat. It’s pathetic and gross but it’s also Madeline’s fault. 🤮. I personally think that it is unfair to stay married to someone and not have sex with them.

      1. “…Ed being sex deprived…acting like a dog in heat… It’s pathetic and gross but it’s also Madeline’s fault. 🤮. I personally think that it is unfair to stay married to someone and not have sex with them.”

        Hi MP, I am of the view that our actions are our responsibility. MMM is responsible for her actions and Ed is responsible for his. Even if Ed is literally not getting any, does this turn him into a creepy dude staring at a sweaty woman in the shadows? I don’t think so. Ed has other options.

        I agree Ed and MMM have a poor marriage. Ed says he sensed when MMM accepted his proposal she was not choosing him for the reasons he desired. This indicates he opted in for other reasons.

        With regard to ‘fairness’, again, it is Ed’s personal responsibility to live according to his values. He is not a victim he is a volunteer. He can resolve the situation in a variety of ways or divorce. Ed is responsible for Ed. Ed may stay due to their child, but he never states this. Instead, he seems more enmeshed with MMM. He is unhappy yet stays willingly.

        1. FYC, Ed loves MMM to pieces. He reminds me very much of my own husband. I’ve always said he loves me more. I’m willing to accept things that are less than perfect because the good outweighs the bad. I can absolutely attest that wild, passionate, urethra-shattering, sex isn’t a foundation that any marriage can be built on. There are things that will make me unhappy if I dwell on them, but who’s to say another partner would make a difference. I’m the common denominator here! The things that matter the most are accounted for. I have independence and freedom and somebody that has my back. All of this AND my guts aren’t in constant knots. There is certainly something to be said for that. When you compare the absence of that to the absence of great sex, which one is really the dealbreaker?

          I dedicate this to my husband, I am so grateful for him and need to tell him more often. This song sums up our relationship. Get your tissues. This one always make me cry. It IS genuine and I’m proof that it IS possible. Who the hell would trade this for urethra-shattering sex?

          My favorite line; gets me every time: “…you were born to fly, and if you get to high, I’ll catch you when you fall.”

          https://youtu.be/jhFT6SqarUU

          1. Hi MB, My point to MP was simply that we are each responsible for our decisions and actions.

            I have no doubt your description of your marriage is accurate (and I enjoyed the sweet expression in that song). Sounds like you both love what you bring to each other. Many people marry someone who loves them more or loves them less and both are happy with their decisions for their own reasons and find a way to have a loving relationship on their own terms. I do not see this same dynamic at work for Ed and MMM, but I could be wrong.

            While some people make reasonable compromises, many more make unhealthy compromises and remain in unhealthy relationships. This is one reason why it is so important to be clear on our values. We always get what we settle for (and we may never find what we hope for–there are not guarantees).

            To me, it seems Madeline and Ed do not have a genuine loving relationship, they have a fantasy bond (the outward appearance of a good relationship, but each are merely going through the motions). They need each other for different reasons and maybe appreciate each other for those things they fulfill, but deeper love seems to be absent. Again I could be misreading this or reading too much into this due to the process of using logic to dissect a fictional relationship.

            It seems to me, Ed loves the idea of MMM, not so much the reality and vice versa. They both seem dissatisfied with the relationship (hence indifference and infidelity). If he is a normal, this could be due to either being conflicted (he does love SOME aspects of their union), or a need to define himself/his life by the relationship. If he is a MRN, he would want to remain in a fantasy bond to avoid real intimacy and maintain his facade of a desirable man/family man.

            As for urethra-shattering sex, I’ll pass! Perry’s and Celeste’s violent sex scene were not ‘sexy’ to me. I note in S2, Celeste is finding strangers to fill the void. Definite issues with that one.

            MB, Would love to hear your thoughts. Thank you for sharing your personal story. Your hubby sounds like a kind person, and there is much about you for him to love.

          2. FYC, you always have such thorough and put together responses! As far as my marriage, it is not perfect, but from being here and from what I’ve witnessed with my sister’s relationships, it could be FAR worse.

            Re: “We always get what we settle for (and we may never find what we hope for–there are not guarantees)”

            This is the main portion of your comment that struck me. Part of me DOES feel like I “settled” for the first male that paid me any attention. (I’ve been with him since age 13.) I have this pervasive feeling that I missed out on something. The “something more” I’ve been looking for most of my life. Then, there’s another part of me that is grateful that I DID miss out on some of those experiences.

            As I get older, I’m working on appreciating the 50% that’s excellent and the 40% that’s very good and chalking up the last 10% to “that’s life”

            Thank you for the kind compliment.

          3. MB, Thank your for your very kind compliment.

            I don’t know if we are ever 100% satisfied. We can always be something more (healthier, stronger, older, younger, wiser, more wealthy, more simple, more responsible and success or more relaxed and unencumbered). We shift and evolve over time. What makes us happy at one point, is quite different than what makes us happy at another.

            I think real happiness can be found when we live our values and appreciate ourselves and others in full. I don’t think any one person or thing fulfills us. It is the greater combination of people and experiences that brings real satisfaction, gratitude and joy.

            Since no partner is perfect (and neither are we), there will always be 10% (or more in many cases) missing. If that 10% is not critical, then you have done very well!

            I also have a sneaking suspicion that elusive things you hope to find in life are within you already just waiting to be discovered and accepted.

          4. FYC, it is the greater combination of people and experiences. I love the way you said all of this.

            It hit me when I was reading this though. I don’t have all my joy tied up in my relationship with my husband. That is a piece of the pie of course. You know when I said he loves me more? I just realized, I’m 99% of his pie. (In his belief.) He doesn’t believe he can be happy without me.

          5. MB, Is his need of you for his happiness something you like or does that feel like a burden or overwhelming at times?

          6. FYC, I don’t deserve to be on that pedestal, nor do I like to carry the burden of being responsible for his happiness. I left him six years ago. He wasn’t having it. He would not give up until I came back “home”. I gave in and have resolved myself to the fact that I’ll be with him from now on. (Not a bad thing and I’m not complaining.) He truly did make some changes and they have been long lasting so far.

            My biggest regret is not going to university because he didn’t want me to leave. I got married instead. I knew in my heart that if I left, I’d outgrow him, find somebody else and he’d be devastated. I thought I had made peace with it, but it’s possible he’s paid the price many times over in resentment.

            As I said in another post, the universe has looked after me quite well. It could just have well been an abusive narc that crossed my path that day at age 13 instead of this man that thinks I walk on water.

          7. MB, You feel resentment or regret about your choice? I understand regrets (we all have them), but they really do inform us how to make better decisions and I love to learn and grow.

            I have no use for resentment. FTSSH! I make my choices and it is up to me to make different choices if I do not like the outcome. Resentment cuts you off at the knees. Resentment is like abdicating your life and choices to another. No thank you!

            Instead, as HG would say, seize the power!
            [HG: that signature phrase really needs to be added in the House of Tudor please.]

            It’s never too late to go to university. If you choose not to at any time, there are many ways to learn and grow without formal education. Bill Gates and Steve Jobs are/were both college dropouts.

            You have the same 24 hours today as you did many todays ago. The future is never guaranteed. So why not pursue what you desire? Seriously. Consciously choose your path. Your relationship can survive it.You have nothing to lose, but resentment.

            I know a woman who went to university after all of her children did and became a doctor. I know a lawyer who left his practice at the height of its success to become a nurse (at 50) and he loves it. It really is never too late.

            Life throws us enough wrenches in the works, no need to add any of your own. You are a bright and engaging person. You can do anything you choose (within reason). As an age outlier you can probably even get a grant. I promise you, more is possible than you realize and we will all root for you.

          8. It will be added, I am waiting on the designer he’s enjoying the sunshine.

          9. HG, Thank you so much for all of your efforts, we all appreciate you. Please also pass along my compliments to your designer on a job well done.

          10. Hi MB, I just rewatched a couple of S1 episodes and I can see what you were saying about Ed’s feelings about MMM. Maybe he is just a normal with narcissistic traits. I have no idea. I’m not good at this. It could easily be traits that are indicative, but not determinative of NPD as HG often says. I think Nathan may be another MRN (or narcissistic normal). The only characters I am 100% certain are Ns are Perry and his mother. The rest I am just guessing based on trait observation and deduction. I can’t wait for the final accurate answers so I can really learn to see the signs more clearly.

          11. Hi MB. 👋 I relate to a lot of the conversations on here that I read from you. Some of your personal traits you have been willing to share (very similar to mine) and your partner and the things you say about him. What empath category do you fall into?

            About the sex. I would wager that at times it is how you describe above with your partner but perhaps not consistent, which is what I’d guess is normal. I always thought that for a majority of us women its about our mindset and sometimes what leads up to the love making that makes for a good session under the covers.

            I think I read somewhere that one of your Ns in question is your mum not an IP?

          12. Narc noob, I’m glad you reached out! Don’t let WordPress stop you from interacting. Subscribe to the comments on the posts you comment on so you can follow them. Or, even better, subscribe to ALL the comments and watch your in box fill up! You can reply to any comment by clicking on the reply button from your email.

            Anyway, I’m glad that some of my comments resonate with you. It will be fun to get to know each other better.

            The “urethra-shattering sex” was a reference to the Big Little Lies homework Prof Tudor assigned. Definitely NOT a description of any sex I’ve ever had and don’t want to have. That was angry sex akin to rape in the series and not enviable in the slightest. Sex with my husband is much more conventional. After 30+ years together, I’m thankful that we actually still have sex and still enjoy it.

            The N that brought me to HG was a co-worker, turned friend, turned intimate partner over the course of six years. I had many mysteries surrounding the entanglement that HG cleared up. As my learning progresses, I can spot many more of them including my own father.

            The longer you stay, the more puzzle pieces you will find and lock together. Welcome Narc Noob. I hope you will stay. It won’t take long before you’ll have to change your name from Noob to Knower.

          13. MB, not stalking you, promise 😉

            I just read your post from last year on your own creature. Funnily enough I had also mentioned this to HG. I resonate with those feelings and the way we were *programmed*, if you will. If a N can’t change maybe the embedded mindset of an empath can’t either? That is not very empowering. The only advantage we have, in this regard, is our self -awareness and they don’t (or so HG says).

            I’d be interested to hear if you have done any work on your creature or ideas on further change? I’ll offer some of my own up also but sometimes my comments get lost here so the frustration keeps me from commenting much or getting involved further.

            🤗❤

          14. You cannot remove your empathic traits, but you can address your emotional thinking. I do not ‘say’ Lesser and Mid-Range Narcissists have no self-awareness, they do not have self-awareness for reasons I have made apparent and clear on many occasions.

          15. Narc Noob, if you identify with my toxic shame, first of all I know how it feels and I’m sorry you feel that way too. I called it my creature but didn’t really feel that was an appropriate name for it. I don’t think I ever found a name that actually fit. After reading about toxic shame, finding out how the true self is rejected, and the mechanics of how it might have happened in my own life, I do feel more free. I realized that I was living my life based on beliefs that were bought into by a child. Beliefs that were caused by parents that were ill prepared for the job because of beliefs they bought into when they were children. And the cycle continues. I can only hope that I didn’t unwittingly instill the shame of generations into my own children. When we know better, we do better.

            I think it was finally having the courage to turn on the closet light and stare the monster in the eye that took its power away. I’ve always been too afraid to do that and honestly never thought I could. The funny thing is…I didn’t purposefully do it. No therapy. It revealed itself to me organically and in a way that wasn’t intimidating at all. I was terrified that once I peeled back all the layers of what I’ve done and pretended my entire life to keep it hidden and “that” was all that was left, I would be nothing. Less than nothing. I realized that the layers ARE me and the belief about the creature inside were not true. My “true” self, my “lost” self, was a lie that I bought into. I became the woman that I am despite the lie, not because of it.

            I am not healed by a loooong shot, but I can honestly say for the first time in my life that I don’t hate myself. I can’t go as far as love and absolute acceptance yet and I may never get there. But then again, I never believed I could get past self-loathing either.

            Thank you for “listening”. I look forward to hearing back from you.

          16. Narc Noob, I realized I left out an answer. HG Tudorscoped me a Standard Carrier Empath. After reading ‘Chained’ it’s apparent that I have high number of codependent traits as well. Not enough to be full on CoD though. Standard is where I lie on the spectrum.

        2. Hi FYC, I didn’t say or mean that Ed’s behaviors were excusable because of being sex deprived. I said that it is pathetic and gross in which is why I am uncomfortable to be in a receiving end of that kind of attention. It is a different kind of attention that is not attractive like a narcissist’s seductive stares because this is arising from a biological neediness which is far from sexy but more about a sign of deprivation and desperation. I said that it is ‘also’ MMM’s fault which in my English as a second language way of expressing means that she plays a big role for causing it but I didn’t mean to say that she ‘is’ the cause or the only cause. Of course not all sex deprived husband’s act like him. I agree that we choose how to behave and we are responsible for our own choices. I still think that it’s unfair for MMM to not address his needs even though she was well aware of it.

      2. Lol, I cannot agree.
        People’s marriages go all kinds of directions. I’ve had people tell me I should have sex with my husband. Honestly I think that’s creepy and I’ve never reacted well.
        Maybe we will work on that, maybe not, but it’s certainly up to both of us as individuals to stay married or not whether I do or do not have sex with him. Sex isn’t everything. It isn’t nothing. It’s sex.

        I used to have sex with him all the time. He abused my trust in some ways. Possibly I did his. This isn’t fairy tale land, it’s my life. If he creeps on other women as a result, that’s on him. If he decides to pursue other things, that’s up to him.
        I honestly never understood the whole “marriage rules” perspective of a lot of people. It’s idealistic maybe. My husband is welcome to tell me he wants to go to therapy any day or have a heart to heart about how he feels.
        He won’t.

        I do agree that it is unfair to not fulfill someone’s true needs and also insist they can’t do that some other way. But as the show said, “cheating is one form of betrayal”. I am likely in the minority but sex seems less important than emotional connection to me. People like to say cheating is the true infidelity.

        1. Hi NunyaBiz, I can see how my statement can be provocative. If I were to be more mindful I would have put qualifiers. I do understand that marriages are not made equal. But in MMM and Ed’s case, why is she even married to a guy that she’s not sexually attracted to? It is hard for me to understand and hence I made a very careless statement. From my perception, Ed seemed to try to be there for her but she’s too obsessed with being annoyed with her ex and her ex’s new wife who doesn’t really pay that much attention to her except when she’s not nice to Bonnie or when it comes to their child together. She needs to pay more attention to her own family.

        1. I can honestly say that I have always enjoyed the diversity of thoughts and ways of expression here in this blog. Never have I seen a comment that made me gasp and clutch my pearls. We don’t all have to be alike or talk alike. I don’t owe anyone an explanation for choosing to refrain from whatever word or choosing to use any word.

          1. MommyP
            It was a joke because I have been accused of blaming people and saying it’s their fault (even though I didn’t use the word fault). I don’t wear pearls and pretty much nothing shocks me (so that was the humour part). You may not appreciate humour coming from me but you don’t have to take it personal. Once again, I have no issue with you.

        2. Hi NarcAngel, thank you for clarifying it for me. I’m sorry for misinterpreting your joke. I didn’t understand it so I looked up what “clutches pearls’ mean and the way I thought you may have meant was making fun of me for not using F words and that you think I am too demure or something. I was not aware that you used to be accused of blaming people and the f word is fault. This was the snappy comment that I apologized to you to when you sent me your condolences. I thought that you were so sweet to send me a thoughtful message so maybe I misinterpreted your joke. But I still didn’t understand what you meant until now. Actually I really like your sense of humor whenever I understand your jokes. 😅

          1. Mommypino,
            I saw your post on your mom and something happened before I could write to you and now don’t know where it is posted.

            I’m so sorry for the loss of your mom! That’s great that you were able to be with her and that you have your relatives with you! I am sending you a hug.

          2. Thank you Getting There. Thank you for the hug. 💕. I was lucky that I was able to take care of her even for just a few days. For me the most sentimental part was whenever she asked me to comb her hair and put oil in it and tie it in a bun. Every time I combed her hair I imagine her used to comb my hair and put it in a pony tail before going to school. I’m thankful I got to return the favor even though it was just a little bit compared to how much she did for me.

          3. I have not seen the post about your mom, MP, I hope your travels have been ok. I will catch up on reading and post there.

          4. Thank you NunyaBiz. The post was just a small mention of my mom passing away when Oracle said that she hopes I am well. The travels went well and I will bring her ashes with me back to the US. I do have lots of regrets but I know that it is my ET. For as early as I could remember she has always told me or asked me that someday when I am able to go to the US to take her with me so that we can live there together. I have tried to make plans several times but each time she acted up it scared me that she will make my life horrible in the US and I was unable to make her dream happen for her. That is actually why I am alive, she thought that my dad will take her to the US if they will have a child together. I do acknowledge in my head what she truly is but a big part of me wishes that she was normal and not so difficult and how wonderful it would have been to live with her in the US and have her play with my kids and take her to the beautiful places there that I know she would have loved. But I know that those thoughts are illogical but I am missing her and feeling bad for her and I really love her. But I am fine and will be fine. 💕

          5. MP, I saw that post to Oracle, I had thought there was another one somewhere and was still looking around, thank you for telling me. Of course it is normal for you to feel the way you do, I know you know that. I think maybe there are two ways to grieve the loss of your mother. I’m so sorry for your loss and and so glad you got to see her.

        3. “Someone said the F word!!! (and it’s not fuck).”

          I’m pretty sure it is about my response, which I stand by, for good and well thought out reason.

          1. Nunya Biz
            No, the clutches pearls comment was not directed to you in any way. I don’t even know what you are referring to. I have explained in a comment to Mommy P. There are a few posts lately that I’ve found misinterpreted (and not just mine).

          2. NA, I agree with you. It’s a bit like walking on eggshells in here lately. Didn’t we all want to get away from that noise? Let’s lighten the mood up in here! *throws purple and silver glitter*
            HG, turn up the tunes!

        4. Speaking of the f word, NA, I am at work and the owner’s daughter kept disagreeing with me about whose fault something was because I say it’s mine and she says it’s hers, haha. I need to get my daughter to hang out with her.

    3. Agreed! good breakdown on him.
      Seeing Renata (she’s. AWFUL.) delights me. She’s pure viciousness and Dern plays her so well. Watching her spew vitriol and the ‘I can’t believe it’s not butter!’ look of shock on the faces of anyone in her path is comic gold. Please writers give her ALL of the scenes. I’d love to see an analysis of Renata, too.. And Streep’s character (name escaping me now) she’s… SOMETHING . I need to watch her more to decide. This show is ripe with cluster Bs for the picking. Another stellar show to analyze next – The Affair. The characters on there- wow. Allison I couldn’t decide if she was a super empath, a borderline or a narcissist. Well I’m getting ahead of myself lol

  19. I have not voted but I have him pegged as an MMRN.

    S1:E2
    At the beach Ed points his finger at Madeline and says: I will not be anybody’s runner up; you need to hear that.

    This indicates a competitiveness between Nathan and Ed and Ed won’t take second place. (triangulation) He has to be numero uno.

    S2:E3
    Madeline’s infidelity is out of the bag and she and Ed are in couple’s counseling.

    The Counselor (a.k.a. Madam Shrink*) turns to Ed and states: We will turn to your betrayal in a minute. Adultery is one form of betrayal, indifference is another.

    Indifference is a bad sign and indicative of NPD.

    *That is what Madeline called the Counselor and this is indicative of contempt.

  20. I think Ed is a Standard Empath. He has some degree of dependency on his wife, who is controlling, triangulates him and withdraws intimacy from him (cheats on him but he seems to be in denial of it) but he also seems to be able to defend his boundaries and point the behaviors he does not like better than a codependent.

  21. Im onto the last epie in season 1 and hoping i can buy season 2 on itunes. Im all over the place with these characters. Ed i thought was a midranger bc he quite often is in “poor me” mode and never thinks hes enough but the more i watch there are reasons behind that which come to light with madelines affair. He senses there are voids in the relationship and that him and his wife arent as connected as hed like them to be. Hes the so called “nice guy” and feels hes boring to his wife. I put standard empath but he could be a saviour the way hes always trying to go behind the scenes and be the patch up man.
    I found it so funny the scene with him and nathan lol those two are funny around each other.
    He reminds me of ashton kutchner!
    There was a scene where madeline and him discussed their younger daughter not going to renatas daughters bday and he didnt seem very empathetic of jane and her son ziggy which is why originally i felt he was maybe a midranger but i now think hes a standard empath or saviour empath.
    Not sure how he will react if he finds out about madelines affair.

  22. Dearest HG: I say he is a Super Empath. Because, although he is very patient, If anyone pushes him too far, I believe they will pay dearly. I have watched season 1 and 4 episodes thus far. I plan to finish season 1 entirely by tonight, which is 3 more episodes, I believe.

      1. Twisted Heart: I like Ed. He just came into the marriage in a different way than his wife. He wanted it all in his marriage, including physical passion, and his wife wanted safety. He knows that bargains are made in relationships all the time, but this bargain hurts him even more over time, as he witnesses her having passion about just about anything in their world, except him. The infidelity is a crushing blow. Yet, he is still there for her. She needs to figure out a way to have passion for her own husband, since she likes figuring things out so much. Not once has he come home and she has any type of intimate surprise for him, or costume, or whispered suggestion…just nothing, but taking him to a place to hug strange people. That even she admits was a busted adventure. Yuk. Yuk. Yuk.

  23. I voted that he’s a Normal. There were times that he seems empathic but he doesn’t go out of his way to help or be involved unless it is about his family. There were also times when he was very cruel to Madeline after he found out what she did. Some of the things that he did and said to her were just to be hurtful and very narcissistic (triangulation, silent treatment, character assassination). It almost made me think that he’s a narcissist except for the times when he showed what seems to be genuine love for his wife. I think that an empathic Normal wouldn’t do those things that he did. An empathic Normal would be angry but he or she would take more proactive actions that aims on fixing the relationship or just withdraw from the relationship than stay and enact a prolonged period of punishing their wife or husband who already apologized and trying to make amends.

    1. I’ve only seen two episodes, I will watch at least three more by tomorrow evening. I can’t say yet, but I strongly suspect he is a narcissist. It’s hard to determine, but I think Madeline is a super empath. She drives me crazy with her narcissism though because her jealousy is ridiculous and clouds her judgement of things, she doesn’t treat her oldest daughter as a separate person enough imo, and she almost seems fuel-seeking with wanting to do a play with f-bombs. But I think ultimately she cares about what is right and fair and she gets narcissistic about it sometimes. I think she also has genuine empathy, where I think Ed’s is fake and Madeline can feel it. A couple of things Madeline said made me laugh, like “Everyone’s making me angry!” and I cried the first episode when sh told her daughter “people don’t tell you you lose your kids”, I have said that exact phrase before. I would like to see more hugs and “I love you’s” I think and I wonder still because she said “I don’t like to be touched” to the yoga teacher.

      1. I think Ed is one of those crazy-making narcs who acts like he’s the good one all the time. And I think Madeline is a super and she feels bad toward Ed but he wants her to.

        1. By the way NunyaBiz, what do you think of Meryl Streep’s character. Isn’t she horrible. Meryl Streep is doing an amazing job portraying her role. She must have a lot of knowledge on how narcissists act from being close friends with Weinstein. Is her character close to your MIL?

          1. I answered this comment, MP, but I think it ended up somewhere else.

      2. OMG NunyaBiz I’m glad you mentioned that. The ‘I don’t like to be touched’ did make me wonder if Madeline is a narc. But every time I start to suspect that she is a narc, I see or remember how she hates injustice and does something to help the underdog like a Super Empath with a cape and when she stopped her car to cry after learning of Jane’s past. Also when Madeline met Jane and told Jane that she knows that Jane is a good person because she has a knack for sniffing out good people, it made me remember the article ‘Narc Magnet’ and remembered my dad telling me that on the day that him and my MRE sister and my Normal or Empath SIL picked me up at the airport on the first time that they have ever met me in person, my dad told me that as soon as they saw me walking on the tv monitor that shows the passengers that arrived, my MRE sister told them that I stood out out of all of the people on screen. She told him that there is something about me that makes me stand out with the way that I was walking and the expression on my face. And now I think that it was her ‘empath radar’ that made me stand out in her mind. The article Narc Magnet makes me give that a red flag when somebody says to an empath that the empath stood out from the rest or they noticed the empath. Because Mid-Rangers are unaware that it’s their natural antenna for seeking fuel from empaths that make them notice the empath, they will usually say or admit that to the empath or to someone else because they probably don’t even understand why they took special notice of the empath. I do think that Madeline is very highly narcissistic but she has a lot of good things about her. She is extremely selfish and even the way that she carries out her empathic traits is very selfish. She might be a Super Empath indeed which if HG says that she is a Super Empath, it will now clarify a lot of my questions on what a Super Empath really is. It is not a hierarchy on which is a kinder or more empathic person, it’s more about the ability or tendency to dim the empathic traits to be able to have a battle with the narcissist. One example here is when Madeline has a battle against Renata for ostracizing Jane’s son. Madeline’s strong sense of justice will never tolerate such a thing so she competed by inviting the other kids to go to Disney on Ice. She dimmed her empathy over Renata’s daughter who was just a child who got hurt by some of her friends going to Disney on Ice instead of her birthday but Madeline gave more priority to defending the boy that was being ostracized and giving a message to Renata that what she did is not ok. In my opinion Jane has much stronger empathic traits than Madeline.

        1. Yeah, MP, I don’t see it as a hierarchy. The biggest reason I do not is because
          1. I feel plenty disordered (understatement)
          2. I don’t think attracting narcs is my favorite idea of a contest
          3. According to HG I am a Super/Carrier, which to me feels a bit like a conundrum of dissatisfaction and dissonance, so whatever

          In addition, like I said before, it is all spectrum. I have lower super traits than others probably anyway and plus the other schools and cadres I have balance it all completely differently than it would for someone else. I have also strong Standard empath traits that cause me to worry a lot and back down sometimes. I don’t think anything is black and white, anywhere on any topic pretty much, but certainly not on personality and reactions and interactions which are highly complex. Besides, if I could pick a school or cadre out of all it would be Magnet, which I am a small amount of.

          For episode 5, I really like Madeline (but I also like to watch all of the other empath characters). I disagree with some of her stuff and I have a different personality from her, but I feel so far she is empath. As far as your example with Renata I can relate to my recent story… my son got kicked out of a swim meet from the swim team we’ve been on for four or five years due partly to his association with a boy who I didn’t see anything wrong with. I was offended that the boy would be treated like that, and I won’t allow my son to be treated like that, so I told them off over email and pulled my kid out. A good portion of the reason is because I felt they were targeting the other kid and trying to make my kid out to be the “better one” in some way, but still being inappropriate all the way around. The other kid’s mom was upset, but kept him in for the season. I’m pretty sure my withdrawal caused a ruckus and rethinking of the whole thing and I did get an apologetic phone call, which I ignored. I’m pretty sure they switched approach, but I gave them an opportunity to do it sooner and they didn’t, so we miss out now, but to me it was worth it. It was a tough decision, but if I was that other kid’s mom I would have taken him out. I just cannot stand to see him targeted like that and she argued some but then rationalized staying.
          I feel I’ve done the CoD role though. I’ve no judgment of it, I feel I can see and relate to almost any aspect of those things. I also feel like a narc a lot, but I can see where some of my differences are. I dunno. I’m interested to see the results and the rest of the character development.

    2. Mommypino: I think he had the right to be cruel. If that little bit of not pandering to her in a touchy-feely way, after she had thrashed her body about intimately with that Director or Playwright or whatever he was, in a way that her husband intuitively knows she does not behave with him, her own husband, is considered to be cruel. But, he would have been more cruel, or judgement seeking, if that is considered cruel behaviour, if he had packed up and ghosted her the moment he knew, and served her with divorce papers on the grounds of infidelity and adultery, immediately. I have not looked into it, but divorce on the grounds of adultery does not appear to fare well with the adulterer. All that I do know is that I have seen movies, whereby men and women have paid someone to perform detective work to catch their spouse committing adultery, or even pay someone surreptitiously to seduce their spouse to commit adultery and to then record and document it all as evidence, all to negatively impact divorce proceedings against their spouse. And art often imitates real life. And, she should be thankful that she did not pass on to her husband a STI or a STD or another man`s child, or that she did not end up in a place like Planned Parenthood for a procedure, and so far, he is still with her and their daughter, and keeping the household intact. I did not find that he acted cruelly to her at all. I believe her when she says she will not make a mistake in the area of adultery against him, again. He just is not that into her, because of what she did. Cause and Effect. And feelings have to work themselves out, one way or the other, but not necessarily on her, the culprit`s, schedule. So, I saw no cruelty. But, I do think there is bad blood boiling…

      1. Hi PSE, I think that Ed had a legitimate reason to be cruel or mean to his wife. That is why I didn’t vote that he is a narc. I just voted that he is a Normal. I think that he’s very angry and punitive. But I think that an empath would not engage in a prolonged period of punishing and hurting someone who has already apologized and not engaging in a battle to consciously hurt him. But I agree that I think that it’s pathetic the way she treated her husband. She even tried to make a fool out of him by telling him that he didn’t hear them right when he overheard his stepdaughter say that she had sex with the other guy. The way that she strung the other guy along was pathetic as well. That is why they ended up in an accident together, she wouldn’t give ‘them’ closure or him clarity as to where he really stands in her life. She’s very highly narcissistic. A very selfish person. I admire that she fought for Jane’s son that was being ostracized by Renata and I believe that she had real empathy towards Jane. I just think that she is very selfish. But she has a lot of good points as well. I am interested to find out what classification HG will put Madeline in.

        1. MommyPino. All crimes are not the same. And because one forgives an act, does not mean that one has too accept the person who commits the act, nor stay with the person that commits the act. One can easily say, I forgive you, now I shall continue the rest of my life away from you. That option is available as well. Compared to what I have seen and heard and have been told in real life away from this series, her treatment from Ed, under the circumstances, is quite light. Actions speak louder than words, and action wise, he is still with her, thus far…. Adultery feels like murder to almost all men. Except for the few exceptions and outliers, it practically kills them.

          The inside of their woman`s body is like their safe place in this world. If they do not feel it is safe inside her any longer, it is a tall order to get that man to feel good about his woman any longer. Especially, if he loves her, and is not just using her. And even when using a woman, men overall still desire that safety.. Truth. Perhaps inconvenient, but Truth, nevertheless. If I am wrong about this, I welcome any and all male readers to help me out here.

          1. PSE, I completely agree with you based on my own personal experience. (You may have seen my comment re: my husband’s affair.) A woman has a more difficult time forgiving the emotional attachment aspect of the affair whereas the actual sex act itself is unforgivable by men. Maybe they can’t bear the thought of another man in their “territory”. (Speaking in an unconscious, evolutionary sense of course. I don’t consider myself anybody’s territory or them mine!)

          2. MB: I agree. They (Most men) do not like anyone entering their territory, if we call choose to call it so, which is the inside of their woman`s body, for whatever reason we or they rationalize or justify or ignore or protest, or even disbelieve this fact, They abhor it, and no matter how many times, nor how many women tell the man that they are supposedly in a relationship: you did it, so I did it, and I forgive you, so you must forgive me., and it is only fair…Hahahaha. It is largely not going to happen. He is disgusted. It is revolting to him Like it or not. (Most men). We live better in this life, the more we understand each other, realistically. And, to know how far we can all go, before situations become irreparable damaged

          3. PSE and MB, I agree with both of you on the difference between how men and women take their spouse’s infidelity.

            By the way, just a trivia which I think is related to this, if you look up the legal definition of adultery in California it says: Adultery is defined as voluntary sexual intercourse by a married person with someone other than his or her spouse.
            If you look up the legal definition of adultery in the Philippines it says: The crime committed by a married woman who shall have sexual intercourse with a man not her husband, and by the man who has carnal knowledge of her, knowing her to be married.

            So in the Philippines, it is only adultery if the married woman was the one who committed infidelity. If it is the married man, it is not considered adultery, they made up a separate name for it: concubinage.

            The legal definition of adultery versus concubinage is that adultery has longer jail sentences than concubinage. Adultery can also be proven through ‘circumstantial evidence whereas concubinage can only be proven by proving without reasonable doubt that the infidelity of the married man was done in a very scandalous manner and/or the married man has been sharing a dwelling with the mistress. A married man having a one night stand with a woman who is not his wife is not considered as concubinage. A married woman having a one night stand with a man who is not her husband is considered as adultery.

            Also, if the husband catches his wife in the act of having sex with another man and out of anger shoots his wife, he has a high chance of escaping jail time because he is considered to have suffered from ‘temporary insanity’ for seeing or witnessing his wife having sex with another man. The same temporary insanity defense is not available for women who catches their husbands having sex with another woman because the lawmakers in the Philippines who made the laws believe that it doesn’t have the same mental effect on women than it has on men.

            Women’s right advocates here on the Philippines have been trying to change those laws for a very long time but it still hasn’t changed as of now.

          4. Oh and also to add aside from the legal differences of adultery versus concubinage, the moral difference or moral perception difference also here in the Philippines is that the Bible says that ‘adultery’ is a sin but the Bible doesn’t mention ‘concubinage’ as a sin. Huge difference in societal moral perceptions with just the use of different words.

          5. MommyPino. I am aware that the JudeaChristian definition of adultery is any male that is not her husband being intimate with a married woman, and a married woman being intimate with any man other than her husband. Both are committing adultery. A married man being intimate with a SINGLE woman who, in addition, is not with another man in an intimate relationship or betrothal/engagement is NOT adultery. A single unencumbered woman being intimate with a married man is NOT adultery. A married man being intimate with another married woman is adultery for both. And a man can have more than one wife at the same time. Now, back to the United States law. Now, in the United States, he can have more than one wife, only by divorcing and remarrying, but not simultaneously. He has to constantly discard. Forced discard. With a slew of ex-wives in the background. I do not know how adultery is defined in the legal court system, overtly or covertly in the United States. But I know the historical and Biblical definitions above and therefore I use the word adultery and infidelity. I rarely use the word cheating, because of how misleading that word is. And U.S. law has its roots in Biblical teaching, and common law, largely. Feminism has called it cheating when a married man has dealings with a single unencumbered woman. It is clever to call it cheating, because it is not a legal definition and is therefore not investigated closely by most people, and probably is hinting at the wedding vow, instead of directing one to look up the legal definition of adultery in one`s country and region according to the law. And feminism, many people forget, is also created and pushed and supported by many powerful men, but with the face of women largely in the forefront. So, feminism is a duplicitous construct that has both helped women in some ways and has hurt women in some ways. And it has helped men in some ways and has hurt men in some ways. For example, Ivana Trump did not want to divorce Donald Trump over Marla Maples, but Ivana`s girlfriends and even some powerful feminist leaders stepped in TOLD Ivana to divorce him, She did. Donald did not want to divorce Ivana over the single girlfriend, Marla Maples, but it all went down. Public Pressure pushed for that divorce, in the United States. And that divorce hurt the children involved as well. In general, I believe feminism has helped women more than it has helped men, in the past few decades. What definition of adultery has standing in the court systems in fact, I do not know. Men make a mistake in making vows when they wed that they will forsake all others, when that is a modern concept of marriage. Women feel forced to enforce that vow and leave or divorce the man if he then breaks that vow, even if he only dealt with single and not other married women. If that wedding vow is then forced upon the men during divorce court, it is mens` fault for making such a contract, if the wedding vow is actually a legal contract. And it is the women`s fault as well if they know the historical definition and biblical definition of adultery, but pretend they do not and thus take advantage of the man, if he is unaware. I do not know if wedding vows are legal constructs, in the United States, or if wedding vows are viewed on a case by case basis, and secretly dependent upon the formal knowledge of the involved parties.. Women should teach their sons about all this, especially, unless for the notion of what they believe is the greater good, they allow their sons to believe that one woman forever, after marriage, is a vow their sons should make, and face the negative consequences if they fail to live up to it , and even lose their property and children, I guess. History, Beliefs, Socialism, Politics, Reproduction Management, Feminism, Pride, etc. all in one pot. If I had a son, I would teach him all this and encourage him to make a more realistic vow, and even have a prenup. Women usually have an advantage in divorce court, but I would still teach this to a daughter as well, and advise her to make a personal vow with her potential husband and even have a prenup. I hate the word, prenup,and prefer the term, wedding contract. If I had a son or daughter, I would teach them both that a married man having relations with a single woman is not adultery, and for them to make their wedding contracts based on historical biblical, and not just modern information. Then it is up to them to make their own wedding contracts, to the best of their abilities. But, most people do not know, or pretend to not know these other definitions. Everything is summed up as cheating. And, everyone has to pay the price. Even the children that are involved. And everyone cares about the children, yes?

          6. Hi thank you PSE. I agree with most of what you said and understand your perspective.
            Hmmm, this is my personal thoughts on this. I like the legal definition of adultery in California compared to what we have in the Philippines. You are very wise to bring up the Judea Christian definition as that was I think the source of the law in the Philippines regarding adultery since this is a very Catholic country although it’s not a theocracy, laws are heavily influenced by the Catholic religion of the huge majority of the population. However when we start to talk about legal rights of people, I think that the religious beliefs should be removed from the laws. In all honesty, I actually believe that marriage should only be a religious ceremony with no legal ramifications. And the aspect of adultery should also be decided based on the specific religion that the concerned parties belong to. I think that people should be able to legally bind themselves as domestic partners (however they want to) and they can stipulate in contracts how they would want to deal with cheating and how that would affect their partnership and the other aspects such as their properties together and children or pets etc. I think that marriage should just be plain ceremonies while the legalities of the union should be entered to and designed separately by the people involved. That way nobody encroaches in people’s religious freedoms and no religion encroaches on people’s individual rights. Just my personal opinion.
            Regarding feminism, I don’t regard myself as one. I don’t want to belong in a box where I am pressured to think in a certain way to conform to that group. I want equality but I also want acknowledgement and respect of our differences.

  24. I’d say he’s a normal. He acts narcissistic sometimes and empathic sometimes. He doesn’t seem overtly emotional In the positive or negative range..even when cheated on.

    1. Jessrnny: From my observations of normals, they will immediately leave or toss out a woman that commits adultery in the marriage, on one end of the reactionary spectrum, and on the other end, they will kill or have the woman and/or her `lover` killed. Let`s not forget about these scenarios beyond what goes on in this series.

      1. Ed does end their relationship and leaves. He doesn’t stay away. Seems that he loves her and would rather exist with her than apart. But his immediate reaction was to leave.

        1. Jessrnny: What episode does he leave? I am at Season 2 episode 5 and he is still there. How many episodes are in season 2??? I thought I was up to date…. If he leaves, he has the right. It is a personal decision, but he has the right legally and morally to leave.

          1. After he finds out he says “we’re done.” He leaves. His initial reaction was to leave. He returned.

  25. Ed is a narcissist. S:2,E:4- Projects onto and criticizes Madeline constantly, gives her the silent treatment, triangulates with the children, withholds sex, gets into a fist fight easily, sullen all the time, and his comments don’t make sense -like about the pretending going on at a costume party.

      1. Hi Chihuahuamum,
        Maybe so, I don’t know what happened in season one, but he seems like a lesser to me.

    1. Kel, I am not caught up, but I agree. I think he’s a real dick so far and this is what drives me nuts in marriages is the narc makes everyone else look bad. He seems very emotionally withholding but she’ll get the blame for it. In episode two he could have easily comforted her about her past losses with Nathan, but he didn’t and left her to feel bad even though she tried to reassure him but then he used her very explanation to make Nathan feel bad. He wasn’t willing to give her the satisfaction of agreement or understanding, but used it later as though he did.

      1. Hi nunyabiz….funny username btw 😄 i keep going back and forth with ed he seems to do the whole pity play(midranger) a lot but at the same time he does go behind the scenes to patch things or do damage control. Its hard to say tho bc dirty angels can do that as well even if they dont have an audience it makes them feel superior being the “big” one. I do think hes very insecure and senses he was a consolation choice. I think him and madeline are just so different and he takes that as not being interesting enough or passionate enough for her. In reality sometimes its better with two different people as far as energy levels and temperments they can balance each other out. I do think she loves him but shes also has a high energy and needs to put more of that energy into her marriage and less on the outside world.

        1. I understand where you are coming from too, CM, I watched four episodes and changed my mind a few times already. He is funny and comes across very sweet. I just suspect, but I also see him as fairly self-absorbed. Like the costume thing, it seems about him and not about romancing her. It’s maybe self-amusing? If it turns out he is N I think it speaks partly to why people don’t always leave, it gets complicated and there’s so much involved. But maybe he isn’t, I know I have to watch more to see what happens.

          I just love all the actors, he is a good actor and I’ve always been a Laura Dern fan. I’m trying to hold back a little on these threads (reading and my opinion in the moment), I think I will be done with season 1 by tomorrow night. HG came up with a good one, I’m so into it.

          1. Hi nunya biz…yes ive really enjoyed this series and am very glad HG brought it to his blog!
            Looking forward to reading more of your thoughts on the characters 🙂

          2. I’m glad I got alerted to the show for sure, it’s very fun. I finished season 1, so I feel more caught up to what is happening and to have some opinion : ) I haven’t met the mother in law yet.
            What you said about two people balancing each other out I think is very much true. Starting S2 tonight.

  26. Madeline’s husband -Ed .
    Voted: Empathic but not an empath

    Had some trouble figuring out if he was an empath, or just empathic
    Very tricky for me.
    Seems intense sometimes , and defin very sensitive and empathetic, repulsed by deception, and picks up on shady ppl and behaviours. Went to therapy but doesn’t seem to Take on the role of “fixer”.

    It was more of a process of elimination for me , he has some carrier tendencies , but just doesn’t fit the bill for full on empath that I can tell. Perhaps this is the make version of an empath and I’m not educated enough on it, nor have experience with it that I know of.

  27. From what I’ve seen so far clearly an empath. I don’t imagine CD. Not a contagion as he doesn’t show any distress at Ziggy’s situation, just a little annoyance about Madeline talking about it so much. He cares for Madeline deeply and wants her to reciprocate. I would imagine a normal wouldn’t put up with that too much. He is reasoned and well balanced to an extent, but clearly hurt by how Madeline treats him.

    I’m going to opt for standard at present. I don’t see him as the type to go supernova, but I’ll watch out for that…

    1. Alexis. I can see him going Super Nova. Those quiet peaceable types often have built up passion that they constantly knowingly and purposefully restrain. Still waters run deep, as the wise proverbs say. Let`s see what the writers have in store for us, regarding Ed.

      1. It’s so much harder assessing through a limited amount of observation. Would you agree PSE?

        I need to feel the reality of their reactions and response and look out for those little ‘tell tale’ signs and feel that first silent treatment. Some are so damn obvious from the outset whilst others need a bit more work. I’m really enjoying it though and reading through the differing/ similarities in opinions though. I just need to work out how I can watch series 2 now!

        1. Alexis: Do you have a problem locating season 2? Just type into Google: How to watch Season 2 of Big Little Lies in __________? or type: How to watch Season 2 of Big Little Lies for free on-line in ____________? And just fill in the blank with your personal location, and see what options come up for you.

        2. Maybe I’m surrounded by a whole bunch of narcs and empaths and don’t realize it, but most everybody seems normal on the series to me. I have a really hard time judging folks because it’s just not something I do. I’m a live-and-let-live, you-do- you-and-I’ll-do-me kind of person.

          Really, the only people that I am 100% on is Perry is a narc (I’m going with LMR) and Madeline is a Super Savior Empath, 100% sure Ziggy is an Empath, 80% sure Jane is an Empath of some type.

          I see no narcs but Perry.

          Everybody else seems like normals. Maybe my “normal” is fucked up?

          (I’ve watched Season 1 all but the last episode. Maybe more will be revealed moving forward.)

          There is also the possibility that I’m not very good at field work. 😂

          1. Goodness I need to rewatch again. Everyone is saying that Madeline is a super empath. I had her down as a mid range – angel with a dirty face. The sort of person who always wanted to be friends with me and I would previously have readily accepted. That said I did warm to her a little as the series went on. Hmmm

          2. AS2016, I thought she was a narc on the first episode, but it became clear to me that was not the case fairly quickly. SEs are highly narcissistic and can be tricky. Watch again. She demonstrates much empathy.

          3. I will definitely watch again. There were just a few suspect things too, e.g the way she made friends with Jane really quickly. But on the other hand she never seemed to triangulate her friends with each other and does rush to help. But I’ve known narcs to do thst too because they want to be involved in the drama. She keeps those she doesn’t like constantly painted black. But then I do that to a certain extent, If someone is a bitch lol. I need to understand more about SEs. Cannot wait for HG to give his views. It’s killing me!

          4. I actually know a MR female narc. They’re poisonous , you can feel it coming off them even when they’re well and truly presenting the facade. The cognitive empathy is more like Mary Louise- carefully spoken. They flatter their friends incessantly when they’re painted white – there’s no REAL talk , no depth.
            Madeleine defin has narc traits but she’s nothing at all like the female narc I know –

          5. How many characters are we voting on? This could take a while. Patience is not a virtue I possess!

          6. MB
            The original post shows 10 pics. I assume those are the targets but could be wrong.

          7. Thank you NA. You are so observant! My impatience clouded my powers of observation. Looks like it will be a while. In the meantime, I’ll be practicing my patience.

          8. Mb…i also see madeline as a savior super empath. If she were a midranger she wouldnt of taken jane and ziggy under her wing and stood up to renalta. She also would not be concerned about losing her daughters and trying to connect with her eldest daughter. Shes definitely an empath!

        3. If as some suspect that Ed is an N and Madeline an SE. I just don’t see much of this dynamic going on?

          ‘The Super Empath will remain, wanting to fix the narcissist, exhibiting again the same empathic traits of others on the empathic spectrum, but again being made of sterner stuff, their descent towards numbness and malfunction is far slower than that of the empath. The Super Empath will keep providing the fuel but deteriorates at a slower rate.’

          Not stated on S2 yet though…

          I have also seen N parents try to ‘connect’ with their children, much of her connection is more about controlling her and ensuring she achieves what Madeline didn’t. We all want our children to achieve more than us, but there are ways and means..

          HG pllllllllllleeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaassssssssssseeeeeeeeeeee hurry up and post the others. I will get down on my knees and beg!

          And you did utter those three little words today

          1. Gaaagh not sure which I prefer, to know the answers ASAP or your authoritative yet gentle stance

          2. I had suspected you were releasing the characters upon there being enough evidence to make a determination, is that correct HG?

          3. I am releasing the characters in the order I have determined and at the rate I have established and adhere to.

          4. MB I just can’t see Madeline as anything but an N. She really sees her kids as an extension of herself.

            And I can hear her utter lots of HGs ‘little acons’

      1. When you first posted about Bonnie I had a bit of a blonde moment and thought you were asking about Zoe Kravitz not a character from a series. Was about to respond that she was an empath who recently married an N and has a father who is also likely one of your kind.

        I don’t do tv series, it does my head in having to wait for the next episode. I’m too impatient.

        Great idea though! Next game RL examples…?😉😁

        1. Very interesting Narc Noob
          I’m a bitsy similar but great exceptions too. A series needs to have one character’s or couple’s name, or my heart is just blank. One hero.

          Jane Eyre – Brilliant
          Sense and Sensibility? …. (loud silence)
          Emma – loved her!
          Downton Abbey? – Forgot it after one minute.
          Game of Thrones? What is that.

          Sherlock? He’s my Main Man!

          I guess my brain is warped around the Name of One,
          for some funny reason.

          1. cb and Narc Boob. I have a nagging suspicion that I am missing something by not watching Game of Thrones. I saw an ad and it looked so dreary. What if we are missing something with that series I loved Downton Abbey, when it came out, but when Dan Stevens abruptly decided to leave the show, and the writers whipped up that weird death to cover up his leaving, I stopped watching.

        2. Narc Boob: You can watch all the episodes of TV series these days at your own pace, once they have concluded, or even binge them. So, Big little lies is already out, and so you can watch back to back now, instead of waiting week by week. I just finished all of Big Little Lies this week, Season One, and I just finished Season 2 all the way to episode 5, all according to my timing.

          1. PrincessSuperEmpath

            Game of Thrones? now that’s a typical extra peeve for me.

            Scenes where people are

            1) toned, fitted and dressed, boobjobbed, tanned, showing big guns from gym, extra everything, body shimmer oils, actors doing all to be catlike Supersexy

            2) standing looking serious, talking slowly, solemnly …

            Idk, give me a break.

            1) & 2) just don’t go well together for me. The combination feels a wee stiff.

            But since many millions were hooked, I also get the feeling I should watch GoT.

          2. MP: hahahaha. Narc Noob. Not Narc Boob. Sorry. My bad. Maybe that is why she did not respond. My goodness. I did not notice the error.

          3. Thanks for the laugh PSE! We now know where your mind is at 😉😆

            I am tempted to watch, at least I can join in the conversation that way. If I don’t like it, I can bail.

            Apologies but I don’t always see the comments and I’m an empath so I wouldn’t ignore you – unless of course you’re one of those? 🤣

        3. Narc Boob: I noticed that the casting of Big Little Lies, seems to cast the actors according to how they usually carry themselves in other roles. I think that because this series is cast this way, the actors can easily and swiftly learn and play their roles more accurately, and therefore the series packs more punch than a series usually does in so short an amount of time of just 2 seasons, and not too overly many episodes. The casting of Witherspoon`s teenage daughter had me cringing. Were we really so awful when we were that age? I say……..yes. So sad. Yes, I believe Zoe Kravitz lives a similar dynamic in many elements of this series. It was an easy casting. But, because film and books often have artistic differences, I wonder if the same Bonnie character and family dynamic is in the Book, or just inserted in the TV series???? If anyone has read the book, is the portrayal of Bonnie and her race and her family dynamic true to the book???

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